1 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:17,640 Hello, everyone, welcome to the latest episode of Hardwood Numps. This is 2 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:22,359 Outam Promlan here with my always fantastic co host, Dan Value, and we 3 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:29,120 have an agonizingly prepared episode for you today because we're going over the all NBA 4 00:00:29,199 --> 00:00:33,039 teams first teams, second team, and third team alike. And then because 5 00:00:33,039 --> 00:00:36,479 I can't help myself and made Dan go along for the ride, we even 6 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:39,759 went beyond the third team because we just we want to provide that content for 7 00:00:39,799 --> 00:00:44,640 you. But this is an impossible exercise, even though the NBA ultimately made 8 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:48,640 it a little bit easier with some of the weird position allowances. As a 9 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:51,520 side note, we should just get rid of positions altogether, but because we 10 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:55,039 still do have the restrictions with two guards, two forwards in one center, 11 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:58,159 we do have to abide by them. But again, the league did make 12 00:00:58,159 --> 00:01:02,600 it a little bit easier by making Joel and Nicola Yokich eligible at both forward 13 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:04,079 and center. Spoiler alert, we're both going to have them on the first 14 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:07,200 team. So things like that do make this a little easier, but it 15 00:01:07,239 --> 00:01:12,799 does not make the overall process any less painful, because ultimately, when you're 16 00:01:12,879 --> 00:01:17,040 forced to pick five people on your first team, five on your second and 17 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:21,079 five on your third. You're going to leave people out, so we apologize 18 00:01:21,079 --> 00:01:25,719 in advance for anyone we offend. We offended ourselves doing this, So it's 19 00:01:25,799 --> 00:01:29,359 tough and bear with us because a lot of thought went into these before we 20 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:32,799 go into any of the All NBA selections. Though, I have to ask 21 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:36,359 Dan, how's it going? I am spectacular. Just squeeze, get the 22 00:01:36,359 --> 00:01:41,000 shoulder work out before we started recording. How about yourself? I'm feeling good. 23 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:42,640 I feel like that was a good intro. It was a good intro 24 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:47,359 right to the point. The only thing you forgot is to remember to subscribe 25 00:01:47,359 --> 00:01:49,040 to the Hardwood Nons podcast that you were listening to, especially this is your 26 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:52,959 first time listening. If you've already done all those things, following us on 27 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:56,640 Twitter, ig, TikTok, all those links are in the podcast description, 28 00:01:56,959 --> 00:02:00,640 join our discord, subscribe to us on YouTube. But also, if you 29 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:02,239 have done all those things, like I said, help us get the word 30 00:02:02,239 --> 00:02:06,640 out. Retweet our promotions, word of mouth, tell your friends, family 31 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:09,199 members, randos on social media, or at work that you know about us. 32 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:13,560 If anyone you know likes basketball, just throw them this podcast. Help 33 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:16,759 us grow the community. That is already awesome. We're just trying to make 34 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:22,639 it awesome. We're getting really close to that thousand subscribers on YouTube that we 35 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:27,879 need for monetization. There my shameless endorsement of it, it yielded like thirty 36 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:30,280 followers, thirty subscribers, So I am curious how many came from that. 37 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:35,400 Because we had viral videos for you take it away from me. They were 38 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:38,000 all you, all nine hundred and thirty forty four subscribers on you. I 39 00:02:38,039 --> 00:02:43,759 get no questions asked for mailbacks, So I'm taking this victory. You can. 40 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:46,080 I saw you. I was dealing with some others. I was actually 41 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:50,000 at a wedding that I thought I didn't know as a wedding. When you 42 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:53,680 sent that tweet, I was so flustered. I eventually ended up like bumping 43 00:02:53,719 --> 00:02:54,919 it as well, once I had a minute to breathe, because I was 44 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:59,680 at a surprise wedding. That's a that's a difference story we don't need to 45 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:05,639 get into. Let's get into the every day. Yeah, but congratulations to 46 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:08,439 the newlyweds who just so happened to be my sister and her husband. I 47 00:03:08,479 --> 00:03:10,840 just didn't know that she was getting married. That's not weird at all, 48 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:15,680 right, that she didn't tell No, it's totally normal. Uh so first 49 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:19,400 team. You already alluded to the Yo kitchen mead thing. They're probably gonna 50 00:03:19,439 --> 00:03:23,919 make them. I haven't seen anything definitive whether they're gonna make them eligible at 51 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:27,879 one of them. If last year was if I've seen anything, I was 52 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:30,280 off the grid for a little bit. I was traveling, so maybe I 53 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:35,879 missed it. I vacillated on whether you should include them in the follow rankings 54 00:03:35,919 --> 00:03:39,439 because they don't play forward even anything functionally. Yokich Kevin Arnovitz on the Low 55 00:03:39,439 --> 00:03:43,400 Post a few weeks ago, I was talking about that Yokich is more point 56 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:46,800 guard than power forward, if we're being actually honest. So I'm with you, 57 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:51,960 I'd like to get rid of positions. I feel too icky leaving one 58 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:54,599 of them off the first team to care about diplomacy there, and so if 59 00:03:54,599 --> 00:03:58,840 you're gonna let me put and I would if i'd have picked between the two, 60 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:00,400 Yokich is the center, I'm gonna put it, beat it forward. 61 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:02,919 If you're the way I look at it is, I think the same as 62 00:04:02,919 --> 00:04:05,000 you. Where it's like, if the NBA is gonna let us we're trying 63 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:09,240 to get the best players we can on these teams. So I do wish 64 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:12,080 I had more information though, because I might have messed with how I did 65 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:14,680 some of the rest of the teams. Like DeRozan is a forward, clearly 66 00:04:14,759 --> 00:04:17,279 like he should be, but if he's eligible guard, I might have done 67 00:04:17,319 --> 00:04:21,839 some like Shenanigans because I that's just spoiling later on in the discussion. So 68 00:04:21,959 --> 00:04:26,120 that's the one thing where it's like I didn't fudge positions all the time, 69 00:04:26,439 --> 00:04:29,519 so it makes me wonder if I should fudge them here. Ultimately, they're 70 00:04:29,519 --> 00:04:32,759 both gonna make no worse than all second team. I think it impacts Yes, 71 00:04:32,879 --> 00:04:38,279 there's the cachet of first team all MBA, but that decision impacts Rudy 72 00:04:38,319 --> 00:04:41,560 Gobert in my book, more than anyone else, or maybe bam Adebayo if 73 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:44,680 you had him. Is your a third team big, because I think the 74 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:48,199 top three bigs this season are sort of cemented in stone at this point. 75 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:53,839 So my first team was my MVP ballot. I had Yokich, Embiid, 76 00:04:54,439 --> 00:04:57,519 Janice, don Chich, and Booker, So don Chitch and Booker were my 77 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:01,439 guards. Imbid and Yannis were my forwards. And yo was my center you 78 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:03,959 had. Do you want to go through your ballot before I go through what 79 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:08,120 could be the potential problem spots for people? Yeah, I had the exact 80 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:10,800 same thing. I mean, we had the same top five MVPA ballot. 81 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:15,120 We had a long discussion about that on the episode before this one, so 82 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:18,680 I have the same thing. And just to follow up on the eligibility question, 83 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:25,399 Mike Singer of the Denver Post was told on March twenty six, small 84 00:05:25,399 --> 00:05:28,439 note, I'm told that both Nicola Yokich and Joel and People be eligible at 85 00:05:28,439 --> 00:05:31,560 both forward and center on the All NBA vote. And then Mark Stein clarified 86 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:34,800 that this is the third season in a row that they'll both be on the 87 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:39,839 ballot at both positions. And then he said, as succinctly as I can 88 00:05:39,879 --> 00:05:43,920 sum this All NBA team stuff up after checking with the proper authorities, if 89 00:05:43,959 --> 00:05:47,480 embiad Yoki gets more center than forward votes, neither can make first team as 90 00:05:47,519 --> 00:05:50,879 a forward. No matter how high they're total, players get placed at the 91 00:05:50,879 --> 00:05:58,000 position they get the most votes. Interesting, we could we could end up 92 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:02,160 with this weird scenario where so many like it's an even split and half of 93 00:06:02,199 --> 00:06:08,040 them votes come in for Yokich at center, and half of them come in 94 00:06:08,079 --> 00:06:11,879 for em Beat at center, and then neither is actually eligible and neither of 95 00:06:11,879 --> 00:06:16,759 them are on the first team. I guess that would be fascinating that God 96 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:20,279 just get rid of positions already. But yeah, it's so dumb, like 97 00:06:20,519 --> 00:06:27,160 we don't we don't subscribe to positions in almost any scheme these days, on 98 00:06:27,199 --> 00:06:30,240 offense or on defense really, And like I've always heard the mantra that you 99 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:34,079 are what you defend, So that's how I tend to think about positions more 100 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:38,879 than their offensive roles. So to me, like Yokich is still very much 101 00:06:38,879 --> 00:06:42,800 a center because he plays in the interior and plays some drop coverage and all 102 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:44,839 that stuff, So like to me, he's not a forward at all. 103 00:06:45,319 --> 00:06:49,680 But also who gives a ship because positions are irrelevant. I'm with you, 104 00:06:49,759 --> 00:06:54,319 and that would be the one potential problems about the other. Jannie is on 105 00:06:54,319 --> 00:06:56,079 first thing, if you want to have be honest on first team, al 106 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:59,560 MBA, I don't know what you're doing, that's a no brainer. The 107 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:02,199 book Dountchich stuff, I think don Chich is a lot at first team. 108 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:05,560 And if you put Booker on first team, That's where I'm assuming. The 109 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:10,199 other problem spot would be is are people going to prefer Steph? Are they 110 00:07:10,199 --> 00:07:14,439 going to prefer Jah? Are they