1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:07,200 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,719 --> 00:00:12,039 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:16,000 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,239 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:24,719 murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 6 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:29,079 Kristin Dilley. My name is Kristin Dilley. I'm a writer, a researcher, 7 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,799 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media 8 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:37,880 manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in 9 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:50,399 crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Over Murder. I'm Kristin Dilley and 10 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:55,679 I'm Bill Thomas, and welcome to an episode that we're going to call ruminations 11 00:00:56,119 --> 00:01:03,599 with Bill and Kristen or like maybe antifications. I don't know, Okay, 12 00:01:03,799 --> 00:01:07,040 trying to come up I'm trying to come up with the right adjective, and 13 00:01:07,079 --> 00:01:08,760 I'm just not sure which it is, but between the two of us, 14 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:14,680 it could be one or the either of those words. What's the question we're 15 00:01:14,719 --> 00:01:19,359 asking today, the question that we're talking about, it's actually two questions, 16 00:01:19,359 --> 00:01:23,120 and it came as the result of two articles that I saw and decided to 17 00:01:23,359 --> 00:01:26,159 share with you, since because they were in my head, it's only fair 18 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:32,439 that they're in yours too, fair enough. So the first article was about 19 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:38,680 national shooter Audrey Hale and about whether or not the manifesto that she wrote should 20 00:01:38,719 --> 00:01:44,280 be released to the public after the behavioral analysis unit is done with it at 21 00:01:44,359 --> 00:01:49,280 Quantico. I do remember initially they had indicated, yeah, we'll release this, 22 00:01:49,799 --> 00:01:53,560 but the article basically said, actually, we're going to maybe walk back 23 00:01:53,599 --> 00:01:59,480 on that a little bit. And the question was should we be releasing this 24 00:01:59,519 --> 00:02:04,599 stuff for the general public to see? Of what value is there to see 25 00:02:04,799 --> 00:02:09,879 the I guess in some case rantings or ramblings of someone like James Holmes or 26 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:15,439 Eric Harrison, Dillan Cleebald, or in the most recent case, Audrey Hale. 27 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:17,560 And I'm realizing, as I'm saying most recent case, that's not the 28 00:02:17,599 --> 00:02:23,199 most recent mass shooting, and that's actually really sad too. Sadly what's happening 29 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:28,000 now is there are so many mass shootings in the United States, one after 30 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:31,919 another, that I know both of us get confused in terms of which one 31 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:38,080 are we talking about. And Nashville is not the latest mass shooting. We've 32 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:44,039 had several mass shootings since there's been an agreed upon definition that a mass shooting 33 00:02:44,199 --> 00:02:47,840 is someone who is shooting four or more people. And that's happening like every 34 00:02:47,879 --> 00:02:53,560 single week here in the US and nowhere else on the planet. And we 35 00:02:53,719 --> 00:02:58,919 have to keep coming back to that because there are guns around the world. 36 00:02:59,479 --> 00:03:04,280 There are crazy people and disturbed people and mentally ill people around the world, 37 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:08,400 some of whom might be violent, but there's nowhere else on the planet that 38 00:03:08,479 --> 00:03:15,360 we have this combination of guns and all of these other factors which are resulting 39 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:22,960 in a mass shooting every single week. It's crazy. The question of do 40 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:27,840 we release these manifestos, I think it's a valid question. I think it's 41 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:32,120 an important question now when we use the term manifesto. Of course, what 42 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:38,960 I think arises to everyone's mind is the Unibomber Manifesto, which our good friend 43 00:03:38,039 --> 00:03:43,039 Jim Fitzgerald has talked about at length, including a couple of episodes on this 44 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:46,680 podcast. I know when you and I were talking off air as we were 45 00:03:46,719 --> 00:03:51,560 kicking around this topic. We talked about the value of releasing the unibomb manifesto, 46 00:03:51,719 --> 00:03:54,759 largely because it helped to catch the guy. Let's talk about that for 47 00:03:54,800 --> 00:04:00,759 a minute, just as a reminder, the unibomber had been killing people for 48 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:04,400 I think close to two decades, if I'm not mistaken. From talking to 49 00:04:04,479 --> 00:04:11,680 Fits, they were still desperate to find this person, and the FBI had 50 00:04:11,719 --> 00:04:17,920 been attempting to track him for years. The thinking was that in publishing the 51 00:04:17,959 --> 00:04:24,360 manifesto in two major newspapers, The New York Times in the Washington Post, 52 00:04:24,399 --> 00:04:30,839 if I'm not mistaken, the idea was that perhaps someone would recognize the language, 53 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:35,399 which was very unique within this lengthy, kind of scholarly document with an 54 00:04:35,439 --> 00:04:42,920 anti technology slant. The hope was someone would recognize his language, and we 55 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:47,560 can't forget this. That's exactly what happened. Yes, now, Fits and 56 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:54,680 others within the FBI argued in favor of putting out the manifesto with this goal 57 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:57,439 in mind. Look, if we put this out, there's a possibility that 58 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:02,040 someone's going to recognize this language. Happens. His sister in law and then 59 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:08,120 her husband, Ted Kazynski's brother, both read the manifesto after it's published in 60 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:15,879 major newspapers, and they realize this really sounds like the dissertation and other scholarly 61 00:05:15,959 --> 00:05:20,639 type documents that Ted Kazynski had written. And then they contacted a lawyer who 62 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:27,040 contacted the FBI as an intermediary and said, my clients think they know who 63 00:05:27,199 --> 00:05:30,560 might be sending out these bombs, and people have been maimed and killed. 