WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.520 --> 00:00:05.679 Hudson River Radio dot com. It beats listening to nothing, my godness, 2 00:00:07.919 --> 00:00:15.000 being Franklin Frank, where the only way to be is Frank. Hello everyone, 3 00:00:15.160 --> 00:00:19.600 and welcome to being Frank. We're the only way to be is Frank. 4 00:00:19.800 --> 00:00:22.640 I'm your host, Frank Lavarna, and I'd like to thank you for 5 00:00:22.800 --> 00:00:27.320 joining us on what we like to call the Intelligent Conversation podcast, where no 6 00:00:27.480 --> 00:00:31.920 conversation is out of bounds at all points of view are welcome. We are 7 00:00:32.119 --> 00:00:37.359 going live to tape recording to tape on the eleventh of July twenty twenty four. 8 00:00:38.679 --> 00:00:44.119 Universally panned as poor or even far worse, President Joe Biden's recent debate 9 00:00:44.240 --> 00:00:50.560 performance versus Donald Trump continues to reverberate weeks after their appearance on CNN. It's 10 00:00:50.640 --> 00:00:55.679 not hyperbole to call it a seminal moment in this year's critical election campaign for 11 00:00:55.840 --> 00:01:00.840 both parties, with many prominent Democrats calling for mister to step aside for a 12 00:01:00.960 --> 00:01:07.359 younger, more viable candidate. But is this going too far? Should Americans 13 00:01:07.400 --> 00:01:11.799 place this much importance on a single event like a debate? Are they that 14 00:01:11.079 --> 00:01:15.519 crucial in a bigger picture? Should they be? There? Are practical questions 15 00:01:15.560 --> 00:01:21.040 too, like what's debate well run? What role should moderators play? And 16 00:01:21.159 --> 00:01:25.560 did CNN's do a good job staging the debate? And, perhaps particularly in 17 00:01:25.599 --> 00:01:30.040 the light of the New York Times recent very controversial editorial urging mister Biden to 18 00:01:30.120 --> 00:01:36.239 drop out, what role should the media play in elections? As always, 19 00:01:36.319 --> 00:01:40.040 let's get into some intelligent conversation to attempt to sort it out. All with 20 00:01:40.200 --> 00:01:44.280 my guest, I call him a renaissance man because he's a teacher, musician, 21 00:01:44.480 --> 00:01:48.599 author, acknowledged expert in the art of debating. He is also the 22 00:01:48.719 --> 00:01:52.599 author of the best selling book It's Real Life and Alternate History of the Beatles. 23 00:01:53.000 --> 00:01:57.159 He is also a full professor at Fordham University School of Mass Communication and 24 00:01:57.239 --> 00:02:01.439 Media. My colleague, friend and freak would contribute to being frank doctor Paul 25 00:02:01.519 --> 00:02:06.719 Levinson. Paul, thank you once again for joining us. We always appreciate 26 00:02:06.799 --> 00:02:09.879 you here and your point of view. Always thank you. It's a delight 27 00:02:10.039 --> 00:02:15.759 to be here. And the real reason you call me a renaissance man is 28 00:02:15.840 --> 00:02:21.319 I was born in the year fifteen forty three. Somehow I live that long. 29 00:02:21.439 --> 00:02:24.919 I don't know. Story for another day and hear my sense a podcast 30 00:02:25.120 --> 00:02:30.039 in that somewhere, Paul. But there is a lot to unpack, and 31 00:02:30.120 --> 00:02:35.400 I want to start and use your expertise as an acknowledged expert in the debate, 32 00:02:35.479 --> 00:02:38.319 of the art of debating, the historical support, importance of it, 33 00:02:38.400 --> 00:02:44.400 et cetera. So let's get into the history of debates, particularly in the 34 00:02:44.520 --> 00:02:49.319 United States. When did they begin? Were they popular from the beginning, 35 00:02:49.400 --> 00:02:53.280 were they important from the beginning? Give us a little context of what we're 36 00:02:53.680 --> 00:02:59.199 dealing with when we hear the word presidential debate, Well, Abraham Lincoln had 37 00:02:59.240 --> 00:03:02.199 a debate when he was running for the Senate. I don't know how many 38 00:03:02.319 --> 00:03:10.680 people actually heard it, because of course those days were years before television and 39 00:03:10.800 --> 00:03:15.560 even radio. But people did read the text of the debate. But in 40 00:03:15.719 --> 00:03:23.560 terms of modern debates in the United States, they become major news and crucially 41 00:03:23.639 --> 00:03:30.919 important in the election of nineteen sixty and the famous or infamous depending about how 42 00:03:30.960 --> 00:03:36.919 you look at it, debate between JFK and Richard Nixon. And it was 43 00:03:37.039 --> 00:03:42.599 Marshall mcglewin who jumped on this when I'm about to tell you and everybody, 44 00:03:42.719 --> 00:03:49.960 and it became one of the keynotes of his book Understanding Media, which was 45 00:03:50.080 --> 00:03:55.520 basically an exploration of how media, behind the scenes, we don't take them 46 00:03:55.599 --> 00:04:02.319 all that seriously, very often have profound political events. They make things happen 47 00:04:02.879 --> 00:04:11.840 that wouldn't have happened because of those political consequences. So in this debate between 48 00:04:12.240 --> 00:04:19.480 JFK and Richard Nixon, a very interesting thing happened. A majority of people 49 00:04:20.079 --> 00:04:28.399 who saw the debate on television thought that JFK won, and this was largely 50 00:04:28.519 --> 00:04:32.279 because, let's face a JFK was a better looking guy than Nixon, and 51 00:04:32.439 --> 00:04:40.360 some young the appeared dynamic. That's right, I remember it in my head. 52 00:04:40.439 --> 00:04:43.600 Yes, yeah, he was absolutely fabulous. He looked great, he 53 00:04:43.759 --> 00:04:48.199 sounded great. Nixon looked sweaty, nervous. I don't know whether this part 54 00:04:48.240 --> 00:04:54.279 of this is true, but it's said that Nixon refused makeup, which anyone 55 00:04:54.279 --> 00:04:58.519 who knows anything about television, especially in the early days of television, you 56 00:04:58.720 --> 00:05:02.759 better put on all the make up you possibly can because these bright lights are 57 00:05:02.839 --> 00:05:11.240 shining bouncing right off your face. And Nixon allegedly said to the makeup people, 58 00:05:11.600 --> 00:05:14.079 no, no, I don't want any makeup. I don't want to 59 00:05:14.120 --> 00:05:18.000 look like a pansy. So he let his homophobia get in the way of 60 00:05:18.160 --> 00:05:26.079 good practice for television. But the other shoe here is the majority of people 61 00:05:26.160 --> 00:05:31.319 who heard the debate on radio the same exact debate thought Nixon prevailed and did 62 00:05:31.439 --> 00:05:39.319 better. Unfortunately for Richard M. Nixon. By nineteen sixty, more than 63 00:05:39.480 --> 00:05:46.000 ninety percent of Americans who experienced the debate saw it on television. And it 64 00:05:46.079 --> 00:05:50.480 was a very close election, and so many political scientists and media theorists, 65 00:05:50.519 --> 00:05:57.000 including me, would agree that were not for television and were it not for 66 00:05:57.160 --> 00:06:00.639 that debate, and again it was a very close election, JFK would have 67 00:06:00.920 --> 00:06:05.040 lost the election. Some people think he lost the election anywhere. I have 68 00:06:05.199 --> 00:06:11.120 to add, you know the joke about Chicago, the then mayor Dally, 69 00:06:11.199 --> 00:06:14.959 There are a couple of generations of Delhi. He put in some election reform 70 00:06:15.439 --> 00:06:20.319 after the nineteen sixty election in Chicago. After the reform, a dead person 71 00:06:20.439 --> 00:06:26.920 could only vote once in Chicago prior to that the joke, but it's probably 72 00:06:27.079 --> 00:06:30.560 true dead people they stuffed in as many ballots as possible from the same dead 73 00:06:30.639 --> 00:06:35.639 person, So who knows, it's possible. JFK lost Illinois anyway, But 74 00:06:36.439 --> 00:06:43.279 as of that debate, they became crucially important. They were held every four 75 00:06:43.399 --> 00:06:46.839 years, and you know, I can go over some of the highlights jumping 76 00:06:47.000 --> 00:06:55.240 ahead to the Mondale Reagan debate in nineteen eighty four, where Reagan, and 77 00:06:55.399 --> 00:07:00.480 this is obviously an issue that's come up now, was being criticized. Maybe 78 00:07:00.519 --> 00:07:04.680 he's too old for another term of president, maybe he's a little adult, 79 00:07:05.160 --> 00:07:12.560 maybe he's losing it. And Reagan's advisors came up with a brilliant line in 80 00:07:12.680 --> 00:07:16.120 which Reagan says to Walter Mondel, I just want to make an announcement. 