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PW Torch and Spreaker bring you the
Wade Killer Pro Wrestling Podcast. It's time

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00:02:27.879 --> 00:02:31.800
for this week's Interview Classic, where
Wade Killer interviews one of pro wrestling's newsmakers.

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Ten years ago this month, I
interviewed David Shoemaker from then ESPN's grant

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Land website. He has become a
commentator you might have seen in some documentaries

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over the years, and he joined
me for a discussion of the evolution of

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mainstream coverage to pro wrestling. Also
the Triple H interview in particular where he

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called me out. Also thoughts on
unionizing, racism, and rest writing his

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book The Lack of a Comprehensive,
Definitive Vincmentmann biography, thoughts on Chris Benwa

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and much more. This originally dropped
on November eighth, twenty thirteen, and

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it is today's win Keller Pro Wrestling
Podcast Interview Classic for Wednesday, November fifteenth,

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twenty twenty three. Welcome to the
p W Torch Live Cast. I

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am Wade Keller, editor and publisher
of the Pro Wrestling Torch weekly newsletter since

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nineteen eighty seven, and also pwtorch
dot Com the website since nineteen ninety nine.

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The PW Torch apps on iPhone,
Android, Amazon Kindlefire, Windows phones

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and Samsung Smart TVs and Blu Ray
Players free app downloadable this year with the

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newest versions. And also host of
the PW Torch Live Cast since late two

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thousand and nine. And it is
Friday, November eighth, twenty thirteen,

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and Friday means it is Interview Friday. And I'm pleased to introduce today's guest

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and author of a new book hot
off the presses The Squared Circle, Life,

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Death and Professional Wrestling, David Chumaker
aka Themassmen at grant Land dot com.

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David, Welcome to the show.
Thanks for having me, Wade.

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Awesome to have you on the show. Your new book is out, you're

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starting to get feedback from it.
It has to be exciting for you putting

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in. How long do you work
on the book? Probably about a year

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and a half, Just like working
on the book. Some of this stuff

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started off as you know essays I
had written on deadspend, but it was

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a solid year and a half slog
to get the book done. And you're

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used to the instant gratification of oh
I got something witty to say on Twitter.

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Say if you get feedback, or
you write an essay for grant Land

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and you got some feedback. It's
has to be a whole different world as

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a writer to put a year and
a half into something, give or take,

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and then had the editors go through
with the publishers go through it,

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and you're anticipating the feedback, but
it doesn't happen as instantaneously as we're kind

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of used to in this era.
No, it's a totally different thing.

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I mean, listen, I've worked
in the book publishing industry for ten years,

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so you know, it's I would
think that I would have been more

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prepared for it, but it's totally
just a shockingly different thing. I mean,

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it's it's you know, and it's
not even just instant gratification. It's

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the instant like I want to hear
the negative feedback immediately, you know,

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like I want to know. I
want to know when I write something bad

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right away so I can just like
go to the bar and forget about it.

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But like and also just weird little
things like corrections, you know.

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It's it's so it's so reassuring to
know that if I write them, you

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know, if I write SummerSlam instead
of Survivor series, just because I have

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a brain fart, that my editor
can change that, even if it's noted.

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It's just better if it's you know, so you don't have to constantly

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hear about it. In this case, any errors I make are there for

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the life of the paper, I
guess. So well, it's it's a

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totally different world. Yeah, I
mean, for thirteen and twenty nine weeks

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of my life doing the Progressing Torture
newsletter, there's not a morning I haven't

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woken up after deadline knowing that while
I was sleeping the newsletter was being published

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with the thought entering my mind,
Oh my god, what did I write

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last night? Yeah, it's like
the old the old. Uh, it's

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like the Lewis Black Choke who he
said that like every every time that every

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every April fifteenth, every time every
American like seals the envelope with their taxes

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in it and puts it in the
mail, they just think to themselves,

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well, this might be the year
I go to jail, you know.

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But it's just so it's yeah,
it's you can never. You're never comfortable.

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You're never You're never comfortable. Man. Well, I want I want

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to give a little biographical information for
you, for listeners who don't know who

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you are, don't know why you
wrote a book, don't know what your

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books about. I want to cover
those bases, and then I want to

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get in another heart of the book. And also because you follow wrestling today,

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I want to talk about current storylines. I want to talk about WWE

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and the storyline going on as big
show in Triple Ah and get your thoughts

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on that. I want to open
up the full mindes and the emails.

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If you are someone who's read this
book already or a fan of David's work

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on grantline dot com, we absolutely
invite and welcome your phone calls. The

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number to call is six four six
seven two one nine eight two eight six

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four six seven two one two.
Wait. You can also email us your

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question if you can't call PW Torch
Live Cast at gmail dot com. Simple

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enough, PW Torch Live Cast at
gmail dot com. VPP members, of

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course, can use a VIP express
lane if they want to get ahead in

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line. David, give us a
little background about you as a wrestling fan.

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And I know you get as tired
of telling the stories I probably do

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when people ask, but how did
you get into writing about wrestling as an

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occupation and now a book author?
Well, I mean it was it was

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serendipity, really, I mean I
well, of course, I grew up

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a wrestling fan. I mean my
entire life. I've been a huge wrestling

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fan, and I like I love
I've moved to New York, I don't

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know, eleven twelve years ago or
something like that, and like I said,

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was working and publishing and had a
buddy who's kind of a friend of

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a friend who was an editor at
dead Spin, and I would send him

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wrestling stories when I thought they merited
sort of pop culture relevance, and they

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would do a little posts on them
and they started doing really well. I

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mean and this is you know,
I mean, like you've been doing God's

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work for a long time, but
you know, it's easy for people to

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forget that. Like, you know, five years ago, even like blogs

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were weird about covering wrestling, you
know, I mean that TMZ as a

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whole channel dedicated to it, but
that's it's a pretty new thing. And

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I would send them, and you
know, I would send them all those

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stories. And after they we did
well a few times, the editor came

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to me and said, just,
you know, can you give me some

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new content. We got to do
something. The wrestling they're doing. These

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people love this stuff, and so
you know, we went back and forth

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and started a calumn called or that
became Dead Wrestler of the Week, which

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was you know, obviously titled to
irritate people and to get attention, but

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you know, it started off in
little short essays about about you know,

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my my idols who had died too
early, and pretty quickly evolved into just

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really really long tributes and essays about
their entire lives and careers and what they

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represented to people like me who grew
up wrestling fans. And after I had

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done that for I don't know,
a year and a half or something like

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that. Two years I got really
lucky and Grantlin contacted me and said to

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see if I wanted to cover the
current product, and I said, hell

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yes, And that's you know,
it was about the same time that I

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signed up with Grantlin that the that
the book deal came together. So so

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yeah, it's been pretty much full
time wrestling obsession for the past couple of

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years. Are you a writer by
trade through journalism degree or is it something

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you picked up freelancing and kind of
just over time, Like like probably a

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lot of people, probably the vast
majority of people who work in book publishing

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in New York. I wanted to
write fiction, and I got an MFA

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and all that good stuff, and
then, you know, quickly learned that

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it's really hard to be an editor
and a writer at the same time because

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those things just occupied the same part
of your brain. And it was actually

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only after I got out of editing
that I that I was able to able

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to write full time and and and
yeah, I mean just sort of sort

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of learned taught myself how to how
to write this sort of thing on the

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fly. I mean, thankfully,
I've been good friends with a lot of

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established writers for for a long time, and I think I learned a lot

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through osmosis, But but yeah,
it was, it was it was just

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sort of a love of writing in
general, and then sort of, you

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know, figured out my style as
I went along. Were you more into

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magazine style writing, fiction writing or
journalism as as your college training and goal

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more fiction writing and then But I
always had I always had like a crazy

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affection for old for old boxing writing. Yeah, I always always had.

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I mean I'm standing in my room
right now, and I can show you

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that. I mean I'm looking right
right at you know, W. C.

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Hines and aj Leebling and all.
I mean just like that kind of

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stuff just was I mean, I
read I read fiction from that era too,

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you know. I mean that's just
sort of like a time where I

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really I really appreciate the style and
uh and you know I think that I

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think that, you know, there's
obviously a strong connection between between I mean,

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I like the old boxing writing way
more than I ever liked boxing.

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And I like boxing, but it's
just not it's it's the way that they

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just sort of turned all the turned
every fight and every fighter into a demi

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god and that's just sort of like, you know, that really informs what

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I do when I when I was
doing the Dead Wrestler Staff and what I

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wrote in the book, because you
know, all these guys were were larger

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than life. You know, there
were a real life superheroes. There are

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are Greek gods and their mortality sort
of you know, when you have to

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consider their mortality, it really throws
you for a loop. Yeah, it

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comes across in the style of writing
in your book The Squared Circle, Life,

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Death and Professional Wrestling that it to
my ears as I'm reading it.

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It it doesn't feel and this is
not a value judgment at all. It's

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just kind of a style judgment or
a style evaluation. It comes across exactly

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if you described it, like now, I kind of get where your influence

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has come from. Because even reading
The Fall Guys and whatever happened to Gorgeous

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George, which you had to do
as research for the book if you had

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in previously, there's that old style
wrestling writing too, and there's the language

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use in the way you approach it. It's kind of more long form magazine

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essays than you know, kind of
day to day newsletter deadline or newspaper writing

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type deadline, you know, on
deadline type stock. Yeah, no,

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totally. I mean people will now
and in the journalism world, will throw

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around the adjective purple in a derogatory
way, and I totally get it.

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It's the purple prose, you know, it's just like overwrought and silly and

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and a lot of people are very
deserving of that, you know, from

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time to time. But that book, Fall Guys, is like the purpliest

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purple prose you've ever read. But
it's beautiful. I mean, it's just

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like such a great old book.
And if any I'm sure, I'm sure

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your readers mostly know about it,
but if they don't, I think it's

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00:12:50.399 --> 00:12:54.759
available as an ebook now for basically
no money, and you can go and

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00:12:54.759 --> 00:12:58.159
grab it. I mean, that
thing is that that's a that's a book

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well worth reading. And whatever happened
to Gory George Actually yeah, I stumbled

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upon that like really late in the
process comparatively to a lot of the other

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stuff, and was just my mind
was blown by it. I mean,

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that that book existed and that somehow
Knowinge had told me about it. I

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was just like I was, I
was floored. It's most of those books

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are great. Yeah. In the
last twenty five years of doing the Torch,

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we've had different ways of having readers
ask us, you know, what

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book should I read? And Fall
Guys and what are Happened to God?

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To George are the top two on
our list always if you want to know

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about what happened before you know,
nineteen seventy. Yeah, and those are

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they're not They're practically the only two, you know. And then you add

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some people reflecting backwards, you know, Louces with Hooker writing about in the

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first person way, you know,
his experiences during that era. But those

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are the two gems. And I
mean when I got my cop I got

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my hands on photocopies of them and
then made photocopies for my staff and sent

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them to them and said, read
this. We need to know this,

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you know, to write intelligence,
you know, in an informed way about

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wrestling history. So yeah, but
yeah, yeah, style of writing it

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it's in that line. Yeah,
I mean, and you talk about be

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says book too, which I enjoyed, but you know, it's it's it's

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a weird world that wrestling's in that
like, so that you know, ninety

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percent of the books that have come
out about it are like memoirs, you

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know, and and it's you know, for a pretty precise audience, with

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the exception of Foley and Hogan and
and maybe Jericho. Uh, and you

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know, it's it's a I mean, I love so many of those books,

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but it's just a different you talk
about styles like, that's not that's

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just a totally different enterprise to be
writing memoirs and and you know, so

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like you know, reading those books
we just talked about definitely informed what I

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was trying to do with this book. Absolutely. Yeah. I just last

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week we had on the authors of
Mad Dog's mitcheson Screwjobs you untold story of

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a Montreil shape the world of wrestling, and love that book. Yeah,

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you know, and it's like those
are the books where it's it's people who

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are investigative reporters or journalists by or
historians by trade, who dive in and

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and write, you know, without
that first person bias that you know,

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autobiographical or memoir style writing can have
that. I think ads you know,

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Dave Melter's tributes you know with uh, you know, the biographies of the

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of the wrestlers who died. So
speaking of which, what was your mission

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statement when writing this book? What
was the germ of the idea? Uh?

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And and and how did that change
as you wrote the book? Well,

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it started off pretty simply. Is
just like it was going to be

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a collection of the dead Wrestler of
the Week pieces, or that was going

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to be you know, uh,
it's going to be you know, the

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dead Wrestler of the Week pieces i'd
written and then half new ones or something

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like that. But when I started
working with an agent and then the editors

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that I was talking to at the
beginning, you know, they all wanted

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something bigger, you know. I
mean there's just the New York mainstream publishing

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is not, like, you know, super eager to publish wrestling books.

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So they if they were going to
do it, they wanted to be able

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to say, you know, this
is you know, this is the whole

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history of wrestling or the thing.
You know, if they wanted it to

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be more than just a collection of
essays. So you know, it was

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just like I had the stuff that
I wanted to write. I wanted to

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pay tribute to, you know,
like I said, my idols who had

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passed. But but you know,
I knew that I had to find a

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middle ground between what they were asking
for and then what I was doing.

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So it just sort of evolved organically
from there. I started doing the research

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on the kind of way way back, and when I started, you know,

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the first I covered the first probably
fifty years of you know, I

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mean like nineteen hundred and nineteen fifty
in one big essay at the front.

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And that took a long long time. Oh yeah. But once I got

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through that, I kind of had
found the voice of the book, and

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then started rewriting all the dead some
of the deadsmin pieces that I had done

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in that vein. And then when
I kind of had my had my rhythm,

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I started going back and find it
and really polishing up you know,

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new chapter is. Yeah, I
did, you know, wrote about gorgeous

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George and the fabulous Mula and people
and you know, the von Erics,

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people from from you know, further
back in time and uh and and you

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know, basically just felt my way
through it. I you know, there

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was a point where I was about
seventy five percent done and I sat down

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with my editor and I was like, here's what I have, and here's

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a list of all the people I
could possibly add to it and and just

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ideas I can add to it,
and he helped me figure out what,

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you know, what what was gonna
what was going to be in there.

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There are a lot of people that
I wanted to write about that I thought,

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you know, with every every every
wrestler that I covered, I wanted

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him to kind of represent something bigger
than himself. So you know, I

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would have loved to write about,
uh, you know, the Grams down

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Florida. But I cover a lot
of that ground with the von Erics.

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And you know, the book didn't
have a jobber, so you know,

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every card needs a job or so
my book needed s. D. Jones.

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So it was that kind of just
decision making that went on at the

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very end. Very good are you
What kind of feedback are you getting so

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far? And what's most surprising about
that feedback? Good? Our bet the

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feedback's been good so far. I
mean, I don't know, I think

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that separately from I mean we're talking
about the difference between writing for online.

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You know, it's probably a lot
of more effort to just you know,

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read a book that you don't like
and to say negative things about it.

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So maybe so maybe that'll work out
in my favor, but I you know,

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it's been the feedback's been great,
you know, and I I've been

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going around trying to promote it on
on you know, the radio, and

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actually the weirdest thing is that I've
is that like just the conservative media has

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really latched on to me, uh
and they and it's been great they but

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like Fox and Friends had me on
and and I miss had me on and

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this and it kind of keeps going. But I think that uh, I

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don't think I quite I quite understood
how how uh how vital a resource that

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would be to mind. But it's, you know, it's it's good for

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me, I guess, I think
from reading the book. And I've had

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to jump around a little bit because
it just came out and I try to

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read every page of book before interview
somebody, and I haven't done that with

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00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:03.200
yours. But I read a good
part of it. Uh. And I'm

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not reading it sequentially because I actually
don't think you have to given no,

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no, not at all. And
that's the way. That's the way I

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read it. I mean, it's
you can read it cover to cover and

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you know, it goes in,
it goes in a timeline. But uh,

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you know, it's it's if you
if people have told me they keep

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00:19:17.200 --> 00:19:18.279
it in their bathroom, and I
take that as a compliment, you know,

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it's totally yeah. And and the
uh, the the content of the

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book, it to me is something
that you could pass to I'll just throw

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00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:32.160
the name because you brought him up, don Imus. Let's say don Imus

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was a wrestling fan at some point, not really so much now, but

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kind of keeps an eyeing it,
but he's always found it fascinating and he's

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00:19:38.920 --> 00:19:42.960
never understood it, and he wants
he has he knows he has some false

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00:19:42.960 --> 00:19:48.759
preconceptions and some false assumptions, and
he wants to know the truth. And

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he sort of like, this is
a book that kind of gives you a

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00:19:52.039 --> 00:19:56.799
really nice overview from the beginning of
professional wrestling at the turn of the century,

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00:19:56.880 --> 00:20:00.759
the last century through you know Chris
Benwell, you know, for the

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00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:04.160
and a little beyond that. And
and that's I think it's really I think

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00:20:04.160 --> 00:20:07.640
it would be really a book you'd
want to had to somebody and say,

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00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:12.200
if you want to understand wrestling,
but not necessarily get so deep into it

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that you just feel lost in the
details that don't interest you. And I

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00:20:15.880 --> 00:20:18.839
don't want this to be I think
hardcore wrestling fans would enjoy too, But

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I think this is a book that
really accomplishes that in a way where perhaps

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the Montreal History Book would not appeal
to don Imus. Yeah, I mean,

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that's that's definitely part of what I
try to do. I mean,

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people that have read my stuff on
Grantland. I mean the one thing I

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00:20:33.359 --> 00:20:37.279
get criticized for the most for my
my Grountland stuff from hardcore fans is that

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they, you know, is that
I repeat things that they know. You

325
00:20:40.359 --> 00:20:42.119
know, I just will throw it
in the side that explains who John Cena

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is in every piece, just in
case someone's reading it for the first time.

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Even if it's like a three word
description or something like that. People

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00:20:48.319 --> 00:20:51.200
are just like, why are you
telling me this stuff. I'm just like,

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00:20:51.240 --> 00:20:53.799
well, you know, Grantland Grayland
is a sort of broader audience,

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00:20:53.799 --> 00:20:56.200
and I just hope that some you
know, I take it as part of

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my mission to try to When people
tell me like they're watching wrestling for the

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00:21:00.519 --> 00:21:02.960
first time in ten years because they
read something I wrote, I think that's

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00:21:02.960 --> 00:21:06.319
the greatest compliment in the world,
you know. So that's uh, that

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00:21:06.839 --> 00:21:10.240
David. People who say that probably
have not read a book that has footnotes

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00:21:10.279 --> 00:21:11.559
in it. I had a college
professor who was just like, my favorite

336
00:21:11.599 --> 00:21:14.519
part of a book are the footnotes, because that's whate all the good stuff

337
00:21:14.559 --> 00:21:15.599
is, because you know, the
stuff that falls out of the flow of

338
00:21:15.599 --> 00:21:19.279
the story you're telling. Yeah,
it's the best nuggets. And yeah.

339
00:21:19.319 --> 00:21:22.839
So, I mean somebody who complains
that you're putting things in perspective for a

340
00:21:22.839 --> 00:21:25.200
wide audience, I think is being
a little self centered about Yeah. No,

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00:21:25.240 --> 00:21:26.799
I mean I think I think people
people always want to complain, but

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00:21:26.839 --> 00:21:30.759
the h but I mean, we
wrestling fans complain. I mean, I

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00:21:30.759 --> 00:21:33.400
do it myself. We all complain
louder than most than most other people.

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So it's part it's part of our
part of our dialect. But but uh,

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but yeah, that's definitely what I
tried to do. And uh and

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and I hope that, uh,
I hope that some you know, people

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who are just interested in find out
what wrestling's about try to read it.

348
00:21:48.359 --> 00:21:52.480
You know, we we wrestling fans
are you know, it's the wrestling community

349
00:21:52.759 --> 00:21:57.200
is really awesome, Like it's really
great and being and you know kind of

350
00:21:57.240 --> 00:22:00.799
really really getting to be a full
part of it over the past few years

351
00:22:00.839 --> 00:22:04.200
has been incredibly gratifying. But you
know, we can it can be a

352
00:22:04.200 --> 00:22:11.319
pretty insular community at times and U
And one of the things I constantly have

353
00:22:11.359 --> 00:22:14.240
to deal with is people kind of
just like raising their eyebrows at me when

354
00:22:14.279 --> 00:22:17.200
I talk about being a wrestling writer
or as I have this book coming out,

355
00:22:17.839 --> 00:22:19.599
people who aren't fans that is,
and it's and it's, uh,

356
00:22:19.960 --> 00:22:23.359
you know, I think it's just
sad that, I mean, wrestling is

357
00:22:23.400 --> 00:22:27.440
like people always say, like jazz
is like the most American art form,

358
00:22:27.480 --> 00:22:30.160
Like wrestling is the most American art
form, you know. I mean it's

359
00:22:30.200 --> 00:22:33.480
like it's there is so much about
our culture that's built into this and vice

360
00:22:33.559 --> 00:22:37.799
versa, and uh, and you
know, it's sad that just because it's

361
00:22:37.880 --> 00:22:41.799
you know, that it's been a
put on for so long that people just

362
00:22:41.839 --> 00:22:45.960
sort of dismiss it as if it's
not as if it's not worth knowing anything

363
00:22:45.960 --> 00:22:48.559
about. I mean, that's just
like so weirdly closed minded. So anyway,

364
00:22:48.599 --> 00:22:51.960
Yeah, that's definitely part of my
mission with to like, you know,

365
00:22:52.000 --> 00:22:55.200
write a book that that you know, regular people might be able to

366
00:22:55.240 --> 00:22:57.279
read and get something out of and
get some kind of perspective about what this

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whole with the whole for wrestling world
is about. Invite you to email the

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00:23:03.000 --> 00:23:07.599
show with feedback or questions or comments. That email address is Wade Keller Podcast

369
00:23:07.759 --> 00:23:11.640
at petw torch dot com. That's
Wadekeller Podcast at PW torch dot com.