64 00:05:31,319 --> 00:05:38,000 So it's I think, very different in some ways. There was an idea 65 00:05:38,399 --> 00:05:43,000 which actually worked, which we think we might be able to identify this man 66 00:05:43,079 --> 00:05:48,439 and therefore hopefully capture him. That's a little different from these manifestos. And 67 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:53,480 I put air quotes around it that we're seeing from some of these recent mass 68 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:59,560 killers. When you look at mass shooters, even as early as Eric Harris 69 00:05:59,639 --> 00:06:03,360 and Jill in Clebald, the Columbine shooters, they had the Basement tapes, 70 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:10,399 which they were actually really hoping that those tapes would be released. They never 71 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:13,920 have been. And I believe you said before we went on the air they'd 72 00:06:13,959 --> 00:06:17,160 actually been destroyed, were they not? They were I'd heard about the Basement 73 00:06:17,199 --> 00:06:21,959 tapes before, which are a series of eight millimeter tapes they were shot on 74 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:28,720 cam quarters. Remember this is nineteen ninety nine Little Mini Gale. Yeah, 75 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:33,480 it sounds like a long time ago. Now. Apparently the sheriff in Colorado 76 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:41,800 made the decision to ultimately destroy the tapes with the support of the families who 77 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:46,000 had lost loved ones at Columbine High School. Coming up to speed again on 78 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:49,439 the Basement tapes. Hadn't read about them in a while. These two morons 79 00:06:49,519 --> 00:06:55,720 actually thought they were going to become famous, and they even discussed on the 80 00:06:55,759 --> 00:07:00,680 tapes who's going to play them in the movie and which filmmaker is going to 81 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:03,720 make a movie about them. I think the last thing we want to do 82 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:10,120 is be playing into the hands of these nut jobs who think this is going 83 00:07:10,199 --> 00:07:13,279 to be their way of going out in a blaze of glory by killing a 84 00:07:13,279 --> 00:07:16,120 whole bunch of people the idea. When I first read about the Basement tapes, 85 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:20,040 I was appalled just all the way around. And so you look at 86 00:07:20,079 --> 00:07:26,720 something like the Basement tapes, you look at something like James Holmes writing James 87 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:31,000 Holmes being the Aurora movie theater Shooter, we get a sense of what his 88 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:38,920 writings were from Carrie Drobben's book Aurora. That also is not something I think 89 00:07:39,319 --> 00:07:44,439 that should be floating out and about in the world. It is actually you 90 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:47,560 can read, James Holmes. I don't think it's really a manifesto. I 91 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:53,240 think it's just notebooks and I looked at the material in preparing for this broadcast, 92 00:07:53,879 --> 00:07:59,079 James Holmes, The Aurora Shooters notebook is just filled with the ravings of 93 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:03,839 a madman. He's just got the same word repeated over and over again on 94 00:08:03,519 --> 00:08:09,040 certain pages, why thirty or forty times just that word and a question mark. 95 00:08:09,639 --> 00:08:15,279 There are places where he does discuss a bit more kind of planning of 96 00:08:15,519 --> 00:08:18,639 where he's going to lash out and where he's going to kill people. He 97 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:24,519 considered airports, he considered a movie theater, and then finally he decided to 98 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:30,600 attack a movie theater because that's much more vulnerable, much less security. So 99 00:08:30,639 --> 00:08:35,039 there may be some benefit to law enforcement. I'm not actually sure there's any 100 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:41,039 public good though releasing these manifestos. Yeah, I think that it is one 101 00:08:41,039 --> 00:08:46,039 thing if you're a psychologist or a psychiatrist and you were looking to gain insight 102 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:50,279 into the criminal mind, and then absolutely the BAU would have a vested interest 103 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:54,600 in it. Psychologists would have a vested interest in it. But I don't 104 00:08:54,639 --> 00:09:01,360 think that it is something that needs to be broadcast for everyone to see now 105 00:09:01,639 --> 00:09:07,440 as humans who are very invested in true crime culturally right now in the United 106 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:11,600 States, Are people going to be interested in what Audrey Hale had to say 107 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:15,679 and why she decided to shoot up the Covenant School. Yes, probably people 108 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:18,480 are going to be very interested. But do they need to see a chapter 109 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:22,120 in verse in what is very likely the rantings of, as you said earlier, 110 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:26,159 a mad person. I don't think we need to see that. I 111 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:31,919 don't think we do. Audrey Hale is dead. She was shot to death 112 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:37,639 by Nashville at Fulton police officers responding to the mass shooting at the Covenant School. 113 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:43,000 She's not going to go on trial. In some of these examples, 114 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:50,000 like James Holmes, the Aurora shooter, he actually went on trial, and 115 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:54,440 so these materials were introduced as part of the legal proceeding, which is how 116 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:58,799 they ended up in the public now that you actually don't learn that much in 117 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:05,519 James Holmes example, and we don't know what's in Audrey Hale's notebooks. Apparently 118 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:09,919 she was incredibly organized and had all of these files and just a lot of 119 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:15,279 material. I think that would probably be worth as you said a moment ago, 120 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:22,120 Kristen, law enforcement profilers, the FBI, the Nashville Metropolitan Police Department, 121 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:28,240 the Department of Justice, those people studying to see what's going on with 122 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:35,240 mass shooters of this type, And what was Audrey Hale thinking before she made 123 00:10:35,279 --> 00:10:39,320 the decision to go in and shoot up a school that she'd actually attended some 124 00:10:39,399 --> 00:10:46,480 years and killed both students and teachers and administrators there. I'm not sure there's 125 00:10:46,519 --> 00:10:50,039 really much public benefit to that. No, I don't think there is. 126 00:10:50,399 --> 00:10:54,879 Again, I think that as a culture, we are very fascinated, sometimes 127 00:10:56,200 --> 00:11:00,799 healthfully so, with what goes on in the minds of killers. Think that 128 00:11:01,039 --> 00:11:05,600 if the benefit is to law enforcement and law enforcement alone, absolutely they should 129 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:09,720 have access to it. But do the rest of us need to know the 130 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:13,919 murky, dark things that are happening in the minds of the Eric Harris and 131 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:16,919 Dylan Cleibold's of the world. I'm going to sleep a whole lot better if 132 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:20,120 I don't know that, I