81 00:07:17.240 --> 00:07:23.839 You know, I'm not going to hold the age of my opponent against him 82 00:07:24.319 --> 00:07:29.000 in this debate, even though he's such a young man. And that was 83 00:07:29.040 --> 00:07:33.439 such a good funny line that Mondelle himself couldn't help it, you know, 84 00:07:33.839 --> 00:07:38.920 burst out laughing. Again. Was that decisive? Is that why Reagan won? 85 00:07:39.439 --> 00:07:43.759 Who knows, but it certainly helped. There's another great example, though, 86 00:07:44.360 --> 00:07:49.319 Lloyd Benson versus Dan Quail, in which I always love the vice presidential 87 00:07:49.680 --> 00:07:57.519 vices. Yeah, and people have Quaile liked to compare himself to JFK. 88 00:07:58.360 --> 00:08:01.959 And people said to quit, Look, don't do that. You know. 89 00:08:01.120 --> 00:08:07.959 JFK has a very special role in the American consciousness. Basically, say whatever 90 00:08:07.000 --> 00:08:11.560 you want, but you're not JFK. But Will was so taken up with 91 00:08:11.680 --> 00:08:16.439 it when he was talking during the debate. He started talking about, hey, 92 00:08:16.560 --> 00:08:18.839 you know, much like JFK I did, blah blah blah. And 93 00:08:18.959 --> 00:08:24.319 then of course the camera turns to Benson and delivers when Lloyd Benson in the 94 00:08:24.360 --> 00:08:28.800 great lines, he says, I knew JFK. JFK was a friend of 95 00:08:28.879 --> 00:08:35.879 mine. You, mister quayll know JFK. Can if I might jump in, 96 00:08:35.960 --> 00:08:39.799 Paul, because yeah, well it is a line, I mean, 97 00:08:39.200 --> 00:08:43.240 a punchline, for lack of a better word, or a crucial. Can 98 00:08:43.360 --> 00:08:48.559 that be that crucial where a single line can turn that much public opinion? 99 00:08:50.919 --> 00:08:52.759 I don't know. It's a complicated thing. And of course, the Republicans 100 00:08:52.879 --> 00:08:58.600 lost that year that was not you know, nineteen ninety two, and you 101 00:08:58.679 --> 00:09:03.000 know, George hw Bush lost to Bill Clinton. So even though Benson got 102 00:09:03.080 --> 00:09:07.759 in that great line for the Democrats, it didn't help the Democrats win. 103 00:09:09.840 --> 00:09:16.600 So look, I do think and as you know, I wrote a couple 104 00:09:16.639 --> 00:09:20.759 of pieces, did an episode of my own podcast in which I said, 105 00:09:20.879 --> 00:09:28.720 I think we need to look at the debate as not something if you think 106 00:09:28.799 --> 00:09:35.039 about it that really has anything to do with what a president does in office. 107 00:09:35.559 --> 00:09:39.399 So, you know the way I look at things, you know, 108 00:09:39.320 --> 00:09:46.360 word comes in that Putin has gone totally crazy and has invaded Poland. That 109 00:09:46.600 --> 00:09:50.320 is an incredible crisis. NATO's going to be involved. Poland is a NATO 110 00:09:50.480 --> 00:09:58.320 nation. Obviously, a meeting is convened immediately with now Joe Biden, you 111 00:09:58.360 --> 00:10:01.080 know, chairing the meeting and all his top advisors are there, etc. 112 00:10:01.399 --> 00:10:09.159 Etc. What does anything that will happen in that conversation have to do with 113 00:10:09.360 --> 00:10:15.360 someone not doing very well in a debate? A debate is a very special 114 00:10:15.559 --> 00:10:22.559 media environment, very unique environment, and yes it's fun and exciting to watch. 115 00:10:22.279 --> 00:10:31.799 But again getting back to JFK versus Nixon, the fact that Kennedy understood 116 00:10:31.919 --> 00:10:35.440 reaction shots and look good when the camera was focused on him when he wasn't 117 00:10:35.720 --> 00:10:39.799 talking, The fact that Nixon said, no, I don't want to put 118 00:10:39.840 --> 00:10:43.440 any makeup on. I don't want to look like a pansy. What did 119 00:10:43.600 --> 00:10:48.039 that have to do with how these people performed as president? So I think 120 00:10:48.120 --> 00:10:52.279 the answer is no. You know, debates are exciting, it gives people 121 00:10:52.360 --> 00:10:58.120 a lot to talk about. I always watch every debate. I'm very interested 122 00:10:58.200 --> 00:11:01.559 in to see how the candidates speak, But at the same time, you 123 00:11:01.679 --> 00:11:07.279 don't have to do much in depth analysis to realize one thing has very little 124 00:11:07.360 --> 00:11:11.879 to do with the other, the other being how it is and how will 125 00:11:13.039 --> 00:11:16.000 the person perform as president? Two points here, Paul, if I might 126 00:11:16.200 --> 00:11:20.600 first one, then what should people take from these debates? I mean, 127 00:11:20.840 --> 00:11:26.840 what should they be looking for otherwise? And obviously I watch them, You 128 00:11:26.960 --> 00:11:33.639 watch them people, They're enormously viewed, so they must have there must be 129 00:11:33.759 --> 00:11:37.960 something that we need to take away from these things when watching. What should 130 00:11:37.000 --> 00:11:43.279 people take from these debates? Well, I think the basic most important thing 131 00:11:43.879 --> 00:11:48.600 in debates is when the candidate is speaking, is he or she telling the 132 00:11:48.759 --> 00:11:56.960 truth? And one of the issues which has received precious little notice, especially 133 00:11:56.080 --> 00:12:00.960 in the New York Times, and we'll get to my list of questions, 134 00:12:01.000 --> 00:12:07.519 absolutely yeah, is you know Trump lied thirty times and some of his lies 135 00:12:07.960 --> 00:12:13.799 were obscene. I don't know whether the word to describe a blatant lie that 136 00:12:13.000 --> 00:12:20.559 says in some democratic states, not only is abortion okay and permitted throughout the 137 00:12:20.639 --> 00:12:24.600 complete pregnancy, but even after the baby is born, you can kill the 138 00:12:24.720 --> 00:12:31.159 baby. What kind of horrible monster would tell a lie like that, And 139 00:12:31.360 --> 00:12:35.120 so if that's the only lie that Trump told during the debate, that should 140 00:12:35.159 --> 00:12:39.840 be enough for any reasonable decent person to say, I would never vote for 141 00:12:39.919 --> 00:12:43.840 this monster in a million years. But in fact, he lied just about 142 00:12:43.879 --> 00:12:48.039 every time he opened his mouth, and I think that is a very important 143 00:12:48.120 --> 00:12:52.440 takeaway from any debate. Well, you know, in this leason, I 144 00:12:52.480 --> 00:12:58.519 have so many questions they all lead into another and two. Okay, my 145 00:12:58.960 --> 00:13:01.799 issue then with that, and it's no secret, and I try to remain 146 00:13:01.799 --> 00:13:05.159 as neutral as I can, but people read my social media posts and my 147 00:13:05.279 --> 00:13:09.600 blog, etc. In my opinion, if Trump's mouth is moving, his 148 00:13:09.720 --> 00:13:16.080 lips are moving, he's lying. Okay, that's been established, Okay, 149 00:13:16.200 --> 00:13:20.919 and we know his baseball feed off of that. Anyway, my issue became 150 00:13:20.039 --> 00:13:24.840 at this point, and it's part of the questions in terms of one of 151 00:13:24.879 --> 00:13:31.279 my questions in terms of rating each performance. And I was yelling at the 152 00:13:31.360 --> 00:13:37.440 TV at opportunities for Joe Biden to attack those laws, and he seemed to 153 00:13:37.600 --> 00:13:43.200 have missed that opportunity, which led to debt people doubting. In other words, 154 00:13:43.240 --> 00:13:46.519 I'm sitting at home, I'm not the president, and if I'm sharp 155 00:13:46.639 --> 00:13:50.320 enough. Let me give you a specific example, as you mentioned about the 156 00:13:50.399 --> 00:13:56.000 abortions to me, when Trump started talking about how black people, African Americans 157 00:13:56.120 --> 00:14:03.639 love him, etc. I'm screaming at the TV Central Park five. Joe 158 00:14:03.960 --> 00:14:09.120 mentioned the Central Park five and nothing, not a word. That's what ultimately 159 00:14:09.279 --> 00:14:13.399 concerned me is, yes, I'm seeing the lies. And again you saw 160 00:14:13.519 --> 00:14:18.559 the lies because we're the choir, if you will. But I'm concerned about 161 00:14:18.600 --> 00:14:24.279 the people who didn't miss that, and who missed that because Biden missed the 162 00:14:24.320 --> 00:14:28.240 opportunity to hammer that home. Your thoughts on that, well, I agree 163 00:14:28.279 --> 00:14:33.840 with what you just said one hundred percent. And that's why there's I think 164 00:14:35.000 --> 00:14:41.240 no one on this planet who said Joe Biden had a good night and you 165 00:14:41.320 --> 00:14:43.840 know, contributed to a good debate. Joe Biden had a horrible night. 