going to prefer even a Trey Young or 111 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:17,839 a you know, do I thin classfying Chris Paul. So my case for 112 00:07:17,879 --> 00:07:23,639 Booker is thus there's I did see the Suns tweeted out that everyone who's averaged 113 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:26,639 twenty five, five and five for the best team in the league is one 114 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:30,199 MVP. Historically, the rebound stuff are just that's irrelevant to me, and 115 00:07:30,319 --> 00:07:34,279 this season is just such an anomaly when you look at what yokichianis and beat 116 00:07:34,319 --> 00:07:39,439 are doing. Anyway, I will say there has long been the debate of 117 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:43,560 who's more important to the Sun's Booker or CP three. I even when I 118 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:46,759 was doing MVP ladders before Chris Paul's injury, I had him in the top 119 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:49,199 five and I had Devin Booker outside the top five of the rankings. I 120 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:53,879 think that playing time absolutely matters, and Booker has locked is going to log 121 00:07:53,959 --> 00:07:56,879 more minutes by a pretty substantial margin. When you look at how much time 122 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:00,680 Steph is going to miss, then Curry, then CP three then amarant that 123 00:08:00,759 --> 00:08:03,680 makes it easier. I also think that like, yeah, maybe Chris Paul 124 00:08:05,079 --> 00:08:09,160 gives Phoenix's offense as shape and structure, but that's by both design and necessity 125 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:13,600 where I feel like he has to domineer the offense. And the fact that 126 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:16,240 Booker can scale his game when you look at the way he moves off the 127 00:08:16,279 --> 00:08:20,759 ball, or just the general essence of him playing off you know, a 128 00:08:20,759 --> 00:08:24,680 primary ball handle or a ball dominant point guard. There's value in that, 129 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:28,120 and the fact that he can talkle between that and then the role of hey, 130 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:33,720 I'm going to captain these units without him. The Sons are a plus 131 00:08:33,759 --> 00:08:37,879 seven point five points per one hundred possessions when he's playing without Chris Paul this 132 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:41,200 season. Excuse me, Yeah, that's really good. That's about what the 133 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:43,960 Bucks are outscoring opponents overall. With your honest on the court. Again, 134 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:48,240 you can't scale those things perfectly, but that matters. He is also when 135 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:52,840 you're comparing him to CP three logged like five hundred possessions more as the solo 136 00:08:52,919 --> 00:08:56,240 star. I also think we tend to underrate that. Yeah, there's his 137 00:08:56,440 --> 00:09:00,279 we don't need to overcomplicate this. He is averaging about twenty six point five 138 00:09:00,279 --> 00:09:05,159 assists per game shooting better than fifty percent on twos and almost thirty eight percent 139 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:07,720 from three for the best team in the league. Like we don't need to 140 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:11,600 overcomplicate that. I still feel like we don't appreciate his passing enough. And 141 00:09:11,639 --> 00:09:16,519 I keep coming back to this stat because he has routinely registered among the most 142 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:22,039 effective passers among the five hundred plus players who have logged at least fifty minutes 143 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:28,159 this season. Booker ranks third and first among all non point guards in assist 144 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:31,720 to pass percentage adjusted, and that is simply the percentage of passes by a 145 00:09:31,759 --> 00:09:37,480 player that turned to assists, free throw assists, or secondary assists. So 146 00:09:37,519 --> 00:09:39,879 he is third in that category and first among all point guards. And he 147 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:45,759 is first in this category bar none since he exited health and safety protocols last 148 00:09:45,799 --> 00:09:50,200 month that not surprisingly coincided with Chris Paul still being absent with that sumb injury. 149 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:54,919 Devin Booker absolutely deserves to be in this discussion. If you're going to 150 00:09:54,919 --> 00:09:56,960 have someone else here, I think there's a case for it to be Steph 151 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:01,960 for to be Jaw when you also factor in he's played more the sun success 152 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:05,960 with him alongside CP three and without CP three. If I'm gonna have him 153 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:09,519 on my MVP out in the top five. That's why I felt comfortable putting 154 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:11,120 him the top five of MVP, and that's why I'm gonna feel comfortable putting 155 00:10:11,159 --> 00:10:15,519 him first team All NBA. Now it gets weird. I don't know what 156 00:10:15,519 --> 00:10:18,799 the positional destinations are going to be. If you if Lebron or Kevin Durant 157 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:22,320 for some reasons eligible at guard, fine, Devin Booker having just the minute 158 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:28,840 bump here, I'm gonna drive that baby home. Like I think that availability 159 00:10:28,919 --> 00:10:31,919 still matters in this discussion. I might I'm more inclined to throw it out 160 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:35,200 the window in All NBA than I am for the MVP. But Devin Booker 161 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:39,559 has been so good in a I don't want to call it a hybrid role, 162 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:43,639 but a hybrid role, and he I'm not gonna you know, there's 163 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:46,440 no shame in the fact that I think he's bolstered his case during the time 164 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:48,840 that CP three was out. I don't think there's a shame in saying he 165 00:10:48,879 --> 00:10:54,399 did that. I'm right there with you, and I do think as Booker 166 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:58,279 has continued to expand his game, I feel like he's become the model for 167 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:03,240 what every team is looking for when it inevitably experiments with having a two guard 168 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:05,759 play the one, because we saw it early in his career where they're going 169 00:11:05,799 --> 00:11:09,320 to try to squeez him into lineups as the de facto point guard. Live 170 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:13,600 with the mistakes, see what he can do, see how he develops, 171 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:16,840 and this is what you hope for. And oftentimes that experiment goes sideways. 172 00:11:16,919 --> 00:11:22,279 It's not continued, the skills aren't developed, it creates bad habits. This 173 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:26,080 is what every team hopes for when it does that, because he is so 174 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:31,519 seamlessly able to fill both a primary scorer and a primary distribution role. And 175 00:11:31,639 --> 00:11:35,799 it's I keep coming back to the idea, like the numbers are all phenomenal, 176 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:39,120 just every one of them looks great for him. He's typically not a 177 00:11:39,159 --> 00:11:43,600 player who's adored by advanced stats, because he takes on such a hard offensive 178 00:11:43,639 --> 00:11:48,600 scoring role that his efficiency numbers are a little bit lower. He's depressed in 179 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:52,159 some of the catch all metrics that's changed this year, and yet to me, 180 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:56,320 it's still more impressive the ease with which he's operated. It never looks 181 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:58,919 like he's breaking the sweat. It's just his game has been so esthetically pleasing. 182 00:12:00,039 --> 00:12:03,759 This year that it's it's just fantastic to watch. I would I would 183 00:12:03,799 --> 00:12:09,679 actually follow up your point about positional eligibility with Lebron and Durant specifically, even 184 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:13,519 if they were guard eligible. I don't think I'm putting either of them over 185 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:18,159 him here. I just don't see that. It's just so like so steep 186 00:12:18,399 --> 00:12:20,799 there, uh there. I ran into this problem between Tatum and Durant. 187 00:12:20,799 --> 00:12:24,080 I didn't know what to do with it because Tatum was like nine hundred minutes 188 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:28,159 on Durant this season, which is nine hundred minutes a lot. So I'm 189 00:12:28,159 --> 00:12:30,759 with you. The other thing I wanted to ask you, this is anecdotally 190 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:35,159 when you're considering other players that you could have put there, steph Jah Donovan, 191 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:39,159 Mitchell, Trey Young. I'm gonna leave CP three off this because you're 192 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:41,639 gonna understand in a second, and then Devin Booker. Those five guys, 193 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:46,320 am I forgetting anybody else that you would have considered for that spot. No, 194 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:54,879 who among those five has been the best defensively this season? Well, 195 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:58,200 Chris Paul would have be the easy answers, so that I didn't include. 196 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:00,840 That's why I left him off. He would have been number six guy, 197 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:05,759 in that I think Booker has That's I agree with you, and I just 198 00:13:05,759 --> 00:13:09,879 wanted one to make sure that I'm not. You know, he's very clearly 199 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:13,360 more engaged on that end. The reads are better, the rotations are smoother. 200 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:16,600 The past like two seasons. Really, it feels like on the ball 201 00:13:16,639 --> 00:13:20,919 he's made whatever, he's just been better than people are going to say. 202 00:13:20,919 --> 00:13:24,000 So, I just might say Jaw is second there since he came back from 203 00:13:24,039 --> 00:13:30,320 that first injury. He's Yeah, I don't know that Donovan Mitchell has been 204 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:35,159 that great there this year. Hasn't and his role is ultimately way easier because 205 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:39,879 his job is to funnel things towards Gobert. The other the Donovan Mitchell that's 206 00:13:39,919 --> 00:13:41,919 that that he's only averaging to pass the game to routine. Saw that one 207 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:46,960 today too, Maples, But that was wild. My anecdotal question for you 208 00:13:48,279 --> 00:13:52,080 is, in light of what we learned literally live on this episode about the 209 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:58,399 positional eligibility stuff, is Janni's the biggest lock for this team because if there's 210 00:13:58,399 --> 00:14:03,279 a chance that there's no chance, Yeah, he's not making it none whatsoever. 