1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:07,280 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:12,080 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,039 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,280 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:24,760 murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 6 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:29,120 Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 7 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,840 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media 8 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:37,880 manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in 9 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:50,039 crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly and 10 00:00:50,079 --> 00:00:54,560 I'm Bill Thomas, and we're thrilled to be joined today by Carol Cassello, 11 00:00:54,799 --> 00:00:59,600 journalist and true crime podcaster. Carol, thank you for joining us today, 12 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:07,439 Murder. Oh. I'm still getting used to the true crime pod connect things. 13 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:11,680 I'm so thrilled to be on your show. Thank you for inviting me. 14 00:01:11,359 --> 00:01:15,680 We are so thrilled to have you. Can you start just by telling 15 00:01:15,719 --> 00:01:22,040 anyone who's unfamiliar. A little bit about yourself and your professional background. Oh, 16 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:26,439 man, I was a professional journalist for thirty five years, which seems 17 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:29,640 incredible to me. For twenty of those years I spent at CN, where 18 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:34,760 I was a national correspondent and anchor, and I love CN And I know 19 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:37,920 it's in a precarious state right now, but a lot of good people over 20 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:40,400 there. But I did enjoy my career there and I learned a lot. 21 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:47,239 I left in twoenty eighteen, and I teach journalism at Loyal and Marymount University 22 00:01:47,439 --> 00:01:52,519 and I also produce a true crime podcast. I also have created a program 23 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:57,599 for student journalists to cover the presidential election of twenty twenty four with an emphasis 24 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:01,280 on civil discourse. So they're out there work right now, Ravo. I 25 00:02:01,519 --> 00:02:07,760 love that. That's fantastic, And I've read how many presidents you have interviewed. 26 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:10,719 It's a lot. You've really had a lot of FaceTime with people who 27 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:15,919 are holding the office of president or would like to hold the office of president. 28 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:19,639 So that's kind to be an interesting program in and of itself. Oh 29 00:02:19,759 --> 00:02:25,080 yeah, I covered what five or six presidential elections and inaugurations, and I 30 00:02:25,159 --> 00:02:29,199 worked for the Wolf Flitzer Show for a while, so I was a political 31 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:32,520 reporter, which was very interesting. In twenty sixteen, I covered politics quite 32 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:37,319 extensively, which was really interesting. Yeah, but I do. It's hard 33 00:02:37,319 --> 00:02:42,400 to say that you enjoy covering politics, because that's not exactly the right word. 34 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:46,479 But it's always fascinating because it really gives you a sense of the state 35 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:50,680 the country's in, and I find that to be amazing. Let me ask 36 00:02:50,759 --> 00:02:54,680 a question, then, would you rather cover hard news than political stuff? 37 00:02:55,599 --> 00:03:00,919 I consider politics hard news because it's just, you know, it should be 38 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:05,560 serious, it should have meaning. It shouldn't just be about the insults of 39 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:08,199 politicians trade. It should have a deeper meaning. So I always tried to 40 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:13,520 concentrate on that kind of political reporting. When I was a young reporter coming 41 00:03:13,599 --> 00:03:17,080 up through local, I always covered crime. I had the court beat and 42 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:21,719 the police beat. So I went down to the police department every morning and 43 00:03:21,759 --> 00:03:24,479 I went through the police reports, and then if a big crime would happen, 44 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:29,520 I would cover the case from the investigation stage through the trial. So 45 00:03:29,599 --> 00:03:32,479 I did that when I was a local reporter, and I became an investigative 46 00:03:32,479 --> 00:03:37,759 reporter when I hit Washington, DC, and I did all kinds of stuff 47 00:03:37,759 --> 00:03:42,319 then, which was interesting. I know, I'm asking what is probably a 48 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:46,719 massively complex question to answer, but let's go ahead and give it a shot. 49 00:03:46,759 --> 00:03:51,759 Here. Over the course of this amazing journalistic career that you've had, 50 00:03:51,919 --> 00:03:55,280 you have covered a lot of stories. Are there any ones that jump out 51 00:03:55,319 --> 00:04:01,280 at you immediately as being so compelling you feel thrilled and privileged to have covered 52 00:04:01,319 --> 00:04:05,199 them? Oh? So many. The one that's the end that really stands 53 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:09,240 out to me, oddly, there was a young reporter who was shot to 54 00:04:09,319 --> 00:04:12,439 death while she was doing a live report on television. Oh yeah, it 55 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:16,079 was Roanoke. I remember that, Yes, Allison Parker. Yeah Parker. 56 00:04:16,519 --> 00:04:19,680 We covered that in real time, which is very difficult as an anchor. 57 00:04:19,879 --> 00:04:25,160 It's really difficult. And I could so relate to that because it reminded me 58 00:04:25,199 --> 00:04:30,120 of me back in the day. And her father saw my reporting Andy Parker, 59 00:04:30,199 --> 00:04:35,040 Yeah, yeah, and we became acquaintances. He appeared on my show 60 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:41,879 a lot, and I'll always remember he approved of our coverage and of my 61 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:46,360 coverage of the event. I always appreciated that about him. And then he 62 00:04:46,399 --> 00:04:49,040 went through such a rough time because people can be really cruel, and he 63 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:54,079 became an applicant for gun control and all that stuff. He's still active in 64 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:58,120 that area. Fought to get those images of his daughter off the net, 65 00:04:58,319 --> 00:05:01,959 which wasn't easy, right. That story really stands out in my mind for 66 00:05:02,079 --> 00:05:05,639 many reasons. And then the other story that of course affected me was the 67 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:11,199 subject of my podcast blind Rage, which I covered as a young reporter, 68 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:16,639 where this woman was carjacked, rape repeatedly. Her attacker blinded her so she 69 00:05:16,639 --> 00:05:20,439 couldn't identify him. He tied her up and put her in the car and 70 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:24,639 set the car on fire, and off he ran. And somehow this woman 71 00:05:25,399 --> 00:05:29,319 found the will to survive, and not only that, but the will to 72 00:05:29,519 --> 00:05:32,879 become a part of the investigative team investigating our case. And then she became 73 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:38,920 an advocate for the victims of sexual assault in the blind So that story stuck 74 00:05:38,959 --> 00:05:43,519 with me for thirty years, and I kept in touch with Phyllis Coddle off 75 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:47,160 and on for all of those years until she died. So, yeah, 76 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:53,279 Phillis's story, which is unbelievably dramatic, and even when you give us the 77 00:05:53,439 --> 00:05:58,199 capsule version of what happened to her, we're both wincing because it's just such 78 00:05:58,199 --> 00:06:01,720 a difficult thing to listen to as well as for you to report. It 79 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:05,560 seems like that one was one that just stayed with you. And so when 80 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:09,639 