166 00:14:45.279 --> 00:14:50.879 It was embarrassing, it was frightening because he's president of the United States and 167 00:14:50.759 --> 00:14:58.960 people were and are right to be concerned about that. And so I was 168 00:14:58.000 --> 00:15:01.720 spearing at the televi vision also, and so is my wife. You know, 169 00:15:03.519 --> 00:15:07.440 why don't you speak up? He did a few times. I don't 170 00:15:07.480 --> 00:15:11.320 know what the problem was, but if we're talking though, about Biden. 171 00:15:11.879 --> 00:15:18.480 That was how he was during the debate, although he certainly wasn't perfect, 172 00:15:18.919 --> 00:15:24.240 And although George Stephanopolis did something I think totally unprofessional just yesterday saying that he 173 00:15:24.360 --> 00:15:31.120 thought Biden should step aside, I thought in the Stephanopolis interview of Biden that 174 00:15:31.279 --> 00:15:35.919 Biden was pretty good. He wasn't as good as you or I. You 175 00:15:35.000 --> 00:15:41.240 know, we speak better than Biden. But look, this guy has had 176 00:15:41.240 --> 00:15:46.440 a stutter problem all his life. This guy has a world of problems on 177 00:15:46.679 --> 00:15:52.360 his head. The war's still going on in Ukraine, the Israeli Palestinian conflict 178 00:15:52.519 --> 00:15:58.200 that's still continuing, largely unobated, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. 179 00:16:00.039 --> 00:16:03.600 I take as a given that he doesn't speak too well. Frankly, 180 00:16:04.360 --> 00:16:10.399 in my opinion, I haven't been exactly following his career, but he wasn't 181 00:16:10.480 --> 00:16:15.240 that great ever speaker. That wasn't you know? He was no Clarence Darrow, 182 00:16:15.759 --> 00:16:19.159 now that I ever heard Clarence Darrow person. But you know, there's 183 00:16:19.200 --> 00:16:25.919 a Yiddish word for that. He's someone who fumfers around. The American spelling, 184 00:16:26.000 --> 00:16:30.360 well, the English language bung of fumfer is probably pH u m fe 185 00:16:30.759 --> 00:16:34.919 r. So anyone who knows a little Yiddish will know what I'm talking about. 186 00:16:36.279 --> 00:16:38.600 But you know what, Biden is not the first president who fumfored around. 187 00:16:38.919 --> 00:16:44.600 Dwight Eisenhower didn't speak very well. If you see some press conferences, 188 00:16:44.639 --> 00:16:48.399 he can barely sometimes get words out of his mouth, and nobody said anything. 189 00:16:49.440 --> 00:16:55.960 Franklin Dolano Roosevelt spoke beautifully, but nobody knew he was in a wheelchair 190 00:16:56.600 --> 00:17:02.440 because he wanted to project an image of strength. So Biden, I would 191 00:17:02.480 --> 00:17:07.400 say, had a horrible night. It was the worst I have ever heard 192 00:17:07.519 --> 00:17:14.480 him talk. I was very concerned, but I was also very heartened by 193 00:17:14.519 --> 00:17:17.960 the fact that later that evening he was in better shape, just you know, 194 00:17:18.160 --> 00:17:22.799 talking to people and I don't know, some kind of cafe. And 195 00:17:22.880 --> 00:17:26.039 then the next day he did a rally in North Carolina. He was pretty 196 00:17:26.119 --> 00:17:30.680 sharp. And I've heard him now talk six seven times and he's again he's 197 00:17:30.799 --> 00:17:34.680 Biden never speaks that clearly, you know, fumbles on a word here or 198 00:17:34.759 --> 00:17:41.640 there, but he seems totally cogent to me. And so again, I 199 00:17:41.799 --> 00:17:45.599 know you wanted to get to this anyway, But to jump ahead, I 200 00:17:45.839 --> 00:17:49.640 understand everyone who was concerned. After the debate, I was concerned too. 201 00:17:51.200 --> 00:17:55.559 I didn't just I didn't even like his expression when he wasn't talking. Yes, 202 00:17:55.640 --> 00:17:57.160 you know, he looked like he wasn't completely there. I don't know 203 00:17:57.319 --> 00:18:03.200 what was but again I'm not a psychologist. You're not a psychologist. But 204 00:18:03.240 --> 00:18:06.640 I think it's pretty clear of God for the bid. Someone has suffering from 205 00:18:06.759 --> 00:18:11.000 dementia, and that's what we were seeing. There's no way at the debate, 206 00:18:11.359 --> 00:18:17.400 there's no way he would have been so clear in things that took place, 207 00:18:17.960 --> 00:18:22.039 public events, literally the night of the day after the event, et 208 00:18:22.440 --> 00:18:26.200 etc. And including in the Stephanopolis interview on ABC. I don't think Biden 209 00:18:26.319 --> 00:18:30.559 was great because again he's not a great speaker. Yes, he missed a 210 00:18:30.640 --> 00:18:36.279 couple of words, but he got his points for cross And if you want 211 00:18:36.359 --> 00:18:41.759 my opinion, I think George Stephanopolis ows not only OHS Biden and the American 212 00:18:41.799 --> 00:18:45.960 people in apology. I would call upon him right now to resign. He 213 00:18:47.160 --> 00:18:51.680 didn't do his job. He should have kept his opinion to himself. No 214 00:18:51.799 --> 00:18:57.920 one asked him. That was highly outrageously unprofessional of him to say that perfect 215 00:18:57.960 --> 00:19:00.920 segue. I love when that works like that. Well, perfect segue, 216 00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:04.599 because I wanted to ask a little bit too about the role that in a 217 00:19:04.640 --> 00:19:08.599 broader sense we'll get to that the media places should play, but in specific 218 00:19:08.720 --> 00:19:15.400 I heard criticisms of the moderators at the debate also Jake Tapper and Dana Bash, 219 00:19:15.640 --> 00:19:21.480 well respected journalists from CNN overall, and many people put out and I 220 00:19:21.519 --> 00:19:26.759 didn't necessarily agree with that, why didn't they call out Trump more on his 221 00:19:27.079 --> 00:19:33.000 lies? But is that their role? Or should they be setting up the 222 00:19:33.640 --> 00:19:38.599 other candidate to be able to respond to those lies, which in my mind 223 00:19:40.319 --> 00:19:42.640 seems like more of their role. But you're much more of an expert on 224 00:19:42.799 --> 00:19:48.839 it than I am. What role should the moderators play and should they have 225 00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:53.000 had a stronger hand in controlling some of the obvious lining that former President Trump 226 00:19:53.160 --> 00:20:02.519 was doing well. First of all, my understanding is that the two moderators, 227 00:20:02.880 --> 00:20:10.119 Bash and Tapper were basically following the rules that the Democrats and Republicans had 228 00:20:10.240 --> 00:20:15.880 hashed out prior to the debate. Those rules included shutting off the microphone of 229 00:20:15.920 --> 00:20:19.960 the person wasn't talking so we didn't have to hear Trump braying when Biden was 230 00:20:21.039 --> 00:20:25.559 making a point. They included not having an audience, a live audience. 231 00:20:25.920 --> 00:20:32.279 I think they also included the moderators not interrupting when the candidate was making a 232 00:20:32.359 --> 00:20:37.119 point by saying that's not true. They did have the option of saying something 233 00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:44.079 after the candidate finished, and I would have preferred seeing them the two moderators 234 00:20:44.240 --> 00:20:51.559 more aggressively pointing out Trump's lies. But I think we have to be honest. 235 00:20:52.119 --> 00:20:56.519 The problem was Joe Biden had a very bad night, and that's really 236 00:20:57.200 --> 00:21:03.680 what the source of concern is. Even if the moderators had called out all 237 00:21:03.759 --> 00:21:07.960 the lies, I don't think Biden would have been any better, maybe slightly 238 00:21:08.079 --> 00:21:11.240 better, because then people would be thinking, well, he doesn't need to 239 00:21:11.400 --> 00:21:18.279 make these points. But I think we would expect a presidential candidate to basically 240 00:21:18.880 --> 00:21:23.480 after Trump starts with his lies and they ask like another question, even if 241 00:21:23.519 --> 00:21:29.160 it's not a response. The first thing Joe Biden should have said is you, 242 00:21:29.400 --> 00:21:33.480 sir, are lying again. I've lost count of the number of lies 243 00:21:33.759 --> 00:21:37.920 were are you now on Lie eighteen? Are you incapable of telling the truth. 