211 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:09,440 But there are scenarios in which one of the two that both could be 212 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:13,639 centers and then I don't know who's gonna make it. I think you're right 213 00:14:13,799 --> 00:14:18,279 because Don would probably be the like the second most likely lock. Yeah, 214 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:22,200 just because I think Marant CP three's and even steps Now, Steph has played 215 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:24,240 over two thousand minutes. Let's make that clear that if you want to put 216 00:14:24,279 --> 00:14:28,480 step on first team, I'm not going to argue with it. But yeah, 217 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:31,720 I think you're right because it's honest. Because he's in top three in 218 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:35,799 the MVP easily and not in a nutshell, is why these positions are so 219 00:14:35,919 --> 00:14:39,840 dumb, right, So that's a great It has to be him, it 220 00:14:39,919 --> 00:14:43,639 has to be I would argue though that Yokich seems like more. It does 221 00:14:43,639 --> 00:14:46,960 feel like yo Kich is going to win MVP, and so if he's gonna 222 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:50,919 win MVP, you're more sure of that than me. Right now, I 223 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:54,919 would bet a substantial amount of money on it. You know you can do 224 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:58,879 that now, it's legal. I'm sure the odds aren't in my favor for 225 00:14:58,919 --> 00:15:01,440 that one. I should have done it. I couldn't believe Joel Embide was 226 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:03,879 the odds on favorite for so long, and I just it was gonna be 227 00:15:03,919 --> 00:15:07,240 Yoki, So I should have that should have been my retirement planned as I 228 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:11,200 should have divested whatever retirement portfolio I had thrown it into Yokich's MVP odds, 229 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:13,159 and i'd i'd be sweating bullets right now, but it might be sitting pretty 230 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:16,759 and like, well, we don't find out. I'm just I'm just impressed 231 00:15:16,799 --> 00:15:22,120 as a sportswriter, you have a retirement portfolio. So second team then, 232 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:24,960 I think we can. So let's start with center, because I feel like 233 00:15:26,039 --> 00:15:28,000 this is we know yokichen Ebide aren't there now, Yeah, we still have 234 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:31,879 as your second team center. It's Towns and it's pretty easily Towns. He 235 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:35,879 is. I just he's so good. There was I don't know if he's 236 00:15:35,879 --> 00:15:39,519 going to clip the other night. The Timberwolves actually posted it of him just 237 00:15:39,639 --> 00:15:41,360 like working off the dribble, and I'm like, what the fuck? Like 238 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:46,200 this guy is just so good and the edge she's played with this season is 239 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:52,799 awesome. It's like last season was so understandably miserable for Towns, just the 240 00:15:54,159 --> 00:15:58,879 havoc that COVID nineteen reeked on him and his family, like he understandably did 241 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:04,600 not play basketball with. Just like the effusive joy that we've seen this year 242 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:08,399 and it's hard to believe that that hasn't made him more effective right now, 243 00:16:08,759 --> 00:16:12,159 just he looks like he's having fun out there. You know. It's the 244 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:18,000 little things like the willingness to make fun of our Russell Westbrook airball in the 245 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:21,639 middle of a game, like stuff like that, Like we haven't seen that 246 00:16:21,919 --> 00:16:26,960 edge from him in the past, where he's so clearly ridiculously skilled on the 247 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:32,120 offensive end, and he's shown flashes of being at least a competent defender on 248 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:34,360 the interior, always been a great passer. I don't think there's much of 249 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:40,120 a question that he's the best shooting big man of all time at this point. 250 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:42,240 No disrespect to Dirk, but he simply didn't play in an era in 251 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:45,440 which you were allowed to shoot ten threes a game like this, And you 252 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:48,360 can make a case for Kevin Durant because he's basically seven feet tall, but 253 00:16:48,399 --> 00:16:52,000 he's not really a big so to me, the dirt case is also like 254 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:56,639 his off the dribble jumpers and fatily jumpers, which is stuff that Towns isn't 255 00:16:56,759 --> 00:17:00,559 that's not part of his role because that's also something that's bidden weed it out 256 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:03,640 of the game. So to me, that's Towns, but like all of 257 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:08,359 that has been true for a while, but now just I keep coming back 258 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:12,480 to that edge just like he wants it this year and he's getting it. 259 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:19,119 It's like someone took Patrick Beverly's essence applied it to karl Anthy Town's offense, 260 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:23,559 but still made Karl Anthony Town's likable on Like Patrick Beverley, I also give 261 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:27,559 I give credit to kar Anthy Towns for it seems like he's embraced sort of 262 00:17:27,599 --> 00:17:33,480 Anthony Edwards playing this leadership role where Edwards has said publicly and it's very uplifting. 263 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:37,079 Shit. But if you're the veteran or this has been your team and 264 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:38,559 Edwards comes in and he's telling you, like that's how I need you to 265 00:17:38,559 --> 00:17:42,400 play every night, you could technically take that the wrong way. I'm sure 266 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:47,720 he did when Jimmy Butler did that, But I heard there are some explosive 267 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:51,759 practices or something and the edge was not coming from Towns. So yeah, 268 00:17:51,839 --> 00:17:53,920 and a tour to force, you might say, but it's something like that 269 00:17:55,119 --> 00:18:00,480 maybe a preplay and interview to say that. I give Karl Anthony Towns credit 270 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:07,200 for like taking that in stride and just still fitting into the larger scope of 271 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:10,000 the team while he's doing this, but he's been absolutely ridiculous. There's not 272 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:15,920 even a question for me between him and Rudy Gobert anymore for this spot specifically. 273 00:18:15,319 --> 00:18:19,400 So that and I think would Bam Adebio have a case if he played 274 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:23,880 more. Maybe I think maybe I was, you know, a spoiler here, 275 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:26,359 but I was between Bam and Rudy Gobert for my third team spot. 276 00:18:26,599 --> 00:18:30,160 I thought that was a much closer. I would love to know who the 277 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:33,839 other candidate was that you would have been Jared Allen but just didn't play enough. 278 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:40,880 But my point being, I thought Bam and Gobert were way closer than 279 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:45,440 Gobert in Towns this year. Yeah, I agree, I'd agree with that. 280 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:51,000 The forewards is where things get a little wonky, do they to me? 281 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:53,519 To me, the second team forwards were the easy part and the guards 282 00:18:53,559 --> 00:18:56,559 is where it got really tricky. Well, tell me your second team powers 283 00:18:56,559 --> 00:19:02,440 and I'll let you know. I think it has to be Durant and Tatum. 284 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:07,359 Okay, I have Lebron and I have I've between Tatum and Kevin Durant 285 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:11,640 on that last spot. And I hinted it this before. I don't know 286 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:15,640 how to get around that. Tatum is logged twenty seven hundred plus minutes to 287 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:23,160 Durant's eighteen hundred plus. That's like a huge gap for me, and I 288 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:27,200 think I'm leaning Tatum because of that. But Kevin Durant has been the Nets 289 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:32,000 without Harden and Kyrie on the floor at scoring upons by over eleven points per 290 00:19:32,039 --> 00:19:36,200 one hundred possessions with Kevin Durant in those lineups. So we basically agree that 291 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:37,839 Tatum is locked. Then I wrote him down first. I don't think he's 292 00:19:37,839 --> 00:19:41,480 a lot because I could. I consider Lebron. Lebron is the other on. 293 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:45,160 Don't think there's a case for Lebron here, Like I get it because 294 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:48,240 he's he might win the scoring title him. Oh no, you made it 295 00:19:48,279 --> 00:19:52,279 Durant and Tatum. Yeah, So like Lebron has a very good chance to 296 00:19:52,279 --> 00:19:56,640 win the scoring title if he plays enough games, I think with a thunder 297 00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:59,720 on the schedule. Someone tweeted the South af forget who, like there's a 298 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:02,799 real chance for like that David Robinson seventy one point game at the end of 299 00:20:02,799 --> 00:20:06,759 the season kind of thing. Just like the sheer stat stuffing that is going 300 00:20:06,799 --> 00:20:08,359 to happen, But that's kind of what I feel this season has been, 301 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:15,599 is that he's put up ridiculous individual numbers that have not made this team better 302 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:19,680 in every year, like he's had worst supporting cast than this, that he 303 00:20:19,799 --> 00:20:23,680 is dragged to better records than this, and it really feels like a lot 304 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:30,119 of his production has not come in a way that floats this Lakers team in 305 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:33,119 the right direction. I'm not saying Lebron has been like a problem for LA 306 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:37,279 or isn't making the team better with his production and all that, but at 307 00:20:37,279 --> 00:20:41,559 the same time, like he's not making people better because he is, you 308 00:20:41,599 --> 00:20:45,559 know, taking these possessions where he commandeers the ball for much of it and 309 00:20:45,559 --> 00:20:48,519 then scores, or seeking out his own shot and staying in games a little 310 00:20:48,519 --> 00:20:52,359 longer than he should to rack up some big numbers, and the defensive effort 311 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:57,480 just clearly has not been there on way too many possessions. So I have 312 00:20:57,559 --> 00:21:04,440 trouble squaring away just how disastrously bad this Lakers team has been, like worse 313 00:21:04,559 --> 00:21:08,759 than tanking teams during the second half of the season while he's been on this 314 00:21:08,839 --> 00:21:17,359 scoring binge. To want to reward those individual numbers here that really seems like 315 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:22,319 an oversimplification of what he's done. This man is averaging over thirty points, 316 00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:25,480 over six assists per game, and I would argue he's taking on that scoring 317 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:29,799 burden or whatever you want to He's inflating his numbers by necessity because who else 318 00:21:29,839 --> 00:21:33,039 is going to do it? Anthony Davis has seldom been available to what end? 319 00:21:33,839 --> 00:21:37,640 Okay, Lebron is shooting the highest two the second highest two point percentage 320 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:41,559 of his career. He's been really good as an individual. I'm in no 321 00:21:41,599 --> 00:21:45,640 way denying that right. And the Lakers are better with him on the court, 322 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:49,799 despite you saying that he doesn't elevate the team by how much, they're 323 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:53,319 three point five points per one hundred possessions better, which pushes them to what 324 00:21:55,839 --> 00:21:56,599 that I don't have that pulled up in front of me, but that's in 325 00:21:56,640 --> 00:22:00,720 the seventy third percentile of differentials. They've still lost the minutes Lebron is played 326 00:22:02,079 --> 00:22:06,359 this year. I want to ask you who has had the worst supporting cast 327 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:10,079 this season. If you want to say it's Kevin Durant, I might listen 328 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:15,759 to you. It could be Kevin Durant. It's close. I just I 329 00:22:15,799 --> 00:22:18,799 feel like I think you're being dismissed. I don't think you're wrong. I 330 00:22:18,559 --> 00:22:22,920 have Lebron on my third team, so like, I am recognizing what he 331 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:26,799 has done, at least to some extent. But if we're reward like, 332 00:22:26,839 --> 00:22:32,279 all NBA to me is about rewarding the people who had the best season. 