you decided I'm going to do a true crime podcast, I want to tell 81 00:06:09,639 --> 00:06:13,439 Phillis's story. Yep, it wasn't the other way around, though. It 82 00:06:13,519 --> 00:06:17,079 wasn't I need to start a podcast in order to tell Phyllis's story. I've 83 00:06:17,079 --> 00:06:20,319 always wanted to tell Phyllis's story, and I started to write a book, 84 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:24,439 and you just don't have time because I was working, and it just so 85 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:29,639 happened when I retired, podcasting was it, And what a great way to 86 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:33,680 share such an impactful story. I think the reason that Phyllis's story stuck with 87 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:38,439 me is I covered that case when I was twenty two years old. Wow. 88 00:06:38,519 --> 00:06:42,639 Now I was doing like none, like none, and I was tasked 89 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:46,279 with trying to get an interview from a victim of trauma, especially that kind 90 00:06:46,319 --> 00:06:49,240 of trauma. I was tasked with covering that sort of crime that I didn't 91 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:54,040 think was even possible for that kind of evil to walk the earth, and 92 00:06:54,079 --> 00:06:58,439 then to figure out the investigative process and how to get information, and then 93 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:01,839 the trial. I was learning in real time and I was dealing with people's 94 00:07:01,879 --> 00:07:06,920 emotions while learning in real time, and I made mistakes, and I think 95 00:07:06,959 --> 00:07:11,360 that's part of the reason that story stuck with me as well. You were 96 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:14,839 pretty much fresh out of Kent State at that point, weren't you. I 97 00:07:14,879 --> 00:07:19,240 was a senior in college. Wow, it was crazy. How old would 98 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:24,160 Phillis have been at the time of her attack. She was forty four, 99 00:07:24,519 --> 00:07:27,680 so it's like my mom, right, Yeah, she must have picked up 100 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:30,920 on immediately on the fact that you were a CUB reporter. With all due 101 00:07:30,959 --> 00:07:38,560 respect, she never said that, and that's I think Phyllis was such an 102 00:07:38,639 --> 00:07:46,120 unusual person. She actually she probably secretly welcomed that because she found a way 103 00:07:46,199 --> 00:07:50,160 to manipulate the media for her own ends. Phyllis was amazing that way. 104 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:55,560 So I'm not sure she would tell me even if she felt that, because 105 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:59,199 she would say, oh, my young mind, that would be Phyllis. 106 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:05,079 How do you make your journalistic objectivity when you're covering a story that is so 107 00:08:05,279 --> 00:08:09,079 personally affecting and personally moving. I don't know that I'd be able to what's 108 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:13,720 interesting because when and I'll go back to that beginning with Phyllis, she was 109 00:08:13,759 --> 00:08:18,959 a very sympathetic victim. You just rooting for her, right. The man 110 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:22,959 who attacked her, Samuel Herring, was a bad dude, really bad. 111 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:26,480 It never occurred to me, as a young reporter to try to figure out 112 00:08:26,639 --> 00:08:33,480 why what made him that way is that's a really personal, unusual crime to 113 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:37,679 porpetrate on a stranger because he didn't know Phyllis. I asked myself today, 114 00:08:37,039 --> 00:08:43,159 why didn't I go back and investigate his background? He committed his first crime 115 00:08:43,159 --> 00:08:46,759 at the age of eleven. How does it happen that he gets no psychological 116 00:08:46,799 --> 00:08:48,559 help through all of those years. How does it happen that he goes to 117 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:52,080 prison again and again and has let out early. I never did any of 118 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:58,039 those stories. I only covered it from the emotional aspect, which was Phyllis's 119 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:01,799 story, because that's the story that I'm going to sound really crass, but 120 00:09:01,879 --> 00:09:05,519 that's the story that sells. As I think back on that now, I 121 00:09:05,639 --> 00:09:09,320 was not objective, but no one complained about it because it was a good 122 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:15,440 story. So it's incredibly hard to be objective. I don't believe any reporter 123 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:18,840 is truly objective. I think that's impossible. The things that happen to you 124 00:09:18,879 --> 00:09:22,240 in your own life effect the way you tell stories, how you put things 125 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:26,519 in order in the story affects how the story is perceived. So you try 126 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:28,720 your best, But it took me a long time to learn that when you 127 00:09:28,759 --> 00:09:33,919 cover emotionally, just like nine to eleven, was it possible to be truly 128 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:39,960 objective during that No, it wasn't, and I wasn't, and by then 129 00:09:39,039 --> 00:09:43,960 I was really experienced, So it's really difficult. Yeah, I love what 130 00:09:43,039 --> 00:09:46,960 you just said about the way that you tell a story is affected by how 131 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:50,360 you feel, because that's exactly what I teach my kids in my ap Lang 132 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:56,120 course. And it's so nice to hear it affirmed from somebody that I'm not 133 00:09:56,200 --> 00:10:00,559 just spouting teacher lybias. It's actually true. It works in the real world. 134 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:05,080 It is actually true. Do you think your employers would have given you 135 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:09,240 the real estate to explore those other issues? The things that you're mentioning, 136 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:15,399 Carol are really important. How does this guy start out his criminal behavior at 137 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:20,360 age eleven and end up going into jail, getting out early, reoffending over 138 00:10:20,399 --> 00:10:24,840 and over again. It is a fascinating question about how that happens. Do 139 00:10:24,879 --> 00:10:26,840 you think they would have said, oh, sure, go ahead, put 140 00:10:26,879 --> 00:10:31,679 in a bunch of time on that, because isn't Phyllis really the sympathetic person 141 00:10:31,759 --> 00:10:35,240 that we can all identify with. It's the there but for the grace of 142 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:39,720 God, go I when you hear her story, Oh yeah, yeah. 143 00:10:39,759 --> 00:10:43,159 And I worked for a very tiny TV station at the time, so they 144 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:48,279 probably would not have allowed the freedom for me to do that. They were 145 00:10:48,279 --> 00:10:52,440 concentrating on the fear in the community. How do you keep this from happening 146 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:54,360 to you? So I did a lot of women defense stories and stuff like 147 00:10:54,399 --> 00:10:58,159 that, and then you tried to find Phyllis's friends and her family to talk 148 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:03,879 about it and maybe get an interview with Phyllis. My concentration was all that 149 00:11:03,919 --> 00:11:07,919 way, and the search for evidence to catch this guy. Go down to 150 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:11,200 the police department and establish sources so that you can find out what's happening and 151 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:16,200 beat everyone else to the punch. So you're right, at that time, 152 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:18,960 in that place, in that station, they would have not said, oh 153 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:22,159 yeah, go find out about the perpetrator. By that time, I think 154 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:26,360 it was such a horrible crime that the entire city just wanted to just recort 155 00:11:26,519 --> 00:11:30,279 us. I don't really care about this person. Don't tell me about this 156 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:35,759 person. I just want him to go away forever. In hindsight that I 157 00:11:35,759 --> 00:11:39,600 don't think that was the right choice. As a journalist, we would do 158 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:41,919 that now at of right, But there's a con and I'll ask you about 159 00:11:41,919 --> 00:11:46,240 this, So there's a controversy about that. We've had an incredible number of 160 00:11:46,279 --> 00:11:50,399 school shootings and at one point when I was at CNN, we decided never 161 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:54,919 to use the alleged perpetrator, the alleged shooter's name, right, yes, 162 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:58,360 And we really wouldn't talk about that person very much. And that always bothered 163 00:11:58,399 --> 00:12:01,799 me because to me, you have to understand and you have to know, 164 00:12:03,279 --> 00:12:07,480 and you have to be transparent about what happened in its entirety. And I 165 00:12:07,519 --> 00:12:09,639 don't know where the good line is. So I'll ask you, guys that 166 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:15,240 where do you think that is? We both talked about it on the air 167 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:20,960 at Mind of a Murder, because obviously we're coming at this from a victim, 168 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:26,399 friend and family perspective, and we try to be very victim focused. 