244 00:21:37.359 --> 00:21:42.200 That's what we wanted to hear Biden say, and so again he had 245 00:21:42.240 --> 00:21:47.839 a bad night. I'm not a doctor. I don't know what caused it 246 00:21:48.519 --> 00:21:55.680 in the absence of any other explanation for that bad night, combined with the 247 00:21:55.759 --> 00:22:00.640 fact that he was much better very shortly after and has been much better since 248 00:22:00.759 --> 00:22:07.200 then. Look, you know, years ago, when I was a student 249 00:22:07.279 --> 00:22:12.079 at the New School for Social Research in Manhattan, I had a professor who 250 00:22:12.640 --> 00:22:15.759 you know, liked to talk like you and me. But every once in 251 00:22:15.799 --> 00:22:19.279 a while he would come into the class and he'd be like thirty people in 252 00:22:19.319 --> 00:22:22.240 the class who are like, look at us, turn us back on us, 253 00:22:22.319 --> 00:22:26.279 and then like write things on the blackboard for about a good five to 254 00:22:26.359 --> 00:22:33.119 ten minutes. And at some point I realized the reason why he picked these 255 00:22:33.200 --> 00:22:37.640 times to write on the blackboard was he was either out of breath because I 256 00:22:37.640 --> 00:22:41.160 don't know, if you know, the New School for Social Research, most 257 00:22:41.279 --> 00:22:45.039 many of the classes held in a twelve story building. All too often the 258 00:22:45.119 --> 00:22:49.200 elevator isn't you know, running, so as a student that would have to 259 00:22:49.279 --> 00:22:53.559 run up the stairs not to be too late. And I was out of 260 00:22:53.640 --> 00:22:57.160 breath and couldn't even talk. And I was god knows how many years younger 261 00:22:57.240 --> 00:23:03.319 then. So what I'm saying saying is public speakers, like everyone else, 262 00:23:03.599 --> 00:23:07.720 have good nights and bad nights. Biden had an atrocious night, There's no 263 00:23:07.960 --> 00:23:12.000 doubt about it. He made a few points, but everyone who saw the 264 00:23:12.119 --> 00:23:18.720 debate was shocked and upset. And I didn't know what was going to happen 265 00:23:18.799 --> 00:23:21.799 afterwards, And you know, I had an open mind. I was expecting 266 00:23:21.880 --> 00:23:23.720 it could be the worst We're going to hear. God forbid, he had 267 00:23:23.759 --> 00:23:32.000 a stroke, I don't know. And therefore I was reassured when pretty much 268 00:23:32.119 --> 00:23:37.119 right after the debate we got the old Joe Biden back, still not completely 269 00:23:37.359 --> 00:23:42.079 coherent, because Biden has never been so coherent, and yeah, maybe he's 270 00:23:42.079 --> 00:23:45.319 getting a little worse with age, but you know, still pretty much on 271 00:23:45.559 --> 00:23:51.480 point, you know, making his comments and remarks, you know, emphasizing 272 00:23:51.599 --> 00:23:55.480 important things, you know, saying I'm not joking, you know, something 273 00:23:55.559 --> 00:24:03.079 like that, or all the Biden idioms by you know, Paul again, 274 00:24:03.559 --> 00:24:07.200 a perfect segue into the New York Times. And I want to start again 275 00:24:07.640 --> 00:24:17.759 more broadly and then be more specific. And you mentioned criticism and rightful criticism, 276 00:24:17.920 --> 00:24:21.839 and we know, I know you can't. You cannot deny how poor 277 00:24:22.000 --> 00:24:27.359 performance it was. And so it's okay to criticize the president's a sitting president. 278 00:24:27.839 --> 00:24:30.759 It's what we do, certainly one of the things that I do as 279 00:24:30.759 --> 00:24:36.200 a journalist, and I took some heat form my criticism, and I did 280 00:24:36.279 --> 00:24:41.440 put it out there early, okay, But at one point we'll answer this, 281 00:24:41.519 --> 00:24:45.799 I guess a woman order does it go too far? Because and I 282 00:24:45.880 --> 00:24:48.119 think people have to understand. The New York Times came out with an editorial 283 00:24:48.279 --> 00:24:52.039 Let's get right to it, okay, which, to simplify, basically said 284 00:24:52.079 --> 00:24:55.960 Joe, You've got to step down. It's time. You've done your thing. 285 00:24:56.079 --> 00:24:57.960 We thank you, but it's time for you to step down. Okay. 286 00:24:59.599 --> 00:25:03.319 There was outrage and including you thought it was somewhat outrageous to go that 287 00:25:03.559 --> 00:25:11.279 far. So what is the line there between legitimate criticism crossing a line where 288 00:25:11.400 --> 00:25:15.960 it can actually impact and change an election in an unfair way. And within 289 00:25:17.119 --> 00:25:21.240 that what role and newspaper? And I think people have to understand newspapers have 290 00:25:21.480 --> 00:25:26.640 editorial boards which are a little different from their everyday news operation, which is 291 00:25:26.720 --> 00:25:32.359 supposed to be non biased, and editorial is literally that it's the newspaper's opinion 292 00:25:32.799 --> 00:25:37.759 of people within the newspaper. And I think sometimes people don't differentiate between the 293 00:25:37.839 --> 00:25:41.400 two. But now that read a complicated set up. Within that, you 294 00:25:41.519 --> 00:25:48.720 have one of the great quote unquote liberal newspapers, extremely critical of a sitting 295 00:25:48.799 --> 00:25:52.680 president, a liberal progressive, if you will, sitting president. People go 296 00:25:52.880 --> 00:25:56.359 crazy? What was right about what they did? What was wrong about they 297 00:25:56.440 --> 00:26:00.000 did what they did? What is part of that tradition of what they were 298 00:26:00.039 --> 00:26:03.519 trying to accomplish there? And forgive me for the long with the question, 299 00:26:04.000 --> 00:26:07.440 but I know you'll sort it out. Well, that's what you're good at 300 00:26:07.480 --> 00:26:11.440 all. Thanks. That was a good question. And the word tradition is 301 00:26:11.599 --> 00:26:17.960 very important because I've been concerned about the New York Times for at least five, 302 00:26:18.119 --> 00:26:22.680 six, seven, eight years now, and I've just mentioned two things 303 00:26:22.799 --> 00:26:30.160 briefly. One is the election of twenty sixteen. You know where James Comy, 304 00:26:30.680 --> 00:26:34.039 the FBI director, then comes out, we're reopening the investigation into this 305 00:26:34.519 --> 00:26:45.400 nonsense about Hillary's emails being exposed to people who could find out state secrets or 306 00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:49.839 would have a load of nonsense, which Comy himself withdrew it a couple of 307 00:26:49.880 --> 00:26:55.880 weeks later. I think though, that was a decisive factor in Hillary Clinton 308 00:26:56.000 --> 00:27:00.440 losing the vote in the electoral College, and the New York Times jumped on 309 00:27:00.599 --> 00:27:04.160 this story and they gave it major headlines like a dog with a bone, 310 00:27:04.640 --> 00:27:08.720 and I was really surprised, and that wasn't the first time. But you 311 00:27:08.759 --> 00:27:11.319 know, I'm not going to go into a whole history, but I'll just 312 00:27:11.359 --> 00:27:15.319 give you one other example. I think you and I maybe even talked about 313 00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:21.680 it on an earlier episode of Being Frank. In the early days of the 314 00:27:21.960 --> 00:27:30.480 Israeli retaliation against Hamas in Gaza, there was a missile that either hit a 315 00:27:30.599 --> 00:27:36.039 hospital directly or hit very close to a hospital, and every said it's an 316 00:27:36.119 --> 00:27:38.079 Israeli missile, and Israel said, we don't think so, we're going to 317 00:27:38.119 --> 00:27:45.480 look into it. And this so understandably sending, you know, a rocket 318 00:27:45.599 --> 00:27:48.640 into a hospital, very close to a hospital. It's so upset people that 319 00:27:48.839 --> 00:27:56.880 Biden had had a series of visits with Arabic countries overseas, Saudi Arabia, 320 00:27:56.039 --> 00:28:00.200 Jordan, et cetera. They were so upset about this, and the New 321 00:28:00.279 --> 00:28:06.319 York Times trumpeted this report, you know, Israeli launched missile, hits hospital 322 00:28:06.480 --> 00:28:11.119 or comes close to hospital. That these Arab countries canceled their meetings with Biden, 323 00:28:11.359 --> 00:28:15.640 which was very unfortunate because it was still the early days of the war, 324 00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:18.960 and that might have those meetings might have helped somehow come up with some 325 00:28:19.160 --> 00:28:26.359 kind of ceasefire. Well guess what, after the Times trumpeted these things, 326 00:28:26.359 --> 00:28:30.519 you know, Israel launches you know, rocket attack on hospital. It turned 327 00:28:30.559 --> 00:28:37.799 out the next morning that not just US intelligence, but international intelligence confirmed that 328 00:28:37.960 --> 00:28:42.759 the rocket was not launched by Israel. It was launched by a Hamas affiliated 329 00:28:42.839 --> 00:28:48.599 group and it went off course and hit the hospital. So I remember being 330 00:28:48.720 --> 00:28:52.400 furious at the New York Times back then, saying, what is wrong with 331 00:28:52.480 --> 00:28:56.920 the New York Times, Wait until the evidence is in. They're so eager 332 00:28:56.400 --> 00:29:03.200 to like have the breaking news store that they actually did damage. Lives were 333 00:29:03.319 --> 00:29:07.359 lost because of their coverage of that story. So I'm saying this to you 334 00:29:07.640 --> 00:29:12.200 because I want to be honest about my feelings about the New York Times even 335 00:29:12.359 --> 00:29:19.799 before this happened. But yes, this editorial, it's not the news report. 