333 00:22:32,599 --> 00:22:36,200 It's not a reputation based award. It's not a who scored the most points 334 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:38,640 award. It's about who provided the most value to their team. Do you 335 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:44,000 have Lebron James ahead of Kevin Durant and Jason Tatum in an MVP ballot? 336 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:48,119 Probably not Jayson Tatum, but Jason Tatum is also the other name that I 337 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:52,319 put on this. I'm gonna look at the minutes played and I guess Lebron 338 00:22:52,319 --> 00:22:55,039 only has like a two hundred minute edge on Kevin Durant. Yeah, this 339 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:59,119 season, it's kind of an interesting quandary there. But to me, this 340 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:04,599 is Durant versa. I don't know, man, although I'll be honest to 341 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:10,319 me, it's actually it's actually Durant versus my other thirteen for it because Lebron 342 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:12,400 was the last for it to make it for me, so I think I'm 343 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:18,720 gonna I'm gonna settle mine on. I think Lebron and KD for my second 344 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:23,880 team, really, so Lebron over Tatum. Look, Tatum's case, to 345 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:27,319 me has been fueled more so by a mid season turn around, and you 346 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:30,519 have to recognize that not for him, but the Celtics specifically. I will 347 00:23:30,559 --> 00:23:34,359 recognize too that the Celtics are killing opponents when he plays without Jaylen Brown. 348 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:41,359 That matters as well. Okay, I can't discount what Lebron has done. 349 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:45,160 Maybe I'm sort of grandfathering in Lebron's reputation too much, and I I promise 350 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:48,200 you that I'm not trying to discount what he's done so much as like give 351 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:51,759 it the contextualization. I think it's been lacking this season. But so here's 352 00:23:51,759 --> 00:23:57,000 my thing is that what what else would you like Lebron to do in LA? 353 00:23:57,599 --> 00:24:02,240 Basically try to play defense? He did for the first part of the 354 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:07,480 season but became through this team sucked. So the response to the teams seas 355 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:11,039 he's also stopped playing defense and just score all the points that he's also stepped 356 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:15,319 up and played center and point guard. Basically during so long of these stretches, 357 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:18,559 what specifically when a D was out I don't think you can discount that 358 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:23,480 he has is the roster his thought. You could make that argument if you're 359 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:27,240 going to penalize him there, that's fine, But we're talking about someone who 360 00:24:27,559 --> 00:24:32,920 might win the scoring title while being as efficient inside the arc as he's ever 361 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,559 been, while also getting to the rim less. So he is hitting. 362 00:24:36,599 --> 00:24:37,680 Yeah, if you want to, you know, if you're gonna even a 363 00:24:37,799 --> 00:24:41,839 three point percentage is above the gaverge? Is that like thirty six percent? 364 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:45,200 So I don't know what you're if you really think that those are all empties 365 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:49,519 calorie empty calorie numbers that is, I don't think all of them are. 366 00:24:49,759 --> 00:24:55,680 I think if you could factor out garbage time scoring that it would look a 367 00:24:55,680 --> 00:25:00,279 lot worse. Because there have been a bunch of games where the late Kers 368 00:25:00,279 --> 00:25:03,640 are down thirty with no chance of winning, and then Lebron scores fifteen points 369 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:10,039 and they still have no chance of winning. I think that's really fair. 370 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:14,079 Again, I just feel like you're being I'm just even looking the Lakers are 371 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:15,799 losing the minutes. The funny thing is like I know that I'm going to 372 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:21,480 come off as it's like Lebron Hayter in this episode, which is just totally 373 00:25:21,519 --> 00:25:27,359 antithetical to what I've been throughout his entire career. I'm just look, he's 374 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,960 done. He's put up these numbers efficiently, and I'm looking. I'm just 375 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,119 I'm laughing at we get these numbers. Lakers are getting slaughtered when Lebron plays 376 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:37,519 without Russ too. He is fifth in value over a place and player Jason 377 00:25:37,559 --> 00:25:41,680 Tatum is sixth. Kevin Durant is eighth. I don't think that you can 378 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:45,119 go wrong with any combination. That is the least sexiest take of all time. 379 00:25:45,559 --> 00:25:49,960 I get it. I'm gonna go with Lebron and Durant and value what 380 00:25:51,079 --> 00:25:56,640 I think are the better players right now because I'm I am. I have 381 00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:00,359 a problem with the Durant. That's the best argument you've made so far. 382 00:26:00,279 --> 00:26:03,920 The thing that's turning it for me is if I was gonna put Durant on 383 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:08,200 the third team because of playing time, I still would probably keep Lebron on 384 00:26:08,279 --> 00:26:15,599 second team. But to me, like Tatum's season has mattered and Lebron's, 385 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:18,759 except for what it's going to do the record books, has not to the 386 00:26:18,799 --> 00:26:23,920 same, at least not to the same extent. I just like if if 387 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:30,119 I'm ranking my forwards. Tatum was three, Durant was four, Lebron was 388 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:34,039 six. Then I really waffled between six and seven. I just I think 389 00:26:34,079 --> 00:26:38,559 Tatum has more to work with and I really just believe that I'm not And 390 00:26:38,599 --> 00:26:42,400 when you get into the value to the team, he's probably gonna be put 391 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:45,640 above Lebron and a lot of those discussions and maybe even that I'm just too 392 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:49,240 much of a coward and waiting like team success there. But I do think 393 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,519 he's been the much better defender this season because Lebron has certainly turned that off. 394 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:56,000 I also can't discount in this discussion. I still think Lebron is the 395 00:26:56,039 --> 00:27:00,279 better player. He's cleared over two thousand minutes this season. He's going eating 396 00:27:00,319 --> 00:27:03,599 for the scoring title, while I can't help but think, like, if 397 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:10,440 you could remove his name from this and it was John Smith, who is 398 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:15,279 averaging thirty one points a game for a massively disappointing below five hundred team, 399 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,960 We're talking about John Smith like we used to talk about Monte Ellis. Okay, 400 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,160 well, here's my thing. Let's talk about John Smith in the context 401 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:26,359 of thirty plus point six plus assist per game on sixty one nine true shooting 402 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:32,720 Yeah, great individual numbers for a way below five hundred team that is about 403 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:36,039 to be eliminated from play and tournament contention. But wouldn't you look You have 404 00:27:36,079 --> 00:27:38,400 to look at the context of those teams? Is My point is? Who's 405 00:27:38,519 --> 00:27:45,440 trying to Who's that goes both ways? Who's the Lakers third best player? 406 00:27:45,839 --> 00:27:51,319 There isn't one, seriously, who's the Lakers third best player? Or even 407 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:55,240 better, how many how many russ still? How many? No, how 408 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:59,640 many of many of them? Really? Are you sure? How many Celtics 409 00:28:00,039 --> 00:28:03,519 aside from Jayson Tatum are you taking before the Lakers third best player? Whoever? 410 00:28:03,559 --> 00:28:11,759 You know? Almost all of them? That matters to me? It 411 00:28:11,799 --> 00:28:15,759 does, it does, It's It's always one of those conversations. It's so 412 00:28:15,799 --> 00:28:19,240 difficult to have because I'm a firm believer that team quality really shouldn't impact the 413 00:28:19,319 --> 00:28:25,240 MVP conversation. But that's that goes away to an extent, like I'm not 414 00:28:25,279 --> 00:28:29,079 trying to sit here and argue that Trey Young belongs in the MVP conversation this 415 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:33,880 year. Some of like our our RPR MVP predictor at MBA math has him 416 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,519 in the top six, And if anyone asks, I'll be like, yeah, 417 00:28:36,559 --> 00:28:38,480 that's too high. Subjectively, I would have him lower because this team 418 00:28:38,519 --> 00:28:42,079 is not good. It should be, but it's not. And to a 419 00:28:42,119 --> 00:28:47,400 certain extent, like I think that you can you could forget about the delineations 420 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:49,559 between like the top six teams, the top seven teams, that's an arbitrary 421 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:53,880 number. Throw it out. You know, good teams, great teams, 422 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:59,039 all that stuff. But when you're when you're down in the gutter where the 423 00:28:59,119 --> 00:29:03,880 Lakers have been, where every narrative is negative, I don't know, like 424 00:29:04,359 --> 00:29:08,319 that has to matter because that's that's part of the season. And yeah, 425 00:29:08,319 --> 00:29:15,680 like he's had nothing to work with, But it feels like there was a 426 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:21,920 better way to use his talents this year. Like we've seen We've seen Lebron 427 00:29:22,039 --> 00:29:29,200 James in the past make so many random role players in Cleveland look like they 428 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:33,559 were good NBA players. Where has that been? Like you can't you can't 429 00:29:33,599 --> 00:29:37,240 look at this, but you, I mean you, Tayln Horton, Tucker, 430 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:41,000 Taylan Horton Tucker has had a terrible year, but you're telling me that 431 00:29:41,079 --> 00:29:48,759 like twenty twelve, Lebron wouldn't have turned him into something useful. I mean, 