370
00:23:11.720 --> 00:23:15.519
Also welcome your feedback on Twitter.
You can follow us on Twitter at PW

371
00:23:15.559 --> 00:23:21.680
torch and follow me at the Wade
Keller. That's at PW Torch and at

372
00:23:21.799 --> 00:23:30.000
the Wade Keller. Yeah, and
for people who kind of have pay attention

373
00:23:30.039 --> 00:23:33.319
for a for leader wrestling or occasionally
dive in, there's things that happen where

374
00:23:33.319 --> 00:23:36.480
they're like, wow, this must
be the first time this has ever happened.

375
00:23:36.880 --> 00:23:38.359
And then you know it was,
like you mentioned it in the book

376
00:23:38.359 --> 00:23:42.519
where Vince Vincent K. McMahon,
Vince McMahon Juniors as he's called father,

377
00:23:42.960 --> 00:23:47.720
was talking openly about wrestling not being
real and Washington DC newspapers. Yet people

378
00:23:47.720 --> 00:23:49.759
think the focal or is, oh, he would have never stood for wrestling

379
00:23:49.759 --> 00:23:53.160
being talked about as anything but a
pure court Twitter rolled over in his grave.

380
00:23:53.200 --> 00:23:56.319
They did, right, And part
of that, what they say too

381
00:23:56.400 --> 00:24:00.480
is is not speaking ill of the
dead and saying, well, Vince would

382
00:24:00.519 --> 00:24:03.240
not have been happy with Vince intruding
on other promoters territories because they all had

383
00:24:03.279 --> 00:24:08.119
agreements. But of course that's a
little purer than the industry really was.

384
00:24:08.200 --> 00:24:11.720
Also, yeah, but that might
have been a part that maybe that a

385
00:24:11.759 --> 00:24:15.400
little bit more than even exposing the
real fake issue as part of the Vince

386
00:24:15.440 --> 00:24:18.079
Senior folklore, which is it's Vince
Junior intruding on other territories that would have

387
00:24:18.119 --> 00:24:22.519
upset him. But that was not
an isolated incident that happened because vincecuc Man

388
00:24:22.599 --> 00:24:26.440
decided to do it. He did
it because that was the way everything was

389
00:24:26.480 --> 00:24:29.559
going. There used to be local
children shows in the morning with puppets in

390
00:24:29.640 --> 00:24:33.240
every market. Well, eventually because
of national cable and national syndication, there

391
00:24:33.640 --> 00:24:37.359
were national shows for kids, not
local ones anymore. Same thing happened with

392
00:24:37.400 --> 00:24:40.480
pro wrestling. So oh yeah,
I mean and like and intivuate it and

393
00:24:40.519 --> 00:24:42.799
consolidate and Crockett just because like,
you know, they just because they were

394
00:24:42.799 --> 00:24:45.720
just fighting Vince. I mean,
the NWA was I mean, I don't

395
00:24:45.759 --> 00:24:48.240
want to say falling apart, but
it was, it was really coming apart

396
00:24:48.240 --> 00:24:51.799
at the seams because you know,
all of a sudden, everybody in the

397
00:24:51.839 --> 00:24:55.960
world was watching Georgia Championship Wrestling and
realizing that there were other wrestlers out there,

398
00:24:56.039 --> 00:24:57.039
you know, I mean, it
was it was a really it was

399
00:24:57.160 --> 00:25:00.720
the whole world, like you said, though, the whole everything that's changing

400
00:25:00.759 --> 00:25:03.240
and and and you know, Vince
wasn't the only guy that tried to go

401
00:25:03.319 --> 00:25:06.480
national. He was just the only
guy that turned out to be good at

402
00:25:06.519 --> 00:25:10.799
it, So you know it,
you know, it's just it's it's hard

403
00:25:10.799 --> 00:25:12.839
to hate the guy from making money
in that sort of situation. But yeah,

404
00:25:12.839 --> 00:25:15.200
it would have been It would have
been interesting. There's so many parallel

405
00:25:15.240 --> 00:25:18.359
universes that would be great to experience, you know. But one would be

406
00:25:18.640 --> 00:25:22.640
what if Vince McMahon Sr. Didn't
die when he did and live longer.

407
00:25:22.680 --> 00:25:25.599
Would he have been an old Curmudgeons
saying I'm not going to expand and that

408
00:25:25.599 --> 00:25:27.279
would have opened the door for someone
else to inevitably do it, Ted Turner

409
00:25:27.359 --> 00:25:32.160
or whoever to lead the way,
or would Vince Junior have talked his dad

410
00:25:32.160 --> 00:25:33.920
into it and said, no,
we have to do this, or was

411
00:25:33.039 --> 00:25:37.799
what is that if enthusiastically had been
as cutthroat as Vince Junior was about going

412
00:25:37.799 --> 00:25:41.559
after other territories talent. We just
that is really good. I'm actually working

413
00:25:41.559 --> 00:25:44.839
on a like a giant what if
piece or Grantland. I might have to

414
00:25:44.839 --> 00:25:47.720
steal that one for it. I
wouldn't, but I wonder if I mean,

415
00:25:47.839 --> 00:25:51.319
yeah, I mean, I mean, obviously WWF was you know,

416
00:25:51.400 --> 00:25:55.279
benefited from getting out in front of
everybody else. But a lot of it's

417
00:25:55.319 --> 00:25:57.359
aptitude too. I mean, Vince
is just sort of a visionary in the

418
00:25:57.400 --> 00:26:00.079
way that he went about everything.
And like I said, there were you

419
00:26:00.119 --> 00:26:04.079
know, there were other promoters that
tried to start national companies that just sort

420
00:26:04.119 --> 00:26:07.200
of fizzled. Because I'm not talking
about the NWA that you know, that

421
00:26:07.559 --> 00:26:11.720
history is well documented, but there
were other guys that tried to go that

422
00:26:11.799 --> 00:26:15.279
tried to go more national and it
just didn't. It just didn't work.

423
00:26:15.440 --> 00:26:18.000
So it's kind of kind of like
Apple, where you know, people who

424
00:26:18.039 --> 00:26:22.119
know better know that, you know, Android has been ahead on you know,

425
00:26:22.160 --> 00:26:25.240
four out of five features, and
Apple just perfects them before putting them

426
00:26:25.279 --> 00:26:27.960
out exactly. Yeah, the AWA
did pay per view in close circuit before

427
00:26:29.000 --> 00:26:33.319
vincack Mann World Class did national syndication
before Vince McMahon. I mean, there's

428
00:26:33.480 --> 00:26:37.880
everything that Vincent Mann did was hulko
Mania was born in my backyard and I

429
00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:41.039
watched it play out before Hulkamania got
hired by Vince McMahon and you know,

430
00:26:41.200 --> 00:26:47.000
co opted as his discovery and his
invention. Everything Vince did was actually looking

431
00:26:47.039 --> 00:26:49.039
at somebody else doing it and then
just doing it bigger because he was willing

432
00:26:49.039 --> 00:26:51.920
to put it all on the line
and he had the New York market in

433
00:26:51.960 --> 00:26:56.319
his favor. But there's not really
anything vincick Mann has done that somebody else

434
00:26:56.400 --> 00:26:59.400
one of the other promoters didn't in
a sort of half hearted way or a

435
00:26:59.400 --> 00:27:02.480
smaller scale way. Try first.
Yeah, No, you just got to

436
00:27:02.480 --> 00:27:03.119
be the guy that puts it all
together. I mean, you're right,

437
00:27:03.160 --> 00:27:04.799
you got to be You got to
I mean, he's you got to be

438
00:27:04.839 --> 00:27:08.440
the Steve Jobs, the guy that
just like packages it and really really smooth

439
00:27:08.519 --> 00:27:11.519
white plastic to make everybody want it
more, you know. And that's that's

440
00:27:11.559 --> 00:27:17.160
sort of Vince's brilliance because I mean
Star Kate was the first super show,

441
00:27:17.200 --> 00:27:19.319
you know, years before Wrestlmania.
Oh yeah, absolutely, I mean those

442
00:27:19.319 --> 00:27:23.359
star Kates are so great too.
Yes, I do want to interject a

443
00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:26.799
quick plug off if this part of
the discussion fascinated anybody who's new to the

444
00:27:26.799 --> 00:27:30.880
show or miss some shows. Jerry
Jarrett was on last month, or actually

445
00:27:30.920 --> 00:27:36.720
I think September now, so a
little more month ago and talked about a

446
00:27:36.880 --> 00:27:40.000
fascinating time in wrestling, which was
in the mid eighties when all these promoters

447
00:27:40.039 --> 00:27:44.759
were talking about were reelinked from Vince
wick Man's expansion and they all got together

448
00:27:44.799 --> 00:27:48.200
and formed the Pro Wrestling USA group. Eddie Einhorn of the Chicago White Sox

449
00:27:48.240 --> 00:27:52.200
fame was involved in that, and
he just told a great story. Jerry

450
00:27:52.240 --> 00:27:53.839
Jarrett was in on those meetings.
He was instrumental in it, in it

451
00:27:53.960 --> 00:27:57.119
forming, and you know, talking
about all the reasons it's all apart.

452
00:27:57.200 --> 00:28:00.920
Is a fascinating piece of wrestling history. I think that mid eighties was probably

453
00:28:02.720 --> 00:28:08.079
as exciting and enthralling a part of
wrestling history, with so many different stories

454
00:28:08.119 --> 00:28:11.519
and personalities in such a pivotal time. And Jerry Jarrett was a great interview

455
00:28:11.559 --> 00:28:14.759
for people who are interested in wrestling
history. If you're listening to this,

456
00:28:14.839 --> 00:28:17.480
you probably are, so I throwed
that out there for people because it was

457
00:28:17.480 --> 00:28:21.440
a great hour and a half two
hours with Jerry. David Schumaker is my

458
00:28:21.480 --> 00:28:25.880
guest of grant land dot com.
He is writes under the moniker the mass

459
00:28:25.920 --> 00:28:29.640
Man. Why do you get a
moniker and nobody else does? It was

460
00:28:29.680 --> 00:28:32.599
totally an accident, man, I
mean the luckiest accident. I started.

461
00:28:32.599 --> 00:28:36.319
When I started writing for dead Spend. There was an idea in the very

462
00:28:36.359 --> 00:28:37.960
formative stages that a buddy and I
were going to write it together under the

463
00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:41.680
shared pseudonym, and then the buddy
never ended up doing anything and it was

464
00:28:41.720 --> 00:28:45.359
just me, but we kept it
because the editors thought it was really funny.

465
00:28:45.559 --> 00:28:48.559
But it was really it was really
like it really helped my career because

466
00:28:48.559 --> 00:28:52.240
from the very beginning, people in
the comments section were trying to guess who

467
00:28:52.279 --> 00:28:55.039
I was, as if I was
like an established writer who was like slumming

468
00:28:55.079 --> 00:28:59.519
it writing about wrestling, and little
did they know that I was just like

469
00:28:59.519 --> 00:29:03.319
some random dude. So it was
that's that's why, and it just sort

470
00:29:03.319 --> 00:29:06.079
of sticks with you, you know, it's hard to it's when I started

471
00:29:06.079 --> 00:29:07.440
at Grantland, they said asked me
if I wanted to use my real name

472
00:29:07.519 --> 00:29:11.079
or the mask man, and I
was just like you know, I don't

473
00:29:11.079 --> 00:29:12.920
really care. I mean probably you
know, all I have is my dad's

474
00:29:12.920 --> 00:29:15.359
beIN background, so it'll probably help
page you use if I just kind of

475
00:29:15.359 --> 00:29:18.279
stick with the mask man for a
while and then that's that's the way it's

476
00:29:18.319 --> 00:29:22.519
been now where you are now,
in the writing you're doing, You're doing

477
00:29:22.559 --> 00:29:26.359
serious writing. You wrote a serious
book. Does using a moniker, which

478
00:29:26.400 --> 00:29:32.240
nobody else does, undercut what you're
doing and put a winkie face on serious

479
00:29:32.240 --> 00:29:34.240
writing. Yeah, I mean I
think you can probably you can probably argue

480
00:29:34.240 --> 00:29:37.279
that. But it's like, you
know, I mean we're everything now.

481
00:29:37.319 --> 00:29:41.960
I mean I'm not the only guy
on on Grantland that's writing har monicer weirdly.

482
00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:44.519
I mean there's always also like Carlas, I think there might be somebody

483
00:29:44.519 --> 00:29:47.799
else, but there's a it's we're
just in this weird like sort of post

484
00:29:47.839 --> 00:29:49.480
ironic world now. Or I think
you can kind of get away with it.

485
00:29:49.680 --> 00:29:52.680
I mean, everybody that I do, everybody that I've been doing,

486
00:29:53.240 --> 00:29:56.559
put like any radio shows that I've
been on that are more that are mainstream

487
00:29:56.599 --> 00:30:00.279
outlets, you know, I think
they just kind of get a kick out

488
00:30:00.279 --> 00:30:03.640
of it because you know, they're
not going to take wrestling that seriously,

489
00:30:03.720 --> 00:30:06.640
even if they're even if they you
know, want to take the book seriously.

490
00:30:06.880 --> 00:30:11.759
So on some level, I think
it works because like it's clear that

491
00:30:11.839 --> 00:30:15.880
I'm not being that I that you
know, it's that this isn't that well

492
00:30:15.960 --> 00:30:18.599
they think I'm not taking it too
seriously too. You know, there's a

493
00:30:18.599 --> 00:30:22.559
lot of things in wrestling that you're
better off not taking too seriously. And

494
00:30:22.559 --> 00:30:25.680
then there's a lot of things like
you know, like all the wrestlers who

495
00:30:25.680 --> 00:30:30.640
have died that you do take really
seriously, but you know, you don't

496
00:30:30.680 --> 00:30:33.279
watch I mean, you don't have
to watch every episode of Raw and be

497
00:30:33.440 --> 00:30:36.839
is like it'd be so earnest about
it. And so I think that it's

498
00:30:37.079 --> 00:30:40.359
you know, in some ways it
kind of it does reflect the way that

499
00:30:40.440 --> 00:30:45.000
I the way that I interact with
the wrestling. Yeah, I worry with

500
00:30:45.079 --> 00:30:48.880
a book covering unionization, and you
know, great history on that talking about

501
00:30:48.920 --> 00:30:52.440
why that, you know, and
I just some great lines in there about

502
00:30:52.680 --> 00:30:56.480
you know, the the nineteen ninety
nine storyline with the we're WWF brought it

503
00:30:56.559 --> 00:30:59.400
up and you're like a camp I
mean we wrote at the time or like

504
00:30:59.400 --> 00:31:02.400
I can't believe lewf is actually broaching
the subject on the air. My god,

505
00:31:02.759 --> 00:31:03.960
it's you know, it's so crazy. And I've had jesseven turned my

506
00:31:04.039 --> 00:31:07.720
radio show in the early nineties with
similar quotes to what he what you used

507
00:31:07.759 --> 00:31:11.640
you know about the union and Hogan
busting it and all the way through,

508
00:31:11.680 --> 00:31:12.759
and I thought it was very poignant
and accurate that, you know, the

509
00:31:12.759 --> 00:31:15.759
main event wrestlers are the ones,
as you wrote, who had like Brett

510
00:31:15.759 --> 00:31:18.160
Hart, who could have done something
about it, but they don't when they're

511
00:31:18.160 --> 00:31:23.079
in power because they want the millions
of dollars that come with just going along

512
00:31:23.119 --> 00:31:26.480
with a program. But when they
get out then all of a sudden,

513
00:31:26.519 --> 00:31:29.279
you know, they're the heroes who
say wrestling needs a union. I'm waiting

514
00:31:29.319 --> 00:31:33.319
for that top star to sit and
suk man down and go let's do this.

515
00:31:33.559 --> 00:31:34.000
You know, let's do this.
And I want to be the one

516
00:31:34.039 --> 00:31:37.880
who changes the industry for the better. That's going to be my legacy more

517
00:31:37.880 --> 00:31:44.880
than the millions of dollars in my
bank account. In twenty twelve, NXT

518
00:31:45.079 --> 00:31:49.119
transitioned into the developmental system and ultimately
the brand you see today. On the

519
00:31:49.160 --> 00:31:55.680
Torch VIP podcast, NXT eight years
back we'll be taking a weekly look at

520
00:31:55.720 --> 00:32:00.799
this page in NXT's early history.
Joined Kelly Wells and me Tom Stout from

521
00:32:00.880 --> 00:32:05.039
p WT talks NXT every Saturday as
we go eight years back to the day

522
00:32:05.240 --> 00:32:08.599
to track NXT's rising talents and why
they did or didn't work out, exclusively

523
00:32:08.640 --> 00:32:16.240
for PW Torch VIP members. Yeah, No, I mean, I think

524
00:32:16.279 --> 00:32:19.559
I think you're exactly right. You
know, it's hard. It's weird that

525
00:32:19.599 --> 00:32:22.079
we're in a world now where unions
aren't don't have the same sway that they

526
00:32:22.119 --> 00:32:27.000
had, you know, fifty years
ago. And I think a lot of

527
00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:31.079
people of my generation don't take the
issue all that seriously or think it's or

528
00:32:31.119 --> 00:32:34.680
think in the instances where there should
be a union, that unions just sort

529
00:32:34.680 --> 00:32:37.880
of like happen, happened magically.
But like, you know, like I

530
00:32:37.920 --> 00:32:40.240
don't know, but people who were
my age are a little bit older probably

531
00:32:40.279 --> 00:32:45.240
remember playing Techmo Bowl in the old
Nintendo game when like the five biggest quarterbacks

532
00:32:45.279 --> 00:32:46.839
in the league didn't have their names
in the game because they weren't in the

533
00:32:46.960 --> 00:32:50.559
union, you know, I mean, like they they just didn't think it

534
00:32:50.599 --> 00:32:53.880
was worth their time, and and
that's that sort of thing really is like

535
00:32:54.359 --> 00:32:58.680
is a problem. I mean,
it's the biggest it's the biggest problem with

536
00:32:58.680 --> 00:33:04.720
with with unionized and you know,
I'll say over and over again that WWE

537
00:33:04.960 --> 00:33:10.480
has has kind of surprisingly turned into
you know, the best case scenario,

538
00:33:10.839 --> 00:33:16.839
like like the poster child for the
success of unchecked capitalism, sort of like

539
00:33:16.880 --> 00:33:22.480
they've decided that it's in their interest
to provide rehab and to take concussion seriously

540
00:33:22.559 --> 00:33:25.759
and to do all that kind of
stuff. And you know, it is

541
00:33:25.799 --> 00:33:28.920
it does, it helps, it
helps the on the pr front, and

542
00:33:29.119 --> 00:33:31.519
they're good people for doing it.
But you know, it looks let me

543
00:33:31.599 --> 00:33:35.960
jump into because I think what's frustrating
for those of us who have had our

544
00:33:36.000 --> 00:33:37.920
boots on the ground day after day
for two and a half decades covering the

545
00:33:38.039 --> 00:33:42.319
story of WWE is people who ride
in And I'm not saying that's you,

546
00:33:42.359 --> 00:33:45.640
but people are ride in and pat
WW in the back for being good people

547
00:33:45.640 --> 00:33:47.400
for doing this when following this day
to day, week to week, it

548
00:33:47.440 --> 00:33:52.359
took a big pile of bodies.
It took a federal indictment and a steroid

549
00:33:52.359 --> 00:33:57.440
trial. You know, twenty years
ago, it took a massive number of

550
00:33:57.519 --> 00:34:01.480
broken bodies, broken families, broken
lives, and a lot of embarrassment and

551
00:34:01.559 --> 00:34:07.039
a lot of mainstream media coverage from
hardworking mainstream journalists and people like me and

552
00:34:07.079 --> 00:34:09.000
Day Meltzer and Bruce Mitchell who have
been covering this day to day, who

553
00:34:09.079 --> 00:34:14.559
have watched WWE get drags kicking and
screaming only when there was a financial benefit

554
00:34:14.639 --> 00:34:17.079
or when they felt they had to
because of government, senate pressure or mainstream

555
00:34:17.079 --> 00:34:21.920
media pressure to quote then do the
right thing. And so to sit here

556
00:34:22.119 --> 00:34:24.079
and have ww get patted on the
back for doing something that they had to

557
00:34:24.079 --> 00:34:27.440
do, should have done sooner,
and we've been calling for them to do

558
00:34:27.559 --> 00:34:29.679
years before they did it. Well, there were a lot of lives that

559
00:34:29.719 --> 00:34:31.960
could have been saved. That does
get under my skin a little bit because

560
00:34:32.199 --> 00:34:36.920
as much as absolutely good things are
happening from what WWE is doing today and

561
00:34:36.960 --> 00:34:39.320
it's great that they're doing it,
the idea that they volunteered to do it

562
00:34:40.079 --> 00:34:44.599
out of the goodness of their heart
instead of drag kicking and screaming, with

563
00:34:44.719 --> 00:34:49.639
tons and tons and tons of dead
bodies and broken lives and damage done in

564
00:34:49.679 --> 00:34:52.639
the wake of their stubbornness and reluctance
is part of history that I don't think

565
00:34:52.639 --> 00:34:55.000
should be glossed over. No,
no, no, I actually I agree

566
00:34:55.039 --> 00:34:58.119
with you one hundred percent. And
what I was getting at I was basically

567
00:34:58.159 --> 00:35:00.519
just like, now that they're a
public, public being traded company, there

568
00:35:00.599 --> 00:35:06.280
is a financial stake it being at
doing good things. Yeah, And and

569
00:35:06.320 --> 00:35:08.039
I mean I don't I don't think
they should be patted on the back necessarily,

570
00:35:08.119 --> 00:35:12.559
I mean really at all. I
just think that they that in some

571
00:35:12.639 --> 00:35:15.159
sense, this is evidence that,
like you know, success can come without

572
00:35:15.280 --> 00:35:21.119
unionization if there's a financial stake in
it for them. But that doesn't mean

573
00:35:21.119 --> 00:35:22.719
that there's not that there. I
mean, there's still many more things that

574
00:35:22.800 --> 00:35:25.400
could have I mean, many more
good things that could happen if there was

575
00:35:25.400 --> 00:35:29.400
a if there was the wrestler's union. And I don't really know that anybody's

576
00:35:29.440 --> 00:35:32.199
ever answered Darren Aronofski's question sufficiently as
to why these guys aren't either in the

577
00:35:32.199 --> 00:35:37.800
Screen Actors Guild or the or the
the Stuntman's Union, you know. And

578
00:35:37.840 --> 00:35:39.440
it's just like like literally that question. I don't think it's been answered.