336 00:29:19.920 --> 00:29:27.079 But this editorial actually is a continuation of op eds that the Times. 337 00:29:27.440 --> 00:29:32.119 They've been on this hobby horse for over a year now. I don't know 338 00:29:32.160 --> 00:29:37.640 if you recall last year, the summer of twenty twenty three, has Reclined 339 00:29:37.160 --> 00:29:41.400 published an op ed in The New York Times. He caughte for Biden to 340 00:29:41.559 --> 00:29:47.400 step aside then, And I don't know whether they think it's cool, whether 341 00:29:47.440 --> 00:29:52.240 they're so young they're allergic to anyone who's over sixty. I don't know what 342 00:29:52.519 --> 00:30:00.319 their problem is, but I thought the editorial was completely out of line, 343 00:30:00.160 --> 00:30:07.279 based on the fact that all it was talking about was his poor performance in 344 00:30:07.400 --> 00:30:11.440 the debate. Why the rush? Why not wait a week or two or 345 00:30:11.599 --> 00:30:15.759 three, you know, there's democratic national conventions, not until August. I 346 00:30:15.839 --> 00:30:21.519 mean, you talk about, you know, rush to judgment that For no 347 00:30:21.759 --> 00:30:26.200 other reason, they published the editor of the next day there was I was 348 00:30:26.319 --> 00:30:32.400 upset about the debate also, I think any reasonable person would be upset. 349 00:30:32.880 --> 00:30:37.680 But the New York Times is so upset they can't resist doing an editorial calling 350 00:30:37.759 --> 00:30:42.559 for Biden to step down. And two of the points. The Philadelphia Inquirer 351 00:30:44.279 --> 00:30:48.559 they got it right. They had an editorial and they said, we support 352 00:30:48.640 --> 00:30:53.680 Biden one hundred percent. We call upon Donald Trump to resign because he's a 353 00:30:53.839 --> 00:31:00.480 pathological liar. He lied more than ever during that debate, and it is 354 00:31:00.640 --> 00:31:06.880 absolutely unacceptable to have someone running for president, which, as you correctly said, 355 00:31:07.039 --> 00:31:10.559 every other word or maybe every word out of this guy's mouth is a 356 00:31:10.680 --> 00:31:12.839 lie. I mean, you can almost tell what the truth is by just 357 00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:18.519 thinking the opposite of what this guy is saying. So the Philadelphia Inquiry did 358 00:31:18.559 --> 00:31:23.039 the right thing. The New York Times not for the third time, I 359 00:31:23.119 --> 00:31:29.160 only gave two examples, probably for the fiftieth time in the last few years, 360 00:31:29.759 --> 00:31:33.680 did the wrong thing. And here let me say, they haven't let 361 00:31:33.960 --> 00:31:40.200 up. I just looked at an article that came out today. They take 362 00:31:40.480 --> 00:31:45.799 every little thing. Nancy Pelosi said she's going to go with whatever Joe decides. 363 00:31:47.119 --> 00:31:52.960 This means Nancy Pelosi no longer supports Biden. That's not true. Senator 364 00:31:53.000 --> 00:31:56.920 Schumer had to come out and say, look, as I already said, 365 00:31:56.960 --> 00:32:01.319 I'm supporting Joe Biden because the New York Time Times kept on public pushing artists, 366 00:32:01.440 --> 00:32:05.799 and you know, some of the Democratic leaders, you know, are 367 00:32:05.880 --> 00:32:10.519 not that steadfast, and they're support of Biden. So I'm sorry to say. 368 00:32:12.359 --> 00:32:15.319 Listen, I'm a kid. I started reading the New York Times when 369 00:32:15.359 --> 00:32:19.319 I was in high school, and I subscribed, you know, to the 370 00:32:19.400 --> 00:32:22.880 New York Times, and I would love getting the New York Times, and 371 00:32:22.920 --> 00:32:28.240 I associate the New York Times with eating lunch because the paper would come in. 372 00:32:28.839 --> 00:32:30.599 You know, we would have our class and you know, usually I'd 373 00:32:30.599 --> 00:32:34.519 be saying talking to some kids, but I'd always try, you know, 374 00:32:34.960 --> 00:32:38.680 to leave the lunch table a little early, so I have like ten minutes 375 00:32:38.720 --> 00:32:43.839 to read the New York Times. So I'm talking about literally, I was 376 00:32:43.920 --> 00:32:46.839 in high school in the early nineteen sixties, so that's how far I go 377 00:32:47.039 --> 00:32:51.319 back with the New York Times. I've been a devoted reader of The New 378 00:32:51.400 --> 00:32:55.440 York Times all of those years. The only reason why we haven't canceled our 379 00:32:55.519 --> 00:33:00.519 subscription to The New York Times is my wife still loves their crossword puzzles. 380 00:33:00.799 --> 00:33:05.680 Act she like stewing it up paper. But as far as the paper itself, 381 00:33:06.519 --> 00:33:10.079 what a rag. I think they did, you know, put in 382 00:33:10.200 --> 00:33:15.839 a dismal performance and they're still at it every single day. They couldn't wait 383 00:33:15.920 --> 00:33:22.640 to publish George Clooney's Ourbed any time there's a shade of doubt, which is 384 00:33:22.839 --> 00:33:28.240 what's calling people haven't heard, which was calling also calling for for Biden to 385 00:33:28.279 --> 00:33:31.000 step down. That's right, that's right, and now there's a whole story 386 00:33:32.240 --> 00:33:40.640 about that. Actually, George Clooney consulted Obama prior uh to to writing this 387 00:33:40.839 --> 00:33:45.519 our ed you know, and this in all fans not the New York Times 388 00:33:45.599 --> 00:33:51.319 published this politico, which is trying to emulate the New York Times. They 389 00:33:51.400 --> 00:33:55.440 have no reliable source, They have no sauce at all. They basically say, 390 00:33:57.079 --> 00:34:01.640 unnamed people have told us such and such really great journalism. You publish 391 00:34:01.720 --> 00:34:06.519 a story like that and you don't have a single reliable sauce. Well, 392 00:34:06.599 --> 00:34:10.400 let's talk about the media coverage overall. It's something that I've noticed too, 393 00:34:12.119 --> 00:34:15.880 it seems, and as you mentioned, not only hinted, but actually mentioned, 394 00:34:15.880 --> 00:34:20.480 it seems most times most papers, not only The Times, but many 395 00:34:21.079 --> 00:34:25.599 seem to jump on every gaf that Biden has, every mistake, every stumble 396 00:34:25.840 --> 00:34:31.800 all over it, while often giving Trump great latitude on what he's saying, 397 00:34:32.199 --> 00:34:37.599 with the exception of some of the more progressive liberal outlets like MSNBC, etc. 398 00:34:37.880 --> 00:34:42.719 Who are constantly calling him on his lies, and CNN does to a 399 00:34:42.840 --> 00:34:46.639 degree. But he also seems to get a pass, first of all, 400 00:34:47.119 --> 00:34:52.440 by being given an extraordinary amount of coverage and being allowed to say things that 401 00:34:53.000 --> 00:34:59.719 flat out aren't true. And I haven't seen many editorials you mentioned the Philadelphia 402 00:34:59.719 --> 00:35:02.360 inqu Ira being one, and I'll look for that. But I haven't seen 403 00:35:02.719 --> 00:35:08.440 an awful lot that have said unbalanced, Well, Biden may have stumbled. 404 00:35:08.599 --> 00:35:14.280 I've seen plenty of internet memes, mind you about that. I'd rather go 405 00:35:14.400 --> 00:35:16.480 with a man who stutters has got an honest heart than a man who lies 406 00:35:16.760 --> 00:35:21.800 with every breath. He takes something along those lines, but there's been no 407 00:35:22.280 --> 00:35:25.679 coherent cogent. As I said, I haven't seen many editorials that say, 408 00:35:25.800 --> 00:35:30.880 yes, Biden may be a little weak that way in terms of speaking in 409 00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:37.480 public, but he's certainly not lying with every breath. Why let me broaden 410 00:35:37.559 --> 00:35:42.239 that a little bit. What's your few on the coverage overall? Has it 411 00:35:42.360 --> 00:35:46.000 been balanced? No? It hasn't. And I think why is the Times 412 00:35:46.119 --> 00:35:52.360 doing this? Why is the Times working all overboard to every day have multiple 413 00:35:52.559 --> 00:35:58.639 negative stories about Biden and sometimes barely a mention of Trump. It's just a 414 00:35:58.760 --> 00:36:06.159 question of what's news. Everybody knows except the maga Republicans, and they don't 415 00:36:06.199 --> 00:36:09.840 read the Times anyway. Everybody knows that Trump is a liar, so it's 416 00:36:09.920 --> 00:36:15.199 not that newsworthy anymore. They says, another crazy thing, But it is 417 00:36:15.400 --> 00:36:22.119 newsworthy that someone. In fact, the person who is going to be Trump's 418 00:36:22.159 --> 00:36:30.559 opponent in this crucial election may not have the intellectual capability of being president. 