169 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:31,720 We don't usually identify the offender, although sometimes once or twice. In other 170 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:35,679 words, you have to be clear who it is you're talking about. And 171 00:12:35,799 --> 00:12:39,960 these days, sadly, what incident are you discussing, because there's been so 172 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:46,799 many, but we both lean away from any kind of glorification, which we 173 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:50,519 think is a serious problem in the true crime space. The Washington Post did 174 00:12:50,519 --> 00:12:54,279 a cover story on a few years ago in the Washington Post magazine about me 175 00:12:54,519 --> 00:12:58,799 going to Crime Con, which is a conference that Kristin and I have attended 176 00:13:00,159 --> 00:13:03,279 spoken at numerous times now. I think there's been five of them. Kristin. 177 00:13:03,799 --> 00:13:07,720 Yeah. One of the things that I found disturbing, and Kristen shares 178 00:13:07,759 --> 00:13:11,759 this point of view, and I'll let her speak about it, is that 179 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:16,279 there were people at crime Con. There's five thousand plus fans there who are 180 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:20,799 interested in true crime, consume a lot of true crime media, as well 181 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:24,240 as reporters and investigators and family members. There's a lot of very interesting people 182 00:13:24,279 --> 00:13:28,759 there. The thing we found disturbing was people walking around with T shirts with 183 00:13:28,879 --> 00:13:35,879 serial killers faces on them. So, in a sense, they're glorifying Ted 184 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:41,039 Bundy and all of these other sleeve balls who have done terrible things to people, 185 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:45,679 and we think that the focus is in the wrong place. Kristin, 186 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:50,480 what do you think we've leaned away from too much focus on the offenders? 187 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:52,960 Yeah, No, I agree with that. I remember my very first day 188 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:58,320 at Crime con almost from minute one, I was very disturbed and upset by 189 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:03,600 the fact that I past a woman who had ted Bundy's face tattooed on her 190 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:09,759 inner forearm, and it was like, that's definitely not the reason why we 191 00:14:09,799 --> 00:14:13,879 should be here. I do think that we have reached a spot within the 192 00:14:13,919 --> 00:14:20,399 true crime space where definitely there is glorification of killers that needs to be stop. 193 00:14:20,799 --> 00:14:24,200 The focus does need to be on the victims, for sure, Carolin, 194 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:28,320 get your point absolutely that, like you do have to explore both sides 195 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:31,399 of the story, and if it comes with something like school shooting, and 196 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:35,320 of course that's something that's on my mind a lot because I am a teacher. 197 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:37,960 Every day of the working year, I go into my school and wonder 198 00:14:39,159 --> 00:14:41,120 is this going to be the day? And so I think it is important 199 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:45,639 to be able to at least acknowledge this was the impetus behind this. But 200 00:14:45,759 --> 00:14:48,120 do we need to say their name. No, not after the first time. 201 00:14:48,279 --> 00:14:54,639 And if that person's story or motivation or justification whatever they think it is, 202 00:14:54,879 --> 00:14:58,919 deserves discussion, maybe once, but certainly not over and over. I 203 00:14:58,919 --> 00:15:03,320 don't want to see books written about school shooters. When you addressed crime con 204 00:15:03,639 --> 00:15:07,480 and told them shared these feelings, what was the reception? Actually, crime 205 00:15:07,519 --> 00:15:15,399 con to be frank and we're going back again in September in Orlando. Orlando, 206 00:15:15,639 --> 00:15:20,320 Yes, not my favorite city. Favorite, they've actually moved in our 207 00:15:20,519 --> 00:15:24,360 direction. As the brother of a murder victim, this is before we did 208 00:15:24,399 --> 00:15:28,679 Mind over Murder, I publicly criticized them and all of the true crime conferences 209 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:35,639 for focus that I thought was not appropriate. And I said, and others 210 00:15:35,639 --> 00:15:39,120 too, this isn't a Bill Thomas invention. Far from it, I said. 211 00:15:39,159 --> 00:15:43,679 The focus of these conferences needs to be more on the families and the 212 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:48,279 survivors and the people that we've lost. The focus of a true crime conference 213 00:15:48,519 --> 00:15:52,759 should also be on the fact that there are two hundred and fifty thousand cold 214 00:15:52,799 --> 00:15:58,360 case homicides in the United States. That's a quarter of a million people who 215 00:15:58,399 --> 00:16:03,159 have died, all of whom had family, friends, schoolmates. So if 216 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:07,200 you think about it, millions of people have been directly touched by this level 217 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:11,240 of violence. That's where the focus needs to be over the next couple of 218 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:18,399 years. Amazing people like Kim Goldman and Chris Darden and any number of other 219 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:22,720 people that we were just thrilled to just sit in an auditorium and listen to 220 00:16:22,759 --> 00:16:27,159 these people present their point of view as the sister of a murder victim from 221 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:33,159 a super high profile case, obviously, as a prosecutor, as investigators, 222 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:37,519 as forensic experts, that is where the focus needs to be. And they 223 00:16:37,559 --> 00:16:42,799 invited a lot more families of murder victims, a lot more survivors, which 224 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:47,639 is always really cool when you hear about someone that survived an attack of this 225 00:16:47,759 --> 00:16:52,360 sort. And they shifted the focus. It was really noticeable from we didn't 226 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:56,000 go to the first time, but we went to the second one, and 227 00:16:56,039 --> 00:17:00,960 it was a really noticeable shift from the second to the third and then on 228 00:17:00,159 --> 00:17:03,680 forward. So they did respond, and it wasn't like we were the only 229 00:17:03,759 --> 00:17:07,160 ones saying it. We didn't have a podcast at that point, but I 230 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:11,640 talked about it on other people's podcasts. How disturbing we thought. It was 231 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:15,640 the one example that made the Washington Post that they liked and both of us 232 00:17:15,839 --> 00:17:22,279 disliked so intensely. We saw a woman at Crime con who had made a 233 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:26,440 beautiful handmade skirt. A ton of work had gone into this her skirt from 234 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:30,599 top to bottom, which was clearly handmade and quite lovely. It's like a 235 00:17:32,039 --> 00:17:36,519 work of art. Was all the faces of all of these serial killers, 236 00:17:36,559 --> 00:17:42,440 one after another, even like the mugshots of serial killers. And we were 237 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:48,559 like, really, we've spent who knows how many hours sewing this beautiful skirt. 