think. And as you mentioned when we were 133 00:11:20,159 --> 00:11:26,120 off the air to Kristen, some of the experts regarding the Cleibold Harris Basement 134 00:11:26,159 --> 00:11:33,240 tapes had said they didn't want to see those released because They also talked in 135 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:37,000 quite a bit of depth about their planning, what they went out and purchased 136 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:43,159 in order to have weapons and explosives, what materials they purchased. They even 137 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:48,519 videotaped themselves on the way to and from the various stores where they bought these 138 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:54,600 things. They were buying civilian items and then working to turn those into explosive 139 00:11:54,639 --> 00:11:58,480 devices with some success. And as you pointed out, one of the law 140 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:03,879 enforcement expert said, this actually is a roadmap for someone who might want to 141 00:12:03,919 --> 00:12:09,799 commit a similar crime. Yeah, it's a blueprint for any teenage copycat that 142 00:12:09,919 --> 00:12:15,720 decides they want their ten minutes of fame the same way that Harris and Clebald 143 00:12:15,759 --> 00:12:20,159 got theirs. I don't think there's any reason why things like that need to 144 00:12:20,159 --> 00:12:22,879 be released to the public. Now. If you read, for example, 145 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:26,960 Dave Cullen's Columbine, which is an excellent book, he does offer excerpts and 146 00:12:28,039 --> 00:12:31,600 things like that, and that's fine because that is it is all part of 147 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:35,799 the narrative. But what I want to see what they put out there into 148 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:39,759 the world, released for everybody to read it. No, not at all. 149 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:43,200 I don't think there's value to that, and it is just It is 150 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:46,240 just a roadmap. Like you said, it's a blueprint for the next person 151 00:12:46,279 --> 00:12:50,080 who wants to have notoriety to pick it up and go. You know what, 152 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:54,720 that sounds like a great idea, Let's go. There are transcripts available 153 00:12:54,080 --> 00:13:01,080 of the Dylan Clebald Eric Harris basement tapes, word for word what was said 154 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:05,120 by these two individuals in the interests of everyone's mental health, and I'm talking 155 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:09,440 about the collective of the Big Wei here. Yes, I don't know that 156 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:11,600 we really need to see this stuff. Now. There may be people that 157 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:22,000 are studying criminology psychology, they may want access to transcripts of this series of 158 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:28,720 eight millimeter tapes the Columbine High School shooters made, but they don't need to 159 00:13:28,759 --> 00:13:33,000 see the tapes themselves. And I think what the sheriff was trying to do, 160 00:13:33,039 --> 00:13:35,879 and as I mentioned, he had the full support of the families. 161 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:41,799 They were perfectly fine with destroying the tapes because who wants to see those two 162 00:13:41,919 --> 00:13:48,799 losers forever boasting about what they were about to do. They shot these tapes 163 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:56,039 over weeks, including just shortly before they actually committed the heinous acts that they 164 00:13:56,080 --> 00:14:01,519 brought to Columbine High School that day. As we both know, there's so 165 00:14:01,639 --> 00:14:05,480 much interest now in true crime. There's a lot of material that tends to 166 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:11,559 leak, so it ends up just all over the place. And of course 167 00:14:11,639 --> 00:14:15,559 this wondrous tool, the Worldwide Web, that we all use and we're using 168 00:14:15,759 --> 00:14:22,080 as we record this podcast, it also allows for very quick distribution of often 169 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:28,240 extremely disturbing material that most of us don't need to see. One of the 170 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:33,200 things that I remember very clearly from one of the crime cons that we went 171 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:37,080 to in the last couple of years, I think it was New Orleans. 172 00:14:37,679 --> 00:14:41,480 They have a tendency to blend together because they're all action packed and with a 173 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:46,559 lot of information, but what they do I think I think this was New 174 00:14:46,639 --> 00:14:50,639 Orleans. It was Chris Darden speaking. Was that New Orleans? It was 175 00:14:50,679 --> 00:14:54,080 a pretty amazing and I think that was New Orleans. Yes, So I 176 00:14:54,159 --> 00:14:58,519 remember that he was doing his excellent presentation, which really was phenomenal, a 177 00:14:58,559 --> 00:15:01,799 great speed, Yeah he is. But I remember that in his power point 178 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:09,960 he included very graphic, unedited crime scene photos from the Nicole Brown Simpson and 179 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:16,039 Ron Goldman murders, and I remember thinking, oh, Man, and I 180 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:20,960 never wanted to see those. I didn't either, and at the same time, 181 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:26,039 I didn't recall those ever being shown publicly before. No, they weren't. 182 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:28,720 To the best of my knowledge, they weren't. And that's the sort 183 00:15:28,759 --> 00:15:33,200 of thing that there are people out there who, when they learn about this 184 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:35,519 case for the first time, they go, oh, let's see if there 185 00:15:35,519 --> 00:15:39,080 are crime scene photos, the same way that there are people who google the 186 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:45,879 manson crime scene photos. And people have contacted me and they've actually asked me 187 00:15:46,279 --> 00:15:50,320 for copies of the Colonial Parkway murders crime scene photos which were leaked by the 188 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:58,039 FBI about thirteen or more years ago, and I'm going to share them with 189 00:15:58,279 --> 00:16:02,480 oddball people that I've never met. There are times when I don't know what 190 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:06,240 to say other than no. Yeah. The number of times we've had that 191 00:16:06,279 --> 00:16:10,000 request is a little alarming. It's like, where do you get that the 192 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:14,639 idea that might be an actual, okay request to make to the brother of 193 00:16:14,679 --> 00:16:18,799 a victim. I mentioned to you at one point I was contacted by someone 194 00:16:18,799 --> 00:16:25,759 who was purporting to put together a museum about serial killers and they wanted something 195 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:30,879 of my sisters Alcatrazis. I think it was Yeah, why in the world 196 00:16:30,919 --> 00:16:34,360 would you think that was an okay thing to ask, and I've expressed some 197 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:40,360 regret here on Mind over Murder at different times, we actually didn't end up 198 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:44,519 with very much of the things that belonged to Kathy. I'm not a big 199 00:16:44,519 --> 00:16:48,159 believer that things are important, but there are times when I think I would 200 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:52,720 have liked a few more little momentos that would have reminded me of Kathy. 