419 00:36:31.079 --> 00:36:37.119 I think that's not true. But the very question is newsworthy. And so 420 00:36:38.039 --> 00:36:44.000 we saw this even prior to the debate. But after the debate, this 421 00:36:44.239 --> 00:36:52.760 became a news story that was ipso facto incredibly interesting and incredibly original. Really 422 00:36:52.840 --> 00:36:57.400 and in fact, the article that I was reading in the Times, just 423 00:36:57.760 --> 00:37:02.039 in Today's Times was delightful saying, you know, it's nothing new to haven't 424 00:37:02.079 --> 00:37:07.920 impaired. President Woodrow Wilson was half dead and his wife and his doctor YO 425 00:37:08.079 --> 00:37:14.400 kept things going. Nobody knew that Franklin Donald Rosevelt what illness he was suffering 426 00:37:14.440 --> 00:37:19.760 from after he was elected to a fourth term. No one knew about JFK's 427 00:37:19.840 --> 00:37:23.519 Addison's disease, etcetera, etcetera. That's how they set the article and then 428 00:37:23.599 --> 00:37:30.920 they plunged ahead. Wow, what an original story that Joe Biden is suffering 429 00:37:30.039 --> 00:37:34.800 from whatever it is they think he's suffering from. So, but the reason 430 00:37:34.840 --> 00:37:38.400 why they keep hammering on it and the media in general, is because it's 431 00:37:38.599 --> 00:37:45.000 more newsworthy. Let me also say though about MSNBC I'm getting a little annoyed 432 00:37:45.079 --> 00:37:51.719 with them. Also, frankly, there is one person on MSNBC, one 433 00:37:51.920 --> 00:37:57.320 anchor, Lawrence O'Donnell, who I think has his head screwed on correctly, 434 00:37:57.840 --> 00:38:00.920 and he has done a series of wonderful shows. For example, just last 435 00:38:01.079 --> 00:38:09.559 night, unlike anyone else on MSNBC, he showed uncut the whole eleven minute 436 00:38:10.079 --> 00:38:19.639 talk that Joe Biden gave to the a f of l CIO union leaders in 437 00:38:19.960 --> 00:38:23.400 Washington yesterday. It was a very emotional moment because a woman I'm not sure 438 00:38:23.400 --> 00:38:28.440 if she's head of the A of l CIO, she was saying the great 439 00:38:28.519 --> 00:38:35.719 contribution that Biden has given to labor in America and how Biden can count on 440 00:38:36.119 --> 00:38:39.239 the union standing behind him, and she was moved to tears. It was 441 00:38:39.320 --> 00:38:45.039 really, you know, a very emotional thing. So larncel. Dale said, 442 00:38:45.519 --> 00:38:49.800 there have been little clips of this, I want to play the whole 443 00:38:50.159 --> 00:38:55.039 eleven minute talk that he gave, and again it was Biden. He fumfered 444 00:38:55.119 --> 00:38:59.920 around a little bit, you know, he missed a word here or there, 445 00:39:00.119 --> 00:39:04.440 but he was one hundred percent cogent. His points were crystal clear, 446 00:39:05.519 --> 00:39:08.519 authentic. Yeah, so I'll ask MSNBC. I hope someone there is listening 447 00:39:08.599 --> 00:39:15.960 to that podcast. Why didn't Alex Wagner play the whole thing? Why don't 448 00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:20.280 you just play a little thing here or there where you can't really tell how 449 00:39:20.360 --> 00:39:24.400 he's speaking or what he's speaking. And frankly, it's the same thing. 450 00:39:24.760 --> 00:39:32.760 And also they mentioned Trump and his problems, but that's not such exciting news. 451 00:39:34.159 --> 00:39:37.000 I mean, look, it's like the old joke dog bites man. 452 00:39:37.599 --> 00:39:43.079 That's not news. That's what dogs do. Sometimes Trump is the dog that's 453 00:39:43.159 --> 00:39:46.559 biting this country. But man bites dog. That you know, some man 454 00:39:46.719 --> 00:39:52.280 loses his mind and bites his dogs. Also have more little more graphic. 455 00:39:52.599 --> 00:39:57.039 If it bleeds, it leads, meaning that the more dramatic, that's better. 456 00:39:57.199 --> 00:40:00.639 That was all an old newspaper saying, go to the break or when 457 00:40:01.000 --> 00:40:08.599 one last broad question too? Should news outlets, newspapers, news programs, 458 00:40:08.719 --> 00:40:14.079 half hour news show where the news stations that specialize in hard news, if 459 00:40:14.119 --> 00:40:19.440 you will? Should they do op eds? Should they editorialize? Is there 460 00:40:19.480 --> 00:40:24.159 a place for that? That's a good question because I've always thought, actually 461 00:40:24.719 --> 00:40:30.440 I've been off two minds of number one. I think op eds and editorials 462 00:40:30.480 --> 00:40:36.719 are very interesting, but Ever since I began thinking about and studying and writing 463 00:40:36.800 --> 00:40:40.119 about me, I've always thought that there is a problem with op eds because 464 00:40:40.199 --> 00:40:45.840 for the average person, you know, maybe crystal clear to the newspaper and 465 00:40:45.960 --> 00:40:51.480 may be crystal clear to professors like us, but to the average person, 466 00:40:51.920 --> 00:40:57.360 maybe they really often can't tell where the news ends and the op ed and 467 00:40:57.480 --> 00:41:01.360 the editorial begins. So I think it's a very good question. And I 468 00:41:01.599 --> 00:41:08.559 certainly think that this New York Times editorile did a lot of damage. And 469 00:41:10.719 --> 00:41:16.639 I hope that someday the New York Times will apologize for that and say we 470 00:41:16.800 --> 00:41:22.119 made a mistake. I know that I'm not going to forget it, and 471 00:41:22.320 --> 00:41:29.679 I'm looking forward to mid November, maybe doing another show with you, writing 472 00:41:29.760 --> 00:41:32.320 something in which I say, well, hey, New York Times, maybe 473 00:41:32.400 --> 00:41:37.480 you owe ys an apology. It turns out Biden did win. He seems 474 00:41:37.519 --> 00:41:42.239 to still be in pretty good shape. Maybe you'll think twice in another election 475 00:41:42.760 --> 00:41:49.159 before you shoot your mouth off so irresponsibly like that. Time will tell Paul 476 00:41:49.519 --> 00:41:51.360 take a quick break here. When we come back, I do want to 477 00:41:51.360 --> 00:41:53.719 talk a little about the future. What can we expect There's another debate coming, 478 00:41:54.159 --> 00:41:57.679 Will it be more of the same. What can we expect from you 479 00:41:57.800 --> 00:42:00.719 to candidate? And you also want to talk a little bit about its real 480 00:42:00.800 --> 00:42:02.639 life, what you're doing with that. I want to talk a little bit 481 00:42:02.639 --> 00:42:08.840 about your podcast. My guest is Fordham University media professor and frequent contributor. 482 00:42:08.920 --> 00:42:14.119 Here to Being Frank, Doctor Paul Levinson. We'll be back with more Being 483 00:42:14.199 --> 00:42:17.559 Frank right after these brief commercial messages. This is great as always, we 484 00:42:17.599 --> 00:42:22.320 can always count on doctor Paul Levinson for intelligent conversation. Don't go away, 485 00:42:22.360 --> 00:42:30.639 We'll be right back. Hudson River Radio dot com. Check out The angel 486 00:42:30.679 --> 00:42:36.360 Quest Show with psychic media and author Karen Noe. Karen covers spiritual topics such 487 00:42:36.400 --> 00:42:40.480 as near death experiences, reincarnation, life after death, how your thoughts create 488 00:42:40.559 --> 00:42:45.159 your reality, creating peace on Earth, and so much more. Check out 489 00:42:45.199 --> 00:42:51.159 The angel Quest Show on Apple Podcasts, iHeart, Spotify, or wherever you 490 00:42:51.280 --> 00:42:57.559 get your podcasts. Bring a dash of green into your life. Check out 491 00:42:57.639 --> 00:43:00.840 The Many Shades of Green with Maxine more, Argar Rubin and Malcolm Berman. 492 00:43:01.239 --> 00:43:07.440 Get informed about environmental issues and current events that affect us all. Pick a 493 00:43:07.480 --> 00:43:10.800 shade of green and raise your eco consciousness with the Many Shades of Green, 494 00:43:12.400 --> 00:43:17.119 available on Apple Podcasts, iHeart, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. 