238 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:52,119 That was just an example. And I don't know this woman's name, 239 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:56,559 and I didn't pick her out of a lineup to embarrass her or anything. 240 00:17:56,839 --> 00:18:00,440 He's in a prison visiting a serial killer right now, asking him. We've 241 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:04,119 talked about that on mind. Honest, God, be kidding, there are 242 00:18:04,319 --> 00:18:11,119 people. It's happening now with that moron Brian Kolberger in suspect from the Idaho 243 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:15,960 four case. He's getting love letters from women around the country. Are you 244 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:22,640 serious? You couldn't find another semi good looking guy with a square head that 245 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:26,319 isn't in prison. Come on, and honestly, steering it back just one 246 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:32,319 second to the example that Bill was using earlier. I would defy anybody who 247 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:37,799 finds Ted Bundy to be more interesting than hearing the story of Kathy Kleiner Rubin, 248 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:41,519 one of the women who survived the attack by him. The room. 249 00:18:41,519 --> 00:18:45,440 You could have heard a pin drop in that room when she was very bravely 250 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:49,039 and for the first time publicly telling what had happened to her. That was 251 00:18:49,279 --> 00:18:53,039 that's the story that you want in anybody who's yes, we need another Ted 252 00:18:53,079 --> 00:18:56,799 Bundy movie, we need another Ted Bundy documentary. May you don't you need 253 00:18:56,799 --> 00:19:02,000 a Kathy Kleiner Rubin documentary. Yeah, she's a rock star in our world. 254 00:19:02,559 --> 00:19:06,680 Actually, when I started, when I sat down to write Phyllis's story, 255 00:19:06,839 --> 00:19:11,640 I really wanted it to be Phyllis's story, and I wanted her to 256 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:15,000 be present in every episode, right, I wanted her name in there and 257 00:19:15,039 --> 00:19:19,160 her actions because to me, you're right, the heroes of these crimes are 258 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:23,480 actually the survivors, and not only the fact that they survived this violent thing, 259 00:19:23,519 --> 00:19:27,200 this horrible thing that happened to them, but that they're living their lives. 260 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:33,359 In Phyllis's case, she found a way to go on, be productive, 261 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:37,880 be happy. To me, that is truly heroic in the face of 262 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:41,519 that kind of intense trauma, to rise from the ashes like a phoenix, 263 00:19:41,559 --> 00:19:47,640 like that's unbelievable, and then give back and not be bitter. Right, 264 00:19:48,279 --> 00:19:51,960 I don't know that I could do that. That to me, it's amazing 265 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:53,519 so I'm so happy to hear you both say that, and I'm so happy 266 00:19:53,519 --> 00:19:59,559 that you do your podcast, because that's really what people I don't know need 267 00:19:59,599 --> 00:20:03,039 to realize. I think I didn't even watch the Jeffrey Dahmer doc. Like 268 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:07,640 no, we neither one of us have seen it. Eventually, at some 269 00:20:07,759 --> 00:20:11,039 point I'll watch it, although my partner Pamela, I'm sure will insist that 270 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:15,839 I watch it on my own. She wouldn't see that stuff. It's repugnant. 271 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:19,480 Iterate for us what your goals are for your podcast? What do you 272 00:20:19,519 --> 00:20:25,200 want people to get out of it? Other than recognizing the total bad assary 273 00:20:25,519 --> 00:20:29,240 of Philliscottle, which clearly does need to be recognized. What else would you 274 00:20:29,279 --> 00:20:33,400 say your goals are for this? I actually think that bad assory is the 275 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:37,519 prime thing, because I think that there is a perception that women who are 276 00:20:37,599 --> 00:20:41,440 victims of crime are weak. We're attacked because we are weak, or we 277 00:20:41,519 --> 00:20:45,440 did something wrong and it's our fault and if only we had thought back or 278 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:48,480 kicked him in the nuts, and it would have been fine. But that's 279 00:20:48,519 --> 00:20:52,000 really not the way the world works. So I really wanted the takeaway to 280 00:20:52,079 --> 00:20:57,680 be Philis Cottle was a badass. Even though she was carjacked and assaulted in 281 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:04,240 every way possible and blinded, she never acted as a quote unquote stereotypical victim. 282 00:21:04,599 --> 00:21:08,000 She didn't sit in the corner and cry. She became an active, 283 00:21:08,039 --> 00:21:14,160 participated and participant in solving her case. In fact, the detectives told me 284 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:18,200 that she was a member of the team. And if you just imagine a 285 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:22,440 person reliving their attack over and over again in their brain to remember these tiny 286 00:21:22,519 --> 00:21:26,720 details so she could take them to investigators so that they could solve the case. 287 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:30,319 That in itself is an amazing expression of strength, Like I wanted to 288 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:36,160 really show that victims of crimes are strong. I love that, and it's 289 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:38,720 not their fault. And back in the eighties, a lot of women didn't 290 00:21:38,759 --> 00:21:44,680 report rape, just as a lot of women don't report rape today. Somehow, 291 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:48,319 Phyllis was a pioneer in that area because she was one of the few 292 00:21:48,319 --> 00:21:52,960 women at that time that decided to go on television and tell everybody what happened 293 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:57,920 to her in graphic terms. She didn't hold back, and she came to 294 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:02,880 the conclusion like this is not my fault. I'm blame. It was his 295 00:22:03,079 --> 00:22:07,359 problem, not my problem, and I want all of you to understand what 296 00:22:07,599 --> 00:22:11,279 rape is. I want you to understand what he did and why he has 297 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:15,599 to go away forever. I wanted to I don't know. I just wanted 298 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:22,079 to demonstrate to listeners that Phyllis, as a victim of these horrible crimes, 299 00:22:22,519 --> 00:22:26,359 was always strong and never weak. And she blamed herself for a time, 300 00:22:26,839 --> 00:22:32,119 but then she came to the conclusion that this is bullshit too is an expression 301 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:37,720 of strength. I just wanted people to realize that about Phyllis and ultimately about 302 00:22:37,759 --> 00:22:42,400 other survivors of crime. You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right 303 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:55,480 back after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at mindover Murder. 