Hello, and welcome to the show. I am Martin Willis Shure, host
and we have a great show. One of my favorites is on tonight Nick
Redfern, and I'm the very first interview with him about his new book.
I'm always excited to do that with Nick because he has so many great books
out there. This The title to this book is Flying Saucers from the Kremlin
UFOs Russian medaling, Soviet spies and Cold War secrets. And a lot of
people that listen to the show know that I have a little bit of an
affinity for Russia. I know Russia has been in the bad news in a
bad way in the news often, but I have gone there many times.
It's an interesting culture. I've tried to research UFO zero talk to Nick a
little bit about that. I want to thank everyone that helps out with the
show. Anyone can do that. You go over to podcast UFO dot com.
That information is there. Our blog this week is by Charles lear Is,
a UFOs and school children. He discusses not only like the Ariel school
incident, which many times we talk about here, but all other cases that
are known with school children. There's quite a few cases and it's really fascinating.
So check that out over at podcast UFO dot com. And I think
that may be enough for right now. Alejandro, how are you, Yes,
sir, I'm doing well. How are you, my friend? Good?
Good, Welcome to the show. And so lots cooking, as we
talk about every week lately, lots going on in the UFO world. And
I don't know what you want to tackle first, but yeah, I guess
i'll go down the list. At the beginning of the list that you'll find
of the UFO headlines at open mind dot tv is a great story from Tyler
rogue Away. So we've both talked to him and we've talked about him because
he is a defense writer in the mainstream. He writes for a site called
the war Zone, and he's been writing about aerospace and aerospace technology for his
entire life, and so that's why it's important for him to start writing about
UFOs and getting involved in all of this. And people have been frustrated because
he's been doing both. He's been talking about, you know, maybe this
is some secret tech that these navy pilots have been seeing. And he's also,
however, been kind of talking with pilots and putting together the facts,
so you can kind of see his mindset, how are we struggling with what
the heck could this be? It doesn't seem to be our tech? But
is it? And he does a great job of making the point if it
is our tech, the maneuvers and what they describe these things doing is absolutely
phenomenal. So I think the more significant story he's had lately. He's had
two in the last week. One of them was, well, maybe they
are seeing these airborne radar reflectors. You know, certainly that when they count
all of the sightings that the Navy's having, especially the tic TACs. However,
he also got ahold of one of these pilots that was just on this
latest episode of Unidentified. These pilots who were a part of the Roosevelts Group
and twenty fifteen the Roosevelt Strike Force, which is essentially the aircraft carrier.
They were off the post coast of Florida and they saw these objects that seemed
to follow them to Iran, and they saw this cube shaped object inside of
a clear sphere. He asked, you know, other pilots, is this
common? You know? Is this something that others are seeing? And his
story was and the headline is recent UFO encounters with Navy pilots occurred constantly across
multiple squadrons. So he found out there's a lot more pilots than just this
one small group that is reporting this sort of thing when they are across multiple
squadrons, so that this UFO phenomena is affecting, you know, more pilots
than just the what have we heard maybe four pilots so far, four or
five on the unidentified television show. So I think we're going to hear a
lot more about that, especially now that the Navy has changed their rules to
be kind of more pro UFOs, to be more open to having their pilots
report UFO siting. So that's pretty exciting. I think that's some really good
work that he does there. Yeah, Yeah, I always like reading Tyler's
work. That's good stuff. Yeah, I mean, I think it's really
important to also see the process that mainstream journalism goes through, especially someone like
Tyler who's open to the idea that there is something going on here that these
pilots are you know, accurately describing what they're encountering and if they are,
which he makes a point that you know, it's they've got to be then
what the heck is this? And you see that struggle that they're going through.
