The buddhas said, having known with my awareness the train of thought in back
Obrahma's awareness as a strong man, would extend his flex storm or flex his
extended arm, vanishing into the root of the royal Solar tree in the subago
foresting low Carter and appear in that Brahma world. Bark Obrama saw me coming
in the distance, and on seeing me said, come, good sir,
you are welcome, Good sir, it has been long, good sir,
since you're arranged to come here. Noboddy, No, you cannot read minds
or vanished from earth and appear in heaven to talk to the gods. If
you think you can prove the supernatural in your religion, oh, if you
think that Buddhism is just a philosophy and doesn't contain supernatural claims, then give
us a call because the show is starting right now. Hello, Hello,
welcome to Talk Heathen. This is Sunday, August at thirteen, twenty twenty
three, and I'm your host, Richard Deliver and joining me today is the
very wonderful Dan. How are you, Dan, what's up? I'm good?
What's up? Ricardo Ricardo g As I like to say yes, Ricardo
g I am very very very well. Thank you. I've been doing lots
and lots of things this weekend, so I haven't had a minute to sit
now, But that's all good. Dive straight in and let's get some things
done. Let's just start with the announcements. Talkkeeden is a product of the
Etheist Community of Austin. This is a five h one c three nonprofit organization
and it is dedicated to the promotion of atheism, critical thinking, secular humanism,
and the separation of religion and government. Talkkeeden is a life calling show
and we have open lines, so I get your calls in on five one
two nine nine nine two four two or from your computer at tiny dot cc
slash call t H. But of course, before we're jump into the calls,
we have the question of the week always Last week we asked you what
is a prayer request that would ridge eyebrows in a place of worship? And
the top three answers are see not. The best prayer request I could offer
is from a bumper sticker I bought but didn't have the nerve to put on
my car. Jesus protect me from your followers. That would be some neves
on to put on the bumper. What do you think, dan In,
that's a solid one. Would that request? Yeah, that's that's great.
The next one is I'm just going to pronounce the first name because I'm naming,
going to attempt the second one, Oliver. It says a prayer request
that might raise eyebrows. Please pray for God to regrow my foreskin too sensitive?
Yeah, if you attempt to regrow it. Yeah? Right? What
says prayer request? Please contract my hold? Those coming out with these words
todays put a frontalast front aist and that's apparently the muscle that raises your eyebrows.
As you can tell I, I'm not a medical person. That's another
good one. Don't you think that God can contract body parts? I mean
he should, right, I don't see why he wouldn't. If you can
like talk to people through burning bushes and spitting people's eyes and heal them from
blindness, Yeah, why not? Right? So you should have contracted the
body part of the Holy Spirit that entered Mary and gave us Jesus, and
the world might be a lot better place if that was the case. So
we have we have the same well, a different question, but a question
of the week next week, and the prompt for that is you are in
Hell? Who is your roommate? Enter your best answer below the video in
the comments, and next week we will reveal the top three answers and make
their names as hard to pronounce as possible because it will be Dan doing the
reading. But let me ask you this, Dan. In the meantime,
you are in hell, so who would be your roommates? So, if
it's actually hell and the premises I'm there for purposes of eternal torment, it
would be Pat Robertson. Like, no questions asked, because like I have
one and have nothing in common with the man, but also he's just he
is. He is the devil in card it like if if the devil is
real, he exists as Pat Robertson did on Earth. So I don't Yeah,
Pat Robertson probably would be my pick for this particular problem. Yeah.
Absolutely, having a roommate who we don't agree with, I think it would
always be infinitely more interesting than kind of having one you do. It would
certainly make a living life much more interesting. Danny ready to jump into calls.
I'm always ready to jump into calls. You know it. Let's do
it. Who shall we take? Who shall we take? Let's Takemoja?
Who is asking? Why? God? Are you there? Hello? It
was you alive on talk Heathen? What's up? Yeah? My name is
would you. I'm a former I converted to Islam, and I was wondering
that if God wants just people to give the teats and follow his commands,
which are him doing? Good teats, love one another, love your neighbor
as you love yourselves, give charity, take care of war fans, and
so on. So what your agies? What kind of problems you have with
such a you know request? Yeah, well, if it was that simple,
we wouldn't have any problems. But unfortunately it's not that simple. You
know, if there was just a big being out in this guy who was
saying, yeah, this is what you should do, whether or not he
was real or not, it seems like I wouldn't care. But unfortunately that's
not all what he says. And of course, let's get depend on which
holy book you subscribe to, but pretty much all of them have their own
issues, right, So, I mean, we could count the ways in
which they have issues, but honestly, it depends on how much time you
have. Seriously, I mean, it doesn't take very long to look into
the history the terrible cruelty that has been acted by folks who have been true
believers of the book and have tried to follow it, like to the word.
It seems like every time that's happened, there's been more strife than there's
been people living in prosperity. But again, that's my opinion. I don't
know, Richard, you probably feel the same way. Yeah, I kind
of understand it a little bit further as well, And I'd say I would
say personally that it's not just about what that God is proposed to be like.
If there is no evidence that that God exists, I think that's the
more important issue. Why should we even even if it's proposed to be the
most perfect, the most giving, the kindest being there is, if there's
no reason to believe it actually exists in reality, what why should we believe
it exists? And you know, we can we can kind of think about
what a fictional character over God with no evidence it is like all day long
and say, yes, that's that's a wonderful that's wonderful attribute to hold.
But if it doesn't exist and there's no good reason to think it exists.
Then it's kind of a more point. Can I say something Now I'm in
Muslim, Okay, I converted to Islam. But when I read some of
the teachings of Buddha, I don't believe that Buddha was God, or he
was a prophet of God. Whatever. When I read some of his teachings
and I see they are nice, so I say, okay, they are
nice, and I followed them. Or if politician is or philosopher say something
nice, I say it's nice, and I accept it. I followed.
I don't have to believe that that, you know, philosopher or that or
Buddha is God or his prophet of God. So something nice, I don't
have a issue to follow. So the problem if it was a politician.
So if it was a politician or a philosopher, we would know that they
actually exist. And that is That is kind of the point I was trying
to know. But give me on that, Richard. Even beyond that,
Okay, look, you're a Muslim. What does what does Islam teach you
to treat non Muslims? Right? What is the result of me being a
non Muslim? Richard being a non Muslim? Like what happens to us at
the end of our life. Okay, all right, let me read for
you chapter sixty, verse eight. Who says chapter sixty, verse eight,
A lot do not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of
your religion, and do not expel you from your homes from being righteous towards
them and acting justly towards them. Indeed, a lot loves those who act
justly. So this is how I have to treat interesting, have to be
just interesting. So he loves those, he still loves us. So what
happens to us after we die? After you die, you will be judged
according your duds, not your beliefs. So if you do badtiats in this
world, you will be judged according your badtiats. And if you do,
non Muslims get to go to heaven. Yes, non Muslims will go to
the good you haven't. Definitely, if you do good deeds, I can
for you from court are Yes, I can read for you from courant chapter
chapter seven, verse eight. And the weight of deeds that they will be
the truth. So those who who's the scale of good deeds are heavy,
it is they who will be the successful. So it doesn't say Moslin it
say those Okay, how do we define what is a good deed on the
in the eyes of God in which he would judges on that, because it
seems that, you know, what's what some people may think a good deeds
maybe different to what other people think a good deeds. And if it's down
to what God thinks are good deeds, you know, how do we decide
what those things are? If it's mentioned in court? Aren't taking chair of
orphans? H what is it given to relatives? You know? All these
types of things are good deeds. He has to be righteous towards others to
forgive people. Okay, I can well if I don't want to forgive someone,
what happens, if some what happens, if somebody does something tremendously untowards
towards one of my children, and I don't want to forgive them, and
they are completely in the wrong, and I choose not to forgive them for
that is that displeasing in the eyes of God? Would would that send me
to hell? No? No, that would not send you to help your
What is it? If you forgive I lost it. I'll forgive your bads.
Okay, I've just I've just said I wouldn't forgive. I wouldn't.
I've just I've just said somebody did a really really bad thing. Somebody did
a really really bad thing, and I did not forgive them for it.
Would this mean in Alla's eyes, how would we going to hell? No,
No, you are not going to hold a lost days that an eye
for an eye, a tools for a tool, a life for a life.
Okay, But if you forgive, it's better for you. But if
you exceed, then you are around you Okay, So you have to be
you know, just and judge. I haven't forgiven. This is the third
time I've given this statement. I haven't forgiven in this instance, and you
keep returning to but if you forgive it, I haven't forgiven. Yeah,
I said that if you forgie, But if you don't want to forgie,
okay, you are not going to be punished just because you didn't forgive.
As I said that, you have to judge accorded. You know you don't
have to exceed, all right, you don't have to exceed the limit.
If an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, a life for
a life. Let's let's skip back a couple of steps where I asked you
what was good in the sight of Allah and what would be the thing that
we were judged upon, And you said the things that he instructed us,
for example, forgiving people. So in the context of the question that I
asked, that is what Allah would think is a good thing and would get
us into heaven. But I've stated that I will not forgive this circumstance.
So does Allah, because Allah thinks it will judges on the things that he
thinks he's good. The example you gave is forgiving people. I will not
forgive people. Let's answer the question that I'm asking you in the context of
which I'm asking you it all right? And I answered you, I said
that, okay, if let's let's ask a different example. Yes, yes,
let's let's give a different example. Give me a different example because this
one doesn't seem to work for you. Give us a different example of something
that Allah instructs us to do that would be good, that we should do
to get into heaven. For example, in the past, was you know,
free slaves was a good deal, giving to all fans, feeding pool,
taking care of all fans, and so on. So these types of
things were good. Today is also definitely not harming other people, okay,
not harming, not oppressing other people. He's also good avoiding bad deeds.
Avoiding badeps is a good deal. This is the entire question. We're trying
to establish what is good in the eyes of Allah. It's just simply telling
us to avoid bad deeds doesn't really tell us anything because we still don't know
what it considers to be good and bad. We need to know his standard
of good and bad in order to live up to it. As I said,
why elating other people's right is a bad deed? Or pressing other people
is a bad deed? Okay? Avoiding deeds okay, this is very simple,
very clear that if you while it to other people's rights, if you'll
press them, that's a bad deed. And you will be like, why
then, why for the history of Islam, was the was was buying slaves
for example, in using them towards economic labor. Why is this still okay?
