WEBVTT 1 00:00:30.039 --> 00:00:34.159 Welcome to mid Rats with Sal from Commander Salamander and Eagle One from Eagle Speak 2 00:00:34.399 --> 00:00:39.119 at Seer Shore your home for a discussion of national security issues and all things 3 00:00:39.119 --> 00:00:45.520 maritime and welcome aboard everybody. I am the aforementioned Sal. We have my 4 00:00:45.679 --> 00:00:49.880 co host Eagle one from Eagle Spake on board today. This is usually what 5 00:00:50.000 --> 00:00:54.200 I'm We're here live that invite people to come in and join the chat room. 6 00:00:54.439 --> 00:00:58.640 Unfortunately, there seems to be a software error with the live chat room, 7 00:00:59.600 --> 00:01:02.560 so I I can't invite you there. I'll keep trying to refresh if 8 00:01:02.560 --> 00:01:04.200 it comes on board, I'll let the folks who are with us live know. 9 00:01:04.719 --> 00:01:10.599 But I am monitoring my ex slash Twitter account, So if you have 10 00:01:10.680 --> 00:01:15.120 some observations about the show you would like to share with us. Are some 11 00:01:15.239 --> 00:01:21.400 questions you'd like for direct to our guests at Cdr Salamander on Twitter slash x. 12 00:01:22.079 --> 00:01:25.519 I'll be having it up during the courses show and I'll be glad to 13 00:01:25.680 --> 00:01:29.680 grab your ideas and throw it in there. But besides that, with the 14 00:01:29.680 --> 00:01:34.879 intro, let's hop in directly to today's show and back on the twelfth of 15 00:01:34.879 --> 00:01:41.319 February, our guest today had a guest post on my substack and do a 16 00:01:41.359 --> 00:01:45.719 little quote for it. Quote. The combat performance of US Navy's destroyers and 17 00:01:45.760 --> 00:01:49.040 the Red Sea against a variety of weapons employed by the Houthis and Yemen stands 18 00:01:49.120 --> 00:01:55.480 as a monument to decades of brilliance, hard work, and dedication across generations 19 00:01:55.480 --> 00:02:00.079 and naval officers and government civilians, industry executive, talented engine years and technologists, 20 00:02:00.079 --> 00:02:06.680 assembly line workers and shipbuilders. This is the military industrial complex and it 21 00:02:06.879 --> 00:02:09.919 works. Unquote. That, of course, is from the great Brian McGrath, 22 00:02:10.039 --> 00:02:16.039 Commander US Navy retired, the managing director of the Ferrybridge Group, a 23 00:02:16.120 --> 00:02:21.240 defense consultancy. As always Brian's opinions when he comes along with us, which 24 00:02:21.280 --> 00:02:23.759 I mentioned in the pre show, it's been over a decade he's been blessing 25 00:02:23.840 --> 00:02:29.960 us with his presence here on mid Rats are his owns, not necessarily affiliated 26 00:02:30.000 --> 00:02:34.240 with any organizations our companies. He may spend some time with. Brian, 27 00:02:34.360 --> 00:02:38.479 Welcome back to mid Rats. It's great to have you board. Thank you 28 00:02:38.520 --> 00:02:42.240 for having me, Thank you for having me. The blessing is mine to 29 00:02:42.319 --> 00:02:46.639 have this opportunity to talk with you guys. Oh you're too kind and kind 30 00:02:46.680 --> 00:02:50.319 of like we do with authors of books, and I don't work scare any 31 00:02:50.319 --> 00:02:53.319 about the way your post you put out on the twelfth of February is not 32 00:02:53.400 --> 00:02:59.479 a book, but you can see the framework of somebody who wanted to write 33 00:02:59.520 --> 00:03:02.800 a book along these lines, but just as a scenes that are for the 34 00:03:02.840 --> 00:03:07.800 listeners who are now scrambling over to my substack to grab it and read it. 35 00:03:07.879 --> 00:03:13.680 Give us a brief outline about what your article has to say and what 36 00:03:13.719 --> 00:03:16.520 boosted you along to be able to go to the typewriter and pump it out. 37 00:03:19.840 --> 00:03:24.159 Yeah, thank you. What I was responding to was a very positive 38 00:03:24.159 --> 00:03:30.879 thing, and that was this outpouring of praise and adulation for what the ships 39 00:03:30.919 --> 00:03:37.319 were doing in the Northern Red Sea and the performance of those ships and crews 40 00:03:37.319 --> 00:03:46.080 and combat systems under real world combat conditions against targets ranging from easy targets to 41 00:03:46.080 --> 00:03:53.560 shoot down to ballistic missiles anti ship ballistic missiles, which is something no navy 42 00:03:53.879 --> 00:04:00.719 on Earth has ever had to shoot down in combat before. I was watching 43 00:04:01.000 --> 00:04:06.800 and with with great interest and great pride the praise that was coming the way 44 00:04:06.919 --> 00:04:11.280 of the Surface Force. I'm I am in the tank for the Surface Force. 45 00:04:11.400 --> 00:04:17.720 I'm a former destroyer captain. I consult to both the Surface Force Commander 46 00:04:17.839 --> 00:04:21.480 on the West Coast and to the Director of Service War Programs at kind of 47 00:04:21.519 --> 00:04:28.120 gone. I do those things because that's where my interest is, and it's 48 00:04:28.639 --> 00:04:30.040 to an extent that I have anything I'm good at, that's that's what I'm 49 00:04:30.079 --> 00:04:35.079 good at. So I'm watching this force that I am, that I love 50 00:04:35.199 --> 00:04:40.079 and that I have spent so much time trying to help out, really getting 51 00:04:40.079 --> 00:04:46.720 a lot of praise and adulation. And then I saw an article in uh 52 00:04:46.759 --> 00:04:54.360 in National Review about the military industrial complex and about the delivery of the speech 53 00:04:54.399 --> 00:04:58.519 and Eisenhower's delivery of it. I think it's by guy named Pino, who's 54 00:04:58.560 --> 00:05:08.639 a smart cookie, and I seized on one paragraph in Eisenhower's speech. It 55 00:05:08.680 --> 00:05:13.800 was his farewell to the Nation, which had so much more than just a 56 00:05:13.879 --> 00:05:18.959 discussion of the military industrial complex. But he warned, He warned the country, 57 00:05:19.439 --> 00:05:23.920 and it had special meaning coming from a retired five star general and the 58 00:05:25.639 --> 00:05:34.360 leader of America's war effort in Europe. He warned against unwarranted influence by the 59 00:05:34.399 --> 00:05:45.279 military industrial complex. And that phrase has come to be mangled and shorthanded into 60 00:05:46.279 --> 00:05:48.720 another one that you hear all the time, which is beware the military industrial 61 00:05:48.759 --> 00:05:56.000 complex. And I was thinking to myself, don't people understand that the things 62 00:05:56.040 --> 00:06:02.120 that they are praising and lauding today in the Red Sea are the result of 63 00:06:02.439 --> 00:06:10.720 that military industrial complex. And I began to think about, not only how 64 00:06:10.759 --> 00:06:13.920 over the course of one man's career, which was my own, which is 65 00:06:13.920 --> 00:06:18.800 the only one I'm really familiar with the ships that I served on, when 66 00:06:18.839 --> 00:06:21.279 I went from one to the next, to the next to the next, 67 00:06:21.720 --> 00:06:27.360 five times, they all got better. Each ship was more capable than the 68 00:06:27.399 --> 00:06:35.360 previous one. And I thought about how this was obviously not accidental, This 69 00:06:35.639 --> 00:06:43.680 was purposeful. This was the work of talented people achieving goals, setting goals, 70 00:06:43.680 --> 00:06:48.600 and achieving goals over time. So I wanted to talk about what we 71 00:06:48.720 --> 00:06:55.480 see in the gulf in the Red Sea today and how it is the result 72 00:06:55.600 --> 00:07:01.600 of the proper functioning of the military industrial complex. Made a huge mistake in 73 00:07:05.120 --> 00:07:13.279 titling that article. I forget what I called it, something like in praise 74 00:07:13.319 --> 00:07:18.160 of the military and industrial complex. I should have said something like in praise 75 00:07:18.199 --> 00:07:24.879 of one small portion of a large, unwieldy, out of control, corrupt 76 00:07:25.120 --> 00:07:30.519 and and bloated military industrial complex that just happened to get it right in this 77 00:07:31.040 --> 00:07:38.160 one tiny little thing that is shooting things down in the air, because of 78 00:07:38.160 --> 00:07:45.279 course everything else is screwed up, corrupt, over budget, bloated and terrible. 79 00:07:45.399 --> 00:07:50.839 And I am obviously a hack for the defense industry. And so here's 80 00:07:50.879 --> 00:07:54.839 my story. That's what I should have called it. But you have rules 81 00:07:54.839 --> 00:07:58.000 for how long your articles can be. So I called it what I called 82 00:07:58.040 --> 00:08:01.720 it, but it was a it was a Oh. The other thing. 