Yeah, so that's really interesting. You know, both you and I
have also talked to Calvin Parker and this is pretty cool too. Calvin Parker
was part of the Pascagoula incident, which happened in the seventies, you know,
where he and his buddy Charles Hickson had encountered these strange creatures. Now
he's going to be speaking at the UFO Congress. However, there has been
some really pretty neat news. They Mississippi officials have commemorated his account. There's
an NPR radio interview that you can listen to that we have a link to
here. But yeah, kind of like Tom Reid, he's had some actual
issues with this historical marker that commemorates his incident. But in New Hampshire,
Betty and Barning Hills, they their incident has been commemorated by a state marker,
and now the Pascagoula case. So that's another important thing where kind of
these historical societies across the country are open to, you know, at least
making this historical markers to mark these events or at least the occurrence of these
large cultural events, even if they're UFO or alien related. And I think
you will agree that Calvin Parker comes Across is very credible. This is one
of the more credible cases out there. Absolutely, and to think that he
was I have to give credit to Michael Loke who wrote the blog for me
years ago. And basically Calvin came out of many years of staying away and
out of interviews and he actually reached out to me initially several years ago after
he read the blog, which is awesome because now he is he said,
he's only going to be doing this for about a year or so, but
he's really in the limelight. And I think his timing was perfect for actually
writing this book with phil Philip Mantel. I got those two together and that
was a big success. And he's going around the world and stuff. He's
in the WorldWind because people are taking him seriously, and I think that's because
things have changed in the UFO field. They're not just passing it off as
you know, a crazy guy, and he is. It is a very
credible, credible case, good one. I agree. I agree, Yeah,
there's a very credible case, and they said that, and I'm not
sure if this is the case, and as far as I know, it
still is. It's after the Congress, After the UFO Congress, he's not
going to be doing talks or anything anymore. He's going back to fishing.
That's what he says. Yeah, we'll see full time fishing. Yep,
yep. That's even part of his email out there in Mississippi. Yeah,
but yeah, lots of other stories, of course, related to the Navy
talking about UFOs, Congress talking about UFOs, and the last week we've heard
from a senator, Senator Warren who's part of the Intelligence Committee, him talking
about being briefed on UFOs and then why he thinks that this is serious and
it needs to be taken seriously. And then of course the President has had
a little bit of a mention on ABC about all of this, which has
also kind of created this media river which is all still going on. So
we have a lot of talk about UFOs and even some sightings of loon balloons
oh yeah that have sponsor UFO UFO sighting reports. But you know, as
the public gets more interested in this topic, they're also going to be more
interested in these cases that or these objects that often create these UFO reports that
aren't UFOs. But that's going to happen. But still we all get educated.
And this doesn't account certainly for all of the Navy accounts or other serious
accounts that we've heard across the along the way over the years. So it's
an exciting time. All eyes are on what we do and that's a lot
of fun. Yeah. Hey, our good friend Lee Spiegel contacted me,
I think it was yesterday and about this spike of methane on Mars. Have
you read anything about that? Well, it's not necessarily Yeah, they've they've
they see methane on Mars, and the latest rover is designed to detect methane
on Mars, and it's in a location where there is a lot of methane.
That is exciting in that it could indicate life. But you know,
I think that there's a lot of news in the astrobiological world as well.
There are other indications of potential life and other areas. So I mean,
it's certainly an area to keep an eye on, but it just it may
indicate life, it's not anything definitive. There are other processes that create methane
gas, but at least this is one of the kind of hallmarks that they're
looking for. They were looking to see at what concentrations methane exists, and
they see it in very low concentrations. What that means to them is too
that there's a necessity to keep looking for potential for life. But they also
make the point that this could be leftover methane from methane that was from life
before. However, methane does get dissolved by solar rays, so it can't
have been that long ago. But these are all the factors that they,
you know, things that they think about. They can figure out how long
would methane last on a planet, you know, given the deterioration of methane,
and these are some of the things that they're considering and looking at right
now. And methane is another sign that there could be life on Mars today.
Just like we have microbes in our soil and in our rocks, that
could be the case in Mars. And you have also a headline on your
website about that life could have existed much earlier on Mars than on the Earth,
which is pretty interesting as well. That's another yeah, that's another new
discovery that they're looking at is did have Mars have life a long time ago?
We know now and this used to be kind of this used to be
strange to think that Mars had water or has water. We do know there
is water there. I think now that they suspect there's liquid water there.
The surface of Mars is not conducive to liquid water, but it could be
if water is seeping out from the ground, and there syndication there could be
liquid water underground, of course, as important to life as we know it,
and they're looking at the possibility because you do see that the surface of
Mars was manipulated by water, by massive amounts of water, and you know,
as much as ten years, maybe even a little longer than that.
That was kind of a crazy idea that Mars once had water. Now it's
a given that Mars had lots of water like we do, rivers and streams
and lakes and possibly oceans, and so that maybe they had an abundance of
life in the past and it's just gone now that the atmosphere is left and
the conditions have changed, right, magnetosphere gone and everything evaporate. I'm glad
we're talking about Mars with a hat you're wearing. It worked perfectly. Yeah,
perfect time. And I didn't even know you were going to go there.