304 00:22:56,599 --> 00:23:00,440 The footage that you're using, if you will audio, it comes from a 305 00:23:00,519 --> 00:23:06,680 variety of sources. Did you have difficulty getting the clearances that you wanted to 306 00:23:06,759 --> 00:23:11,079 tell the story because obviously this happened a number of years ago. How did 307 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:17,000 you go about putting it together using new recordings as well as some recordings from 308 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:18,960 back in the day. Yeah, when I was thinking of writing a book 309 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:23,240 about it, which was two thousand and four, I just I recorded Phyllis 310 00:23:23,319 --> 00:23:27,119 just on those old fashioned micro cassette recorders. Oh yeah, yah, But 311 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,160 I never really planned to use them professionally. I just wanted to have them 312 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:36,240 for my notes. So for whatever reason, I kept those all of those 313 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:40,559 years, which was amazing. Some of them had degraded and I couldn't use 314 00:23:40,599 --> 00:23:45,279 them. Some of them survived, so the ones Phyllis's recordings are from two 315 00:23:45,319 --> 00:23:48,640 thousand and four. But the rest. I had a friend who's an attorney 316 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:52,680 in Acrid, and he helped me contact all of these people associated with the 317 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:56,640 case. And none of them said no. They all said yes, Oh 318 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:03,480 loved Phyllis Coddle. I can't tell you the charisma this one. So it 319 00:24:03,559 --> 00:24:07,400 wasn't you. I was going to say, they must have really liked you. 320 00:24:07,519 --> 00:24:10,119 It wasn't you. No, it was not me. It was definitely 321 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:14,319 Phyllis Phillips. And they want to keep the man who was convicted of the 322 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:17,720 crime in prison. They don't want him to get out on parole. That's 323 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:22,359 another reason. Everybody stepped forward, but nobody said no. No one said 324 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:26,559 no. It was amazing. Is he up for parole at any point soon? 325 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:30,640 I think in nine years he will be again. I can picture you 326 00:24:30,839 --> 00:24:34,839 speaking out nine years from now along with others, but obviously some people will 327 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,720 pass on, so it is important. And Phyllis has gone herself so she 328 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:44,400 can't speak. So that's a big reason why her family decided to participate. 329 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:48,079 They want to keep their mother's memory alive because she was truly amazing. And 330 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:51,880 number two, they want to keep her wish to keep this guy behind bars, 331 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:55,519 and this is one way they can do that. Where's he incarcerated now? 332 00:24:55,839 --> 00:25:00,960 In the Ohio Penitentiary. He's been there for thirty nine years. Every 333 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:04,279 ten years he comes up. He was sentenced to two hundred and ninety nine 334 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:10,480 years, and he was twenty seven when he was convicted, so he's in 335 00:25:10,519 --> 00:25:14,000 his sixties now. I still don't get the math here. If this guy 336 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:17,680 is sentenced to two hundred and ninety nine years, how in the heck is 337 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:21,039 he up for parole every ten It doesn't even do to make any sense, 338 00:25:22,039 --> 00:25:26,039 That's what Phyllis's family would say. But yes, every ten years he comes 339 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:30,119 up, and it's been denied every ten years because they've gathered thousands of letters 340 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:37,599 from people. Wow, how do you like the format of the podcast? 341 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:44,279 Do you feel liked the ability to stretch out your storytelling muscles? Does that 342 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:52,880 feel good? Or is that a challenge? That was so challenging because as 343 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:57,400 a reporter, you're used to writing succinct stories, Like the longest story I 344 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:02,519 ever wrote was like three minutes. I did though very on, but mostly 345 00:26:02,559 --> 00:26:08,079 I wrote three minute stories. So doing an episode thirteen minutes was really and 346 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:14,319 I really had to expand Let's see, how do I explain this? You 347 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,000 have to set the tone and the mood, and you have to describe the 348 00:26:17,079 --> 00:26:19,960 scene, and that I went through so many documents so that I wouldn't like 349 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:25,240 very too much from what the truth actually was, So that took a lot 350 00:26:25,279 --> 00:26:29,240 of time. And then the crime itself is so brutal, you have to 351 00:26:29,279 --> 00:26:33,640 determine how much of it to tell and when and how. That was very 352 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:38,759 difficult. That was really difficult, I can imagine. So as a professional, 353 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:45,799 what would you say are some of the most important journalistic issues that we 354 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:49,640 need to be focusing on within the true crime space? Now you're here, 355 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:53,480 you're one of us now, and that means our issues are now your issues. 356 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,680 What do we need to be focusing on doing differently or doing better? 357 00:26:57,799 --> 00:27:02,400 Or what do we need to continue doing that we're doing well already there are 358 00:27:02,519 --> 00:27:06,759 many excellent true crime podcasts out there, including yours, but there are many 359 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:11,200 not so great true crime podcasts out there that either the hosts read a bunch 360 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:15,240 of newspaper accounts of the crime, read them carefully, and just write a 361 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:19,119 bunch of stuff that's not quite true, or they embellish. It's just wrong. 362 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:26,039 That's not doing your listeners any kind of service. That's just exploiting these 363 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:30,920 victims of crime. To me, I think that podcasters should be very careful 364 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,359 in doing their due diligence because right now, and I teach journalism, and 365 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:41,759 I know young people trust podcasters the most for accurate information, for authenticity, 366 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:48,079 and if you want to keep that, we need to do our due diligence. 367 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:52,240 So I would say that's the most important factor to me is really knowing 368 00:27:52,279 --> 00:27:56,920 your stuff, really doing it in a responsible way, interviewing guests that have 369 00:27:57,079 --> 00:28:03,039 credibility and know what they're talking about. Trying to fill content because you know 370 00:28:03,039 --> 00:28:04,839 it's the last minute, you're going to throw a bunch of crap together and 371 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:10,079 get it. That's just not cool, because that's how you lose viewers and 372 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:15,319 that's how you lose trust. So for those of us who and I wanted 373 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,559 once upon a time, back in the dark ages, I actually wanted to 374 00:28:18,599 --> 00:28:21,799 be a journalist, and it never turned out that way, although funnily enough, 375 00:28:21,839 --> 00:28:23,720 look where I am right now, you would have been a journalists. 376 00:28:25,559 --> 00:28:29,400 For those of us who haven't been trained though in journalism, what are some 377 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:33,440 tips that you have for podcasters and writers who are doing their own research and 378 00:28:33,519 --> 00:28:37,759 reporting. What should we be doing better and what should we not be doing. 379 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:42,200 I think that it's important to know what a credible source is, Okay, 380 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:48,119 I need I think that thing is really important. Like just because you 381 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:52,799 read it in some newspaper or some random newspapers somewhere, at least you should 382 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:56,960 find another article to cross to or call the people in the article, and 383 00:28:57,079 --> 00:29:02,640 it just takes time to take your time because those things are really important to 384 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:07,279 cross check credible sources. What else do I tell my students? I was 385 00:29:07,319 --> 00:29:11,440 going to say, this is crash course in journalism. Right now, We're 386 00:29:11,519 --> 00:29:15,440 getting a semester's worth of good tips here in less than an hour, which 387 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:19,519 is why I'm sitting here taking notes too. The cool thing about podcasting is 388 00:29:19,559 --> 00:29:23,279 you can do long form, so you can really get into it. You 389 00:29:23,359 --> 00:29:27,519 can really educate people in an entertaining kind of way, which is amazing. 