Why is there never any items in any adits in any of the Quran
that says buying people is wrong. It doesn't say buying is wrong. It's
a freeing is good? Okay, because at time was not the time that
you know it was It's like I can say today we say, because the
fossil fuel is bad for environment, we say stop the fossil fuel. It's
not working like that. Okay, But a lot tried in every way to
free slaves. Okay, with every every possibility that if you do this,
you have to free a slave. If you do that, seen or that
seeds again, the compension is that you have to free slaves. So he
tried to free slaves slowly, slowly, all right, So why does it
have to be slowly and why not? Like you know right now, like
why is this the difference here? You see what I'm saying, like there's
compromises here in listen. Going back to what I was originally interested in is
yeah, you're saying that non Muslims, folks like us, we get to
go to heaven as long as we understand what is good, right, if
we understand what is right, And Richard was trying to get to this point
too, here's the problem. I don't agree with what Muslims think is good
A lot of times. Granted we probably do have some agreeance with what is
good, But the fact is what we understand is good and bad has changed
throughout history and it's still today where we have very large differences between myself and
majority Muslim populations. So you know, one of those being LGBT people.
For example, how many LGBT people today are still being killed in Muslim majority
countries by Muslims right, Like? It's a lot. Uh, you know
that's an just one example. I mean, we could talk about the history
of slavery, we could talk about the history of Islamic warfare, but you
know, all that to be a side. I mean, that happens with
all religions. I'm not trying to pick on one. It's just that the
reason why we don't have any agreeance with people who still believe in a God
is because people use that God believe to do bad things all the time every
day. It's just that's that's that's probably our biggest reason why, at least
it is for me, why I still choose to talk about this stuff killing
LGBT I said that people can they do that. Of course they call themselves
Muslims, but that's against Islam because according Islam, we have no right to
judge people. The judgment is only on God, Okay, and what is
God? What does God judge the LGBT people, for he says, of
course, that's one is up to him that he knows best. Okay,
I don't know. Okay. So do you think God is supportive or against
LGBT people. Yeah, He's definitely against them, Okay. Okay, so
we have our answers. So God still doesn't give a shit about LGBT people,
right like, he still thinks that they deserve punishment, right Okay.
So as I said that this is up to him, he can, he
can, Okay, So it's up to him. It's up to the great
goodest thing ever to give damnation and hell fire to LGBT people, right like,
As long as he's doing it, that's okay. Yeah, said,
do you see the problem heremogi? Do you see the in humanity in this?
You're just scapegoating your own morality. You're deffering yourself because you think this
is okay. You think this is right, that somebody can give hell fire
and damnation to these other people as long as somebody else is doing it,
as long as it's the greatest Goodness says it's okay. That can justify your
own bigotry. Well, here's what I think. I think that's wrong.
I think that's a bad thing to do. I don't think you should.
I don't think you should judge people for being LGBT, and I don't think
that anything should become of that because you're LGBT. I think that is wrong
because I don't think it's something that you can change. And I don't think
that in consensual relationships there's anything wrong with this. But the vast majority of
Muslim people do throughout history, and that is a fact. There are some
that say, oh, we don't have to judge, we don't do this,
and that the vast majority of throughout history has said that this is wrong
and there should be consequences for it, and that is just a historical fact,
right, yes, yes, stand yes, but it has it will
change because people in the past they were not educated enough, and it is
going to change that we have no right to judge people. And I said
that God is the most merciful and forgiving, he might forgive them. Okay,
I don't know that. Yeah, I don't think there's still Yeah,
there's nothing to be forgiven for it. There It is not a crime.
You're not doing anything wrong or something that is being worth punished for by just
being LGBT, or even just I would say, even go as so far
as to say doing something as a homosexual. Whoa, it's crazy, I
know, but yeah, there's just nothing wrong. There's nothing wrong about that
period. It's just it's just who people are. Yes, yes, yeah,
that's your decision, that's your understanding. Okay. And sure is that
that that shouldn't look a look, that shouldn't that shouldn't stop you from loving
one another, loving your labor as you love yourself. Okay, just because
God says that it is wrong, but most yeah, it sure does.
It stops a lot of Muslims for doing it, and apparently it stops God
from from loving people. Right. No, I said that God forgives people.
He says, I forgive your mind about it if you avoid major about
itsts Okay. According regarding slavery as well, Chapter nine, verse sixty says,
all taxes only for the pool and the needy, and for those employed
to at least at the stories for unless unless of partaking in active homosexual relationships.
Apparently. Yeah. Also, again, we can talk about various adits
that that that talk about laws in which we can govern the practice of slavery.
Right, I mean Yeah, it may be that fring someone is the
ultimate ideal. But if you think slavery is bad, period, you wouldn't
make any concessions for it, right. We wouldn't have these kinds of ins
and out rules that say, okay, well you can do this and you
can do that as long as you treat them right. If we say something's
bad, it's bad for some reason. We don't make any concessions for folks
who are LGBT. We can't say, oh, well, as long as
you're in a loving relationship with somebody, that might be okay. No,
Apparently all of those people have to be forgiven for something, But the Cadets
or the Quran never actually says somebody has to be forgiven for owning a human
being. I think that's really interesting because I think what that points out is
a sign of the times more than anything. I don't think that points to
an ultimate being that knows right from wrong. I think it points to human
beings in history who had some understanding of what they thought was right and wrong.
And that's that's all there is to say to it, honestly. Okay.
In Koran a Last Days, that chapter seven, verse one hundred twenty
seven, Paul said, we will slaughter their songs and keep their women alive.
Indeed, we are subjecting that. So these are bad, bad acts
of the you know, frown to enslave people. Chapter twenty six, verse
twenty two says, most said is a favor of which you remind me that
you have been slaved the children of Israel. So there are many many verses
that you know, say that slavery is a bad piece by oppressor. Chapter
nine sixty of the Child was going to read for you. Yeah, yes,
you do. Again, I don't care. I mean, first of
all, Muhammad had slaves, so let's just let's keep that in mind.
But also again I I'm still saying this is bad. The fact that Islam
can say, oh, in some cases this is bad, that's great.
But the fact is the vast like like in in the history of Islam,
slavery has not only been a practice that has been well received, but specifically
endorsed within particular contexts, and and you can quote different places, that's all.
That's all great. I can equally find places in the Quran that specifically
talked about the laws in which you should engage in as a slave in order
to righteously own a slave. I mean, this is really the concept that's
being had here. It doesn't say slavery is Bam, can't have it,
No, sir, can't be had. They said, Okay, this is
an institution that we're going to accept and we're going to regulate like like that
is just a historical fact. We can wrestle with that all day, but
that's just the history of it, Okay. I said that for even for
these wars that they were saying they were going to get killed. Okay,
So certain things were to not only the consequences of the people accepting people,
okay. And then another thing is that they should also prepare the situation.
For example, I can give you an example that in India, millions of
children are working and in countries like little child labor is forbidden. You cannot
forbid child labor in India because they are bringing income to their family. So
you have to first it is not just lows. You have to be able
to implement those laws. Okay. So you cannot say that child labor is
forbidden in India. Mediums of chi families, well, you know, go
hungry, because this child was about riding for their families. What about marrying
children? That's bad. I'm gonna go here, I'm gonna go here.
But about children, yeah, definitely bad. Who said that is right?
Mohammad? Wait, he just as who says it's right. I'm saying Mohammad
definitely was okay with that. No, no, Mohammad, No, Mohammad
didn't do that. These are pubricators. Mohammad did that, Yes he did.
What do you mean, Yes he did, of course he did.
Okay, okay, let me see, let me see, let me see
the one who told you that Muhammad married a six year old child. He
said, Mohammad split the moon. Why you don't believe the moon splitting?
Do you believe that, Mohammad? Stop? Stop stop? No, no,
do you know do you know who said? Do you know who said
that Mohammad married a six year old child? Do you know who it is
is? Yes? And who was he quoting? Who was Bakari quoting?
Bohari has fabricated a lot of reporting. I'm asking you a question. Yeah,
he created this. This was quoting You mean that he was quoting profit
Mohammad. Yes, yeah, no, he was quoting Asia, the person
or Mohammad married when she was six, that supercar. It was I can
tell you. I can tell you, yes, I heard this from profit
Mahmad. How to you verify that one? Okay? He was lying?
He said that the car indeed one of the most fourth right, he's a
because it's inconvenience, is it? Do you do all the hard and do
you reject all of the No? No, I don't reject all of that.
No, you don't reject full of the Do you do you reject any
it? Don't don't actually comply with the personal beliefs that you hold. Obviously,
only the ones that don't agree with you that you reject. No,
why you reject that? How these that says that the prophet Mamas city the
moon? Why do you reject that one? So you apply the one so
you don't have the one, which is we're not Muji, we're not Muslims.
We don't we don't accept any of it, like we reject all of
it. Right. But but there's a difference between also, like you know,
reciting historical fact versus telling a legend as well, it can also be
different. To reject the beliefs of Islam doesn't necessarily make that all writings from
all Muslim scholars, means that there's no historosity involved in their writings that that
would be that would be insane to say something like that. Right. Of
course they captured like some historical events, but they also had some beliefs mixed
in there that just aren't true. Right, So some of that can be
more easily found out than others, like for example, the moon splitting.
Right, But again there's also lots of people who are Islamic, let's say,
yeah, that's one hundred percent true. So like, I don't know,
I think that's that's part of the problem here, right, It's like
we don't even have a coherent idea of what it means to be Muslim because
there's so many different interpretations even from the very beginning of what Islam even is.
Why why I rejected is because it is not mentioned in Koran. Such
a great miracle is not mentioned in Kora. So that's why I rejected.
It was written in Koran, then I would you know, accept it because
being split into it's mentioned in the Koran. Yeah, I believe it isn't.
Yeah, definitely is absolutely not. No, it is absolutely not that
you know that the miracle of Moses has been mentioned in many, many verses
exactly. So we got chronic verse fifty four one that says the hour is
at handed. The moon has been split. This isn't reference to you.
It's our approach and the moon split. It doesn't say how many pieces.
