Hello, everyone, welcome to the latest episode of Hardwood Numps. This is
Outam Promlan here with my always fantastic co host, Dan Value, and we
have an agonizingly prepared episode for you today because we're going over the all NBA
teams first teams, second team, and third team alike. And then because
I can't help myself and made Dan go along for the ride, we even
went beyond the third team because we just we want to provide that content for
you. But this is an impossible exercise, even though the NBA ultimately made
it a little bit easier with some of the weird position allowances. As a
side note, we should just get rid of positions altogether, but because we
still do have the restrictions with two guards, two forwards in one center,
we do have to abide by them. But again, the league did make
it a little bit easier by making Joel and Nicola Yokich eligible at both forward
and center. Spoiler alert, we're both going to have them on the first
team. So things like that do make this a little easier, but it
does not make the overall process any less painful, because ultimately, when you're
forced to pick five people on your first team, five on your second and
five on your third. You're going to leave people out, so we apologize
in advance for anyone we offend. We offended ourselves doing this, So it's
tough and bear with us because a lot of thought went into these before we
go into any of the All NBA selections. Though, I have to ask
Dan, how's it going? I am spectacular. Just squeeze, get the
shoulder work out before we started recording. How about yourself? I'm feeling good.
I feel like that was a good intro. It was a good intro
right to the point. The only thing you forgot is to remember to subscribe
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If anyone you know likes basketball, just throw them this podcast. Help
us grow the community. That is already awesome. We're just trying to make
it awesome. We're getting really close to that thousand subscribers on YouTube that we
need for monetization. There my shameless endorsement of it, it yielded like thirty
followers, thirty subscribers, So I am curious how many came from that.
Because we had viral videos for you take it away from me. They were
all you, all nine hundred and thirty forty four subscribers on you. I
get no questions asked for mailbacks, So I'm taking this victory. You can.
I saw you. I was dealing with some others. I was actually
at a wedding that I thought I didn't know as a wedding. When you
sent that tweet, I was so flustered. I eventually ended up like bumping
it as well, once I had a minute to breathe, because I was
at a surprise wedding. That's a that's a difference story we don't need to
get into. Let's get into the every day. Yeah, but congratulations to
the newlyweds who just so happened to be my sister and her husband. I
just didn't know that she was getting married. That's not weird at all,
right, that she didn't tell No, it's totally normal. Uh so first
team. You already alluded to the Yo kitchen mead thing. They're probably gonna
make them. I haven't seen anything definitive whether they're gonna make them eligible at
one of them. If last year was if I've seen anything, I was
off the grid for a little bit. I was traveling, so maybe I
missed it. I vacillated on whether you should include them in the follow rankings
because they don't play forward even anything functionally. Yokich Kevin Arnovitz on the Low
Post a few weeks ago, I was talking about that Yokich is more point
guard than power forward, if we're being actually honest. So I'm with you,
I'd like to get rid of positions. I feel too icky leaving one
of them off the first team to care about diplomacy there, and so if
you're gonna let me put and I would if i'd have picked between the two,
Yokich is the center, I'm gonna put it, beat it forward.
If you're the way I look at it is, I think the same as
you. Where it's like, if the NBA is gonna let us we're trying
to get the best players we can on these teams. So I do wish
I had more information though, because I might have messed with how I did
some of the rest of the teams. Like DeRozan is a forward, clearly
like he should be, but if he's eligible guard, I might have done
some like Shenanigans because I that's just spoiling later on in the discussion. So
that's the one thing where it's like I didn't fudge positions all the time,
so it makes me wonder if I should fudge them here. Ultimately, they're
both gonna make no worse than all second team. I think it impacts Yes,
there's the cachet of first team all MBA, but that decision impacts Rudy
Gobert in my book, more than anyone else, or maybe bam Adebayo if
you had him. Is your a third team big, because I think the
top three bigs this season are sort of cemented in stone at this point.
So my first team was my MVP ballot. I had Yokich, Embiid,
Janice, don Chich, and Booker, So don Chitch and Booker were my
guards. Imbid and Yannis were my forwards. And yo was my center you
had. Do you want to go through your ballot before I go through what
could be the potential problem spots for people? Yeah, I had the exact
same thing. I mean, we had the same top five MVPA ballot.
We had a long discussion about that on the episode before this one, so
I have the same thing. And just to follow up on the eligibility question,
Mike Singer of the Denver Post was told on March twenty six, small
note, I'm told that both Nicola Yokich and Joel and People be eligible at
both forward and center on the All NBA vote. And then Mark Stein clarified
that this is the third season in a row that they'll both be on the
ballot at both positions. And then he said, as succinctly as I can
sum this All NBA team stuff up after checking with the proper authorities, if
embiad Yoki gets more center than forward votes, neither can make first team as
a forward. No matter how high they're total, players get placed at the
position they get the most votes. Interesting, we could we could end up
with this weird scenario where so many like it's an even split and half of
them votes come in for Yokich at center, and half of them come in
for em Beat at center, and then neither is actually eligible and neither of
them are on the first team. I guess that would be fascinating that God
just get rid of positions already. But yeah, it's so dumb, like
we don't we don't subscribe to positions in almost any scheme these days, on
offense or on defense really, And like I've always heard the mantra that you
are what you defend, So that's how I tend to think about positions more
than their offensive roles. So to me, like Yokich is still very much
a center because he plays in the interior and plays some drop coverage and all
that stuff, So like to me, he's not a forward at all.
But also who gives a ship because positions are irrelevant. I'm with you,
and that would be the one potential problems about the other. Jannie is on
first thing, if you want to have be honest on first team, al
MBA, I don't know what you're doing, that's a no brainer. The
book Dountchich stuff, I think don Chich is a lot at first team.
