WEBVTT

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The buddhas said, having known with
my awareness the train of thought in back

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Obrahma's awareness as a strong man,
would extend his flex storm or flex his

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extended arm, vanishing into the root
of the royal Solar tree in the subago

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foresting low Carter and appear in that
Brahma world. Bark Obrama saw me coming

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in the distance, and on seeing
me said, come, good sir,

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you are welcome, Good sir,
it has been long, good sir,

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since you're arranged to come here.
Noboddy, No, you cannot read minds

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or vanished from earth and appear in
heaven to talk to the gods. If

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you think you can prove the supernatural
in your religion, oh, if you

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think that Buddhism is just a philosophy
and doesn't contain supernatural claims, then give

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us a call because the show is
starting right now. Hello, Hello,

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welcome to Talk Heathen. This is
Sunday, August at thirteen, twenty twenty

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three, and I'm your host,
Richard Deliver and joining me today is the

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very wonderful Dan. How are you, Dan, what's up? I'm good?

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What's up? Ricardo Ricardo g As
I like to say yes, Ricardo

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g I am very very very well. Thank you. I've been doing lots

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and lots of things this weekend,
so I haven't had a minute to sit

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now, But that's all good.
Dive straight in and let's get some things

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done. Let's just start with the
announcements. Talkkeeden is a product of the

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Etheist Community of Austin. This is
a five h one c three nonprofit organization

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and it is dedicated to the promotion
of atheism, critical thinking, secular humanism,

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and the separation of religion and government. Talkkeeden is a life calling show

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and we have open lines, so
I get your calls in on five one

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two nine nine nine two four two
or from your computer at tiny dot cc

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slash call t H. But of
course, before we're jump into the calls,

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we have the question of the week
always Last week we asked you what

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is a prayer request that would ridge
eyebrows in a place of worship? And

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the top three answers are see not. The best prayer request I could offer

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is from a bumper sticker I bought
but didn't have the nerve to put on

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my car. Jesus protect me from
your followers. That would be some neves

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on to put on the bumper.
What do you think, dan In,

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that's a solid one. Would that
request? Yeah, that's that's great.

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The next one is I'm just going
to pronounce the first name because I'm naming,

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going to attempt the second one,
Oliver. It says a prayer request

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that might raise eyebrows. Please pray
for God to regrow my foreskin too sensitive?

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Yeah, if you attempt to regrow
it. Yeah? Right? What

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says prayer request? Please contract my
hold? Those coming out with these words

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todays put a frontalast front aist and
that's apparently the muscle that raises your eyebrows.

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As you can tell I, I'm
not a medical person. That's another

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good one. Don't you think that
God can contract body parts? I mean

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he should, right, I don't
see why he wouldn't. If you can

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like talk to people through burning bushes
and spitting people's eyes and heal them from

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blindness, Yeah, why not?
Right? So you should have contracted the

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body part of the Holy Spirit that
entered Mary and gave us Jesus, and

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the world might be a lot better
place if that was the case. So

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we have we have the same well, a different question, but a question

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of the week next week, and
the prompt for that is you are in

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Hell? Who is your roommate?
Enter your best answer below the video in

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the comments, and next week we
will reveal the top three answers and make

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their names as hard to pronounce as
possible because it will be Dan doing the

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reading. But let me ask you
this, Dan. In the meantime,

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you are in hell, so who
would be your roommates? So, if

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it's actually hell and the premises I'm
there for purposes of eternal torment, it

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would be Pat Robertson. Like,
no questions asked, because like I have

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one and have nothing in common with
the man, but also he's just he

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is. He is the devil in
card it like if if the devil is

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real, he exists as Pat Robertson
did on Earth. So I don't Yeah,

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Pat Robertson probably would be my pick
for this particular problem. Yeah.

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Absolutely, having a roommate who we
don't agree with, I think it would

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always be infinitely more interesting than kind
of having one you do. It would

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certainly make a living life much more
interesting. Danny ready to jump into calls.

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I'm always ready to jump into calls. You know it. Let's do

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it. Who shall we take?
Who shall we take? Let's Takemoja?

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Who is asking? Why? God? Are you there? Hello? It

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was you alive on talk Heathen?
What's up? Yeah? My name is

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would you. I'm a former I
converted to Islam, and I was wondering

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that if God wants just people to
give the teats and follow his commands,

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which are him doing? Good teats, love one another, love your neighbor

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as you love yourselves, give charity, take care of war fans, and

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so on. So what your agies? What kind of problems you have with

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such a you know request? Yeah, well, if it was that simple,

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we wouldn't have any problems. But
unfortunately it's not that simple. You

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know, if there was just a
big being out in this guy who was

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saying, yeah, this is what
you should do, whether or not he

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was real or not, it seems
like I wouldn't care. But unfortunately that's

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not all what he says. And
of course, let's get depend on which

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holy book you subscribe to, but
pretty much all of them have their own

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issues, right, So, I
mean, we could count the ways in

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which they have issues, but honestly, it depends on how much time you

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have. Seriously, I mean,
it doesn't take very long to look into

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the history the terrible cruelty that has
been acted by folks who have been true

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believers of the book and have tried
to follow it, like to the word.

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It seems like every time that's happened, there's been more strife than there's

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been people living in prosperity. But
again, that's my opinion. I don't

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know, Richard, you probably feel
the same way. Yeah, I kind

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of understand it a little bit further
as well, And I'd say I would

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say personally that it's not just about
what that God is proposed to be like.

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If there is no evidence that that
God exists, I think that's the

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more important issue. Why should we
even even if it's proposed to be the

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most perfect, the most giving,
the kindest being there is, if there's

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no reason to believe it actually exists
in reality, what why should we believe

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it exists? And you know,
we can we can kind of think about

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what a fictional character over God with
no evidence it is like all day long

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and say, yes, that's that's
a wonderful that's wonderful attribute to hold.

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But if it doesn't exist and there's
no good reason to think it exists.

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Then it's kind of a more point. Can I say something Now I'm in

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Muslim, Okay, I converted to
Islam. But when I read some of

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the teachings of Buddha, I don't
believe that Buddha was God, or he

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was a prophet of God. Whatever. When I read some of his teachings

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and I see they are nice,
so I say, okay, they are

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nice, and I followed them.
Or if politician is or philosopher say something

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nice, I say it's nice,
and I accept it. I followed.

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I don't have to believe that that, you know, philosopher or that or

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Buddha is God or his prophet of
God. So something nice, I don't

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have a issue to follow. So
the problem if it was a politician.

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So if it was a politician or
a philosopher, we would know that they

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actually exist. And that is That
is kind of the point I was trying

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to know. But give me on
that, Richard. Even beyond that,

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Okay, look, you're a Muslim. What does what does Islam teach you

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to treat non Muslims? Right?
What is the result of me being a

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non Muslim? Richard being a non
Muslim? Like what happens to us at

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the end of our life. Okay, all right, let me read for

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you chapter sixty, verse eight.
Who says chapter sixty, verse eight,

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A lot do not forbid you from
those who do not fight you because of

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your religion, and do not expel
you from your homes from being righteous towards

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them and acting justly towards them.
Indeed, a lot loves those who act

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justly. So this is how I
have to treat interesting, have to be

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just interesting. So he loves those, he still loves us. So what

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happens to us after we die?
After you die, you will be judged

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according your duds, not your beliefs. So if you do badtiats in this

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world, you will be judged according
your badtiats. And if you do,

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non Muslims get to go to heaven. Yes, non Muslims will go to

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the good you haven't. Definitely,
if you do good deeds, I can

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for you from court are Yes,
I can read for you from courant chapter

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chapter seven, verse eight. And
the weight of deeds that they will be

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the truth. So those who who's
the scale of good deeds are heavy,

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it is they who will be the
successful. So it doesn't say Moslin it

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say those Okay, how do we
define what is a good deed on the

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in the eyes of God in which
he would judges on that, because it

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seems that, you know, what's
what some people may think a good deeds

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maybe different to what other people think
a good deeds. And if it's down

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to what God thinks are good deeds, you know, how do we decide

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what those things are? If it's
mentioned in court? Aren't taking chair of

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orphans? H what is it given
to relatives? You know? All these

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types of things are good deeds.
He has to be righteous towards others to

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forgive people. Okay, I can
well if I don't want to forgive someone,

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what happens, if some what happens, if somebody does something tremendously untowards

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towards one of my children, and
I don't want to forgive them, and

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they are completely in the wrong,
and I choose not to forgive them for

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that is that displeasing in the eyes
of God? Would would that send me

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to hell? No? No,
that would not send you to help your

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What is it? If you forgive
I lost it. I'll forgive your bads.

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Okay, I've just I've just said
I wouldn't forgive. I wouldn't.

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I've just I've just said somebody did
a really really bad thing. Somebody did

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a really really bad thing, and
I did not forgive them for it.

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Would this mean in Alla's eyes,
how would we going to hell? No,

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No, you are not going to
hold a lost days that an eye

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for an eye, a tools for
a tool, a life for a life.

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Okay, But if you forgive,
it's better for you. But if

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you exceed, then you are around
you Okay, So you have to be

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you know, just and judge.
I haven't forgiven. This is the third

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time I've given this statement. I
haven't forgiven in this instance, and you

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keep returning to but if you forgive
it, I haven't forgiven. Yeah,

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I said that if you forgie,
But if you don't want to forgie,

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okay, you are not going to
be punished just because you didn't forgive.

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As I said that, you have
to judge accorded. You know you don't

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have to exceed, all right,
you don't have to exceed the limit.

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If an eye for an eye,
tooth for a tooth, a life for

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a life. Let's let's skip back
a couple of steps where I asked you

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what was good in the sight of
Allah and what would be the thing that

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we were judged upon, And you
said the things that he instructed us,

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for example, forgiving people. So
in the context of the question that I

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asked, that is what Allah would
think is a good thing and would get

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us into heaven. But I've stated
that I will not forgive this circumstance.

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So does Allah, because Allah thinks
it will judges on the things that he

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thinks he's good. The example you
gave is forgiving people. I will not

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forgive people. Let's answer the question
that I'm asking you in the context of

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which I'm asking you it all right? And I answered you, I said

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that, okay, if let's let's
ask a different example. Yes, yes,

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let's let's give a different example.
Give me a different example because this

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one doesn't seem to work for you. Give us a different example of something

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that Allah instructs us to do that
would be good, that we should do

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to get into heaven. For example, in the past, was you know,

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free slaves was a good deal,
giving to all fans, feeding pool,

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taking care of all fans, and
so on. So these types of

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things were good. Today is also
definitely not harming other people, okay,

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not harming, not oppressing other people. He's also good avoiding bad deeds.

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Avoiding badeps is a good deal.
This is the entire question. We're trying

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to establish what is good in the
eyes of Allah. It's just simply telling

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us to avoid bad deeds doesn't really
tell us anything because we still don't know

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what it considers to be good and
bad. We need to know his standard

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of good and bad in order to
live up to it. As I said,

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why elating other people's right is a
bad deed? Or pressing other people

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is a bad deed? Okay?
Avoiding deeds okay, this is very simple,

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very clear that if you while it
to other people's rights, if you'll

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press them, that's a bad deed. And you will be like, why

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then, why for the history of
Islam, was the was was buying slaves

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for example, in using them towards
economic labor. Why is this still okay?

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Why is there never any items in
any adits in any of the Quran

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that says buying people is wrong.
It doesn't say buying is wrong. It's

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a freeing is good? Okay,
because at time was not the time that

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you know it was It's like I
can say today we say, because the

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fossil fuel is bad for environment,
we say stop the fossil fuel. It's

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not working like that. Okay,
But a lot tried in every way to

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free slaves. Okay, with every
every possibility that if you do this,

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you have to free a slave.
If you do that, seen or that

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seeds again, the compension is that
you have to free slaves. So he

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tried to free slaves slowly, slowly, all right, So why does it

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have to be slowly and why not? Like you know right now, like

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why is this the difference here?
You see what I'm saying, like there's

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compromises here in listen. Going back
to what I was originally interested in is

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yeah, you're saying that non Muslims, folks like us, we get to

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go to heaven as long as we
understand what is good, right, if

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we understand what is right, And
Richard was trying to get to this point

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too, here's the problem. I
don't agree with what Muslims think is good

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A lot of times. Granted we
probably do have some agreeance with what is

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good, But the fact is what
we understand is good and bad has changed

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throughout history and it's still today where
we have very large differences between myself and

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majority Muslim populations. So you know, one of those being LGBT people.

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For example, how many LGBT people
today are still being killed in Muslim majority

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countries by Muslims right, Like?
It's a lot. Uh, you know

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that's an just one example. I
mean, we could talk about the history

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of slavery, we could talk about
the history of Islamic warfare, but you

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know, all that to be a
side. I mean, that happens with

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all religions. I'm not trying to
pick on one. It's just that the

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reason why we don't have any agreeance
with people who still believe in a God

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is because people use that God believe
to do bad things all the time every

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day. It's just that's that's that's
probably our biggest reason why, at least

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it is for me, why I
still choose to talk about this stuff killing

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LGBT I said that people can they
do that. Of course they call themselves

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Muslims, but that's against Islam because
according Islam, we have no right to

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judge people. The judgment is only
on God, Okay, and what is

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God? What does God judge the
LGBT people, for he says, of

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course, that's one is up to
him that he knows best. Okay,

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I don't know. Okay. So
do you think God is supportive or against

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LGBT people. Yeah, He's definitely
against them, Okay. Okay, so

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we have our answers. So God
still doesn't give a shit about LGBT people,

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right like, he still thinks that
they deserve punishment, right Okay.

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So as I said that this is
up to him, he can, he

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can, Okay, So it's up
to him. It's up to the great

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goodest thing ever to give damnation and
hell fire to LGBT people, right like,

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As long as he's doing it,
that's okay. Yeah, said,

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do you see the problem heremogi?
Do you see the in humanity in this?

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You're just scapegoating your own morality.
You're deffering yourself because you think this

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is okay. You think this is
right, that somebody can give hell fire

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and damnation to these other people as
long as somebody else is doing it,

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as long as it's the greatest Goodness
says it's okay. That can justify your

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own bigotry. Well, here's what
I think. I think that's wrong.

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I think that's a bad thing to
do. I don't think you should.

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I don't think you should judge people
for being LGBT, and I don't think

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that anything should become of that because
you're LGBT. I think that is wrong

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because I don't think it's something that
you can change. And I don't think

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that in consensual relationships there's anything wrong
with this. But the vast majority of

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Muslim people do throughout history, and
that is a fact. There are some

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that say, oh, we don't
have to judge, we don't do this,

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and that the vast majority of throughout
history has said that this is wrong

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and there should be consequences for it, and that is just a historical fact,

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right, yes, yes, stand
yes, but it has it will

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change because people in the past they
were not educated enough, and it is

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going to change that we have no
right to judge people. And I said

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that God is the most merciful and
forgiving, he might forgive them. Okay,

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I don't know that. Yeah,
I don't think there's still Yeah,

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there's nothing to be forgiven for it. There It is not a crime.

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You're not doing anything wrong or something
that is being worth punished for by just

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being LGBT, or even just I
would say, even go as so far

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as to say doing something as a
homosexual. Whoa, it's crazy, I

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know, but yeah, there's just
nothing wrong. There's nothing wrong about that

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period. It's just it's just who
people are. Yes, yes, yeah,

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that's your decision, that's your understanding. Okay. And sure is that

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that that shouldn't look a look,
that shouldn't that shouldn't stop you from loving

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one another, loving your labor as
you love yourself. Okay, just because

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God says that it is wrong,
but most yeah, it sure does.

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It stops a lot of Muslims for
doing it, and apparently it stops God

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from from loving people. Right.
No, I said that God forgives people.

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He says, I forgive your mind
about it if you avoid major about

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itsts Okay. According regarding slavery as
well, Chapter nine, verse sixty says,

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all taxes only for the pool and
the needy, and for those employed

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to at least at the stories for
unless unless of partaking in active homosexual relationships.

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Apparently. Yeah. Also, again, we can talk about various adits

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that that that talk about laws in
which we can govern the practice of slavery.

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Right, I mean Yeah, it
may be that fring someone is the

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ultimate ideal. But if you think
slavery is bad, period, you wouldn't

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make any concessions for it, right. We wouldn't have these kinds of ins

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and out rules that say, okay, well you can do this and you

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can do that as long as you
treat them right. If we say something's

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bad, it's bad for some reason. We don't make any concessions for folks

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who are LGBT. We can't say, oh, well, as long as

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you're in a loving relationship with somebody, that might be okay. No,

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Apparently all of those people have to
be forgiven for something, But the Cadets

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or the Quran never actually says somebody
has to be forgiven for owning a human

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being. I think that's really interesting
because I think what that points out is

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a sign of the times more than
anything. I don't think that points to

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an ultimate being that knows right from
wrong. I think it points to human

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beings in history who had some understanding
of what they thought was right and wrong.

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And that's that's all there is to
say to it, honestly. Okay.

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In Koran a Last Days, that
chapter seven, verse one hundred twenty

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seven, Paul said, we will
slaughter their songs and keep their women alive.

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Indeed, we are subjecting that.
So these are bad, bad acts

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of the you know, frown to
enslave people. Chapter twenty six, verse

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twenty two says, most said is
a favor of which you remind me that

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you have been slaved the children of
Israel. So there are many many verses

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that you know, say that slavery
is a bad piece by oppressor. Chapter

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nine sixty of the Child was going
to read for you. Yeah, yes,

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you do. Again, I don't
care. I mean, first of

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all, Muhammad had slaves, so
let's just let's keep that in mind.

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But also again I I'm still saying
this is bad. The fact that Islam

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can say, oh, in some
cases this is bad, that's great.

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But the fact is the vast like
like in in the history of Islam,

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slavery has not only been a practice
that has been well received, but specifically

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endorsed within particular contexts, and and
you can quote different places, that's all.

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That's all great. I can equally
find places in the Quran that specifically

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talked about the laws in which you
should engage in as a slave in order

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to righteously own a slave. I
mean, this is really the concept that's

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being had here. It doesn't say
slavery is Bam, can't have it,

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No, sir, can't be had. They said, Okay, this is

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an institution that we're going to accept
and we're going to regulate like like that

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is just a historical fact. We
can wrestle with that all day, but

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that's just the history of it,
Okay. I said that for even for

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these wars that they were saying they
were going to get killed. Okay,

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So certain things were to not only
the consequences of the people accepting people,

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okay. And then another thing is
that they should also prepare the situation.

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For example, I can give you
an example that in India, millions of

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children are working and in countries like
little child labor is forbidden. You cannot

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forbid child labor in India because they
are bringing income to their family. So

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00:22:57.799 --> 00:23:02.000
you have to first it is not
just lows. You have to be able

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00:23:02.119 --> 00:23:06.680
to implement those laws. Okay.
So you cannot say that child labor is

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forbidden in India. Mediums of chi
families, well, you know, go

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hungry, because this child was about
riding for their families. What about marrying

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children? That's bad. I'm gonna
go here, I'm gonna go here.

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But about children, yeah, definitely
bad. Who said that is right?

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Mohammad? Wait, he just as
who says it's right. I'm saying Mohammad

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definitely was okay with that. No, no, Mohammad, No, Mohammad

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00:23:32.599 --> 00:23:36.319
didn't do that. These are pubricators. Mohammad did that, Yes he did.