It doesn't say who splited. Okay, it is that's not predict You all
claim you said it wasn't in the Quran. You didn't say it wasn't in
the specify how many moans I said Prophet Muhammad is splitting the moon is not
in Koran. That's about the hour. When the hour comes. Yes,
everything will be split. Everything, not only movie, the Earth, the
sun, everything, the entire universe will be split. It doesn't say that
it's split to half. Okay, it doesn't say it was a split.
Moojiji. Listen a second, just a second. So far, during this
call, we've established from you that the most reliable the deed that we have
aren't true because they disagree with something that you think is immoral. We've established
the Muslims who do things that you don't agree with aren't real Muslims because they
don't agree with you. And we've also established that things that are in the
Kuran you think are not in the Koran. So we are going to move
on from this call very very shortly, but before we do, I'd just
like to say that I think me, me and Dan aren't Muslim, but
I think it is U, Sir who needs to go and do I'm going
to use it. I'm going to use the phrase everyone, you need to
go and do your research as to what it's actually in the Koran and part
of the Islamic tradition, because you seem to have much less knowledge about it
than me and Dana were both non Muslim. As I'm going to let you
go, I suggest you do that. Thank you for your call. When
you've done that research, please come back and give us another call. Dan.
That was very interesting. No, that wasn't interesting. I mean so
it always comes down to this, and this isn't the first time this pattern
has happened, where it's like, why don't you why are you against people
who believe in God? And then we say, well, because people who
believe in God have also problematic beliefs X, Y, and Z, And
they're like, oh, well, I don't have these problematic beliefs, and
it's like, okay, that's fine. But other people who do believe in
God also have these problematic beliefs, so we are against that. And by
the way, you do have problematic beliefs. If you are saying, for
example, that, oh, the indictment of LGBT people is you know,
up for God to decide, not me, you're basically still saying that,
yeah, you think it's wrong. You just are gonna let God be the
executioner in this trial. You know, you still think that it's a legitimate
court here. You're just letting God be the judge instead of you. So,
okay, that doesn't take away the problem, which is that you think
being LGBT is somehow inherently wrong. And you also, especially when it comes
to Islam, you also get into these things. Same thing with Christianity.
How many times we talked about slavery in the Bible. With Christianity, right,
Islam, of course, the same thing happens. And you also see
Muslims who will deny the marriage of Aisha at six years old, which variety
of Muslim scholars do attest to being a historical fact. But you know,
regardless, it doesn't matter because we come up with these modern understandings of what
it means to be right and wrong, and you try to have to rect
directly apply it to your religion because you find out that, oh there's some
problematic stuff in there, that being child marriage, right. So yeah,
it's it's it's a tail as all this time. Doesn't matter. If it's
Islam doesn't matter, if it's Christianity doesn't matter, if it's Buddhism. You
find this across all the major world religions in an ever ends it never will
Richard, so fun absolutely agree. Done. So, we have been telling
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and we will read as many as we are able to do. We have
some great calls lining up, Dan and you Actus the first one. I'm
going to let you take choose the next one, man, Okay, so
maybe this one will be an interesting one. Let's see we have and I'm
going to try to pronounce your name. Natalka calling in from New York.
Nataka, you are live on Talk Heathen. What's up? Now? Tell
you guys doing today? Doing well? Rank you help? You will we
help you. Yeah, and it's actually it's pronounced nataka nataka. Okay,
I had a screener not that said nataka with an L, but nataka.
I will remember that. Thank you. What's going on? Most welcome?
So I wanted to talk about free will today, okay, from an interesting
perspective and take it. Then let's see if we can take it down a
really interesting route. First of all, I was like to get you two
could go over, and I wanted to get the English quotes name Is it
correct? Am I correct in saying your name is John? Is that correct?
Sorry? Richard? And I'm Scottish. Yeah, he's a Scottish man.
Always give the accent. I'm half English, house of Scottish. He's
actually it's actually Ricardo, Ricardo g Is we call him. Just go with
what everyone is fine, I understand. I understand that we will all the
same to your Americans. It's all this. Yeah, it's that American privilege.
Okay, think about Shrek. Okay, he's the same as the guy
who did the Shrek voice. So you know, right, one of these
days I have a theory about the no true Scotsman fallacy that would really I
think, really, you shed some light on it. It has nothing to
do with free will, but I think you find it quite interesting. Yeah,
so what what is it you want to talk about today? Free will?
And what did you want to ask me? Specifically? Go on?
Okay, well Dan can chine and then on this too if he wants.
But first I have all I have my theory of free will, but I
wanted to see if you two could run down then the ideas, the current
themes, like the current ideas of free will, like determinism versus totalitary and
another concepts like maybe give some definitions and then I'll throw out my ideas and
like you guys can share you guys think we have free will or what type?
Because like if we don't have any free will, I mean, do
we have free will enough to have our economy over our own bodies? And
then are well about our ideas and what we choose to think. So let's
let's let's start at the beginning. I think that you asked for a dumb
down version. So for me, there's three main ideas. There's there's libertarian
free will, which means we can we can act freely. There is a
determinism, which means that we're kind of whatever. We don't make the decisions.
They are kind of made for us via past events that have happened and
past circumstances, and we are just reacting to that. And although it appears
like we're making the decision, where not, actually we don't really have a
choice. And there is compatibilism, which is kind of a mixture between the
two. Where I sit on it, I'm not entirely sure. This is
one of those questions I've thought about a lot, and I don't really have
that answer. So if you watched I think it was an atheistics arians last
week, there was a lot of talk on this conversation and you know,
and different ideas, and I think it was Jamike and Secularity were hosting,
and they were kind of going down the deterministic I'm not sure. I'm genuinely
not sure. I think I think if I said anything, I would probably
fall somewhere between hard determinism and compatibilism. But I don't know where I've I
really don't have an honest answer to the question because I've not decided. Looking
at the different ideas and the different avenues i've I've I can't see that I'm
convinced of any particular position on it as at the moment, and it might
change, but at the moment, I think I've fall somewhere within that kind
of region. Dan. Yeah, So to give an entire taxonomy of the
positions of free will is beyond the scope of what a calling show like ours
could could offer. I think Richard gave a pretty good summation. I mean,
there's like various subcategories and stuff in between there. But what most people
are interested in when they have this conversation is between some version of determinism and
some version of nondeterminism, right with various categories in between there. So like
I would fall if we're talking about it in that binary, I would definitely
fall into the determinist camp, specifically like a physicalist sort of ontology, if
you will about this. So, like, I do believe that our will,
our sense of consciousness, in our sense of decision making, is the
results of physical systems, and therefore it can be changed through physical systems.
So does that mean that I have a conscious understanding or can I change the
things that I can do? Maybe I'm kind of with Richard on this,
I'm not one hundred percent sure if I would say definitively yes that I suppose
that would make me some sort of compatibilist, right, this idea that yeah,
even though we have where the result of physical phenomenon, we do have
some sort of control within that phenomenon. What I like to think of as
like computers, right, Like we know computers are completely physical. There's very
few people out there that would say, oh, yeah, there's some supernatural
stuff happening with computers. But we're able to change the output of computers all
the time because we change the inputs. And I kind of think that's kind
of like what people are, right. We just we change our inputs in
ways that are so intuitive and so natural to us. We don't really think
about it as being in a physical system, but it ultimately is. So
whether that means something in the grand scheme of things, whether the universe was
determined from the very beginning, I don't know, but I do lean towards
more of an understanding that we are physical systems where the result of physical processes,
and so any changes that I make, whether it's my will, whether
it's something I can ultimately control or not, is going to be something physical,
not something supernatural, not the result of a soul, not the result
of anything like that. So there you go. That's my take. Well
to jump on that then, And I don't know if that was if you've
ever thought about that idea of free will as du composed to a computer system
before, But if you were thinking on your feet, kudos to you,
because that was an extremely good thought and an analogy. And to kind of
pump back on that, and to add to that, I'd like to say,
like my theory of free will kind of works, like some people have
a level of determinism and compatiblism, compatibilism going on. Some people operate maybe
to a certain level of of of is what is the free will to telitarian
free will? Some people are totally determinous, like maybe sociopaths and psychopaths that
really can't control their actions but are controlling directions to a such surgical degree that
it is ridiculous because it's like they have sociopaths almost have this level of control
it non control going on about them. Well, I don't have that kind
of this degree on that because if you have a look at the statistics,
if you have a look at the statistics you'll actually find the many psychopaths are
actually surgeons and things, and I don't they really are because they actually helps
them to kind of disassociate from from the kind of thing they're doing. I
don't think that's up there, like, yeah, this shaking good control of
being certally struggling with whether they should carry out with the action and all.
I don't. I just don't think it was. In reality, it's not
going back to your metaphor. Right. Here's what I would say about this
is that folks who struggle with psychopathy, right, and you have to remember
that it's you know, there's gonna be people out there even probably listening to
this who have psychopathy. Doesn't mean that they're going to be murderers and killers,
right, But those who struggle with psychopathy struggle with empathy, right,
They struggle with that. And so when you have that struggle, that means
empathy is going to be less of an input in your physical systems. Right,
we're still physical systems. We have various inputs. I care about what
Richard has to say about me, so I'm going to be nice to Richard.
And he's also the producer of the show, so he could kick me
off at any second. And you know what, I like being on the
show. So I'm gonna do things that are going to benefit my interests that
also benefit Richard's interest. Someone who struggles with psychopathy may not consider Richard's interest,
so that input isn't going to be as strong in their own physical system.
But that's still they're just as physical of a system as we are,
right, They're not like inherently different or even more of a computer or more
you know, cold than than than we are in that particular sense, right,
It's just that their levels of inputs are going to be different than ours.
That's how I would define, right, So yeah, is it possible?
Is it? Like? Basically, so, what I'm trying to say
is like for you, if I endure like the one input for you and
the same input for me, because we might have a certain level of free
will that might differ from ours because of our upbringing and everything that's already been
inputed into our systems, maybe we'll get different results, going, I mean,
we will, we will certainly wait things differently, right. Another example
of this is someone who is autistic, Right, Someone who is autistic might
be more sensitive to sounds, might be more sensitive to other kinds of things
that's going to be weighted differently in their physical systems, in my physical systems,
right, Like, I think you can apply this to a lot of
things. But ultimately I'm not sure if that I mean it has effects on
our decision making. Whether you say that means that we don't have free will
or not, that's up to you, right, I don't know if that's
what that truly means. But it does affect our decision making, and it
is going to affect our will. But the point is we all have this,
right. It's not that some people are more robotic than others in that
sense. We're all just physical systems with different, different weighted inputs, if
that makes sense. Right now, since you two, since both both the
gentlemen hosting Tonnight, Dan and are both have kind of almost a mix of
determinalistic and compatibilism going on, yet you still would say you didn't know.