390 00:29:27,559 --> 00:29:33,000 It's something you really can't do in television news because it's just short pieces. 391 00:29:33,759 --> 00:29:36,680 I don't know a lot of it's so bad now in local news, I 392 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:38,960 find it difficult to talk about. But I think that I tell my students 393 00:29:40,079 --> 00:29:44,960 get to know a detective or two. If you're writing about crime, get 394 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:48,960 to know someone like I don't know. Even a professor who specializes in some 395 00:29:49,079 --> 00:29:53,440 facet of criminal justice would be good. Somebody you can bounce things off. 396 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:57,119 Am I going down the right road? Am I thinking about this the right 397 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:02,640 way? Because you get so in telling your own story and you fall in 398 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:06,759 love with what you've written, and that's really dangerous. You need that person 399 00:30:06,839 --> 00:30:10,680 where you can step back and say, Carol, I don't know if you're 400 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:14,839 going down the right road. I think that's really important to be a really 401 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:21,000 good storyteller, especially when you're telling true stories, because you do get lost 402 00:30:21,039 --> 00:30:25,119 in your own crap, right, Yes, you can demply get lost in 403 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:30,240 your nbs for sure. Those would be my biggest tips. And don't be 404 00:30:30,279 --> 00:30:34,079 afraid to see that you don't know something. Don't be afraid, don't pretend 405 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:38,319 you know when you don't because you can't know it all. That's impossible. 406 00:30:40,599 --> 00:30:47,559 And we've found too that its real important to develop off air sources and understand 407 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:49,920 that, for instance, some of those experts that you might talk to, 408 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:56,720 they might not be in a position to comment on the air about a particular 409 00:30:56,839 --> 00:31:00,440 incident or a case they're working. But if you say, well, can 410 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:04,000 we have a conversation that's on background or off the record, can you tell 411 00:31:04,039 --> 00:31:08,880 me are we on the right track here? Are we asking the right questions? 412 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:12,799 Or who should we talk to? And keep it all on background and 413 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:18,920 learn to respect those boundaries. I know Kristin gets on her students about this 414 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,440 because she's talked about it on the podcast. We WinCE when we hear things 415 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:27,119 where we think this is just a rip and read from Wikipedia as if Wikipedia 416 00:31:27,359 --> 00:31:33,960 is some unassailable source. Like you said, do your research. It isn't 417 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:38,359 a matter of five minutes before air thinking oh yeah, I guess I better 418 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:44,200 learn something about this case we're going to be talking about at four o'clock. 419 00:31:44,839 --> 00:31:48,680 The other thing is you're writing about real people who've suffered trauma and pain. 420 00:31:49,759 --> 00:31:55,839 Don't diss them. You're writing about a real person and something that really happened, 421 00:31:56,319 --> 00:32:00,400 and you don't get the luxury of making stuff up about that or be 422 00:32:00,559 --> 00:32:05,319 doing shoddy work about that. You're doing a disservice to those people. I 423 00:32:05,359 --> 00:32:09,359 think that sometimes storytellers forget the human angle, especially when you're working on a 424 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:19,440 true story. So Wikipedia is not it. Definitely agree. So, now 425 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:23,319 that you have covered the Phyllis Coddle case, what other stories do you see 426 00:32:23,359 --> 00:32:28,960 yourself telling? Now that you've mentioned the Alison Parker case. That would be 427 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:34,039 awesome because I remember that I went to college in Roanoke, and so I 428 00:32:34,559 --> 00:32:37,799 remember I was very familiar with that affiliate, and I remember just how absolutely 429 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:43,359 horrified I was when that happened. And I feel like there hasn't been nearly 430 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,440 enough coverage of what happened in the aftermath. I'd love to see you do 431 00:32:46,519 --> 00:32:52,440 something about Allison Parker. Is that like on the document? Maybe that would 432 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:57,400 collaborate? That would be amazing, all right too, it sounds great to 433 00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:02,039 me. I got a whole summer coming up here, let's do something. 434 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:07,680 I would love that. That would be so exciting. All right? What 435 00:33:07,799 --> 00:33:09,839 other stories would you like to tell? We'll work that out. But what 436 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:13,920 else would you like to and would you like to tell your listeners. The 437 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:16,640 woman, one of the prosecutors that helped me tell Phyllis's story was named Emily 438 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:21,599 Pelfrey, and she used to be a prosecutor in Ohio, and she has 439 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:27,759 so many interesting cases. So I'm mining her brain at the moment, and 440 00:33:27,839 --> 00:33:32,400 I'm thinking about telling the story from a prosecutor's angle, because you don't hear 441 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:37,039 that often, especially if prosecutor. She was prosecuting a case that involved a 442 00:33:37,039 --> 00:33:40,880 serial killer, and she said she was pregnant at the time and she didn't 443 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:45,880 want her pregnancy to show because that would project vulnerability in the courtroom and she 444 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:49,920 needed to be strong. This is just one story that intrigued me. And 445 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:52,079 she said, I decided to distract from my baby bump. I would wear 446 00:33:52,079 --> 00:33:57,240 the most amazing shoes I could find that when the jury looked at me, 447 00:33:57,279 --> 00:34:02,160 they would just notice my shoes that us. And she also said she was 448 00:34:02,279 --> 00:34:07,960 overly emotional so that when the family, the victim's family members took the stand, 449 00:34:08,079 --> 00:34:12,480 she would find herself starting to tear up, and she didn't want people 450 00:34:12,519 --> 00:34:16,800 to see that either. So there was all these interesting human elements that went 451 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:21,039 into her preparing that case and how she tried the case. So I'm thinking 452 00:34:21,039 --> 00:34:25,599 of telling a story from that angle from one of them, and telling the 453 00:34:25,679 --> 00:34:34,480 story of her investigating the case from across sutorial angle and then actually trying it 454 00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:39,960 from a human That one would be an amazing story. And I'll throw in 455 00:34:40,079 --> 00:34:45,280 I want to watch that television series and I want to see that movie because 456 00:34:45,519 --> 00:34:52,639 man, what an incredible intersection of story elements and this is her real life. 457 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:55,039 Yeah, I think that would be really cool, So I'm working on 458 00:34:55,079 --> 00:35:00,119 that. I'm also working on a partnership with the Project for the Innocent at 459 00:35:00,159 --> 00:35:04,920 Loyal and Marymount University. They do great work in our law school and they 460 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:08,320 have amazing stories to tell because I think that the story normally ends when the 461 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:12,400 person gets out of prison after they've been in there for