579
00:35:40.119 --> 00:35:43.679
I know we've been asking it for
twenty five years, twenty six years in

580
00:35:43.719 --> 00:35:47.000
the Torch, and I mean it's
you know, Jessevnturo in the early nineties

581
00:35:47.119 --> 00:35:50.320
on my radio show and I did
a torch talk for my newspatter with them

582
00:35:50.320 --> 00:35:53.000
and that was brought up. And
it was really disappointing with Jesse David because

583
00:35:53.079 --> 00:35:55.599
when Owen Hart died, and you
have a chapter on that and covered that

584
00:35:55.639 --> 00:36:00.840
well, Jesse spoke out on Larry
King Live. He wrote in a book

585
00:36:00.920 --> 00:36:04.159
that that you know, if wrestling
had a union, one would be alive

586
00:36:04.199 --> 00:36:06.599
today and was you know, that
was his That was a big thing that

587
00:36:06.639 --> 00:36:09.280
he was speaking out about. And
then just a matter of months later,

588
00:36:09.559 --> 00:36:15.039
reeling from all this public scrutiny about
Owen Hart's death, WWFS decided, we

589
00:36:15.039 --> 00:36:17.800
got summer sliming in Minneapolis. Let's
get Governor Ventura to be a special referee

590
00:36:17.800 --> 00:36:22.840
for our show. And Ventura,
who had been speaking out against WWS lack

591
00:36:22.880 --> 00:36:28.360
of a union, had a seven
figure paycheck, give or take, dangled

592
00:36:28.400 --> 00:36:31.320
in front of him, and suddenly
it wasn't that big of an issue for

593
00:36:31.400 --> 00:36:35.280
him anymore, and it's all in
fun and what's done is done, and

594
00:36:35.320 --> 00:36:37.440
he totally changed his stance. And
I mean I asked him at the press

595
00:36:37.440 --> 00:36:39.519
conference, you know what have you
learned to change your perspective sitting at that

596
00:36:39.559 --> 00:36:44.320
desk today and he you know,
leered at me and or you know,

597
00:36:44.400 --> 00:36:45.800
gave me an evil look and said, I don't answer questions from dirt sheeet

598
00:36:45.800 --> 00:36:50.199
writers keller And he said, you
know, it's up to wrestlers to do

599
00:36:50.239 --> 00:36:52.360
that, and I'm not a wrestler
anymore, and he just flew off the

600
00:36:52.440 --> 00:36:54.320
question. It's like, that's the
answer to your question. It's because when

601
00:36:54.400 --> 00:37:00.559
money is dangled in front of earnest
people who have earnest ideas they put they

602
00:37:00.639 --> 00:37:02.559
put that aside because they want to
pad their bank account. And it happens

603
00:37:02.639 --> 00:37:06.239
time after time after time historically.
Yeah. Well, I mean it's like,

604
00:37:06.280 --> 00:37:07.880
man, it's like when Piper was
was kind of on that tour talking

605
00:37:07.920 --> 00:37:12.039
about the sickness you know that all
these wrestlers get, and then he was

606
00:37:12.079 --> 00:37:15.400
back in WWU no time, and
it's kind of like the sickness was the

607
00:37:15.440 --> 00:37:17.480
sickness was that they just can't quit. I mean, it's like I wish

608
00:37:17.519 --> 00:37:20.559
I knew how to quit, you
like that whole thing, Like they like

609
00:37:20.639 --> 00:37:22.639
this. The sickness is they can't
walk away from wrestling, no matter how

610
00:37:22.679 --> 00:37:25.960
far afield they get I mean,
we feel blessed the rock heats coming back.

611
00:37:27.000 --> 00:37:30.000
But you know, it's an addiction
for most of those guys, you

612
00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:32.880
know, I mean, just getting
that, getting that immediate crowd response and

613
00:37:34.000 --> 00:37:37.760
and and like you said, the
money, it's it's I don't. I

614
00:37:37.760 --> 00:37:39.280
mean, it's I think it'd be
hard for any of them to walk away

615
00:37:39.280 --> 00:37:42.480
from it, no matter how much
good they're trying to do. And you

616
00:37:42.519 --> 00:37:46.119
can't, I mean, you can't
have it both ways, exactly. I

617
00:37:46.119 --> 00:37:49.119
want to get to our phone call, so I want to reset things if

618
00:37:49.159 --> 00:37:52.960
you're just joining us. David Schumicher
from grant land dot com author Oh the

619
00:37:52.960 --> 00:37:57.320
Squared Circle is joining us. Book
just came out last week, and I

620
00:37:57.320 --> 00:37:59.559
do recommend it. I haven't read
it cover to cover, so there might

621
00:37:59.559 --> 00:38:00.280
be things I hate about it,
David, that I haven't read yet.

622
00:38:00.280 --> 00:38:02.360
I'm just warning it, so I'm
glad for interviewing now. Then this is

623
00:38:02.400 --> 00:38:06.440
good. But there might be things
I love that I don't bring up because

624
00:38:06.480 --> 00:38:08.400
I haven't read every page yet.
But I read a lot of it and

625
00:38:08.719 --> 00:38:13.400
I definitely think it is worth people
taking a listen, are taking a listen,

626
00:38:13.559 --> 00:38:15.000
giving it a read, or they're
probably an audiobook version out there.

627
00:38:15.079 --> 00:38:20.159
It will be, but we have
already there is an audio, and there's

628
00:38:20.159 --> 00:38:21.920
a kindle on all this stuff.
So yeah, I was cool. I

629
00:38:21.960 --> 00:38:23.400
didn't read the audio. Somebody with
a better voice than me dead, So

630
00:38:23.639 --> 00:38:25.880
well that's good. Yeah. I
don't know if you'd want to read your

631
00:38:25.880 --> 00:38:29.760
own book, that'd be kind of
I know it would be a way to

632
00:38:29.760 --> 00:38:31.800
proofread, and no, yeah,
I would be changing everything as I went.

633
00:38:31.840 --> 00:38:37.280
I don't think that would worry at
all. All right, So our

634
00:38:37.280 --> 00:38:40.199
phone over here six four six seven
one nine A two weight. We're live

635
00:38:40.239 --> 00:38:45.840
on the air, taking your phone
calls and also email questions at PW torchlivecast

636
00:38:45.880 --> 00:38:47.079
dot com. I have a lot
more questions for David, but we've got

637
00:38:47.079 --> 00:38:52.039
some people on hold. So let's
get to the phone calls and let me

638
00:38:52.440 --> 00:38:57.719
bring the switchboard up and let's go
first to Eric code two to oh nine.

639
00:38:57.719 --> 00:39:00.119
This is Eric, would be IP. Remember calling Eric. Appreciate if

640
00:39:00.119 --> 00:39:01.440
you call it, Please state where
you're from and what your question is for

641
00:39:01.519 --> 00:39:06.599
David. Hey, when David,
this is the Erica starts to California.

642
00:39:06.599 --> 00:39:10.719
How you guys are doing? All
right? Well, David, I read

643
00:39:12.559 --> 00:39:15.599
one of the an excerpt from your
book that was posted on grant Land about

644
00:39:15.960 --> 00:39:22.320
racism and wrestling and the era that
you were describing, you know, everything

645
00:39:22.440 --> 00:39:28.239
from the old Junkyard Dog and Roddy
Roddy Piper stuff to Harlem heat and everything

646
00:39:28.280 --> 00:39:32.000
that was the era. I grew
up on watching wrestling, so at the

647
00:39:32.000 --> 00:39:36.599
time I really didn't see it.
I didn't see what was happening. You

648
00:39:36.639 --> 00:39:37.920
know, I was kind of lost
in the euphoria, I guess is a

649
00:39:37.960 --> 00:39:43.880
moment. But reading that and looking
back on everything, I just found myself

650
00:39:43.920 --> 00:39:45.880
pulling you know what, Yeah,
that's right a lot when I read that,

651
00:39:46.039 --> 00:39:50.079
So it really opened my eyes.
I'm definitely going to pick up the

652
00:39:50.079 --> 00:39:53.079
book to see what else you can
open my eyes about maybe. And then

653
00:39:53.760 --> 00:39:57.840
what I wanted to ask you,
well, also what I want to say

654
00:39:57.880 --> 00:40:02.679
is I remember Roddy Piper when he
came to Stockton one time. He was

655
00:40:02.719 --> 00:40:08.559
doing that whole anti Latino gimmicking,
and I remember Jesse Ventura calling Pido Santana

656
00:40:08.639 --> 00:40:14.079
Chico and the flying Jalapago and everything
like that, and I remember thinking nothing

657
00:40:14.119 --> 00:40:19.000
of it. But what I wanted
to ask you was as far as nowadays

658
00:40:19.360 --> 00:40:22.920
the racism I mean, do you
think it's do you think it's chilled,

659
00:40:22.960 --> 00:40:25.599
because I mean, we still have
Mark Henry coming out to the hip hop

660
00:40:25.679 --> 00:40:30.679
song, but you know, it's
it's kind of died down for me.

661
00:40:30.880 --> 00:40:34.880
Mark Henry and Our Truth are pretty
much the only ones. But I mean,

662
00:40:35.039 --> 00:40:37.719
they're honestly one of the only couple
of the only black performers out there

663
00:40:38.599 --> 00:40:42.159
right now, or at least even
close to the main event level. So

664
00:40:42.880 --> 00:40:45.400
I just wanted to get your opinion
on how far the industry's come as far

665
00:40:45.440 --> 00:40:52.280
as racism goes nowadays. Yeah,
that's a really good question, and you

666
00:40:52.320 --> 00:40:54.880
know it's I hear things like,
I mean, I hear that question phrase

667
00:40:54.920 --> 00:41:00.440
in various ways a lot that you
put it really well. I think that,

668
00:41:00.840 --> 00:41:05.000
you know, it's hard to know
how quickly time is going to pass,

669
00:41:05.000 --> 00:41:08.880
but I definitely think that inevitably those
sort of racial stereotyping is going to

670
00:41:09.760 --> 00:41:15.480
is going to diminish, because I
mean, America is not becoming more homogenized

671
00:41:15.519 --> 00:41:17.079
in a lot of ways, but
it's definitely like you know, kind of

672
00:41:17.480 --> 00:41:21.199
people talk about the browning of America. I mean, I certainly think that

673
00:41:21.280 --> 00:41:24.519
race will will continue to be less
of a going issue, and wrestling will

674
00:41:24.559 --> 00:41:30.360
reflect the real world that way.
But that doesn't mean wrestling is going to

675
00:41:30.400 --> 00:41:35.119
stop working in really really broad strokes
that are in retrospect often incredibly offensive.

676
00:41:36.119 --> 00:41:37.159
That's kind of part of the form, you know. I mean, like

677
00:41:37.719 --> 00:41:42.000
I've been saying, you know,
when I talk to people about the book,

678
00:41:42.039 --> 00:41:44.360
that the cool thing about wrestling is
that you don't have to watch and

679
00:41:44.480 --> 00:41:45.960
watched for ten years and you can
get back into it and turn it on

680
00:41:46.079 --> 00:41:49.559
and you know what's going on.
You don't know all the storylines, but

681
00:41:49.599 --> 00:41:51.760
you know what a good guy and
a bad guy punching each other in a

682
00:41:51.840 --> 00:41:54.519
ring is, you know, And
that's sort of the beauty of wrestling,

683
00:41:54.599 --> 00:41:58.920
that simplicity. But it has a
dark side, which is that you have

684
00:41:59.000 --> 00:42:02.760
to work in these kind of just
broad stereotypes, not necessarily offensive, but

685
00:42:02.800 --> 00:42:06.599
there's lots of I mean, seeampunk
is a stereotype, you know, and

686
00:42:06.639 --> 00:42:08.519
there and there's a that's kind of
part of how the way I mean,

687
00:42:08.559 --> 00:42:13.360
the way that characters are built in
wrestling. So yeah, I mean when

688
00:42:13.360 --> 00:42:16.440
I wrote that racism piece, uh, it wasn't. I mean, it's

689
00:42:16.559 --> 00:42:20.159
in the book. It just has
race and wrestling and then the racism thing

690
00:42:20.239 --> 00:42:22.760
just sort of popped up in the
online edition. But uh, it was

691
00:42:22.880 --> 00:42:25.760
it was just sort of a catalog. It wasn't meant to be an indictment.

692
00:42:25.800 --> 00:42:29.159
But for me too, I had
I had a similar reaction to what

693
00:42:29.199 --> 00:42:31.639
you had, which was that once
everything's crammed into three pages, man,

694
00:42:31.679 --> 00:42:35.360
that seems like a lot of that's
just it seems like bad news, you

695
00:42:35.400 --> 00:42:38.039
know, And uh, it's it's
tough. It's tough, but it's but

696
00:42:38.039 --> 00:42:43.119
but you know, it's Wrestling is
a weird world because there are a bunch

697
00:42:43.159 --> 00:42:45.920
of kind of documented racist, racist
people that are that are behind the scenes,

698
00:42:45.920 --> 00:42:50.039
that have worked behind the scenes over
the decades. But I think for

699
00:42:50.119 --> 00:42:52.800
the most part, everybody's hard and
head are in the right place. They're

700
00:42:52.880 --> 00:42:54.280
just or I guess their heart's in
the right place. Their head's just somewhere

701
00:42:54.320 --> 00:42:58.880
else. You know, give yourself
a reason to look forward to going to

702
00:42:58.920 --> 00:43:04.480
the mailbox each week with a PW
Torch newsletter paper copy. Subscription details at

703
00:43:04.480 --> 00:43:07.400
PW torch dot com. Slash paper
copy. It's twelve pages every week,

704
00:43:07.440 --> 00:43:12.480
packed with my TV reports, along
with exclusive features such as my cover story

705
00:43:12.480 --> 00:43:15.920
on the top story of the week. Our pay per view roundtable reviews from

706
00:43:15.960 --> 00:43:20.199
the Torch staff. Exclusive feature length
columns from Greg Parks, Rich Fan,

707
00:43:20.320 --> 00:43:24.480
Sean Radikin, Alan Coonahan and Zach
Haydorn, Torch Talk transcripts, the latest

708
00:43:24.519 --> 00:43:30.320
news, and more. PW torch
dot com slash paper Copy. Take a

709
00:43:30.320 --> 00:43:35.000
break from screen time and settle in
every week with the megadosup wrestling news and

710
00:43:35.000 --> 00:43:39.039
analysis with a Pro Wrestling Torch newsletter
paper copy edition in the year twenty twenty

711
00:43:39.039 --> 00:43:44.119
two. You can get a full
year of home delivery for just ninety nine

712
00:43:44.199 --> 00:43:47.880
dollars, or try us for an
eight week trial subscription. PW torch dot

713
00:43:47.920 --> 00:43:58.639
Com Slash paper Copy. Yeah,
I think it's kind of I think it's

714
00:43:58.679 --> 00:44:04.920
really disappointing that it seems like McMahon
is always coming out with some sort of

715
00:44:05.000 --> 00:44:07.079
racial stereotype, a gimmick around a
racial stereotype. I mean, like you

716
00:44:07.119 --> 00:44:10.400
said it was back, you know, a million Dollar Man and ted Dybati.

717
00:44:12.559 --> 00:44:15.840
You know, when Harlem Heat first
started out and the most grown inducing

718
00:44:15.880 --> 00:44:21.440
one because my best friend happened to
be Mexican and when we were watching wrestling

719
00:44:21.599 --> 00:44:25.800
the Mexicals when they came out and
they came out riding a Lawnmowre and honestly

720
00:44:25.840 --> 00:44:29.639
he stopped watching wrestling after that because
it was just it was too much for

721
00:44:29.719 --> 00:44:31.760
him. But I can't say that
blame. I kind of turned out by

722
00:44:31.800 --> 00:44:35.360
it too. I stopped up shortly
after that, but like you said,

723
00:44:35.400 --> 00:44:37.559
I picked it up a few years
later and I was right back into it

724
00:44:37.559 --> 00:44:40.800
again. But you know, it
just seems like it never stops. They

725
00:44:40.840 --> 00:44:46.119
always will come out with a racially
motivated gimmick of some kind of whether or

726
00:44:46.159 --> 00:44:50.280
not they're trying to be racist about
it or they're just trying to get a

727
00:44:50.280 --> 00:44:53.119
reaction or what it just seems in
their in they always seem to come up

728
00:44:53.119 --> 00:44:57.960
with one. Yeah. Yeah,
I mean the one defense that just sort

729
00:44:57.960 --> 00:45:00.840
of always sort of bothers me is
when they talk about how the guys came

730
00:45:00.920 --> 00:45:05.440
up with the gimmicks themselves, you
know, like the uh you know,

731
00:45:05.760 --> 00:45:07.880
like that like Los Guerrero's came up
to the line cheating seeing thing themselves and

732
00:45:07.920 --> 00:45:13.079
they were really excited to do it. And you know, crime Time famously

733
00:45:13.119 --> 00:45:15.199
came up with their gimmick themselves,
which is good, which is like a

734
00:45:15.239 --> 00:45:20.239
minor defense, but it's like,
you know, someone else has created the

735
00:45:20.280 --> 00:45:23.280
culture in which these guys think that
that's a really great, great idea to

736
00:45:23.320 --> 00:45:28.320
get themselves over, you know,
And so it's not always it's it's you

737
00:45:28.360 --> 00:45:30.440
know, it's it's not a good
look for wrestling. Thankfully, it's not

738
00:45:30.519 --> 00:45:35.119
like the predominant. I mean,
it's not the preponderance of wrestling history and

739
00:45:35.119 --> 00:45:37.400
and now you know, there's not
there's really not that much of it.

740
00:45:37.440 --> 00:45:39.280
I would sort of agree with our
truth, although he's been around for a

741
00:45:39.320 --> 00:45:45.119
while and I'm not a huge fan
of Kofi Kingston's weird logo. But but

742
00:45:45.159 --> 00:45:49.559
aside from that, you know,
I think it's you know, I think

743
00:45:49.599 --> 00:45:52.639
that that things are headed in the
right direction, and like I said,

744
00:45:52.679 --> 00:45:55.079
I think it's just sort of the
way that the way that society is going.

745
00:45:55.119 --> 00:45:58.679
I think it's inevitable. I mean, I also think Biggie Langson is

746
00:45:58.679 --> 00:46:00.519
going to be champion inside of a
year, so you know, that'll that

747
00:46:00.519 --> 00:46:06.280
that might change the conversation entirely.
So yeah, I agree with you,

748
00:46:06.320 --> 00:46:07.880
David. The idea of that,
well, he came up with this obscenely

749
00:46:07.960 --> 00:46:10.519
racist and meaning gimmick. It means
it's okay because he's Hispanic, so we

750
00:46:10.559 --> 00:46:14.280
should be able to It's like,
that's that's not really how it works.

751
00:46:14.320 --> 00:46:17.559
You don't put dangle a job and
a bunch of money in front of somebody

752
00:46:17.599 --> 00:46:22.719
whose dream is to be a professional
wrestler and then and then put all everything

753
00:46:22.760 --> 00:46:25.159
on their shoulders that that well,
they wanted to do it, so it

754
00:46:25.199 --> 00:46:28.480
makes it okay. It's like,
yeah, one, there were there were

755
00:46:28.519 --> 00:46:30.800
black guys performed in blackface back in
the day, you know, and they

756
00:46:30.800 --> 00:46:32.000
were happy to make the money.
But that doesn't mean that was okay.

757
00:46:32.039 --> 00:46:35.800
So no, it has to be
a judge otherwise, Eric, I appreciate

758
00:46:35.840 --> 00:46:38.079
the call it very much. All
right, thanks you guys. Cool.

759
00:46:38.360 --> 00:46:42.280
Let's go next to Eric Code sixty
five one, Saint Paul, Minnesota.

760
00:46:42.360 --> 00:46:46.480
Please state your name and where you're
from. Hey, Wade and David,

761
00:46:46.480 --> 00:46:50.039
this is Michael from Woodbury. How
are you doing. Guys doing good?

762
00:46:50.039 --> 00:46:53.679
They do for me. Michael,
Hey, two of my favorites. Glad

763
00:46:53.719 --> 00:46:59.800
to have you guys doing a show
together. And David books in the mail.

764
00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:04.079
Can't wait to uh crack it open
this weekend and read it great man.

765
00:47:05.960 --> 00:47:09.239
Yeah, question. You had a
really interesting interview with Triple H mats

766
00:47:09.239 --> 00:47:15.840
Man right before SummerSlam that got a
lot of attention, and it kind of

767
00:47:15.880 --> 00:47:20.760
got weight involved as well, wondering
what your thoughts of what he had to

768
00:47:20.800 --> 00:47:24.039
say at the time and how certain
things have played out over the last few

769
00:47:24.039 --> 00:47:29.599
months. A lot has happened and
things have changed, and uh where you

770
00:47:29.679 --> 00:47:34.920
see Uh some of that that headed
because I think that he wasn't putting on

771
00:47:35.119 --> 00:47:38.159
putting on anything in his interview,
But I also think that a couple of

772
00:47:38.199 --> 00:47:44.239
things, especially how Daniel Bryant stuff
has played out as a has been interesting.