201 00:16:52,759 --> 00:16:55,639 And I think in retrospect, we made a bit of a mistake. We 202 00:16:55,639 --> 00:17:00,720 were in a kind of purging, giving away, boxing and and shipping it 203 00:17:00,759 --> 00:17:04,799 off somewhere mode, mostly driven by my parents, which I understand, but 204 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:10,720 I have regret now that, for example, we threw away hundreds of letters 205 00:17:10,759 --> 00:17:15,359 and cards that were sent by Kathy's friends, many of them from the Naval 206 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:21,559 Academy and from the Navy, and they were lovely and they contain funny stories 207 00:17:21,599 --> 00:17:26,880 and things that made them really love and care about Kathy. And my parents 208 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:30,720 decided we needed to get rid of them, I think because perhaps they felt 209 00:17:30,759 --> 00:17:33,480 that they were too painful. Now my brothers and I are sorry, because 210 00:17:33,519 --> 00:17:37,759 we think it would be really lovely to have those things. I'm not saying 211 00:17:37,759 --> 00:17:41,480 I'd look at them every day or every week, but it'd be nice to 212 00:17:41,519 --> 00:17:47,599 have them in a box somewhere. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's odd 213 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:55,400 and sometimes disturbing the way people will ask for things that are incredibly personal and 214 00:17:55,559 --> 00:18:00,680 often highly disturbing, and expect, for example, to be to read the 215 00:18:00,799 --> 00:18:07,279 rantings of an obviously crazy person, or watch these videotapes recorded by these two 216 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:11,279 killers. And with regard to the crime scene photos, Bill and I have 217 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:15,680 both seen them, they are not things that we want to see. Again, 218 00:18:17,599 --> 00:18:21,480 it's just not. I'm sure that there are people out there who are 219 00:18:21,519 --> 00:18:23,799 like, they're interested in it, They're invested in the case, they want 220 00:18:23,799 --> 00:18:29,160 to know more. Please believe me, you do not want to see what 221 00:18:29,319 --> 00:18:33,920 was done to these victims. You just don't because once you see it, 222 00:18:33,519 --> 00:18:37,319 as you've said a number of times, Bill and I can say too, 223 00:18:37,759 --> 00:18:41,519 you can't unsee it. It's not out of your head ever, It's there. 224 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:44,160 It's there when I close my eyes, it's on the back of my 225 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:48,759 eyelids. You can't unsee it. For every person who reaches out and is, 226 00:18:48,799 --> 00:18:51,559 hey, can I see the crime scene photos, it's you don't want 227 00:18:51,559 --> 00:18:55,000 to do that to yourself. You just don't. No, And on some 228 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:57,519 level, I think to myself. I'm going to give you a polite answer, 229 00:18:57,599 --> 00:19:02,799 even though I don't feel like giving you a polite answer, because for 230 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:06,079 people to say, oh, I want to see the crime scene photos because 231 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:11,079 I'm interested. Are you serious? It would be another thing if it was 232 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:17,880 a law enforcement officer or somebody in behavioral analysis, someone that had a legitimate 233 00:19:18,039 --> 00:19:22,480 reason to want to study the crime scene photos. But for the most part, 234 00:19:22,519 --> 00:19:25,839 those people already have access to them. And even when you and I 235 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:29,039 started working together, it was a bit of a balancing act for me to 236 00:19:29,039 --> 00:19:33,680 try to figure out, Okay, what details are appropriate for me to ask 237 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:36,759 and what are not, And so for the first couple of years, it 238 00:19:36,839 --> 00:19:41,000 was always me prefacing conversations with if you don't want to answer this, you 239 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:45,319 don't have to. But and it You've always been very generous. All of 240 00:19:45,319 --> 00:19:49,799 the family members have been very generous about sharing things and insights that are deeply 241 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:56,240 personal. But it was really only within the last year that I saw those 242 00:19:56,240 --> 00:20:00,200 crime scene photos and I wish to god I hadn't. I know, they're 243 00:20:00,279 --> 00:20:04,160 very disturbing. You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back after 244 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:14,720 this word from our sponsors. We're back here at Mind over Murder. Among 245 00:20:14,759 --> 00:20:18,720 the articles that you shared with me over the last week or so as we 246 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:23,319 were discussing putting this podcast together was a very powerful article from The New York 247 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:30,279 Times. It was a magazine story from April twentieth, twenty twenty three. 248 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:34,759 Will link to this in the show notes. I urge all of our listeners 249 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:38,759 to read this story, and of course The New York Times is not behind 250 00:20:38,759 --> 00:20:45,559 a paywall, thankfully. This article is incredibly powerful and moving. It focuses 251 00:20:45,599 --> 00:20:55,000 on three investigators who worked on the Sandy Hook shooting in two twelve in Sandy 252 00:20:55,000 --> 00:21:00,839 Hook, Connecticut, where twenty six people were murdered, and it's a very 253 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:03,279 powerful article. I don't think most of us will be able to get through 254 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:07,839 without shedding a few tiers. Oh yeah. But they talked about the impact 255 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:15,640 that working that crime scene with twenty six victims, what that was like for 256 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:23,480 these pretty hardened professional people, but also people with hearts and souls and minds 257 00:21:23,519 --> 00:21:27,640 that, like you said, can't turn the images that they've seen off. 258 00:21:29,559 --> 00:21:33,920 They went home to their families and really struggled. They mentioned that there are 259 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:41,279 fourteen hundred and ninety five photos. That's almost fifteen hundred photos of the crime 260 00:21:41,319 --> 00:21:48,240 scene from Sandy Hook, most of which are so horrifying they've never been shown 261 00:21:48,319 --> 00:21:53,160 to the public, and they talked about being obligated to show them to Eric 262 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:57,000 Holder, who was then the Attorney General of the United States, and a 263 00:21:57,079 --> 00:22:07,119 group of FBI agents and behavioral analysis people. Just the reaction of those individuals, 264 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:11,680 and these are trained law enforcement people who've seen a lot, maybe have 265 00:22:11,839 --> 00:22:15,640 seen it all, as we have said, many of them also had military 266 00:22:15,839 --> 00:22:21,559 experience and had seen combat. A number of people in this article actually said 267 00:22:21,599 --> 00:22:26,400 that the crime scene photos from Sandy Hook were worse than anything they'd ever seen, 268 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:33,200 even in combat. The slug line for this it's very evocative, and 269 00:22:33,279 --> 00:22:40,400 it's just two sentences. They saw the horrific aftermath of a mass shooting. 