Yet some other hosts would say they're total determinists. I think some other hosts
at the ACA would answer this question up our different way, because like if
if if some hosts are total determinist they would ask, well, then I
don't think they would say, well, we really have decisions. I don't
think they would describe it as a decision making process because if we don't,
yeah we will, we're not really making any decisions. Yeah, yeah,
i'd say that's fair. I mean again, they're gonna they're gonna describe different
They're gonna have weight towards different philosophical concepts than we would, right so,
and that may be the result of their own upbringing, their own ideas,
their own philosophical training, and how they understand the world. So yeah,
I don't see a problem with that. That's just a route fact. We're
gonna, we're gonna see things differently. Yeah, so there you go.
They're taking my call. Guys. I'm hoping we got the call because as
I did. Yeah, absolutely, I was excited, to be honest,
I was expecting it to be a bit more combatively. Yeah, yeah too.
Appreciate you guys, Yeah yeah, I thought i'd so easy on you
guys with the last ball. You guys handled that last ball quite brilliantly.
Well, thank you for that. Thank we appreciate it. Hey, Well,
we're gonna let you do just just really quickly. I want to share
my my, my, my, my, really quick theory on the note
true Scotsman theory with Richard it'll be it'll be ready. Yes, yes we
wait, actually yes do that. I was gonna say no time, but
now yeah we have to do it. Yes, please do it. Yeah
not even so, no true goodsman. I don't care about what they're eating
in there, if they're putting sugar in their ports ports. But no,
true Scotsman was born out of Premnocta. That's where God damn certain No,
no, no, no, thank you for the call. Please please don't
call back again if you have anything else you want to talk to us about.
I enjoyed that. I was sayin in heads a little bit more on
that. If if you've denied it, Richard, I would have said,
that's a no true Scotsman. Richard is not a true Scotsman, so his
denial of it isn't actually yeah, exactly. Okay, So let's have a
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I haven't actually done a TikTok live before the show and I probably should do
that. Maybe next time I can be the one to do it. But
we have like a million usles right now that we do have a million we
have. Yeah. So we're going to take Mike from Washington, who has
answered the pole question and he is saying that God is not evil? Mike,
how are you? How are you doing it? Very well? Thank
you? What do you got first? Mike? Oh, I don't believe
God is evil? Okay? Well why is that justice? He's got a
justice? Okay? Is it so? So he's not capable of being evil?
Not? Not the way you describe it? Okay, what we describe
evil? Yeah, anything you don't want done to yourself? Okay, So
how does God describe evil doing the others that you have others doing you,
that neighbors yourself as back in because and okay, in the way just in
the way. Do you just describe it to greatest commandments? You're familiar with
that God with all your hearts all in mind. And the second is like
it which all the law and prophets are hung. And that's like neighbor as
yourself, or do unto others if you have others do unto you? Okay.
So what's an example of something that I would think is evil and that
God wouldn't think is evil, or maybe vice versa. Well, I know
there's something that you don't think is evil. Is mutilating kids injected them with
its hormones and uh testosterone and and wait wait wait wait wait wait wait do
you think I so so so God isn't okay with that? No? Okay?
So why does he let it happen? I mean grooming kids for LGBQ.
You think God's for the gay community. Well, what happens in hell?
I mean, is he not? Is it not torturous? Is it
not? Like you know, even worse than what you just described, like
is that not? Is he not okay with? And it's destroyed? The
soul is destroyed. I don't know what scriptures it is at the moment.
But because Kho can destroy kill the body. Just second, do not be
afraid of him who can destroy the body, but be afraid of him who
can destroy both body and soul in hell? So he kills people. Oh,
he's not not afraid any good reason. Not. But he kills people
because I believe you just said that we should be treating others like they would
want to treat us and I don't want to kill children. But you're saying
God actually kills children all the time. Well, there's so there be any
anything before any any child before the age of consent, is their soul is
saved that day. That's the age of consent. God determines that. So
you don't know what it is. So how do you know that there's an
age of consent? Well, well, I think it's thirteen what the Jews?
Okay, So God kills fourteen year olds and that's okay, God kills
fourteen year olds and that's all right. Telling who murders the fourteen Oh he
said fourteen years old? Now run that? Yeah, well okay, So
you're saying there's an age of consent and as long as the kid is old
enough, right, they have decision whether accept God or not. So if
there's a kid that's fourteen who doesn't accept God and he dies, God can
can just destroy their souls, right, And that's justice knowing justice. No,
it's according to one's heart, like like somebody who hasn't for somebody who
hasn't heard the gospel message, it's he'll be dealt with his way. He's
dealt with other people in his planet. Okay, what I'm saying if what
they've heard the gospel message and they're fourteen years old and then they die,
because undoubtedly that's happened. Right, there's seven billion people on Earth just today.
That's not including everybody that's ever lived. There's got to be some fourteen
year olds that have rejected God and have died. They get their souls destroyed,
and that's justice. Well, they're they'll be dealt justly in okay,
and that means destroying their souls, right, soul will be destroyed or they'll
they'll inter paradise or hell. Okay, So is that justice? Then?
If a kid, if a fourteen year old child who rejects God gets their
soul destroyed, that's justice. What God's what God says is justice is justice.
Okay. You know so it sounds like your sense of justice is just
listen to me and do what I have to say as God of the universe,
or else you get destroyed for all of eternity. And earlier, I
believe your criticism of our sense of justice was if you don't do what I
like, then that's evil. It sounds like that's the literal exact same thing
that God says. So what's the difference. Make make children before the age
of consent? Yeah, that they can make decide to have their breast removed,
fury bockers and all that stuff, and then make them pray for gay
people. Do you think that's that's all right? You seem to be sticking
to a very strange, narrow kind of margin subject when there's so much we
could talk about it. That is interesting. I believe you said. I
believe you said the evil was that which we would not want done to ourselves,
is correct? Is that what you said? Yeah? Yeah, So
Mike, would you want would you want your children and yourself to be slaughtered?
It's a simple question. It doesn't really I require much thinking about.
So would you would you say that somebody? Would you say that somebody will
commands whole families to be slaughtered is evil? When by that definition of it,
so they're not evil for commanding it? Is it defend it? Is
it? Is it wrong to defend your country? Right? Let's let's let's
let's start that again. If somebody commands nobodies have not mentioned defending your country?
Whatsoever would you say that slaughtering an entire people whole sets of families is
evil? Men, women, and children, infants? Right, right,
Just answer the question and we'll get to what we're talking about shortly. Well,
I'm want to explain that from God's point of view, he said the
reason why that Jews were wandering around for No, No, we're not.
No, we're talking about your point of view, because you stated categorically I
seem to remember and you seem to have just agreed with it, that evil
is that which we would not want done to ourselves? Is that correct?
Look at I would expect to be shocked. I was if I was going
to rob somebody and they had a guy. Why is it so difficult to
answer a very very simple question, Mike, Mike, is evil that's which
we wouldn't want done to ourselves? No, that's too simple. No,
it's not too simple. It is the definition you give of evil earlier on
it in this very call. You're now seem to be backtracking, and I'll
tell you why you're backtracking. You're backtracking because you have realized at this point,
Mike, Mike, I will mutea I will use I will use I
will use a mute button if you don't let me finish right. You're backtracking
because you have realized that under your own definition, your God is evil you.
This is why you're now backtracking, and you're saying it's not simple.
If it's not that simple, you shouldn't have given that definition. Me and
Dan didn't give you that definition. That's the one you offered to us.
You said, evil is that which we wouldn't want done to ourselves. Else
that is that is the thing you stated. Right, So that is the
case, because two minutes ago you said it wasn't. Yeah, yeah,
let me let me explain though, Luciday here you're running rings round yet I
know that's what I do. Was Mike, Mike, Mike, Mike.
If God told you to kill somebody, right or wrong? Wrong? Wrong,
So if God tells you you need to murder somebody like that, that's
wrong. Categorically, he doesn't tell you to murder. He didn't tell me
to murder anybody. Well, I mean, didn't murder anybody. Anybody who
lives by the sword dies by the sword. Okay, yeah, but but
one, I mean Richards already made allusions to pastors in the Old Testament.
But even beyond that, why does God get to kill people. What's the
differences their creator? And he knows hard man, he look. But doing
unto others, you should do unto others what they should want unto you.
Right, Hey, would you kill Jeffrey Dahmer if he knew it, knew
what his future was? Sir? The media knights were not Jeffrey Dahmer.
We also do you know what the media knights crimes? The media? Maybe
you were, Mike. The media knights crime, Sir, was worshiping other
gods, worshiping idols in the eyes of God. This means that God thought
it just to murder them for that crime and their children. So in this
world now we have many millions of people who do not follow the God that
you follow. They followed different gods and worship different gods. So by that
very standard, it is just under that system for all of those people to
be commanded by God to be gone out and murdered. Is that correct or
not? It's not their god we're talking about. We're talking about the God
of the Bible God. I know, we're talking about the God of the
Bible. Our baccup courst is sat at the minute with his head in his
hands, shaking his head in despair because of the knots you're tying yourself in.
I'm going to let Dan take over for just a minute. Oh,
I'm just I'm more interested in this cor idea of what's right and wrong,
because if you have a God that violates this idea of right and wrong,
I can't call him a just god. Right, A just God, I
think you would agree, or maybe you don't tell me if you don't,
is one that follows a core just set of principles right, and it's the
violation of said principles that we would call them unjust. I mean, would
you agree that that's what would make a just God? Or do you think
that there's something else? Here's a difference. You aren't God, I'm not
God. But God knows the man's the man's heart, hit the man's thoughts.
You don't. I don't, Okay, okay? So what what the
fact that he knows our hearts? What does that mean? How does that
make him good? Satan presumably knows our thoughts and knows our hearts. That's
why he tempts us to do things? Does that make him God? Does
that make him just? Stampt us? He doesn't stampt anybody. Wait,
what do you mean? What? Wait, what are you talking about?