432 00:29:48,839 --> 00:29:55,759 Calen Horton Tucker's actually probably come on a little bit. I'm just this 433 00:29:55,839 --> 00:29:59,599 is not like you, this is this is this isn't like when Lebron is 434 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:00,920 taking this team. Like, first of all, you were talking about an 435 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:04,519 Eastern conference in twenty twelve. It's drastly different than a Western conference in twenty 436 00:30:04,839 --> 00:30:10,480 twenty two. The other thing is just like there was some competency on even 437 00:30:10,519 --> 00:30:15,559 the worst Lebron rosters, Like look, the Drunasogawskis was there, And I'm 438 00:30:15,599 --> 00:30:21,319 just like, we don't need to compare our age thirty four Lebron to age 439 00:30:21,359 --> 00:30:23,359 twenty four Lebron. Oh sure, it's not a fair comparison at all, 440 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:27,400 But I'm just I'm just saying, like he has that skill set, his 441 00:30:27,519 --> 00:30:33,920 passing acumen has not declined, except the willingness to do that has changed a 442 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:37,599 little bit. Because to me, like I've watched these Lakers games recently, 443 00:30:38,119 --> 00:30:41,079 and I don't get the impression that Lebron is out there trying to win. 444 00:30:42,119 --> 00:30:45,319 I mean, to some extent, sure, like he obviously wants to win 445 00:30:45,359 --> 00:30:49,559 games, but it doesn't seem like the primary priority right now. It seems 446 00:30:49,559 --> 00:30:53,440 like he's accepted that this Lakers team is not going anywhere. He's gonna go 447 00:30:53,519 --> 00:30:56,720 get his he's gonna chase down Kareem and the record books. He's going to 448 00:30:56,799 --> 00:31:03,000 try to win the scoring title at age thirty seven, and I just I've 449 00:31:03,039 --> 00:31:07,400 seen you would think given Lebron's competitiveness, you know, the quote about how 450 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:11,000 he's having the time of his life and stuff like, I'm sure that that 451 00:31:11,039 --> 00:31:17,039 wasn't entirely like me true because this team has just been so tumultuous and turmoil 452 00:31:17,079 --> 00:31:21,799 filled. But I would think, given the competitive nature I've seen from Lebron 453 00:31:21,839 --> 00:31:25,480 throughout his career, that if this Lakers team was on the verge of missing 454 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:29,960 the play in tournament, then he's gonna lock down on defense. And I've 455 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:33,319 seen more and more possessions in the second half of the season where he stands 456 00:31:33,319 --> 00:31:37,200 there and watches the action and throws his hands up in the air. That 457 00:31:37,359 --> 00:31:41,640 to me, is not the mentality that I would expect to see from him. 458 00:31:41,759 --> 00:31:45,920 If if the biggest goal was, like, let's get this team in 459 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:48,920 the playoffs at all costs, maybe if Durant is maybe, if Davis is 460 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:52,799 healthy, we can make some noise. Because I'm still that good. There's 461 00:31:52,839 --> 00:31:59,480 just been there's just been this air of fatalism to some extent for this team, 462 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,000 and I'm gonna hold that against him here. I just feel like if 463 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,880 you're gonna do that, you need to be more consistent with it, and 464 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:07,119 he shouldn't be on one of your all NBA teams. Well, at a 465 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:12,599 certain point the individual numbers matter different they still do. I mean, like 466 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:15,880 I again, like I have him on my third team. But if we're 467 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:21,079 comparing him again, like the primary comparison here is Tatum and Durant, and 468 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:28,000 Durant has had a disappointing Brooklyn Nets season with shifting personnel and questionable availability, 469 00:32:28,519 --> 00:32:31,599 and what's held him back are injuries. And when he's been on the floor, 470 00:32:32,559 --> 00:32:38,720 he's playing his ass off and he's putting up massive numbers in meaningful games, 471 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:45,640 and when they're losing their tight losses and overtime losses and Tatum his ascension. 472 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:50,119 Are you complimenting Kevin Durant based on losses to the Charlotte Hornets? Is 473 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:52,079 that what's happening. It's not ideal, but at least they're close and they're 474 00:32:52,119 --> 00:32:57,720 not thirty point blowout losses to random teams with him Lebron supporting cast and let's 475 00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:00,920 see where he is. Would I think it'd be better? They wouldn't. 476 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:05,519 They just they wouldn't because Lebron's offensive usage is so necessary and it's just so 477 00:33:06,079 --> 00:33:08,440 on a different scale. And even the comparison for me is you want to 478 00:33:08,519 --> 00:33:13,599 use Tatum, you want to use Durant as well, Like Lebron is eleventh 479 00:33:13,839 --> 00:33:17,119 in total offensive workload percentage for me ballendex, which is just a more accurate 480 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:22,599 gauge of the the meaningfulness behind the player's usage. Jayson Tatum is twenty eight. 481 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,599 I didn't look at what Kevin Durance was just because it was way lower 482 00:33:25,599 --> 00:33:29,880 than Lebron's, just because I'm not That's not the debate for me, the 483 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:34,640 fact that his role is so much more central to the Lakers offense, and 484 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,319 if you have a problem with has also been a defensive stud, though, 485 00:33:37,759 --> 00:33:42,119 what's that Tatum's also been a defensive stud, Okay, but his offense is 486 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:45,920 so like if you're gonna Tatum has been better defensively. I don't really think 487 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:50,200 that that's up for debate. But I'm also of the mind that like, 488 00:33:50,759 --> 00:33:52,920 someone who's so central to the offense like that is going to be more valuable 489 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:58,440 than someone who is the third best defender on his team. Awesome. So 490 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,519 I don't know a problem with what you did. I just find that logic 491 00:34:01,559 --> 00:34:07,079 to be a little bit inconsistent with a team at all if you're gonna play 492 00:34:07,119 --> 00:34:10,960 because because I think that. To me, it's when you're comparing him to 493 00:34:12,039 --> 00:34:17,039 Tatum and Durant, what they've done for better teams and their skill level supersedes 494 00:34:17,079 --> 00:34:22,000 what he's done. And then we get into the conversation where like the final 495 00:34:22,199 --> 00:34:27,840 three for me are really the final four. We're Jimmy Butler, Demarda roz 496 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:32,760 and Lebron and Pascal Siakam. So we're then comparing against just a lower tier 497 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:37,760 of player. And it's not an insult to Siakam and those other guys. 498 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:40,480 I'm in no way trying to dismiss what they've done, but the comparison is 499 00:34:40,519 --> 00:34:46,880 different, and at that point, the ridiculous individual production can outweigh the more 500 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:51,679 meaningful minutes. But when we're talking about Tatum and Durant, two guys who 501 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:58,119 like are on the periphery of the MVP discussion, I don't think it's I 502 00:34:58,119 --> 00:35:00,920 don't think it's the same conversation. So it doesn't feel inconsistent to me so 503 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:06,280 much as we're comparing him to a different tier. I guess I've found it 504 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:08,679 interesting that you have Tatum just so much closer to with Kevin Durant than you 505 00:35:08,679 --> 00:35:14,119 would have Pascal Siakam or a Jimmy. I mean, I think that Tatum 506 00:35:14,159 --> 00:35:20,639 moved into like potentially the top five of the MVP conversation for a stretch here 507 00:35:20,639 --> 00:35:24,159 in the second half before a Booker just went off and kind of replaced him 508 00:35:24,159 --> 00:35:29,039 there, and the same of Luca. I mean, I'm looking at like 509 00:35:29,079 --> 00:35:36,679 the the RPR MVP predictor here, and Tatum is currently fourth. He trails 510 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:44,440 only the three obvious candidates, right, But what is so I guess I'm 511 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:49,360 trying. I'm finding you seem to be very much penalizing Lebron for just the 512 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:52,880 Lakers record, I guess is what I'm taking away from this, that's like 513 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:57,559 lack of the lack of influence on the on the Lakers record, because I 514 00:35:57,639 --> 00:36:04,760 just I view I view some of this individual production as empty. That is, 515 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:07,519 that is certainly a choice. I guess that's all I have to stay 516 00:36:07,559 --> 00:36:13,239 there. So I'm settling on Durant and Lebron for my second team ones. 517 00:36:13,679 --> 00:36:15,800 Who are your second team guards? Well, we answered, how we're gonna 518 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:22,639 extend this one? Yeah, second team guards. I had Stephan, John 519 00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:28,440 I had, I had Steph and Chris Paul. Paul's gonna wind up play 520 00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:32,400 more minutes. He is ridiculous. I think John Ran actually leads the NBA 521 00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:37,639 and Crunch Time scoring per appearance, but Chris Paul has been like just a 522 00:36:37,679 --> 00:36:40,679 crunch time killer. And just what he's done I know is numbers don't jump 523 00:36:40,679 --> 00:36:43,840 off the page. But he's been lights out from mid range again. Like 524 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:45,239 I said, he gives maybe because he has to. That's the way he 525 00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:49,960 plays. He gives Phoenix his offensive shape and structure. I think the fact 526 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:52,559 that he's gonna end up, you know, playing substantially more minutes by the 527 00:36:52,599 --> 00:36:54,599 end of this season. We don't know if we're gonna see Joam Ran again 528 00:36:54,639 --> 00:36:58,159 before the playoffs. We might, but he still has like a two hundred 529 00:36:58,199 --> 00:37:00,239 minute lead as we're even in recording this. That's with him missing some time. 530 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:04,840 But yeah, I mean, Steph seemed like a should be a second 531 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:07,880 team lock. I know people kind of made light of his MVP case that 532 00:37:07,039 --> 00:37:12,159 wasn't as he went through that slump we're kind of seeing now the level of 533 00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:15,599 value there isn't just having him on the floor, by him not being on 534 00:37:15,599 --> 00:37:20,400 the floor of a golden state. Yeah, I was actually closer to having 535 00:37:20,599 --> 00:37:23,719 John Morant on first team than Steph honestly, just because of that shooting slump. 536 00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:29,960 And I think to me, part of the All NBA conversation and maybe 537 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:34,760 this is why we have that Lebron discrepancy is the story of the season two 538 00:37:35,039 --> 00:37:37,800 and I just I don't think you can tell it without Morant this year, 539 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:42,679 because even when he hasn't been on the floor for Memphis, like that influence 540 00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:45,159 has still felt because of how much he's been able to empower his teammates. 