thirty years, but 462 00:35:12,559 --> 00:35:17,519 like what happens then, So I'd like to tell that story as well. 463 00:35:17,559 --> 00:35:21,000 And there are just so many great stories down there. So those are the 464 00:35:21,039 --> 00:35:25,639 things I'm thinking of to do next. We shouldn't let this opportunity pass without 465 00:35:25,679 --> 00:35:31,519 talking a little bit about your former home CNN. You mentioned at the top 466 00:35:31,559 --> 00:35:37,400 of the podcast. They've been in the news just a little lately, and 467 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:40,199 I asked you off the air, and I said, I assume you still 468 00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:44,440 have friends there, and you said, yes, a lot of friends, 469 00:35:44,519 --> 00:35:49,079 including folks that have been there for a number of years. Can they move 470 00:35:49,119 --> 00:35:52,440 forward? And what would you do if they hired you as the CEO? 471 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:55,239 I think they should, right, I don't know who don't want that job? 472 00:35:55,760 --> 00:36:00,280 Oh, I don't know either. I worked at SAND for almost twenty 473 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:05,000 years, and I experienced lots of ups and downs, and there were times 474 00:36:05,039 --> 00:36:07,039 when we had no writings at all, and I lived through those times. 475 00:36:07,159 --> 00:36:12,159 And then there were times when we had great ratings and those were the heydays. 476 00:36:12,199 --> 00:36:16,440 Those were fun. So I don't think CNN is dead and gone by 477 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:21,480 any stretch of the imagination. I think that people like to talk about CN 478 00:36:21,519 --> 00:36:24,840 a lot because it's just become this hot button issue when it comes to all 479 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:29,960 things journalism that I think is unfair. So Chris Lick did not do a 480 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:34,000 good job, which is why he was eventually fired. I hope they bring 481 00:36:34,079 --> 00:36:38,760 in somebody who is better suited to run a large organization like CNN in the 482 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:43,800 times we live in today, which are so different from when I started at 483 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:47,320 CN to twenty years ago. I'm not sure that viewers are interested in seeing 484 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:52,639 a centrist product. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't see it right 485 00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:55,719 now. We live in a world that's so complicated that I'm not sure that 486 00:36:55,840 --> 00:37:01,119 you can present a story that makes everybody hap because the stories are mostly boring 487 00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:06,159 and don't really reflect what's going on in the world. So I think that 488 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:09,719 is going to have to do some deep soul searching and decide what it wants 489 00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:14,960 to be, really wants to be, what its audience wants it to be. 490 00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:17,360 And we have a very fraught election coming up, and it's got to 491 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:22,920 figure out how to cover that election more effectively than its first. Foray under 492 00:37:22,119 --> 00:37:28,280 Chris Lin, I'd have to agree they're going to have challenges, And as 493 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:31,159 I said at the beginning when we were just chatting before we started, I'm 494 00:37:31,199 --> 00:37:35,519 not sure I would have announced, oh, we're tacking to the center. 495 00:37:35,639 --> 00:37:38,159 I might have just tried it. The other thing is I think trying to 496 00:37:38,159 --> 00:37:44,559 be all things to all people is completely impossible. I do think adherence to 497 00:37:44,599 --> 00:37:47,920 the truth is really important, and I think they should be challenging all of 498 00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:52,440 the political figures that they cover, and they don't just cover politics, of 499 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:55,880 course, that's actually something they seem to have forgotten about. One of CNN's 500 00:37:55,880 --> 00:38:02,519 great strengths was these incredible reporters and producers across the country and around the world. 501 00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:08,199 Remember CN was a go to place whenever there was something really important happening, 502 00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:14,039 particularly at an international location, but nationally as well. They seem to 503 00:38:14,079 --> 00:38:15,960 have lost sight of all of that. I don't think Chris Lick was a 504 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:20,840 good choice. The skill set, though, of someone that can run an 505 00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:25,239 organization of that scale and be effective. That's not a long list of people 506 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:30,480 that have that kind of resume. True, you have four thousand people, 507 00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:34,000 many of them are based on other parts of the world. You have the 508 00:38:34,079 --> 00:38:37,599 advertising space. There are just so many things when you're running a network to 509 00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:42,360 take into account besides journalism and the way we do news. So you have 510 00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:45,039 all of that, but I think that journalism is in a precarious state right 511 00:38:45,079 --> 00:38:49,360 now. You also have that. So you're dealing with all these issues all 512 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,719 at once when everybody complains about you, and everybody has an opinion about how 513 00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:57,800 journalism should be done. Everybody does, even if they've never done it in 514 00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:00,840 their entire lives. So have to be the kind of manager that can block 515 00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:06,960 out the noise and have a concrete direction, and you have to communicate that 516 00:39:07,039 --> 00:39:12,079 to your staff journalists or not pushovers. Don't just take the boss's word and 517 00:39:12,199 --> 00:39:15,239 say, oh, yeah, I'll go do that unless we really respect them 518 00:39:15,519 --> 00:39:19,159 and they prove to us that they have the wherewithal to handle the job. 519 00:39:19,679 --> 00:39:22,400 Otherwise they're going to go do what they want, or the product's going to 520 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:24,639 be like not what you want it to be, because they're not going to 521 00:39:24,679 --> 00:39:29,519 be putting in their best effort because they're going to be confused. That was 522 00:39:29,559 --> 00:39:32,400 one of the takeaways from the Atlantic article, which was amazing. I literally 523 00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:37,119 couldn't put it down. I kept reading and reading and thinking, gosh, 524 00:39:37,159 --> 00:39:40,159 this is great and it's really long, and I didn't realize it was fifteen 525 00:39:40,199 --> 00:39:45,280 thousand words when I sat down the exercise session with the guy with the pajama 526 00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:49,119 bottoms and the polka dot shirt, and he was like making chrislickx. That 527 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:55,000 was bizarre. Oh, giving a reporter that level of access for that long 528 00:39:55,599 --> 00:40:02,760 isn't probably a great idea. Ew why would you even bring the reporter to 529 00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:07,360 your exercise session? Yeah, you're absolutely right about that, But I think 530 00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:10,119 that Chris lick. It seemed so anyway that he was I don't know. 531 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:15,599 He wanted to improve his public image, and maybe he thought that would if 532 00:40:15,639 --> 00:40:20,000 his public image improve, that would improve things with the staff. But that's 533 00:40:20,039 --> 00:40:22,079 really not the way it works. Plus, I work for Jeff Zucker. 534 00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:29,280 Yeah, I loved him. I was going to say Zucker had an understanding 535 00:40:29,679 --> 00:40:31,920 with the people that worked for him. I'm not saying everybody loved the guy, 536 00:40:32,079 --> 00:40:37,559 but they felt like he was in their corner and that he really understood 537 00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:42,760 how to work with talent and not a word I care much for, but 538 00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:49,360 all of these talented producers and writers, and most importantly the on air reporters. 