It's my choice. No, it's not my choice whether to go to heaven
or hell. Right, God decides that, right, he's literally judge.
Yeah, but you don't. You don't, you don't want it. Okay,
So it's not my choice. No, no, no, it's not
my choice. You just said it's my choice, but it's not. It's
literally God's choice. Yeah, okay, so it's not my choice. So
God can decide. I whim and just say, actually, you know what,
Dan, You're going to hell. And you would say that's just he
doesn't have to give a reason, right, you would just say, that's
just you're getting the one right now. You don't you don't believe in him.
You don't believe in his Commandment's his judgment, right, I don't believe
in his commandment. So I deserve to be eternally destroyed. Never have my
friends or family ever see me again, because I'm on a talk show on
a Sunday afternoon saying God's not real And you think that's just well, hey,
it's appoint at once for man to die and then judgment. You can
talk it over with God. This riddles. This is riddles, Mike.
You don't talk like this in your daily life, right. You don't talk
like this to your friends and family. If if if your neighborhood boy stole
from you, you wouldn't start talking in these riddles. You'd say, hey,
man, that's wrong. I need to get this act because it is
very simple. But for some reason, when it comes to the complete destruction
of human beings for all of eternity, we have to go into these weird
circles and talking these these these weird riddles about what makes something right or wrong?
Because you know this is fucking wrong, Mike. You know it's wrong,
right, It's wrong to just eternally destroy people for just acts of speech.
Right. I'm not Jeffrey Dahmer, Mike, I didn't fucking kill people.
I'm just saying I don't think God is real and for some reason that
justifies either one eternal torment or two eternal destruction. How the fuck does that
make it right? What's just about that? Well? I just told you
how you know, when you die you get to talk it all with God?
Yeah, because God says so, right, because he's the fucking dictator
of heaven. Right, And we have to all all hell the great dictator,
Mike, is that your reasoning just whatever the dictator says goes? A
good father do you have? Have you had a father, a father figure?
Do you have a father, Mike? What about him? What's a
good father like? You know what? A good father doesn't say? Do
what I say because I said so. A good father tells you why something
is right or wrong, Mike, will happen otherwise. Yes, a good
father will tell you the consequences of his actions. But the consequences are not
the result of a father destroying you for eternally. Again, I really need
to make this point clear. Right. My father is a mortal man.
He has a mortal understanding of the world, and he's gonna do what he
thinks is best for his son. What's best for me isn't my eternal destruction.
Because I said I don't believe in God, my father doesn't have any
control over that. The God of heaven could easily say, oh, I'm
here. Actually, here's good evidence for me to exist, and that be
fine. I would say, Okay, he exists. He could be an
asshole, but at least he exists. There's a lot of people that are
assholes and exist. But God doesn't do that, Mike, because he's not
real. I don't know what to tell you. Is world to live depends
on if you're privileged enough to live in a first world country or not.
For the most part, and even the actually that's not true. There's a
lot of plenty of people that have great lives in places outside the first world.
It depends on where you live and where where, who you are,
and what race you are and what class you are born into. Basically,
it's better for some people than others. Unfortunately. Good what good? What
what does that mean? Do craw Dad's good? What? Yeah? Anyway,
I don't know what the fuck that means, Mike, here's the deal.
Be a man about this. Oh, I'm using to be a man.
Card. Let's be a man about this. Do I deserve hell?
Do I deserve eternal suffering? Yes? Or no? At the moment you
do? You can eat? Okay? And why is that because I because
God says I do? Why? Why why do I deserve it? Due?
Not to steal? To treat others that you want to be treat it
Rock seven eleven is for your assessment and put people out of work because you
know you're too lazy that you mean you enjoy stealing. You know why the
stuff we talk about stealing, Mike, I'm not stealing anything. I'm just
talking about me, just me objectively. Dan here talking to you. Society
can't. You can't. If everybody decides to be a thief, society won't
work. There's a reason why there's not talking talking in riddles. I don't
know, Rich, I'm kind of done with this conversation. I think me
too, Mike. Go and have a think about things, because you've tied
yourself up quite a lot during this conversation. And to be honest when you
when you end by kind of straw man in Dan and pointing out that it
is going to go to hell because he's eaves and I don't believe that to
be true. I don't think that even if he did, he wouldn't be
going to hell because of it. Mike, give us a call back another
time. When you've actually thought about what you're saying, rather than just coming
on the same stuff, it makes conversations much easier. Mike had a tendency
to tie himself up in riddles, a little biting that call. Yeah,
but go on, go on, go on, You're no, I did
can't take over there. You know what, I you appreciate it because when
I tell someone, hey, when I said be a man, what I
really want to say is like, hey, tell me that I'm gonna go
to hell, and then I deserve it, because like ninety percent at the
time people will be wishy washy about it. At least he says I deserve
hell. Now he said I deserve hell because I'm steeling or something. Honestly,
I didn't really catch that part, but you know what, like that's
the thing, right, The point with this is you have everyone has their
own sense of justice, and their own sense of justice most of the time
is in very much contradiction with God's sense of justice, and just pointing this
out somehow really brings out that cognitive distance. We're so easy to say,
oh, yes, all these people deserve hell and torment, and suddenly when
you put a face on it and says, oh, so I should just
go there like right now if I die, that's just suddenly suddenly it's like,
oh, well, you know, it's this kind of wishy washy answer
anyway. Indeed, indeed, he was, I'm slightly disciplined pointed that,
yeah, explained yourself because he was me Saya thinking you would go and go
alpha mail on us as well, I know, be a man. You
know what, I immediately regretted my word choice because there's connotations to that phrase
now that you can't that anyway. The whole thing I'm gonna start, I'm
gonna start like talking about the red pill and stuff. This this is the
start of my downfall. You know. Uh, we do have many people
on the lines. But before we get to an animal call is I'm just
going to give a shout out to our top five patrons who done is very
kindly going to read out for us. Oh, I get to read the
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So emailers at TV it's Etheist hyphen Community dot org and letters know we are
going to jump straight in to another one. And I don't know which one
to take. Dan, have you got any preference because we've got so many
calls, We've got so many callers. You want to talk to armed,
Let's go with Ahmed. Yeah, Ahmed in Bangladesh, let's do it.
I don't think i've talked to horror from Bangladesh on this program. Ahmed,
how are you doing? Hello? How are you? We're doing great?
Amen? Thanks for calling from Bangladesh. I don't know what time zone is
there, but it's probably really crazy relative to ours. So tell us what
you got? Yes? Can you repeat? Oh? Yeah, So I
see from the cast screener that you have something you want to talk about involving
scientific miracles in the Quran. Is that right? Yes? Okay, So
I want to talk about them. Quran, chapter number twenty two one,
Worth number thirteen. There's alas said, have the have have the disbelievers not
seeing that the heavens and the earth were joined entity and we separate them and
made everything from water, every living thing from water? Will they not believe?
So? Allah hair is talking about the big bank, and is he?
Now? Is he? Let's let's start there, which Ahmed Yah,
did you say the big bank? So the big bank? Because in the
Big Bank at the singularity, the heaven and the Earth were the heavens and
the earth weren't joined. The Earth wasn't there. Yeah, and there wasn't
water either, unless talking about he created every living thing from water. Now
let's go back this. Let's go back to the previous point, not jump
forward. Let's stick to the criticism we're just made. That is definitively wrong
that the Kuran states the heaven and the Earth were not joined in the singularity
at the Big Bang. So the Kuran is wrong. What is your response
to that, this space, the matter, everything were joined in the singularity.
No, everything wasn't joined in the singularity. Everything was potential in the
singularity. They weren't separate entities which were joined together. The Earth wasn't there
joined to the heavens. They didn't exist at that time. They were not
joined to The Koran is wrong. No, I think you're reinterpreting it.
No. Im. What you are doing is called post hoc rationalization, where
you take something which is written, and when some further knowledge comes along,
you apply that further knowledge to that thing which is written. But in this
case it is not the case. I can give you a pretty decent description
of what happened during the process of the Big Bang. Can you tell me
where the Koran tells us that process happening never mentioned a thing? Sorry?
Can you repeat that? So Kuran never mentioned that singularity or the Big Bang?
Yes, I know that the Kuran never mentions the singularity or the Big
Bang. This is the problem. This is how why your post talk rationalizing
it into there. Do you agree that's mentioning? Do you agree that saying
that the Earth and the heavens were joined together. Is not a description of
the singularity. Yes, you do. So you're you're called in to say
that the scientific miracles in the Koran. The first one you gave us was
that the Koran mentions the Big Bang. And you're now recounting that, you're
saying, actually you're wrong on that point. Yes, I think that's very
good. Thank you. I appreciate that that was relatively simportant. Maybe just
need to move on then, yeah, yeah, going up and look at
the other rather than rather than going through lots and lots of different claims,
go back and look at the other ideas you think you've got about the Quran
and science, and just look at them yourself and talk yourself through them.
Like we've just had that conversation. Hammada, I'm gonna let you go.
I really really appreciate the false rightness, and honestly, yeah, I don't
know if there's a genuine to do. I don't know if there's a language
barrier there or what. But regardless, there are many, many, many,
many Muslims that make the claim. Oh, look, the Koran,
particularly the Koran, makes these claims about science, and we can know the
Koran is truth based on the scientific claims that it makes and how science has
like later been able to prove the truth of these claims. This is just
one of many that are used in this So it's just, yeah, it's
just not true. That's not how the Big Bang talks about the creation of
the universe. Doesn't talk about the Earth and the heavens being one single mass
or anything like that. It's a little bit more complicated than that. So
yeah, yeah, that's gone. With another call, let's jump in with
Marissa, who wants to talk about the possibility of a higher power. Marissa,
Oh, I'm well, how are you really good? Thank you?
So what is it specifically we want to talk about. Well, I I've
grown up on television. I'm not gonna lie. Give you a little background
as far as how I've come to warn at right now. I grew up
Christian with a Celtic pagan mother. I grew up in the South, so
I was surrounded by a lot of Southern Baptists Jehovah's Witness and I was even
I was so hardcore into it that I was going door to door asking have
you heard the good news? So very very hard core Christian and whenever.