83 00:08:01.800 --> 00:08:05.519 The other thing that I wanted to do is I have worked in the Pentagon 84 00:08:07.319 --> 00:08:18.639 and around the Pentagon since nineteen ninety seven, and I've watched requirements officers in 85 00:08:18.759 --> 00:08:22.879 n ninety six come and go, and I've watched them work their butts off, 86 00:08:26.879 --> 00:08:31.279 you know, the over you know, just just trying to find money 87 00:08:31.279 --> 00:08:35.840 for their programs, trying to advocate for the things that they need to advocate 88 00:08:35.919 --> 00:08:39.879 for. They're trying to kill the things that they think are worth killing, 89 00:08:39.360 --> 00:08:43.879 working really hard, and I've watched them over the years, and I see 90 00:08:43.919 --> 00:08:46.639 it all the time. The guys they come in and they're full of pisson 91 00:08:46.720 --> 00:08:52.399 vinegar, and by the time they leave, they're beaten down because because things 92 00:08:52.519 --> 00:08:58.039 don't move all that quickly in the Pentagon, and you don't measure progress in 93 00:08:58.399 --> 00:09:03.279 milestones you mentioned it, you measure it in inch stones. It's not like 94 00:09:03.879 --> 00:09:07.759 going to see it's not like taking command of a mediocreship and making it a 95 00:09:07.799 --> 00:09:11.600 great ship which you can see every day. The evolution of that kind of 96 00:09:11.600 --> 00:09:15.600 thing happening. Change happened slowly, and over the course of a two or 97 00:09:15.639 --> 00:09:18.879 three year tour. Some of these guys get ground down and they start and 98 00:09:20.200 --> 00:09:22.200 they get a little dejected. And what I've tried to do was to show 99 00:09:22.320 --> 00:09:31.519 how over thirty five years, a series of ground down action officers and the 100 00:09:31.639 --> 00:09:37.799 actions that they took over that period of time mattered. It mattered in a 101 00:09:39.000 --> 00:09:45.919 very demonstrable way. It mattered in the lives that are being saved routinely in 102 00:09:45.960 --> 00:09:52.360 the Red Sea by weapon systems operated by well trained sailors that are built to 103 00:09:52.480 --> 00:10:00.799 spec and built by a military industrial complex that has its problems, but is 104 00:10:00.840 --> 00:10:07.639 the envy of the world. That's an overblown, way too wordy description of 105 00:10:07.639 --> 00:10:11.240 what I was writing about, but that's what I hope to accomplish with that 106 00:10:11.320 --> 00:10:16.639 piece. Over Yeah, I think one of the interesting aspects of that article 107 00:10:16.639 --> 00:10:22.720 from National Review by you know, which is called what People's miss in Eisenhower's 108 00:10:22.720 --> 00:10:30.759 Farrewell address is that since his time, the percentage of the GDP which has 109 00:10:30.840 --> 00:10:35.279 been being spent by a defense has dropped a way down. I mean, 110 00:10:35.320 --> 00:10:41.080 it's it's it's a it's not minuscule, but it's not. It's not what 111 00:10:41.120 --> 00:10:45.000 people think that we're spending, you know, seventy percent of our our of 112 00:10:45.000 --> 00:10:50.279 our federal budget on defense. It's it's fifteen percent. It's not anywhere close 113 00:10:50.360 --> 00:10:54.000 to what it was during Eisenhower's time. And I think that a lot of 114 00:10:54.039 --> 00:11:00.360 people who complain about the military industrial complex don't grasp that it's not the uh, 115 00:11:00.600 --> 00:11:03.080 the octopus they seem to think of it. It is an octopus, 116 00:11:03.159 --> 00:11:07.759 but it's not. There's not the octopus they think it there are. There 117 00:11:07.759 --> 00:11:15.960 are two broad categories of critics of the military industrial complex. One is is 118 00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:20.000 the is the the critic who would rather see that money being put to other 119 00:11:20.159 --> 00:11:28.879 uses. Generally speaking, those are uh social programs, their domestic programs. 120 00:11:28.519 --> 00:11:33.080 Uh and and and that's an honorable position. That's what we do in a 121 00:11:33.120 --> 00:11:35.679 democracy, is we decide how to divide the pie and what are the most 122 00:11:35.720 --> 00:11:41.519 important places to put our money. The other group of people who criticize the 123 00:11:41.519 --> 00:11:48.639 military industrial complex are a group of people who, for for want of a 124 00:11:48.639 --> 00:11:52.840 better term, think they know better who because they had a job you know, 125 00:11:52.039 --> 00:12:01.159 as a you know, director of business operations for twenty five million dollar 126 00:12:01.240 --> 00:12:05.360 defense contractor for fifteen years in uh, you know, in in Arlington, 127 00:12:05.440 --> 00:12:13.360 Virginia, have solved forever, in all times the mysteries of the military industrial 128 00:12:13.440 --> 00:12:22.320 complex, and everybody else is screwed up, everybody else is corrupt. If 129 00:12:22.399 --> 00:12:28.519 only people listened to me, if only people did what I said. That's 130 00:12:28.559 --> 00:12:33.799 the other brand of critics that we see quite a bit. And you know, 131 00:12:33.840 --> 00:12:41.480 I hear I hear from those those people all the time over I think 132 00:12:41.519 --> 00:12:45.600 what's interesting about and you know, goodness knows, I think both of us 133 00:12:45.600 --> 00:12:48.759 have had, you know, like anything anything else you love or anyone else 134 00:12:48.879 --> 00:12:52.759 you love, you praise the good. But if you really love somebody, 135 00:12:52.840 --> 00:12:58.440 you have to point out where they don't meet their their potential. They make 136 00:12:58.480 --> 00:13:01.759 a mistake. You know, you don't we have affection for something. You 137 00:13:01.799 --> 00:13:07.320 aren't silent when they are hurting themselves and those they love, so to speak, 138 00:13:07.639 --> 00:13:11.600 So It's not perfect, but there is no human institution that is perfect. 139 00:13:11.600 --> 00:13:16.159 But when I first saw the draft of your post, I just kept 140 00:13:16.240 --> 00:13:22.200 going yes, and we and others had started to point out just this great 141 00:13:22.440 --> 00:13:28.399 level of success. Yes, you know, the Huthis are a non state 142 00:13:28.480 --> 00:13:31.480 actor at the best of fourth rate power, but as you mentioned, they 143 00:13:31.480 --> 00:13:37.399 are throwing stuff at our fleet and our destroyers with their plus or minus a 144 00:13:37.399 --> 00:13:41.720 few years forty year old skippers in their twenty something crew. Then nobody else 145 00:13:41.720 --> 00:13:46.559 has seen the anti ship ballistic missile and also a very complicated environment with the 146 00:13:48.320 --> 00:13:54.799 everything from the flying lawnlower UAVs to some no kidding, at least second generation 147 00:13:56.000 --> 00:14:00.840 anti ship cruise missiles that have made trouble for our navies and others a lot 148 00:14:00.879 --> 00:14:03.759 in the last few decades. And there is something that people should take a 149 00:14:03.799 --> 00:14:09.720 deep breath and go, yeah, this this has worked because it contrasts with 150 00:14:13.320 --> 00:14:16.759 you look at what the Russian Navy and the Black Sea has been able to 151 00:14:16.799 --> 00:14:18.159 face. And you know you talked about an evolution. I do want to 152 00:14:18.200 --> 00:14:22.519 dive into it a little bit because I think that story is fascinating. But 153 00:14:22.679 --> 00:14:28.679 you know, you and I both have young midshipman in jail experiences with the 154 00:14:28.720 --> 00:14:33.000 Knox class frigates. And you know, your first ship was the Candleist FF 155 00:14:33.080 --> 00:14:39.759 ten eighty four, which was commissioned in nineteen seventy two, and you have 156 00:14:39.480 --> 00:14:43.840 the Moskva, which was actually whole one of the Soviet Slava class. It 157 00:14:43.879 --> 00:14:50.200 was commissioned ten years later in nineteen eighty two, roughly the same generation of 158 00:14:50.320 --> 00:14:56.120 ship, and we saw what happened to the Slava and a lot of the 159 00:14:56.159 --> 00:15:03.679 other Russian black sea fleet that there is another one of the better funded, 160 00:15:03.159 --> 00:15:07.159 even though they had a little bit of a spot of bother after the Soviet 161 00:15:07.240 --> 00:15:11.320 Union, but in a global sense, an organization that had on paper a 162 00:15:11.480 --> 00:15:18.840 very impressive navy. But when the ultimate test came, which is your lack 163 00:15:18.919 --> 00:15:22.320 of a better phrase, your non permissive, non scheduled range time when stuff 164 00:15:22.360 --> 00:15:28.200 is coming at you, they have not been able to perform. So, 165 00:15:30.080 --> 00:15:33.679 looking at specifically the IgA system if you want to tie that into the early 166 00:15:33.759 --> 00:15:39.360 Burks and how that has developed, one of the early performed real well was 167 00:15:39.399 --> 00:15:46.840 the USS Laboon DDG fifty eight, which is a sister of the ship you 168 00:15:46.919 --> 00:15:50.720 turned over command to back in two thousand. Ship two thousand and six, 169 00:15:52.159 --> 00:15:58.600 which was a flight one early Burke. But they're out there performing as the 170 00:15:58.600 --> 00:16:03.039 American taxpayer would want. You know, what is it about that that program 171 00:16:03.639 --> 00:16:08.480 that allowed them to be put in a situation where you know, whether you're 172 00:16:08.519 --> 00:16:11.840 looking at what happened to the Fitzgerald and they came that was other issues. 