270 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:47,519 Should we It's a very powerful question, it is. It was an extremely 271 00:22:47,559 --> 00:22:52,839 powerful article. As you said, I cried quite a few times quite a 272 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:57,039 bit while reading it. It does bring up a very interesting point. While 273 00:22:57,039 --> 00:23:03,920 we don't want to encourage the rantings and ravings of people who just want to 274 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:10,759 get true crime famous by releasing the manifestos of mass shooters, should we be 275 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:18,079 doing more to make sure that people understand the outcome of mass shootings. There's 276 00:23:18,079 --> 00:23:21,759 a lot of angles for this. Can we do that while still being respectful 277 00:23:21,799 --> 00:23:25,359 to the victims? I don't know. I'm not sure that you can do 278 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:30,519 that when it's something like Sandy Hook, when you've got twenty six victims and 279 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:33,880 most of them are children? How do you do that? But at the 280 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:37,680 same time to be perfectly honest. And I remember exactly where I was when 281 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:41,359 I heard about Sandy Hook. I was actually in the front office at my 282 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:45,279 school where I teach now, and I remember thinking, if slaughtered children does 283 00:23:45,319 --> 00:23:48,799 not make this country change its stance on gun violence, I don't know what 284 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:53,359 will. And the answer clearly is not bad. I'd have to agree, 285 00:23:53,480 --> 00:24:00,319 and my personal axis is always going to bend towards respect for them. Yeah. 286 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:04,240 I have a concern, however, and I think you're touching on this, 287 00:24:04,799 --> 00:24:10,640 which is for us as a society. If we don't actually see the 288 00:24:10,759 --> 00:24:15,880 damage and the physical damage that's being done by weapons of war. And I'm 289 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:22,759 not talking about a standard handgun here, I'm talking about AR fifteen style weapons 290 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:30,799 or the Bushmaster rifle that was used by the shooter in Sandy Hook. If 291 00:24:30,839 --> 00:24:36,920 we don't actually see some of the physical damage. On some level, we're 292 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:42,920 being shielded, protected from the carnage that's happening in these mass shootings. I 293 00:24:44,039 --> 00:24:48,480 was shocked. I remember this happening, but I'd forgotten or perhaps blocked it 294 00:24:48,559 --> 00:24:56,720 from my mind that sixteen little kids had crowded into the bathroom, which was 295 00:24:56,799 --> 00:25:02,480 three feet by four feet, and we're all sh to death in that completely 296 00:25:02,519 --> 00:25:07,319 conbined space. They weren't even able to fall to the ground. The investigators 297 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:14,559 who had to work that crime scene for days were so horrified by what they'd 298 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:22,119 seen and what that shooter and what that gun did to those little children to 299 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:27,319 the point where they weren't even recognizable as human beings. The level of just 300 00:25:27,839 --> 00:25:33,880 shocking injury to these little, tiny kids is something that is going to hunt 301 00:25:33,039 --> 00:25:40,039 these people, all of these investigators, the medical examiners, everyone that worked 302 00:25:40,039 --> 00:25:45,880 this case for the rest of their lives. I'm actually wondering if there's got 303 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:51,400 to be a way for us to come to understand how much damage is being 304 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:56,880 done to these victims and to us as a society by these endless mass shootings. 305 00:25:57,799 --> 00:26:03,640 Right after the Nashville Covenant School shooting, it was either the evening of 306 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:08,720 or the day after, the Washington Post made what I think was a pretty 307 00:26:08,759 --> 00:26:17,039 bold step, and they produced a piece called the Blast Effect. It shows 308 00:26:17,279 --> 00:26:23,000 what AR fifteen rounds due to the human body when it blasts through tissue, 309 00:26:23,039 --> 00:26:27,359 bones, and organs. And they did it in a way that's very interesting. 310 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:32,920 They did not use crime scene photos, but they did some like three 311 00:26:33,039 --> 00:26:37,640 D modeling are every time you scrolled up on the screen, there would be 312 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:41,880 a picture of a just effect simile of a human body, no features or 313 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:48,640 anything like that, and it would show the pattern of injuries obtained by They 314 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:55,079 chose two people from two school shootings. They picked a child from Sandy Hook 315 00:26:55,359 --> 00:27:00,519 and they picked a student who was killed at Parkland. They had gotten permission 316 00:27:00,559 --> 00:27:04,480 from both of these children's parents to use the injuries that happen to their kids 317 00:27:04,519 --> 00:27:11,039 as part of this article. They basically showed in real time, when a 318 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:15,720 child gets hit with six rounds from an AR fifteen, this is what happens. 319 00:27:17,319 --> 00:27:19,720 And I actually I want to quote this thing from the Washington Post really 320 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:25,359 because Washington Post printed a justification for why they did this, and so I 321 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:29,839 want to quote from them real quick. The catastrophic damage the bullets from AR 322 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:36,119 fifteen's cause inside human bodies is rarely made public in detail. News organizations do 323 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:41,279 not generally publish graphic autopsy or crime scene photos because the images could be viewed 324 00:27:41,319 --> 00:27:47,920 as dehumanizing, exploitative, and traumatizing, or could inflict further pain on the 325 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:52,720 families of victims. As a result, the damage AR fifteen fire can due 326 00:27:52,759 --> 00:27:56,160 to a human body a great deal more than handguns is not widely understood. 327 00:27:56,799 --> 00:28:00,200 When we set out to chronicle the story of the our fifteen in America, 328 00:28:00,279 --> 00:28:04,480 we searched for ways to illustrate the effect on bodies in an unflinching but respectful 329 00:28:04,519 --> 00:28:10,200 manner. We recognize this presentation may disturb readers, but we determine the information 330 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:14,200 it contains is crucial to the public's knowledge, and then it goes on from 331 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:18,960 there. I like the fact that they did too things here that they acknowledged. 