But whenever it came to death, the loss of a loved one, nothing
ever solidly stuck. You know. I couldn't accept the whole uh if God's
will that sort of thing, you know. And so I started opening up
my mind and I started talking to my mother about it, and she introduced
me to paganist By even then, whenever it came to guess nothing made sense.
There was always some vague excuse as to why, why, Why things
happen the way they happen. Everything happens for a reason, and I just
I can't accept that. And so at this point in my life, I'm
bordering on theism and atheism, where Like, I don't think that there's anything
really out there, but if there is, this is the possibility. And
that's the topic that I'm trying to get to today. Okay, so I've
got a response to this book. I was never theeased. So before I
kind of give you my opinion, I'm going to pass you on over to
DNA was taken that journey himself. Yeah, and as can speak from experience.
Look you say this, so you say there's a possibility that theism could
be true, and I would agree that if we're just talking about general theism.
We're not talking about like Christianity in particular, but theism. I mean,
there could maybe be a possibility that it's true. Sure, but what
do you think the likelihood of that possibility is? If you could put like
a number on it, What do you think you were at right now?
I'm like, I'm one of those people that gives percentages on everything even though
I know absolutely no statistics. So honestly, the possibility of there being something
out there, yeah, I give it a good twenty five percent of possibility
simply because I have to put rash some sort of reason behind everything. That's
just the way my mind. You know, Sure, and I agree.
I think it's good to put reasons. It's good to have reasons for why
you believe the things that you do. Right, So the next question that
immediately follows this, then, yeah, that's something that I would ask myself,
and what I recommend you ask yourself, because it sounds like you're already
doing this, is what would raise this probability? What would raise this percentage
and what would lower it? So what would be an example of something that
would raise this would make you more confident? In the idea that theism is
true, a true spiritual experience such as Okay, anything from as beautiful as
a vivid dream with an angel that pops in like like with Joseph telling or
with the angel telling Joseph that Mary is coming to be pregnant, and blah
blah blah all the way into as bad as something like the idea of stigmata.
Okay, yeah, if I were to experience something like that, I
would truly believe that there is a higher deity, a true conscious and and
and active deity somewhere else. Okay, Okay, that's that's a I think
that's a great example. Right, Personally, experiencing something inexplicable might raise your
personal probability as to uh theazzy being true. Right, So conversely, I
would like to know what would lower that chance for you, if you can
think of anything, just kind honestly, just the lack of evidence, the
lack of proof. Okay, yeah, I think that's I think that's fair.
So, so at this point, I can't tell you what you should
or should believe, or what you can or can't believe. I mean,
I'll give you my opinion, right, and Richard can give you yours.
Here's why we we lack that belief. Right, Here's why even despite some
of which some of the examples you've given of what could make theism true,
why we still resound calling ourselves something that's not theism could be agnosticism, could
be atheists. Different hosts have different opinions for themselves, but they want to
call ourselves. But none of us call ourselves theists. And the biggest reason
why is because for the exact examples that you mentioned, the stuff that would
likely make theism more true, we haven't experience for ourselves. Right, there's
no hosts at the ACA that have had any personal, inexplicable experiences that they
think makes theism more likely than not. We haven't seen any miracles. We
haven't seen God talk to us in our dreams or outside of our dreams.
Right, it just hasn't happened to us. And when we look at other
people that have made those claims, we have some questions. Right, there's
questionable circumstances for why these things have happened, and ultimately, there hasn't been
very definitive evidence or definitive arguments that have made theism more likely than non likely.
So that's where I've ended up today. I used to be someone who
was a theist. It used to be someone who was a deeply devout Christian.
But after really looking at this evidence and realizing, huh, there's a
lot of different faith claims that we could point to. How do we know
which one's real? I realize I don't have any reason to believe one faith
claim over another faith claim, and so I've kind of renounced all that and
have tried to make as little faith claims as possible and see where that gets
me. So that's where I'm at, And that's where what I would suggest
to you as well, if you're interested, is saying, hey, what
are some stuff that we can put all of our money into versus not?
And where do we go from there? Because that's really the best you could
do for yourself. So anyway, that's that's my line of questioning, Richard.
So there you go. I know you passed it over to me,
so passing it back to you, Yeah, I think kind of along the
same lines. Yeah, I think I'm like correct in thinking that you said
maybe said that if we didn't have evidence against something, or we should have
evidence against something, to not consider the age true. Oh, absolutely right.
Okay, if someone presents an idea, I don't believe at all that
we should reject it. Okay, so there has to be some level of
skepticism with everything. Yeah, So what level would you put that skepticism?
Though? If somebody suggested something along the lines of a kind of a statue
floating around Venus with a nice minus helmet on, who could flap the feet
and fly through space like people swim in the sea, would you would you
think that that is that is something that should be entertained. Personally, no,
but there are those out there that believe in a giant spaghetti flying monster
that came out of a volcano. I mean, okay, I personally think
that's silly, But if that were the case, it's hey, if you
come up with proof, I'll believe in it. Yeah. I'm just trying
to establish kind of what parameters you're setting on possibility that that's all I'm trying
to establish at the moment. And something you said earlier regarding you know,
if if someone had a dream, you'd find that kind of compelling as evidence.
What would you do if if somebody had a dream that was totally convincing
to them that the angels visited them, and the angels had come from Yahweh
and were telling them that Jesus was true and Jesus was God, and that
Christianity was the true religion. And yet you had somebody else who was telling
you that they'd had a dream that said Vishnu had come to them in the
dream, in Hinduism was indeed the true religion, and all other religions were
false. What would how would you assess which one of those were likely true
over the other. What kind of yard stick would you use? Because you've
said you'd find that kind of thing compelling. But if two people were having
you didn't say that, Sorry, what was it you said? Because I
don't want to misrepresent you, So if you if you just repeat what it
was you did say, Well, no, honestly, I wasn't trying to
contradict what you were saying. That is what led me into believing for a
short time, or at least feeling for this short time. I'm very very
touchy about the word belief because beliefs is a very very strong word, and
it gets people killed, it gets loved orm's hurt, you know. So
an idea that I had there for a while, was based out of omniism,
where it's it's been the same group of higher beings, just different cultures
of humanity have different names for them because of different languages, different different ways
of thinking. Not to mention the influence of the leaders of that time.
History is written by the winners of war. So I'm kind of confused that
I'm kind of confused about what you're telling me you would find compelling. I'm
a bit kind of stuck on and it may be me. Probably is me,
but I'm very I'm kind of stuck on what you're telling me that you
would find compelling for a belief in something. Is there a definitive thing that
you would find compelling? Honestly, for me personally, it would have to
be some sort of physical thing, like I would. I wouldn't deny that
person's beliefs that this god or this angel or this deity came to them in
a dream. I'm not going to deny that that didn't happen, because honestly,
I don't know. I've never okay, anything like that. Let's put
other people aside them, because I think this is where I might be getting
confused. Let's put other people aside, and let's talk about you what you
would find vincing. Well, like I said, it would have to be
some sort of true spiritual and physical or experience excuse me, in other words,
eracle. Yeah, And in the absence of that stigmata, in the
absence of that and I mean stigma is a contested thing anyway, So maybe
not go there, But in the absence of that physical thing, because you're
calling to talk about the possibility of a higher power. So in the absence
of that physical empirical thing that can be tested, do you think that is
good enough without that thing to say that, well, we should withhold that
there is a higher power? What do you mean there? Withhold? I
mean not accept it to be true, honestly, Yeah, I don't know,
to be honest. Okay, So this is what I'm trying to dig
down that this is what Okay, I'm trying to dig into this to this
idea that you kind of you've called in about the possibility of a higher power,
and you've said that it's the kind of the empivocal thing which would demonstrate
to you that a higher power existed. But in the absence my idea of
a potential higher power. That's my idea of a potential higher power would would
be not it wouldn't be something conscious the way that most people tend to believe,
like a true comes into human form and is all knowing, all powerful.
I would feel more that it is a just a consciousness, an ethereal
ball of light, if you will, that has no form, that has
no conscious way of thinking, and our existence and the possibility of souls let
me or sorry, it is our purpose on this earth is to give this
consciousness the ability to experience life, to experience the physical realm. If this
were the case, if this entity type that's quite specific. Maybe I said,
that's quite a specific description for something that you say you don't actually accept
is true, and something that you said would you'd be convinced off only if
it could be tested in pirically. This sounds like something that couldn't be tested
empirically, So you know, it sounds like kind of to me an idea.
Yeah, it's well, it sounds to me like you're clinging to this
idea. You're presenting this idea just for the kind of just for the sake
of something to hold onto, is what it sounded like to me that is
there, that is the honest truth, like this is my final grasp and
accepting the existence of any ethereal being that humanity has concosted. Yeah, yeah,
I guess, uh, I guess that's up to you to figure out
whether that's something that's worth holding onto or yeah, accepting death. Yeah yeah,
Like like for me, you know, like I haven't observed anything that
has a mind that isn't physical, right, I've never seen a mind that
hasn't been bounded by the physical in some way. So to say that there
could be an unphysical mind that exists out there would defy how I understand what
minds to be. So that you know, that's something you might think about
with this, if if this is an idea that you're interested in deconstructing.
But honestly, if this is just an idea you want to hold onto you
because it makes you feel better about death, or it's just something that gives
you some some peace, I mean, you know that's up to you,
Right, It's up to you to decide what you want to do with it.
But for us, at least for Richard and I think we're interested in
trying to figure out what's most likely and sticking with that, right, because
at the end of the day, we do have to make decision. You
have to make hard calls. Certainly there's stuff we can hold off on,
like like like you know, the incompatible ism debate we were having earlier,
right between like free will and stuff. Right, that may be something that
we may never know, but also may not have any immediate consequences, right
Like this is this maybe another example of that. It's up to you to
figure out whether it's going to have consequence for your life. But there's a
nobility in trying to know what's true as well and being honest with yourself.
The fact that you've gone as far as you have, I mean, that's
that speaks to your character. I think that speaks to you saying no,
no, I want to, like, you know, figure out what's true
from the bullshit, and I encourage that. But it sounds like there's another
step for you, I guess is what I'm trying to say, This may
be another thing that you have to kind of wrestle with and decide whether it's
My target was to try and get your opinions on the plausibility of it all.