173 00:16:14.320 --> 00:16:18.240 There hasn't been the gold star, happy face news coming across. But even 174 00:16:18.360 --> 00:16:26.279 I think the most cynical critic of what the US military does in a procurement 175 00:16:26.320 --> 00:16:30.279 point of view, I think has to step back and look, Okay, 176 00:16:30.440 --> 00:16:37.519 something is working here. What is it now? What's what's working there? 177 00:16:40.000 --> 00:16:45.679 There's a couple things. What the foundational thing that worked? There was a 178 00:16:45.799 --> 00:16:56.360 relationship between the government and industry. That was again another instance of the military 179 00:16:56.440 --> 00:17:04.200 industrial complex firing on a cylinders. You had, you had a Navy customer 180 00:17:06.119 --> 00:17:15.400 with sufficient technical capability in the oversight organs assigned to it overseeing the design, 181 00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:22.279 testing, and production of two classes of ships versus the Ticondo Rugg class cruiser 182 00:17:22.319 --> 00:17:27.720 and then the Arley Burtschlawyer, both of which were you know, one was 183 00:17:27.759 --> 00:17:33.599 a late seventies project, the other was a mid eighties project, and we 184 00:17:33.759 --> 00:17:41.960 built those ships for a long time, and we built did They were designed 185 00:17:41.079 --> 00:17:55.440 and supported by an organization and a navy that concentrated on effectiveness and efficiency rather 186 00:17:55.480 --> 00:18:03.759 than efficiency over effectiveness. We win the Cold War and we we we lose 187 00:18:03.759 --> 00:18:08.759 our minds. This is I mean, we we we eviscerate NVC and the 188 00:18:08.799 --> 00:18:15.200 technical oversight. We decide that we want to build ships. Uh build to 189 00:18:15.319 --> 00:18:22.599 spec uh uh uh performance specs rather than design specs, which gives us. 190 00:18:22.960 --> 00:18:26.400 One of the things that gives us is the LCS class. We we just 191 00:18:26.680 --> 00:18:36.720 we we threw out tried and tested approaches to fielding, advanced capability, chasing 192 00:18:37.680 --> 00:18:42.960 the go go world of efficiency that was the military industrial complex not working on 193 00:18:44.119 --> 00:18:51.000 eight cylinders. We got some, we got some turns in there. We 194 00:18:51.200 --> 00:18:55.200 uh and you know, nobody, nobody knows what they are better than than 195 00:18:55.240 --> 00:18:57.279 the two of you. L c S was a problem. Uh, the 196 00:18:57.359 --> 00:19:06.440 d d g X was a problem. The flight the Arlely Birth destroyers have 197 00:19:06.559 --> 00:19:12.680 continued to plug along, and they plugged along because they retained much of the 198 00:19:12.720 --> 00:19:17.839 support mechanisms that it was born with, not all of it. Don't get 199 00:19:17.839 --> 00:19:21.440 me wrong. We've took we've taken away some of that support that they're trying 200 00:19:21.440 --> 00:19:25.720 to build slowly back to now. But it didn't just shed at all. 201 00:19:26.559 --> 00:19:33.359 And so we have and we had the LPG seventeen class, which uh was 202 00:19:33.160 --> 00:19:37.559 you know, envisioned late, you know, at the at the U, 203 00:19:37.000 --> 00:19:41.759 you know, right around the time the Cold War was over. We started 204 00:19:41.759 --> 00:19:47.079 to build, but we had a design. We got a mature design for 205 00:19:47.160 --> 00:19:49.039 it. We got a mature design for the flight, for the for the 206 00:19:49.079 --> 00:19:53.200 flight one two and to alt the DDGs, and we built them in numbers, 207 00:19:53.319 --> 00:19:57.480 and we learned and whatever we learned from the last ship we rolled into 208 00:19:57.519 --> 00:20:06.480 the next ship. We we held requirements generally set until we had a new 209 00:20:06.759 --> 00:20:12.279 tranch or a new flight, at which point we would implement those requirements. 210 00:20:12.799 --> 00:20:18.880 We we lost our minds when we when we left the Cold War, and 211 00:20:18.920 --> 00:20:23.559 we and we decided we were going to be efficient, and we and and 212 00:20:23.680 --> 00:20:30.559 part of the problem was that we we cut a workforce in the government whose 213 00:20:30.640 --> 00:20:37.799 job it was to oversee what industry does. And and I'm not I don't 214 00:20:37.799 --> 00:20:41.200 want to blame industry. I don't want to blame the government. But we 215 00:20:41.319 --> 00:20:47.920 used to have a plus B and it gave us c Now we have A 216 00:20:48.079 --> 00:20:52.640 minus and B minus, giving us C minus. And that's the way it's 217 00:20:52.680 --> 00:21:02.799 been for decades. The whole team, government and industry is less than it 218 00:21:02.960 --> 00:21:07.200 used to be. And I think, until we turn the corner on this, 219 00:21:07.359 --> 00:21:08.920 until we recognize, you know, as I say, all the time, 220 00:21:10.000 --> 00:21:15.359 until we become serious again about building things, about designing, things about 221 00:21:15.759 --> 00:21:19.559 risk taking and risk management. We hear about risk taking all the time. 222 00:21:21.240 --> 00:21:22.799 Uh. And and this, you know, our Silicon Valley friends love to 223 00:21:22.839 --> 00:21:27.519 make us we all you know, the height of business performance is to take 224 00:21:27.640 --> 00:21:33.559 risks. No, the height of business performance is to manage risk. And 225 00:21:33.559 --> 00:21:38.559 and and we quite frankly haven't managed risk all that well. It's interesting to 226 00:21:38.599 --> 00:21:45.680 me that that the discussion evolves, I mean, is is evolution evolutionary? 227 00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:49.759 I mean, your discussion is evolutionary. Uh. You know, every iteration 228 00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:55.079 of the d DG is an improvement on the one that came before. Uh. 229 00:21:55.119 --> 00:21:56.880 And I go back to gearing class destroyers. I mean, the gearing 230 00:21:56.880 --> 00:22:02.319 class destroyer was an improvement on the on the last that came before before it. 231 00:22:02.759 --> 00:22:06.640 And you know, then all the destroyers that have come along since, 232 00:22:06.680 --> 00:22:10.599 all the improvement cinerator, all those iterations, you know, they they add 233 00:22:10.680 --> 00:22:14.960 up so that you know, if you're used to an SPS twenty six uh 234 00:22:15.119 --> 00:22:17.880 surface surgerator and all of a sudden you're looking at me. Just it is. 235 00:22:18.359 --> 00:22:22.799 It is similar, but vastly improved over what we used to have. 236 00:22:22.319 --> 00:22:29.000 I was reading Admiral Sandy Woodward's book on one hundred Days and thinking about the 237 00:22:29.039 --> 00:22:33.799 technology that he was trying to fight the Argentinians with and trying to see how 238 00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:37.039 that, how would how that would have changed Daddy had the technology we have 239 00:22:37.160 --> 00:22:41.839 today and and the iterations that are that are provided by somebody in the I 240 00:22:41.839 --> 00:22:47.119 think you're somewhere in your article you point out that somebody in the Pentagon says, 241 00:22:47.160 --> 00:22:51.599 you know, I would really like to have this that your your demand 242 00:22:51.640 --> 00:22:55.039 signal, and the the industry guys go, oh yeah, we could do 243 00:22:55.079 --> 00:22:57.480 that. But somebody asked todents say okay, well how much you know, 244 00:22:57.559 --> 00:23:00.400 how are we going to fund this kind of uh? Instead of as you 245 00:23:00.519 --> 00:23:04.400 said with the LCS, well here's our concept. Make us like this and 246 00:23:04.400 --> 00:23:08.440 and we'll pull it happily with it, which I think is completely different than 247 00:23:08.480 --> 00:23:14.599 the iterations we've done with almost every other weapons. The F eighteen Alfon bravo. 