773
00:47:44.320 --> 00:47:46.320
So I want to know what your
thoughts are how that interview turned out,

774
00:47:46.760 --> 00:47:51.440
and what you think about the interview
now a few few months removed,

775
00:47:51.639 --> 00:47:54.760
and how the direction of the company's
gone. Yeah, I mean the one

776
00:47:57.599 --> 00:47:59.679
I was I was waiting for this
to come up. I mean, this

777
00:47:59.760 --> 00:48:02.360
is like when then when you know, me and Wadeter finally together, and

778
00:48:02.360 --> 00:48:05.960
this is like when the megapowers collide. Now, so this is good,

779
00:48:06.800 --> 00:48:09.960
but but yeah, I mean,
I like, you know, I really

780
00:48:10.039 --> 00:48:14.679
loved doing that interview, I mean
just getting I mean it was crazy to

781
00:48:14.719 --> 00:48:15.480
hear him, I mean, just
for him to be in the room and

782
00:48:15.480 --> 00:48:19.559
just kind of be seemingly talking off
the cuff like that, and I've said

783
00:48:19.559 --> 00:48:22.280
a million times that every time you
talk to a wrestler, you're getting worked

784
00:48:22.320 --> 00:48:24.639
somehow. You know, you're getting
worked on some level. But among others,

785
00:48:25.000 --> 00:48:28.159
yeah, definitely some more than others. You know. The nicest thing

786
00:48:28.159 --> 00:48:31.199
that I read about about that interview
with somebody I think that you know,

787
00:48:31.239 --> 00:48:34.599
on Reddit or something like that,
said, you know, you might hate

788
00:48:34.599 --> 00:48:36.960
Triple H, but this is an
interview that people are going to be coming

789
00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:38.599
back to for years and years,
because you know, it's sort of like

790
00:48:39.159 --> 00:48:43.039
reading different ways in light of what
you know what's going on. And I

791
00:48:43.039 --> 00:48:46.400
think that that's totally true. You
know. I think that I feel like

792
00:48:46.440 --> 00:48:50.280
I got a lot of honesty out
of Triple H, and I feel like

793
00:48:50.840 --> 00:48:53.880
that honesty won't be fully understood.
I mean, that's most of what he

794
00:48:53.960 --> 00:49:00.159
said will continue to be interesting for
you know, into the future. At

795
00:49:00.159 --> 00:49:02.719
the time when I did the interview, I thought, you know, like

796
00:49:02.760 --> 00:49:08.039
I was really I was really upbeat
about WWE, and I'm not like dogging

797
00:49:08.039 --> 00:49:10.000
it now, but it was a
really kind of I thought a good moment

798
00:49:10.039 --> 00:49:15.440
for WWE, and Triple H's honesty
sort of uh, you know, rang

799
00:49:15.519 --> 00:49:20.599
true and felt like and reflected on
the positive feelings I had about WWE,

800
00:49:20.599 --> 00:49:22.800
and now you know, you can
go back and look at it and read

801
00:49:22.840 --> 00:49:24.400
some things that are like, oh, yeah, this is why Daniel Brian's

802
00:49:24.400 --> 00:49:27.840
getting buried now or that you know
that kind of thing. So it's,

803
00:49:27.960 --> 00:49:30.679
uh, it was, it was
a weird thing. It was a weird

804
00:49:30.719 --> 00:49:34.440
just experience talking to him and getting
all that stuff out of him. But

805
00:49:34.440 --> 00:49:37.280
but yeah, I mean, I
I can't say that I'm like super excited

806
00:49:37.320 --> 00:49:40.079
with the direction of WWE right now. And and I don't know, I'm

807
00:49:40.119 --> 00:49:43.440
sure that you guys have talked about
Wade. You can you can tell me

808
00:49:43.519 --> 00:49:47.679
about the about Vince's laugh investor call
where he basically just buried Daniel Bryan to

809
00:49:49.159 --> 00:49:52.000
mean to like anybody that was on
the phone. So you know, it's

810
00:49:52.119 --> 00:49:54.519
it's a it's a weird it's a
weird place that we're in right now,

811
00:49:55.360 --> 00:50:00.760
but hopefully, hopefully it's you know, it'll turn itself back around soon.

812
00:50:00.679 --> 00:50:07.880
Yeah. I think the Hunter there's
a history repeating itself with Triple H,

813
00:50:07.079 --> 00:50:09.840
you know, and in that whenever
he's involved in a storyline, and people

814
00:50:09.840 --> 00:50:14.079
who listen to me on the the
EP keler houtliner on the show or read

815
00:50:14.119 --> 00:50:16.079
my writing. No, you know
there's history to this and I've writ about

816
00:50:16.079 --> 00:50:17.840
it. You know, when Triple
H is involved in something, there's a

817
00:50:17.840 --> 00:50:22.199
tunnel vision and he loses sight of
anything else, and everything he does is

818
00:50:22.400 --> 00:50:27.679
so it's almost comical if it weren't
so damaging for fans enjoyment of the product

819
00:50:28.119 --> 00:50:31.280
and the wrestlers who deserve to not
be collateral damage. Triple H just says,

820
00:50:31.360 --> 00:50:34.360
well, this helped me. Yep, this will help me, and

821
00:50:34.400 --> 00:50:36.760
he doesn't think about anything else,
Like when he stands in the ring and

822
00:50:36.760 --> 00:50:40.239
tells Daniel Brian six days before a
pay per view match between Randy Orton and

823
00:50:40.320 --> 00:50:44.719
Daniel Bryan, which is a headline
match for the title, and he stands

824
00:50:44.760 --> 00:50:46.920
there in the ring with Randy Orton
and Daniel Bryan right there and says,

825
00:50:47.000 --> 00:50:50.960
Daniel Brian, you're not worth me
wrestling you because you're not a big enough

826
00:50:51.000 --> 00:50:53.559
star. He's trying to sell Daniel
Bryan as a top title consenter on the

827
00:50:53.559 --> 00:50:57.519
pay per view, and Randy Orton
is standing right next to him, going,

828
00:50:58.559 --> 00:51:00.599
so he's a big enough sto for
me to wrestle, but not you

829
00:51:01.039 --> 00:51:05.280
like that's stuff doesn't cross Triple H's
mind, and that just has happened over

830
00:51:05.320 --> 00:51:07.000
and over and over again for the
last two and a half months, where

831
00:51:07.440 --> 00:51:09.920
I think people who didn't live through
it or see it for what it was

832
00:51:10.000 --> 00:51:14.159
the last six times has happened are
kind of saying, Okay, yep,

833
00:51:14.199 --> 00:51:17.400
this is Hunter's achilles heel. When
he has some influence over storylines, which

834
00:51:17.400 --> 00:51:22.000
he has considerable, obviously increasingly so, and he's on television, there's just

835
00:51:22.599 --> 00:51:25.880
needless collateral damage left and right because
he books in a very self centered way.

836
00:51:25.920 --> 00:51:30.400
So I know what happened. I
think everybody's seen that to the I

837
00:51:30.400 --> 00:51:36.519
mean, and I also think it's
just sort of the the never end.

838
00:51:36.639 --> 00:51:38.639
I mean, like the stakes are
always going up in the sort of like

839
00:51:38.719 --> 00:51:43.760
workshoot era that we're in now where
you were like when he was saying that,

840
00:51:44.000 --> 00:51:46.000
it was obviously he was taking a
huge dig at Ryan and you're right

841
00:51:46.079 --> 00:51:50.480
by by extension Orton, but he
was trying to do a sort of workshooting

842
00:51:50.559 --> 00:51:52.920
thing, right, and so like
there's this weird there's this weird uh,

843
00:51:53.480 --> 00:51:59.000
there's weird motivation to like to get
real in the most negative way possible,

844
00:51:59.079 --> 00:52:02.119
and I don't think that necessarily works
for you know, more than more than

845
00:52:02.159 --> 00:52:06.559
once a year or something like that, maybe once every six years. But

846
00:52:06.559 --> 00:52:09.039
even then you can try. It's
it's hard to find one that worked beyond

847
00:52:09.079 --> 00:52:13.320
getting a huge buzz from the fans
who don't feel spoken to. You know

848
00:52:13.400 --> 00:52:15.760
that there's a group of fans who
follow wrestling and they don't understand that the

849
00:52:15.760 --> 00:52:19.800
best way to enjoy wrestling is to
have a consistent logical, you know,

850
00:52:19.840 --> 00:52:23.039
with internal logic, characters following their
constitutions just like any other TV drama.

851
00:52:23.360 --> 00:52:28.360
You want to have an enjoyable show, and the idea that in the middle

852
00:52:28.360 --> 00:52:31.039
of Breaking that I want I want, you know, the actors to wink

853
00:52:31.079 --> 00:52:32.719
and out at the audience and say, well, you know, we're not

854
00:52:32.760 --> 00:52:36.039
really who we are. And you
read about that in the trade journal,

855
00:52:36.079 --> 00:52:38.440
about that that salary dispute that we
had, and how this actress is being

856
00:52:38.480 --> 00:52:40.880
hounded on Yahoo for wanting too much
money. I don't want to know that,

857
00:52:40.880 --> 00:52:43.920
Stuf. When I'm watching Breaking Bad, don't wink and not at me

858
00:52:43.960 --> 00:52:46.719
about that. Just tell me a
good coherent story. And so the way

859
00:52:46.760 --> 00:52:50.079
I do it, and I've come
to do because it's so often that it

860
00:52:50.119 --> 00:52:53.519
happens now is I judge a TV
show. I judge raw based on zero

861
00:52:53.599 --> 00:52:58.360
inside information because I don't think that
is relevant to a very large part of

862
00:52:58.360 --> 00:53:00.920
the audience. I think it's I
agree, I agree, you're part of

863
00:53:00.960 --> 00:53:02.280
that audience. It's your world.
But if you kind of step back and

864
00:53:02.320 --> 00:53:07.039
realize the vast majority of people they're
trying to reach don't know what that is.

865
00:53:07.079 --> 00:53:12.119
So I judge it on how does
this How how would the average fan

866
00:53:12.239 --> 00:53:15.119
react to this seeing it? Because
to me, from opening the closing credits,

867
00:53:15.159 --> 00:53:20.400
they're telling a story, they're not
doing a documentary. Need an extra

868
00:53:20.440 --> 00:53:24.400
dose of positivity in your wrestling podcasts? Will come join me Alan fourrel Over

869
00:53:24.440 --> 00:53:30.559
in the Progress Paradise at pedotorch vip
as we mask on the bright side of

870
00:53:30.599 --> 00:53:34.920
wrestling and focus on some of the
great matches and shows from around the world,

871
00:53:35.239 --> 00:53:38.719
be it the US, Japan,
Europe or Mexico. There's always a

872
00:53:38.760 --> 00:53:44.000
place for wrestlings past and the paradise
too, and we've done fun historical shows

873
00:53:44.000 --> 00:53:49.199
such as the We Love Liger series
celebrating the glorious career of Jusian thunder Lighter

874
00:53:49.559 --> 00:53:52.840
and Our Eye Was There When shows
where our guests will join me to talk

875
00:53:52.880 --> 00:53:57.280
about a classic bout that they were
in attendance for. We love variety and

876
00:53:57.320 --> 00:54:01.159
you can expect lots of it at
the Prorest Paradise. Detailed PW Torch VIP

877
00:54:01.280 --> 00:54:07.559
subscription information on the list of all
the VIP benefits is available at pterbrew Torch

878
00:54:07.719 --> 00:54:13.199
vip info dot com. And yes, all VIP podcasts are compatible with popular

879
00:54:13.239 --> 00:54:17.079
podcast apps on iPhone and Android devices, or you can stream them directly from

880
00:54:17.079 --> 00:54:27.440
our ad free VIP mobile size see
you in the paradise. You know,

881
00:54:27.480 --> 00:54:30.440
I totally agree with you, Okay, yeah, for good. You know,

882
00:54:30.519 --> 00:54:31.880
let's let me go back to Michael
CPS and you follow up and then

883
00:54:31.880 --> 00:54:37.880
I'll I'll do a followup to on
that. Certainly, I mean, everything

884
00:54:37.960 --> 00:54:42.440
you said is true, and you
know it's a big follow of the bolts

885
00:54:42.480 --> 00:54:46.440
to you. I can totally I
shouldn't say that, sense I have been

886
00:54:46.480 --> 00:54:52.639
following what you've had to stay on
the topics through podcasts. You're writing something

887
00:54:52.760 --> 00:54:57.920
like that, I just kind of
fear that, you know, and I'm

888
00:54:57.920 --> 00:55:00.599
glad you brought at McMahon kind of
throwing under the bus that you know,

889
00:55:00.639 --> 00:55:05.719
it was a couple of months ago
that Sean Michaels had to say, you

890
00:55:05.760 --> 00:55:10.079
know that he wasn't talking about Daniel
Bryan when he was bringing him up somebody.

891
00:55:10.159 --> 00:55:14.800
You know, he might have been
talking about cizarrow but or Wade Barrats,

892
00:55:14.880 --> 00:55:17.079
but it was presumed that it was
Daniel Brian. And here we are

893
00:55:17.119 --> 00:55:21.920
months later, Sean Michaels is kicking
Brian in the face in the hell in

894
00:55:21.920 --> 00:55:25.519
a cell match like that. So
I've just been kind of fascinated by how

895
00:55:25.559 --> 00:55:31.079
far they've gone to bring Brian down
a little bit. But I'm still I

896
00:55:31.400 --> 00:55:36.480
love watching NXT every week. I
think it's the best wrestling program there is

897
00:55:36.559 --> 00:55:38.519
right now. So I'm still hopeful
about the future, and I like what's

898
00:55:38.559 --> 00:55:42.199
some of the things they do with
the new performance center and Triple Ah had

899
00:55:42.239 --> 00:55:45.360
a lot of cannon commentary about that
I was really interested in. But You're

900
00:55:45.440 --> 00:55:49.000
right, I think this is it
was. It was a piece that five

901
00:55:49.119 --> 00:55:52.639
ten years from now we could look
back on and and really take them in

902
00:55:52.960 --> 00:55:58.039
and bellieve we didn't learn a lot. And Michael what You're right, You're

903
00:55:58.119 --> 00:56:00.880
right in saying that, because I
mean Vincent Man rarely did interviews, you

904
00:56:00.920 --> 00:56:02.079
know, in the in the eighties, and when he did. It was

905
00:56:02.159 --> 00:56:07.360
like I had that a photocopy on
my desk, you know, handy for

906
00:56:07.480 --> 00:56:08.880
years, you know, because it
was so rare and Triple H hasn't done

907
00:56:09.119 --> 00:56:12.039
a lot of those. And David, that's what made that new. That

908
00:56:12.119 --> 00:56:15.000
interview so newsworth. He asked a
lot of good questions. Triple H was

909
00:56:15.039 --> 00:56:16.679
in a move to talk That's absolutely
part of it. But part of is

910
00:56:16.719 --> 00:56:21.400
the scarcity of getting Triple H to
talk business. Oh totally yeah, great

911
00:56:21.440 --> 00:56:25.280
way, Yeah, so I totally
recognize that that's true. Yeah, and

912
00:56:25.360 --> 00:56:28.480
so I mean it was it was
good that you were the guy doing it.

913
00:56:28.599 --> 00:56:30.599
Oh. I've said before, I
got really lucky. My grandmin office

914
00:56:30.639 --> 00:56:32.960
is like fifty feet away from the
hotel they were staying in, and I

915
00:56:34.000 --> 00:56:37.920
was kind of pestering the the PR
guy, and all of a sudden he

916
00:56:37.000 --> 00:56:39.559
was just there. So it was
it was I got lucky with it.

917
00:56:39.679 --> 00:56:42.960
And well that's how you do it
though, you know, Yeah, you

918
00:56:43.039 --> 00:56:47.239
got to take those opportunities. I
got brought up in the interview. I

919
00:56:47.239 --> 00:56:50.559
don't like to be the center of
the story. Let's talk about other stuff,

920
00:56:50.559 --> 00:56:52.480
but it is worth mentioning in that
interview, Triple H brought up a

921
00:56:52.519 --> 00:56:54.960
story that he got just completely wrong, saying, you know, Dallas Page

922
00:56:55.000 --> 00:57:00.159
called me one day and and my
coverage switched from Dallas Pages as awful or

923
00:57:00.159 --> 00:57:02.119
I think his quote was, I
called him a waste of skin and then

924
00:57:02.199 --> 00:57:05.679
as soon as he called Dallas Page
called me and charmed me. Then all

925
00:57:05.679 --> 00:57:07.159
of a sudden, I was,
you know, really positive ont DDP that

926
00:57:07.239 --> 00:57:12.440
quote ran, I heard about it
emailed, you wrote a response on the

927
00:57:12.440 --> 00:57:16.400
Torch you linked to it. Why
this is the question that I've been asked,

928
00:57:16.840 --> 00:57:20.280
and Bruce Mitchell and I have talked
about it on bpidio. Bruce Field

929
00:57:20.360 --> 00:57:23.519
really strongly about this too, my
senior columnist for twenty three years. Why

930
00:57:23.639 --> 00:57:28.280
wasn't a correction run when it can
be documented all the back issues are online.

931
00:57:28.400 --> 00:57:32.559
There's absolutely nothing to what he said. It was great. You guys

932
00:57:32.639 --> 00:57:36.559
quickly ran a note saying it wasn't
me they was talking about. It was

933
00:57:36.559 --> 00:57:39.280
Bruce Mitchell who he was referring to. But it wasn't really a correction as

934
00:57:39.360 --> 00:57:42.679
much as well, it was just
a different writer Triple A just talking about

935
00:57:42.719 --> 00:57:45.719
because it is the antithesis of what
the Torch stands for. And I've talked

936
00:57:45.719 --> 00:57:49.639
to you privately, David, and
you've shared my view. You understand that

937
00:57:49.719 --> 00:57:52.800
this is to a journalist, nothing's
more damaging than I'm one charming phone call

938
00:57:52.800 --> 00:57:58.360
away from completely changing my perspective on
what I write about you. It's from

939
00:57:58.360 --> 00:58:00.880
a kind of a journalistic standpoint in
the editor's room. And and when this

940
00:58:00.960 --> 00:58:04.880
story came up, and it's awkward
because it's me, but when is a

941
00:58:04.920 --> 00:58:09.440
decision made to actually do like go
on record and say we grantline me David

942
00:58:09.440 --> 00:58:15.280
Schumach Maker are saying this was not
true and there's no evidence of it.

943
00:58:15.639 --> 00:58:17.559
Now, you're right, I guess
in the sense that we, I mean,

944
00:58:17.639 --> 00:58:21.400
we didn't look at it much after
the first couple of days when it

945
00:58:21.480 --> 00:58:24.280
was online. And but most of
that, I mean, I don't I

946
00:58:24.320 --> 00:58:27.280
don't want to. I don't want
to act like I don't have any volition

947
00:58:27.360 --> 00:58:30.360
in this situation. It was I
left it to my editors decide what to

948
00:58:30.400 --> 00:58:31.920
do for the most part, because
it's a you know, it's a grand

949
00:58:31.960 --> 00:58:37.280
and institutional issue. You know,
I mean, at the at the beginning,

950
00:58:37.360 --> 00:58:40.039
it didn't I mean, to be
totally honest, we we I ran

951
00:58:40.079 --> 00:58:43.840
it. The way we did was
that I didn't even it didn't even occur

952
00:58:43.880 --> 00:58:45.239
to me to check it because it
was just triple H saying it, you

953
00:58:45.239 --> 00:58:47.760
know, and this fact and the
fact remains that he said it. And

954
00:58:47.840 --> 00:58:52.679
also to be totally honest, you
see, I mean we weren't like I

955
00:58:52.679 --> 00:58:55.280
didn't know you well before, and
you're just like like like such an I

956
00:58:55.320 --> 00:58:59.199
don't mean this is a way to
like puff you up and try to get

957
00:58:59.199 --> 00:59:01.079
out of it, like you were
such an icon that like him mentioning your

958
00:59:01.159 --> 00:59:04.400
name, like I hear your name
like five times a week, you know,

959
00:59:04.440 --> 00:59:06.440
and I don't think of it as
a human being. I just think

960
00:59:06.440 --> 00:59:08.760
of it as like this specter of
wrestling journalism sort of, you know.

961
00:59:09.599 --> 00:59:13.519
So it really didn't even cross my
mind that it would that it mattered if

962
00:59:13.559 --> 00:59:15.880
it was real right when he was
saying it. It was just sort of

963
00:59:15.880 --> 00:59:19.440
an example that he was giving.
So yeah, I mean I tried.

964
00:59:19.960 --> 00:59:22.719
I tried to fix it at the
time, and then you know, I

965
00:59:22.719 --> 00:59:25.119
think you're you're actually that's you're.
It's a totally legitimate question as to why

966
00:59:25.159 --> 00:59:29.079
it's not more like definitively fixed.
Now I'll go back and look at that

967
00:59:29.639 --> 00:59:31.960
on Monday morning. I mean,
that's that's a totally legitimate question. Excellent,

968
00:59:32.199 --> 00:59:36.639
appreciate that answer. And part of
why in part of why bring it

969
00:59:36.719 --> 00:59:39.079
up? One I get asked about
it, and two Michael's question. Just

970
00:59:39.159 --> 00:59:43.559
now this interview lives on and so
no, it's totally it's totally true,

971
00:59:43.599 --> 00:59:45.519
totally right. Yeah, you know
what's on there. People are going to

972
00:59:45.519 --> 00:59:47.199
refer to it and there it is
the most one of the most awful things

973
00:59:47.199 --> 00:59:50.960
you can say about somebody. Oh
yeah, his opinions are for sale with

974
00:59:50.960 --> 00:59:52.880
a charming phone call. It's just
sitting there, you know, and and

975
00:59:53.000 --> 00:59:55.760
all those back issues are there.
It doesn't take much much research to say,

976
00:59:55.760 --> 00:59:59.480
all right, this is when Triple
H talked about it. Let's see

977
00:59:59.599 --> 01:00:00.920
if there's any truth to us.
So anyway, very good, let's uh,

978
01:00:01.239 --> 01:00:05.320
let's move on. We had an
email question before it went on the

979
01:00:05.400 --> 01:00:08.760
air from somebody who just wanted to
know in general is from Brad grant Land

980
01:00:08.800 --> 01:00:13.159
is affiliated with ESPN. How do
you feel pro wrestling has viewed these days

981
01:00:13.199 --> 01:00:17.840
in the ESPN empire? Well,
I mean, what's the old saying is

982
01:00:17.880 --> 01:00:21.280
that they only cover wrestler when wrestlers
die, right, I mean, I

983
01:00:21.320 --> 01:00:23.360
don't think it's that much different than
that. Although there are now what two

984
01:00:23.480 --> 01:00:27.840
former ww announcers who are who are
you know, employed over there, and

985
01:00:28.079 --> 01:00:30.679
there's a there's a handful of other
guys who are kind of openly wrestling fans.