And if you put Booker on first team, That's where I'm assuming. The
other problem spot would be is are people going to prefer Steph? Are they
going to prefer Jah? Are they going to prefer even a Trey Young or
a you know, do I thin classfying Chris Paul. So my case for
Booker is thus there's I did see the Suns tweeted out that everyone who's averaged
twenty five, five and five for the best team in the league is one
MVP. Historically, the rebound stuff are just that's irrelevant to me, and
this season is just such an anomaly when you look at what yokichianis and beat
are doing. Anyway, I will say there has long been the debate of
who's more important to the Sun's Booker or CP three. I even when I
was doing MVP ladders before Chris Paul's injury, I had him in the top
five and I had Devin Booker outside the top five of the rankings. I
think that playing time absolutely matters, and Booker has locked is going to log
more minutes by a pretty substantial margin. When you look at how much time
Steph is going to miss, then Curry, then CP three then amarant that
makes it easier. I also think that like, yeah, maybe Chris Paul
gives Phoenix's offense as shape and structure, but that's by both design and necessity
where I feel like he has to domineer the offense. And the fact that
Booker can scale his game when you look at the way he moves off the
ball, or just the general essence of him playing off you know, a
primary ball handle or a ball dominant point guard. There's value in that,
and the fact that he can talkle between that and then the role of hey,
I'm going to captain these units without him. The Sons are a plus
seven point five points per one hundred possessions when he's playing without Chris Paul this
season. Excuse me, Yeah, that's really good. That's about what the
Bucks are outscoring opponents overall. With your honest on the court. Again,
you can't scale those things perfectly, but that matters. He is also when
you're comparing him to CP three logged like five hundred possessions more as the solo
star. I also think we tend to underrate that. Yeah, there's his
we don't need to overcomplicate this. He is averaging about twenty six point five
assists per game shooting better than fifty percent on twos and almost thirty eight percent
from three for the best team in the league. Like we don't need to
overcomplicate that. I still feel like we don't appreciate his passing enough. And
I keep coming back to this stat because he has routinely registered among the most
effective passers among the five hundred plus players who have logged at least fifty minutes
this season. Booker ranks third and first among all non point guards in assist
to pass percentage adjusted, and that is simply the percentage of passes by a
player that turned to assists, free throw assists, or secondary assists. So
he is third in that category and first among all point guards. And he
is first in this category bar none since he exited health and safety protocols last
month that not surprisingly coincided with Chris Paul still being absent with that sumb injury.
Devin Booker absolutely deserves to be in this discussion. If you're going to
have someone else here, I think there's a case for it to be Steph
for to be Jaw when you also factor in he's played more the sun success
with him alongside CP three and without CP three. If I'm gonna have him
on my MVP out in the top five. That's why I felt comfortable putting
him the top five of MVP, and that's why I'm gonna feel comfortable putting
him first team All NBA. Now it gets weird. I don't know what
the positional destinations are going to be. If you if Lebron or Kevin Durant
for some reasons eligible at guard, fine, Devin Booker having just the minute
bump here, I'm gonna drive that baby home. Like I think that availability
still matters in this discussion. I might I'm more inclined to throw it out
the window in All NBA than I am for the MVP. But Devin Booker
has been so good in a I don't want to call it a hybrid role,
but a hybrid role, and he I'm not gonna you know, there's
no shame in the fact that I think he's bolstered his case during the time
that CP three was out. I don't think there's a shame in saying he
did that. I'm right there with you, and I do think as Booker
has continued to expand his game, I feel like he's become the model for
what every team is looking for when it inevitably experiments with having a two guard
play the one, because we saw it early in his career where they're going
to try to squeez him into lineups as the de facto point guard. Live
with the mistakes, see what he can do, see how he develops,
and this is what you hope for. And oftentimes that experiment goes sideways.
It's not continued, the skills aren't developed, it creates bad habits. This
is what every team hopes for when it does that, because he is so
seamlessly able to fill both a primary scorer and a primary distribution role. And
it's I keep coming back to the idea, like the numbers are all phenomenal,
just every one of them looks great for him. He's typically not a
player who's adored by advanced stats, because he takes on such a hard offensive
scoring role that his efficiency numbers are a little bit lower. He's depressed in
some of the catch all metrics that's changed this year, and yet to me,
it's still more impressive the ease with which he's operated. It never looks
like he's breaking the sweat. It's just his game has been so esthetically pleasing.
This year that it's it's just fantastic to watch. I would I would
actually follow up your point about positional eligibility with Lebron and Durant specifically, even
if they were guard eligible. I don't think I'm putting either of them over
him here. I just don't see that. It's just so like so steep
there, uh there. I ran into this problem between Tatum and Durant.
I didn't know what to do with it because Tatum was like nine hundred minutes
on Durant this season, which is nine hundred minutes a lot. So I'm
with you. The other thing I wanted to ask you, this is anecdotally
when you're considering other players that you could have put there, steph Jah Donovan,
Mitchell, Trey Young. I'm gonna leave CP three off this because you're
gonna understand in a second, and then Devin Booker. Those five guys,
am I forgetting anybody else that you would have considered for that spot. No,
who among those five has been the best defensively this season? Well,
Chris Paul would have be the easy answers, so that I didn't include.
That's why I left him off. He would have been number six guy,
in that I think Booker has That's I agree with you, and I just
wanted one to make sure that I'm not. You know, he's very clearly
more engaged on that end. The reads are better, the rotations are smoother.
The past like two seasons. Really, it feels like on the ball
he's made whatever, he's just been better than people are going to say.
So, I just might say Jaw is second there since he came back from
that first injury. He's Yeah, I don't know that Donovan Mitchell has been
that great there this year. Hasn't and his role is ultimately way easier because
his job is to funnel things towards Gobert. The other the Donovan Mitchell that's
that that he's only averaging to pass the game to routine. Saw that one
today too, Maples, But that was wild. My anecdotal question for you
is, in light of what we learned literally live on this episode about the
positional eligibility stuff, is Janni's the biggest lock for this team because if there's
a chance that there's no chance, Yeah, he's not making it none whatsoever.