248 00:23:15.039 --> 00:23:18.160 You know, goes to the to the UH to the current model of 249 00:23:18.200 --> 00:23:23.160 super Hornets. They're completely different aircraft and much improved. But that is the 250 00:23:23.319 --> 00:23:26.119 that is the process, the way it's supposed to work. Talk about that 251 00:23:26.119 --> 00:23:30.319 a little bit and and some of the changes that that. I'm just like, 252 00:23:30.559 --> 00:23:34.720 if you're looking at Amroal Woodward's situation in UH in the in that war, 253 00:23:34.960 --> 00:23:40.079 or what we were doing in Desert Storm, that the differences in the 254 00:23:40.160 --> 00:23:42.279 in the UH in that time period of what we've got today. I mean 255 00:23:42.599 --> 00:23:45.079 that was we were wonder kids of those days. Everybody thought, well, 256 00:23:45.160 --> 00:23:48.240 yeah, all the high tech stuff we were doing, and that that seems 257 00:23:48.240 --> 00:23:53.440 to me to have been uh in retrospect to looking back all those years, 258 00:23:53.440 --> 00:24:02.960 I mean, that was that was ancient technology. It was and and you 259 00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:07.559 know, let's face it, I uh, I have ideas about where the 260 00:24:07.599 --> 00:24:10.880 fleet are to go, and where the surface force ought to go, and 261 00:24:10.920 --> 00:24:17.279 how to properly architect a combat system. I believe that what we have today 262 00:24:17.799 --> 00:24:22.440 may in fact be the class of the world, but it is a shadow 263 00:24:22.640 --> 00:24:30.000 of what I know we can do. Not you know, some aspirational UH 264 00:24:30.119 --> 00:24:33.559 buzz light year kind of thing, but no, what we can what we 265 00:24:33.640 --> 00:24:40.759 can do with the technology that the that the uh that the financial industry is 266 00:24:40.839 --> 00:24:47.240 moving billions of dollars in microseconds without a penny being lost and no no data 267 00:24:47.279 --> 00:24:51.920 loss. We can import some of that, the technology that is out there 268 00:24:51.960 --> 00:24:57.240 today into our ships in a way that's meaningful and gives us an incredible advantage. 269 00:24:57.240 --> 00:25:00.359 So I look at the sipulary the red seat right now, and there 270 00:25:00.359 --> 00:25:03.680 are a number of different combat system basedlines. There are very modern ones, 271 00:25:03.720 --> 00:25:08.039 there are some less modern ones. They are doing a wonderful job. I 272 00:25:08.200 --> 00:25:15.920 do. I do want to caution everybody that it's dangerous and that while I 273 00:25:15.960 --> 00:25:23.160 am proud of everything they're doing, someone may get hit and people may get 274 00:25:23.279 --> 00:25:27.039 hurt, and we have to keep that in mind. But so far, 275 00:25:27.200 --> 00:25:32.799 what I'm seeing is that is exactly what I expected. And I think I 276 00:25:32.880 --> 00:25:37.079 put this in my in my article that you know, when I looked at 277 00:25:37.079 --> 00:25:38.799 my ship and I trained my ship, and I looked at my combat system, 278 00:25:40.200 --> 00:25:45.839 I believed that if we went out and took on a proper opponent, 279 00:25:45.599 --> 00:25:52.279 my technology would be better than theirs, and that we would win that fight. 280 00:25:52.400 --> 00:25:55.240 We may not win the industrial fight. We may not win the rock 281 00:25:55.319 --> 00:26:00.440 fight, but we're gonna win that technology fight, and we're seeing that right 282 00:26:00.480 --> 00:26:03.920 now. We're seeing it in a big way. Now. A lot of 283 00:26:03.960 --> 00:26:07.880 critics are saying, yeah, we're shooting down, you know, flying lawnmowers 284 00:26:07.920 --> 00:26:14.599 with two million dollar interceptors. Yes, yes we are, Yes we are. 285 00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:19.559 That's what you do when you're not in a great power war with an 286 00:26:19.599 --> 00:26:26.039 industrial power. That's what you do when you're margin for error is zero. 287 00:26:26.279 --> 00:26:30.440 That's what it is. The margin for error for those ships in the Red 288 00:26:30.480 --> 00:26:34.920 Sea right now is zero. If you take it in the snot locker with 289 00:26:36.039 --> 00:26:41.000 a with a telephone pole sized surface to surface missile, your name is mud 290 00:26:41.039 --> 00:26:48.319 and you're gonna have to answer to a lot of justifiably angry parents and a 291 00:26:48.440 --> 00:26:56.119 chain of command. We don't have the luxury that we would have in a 292 00:26:56.160 --> 00:27:03.920 South China Sea scenario when you're getting literally scores of supersonic missiles being shot at 293 00:27:03.960 --> 00:27:10.839 you at one time. So yes, we are targeting in some cases modestly 294 00:27:11.039 --> 00:27:18.799 capable targets with increased with more capable interceptors. But that's what we have, 295 00:27:18.160 --> 00:27:23.480 that's what we've invested in, and that's what the margin of error gives us. 296 00:27:26.119 --> 00:27:30.559 Ultimately, what I hope is that we recognize that what we see in 297 00:27:30.599 --> 00:27:37.599 this petri dish of modern naval warfare is it wakes people up. It wakes 298 00:27:37.640 --> 00:27:42.240 people up. I was really happy to see the Surface Force Commander at SNA 299 00:27:42.319 --> 00:27:48.319 in January say he was unsatisfied with the pace of development of directed energy weapons, 300 00:27:48.400 --> 00:27:53.319 lasers and high powered microwave. Good on him, because you know, 301 00:27:55.559 --> 00:27:59.720 directed energy has been just around the corner for forty years and I'm tired of 302 00:27:59.759 --> 00:28:03.799 it. I'm tired of hearing about it. I want I want us to 303 00:28:03.920 --> 00:28:08.039 field proper directed energy systems, which we can. I mean, the Army's 304 00:28:08.039 --> 00:28:15.799 got a three hundred kilowatt laser on a truck in the desert. We can 305 00:28:15.880 --> 00:28:18.519 do this. We need we need people. We need someone like the Surface 306 00:28:18.519 --> 00:28:22.000 Force commander who has has taken this on to stand up and say I got 307 00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:29.200 this, and put a shoulder down and and make it happen over and let's 308 00:28:29.200 --> 00:28:32.880 talk about that in the in the finest traditions of the Naval Service. Because 309 00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:37.519 I've always thought that one of the reasons why we're having the success we have 310 00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:45.359 today is the way that AEGIS was developed and standard missiles were developed. There's 311 00:28:45.440 --> 00:28:51.880 almost a little I passively aggressively subtweeted a few people today. There there is 312 00:28:52.319 --> 00:28:55.559 a certain industry, especially in the in the water. The U S wimmen 313 00:28:55.680 --> 00:29:02.960 much more than I do of people who they they want to sell the above 314 00:29:03.079 --> 00:29:07.039 the fold, and they want to overpromise and under deliver the sexy, the 315 00:29:07.079 --> 00:29:10.960 sparky, the transformation, all the Aren't I smart? You know? Directive 316 00:29:11.079 --> 00:29:14.759 energy is kind of like railguns. There, they're going to be here the 317 00:29:14.799 --> 00:29:18.400 next palm cycle. We've heard that in the last twelve palm cycles it hadn't 318 00:29:18.440 --> 00:29:23.359 really happened. But with the development of aegis, we had a rear admiral 319 00:29:23.559 --> 00:29:29.720 who was in a job for a long time that put his shoulder into that. 320 00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:34.960 And I may be guilty of this that I've I've put Admiral Meyra up 321 00:29:34.960 --> 00:29:38.720 on a little bit of a pedestal there. But in many times, with 322 00:29:38.839 --> 00:29:44.079 the failures we speak we've seen, especially in the last few decades, I 323 00:29:44.079 --> 00:29:48.799 don't think enough people have looked back and said, look at how we did 324 00:29:48.839 --> 00:29:52.400 that, Why don't we do that until we do it better, then we 325 00:29:52.440 --> 00:29:59.200 can do something new. What characterized the position he has and is there have 326 00:29:59.400 --> 00:30:03.319 we just create a system where nobody can do that again, to have that 327 00:30:03.519 --> 00:30:07.440 one person who, as you said, is putting his shoulder into it and 328 00:30:07.799 --> 00:30:14.279 is longer than a twenty four to thirty six month PMS cycle. Well, 329 00:30:14.559 --> 00:30:19.160 what's interesting is you lay out the case of amal Meyer, But then there's 330 00:30:19.200 --> 00:30:29.559 also Rickover and there was another admiral who was in the ballistic missile program for 331 00:30:29.599 --> 00:30:33.960 a long time. I don't remember his name, but we see the Navy 332 00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:37.880 seems to have this desire for messiahs to come along and lead us out of 333 00:30:37.920 --> 00:30:44.839 the desert, and we found those messiahs when we needed them. I'd like 334 00:30:44.920 --> 00:30:51.640 to think that there is a system that will support us making incremental gains gains 335 00:30:51.640 --> 00:30:55.720 over time in the absence of a messiah, that the process just works because 336 00:30:55.720 --> 00:31:00.079 smart people are in it. But I do recognize the value of long term 337 00:31:00.160 --> 00:31:07.000 leadership at the top, stable leadership at the top. That's one thing that 338 00:31:07.839 --> 00:31:12.279 he just had was that there was Abramire pulling the strings. What Abermyer also 339 00:31:12.519 --> 00:31:21.079 had, though, was something that doesn't exist today, which was somebody writing 340 00:31:21.119 --> 00:31:33.079 the checks. Who who controlled the checks for manpower, maintenance, shipbuilding. 