986
01:00:30.760 --> 01:00:35.679
Robert Floor is probably chief amongst them, you know. I mean,

987
01:00:35.719 --> 01:00:38.159
I think it's I think it's always
going to be the weird juxtaposition, especially

988
01:00:38.199 --> 01:00:45.360
when as ESPN and grows and expands, it's great. Its biggest liability is

989
01:00:45.679 --> 01:00:51.239
the conflation between sports and entertainment.
The fact, I mean, did they

990
01:00:51.239 --> 01:00:53.960
get called out on related subjects for
that by you know, blogs like dead

991
01:00:53.960 --> 01:00:59.519
Spin a couple of times in months. The fact that they're just like an

992
01:00:59.599 --> 01:01:01.679
entertainment company that is now buying all
the contracts in these sports and then trying

993
01:01:01.719 --> 01:01:07.480
to cover it like journalists. It's
so I think that just as with many

994
01:01:07.480 --> 01:01:10.639
many other things, I mean many
many other outlets, they're they're going to

995
01:01:10.679 --> 01:01:15.079
be really reluctant to deal with wrestling
in any kind of real way because,

996
01:01:15.559 --> 01:01:20.360
you know, any they don't they
can't, they can't risk any extra question

997
01:01:20.400 --> 01:01:23.280
of legitimacy. So and I don't
mean that as a knock on ESPN.

998
01:01:23.320 --> 01:01:27.039
I just mean that, like people
are just reluctant to get into the wrestling

999
01:01:27.039 --> 01:01:30.880
game. I mean, listen,
I wouldn't have been able to find a

1000
01:01:30.880 --> 01:01:32.840
place to write if it weren't for
blogs like dead Spin and then websites like

1001
01:01:32.880 --> 01:01:36.679
Grantland, you know. I mean, there's there are wrestling websites where there's

1002
01:01:36.719 --> 01:01:38.559
very little stuff in the mainstream because
people just don't know how to treat it.

1003
01:01:38.800 --> 01:01:42.920
And I think it's that confusion that
on the one hand makes wrestling kind

1004
01:01:42.920 --> 01:01:45.599
of awesome and then on the other
hand makes it makes us sort of like,

1005
01:01:45.760 --> 01:01:50.480
you know, isolated. So you
know, it's a it's a weird

1006
01:01:50.599 --> 01:01:53.880
it's it's it's a weird it's a
weird way that wrestling is treated, for

1007
01:01:53.920 --> 01:01:58.400
sure. But I mean I do
feel like, you know, there's certainly

1008
01:01:58.480 --> 01:02:01.039
days where you know, I feel
like the kind of like right headed stepchild

1009
01:02:01.119 --> 01:02:04.599
of the ESPN family. But I
think every writer, every good writer,

1010
01:02:04.679 --> 01:02:07.719
feels like that from time to time
that you kind of want more for yourself.

1011
01:02:07.760 --> 01:02:10.360
But you know, they've put my
they've they've linked to my pieces on

1012
01:02:10.400 --> 01:02:14.920
the ESPN home page, which is
which is definitely, as you know,

1013
01:02:15.480 --> 01:02:17.719
a step in the right direction.
I would say, I don't know,

1014
01:02:17.760 --> 01:02:21.719
do you have any thoughts on a
wad? Yeah, I thanks. I

1015
01:02:21.719 --> 01:02:23.639
mean that's where my nichees come from, you know. I mean I started

1016
01:02:23.639 --> 01:02:27.559
the torch in high school, as
you know, as a hobby, as

1017
01:02:27.559 --> 01:02:30.280
a lot of people were doing at
that point, And then went to college

1018
01:02:30.320 --> 01:02:32.920
for journalism, and interned at a
major news station, and worked at Kfan

1019
01:02:32.960 --> 01:02:37.760
for a couple of years doing a
pro wrestling radio show, and and did

1020
01:02:37.760 --> 01:02:42.679
some syndicated wrestling ratings and newspapers cross
country. And in every one of those

1021
01:02:42.719 --> 01:02:45.440
steps I got all those same looks. You know, when you enter real

1022
01:02:45.519 --> 01:02:50.320
journalism and you talk about pro wrestling, there's this quizzical look of you know,

1023
01:02:50.440 --> 01:02:52.400
well it's fake, so what is
there to write about? And that

1024
01:02:52.440 --> 01:02:54.719
even goes back to like, you
know, the mass Man moniker. For

1025
01:02:54.800 --> 01:02:59.760
you, it's like, I feel
like you're you're not doing sarcastic parody.

1026
01:03:00.199 --> 01:03:01.840
You know, what's the worst thing
that happened in wrestling? Let's do a

1027
01:03:01.840 --> 01:03:07.320
list. You're doing You're tackling serious
stuff in your columns and especially your book

1028
01:03:07.679 --> 01:03:10.440
Chris Benoa and wrestling unionization and racism
and wrestling, which our first caller talked

1029
01:03:10.440 --> 01:03:16.639
about, and so like the chip
on my shoulder is I wouldn't want I

1030
01:03:16.719 --> 01:03:23.639
want to project an image and frame
what I do journalistically at risk of seeming

1031
01:03:23.679 --> 01:03:28.800
pretentious about it, but as if
it is because it is, and frame

1032
01:03:28.840 --> 01:03:31.119
it as serious journalism, you know, I mean, we were just writing

1033
01:03:31.159 --> 01:03:34.960
about safety issues in wrestling pro wrestling. It's weird, but pro wrestling is

1034
01:03:34.960 --> 01:03:37.519
way ahead of the curve on steroids. Ahead of we were writing about how

1035
01:03:37.559 --> 01:03:38.880
this is going to be a big
deal in baseball eventually, and in football,

1036
01:03:38.960 --> 01:03:43.800
we were writing about concussions years up
before, you know about in wrestling,

1037
01:03:43.840 --> 01:03:45.639
years before it became an issue in
the NFL and NHL. And now

1038
01:03:45.639 --> 01:03:47.920
it's this big deal and everybody is
thinking, oh, no one was writing

1039
01:03:47.920 --> 01:03:50.599
about it, and it's like,
go look at the Wrestling Observer, Go

1040
01:03:50.599 --> 01:03:52.800
look at the Wrestling Torch. We
were writing full page editorials and doing major

1041
01:03:52.840 --> 01:03:58.119
interviews about this, you know,
ten fifteen years before major sports. We

1042
01:03:58.199 --> 01:04:01.199
cover real stuff and we do real
journalist and there's people who recognize that.

1043
01:04:01.400 --> 01:04:08.199
But I have, you know,
long given up on personally looking for validation

1044
01:04:08.679 --> 01:04:11.760
from people who can't get pasted.
Well, pro wrestling's fake and it's so

1045
01:04:11.880 --> 01:04:15.599
weird. So there's no real story
to write, thankfully. Frank de Ford

1046
01:04:15.679 --> 01:04:18.440
gaved Meltzer a wrestling column in the
National Sports Daily, and Frank the Ford

1047
01:04:18.480 --> 01:04:23.880
is on record calling Meltzer the greatest
sports journalists of this generation and said that

1048
01:04:23.880 --> 01:04:28.079
that column is almost single handedly saved
paper. Certainly was the most popular column.

1049
01:04:29.039 --> 01:04:30.719
And there's been a lot of wrestling
radio shows over the years before the

1050
01:04:30.719 --> 01:04:34.000
Internet came around that covered it in
a journalistic way. Mike Tiney, now

1051
01:04:34.039 --> 01:04:36.400
host to TNA, did the Wrestling
Insider show that I was a guest on

1052
01:04:36.440 --> 01:04:40.760
a lot. He covered it in
a journalistic way. John Arezi, who

1053
01:04:40.760 --> 01:04:45.440
shows from the early nineties that we
run on the VIP website now as you

1054
01:04:45.480 --> 01:04:47.159
know flashback radio shows, he was
doing that New York at that time.

1055
01:04:47.280 --> 01:04:53.679
So there's always been pockets of coverage
of mean of wrestling in mainstream environments like

1056
01:04:53.760 --> 01:04:57.440
you now. There's example, there's
wrestling columnists over the years in the Detroit

1057
01:04:57.480 --> 01:05:00.480
News and the Charlton Posting Courier and
the I'm a Harold with Alex Marbez who's

1058
01:05:00.480 --> 01:05:05.159
an NFL writer. There's always pockets, but in wrestling fans have always like

1059
01:05:05.199 --> 01:05:09.440
sought them out and done it.
But it's always taken an editor or a

1060
01:05:09.440 --> 01:05:14.840
station manager who who saw what we
are doing as worthy of being given a

1061
01:05:14.880 --> 01:05:18.119
spot. But I also sympathize with
the idea it's not a sport in most

1062
01:05:18.159 --> 01:05:21.800
people's definition. You know, it
does fall in between the cracks, and

1063
01:05:21.880 --> 01:05:26.800
that's what that's where I have some
sympathy for it, and that's why when

1064
01:05:26.800 --> 01:05:30.480
we do get an opportunity to be
in the mainstream, it's important people who

1065
01:05:30.480 --> 01:05:33.119
listen to my shows on kafan,
and all one hundred and some of them

1066
01:05:33.159 --> 01:05:38.159
are available for VIP members. We
really took that opportunity, that pocket of

1067
01:05:38.159 --> 01:05:43.039
time to cover real serious issues,
including all the steroid allegations and sexual impropriety

1068
01:05:43.039 --> 01:05:45.679
allegations that led to the federal indictment. We covered that stuff really seriously.

1069
01:05:45.719 --> 01:05:48.519
Jesse vent around the show talking about
unions. We covered that seriously. I

1070
01:05:48.559 --> 01:05:54.559
felt like I was constantly kind of
justifying that there's a there are real stories

1071
01:05:54.639 --> 01:05:59.079
inside the showmanship that deserve coverage that
isn't being covered because there is no section

1072
01:05:59.159 --> 01:06:03.960
between variety and sports that grabs land
latches onto wrestling. Thanks for downloading today's

1073
01:06:03.960 --> 01:06:06.960
show. Take it to the next
level with a VIP membership, get shows

1074
01:06:08.000 --> 01:06:11.159
like this, the Way Killer Prosing
Podcast, Weight Killer Prosing Post Show,

1075
01:06:11.440 --> 01:06:15.800
and the pw Torch daily casts on
our pw Torch VIP podcast feed with ads

1076
01:06:15.840 --> 01:06:20.079
and plugs removed from the shows for
a streamlined listening experience, and also hear

1077
01:06:20.159 --> 01:06:24.719
the VIP exclusive shows that I host
with Rich Fan and Todd Martin, Everything

1078
01:06:24.719 --> 01:06:28.360
with Rich Fan and The Fix with
Todd Martin signature VIP series that you're missing

1079
01:06:28.400 --> 01:06:31.280
out without a VIP membership, So
go VIP here in twenty twenty two and

1080
01:06:31.400 --> 01:06:36.079
enjoy all the benefits, all the
bonus content and the ad free listening experience.

1081
01:06:36.119 --> 01:06:46.000
Pw torch dot com slash go VIP. Yeah, No, I can

1082
01:06:46.039 --> 01:06:48.840
totally agree with you, And that
ship on your shoulder is like, you

1083
01:06:48.880 --> 01:06:54.480
know, totally, I mean I
sympathize with that. You know, I

1084
01:06:54.519 --> 01:06:58.920
think that, you know, we
like doing. What I'm doing is sort

1085
01:06:58.920 --> 01:07:00.000
of I'm just doing a different you
know, I mean, not not a

1086
01:07:00.039 --> 01:07:04.800
totally different thing. Obviously we're doing
very similar things, but there's different tactics,

1087
01:07:04.840 --> 01:07:08.559
I guess, and you know,
I'm just sort of the just sort

1088
01:07:08.559 --> 01:07:11.440
of taken the like you know,
the sugar coated way in a lot of

1089
01:07:11.440 --> 01:07:14.400
ways, and hopefully I can sneak
attack them with some stuff like the like

1090
01:07:14.480 --> 01:07:16.719
the topics he talked about. But
what you're saying is totally right. I

1091
01:07:16.760 --> 01:07:20.880
mean, it's it's hard to find
a platform for any writing about wrestling,

1092
01:07:20.960 --> 01:07:24.599
and you know, I mean,
I got really lucky to end up at

1093
01:07:24.599 --> 01:07:28.440
a place at Grantlin, which is
like a dedicated sports and pop culture website.

1094
01:07:28.480 --> 01:07:30.440
So it's like the only place I
could possibly write before where no one

1095
01:07:30.480 --> 01:07:33.039
has to ask why it's there,
you know. I mean, it's it's

1096
01:07:33.079 --> 01:07:35.599
sitting right there in the middle.
It only gets complicated when I write stuff

1097
01:07:35.599 --> 01:07:40.039
for the blog and then it shows
up on the sports blog and people immediately

1098
01:07:40.079 --> 01:07:43.519
start asking why it's there. But
for the most part, it's you know,

1099
01:07:43.559 --> 01:07:46.440
it worked out really well. Another
email question Terry from Charlotte listen to

1100
01:07:46.480 --> 01:07:49.599
your podcast with Bob Simmons earlier this
week and send this quote. Wants me

1101
01:07:49.639 --> 01:07:54.840
to read it to you and get
your response, especially in the context of

1102
01:07:55.000 --> 01:07:57.280
what we're talking about in wrestling reporting. Bill Simmons said, one of the

1103
01:07:57.320 --> 01:07:59.880
interesting things, and he's talking to
you, David. You knew this,

1104
01:08:00.360 --> 01:08:02.000
but the listeners might not. One
of the interesting things is you're writing about

1105
01:08:02.039 --> 01:08:06.199
wrestling in a really smart kind of
of hybrow way, and before or big

1106
01:08:06.199 --> 01:08:10.079
picture hYP brow way, and before
nobody was doing that. Why do you

1107
01:08:10.079 --> 01:08:13.079
think people didn't write about wrestling in
a serious smart way until you? I

1108
01:08:13.119 --> 01:08:15.480
guess Melzer was the closest, at
least he was trying to write about it

1109
01:08:15.480 --> 01:08:16.880
in a big picture way, but
not how you're doing it, obviously,

1110
01:08:17.600 --> 01:08:23.039
And in defense of you, you
immediately said you loved Dave Day's writing and

1111
01:08:23.199 --> 01:08:26.880
and kind of defended Dave. But
does Bill Simmons just not know what we've

1112
01:08:26.880 --> 01:08:29.279
been doing for twenty five years?
Yeah? I mean I have no idea

1113
01:08:29.319 --> 01:08:30.760
what Bill knows, but I mean
I think that that's I mean, I

1114
01:08:30.760 --> 01:08:35.720
think that in some ways he's I
mean that that wouldn't surprise me because you

1115
01:08:35.760 --> 01:08:40.239
know, I mean, you're most
of the most of the you know,

1116
01:08:40.279 --> 01:08:44.279
wrestling media online is I mean,
in newsletters and stuff, is targeting wrestling

1117
01:08:44.359 --> 01:08:45.239
fans, right, So, I
mean, I think what he's talking about

1118
01:08:45.279 --> 01:08:48.479
is sort of looking for the bigger
audience. And we talked right that before,

1119
01:08:48.520 --> 01:08:50.720
you know, I mean, I
write really deliberately for people that might

1120
01:08:50.720 --> 01:08:55.800
not have watched wrestling in a while. It's weirdly, I'm not trying to

1121
01:08:55.800 --> 01:08:57.800
put you on the spot with it
sounds like I'm putting you on the spot

1122
01:08:57.840 --> 01:08:59.560
with Bill, but and I don't. And I'm not trying to rip into

1123
01:08:59.560 --> 01:09:02.560
Bill either. Some genuinely curious Is
he saying your style of writing kind of

1124
01:09:02.560 --> 01:09:05.319
what we talked about at the beginning
the magazine essay, old school boxing,

1125
01:09:05.359 --> 01:09:08.960
all those influences. Is that kind
of what he means? And people are

1126
01:09:08.960 --> 01:09:12.199
misinterpreting it because yeah, Twitter just
blow up. But I certainly have some

1127
01:09:12.199 --> 01:09:14.000
people on Twitter going yeah, no, no, no, no. I

1128
01:09:14.000 --> 01:09:15.000
think that that is that is what
he means. And I think that,

1129
01:09:15.039 --> 01:09:17.359
I mean, I think that it
is just sort of a like a platform

1130
01:09:17.399 --> 01:09:21.119
thing too, you know, I
mean I think that you got I mean,

1131
01:09:21.319 --> 01:09:28.159
you guys have obviously have long established
yourself as just sort of the cream

1132
01:09:28.199 --> 01:09:30.960
of the crop for that for for
online wrestling writing. But I think that

1133
01:09:30.000 --> 01:09:33.600
for a lot of people who don't
pay really close attention, it's just too

1134
01:09:33.640 --> 01:09:38.199
easy to conflate with, you know, the like the web presence of of

1135
01:09:38.279 --> 01:09:42.279
you guys in some of the less
reputable websites. I mean, you have

1136
01:09:42.359 --> 01:09:44.239
to you actually have to work for
it. You know, and in some

1137
01:09:44.279 --> 01:09:47.560
ways it's a great thing because you
because you actually earn you know, I

1138
01:09:47.560 --> 01:09:51.239
mean, you earned the information that
you that you that you get from people

1139
01:09:51.279 --> 01:09:57.640
like you. But it's you know, it's it's just because wrestling, like

1140
01:09:57.680 --> 01:10:00.279
I said, isn't on ESPN and
and has a hard time into mainstream media.

1141
01:10:00.640 --> 01:10:03.319
I would think that you're more casual
fans guys like Bill, I mean,

1142
01:10:03.319 --> 01:10:06.520
who's been a real serious fan at
times, but not like really continuously

1143
01:10:06.560 --> 01:10:12.359
over the years. You know,
just there's he. There's not there's not

1144
01:10:12.439 --> 01:10:15.239
a he. You know, they
have a harder time finding the resources I

1145
01:10:15.279 --> 01:10:17.479
think, you know, yeah,
and Bill's just such a high profile personality.

1146
01:10:17.479 --> 01:10:19.640
And when he talks about wrestling,
you know, it's what were those

1147
01:10:19.640 --> 01:10:24.640
old commercials when so and so speaks, everybody listens to the financial advisor guy.

1148
01:10:24.760 --> 01:10:28.439
Yeah yeah, But when Bill Simmons
talks about wrestling, wrestling fans listen,

1149
01:10:28.479 --> 01:10:30.439
and the torch readers, people who
know what the Observer has done and

1150
01:10:30.520 --> 01:10:35.239
de Melzer have done has done,
they get defensive, and understandably so about

1151
01:10:35.279 --> 01:10:39.800
Hey, there's this guy Bruce Mitchell
who's been doing high brow, big picture

1152
01:10:40.159 --> 01:10:44.439
writing that belongs in top level magazines
for the Torch for twenty three years.

1153
01:10:44.840 --> 01:10:46.960
And so I guess what people wish
Bill Simmons would do is maybe ask a

1154
01:10:47.039 --> 01:10:50.800
question instead of a sort of fact
that some people are taking offense to,

1155
01:10:50.840 --> 01:10:55.079
which is, have there been other
writers that you found while researching your book

1156
01:10:55.119 --> 01:10:57.960
that have approached wrestling the way that
you have who you like like. I

1157
01:10:57.960 --> 01:11:00.399
guess that's what people and I would
even appreciate that myself if Bill Simmons did

1158
01:11:00.399 --> 01:11:05.840
that instead of without knowledge making a
broad generalization that nobody actually tried to tackle

1159
01:11:05.880 --> 01:11:10.560
the tough issues in a well written
way and tell you and that's a compliment

1160
01:11:10.600 --> 01:11:13.319
to you, but also ignoring the
history of those who came before you,

1161
01:11:13.600 --> 01:11:15.439
And man, I totally agree.
Yeah, very good. I will put

1162
01:11:15.439 --> 01:11:17.199
you on the spot more than that, because I mean, I'm not you

1163
01:11:17.239 --> 01:11:19.840
know, it's not your job to, you know, call up Bill Simmonson

1164
01:11:19.840 --> 01:11:23.199
middle of an interviewer. No,
it's the opposite of my job. But

1165
01:11:24.920 --> 01:11:30.399
yes, exactly. You wrote about
the von Erks in the book. Well

1166
01:11:30.439 --> 01:11:34.640
I should talk about this because there's
the topics you cover is a testament to

1167
01:11:34.720 --> 01:11:39.800
what we're talking about here and why
my job is one of the best jobs

1168
01:11:39.800 --> 01:11:42.760
in the world in terms of a
subject to cover and in fact, before

1169
01:11:42.760 --> 01:11:44.720
I get to Von Erics, because
I don't want to forget to do this

1170
01:11:44.760 --> 01:11:48.760
before we go. You're the book
publishing industry, you have a history of

1171
01:11:48.760 --> 01:11:51.119
that. Now you've written a book. I get asked this a lot,

1172
01:11:51.159 --> 01:11:56.319
and I really want to know your
answer. Why has there not been a

1173
01:11:56.560 --> 01:12:02.880
major biographer with great resources who's written
about one of the most fascinating pop culture

1174
01:12:03.119 --> 01:12:08.640
iconic businessmen of the last thirty years, Vincent j or Vince Vincent K.