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What do you mean, Yes he
did, of course he did.

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Okay, okay, let me see, let me see, let me see

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the one who told you that Muhammad
married a six year old child. He

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said, Mohammad split the moon.
Why you don't believe the moon splitting?

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Do you believe that, Mohammad?
Stop? Stop stop? No, no,

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00:23:55.920 --> 00:23:59.799
do you know do you know who
said? Do you know who said

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that Mohammad married a six year old
child? Do you know who it is

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00:24:03.119 --> 00:24:10.359
is? Yes? And who was
he quoting? Who was Bakari quoting?

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00:24:10.599 --> 00:24:18.640
Bohari has fabricated a lot of reporting. I'm asking you a question. Yeah,

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00:24:18.720 --> 00:24:27.039
he created this. This was quoting
You mean that he was quoting profit

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00:24:27.119 --> 00:24:32.119
Mohammad. Yes, yeah, no, he was quoting Asia, the person

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00:24:32.279 --> 00:24:37.559
or Mohammad married when she was six, that supercar. It was I can

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00:24:37.759 --> 00:24:40.440
tell you. I can tell you, yes, I heard this from profit

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00:24:40.519 --> 00:24:44.359
Mahmad. How to you verify that
one? Okay? He was lying?

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He said that the car indeed one
of the most fourth right, he's a

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00:24:53.880 --> 00:25:00.279
because it's inconvenience, is it?
Do you do all the hard and do

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you reject all of the No?
No, I don't reject all of that.

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No, you don't reject full of
the Do you do you reject any

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00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:11.559
it? Don't don't actually comply with
the personal beliefs that you hold. Obviously,

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00:25:11.680 --> 00:25:15.480
only the ones that don't agree with
you that you reject. No,

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00:25:17.400 --> 00:25:21.400
why you reject that? How these
that says that the prophet Mamas city the

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00:25:21.480 --> 00:25:25.039
moon? Why do you reject that
one? So you apply the one so

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00:25:25.240 --> 00:25:30.279
you don't have the one, which
is we're not Muji, we're not Muslims.

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We don't we don't accept any of
it, like we reject all of

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00:25:33.799 --> 00:25:37.799
it. Right. But but there's
a difference between also, like you know,

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reciting historical fact versus telling a legend
as well, it can also be

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different. To reject the beliefs of
Islam doesn't necessarily make that all writings from

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all Muslim scholars, means that there's
no historosity involved in their writings that that

352
00:25:52.160 --> 00:25:56.240
would be that would be insane to
say something like that. Right. Of

353
00:25:56.359 --> 00:26:00.000
course they captured like some historical events, but they also had some beliefs mixed

354
00:26:00.039 --> 00:26:03.000
in there that just aren't true.
Right, So some of that can be

355
00:26:03.200 --> 00:26:07.880
more easily found out than others,
like for example, the moon splitting.

356
00:26:07.200 --> 00:26:11.240
Right, But again there's also lots
of people who are Islamic, let's say,

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yeah, that's one hundred percent true. So like, I don't know,

358
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I think that's that's part of the
problem here, right, It's like

359
00:26:17.279 --> 00:26:21.119
we don't even have a coherent idea
of what it means to be Muslim because

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there's so many different interpretations even from
the very beginning of what Islam even is.

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Why why I rejected is because it
is not mentioned in Koran. Such

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a great miracle is not mentioned in
Kora. So that's why I rejected.

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00:26:33.920 --> 00:26:37.160
It was written in Koran, then
I would you know, accept it because

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being split into it's mentioned in the
Koran. Yeah, I believe it isn't.

365
00:26:42.359 --> 00:26:47.240
Yeah, definitely is absolutely not.
No, it is absolutely not that

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00:26:48.160 --> 00:26:52.440
you know that the miracle of Moses
has been mentioned in many, many verses

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00:26:52.880 --> 00:26:57.319
exactly. So we got chronic verse
fifty four one that says the hour is

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at handed. The moon has been
split. This isn't reference to you.

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00:27:00.839 --> 00:27:06.680
It's our approach and the moon split. It doesn't say how many pieces.

370
00:27:06.880 --> 00:27:12.079
It doesn't say who splited. Okay, it is that's not predict You all

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00:27:12.279 --> 00:27:15.720
claim you said it wasn't in the
Quran. You didn't say it wasn't in

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00:27:15.799 --> 00:27:22.119
the specify how many moans I said
Prophet Muhammad is splitting the moon is not

373
00:27:22.279 --> 00:27:26.440
in Koran. That's about the hour. When the hour comes. Yes,

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everything will be split. Everything,
not only movie, the Earth, the

375
00:27:30.079 --> 00:27:34.920
sun, everything, the entire universe
will be split. It doesn't say that

376
00:27:36.079 --> 00:27:38.160
it's split to half. Okay,
it doesn't say it was a split.

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00:27:41.160 --> 00:27:45.359
Moojiji. Listen a second, just
a second. So far, during this

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00:27:45.519 --> 00:27:49.240
call, we've established from you that
the most reliable the deed that we have

379
00:27:49.519 --> 00:27:53.880
aren't true because they disagree with something
that you think is immoral. We've established

380
00:27:55.079 --> 00:28:00.519
the Muslims who do things that you
don't agree with aren't real Muslims because they

381
00:28:00.559 --> 00:28:03.759
don't agree with you. And we've
also established that things that are in the

382
00:28:03.880 --> 00:28:08.119
Kuran you think are not in the
Koran. So we are going to move

383
00:28:08.160 --> 00:28:11.200
on from this call very very shortly, but before we do, I'd just

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00:28:11.359 --> 00:28:15.559
like to say that I think me, me and Dan aren't Muslim, but

385
00:28:15.640 --> 00:28:18.039
I think it is U, Sir
who needs to go and do I'm going

386
00:28:18.079 --> 00:28:22.000
to use it. I'm going to
use the phrase everyone, you need to

387
00:28:22.079 --> 00:28:27.920
go and do your research as to
what it's actually in the Koran and part

388
00:28:29.160 --> 00:28:33.640
of the Islamic tradition, because you
seem to have much less knowledge about it

389
00:28:33.960 --> 00:28:37.920
than me and Dana were both non
Muslim. As I'm going to let you

390
00:28:37.039 --> 00:28:40.640
go, I suggest you do that. Thank you for your call. When

391
00:28:40.680 --> 00:28:45.039
you've done that research, please come
back and give us another call. Dan.

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00:28:45.319 --> 00:28:48.279
That was very interesting. No,
that wasn't interesting. I mean so

393
00:28:48.200 --> 00:28:52.880
it always comes down to this,
and this isn't the first time this pattern

394
00:28:52.960 --> 00:28:56.240
has happened, where it's like,
why don't you why are you against people

395
00:28:56.240 --> 00:29:00.119
who believe in God? And then
we say, well, because people who

396
00:29:00.160 --> 00:29:03.160
believe in God have also problematic beliefs
X, Y, and Z, And

397
00:29:03.200 --> 00:29:06.000
they're like, oh, well,
I don't have these problematic beliefs, and

398
00:29:06.039 --> 00:29:10.519
it's like, okay, that's fine. But other people who do believe in

399
00:29:10.599 --> 00:29:14.079
God also have these problematic beliefs,
so we are against that. And by

400
00:29:14.079 --> 00:29:15.839
the way, you do have problematic
beliefs. If you are saying, for

401
00:29:15.960 --> 00:29:22.400
example, that, oh, the
indictment of LGBT people is you know,

402
00:29:22.519 --> 00:29:25.200
up for God to decide, not
me, you're basically still saying that,

403
00:29:25.279 --> 00:29:27.160
yeah, you think it's wrong.
You just are gonna let God be the

404
00:29:27.279 --> 00:29:33.400
executioner in this trial. You know, you still think that it's a legitimate

405
00:29:33.559 --> 00:29:37.440
court here. You're just letting God
be the judge instead of you. So,

406
00:29:37.079 --> 00:29:40.720
okay, that doesn't take away the
problem, which is that you think

407
00:29:40.759 --> 00:29:44.400
being LGBT is somehow inherently wrong.
And you also, especially when it comes

408
00:29:44.400 --> 00:29:47.319
to Islam, you also get into
these things. Same thing with Christianity.

409
00:29:47.799 --> 00:29:49.960
How many times we talked about slavery
in the Bible. With Christianity, right,

410
00:29:51.279 --> 00:29:52.839
Islam, of course, the same
thing happens. And you also see

411
00:29:52.920 --> 00:30:00.480
Muslims who will deny the marriage of
Aisha at six years old, which variety

412
00:30:00.519 --> 00:30:04.480
of Muslim scholars do attest to being
a historical fact. But you know,

413
00:30:04.559 --> 00:30:08.480
regardless, it doesn't matter because we
come up with these modern understandings of what

414
00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:11.319
it means to be right and wrong, and you try to have to rect

415
00:30:11.359 --> 00:30:15.720
directly apply it to your religion because
you find out that, oh there's some

416
00:30:15.799 --> 00:30:18.279
problematic stuff in there, that being
child marriage, right. So yeah,

417
00:30:18.359 --> 00:30:21.839
it's it's it's a tail as all
this time. Doesn't matter. If it's

418
00:30:21.839 --> 00:30:23.880
Islam doesn't matter, if it's Christianity
doesn't matter, if it's Buddhism. You

419
00:30:25.000 --> 00:30:29.160
find this across all the major world
religions in an ever ends it never will

420
00:30:29.319 --> 00:30:33.440
Richard, so fun absolutely agree.
Done. So, we have been telling

421
00:30:33.480 --> 00:30:40.279
you about our upcoming annual back Cruise
on Saturday, August twenty, twenty twenty

422
00:30:40.359 --> 00:30:42.839
three for a few weeks now,
and we like to announce that tickets hustled

423
00:30:42.880 --> 00:30:47.000
out, but there is still a
chance that you may be able to join

424
00:30:47.079 --> 00:30:49.519
us because we do have a ticket
wait list that you can sign up for

425
00:30:49.920 --> 00:30:53.400
just in case of the cancelations.
To join the wait list, visit tiny

426
00:30:53.519 --> 00:30:57.480
dot cc slash at back Cruise.
For those of you with tickets, you'll

427
00:30:57.480 --> 00:31:02.599
be joining the eighties community of Austin
for a fun summer evening on the water,

428
00:31:02.720 --> 00:31:07.000
conversing with like minded freethinkers like Forest
Valkai, j Mike Christie Powell and

429
00:31:07.240 --> 00:31:11.799
other hosts and crew of our various
shows. That is going to be so

430
00:31:11.880 --> 00:31:15.920
much fun. You can support the
ACA as well, and there are many

431
00:31:15.960 --> 00:31:19.759
ways to support tokedon and the ACA. You can get a new limited edition

432
00:31:19.880 --> 00:31:26.319
T shirt which is Satan the Lesser
Off two Evils. Visit tiny dot cc

433
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slash merch Aca to get them.
Now. Please like the video and subscribe

434
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435
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can become a channel member. Click
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436
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437
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438
00:31:47.519 --> 00:31:51.680
and we will read as many as
we are able to do. We have

439
00:31:51.880 --> 00:31:56.240
some great calls lining up, Dan
and you Actus the first one. I'm

440
00:31:56.240 --> 00:32:01.160
going to let you take choose the
next one, man, Okay, so

441
00:32:01.359 --> 00:32:06.480
maybe this one will be an interesting
one. Let's see we have and I'm

442
00:32:06.559 --> 00:32:09.279
going to try to pronounce your name. Natalka calling in from New York.

443
00:32:09.440 --> 00:32:13.759
Nataka, you are live on Talk
Heathen. What's up? Now? Tell

444
00:32:13.759 --> 00:32:15.880
you guys doing today? Doing well? Rank you help? You will we

445
00:32:15.960 --> 00:32:20.599
help you. Yeah, and it's
actually it's pronounced nataka nataka. Okay,

446
00:32:20.680 --> 00:32:23.400
I had a screener not that said
nataka with an L, but nataka.

447
00:32:23.440 --> 00:32:28.000
I will remember that. Thank you. What's going on? Most welcome?

448
00:32:28.119 --> 00:32:31.920
So I wanted to talk about free
will today, okay, from an interesting

449
00:32:32.039 --> 00:32:35.799
perspective and take it. Then let's
see if we can take it down a

450
00:32:35.880 --> 00:32:38.440
really interesting route. First of all, I was like to get you two

451
00:32:38.559 --> 00:32:42.680
could go over, and I wanted
to get the English quotes name Is it

452
00:32:42.720 --> 00:32:45.599
correct? Am I correct in saying
your name is John? Is that correct?

453
00:32:45.720 --> 00:32:51.039
Sorry? Richard? And I'm Scottish. Yeah, he's a Scottish man.

454
00:32:52.799 --> 00:32:55.880
Always give the accent. I'm half
English, house of Scottish. He's

455
00:32:55.920 --> 00:33:01.519
actually it's actually Ricardo, Ricardo g
Is we call him. Just go with

456
00:33:01.640 --> 00:33:06.599
what everyone is fine, I understand. I understand that we will all the

457
00:33:06.680 --> 00:33:09.359
same to your Americans. It's all
this. Yeah, it's that American privilege.

458
00:33:09.640 --> 00:33:13.480
Okay, think about Shrek. Okay, he's the same as the guy

459
00:33:13.640 --> 00:33:16.519
who did the Shrek voice. So
you know, right, one of these

460
00:33:16.640 --> 00:33:22.160
days I have a theory about the
no true Scotsman fallacy that would really I

461
00:33:22.240 --> 00:33:23.599
think, really, you shed some
light on it. It has nothing to

462
00:33:23.680 --> 00:33:27.920
do with free will, but I
think you find it quite interesting. Yeah,

463
00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:30.480
so what what is it you want
to talk about today? Free will?

464
00:33:30.559 --> 00:33:31.759
And what did you want to ask
me? Specifically? Go on?

465
00:33:32.160 --> 00:33:35.799
Okay, well Dan can chine and
then on this too if he wants.

466
00:33:36.480 --> 00:33:38.759
But first I have all I have
my theory of free will, but I

467
00:33:38.839 --> 00:33:44.599
wanted to see if you two could
run down then the ideas, the current

468
00:33:44.680 --> 00:33:50.039
themes, like the current ideas of
free will, like determinism versus totalitary and

469
00:33:50.079 --> 00:33:53.599
another concepts like maybe give some definitions
and then I'll throw out my ideas and

470
00:33:54.039 --> 00:33:58.519
like you guys can share you guys
think we have free will or what type?

471
00:33:58.680 --> 00:34:01.640
Because like if we don't have any
free will, I mean, do

472
00:34:01.720 --> 00:34:06.400
we have free will enough to have
our economy over our own bodies? And

473
00:34:06.440 --> 00:34:12.119
then are well about our ideas and
what we choose to think. So let's

474
00:34:12.280 --> 00:34:15.840
let's let's start at the beginning.
I think that you asked for a dumb

475
00:34:15.920 --> 00:34:22.320
down version. So for me,
there's three main ideas. There's there's libertarian

476
00:34:22.360 --> 00:34:24.719
free will, which means we can
we can act freely. There is a

477
00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:31.000
determinism, which means that we're kind
of whatever. We don't make the decisions.

478
00:34:31.159 --> 00:34:36.400
They are kind of made for us
via past events that have happened and

479
00:34:36.519 --> 00:34:39.360
past circumstances, and we are just
reacting to that. And although it appears

480
00:34:39.480 --> 00:34:44.280
like we're making the decision, where
not, actually we don't really have a

481
00:34:44.400 --> 00:34:47.599
choice. And there is compatibilism,
which is kind of a mixture between the

482
00:34:47.719 --> 00:34:52.840
two. Where I sit on it, I'm not entirely sure. This is

483
00:34:52.920 --> 00:34:57.199
one of those questions I've thought about
a lot, and I don't really have

484
00:34:57.320 --> 00:35:00.719
that answer. So if you watched
I think it was an atheistics arians last

485
00:35:00.719 --> 00:35:04.920
week, there was a lot of
talk on this conversation and you know,

486
00:35:05.079 --> 00:35:07.639
and different ideas, and I think
it was Jamike and Secularity were hosting,

487
00:35:07.840 --> 00:35:13.440
and they were kind of going down
the deterministic I'm not sure. I'm genuinely

488
00:35:13.480 --> 00:35:16.920
not sure. I think I think
if I said anything, I would probably

489
00:35:17.119 --> 00:35:24.679
fall somewhere between hard determinism and compatibilism. But I don't know where I've I

490
00:35:25.239 --> 00:35:30.039
really don't have an honest answer to
the question because I've not decided. Looking

491
00:35:30.079 --> 00:35:36.400
at the different ideas and the different
avenues i've I've I can't see that I'm

492
00:35:36.440 --> 00:35:40.599
convinced of any particular position on it
as at the moment, and it might

493
00:35:40.760 --> 00:35:45.559
change, but at the moment,
I think I've fall somewhere within that kind

494
00:35:45.599 --> 00:35:50.199
of region. Dan. Yeah,
So to give an entire taxonomy of the

495
00:35:50.280 --> 00:35:54.440
positions of free will is beyond the
scope of what a calling show like ours

496
00:35:54.519 --> 00:35:58.360
could could offer. I think Richard
gave a pretty good summation. I mean,

497
00:35:58.440 --> 00:36:01.800
there's like various subcategories and stuff in
between there. But what most people

498
00:36:01.840 --> 00:36:07.440
are interested in when they have this
conversation is between some version of determinism and

499
00:36:07.599 --> 00:36:13.079
some version of nondeterminism, right with
various categories in between there. So like

500
00:36:13.400 --> 00:36:15.559
I would fall if we're talking about
it in that binary, I would definitely

501
00:36:15.559 --> 00:36:22.360
fall into the determinist camp, specifically
like a physicalist sort of ontology, if

502
00:36:22.400 --> 00:36:25.719
you will about this. So,
like, I do believe that our will,

503
00:36:25.920 --> 00:36:29.960
our sense of consciousness, in our
sense of decision making, is the

504
00:36:30.039 --> 00:36:35.559
results of physical systems, and therefore
it can be changed through physical systems.