But there are scenarios in which one of the two that both could be
centers and then I don't know who's gonna make it. I think you're right
because Don would probably be the like the second most likely lock. Yeah,
just because I think Marant CP three's and even steps Now, Steph has played
over two thousand minutes. Let's make that clear that if you want to put
step on first team, I'm not going to argue with it. But yeah,
I think you're right because it's honest. Because he's in top three in
the MVP easily and not in a nutshell, is why these positions are so
dumb, right, So that's a great It has to be him, it
has to be I would argue though that Yokich seems like more. It does
feel like yo Kich is going to win MVP, and so if he's gonna
win MVP, you're more sure of that than me. Right now, I
would bet a substantial amount of money on it. You know you can do
that now, it's legal. I'm sure the odds aren't in my favor for
that one. I should have done it. I couldn't believe Joel Embide was
the odds on favorite for so long, and I just it was gonna be
Yoki, So I should have that should have been my retirement planned as I
should have divested whatever retirement portfolio I had thrown it into Yokich's MVP odds,
and i'd i'd be sweating bullets right now, but it might be sitting pretty
and like, well, we don't find out. I'm just I'm just impressed
as a sportswriter, you have a retirement portfolio. So second team then,
I think we can. So let's start with center, because I feel like
this is we know yokichen Ebide aren't there now, Yeah, we still have
as your second team center. It's Towns and it's pretty easily Towns. He
is. I just he's so good. There was I don't know if he's
going to clip the other night. The Timberwolves actually posted it of him just
like working off the dribble, and I'm like, what the fuck? Like
this guy is just so good and the edge she's played with this season is
awesome. It's like last season was so understandably miserable for Towns, just the
havoc that COVID nineteen reeked on him and his family, like he understandably did
not play basketball with. Just like the effusive joy that we've seen this year
and it's hard to believe that that hasn't made him more effective right now,
just he looks like he's having fun out there. You know. It's the
little things like the willingness to make fun of our Russell Westbrook airball in the
middle of a game, like stuff like that, Like we haven't seen that
edge from him in the past, where he's so clearly ridiculously skilled on the
offensive end, and he's shown flashes of being at least a competent defender on
the interior, always been a great passer. I don't think there's much of
a question that he's the best shooting big man of all time at this point.
No disrespect to Dirk, but he simply didn't play in an era in
which you were allowed to shoot ten threes a game like this, And you
can make a case for Kevin Durant because he's basically seven feet tall, but
he's not really a big so to me, the dirt case is also like
his off the dribble jumpers and fatily jumpers, which is stuff that Towns isn't
that's not part of his role because that's also something that's bidden weed it out
of the game. So to me, that's Towns, but like all of
that has been true for a while, but now just I keep coming back
to that edge just like he wants it this year and he's getting it.
It's like someone took Patrick Beverly's essence applied it to karl Anthy Town's offense,
but still made Karl Anthony Town's likable on Like Patrick Beverley, I also give
I give credit to kar Anthy Towns for it seems like he's embraced sort of
Anthony Edwards playing this leadership role where Edwards has said publicly and it's very uplifting.
Shit. But if you're the veteran or this has been your team and
Edwards comes in and he's telling you, like that's how I need you to
play every night, you could technically take that the wrong way. I'm sure
he did when Jimmy Butler did that, But I heard there are some explosive
practices or something and the edge was not coming from Towns. So yeah,
and a tour to force, you might say, but it's something like that
maybe a preplay and interview to say that. I give Karl Anthony Towns credit
for like taking that in stride and just still fitting into the larger scope of
the team while he's doing this, but he's been absolutely ridiculous. There's not
even a question for me between him and Rudy Gobert anymore for this spot specifically.
So that and I think would Bam Adebio have a case if he played
more. Maybe I think maybe I was, you know, a spoiler here,
but I was between Bam and Rudy Gobert for my third team spot.
I thought that was a much closer. I would love to know who the
other candidate was that you would have been Jared Allen but just didn't play enough.
But my point being, I thought Bam and Gobert were way closer than
Gobert in Towns this year. Yeah, I agree, I'd agree with that.
The forewards is where things get a little wonky, do they to me?
To me, the second team forwards were the easy part and the guards
is where it got really tricky. Well, tell me your second team powers
and I'll let you know. I think it has to be Durant and Tatum.
Okay, I have Lebron and I have I've between Tatum and Kevin Durant
on that last spot. And I hinted it this before. I don't know
how to get around that. Tatum is logged twenty seven hundred plus minutes to
Durant's eighteen hundred plus. That's like a huge gap for me, and I
think I'm leaning Tatum because of that. But Kevin Durant has been the Nets
without Harden and Kyrie on the floor at scoring upons by over eleven points per
one hundred possessions with Kevin Durant in those lineups. So we basically agree that
Tatum is locked. Then I wrote him down first. I don't think he's
a lot because I could. I consider Lebron. Lebron is the other on.
Don't think there's a case for Lebron here, Like I get it because
he's he might win the scoring title him. Oh no, you made it
Durant and Tatum. Yeah, So like Lebron has a very good chance to
win the scoring title if he plays enough games, I think with a thunder
on the schedule. Someone tweeted the South af forget who, like there's a
real chance for like that David Robinson seventy one point game at the end of
the season kind of thing. Just like the sheer stat stuffing that is going
to happen, But that's kind of what I feel this season has been,
is that he's put up ridiculous individual numbers that have not made this team better
in every year, like he's had worst supporting cast than this, that he
is dragged to better records than this, and it really feels like a lot
of his production has not come in a way that floats this Lakers team in
the right direction. I'm not saying Lebron has been like a problem for LA
or isn't making the team better with his production and all that, but at
the same time, like he's not making people better because he is, you
know, taking these possessions where he commandeers the ball for much of it and
then scores, or seeking out his own shot and staying in games a little
longer than he should to rack up some big numbers, and the defensive effort
just clearly has not been there on way too many possessions. So I have
trouble squaring away just how disastrously bad this Lakers team has been, like worse
than tanking teams during the second half of the season while he's been on this
scoring binge. To want to reward those individual numbers here that really seems like
an oversimplification of what he's done. This man is averaging over thirty points,
over six assists per game, and I would argue he's taking on that scoring
burden or whatever you want to He's inflating his numbers by necessity because who else
is going to do it? Anthony Davis has seldom been available to what end?
Okay, Lebron is shooting the highest two the second highest two point percentage
of his career. He's been really good as an individual. I'm in no
way denying that right. And the Lakers are better with him on the court,
despite you saying that he doesn't elevate the team by how much, they're
three point five points per one hundred possessions better, which pushes them to what
that I don't have that pulled up in front of me, but that's in
the seventy third percentile of differentials. They've still lost the minutes Lebron is played
this year. I want to ask you who has had the worst supporting cast
this season. If you want to say it's Kevin Durant, I might listen
to you. It could be Kevin Durant. It's close. I just I
feel like I think you're being dismissed. I don't think you're wrong. I
have Lebron on my third team, so like, I am recognizing what he
has done, at least to some extent. But if we're reward like,
all NBA to me is about rewarding the people who had the best season.
It's not a reputation based award. It's not a who scored the most points
award. It's about who provided the most value to their team. Do you
have Lebron James ahead of Kevin Durant and Jason Tatum in an MVP ballot?