332 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:22,319 We realize what it would do to these families to show these crime scene 333 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:27,559 photos, but we also acknowledge that we have to make people aware of what 334 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:33,000 happens when you hit the human body with this many high velocity rounds. The 335 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:40,039 story definitely was divisive. I had a friend who posted it on Facebook and 336 00:28:40,079 --> 00:28:44,640 then she edited her post to say, actually, you know what, I'm 337 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:48,079 taking this link down because I don't want people to click on it and be 338 00:28:48,119 --> 00:28:51,480 traumatized. But I am going to tell you why you should read it. 339 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:53,559 So she didn't provide the link, but she did say, here's the information. 340 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,359 Here's how you can google it and find it, but I'm not going 341 00:28:56,400 --> 00:29:02,000 to link it because it's very setting. Like she described how upset she got. 342 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:07,559 It's an interesting conundrum, but ultimately I think Washington Post deciding to produce 343 00:29:07,599 --> 00:29:11,880 that piece. It was upsetting, absolutely, but it was brave and it 344 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:18,359 was necessary too. I think the article The Blast Effect ran in the Washington 345 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:22,720 Post on March twenty seventh, twenty twenty three. Before people complain that the 346 00:29:22,799 --> 00:29:29,960 Washington Post is hidden behind a paywall, this article is available for free on 347 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:33,519 the Washington Post website. I just reconfirm that. And the reason that they 348 00:29:33,599 --> 00:29:37,599 did that is because they want people to see this article. Now you can 349 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:42,039 read the material or not, but we're going to link to it. The 350 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:48,559 information is available, and it is an extremely powerful and, as you said, 351 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:53,319 Kristen, disturbing article. But I think this information needs to be out 352 00:29:53,359 --> 00:29:59,640 there because for us to go through one mass shooting after another. Particularly now 353 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:03,359 we have this whole series of mass shootings that schools and churches and synagogues and 354 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:11,880 mosques and dance schools and just on and on, and yet we don't ever 355 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:18,440 see much evidence of what actually transpired in these mass shootings. We're just seeing 356 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:25,039 articles and we see pictures of the first responders and ambulances and the fronts of 357 00:30:25,119 --> 00:30:30,519 buildings. We see the Uvalde Elementary School, but we don't see inside, 358 00:30:30,559 --> 00:30:34,480 and we certainly don't see the damage that's been done to the buildings, to 359 00:30:34,599 --> 00:30:40,960 the community, and most importantly to the people. I can already anticipate because 360 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:45,440 we get blowback whenever we talk about guns and gun violence and mass shootings, 361 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,759 and there are people who don't want to hear it. They don't want to 362 00:30:48,759 --> 00:30:53,960 hear it from us. As a teacher who deals every day with the disturbing 363 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:59,519 realities that come with having guns in the school and with mass shooting to being 364 00:30:59,559 --> 00:31:03,559 a regular thing, this is something that is constantly on my mind. And 365 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:06,839 as Bill is the brother of a murder victim, we've got a lot of 366 00:31:06,839 --> 00:31:11,000 credibility wrapped up in this issue. When we talk about the idea of authentic 367 00:31:11,079 --> 00:31:15,640 reporting and reporting what is right. We talk about ethics and true crime. 368 00:31:17,039 --> 00:31:19,559 I think that not only do we have a right to talk about this, 369 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,920 I think we have the responsibility to talk about it as true crime podcasters, 370 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,759 as journalists. Friend laughed at me the other day, he was like, 371 00:31:26,759 --> 00:31:32,640 you're not a journalist. Okay, fine, but I am here podcaster. 372 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,640 Yeah, I am a podcaster, and I have a forum. We have 373 00:31:36,759 --> 00:31:40,319 a forum, and we have the right to speak about it, and more 374 00:31:40,359 --> 00:31:42,640 importantly, we have the responsibility to speak about it. So are we going 375 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,599 to get blowback for this episode? Yeah? Probably, we always do. 376 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:49,559 I think if anybody has the right to speak out about it, it's people 377 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:55,599 who live it. Within the true crime space. We have always tried to 378 00:31:55,640 --> 00:32:00,240 be very respectful of the fact that our listeners come from a wide variety of 379 00:32:00,279 --> 00:32:04,519 backgrounds. First of all, you're all over the country, you're all over 380 00:32:04,599 --> 00:32:09,759 the world. Politically, it's the gamut from our most conservative friends to our 381 00:32:09,799 --> 00:32:15,039 most liberal friends, and lots of stops in between. I don't even know 382 00:32:15,079 --> 00:32:19,640 why I feel I need to say this. Understand, no one's coming for 383 00:32:19,759 --> 00:32:24,920 your guns. We're not proposing that anyone take away your guns. But if 384 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:30,079 we as a country don't figure out how to do something. We're headed down 385 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:37,319 a road here that is so excruciatingly painful and divisive. We've got to figure 386 00:32:37,319 --> 00:32:43,160 out a way for kids to be able to go to school safely. And 387 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:45,880 then, as I was mentioning all those other categories, and I'm just scratching 388 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:52,359 the surface, you can't go anywhere now without being worried that you're going to 389 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:58,039 be gunned down by a crazy person with an automatic weapon. Let me read 390 00:32:58,079 --> 00:33:01,799 from the ap for a moment. The US is setting a record pace for 391 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:08,079 mass killings in twenty twenty three. We're playing the horror on a loop roughly 392 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:15,200 once a week. So far this year, the carnage has taken eighty eight 393 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:22,640 lives in seventeen mass killings over one hundred and eleven days, each time the 394 00:33:22,759 --> 00:33:30,200 killers wielded firearms. Only two thousand and nine was marked by as many such 395 00:33:30,319 --> 00:33:37,160 tragedies in the same period of time. Eighty eight lives seventeen mass killings in 396 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:43,839 the first hundred and eleven days of this year. This is insane and we 397 00:33:44,079 --> 00:33:49,920 can't keep doing this. We've got to figure out something. If people want 398 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:54,400 to say that we're falling off the Planet lefty tree huggers. That actually is 399 00:33:54,440 --> 00:34:01,440 true when it comes to me, and I'm not embarrassed about that. But 400 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:05,960 at the same time, we understand a lot of the people that we work 401 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:09,639 with in law enforcement are coming at this from a much more conservative perspective. 