505
00:36:35.639 --> 00:36:38.199
So does that mean that I have
a conscious understanding or can I change the

506
00:36:38.280 --> 00:36:42.880
things that I can do? Maybe
I'm kind of with Richard on this,

507
00:36:42.920 --> 00:36:45.639
I'm not one hundred percent sure if
I would say definitively yes that I suppose

508
00:36:45.719 --> 00:36:49.920
that would make me some sort of
compatibilist, right, this idea that yeah,

509
00:36:49.960 --> 00:36:52.639
even though we have where the result
of physical phenomenon, we do have

510
00:36:52.840 --> 00:36:57.519
some sort of control within that phenomenon. What I like to think of as

511
00:36:57.559 --> 00:37:00.280
like computers, right, Like we
know computers are completely physical. There's very

512
00:37:00.320 --> 00:37:04.159
few people out there that would say, oh, yeah, there's some supernatural

513
00:37:04.199 --> 00:37:07.480
stuff happening with computers. But we're
able to change the output of computers all

514
00:37:07.519 --> 00:37:10.760
the time because we change the inputs. And I kind of think that's kind

515
00:37:10.760 --> 00:37:14.400
of like what people are, right. We just we change our inputs in

516
00:37:14.480 --> 00:37:16.639
ways that are so intuitive and so
natural to us. We don't really think

517
00:37:16.679 --> 00:37:21.840
about it as being in a physical
system, but it ultimately is. So

518
00:37:22.199 --> 00:37:24.480
whether that means something in the grand
scheme of things, whether the universe was

519
00:37:24.559 --> 00:37:29.639
determined from the very beginning, I
don't know, but I do lean towards

520
00:37:29.880 --> 00:37:34.360
more of an understanding that we are
physical systems where the result of physical processes,

521
00:37:34.519 --> 00:37:37.920
and so any changes that I make, whether it's my will, whether

522
00:37:37.960 --> 00:37:40.880
it's something I can ultimately control or
not, is going to be something physical,

523
00:37:42.000 --> 00:37:44.960
not something supernatural, not the result
of a soul, not the result

524
00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:49.199
of anything like that. So there
you go. That's my take. Well

525
00:37:49.280 --> 00:37:52.159
to jump on that then, And
I don't know if that was if you've

526
00:37:52.159 --> 00:37:55.760
ever thought about that idea of free
will as du composed to a computer system

527
00:37:55.800 --> 00:37:59.199
before, But if you were thinking
on your feet, kudos to you,

528
00:38:00.000 --> 00:38:04.199
because that was an extremely good thought
and an analogy. And to kind of

529
00:38:04.599 --> 00:38:07.000
pump back on that, and to
add to that, I'd like to say,

530
00:38:07.079 --> 00:38:12.119
like my theory of free will kind
of works, like some people have

531
00:38:12.519 --> 00:38:17.360
a level of determinism and compatiblism,
compatibilism going on. Some people operate maybe

532
00:38:17.480 --> 00:38:23.039
to a certain level of of of
is what is the free will to telitarian

533
00:38:23.119 --> 00:38:29.719
free will? Some people are totally
determinous, like maybe sociopaths and psychopaths that

534
00:38:29.840 --> 00:38:35.280
really can't control their actions but are
controlling directions to a such surgical degree that

535
00:38:35.360 --> 00:38:40.239
it is ridiculous because it's like they
have sociopaths almost have this level of control

536
00:38:40.400 --> 00:38:45.960
it non control going on about them. Well, I don't have that kind

537
00:38:45.039 --> 00:38:49.199
of this degree on that because if
you have a look at the statistics,

538
00:38:49.480 --> 00:38:53.039
if you have a look at the
statistics you'll actually find the many psychopaths are

539
00:38:53.039 --> 00:38:59.320
actually surgeons and things, and I
don't they really are because they actually helps

540
00:38:59.400 --> 00:39:04.719
them to kind of disassociate from from
the kind of thing they're doing. I

541
00:39:04.800 --> 00:39:08.199
don't think that's up there, like, yeah, this shaking good control of

542
00:39:08.280 --> 00:39:13.960
being certally struggling with whether they should
carry out with the action and all.

543
00:39:14.000 --> 00:39:16.039
I don't. I just don't think
it was. In reality, it's not

544
00:39:16.440 --> 00:39:19.960
going back to your metaphor. Right. Here's what I would say about this

545
00:39:20.199 --> 00:39:23.039
is that folks who struggle with psychopathy, right, and you have to remember

546
00:39:23.119 --> 00:39:27.000
that it's you know, there's gonna
be people out there even probably listening to

547
00:39:27.079 --> 00:39:30.880
this who have psychopathy. Doesn't mean
that they're going to be murderers and killers,

548
00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:34.719
right, But those who struggle with
psychopathy struggle with empathy, right,

549
00:39:34.800 --> 00:39:37.639
They struggle with that. And so
when you have that struggle, that means

550
00:39:37.719 --> 00:39:42.119
empathy is going to be less of
an input in your physical systems. Right,

551
00:39:42.159 --> 00:39:45.519
we're still physical systems. We have
various inputs. I care about what

552
00:39:45.679 --> 00:39:47.559
Richard has to say about me,
so I'm going to be nice to Richard.

553
00:39:47.719 --> 00:39:50.960
And he's also the producer of the
show, so he could kick me

554
00:39:51.039 --> 00:39:52.119
off at any second. And you
know what, I like being on the

555
00:39:52.199 --> 00:39:55.840
show. So I'm gonna do things
that are going to benefit my interests that

556
00:39:55.920 --> 00:40:00.960
also benefit Richard's interest. Someone who
struggles with psychopathy may not consider Richard's interest,

557
00:40:01.000 --> 00:40:06.000
so that input isn't going to be
as strong in their own physical system.

558
00:40:06.119 --> 00:40:08.039
But that's still they're just as physical
of a system as we are,

559
00:40:08.320 --> 00:40:13.679
right, They're not like inherently different
or even more of a computer or more

560
00:40:14.119 --> 00:40:17.400
you know, cold than than than
we are in that particular sense, right,

561
00:40:17.480 --> 00:40:21.840
It's just that their levels of inputs
are going to be different than ours.

562
00:40:22.360 --> 00:40:24.400
That's how I would define, right, So yeah, is it possible?

563
00:40:24.480 --> 00:40:28.000
Is it? Like? Basically,
so, what I'm trying to say

564
00:40:28.119 --> 00:40:30.800
is like for you, if I
endure like the one input for you and

565
00:40:30.920 --> 00:40:35.840
the same input for me, because
we might have a certain level of free

566
00:40:35.920 --> 00:40:39.280
will that might differ from ours because
of our upbringing and everything that's already been

567
00:40:39.400 --> 00:40:45.039
inputed into our systems, maybe we'll
get different results, going, I mean,

568
00:40:45.239 --> 00:40:49.920
we will, we will certainly wait
things differently, right. Another example

569
00:40:49.960 --> 00:40:52.639
of this is someone who is autistic, Right, Someone who is autistic might

570
00:40:53.039 --> 00:40:57.320
be more sensitive to sounds, might
be more sensitive to other kinds of things

571
00:40:57.400 --> 00:41:00.679
that's going to be weighted differently in
their physical systems, in my physical systems,

572
00:41:00.760 --> 00:41:02.719
right, Like, I think you
can apply this to a lot of

573
00:41:02.800 --> 00:41:07.159
things. But ultimately I'm not sure
if that I mean it has effects on

574
00:41:07.199 --> 00:41:10.400
our decision making. Whether you say
that means that we don't have free will

575
00:41:10.519 --> 00:41:13.719
or not, that's up to you, right, I don't know if that's

576
00:41:13.760 --> 00:41:15.639
what that truly means. But it
does affect our decision making, and it

577
00:41:15.800 --> 00:41:20.320
is going to affect our will.
But the point is we all have this,

578
00:41:20.639 --> 00:41:22.960
right. It's not that some people
are more robotic than others in that

579
00:41:23.079 --> 00:41:30.199
sense. We're all just physical systems
with different, different weighted inputs, if

580
00:41:30.239 --> 00:41:32.840
that makes sense. Right now,
since you two, since both both the

581
00:41:32.880 --> 00:41:38.119
gentlemen hosting Tonnight, Dan and are
both have kind of almost a mix of

582
00:41:38.199 --> 00:41:43.840
determinalistic and compatibilism going on, yet
you still would say you didn't know.

583
00:41:44.400 --> 00:41:47.639
Yet some other hosts would say they're
total determinists. I think some other hosts

584
00:41:47.679 --> 00:41:52.679
at the ACA would answer this question
up our different way, because like if

585
00:41:52.880 --> 00:41:58.199
if if some hosts are total determinist
they would ask, well, then I

586
00:41:58.239 --> 00:42:00.920
don't think they would say, well, we really have decisions. I don't

587
00:42:00.920 --> 00:42:04.280
think they would describe it as a
decision making process because if we don't,

588
00:42:04.320 --> 00:42:07.599
yeah we will, we're not really
making any decisions. Yeah, yeah,

589
00:42:07.719 --> 00:42:09.519
i'd say that's fair. I mean
again, they're gonna they're gonna describe different

590
00:42:09.559 --> 00:42:15.039
They're gonna have weight towards different philosophical
concepts than we would, right so,

591
00:42:15.440 --> 00:42:17.920
and that may be the result of
their own upbringing, their own ideas,

592
00:42:19.079 --> 00:42:22.639
their own philosophical training, and how
they understand the world. So yeah,

593
00:42:22.119 --> 00:42:24.880
I don't see a problem with that. That's just a route fact. We're

594
00:42:24.920 --> 00:42:28.400
gonna, we're gonna see things differently. Yeah, so there you go.

595
00:42:28.599 --> 00:42:31.119
They're taking my call. Guys.
I'm hoping we got the call because as

596
00:42:31.159 --> 00:42:34.599
I did. Yeah, absolutely,
I was excited, to be honest,

597
00:42:34.639 --> 00:42:37.039
I was expecting it to be a
bit more combatively. Yeah, yeah too.

598
00:42:40.079 --> 00:42:44.159
Appreciate you guys, Yeah yeah,
I thought i'd so easy on you

599
00:42:44.199 --> 00:42:46.440
guys with the last ball. You
guys handled that last ball quite brilliantly.

600
00:42:46.599 --> 00:42:50.199
Well, thank you for that.
Thank we appreciate it. Hey, Well,

601
00:42:50.239 --> 00:42:53.199
we're gonna let you do just just
really quickly. I want to share

602
00:42:53.239 --> 00:42:57.000
my my, my, my,
my, really quick theory on the note

603
00:42:57.000 --> 00:43:00.400
true Scotsman theory with Richard it'll be
it'll be ready. Yes, yes we

604
00:43:00.400 --> 00:43:02.199
wait, actually yes do that.
I was gonna say no time, but

605
00:43:02.320 --> 00:43:06.039
now yeah we have to do it. Yes, please do it. Yeah

606
00:43:06.119 --> 00:43:08.599
not even so, no true goodsman. I don't care about what they're eating

607
00:43:08.599 --> 00:43:13.519
in there, if they're putting sugar
in their ports ports. But no,

608
00:43:13.719 --> 00:43:17.199
true Scotsman was born out of Premnocta. That's where God damn certain No,

609
00:43:17.679 --> 00:43:23.760
no, no, no, thank
you for the call. Please please don't

610
00:43:23.800 --> 00:43:28.199
call back again if you have anything
else you want to talk to us about.

611
00:43:28.679 --> 00:43:31.960
I enjoyed that. I was sayin
in heads a little bit more on

612
00:43:32.039 --> 00:43:35.599
that. If if you've denied it, Richard, I would have said,

613
00:43:35.840 --> 00:43:39.639
that's a no true Scotsman. Richard
is not a true Scotsman, so his

614
00:43:39.800 --> 00:43:45.440
denial of it isn't actually yeah,
exactly. Okay, So let's have a

615
00:43:45.519 --> 00:43:50.519
look. You can support us on
Patreon. You can go to tiny dot

616
00:43:50.599 --> 00:43:54.639
cc slash Patreon t H and we
now have a channel that houses all of

617
00:43:54.719 --> 00:44:00.119
the shows on the A C A
in audio podcast form. You can is

618
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:06.079
it tiny dot cc slash eight n
podcasts and I because I'm over here in

619
00:44:06.880 --> 00:44:09.960
dear old Blighty, I don't often
get chance to Surrey, especially dance show

620
00:44:10.199 --> 00:44:14.599
Truth Wanted. I don't always get
to watch that live. So sometimes I

621
00:44:14.679 --> 00:44:17.400
will listen to that on the podcasts
on my way to work and I will

622
00:44:17.440 --> 00:44:22.239
catch up with that. And you
can do with you if the mister Saul's

623
00:44:22.280 --> 00:44:24.719
live, or if you just prefer
listening to podcasts, go to that platform

624
00:44:24.920 --> 00:44:30.039
tiny dot cc slash eight n podcasts. You can become part of the Talk

625
00:44:30.119 --> 00:44:36.519
Heathen communicating our fanroom facebook page at
tiny dot cc slash fb t HG.

626
00:44:36.960 --> 00:44:39.880
And also, in case you didn't
know, Talk Heathen has a TikTok and

627
00:44:40.159 --> 00:44:45.480
I was on their live before this
very short talking to people. We have

628
00:44:45.360 --> 00:44:49.639
some good shows on there on a
weekly basis, and if you weren't aware

629
00:44:49.679 --> 00:44:52.559
of that, go and join up. Go and follow us on TikTok and

630
00:44:52.639 --> 00:44:57.679
see all the good stuff. Subscribe
and join the pre show every week on

631
00:44:57.840 --> 00:45:01.559
Talk Heathen. We I really enjoy
doing the TikTok stuff and I know we

632
00:45:01.719 --> 00:45:07.920
have some yeah that stuff. It's
it's really cool I need to do.

633
00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:10.880
I haven't actually done a TikTok live
before the show and I probably should do

634
00:45:12.000 --> 00:45:14.079
that. Maybe next time I can
be the one to do it. But

635
00:45:14.320 --> 00:45:17.280
we have like a million usles right
now that we do have a million we

636
00:45:17.400 --> 00:45:22.159
have. Yeah. So we're going
to take Mike from Washington, who has

637
00:45:22.280 --> 00:45:28.480
answered the pole question and he is
saying that God is not evil? Mike,

638
00:45:28.800 --> 00:45:30.199
how are you? How are you
doing it? Very well? Thank

639
00:45:30.239 --> 00:45:32.760
you? What do you got first? Mike? Oh, I don't believe

640
00:45:32.800 --> 00:45:37.360
God is evil? Okay? Well
why is that justice? He's got a

641
00:45:37.480 --> 00:45:40.159
justice? Okay? Is it so? So he's not capable of being evil?

642
00:45:40.679 --> 00:45:44.679
Not? Not the way you describe
it? Okay, what we describe

643
00:45:44.719 --> 00:45:49.519
evil? Yeah, anything you don't
want done to yourself? Okay, So

644
00:45:50.039 --> 00:45:52.199
how does God describe evil doing the
others that you have others doing you,

645
00:45:52.400 --> 00:45:58.320
that neighbors yourself as back in because
and okay, in the way just in

646
00:45:58.400 --> 00:46:00.400
the way. Do you just describe
it to greatest commandments? You're familiar with

647
00:46:00.519 --> 00:46:04.719
that God with all your hearts all
in mind. And the second is like

648
00:46:04.840 --> 00:46:07.920
it which all the law and prophets
are hung. And that's like neighbor as

649
00:46:07.960 --> 00:46:12.000
yourself, or do unto others if
you have others do unto you? Okay.

650
00:46:12.079 --> 00:46:15.280
So what's an example of something that
I would think is evil and that

651
00:46:15.400 --> 00:46:17.599
God wouldn't think is evil, or
maybe vice versa. Well, I know

652
00:46:17.800 --> 00:46:22.960
there's something that you don't think is
evil. Is mutilating kids injected them with

653
00:46:23.039 --> 00:46:29.800
its hormones and uh testosterone and and
wait wait wait wait wait wait wait do

654
00:46:29.880 --> 00:46:35.199
you think I so so so God
isn't okay with that? No? Okay?

655
00:46:35.320 --> 00:46:37.840
So why does he let it happen? I mean grooming kids for LGBQ.

656
00:46:38.280 --> 00:46:42.679
You think God's for the gay community. Well, what happens in hell?

657
00:46:42.800 --> 00:46:44.960
I mean, is he not?
Is it not torturous? Is it

658
00:46:45.119 --> 00:46:47.159
not? Like you know, even
worse than what you just described, like

659
00:46:47.400 --> 00:46:52.519
is that not? Is he not
okay with? And it's destroyed? The

660
00:46:52.599 --> 00:46:55.960
soul is destroyed. I don't know
what scriptures it is at the moment.

661
00:46:57.079 --> 00:47:01.679
But because Kho can destroy kill the
body. Just second, do not be

662
00:47:01.760 --> 00:47:07.000
afraid of him who can destroy the
body, but be afraid of him who

663
00:47:07.039 --> 00:47:10.079
can destroy both body and soul in
hell? So he kills people. Oh,

664
00:47:10.199 --> 00:47:15.039
he's not not afraid any good reason. Not. But he kills people

665
00:47:15.400 --> 00:47:19.000
because I believe you just said that
we should be treating others like they would

666
00:47:19.039 --> 00:47:22.559
want to treat us and I don't
want to kill children. But you're saying

667
00:47:22.679 --> 00:47:25.119
God actually kills children all the time. Well, there's so there be any

668
00:47:25.239 --> 00:47:30.320
anything before any any child before the
age of consent, is their soul is

669
00:47:30.400 --> 00:47:35.039
saved that day. That's the age
of consent. God determines that. So

670
00:47:35.159 --> 00:47:37.840
you don't know what it is.
So how do you know that there's an

671
00:47:37.880 --> 00:47:40.679
age of consent? Well, well, I think it's thirteen what the Jews?

672
00:47:40.719 --> 00:47:45.079
Okay, So God kills fourteen year
olds and that's okay, God kills

673
00:47:45.159 --> 00:47:50.199
fourteen year olds and that's all right. Telling who murders the fourteen Oh he

674
00:47:50.280 --> 00:47:52.719
said fourteen years old? Now run
that? Yeah, well okay, So

675
00:47:52.840 --> 00:47:54.679
you're saying there's an age of consent
and as long as the kid is old

676
00:47:54.800 --> 00:47:59.599
enough, right, they have decision
whether accept God or not. So if

677
00:47:59.639 --> 00:48:02.039
there's a kid that's fourteen who doesn't
accept God and he dies, God can

678
00:48:02.480 --> 00:48:07.079
can just destroy their souls, right, And that's justice knowing justice. No,

679
00:48:07.480 --> 00:48:12.840
it's according to one's heart, like
like somebody who hasn't for somebody who

680
00:48:12.920 --> 00:48:15.880
hasn't heard the gospel message, it's
he'll be dealt with his way. He's

681
00:48:16.000 --> 00:48:20.159
dealt with other people in his planet. Okay, what I'm saying if what

682
00:48:20.280 --> 00:48:22.159
they've heard the gospel message and they're
fourteen years old and then they die,

683
00:48:22.199 --> 00:48:27.320
because undoubtedly that's happened. Right,
there's seven billion people on Earth just today.

684
00:48:27.440 --> 00:48:30.320
That's not including everybody that's ever lived. There's got to be some fourteen

685
00:48:30.360 --> 00:48:34.280
year olds that have rejected God and
have died. They get their souls destroyed,

686
00:48:34.559 --> 00:48:38.400
and that's justice. Well, they're
they'll be dealt justly in okay,

687
00:48:39.039 --> 00:48:44.440
and that means destroying their souls,
right, soul will be destroyed or they'll

688
00:48:44.599 --> 00:48:47.159
they'll inter paradise or hell. Okay, So is that justice? Then?

689
00:48:47.320 --> 00:48:51.480
If a kid, if a fourteen
year old child who rejects God gets their

690
00:48:51.519 --> 00:48:55.000
soul destroyed, that's justice. What
God's what God says is justice is justice.