Yeah, yeah, I mean non physical minds, right, I've never
seen evidence of their existence. It seems like everything that has a mind we
can point to something in physical reality. So that would be my contention with
it. Yeah, and that coupled with your kind of the idea wrapped up
in that that you've got, You've got this idea about souls which have a
purpose towards that non physical mind as well. I think is adds kind of
negative evidence, if you like to it. It adds weight against the possibility
of that thing, because then you're not only talking about one thing, this
incomporeal mind, You're also talking about these other things, souls, which are
something completely different and and deserve a conversation in their own right as to whether
they're possible. And these two things interacting with each other. There's a lot
of stuff there. But I agree with Dan, You've come a long way
already, and keep asking the questions. Keep, you know, keep,
It's very helpful to have self dialogue and talk through these things yourself and kind
of look at you know, go down the route of saying, you know,
well, I think this might be a possibility, and then I've got
this other thing which I think might be a possibility. Let's kind of deconstruct
each one of those things and look at the possibility of those existing in their
own right together and kind of dismantling it in that way, I think is
the thing I would do if it was me having this conversation with myself.
But well, we'll let you go give us a call back, and you
know, let's when when you've had a think about it, give us a
callback and we'll continue with the conversation. Then it's certainly an interesting kind of
avenue to go down. We have still got calls. Callers, don't go
away. We are going to go over time a little bit to try and
fit you in. So we will do the best we can, and just
going to give a quick set of announcements before we do. If you happen
to be in the Austin area August twenty seven, twenty twenty three, for
the Backthroughs weekend, then please considering joining us for the live broadcast of Talk
Heathen and the Eightiest Experience Talk Heathen. We'll be hosted by Forrest val Kai,
Jay Mike, and Jamie four Mobs We get a triple there, and
the Eightist Experience will be hosted by Johnny p Angel. Forest Valkai and J
Mike. So you get true two triple bills that day. That is going
to be very interesting. Doors open at noon and we very very much hope
to see you there. We're going to jump straight in for another call.
We're going to take Atari, who wants to say that the problem of evil
proves God. Atari? Hello, how are you doing? Come? Hello?
I'm fine? How about very well? Thank you? You think the
problem if evil proves God? Oh well, yes, not directly, but
I think it's a good argument for it. So like to make such dodguments
about God, they make only with such toudgments, said and I John Sander
said, how can no deliversake such dodguments? Can you extended to me?
Yes, because I still have preferences whether or not a God exists. I
still have things that I would want to happen, it would want not to
happen whether or not a God exists. So God isn't really necessary for us
to have an understanding of right and wrong. Again, that's not saying that
objective right and wrong exists, or that I even have access to it,
or if I if I even think that's a coherent concept. But when people
talk about right and wrong. You can still say it's relative to people's interests,
and that's still a system of right and wrong. Again, doesn't have
to be objective in a universal sense. It can still be relative to people,
and that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Achieve some objects too.
Can you cannot make such judgments about gods? Which is suppossible conscend all of
only worse? Well, I can make judgments about God, why can't I
object And yeah, I don't believe in objective morality, But why does that
mean I can't make judgments I objectively? Dan can still make judgments whether objective
morality is real or not right? Because you are You are ask something God
exists in a for the support for the argument, and then saying that if
got the assistance, he couldn't he couldn't exist because it's he's seem or wrong.
Well, yeah, I don't believe God exists. You're right, But
I'm just I'm just entertaining the idea that if he did exists, whether he
would be a good person or not right, Like if Adolf Hitler was a
mythological figure, I could still assess whether he was a good guy or not
right, Well, I would like to ask you what you think about free
will? Okay, well that's kind of different from what you wanted to talk
to us about. Originally, we kind have already talked about free will,
to be honest, we kind of gave our opinion on that. But I
mean, does this make sense? Let's talk about this like people can have
subjective judgments and still determine whether something is right or wrong, right, I
mean, do you agree with me on this? You can make judgments tip
about yourself as to churn out to you, but you are making when you're
talking about God, you are making judgments about the horror world. So there
has to be objective all right. I don't see you. I don't see
why there has to be objective morality? Why if me judging God, why
does that mean has to be objective ethics? Everyone not trust you? Why
does that matter? Do do do? Do? Do do do? I
probably can't say that. Actually, probably get in trouble nothing, okay,
okay, all right, anyway, anyway, all right, that's fine,
No, that's cool. I think we're kind of getting towards the other show
here anyway, So we should be wrapping things up. Bridget you have everything
else on this or no. I mean we didn't really such the problem of
evil much there, but you know, give us a call back on Sarry
and you know, I have a think about a tar sy and have a
think about it. You know, I think we've we've had a couple of
callers who've called in today who haven't really thought through the kind of things are
presenting. And you know, maybe before you call in the call in shore
we're kind of telling us that God exists because of X. You might like
to form an actual argument as to why that's the case. You know,
it wouldn't make for a much more interesting conversation. We are going to jump
in to uh have a look Jason, who was asking if society becoming more
religious or more atheists. We are going to try and get to everybody on
the lines, so please do stay on the lines. If you are on
the lines, Jason, I've lost Jason. Jason appears to have dropped,
So we will take Nick, who was talking wants to ask about veganism.
Called a couple of weeks ago. Nick and we had a little conversation and
I asked you to call back in Nick from Ohio. What's going on?
Yeah, I was going to answer the question about like who I had taken
Hell, I guess as a roommate, I'd take that, my guy,
you know, take one for the team, you know. Damn, thanks,
thanks, Nick, appreciate it. That's that's a good one. Yeah,
well, yeah, I wanted to call it about veganism. I know,
Dan, I know you're vegan, so go Damn. There are dozens,
There are dozens of us dozens. Yeah, yeah, I guess,
so I don't know. I guess to jump right in. I was going
to just mention that, like, so people kind of misunderstood what I was
talking about last time based on the common section. So here's my position.
The positions sort of isomorphic to atheism. So it's that if you ask most
people, So if you ask them, like, it's it okay to shoot
rocks at songbirds, it's okay to cut the fits off of dolphins. I
went to a flea market, found a box of free puppies. Can I
grabb a ball peen hammer and fire up the grill at home? You know,
people will react all of those very negatively. And the question is why
is it that we know accept in all these other circumstances that we're gonna say
that it's unethical to negatively impact their well being, or however it is you
want to justify. It doesn't really matter to me that you're just gonna say
that that's unethical. But we're gonna make this. We're going to carve out
this weird set of exceptions for weird pecular set of animals. And I don't
understand what that difference is. And the thing is that that's kind of a
null hypothesis, just like atheism is. And so to reject you can either
reject the n hypothesis, state that there is some difference, or you could
fail to state that difference. But I can never really prove to you that
you don't have any justification for separating those things out. I hope that kind
of makes sense that the burden of proof would be on the person that's trying
to justify that they're not special pleading. Does that make sense? I think
I think Richard has to answer this because my opinion is going to be very
different from Richard. I think I think that you know, we talked about
this in the comment section a little bit. I'm kind of disappointed you've jumped
back said this rather than you know, the thing that I specifically asked you
to call in and discuss, which I think was much more interesting. And
I am going to get to viam answering this. I agree that we shouldn't
harm thinks for the sake of harming them. Absolutely agree with that. Yeah,
I think I think vegans. See I have this thing with veganism,
right well, I have no problem with veganism whatsoever. The only question I
have of vegans is if you specifically think it is a moral imperative that we
have we become vegan, I want to know your reasons why, and that
is it? It just being just via being vegan. I have no problem.
I'm gonna I'm gonna come in here, all right, I'm coming in,
coming in. He's coming in hot. Here's the deal, Richard.
So there's an author called Melanie Joy who writes about this. She has this
book. In the book it titles a mouthful, It's why we wear cows,
Love dogs? Sorry, why we love dogs, eat pigs and wear
cows. You. I can't even say it right. I had to look
it up because I can't remember. So she talks about this concept that Nick
is alluding to, is this idea of carnism right. It's this idea that
we kind of put animals into these social categories of what's accepted for them to
be eaten, what's acceptable for them to wear their clothes from, get our
clothes from, what's acceptable to cause harm to if it's to our benefit.
And there's some animals that don't fit that that kind of criteria. So dogs
are a great example. Most Americans love dogs. They love it. If
I said I am going to get my dog from the local dog farm,
don't larry it and just to get some clothes. But don't worry. They're
locally sourced. You know, they're they're organically fed, and it's really great.
You know some most people would still be against this, and so you
kind of come into the question why. And so I think Nick's point is,
is it is it appropriate that somebody has to be accountable to that?
Right that if you already have this social category that describes what an animal should
be and what's acceptable for them or not, do they have to be answerable
to that? Is that a fair summation, Nick? Yeah, except it's
actually it's a weirder position than that. So it's it's not even just why
is it that, like we make these strata for like the the animals themselves.
And the thing is that it's not as though you could do anything to
a cow. It's not that we identify like a cow, a pig,
and a chicken. We say, okay, these animals, you can do
everything. What happens, there's a lot of times when you argue with people,
what you'll find is that they'll say that like, oh well you can't,
for instance, or I'm against factory farming, or you'll have some other
caveats, which actually is an even more contorted position. So you're not just
special bleeding across the animals that you're choosing, but you're also really picking and
choosing those rights. And I would sort of give an example, which is
sort of a funny example, is like let's say, for instance, somebody
said to you, I agree with you as everything on property rights, except
I specifically make the exception that it's okay to steal blue cars, right specifically
steal, not vandalized specifically blue cars. It's the thing is that the burden
of proof would then be like try and argue against that in a way that
isn't asking someone where the hell did you get that from? Why specifically blue
like why specific typically steal like. It's actually a very bizarre supportive position.
I think I just want to get crystal clear on is that if you don't
provide that justification for that distinction that you're making, you're engaging in special pleading,
which would be fallacious, and veganism would therefore stand. If that makes
sense, So that would be the proof is that you need to propridate justification
to so far, nobody's provided a justification, and so therefore veganism would stand,
and it would stand for the things that you would also agree with me
on free puppies and so on. Interesting, it's an interesting route to take
with it. Richard, What do you think on the puppy thing? I
personally, although I don't do it and engage in it myself because it is
not legal, I have no problem with people eating puppies. I said it
when we and we had this conversation in the comments section, I told you
I was not a commist, and you know, we didn't enough time to
really explore that. If it is, if it's legal and the animals are
treat well during life, they're not in many cases in puppy farms, which
is my contention against puppy farms. There is nothing wrong with people eating animals.