541 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:49,760 And you've also said, like you don't look at availability quite as much in 542 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:53,280 All NBA as you do an MVP, which is fine with that. The 543 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:57,599 Grizzlies have been killing people without Dah Morant, and so like, how do 544 00:37:57,639 --> 00:38:00,199 you detect John. I'm not saying they're not better off without John maronn want 545 00:38:00,199 --> 00:38:04,760 to make that clear for sure, No, I'm saying that I think I 546 00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:07,280 think there's been a lot of empowerment there, just him giving that whole team 547 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:14,960 confidence. You are placing so much weight in like the the eth role I 548 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:19,920 am in this, especially in a weird season like this, that is that's 549 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:23,199 interesting. I don't think that it's wrong. That's just it's interesting because I 550 00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:28,159 don't know how you can look at what John Steph is done, have done 551 00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:31,599 and think that Jaw is clearly the better player. I guess I didn't say 552 00:38:31,639 --> 00:38:36,760 that you're saying he's the better player this season by putting if you're considering putting, 553 00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:38,639 you, if you're if you were going to put him on first team 554 00:38:38,639 --> 00:38:42,800 above Steph, you were saying that he was the better player this season. 555 00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:47,880 He I think he's had the better season. I don't think that he's the 556 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:52,599 better player. You're saying that he's had been the better player than this season. 557 00:38:52,599 --> 00:38:54,159 How do you have the better season than by having if it's because of 558 00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:57,840 because if you if you switch there, I mean, if you switch their 559 00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:02,519 roles. That's kind of how I answer the best player in a vacuum question. 560 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:07,559 They're slightly different to me, but regardless, Like I think what Morant 561 00:39:07,559 --> 00:39:13,719 has done in Memphis, it has just been utterly ridiculous because it gave the 562 00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:19,440 Grizzlies that life that they needed to thrive even without him on the floor. 563 00:39:20,119 --> 00:39:24,800 Just I don't think that you get that that same. I mean, watching 564 00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:30,960 Memphis this year has been watching a team play with unbridled confidence, regardless who's 565 00:39:30,119 --> 00:39:36,079 of who's on the floor. I don't think that that happens without that reckless, 566 00:39:36,119 --> 00:39:40,920 freewheeling version of John Morant. Does that make any sense? No, 567 00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:45,639 I don't think I've ever disagreed with like an approach. You've had more to 568 00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:50,639 just to be quiet, so wild to be I think there's a case to 569 00:39:50,679 --> 00:39:53,440 be made, well, we both he would. I think there's a case 570 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:58,840 that he belongs on second team. I don't think it's over like a Steph 571 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:01,119 Curry case me at this point, it's just where I would I would be 572 00:40:01,159 --> 00:40:05,400 at if it's over CP three. I'm I'll defer to you and say you're 573 00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:07,440 right, Like that's there's certainly a case there is When you look at the 574 00:40:07,519 --> 00:40:12,440 numbers, two what hurt CP three? Advanced metrics still love him, But 575 00:40:12,559 --> 00:40:15,199 like John Morant, someone who's gonna average twenty plus points per game, do 576 00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:17,920 all this stuff that makes highlights towards CP three, who's very much like, 577 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:22,880 yeah, I'm gonna be rock solid defensively set up my teammates both ridiculous and 578 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:25,000 crunch time too, right, And so I mean, this is why this 579 00:40:25,119 --> 00:40:30,199 car. I feel like a lot of these differences get magnified because it seems 580 00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:36,480 like there's this like first team All NBA sounds so much better than second team 581 00:40:36,519 --> 00:40:39,840 All NBA. To use one of your phrases, we're splitting already thrice split 582 00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:46,159 hairs. Like to me, like these we're trying to make these mountains out 583 00:40:46,159 --> 00:40:52,000 of molehills, just to explain the differences, They're so small, that's the 584 00:40:52,039 --> 00:40:57,559 biggest thing. I'm not Yeah, I'm totally with you. I get like 585 00:40:57,599 --> 00:41:00,960 we're getting hung up on just whatever. I'm just I'm even looking at the 586 00:41:00,039 --> 00:41:04,440 numbers between Steph and John, I guess I just don't I'm not sure. 587 00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:07,880 I just one hundred percent understand it. Like Steph is the more efficient three 588 00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:12,039 point shooter, he's shooting about the same on two's the better free throw shooter. 589 00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:15,800 They're very comparable with assists. I'm just defense is a big difference, 590 00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:20,199 though I don't think you're in particular. I don't think there's a huge difference 591 00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:22,960 there at all. I think that's I think that since again, since John 592 00:41:23,159 --> 00:41:28,039 returned from that first injury. I think there's been a pretty substantial difference. 593 00:41:29,159 --> 00:41:31,880 That's always been that underrated defender for sure, Like Jah has been better than 594 00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:38,000 that. If John has been better defensively this season since coming back from his 595 00:41:38,039 --> 00:41:43,400 initial injury, I would agree to think that there's like this huge gap between 596 00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:47,840 the two based off their responsibilities, I would disagree. I think John Rant's 597 00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:52,519 role is probably more streamlined on certain nights based off the talent he has around 598 00:41:52,559 --> 00:41:55,760 him. But yeah, I'm just it's look, that's your I'm not even 599 00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:58,880 trying. I feel like I was being an asshole when I was saying that 600 00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:00,360 I don't agree with you. I don't think I've just ever disagreed with you. 601 00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:04,280 More. I'm like the approach to something which I guess is good for 602 00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:09,159 podcasting. We were worried about banging this thing out in twenty minutes third team. 603 00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:13,159 We are. I'm not trying to be contraried or anything. I feel 604 00:42:13,159 --> 00:42:20,079 like this year has been really difficult to evaluate statistically because we had that period 605 00:42:20,599 --> 00:42:23,400 It feels like ages ago at this point, but we had that period where 606 00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:31,199 there was such limited availability that a lot of things got really thrown off in 607 00:42:31,199 --> 00:42:35,960 a way that can't be remedied for the whole year. So I found myself 608 00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:39,880 taking more of an anecdotal, observation based approach this year than I ever have 609 00:42:40,039 --> 00:42:43,719 before. And I think we're just seeing some of that come up right now 610 00:42:44,039 --> 00:42:45,320 and look, just to be clear so that it doesn't make it look like 611 00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:50,119 I'm this giant ass hat who's dismissing what you say. I have Jason Tatum 612 00:42:50,119 --> 00:42:52,559 in the top ten of my MVP ballot and neither Kevin Durant nor lebron Na. 613 00:42:52,639 --> 00:42:55,280 Yet I just Putatim on my third team All MBA. Like I said, 614 00:42:55,280 --> 00:43:00,800 I'm waiting playing time a lot in that. See me, it's harder 615 00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:05,280 to separate those two things, Like I find myself defaulting to my MVP ballot 616 00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:09,280 when I place these because I don't view all NBA as just like, let's 617 00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:14,639 put the best players in a vacuum, so much as the guys who have 618 00:43:14,679 --> 00:43:19,599 had the best season and things that weigh into that MVP conversation way into that 619 00:43:19,639 --> 00:43:22,679 as well. I think the difference is that I don't think you need were 620 00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:27,039 the MVP. When you're talking about the value injected. There's a specific type 621 00:43:27,079 --> 00:43:30,639 of value you're looking for. I don't think that value is as integral to 622 00:43:30,679 --> 00:43:35,280 the all NBA discussion, where you can focus more on individual I feel like 623 00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:38,480 I'm I feel like internally I'm consistent between those two though, where I do 624 00:43:38,559 --> 00:43:44,280 discredit once we reach a certain extent. But I don't like way, you 625 00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:49,400 know, the lack of team success heavy on the air quotes for those who 626 00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:53,840 aren't watching this on video with Yokich just Denver Nuggets versus Jannie's Milwaukee Bucks. 627 00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:59,480 Like to me that discrepancy is irrelevant, is explained away by context, and 628 00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:02,159 then when we to the Lakers, it's a different story, and which I 629 00:44:02,199 --> 00:44:06,039 don't think there's a problem with that, I guess I just think you're ascribing 630 00:44:06,119 --> 00:44:09,360 too much value to the role that Lebron has played and where the Lakers are. 631 00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:15,519 It feels like his biggest fault is not being able to help them escape 632 00:44:15,559 --> 00:44:19,880 a situation that they're not built to escape even with him, And if you 633 00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:22,960 want to I would not respect that's wrong. I respect all your opinions. 634 00:44:23,079 --> 00:44:27,960 I'd probably understand more of what you're doing if you're flat out just saying they 635 00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:30,639 wouldn't fucking be here if he didn't advocate for the Russell Westbrook trade, and 636 00:44:30,639 --> 00:44:36,480 I would understand that position more than the one that's that honestly doesn't play a 637 00:44:36,519 --> 00:44:39,239 part of it. It's it's hard to explain. It's just like, I 638 00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:45,800 feel like he's propped up this year by the fact that he's a thirty seven 639 00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:47,840 year old with a chance for the scoring title, and like, to me, 640 00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:51,719 that doesn't matter. I call him age thirty four before I made him 641 00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:53,639 younger. I don't know why to call him age. To me, like 642 00:44:54,079 --> 00:44:58,920 the age is irrelevant. It makes it cooler, it makes it more impressive, 643 00:44:59,119 --> 00:45:01,320 it doesn't give him a case. But I feel like a lot of 644 00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:06,119 the value ascribe to Lebron has been like, look what he's doing at this 645 00:45:06,159 --> 00:45:09,039 advanced age. But yeah, like an earlier version of Lebron, a better 646 00:45:09,119 --> 00:45:13,320 version of Lebron, is probably carrying this team. I'm not comparing the two, 647 00:45:13,639 --> 00:45:16,639 but I'm just saying, like, it's just because he can't lift this 648 00:45:16,679 --> 00:45:22,559 team doesn't mean that other players couldn't. You're so you're saying the Lakers of 649 00:45:22,599 --> 00:45:29,679 today would be better with Jason Tatum than Lebron James this season. Maybe absolute, 650 00:45:29,679 --> 00:45:31,639 I won't even I won't even entertain that. And what you also see, 651 00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:35,599 I don't. So you're saying that what he's doing can't be applied. 