Probably not Jayson Tatum, but Jason Tatum is also the other name that I
put on this. I'm gonna look at the minutes played and I guess Lebron
only has like a two hundred minute edge on Kevin Durant. Yeah, this
season, it's kind of an interesting quandary there. But to me, this
is Durant versa. I don't know, man, although I'll be honest to
me, it's actually it's actually Durant versus my other thirteen for it because Lebron
was the last for it to make it for me, so I think I'm
gonna I'm gonna settle mine on. I think Lebron and KD for my second
team, really, so Lebron over Tatum. Look, Tatum's case, to
me has been fueled more so by a mid season turn around, and you
have to recognize that not for him, but the Celtics specifically. I will
recognize too that the Celtics are killing opponents when he plays without Jaylen Brown.
That matters as well. Okay, I can't discount what Lebron has done.
Maybe I'm sort of grandfathering in Lebron's reputation too much, and I I promise
you that I'm not trying to discount what he's done so much as like give
it the contextualization. I think it's been lacking this season. But so here's
my thing is that what what else would you like Lebron to do in LA?
Basically try to play defense? He did for the first part of the
season but became through this team sucked. So the response to the teams seas
he's also stopped playing defense and just score all the points that he's also stepped
up and played center and point guard. Basically during so long of these stretches,
what specifically when a D was out I don't think you can discount that
he has is the roster his thought. You could make that argument if you're
going to penalize him there, that's fine, But we're talking about someone who
might win the scoring title while being as efficient inside the arc as he's ever
been, while also getting to the rim less. So he is hitting.
Yeah, if you want to, you know, if you're gonna even a
three point percentage is above the gaverge? Is that like thirty six percent?
So I don't know what you're if you really think that those are all empties
calorie empty calorie numbers that is, I don't think all of them are.
I think if you could factor out garbage time scoring that it would look a
lot worse. Because there have been a bunch of games where the late Kers
are down thirty with no chance of winning, and then Lebron scores fifteen points
and they still have no chance of winning. I think that's really fair.
Again, I just feel like you're being I'm just even looking the Lakers are
losing the minutes. The funny thing is like I know that I'm going to
come off as it's like Lebron Hayter in this episode, which is just totally
antithetical to what I've been throughout his entire career. I'm just look, he's
done. He's put up these numbers efficiently, and I'm looking. I'm just
I'm laughing at we get these numbers. Lakers are getting slaughtered when Lebron plays
without Russ too. He is fifth in value over a place and player Jason
Tatum is sixth. Kevin Durant is eighth. I don't think that you can
go wrong with any combination. That is the least sexiest take of all time.
I get it. I'm gonna go with Lebron and Durant and value what
I think are the better players right now because I'm I am. I have
a problem with the Durant. That's the best argument you've made so far.
The thing that's turning it for me is if I was gonna put Durant on
the third team because of playing time, I still would probably keep Lebron on
second team. But to me, like Tatum's season has mattered and Lebron's,
except for what it's going to do the record books, has not to the
same, at least not to the same extent. I just like if if
I'm ranking my forwards. Tatum was three, Durant was four, Lebron was
six. Then I really waffled between six and seven. I just I think
Tatum has more to work with and I really just believe that I'm not And
when you get into the value to the team, he's probably gonna be put
above Lebron and a lot of those discussions and maybe even that I'm just too
much of a coward and waiting like team success there. But I do think
he's been the much better defender this season because Lebron has certainly turned that off.
I also can't discount in this discussion. I still think Lebron is the
better player. He's cleared over two thousand minutes this season. He's going eating
for the scoring title, while I can't help but think, like, if
you could remove his name from this and it was John Smith, who is
averaging thirty one points a game for a massively disappointing below five hundred team,
We're talking about John Smith like we used to talk about Monte Ellis. Okay,
well, here's my thing. Let's talk about John Smith in the context
of thirty plus point six plus assist per game on sixty one nine true shooting
Yeah, great individual numbers for a way below five hundred team that is about
to be eliminated from play and tournament contention. But wouldn't you look You have
to look at the context of those teams? Is My point is? Who's
trying to Who's that goes both ways? Who's the Lakers third best player?
There isn't one, seriously, who's the Lakers third best player? Or even
better, how many how many russ still? How many? No, how
many of many of them? Really? Are you sure? How many Celtics
aside from Jayson Tatum are you taking before the Lakers third best player? Whoever?
You know? Almost all of them? That matters to me? It
does, it does, It's It's always one of those conversations. It's so
difficult to have because I'm a firm believer that team quality really shouldn't impact the
MVP conversation. But that's that goes away to an extent, like I'm not
trying to sit here and argue that Trey Young belongs in the MVP conversation this
year. Some of like our our RPR MVP predictor at MBA math has him
in the top six, And if anyone asks, I'll be like, yeah,
that's too high. Subjectively, I would have him lower because this team
is not good. It should be, but it's not. And to a
certain extent, like I think that you can you could forget about the delineations
between like the top six teams, the top seven teams, that's an arbitrary
number. Throw it out. You know, good teams, great teams,
all that stuff. But when you're when you're down in the gutter where the
Lakers have been, where every narrative is negative, I don't know, like
that has to matter because that's that's part of the season. And yeah,
like he's had nothing to work with, But it feels like there was a
better way to use his talents this year. Like we've seen We've seen Lebron
James in the past make so many random role players in Cleveland look like they
were good NBA players. Where has that been? Like you can't you can't
look at this, but you, I mean you, Tayln Horton, Tucker,
Taylan Horton Tucker has had a terrible year, but you're telling me that
like twenty twelve, Lebron wouldn't have turned him into something useful. I mean,
Calen Horton Tucker's actually probably come on a little bit. I'm just this
is not like you, this is this is this isn't like when Lebron is
taking this team. Like, first of all, you were talking about an
Eastern conference in twenty twelve. It's drastly different than a Western conference in twenty
twenty two. The other thing is just like there was some competency on even
the worst Lebron rosters, Like look, the Drunasogawskis was there, And I'm
just like, we don't need to compare our age thirty four Lebron to age
twenty four Lebron. Oh sure, it's not a fair comparison at all,
But I'm just I'm just saying, like he has that skill set, his
passing acumen has not declined, except the willingness to do that has changed a
little bit. Because to me, like I've watched these Lakers games recently,
and I don't get the impression that Lebron is out there trying to win.