1175
01:12:08.760 --> 01:12:14.000
McMahon. Why has that book not
been written? That's a really good question.

1176
01:12:14.039 --> 01:12:15.600
I mean, there have been some
profiles. I think that you know,

1177
01:12:15.640 --> 01:12:18.560
we kind of keep circling back to
the same answer, which is that

1178
01:12:19.680 --> 01:12:25.920
the sort of institutional mainstream media is
not that interested in in wrestling overall,

1179
01:12:25.960 --> 01:12:30.439
and so it's a tough pitch.
But to get more specific than that,

1180
01:12:30.359 --> 01:12:32.560
I think it probably has a lot
to do with, you know, with

1181
01:12:32.800 --> 01:12:38.239
Vince himself. He I would I
would guess that he either has plans for

1182
01:12:38.279 --> 01:12:41.560
a memoir or has it ninety percent
written by some you know, by some

1183
01:12:41.640 --> 01:12:45.079
secret ghostwriter somewhere. And I know
that he's you know, there's ww is

1184
01:12:45.119 --> 01:12:48.279
just so proprietary with themselves and with
their and with with with you know,

1185
01:12:48.319 --> 01:12:54.600
their holdings. You know. Uh. Bill Simmons, you know, does

1186
01:12:54.640 --> 01:12:59.119
the thirty for thirty documentaries at ESPN, and and he is from day one

1187
01:12:59.199 --> 01:13:01.359
has been trying to do an Under
the Giant documentary and found that it's impossible

1188
01:13:01.359 --> 01:13:05.600
to do because you know, WWE
owns everything. It owns enough that they

1189
01:13:05.640 --> 01:13:11.000
can't get they can't get everything that
they need. And and you know,

1190
01:13:11.039 --> 01:13:13.039
it's a good question. I mean, I'm sure a lot of people will

1191
01:13:13.039 --> 01:13:16.880
be interested in in in a book
about Vince and and but I you know,

1192
01:13:17.039 --> 01:13:19.880
Vince would kind of have to make
himself available for that book to really

1193
01:13:19.920 --> 01:13:25.760
be the be All ind All book
or Vince mcmahnon. And I don't say

1194
01:13:25.760 --> 01:13:28.760
this, Crassley would have to die
and the people who know him very well

1195
01:13:28.800 --> 01:13:32.159
who don't dare speak would feel more
open to speaking about him on the record.

1196
01:13:32.159 --> 01:13:34.640
I mean, we this this interview
series we've done for over two years,

1197
01:13:34.720 --> 01:13:39.359
Interview Friday has been great because it's
disciplined me to do an interview every

1198
01:13:39.359 --> 01:13:42.279
week, you know, I mean
we do four or five long form interviews

1199
01:13:42.319 --> 01:13:45.359
a year in a good year,
you know when they'd go five, six

1200
01:13:45.359 --> 01:13:47.199
seventy eight hours with Kevin Nash,
Erk Bishoff or Steve Austin or whatever,

1201
01:13:47.239 --> 01:13:51.399
and they were great. But like
every week interviewing people, it's it's forced,

1202
01:13:51.399 --> 01:13:54.960
it's disciplining me to do it.
And along the way we've interviewed all

1203
01:13:54.960 --> 01:13:58.680
these ex writers and ex wrestlers who
we have I think a documentary worth of

1204
01:13:58.720 --> 01:14:01.479
footage, you know, or audio
on these people and you get them into

1205
01:14:01.479 --> 01:14:05.119
a into a studio to talk about
you know, at the ex writers who

1206
01:14:05.119 --> 01:14:08.800
have worked with Vincic Mann in recent
years and the rest with them in the

1207
01:14:08.880 --> 01:14:11.880
nineties, you get that. You
sit them down and you don't need WW

1208
01:14:12.039 --> 01:14:15.239
footage, You just use photographs from
photographers who own rights to their stuff.

1209
01:14:16.239 --> 01:14:19.159
I think you can put something together. It might not be FTSPN standards of

1210
01:14:19.159 --> 01:14:23.720
needing the most contemporary footage of John
Cena and WrestleMania, but that stuff is

1211
01:14:23.760 --> 01:14:26.760
out there and those people are out
there, and I just find Vincent Man

1212
01:14:27.079 --> 01:14:30.079
so fascinating. But I want to
know more. But I think it will

1213
01:14:30.159 --> 01:14:35.279
take a major book publisher in an
author, a biographer with credibility to be

1214
01:14:35.319 --> 01:14:41.119
able to use his techniques and his
connections and his resources to make that happen.

1215
01:14:41.119 --> 01:14:43.840
And I'd love to see it,
and I totally agree with Vince Wicmann

1216
01:14:43.880 --> 01:14:45.479
dies, Yeah, No, I
mean it would definitely take it would definitely

1217
01:14:45.520 --> 01:14:48.079
take an author with with this way
to make it happen, not just with

1218
01:14:48.159 --> 01:14:50.159
Vince, but with the on the
publishing side too. I mean, the

1219
01:14:50.159 --> 01:14:56.039
one thing you always hear in editorial
boardrooms in New York City when somebody when

1220
01:14:56.039 --> 01:14:58.760
a topic comes up, when a
subject for a book comes up, that

1221
01:14:58.840 --> 01:15:01.680
the editors are even and remotely inclined
to be dismissive of. They always say

1222
01:15:02.079 --> 01:15:08.039
that sounds like a magazine article,
and that's the and that's that's I'm guessing

1223
01:15:08.039 --> 01:15:11.319
that's what happened if somebody was pitching, you know, four hundred pages on

1224
01:15:11.399 --> 01:15:20.680
vinceling Man. Every Sunday night,
catch Wrestling Night in America on PW Torchdailycast

1225
01:15:20.720 --> 01:15:25.680
dot Com, hosted by me PW
Torch calumnist Greg Parks. Each week,

1226
01:15:25.720 --> 01:15:28.640
I'll welcome a co host from the
Torch family to discuss the big shows and

1227
01:15:28.720 --> 01:15:31.439
pro wrestling, taking your calls and
emails. You can listen live most week's

1228
01:15:31.439 --> 01:15:35.560
beginning at eight pm Eastern on Sunday
nights with a WWE or Impact pay per

1229
01:15:35.680 --> 01:15:39.039
view, we go on the air. At the conclusion of that pay per

1230
01:15:39.119 --> 01:15:41.399
view. You can listen live,
but of course, the full show is

1231
01:15:41.439 --> 01:15:45.479
available for download on demand anytime shortly
after it airs. Visit PW torchdailycast dot

1232
01:15:45.520 --> 01:15:48.840
com and click the live stream link
to find the next scheduled live show link.

1233
01:15:48.920 --> 01:15:54.319
Search PW torch and Apple Podcasts or
your podcast app to subscribe Wrestling Night

1234
01:15:54.319 --> 01:16:10.880
in America every Sunday, PW torchdailycast
dot com. Yeah, boy, and

1235
01:16:10.960 --> 01:16:12.800
I just I mean, you know
too, I think you would agree.

1236
01:16:12.840 --> 01:16:15.399
I think they're wrong, and I
think people are curious about it for all

1237
01:16:15.399 --> 01:16:16.560
the reason like you write this book
and you're like, oh, I mussk

1238
01:16:16.640 --> 01:16:18.640
me on and I'm on this and
that and all these people come out of

1239
01:16:18.680 --> 01:16:21.399
the woodwork. I think a book
on Vincent Man, he's somebody who's so

1240
01:16:21.439 --> 01:16:27.079
many people now in power who are
reading books but maybe haven't watched wrestling for

1241
01:16:27.159 --> 01:16:29.600
years, would be like, Oh, there's a book on Vincent Man.

1242
01:16:29.640 --> 01:16:30.359
I'm buying that. I want to
know. I want to know more about

1243
01:16:30.359 --> 01:16:32.479
this guy that I watched in the
eighties or in the nineties. And the

1244
01:16:32.520 --> 01:16:38.279
attitude. Yeah, the cartoon era. Yeah, I think there's an untapped

1245
01:16:38.359 --> 01:16:40.520
market. But anyway, my pitch
is over. I'm not going to profit

1246
01:16:40.520 --> 01:16:44.840
from it. I just want to
read it. Let me throw another quote

1247
01:16:44.880 --> 01:16:46.720
at you and then we'll do.
You have a few more minutes to be

1248
01:16:47.079 --> 01:16:49.159
with us, David, Yeah,
I have a few minutes. I got

1249
01:16:49.159 --> 01:16:51.239
to get out of here pretty soon
though, so yeah, go ahead.

1250
01:16:51.560 --> 01:16:54.479
Very good, because I want to
do a little VP after show for the

1251
01:16:54.560 --> 01:16:58.000
VIP members, So we'll wrap up
on this question. You know what,

1252
01:16:58.119 --> 01:17:00.000
Let's let's not do that. I'm
going to use this as a teaser.

1253
01:17:00.279 --> 01:17:03.239
If you want to go VIP PW
Torch dot com, slash go VIP.

1254
01:17:03.600 --> 01:17:06.199
That's where you get in the door. You get twenty five plus years worth

1255
01:17:06.239 --> 01:17:10.439
of back issues in PDF text format. Are both tons of audio shows,

1256
01:17:10.479 --> 01:17:13.359
over one hundred radio shows from early
nineties etvery access to our website, our

1257
01:17:13.439 --> 01:17:15.319
VIP form, tons of exclusive articles
that I write every week, and the

1258
01:17:15.319 --> 01:17:18.119
staff rights that are assembled in the
Torch news litter each week. On and

1259
01:17:18.119 --> 01:17:21.800
on and on PW Torch dot com
slash go VP. As a sign up

1260
01:17:21.840 --> 01:17:25.039
page, you can hear the rest
of my interview with David with a few

1261
01:17:25.039 --> 01:17:28.520
minutes we have left if you go
VIP. Thanks to all the VIP members

1262
01:17:28.560 --> 01:17:31.199
for joining us. David. The
book The Squared Circle, Life, Death

1263
01:17:31.239 --> 01:17:34.359
and Professional Wrestling available I know on
Nook because that's how I bought it,

1264
01:17:35.600 --> 01:17:42.159
and also Amazon also bookstores. Anything
else that you want to plug? Twitter

1265
01:17:42.359 --> 01:17:45.920
or grantline dot com. Yeah no, yeah, exactly right. I'm on

1266
01:17:45.960 --> 01:17:49.239
Grantland and aka the mask Man on
Twitter and man, seriously, thanks for

1267
01:17:49.279 --> 01:17:53.760
having me on. This has been
fun and I really appreciate it. And

1268
01:17:53.800 --> 01:17:56.119
you know, if you guys stick
around for VIP, I will tell you

1269
01:17:56.199 --> 01:18:00.000
what I really think of Bill Simmons. Thanks very much, all right,

1270
01:18:00.079 --> 01:18:01.760
appreciate all the listeners. Thanks,
by the way, for a record month

1271
01:18:01.760 --> 01:18:05.239
in October. I said it earlier
this week. We broke our listenership record

1272
01:18:05.239 --> 01:18:10.600
in October and we continue to grow. I appreciate that we're the top sports

1273
01:18:10.640 --> 01:18:14.000
podcast dot blog talk radio dot com
out of like fourteen thousand shows, and

1274
01:18:14.640 --> 01:18:17.399
one of the top sports and obviously
prosing podcasts and iTunes. And we appreciate

1275
01:18:17.399 --> 01:18:20.640
everybody for your support. Keep spreading
the word. Follow me on Twitter at

1276
01:18:20.720 --> 01:18:26.279
the Wade Keller and you can follow
our brand at pw torch and of course

1277
01:18:26.479 --> 01:18:30.560
the main place to go is pwtorch
dot com for the daily ASPW Torch feature,

1278
01:18:30.960 --> 01:18:35.640
all star panel and more. And
download our free Pwtorch app in in

1279
01:18:35.720 --> 01:18:40.840
your app store on your smart device. And don't forget big months and really

1280
01:18:40.840 --> 01:18:43.159
big couple months to close up the
year in the world of MMA. Our

1281
01:18:43.199 --> 01:18:46.840
sister brand, mmatorch dot com has
you covered live coverage, pre show coverage,

1282
01:18:46.840 --> 01:18:50.920
postgame coverage at mmatorch dot com and
you can also search MMA Torch in

1283
01:18:50.960 --> 01:18:55.640
an app store to get our MMA
Torch app thanks to David. And on

1284
01:18:55.640 --> 01:18:58.640
the other side of the music,
we've got some good stuff waiting for VIP

1285
01:18:58.760 --> 01:19:26.600
members. All right, David,
this is a quote in your book to

1286
01:19:26.680 --> 01:19:29.279
start off the VIP the after show
portions of the program that I have not

1287
01:19:29.359 --> 01:19:31.880
gotten emails on yet, but I
know I'm going to when people start reading

1288
01:19:31.880 --> 01:19:36.760
the book. Okay, all right. This has to do with Internet fans

1289
01:19:36.920 --> 01:19:41.920
and in the Chris Penwa Eddie Garrow
chapter. This is on page three oh

1290
01:19:41.920 --> 01:19:44.319
seven at least on my nook.
I don't know if it matches up with

1291
01:19:44.359 --> 01:19:50.800
the hardcover or the hardcover the hard
copy Internet understand the backstage working the average

1292
01:19:50.840 --> 01:19:55.239
fans built. They treasure history and
reality as much as the storylines, and

1293
01:19:55.279 --> 01:19:59.199
they prize the qualities. At mainstream
wrestling, decision makers frequently overlook charismo ver

1294
01:19:59.239 --> 01:20:01.239
size entering a bill the over physique, and of course they all consider themselves

1295
01:20:01.239 --> 01:20:04.000
smarter than vincick Mann and all the
promoters who have come along to challenge him,

1296
01:20:04.239 --> 01:20:10.640
and sometimes they have a point.
You also referred to those fans as

1297
01:20:11.279 --> 01:20:15.399
egghead commentariat. Did I say that, right? Commentariat? Right? And

1298
01:20:15.800 --> 01:20:24.000
meta fans and smart marks. And
I don't say this defensively or in defense

1299
01:20:24.079 --> 01:20:26.640
of our readers, but I think
people who read The Torch and listen to

1300
01:20:26.640 --> 01:20:30.279
the show are going to say,
hey, he's talking about me. So

1301
01:20:30.359 --> 01:20:33.239
I want you to explain because from
you being at you know, kind of

1302
01:20:33.239 --> 01:20:42.560
outside the pure wrestling wrestling only media
but covering wrestling, talk about your perception

1303
01:20:42.800 --> 01:20:46.239
and the way you categorize fans,
because I'm fascinated by how people look at

1304
01:20:46.319 --> 01:20:49.439
quote us and the generalizations that are
made. You know, what's accurate,

1305
01:20:49.439 --> 01:20:53.479
what's not, and that kind of
thing. So, and I'll frame it

1306
01:20:53.520 --> 01:20:56.159
in that. In the Chris Ben
Whide to Grow chapter David. He wrote

1307
01:20:56.199 --> 01:21:01.920
about how they got a push because
they were looked at by these smart fans

1308
01:21:02.039 --> 01:21:06.199
because of their work rate as underdogs
who it was like you said, it

1309
01:21:06.199 --> 01:21:10.039
was almost a secret handshake to know
that Chris ben wanted to grow were great

1310
01:21:10.079 --> 01:21:13.960
workers, and so kind of frame
it in that context too. Yeah,

1311
01:21:14.119 --> 01:21:15.359
well, I mean, specifically to
ben Wan Guerrero. I think you know,

1312
01:21:15.399 --> 01:21:17.960
the point I'm trying to make is
that they were underdogs. They were

1313
01:21:18.000 --> 01:21:21.359
presented as underdogs both in there in
the stories you know, on screen that

1314
01:21:21.439 --> 01:21:26.079
led up to it, but they
were more But they were more metaphorically underdogs

1315
01:21:26.119 --> 01:21:30.319
because a huge majority of the fans
knew that what they were fighting against wasn't

1316
01:21:30.319 --> 01:21:32.760
their opponent in the ring, but
just the willingness of Vince and everybody else

1317
01:21:32.760 --> 01:21:38.079
in the power structure to let guys
that look like them be be champions.

1318
01:21:39.359 --> 01:21:42.199
But you know, when I talk
about the you know, the smart marks

1319
01:21:42.199 --> 01:21:44.199
and stuff, and even when I
write about it on Grantline, a good

1320
01:21:44.199 --> 01:21:48.159
bit. You know when you go
back in wrestling history, and I think

1321
01:21:48.199 --> 01:21:50.520
that one of the most I might
have said this earlier, forgive me if

1322
01:21:50.520 --> 01:21:54.359
I'm repeating myself, but one of
the most important. One of the coolest

1323
01:21:54.359 --> 01:21:57.880
things about wrestling is that different than
any sport or their entertainment venue, the

1324
01:21:57.920 --> 01:22:01.399
crowd interaction is at the very cool
of what wrestling is, right, Like

1325
01:22:01.439 --> 01:22:05.359
you have to be I mean,
to be a good guy means you're getting

1326
01:22:05.439 --> 01:22:09.159
cheered, and to be a bad
guy means you're getting booed. Like the

1327
01:22:09.199 --> 01:22:12.479
interaction with the crowd is really central. Or we've gotten to a really weird

1328
01:22:12.520 --> 01:22:16.479
world in the past five years or
so where you know, fans are cheering

1329
01:22:16.520 --> 01:22:21.479
ironically at events, but you know, with the rise of the Internet and

1330
01:22:21.640 --> 01:22:27.439
going back much further than five years, there's a voice of the fans that

1331
01:22:27.520 --> 01:22:31.199
exists outside of the arena. And
I think it's really interesting to look at

1332
01:22:31.239 --> 01:22:33.840
it. I don't think the jury's
out on what actually and what it actually

1333
01:22:33.920 --> 01:22:36.920
means for the wrestling world, but
I think it's you know, it's it's

1334
01:22:36.920 --> 01:22:44.920
important to me to keep to keep
trying to evaluate it and uh and you

1335
01:22:44.960 --> 01:22:46.439
know, I think that it's totally
I mean, I don't, I don't.

1336
01:22:46.479 --> 01:22:50.079
Maybe you can point to a specific, specific clause in that in that

1337
01:22:50.479 --> 01:22:54.159
that you read that you think will
cause the most offense, but I think

1338
01:22:54.159 --> 01:22:57.760
that you know, most wrestling fans
that I know will would would you know,

1339
01:22:57.840 --> 01:23:00.439
agree with it? Like everybody.
I mean, listen to the one

1340
01:23:00.479 --> 01:23:02.680
thing, uh, you know,
one thing that get that I that kind

1341
01:23:02.680 --> 01:23:08.239
of that kind of I take umbrage
with, and not wrestling, not wrestling

1342
01:23:08.279 --> 01:23:11.880
fandom, but just online culture in
general. Is that you'll go into a

1343
01:23:11.960 --> 01:23:15.920
chat room and a hundred people will
complain about one hundred different things on the

1344
01:23:15.920 --> 01:23:17.800
same TV show, and then they'll
all come away with it thinking we all

1345
01:23:17.840 --> 01:23:21.479
hated it for the same reason,
you know. And uh, and I

1346
01:23:21.479 --> 01:23:24.720
think that there's some of that in
the wrestling fan base, so to the

1347
01:23:24.720 --> 01:23:27.560
extent that like I said, well, yeah, you know, sometimes they're

1348
01:23:27.600 --> 01:23:30.039
not always wrong, or sometimes they're
even right. I mean, I think

1349
01:23:30.039 --> 01:23:32.479
that's totally true. I think that
wrestling fans you know or you know,

1350
01:23:32.800 --> 01:23:35.359
it's great that their voices are out
there on the internet. Like I said

1351
01:23:35.359 --> 01:23:39.199
earlier, it's awesome that people can
like, you know, talk crap about

1352
01:23:39.279 --> 01:23:41.600
me on the internet, because that's
I think that's an awesome I think it's

1353
01:23:41.640 --> 01:23:45.840
a really cool thing, even for
me as a writer. But but you

1354
01:23:45.880 --> 01:23:49.840
know, it's it's you got to
you got I mean, talking talking crap

1355
01:23:49.840 --> 01:23:54.039
about something is not the same as
like doing it better than what's being done,

1356
01:23:55.239 --> 01:23:58.920
and it's you know, just important
to it's just important to know that

1357
01:23:59.159 --> 01:24:01.199
you know it. I think it's
important to like not always be down about

1358
01:24:01.199 --> 01:24:04.720
everything, just in general in life. But yeah, I mean, I

1359
01:24:04.720 --> 01:24:08.199
guess I guess that's I guess that's
the That's all I have to say about.