691
00:48:55.159 --> 00:48:59.519
Okay. You know so it sounds
like your sense of justice is just

692
00:49:00.280 --> 00:49:04.079
listen to me and do what I
have to say as God of the universe,

693
00:49:04.280 --> 00:49:07.639
or else you get destroyed for all
of eternity. And earlier, I

694
00:49:07.760 --> 00:49:12.760
believe your criticism of our sense of
justice was if you don't do what I

695
00:49:12.960 --> 00:49:16.000
like, then that's evil. It
sounds like that's the literal exact same thing

696
00:49:16.079 --> 00:49:22.519
that God says. So what's the
difference. Make make children before the age

697
00:49:22.559 --> 00:49:25.880
of consent? Yeah, that they
can make decide to have their breast removed,

698
00:49:27.039 --> 00:49:30.039
fury bockers and all that stuff,
and then make them pray for gay

699
00:49:30.119 --> 00:49:32.960
people. Do you think that's that's
all right? You seem to be sticking

700
00:49:34.039 --> 00:49:37.199
to a very strange, narrow kind
of margin subject when there's so much we

701
00:49:37.239 --> 00:49:40.480
could talk about it. That is
interesting. I believe you said. I

702
00:49:40.559 --> 00:49:45.519
believe you said the evil was that
which we would not want done to ourselves,

703
00:49:45.840 --> 00:49:49.400
is correct? Is that what you
said? Yeah? Yeah, So

704
00:49:49.800 --> 00:49:57.199
Mike, would you want would you
want your children and yourself to be slaughtered?

705
00:49:57.480 --> 00:50:00.360
It's a simple question. It doesn't
really I require much thinking about.

706
00:50:01.360 --> 00:50:06.000
So would you would you say that
somebody? Would you say that somebody will

707
00:50:06.079 --> 00:50:10.000
commands whole families to be slaughtered is
evil? When by that definition of it,

708
00:50:13.000 --> 00:50:15.440
so they're not evil for commanding it? Is it defend it? Is

709
00:50:15.480 --> 00:50:20.119
it? Is it wrong to defend
your country? Right? Let's let's let's

710
00:50:20.360 --> 00:50:24.159
let's start that again. If somebody
commands nobodies have not mentioned defending your country?

711
00:50:24.320 --> 00:50:30.519
Whatsoever would you say that slaughtering an
entire people whole sets of families is

712
00:50:30.679 --> 00:50:36.519
evil? Men, women, and
children, infants? Right, right,

713
00:50:36.920 --> 00:50:39.880
Just answer the question and we'll get
to what we're talking about shortly. Well,

714
00:50:39.880 --> 00:50:44.599
I'm want to explain that from God's
point of view, he said the

715
00:50:44.679 --> 00:50:47.000
reason why that Jews were wandering around
for No, No, we're not.

716
00:50:47.239 --> 00:50:52.760
No, we're talking about your point
of view, because you stated categorically I

717
00:50:52.840 --> 00:50:55.440
seem to remember and you seem to
have just agreed with it, that evil

718
00:50:55.880 --> 00:51:00.719
is that which we would not want
done to ourselves? Is that correct?

719
00:51:00.840 --> 00:51:04.679
Look at I would expect to be
shocked. I was if I was going

720
00:51:04.719 --> 00:51:07.360
to rob somebody and they had a
guy. Why is it so difficult to

721
00:51:07.440 --> 00:51:12.239
answer a very very simple question,
Mike, Mike, is evil that's which

722
00:51:12.320 --> 00:51:15.199
we wouldn't want done to ourselves?
No, that's too simple. No,

723
00:51:15.519 --> 00:51:21.480
it's not too simple. It is
the definition you give of evil earlier on

724
00:51:21.599 --> 00:51:23.960
it in this very call. You're
now seem to be backtracking, and I'll

725
00:51:23.960 --> 00:51:29.960
tell you why you're backtracking. You're
backtracking because you have realized at this point,

726
00:51:30.400 --> 00:51:34.400
Mike, Mike, I will mutea
I will use I will use I

727
00:51:34.480 --> 00:51:37.199
will use a mute button if you
don't let me finish right. You're backtracking

728
00:51:37.480 --> 00:51:44.199
because you have realized that under your
own definition, your God is evil you.

729
00:51:44.639 --> 00:51:47.119
This is why you're now backtracking,
and you're saying it's not simple.

730
00:51:47.360 --> 00:51:52.000
If it's not that simple, you
shouldn't have given that definition. Me and

731
00:51:52.119 --> 00:51:54.760
Dan didn't give you that definition.
That's the one you offered to us.

732
00:51:55.079 --> 00:52:00.239
You said, evil is that which
we wouldn't want done to ourselves. Else

733
00:52:00.559 --> 00:52:04.000
that is that is the thing you
stated. Right, So that is the

734
00:52:04.079 --> 00:52:06.960
case, because two minutes ago you
said it wasn't. Yeah, yeah,

735
00:52:07.119 --> 00:52:13.400
let me let me explain though,
Luciday here you're running rings round yet I

736
00:52:13.480 --> 00:52:15.320
know that's what I do. Was
Mike, Mike, Mike, Mike.

737
00:52:15.920 --> 00:52:20.559
If God told you to kill somebody, right or wrong? Wrong? Wrong,

738
00:52:20.800 --> 00:52:22.880
So if God tells you you need
to murder somebody like that, that's

739
00:52:22.920 --> 00:52:25.880
wrong. Categorically, he doesn't tell
you to murder. He didn't tell me

740
00:52:27.000 --> 00:52:30.280
to murder anybody. Well, I
mean, didn't murder anybody. Anybody who

741
00:52:30.320 --> 00:52:32.039
lives by the sword dies by the
sword. Okay, yeah, but but

742
00:52:32.480 --> 00:52:36.960
one, I mean Richards already made
allusions to pastors in the Old Testament.

743
00:52:37.000 --> 00:52:39.000
But even beyond that, why does
God get to kill people. What's the

744
00:52:39.079 --> 00:52:45.320
differences their creator? And he knows
hard man, he look. But doing

745
00:52:45.440 --> 00:52:47.159
unto others, you should do unto
others what they should want unto you.

746
00:52:47.360 --> 00:52:51.559
Right, Hey, would you kill
Jeffrey Dahmer if he knew it, knew

747
00:52:51.599 --> 00:52:54.239
what his future was? Sir?
The media knights were not Jeffrey Dahmer.

748
00:52:54.639 --> 00:52:59.400
We also do you know what the
media knights crimes? The media? Maybe

749
00:52:59.440 --> 00:53:06.679
you were, Mike. The media
knights crime, Sir, was worshiping other

750
00:53:06.760 --> 00:53:10.719
gods, worshiping idols in the eyes
of God. This means that God thought

751
00:53:10.800 --> 00:53:15.800
it just to murder them for that
crime and their children. So in this

752
00:53:16.000 --> 00:53:22.360
world now we have many millions of
people who do not follow the God that

753
00:53:22.440 --> 00:53:27.440
you follow. They followed different gods
and worship different gods. So by that

754
00:53:27.840 --> 00:53:31.800
very standard, it is just under
that system for all of those people to

755
00:53:31.920 --> 00:53:36.360
be commanded by God to be gone
out and murdered. Is that correct or

756
00:53:36.480 --> 00:53:39.480
not? It's not their god we're
talking about. We're talking about the God

757
00:53:39.519 --> 00:53:43.400
of the Bible God. I know, we're talking about the God of the

758
00:53:43.440 --> 00:53:47.840
Bible. Our baccup courst is sat
at the minute with his head in his

759
00:53:49.000 --> 00:53:53.679
hands, shaking his head in despair
because of the knots you're tying yourself in.

760
00:53:53.880 --> 00:53:57.719
I'm going to let Dan take over
for just a minute. Oh,

761
00:53:57.800 --> 00:54:00.480
I'm just I'm more interested in this
cor idea of what's right and wrong,

762
00:54:00.639 --> 00:54:06.360
because if you have a God that
violates this idea of right and wrong,

763
00:54:06.679 --> 00:54:08.840
I can't call him a just god. Right, A just God, I

764
00:54:08.960 --> 00:54:12.679
think you would agree, or maybe
you don't tell me if you don't,

765
00:54:12.880 --> 00:54:17.239
is one that follows a core just
set of principles right, and it's the

766
00:54:17.440 --> 00:54:22.400
violation of said principles that we would
call them unjust. I mean, would

767
00:54:22.400 --> 00:54:24.239
you agree that that's what would make
a just God? Or do you think

768
00:54:24.280 --> 00:54:30.000
that there's something else? Here's a
difference. You aren't God, I'm not

769
00:54:30.360 --> 00:54:34.840
God. But God knows the man's
the man's heart, hit the man's thoughts.

770
00:54:35.000 --> 00:54:37.599
You don't. I don't, Okay, okay? So what what the

771
00:54:37.679 --> 00:54:39.800
fact that he knows our hearts?
What does that mean? How does that

772
00:54:39.880 --> 00:54:44.559
make him good? Satan presumably knows
our thoughts and knows our hearts. That's

773
00:54:44.599 --> 00:54:46.119
why he tempts us to do things? Does that make him God? Does

774
00:54:46.159 --> 00:54:50.920
that make him just? Stampt us? He doesn't stampt anybody. Wait,

775
00:54:51.039 --> 00:54:54.280
what do you mean? What?
Wait, what are you talking about?

776
00:54:55.639 --> 00:54:59.360
It's my choice. No, it's
not my choice whether to go to heaven

777
00:54:59.480 --> 00:55:01.119
or hell. Right, God decides
that, right, he's literally judge.

778
00:55:01.480 --> 00:55:04.920
Yeah, but you don't. You
don't, you don't want it. Okay,

779
00:55:04.960 --> 00:55:07.239
So it's not my choice. No, no, no, it's not

780
00:55:07.440 --> 00:55:08.719
my choice. You just said it's
my choice, but it's not. It's

781
00:55:08.840 --> 00:55:13.519
literally God's choice. Yeah, okay, so it's not my choice. So

782
00:55:13.760 --> 00:55:16.039
God can decide. I whim and
just say, actually, you know what,

783
00:55:16.159 --> 00:55:20.440
Dan, You're going to hell.
And you would say that's just he

784
00:55:20.519 --> 00:55:22.039
doesn't have to give a reason,
right, you would just say, that's

785
00:55:22.119 --> 00:55:25.039
just you're getting the one right now. You don't you don't believe in him.

786
00:55:25.119 --> 00:55:29.360
You don't believe in his Commandment's his
judgment, right, I don't believe

787
00:55:29.360 --> 00:55:34.199
in his commandment. So I deserve
to be eternally destroyed. Never have my

788
00:55:34.280 --> 00:55:37.360
friends or family ever see me again, because I'm on a talk show on

789
00:55:37.440 --> 00:55:42.320
a Sunday afternoon saying God's not real
And you think that's just well, hey,

790
00:55:42.440 --> 00:55:45.519
it's appoint at once for man to
die and then judgment. You can

791
00:55:45.599 --> 00:55:47.639
talk it over with God. This
riddles. This is riddles, Mike.

792
00:55:47.760 --> 00:55:51.480
You don't talk like this in your
daily life, right. You don't talk

793
00:55:51.559 --> 00:55:54.480
like this to your friends and family. If if if your neighborhood boy stole

794
00:55:54.599 --> 00:55:58.239
from you, you wouldn't start talking
in these riddles. You'd say, hey,

795
00:55:58.280 --> 00:56:00.000
man, that's wrong. I need
to get this act because it is

796
00:56:00.159 --> 00:56:05.079
very simple. But for some reason, when it comes to the complete destruction

797
00:56:05.199 --> 00:56:08.480
of human beings for all of eternity, we have to go into these weird

798
00:56:08.679 --> 00:56:14.039
circles and talking these these these weird
riddles about what makes something right or wrong?

799
00:56:14.159 --> 00:56:16.360
Because you know this is fucking wrong, Mike. You know it's wrong,

800
00:56:16.559 --> 00:56:21.719
right, It's wrong to just eternally
destroy people for just acts of speech.

801
00:56:22.079 --> 00:56:24.960
Right. I'm not Jeffrey Dahmer,
Mike, I didn't fucking kill people.

802
00:56:25.079 --> 00:56:28.880
I'm just saying I don't think God
is real and for some reason that

803
00:56:29.119 --> 00:56:34.239
justifies either one eternal torment or two
eternal destruction. How the fuck does that

804
00:56:34.360 --> 00:56:37.559
make it right? What's just about
that? Well? I just told you

805
00:56:37.719 --> 00:56:40.360
how you know, when you die
you get to talk it all with God?

806
00:56:40.639 --> 00:56:44.760
Yeah, because God says so,
right, because he's the fucking dictator

807
00:56:45.199 --> 00:56:49.639
of heaven. Right, And we
have to all all hell the great dictator,

808
00:56:49.719 --> 00:56:52.480
Mike, is that your reasoning just
whatever the dictator says goes? A

809
00:56:52.519 --> 00:56:55.840
good father do you have? Have
you had a father, a father figure?

810
00:56:55.920 --> 00:56:59.360
Do you have a father, Mike? What about him? What's a

811
00:56:59.400 --> 00:57:01.679
good father like? You know what? A good father doesn't say? Do

812
00:57:01.800 --> 00:57:06.360
what I say because I said so. A good father tells you why something

813
00:57:06.480 --> 00:57:12.800
is right or wrong, Mike,
will happen otherwise. Yes, a good

814
00:57:12.880 --> 00:57:15.679
father will tell you the consequences of
his actions. But the consequences are not

815
00:57:15.800 --> 00:57:20.679
the result of a father destroying you
for eternally. Again, I really need

816
00:57:20.760 --> 00:57:22.360
to make this point clear. Right. My father is a mortal man.

817
00:57:22.760 --> 00:57:25.480
He has a mortal understanding of the
world, and he's gonna do what he

818
00:57:25.559 --> 00:57:30.320
thinks is best for his son.
What's best for me isn't my eternal destruction.

819
00:57:30.480 --> 00:57:34.960
Because I said I don't believe in
God, my father doesn't have any

820
00:57:34.960 --> 00:57:37.760
control over that. The God of
heaven could easily say, oh, I'm

821
00:57:37.840 --> 00:57:42.239
here. Actually, here's good evidence
for me to exist, and that be

822
00:57:42.320 --> 00:57:44.760
fine. I would say, Okay, he exists. He could be an

823
00:57:44.760 --> 00:57:46.239
asshole, but at least he exists. There's a lot of people that are

824
00:57:46.239 --> 00:57:50.599
assholes and exist. But God doesn't
do that, Mike, because he's not

825
00:57:50.760 --> 00:57:55.280
real. I don't know what to
tell you. Is world to live depends

826
00:57:55.440 --> 00:57:59.320
on if you're privileged enough to live
in a first world country or not.

827
00:57:59.519 --> 00:58:00.719
For the most part, and even
the actually that's not true. There's a

828
00:58:00.960 --> 00:58:05.280
lot of plenty of people that have
great lives in places outside the first world.

829
00:58:05.639 --> 00:58:07.480
It depends on where you live and
where where, who you are,

830
00:58:07.559 --> 00:58:12.119
and what race you are and what
class you are born into. Basically,

831
00:58:12.199 --> 00:58:17.880
it's better for some people than others. Unfortunately. Good what good? What

832
00:58:19.320 --> 00:58:22.920
what does that mean? Do craw
Dad's good? What? Yeah? Anyway,

833
00:58:22.679 --> 00:58:24.800
I don't know what the fuck that
means, Mike, here's the deal.

834
00:58:25.119 --> 00:58:29.280
Be a man about this. Oh, I'm using to be a man.

835
00:58:29.400 --> 00:58:31.159
Card. Let's be a man about
this. Do I deserve hell?

836
00:58:31.440 --> 00:58:35.199
Do I deserve eternal suffering? Yes? Or no? At the moment you

837
00:58:35.280 --> 00:58:38.280
do? You can eat? Okay? And why is that because I because

838
00:58:38.320 --> 00:58:42.599
God says I do? Why?
Why why do I deserve it? Due?

839
00:58:42.639 --> 00:58:45.159
Not to steal? To treat others
that you want to be treat it

840
00:58:46.599 --> 00:58:51.400
Rock seven eleven is for your assessment
and put people out of work because you

841
00:58:51.480 --> 00:58:53.760
know you're too lazy that you mean
you enjoy stealing. You know why the

842
00:58:53.760 --> 00:58:57.559
stuff we talk about stealing, Mike, I'm not stealing anything. I'm just

843
00:58:57.679 --> 00:59:01.679
talking about me, just me objectively. Dan here talking to you. Society

844
00:59:01.800 --> 00:59:07.239
can't. You can't. If everybody
decides to be a thief, society won't

845
00:59:07.280 --> 00:59:10.960
work. There's a reason why there's
not talking talking in riddles. I don't

846
00:59:10.960 --> 00:59:15.119
know, Rich, I'm kind of
done with this conversation. I think me

847
00:59:15.280 --> 00:59:20.039
too, Mike. Go and have
a think about things, because you've tied

848
00:59:20.039 --> 00:59:23.159
yourself up quite a lot during this
conversation. And to be honest when you

849
00:59:23.360 --> 00:59:29.920
when you end by kind of straw
man in Dan and pointing out that it

850
00:59:30.199 --> 00:59:34.760
is going to go to hell because
he's eaves and I don't believe that to

851
00:59:34.840 --> 00:59:37.719
be true. I don't think that
even if he did, he wouldn't be

852
00:59:37.800 --> 00:59:40.239
going to hell because of it.
Mike, give us a call back another

853
00:59:40.280 --> 00:59:44.400
time. When you've actually thought about
what you're saying, rather than just coming

854
00:59:44.440 --> 00:59:49.239
on the same stuff, it makes
conversations much easier. Mike had a tendency

855
00:59:49.360 --> 00:59:53.239
to tie himself up in riddles,
a little biting that call. Yeah,

856
00:59:53.360 --> 00:59:58.239
but go on, go on,
go on, You're no, I did

857
00:59:58.320 --> 01:00:00.920
can't take over there. You know
what, I you appreciate it because when

858
01:00:00.960 --> 01:00:02.559
I tell someone, hey, when
I said be a man, what I

859
01:00:02.639 --> 01:00:05.639
really want to say is like,
hey, tell me that I'm gonna go

860
01:00:05.679 --> 01:00:07.039
to hell, and then I deserve
it, because like ninety percent at the

861
01:00:07.119 --> 01:00:10.360
time people will be wishy washy about
it. At least he says I deserve

862
01:00:10.440 --> 01:00:14.719
hell. Now he said I deserve
hell because I'm steeling or something. Honestly,

863
01:00:14.760 --> 01:00:16.679
I didn't really catch that part,
but you know what, like that's

864
01:00:16.719 --> 01:00:21.119
the thing, right, The point
with this is you have everyone has their

865
01:00:21.159 --> 01:00:23.840
own sense of justice, and their
own sense of justice most of the time

866
01:00:24.159 --> 01:00:29.320
is in very much contradiction with God's
sense of justice, and just pointing this

867
01:00:29.440 --> 01:00:32.920
out somehow really brings out that cognitive
distance. We're so easy to say,

868
01:00:34.000 --> 01:00:37.400
oh, yes, all these people
deserve hell and torment, and suddenly when

869
01:00:37.440 --> 01:00:38.400
you put a face on it and
says, oh, so I should just

870
01:00:38.519 --> 01:00:43.199
go there like right now if I
die, that's just suddenly suddenly it's like,

871
01:00:43.320 --> 01:00:46.159
oh, well, you know,
it's this kind of wishy washy answer

872
01:00:47.159 --> 01:00:52.079
anyway. Indeed, indeed, he
was, I'm slightly disciplined pointed that,

873
01:00:52.159 --> 01:00:54.519
yeah, explained yourself because he was
me Saya thinking you would go and go

874
01:00:54.679 --> 01:01:00.119
alpha mail on us as well,
I know, be a man. You

875
01:01:00.159 --> 01:01:05.559
know what, I immediately regretted my
word choice because there's connotations to that phrase

876
01:01:05.599 --> 01:01:07.639
now that you can't that anyway.
The whole thing I'm gonna start, I'm

877
01:01:07.639 --> 01:01:10.280
gonna start like talking about the red
pill and stuff. This this is the

878
01:01:10.280 --> 01:01:15.760
start of my downfall. You know. Uh, we do have many people

879
01:01:15.840 --> 01:01:19.079
on the lines. But before we
get to an animal call is I'm just

880
01:01:19.199 --> 01:01:22.760
going to give a shout out to
our top five patrons who done is very

881
01:01:22.840 --> 01:01:24.480
kindly going to read out for us. Oh, I get to read the

882
01:01:24.519 --> 01:01:28.840
patrons. Okay, let's do it. So. Number one on our list

883
01:01:29.000 --> 01:01:32.920
is the inevitable Dingleberry Jackson. Number
two is a yam A, Number three

884
01:01:34.280 --> 01:01:38.159
is Dion Lache, Number four is
Oops All Singularity, and number five is

885
01:01:38.480 --> 01:01:42.519
deaveor Belgian. Thank you guys so
much for donating, and of course,

886
01:01:42.559 --> 01:01:46.519
our honorable mention this week goes to
Benjamin Ravita. Thank you all for donating

887
01:01:46.559 --> 01:01:51.760
on the talk. Heathan Patreon,
You're awesome, you're cool and you're good

888
01:01:51.840 --> 01:01:55.880
looking. Also, I can I
can say that inevitably yeah yeah, and

889
01:01:57.239 --> 01:02:00.599
inevitably through your patron and it makes
you mensely good looking as well. Yeah,

890
01:02:00.719 --> 01:02:05.599
yeah, it does. AA wants
you to know what's going on in

891
01:02:05.639 --> 01:02:09.079
our community, and for that we've
got an updated website. Head to www.