I mean, to some extent, sure, like he obviously wants to win
games, but it doesn't seem like the primary priority right now. It seems
like he's accepted that this Lakers team is not going anywhere. He's gonna go
get his he's gonna chase down Kareem and the record books. He's going to
try to win the scoring title at age thirty seven, and I just I've
seen you would think given Lebron's competitiveness, you know, the quote about how
he's having the time of his life and stuff like, I'm sure that that
wasn't entirely like me true because this team has just been so tumultuous and turmoil
filled. But I would think, given the competitive nature I've seen from Lebron
throughout his career, that if this Lakers team was on the verge of missing
the play in tournament, then he's gonna lock down on defense. And I've
seen more and more possessions in the second half of the season where he stands
there and watches the action and throws his hands up in the air. That
to me, is not the mentality that I would expect to see from him.
If if the biggest goal was, like, let's get this team in
the playoffs at all costs, maybe if Durant is maybe, if Davis is
healthy, we can make some noise. Because I'm still that good. There's
just been there's just been this air of fatalism to some extent for this team,
and I'm gonna hold that against him here. I just feel like if
you're gonna do that, you need to be more consistent with it, and
he shouldn't be on one of your all NBA teams. Well, at a
certain point the individual numbers matter different they still do. I mean, like
I again, like I have him on my third team. But if we're
comparing him again, like the primary comparison here is Tatum and Durant, and
Durant has had a disappointing Brooklyn Nets season with shifting personnel and questionable availability,
and what's held him back are injuries. And when he's been on the floor,
he's playing his ass off and he's putting up massive numbers in meaningful games,
and when they're losing their tight losses and overtime losses and Tatum his ascension.
Are you complimenting Kevin Durant based on losses to the Charlotte Hornets? Is
that what's happening. It's not ideal, but at least they're close and they're
not thirty point blowout losses to random teams with him Lebron supporting cast and let's
see where he is. Would I think it'd be better? They wouldn't.
They just they wouldn't because Lebron's offensive usage is so necessary and it's just so
on a different scale. And even the comparison for me is you want to
use Tatum, you want to use Durant as well, Like Lebron is eleventh
in total offensive workload percentage for me ballendex, which is just a more accurate
gauge of the the meaningfulness behind the player's usage. Jayson Tatum is twenty eight.
I didn't look at what Kevin Durance was just because it was way lower
than Lebron's, just because I'm not That's not the debate for me, the
fact that his role is so much more central to the Lakers offense, and
if you have a problem with has also been a defensive stud, though,
what's that Tatum's also been a defensive stud, Okay, but his offense is
so like if you're gonna Tatum has been better defensively. I don't really think
that that's up for debate. But I'm also of the mind that like,
someone who's so central to the offense like that is going to be more valuable
than someone who is the third best defender on his team. Awesome. So
I don't know a problem with what you did. I just find that logic
to be a little bit inconsistent with a team at all if you're gonna play
because because I think that. To me, it's when you're comparing him to
Tatum and Durant, what they've done for better teams and their skill level supersedes
what he's done. And then we get into the conversation where like the final
three for me are really the final four. We're Jimmy Butler, Demarda roz
and Lebron and Pascal Siakam. So we're then comparing against just a lower tier
of player. And it's not an insult to Siakam and those other guys.
I'm in no way trying to dismiss what they've done, but the comparison is
different, and at that point, the ridiculous individual production can outweigh the more
meaningful minutes. But when we're talking about Tatum and Durant, two guys who
like are on the periphery of the MVP discussion, I don't think it's I
don't think it's the same conversation. So it doesn't feel inconsistent to me so
much as we're comparing him to a different tier. I guess I've found it
interesting that you have Tatum just so much closer to with Kevin Durant than you
would have Pascal Siakam or a Jimmy. I mean, I think that Tatum
moved into like potentially the top five of the MVP conversation for a stretch here
in the second half before a Booker just went off and kind of replaced him
there, and the same of Luca. I mean, I'm looking at like
the the RPR MVP predictor here, and Tatum is currently fourth. He trails
only the three obvious candidates, right, But what is so I guess I'm
trying. I'm finding you seem to be very much penalizing Lebron for just the
Lakers record, I guess is what I'm taking away from this, that's like
lack of the lack of influence on the on the Lakers record, because I
just I view I view some of this individual production as empty. That is,
that is certainly a choice. I guess that's all I have to stay
there. So I'm settling on Durant and Lebron for my second team ones.
Who are your second team guards? Well, we answered, how we're gonna
extend this one? Yeah, second team guards. I had Stephan, John
I had, I had Steph and Chris Paul. Paul's gonna wind up play
more minutes. He is ridiculous. I think John Ran actually leads the NBA
and Crunch Time scoring per appearance, but Chris Paul has been like just a
crunch time killer. And just what he's done I know is numbers don't jump
off the page. But he's been lights out from mid range again. Like
I said, he gives maybe because he has to. That's the way he
plays. He gives Phoenix his offensive shape and structure. I think the fact
that he's gonna end up, you know, playing substantially more minutes by the
end of this season. We don't know if we're gonna see Joam Ran again
before the playoffs. We might, but he still has like a two hundred
minute lead as we're even in recording this. That's with him missing some time.
But yeah, I mean, Steph seemed like a should be a second
team lock. I know people kind of made light of his MVP case that
wasn't as he went through that slump we're kind of seeing now the level of
value there isn't just having him on the floor, by him not being on
the floor of a golden state. Yeah, I was actually closer to having
John Morant on first team than Steph honestly, just because of that shooting slump.
And I think to me, part of the All NBA conversation and maybe
this is why we have that Lebron discrepancy is the story of the season two
and I just I don't think you can tell it without Morant this year,
because even when he hasn't been on the floor for Memphis, like that influence
has still felt because of how much he's been able to empower his teammates.
And you've also said, like you don't look at availability quite as much in
All NBA as you do an MVP, which is fine with that. The
Grizzlies have been killing people without Dah Morant, and so like, how do
you detect John. I'm not saying they're not better off without John maronn want
to make that clear for sure, No, I'm saying that I think I
think there's been a lot of empowerment there, just him giving that whole team
confidence. You are placing so much weight in like the the eth role I
am in this, especially in a weird season like this, that is that's
interesting. I don't think that it's wrong. That's just it's interesting because I
don't know how you can look at what John Steph is done, have done
and think that Jaw is clearly the better player. I guess I didn't say
that you're saying he's the better player this season by putting if you're considering putting,
you, if you're if you were going to put him on first team
above Steph, you were saying that he was the better player this season.