1360
01:24:08.439 --> 01:24:13.439
Yeah. No, I guess we're
we're nobody speaks with the unified voice,

1361
01:24:13.479 --> 01:24:15.800
and I like we in the on
powe torch dot com and the ask

1362
01:24:15.840 --> 01:24:18.079
pw Torch feature, we kind of
go on a mini rant we did it

1363
01:24:18.079 --> 01:24:21.479
today again where somebody called up and
said the IWC doesn't like TAA and isn't

1364
01:24:21.479 --> 01:24:25.920
it their responsibility as wrestling fans to
support them because there should be another place

1365
01:24:25.920 --> 01:24:28.560
for wrestlers to work. And I'm
like, no, no, no,

1366
01:24:28.640 --> 01:24:30.319
and no. First of all,
THEWC doesn't speak with one voice. Internet

1367
01:24:30.319 --> 01:24:32.960
fans don't. You can go to
a message board and maybe one you know,

1368
01:24:33.000 --> 01:24:35.880
a few people can influence a bunch
of people to a consensus. But

1369
01:24:36.239 --> 01:24:39.720
I mean, I argue with Bruce
Mitchell for two hours every week, and

1370
01:24:39.960 --> 01:24:43.279
we are pretty you know, we
we agree on a lot but we don't

1371
01:24:43.319 --> 01:24:47.239
agree on a lot also, and
so we always say the quote IWC doesn't

1372
01:24:47.239 --> 01:24:50.520
really exist as an entity that speaks
with one voice. In those generalizations,

1373
01:24:50.560 --> 01:24:56.680
I think undercut the people who should
get the attention, not the eggheads who

1374
01:24:56.760 --> 01:25:00.439
are just spouting off and just being
negative to be negative. But there's more

1375
01:25:00.439 --> 01:25:02.840
out there. And it's like somebody
saying, well, I don't take David

1376
01:25:02.840 --> 01:25:05.600
seriously because he writes quote on the
Internet, and I think we're moving away

1377
01:25:05.640 --> 01:25:09.359
from that now because the magazines are
going away. These peoples are going away

1378
01:25:09.399 --> 01:25:12.119
in terms of print there. You
know, people are seeing there's a lot

1379
01:25:12.119 --> 01:25:15.159
of good journalism on quote the internet, but it's it's been generalized about so

1380
01:25:15.319 --> 01:25:19.920
much for so long, good work
on the Internet or good wrestling reporting that

1381
01:25:20.039 --> 01:25:25.119
I think the Torch fans are going
to go Wait a second. I choose

1382
01:25:25.159 --> 01:25:28.239
who I listen to and the message
boards I go to, and I think

1383
01:25:28.239 --> 01:25:31.680
there's a case to be made that
we don't all speak with one voice,

1384
01:25:31.680 --> 01:25:35.239
but that we speak intelligently and come
to, you know, our own conclusions,

1385
01:25:35.239 --> 01:25:39.960
not because we all are eggheads and
smart marks. So I think that

1386
01:25:40.119 --> 01:25:42.600
language was kind of the buzzwords that
I'll get some people to go, hey,

1387
01:25:42.640 --> 01:25:44.479
wait a second, what's is he
talking about me? And if so,

1388
01:25:45.159 --> 01:25:47.319
I think that's dismissing the type of
thought that we put into the discussions

1389
01:25:47.319 --> 01:25:49.439
that we have. Oh no,
I mean I wouldn't. I'm honest to

1390
01:25:49.479 --> 01:25:53.880
god, I wasn't thinking about you
or anybody of your I mean even remotely

1391
01:25:53.880 --> 01:25:55.680
close to your cowbod. What I
was saying that, I'm just mean,

1392
01:25:55.760 --> 01:26:00.800
like the just the general you know, just just I totally get the you

1393
01:26:00.840 --> 01:26:04.840
know, the internet wrestling community doesn't
exist as such, but you know,

1394
01:26:05.079 --> 01:26:09.800
but positivity. But like positive things, there is a there is a you

1395
01:26:09.840 --> 01:26:13.800
know, a united front on things
like how awesome ben Wan Guerrero were and

1396
01:26:13.840 --> 01:26:16.800
how awesome you know, Daniel Brian
is. Now, I just think it's

1397
01:26:17.000 --> 01:26:21.039
it's not very fruitful when everybody just
like groans that they're messing up with Daniel

1398
01:26:21.039 --> 01:26:25.000
Brian with when there's not when no
one in a million years could get you

1399
01:26:25.039 --> 01:26:28.000
know, I mean trying to get
trying to get people on a message board

1400
01:26:28.000 --> 01:26:30.760
to agree on what they should do
instead is like you know, hurting cats.

1401
01:26:30.800 --> 01:26:33.640
So yeah, it's it's you know, it's it's tough. It's tough,

1402
01:26:33.640 --> 01:26:35.800
you know, it'd be. You
know, in a lot of ways,

1403
01:26:35.800 --> 01:26:40.000
it was a much better world when
the United cheers, you know,

1404
01:26:40.000 --> 01:26:43.840
when the entire crowd erupted when Hulk
Hogan's music played, and Vince knew he

1405
01:26:43.880 --> 01:26:53.279
was doing the right thing. We're
just in a different place now. You

1406
01:26:53.319 --> 01:26:56.159
don't have to wait for the Waight
Keller for wrestling post show to find out

1407
01:26:56.159 --> 01:26:59.199
what I thought of Monday Night Raw
SmackDown. Each week, you can check

1408
01:26:59.199 --> 01:27:03.880
out my report that are updated live
throughout Raw and SmackDown at pwtorch dot com.

1409
01:27:03.880 --> 01:27:08.399
My written report will tell you what's
happening in detail in case you missed

1410
01:27:08.399 --> 01:27:12.520
the show, and it will also
analyze key segments and give my random thoughts

1411
01:27:12.920 --> 01:27:15.439
quips on what I am watching as
it airs. So check it out every

1412
01:27:15.479 --> 01:27:21.399
Monday night and Tuesday night at pwtorch
dot com. That also applies to WWE

1413
01:27:21.399 --> 01:27:25.760
pay perviews. I cover those live
at pw torch dot com with a detailed

1414
01:27:25.800 --> 01:27:29.359
written report with star ratings, and
of course you can find other TV reports

1415
01:27:29.399 --> 01:27:33.359
from other contributors to PW torch such
as nxt roh, Impact Wrestling and more.

1416
01:27:33.680 --> 01:27:38.880
Check it out pwtorch dot com your
first stop for TV and pay per

1417
01:27:38.960 --> 01:27:54.319
view written reports. It's interesting because
back then when Hogan was around, the

1418
01:27:54.319 --> 01:27:57.960
people who would be booing Hogan,
We're going to see Rick Flair. Yeah,

1419
01:27:58.279 --> 01:28:00.239
and now that doesn't exist, And
that's partially T and A's faults for

1420
01:28:00.279 --> 01:28:03.159
the last you know, a dozen
years not building that up and creating a

1421
01:28:03.159 --> 01:28:06.079
true alternative. But you know,
there were anti Hogan fans. It's just

1422
01:28:06.119 --> 01:28:10.640
they weren't, you know, kind
of they weren't. They had a choice,

1423
01:28:10.640 --> 01:28:12.760
and they didn't in order to see
pro wrestling something that they loved.

1424
01:28:12.760 --> 01:28:15.159
They didn't have to endure a main
event with a guy that they'd despised.

1425
01:28:15.239 --> 01:28:17.319
They just went bought a ticket for
the NWA or WW, which they saw

1426
01:28:17.359 --> 01:28:20.680
is more cool and more athletic and
less cartoonish. And that doesn't exist anymore.

1427
01:28:20.680 --> 01:28:24.920
And that's kind of where I think
John Cena is not the first of

1428
01:28:24.920 --> 01:28:28.479
a kind, but the most,
you know, the most extreme example of

1429
01:28:28.520 --> 01:28:30.800
somebody being pushed, where the fan
base, who have no choice anymore,

1430
01:28:31.760 --> 01:28:36.079
just let out their frustrations after they
pay money that goes in Johnsena's pocket,

1431
01:28:36.079 --> 01:28:39.159
which is the irony of it.
Yeah, No, I mean, and

1432
01:28:39.199 --> 01:28:42.039
I wrote about this some time ago
I mean, wrestling only exists, and

1433
01:28:42.159 --> 01:28:45.880
I mean, I mean, wrestling
is always best when there's competition. And

1434
01:28:45.920 --> 01:28:49.880
then after WCW, you know,
died out or disappeared who was bought by

1435
01:28:49.960 --> 01:28:54.239
Vents, they tried to recreate that
with Raw and SmackDown. I mean,

1436
01:28:54.279 --> 01:28:58.239
obviously they weren't literally competing, but
I think the only and it failed because

1437
01:28:58.239 --> 01:29:00.479
the only way you can you could
actually functionally make that work would be to

1438
01:29:01.560 --> 01:29:05.239
you know, really formally separate the
you know, separate the rosters and the

1439
01:29:05.279 --> 01:29:12.399
writing staff and everything else, and
you know, to and when I wrote

1440
01:29:12.399 --> 01:29:14.359
the piece, the kind of like, you know, the gimmick of the

1441
01:29:14.359 --> 01:29:16.560
piece was that they were sort of
doing that for a while with Punkinsino,

1442
01:29:16.640 --> 01:29:19.479
where like neither they didn't really exist
in the same universe for a while,

1443
01:29:19.560 --> 01:29:24.520
Sina was just totally doing his own
thing and not interacting and uh, and

1444
01:29:24.560 --> 01:29:26.960
they were I think they were deliberately
trying to keep him apart so when they

1445
01:29:26.960 --> 01:29:30.119
came back together it would be more
meaningful. But you know, it's just

1446
01:29:30.199 --> 01:29:33.439
impossible for someone to be your own
competition, and it's really not as much

1447
01:29:33.479 --> 01:29:36.000
fun when it's just a monopoly,
you know, because when there's when there's

1448
01:29:36.000 --> 01:29:41.159
no functional competition at all. Yeah, yeah, and yeah, it's it's

1449
01:29:41.199 --> 01:29:45.239
just part of part of the ever
changing landscape of the industry, you know.

1450
01:29:45.279 --> 01:29:48.239
I mean, it's just there's wrestling
is never what it was five or

1451
01:29:48.279 --> 01:29:51.640
ten years earlier. But people who
became fans or loved wrestling the most during

1452
01:29:51.640 --> 01:29:55.039
a certain era wanted to go back
to that way that it was. And

1453
01:29:55.199 --> 01:29:57.640
yeah, and you also remember it
better than it was too. I mean,

1454
01:29:57.720 --> 01:30:00.760
like you know, I mean like
people you always to hear people like

1455
01:30:00.800 --> 01:30:02.439
say that, like I want to
make just let Dusty you know, right

1456
01:30:02.600 --> 01:30:06.720
raw, and it's like, man, Dusty Rose wrote like like two sentences

1457
01:30:06.800 --> 01:30:10.279
or an episode of the NWA shows
that he was booking, you know,

1458
01:30:10.359 --> 01:30:13.640
I mean, it's like just a
totally different worlds. I got a kick

1459
01:30:13.640 --> 01:30:17.039
out of it. And where you
wrote about I think it might have been

1460
01:30:17.039 --> 01:30:19.560
the Big Boss Man chapter somebody was
writing about early nineties and you said,

1461
01:30:19.560 --> 01:30:24.000
and the writers blank blank blank,
And I'm like, it's so natural to

1462
01:30:24.000 --> 01:30:26.720
write that now because of why are
wrestling has come? But there were writers

1463
01:30:26.720 --> 01:30:29.760
then, because there were bookers who, like you, set that down and

1464
01:30:29.800 --> 01:30:32.000
maybe wrote two lines and had a
format sheet. But they weren't. Actually,

1465
01:30:32.199 --> 01:30:35.600
no, there was no term writers
in wrestling until probably, you know,

1466
01:30:35.680 --> 01:30:39.720
nineteen ninety nine. Yeah, until
they started hiring people who had previously

1467
01:30:39.760 --> 01:30:41.720
been writers, you know, I
mean, until that was like the job

1468
01:30:41.760 --> 01:30:43.840
description they came with. Yeah,
yeah, no, no, I mean

1469
01:30:43.880 --> 01:30:45.159
it was weird, not that far
moved from the days when it was.

1470
01:30:45.359 --> 01:30:48.600
I talked to Trible h about this, and he was sort of perplexed by

1471
01:30:48.600 --> 01:30:51.960
the very question because it seemed like
such a natural transition to him. But

1472
01:30:51.960 --> 01:30:55.319
we're not that far moved from it. It was, you know, Vincent

1473
01:30:55.399 --> 01:30:58.920
pat sitting down at a table a
bar and figuring out what the TV was

1474
01:30:58.920 --> 01:31:01.119
for the next two months, something
you know exactly, you know when it

1475
01:31:01.159 --> 01:31:03.199
is. I mean, you look
at the numbers that came out last week

1476
01:31:03.239 --> 01:31:06.960
and the you know, television rights
fees is just it's pulling ahead in the

1477
01:31:08.079 --> 01:31:12.319
race for the dominant source of revenue
and house shows if you combine ticket sales

1478
01:31:12.319 --> 01:31:15.600
and in venue merchandise sales, house
shows is now way ahead of pay per

1479
01:31:15.680 --> 01:31:19.560
view. But it's like it used
to be, it's all about pay per

1480
01:31:19.640 --> 01:31:21.840
view. We've got we've got to
earn money on pay per view, and

1481
01:31:21.880 --> 01:31:25.840
so a man called me in the
right around the time that Nitro was really

1482
01:31:25.840 --> 01:31:28.000
taking off, and he's like,
wait, this is awful. Ped Turner

1483
01:31:28.000 --> 01:31:31.279
spending money from other divisions to subsidize
WSW because they're putting all their main events

1484
01:31:31.319 --> 01:31:33.359
on TV because they don't need to
make money on pay per view. But

1485
01:31:33.439 --> 01:31:35.399
I do. That's my life blood. Without that, I go out of

1486
01:31:35.399 --> 01:31:39.279
business. This is awful. You
need to write about this, and you

1487
01:31:39.319 --> 01:31:43.079
know, this is this is predatory
practices, which was always funny when Vince's

1488
01:31:43.119 --> 01:31:45.600
predatory given the birth of the Survivor
series and which was designed explicitly to be

1489
01:31:46.039 --> 01:31:48.439
out of it. That was what
it was. Yeah, yeah, but

1490
01:31:48.560 --> 01:31:51.079
like it's it's funny because now I
think they're trying to find a way to

1491
01:31:51.079 --> 01:31:53.560
get rid of pay per view.
You know, they're like, I mean,

1492
01:31:53.600 --> 01:31:56.239
it's except for WrestleMania. It's like
it's this burden that gets in the

1493
01:31:56.239 --> 01:31:59.800
way of their episodic TV shows.
They see themselves now as this weekly TV

1494
01:31:59.880 --> 01:32:02.359
series. Unfortunately, they don't hold
themselves for the standards of you know,

1495
01:32:02.439 --> 01:32:04.600
good writing. But yeah, well, I mean, I mean definitely,

1496
01:32:04.600 --> 01:32:09.520
when they renegotiate their TV contract,
it's gonna that's gonna be the just such

1497
01:32:10.039 --> 01:32:13.760
like a c change is how they
how there their revenue comes in. And

1498
01:32:14.159 --> 01:32:17.840
I wouldn't be at all surprised if
we were. If you know, if

1499
01:32:17.880 --> 01:32:21.920
there was an actual WW network that
was a subscription service in the next year

1500
01:32:21.960 --> 01:32:27.439
that was that eventually had you know, eight pay per views such as or

1501
01:32:27.520 --> 01:32:30.479
you know, that would absorbed of
the pay per views and then maybe at

1502
01:32:30.479 --> 01:32:33.640
that point there would be you know, they would start eliminating them. It'll

1503
01:32:33.640 --> 01:32:36.159
be it'll be an interesting world.
But you know, like the more that

1504
01:32:36.600 --> 01:32:40.239
you know, you mean, you
talk about the business of WW all the

1505
01:32:40.239 --> 01:32:42.600
time, and it's just like the
more that you deal with it, the

1506
01:32:42.640 --> 01:32:45.479
more you just kind of come back
to the sad truth that they're just sort

1507
01:32:45.520 --> 01:32:49.000
of you know that they're that they're
in hawk to their investors, into the

1508
01:32:49.640 --> 01:32:54.960
TV networks, uh and the cable
companies and like, not in a bad

1509
01:32:55.000 --> 01:32:57.119
way. It's the way that everybody
is. But it's but you know,

1510
01:32:57.479 --> 01:33:01.439
it's just hard to imagine the way
out unless it's you know, unless it's

1511
01:33:01.960 --> 01:33:05.399
doing it themselves. So we'll see
a couple of closing comment questions on the

1512
01:33:05.439 --> 01:33:11.840
book itself again researching it, writing
it, what did you learn that you

1513
01:33:12.000 --> 01:33:15.439
did not know before that most fascinated
or surprised you that you were excited to

1514
01:33:15.439 --> 01:33:18.840
write about in the book. Well, we talked about the Vince Senior stuff

1515
01:33:18.880 --> 01:33:21.079
before, I mean his stuff in
the paper, and there was a lot

1516
01:33:21.119 --> 01:33:24.479
of that stuff that like I was
aware of. You know, you'll see

1517
01:33:24.520 --> 01:33:28.600
reference to and you'll hear people talk
about, but really like going back and

1518
01:33:29.800 --> 01:33:31.520
you know, finding a whole bunch
of old articles and I mean like that

1519
01:33:31.920 --> 01:33:36.199
they talk about. There's a big
part in the book about Jack Sephyer when

1520
01:33:36.239 --> 01:33:40.680
he came out of the New York
Daily Mirror and decided just you know,

1521
01:33:40.720 --> 01:33:43.359
he kind of got kicked out of
the power structure in the New York wrestling

1522
01:33:43.359 --> 01:33:45.720
world and so just sort of like
out of the whole thing as a put

1523
01:33:45.760 --> 01:33:48.159
on. And that was one of
the things that like I had heard about

1524
01:33:48.239 --> 01:33:50.960
a million times, a million times. It's because it's not that much out

1525
01:33:51.000 --> 01:33:54.319
there, but I had heard about
it a handful of times, and just

1526
01:33:54.359 --> 01:33:58.239
sort of pieced together, you know, I'd never seen the newspapers or whatever,

1527
01:33:58.279 --> 01:34:00.279
so I kind of pieced together that
it was like probably in like December

1528
01:34:00.319 --> 01:34:02.920
of you know, and the and
I got the month and the and the

1529
01:34:03.600 --> 01:34:06.920
and and I went to the New
York Public Library and just sort of got

1530
01:34:06.960 --> 01:34:12.399
a whole bunch of microfiche and spend
and spend a whole day just paging through

1531
01:34:12.520 --> 01:34:15.920
newspapers and like, it's just fun
to like find things like that. You

1532
01:34:15.920 --> 01:34:18.239
know. I finally saw a weird
drawing of Jack Zeffer, and I was

1533
01:34:18.279 --> 01:34:20.279
just like, holy crap, here
it is. This is the thing.

1534
01:34:21.319 --> 01:34:25.479
And it's not like it's not like
the greatest like sea change moment as I

1535
01:34:25.680 --> 01:34:28.000
as I hoped it was going to
be, but finding it still felt like

1536
01:34:28.039 --> 01:34:30.640
it. And uh and and you
know, there's that kind of stuff.

1537
01:34:30.680 --> 01:34:33.600
All of that old history was what
was really the most interesting to me.

1538
01:34:33.720 --> 01:34:36.840
It's it was interesting to find,
you know, articles. It was interesting

1539
01:34:36.840 --> 01:34:41.640
that articles in the New Yorker and
in Colliers and stuff about wrestling existed in

1540
01:34:41.640 --> 01:34:46.000
like the thirties and forties and fifties. Even more interesting that articles as far

1541
01:34:46.039 --> 01:34:53.000
back as the thirties were pretty openly
talking about wrestling being fake. And you

1542
01:34:53.000 --> 01:34:55.680
know, they they still had doubt
those or whether or not the fans around,

1543
01:34:55.840 --> 01:34:57.640
but you know, they would they
would talk to they would talk to

1544
01:34:57.680 --> 01:35:00.640
fans about it. So you know
that kind of stuff was cool. And

1545
01:35:00.680 --> 01:35:02.199
then you know what was really cool
as a writer was just sort of like

1546
01:35:02.239 --> 01:35:06.399
piecing it all together and and you
know, trying to make sense of it

1547
01:35:06.439 --> 01:35:11.199
in terms of like just like an
intellectual timeline of I mean, what I

1548
01:35:11.800 --> 01:35:15.479
what I say in the book,
when I when I decided to write when

1549
01:35:15.479 --> 01:35:17.159
I when I was trying to figure
out how far back to go to start

1550
01:35:17.159 --> 01:35:19.319
the history of wrestling. You know, am I going to go to like

1551
01:35:19.680 --> 01:35:23.359
ancient Rome or like what am I
going to do? And then I decided,

1552
01:35:23.439 --> 01:35:25.800
no, I'm going to start the
book when wrestling is fake, when

1553
01:35:25.840 --> 01:35:30.000
wrestling turns fake. So the so
the first you know, forty pages of

1554
01:35:30.000 --> 01:35:34.079
the book are just like me kind
of grappling no pun intended with the history

1555
01:35:34.079 --> 01:35:39.079
of wrestling's fakery, and and that
that part was was you know, like

1556
01:35:39.119 --> 01:35:41.920
I said, that probably took six
months to write that that section, but

1557
01:35:41.960 --> 01:35:44.960
it was like really rewarding and one
of the most fun parts about the whole

1558
01:35:44.960 --> 01:35:55.039
process. Longing for some nostalgia or
maybe you want to learn some wrestling history,

1559
01:35:55.760 --> 01:35:59.880
don't miss the Nineties Pass cast every
Friday on the PW Towards Daily Cast.

1560
01:36:00.800 --> 01:36:04.039
Alex and Patrick will transport you thirty
years into the past by taking you

1561
01:36:04.079 --> 01:36:10.479
through the Torch issue from that very
weak follow news from the WWF and WCW

1562
01:36:10.600 --> 01:36:14.800
and all the happenings from across the
wrestling industry in real time as The Torch

1563
01:36:14.840 --> 01:36:18.359
reported it thirty years ago. That's
the nineties pass cast every Friday on the

1564
01:36:18.399 --> 01:36:33.079
PW Torch Daily Cast feed. This
is the book's clearly a result of a

1565
01:36:33.119 --> 01:36:36.000
lot of research, a lot of
recall. I mean, they're just you

1566
01:36:36.000 --> 01:36:39.840
know, gentlemen from you know,
recounting Big Boss Man storyline. It's not

1567
01:36:40.720 --> 01:36:43.319
I don't I guess it's research,
but it's kind of out there information.

1568
01:36:43.359 --> 01:36:45.199
But it's that other stuff taking up
that's real, that are the real gems.

1569
01:36:45.960 --> 01:36:47.960
And to put it all together in
that package, it's great. Where

1570
01:36:48.439 --> 01:36:51.800
I didn't get the sense yet,
did you do a lot of original interviews?