892
01:02:09.400 --> 01:02:15.079
Dot Atheist hyphen Community dot org,
where you can learn about the organization

893
01:02:15.159 --> 01:02:17.960
itself, it's policies and how you
can get involved. And we want to

894
01:02:19.119 --> 01:02:21.760
hear from you. We want to
know what your lights, what your thought

895
01:02:21.880 --> 01:02:23.800
was effective, and more importantly,
what you thought we could do better.

896
01:02:24.119 --> 01:02:30.719
So emailers at TV it's Etheist hyphen
Community dot org and letters know we are

897
01:02:30.800 --> 01:02:36.000
going to jump straight in to another
one. And I don't know which one

898
01:02:36.039 --> 01:02:37.559
to take. Dan, have you
got any preference because we've got so many

899
01:02:37.639 --> 01:02:42.280
calls, We've got so many callers. You want to talk to armed,

900
01:02:42.599 --> 01:02:45.239
Let's go with Ahmed. Yeah,
Ahmed in Bangladesh, let's do it.

901
01:02:45.280 --> 01:02:50.280
I don't think i've talked to horror
from Bangladesh on this program. Ahmed,

902
01:02:50.440 --> 01:02:54.440
how are you doing? Hello?
How are you? We're doing great?

903
01:02:54.480 --> 01:02:59.239
Amen? Thanks for calling from Bangladesh. I don't know what time zone is

904
01:02:59.320 --> 01:03:01.719
there, but it's probably really crazy
relative to ours. So tell us what

905
01:03:01.800 --> 01:03:05.320
you got? Yes? Can you
repeat? Oh? Yeah, So I

906
01:03:05.639 --> 01:03:08.519
see from the cast screener that you
have something you want to talk about involving

907
01:03:08.719 --> 01:03:13.519
scientific miracles in the Quran. Is
that right? Yes? Okay, So

908
01:03:14.199 --> 01:03:16.360
I want to talk about them.
Quran, chapter number twenty two one,

909
01:03:16.480 --> 01:03:22.800
Worth number thirteen. There's alas said, have the have have the disbelievers not

910
01:03:22.039 --> 01:03:29.519
seeing that the heavens and the earth
were joined entity and we separate them and

911
01:03:29.880 --> 01:03:36.639
made everything from water, every living
thing from water? Will they not believe?

912
01:03:36.760 --> 01:03:39.679
So? Allah hair is talking about
the big bank, and is he?

913
01:03:39.760 --> 01:03:49.400
Now? Is he? Let's let's
start there, which Ahmed Yah,

914
01:03:49.719 --> 01:03:52.239
did you say the big bank?
So the big bank? Because in the

915
01:03:52.320 --> 01:03:57.079
Big Bank at the singularity, the
heaven and the Earth were the heavens and

916
01:03:57.159 --> 01:04:00.440
the earth weren't joined. The Earth
wasn't there. Yeah, and there wasn't

917
01:04:00.480 --> 01:04:05.199
water either, unless talking about he
created every living thing from water. Now

918
01:04:05.320 --> 01:04:10.039
let's go back this. Let's go
back to the previous point, not jump

919
01:04:10.119 --> 01:04:14.320
forward. Let's stick to the criticism
we're just made. That is definitively wrong

920
01:04:14.639 --> 01:04:18.639
that the Kuran states the heaven and
the Earth were not joined in the singularity

921
01:04:18.960 --> 01:04:23.079
at the Big Bang. So the
Kuran is wrong. What is your response

922
01:04:23.159 --> 01:04:28.239
to that, this space, the
matter, everything were joined in the singularity.

923
01:04:28.519 --> 01:04:31.119
No, everything wasn't joined in the
singularity. Everything was potential in the

924
01:04:31.199 --> 01:04:35.760
singularity. They weren't separate entities which
were joined together. The Earth wasn't there

925
01:04:36.119 --> 01:04:40.800
joined to the heavens. They didn't
exist at that time. They were not

926
01:04:40.960 --> 01:04:44.920
joined to The Koran is wrong.
No, I think you're reinterpreting it.

927
01:04:45.280 --> 01:04:50.599
No. Im. What you are
doing is called post hoc rationalization, where

928
01:04:50.840 --> 01:04:57.000
you take something which is written,
and when some further knowledge comes along,

929
01:04:57.119 --> 01:05:00.559
you apply that further knowledge to that
thing which is written. But in this

930
01:05:00.719 --> 01:05:03.800
case it is not the case.
I can give you a pretty decent description

931
01:05:04.159 --> 01:05:09.119
of what happened during the process of
the Big Bang. Can you tell me

932
01:05:09.519 --> 01:05:14.639
where the Koran tells us that process
happening never mentioned a thing? Sorry?

933
01:05:14.679 --> 01:05:21.119
Can you repeat that? So Kuran
never mentioned that singularity or the Big Bang?

934
01:05:21.440 --> 01:05:25.400
Yes, I know that the Kuran
never mentions the singularity or the Big

935
01:05:25.440 --> 01:05:29.480
Bang. This is the problem.
This is how why your post talk rationalizing

936
01:05:29.559 --> 01:05:33.400
it into there. Do you agree
that's mentioning? Do you agree that saying

937
01:05:33.559 --> 01:05:39.400
that the Earth and the heavens were
joined together. Is not a description of

938
01:05:39.480 --> 01:05:44.360
the singularity. Yes, you do. So you're you're called in to say

939
01:05:44.400 --> 01:05:47.000
that the scientific miracles in the Koran. The first one you gave us was

940
01:05:47.400 --> 01:05:53.119
that the Koran mentions the Big Bang. And you're now recounting that, you're

941
01:05:53.159 --> 01:05:56.639
saying, actually you're wrong on that
point. Yes, I think that's very

942
01:05:56.679 --> 01:06:00.920
good. Thank you. I appreciate
that that was relatively simportant. Maybe just

943
01:06:00.000 --> 01:06:03.639
need to move on then, yeah, yeah, going up and look at

944
01:06:03.639 --> 01:06:08.320
the other rather than rather than going
through lots and lots of different claims,

945
01:06:08.719 --> 01:06:12.199
go back and look at the other
ideas you think you've got about the Quran

946
01:06:12.480 --> 01:06:16.079
and science, and just look at
them yourself and talk yourself through them.

947
01:06:16.119 --> 01:06:19.320
Like we've just had that conversation.
Hammada, I'm gonna let you go.

948
01:06:19.559 --> 01:06:24.960
I really really appreciate the false rightness, and honestly, yeah, I don't

949
01:06:24.960 --> 01:06:27.280
know if there's a genuine to do. I don't know if there's a language

950
01:06:27.320 --> 01:06:30.440
barrier there or what. But regardless, there are many, many, many,

951
01:06:30.480 --> 01:06:33.559
many Muslims that make the claim.
Oh, look, the Koran,

952
01:06:33.960 --> 01:06:40.360
particularly the Koran, makes these claims
about science, and we can know the

953
01:06:40.480 --> 01:06:44.679
Koran is truth based on the scientific
claims that it makes and how science has

954
01:06:44.679 --> 01:06:47.159
like later been able to prove the
truth of these claims. This is just

955
01:06:47.360 --> 01:06:51.800
one of many that are used in
this So it's just, yeah, it's

956
01:06:51.800 --> 01:06:56.440
just not true. That's not how
the Big Bang talks about the creation of

957
01:06:56.639 --> 01:07:00.400
the universe. Doesn't talk about the
Earth and the heavens being one single mass

958
01:07:00.719 --> 01:07:02.639
or anything like that. It's a
little bit more complicated than that. So

959
01:07:03.119 --> 01:07:08.000
yeah, yeah, that's gone.
With another call, let's jump in with

960
01:07:08.320 --> 01:07:12.880
Marissa, who wants to talk about
the possibility of a higher power. Marissa,

961
01:07:13.400 --> 01:07:15.599
Oh, I'm well, how are
you really good? Thank you?

962
01:07:16.199 --> 01:07:23.079
So what is it specifically we want
to talk about. Well, I I've

963
01:07:23.159 --> 01:07:28.119
grown up on television. I'm not
gonna lie. Give you a little background

964
01:07:28.719 --> 01:07:34.480
as far as how I've come to
warn at right now. I grew up

965
01:07:34.639 --> 01:07:43.000
Christian with a Celtic pagan mother.
I grew up in the South, so

966
01:07:43.159 --> 01:07:48.440
I was surrounded by a lot of
Southern Baptists Jehovah's Witness and I was even

967
01:07:49.880 --> 01:07:56.119
I was so hardcore into it that
I was going door to door asking have

968
01:07:56.239 --> 01:08:01.159
you heard the good news? So
very very hard core Christian and whenever.

969
01:08:01.519 --> 01:08:08.239
But whenever it came to death,
the loss of a loved one, nothing

970
01:08:08.440 --> 01:08:15.079
ever solidly stuck. You know.
I couldn't accept the whole uh if God's

971
01:08:15.159 --> 01:08:19.560
will that sort of thing, you
know. And so I started opening up

972
01:08:19.840 --> 01:08:26.800
my mind and I started talking to
my mother about it, and she introduced

973
01:08:26.840 --> 01:08:32.359
me to paganist By even then,
whenever it came to guess nothing made sense.

974
01:08:32.560 --> 01:08:39.560
There was always some vague excuse as
to why, why, Why things

975
01:08:39.680 --> 01:08:43.760
happen the way they happen. Everything
happens for a reason, and I just

976
01:08:43.960 --> 01:08:48.039
I can't accept that. And so
at this point in my life, I'm

977
01:08:48.840 --> 01:08:57.920
bordering on theism and atheism, where
Like, I don't think that there's anything

978
01:08:58.159 --> 01:09:02.359
really out there, but if there
is, this is the possibility. And

979
01:09:02.560 --> 01:09:08.840
that's the topic that I'm trying to
get to today. Okay, so I've

980
01:09:09.399 --> 01:09:13.479
got a response to this book.
I was never theeased. So before I

981
01:09:13.640 --> 01:09:15.960
kind of give you my opinion,
I'm going to pass you on over to

982
01:09:15.039 --> 01:09:20.039
DNA was taken that journey himself.
Yeah, and as can speak from experience.

983
01:09:20.359 --> 01:09:25.279
Look you say this, so you
say there's a possibility that theism could

984
01:09:25.359 --> 01:09:30.319
be true, and I would agree
that if we're just talking about general theism.

985
01:09:30.359 --> 01:09:32.479
We're not talking about like Christianity in
particular, but theism. I mean,

986
01:09:32.640 --> 01:09:35.840
there could maybe be a possibility that
it's true. Sure, but what

987
01:09:35.880 --> 01:09:39.680
do you think the likelihood of that
possibility is? If you could put like

988
01:09:39.760 --> 01:09:41.840
a number on it, What do
you think you were at right now?

989
01:09:41.960 --> 01:09:47.039
I'm like, I'm one of those
people that gives percentages on everything even though

990
01:09:47.319 --> 01:09:55.039
I know absolutely no statistics. So
honestly, the possibility of there being something

991
01:09:55.199 --> 01:09:59.520
out there, yeah, I give
it a good twenty five percent of possibility

992
01:10:00.000 --> 01:10:04.960
simply because I have to put rash
some sort of reason behind everything. That's

993
01:10:05.079 --> 01:10:09.000
just the way my mind. You
know, Sure, and I agree.

994
01:10:09.000 --> 01:10:11.560
I think it's good to put reasons. It's good to have reasons for why

995
01:10:11.640 --> 01:10:14.840
you believe the things that you do. Right, So the next question that

996
01:10:15.119 --> 01:10:17.840
immediately follows this, then, yeah, that's something that I would ask myself,

997
01:10:18.000 --> 01:10:20.439
and what I recommend you ask yourself, because it sounds like you're already

998
01:10:20.479 --> 01:10:26.239
doing this, is what would raise
this probability? What would raise this percentage

999
01:10:26.319 --> 01:10:30.399
and what would lower it? So
what would be an example of something that

1000
01:10:30.479 --> 01:10:33.000
would raise this would make you more
confident? In the idea that theism is

1001
01:10:33.039 --> 01:10:43.319
true, a true spiritual experience such
as Okay, anything from as beautiful as

1002
01:10:44.760 --> 01:10:50.920
a vivid dream with an angel that
pops in like like with Joseph telling or

1003
01:10:51.159 --> 01:10:56.479
with the angel telling Joseph that Mary
is coming to be pregnant, and blah

1004
01:10:56.520 --> 01:11:02.159
blah blah all the way into as
bad as something like the idea of stigmata.

1005
01:11:03.000 --> 01:11:06.279
Okay, yeah, if I were
to experience something like that, I

1006
01:11:06.359 --> 01:11:13.479
would truly believe that there is a
higher deity, a true conscious and and

1007
01:11:14.079 --> 01:11:17.920
and active deity somewhere else. Okay, Okay, that's that's a I think

1008
01:11:17.960 --> 01:11:25.359
that's a great example. Right,
Personally, experiencing something inexplicable might raise your

1009
01:11:25.479 --> 01:11:30.159
personal probability as to uh theazzy being
true. Right, So conversely, I

1010
01:11:30.199 --> 01:11:33.880
would like to know what would lower
that chance for you, if you can

1011
01:11:33.920 --> 01:11:41.119
think of anything, just kind honestly, just the lack of evidence, the

1012
01:11:41.239 --> 01:11:44.720
lack of proof. Okay, yeah, I think that's I think that's fair.

1013
01:11:45.520 --> 01:11:47.720
So, so at this point,
I can't tell you what you should

1014
01:11:47.760 --> 01:11:49.560
or should believe, or what you
can or can't believe. I mean,

1015
01:11:49.600 --> 01:11:53.680
I'll give you my opinion, right, and Richard can give you yours.

1016
01:11:53.920 --> 01:11:58.199
Here's why we we lack that belief. Right, Here's why even despite some

1017
01:11:58.439 --> 01:12:02.359
of which some of the examples you've
given of what could make theism true,

1018
01:12:02.439 --> 01:12:09.439
why we still resound calling ourselves something
that's not theism could be agnosticism, could

1019
01:12:09.439 --> 01:12:12.439
be atheists. Different hosts have different
opinions for themselves, but they want to

1020
01:12:12.479 --> 01:12:15.319
call ourselves. But none of us
call ourselves theists. And the biggest reason

1021
01:12:15.399 --> 01:12:18.079
why is because for the exact examples
that you mentioned, the stuff that would

1022
01:12:18.199 --> 01:12:23.560
likely make theism more true, we
haven't experience for ourselves. Right, there's

1023
01:12:23.600 --> 01:12:28.079
no hosts at the ACA that have
had any personal, inexplicable experiences that they

1024
01:12:28.159 --> 01:12:31.359
think makes theism more likely than not. We haven't seen any miracles. We

1025
01:12:31.439 --> 01:12:34.920
haven't seen God talk to us in
our dreams or outside of our dreams.

1026
01:12:35.079 --> 01:12:38.640
Right, it just hasn't happened to
us. And when we look at other

1027
01:12:38.680 --> 01:12:42.319
people that have made those claims,
we have some questions. Right, there's

1028
01:12:42.399 --> 01:12:47.520
questionable circumstances for why these things have
happened, and ultimately, there hasn't been

1029
01:12:47.960 --> 01:12:55.720
very definitive evidence or definitive arguments that
have made theism more likely than non likely.

1030
01:12:55.880 --> 01:12:58.640
So that's where I've ended up today. I used to be someone who

1031
01:12:58.760 --> 01:13:00.760
was a theist. It used to
be someone who was a deeply devout Christian.

1032
01:13:01.359 --> 01:13:04.640
But after really looking at this evidence
and realizing, huh, there's a

1033
01:13:04.720 --> 01:13:09.039
lot of different faith claims that we
could point to. How do we know

1034
01:13:09.119 --> 01:13:12.600
which one's real? I realize I
don't have any reason to believe one faith

1035
01:13:12.680 --> 01:13:15.319
claim over another faith claim, and
so I've kind of renounced all that and

1036
01:13:15.359 --> 01:13:19.319
have tried to make as little faith
claims as possible and see where that gets

1037
01:13:19.399 --> 01:13:23.479
me. So that's where I'm at, And that's where what I would suggest

1038
01:13:23.479 --> 01:13:26.079
to you as well, if you're
interested, is saying, hey, what

1039
01:13:26.199 --> 01:13:29.479
are some stuff that we can put
all of our money into versus not?

1040
01:13:30.640 --> 01:13:33.199
And where do we go from there? Because that's really the best you could

1041
01:13:33.199 --> 01:13:36.359
do for yourself. So anyway,
that's that's my line of questioning, Richard.

1042
01:13:36.520 --> 01:13:40.000
So there you go. I know
you passed it over to me,

1043
01:13:40.119 --> 01:13:44.720
so passing it back to you,
Yeah, I think kind of along the

1044
01:13:44.760 --> 01:13:47.760
same lines. Yeah, I think
I'm like correct in thinking that you said

1045
01:13:48.239 --> 01:13:54.760
maybe said that if we didn't have
evidence against something, or we should have

1046
01:13:54.880 --> 01:14:00.720
evidence against something, to not consider
the age true. Oh, absolutely right.