He I think he's had the better season. I don't think that he's the
better player. You're saying that he's had been the better player than this season.
How do you have the better season than by having if it's because of
because if you if you switch there, I mean, if you switch their
roles. That's kind of how I answer the best player in a vacuum question.
They're slightly different to me, but regardless, Like I think what Morant
has done in Memphis, it has just been utterly ridiculous because it gave the
Grizzlies that life that they needed to thrive even without him on the floor.
Just I don't think that you get that that same. I mean, watching
Memphis this year has been watching a team play with unbridled confidence, regardless who's
of who's on the floor. I don't think that that happens without that reckless,
freewheeling version of John Morant. Does that make any sense? No,
I don't think I've ever disagreed with like an approach. You've had more to
just to be quiet, so wild to be I think there's a case to
be made, well, we both he would. I think there's a case
that he belongs on second team. I don't think it's over like a Steph
Curry case me at this point, it's just where I would I would be
at if it's over CP three. I'm I'll defer to you and say you're
right, Like that's there's certainly a case there is When you look at the
numbers, two what hurt CP three? Advanced metrics still love him, But
like John Morant, someone who's gonna average twenty plus points per game, do
all this stuff that makes highlights towards CP three, who's very much like,
yeah, I'm gonna be rock solid defensively set up my teammates both ridiculous and
crunch time too, right, And so I mean, this is why this
car. I feel like a lot of these differences get magnified because it seems
like there's this like first team All NBA sounds so much better than second team
All NBA. To use one of your phrases, we're splitting already thrice split
hairs. Like to me, like these we're trying to make these mountains out
of molehills, just to explain the differences, They're so small, that's the
biggest thing. I'm not Yeah, I'm totally with you. I get like
we're getting hung up on just whatever. I'm just I'm even looking at the
numbers between Steph and John, I guess I just don't I'm not sure.
I just one hundred percent understand it. Like Steph is the more efficient three
point shooter, he's shooting about the same on two's the better free throw shooter.
They're very comparable with assists. I'm just defense is a big difference,
though I don't think you're in particular. I don't think there's a huge difference
there at all. I think that's I think that since again, since John
returned from that first injury. I think there's been a pretty substantial difference.
That's always been that underrated defender for sure, Like Jah has been better than
that. If John has been better defensively this season since coming back from his
initial injury, I would agree to think that there's like this huge gap between
the two based off their responsibilities, I would disagree. I think John Rant's
role is probably more streamlined on certain nights based off the talent he has around
him. But yeah, I'm just it's look, that's your I'm not even
trying. I feel like I was being an asshole when I was saying that
I don't agree with you. I don't think I've just ever disagreed with you.
More. I'm like the approach to something which I guess is good for
podcasting. We were worried about banging this thing out in twenty minutes third team.
We are. I'm not trying to be contraried or anything. I feel
like this year has been really difficult to evaluate statistically because we had that period
It feels like ages ago at this point, but we had that period where
there was such limited availability that a lot of things got really thrown off in
a way that can't be remedied for the whole year. So I found myself
taking more of an anecdotal, observation based approach this year than I ever have
before. And I think we're just seeing some of that come up right now
and look, just to be clear so that it doesn't make it look like
I'm this giant ass hat who's dismissing what you say. I have Jason Tatum
in the top ten of my MVP ballot and neither Kevin Durant nor lebron Na.
Yet I just Putatim on my third team All MBA. Like I said,
I'm waiting playing time a lot in that. See me, it's harder
to separate those two things, Like I find myself defaulting to my MVP ballot
when I place these because I don't view all NBA as just like, let's
put the best players in a vacuum, so much as the guys who have
had the best season and things that weigh into that MVP conversation way into that
as well. I think the difference is that I don't think you need were
the MVP. When you're talking about the value injected. There's a specific type
of value you're looking for. I don't think that value is as integral to
the all NBA discussion, where you can focus more on individual I feel like
I'm I feel like internally I'm consistent between those two though, where I do
discredit once we reach a certain extent. But I don't like way, you
know, the lack of team success heavy on the air quotes for those who
aren't watching this on video with Yokich just Denver Nuggets versus Jannie's Milwaukee Bucks.
Like to me that discrepancy is irrelevant, is explained away by context, and
then when we to the Lakers, it's a different story, and which I
don't think there's a problem with that, I guess I just think you're ascribing
too much value to the role that Lebron has played and where the Lakers are.
It feels like his biggest fault is not being able to help them escape
a situation that they're not built to escape even with him, And if you
want to I would not respect that's wrong. I respect all your opinions.
I'd probably understand more of what you're doing if you're flat out just saying they
wouldn't fucking be here if he didn't advocate for the Russell Westbrook trade, and
I would understand that position more than the one that's that honestly doesn't play a
part of it. It's it's hard to explain. It's just like, I
feel like he's propped up this year by the fact that he's a thirty seven
year old with a chance for the scoring title, and like, to me,
that doesn't matter. I call him age thirty four before I made him
younger. I don't know why to call him age. To me, like
the age is irrelevant. It makes it cooler, it makes it more impressive,
it doesn't give him a case. But I feel like a lot of
the value ascribe to Lebron has been like, look what he's doing at this
advanced age. But yeah, like an earlier version of Lebron, a better
version of Lebron, is probably carrying this team. I'm not comparing the two,
but I'm just saying, like, it's just because he can't lift this
team doesn't mean that other players couldn't. You're so you're saying the Lakers of
today would be better with Jason Tatum than Lebron James this season. Maybe absolute,
I won't even I won't even entertain that. And what you also see,
I don't. So you're saying that what he's doing can't be applied.
If the Lakers were better, he wouldn't uplift them. Like that's my whole
thing is like what Lebron is doing right now can absolutely translate to a much
better version of the Lake if the Lakers are around Lebron were better, I
think the way he plays is better. I don't. I don't think that
Lebron really goes into a season trying to win the scoring title so much just
trying to make the right play. And that's show the right play is scoring
because no one's around him? Again, is the right play? Triple clutching
and then airballing fade away three pointer when you could have passed the ball to
an open teammate. How many times he done that in a very pivotal game?