341 00:31:34.200 --> 00:31:41.440 The old OPPO three owned training he was. They so heard of these guys 342 00:31:41.480 --> 00:31:47.240 as the warfare barons. I think warfare barons undersooes them. They were warfare 343 00:31:47.359 --> 00:31:51.880 dukes or warfair princes. These guys were incredibly powerful there, and there were 344 00:31:52.519 --> 00:32:01.519 these partnerships between NAVC broadly understood and OPO three broadly understood that went on for 345 00:32:01.680 --> 00:32:07.599 years where the guy writing the check could move could could within his own program 346 00:32:08.200 --> 00:32:15.640 reallocate money and move it around in inventive ways and grab money to go over 347 00:32:15.880 --> 00:32:25.759 to capitalize interesting developments in aegist that doesn't exist anymore. Surface the Director of 348 00:32:25.799 --> 00:32:31.519 Surface Warfare does not have anywhere near the in ninety six, does not have 349 00:32:31.599 --> 00:32:37.240 anywhere near the budget authority that OPPO three had in nineteen eighty three. Admiral 350 00:32:37.319 --> 00:32:45.799 Doyle, Admiral Rodents Senior, those guys, they had immense amounts of money 351 00:32:45.839 --> 00:32:51.920 and the ability to and it was semi fungible within their within their purview. 352 00:32:52.279 --> 00:33:00.279 Rickover had Rickover had a ton of money. And I'm not just arguing for 353 00:33:00.319 --> 00:33:05.720 money here, I'm arguing over control of money. We have. We have 354 00:33:05.960 --> 00:33:12.079 so thoroughly parsed every part pot of money to affare thee will Uh and the 355 00:33:12.200 --> 00:33:21.519 and Congress and congressional staffers exercise eagle eyed authority over every line item because there 356 00:33:21.559 --> 00:33:28.240 is some buddy in Congress or someone on Capitol Hill or even within the Defense 357 00:33:28.240 --> 00:33:36.079 Department who is who wants that money to be managed so closely. We've changed 358 00:33:36.119 --> 00:33:42.119 the way that we financed this whole, this whole enterprise, so that it 359 00:33:42.200 --> 00:33:46.599 is harder even if the Messiah came along. I think it would be harder 360 00:33:46.599 --> 00:33:52.880 for the Messiah to do his job or her job because they don't have they 361 00:33:52.880 --> 00:33:58.960 can't pull the strings like they used to. This the surface Warfare the SWOW 362 00:33:59.039 --> 00:34:06.359 boss at at in San Diego, Admiral McClain, he runs the Surface Warfare 363 00:34:06.519 --> 00:34:14.480 Enterprise. But what he really does is he exercises convening authority and influence over 364 00:34:15.400 --> 00:34:22.480 the Naval Supply System Commander, the Naval Key Systems Commander, the p E 365 00:34:22.519 --> 00:34:30.760 O I W S. He he cannot order them to do anything, and 366 00:34:30.840 --> 00:34:37.760 so we we work together the best we can. We move the system along 367 00:34:37.880 --> 00:34:40.559 as best we can. But there are no messiahs, there are no people 368 00:34:40.559 --> 00:34:46.199 who can pull the strings. It is a harder environment to make change in. 369 00:34:46.920 --> 00:34:54.920 And we've done it to ourselves over. Yeah, if I were a 370 00:34:55.079 --> 00:35:00.719 Swow admiral, which sud of course never happened. But if I were one, 371 00:35:01.719 --> 00:35:08.880 I would be complaining about the way the uh the drones, the UAVs 372 00:35:08.920 --> 00:35:15.920 and u s v's and all the other v's and unmanned stuff that would be 373 00:35:15.920 --> 00:35:22.639 beneficial to my section of the of the Navy is being handled. I would 374 00:35:22.719 --> 00:35:27.519 want, like the Marines, I would like every ship to have some some 375 00:35:27.719 --> 00:35:30.840 say in what they want to carry as far as that kind of equipment, 376 00:35:30.280 --> 00:35:35.000 And I want them to use it and go out and play with it and 377 00:35:35.000 --> 00:35:37.519 and experiment with it, and then come back and say, well, you 378 00:35:37.559 --> 00:35:40.039 know, this works, just doesn't work. I don't want it to be 379 00:35:40.159 --> 00:35:47.840 driven by some air boss somewhere in the world who doesn't know what destroyers do 380 00:35:47.920 --> 00:35:52.079 and what they need or or what cruisers need. And I think when we 381 00:35:52.119 --> 00:35:55.880 don't, we don't. I don't think too many surface guys tell the the 382 00:35:55.960 --> 00:35:59.639 f A teen drivers, I know this is what you really need. Guys. 383 00:36:00.320 --> 00:36:05.159 I think that that stove piping is some of these things is a major 384 00:36:05.199 --> 00:36:07.280 problem. And when you talk about the funding, I think that's a huge 385 00:36:07.320 --> 00:36:13.599 part of the issue. Well, I need to whine a little bit here, 386 00:36:13.679 --> 00:36:19.920 so Sally, you can offer me some cheese. It has ever been. 387 00:36:19.920 --> 00:36:23.960 Thus, surface warfare is a bill pair, right, It's a bill 388 00:36:24.079 --> 00:36:36.000 pair for the submarine community, broadly understood because submarines submerge and surface with nuclear 389 00:36:36.039 --> 00:36:45.199 power plants, and this country cannot afford and talk about zero margin of risk, 390 00:36:45.760 --> 00:36:52.119 we cannot afford a reactor accident, We cannot afford to unsafely operate nuclear 391 00:36:52.119 --> 00:36:58.039 reactors. And so quite rightly, the submarine force is the lead pig on 392 00:36:58.159 --> 00:37:02.159 the teats. They get what they need right. The next is the aviation 393 00:37:02.280 --> 00:37:07.079 community. Why, because we can't have airplanes falling out of the sky. 394 00:37:07.280 --> 00:37:13.079 That's just that's just what we can't have it. And so we come down 395 00:37:13.159 --> 00:37:15.599 to the surface force, who gets plenty of money. Don't get me wrong. 396 00:37:15.800 --> 00:37:21.599 Surf force gets a billion dollars every year to do what it needs to 397 00:37:21.639 --> 00:37:27.880 do. But it's not enough, and it always comes behind the requirements for 398 00:37:29.079 --> 00:37:37.960 aviation, for specifically carrier aviation and for submarines. Nobody going to be n 399 00:37:37.039 --> 00:37:44.559 ninety six. Nobody in Admiral Pyle's job. That's not a surprise to any 400 00:37:44.559 --> 00:37:47.239 of them. They understand that everybody in surface warfare understands that you've got to 401 00:37:47.239 --> 00:37:50.559 make your case. You've got to come forward with facts, you've got to 402 00:37:50.599 --> 00:37:53.440 have data, you've got to make you've got to make the case. And 403 00:37:53.519 --> 00:38:00.880 so that's what surface warfare winds up doing is trying to do, you know, 404 00:38:00.920 --> 00:38:07.440 a very evidence based, analytically based approach to this is what we bring 405 00:38:07.599 --> 00:38:15.320 to the table, Here's what it's worth, here's what it costs. At 406 00:38:15.320 --> 00:38:19.800 the end of the day at n A and nine and the Vice Chief's office, 407 00:38:21.199 --> 00:38:24.519 those things have to get muscled in with all of the other needs. 408 00:38:24.599 --> 00:38:28.360 Right, we want, we need to, we need to build things, 409 00:38:28.400 --> 00:38:34.880 we need to have military construction, we need to we need to pay for 410 00:38:35.000 --> 00:38:42.440 all sorts of things. Military personnel costs are amazing. So I wish it 411 00:38:42.480 --> 00:38:46.159 were different. I wish surface warfare got more money and was considered more important. 