But this is from my Mars television shirt series and I got that from
nat Geo and you guys should check that out. It's online streaming. But
a great show where it considers a lot of these ideas, the science behind
that and behind us going to Mars. In fact, Brian Bender from Politico,
who writes a lot about you know, space and these sort of things
and UFOs lately he's in the show Unidentified. He predicted today on Twitter that
we won't get to Mars till twenty forty. Why this show covers a lot
of it. There are a lot of considerations. So just because Elon Musk
might be able to get us there in the next ten years doesn't mean we're
ready, nor does it mean that humans can survive. There's a lot of
stress on the human body. There's a lot we have to figure out still
that we haven't radiation shielding all of these sort of things, and we really
haven't moved very far. So we've moved more further on the propulsion then we
have on the actual habitation area, and that's probably what's going to stall us
getting humans to Mars, even though we may have a lot more as far
as probes and maybe even humans orbiting Mars in the next ten years or so,
to actually stay there for a period of time, it's going to be
a little more difficult. Yeah, there's so many hazards. It's it's a
it's most likely a one way trip is the best we could do with this,
you know, even in ten years from now. Probably. Yeah,
so, I mean Bender predicts even when we get there, if if that
is indeed twenty forty ish, that it'll be a one way trip and possibly
even a suicide mission. Yeah. Yeah, there's so many hazards, like
you say, and it's what fun it will be to live underground, right,
Yeah, well that would be one potential actually. Bob Bigelow, a
Bigelow Aerospace just announced in the last week also a different system where essentially you
take these fabric shoots almost like these straws that are put together, and you
fill them with rigolet. And this is in the case of the Moon.
Essentially you sent you fill them with the material you find on the surface of
the Moon, and then you drape those over your habitats and that protects you
from radiation. So it's kind of a novel idea. And to live on
the surface, yeah, because that's the main concern. Living underground is one
way to avoid the radiation. But this is another way that could also be
cost effective, fairly simple to do, and another, you know, realistic
way that we could avoid the radiation. Excellent. All right, Well,
hey, thanks so much. Yep, thank you all right, and we'll
be talking to you again next week. As always, I appreciate you.
All right, have a great show, you bet all right? Take care
all right, everyone, So we are ready to roll with Nick Redfern.
He's been on the show many times. Like I said in the beginning,
he's one of the favorites here. And this time he is going to be
talking about his book called Flying Sources from the Kremlin, UFOs, Russia,
meddling, Soviet spies and Cold War Secrets. He's a full time author.
I can't believe the amount of books this gentleman writes. He's always fun to
talk to. Welcome to the show, Nick, Hey, i's you going,
it's going great? Good, Good to have you back again. Oh
thanks, yes, So Nick, we don't have to go. Because you've
been on this show a number of times, we don't have to go into
your background like we often do in the beginning of these shows here, but
if you would, why don't you tell us the genesis of this book?
What made you decide to write it? Well, you know, when whenever
I'm writes in a new book, I always try and find, you know,
something that's new. You don't want to just go overall ground and race
cycle stuff. It's just pointless, you know. And there are so many
different aspects to the UFO phenomenon that you know, you can go in any
different directions. Now, just to sort of one of the things I talk
about in the in the introduction of the book is how the theme of the
book is how the Russians the height of the Cold War, throughout the Cold
War, fabricated and created bogus UFO cases as a means to sort of psychologically
sort of I'll try or if trying to alter the mind the state of mind
of the US public and the military. And it's sort of very bizarre set
of situations. Now, I should sort of state first that before we get
to the issue of the Russians creating fabricated UFO cases. There's absolutely no doubt
in my mind that there is a genuine UFO phenomenon. Now I'm quite open
as to whether it's sextual terrestrial, or if it's sort of interdimensional, multidimensional.