402 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:15,719 I am respectful, and I know, Kristen you are too, of our 403 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:20,880 friends and family that are coming at this from perhaps a more conservative, perhaps 404 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:27,280 even pro gun point of view. But I don't think it is bomb throwing 405 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:30,760 in any way, shape or form to say we have to do something together 406 00:34:31,159 --> 00:34:38,639 to figure out how to address this issue, and arming teachers isn't even a 407 00:34:38,679 --> 00:34:45,159 serious suggestion, so let's not even bother to go there. But do think 408 00:34:45,199 --> 00:34:49,559 we need to take steps and work together. And if people want to say 409 00:34:49,599 --> 00:34:53,320 that we're communists or whatever, quite frankly, it probably means you don't know 410 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:59,559 what you're talking about. All we're saying is we think we need to do 411 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:04,599 something, and we need to do something now. One of the other things 412 00:35:04,639 --> 00:35:07,480 that also came up when I read this piece, but particularly the New York 413 00:35:07,519 --> 00:35:14,639 Times piece about the incredibly brave law enforcement personnel who had to deal with the 414 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:20,440 carnage at Sandy Hook, we need to be doing more as a country to 415 00:35:20,519 --> 00:35:25,679 address for the first responders and the families victims, helping them get past the 416 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:32,039 trauma that comes with living with something like this. Whether it's responding to sixteen 417 00:35:32,119 --> 00:35:37,840 young children crowded into a bathroom who have been shot to death, or whether 418 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:43,480 it's a family member who has lost one person in their family to gun violence, 419 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:46,239 we still, I think, need to be doing better as a country 420 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:50,559 in terms of how can we support you, how can we help you? 421 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:54,239 This is hard stuff to live through, and Bill, I know you can 422 00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:59,639 attest to that. And I never signed on for this. I'm not in 423 00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:02,239 law enforcement. I'm not an investigator. I'm not a cop. I have 424 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:07,440 tremendous respect for our friends in law enforcement that do these jobs that many of 425 00:36:07,519 --> 00:36:12,039 us wouldn't have the heart to do. Me included, I would not be 426 00:36:12,119 --> 00:36:15,480 able to do this kind of gig now, not at all. And so 427 00:36:15,559 --> 00:36:22,320 whether it is all of us maybe learning a little bit more about trauma response 428 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:25,599 and how to better help people who have been in a traumatic situation, or 429 00:36:25,639 --> 00:36:31,800 whether it's going a step bigger and reforming healthcare in this country so that mental 430 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:37,519 health is not stigmatized and so that we have more options in terms of getting 431 00:36:37,599 --> 00:36:43,159 therapy or counseling or whatever the heck else it is that you need once you've 432 00:36:43,199 --> 00:36:45,559 had to deal with this. I think that's another step we need to take 433 00:36:45,559 --> 00:36:50,480 as a country. If we're going to deal how this level of violence, 434 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:54,199 we need to figure out a way to support the people who have been impacted 435 00:36:54,199 --> 00:36:59,719 by it. That goes from me as someone who has been a victim of 436 00:37:00,559 --> 00:37:04,360 you, who is the brother of a murder victim. I can't think of 437 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:08,559 a single person that I know within the true crime space who either hasn't been 438 00:37:09,119 --> 00:37:14,760 in some way, shape or form touched by crime. I'm not advocating that 439 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,599 we all get together and sing Kumbaya around a fire or anything like that, 440 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:22,440 but I'm also thinking that probably wouldn't hurt for everybody to sit down and have 441 00:37:22,559 --> 00:37:28,519 a therapy session or something like that. Altogether, it is hard to deal 442 00:37:28,559 --> 00:37:31,639 with. It is rough. The thing that nobody tells you when you deal 443 00:37:31,679 --> 00:37:35,000 with this, And again I know you can attest to this bill, especially 444 00:37:35,039 --> 00:37:37,440 if you don't sign up for it, is you don't suffer just one time. 445 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:42,960 It's not something that happens and then magically you wake up and you're better 446 00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:46,119 you deal with it over and over again every single day. Your family's dealt 447 00:37:46,159 --> 00:37:52,320 with it for thirty five years. I can't even imagine. As we steer 448 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:57,360 this episode to a close, I just want to summarize where I am, 449 00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:00,679 and then I'd like to hear Kristen if at the same place or not. 450 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:07,159 We've always committed by the way that we don't have to agree on every little 451 00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:10,760 thing. I like the fact that we have different perspectives. I'll put this 452 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:15,800 out from my point of view. Your mileage may vary. In thinking about 453 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:24,039 these two issues for today's podcast, should law enforcement be releasing manifests those of 454 00:38:24,079 --> 00:38:29,840 this type? In thinking about it, I think the answer for me is 455 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:37,320 no. Interestingly, the related question about whether or not we should be seeing 456 00:38:37,679 --> 00:38:45,119 more evidence of what's happening physically to our victims in these mass shootings, as 457 00:38:45,159 --> 00:38:49,559 long as we can do this in a way that's respectful of victims and victims 458 00:38:49,679 --> 00:38:52,559 families. And I know this is a hard one. I actually think we 459 00:38:52,599 --> 00:38:58,960 may want to be thinking about finding ways to allow people to see the horrific 460 00:38:59,199 --> 00:39:04,760 damage it's being done by these weapons of war. So I'm actually leaning towards 461 00:39:05,119 --> 00:39:13,719 perhaps allowing some limited public and media viewing of what is actually happening to these 462 00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:17,280 victims, because I think people would be shocked, and what I hope would 463 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:24,039 happen is they would