412 00:38:46.840 --> 00:38:52.360 I'm hoping that what people are seeing in the Red Sea wakes some up 413 00:38:52.440 --> 00:38:55.039 to the fact that hey, this isn't this is a really important part of 414 00:38:55.079 --> 00:39:01.440 our peacetime global navy because what they're doing there, there's no declared war, 415 00:39:01.599 --> 00:39:07.519 there's no there we are this is what a peacetime navy is doing in a 416 00:39:07.639 --> 00:39:14.599 time of rested peace. That's the surface warfare. That's what surface warfare does. 417 00:39:14.920 --> 00:39:22.719 It's out there deterring, assuring, responding to crisis, and carrying out 418 00:39:22.880 --> 00:39:31.440 national policy every single day. Over one thing that that watching some of our 419 00:39:31.480 --> 00:39:37.079 allies try to do the same thing kind of creeped into my mind and is 420 00:39:37.199 --> 00:39:43.440 informed by your article. Is wanted to know who successfully made the argument because 421 00:39:44.039 --> 00:39:46.840 the green ice shre always coming after you when you have a ship. We 422 00:39:46.880 --> 00:39:50.800 need to save some money, so why don't we get rid of this system 423 00:39:50.880 --> 00:39:52.519 or that system? And as we talked about earlier on in the show, 424 00:39:53.599 --> 00:39:58.440 some of our arly burks who we will build to the crack of doom. 425 00:39:58.480 --> 00:40:02.199 We have ninety some odd either afloat or on order. Well we'll get over 426 00:40:02.239 --> 00:40:07.000 one hundred of visually, I'm quite sure. But some of these ships, 427 00:40:07.039 --> 00:40:09.079 in the course of a day they saw an anti ship cruise missile, they 428 00:40:09.079 --> 00:40:15.199 saw an anti ship ballistic missile, They had UAV attacks, even had some 429 00:40:15.280 --> 00:40:20.519 had surface attacks. And all these arly burks, depending upon the burkey hath 430 00:40:20.679 --> 00:40:25.800 you have SM two s M three, SM six EESSM missiles, You've got 431 00:40:27.280 --> 00:40:34.920 t LAM for your land attack, You've got that multi use five inch gun 432 00:40:35.000 --> 00:40:39.400 forward that everybody loves. And then you look at the Royal Navy, which 433 00:40:39.679 --> 00:40:45.320 is from an intestinal fortitude point of view, they always come out they they 434 00:40:45.639 --> 00:40:53.320 want to play. But there some pictures came out over the weekend of their 435 00:40:54.119 --> 00:40:58.159 HMS Diamond. I think it is one of their dairying class. They only 436 00:40:58.159 --> 00:41:04.159 have a half dozen comparable too in Arley Burke common However, they have significant 437 00:41:04.920 --> 00:41:07.480 budgetary problems that have for a long time, so their version of the Arly 438 00:41:07.519 --> 00:41:13.920 Burke does not have land attack cruise missiles. Their main gun does not have 439 00:41:13.960 --> 00:41:19.079 an anti air capability anymore because they decided to save money to no longer give 440 00:41:19.079 --> 00:41:22.920 it that ability. And as everybody does, they've got they in their case 441 00:41:22.960 --> 00:41:28.360 have to go all the way back to Gibraltar to reload. So what in 442 00:41:28.519 --> 00:41:34.719 the Arley Burke program do you think what it was that we were able to 443 00:41:34.840 --> 00:41:38.920 convince the builders and the people who are writing the checks excuse me, that 444 00:41:39.239 --> 00:41:45.719 yes, we're going to have a wide variety of missiles on this because we 445 00:41:45.760 --> 00:41:49.159 really don't know who we're going to fight, so we want to have enough 446 00:41:49.199 --> 00:41:51.559 tools in the box to be able to deal with it. I think that 447 00:41:51.639 --> 00:41:55.559 also is an important lesson when you look at a closest peer like the Royal 448 00:41:55.679 --> 00:42:05.199 Navy, how those decisions can really make a difference. Yeah, you know, 449 00:42:05.239 --> 00:42:10.559 we have we have these debates in uh in in fleet architecture, and 450 00:42:13.440 --> 00:42:20.480 one of the debates people love single purpose ships, right, people love mind 451 00:42:20.480 --> 00:42:28.360 sweepers, people like phms. They want us to they want us to build 452 00:42:28.360 --> 00:42:32.199 these ships that do one thing exquisitely. Well, because we used to do 453 00:42:32.280 --> 00:42:37.519 that. We used to have as part of our fleet a number of ships 454 00:42:37.880 --> 00:42:44.519 that were sort of single purpose ships. Well, there is a there's an 455 00:42:44.559 --> 00:42:49.239 incompressible and irreducible amount of give a dand that a navy has to do for 456 00:42:49.360 --> 00:42:52.320 every ship. You have to have people, you have to have grease, 457 00:42:52.480 --> 00:42:58.000 you have to have fuel, ammunition, food, All of that has to 458 00:42:58.039 --> 00:43:00.599 be carried on other ships. There have to be supply eyelines, there have 459 00:43:00.719 --> 00:43:02.719 to be depots, There have to be all of these things. There has 460 00:43:02.800 --> 00:43:13.519 to be a certain superstructure to support any class of ship. Therefore, it 461 00:43:13.639 --> 00:43:22.559 is almost always more efficient to have a ship that does multiple things rather than 462 00:43:22.679 --> 00:43:29.199 have multiple classes of ships to singular things. It catch me so far. 463 00:43:30.440 --> 00:43:35.320 So this is you know, one of the reasons why we have arly bird 464 00:43:35.360 --> 00:43:44.840 destroyers and just cruisers that have anti ship cruise missiles, anti land attack cruise 465 00:43:44.880 --> 00:43:50.639 missiles, surface to air missiles, hypersonic missiles. The I think technically the 466 00:43:50.800 --> 00:43:58.679 SM six is hypersonic harpoon missiles. They have over the side torpedoes, they 467 00:43:58.679 --> 00:44:06.000 have anti submarine rockets, they have Tota race ownars, a bow mounted sonar. 468 00:44:07.480 --> 00:44:15.119 What we did was we said, if we're going to create naval power, 469 00:44:15.800 --> 00:44:21.599 it's more efficient that those ships have multiple purposes and then we can have 470 00:44:22.960 --> 00:44:31.360 more efficient supply and support mechanisms. Then to create singular ships that have or 471 00:44:31.400 --> 00:44:39.840 ships that have singular emissions break. That explains why we have DDGs and cruisers 472 00:44:39.920 --> 00:44:45.719 like we have today. That explains why the FFG when it comes out at 473 00:44:45.760 --> 00:44:52.519 least Hall two will have most of those weapons, including a land attack variant. 474 00:44:52.920 --> 00:44:57.199 Is because if we're going to spend you know, a billion dollars a 475 00:44:57.280 --> 00:45:00.119 copy, we might as well get all of the things out of it. 476 00:45:00.519 --> 00:45:06.639 The Royal Navy has a much different problem to deal with, and that is 477 00:45:08.400 --> 00:45:15.039 they simply don't have the money or in my view, the will to do 478 00:45:15.280 --> 00:45:21.039 much different from what they are capable of doing now, and what they're capable 479 00:45:21.159 --> 00:45:29.000 of doing now is to put out a modest number of well of capable, 480 00:45:29.360 --> 00:45:37.199 well equipped chips that can do some things. But a ship that does what 481 00:45:37.480 --> 00:45:42.280 a modern E just cruiser or a modern AGES destroyer or a future DDG X 482 00:45:42.400 --> 00:45:45.639 does it's just beyond them right now because it would suck up far too much 483 00:45:46.280 --> 00:45:51.159 of their military budgets. So they have It's not that they couldn't do it, 484 00:45:50.719 --> 00:45:54.079 it's that they can't do it because they have other places their money needs 485 00:45:54.119 --> 00:46:01.199 to go over. Yeah, one of the concerns has been expressed, specially 486 00:46:01.400 --> 00:46:06.800 by by Wayne Hughes in the past. By building these ships that are so 487 00:46:07.000 --> 00:46:12.360 capable, the the loss of any one of those ships means that if you 488 00:46:12.440 --> 00:46:15.360 if you have to send your your d DP back to Guam to rearm, 489 00:46:16.440 --> 00:46:22.039 assuming WALM is still there, you've then taken you know, anti air, 490 00:46:22.320 --> 00:46:29.039 anti submarine, a tremendous asset that does all those things offline. And you 491 00:46:29.079 --> 00:46:30.920 know, that was one of the arguments that he was making in favor of 492 00:46:30.920 --> 00:46:35.840 of Yes, the d d g's great, the cruisers great, but also 493 00:46:36.519 --> 00:46:43.800 uh some single purpose uh smaller ships, the more expendable ships that would that 494 00:46:43.840 --> 00:46:46.280 would keep keep you uh you know if you lost when you didn't lose all 495 00:46:46.320 --> 00:46:52.320 the capabilities of a of a Burke class destroyer. So you know, the 496 00:46:52.400 --> 00:46:58.639 question then is I think one of the things that that I at the point 497 00:46:58.719 --> 00:47:01.519 I really liked your article where that you know, when you first got to 498 00:47:01.599 --> 00:47:07.599 the to your f f uh not. None of the components that the anti 499 00:47:07.639 --> 00:47:12.599 submarine, that missiles, the uh, the regular C I C stuff do 500 00:47:12.679 --> 00:47:16.239 not all communicate electronically. I mean he had an one to swear I was 501 00:47:16.239 --> 00:47:21.519 on we had this sonar guys yelling over to the radar guys, uh something. 502 00:47:22.000 --> 00:47:24.559 But uh, you know, the integration of all this stuff into a 503 00:47:24.639 --> 00:47:28.960 into a modern system, I think is one of the most important things that's 504 00:47:29.000 --> 00:47:31.239 been accomplished over the years. Talk a little bit about that and why why 505 00:47:31.280 --> 00:47:36.440 that is both a blessing and a curse if we lose one of these d 506 00:47:36.559 --> 00:47:43.480 d g s. We don't get me wrong, Like everyone else in this 507 00:47:43.639 --> 00:47:46.159 field, I have a great deal of respect for Wayne Meyer. I mean 508 00:47:47.199 --> 00:48:00.760 for you, just Wayne you sorry. When I've looked at you know, 509 00:48:01.119 --> 00:48:10.239 I've looked deeply at some of his fleet design ideas, and they have merit. 