495 00:43:22.360 --> 00:43:30.320 Hudson Riverradio dot com. Welcome back to Being Frank, the Intelligent Conversation 496 00:43:30.559 --> 00:43:32.920 podcast. Thanks for sticking with us. I'm your host, Frank Lebuono. 497 00:43:34.599 --> 00:43:37.519 You know we'll bring our audience a fresh topic every week and we stream from 498 00:43:37.599 --> 00:43:42.840 Hudson River Radio, where Neil Richter is our engineer. I call him the 499 00:43:42.960 --> 00:43:47.440 Mailman because he always delivered, and that's located in beautiful and historic Stony Point, 500 00:43:47.519 --> 00:43:51.480 New York. But remember, you can catch any Being Frank anywhere you 501 00:43:51.559 --> 00:43:55.440 get your favorite podcasts like Apple, Spotify, iHeartRadio and the others. And 502 00:43:55.559 --> 00:43:59.840 because every Being Frank is archived, you can listen to any of our pro 503 00:44:00.480 --> 00:44:04.039 anytime you like. You can find the link to Being Frank on the Hudson 504 00:44:04.119 --> 00:44:10.119 River Radio Facebook page or at our website Hudsonriverradio dot com. Find my icon, 505 00:44:10.280 --> 00:44:14.559 click on it and you're there. Leave us a comment, and please 506 00:44:14.639 --> 00:44:17.280 consider subscribing to the podcast, and if you really like us, why not 507 00:44:17.719 --> 00:44:22.599 share us. I think I think we're worthy and I hopefully you do too. 508 00:44:22.239 --> 00:44:29.920 My guest is a frequent contributor, Fordham Media for University media professor and 509 00:44:30.000 --> 00:44:35.599 my colleague, doctor Paul Levinson. We're talking everything debate, the fallout, 510 00:44:35.679 --> 00:44:40.079 et cetera. With that in mind, going forward, Paul, what should 511 00:44:40.159 --> 00:44:44.960 we expect? There is another debate I believe on ABC coming up in another 512 00:44:45.039 --> 00:44:50.800 few weeks, and interestingly we will be after the Republican Convention, and since 513 00:44:50.840 --> 00:44:55.079 Trump is the presumptive nominee, it should be official by the time the next 514 00:44:55.159 --> 00:45:00.639 debate happens. But what do you see what changes my be made, particularly 515 00:45:00.719 --> 00:45:04.639 from the Biden camp. I mean, Trump will always be Trump. I 516 00:45:04.760 --> 00:45:07.880 think we can expect that. But if Biden is the one who needs to 517 00:45:08.039 --> 00:45:12.719 change, he needs to find it, certainly needs to find a better formula. 518 00:45:13.199 --> 00:45:17.440 So going forward, what do you expect from Biden in particular? Okay, 519 00:45:17.960 --> 00:45:22.400 I think the second debate is set for some time in early September, 520 00:45:22.880 --> 00:45:28.159 so that means the Biden or, if not Biden, some other Democrats. 521 00:45:30.679 --> 00:45:36.119 So I don't know, you know what to expect or whether there will be 522 00:45:36.280 --> 00:45:45.599 a debate. Trump may be getting advice which is probably pretty a student advice 523 00:45:45.639 --> 00:45:52.039 for Trump that why bother to do a second debate? Biden is so poorly 524 00:45:52.119 --> 00:45:55.639 in the first debate, you don't need that. And otherwise, all the 525 00:45:55.800 --> 00:46:00.360 second debate could do in terms of Trump is somehow Biden comes on really strong 526 00:46:00.840 --> 00:46:08.639 and that washes away the understandable shock that so many people had watching the first 527 00:46:08.719 --> 00:46:15.719 debate. As far as Biden doing another debate, I am not sure. 528 00:46:15.800 --> 00:46:17.719 If I were his advisor, I don't know what I would advise him. 529 00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:22.199 I mean, it's certainly a very dangerous thing to do, because if there 530 00:46:22.320 --> 00:46:28.760 is something about the debate that, for whatever reason, Biden is just no 531 00:46:28.920 --> 00:46:35.400 longer that comfortable with, why put him up in that situation again, as 532 00:46:35.440 --> 00:46:38.239 long as he's getting out to the public in other ways, for example, 533 00:46:38.440 --> 00:46:45.840 later today. We're recording this in the afternoon of July eleventh, as you 534 00:46:45.960 --> 00:46:49.079 mentioned at the beginning, and I know it's going to be up all over 535 00:46:49.199 --> 00:46:55.000 the Known and Unknown Universal podcast tonight, but I think at six point thirty 536 00:46:55.119 --> 00:46:59.920 this evening is going to be a press conference. So this is another hurdle 537 00:47:00.199 --> 00:47:02.639 for Biden and we'll see how he does. And again, so far, 538 00:47:02.760 --> 00:47:08.400 he's done I think very well in everything he did post debate, So Biden 539 00:47:08.480 --> 00:47:15.239 may not need another debate. And at this point, I don't know what 540 00:47:15.559 --> 00:47:19.800 I would if I had to bet money where I would bet put my money, 541 00:47:19.800 --> 00:47:23.679 I would probably decline to bet, because that's how I'm sure I am. 542 00:47:23.760 --> 00:47:28.400 About a debate in September, here was one last point, and it 543 00:47:28.679 --> 00:47:32.000 came up where you were talking a little bit about Trump too. He was 544 00:47:32.039 --> 00:47:37.119 surprisingly quiet immediately after debate. I thought he would have jumped all over that 545 00:47:37.239 --> 00:47:43.480 bandwagon. But do you think that was a strategy. Not that he ever 546 00:47:43.679 --> 00:47:46.039 listens, but I was kind of getting a feeling where people were saying, 547 00:47:46.079 --> 00:47:51.400 look, you don't have to do anything. Let them destroy themselves. And 548 00:47:51.559 --> 00:47:53.000 it's almost kind of seemed, at least for a little while, he took 549 00:47:53.079 --> 00:47:58.039 that advice. Is that your feeling? Yeah, one hundred percent. I 550 00:47:58.119 --> 00:48:00.280 think his advisors told him a second, have to debate. This was a 551 00:48:00.400 --> 00:48:10.119 fabulous night for you, You know, exactly right, keep your mouth shut 552 00:48:10.440 --> 00:48:17.719 for as long as you can and let the Democrats destroy themselves. And unfortunately, 553 00:48:19.400 --> 00:48:24.000 that's what the New York Times editorial, that's what George Stephanopolos speaking out 554 00:48:24.039 --> 00:48:31.480 of turn, that's what George Clooney, all of those presumably progressive people and 555 00:48:31.639 --> 00:48:37.599 outlets, that's what they've been doing. So that was astute advice given to 556 00:48:37.760 --> 00:48:42.159 Trump if it was given, and I agree with you that it probably was. 557 00:48:43.679 --> 00:48:45.920 Well, sit Scers a little bit and talk a little bit about Paul 558 00:48:45.960 --> 00:48:49.239 Evinston. I always tease you by calling you the renaissance man. I don't 559 00:48:49.320 --> 00:48:51.639 you know. I don't know how you do it. I'm a hyper character 560 00:48:51.679 --> 00:48:54.000 and you put me to shame. You're all to do so many things. 561 00:48:54.199 --> 00:48:58.639 I want to talk a little bit about real life, the alternative history of 562 00:48:58.679 --> 00:49:02.840 the Beatles. Uh. Your novel that it's been a radio play and getting 563 00:49:02.880 --> 00:49:07.920 really great reviews. What's the latest with with that? Well, first of 564 00:49:07.960 --> 00:49:19.039 all, apropos of Nayak, which I increasingly think of as your town a 565 00:49:19.199 --> 00:49:23.039 podcast for another day. You have that town of the party ahead. Sure, 566 00:49:24.719 --> 00:49:27.880 no, I do because I'm so shy. That's what it is. 567 00:49:27.920 --> 00:49:32.960 Because you're you're a great exponent for Nayak. You're a great promoter of Nayak. 