I don't think it's not a position which needs justifying. Devil's advocate Richard.
People are animals, right, yes, absolutely, so we can raise
people, you know, No, but I would have no problem with people
eating animals. Okay, wait for people are animals though, Yeah, but
I would have no Okay, so I wouldn't have so here here's this is
the next point though. Right, we're the blue cars in this analogy,
right, people are the blue cars. We're animals, but it's okay to
do not do to people, but we can do to other We have We
are not we are We are classed as different to animals. As human beings.
We are different form of animals. What makes us different? What makes
us? What makes us not touchable? But other animals touchable? Because we
are? We are human beings. And I don't necessarily disagree with I'm not
a humanist in every respects. You know, if somebody attempted to harm my
daughter, I would have no problem with harming that person. Yeah, I
wouldn't necessarily. I wouldn't go around and kick a dog. I wouldn't go
around and kick a person for no reason. But see, but see,
there begs the question why wouldn't you go and kick a dog? Because I
think it's a nasty thing to do. I wouldn't. I wouldn't. Why
why? Why do? Why does the dog's life matter? If you're okay
with eating them? Why does it matter if you kick them? Because that's
causing harm for no reason? Eating in animals and necessarily causing harm to it.
It's not causing it. It's not causing harm to it, Richard,
it's ending their life. We don't end with difference. There is a difference.
This is great. Yeah, there's a marked difference between causing harm to
something. I don't agree with factory farming. Yeah. I don't really quickly
jump in because it seems like if we're trying to throw in these justifications,
so we're trying to come up with some justification that demonstrates their distinction. Okay,
So let me quickly give you two tests the any justification has to pass.
Okay. So the first one is that if you have if you think
that you can draw the line where you can say something is you know I'm
drawing such and such a line. The first test is quite simply the thing
that you want to be ethical or unethical has to actually be divided by that
justification. And the second thing is that it has to come out of some
sort of framework of well being or some sort of framework of morality. Don't
worry about the second premise or the second condition, because everything fails the first
one. And so, so, for instance, if you're saying that,
yeah, I'm going to just axiomatically assert that human beings are special, I
can axiomatically assert anything, just as Dan pointed out. So okay, so
that doesn't work. So you know, last time they tried lab grown meat
again, we wouldn't make that justification for specific we're still narrowing down that specific
set of animals. Wouldn't actually justify that appeals to nature again, that would
include cannibalism, that wouldn't So everything is just failing this first test. Oh
yeah, like humanism West sign know you don't take this position of humanism again
people have problems with eating, Like let's take dolphins or elephants or gorillas or
neanderthals, right like, Okay, so that definitions of humanism or decision of
humanism that wouldn't necessarily really divide what they want and so on. We can
just go through all the lists. In fact, all of these things are
all the same arguments. So I sort of here's an anti plug. I
actually create a website. I was trying to create like a talk Origins archive
of every single argument against veganism. And the problem with that I realized about
halfway there is there's not like five hundred arguments against veganism. Uh, it's
actually there's only three. And so all of these these are all the first.
This is just the first argument. I will assert that animals are okay
to eat as funneled through some intermediate property acts. And why does it?
Why does this feel Why does the vegan argument always come down to eating animals?
Why isn't it the killing of animals? Well, that's just the well,
I mean, that's just like that's such a shorthand, you know,
I mean, but yeah, it's not. No, no, no,
it is not. It is not Why does it? Why is it eating?
I'm asking your specific play why it's eating animals and not killing animals?
We get well, when the process of eating animals, right, we farm
them, we're ending their life before they would naturally end. Right, So
like cows can live up with like twenty years, but depending on whether they're
farm for meat or for dairy, they can live up to like five at
max on average. Right, So we are ending the lives short for the
purposes of consumption. And so the debate is, you know, okay,
so that's it's not them, it's not that's the biggest thing. I mean,
like, so you can't exist in life without like causing some taking away
resources from or harming animals for the most part. Right when I drive my
car, I probably gonna hit a fly or something. Right, So,
like there's some that would say that even that's unjust, But regardless, we
all have to mitigate, like what what's just with interactions and what's not and
with with veganism, particularly when it comes to food consumption, Like that's something
you can make a change to do. I became a vegan. There's other
people that become vegans. That's that's that is something people can do without it
being as drastic as one might think it is going to be more dress some
people animals killed, say again, and the production of vegan diets are animals
killed? Of course, Yeah, it takes land mask to to to farm.
But the question about argument, But no, it doesn't because here's why,
Richard. You have to raise crops in order to raise animals, right,
it takes more crops to graze the cows and chickens that we do.
Maybe what let me let me just really quickly, Nick, Nick Nick comes
into here too. Nick, go ahead, Yeah, So the thing is
that and what about crop test is the exact same first argument? Does that
actually separate out the things that you want? Animals die, so like,
I guess mice die somehow that justifies eating cows, pigs, and chickens and
not humans. Hmans die in farms, like in farming accidents. And yet
you would say it's more of the humans. You understand what I'm saying,
Like, it doesn't actually create that dividing line. So again we're like kind
of dust for me though, it's kind of a massive issue for me.
Well, it is a massive issue for me that if the argument is yeah,
but it wouldn't animal. Nick. If the argument is that an animal
dies is be an animal dyeing in food consumption, is in the creation of
food or in food consumption is the problem, then a vegan diet suffers from
the same problem. Just to say, well, it's it's to a lesser
extent. It is not a justification. Hold on, Richard, hold on,
you can't be serious about this, because that's like saying I'm going to
raise a human farm. And if you say, oh, well no,
no way. Wait wait listen, listen, listen, listen, Richard,
listen. I'm raising a human farm and you're saying, well, you know
that still produces it, and and and and and I give this this,
this fence that says, well, you know your farm, your cow farm,
still produces animal harm. So really, my human farm is fine.
Actually that I mean that you would say that wouldn't suffice, right, Okay,
So I have a human farm, right, I'm farming arm, farming
dogs or whatever. What's I'm farming gorillas to eat, okay, And you're
saying, actually, you know that that proves harm. And I say,
well, what's your silu? Should we just eat cows? Instead? Well
that that that's not a good solution. So I'm just gonna keep farming gorillas
or keep farming human beings like that wouldn't that That doesn't compute? Right?
And the thing is too like, yeah, there is total land masses usage
like is less when it comes to vegan diets overall in particular because you get
direct feed from plant crops to humans, whereas you have to grow plants just
to raise the animals. And not only does both of that use land,
but it also uses food. So we're actually using more food overall to feed
the animals on Earth that we do for our animal crops than we then we
even do for plant crops that go directly to humans. Does that make sense?
Like we're actually using more farmland right now just to raise the animals that
we eat and we do for for humans overall. So so there is like
a very significant less usage of land overall and therefore less animals dying overall.
If you if everyone on Earth went vegan, Like if if that was the
case, and we could also which we introduce more ethical farming methods ethical farming.
But what's ethical about killing a sentient you know, cow early on in
its lifespan when I can just avoid eating cows altogether? Well, is it
is it not more ethical to treat a cow and like grow it in a
free range field and feed it and treat it well and give it veteran every
cat when it needs it. Yeah, but that's not what happens when you
buy a cows though, that's not like, it's not what factory farming is.
No, No, exactly, I agree with you. This is the
whole point I'm making. Is it not more ethical? Is it not more
ethical for me to as a child and then you know, let it live
it's natural life, and then I eat it towards the end of its life.
Oh No, wouldn't it be wouldn't it be more ethical if all of
it? You would say, no, I could just avoid eating humans,
right, Like, that's my argument with the cows. I would just say,
I'm avoiding eating cows. We avoid the problem. But you're quite happy
for the mice. Did I end the production of the food. There's gonna
be mice that die in the production of cows too, though, what's I
have no problem with eating cows. I'm not a vegan. I'm not the
one who's making the claim something dying young. I don't know. I think
we're at three o'clock now, at least my time. I think we got
to wrap up this call, unfortunately, But yeah, and kind of just
say that if you can specific cification, let me know that it has to
pass those two tests. It has to. I don't agree with the pustles
two tests. We come from a different position, so you're not going to
convince me tests. No it's not well, no, it's not so any
be engaging in special pleading, and then it wouldn't be takes well. As
specifically as I'll just point out that I did specifically, I know people might
think this has got a little bit heated, but as specifically as Nick to
call while make myself and Dan were hosting together to make for this kind of
dynamic in this conversation rather than just having he said, call from backups and
I'm here all right, I just I didn't want it to be kind of
two meat eaters going against the call. I wanted it to be a more
interesting conversation. And for those Nick, I'll let you go, please feel
free to call in another time and thank you for the call. For those
of you, and there have been some and I have addressed these on various
whether it's in the comments of the YouTube videos or on social media. For
those of you who say that these kind of calls on the purpose of this
show, I'd like to point out that as far as I'm concerned, as
the producer of the show. By the way, I'm just going to stick
that in there that as far as I'm concerned, so Keithen has always feel
good calls for not just the God question, but the wider questions of philosophy
and the wider questions of ethics. It always has had those questions, and
I'm happy for it to have those questions. If you want to see more
feast calls, get your fast friends to call in. If you don't want
to see the vegan calls, get more feists to call him. We'll talk
to them. And it's as simple as that. Share the show, get
your theist friends, get your pastors and your preachers and your imams to call
in, and we'll have those conversations. The power is in your hands,
people, But don't tell me what calls I should be taking on my show,
because that is not going to go down well. Vegan calls are quite
welcome here, Richard said, my show, he said, this is mine
said, I said it. Oh no, that's a bad precedent. Yeah,
thank you for all of the callers. We have had an immensely diverse
show today and I have loved it. Dan, how do you think show?
And I was good? It was good. It was good. You
know, every time the vegans falling, it's always with all of you guys,
and it's never with me on for it. So yeah, you know,
a little bit of a different dynamic there. It's fine. Yeah,
that's specifically why I asked Nick to call him while you were on. So
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