I don't know, you know, I'm honest enough to to admit I
don't know what the phenomenon is, or where it's from and what its origins
are. But I do believe there is a genuine UFO phenomenon which has nothing
to do with military experiments and things like that, even though that's a part
of it. You know, there is a genuine UFO phenomenon. But what
was particularly intriguing and which a lot of people have overlooked, is the fact,
excuse me, is the fact that although there's a real phenomenon, that
same real phenomenon, at the height of the Cold War was sort of manipulated
by Soviet intelligence as a means to create fake stories of UFOs, bogus tales
of alien abductions and crashed UFOs as a means to try and convince the United
States that the aliens were communists. Now, as strange and as bizarre as
that might sound, I actually managed to get a number of documents that actually
confirm that the US intelligence was deeply worried. But if enough people read enough
UFO books, like, for example, Georgia Damski's first book wrote in its
first Prince sold one hundred and twenty five thousand copies, and Adamski himself was
a supporter of communism. A lot of people don't know that, and so
there was deep concerned that, you know, this guy with communist leanings was
selling books about Aliens who were communists as well in the figures of one hundred
and twenty five thousand, and the Russians portrays sort of followed this angle more
and more as a means to try and from their perspective, destabilize the US
and have us think communism is actually quite a good thing. And so that's
basically the theme of the book, you know, as a point out of
a full unbeliever in the phenomenon, but it's a phenomenon which intelligence agencies around
the world have used and manipulated as a means to achieve a very different goal
in many respects. So is this more of like a Cold War thing that
you're talking about, because you know, you think about the first the modern
day, UFOs are nineteen forty seven and after, you know, post nineteen
forty seven. So it's all mostly the Cold War situation, well most of
it is, but it does go right to the present day. I mean
the title's flying sources from the Kremlin, and that the subtitle will give you
sort of an idea of the theme. It's UFOs Russian meddling, Soviet spies
and Cold War secrets. So a lot of it does cover the Cold War,
but in saying that, it does actually take the subject right to the
present day and demonstrates that at least as late as twenty eighteen that this research
was still being done by the Russians as a means to again manipulate the West.
Now, one of the things I should stress is that, I mean,
whoever's doing this, or the people who are doing this, primarily it's
Russian intelligence, you know. I think one of the things that you know,
a lot of people don't necessarily appreciate is that, for the most part,
you know, the people in the relevant countries, whether we're entirely friendly
with them or not, they're just like us. They're normal, regular people,
you know. But all of us, the regular normal people, are
just caught up in this sort of mess of governments, you know, sort
of going head to head. You know. Actually, ironically, I have
several Russian friends here in the in the Russian area, and you know that
they're just like us. And of course that might send a stupid thing to
say that. Some people think, well, they're not you know, because
they're Russians, but they are. You know, they like to go on
a Friday night and have a couple of beers and hang out and have a
good time. But what it comes down to is that we're not the ones
who dictate in the situation. And that goes for the same for the people
in any nation. You know, the Russian people and no different to us.
They're not demons. They don't want to destroy us. People in the
government may want to destroy us, but they don't, you know, like
us. They just want to be able to have a good life and not
have to worry about mushroom clouds and radiation, you know, right, And
like you mentioned, um, you know you have some friends, of course
I've I've been my girlfriend of many years is Russian, and uh, there's
a lot of a lot of them want to come here, you know,
because it's that they feel it's a better life here than than over there.
And after spending you know, an equivalent of I think about the couple couple
of months over there, I can see why it is much nicer here.
I like being here. And my dad went to Russia about thirty something years
ago on vacation and I had a great time, you know, went to
the Kremlin, Saint Petersburg and Moscow and all over the place. It had
a really good time. And and and you know, took a bunch of
photographs and it was far more sort of severe then, you know, as
it was as it is today. But you know, but I think,
I think what all this kind of demonstrates is that you know, whether you're
born in Russia or you born in China or you're born wherever, you know,
we are really the pawns. And and we can actually all sort of
resonate with each other and hang out. Rather we could talk to each other,
you know, with respective languages. Um. But it's it really is,
you know, the governments that that screw everything up. Yeah, because
you know, the like I said, I mean that the Russian people are
no different to us the Chinese. You know, it's it's it's the people
who quite pull the strings to sort of deep end up demonizing everything, you
know. Yeah, yeah, we have to go to breaking about one minute
or so here, so and I want to get into you know, specifics,
but keeping the one minute in check right here? Do you want to
you want to start out by like, what do you talk about at the
very beginning of the book, how do you get well, yeah, sure,
well the book basically starts with US intelligence when the whole Flying Source of
phenomenon began in the summer of forty seven. They started to look into these
cases and got significant rumors from the intelligence people that the Russians were working on
this is like written really, this is just almost post Kenneth Arnold. We're
trying to find ways to use this real phenomenon and spread stories that yes,
the phenomenon's extraterrestrial. Oh and by the way, their communists, you know.
So that's that was what really fired up US intelligence to just sort of
hit back psychologically, you know, when they heard that the Russians were trying
to convince the US people that's you know, the phenomenon was communist in nature,
and wouldn't it be great to be a communist you know how about that?