510 00:48:12.800 --> 00:48:17.679 One problem I've always had with Wayne uses fleet designs is that I think 511 00:48:17.679 --> 00:48:23.760 he is guilty of underestimating how much those ships cost. Number one, So 512 00:48:23.880 --> 00:48:31.800 the total cost of his fleet and total ownership costs are higher than he tends 513 00:48:31.840 --> 00:48:37.480 to give them, or have been higher than he tends to suggest. The 514 00:48:37.559 --> 00:48:43.960 problem, though, comes in the fact that we haven't been, for a 515 00:48:44.000 --> 00:48:49.639 long time, a war fighting navy. We've been a war deterring navy. 516 00:48:49.679 --> 00:48:54.719 We've been a put a bit of stick about navy. We've been a navy 517 00:48:54.760 --> 00:49:06.039 that protects and sustains global order and and our economy and security. And so 518 00:49:06.440 --> 00:49:13.559 when your navy is doing those things over time, and you and you have 519 00:49:13.599 --> 00:49:21.639 a certain amount of money available to spend on land based maritime patrol through through 520 00:49:21.639 --> 00:49:25.719 a vertical lift, new class of submarine, another new class of submarine, 521 00:49:25.920 --> 00:49:31.039 aircraft, carriers, surface ships. When you have all of these places to 522 00:49:31.199 --> 00:49:37.480 put your money, and when you look at your surface fleet, you then 523 00:49:37.559 --> 00:49:45.199 come back to it is it makes more economic sense for a fleet that is 524 00:49:45.239 --> 00:49:54.280 built both to fight and to influence. It makes more sense to build multi 525 00:49:54.360 --> 00:50:00.440 mission ships. Now that's not an argument for death stars, it's not an 526 00:50:00.519 --> 00:50:06.599 argument for you know, you could you could take this to the to its 527 00:50:07.039 --> 00:50:12.800 ridiculous extreme and think about, you know, some sort of a twenty five 528 00:50:12.840 --> 00:50:17.000 billion dollar death Star kind of ship, but having a certain number. I 529 00:50:17.039 --> 00:50:25.199 personally would like to see fewer large surface combatants and more numerous smaller surface combatants. 530 00:50:25.320 --> 00:50:30.079 That would I say more numerous. I think about the the f fg 531 00:50:30.719 --> 00:50:32.599 X class. I'd like to see, you know, I'd like to see 532 00:50:32.639 --> 00:50:37.159 US building four or five of those a year as soon as possible. I 533 00:50:37.199 --> 00:50:44.320 think building one and a half large surface combatants, but very very capable surface 534 00:50:44.360 --> 00:50:47.639 combatants, surface combatants with a SPY six radar to see with Block three, 535 00:50:49.039 --> 00:50:54.599 with with a integrated power system, with a with a series of directed energy 536 00:50:54.639 --> 00:50:59.280 weapons on them. I would like to see US rebalanced so that we have 537 00:50:59.440 --> 00:51:06.000 fewer large surface combatants and more numerous smaller surface combatants for essentially the same amount 538 00:51:06.000 --> 00:51:12.320 of ship building money a year. That's going to take an intellectual argument I 539 00:51:12.960 --> 00:51:20.440 make. I make that argument all the time to really influential people. I 540 00:51:20.519 --> 00:51:24.199 have not carried the day I want to build one and a half big ships 541 00:51:24.559 --> 00:51:30.039 and four smaller ships a year, rather than building two big ships and two 542 00:51:30.079 --> 00:51:32.360 smaller ships. A year, which means that I want to build five and 543 00:51:32.400 --> 00:51:37.599 a half ships for the same money it costs to build four ships, but 544 00:51:37.719 --> 00:51:42.320 that you would change the character of the surface force over time. I've made 545 00:51:42.360 --> 00:51:45.639 this argument, I haven't won it yet, and maybe before I hang it 546 00:51:45.719 --> 00:51:53.239 up, someday I can convince people. But for now we're kind of we're 547 00:51:53.280 --> 00:51:59.599 sort of stuck with building those big, the big multi mission ships. The 548 00:51:59.639 --> 00:52:06.360 thing and I think offers the most hope alter this is unmanned surface vessels. 549 00:52:07.239 --> 00:52:13.599 If we're going to build modestly capable surface vessels, we might as well not 550 00:52:13.639 --> 00:52:16.840 put people on them or have them mostly unmanned. And that to me makes 551 00:52:16.880 --> 00:52:21.679 a lot of sense. And I think we are starting to see some really 552 00:52:21.679 --> 00:52:27.360 good ideas in unmanned, medium, small, and and even a large surface 553 00:52:27.800 --> 00:52:35.079 A large unmanned surface vessel, which is essentially a quoting VLS magazine, we 554 00:52:35.199 --> 00:52:43.559 can take. We can we can offload those Wayne Hughes inspired wartime kinds of 555 00:52:44.599 --> 00:52:49.159 single mission platforms into the unmanned fleet, and I think we can do so 556 00:52:49.639 --> 00:52:57.599 within a more achievable total labigational authority over it. I would feel feel bad 557 00:52:57.639 --> 00:53:00.239 if I didn't, you know, quote your article one more time. For 558 00:53:00.559 --> 00:53:07.599 those that read the comments and some of the other commentary about what you wrote, 559 00:53:07.800 --> 00:53:10.559 it's been kind of funny how you've triggered people on a few topics that 560 00:53:10.719 --> 00:53:15.400 see the navalist sympathy for the devil type of speech, and one thing that 561 00:53:15.440 --> 00:53:19.480 nobody likes to throw a little love at that you do actually throw a little 562 00:53:19.480 --> 00:53:22.519 love at. I'll do a little quote here, and then I'd like to 563 00:53:22.559 --> 00:53:24.559 get expound on a little bit. It has to do with the defense budget. 564 00:53:24.840 --> 00:53:29.639 And this was towards the end of your article. It says, quote, 565 00:53:30.159 --> 00:53:32.440 it never ceases to amaze me want to hear people talk about the defense 566 00:53:32.480 --> 00:53:37.000 budget and this as if it were a certain number of dollars that would provide 567 00:53:37.039 --> 00:53:42.039 an optimal level of national offense. And this fantasy world, incredibly spart list 568 00:53:42.119 --> 00:53:45.119 crunch number. The Department of Defense creates a bill for the officer management and 569 00:53:45.159 --> 00:53:50.760 budget, and this bill is presented to the Congress, who pays it unflinchingly 570 00:53:50.840 --> 00:53:53.840 because of the obvious wisdom of the thinking that went into it. Not to 571 00:53:53.880 --> 00:54:00.400 mention the unquestioned non parochialism of the legislators involved. This is not how things 572 00:54:00.440 --> 00:54:06.320 are done. The inefficiency, the pork, the parochialism, the horse trading, 573 00:54:06.400 --> 00:54:13.599 the compromise, those are not bugs. This is a system. Tell 574 00:54:13.639 --> 00:54:21.119 everybody why they got it wrong? Do you do? You have that at 575 00:54:21.159 --> 00:54:23.639 hand so you can read the very next sentence. Oh sure, thing, 576 00:54:23.840 --> 00:54:29.440 it says right after. This is a system, and it's a system that 577 00:54:29.599 --> 00:54:35.039 drives defense spending. Because there are no point solutions, there will always be 578 00:54:35.159 --> 00:54:40.239 inefficiency. That inefficiency, inefficiency gets papered over by additional resources. Lather, 579 00:54:40.400 --> 00:54:49.199 rent, and repeat. You need to finish the rest of the paragram's I'm 580 00:54:49.199 --> 00:54:53.360 trying to. I have come to conclude that the closer we come to a 581 00:54:53.400 --> 00:55:00.480 perfect system of resource allocation, the farther away from representative democracy we will be. 582 00:55:02.079 --> 00:55:07.000 If we had an authoritarian government, if we had a king, we 583 00:55:07.079 --> 00:55:10.960 would be much It would be much easier to achieve the kind of defense budget 584 00:55:12.360 --> 00:55:19.239 that a number of critics of my article seem to think is possible. It's 585 00:55:19.239 --> 00:55:23.239 not possible. We can't allocate resources that way. We have five hundred and 586 00:55:23.280 --> 00:55:29.800 thirty five members of Congress, each of whom believes that they are, you 587 00:55:29.840 --> 00:55:37.719 know, venture capitalists. That's the way the system was created, and there 588 00:55:37.760 --> 00:55:45.639 will and there will always be inefficiency because of that compromise. There's never going 589 00:55:45.679 --> 00:55:52.599 to be perfect allocation of resources to strategy. And it just bothers me that 590 00:55:52.639 --> 00:55:59.760 I hear really smart people sometimes falling victim to the sense that that that not 591 00:55:59.800 --> 00:56:04.480 only not only is there a more perfect way to do it, which probably 592 00:56:04.639 --> 00:56:07.519 is, but that there is a perfect way to do