1047
01:14:00.640 --> 01:14:06.680
Okay, if someone presents an idea, I don't believe at all that

1048
01:14:06.920 --> 01:14:12.680
we should reject it. Okay,
so there has to be some level of

1049
01:14:12.760 --> 01:14:17.800
skepticism with everything. Yeah, So
what level would you put that skepticism?

1050
01:14:17.880 --> 01:14:24.840
Though? If somebody suggested something along
the lines of a kind of a statue

1051
01:14:24.960 --> 01:14:30.800
floating around Venus with a nice minus
helmet on, who could flap the feet

1052
01:14:30.880 --> 01:14:34.439
and fly through space like people swim
in the sea, would you would you

1053
01:14:34.520 --> 01:14:39.800
think that that is that is something
that should be entertained. Personally, no,

1054
01:14:40.319 --> 01:14:45.840
but there are those out there that
believe in a giant spaghetti flying monster

1055
01:14:45.359 --> 01:14:49.199
that came out of a volcano.
I mean, okay, I personally think

1056
01:14:49.279 --> 01:14:56.359
that's silly, But if that were
the case, it's hey, if you

1057
01:14:56.520 --> 01:15:00.640
come up with proof, I'll believe
in it. Yeah. I'm just trying

1058
01:15:00.680 --> 01:15:04.640
to establish kind of what parameters you're
setting on possibility that that's all I'm trying

1059
01:15:04.680 --> 01:15:10.279
to establish at the moment. And
something you said earlier regarding you know,

1060
01:15:10.960 --> 01:15:16.199
if if someone had a dream,
you'd find that kind of compelling as evidence.

1061
01:15:16.640 --> 01:15:21.520
What would you do if if somebody
had a dream that was totally convincing

1062
01:15:21.680 --> 01:15:28.920
to them that the angels visited them, and the angels had come from Yahweh

1063
01:15:29.239 --> 01:15:32.079
and were telling them that Jesus was
true and Jesus was God, and that

1064
01:15:32.199 --> 01:15:36.880
Christianity was the true religion. And
yet you had somebody else who was telling

1065
01:15:36.960 --> 01:15:41.279
you that they'd had a dream that
said Vishnu had come to them in the

1066
01:15:41.399 --> 01:15:45.399
dream, in Hinduism was indeed the
true religion, and all other religions were

1067
01:15:45.479 --> 01:15:49.680
false. What would how would you
assess which one of those were likely true

1068
01:15:49.880 --> 01:15:54.520
over the other. What kind of
yard stick would you use? Because you've

1069
01:15:54.560 --> 01:15:58.920
said you'd find that kind of thing
compelling. But if two people were having

1070
01:16:00.239 --> 01:16:01.760
you didn't say that, Sorry,
what was it you said? Because I

1071
01:16:01.800 --> 01:16:04.800
don't want to misrepresent you, So
if you if you just repeat what it

1072
01:16:04.960 --> 01:16:10.600
was you did say, Well,
no, honestly, I wasn't trying to

1073
01:16:10.920 --> 01:16:16.760
contradict what you were saying. That
is what led me into believing for a

1074
01:16:16.880 --> 01:16:21.359
short time, or at least feeling
for this short time. I'm very very

1075
01:16:21.439 --> 01:16:26.960
touchy about the word belief because beliefs
is a very very strong word, and

1076
01:16:27.800 --> 01:16:31.199
it gets people killed, it gets
loved orm's hurt, you know. So

1077
01:16:32.039 --> 01:16:39.199
an idea that I had there for
a while, was based out of omniism,

1078
01:16:39.319 --> 01:16:44.520
where it's it's been the same group
of higher beings, just different cultures

1079
01:16:44.800 --> 01:16:50.279
of humanity have different names for them
because of different languages, different different ways

1080
01:16:50.319 --> 01:16:56.680
of thinking. Not to mention the
influence of the leaders of that time.

1081
01:16:57.119 --> 01:17:01.760
History is written by the winners of
war. So I'm kind of confused that

1082
01:17:02.000 --> 01:17:09.119
I'm kind of confused about what you're
telling me you would find compelling. I'm

1083
01:17:09.159 --> 01:17:14.119
a bit kind of stuck on and
it may be me. Probably is me,

1084
01:17:14.439 --> 01:17:17.039
but I'm very I'm kind of stuck
on what you're telling me that you

1085
01:17:17.199 --> 01:17:21.960
would find compelling for a belief in
something. Is there a definitive thing that

1086
01:17:23.079 --> 01:17:27.720
you would find compelling? Honestly,
for me personally, it would have to

1087
01:17:27.800 --> 01:17:33.680
be some sort of physical thing,
like I would. I wouldn't deny that

1088
01:17:34.000 --> 01:17:41.800
person's beliefs that this god or this
angel or this deity came to them in

1089
01:17:41.880 --> 01:17:45.359
a dream. I'm not going to
deny that that didn't happen, because honestly,

1090
01:17:45.560 --> 01:17:50.159
I don't know. I've never okay, anything like that. Let's put

1091
01:17:50.199 --> 01:17:54.199
other people aside them, because I
think this is where I might be getting

1092
01:17:54.239 --> 01:17:58.960
confused. Let's put other people aside, and let's talk about you what you

1093
01:17:59.119 --> 01:18:02.680
would find vincing. Well, like
I said, it would have to be

1094
01:18:02.880 --> 01:18:11.880
some sort of true spiritual and physical
or experience excuse me, in other words,

1095
01:18:12.319 --> 01:18:17.159
eracle. Yeah, And in the
absence of that stigmata, in the

1096
01:18:17.279 --> 01:18:24.479
absence of that and I mean stigma
is a contested thing anyway, So maybe

1097
01:18:24.560 --> 01:18:29.800
not go there, But in the
absence of that physical thing, because you're

1098
01:18:29.800 --> 01:18:32.680
calling to talk about the possibility of
a higher power. So in the absence

1099
01:18:32.760 --> 01:18:38.399
of that physical empirical thing that can
be tested, do you think that is

1100
01:18:39.439 --> 01:18:44.520
good enough without that thing to say
that, well, we should withhold that

1101
01:18:44.680 --> 01:18:47.159
there is a higher power? What
do you mean there? Withhold? I

1102
01:18:47.239 --> 01:18:53.079
mean not accept it to be true, honestly, Yeah, I don't know,

1103
01:18:53.399 --> 01:18:57.079
to be honest. Okay, So
this is what I'm trying to dig

1104
01:18:57.159 --> 01:19:00.279
down that this is what Okay,
I'm trying to dig into this to this

1105
01:19:00.479 --> 01:19:04.760
idea that you kind of you've called
in about the possibility of a higher power,

1106
01:19:04.920 --> 01:19:10.479
and you've said that it's the kind
of the empivocal thing which would demonstrate

1107
01:19:10.640 --> 01:19:15.920
to you that a higher power existed. But in the absence my idea of

1108
01:19:16.199 --> 01:19:24.119
a potential higher power. That's my
idea of a potential higher power would would

1109
01:19:24.119 --> 01:19:30.600
be not it wouldn't be something conscious
the way that most people tend to believe,

1110
01:19:30.920 --> 01:19:38.840
like a true comes into human form
and is all knowing, all powerful.

1111
01:19:39.479 --> 01:19:46.640
I would feel more that it is
a just a consciousness, an ethereal

1112
01:19:47.479 --> 01:19:50.880
ball of light, if you will, that has no form, that has

1113
01:19:51.039 --> 01:19:58.479
no conscious way of thinking, and
our existence and the possibility of souls let

1114
01:19:58.520 --> 01:20:01.279
me or sorry, it is our
purpose on this earth is to give this

1115
01:20:01.800 --> 01:20:09.239
consciousness the ability to experience life,
to experience the physical realm. If this

1116
01:20:09.479 --> 01:20:15.439
were the case, if this entity
type that's quite specific. Maybe I said,

1117
01:20:15.479 --> 01:20:21.439
that's quite a specific description for something
that you say you don't actually accept

1118
01:20:21.600 --> 01:20:27.439
is true, and something that you
said would you'd be convinced off only if

1119
01:20:27.520 --> 01:20:30.880
it could be tested in pirically.
This sounds like something that couldn't be tested

1120
01:20:30.960 --> 01:20:34.279
empirically, So you know, it
sounds like kind of to me an idea.

1121
01:20:34.800 --> 01:20:38.600
Yeah, it's well, it sounds
to me like you're clinging to this

1122
01:20:38.760 --> 01:20:43.119
idea. You're presenting this idea just
for the kind of just for the sake

1123
01:20:43.199 --> 01:20:46.439
of something to hold onto, is
what it sounded like to me that is

1124
01:20:47.159 --> 01:20:53.399
there, that is the honest truth, like this is my final grasp and

1125
01:20:53.800 --> 01:21:02.520
accepting the existence of any ethereal being
that humanity has concosted. Yeah, yeah,

1126
01:21:02.800 --> 01:21:05.000
I guess, uh, I guess
that's up to you to figure out

1127
01:21:05.119 --> 01:21:12.319
whether that's something that's worth holding onto
or yeah, accepting death. Yeah yeah,

1128
01:21:12.800 --> 01:21:17.119
Like like for me, you know, like I haven't observed anything that

1129
01:21:17.199 --> 01:21:21.239
has a mind that isn't physical,
right, I've never seen a mind that

1130
01:21:21.359 --> 01:21:25.520
hasn't been bounded by the physical in
some way. So to say that there

1131
01:21:25.560 --> 01:21:30.479
could be an unphysical mind that exists
out there would defy how I understand what

1132
01:21:30.600 --> 01:21:33.840
minds to be. So that you
know, that's something you might think about

1133
01:21:33.960 --> 01:21:38.399
with this, if if this is
an idea that you're interested in deconstructing.

1134
01:21:38.479 --> 01:21:41.279
But honestly, if this is just
an idea you want to hold onto you

1135
01:21:41.359 --> 01:21:45.800
because it makes you feel better about
death, or it's just something that gives

1136
01:21:45.840 --> 01:21:47.680
you some some peace, I mean, you know that's up to you,

1137
01:21:48.039 --> 01:21:50.199
Right, It's up to you to
decide what you want to do with it.

1138
01:21:50.720 --> 01:21:54.399
But for us, at least for
Richard and I think we're interested in

1139
01:21:54.479 --> 01:21:58.439
trying to figure out what's most likely
and sticking with that, right, because

1140
01:21:58.439 --> 01:22:00.399
at the end of the day,
we do have to make decision. You

1141
01:22:00.439 --> 01:22:01.680
have to make hard calls. Certainly
there's stuff we can hold off on,

1142
01:22:01.960 --> 01:22:04.960
like like like you know, the
incompatible ism debate we were having earlier,

1143
01:22:05.079 --> 01:22:09.159
right between like free will and stuff. Right, that may be something that

1144
01:22:09.359 --> 01:22:12.880
we may never know, but also
may not have any immediate consequences, right

1145
01:22:13.000 --> 01:22:15.680
Like this is this maybe another example
of that. It's up to you to

1146
01:22:15.720 --> 01:22:18.119
figure out whether it's going to have
consequence for your life. But there's a

1147
01:22:18.239 --> 01:22:23.359
nobility in trying to know what's true
as well and being honest with yourself.

1148
01:22:23.520 --> 01:22:25.680
The fact that you've gone as far
as you have, I mean, that's

1149
01:22:25.800 --> 01:22:28.479
that speaks to your character. I
think that speaks to you saying no,

1150
01:22:28.640 --> 01:22:30.159
no, I want to, like, you know, figure out what's true

1151
01:22:30.159 --> 01:22:33.439
from the bullshit, and I encourage
that. But it sounds like there's another

1152
01:22:33.479 --> 01:22:36.600
step for you, I guess is
what I'm trying to say, This may

1153
01:22:36.640 --> 01:22:41.119
be another thing that you have to
kind of wrestle with and decide whether it's

1154
01:22:41.399 --> 01:22:50.560
My target was to try and get
your opinions on the plausibility of it all.

1155
01:22:50.760 --> 01:22:54.079
Yeah, yeah, I mean non
physical minds, right, I've never

1156
01:22:54.199 --> 01:22:57.600
seen evidence of their existence. It
seems like everything that has a mind we

1157
01:22:57.720 --> 01:23:04.319
can point to something in physical reality. So that would be my contention with

1158
01:23:04.439 --> 01:23:10.640
it. Yeah, and that coupled
with your kind of the idea wrapped up

1159
01:23:10.720 --> 01:23:14.359
in that that you've got, You've
got this idea about souls which have a

1160
01:23:14.439 --> 01:23:18.119
purpose towards that non physical mind as
well. I think is adds kind of

1161
01:23:18.520 --> 01:23:23.960
negative evidence, if you like to
it. It adds weight against the possibility

1162
01:23:24.079 --> 01:23:28.199
of that thing, because then you're
not only talking about one thing, this

1163
01:23:28.560 --> 01:23:32.640
incomporeal mind, You're also talking about
these other things, souls, which are

1164
01:23:32.720 --> 01:23:39.520
something completely different and and deserve a
conversation in their own right as to whether

1165
01:23:39.720 --> 01:23:43.680
they're possible. And these two things
interacting with each other. There's a lot

1166
01:23:43.720 --> 01:23:45.640
of stuff there. But I agree
with Dan, You've come a long way

1167
01:23:45.960 --> 01:23:49.199
already, and keep asking the questions. Keep, you know, keep,

1168
01:23:49.399 --> 01:23:55.960
It's very helpful to have self dialogue
and talk through these things yourself and kind

1169
01:23:56.000 --> 01:23:58.760
of look at you know, go
down the route of saying, you know,

1170
01:23:58.880 --> 01:24:01.199
well, I think this might be
a possibility, and then I've got

1171
01:24:01.239 --> 01:24:05.319
this other thing which I think might
be a possibility. Let's kind of deconstruct

1172
01:24:05.439 --> 01:24:10.039
each one of those things and look
at the possibility of those existing in their

1173
01:24:10.079 --> 01:24:14.680
own right together and kind of dismantling
it in that way, I think is

1174
01:24:14.760 --> 01:24:17.239
the thing I would do if it
was me having this conversation with myself.

1175
01:24:17.479 --> 01:24:23.000
But well, we'll let you go
give us a call back, and you

1176
01:24:23.079 --> 01:24:26.000
know, let's when when you've had
a think about it, give us a

1177
01:24:26.039 --> 01:24:30.039
callback and we'll continue with the conversation. Then it's certainly an interesting kind of

1178
01:24:30.079 --> 01:24:33.560
avenue to go down. We have
still got calls. Callers, don't go

1179
01:24:33.680 --> 01:24:36.680
away. We are going to go
over time a little bit to try and

1180
01:24:36.800 --> 01:24:40.479
fit you in. So we will
do the best we can, and just

1181
01:24:40.560 --> 01:24:44.880
going to give a quick set of
announcements before we do. If you happen

1182
01:24:44.960 --> 01:24:47.680
to be in the Austin area August
twenty seven, twenty twenty three, for

1183
01:24:47.760 --> 01:24:53.399
the Backthroughs weekend, then please considering
joining us for the live broadcast of Talk

1184
01:24:53.479 --> 01:24:57.840
Heathen and the Eightiest Experience Talk Heathen. We'll be hosted by Forrest val Kai,

1185
01:24:58.119 --> 01:25:00.520
Jay Mike, and Jamie four Mobs
We get a triple there, and

1186
01:25:00.600 --> 01:25:05.159
the Eightist Experience will be hosted by
Johnny p Angel. Forest Valkai and J

1187
01:25:05.319 --> 01:25:09.680
Mike. So you get true two
triple bills that day. That is going

1188
01:25:09.760 --> 01:25:14.039
to be very interesting. Doors open
at noon and we very very much hope

1189
01:25:14.119 --> 01:25:15.600
to see you there. We're going
to jump straight in for another call.

1190
01:25:15.800 --> 01:25:21.039
We're going to take Atari, who
wants to say that the problem of evil

1191
01:25:21.399 --> 01:25:25.960
proves God. Atari? Hello,
how are you doing? Come? Hello?

1192
01:25:26.319 --> 01:25:29.520
I'm fine? How about very well? Thank you? You think the

1193
01:25:29.600 --> 01:25:34.439
problem if evil proves God? Oh
well, yes, not directly, but

1194
01:25:34.880 --> 01:25:42.199
I think it's a good argument for
it. So like to make such dodguments

1195
01:25:42.800 --> 01:25:46.840
about God, they make only with
such toudgments, said and I John Sander

1196
01:25:46.920 --> 01:25:51.439
said, how can no deliversake such
dodguments? Can you extended to me?

1197
01:25:51.760 --> 01:25:57.880
Yes, because I still have preferences
whether or not a God exists. I

1198
01:25:57.960 --> 01:26:00.800
still have things that I would want
to happen, it would want not to

1199
01:26:00.920 --> 01:26:04.079
happen whether or not a God exists. So God isn't really necessary for us

1200
01:26:04.159 --> 01:26:09.159
to have an understanding of right and
wrong. Again, that's not saying that

1201
01:26:09.359 --> 01:26:13.079
objective right and wrong exists, or
that I even have access to it,

1202
01:26:13.279 --> 01:26:15.560
or if I if I even think
that's a coherent concept. But when people

1203
01:26:15.640 --> 01:26:20.279
talk about right and wrong. You
can still say it's relative to people's interests,

1204
01:26:20.560 --> 01:26:25.600
and that's still a system of right
and wrong. Again, doesn't have

1205
01:26:25.680 --> 01:26:29.680
to be objective in a universal sense. It can still be relative to people,

1206
01:26:29.920 --> 01:26:32.119
and that doesn't mean that it doesn't
exist. Achieve some objects too.

1207
01:26:32.199 --> 01:26:38.960
Can you cannot make such judgments about
gods? Which is suppossible conscend all of

1208
01:26:39.640 --> 01:26:42.439
only worse? Well, I can
make judgments about God, why can't I

1209
01:26:43.920 --> 01:26:47.479
object And yeah, I don't believe
in objective morality, But why does that

1210
01:26:47.560 --> 01:26:53.640
mean I can't make judgments I objectively? Dan can still make judgments whether objective

1211
01:26:53.680 --> 01:26:58.840
morality is real or not right?
Because you are You are ask something God

1212
01:26:59.079 --> 01:27:02.840
exists in a for the support for
the argument, and then saying that if

1213
01:27:02.880 --> 01:27:08.399
got the assistance, he couldn't he
couldn't exist because it's he's seem or wrong.