How many times has he done that? Though you're anecdote just the ones
that I can remember, But like, that's not a play that I remember,
Like peak Lebron making. Let's move on to third team because second teak
way too long. So just just to recap, I have Steph John Morant,
Jason Tatum, Kevin Durrett, Carl Anthony Towns. I have Steph Chris
Paul Lebron. I made the Kevin Durant switch. I need to change that
in my document. And Karl Anthony Towns. That was so much time spent
on such minor discrepancies. Third Team, we both already know. We have
Rudy Gobert. I have Chris Paula Lebron because I still respect what they're doing
this year. So we have Rudy Gobert is as the center. Though is
there a case for did you consider Bam over him at all? Very briefly,
I mean, it's it's tough because, like usually, Gobert is the
far and away favorite for Defensive Player of the Year and all that, and
he's really not this year. But he's still been pretty damn good on defense,
and you know, his his offensive game, though limited though a lower
volume, is always so efficient. I mean, he's very good at what
he does. What he does is inherently limited, but he excels in that
role. And had Bam been available for the whole season, I think he's
probably getting third team this year, but he wasn't, and he isn't.
I gave Rudy Gobert that does more with less Bumpierre. I don't agree with.
I'm sure you saw that him or Joe Ellenbiad or both of them just
said, you know, perimeter players are responsible for one person or two things.
I'm responsible for everyone. I don't think that's the case for every big
man. I would point to DeAndre Ayton, who's very much a backline communicator.
But because mcale bridges exists, he's going to give Phoenix's defense its form.
To me more than eighton. Wouldn't think it's fair to every perimeter player
in today's NBA because there are so many switch happy schemes that are difficult to
pull off see Marcus Smart. And Yeah, my point was Rudy Gobert is
responsible for everyone because the Jazz have not given him any alternative other than to
be responsible for everyone. And I'm that might under sell roy Sony a little
bit. Like that's it. And Mike Conley's probably better defensively at this point
than like Donovan Mitchell, which is a problem in and of itself, so
that I disagreed with, But I had Rudy Gobert second, I might consider
putting the honest above him in the Defensive Player of Year about he's still in
my top three because the Jazz are elite defensively with non elite talent around him
for the most part when he is on the floor. That drives his value
here for me, and I'm problem saying that if Bam had played more,
maybe it's more of a conversation. He's been lighting it up on offense leave
me too, so he could be making This might be the one that I
think could change. When you look at the guards here, this became a
little bit of a problem spot for me. I have Trey Young and John
Moran, you have Chris Paul and Trey Okay, the tray is just so
fucking good. I'm like ridiculous. Just this Hawks season has has been a
disaster through and through except for him. Imagine what this team would have been
without Trey Young because his ability. I think what impresses me the most about
Trey Young, beyond the scoring explosions, beyond the passing, beyond the complete
lack of defense, is the way that he is able to improve throughout a
game. It is. It's just unbelievably impressive how he diagnoses what a team
is doing to stop him and adjust to it in the same game. Because
I think a lot of times you see the best players, they dictate what
happens and dominate from there. He takes a more passive, a growth approach
at the start of the game, figures out the best way to exploit it,
and then he exploits it. So that's why we see just audacious second
half performance after second half performance, and why he's able to put up these
twelve and fifteen point fourth quarters in high levered situations because he's figured out what
the other team is doing to stop the Atlanta offense. And his ability to
do that on a consistent basis throughout this season and even keep a Hawks team
with so many disappointing performances and so many significant injuries in the mix for a
play in spot and a competitive Eastern Conference has been really impressive. He reett
Bauer, longtime listener, and we DM a lot shout out to him.
Pointed out when we were having the job rat versus tray discussion, he was
surprised that you won picked jaw, as was I, and to that,
neither of us mentioned that Trey Young's game is built to age so much better
because of the types of shots he's getting, where a lot of stuff for
jobs still predicated on his explosion. I echo everything you said there, and
there's the level of difficulty ascribed his role. It's somewhat on him. I
really and maybe the Hawks coaching staff. I would like to see him get
in more actions away from the ball. Do they have the personnel to do
that? And I buy that, I mean playmakers. They have the scores,
but do they have the secondary playmakers? Probably not. So he's doing
a lot of this by necessity. And this is just someone who is in
the top five of both unassisted twos and unassisted threes while also being in the
top five of assists on three pointers and then assist at the rim. He
is one of the most valuable players in the game. I was trying to
figure out a way, and I'm going to use this as a segue into
the forwards. I was trying to figure out a way to get Pascal Siakam
on here. And if I wasn't, if I was less of a coward,
I'd probably have Pascal Siakim and Jayson Tatum. I have Damar and Jason
Tatum. Just because I looked at Siakam versus Damar. The conclusions I came
to is it's closer than I think most people are gonna think. When you
and I even I was looking at their on off splits, I was looking
at how the Raptors performed when it was Siakam with alf and Fleet versus Derosen
without Leavine. Those performances were so similar. Siakim is so much clearly more
valuable on defense, but Damara Rosen is going to give you just as a
lower turnover guy who can work within tighter space is better, there's more value
to him on offense. What made the difference for me is that Damar has
been unreal in crunch time this year. For the most part, he has
won the Bulls probably an extra like five to ten games just by being just
a couple of wins. Even beyond that he's drawing. They've outscored opponents by
fifty five points in crunch time with him on the court. That is a
huge margin relative to to just how how little of a small the minute sample
size you're working with. That was the difference for me. I considered putting
him at guard and leaving Trey Young off. I ultimately couldn't do that,
and so Siakam was just I think people are gonna be like, oh,
Whe's Donovan Mitchell. Siakam was the tough one for me to leave off.