539 00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:52,440 I'll tell you how close he was. So I had the newsdesk is 540 00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:55,679 in the middle of the newsroom at the New York so I would anchor the 541 00:40:55,719 --> 00:41:00,639 news. I could see Jeff Zucker's office from the news desk was just right 542 00:41:00,639 --> 00:41:04,960 across the way, and in commercial breaks if he noticed and he was watching 543 00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:07,079 me, so that told me like he cared about what I was doing. 544 00:41:07,199 --> 00:41:10,960 Yeah, exactly. It meant a lot time. So in breaks he would 545 00:41:12,039 --> 00:41:14,599 sometimes come out of his office and say, you know what, when this 546 00:41:14,639 --> 00:41:19,519 other person comes up you probably should ask this, see if this tactic works. 547 00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:23,639 And I appreciated that because most times he was absolutely right. It is 548 00:41:23,679 --> 00:41:28,639 difficult to be on the air for two hours in a live broadcast, especially 549 00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:31,880 with the election of twenty sixteen, when you had to catch inaccuracies in real 550 00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:36,079 time. That's really hard, Yeah, because for a brief moment, your 551 00:41:36,119 --> 00:41:43,280 brain says, is that really true? And then you have to summon the 552 00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:47,079 information, the true information like that right. Everybody was the producer like feeds 553 00:41:47,119 --> 00:41:52,039 us info, but they can't even keep up. So it was comforting to 554 00:41:52,039 --> 00:41:58,760 have Jeff Zucker right there. I'm picturing Aaron Sorkins the news room and superimposing 555 00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:04,920 your faith. That's happening because that sounds exactly like what they did on the 556 00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:08,599 episodes where they covered the election. That's why only frame of reference for us 557 00:42:08,679 --> 00:42:13,800 right at the moment, the stuff was so out there, You're like, 558 00:42:14,079 --> 00:42:16,440 am I the crazy one? I know? So, I don't know. 559 00:42:16,519 --> 00:42:21,639 Jeff Zucker was very connected to the staff and not just talent, but you're 560 00:42:21,679 --> 00:42:24,719 right, the producers. He had a game plan every morning. You understood 561 00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:30,119 what direction the network was going that particular day. We were all on board 562 00:42:30,119 --> 00:42:32,760 because it was brilliant most times. I know that CEN did a lot of 563 00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:37,360 things wrong with the election of twenty sixteen, but it did try to write 564 00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:40,239 itself. And I think that people forget that was an election like no other, 565 00:42:40,639 --> 00:42:45,320 and this election coming up will be an election like no other. It 566 00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:50,599 it'll just be weird in many respects and disturbing in many respects. So you're 567 00:42:50,599 --> 00:42:53,199 figuring out as a news manager how to cover it in real time. It's 568 00:42:53,199 --> 00:42:55,440 not like you get a bunch of time to sit around with your pals and 569 00:42:55,519 --> 00:43:00,679 say, huh, how should we cover this weird shit. It's happening. 570 00:43:02,159 --> 00:43:07,039 It happens in real time, and you want to get it right, and 571 00:43:07,079 --> 00:43:10,079 sometimes you do and sometimes you don't because news managers are human too. But 572 00:43:10,199 --> 00:43:14,239 you want a news manager who gets it right most of the time in the 573 00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:16,719 moment, and that was not Chris linked. No, it's going to be 574 00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:22,559 a big shoes to fill. It really is. So I gather than you 575 00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:29,039 don't miss getting up at three o'clock in the morning or on the air. 576 00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:32,920 I thought that forever more I would wake up at two thirty in the morning, 577 00:43:34,199 --> 00:43:37,840 but that's not true because the day I left Sin, I slept until 578 00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:45,119 ten my body snapped right back to normal. Yeah. I wake up at 579 00:43:45,159 --> 00:43:49,199 four thirty every morning so that I can get ready, and then I've got 580 00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:52,599 a half hour drive to school. And as soon as I don't have to 581 00:43:52,639 --> 00:43:54,880 set that alarm for the summer, I will do exactly the same thing ten 582 00:43:54,920 --> 00:44:02,039 o'clock in the morning. Don't call me before then. Funny how you can 583 00:44:02,159 --> 00:44:06,639 like actually function with brain fog, right, because I'm sure you have brain 584 00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:08,840 fog waking up at four thirty in the morning. Yes, And honestly, 585 00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:13,840 for the first time ever this morning, and this is I'm uber organized. 586 00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:15,760 Bill will tell you that, for the first time ever, I actually managed 587 00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:20,239 to walk out of my house without my lunch this morning. And it wasn't 588 00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:22,800 until I got to school thirty minutes later and I realized, oh my god, 589 00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:28,159 I don't have anything to eat for today. I've never had that happen 590 00:44:28,199 --> 00:44:31,719 before. But the end of year teacher tired brain fog is so real, 591 00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:37,559 and it's like we're on it. And can I just say teachers are amazing, 592 00:44:37,119 --> 00:44:42,199 thank you. I'm actually now when they're under at tech from so many 593 00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:46,199 different places. I think that it's difficult enough to teach, but to deal 594 00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:50,679 with all the other stuff that's going on right now, and you're hanging in 595 00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:54,039 there and continuing to do it and care about your students. That's amazing. 596 00:44:54,159 --> 00:44:59,320 Thank you. I appreciate that. Carol. Tell our listeners where they can 597 00:44:59,559 --> 00:45:05,760 tune in into your podcast. You can catch Carol Costello Presents Blind Rage wherever 598 00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:08,880 you get your podcasts. I had just started a new Facebook page, Facebook 599 00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:14,840 dot com slash Carol lmu. We can start a conversation there that would be 600 00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:19,599 terrific, or Instagram and I think it's just it at Carol Costello Blind Rage. 601 00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:22,280 You can get it wherever you get your podcasts, and please listen because 602 00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:27,079 I want to do the greatest service I can to phil Scottle because she was 603 00:45:27,159 --> 00:45:30,159 chewing an amazing woman and her story has to be shared, and we will 604 00:45:30,159 --> 00:45:34,239 put links to all of that in our show notes. Carol, thank you 605 00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:37,440 so much for joining us today, thank you for having me, and thank 606 00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:39,840 you for doing what you do that's going to do it for this episode of 607 00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:44,599 Mind Over Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next 608 00:45:44,679 --> 00:45:59,400 time. Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. 609 00:46:00,039 --> 00:46:04,679 Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is 610 00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:09,159 by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. Mind Over Murder 611 00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:15,599 is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, 612 00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:19,480 Twitter, or Instagram. You can also follow our page on the Colonial 613 00:46:19,519 --> 00:46:23,360 Parkway Murders on Facebook, and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter 614 00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:29,840 at Bill Thomas. Five six. Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.