568 00:49:34.440 --> 00:49:42.440 And I'm delighted that Big Red Books Richie invited me back with another author 569 00:49:42.880 --> 00:49:47.400 to have a meet and greet on October sixth is from two is from twelve 570 00:49:47.559 --> 00:49:52.199 noon to two pm. Uh, and to show you how important I think 571 00:49:52.280 --> 00:49:58.679 that is. There is going to also be that weekend an Edgar Allan po 572 00:49:58.960 --> 00:50:07.199 festival in in Baltimore, and I was invited to go there, and that's 573 00:50:07.239 --> 00:50:10.000 a pretty good thing also, but I said no, I'm sorry. I 574 00:50:10.199 --> 00:50:19.119 have a meet and greeting a bookstore in Frankstown, so you know, maybe 575 00:50:19.159 --> 00:50:23.000 I'll drop in through zoom or something. So that's one thing, and they're 576 00:50:23.000 --> 00:50:27.559 going to be more in person events. In person events, I've learned one 577 00:50:27.639 --> 00:50:30.320 thing as an author, the hard way, and anyone who's listening who's an 578 00:50:30.320 --> 00:50:37.280 author or would be author, the way most publishers work. They publish the 579 00:50:37.320 --> 00:50:40.039 book and then they promote the book for about a month if you're lucky, 580 00:50:40.519 --> 00:50:45.519 and unless you're Stephen King, forget about it. After that, you're lucky 581 00:50:45.639 --> 00:50:50.000 if you can get them if you're doing a signing in a bookstore to get 582 00:50:50.079 --> 00:50:52.360 books there. And I learned the hard way that you really have to get 583 00:50:52.480 --> 00:50:58.480 behind the book and keep promoting the book and keep thinking of new people you 584 00:50:58.639 --> 00:51:04.559 can send it to might review it. So that's what I've been doing a 585 00:51:04.639 --> 00:51:07.960 lot. But there are some excellent people. Now I'm not going to mention 586 00:51:07.079 --> 00:51:10.719 their names, but I think people are going to be surprised by a new 587 00:51:10.920 --> 00:51:15.880 set of reviews that are going to be available probably in the next couple of 588 00:51:15.920 --> 00:51:20.719 weeks or a month. The other thing that I very much want to do, 589 00:51:21.320 --> 00:51:23.840 and this is an exploration, but I can't mention any names until it 590 00:51:23.960 --> 00:51:31.559 becomes more definite, is making a limited TV series about its real life. 591 00:51:32.599 --> 00:51:37.719 Sadly, I don't think I'll get to play Pete Forna tell It was enough 592 00:51:37.800 --> 00:51:42.719 that they let me play that part. He's the lead character in the radio 593 00:51:42.960 --> 00:51:45.400 play, so I assume they'll get a better actor to do this. But 594 00:51:45.559 --> 00:51:50.559 this is a long way off. But if you listeners are interested, this 595 00:51:50.800 --> 00:51:54.760 is being worked on, and one fine day I'll be on Frank's podcast and 596 00:51:54.800 --> 00:51:58.840 I'll be able to say, well, Hey, such and such is making 597 00:51:58.920 --> 00:52:01.760 this into a TV series terrific. Now, tell us to know a little 598 00:52:01.760 --> 00:52:05.639 bit about your podcast. Of course, you had to get in and compete 599 00:52:05.679 --> 00:52:07.920 with me with your own podcast, but there's plenty of room for both of 600 00:52:08.039 --> 00:52:12.440 us, right, Paul, tell us about your podcast, what it's called, 601 00:52:12.480 --> 00:52:15.960 and where can people catch it? Okay, First of all, I 602 00:52:15.119 --> 00:52:22.400 started the podcast and it's been in play continuously since two thousand and six, 603 00:52:22.960 --> 00:52:30.159 when you were just a little boy. Yes, in high school. It's 604 00:52:30.239 --> 00:52:36.159 called light on light through, And I came up with that name because people 605 00:52:36.320 --> 00:52:39.840 who are familiar with Marshall McLuhan's worked. One of the things that Marshall McLuhan 606 00:52:39.920 --> 00:52:45.079 said again way back in the nineteen sixties, is there are two ways that 607 00:52:45.280 --> 00:52:51.440 we human beings experience light. One way, and in fact the main way, 608 00:52:51.559 --> 00:52:54.039 is when light bounces off something. It's like you look at the world 609 00:52:54.039 --> 00:52:59.079 and you see the light bouncing off trees, off sidewalks, off swimming pools, 610 00:52:59.360 --> 00:53:02.800 off car that's light on, light bouncing off. And when you're reading 611 00:53:04.000 --> 00:53:07.039 something on a piece of paper, the light is bouncing off the paper to 612 00:53:07.199 --> 00:53:14.000 your eyes. But there's also a much more profound way that we perceive light, 613 00:53:14.159 --> 00:53:16.840 and that's when it's light through. So when you look up at the 614 00:53:16.920 --> 00:53:22.159 sky and you see this blue sky, the light isn't bouncing off the blue 615 00:53:22.239 --> 00:53:25.360 sky. The light from the sun is coming through the blue sky. Or 616 00:53:25.480 --> 00:53:30.960 when you look at a starry night, the light isn't bouncing off the stars. 617 00:53:30.360 --> 00:53:36.519 The light is coming from the stars and permeating the black sky. And 618 00:53:37.000 --> 00:53:39.159 McLean said, and this is why I loved his workers. He had such 619 00:53:39.559 --> 00:53:46.119 almost like a religiously inclined mind. Light Through is much more profound. It 620 00:53:46.320 --> 00:53:51.679 reaches an inner core of us in a way that light On doesn't. So 621 00:53:51.840 --> 00:53:54.800 me my arrogant way. My podcast is light On light Through. I do 622 00:53:54.960 --> 00:54:00.880 everything the super Bowl. Being Frank's not arrogant at all. Jesus, how 623 00:54:00.960 --> 00:54:01.760 did I come up with a name like that? And you know, with 624 00:54:01.880 --> 00:54:07.480 my little, my tiny little ego, the only thing big about me is 625 00:54:07.599 --> 00:54:13.800 my ego. No, no's win. I guess being Frank it's the only 626 00:54:13.920 --> 00:54:20.480 way to be boy. Thank you as always for your intelligent conversation. You 627 00:54:20.559 --> 00:54:22.679 know you're always welcome here. We could go for another hour, but we 628 00:54:22.840 --> 00:54:28.400 got things up, so thank you, Paul always. It was my pleasure. 629 00:54:29.280 --> 00:54:32.079 Must we offer special thanks to our listeners who take the time to give 630 00:54:32.159 --> 00:54:36.519 us a voice in their lives. You know we got a tep fresh topic 631 00:54:36.679 --> 00:54:39.719 every week. Catch us, swear Ever and whenever you get your favorite podcasts, 632 00:54:40.000 --> 00:54:44.440 Apple, Spotify, Art Radio, and all the rest. Check us 633 00:54:44.480 --> 00:54:47.079 out on the Hutch and River Radio Facebook page. Like us, leave us 634 00:54:47.079 --> 00:54:52.039 a comment. We also ask that you consider sharing Being Frank with others. 635 00:54:52.480 --> 00:54:55.400 Okay, it's that time where we close the show with a little slogan and 636 00:54:55.519 --> 00:55:00.559 some great music. First, this one's from Plato, and we always try 637 00:55:00.559 --> 00:55:05.199 to do something kind of appropriate. It says democracy is a charming form of 638 00:55:05.280 --> 00:55:10.039 government, full of variety and disorder and dispensing a sort of equality to equals 639 00:55:10.519 --> 00:55:17.039 and unequals alike. Pretty good stuff. I guess if you're Plato you can 640 00:55:17.079 --> 00:55:22.639 come up with stuff like that. And now we also have an original tune 641 00:55:22.639 --> 00:55:27.119 from one of my favorites, the Ruse Brothers, Billy and Steve and their 642 00:55:27.519 --> 00:55:31.440 alter ego with the Up South Twisters. They have a special four PM and 643 00:55:31.880 --> 00:55:37.079 matinee coming up this Sunday, the fourteenth. That's a legendary turning point and 644 00:55:37.159 --> 00:55:40.920 they're gonna leave us with this rocking song as they always do. Rock out. 645 00:55:42.280 --> 00:55:45.199 If the phone don't ring for our engineer, Neil Richter the mailman. 646 00:55:45.280 --> 00:55:49.400 I'm your host, Frank Lebono, and we hope to have this. Have 647 00:55:49.559 --> 00:55:52.719 you join us on the next being Frank, We're the only way to be 648 00:55:52.519 --> 00:56:04.039 is Frank. Thanks everyone, I can't call you the fat time to face 649 00:56:04.400 --> 00:56:10.639 the fast. I know that any of the world, it's the chefree if 650 00:56:10.679 --> 00:56:17.000 they go, mes go, if you leave the prom you know, added 651 00:56:17.079 --> 00:56:25.960 the phone, don't bring you do it's me it's dreamway. You don't call 652 00:56:28.800 --> 00:56:37.280 you go scream little guy, w T stop the ball in the same call 653 00:56:37.440 --> 00:56:45.599 it a pretty page because that's a call that's never read it free? What's 654 00:56:45.760 --> 00:56:52.400 letting it talk of out the matter? The ca have headed god phone, 655 00:56:53.039 --> 00:57:40.760 don't do tho I can't said by and this side are and why turn long 656 00:57:42.039 --> 00:57:52.519 summers to present start? I know it's ball to see something retely extree and 657 00:57:52.679 --> 00:58:04.199 w boll plans and we didn't be found bay before you call the class the 658 00:58:04.280 --> 00:58:15.320 puck pray, don't do it. You don't pay when you go in go 659 00:58:15.519 --> 00:58:27.760 ast me when tear go flock fall speed in se call me are pa because 660 00:58:27.840 --> 00:58:36.079 that's a fall that's never remain free. Would let you tip the line of 661 00:58:36.320 --> 00:58:45.679 the health in those phones, don't bring yours in those phones, go to 662 00:58:45.800 --> 00:59:05.519 bring your do it's th ball, don't ring you know it's Hudson River Radio 663 00:59:05.760 --> 00:59:07.360 dot com m