1571
01:36:51.840 --> 01:36:54.680
Did you call it? No?
No, no, really not at

1572
01:36:54.680 --> 01:36:57.119
all. And you know my cop
out is that it's is that. I

1573
01:36:57.119 --> 01:36:59.119
mean, I honest a god was
trying to write it as like a fan's

1574
01:36:59.199 --> 01:37:02.199
history. But and you know,
people who've read my stuff on Grantlin know

1575
01:37:02.239 --> 01:37:04.439
that I don't do a lot of
interviews anyway. I mean, it's it's

1576
01:37:04.520 --> 01:37:09.479
kind of a trivile age thing is
when you know it's a thing you can't

1577
01:37:09.479 --> 01:37:11.800
say no to. And I mean
obviously tried really hard to do it,

1578
01:37:11.840 --> 01:37:15.359
but you know, like I said, you're always getting worked by wrestlers.

1579
01:37:15.399 --> 01:37:19.840
And I don't know that being a
wrestling writer that I myself would be would

1580
01:37:19.880 --> 01:37:24.560
gain much from like you know,
knowing Dolph Ziggler or something, you know,

1581
01:37:24.640 --> 01:37:26.880
like it's not I don't I don't
think that that would really help my

1582
01:37:27.319 --> 01:37:31.199
help writing about him. It's like
as if he's listening, I'd love to

1583
01:37:31.199 --> 01:37:34.439
have a beer sometime. But but
no, I mean, but really it's

1584
01:37:34.479 --> 01:37:36.840
just that's not really my thing.
I mean, the great thing about wrestling

1585
01:37:36.880 --> 01:37:40.159
and I and I've said this before, I'll say it over and over again,

1586
01:37:40.800 --> 01:37:45.479
is that there is so much information
available on the internet. I mean,

1587
01:37:45.199 --> 01:37:49.720
uh, there's a lot of misinformation
out there, but the volume of

1588
01:37:49.760 --> 01:37:54.239
information is really really incredible. I
mean the amount of stuff that you amount

1589
01:37:54.239 --> 01:37:57.880
of matches you can watch on YouTube
that you used to just like hear legend

1590
01:37:57.920 --> 01:38:00.960
about or you know you'd have to
pay money to a tape whatever, it's

1591
01:38:01.000 --> 01:38:04.319
really incredible. But but just like
the words are there too. You know,

1592
01:38:05.159 --> 01:38:09.199
if you spend enough time, if
you go to like the you know,

1593
01:38:09.359 --> 01:38:12.000
the thirtiest page in your Google search, you can find a lot of

1594
01:38:12.000 --> 01:38:15.880
stuff that's really really crazy. The
hardest part about it is just figuring out

1595
01:38:15.039 --> 01:38:19.119
what is true from like the five
competing stories that you hear. Yeah,

1596
01:38:19.439 --> 01:38:21.800
but yeah, no, there's not
less, David. That's what keeps us

1597
01:38:21.800 --> 01:38:24.880
in business, you know, I
mean, I know, I know you

1598
01:38:24.920 --> 01:38:27.800
know we are you know, I
mean everything you say is true people,

1599
01:38:27.800 --> 01:38:29.720
But well now you know, it
used to be I went to the torch

1600
01:38:29.720 --> 01:38:30.640
and get results of the house show. I can get that anywhere. Now

1601
01:38:30.680 --> 01:38:34.760
it's like, yeah, but now
that there's so much bad information out there,

1602
01:38:35.000 --> 01:38:38.640
you kind of want a group of
people who you know have a reputation

1603
01:38:38.680 --> 01:38:41.199
and have followed it to maybe kind
of sit through that stuff. So it

1604
01:38:41.279 --> 01:38:44.279
is like, even as you talk
about that, it rings true with me,

1605
01:38:44.399 --> 01:38:46.680
Like that's that's the evolution of what
we do, and that's the value

1606
01:38:46.680 --> 01:38:49.680
you bring in your book and trying
to decipher all that. Yeah, No,

1607
01:38:49.760 --> 01:38:53.840
I totally I totally agree. You
need you need like resources to actually

1608
01:38:53.840 --> 01:38:57.239
be well, you need you know, a match needs a referee unless and

1609
01:38:57.359 --> 01:39:00.199
you know, in wrestling, the
referees are usually terrible, but you know,

1610
01:39:00.239 --> 01:39:02.119
when when it comes, when it's
when when it's an important moment in

1611
01:39:02.159 --> 01:39:05.239
time, they usually get it right. So that's what you guys are invaluable

1612
01:39:05.279 --> 01:39:06.680
for. And that's it, you
know. And I just, like I

1613
01:39:06.680 --> 01:39:11.520
said, tried to have I mean, just just try to do my best

1614
01:39:11.560 --> 01:39:15.760
to piece things together and hopefully may
write it in a way that it's like,

1615
01:39:15.840 --> 01:39:17.960
you know, fun and easy to
read, whether it's you know,

1616
01:39:18.199 --> 01:39:21.039
in a library or in your bathroom. Either way, I was, I

1617
01:39:21.159 --> 01:39:27.560
was, I appreciated, and I've
only skimmed the bend watch after. But

1618
01:39:27.640 --> 01:39:30.199
what I did, what I did
read, I was heartened to read that

1619
01:39:30.279 --> 01:39:36.039
you kind of drew that picture that
it was this deadly cocktail of so many

1620
01:39:36.079 --> 01:39:41.239
things that that congregated to lead to
what happened with Chris Benwa. You know

1621
01:39:41.319 --> 01:39:44.000
that it wasn't just steroids. And
if you can discredit that he was on

1622
01:39:44.000 --> 01:39:46.000
serious, well then it's just he's
a crazy person and it's not just one

1623
01:39:46.000 --> 01:39:48.640
thing that it was like you kind
of covered all the bases and that's we

1624
01:39:48.760 --> 01:39:53.319
just hit that hit. We founded
that horn over and over again in that

1625
01:39:53.399 --> 01:39:57.520
those months after the after the ben
Wa family tragedy, that it really was

1626
01:39:57.520 --> 01:40:01.880
a confluence of all these things coming
together. Years of concussions, the emotional

1627
01:40:01.880 --> 01:40:05.560
trauma of the death of Eddie that
didn't recover from being a great athlete who

1628
01:40:05.600 --> 01:40:09.159
was starting to face limitations they did
in never faced before, along with the

1629
01:40:09.239 --> 01:40:13.039
cumulative injuries leading to more pain pills, combined with his brain going wacko from

1630
01:40:13.079 --> 01:40:15.640
all the all the concussions, and
it's just like it was this whole mix

1631
01:40:15.680 --> 01:40:18.880
of all these things. And I
was glad that you saw that because so

1632
01:40:19.119 --> 01:40:24.479
many places I've seen right about Benoi
have have tried to narrow it down to

1633
01:40:24.520 --> 01:40:28.119
that that one smoking gun and ben
Wah, it wasn't well, yeah,

1634
01:40:28.159 --> 01:40:30.319
I know, that's exactly right.
I mean, I think it's for me

1635
01:40:30.039 --> 01:40:35.479
at the very core. It's like, is you're as opposed to some of

1636
01:40:35.520 --> 01:40:39.399
the other deaths. Maybe you're because
you know, a cocaine overdose is like

1637
01:40:39.520 --> 01:40:42.159
sort of tangible, you know whatever. But like with ben Wa, the

1638
01:40:42.199 --> 01:40:45.920
tragedy was so great that as as
someone who loved him, I mean as

1639
01:40:45.920 --> 01:40:48.840
a fan, but like truly loved
him so deeply, you feel helpless.

1640
01:40:48.880 --> 01:40:54.199
And I think that what that that
that acknowledging that that you don't have the

1641
01:40:54.239 --> 01:40:59.520
answer sort of like validates the helplessness. But but it also like gets to

1642
01:40:59.520 --> 01:41:02.399
the most the only significant truth there
is, which is that there's there was

1643
01:41:02.479 --> 01:41:05.640
nothing. I mean that we don't
know, we will just never know.

1644
01:41:06.279 --> 01:41:11.760
And the most significant truth is the
tragedy itself. Right, It doesn't matter

1645
01:41:11.880 --> 01:41:15.199
why he what happened to him.
It matters that he did the most evil

1646
01:41:15.239 --> 01:41:19.720
thing he could have done, and
that Nancy and Daniel are dead. Yeah,

1647
01:41:19.760 --> 01:41:23.880
exactly. And there is accountability.
And that's kind of what I got

1648
01:41:23.880 --> 01:41:26.159
to earlier when we talked about,
you know, WWB are doing the right

1649
01:41:26.199 --> 01:41:29.119
thing. Now there's accountability in the
sense that when Ben Wack came back from

1650
01:41:29.199 --> 01:41:30.960
next surgery, and I've told the
story a million times and written about it,

1651
01:41:31.079 --> 01:41:33.600
a top ww executive I was on
the phone and said, you got

1652
01:41:33.600 --> 01:41:36.039
to get Ben what to stop doing
the top rope Headbut Harley Racist said it

1653
01:41:36.039 --> 01:41:39.439
destroyed us neck. You just got
back from next surgery. We have a

1654
01:41:39.439 --> 01:41:42.319
painful epidemic in wrestling. You're asking
for trouble. And the guy said to

1655
01:41:42.359 --> 01:41:44.319
me, what are we supposed to
do? Find him? And I was

1656
01:41:44.359 --> 01:41:45.720
like, yes, you are his
boss. You can tell him don't do

1657
01:41:45.760 --> 01:41:48.760
it. And they didn't, and
it buzzed me now that Daniel Bryan's doing

1658
01:41:48.800 --> 01:41:54.640
the top rope head butt, a
guy who's most embodies Chris Benwall before everything

1659
01:41:54.720 --> 01:41:58.279
happened in terms of the fan appeal
and the undersized underdog, and he's out

1660
01:41:58.319 --> 01:42:00.520
there doing ben Wah moves that can
destroy his neck that of course he doesn't

1661
01:42:00.520 --> 01:42:02.760
care about. He doesn't think will
happen to him, because that's what everybody

1662
01:42:02.760 --> 01:42:06.079
says until they turn thirty eight or
forty. Yeah, I know every things

1663
01:42:06.079 --> 01:42:09.640
that they're invincible. I mean,
at least Daniel Brian's not walking around with

1664
01:42:09.720 --> 01:42:12.520
just the silly physique. I mean, like I actually am. I'm not

1665
01:42:12.640 --> 01:42:15.479
like a you know, like a
steroid a steroid denihilist or anything like that.

1666
01:42:15.520 --> 01:42:19.199
Like I think that they're that they
are a serious problem and abuses definitely,

1667
01:42:19.239 --> 01:42:24.159
But it's really specifically in the small
guys like well, like like like

1668
01:42:24.279 --> 01:42:28.119
a dynamite kid, where you see
these guys that are walking around with with

1669
01:42:28.279 --> 01:42:31.640
muscles their bodies literally can't support and
that ends up just being crippling, you

1670
01:42:31.680 --> 01:42:35.520
know, and and and you know, paintals are are obviously like the only

1671
01:42:35.520 --> 01:42:39.960
functional solution for a lot of guys. So but I think you're totally right

1672
01:42:39.960 --> 01:42:43.199
about Brian. You know who knows. I mean, I don't know the

1673
01:42:43.239 --> 01:42:45.720
answer as to whether you know whether
he would say if you figured out a

1674
01:42:45.760 --> 01:42:48.840
safer way to do it, but
if he hasn't, I'm totally on board

1675
01:42:48.920 --> 01:42:51.840
with what you're saying. And even
this the symbolism of it. And it

1676
01:42:51.880 --> 01:42:57.439
was interesting you wrote about that and
said that because on page three twenty three

1677
01:42:57.439 --> 01:43:00.560
you're talking about how they're kind of
leaning in the bad Whan moves again to

1678
01:43:00.640 --> 01:43:02.960
kind of take away the ownership of
you know, Ben want owning the moves,

1679
01:43:02.960 --> 01:43:04.960
maybe the cross face or the I
don't know if you were yeah,

1680
01:43:04.960 --> 01:43:06.800
they didn't know. I mean I
feel like it was like in the span

1681
01:43:06.840 --> 01:43:11.239
of like two weeks that always like
Triple H did the cross face and and

1682
01:43:11.359 --> 01:43:14.520
Daniel Bryan was doing the off the
top rope, and it was just like

1683
01:43:15.279 --> 01:43:19.319
it just seemed like really really obvious
to me. But you know, I

1684
01:43:19.359 --> 01:43:21.880
write about it. I mean when
I it's it's a it's a really bizarre

1685
01:43:21.920 --> 01:43:27.640
thing and it's really hard, you
know, I mean people people will justifiably

1686
01:43:27.680 --> 01:43:30.840
give wwe a lot of crap for
the way they handle some stuff, and

1687
01:43:30.840 --> 01:43:35.079
and the the the kind of omerta
against mentioning ben WA's name is one that

1688
01:43:35.119 --> 01:43:39.600
gets a lot of attention. Now, you know, I don't know that

1689
01:43:39.640 --> 01:43:42.520
there is like a like a better
way to do that. You know.

1690
01:43:42.560 --> 01:43:45.800
It's like when they you know,
they'll take they'll they'll people will be mad,

1691
01:43:45.000 --> 01:43:46.920
you know, no matter how they
treat a lot of these things.

1692
01:43:46.960 --> 01:43:53.920
But but it's just a really bizarre
it's a really bizarre situation and it's it's

1693
01:43:54.359 --> 01:43:57.159
you know, like we said,
the most important part is is you know,

1694
01:43:57.560 --> 01:44:01.640
the people who died and and and
trying to find a way to make

1695
01:44:01.680 --> 01:44:04.920
sure that doesn't happen again. Yeah, David, thanks so much for your

1696
01:44:04.920 --> 01:44:08.319
time. Yeah, I'm glad to
be getting in on a happy note.

1697
01:44:08.319 --> 01:44:11.880
That was again, Yeah exactly.
Yeah. I could go on for a

1698
01:44:11.920 --> 01:44:15.159
long time with you and talk more
about your book. Maybe we can have

1699
01:44:15.199 --> 01:44:17.159
again, you know, down the
line and pitch the book again and talk

1700
01:44:17.199 --> 01:44:20.239
about more stuff that we didn't get
into because you wrote about a lot and

1701
01:44:20.359 --> 01:44:24.000
uh, and maybe I'll read the
whole book and email you and go we

1702
01:44:24.000 --> 01:44:25.880
got to get you on again.
So if that were the man who,

1703
01:44:25.920 --> 01:44:28.319
maybe we'll throw that invite out there
and see who can match up our schedules

1704
01:44:28.319 --> 01:44:30.319
again. All right, man,
I will talk to you soon. Thank

1705
01:44:30.319 --> 01:44:31.000
you so much having me on,
and I would love to come back.

1706
01:44:31.159 --> 01:44:34.880
Absolutely great to hear. Thanks David. David Humaker from Grantland dot com,

1707
01:44:34.920 --> 01:44:40.319
author of The Squared Circle, which
was debut. You still there, Yeah,

1708
01:44:40.399 --> 01:44:43.840
yeah, I did a newsletter.
I'll end on this little personal note.

1709
01:44:44.119 --> 01:44:46.159
I did a newsletter that I hand
wrote, this before I owned a

1710
01:44:46.159 --> 01:44:51.199
typewriter, and I preceded the Torch
by just a few months, and I

1711
01:44:51.279 --> 01:44:56.319
hand wrote like recaps of TV shows
and wrote, you know, wrote end

1712
01:44:56.319 --> 01:44:58.840
results and did my own rankings,
and I don't know, I probably did

1713
01:44:58.840 --> 01:45:01.439
four or five issues and it was
called The Squared Circle. That's crazy,

1714
01:45:02.359 --> 01:45:05.439
and I mean I think the most
people who ever saw one was twelve.

1715
01:45:06.439 --> 01:45:09.199
And then I you know, switched
names and moved, you know, and

1716
01:45:09.640 --> 01:45:12.800
actually got a typewriter in nineteen eighty
seven and went went, you know,

1717
01:45:12.840 --> 01:45:15.479
went got all modern. But yeah, it was just kind of funny when

1718
01:45:15.479 --> 01:45:16.920
I saw the title again. It's
hardly the first time that term has been

1719
01:45:16.960 --> 01:45:19.159
used in any way, and I
think There's been other newsletters called the Square

1720
01:45:19.199 --> 01:45:21.960
Circle and radio shows called the Square
Circle, but I just I thought that

1721
01:45:23.079 --> 01:45:25.520
was kind of a fun trivia.
Know that way. Keller's first newsletter is

1722
01:45:25.560 --> 01:45:28.560
the title of group book. Well
good, The Squared Circle has come full

1723
01:45:28.560 --> 01:45:30.960
circle then, then Exactly Life Steff
and Professional Wrestling on Amazon, on Barnes

1724
01:45:30.960 --> 01:45:34.279
and Noble. Check it out,
Google it and read David's work on grant

1725
01:45:34.319 --> 01:45:39.439
Land and you're monitor on Twitter once
again? Is that aka the Mask Man?

1726
01:45:39.840 --> 01:45:42.800
Excellent? Thanks David, We'll talk
to you soon, all right,

1727
01:45:42.840 --> 01:45:45.960
Thanks man, excellent. Thanks for
IP members for joining us. As always,

1728
01:45:45.119 --> 01:45:48.000
your individual paid membership is what makes
it possible for us to do what

1729
01:45:48.000 --> 01:45:51.279
we do here at the Torch.
Hope you enjoyed that and if you got

1730
01:45:51.279 --> 01:45:54.880
any comments, as always, you
can email me at Kellerwade at gmail dot

1731
01:45:54.920 --> 01:46:00.520
com or comments on Twitter or of
course in the VIP form. Wadekeller thanking

1732
01:46:00.560 --> 01:46:21.920
you again and signing off. Invite
you to email the show with feedback or

1733
01:46:23.000 --> 01:46:28.680
questions or comments. That email address
is Wade Keller Podcast at petwtorch dot com.

1734
01:46:28.680 --> 01:46:31.800
That's Wadekeller Podcast at PW torch dot
com. Also welcome your feedback on

1735
01:46:31.840 --> 01:46:36.079
Twitter. You can follow us on
Twitter at pw Torch and follow me at

1736
01:46:36.159 --> 01:46:43.920
the Wade Keller. That's at PW
Torch and at the Wade Keller. Searching

1737
01:46:43.960 --> 01:46:46.680
for more great pro wrestling talk,
then join me Jason Powell, host of

1738
01:46:46.760 --> 01:46:51.079
the three weekly Pro Wrestling Boom Podcast. Each week you'll hear the latest news

1739
01:46:51.079 --> 01:46:55.359
and analysis from me and my team
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1740
01:46:55.399 --> 01:46:59.720
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1741
01:46:59.760 --> 01:47:03.199
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1742
01:47:03.359 --> 01:47:08.279
Downcast, and all your favorite secondary
apps, or visit us directly at

1743
01:47:08.279 --> 01:47:14.680
PW boom dot com. Once again, that's PW boom dot com. Thanks

1744
01:47:14.680 --> 01:47:16.439
for listening to our podcast. Did
you know we also have a website,

1745
01:47:16.520 --> 01:47:21.560
pwtorch dot com. Daily news updates, editorials, and my live TV coverage

1746
01:47:21.600 --> 01:47:27.680
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1747
01:47:27.680 --> 01:47:30.279
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1749
01:47:33.720 --> 01:47:40.760
That's PW torch dot com. Meet
an extra dose of positivity in your wrestling

1750
01:47:40.800 --> 01:47:45.159
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1751
01:47:45.359 --> 01:47:49.920
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1752
01:47:49.920 --> 01:47:55.520
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1753
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1756
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1757
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1762
01:48:39.680 --> 01:48:44.239
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1767
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1771
01:49:13.600 --> 01:49:19.560
in the comments section. Thank you
so much. In twenty twelve, NXT

1772
01:49:19.720 --> 01:49:25.760
transitioned into the developmental system and ultimately
the brand you see today. On the

1773
01:49:25.800 --> 01:49:30.359
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1774
01:49:30.359 --> 01:49:35.479
this page in NXT's early history.
Join Kelly Wells and me Tom Stout from

1775
01:49:35.520 --> 01:49:40.960
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1776
01:49:41.039 --> 01:49:45.800
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1777
01:49:45.880 --> 01:49:49.880
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1782
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1784
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1786
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1789
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diving into our library pw torch dot
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and I get flavor and nutritional quality
that I look for to give me

1804
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the energy to keep doing what I
do. It is cold and flu season,

1805
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and I thought over time that when
I've been eating while I recover quicker

1806
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from cold and flu symptoms, and
during this time of year. You want

1807
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to be able to get out and
do things without feeling like you're going to

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be sick for two weeks afterwards.
The clean eating and nutrient density and factory

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meals makes me more confident that I'm
going to fight back against all the germs

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that are out there circulating during this
time of year. Factor provides over thirty

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five weekly flavor packed, fresh,
never frozen meals that does support a healthy

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lifestyle and will meet your meal preferences
with their variety, all delivered right to

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your door and ready to pull out
of the refrigerator and heat up and eat

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in two minutes. You don't have
to wait forty five minutes for delivery,

1815
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worry if the food's going to be
cold, worry about how much to tip,

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and mess around with the delivery app. Every week, you get a

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box of meals and they're in your
fridge, ready to go. They also

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have an assortment of forty five plus
add ons to suit various preferences and tastes,

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including breakfast items like apple cinnamon pancakes
and smoothies. With Factor, you

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can rest assured you're making a sustainable
choice too. They offset one hundred percent

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of their delivery emissions and source one
hundred percent renewable electricity at their production and

1822
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site offices. So this November,
get Factor and enjoy eating well without the

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hassle. Simply choose your meals and
enjoy fresh, flavor packed meals delivered to

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your door, ready in just two
minutes, no prep, no mess.

1825
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