1214
01:27:08.840 --> 01:27:12.479
Well, yeah, I don't believe
God exists. You're right, But

1215
01:27:12.680 --> 01:27:15.239
I'm just I'm just entertaining the idea
that if he did exists, whether he

1216
01:27:15.279 --> 01:27:18.520
would be a good person or not
right, Like if Adolf Hitler was a

1217
01:27:18.560 --> 01:27:23.520
mythological figure, I could still assess
whether he was a good guy or not

1218
01:27:23.800 --> 01:27:28.760
right, Well, I would like
to ask you what you think about free

1219
01:27:28.800 --> 01:27:31.199
will? Okay, well that's kind
of different from what you wanted to talk

1220
01:27:31.239 --> 01:27:34.000
to us about. Originally, we
kind have already talked about free will,

1221
01:27:34.039 --> 01:27:38.119
to be honest, we kind of
gave our opinion on that. But I

1222
01:27:38.159 --> 01:27:42.000
mean, does this make sense?
Let's talk about this like people can have

1223
01:27:42.239 --> 01:27:46.800
subjective judgments and still determine whether something
is right or wrong, right, I

1224
01:27:46.880 --> 01:27:49.960
mean, do you agree with me
on this? You can make judgments tip

1225
01:27:49.960 --> 01:27:54.720
about yourself as to churn out to
you, but you are making when you're

1226
01:27:54.760 --> 01:27:58.439
talking about God, you are making
judgments about the horror world. So there

1227
01:27:58.600 --> 01:28:03.640
has to be objective all right.
I don't see you. I don't see

1228
01:28:03.640 --> 01:28:09.319
why there has to be objective morality? Why if me judging God, why

1229
01:28:09.359 --> 01:28:15.159
does that mean has to be objective
ethics? Everyone not trust you? Why

1230
01:28:15.199 --> 01:28:18.359
does that matter? Do do do? Do? Do do do? I

1231
01:28:18.439 --> 01:28:23.000
probably can't say that. Actually,
probably get in trouble nothing, okay,

1232
01:28:23.159 --> 01:28:26.079
okay, all right, anyway,
anyway, all right, that's fine,

1233
01:28:26.239 --> 01:28:29.279
No, that's cool. I think
we're kind of getting towards the other show

1234
01:28:29.319 --> 01:28:31.319
here anyway, So we should be
wrapping things up. Bridget you have everything

1235
01:28:31.359 --> 01:28:35.079
else on this or no. I
mean we didn't really such the problem of

1236
01:28:35.119 --> 01:28:39.079
evil much there, but you know, give us a call back on Sarry

1237
01:28:39.199 --> 01:28:41.680
and you know, I have a
think about a tar sy and have a

1238
01:28:41.800 --> 01:28:45.159
think about it. You know,
I think we've we've had a couple of

1239
01:28:45.239 --> 01:28:49.359
callers who've called in today who haven't
really thought through the kind of things are

1240
01:28:49.359 --> 01:28:54.359
presenting. And you know, maybe
before you call in the call in shore

1241
01:28:54.600 --> 01:28:58.720
we're kind of telling us that God
exists because of X. You might like

1242
01:28:58.960 --> 01:29:02.479
to form an actual argument as to
why that's the case. You know,

1243
01:29:02.520 --> 01:29:05.960
it wouldn't make for a much more
interesting conversation. We are going to jump

1244
01:29:06.079 --> 01:29:14.319
in to uh have a look Jason, who was asking if society becoming more

1245
01:29:14.439 --> 01:29:17.239
religious or more atheists. We are
going to try and get to everybody on

1246
01:29:17.359 --> 01:29:19.960
the lines, so please do stay
on the lines. If you are on

1247
01:29:20.039 --> 01:29:25.479
the lines, Jason, I've lost
Jason. Jason appears to have dropped,

1248
01:29:26.039 --> 01:29:30.920
So we will take Nick, who
was talking wants to ask about veganism.

1249
01:29:30.119 --> 01:29:33.720
Called a couple of weeks ago.
Nick and we had a little conversation and

1250
01:29:33.800 --> 01:29:36.479
I asked you to call back in
Nick from Ohio. What's going on?

1251
01:29:38.439 --> 01:29:40.960
Yeah, I was going to answer
the question about like who I had taken

1252
01:29:41.039 --> 01:29:43.760
Hell, I guess as a roommate, I'd take that, my guy,

1253
01:29:43.880 --> 01:29:47.760
you know, take one for the
team, you know. Damn, thanks,

1254
01:29:47.880 --> 01:29:53.479
thanks, Nick, appreciate it.
That's that's a good one. Yeah,

1255
01:29:54.000 --> 01:29:56.720
well, yeah, I wanted to
call it about veganism. I know,

1256
01:29:56.840 --> 01:29:59.920
Dan, I know you're vegan,
so go Damn. There are dozens,

1257
01:30:01.279 --> 01:30:08.640
There are dozens of us dozens.
Yeah, yeah, I guess,

1258
01:30:08.800 --> 01:30:11.319
so I don't know. I guess
to jump right in. I was going

1259
01:30:11.359 --> 01:30:14.479
to just mention that, like,
so people kind of misunderstood what I was

1260
01:30:14.560 --> 01:30:16.880
talking about last time based on the
common section. So here's my position.

1261
01:30:17.279 --> 01:30:23.079
The positions sort of isomorphic to atheism. So it's that if you ask most

1262
01:30:23.119 --> 01:30:26.159
people, So if you ask them, like, it's it okay to shoot

1263
01:30:26.279 --> 01:30:29.560
rocks at songbirds, it's okay to
cut the fits off of dolphins. I

1264
01:30:29.800 --> 01:30:32.000
went to a flea market, found
a box of free puppies. Can I

1265
01:30:32.319 --> 01:30:35.000
grabb a ball peen hammer and fire
up the grill at home? You know,

1266
01:30:35.199 --> 01:30:41.119
people will react all of those very
negatively. And the question is why

1267
01:30:41.319 --> 01:30:45.600
is it that we know accept in
all these other circumstances that we're gonna say

1268
01:30:45.680 --> 01:30:50.439
that it's unethical to negatively impact their
well being, or however it is you

1269
01:30:50.479 --> 01:30:54.920
want to justify. It doesn't really
matter to me that you're just gonna say

1270
01:30:54.960 --> 01:30:57.560
that that's unethical. But we're gonna
make this. We're going to carve out

1271
01:30:57.600 --> 01:31:01.760
this weird set of exceptions for weird
pecular set of animals. And I don't

1272
01:31:01.880 --> 01:31:06.159
understand what that difference is. And
the thing is that that's kind of a

1273
01:31:06.239 --> 01:31:12.479
null hypothesis, just like atheism is. And so to reject you can either

1274
01:31:12.560 --> 01:31:15.720
reject the n hypothesis, state that
there is some difference, or you could

1275
01:31:15.880 --> 01:31:19.760
fail to state that difference. But
I can never really prove to you that

1276
01:31:19.880 --> 01:31:24.920
you don't have any justification for separating
those things out. I hope that kind

1277
01:31:24.960 --> 01:31:28.439
of makes sense that the burden of
proof would be on the person that's trying

1278
01:31:28.479 --> 01:31:31.520
to justify that they're not special pleading. Does that make sense? I think

1279
01:31:31.560 --> 01:31:35.680
I think Richard has to answer this
because my opinion is going to be very

1280
01:31:35.760 --> 01:31:41.199
different from Richard. I think I
think that you know, we talked about

1281
01:31:41.279 --> 01:31:45.640
this in the comment section a little
bit. I'm kind of disappointed you've jumped

1282
01:31:45.720 --> 01:31:49.640
back said this rather than you know, the thing that I specifically asked you

1283
01:31:49.800 --> 01:31:54.800
to call in and discuss, which
I think was much more interesting. And

1284
01:31:54.880 --> 01:31:59.920
I am going to get to viam
answering this. I agree that we shouldn't

1285
01:32:00.119 --> 01:32:03.520
harm thinks for the sake of harming
them. Absolutely agree with that. Yeah,

1286
01:32:04.359 --> 01:32:10.399
I think I think vegans. See
I have this thing with veganism,

1287
01:32:10.479 --> 01:32:14.000
right well, I have no problem
with veganism whatsoever. The only question I

1288
01:32:14.119 --> 01:32:19.199
have of vegans is if you specifically
think it is a moral imperative that we

1289
01:32:19.359 --> 01:32:23.640
have we become vegan, I want
to know your reasons why, and that

1290
01:32:23.840 --> 01:32:28.199
is it? It just being just
via being vegan. I have no problem.

1291
01:32:28.439 --> 01:32:30.319
I'm gonna I'm gonna come in here, all right, I'm coming in,

1292
01:32:30.600 --> 01:32:33.119
coming in. He's coming in hot. Here's the deal, Richard.

1293
01:32:33.279 --> 01:32:36.760
So there's an author called Melanie Joy
who writes about this. She has this

1294
01:32:36.920 --> 01:32:41.359
book. In the book it titles
a mouthful, It's why we wear cows,

1295
01:32:41.800 --> 01:32:45.119
Love dogs? Sorry, why we
love dogs, eat pigs and wear

1296
01:32:45.199 --> 01:32:45.760
cows. You. I can't even
say it right. I had to look

1297
01:32:45.760 --> 01:32:48.600
it up because I can't remember.
So she talks about this concept that Nick

1298
01:32:48.680 --> 01:32:51.680
is alluding to, is this idea
of carnism right. It's this idea that

1299
01:32:51.880 --> 01:32:58.159
we kind of put animals into these
social categories of what's accepted for them to

1300
01:32:58.720 --> 01:33:01.960
be eaten, what's acceptable for them
to wear their clothes from, get our

1301
01:33:02.000 --> 01:33:06.239
clothes from, what's acceptable to cause
harm to if it's to our benefit.

1302
01:33:06.479 --> 01:33:11.520
And there's some animals that don't fit
that that kind of criteria. So dogs

1303
01:33:11.560 --> 01:33:14.640
are a great example. Most Americans
love dogs. They love it. If

1304
01:33:14.680 --> 01:33:17.439
I said I am going to get
my dog from the local dog farm,

1305
01:33:17.560 --> 01:33:20.359
don't larry it and just to get
some clothes. But don't worry. They're

1306
01:33:20.399 --> 01:33:26.119
locally sourced. You know, they're
they're organically fed, and it's really great.

1307
01:33:26.319 --> 01:33:29.399
You know some most people would still
be against this, and so you

1308
01:33:29.520 --> 01:33:31.119
kind of come into the question why. And so I think Nick's point is,

1309
01:33:31.520 --> 01:33:35.840
is it is it appropriate that somebody
has to be accountable to that?

1310
01:33:36.199 --> 01:33:42.239
Right that if you already have this
social category that describes what an animal should

1311
01:33:42.239 --> 01:33:45.000
be and what's acceptable for them or
not, do they have to be answerable

1312
01:33:45.079 --> 01:33:48.880
to that? Is that a fair
summation, Nick? Yeah, except it's

1313
01:33:48.880 --> 01:33:54.199
actually it's a weirder position than that. So it's it's not even just why

1314
01:33:54.439 --> 01:33:59.159
is it that, like we make
these strata for like the the animals themselves.

1315
01:33:59.439 --> 01:34:01.640
And the thing is that it's not
as though you could do anything to

1316
01:34:01.720 --> 01:34:04.399
a cow. It's not that we
identify like a cow, a pig,

1317
01:34:04.479 --> 01:34:06.439
and a chicken. We say,
okay, these animals, you can do

1318
01:34:06.479 --> 01:34:10.039
everything. What happens, there's a
lot of times when you argue with people,

1319
01:34:10.119 --> 01:34:13.399
what you'll find is that they'll say
that like, oh well you can't,

1320
01:34:13.680 --> 01:34:17.000
for instance, or I'm against factory
farming, or you'll have some other

1321
01:34:17.119 --> 01:34:21.279
caveats, which actually is an even
more contorted position. So you're not just

1322
01:34:21.399 --> 01:34:27.640
special bleeding across the animals that you're
choosing, but you're also really picking and

1323
01:34:27.800 --> 01:34:30.720
choosing those rights. And I would
sort of give an example, which is

1324
01:34:30.720 --> 01:34:32.920
sort of a funny example, is
like let's say, for instance, somebody

1325
01:34:33.239 --> 01:34:39.359
said to you, I agree with
you as everything on property rights, except

1326
01:34:39.560 --> 01:34:45.760
I specifically make the exception that it's
okay to steal blue cars, right specifically

1327
01:34:45.760 --> 01:34:49.000
steal, not vandalized specifically blue cars. It's the thing is that the burden

1328
01:34:49.039 --> 01:34:53.159
of proof would then be like try
and argue against that in a way that

1329
01:34:53.359 --> 01:34:58.560
isn't asking someone where the hell did
you get that from? Why specifically blue

1330
01:34:59.279 --> 01:35:02.680
like why specific typically steal like.
It's actually a very bizarre supportive position.

1331
01:35:02.880 --> 01:35:04.880
I think I just want to get
crystal clear on is that if you don't

1332
01:35:04.920 --> 01:35:10.760
provide that justification for that distinction that
you're making, you're engaging in special pleading,

1333
01:35:10.880 --> 01:35:14.199
which would be fallacious, and veganism
would therefore stand. If that makes

1334
01:35:14.239 --> 01:35:17.000
sense, So that would be the
proof is that you need to propridate justification

1335
01:35:17.600 --> 01:35:23.840
to so far, nobody's provided a
justification, and so therefore veganism would stand,

1336
01:35:24.079 --> 01:35:27.319
and it would stand for the things
that you would also agree with me

1337
01:35:27.399 --> 01:35:30.600
on free puppies and so on.
Interesting, it's an interesting route to take

1338
01:35:30.640 --> 01:35:32.920
with it. Richard, What do
you think on the puppy thing? I

1339
01:35:33.079 --> 01:35:38.119
personally, although I don't do it
and engage in it myself because it is

1340
01:35:38.239 --> 01:35:42.039
not legal, I have no problem
with people eating puppies. I said it

1341
01:35:42.119 --> 01:35:45.039
when we and we had this conversation
in the comments section, I told you

1342
01:35:45.199 --> 01:35:48.640
I was not a commist, and
you know, we didn't enough time to

1343
01:35:48.720 --> 01:35:54.359
really explore that. If it is, if it's legal and the animals are

1344
01:35:54.399 --> 01:35:58.239
treat well during life, they're not
in many cases in puppy farms, which

1345
01:35:58.319 --> 01:36:02.800
is my contention against puppy farms.
There is nothing wrong with people eating animals.

1346
01:36:03.079 --> 01:36:08.720
I don't think it's not a position
which needs justifying. Devil's advocate Richard.

1347
01:36:09.159 --> 01:36:12.600
People are animals, right, yes, absolutely, so we can raise

1348
01:36:12.680 --> 01:36:15.600
people, you know, No,
but I would have no problem with people

1349
01:36:15.640 --> 01:36:17.760
eating animals. Okay, wait for
people are animals though, Yeah, but

1350
01:36:17.800 --> 01:36:20.199
I would have no Okay, so
I wouldn't have so here here's this is

1351
01:36:20.239 --> 01:36:24.319
the next point though. Right,
we're the blue cars in this analogy,

1352
01:36:24.520 --> 01:36:27.800
right, people are the blue cars. We're animals, but it's okay to

1353
01:36:28.319 --> 01:36:30.640
do not do to people, but
we can do to other We have We

1354
01:36:30.760 --> 01:36:35.199
are not we are We are classed
as different to animals. As human beings.

1355
01:36:35.479 --> 01:36:39.840
We are different form of animals.
What makes us different? What makes

1356
01:36:39.960 --> 01:36:44.680
us? What makes us not touchable? But other animals touchable? Because we

1357
01:36:44.800 --> 01:36:49.239
are? We are human beings.
And I don't necessarily disagree with I'm not

1358
01:36:49.359 --> 01:36:56.119
a humanist in every respects. You
know, if somebody attempted to harm my

1359
01:36:56.279 --> 01:37:00.279
daughter, I would have no problem
with harming that person. Yeah, I

1360
01:37:00.319 --> 01:37:02.960
wouldn't necessarily. I wouldn't go around
and kick a dog. I wouldn't go

1361
01:37:03.039 --> 01:37:06.079
around and kick a person for no
reason. But see, but see,

1362
01:37:08.079 --> 01:37:11.359
there begs the question why wouldn't you
go and kick a dog? Because I

1363
01:37:11.439 --> 01:37:14.079
think it's a nasty thing to do. I wouldn't. I wouldn't. Why

1364
01:37:14.159 --> 01:37:16.359
why? Why do? Why does
the dog's life matter? If you're okay

1365
01:37:16.439 --> 01:37:19.039
with eating them? Why does it
matter if you kick them? Because that's

1366
01:37:19.079 --> 01:37:24.920
causing harm for no reason? Eating
in animals and necessarily causing harm to it.

1367
01:37:25.119 --> 01:37:27.520
It's not causing it. It's not
causing harm to it, Richard,

1368
01:37:27.520 --> 01:37:30.640
it's ending their life. We don't
end with difference. There is a difference.

1369
01:37:31.279 --> 01:37:38.479
This is great. Yeah, there's
a marked difference between causing harm to

1370
01:37:38.640 --> 01:37:42.800
something. I don't agree with factory
farming. Yeah. I don't really quickly

1371
01:37:42.920 --> 01:37:47.520
jump in because it seems like if
we're trying to throw in these justifications,

1372
01:37:47.520 --> 01:37:53.159
so we're trying to come up with
some justification that demonstrates their distinction. Okay,

1373
01:37:53.399 --> 01:37:58.640
So let me quickly give you two
tests the any justification has to pass.

1374
01:37:59.000 --> 01:38:03.039
Okay. So the first one is
that if you have if you think

1375
01:38:03.079 --> 01:38:06.239
that you can draw the line where
you can say something is you know I'm

1376
01:38:06.279 --> 01:38:10.439
drawing such and such a line.
The first test is quite simply the thing

1377
01:38:10.760 --> 01:38:15.239
that you want to be ethical or
unethical has to actually be divided by that

1378
01:38:15.399 --> 01:38:18.000
justification. And the second thing is
that it has to come out of some

1379
01:38:18.079 --> 01:38:21.800
sort of framework of well being or
some sort of framework of morality. Don't

1380
01:38:21.840 --> 01:38:28.079
worry about the second premise or the
second condition, because everything fails the first

1381
01:38:28.159 --> 01:38:31.119
one. And so, so,
for instance, if you're saying that,

1382
01:38:31.279 --> 01:38:35.720
yeah, I'm going to just axiomatically
assert that human beings are special, I

1383
01:38:35.760 --> 01:38:41.279
can axiomatically assert anything, just as
Dan pointed out. So okay, so

1384
01:38:41.359 --> 01:38:45.880
that doesn't work. So you know, last time they tried lab grown meat

1385
01:38:45.960 --> 01:38:49.960
again, we wouldn't make that justification
for specific we're still narrowing down that specific

1386
01:38:50.039 --> 01:38:55.199
set of animals. Wouldn't actually justify
that appeals to nature again, that would

1387
01:38:55.319 --> 01:38:59.039
include cannibalism, that wouldn't So everything
is just failing this first test. Oh

1388
01:38:59.479 --> 01:39:01.640
yeah, like humanism West sign know
you don't take this position of humanism again

1389
01:39:02.119 --> 01:39:06.640
people have problems with eating, Like
let's take dolphins or elephants or gorillas or

1390
01:39:06.960 --> 01:39:13.119
neanderthals, right like, Okay,
so that definitions of humanism or decision of

1391
01:39:13.199 --> 01:39:16.159
humanism that wouldn't necessarily really divide what
they want and so on. We can

1392
01:39:16.199 --> 01:39:18.840
just go through all the lists.
In fact, all of these things are

1393
01:39:18.920 --> 01:39:23.279
all the same arguments. So I
sort of here's an anti plug. I

1394
01:39:23.439 --> 01:39:26.479
actually create a website. I was
trying to create like a talk Origins archive

1395
01:39:27.279 --> 01:39:31.800
of every single argument against veganism.
And the problem with that I realized about

1396
01:39:31.840 --> 01:39:36.439
halfway there is there's not like five
hundred arguments against veganism. Uh, it's

1397
01:39:36.560 --> 01:39:41.560
actually there's only three. And so
all of these these are all the first.