652 00:45:35,599 --> 00:45:38,159 If the Lakers were better, he wouldn't uplift them. Like that's my whole 653 00:45:38,159 --> 00:45:42,599 thing is like what Lebron is doing right now can absolutely translate to a much 654 00:45:42,639 --> 00:45:45,719 better version of the Lake if the Lakers are around Lebron were better, I 655 00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:47,679 think the way he plays is better. I don't. I don't think that 656 00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:52,519 Lebron really goes into a season trying to win the scoring title so much just 657 00:45:52,519 --> 00:45:57,159 trying to make the right play. And that's show the right play is scoring 658 00:45:57,239 --> 00:46:00,360 because no one's around him? Again, is the right play? Triple clutching 659 00:46:00,519 --> 00:46:05,079 and then airballing fade away three pointer when you could have passed the ball to 660 00:46:05,119 --> 00:46:09,320 an open teammate. How many times he done that in a very pivotal game? 661 00:46:09,679 --> 00:46:14,199 How many times has he done that? Though you're anecdote just the ones 662 00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:16,079 that I can remember, But like, that's not a play that I remember, 663 00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:21,000 Like peak Lebron making. Let's move on to third team because second teak 664 00:46:21,159 --> 00:46:24,360 way too long. So just just to recap, I have Steph John Morant, 665 00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:30,800 Jason Tatum, Kevin Durrett, Carl Anthony Towns. I have Steph Chris 666 00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:34,800 Paul Lebron. I made the Kevin Durant switch. I need to change that 667 00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:37,960 in my document. And Karl Anthony Towns. That was so much time spent 668 00:46:38,039 --> 00:46:43,239 on such minor discrepancies. Third Team, we both already know. We have 669 00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:47,440 Rudy Gobert. I have Chris Paula Lebron because I still respect what they're doing 670 00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:52,159 this year. So we have Rudy Gobert is as the center. Though is 671 00:46:52,159 --> 00:46:54,760 there a case for did you consider Bam over him at all? Very briefly, 672 00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:58,559 I mean, it's it's tough because, like usually, Gobert is the 673 00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:00,760 far and away favorite for Defensive Player of the Year and all that, and 674 00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:05,559 he's really not this year. But he's still been pretty damn good on defense, 675 00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:08,840 and you know, his his offensive game, though limited though a lower 676 00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:14,719 volume, is always so efficient. I mean, he's very good at what 677 00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:17,519 he does. What he does is inherently limited, but he excels in that 678 00:47:17,639 --> 00:47:22,599 role. And had Bam been available for the whole season, I think he's 679 00:47:22,599 --> 00:47:25,280 probably getting third team this year, but he wasn't, and he isn't. 680 00:47:27,199 --> 00:47:30,559 I gave Rudy Gobert that does more with less Bumpierre. I don't agree with. 681 00:47:30,039 --> 00:47:32,960 I'm sure you saw that him or Joe Ellenbiad or both of them just 682 00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:37,039 said, you know, perimeter players are responsible for one person or two things. 683 00:47:37,039 --> 00:47:40,119 I'm responsible for everyone. I don't think that's the case for every big 684 00:47:40,119 --> 00:47:44,599 man. I would point to DeAndre Ayton, who's very much a backline communicator. 685 00:47:44,639 --> 00:47:50,000 But because mcale bridges exists, he's going to give Phoenix's defense its form. 686 00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:53,239 To me more than eighton. Wouldn't think it's fair to every perimeter player 687 00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:58,519 in today's NBA because there are so many switch happy schemes that are difficult to 688 00:47:58,559 --> 00:48:02,400 pull off see Marcus Smart. And Yeah, my point was Rudy Gobert is 689 00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:07,199 responsible for everyone because the Jazz have not given him any alternative other than to 690 00:48:07,199 --> 00:48:09,719 be responsible for everyone. And I'm that might under sell roy Sony a little 691 00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:13,599 bit. Like that's it. And Mike Conley's probably better defensively at this point 692 00:48:13,639 --> 00:48:15,599 than like Donovan Mitchell, which is a problem in and of itself, so 693 00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:21,119 that I disagreed with, But I had Rudy Gobert second, I might consider 694 00:48:21,159 --> 00:48:22,639 putting the honest above him in the Defensive Player of Year about he's still in 695 00:48:22,639 --> 00:48:28,760 my top three because the Jazz are elite defensively with non elite talent around him 696 00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:31,039 for the most part when he is on the floor. That drives his value 697 00:48:31,079 --> 00:48:34,280 here for me, and I'm problem saying that if Bam had played more, 698 00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:37,320 maybe it's more of a conversation. He's been lighting it up on offense leave 699 00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:38,880 me too, so he could be making This might be the one that I 700 00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:44,440 think could change. When you look at the guards here, this became a 701 00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:49,159 little bit of a problem spot for me. I have Trey Young and John 702 00:48:49,159 --> 00:48:55,199 Moran, you have Chris Paul and Trey Okay, the tray is just so 703 00:48:55,280 --> 00:49:00,960 fucking good. I'm like ridiculous. Just this Hawks season has has been a 704 00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:06,119 disaster through and through except for him. Imagine what this team would have been 705 00:49:06,159 --> 00:49:10,000 without Trey Young because his ability. I think what impresses me the most about 706 00:49:10,039 --> 00:49:15,280 Trey Young, beyond the scoring explosions, beyond the passing, beyond the complete 707 00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:22,000 lack of defense, is the way that he is able to improve throughout a 708 00:49:22,039 --> 00:49:30,360 game. It is. It's just unbelievably impressive how he diagnoses what a team 709 00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:34,280 is doing to stop him and adjust to it in the same game. Because 710 00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:37,920 I think a lot of times you see the best players, they dictate what 711 00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:42,760 happens and dominate from there. He takes a more passive, a growth approach 712 00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:45,480 at the start of the game, figures out the best way to exploit it, 713 00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:52,239 and then he exploits it. So that's why we see just audacious second 714 00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:55,480 half performance after second half performance, and why he's able to put up these 715 00:49:55,480 --> 00:50:00,719 twelve and fifteen point fourth quarters in high levered situations because he's figured out what 716 00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:06,159 the other team is doing to stop the Atlanta offense. And his ability to 717 00:50:06,199 --> 00:50:10,079 do that on a consistent basis throughout this season and even keep a Hawks team 718 00:50:10,159 --> 00:50:15,480 with so many disappointing performances and so many significant injuries in the mix for a 719 00:50:15,519 --> 00:50:22,360 play in spot and a competitive Eastern Conference has been really impressive. He reett 720 00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:25,280 Bauer, longtime listener, and we DM a lot shout out to him. 721 00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:30,280 Pointed out when we were having the job rat versus tray discussion, he was 722 00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:32,719 surprised that you won picked jaw, as was I, and to that, 723 00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:37,519 neither of us mentioned that Trey Young's game is built to age so much better 724 00:50:37,559 --> 00:50:39,960 because of the types of shots he's getting, where a lot of stuff for 725 00:50:40,039 --> 00:50:44,559 jobs still predicated on his explosion. I echo everything you said there, and 726 00:50:44,639 --> 00:50:49,239 there's the level of difficulty ascribed his role. It's somewhat on him. I 727 00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:51,960 really and maybe the Hawks coaching staff. I would like to see him get 728 00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:53,920 in more actions away from the ball. Do they have the personnel to do 729 00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:57,280 that? And I buy that, I mean playmakers. They have the scores, 730 00:50:57,280 --> 00:51:00,519 but do they have the secondary playmakers? Probably not. So he's doing 731 00:51:00,519 --> 00:51:02,239 a lot of this by necessity. And this is just someone who is in 732 00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:07,840 the top five of both unassisted twos and unassisted threes while also being in the 733 00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:10,960 top five of assists on three pointers and then assist at the rim. He 734 00:51:12,039 --> 00:51:14,239 is one of the most valuable players in the game. I was trying to 735 00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:15,639 figure out a way, and I'm going to use this as a segue into 736 00:51:15,679 --> 00:51:20,119 the forwards. I was trying to figure out a way to get Pascal Siakam 737 00:51:20,199 --> 00:51:22,599 on here. And if I wasn't, if I was less of a coward, 738 00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:27,320 I'd probably have Pascal Siakim and Jayson Tatum. I have Damar and Jason 739 00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:30,920 Tatum. Just because I looked at Siakam versus Damar. The conclusions I came 740 00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:34,760 to is it's closer than I think most people are gonna think. When you 741 00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:37,199 and I even I was looking at their on off splits, I was looking 742 00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:40,719 at how the Raptors performed when it was Siakam with alf and Fleet versus Derosen 743 00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:45,760 without Leavine. Those performances were so similar. Siakim is so much clearly more 744 00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:49,920 valuable on defense, but Damara Rosen is going to give you just as a 745 00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:53,360 lower turnover guy who can work within tighter space is better, there's more value 746 00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:59,159 to him on offense. What made the difference for me is that Damar has 747 00:51:59,199 --> 00:52:01,119 been unreal in crunch time this year. For the most part, he has 748 00:52:01,159 --> 00:52:05,840 won the Bulls probably an extra like five to ten games just by being just 749 00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:10,400 a couple of wins. Even beyond that he's drawing. They've outscored opponents by 750 00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:14,079 fifty five points in crunch time with him on the court. That is a 751 00:52:14,159 --> 00:52:19,760 huge margin relative to to just how how little of a small the minute sample 752 00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:22,760 size you're working with. That was the difference for me. I considered putting 753 00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:25,760 him at guard and leaving Trey Young off. I ultimately couldn't do that, 754 00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:29,559 and so Siakam was just I think people are gonna be like, oh, 755 00:52:29,599 --> 00:52:31,840 Whe's Donovan Mitchell. Siakam was the tough one for me to leave off. 756 