So my my third team ends up sitting at John Morant, Trey Young,
demardros and Jason Tam and Rudy Gobert. I feel same fifteen people did we
I didn't even doesn't even pay attention to that that's did. My last point
on Trey is that I do think that even though the Hawks aren't even guaranteed
to be in the postseason proper, Trey Young can beat any team in a
series. As bad as this Hawks team has been. I don't think you
want to play Trey Young in the playoffs because if he catches fire, like
this Hawks team could topple anyone in a seven game series. I would say,
look what he did to the next last year. But that's like not
that's doesn't mean that is look at I mean they haven't to. I guess
the argument you can make about if you wanted to put the Rose in as
a guard and then put Siakam in here, I would listen because like the
Raptors have been better with Siakam on the court than the Hawks have been with
Trey. Ditto for the bulls with them are and stuff, But Trey's role
is just so all encompassing and like the efficiency doesn't get torpedoed by the fact
that he has to take these shots and they're responsible for so much of the
playmaking where I think that with Siakam, he just has more outlets and can
be more deferential, And I would argue in certain situations Toronto prefers him to
be more deferential. We've seen it with the way they've tried to groom Scotty,
like they've run part of their trench side offense through Scottie Barnes at points.
That's just Trey doesn't have that luxury exactly, the zach Lavine, like,
they don't have that second best player there. So ye, even Siakam
off hurts, would you have does? Would you have considered him over tomorrow?
Though? Like that was a choice that came down to for me and
I couldn't do it. No, I didn't really. I think one of
the biggest mistakes that people make in analysis at this point of the season is
forgetting that every game matter is the same, that a win in October is
the same as a win in April, even if it feels different because of
the stakes at the end of a year, Like if you've gotten the wins
early, then you don't need the win at the end. So I think
that we have devalued the torrid run that DAMARDA. Rosen was on in the
first quarter of the season, where he was like a legitimate MVP front runner
at that premature stage of the season, putting up scoring numbers literally not seen
since Michael Jordan on jaw dropping efficiency numbers in a way that is typically anathema
to the way that the NBA operates today. So he I had like that
narrative element, the statistical element, the winning of the MVP debate for the
longest time too. Yeah, So I think I think we forget about that
and because of that, Like no, I was close to putting Siakam over
Lebron, and I just I couldn't do it. I would have respected that
by the way, just based off it was. It was legitimately close,
but ultimately, like it comes, it came down not to keep really relitigating
this, but I was comfortable dropping Lebron below Durant and Tatum because of their
roles on those teams, and as you just said, like the Raptors are
running crunch time stuff through Scotty Barnes. So Siakam has been an all NBA
caliber player. But I just I couldn't justify that because at that point,
I think the Lebron has been on a team that hasn't been any good.
That argument loses a little bit of its luster when you're comparing it to a
guy who has been really fucking good but has not been carrying. I have
a final question for you before we get out of here. Let's say I
have my fourth and fifteen to go over too. Well, there's honorable mentions,
but first I have to ask you. Let's say that the NBA made
Lebron or Siakham, because this would impact I have them eligible at center,
and look if they're gonna make him beat and Yoka's eligible at forward. Let's
say they made one of them eligible at center, would you have put either
of them over Rudy Gobert, which then would have allowed Yeah, I would
end up having Siam and Lebron on that final third team spot. I think
I'm with you. Yeah, So that's something that'll be something to look for.
I don't think Siakham it's not going to happen. It's not. It
won't happen even if he's eligible. I'm curious to see if he would be
eligible, and I almost I would have to look at it, but I
feel like Lebron might have played more center this year then siakam thank totally anyway,
So honorable mentions, you have two teams worth of so why don't you
go through yours because I'm sure that there's just overlap, Like if we do
that too, I feel like I need to say that, like Lebron has
influenced how I watch basketball and think about basketball more than any other player of
my lifetime. Like I have been such a huge fan of his throughout his
career and have literally written articles about why I think he's the best basketball player
ever, even if he might not necessarily topple Michael Jordan as the goat.
So like this is hard for me to say I don't make any of these
decisions or picks to be inflammatory or to like provoke a response like I just
I had trouble putting him any higher than this. Yeah, way to walk
back an entire podcast. If you're just shitting all over the goat, congratulations,
You're just not gonna let me have that. No, I'm not cool,
like I said, I respect everything you say. I've just never fundamentally
and that's fine. That's fine if you make a fourth team or am I
allowed to give you my think you have a fifth team? Sure, my
fourth team would have been Donovan Mitchell at guard along with you. This is
this was what agonized it for me, is do we make Jimmy Butler eligible
as a guard? We do not? I don't. I didn't. I
went Donovan Mitchell, Dejeante Murray, Jimmy Butler, Pascal Siakam and bam Adebio
would have been the exact same fourth team. Brandon Ingram. Was tough for
me to leave off of this one if I'm going to leak in fifteen,
but please carry on my fifth team because I had the exact same fourth was
Fred Van Vleet, Darius Garland, Brandon Ingram, Jaylen Brown, and Jared
Allen. So no, Robert Williams the third your defensive player of the year.
Yeah, no, Robert Williams the third didn't make one of your five
on the eight teams. Wow, it doesn't do enough on offense for that.
That's totally fair enough, as I kicked the charge out of the wall.
It's really hard to leave Zach Lavine off all of those. Yeah,
it was mine. Who was your fifteam again? Fifteen was Fred van Vleet,
Darius Garland, Jaylen Brown, Brandon Ingram, and Jared Allen. I
didn't know what to do, so it ultimately came down when I was just
building my fourth team, because I think you could get into this if you
were building any team, like oh, we went to seventh team, but
they were still a decision you had to make. But Donovan Mitchell versus Van
Fleet versus Dejeant Murray discussion was really difficult to me. To me, Dejante
Murray was was the first He and Siaka and Butler were like the unabashed locks
for my fourth year, I thought about Dejante Murray versus Trey Young for a
second before deciding it wasn't actually much of a debate, So it was it
was more Donovan Mitchell versus Fred Van Vleet was my toughest fourth team decision.
And it's just I feel but I feel like I'm like like discounting when Fred
van Fleet is done, and this is just it feels bad. Yeah,
it's so difficult and as you said, like we have this no matter how
deep we go, like no matter where you cut it off, there's a
tough exclusion. Well, this was awesome and definitely not I don't know what
this podcast is going to clock in at when we're done. Definitely not thirty
minutes like we were worried about both. Well, sorry about that defense and
all rookies. That will be a podcast we do next week at some point.
We'll see if those are more streamlined or not. Please remember to rate,
review, and subscribe to this podcast wherever you get your podcast, Where
Were Everywhere? Follow up, Subscribe to us on YouTube, join our discord.
Channel links for in the podcast description. Follow us on Instagram, TikTok,
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TikTok until next time. Leave you with a shout out to the one the
only would have made my fifth team All NBA if I went that far,
Frank hio Keen