1398
01:39:41.720 --> 01:39:44.600
This is just the first argument.
I will assert that animals are okay

1399
01:39:44.680 --> 01:39:48.039
to eat as funneled through some intermediate
property acts. And why does it?

1400
01:39:48.279 --> 01:39:54.079
Why does this feel Why does the
vegan argument always come down to eating animals?

1401
01:39:54.359 --> 01:39:58.000
Why isn't it the killing of animals? Well, that's just the well,

1402
01:39:58.159 --> 01:40:00.720
I mean, that's just like that's
such a shorthand, you know,

1403
01:40:00.880 --> 01:40:02.880
I mean, but yeah, it's
not. No, no, no,

1404
01:40:03.119 --> 01:40:08.199
it is not. It is not
Why does it? Why is it eating?

1405
01:40:08.239 --> 01:40:12.199
I'm asking your specific play why it's
eating animals and not killing animals?

1406
01:40:12.359 --> 01:40:15.600
We get well, when the process
of eating animals, right, we farm

1407
01:40:15.720 --> 01:40:18.119
them, we're ending their life before
they would naturally end. Right, So

1408
01:40:18.279 --> 01:40:21.560
like cows can live up with like
twenty years, but depending on whether they're

1409
01:40:21.600 --> 01:40:25.920
farm for meat or for dairy,
they can live up to like five at

1410
01:40:25.960 --> 01:40:29.319
max on average. Right, So
we are ending the lives short for the

1411
01:40:29.399 --> 01:40:32.239
purposes of consumption. And so the
debate is, you know, okay,

1412
01:40:32.359 --> 01:40:39.279
so that's it's not them, it's
not that's the biggest thing. I mean,

1413
01:40:39.359 --> 01:40:43.439
like, so you can't exist in
life without like causing some taking away

1414
01:40:43.479 --> 01:40:45.960
resources from or harming animals for the
most part. Right when I drive my

1415
01:40:46.039 --> 01:40:48.000
car, I probably gonna hit a
fly or something. Right, So,

1416
01:40:48.119 --> 01:40:51.600
like there's some that would say that
even that's unjust, But regardless, we

1417
01:40:51.680 --> 01:40:56.600
all have to mitigate, like what
what's just with interactions and what's not and

1418
01:40:56.720 --> 01:41:00.520
with with veganism, particularly when it
comes to food consumption, Like that's something

1419
01:41:00.600 --> 01:41:02.079
you can make a change to do. I became a vegan. There's other

1420
01:41:02.079 --> 01:41:06.399
people that become vegans. That's that's
that is something people can do without it

1421
01:41:06.560 --> 01:41:10.920
being as drastic as one might think
it is going to be more dress some

1422
01:41:11.000 --> 01:41:15.640
people animals killed, say again,
and the production of vegan diets are animals

1423
01:41:15.720 --> 01:41:18.439
killed? Of course, Yeah,
it takes land mask to to to farm.

1424
01:41:18.720 --> 01:41:24.840
But the question about argument, But
no, it doesn't because here's why,

1425
01:41:25.000 --> 01:41:30.239
Richard. You have to raise crops
in order to raise animals, right,

1426
01:41:30.760 --> 01:41:33.600
it takes more crops to graze the
cows and chickens that we do.

1427
01:41:33.840 --> 01:41:42.119
Maybe what let me let me just
really quickly, Nick, Nick Nick comes

1428
01:41:42.159 --> 01:41:44.720
into here too. Nick, go
ahead, Yeah, So the thing is

1429
01:41:44.840 --> 01:41:48.520
that and what about crop test is
the exact same first argument? Does that

1430
01:41:48.680 --> 01:41:53.520
actually separate out the things that you
want? Animals die, so like,

1431
01:41:53.600 --> 01:41:58.920
I guess mice die somehow that justifies
eating cows, pigs, and chickens and

1432
01:41:59.000 --> 01:42:02.279
not humans. Hmans die in farms, like in farming accidents. And yet

1433
01:42:02.479 --> 01:42:04.960
you would say it's more of the
humans. You understand what I'm saying,

1434
01:42:05.000 --> 01:42:10.359
Like, it doesn't actually create that
dividing line. So again we're like kind

1435
01:42:10.399 --> 01:42:13.600
of dust for me though, it's
kind of a massive issue for me.

1436
01:42:13.960 --> 01:42:16.880
Well, it is a massive issue
for me that if the argument is yeah,

1437
01:42:17.000 --> 01:42:23.279
but it wouldn't animal. Nick.
If the argument is that an animal

1438
01:42:23.439 --> 01:42:28.000
dies is be an animal dyeing in
food consumption, is in the creation of

1439
01:42:28.079 --> 01:42:32.560
food or in food consumption is the
problem, then a vegan diet suffers from

1440
01:42:32.680 --> 01:42:36.399
the same problem. Just to say, well, it's it's to a lesser

1441
01:42:36.520 --> 01:42:41.239
extent. It is not a justification. Hold on, Richard, hold on,

1442
01:42:41.520 --> 01:42:45.199
you can't be serious about this,
because that's like saying I'm going to

1443
01:42:45.359 --> 01:42:47.920
raise a human farm. And if
you say, oh, well no,

1444
01:42:48.000 --> 01:42:50.479
no way. Wait wait listen,
listen, listen, listen, Richard,

1445
01:42:50.560 --> 01:42:55.159
listen. I'm raising a human farm
and you're saying, well, you know

1446
01:42:55.560 --> 01:42:58.560
that still produces it, and and
and and and I give this this,

1447
01:42:58.760 --> 01:43:01.239
this fence that says, well,
you know your farm, your cow farm,

1448
01:43:01.319 --> 01:43:05.199
still produces animal harm. So really, my human farm is fine.

1449
01:43:05.359 --> 01:43:11.079
Actually that I mean that you would
say that wouldn't suffice, right, Okay,

1450
01:43:11.159 --> 01:43:14.239
So I have a human farm,
right, I'm farming arm, farming

1451
01:43:14.319 --> 01:43:17.800
dogs or whatever. What's I'm farming
gorillas to eat, okay, And you're

1452
01:43:17.840 --> 01:43:21.119
saying, actually, you know that
that proves harm. And I say,

1453
01:43:21.159 --> 01:43:25.079
well, what's your silu? Should
we just eat cows? Instead? Well

1454
01:43:25.239 --> 01:43:28.680
that that that's not a good solution. So I'm just gonna keep farming gorillas

1455
01:43:28.800 --> 01:43:32.159
or keep farming human beings like that
wouldn't that That doesn't compute? Right?

1456
01:43:32.399 --> 01:43:36.319
And the thing is too like,
yeah, there is total land masses usage

1457
01:43:36.600 --> 01:43:41.920
like is less when it comes to
vegan diets overall in particular because you get

1458
01:43:41.960 --> 01:43:45.720
direct feed from plant crops to humans, whereas you have to grow plants just

1459
01:43:45.840 --> 01:43:49.800
to raise the animals. And not
only does both of that use land,

1460
01:43:49.920 --> 01:43:55.479
but it also uses food. So
we're actually using more food overall to feed

1461
01:43:55.520 --> 01:43:59.439
the animals on Earth that we do
for our animal crops than we then we

1462
01:43:59.479 --> 01:44:01.199
even do for plant crops that go
directly to humans. Does that make sense?

1463
01:44:01.239 --> 01:44:05.600
Like we're actually using more farmland right
now just to raise the animals that

1464
01:44:05.680 --> 01:44:10.560
we eat and we do for for
humans overall. So so there is like

1465
01:44:10.760 --> 01:44:17.560
a very significant less usage of land
overall and therefore less animals dying overall.

1466
01:44:17.880 --> 01:44:21.039
If you if everyone on Earth went
vegan, Like if if that was the

1467
01:44:21.119 --> 01:44:29.199
case, and we could also which
we introduce more ethical farming methods ethical farming.

1468
01:44:29.279 --> 01:44:32.479
But what's ethical about killing a sentient
you know, cow early on in

1469
01:44:32.560 --> 01:44:36.119
its lifespan when I can just avoid
eating cows altogether? Well, is it

1470
01:44:36.279 --> 01:44:41.399
is it not more ethical to treat
a cow and like grow it in a

1471
01:44:41.600 --> 01:44:45.039
free range field and feed it and
treat it well and give it veteran every

1472
01:44:45.119 --> 01:44:47.720
cat when it needs it. Yeah, but that's not what happens when you

1473
01:44:47.800 --> 01:44:51.199
buy a cows though, that's not
like, it's not what factory farming is.

1474
01:44:51.560 --> 01:44:55.079
No, No, exactly, I
agree with you. This is the

1475
01:44:55.159 --> 01:44:59.119
whole point I'm making. Is it
not more ethical? Is it not more

1476
01:44:59.199 --> 01:45:01.159
ethical for me to as a child
and then you know, let it live

1477
01:45:01.199 --> 01:45:04.239
it's natural life, and then I
eat it towards the end of its life.

1478
01:45:04.399 --> 01:45:06.840
Oh No, wouldn't it be wouldn't
it be more ethical if all of

1479
01:45:06.880 --> 01:45:10.279
it? You would say, no, I could just avoid eating humans,

1480
01:45:10.439 --> 01:45:12.399
right, Like, that's my argument
with the cows. I would just say,

1481
01:45:12.399 --> 01:45:15.920
I'm avoiding eating cows. We avoid
the problem. But you're quite happy

1482
01:45:15.960 --> 01:45:17.239
for the mice. Did I end
the production of the food. There's gonna

1483
01:45:17.239 --> 01:45:20.479
be mice that die in the production
of cows too, though, what's I

1484
01:45:20.560 --> 01:45:25.520
have no problem with eating cows.
I'm not a vegan. I'm not the

1485
01:45:25.600 --> 01:45:31.479
one who's making the claim something dying
young. I don't know. I think

1486
01:45:31.520 --> 01:45:34.000
we're at three o'clock now, at
least my time. I think we got

1487
01:45:34.079 --> 01:45:40.079
to wrap up this call, unfortunately, But yeah, and kind of just

1488
01:45:40.199 --> 01:45:44.800
say that if you can specific cification, let me know that it has to

1489
01:45:44.840 --> 01:45:49.760
pass those two tests. It has
to. I don't agree with the pustles

1490
01:45:49.760 --> 01:45:53.840
two tests. We come from a
different position, so you're not going to

1491
01:45:53.920 --> 01:45:59.800
convince me tests. No it's not
well, no, it's not so any

1492
01:46:00.159 --> 01:46:05.680
be engaging in special pleading, and
then it wouldn't be takes well. As

1493
01:46:05.720 --> 01:46:10.079
specifically as I'll just point out that
I did specifically, I know people might

1494
01:46:10.159 --> 01:46:13.399
think this has got a little bit
heated, but as specifically as Nick to

1495
01:46:13.520 --> 01:46:17.520
call while make myself and Dan were
hosting together to make for this kind of

1496
01:46:17.680 --> 01:46:23.640
dynamic in this conversation rather than just
having he said, call from backups and

1497
01:46:23.720 --> 01:46:26.680
I'm here all right, I just
I didn't want it to be kind of

1498
01:46:26.800 --> 01:46:29.800
two meat eaters going against the call. I wanted it to be a more

1499
01:46:29.880 --> 01:46:32.439
interesting conversation. And for those Nick, I'll let you go, please feel

1500
01:46:32.479 --> 01:46:35.920
free to call in another time and
thank you for the call. For those

1501
01:46:36.000 --> 01:46:40.800
of you, and there have been
some and I have addressed these on various

1502
01:46:41.680 --> 01:46:45.039
whether it's in the comments of the
YouTube videos or on social media. For

1503
01:46:45.119 --> 01:46:48.560
those of you who say that these
kind of calls on the purpose of this

1504
01:46:48.720 --> 01:46:54.039
show, I'd like to point out
that as far as I'm concerned, as

1505
01:46:54.159 --> 01:46:58.279
the producer of the show. By
the way, I'm just going to stick

1506
01:46:58.439 --> 01:47:01.760
that in there that as far as
I'm concerned, so Keithen has always feel

1507
01:47:01.840 --> 01:47:06.359
good calls for not just the God
question, but the wider questions of philosophy

1508
01:47:06.640 --> 01:47:11.800
and the wider questions of ethics.
It always has had those questions, and

1509
01:47:11.920 --> 01:47:15.279
I'm happy for it to have those
questions. If you want to see more

1510
01:47:15.359 --> 01:47:18.439
feast calls, get your fast friends
to call in. If you don't want

1511
01:47:18.479 --> 01:47:21.680
to see the vegan calls, get
more feists to call him. We'll talk

1512
01:47:21.720 --> 01:47:25.760
to them. And it's as simple
as that. Share the show, get

1513
01:47:25.800 --> 01:47:29.159
your theist friends, get your pastors
and your preachers and your imams to call

1514
01:47:29.239 --> 01:47:31.920
in, and we'll have those conversations. The power is in your hands,

1515
01:47:32.079 --> 01:47:35.960
people, But don't tell me what
calls I should be taking on my show,

1516
01:47:36.079 --> 01:47:40.399
because that is not going to go
down well. Vegan calls are quite

1517
01:47:40.479 --> 01:47:44.079
welcome here, Richard said, my
show, he said, this is mine

1518
01:47:44.199 --> 01:47:49.640
said, I said it. Oh
no, that's a bad precedent. Yeah,

1519
01:47:49.800 --> 01:47:54.520
thank you for all of the callers. We have had an immensely diverse

1520
01:47:54.600 --> 01:47:57.479
show today and I have loved it. Dan, how do you think show?

1521
01:47:57.560 --> 01:48:00.079
And I was good? It was
good. It was good. You

1522
01:48:00.119 --> 01:48:01.960
know, every time the vegans falling, it's always with all of you guys,

1523
01:48:02.039 --> 01:48:04.760
and it's never with me on for
it. So yeah, you know,

1524
01:48:04.760 --> 01:48:08.039
a little bit of a different dynamic
there. It's fine. Yeah,

1525
01:48:08.079 --> 01:48:12.239
that's specifically why I asked Nick to
call him while you were on. So

1526
01:48:12.600 --> 01:48:16.119
have you said to yourself, I
really love the content the ACA creates,

1527
01:48:16.359 --> 01:48:18.960
so I wish there was a way
I could get it all the time.

1528
01:48:19.199 --> 01:48:24.239
Well, then we've got your covered. We now have two twenty four seven

1529
01:48:24.319 --> 01:48:29.760
live streams. A XPTV delivers a
constant stream of shows, clips and specials

1530
01:48:29.800 --> 01:48:33.920
from over the twenty six seasons of
The Eightiest Experience, and now Heathen TV

1531
01:48:34.279 --> 01:48:39.880
provides you with clips from Talk Heathen
Watch, or simply listen to your favorite

1532
01:48:39.960 --> 01:48:44.399
horse and discover some horse you've never
heard of. Visit tiny dot cc slash

1533
01:48:44.479 --> 01:48:49.000
eight XPTV and tiny dot cc slash
Heathen TV to join in the fun.

1534
01:48:49.399 --> 01:48:54.720
So we had the prompt for this
week, which was you are in Hell?

1535
01:48:55.000 --> 01:48:59.319
Who is your roommate? Replying the
comments and tune in at the beginning

1536
01:48:59.399 --> 01:49:02.159
of next week episode to hear the
top three answers, and it will be

1537
01:49:02.520 --> 01:49:08.319
myself and Dan again next week,
although the roles will be reserved and Dan

1538
01:49:08.399 --> 01:49:11.000
will be doing all the talking and
I will be sitting me. The roles

1539
01:49:11.039 --> 01:49:16.199
will be reserved, Yes they will. Indeed, I'll be one telling people

1540
01:49:16.279 --> 01:49:21.600
to mom out next week. Listen, all right, it's a listen.

1541
01:49:21.760 --> 01:49:25.600
It's one hundred and three degrees here. I'm like, I have to have

1542
01:49:25.720 --> 01:49:29.119
the fan off because it'll catch up
on the mic. I'm like scratching up

1543
01:49:29.159 --> 01:49:30.720
sweating. I'm just like I got
a little here there, just like,

1544
01:49:30.960 --> 01:49:34.920
yeah, man, you know it's
I know where it came from. There

1545
01:49:35.000 --> 01:49:39.159
are many ways to support the show, like the video and subscribe to the

1546
01:49:39.239 --> 01:49:42.640
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1547
01:49:42.800 --> 01:49:45.600
that. Support us on Patreon at
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1548
01:49:45.920 --> 01:49:49.239
We now have a channel that houses
all of the ACA in podcast form.

1549
01:49:49.319 --> 01:49:54.439
Visit tiny dot cc slash at n
Podcasts and you can become a part of

1550
01:49:54.520 --> 01:49:58.560
the talk Heath and community in our
fam on Facebook page at tiny dot cc

1551
01:49:58.800 --> 01:50:02.199
slash fb hitch d. If you'd
like to continue the discussion after the show,

1552
01:50:02.319 --> 01:50:06.640
join us in the ac d Our
fan room discord server at tiny dot

1553
01:50:06.720 --> 01:50:12.960
CC slash ACD Discord. I will
be there talking to Kelly, and we

1554
01:50:13.199 --> 01:50:16.359
of course cannot do the show on
our own. We have the fantastic crew,

1555
01:50:16.640 --> 01:50:19.600
but we all love Let's have a
look at them. Look at those

1556
01:50:19.720 --> 01:50:26.159
beautiful people. That's it. We're
rocking all the shirts from all the shows,

1557
01:50:26.199 --> 01:50:30.079
all the shows that matter. Anyway, what's that atheistic? Damn Damn?

1558
01:50:30.720 --> 01:50:34.000
Richard's like ever since he became producer, he's just become maniacal with power,

1559
01:50:34.079 --> 01:50:36.319
and it's just like, yeah,
these other shows, they suck like

1560
01:50:36.680 --> 01:50:41.800
it's only about talk ethen Now I
love truth, ones that I absolutely adult

1561
01:50:42.000 --> 01:50:45.760
with, ones that I listen religiously
every week. Dan, thank you to

1562
01:50:45.880 --> 01:50:50.600
our viewers, whether you believe or
not. If you're an essential worker,

1563
01:50:51.000 --> 01:50:55.199
we want to thank you. We
do it every week and we will continue

1564
01:50:55.239 --> 01:50:59.039
to do it. If you don't
believe this is your community, you know

1565
01:50:59.399 --> 01:51:01.119
we've got those groups, so we've
mentioned goals of them. If you do

1566
01:51:01.359 --> 01:51:05.640
believe, we don't hate you,
We're just not convinced. See everybody,

1567
01:51:05.680 --> 01:51:45.119
thanks for being it, you guys, Thank you. We want the truth.

1568
01:51:45.279 --> 01:51:49.199
So watch Truth Wanted Live Friday at
seven pm Central. Visit tiny dot

1569
01:51:49.319 --> 01:51:54.880
CC slash y t t W and
call into the show at five one two

1570
01:51:55.319 --> 01:52:00.439
nine nine one nine two four two, or connect to the show online tiny

1571
01:52:00.560 --> 01:52:01.720
dot cc slash call tw