00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:36,119 So my my third team ends up sitting at John Morant, Trey Young, 757 00:52:37,679 --> 00:52:44,159 demardros and Jason Tam and Rudy Gobert. I feel same fifteen people did we 758 00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:46,719 I didn't even doesn't even pay attention to that that's did. My last point 759 00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:52,239 on Trey is that I do think that even though the Hawks aren't even guaranteed 760 00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:55,280 to be in the postseason proper, Trey Young can beat any team in a 761 00:52:55,360 --> 00:53:00,760 series. As bad as this Hawks team has been. I don't think you 762 00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:02,639 want to play Trey Young in the playoffs because if he catches fire, like 763 00:53:02,679 --> 00:53:07,079 this Hawks team could topple anyone in a seven game series. I would say, 764 00:53:07,119 --> 00:53:09,320 look what he did to the next last year. But that's like not 765 00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:15,559 that's doesn't mean that is look at I mean they haven't to. I guess 766 00:53:15,639 --> 00:53:17,039 the argument you can make about if you wanted to put the Rose in as 767 00:53:17,039 --> 00:53:20,800 a guard and then put Siakam in here, I would listen because like the 768 00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:23,239 Raptors have been better with Siakam on the court than the Hawks have been with 769 00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:27,519 Trey. Ditto for the bulls with them are and stuff, But Trey's role 770 00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:32,719 is just so all encompassing and like the efficiency doesn't get torpedoed by the fact 771 00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:36,760 that he has to take these shots and they're responsible for so much of the 772 00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:40,719 playmaking where I think that with Siakam, he just has more outlets and can 773 00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:45,519 be more deferential, And I would argue in certain situations Toronto prefers him to 774 00:53:45,559 --> 00:53:47,599 be more deferential. We've seen it with the way they've tried to groom Scotty, 775 00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:51,880 like they've run part of their trench side offense through Scottie Barnes at points. 776 00:53:52,320 --> 00:53:55,840 That's just Trey doesn't have that luxury exactly, the zach Lavine, like, 777 00:53:55,880 --> 00:53:59,840 they don't have that second best player there. So ye, even Siakam 778 00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:04,039 off hurts, would you have does? Would you have considered him over tomorrow? 779 00:54:04,039 --> 00:54:05,920 Though? Like that was a choice that came down to for me and 780 00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:09,239 I couldn't do it. No, I didn't really. I think one of 781 00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:15,519 the biggest mistakes that people make in analysis at this point of the season is 782 00:54:15,599 --> 00:54:20,760 forgetting that every game matter is the same, that a win in October is 783 00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:24,760 the same as a win in April, even if it feels different because of 784 00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:29,480 the stakes at the end of a year, Like if you've gotten the wins 785 00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:31,679 early, then you don't need the win at the end. So I think 786 00:54:31,719 --> 00:54:37,320 that we have devalued the torrid run that DAMARDA. Rosen was on in the 787 00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:43,280 first quarter of the season, where he was like a legitimate MVP front runner 788 00:54:43,679 --> 00:54:49,400 at that premature stage of the season, putting up scoring numbers literally not seen 789 00:54:49,559 --> 00:54:55,960 since Michael Jordan on jaw dropping efficiency numbers in a way that is typically anathema 790 00:54:57,079 --> 00:55:00,360 to the way that the NBA operates today. So he I had like that 791 00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:05,079 narrative element, the statistical element, the winning of the MVP debate for the 792 00:55:05,119 --> 00:55:08,280 longest time too. Yeah, So I think I think we forget about that 793 00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:14,960 and because of that, Like no, I was close to putting Siakam over 794 00:55:15,079 --> 00:55:17,320 Lebron, and I just I couldn't do it. I would have respected that 795 00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:22,159 by the way, just based off it was. It was legitimately close, 796 00:55:22,679 --> 00:55:27,679 but ultimately, like it comes, it came down not to keep really relitigating 797 00:55:27,679 --> 00:55:32,360 this, but I was comfortable dropping Lebron below Durant and Tatum because of their 798 00:55:32,440 --> 00:55:36,920 roles on those teams, and as you just said, like the Raptors are 799 00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:40,840 running crunch time stuff through Scotty Barnes. So Siakam has been an all NBA 800 00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:45,400 caliber player. But I just I couldn't justify that because at that point, 801 00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:51,679 I think the Lebron has been on a team that hasn't been any good. 802 00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:54,880 That argument loses a little bit of its luster when you're comparing it to a 803 00:55:54,920 --> 00:56:00,679 guy who has been really fucking good but has not been carrying. I have 804 00:56:00,719 --> 00:56:04,440 a final question for you before we get out of here. Let's say I 805 00:56:04,679 --> 00:56:07,719 have my fourth and fifteen to go over too. Well, there's honorable mentions, 806 00:56:07,760 --> 00:56:12,320 but first I have to ask you. Let's say that the NBA made 807 00:56:12,639 --> 00:56:15,599 Lebron or Siakham, because this would impact I have them eligible at center, 808 00:56:15,880 --> 00:56:20,719 and look if they're gonna make him beat and Yoka's eligible at forward. Let's 809 00:56:20,719 --> 00:56:22,679 say they made one of them eligible at center, would you have put either 810 00:56:22,719 --> 00:56:28,159 of them over Rudy Gobert, which then would have allowed Yeah, I would 811 00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:31,440 end up having Siam and Lebron on that final third team spot. I think 812 00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:36,480 I'm with you. Yeah, So that's something that'll be something to look for. 813 00:56:36,559 --> 00:56:38,320 I don't think Siakham it's not going to happen. It's not. It 814 00:56:38,360 --> 00:56:40,760 won't happen even if he's eligible. I'm curious to see if he would be 815 00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:45,320 eligible, and I almost I would have to look at it, but I 816 00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:50,400 feel like Lebron might have played more center this year then siakam thank totally anyway, 817 00:56:50,679 --> 00:56:53,400 So honorable mentions, you have two teams worth of so why don't you 818 00:56:53,440 --> 00:56:58,480 go through yours because I'm sure that there's just overlap, Like if we do 819 00:56:58,519 --> 00:57:00,599 that too, I feel like I need to say that, like Lebron has 820 00:57:00,679 --> 00:57:05,199 influenced how I watch basketball and think about basketball more than any other player of 821 00:57:05,199 --> 00:57:08,360 my lifetime. Like I have been such a huge fan of his throughout his 822 00:57:08,440 --> 00:57:14,679 career and have literally written articles about why I think he's the best basketball player 823 00:57:14,679 --> 00:57:17,559 ever, even if he might not necessarily topple Michael Jordan as the goat. 824 00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:22,239 So like this is hard for me to say I don't make any of these 825 00:57:22,920 --> 00:57:27,960 decisions or picks to be inflammatory or to like provoke a response like I just 826 00:57:28,039 --> 00:57:30,920 I had trouble putting him any higher than this. Yeah, way to walk 827 00:57:30,960 --> 00:57:35,480 back an entire podcast. If you're just shitting all over the goat, congratulations, 828 00:57:36,559 --> 00:57:38,599 You're just not gonna let me have that. No, I'm not cool, 829 00:57:38,880 --> 00:57:42,840 like I said, I respect everything you say. I've just never fundamentally 830 00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:49,239 and that's fine. That's fine if you make a fourth team or am I 831 00:57:49,280 --> 00:57:52,159 allowed to give you my think you have a fifth team? Sure, my 832 00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:58,039 fourth team would have been Donovan Mitchell at guard along with you. This is 833 00:57:58,159 --> 00:58:00,719 this was what agonized it for me, is do we make Jimmy Butler eligible 834 00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:04,360 as a guard? We do not? I don't. I didn't. I 835 00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:08,599 went Donovan Mitchell, Dejeante Murray, Jimmy Butler, Pascal Siakam and bam Adebio 836 00:58:08,679 --> 00:58:12,920 would have been the exact same fourth team. Brandon Ingram. Was tough for 837 00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:15,000 me to leave off of this one if I'm going to leak in fifteen, 838 00:58:15,039 --> 00:58:20,280 but please carry on my fifth team because I had the exact same fourth was 839 00:58:20,320 --> 00:58:24,559 Fred Van Vleet, Darius Garland, Brandon Ingram, Jaylen Brown, and Jared 840 00:58:24,559 --> 00:58:29,239 Allen. So no, Robert Williams the third your defensive player of the year. 841 00:58:30,119 --> 00:58:34,000 Yeah, no, Robert Williams the third didn't make one of your five 842 00:58:34,159 --> 00:58:36,840 on the eight teams. Wow, it doesn't do enough on offense for that. 843 00:58:37,599 --> 00:58:38,800 That's totally fair enough, as I kicked the charge out of the wall. 844 00:58:39,079 --> 00:58:44,360 It's really hard to leave Zach Lavine off all of those. Yeah, 845 00:58:44,400 --> 00:58:46,599 it was mine. Who was your fifteam again? Fifteen was Fred van Vleet, 846 00:58:46,960 --> 00:58:51,920 Darius Garland, Jaylen Brown, Brandon Ingram, and Jared Allen. I 847 00:58:51,920 --> 00:58:53,239 didn't know what to do, so it ultimately came down when I was just 848 00:58:53,280 --> 00:58:57,039 building my fourth team, because I think you could get into this if you 849 00:58:57,079 --> 00:58:59,360 were building any team, like oh, we went to seventh team, but 850 00:58:59,360 --> 00:59:02,039 they were still a decision you had to make. But Donovan Mitchell versus Van 851 00:59:02,079 --> 00:59:07,239 Fleet versus Dejeant Murray discussion was really difficult to me. To me, Dejante 852 00:59:07,360 --> 00:59:13,440 Murray was was the first He and Siaka and Butler were like the unabashed locks 853 00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:16,480 for my fourth year, I thought about Dejante Murray versus Trey Young for a 854 00:59:16,519 --> 00:59:22,239 second before deciding it wasn't actually much of a debate, So it was it 855 00:59:22,320 --> 00:59:25,800 was more Donovan Mitchell versus Fred Van Vleet was my toughest fourth team decision. 856 00:59:27,360 --> 00:59:30,960 And it's just I feel but I feel like I'm like like discounting when Fred 857 00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:35,079 van Fleet is done, and this is just it feels bad. Yeah, 858 00:59:35,320 --> 00:59:37,400 it's so difficult and as you said, like we have this no matter how 859 00:59:37,400 --> 00:59:40,119 deep we go, like no matter where you cut it off, there's a 860 00:59:40,199 --> 00:59:45,719 tough exclusion. Well, this was awesome and definitely not I don't know what 861 00:59:45,760 --> 00:59:47,199 this podcast is going to clock in at when we're done. Definitely not thirty 862 00:59:47,239 --> 00:59:52,360 minutes like we were worried about both. Well, sorry about that defense and 863 00:59:52,400 --> 00:59:54,440 all rookies. That will be a podcast we do next week at some point. 864 00:59:54,679 --> 00:59:59,119 We'll see if those are more streamlined or not. Please remember to rate, 865 00:59:59,119 --> 01:00:00,480 review, and subscribe to this podcast wherever you get your podcast, Where 866 01:00:00,480 --> 01:00:04,480 Were Everywhere? Follow up, Subscribe to us on YouTube, join our discord. 867 01:00:04,559 --> 01:00:07,639 Channel links for in the podcast description. Follow us on Instagram, TikTok, 868 01:00:07,719 --> 01:00:09,800 and Twitter links are in the podcast description. Yes, we were on 869 01:00:10,239 --> 01:00:15,079 TikTok until next time. Leave you with a shout out to the one the 870 01:00:15,239 --> 01:00:17,559 only would have made my fifth team All NBA if I went that far, 871 01:00:19,199 --> 01:00:19,880 Frank hio Keen