be galvanized into taking active steps to do something about gun 464 00:39:24,119 --> 00:39:30,679 violence here in the US. I'm with you on I'm like ninety five percent 465 00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:36,280 of that. I do agree that. Yes, the manifestos, the rantings, 466 00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:37,679 the rabings, so whatever you want to call it from mass shooters, 467 00:39:38,039 --> 00:39:40,840 we don't need to be putting that out there. Are we going to be 468 00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:45,079 curious about what was Saint Audrey Hill's NERT books? Yeah? Absolutely? But 469 00:39:45,159 --> 00:39:49,440 do we need to see it? No. If the FBI says, hey, 470 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:52,119 we don't want to release it because we don't think it's a good idea, 471 00:39:52,159 --> 00:39:53,960 and I'll respect your opinion, we probably don't need to release it. 472 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:59,480 We don't need to see it. The crime scene photo issue is harder because, 473 00:39:59,519 --> 00:40:01,840 as you said, it would have to be done respectfully. I'm not 474 00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:06,599 sure what that would look like. So I'm always a little hesitant to agree 475 00:40:06,599 --> 00:40:09,719 to something without knowing in full how would this look. I'm all about playing 476 00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:13,440 in an organization, and I don't like agreeing to things if I don't know 477 00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:15,599 how it's going to work out in terms of wake up calls might be a 478 00:40:15,639 --> 00:40:21,119 good one, but the cynical part of me is afraid and does not want 479 00:40:21,159 --> 00:40:23,920 to see what would happen if people looked at that and we're like, I'd 480 00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:28,400 still rather have my gun, and I know that there would be people who 481 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:31,119 would react that way, and I don't know if my bruised little heart can 482 00:40:31,159 --> 00:40:36,880 take that. I don't know that I could deal with that, especially from 483 00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:40,039 people that I know and love who are they like their guns, protective of 484 00:40:40,039 --> 00:40:43,719 their guns, and I've told them I'm not the mean liberal here to take 485 00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:45,960 away your gun. You can have your gun, and I'm fine with that. 486 00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:51,039 I don't know how I would feel if someone that I really truly loved 487 00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:53,480 saw those crime scene photos and said, you know it, that doesn't matter 488 00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:57,880 to me, because it matters to me. I find myself in a really 489 00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:02,960 weird place right there. The appropriate it compromise might actually be articles like the 490 00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:08,840 blast Effect in the Washington Post, which managed to be descriptive and informative without 491 00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:15,840 necessarily being horrifically graphic because they were illustrations. Yeah, we'll recommend the New 492 00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:22,159 York Times article and the Washington Post articles as both very much worth our listener's 493 00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:27,159 time. I would also add to that, if you know that this is 494 00:41:27,199 --> 00:41:30,639 something that is going to greatly upset you, then please use your own best 495 00:41:30,679 --> 00:41:35,599 discretion and don't put yourself through something that you don't feel like you have the 496 00:41:35,639 --> 00:41:38,840 emotional capacity to handle. Right then, I definitely wish that I had waited 497 00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:43,039 a day or two before I looked at the Washington Post article. It was 498 00:41:43,119 --> 00:41:45,880 very necessary, it was something that I needed to see, but I didn't 499 00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:50,760 have good dreams that night. It stayed there in the back of my head 500 00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:53,639 and all I ended up having that night was gun related nightmares. So know 501 00:41:53,840 --> 00:42:00,119 where you're at and where you're coming from before you embark on these particular articles, 502 00:42:00,599 --> 00:42:04,800 and if you need to use discretion, I would say air on the 503 00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:08,119 side of using discretion, I think we should steer to a close. That's 504 00:42:08,119 --> 00:42:12,880 going to wrap it up for ruminations with Bill and Kristen. We've got to 505 00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:16,039 come up with a better title for this, I think. But I feel 506 00:42:16,079 --> 00:42:19,519 like this is what you would get if you were to ask the two of 507 00:42:19,599 --> 00:42:23,079 us to coffee. We would talk about these things. We would do it 508 00:42:23,079 --> 00:42:27,719 with a caffeinated beverage and maybe a scone or two. But this is what 509 00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:30,400 you would get if you had Bill and I for coffee. Hopefully this has 510 00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:36,880 at least been a slightly illuminating experience for you. As you were saying that, 511 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:40,320 I thought to myself, we could change it from ruminations to disturbing thoughts 512 00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:47,480 with Kristin vill disturbing conversations with Kristin and Bill, disturbing but necessary conversations with 513 00:42:47,559 --> 00:42:52,039 Kristin and Bill. We'll figure out some sort of title for this, but 514 00:42:52,119 --> 00:42:54,239 we do hope that you have enjoyed spending a little bit of time with the 515 00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:57,599 two of us today. If you like what we're dealing with the podcast, 516 00:42:57,639 --> 00:43:00,320 please do you make sure that you leave us a five star rating and review 517 00:43:00,559 --> 00:43:04,280 on any of your podcast platforms. Do you check us out on social media? 518 00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:07,639 And we do still have merchandise by the way over at Tea Public, 519 00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:10,360 Please do feel free to buy some mind Over Murder merchandise. We love seeing 520 00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:15,320 you at Crime Con in various other places in that march. It's going to 521 00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:19,159 do it for this episode of mind Over Murder. We'll see you next time. 522 00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:32,960 Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. 523 00:43:34,519 --> 00:43:38,480 Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by 524 00:43:38,559 --> 00:43:45,000 Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod. Mind Over Murder is 525 00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:50,159 distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, 526 00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:53,519 Twitter, or Instagram. You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 527 00:43:53,599 --> 00:43:59,239 Murders on Facebook, and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 528 00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:04,440 Bill Thomas. Five six. Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.