this, which certainly 593 00:56:07.599 --> 00:56:16.000 isn't. We have to recognize that this is my favorite example. For the 594 00:56:16.079 --> 00:56:20.880 Navy to grow, more money is going to have to be spent on the 595 00:56:20.960 --> 00:56:27.079 Navy period, end of story. The only way the Navy is going to 596 00:56:27.079 --> 00:56:30.559 get more money is if the Army gets more money, and the Air Force 597 00:56:30.599 --> 00:56:32.440 gets more money, and the Marine Corps gets more money, and the Space 598 00:56:32.480 --> 00:56:39.559 Force gets more money. Not because that's the strategically smart thing to do, 599 00:56:40.199 --> 00:56:45.559 but because that's how our system works. We're not good at making that kind 600 00:56:45.599 --> 00:56:51.079 of point solution, that kind of hard strategic choice. We have people in 601 00:56:51.119 --> 00:56:54.840 congressional districts who build tanks who will say that's not a good idea. I 602 00:56:54.920 --> 00:56:59.559 need more money in order for me to vote for Europe. This that kind 603 00:56:59.599 --> 00:57:04.639 of log rolling, that kind of compromise, that's part of that is our 604 00:57:04.800 --> 00:57:10.719 system. Uh, And you know, I think, uh, I don't 605 00:57:10.719 --> 00:57:16.000 know. I think people low themselves into a into a sense of security thinking 606 00:57:16.039 --> 00:57:22.400 that if only we had more patriotic people or I'm sorry, I might I 607 00:57:22.480 --> 00:57:24.320 might embarrass some of our some of my hosts right now. If only we 608 00:57:24.400 --> 00:57:28.400 had term limits, it could throw the bums out every you know, every 609 00:57:28.440 --> 00:57:34.760 six years or whatever. It would almost never work that way. As long 610 00:57:34.800 --> 00:57:42.840 as we continue to have geographically distributed representation in the lower body of lower Chamber 611 00:57:42.880 --> 00:57:45.840 of Congress, and as long as states continue to send an equal number of 612 00:57:45.840 --> 00:57:52.639 representatives into the center Senate, which is going to stay until this country is 613 00:57:52.199 --> 00:57:58.719 conquered or ceases to exist, We're going to have this kind of inefficiency and 614 00:57:58.760 --> 00:58:07.199 we need to just recognize it. Yeah. During the during some research for 615 00:58:07.239 --> 00:58:13.679 this show, and I got a chance to look at the the Eisenhower School. 616 00:58:13.679 --> 00:58:15.760 I don't know if you're familiar with this, but they used to be 617 00:58:15.800 --> 00:58:19.840 the Army Industrial College I became the Armed Condustrial College. The Armed Forces now 618 00:58:19.880 --> 00:58:23.199 is known as the Dwight D. Eisenhower School for National Security and Resource Strategy, 619 00:58:23.840 --> 00:58:30.760 and it's it's its mission is to prepare select military officers and civilians for 620 00:58:30.840 --> 00:58:37.760 strategic strategic leadership and success in developing national security strategy and evaluating marshaling and managing 621 00:58:37.840 --> 00:58:40.920 resources and the execution of that strategy. And I said, there go, 622 00:58:42.320 --> 00:58:46.480 who who are these people? And do we ever see them? And that 623 00:58:46.840 --> 00:58:50.840 you look at your article, I think, and I don't. There's a 624 00:58:50.880 --> 00:58:54.119 disconnect between what these people think they're doing at the Eisenhower School and the name 625 00:58:54.159 --> 00:59:01.320 of a man who had that military industrial uh complex uh speech and and and 626 00:59:01.360 --> 00:59:07.159 what you just said about how the real world works. So talk about that 627 00:59:07.159 --> 00:59:12.400 a little bit. I am amazed. I talked. I talked to flag 628 00:59:12.400 --> 00:59:16.039 officers all the time. These are some of the These are brave men and 629 00:59:16.079 --> 00:59:23.119 women. These are people, and and they I wish they had a more 630 00:59:24.000 --> 00:59:30.920 sophisticated understanding of that system, because they would recognize that there is so there 631 00:59:30.920 --> 00:59:36.519 are so many people over there on Capitol Hill who want to help them, 632 00:59:36.960 --> 00:59:44.840 who want who want them to succeed. But I think sometimes because there are 633 00:59:45.000 --> 00:59:52.119 others over there who who are clearly antithetical to the Navy's interests, so who 634 00:59:52.199 --> 00:59:57.079 act antathetically to the Navy's interest they seem to think that all are but they're 635 00:59:57.079 --> 01:00:01.360 not there. There's a good bunch of people over there, especially in the 636 01:00:01.400 --> 01:00:06.039 in the committee and the committees that helped the Navy or that oversee the Navy. 637 01:00:07.400 --> 01:00:10.920 This is why you know, this administration sent you know, its first 638 01:00:10.960 --> 01:00:16.360 two budgets up to Capitol Hill and Congress added I think between forty and sixty 639 01:00:16.400 --> 01:00:22.159 billion dollars to each of those because there are interests up there that are different 640 01:00:22.159 --> 01:00:24.079 than the interest in the Pentagon. And that's the way the system works. 641 01:00:24.280 --> 01:00:32.239 And if the Navy, if if flag officers understood that system and appreciated it 642 01:00:32.320 --> 01:00:37.760 and exploited it, that's the word I'm going to use, is exploited it 643 01:00:37.800 --> 01:00:40.679 in a little more ill and more sophisticated manner. I think we'd be in 644 01:00:40.679 --> 01:00:46.559 a better place. Well, Brian, on that note, we've we've kept 645 01:00:46.639 --> 01:00:51.199 you for the full hour. I really appreciate you taking time this Sunday to 646 01:00:51.280 --> 01:00:55.159 chat with us. I would highly recommend everybody who's listening look at the show 647 01:00:55.239 --> 01:00:59.400 page and if you're catching the podcast, you'll find a link there as well. 648 01:00:59.719 --> 01:01:04.239 Link can go read Brian's article and some of the other stuff you're putting 649 01:01:04.239 --> 01:01:07.119 out. You also have your own substack, so if people would like to 650 01:01:07.199 --> 01:01:10.360 keep an eye on what you're working on. Where's a good place for them 651 01:01:10.400 --> 01:01:17.960 to keep their eyeballs and their computers looking. Obviously, your substack is a 652 01:01:19.039 --> 01:01:23.679 key place, because when I want to reach an influential audience quickly, I 653 01:01:23.840 --> 01:01:27.679 call you and I say, hey, you've got room for me, And 654 01:01:27.719 --> 01:01:31.320 I appreciate how often you say yes unflinchingly. Or you can go to my 655 01:01:31.360 --> 01:01:37.760 own substack, the Conservative Wahoo, where you can see where I sometimes write 656 01:01:37.760 --> 01:01:45.239 about the Navy and sometimes write about just life in these United States. Perfect 657 01:01:45.239 --> 01:01:47.400 well, I really appreciate it, Brian, And we're coming up on spring, 658 01:01:47.559 --> 01:01:52.480 so I hope the rest of twenty four works out well for you and 659 01:01:52.519 --> 01:01:55.679 yours, and I'll look forward to next time having a conversation. Thank you 660 01:01:55.800 --> 01:02:00.639 very much, Thank you very much, take care of Thank you, Brian, 661 01:02:01.280 --> 01:02:06.079 thank you, and thank you everybody for joining us for another edition in 662 01:02:06.119 --> 01:02:08.719 mid Rats. Until next time. I hope everybody has a great Navy day. 663 01:02:09.239 --> 01:02:25.480 Cheers, replied Paddy. Want to marry me and please a friend of 664 01:02:25.639 --> 01:02:35.679 be codily for you being to blame for love, telling all me sill faulding 665 01:02:35.960 --> 01:02:46.719 you the tame. It's a long way, it's a long way. It's 666 01:02:46.800 --> 01:03:15.159 a long way to the enmy go by be CONDI Well. Pediatric Associates isn't 667 01:03:15.280 --> 01:03:20.199 just a doctor's office. It's the traditions. My mom brought me here when 668 01:03:20.239 --> 01:03:22.760 I was a kid, and now I'm bringing my daughter here. It seems 669 01:03:22.840 --> 01:03:27.719 like these days doctor's offices are popping up everywhere, and then they're gone just 670 01:03:27.760 --> 01:03:30.599 as fast as they arrived. That's not for me. I need to know 671 01:03:30.639 --> 01:03:34.159 my doctor will be there for my kids today, tomorrow and the years from 672 01:03:34.199 --> 01:03:37.559 now. Since nineteen fifty five, Pediatric Associates has been here when you need 673 01:03:37.679 --> 01:03:43.159 us, with convenient locations near you, just visit us at Pediatric Associates dot 674 01:03:43.159 --> 01:03:47.039 com. Attention men and women, if you'd like to get your hair back, 675 01:03:47.159 --> 01:03:50.960 then you need to listen to some of our clients. John and Orange 676 01:03:50.960 --> 01:03:52.639 Park. Ain't yours shooting me? What was causing my hair loss? 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