Wow? Okay, So we're going to head to break, all right,
everyone. My guest tonight is Nick Redfern and we will be right back
right after these messages hanging there and we're clear Martin, And we've got three
and a half minutes in this break. Okay, set the timer, thank
you, all right, Nick, so um during the break here, we've
got three and a half minutes, and so just keep that in mind.
I wanted to ask you how many what number of book is this of yours?
Anyway? Actually I have to think about it myself, but it's about
it's fifty three, It's something like that. So that's amazing. They're abouts
it's a mid fifties. Yeah. And no one that I know or have
no author I've ever spoke two in the past. Has your discipline And for
the person, for the person that is unaware of how you write your books,
can you just tell them you treat it like a job. I treated
by as a job in the sense that I, you know, I am
kind of sort of driven in in the way I work. But I wouldn't
want people to think it's just a job. You know, it is,
and it's a passion and oh, of course I didn't mean it. Yeah,
yeah, it's like a passion. It's exciting and it's fun to do
it, and you know, and uncovering information. So as long as you
know, as long as I've got that energy and that sort of fascination and
excitement for it, I'll keep doing it. But in terms of sort of
you know, how I structure the research and the writing, you know,
I like to do nine to five Monday to Friday, and then I've got
weekends off. I've got evenings off, and never work evenings, never work
weekends. Laptop shuts down at four o'clock on Friday after noon, I don't
touch it till nine o'clock Monday morning, and amazing Monday. But when Monday
comes around Monday morning, I do work nine to five Monday to Friday,
you know, and as you can get a lot done. I'm sure,
really, I'm sure. You know. As an I don't really consider myself
an artist. I'll say I'm a painter. So but if I'm really into
a painting, I can't put that down. How do you like, if
you're really on a roll, how do you stop at four o'clock or whatever?
It is that's actually a good question. What I tend to do,
you know, if you've got sort of six or seven things swirling around your
mind for that particular chapter, and you know you it's time to finish,
what I genuinely do is to sort of get, you know, shoe to
paper and jot down what those five or six really cool extra things I need
to do to make the chapter really good. So I'll sort of make like
bullet points, and then next morning I'm still those bullet points in front of
me and in front of and in my head as well, you know,
so I can pick up straight away. I don't feel, you know,
that I've got to keep going because I'm on a on a roll, you
know, I wake up on a role. So well, I guess I
guess that, you know, I guess I would say that I have more
of an obsessive nature in uh, you know, like when I get into
something, I really like to get through it. And so I can't do
what you do in your work, but I really I really admire it,
and I know it's obviously it works very well well. I think, thank
you. Well, I think, you know, I think any kind of
work in the art, you know, whether it's poetry, painting, um,
you know, photography, music, whatever. I think. You know,
everybody, um, you know has their own angle, you know.
And I always have to say to people, anybody and everybody has at least
one story in them that can be turned into a book. You know,
something that happened in your life, you know, I could. I agree,
we're right at our end of our break here, but I agree with
that. I think everyone has a story. We're ready to Yeah, we're
ready. Here, Here we go, yep in five four three two,
All right, welcome back. My guest tonight is Nick Redfern. This is
Martin Willis a podcast UFO, and we were talking about right before the break,
we were talking about extra terrestrial and communism, the threat of spreading communism,
which I think is fascinating. I can't believe that this was actually used
as a tool. I had never heard of this before. Is this is
this something? Where did you first catch wind of this? Because I just
never heard about this. Well over the years, I came across a few
stories and snippets here and there as to sort of, you know, how
the Russians were manipulating the UFO subject. Now, the reason why most people,
the general public, all of us. The main reason why we didn't
know was because it was being done very, very sort of deeply and secretly
behind the scenes, and so this sort of almost like a silent war was
going on between Russian intelligence and American intelligence, and the average person who might
have been interested in the UFO subject wouldn't have known of that aspect of it.
But I often used the Freedom Information Act of a number of nations and
managed to get hold of a lot of documentations showing there was deep concern even
in sort of the weeks and months after the Kenneth Arnold case in nineteen forty
seven, in June twenty four, nineteen forty seven, which was the case
more than any other, that really gave birth to the flying source of phenomenon.
Now, through the Freedom Information Act from the FBI, I got hold
of what of documentation where the FBI came to believe that at least some UFO
cases in the summer of forty seven when it all kicked off were actually not
Russian spies, but shall we say people who were sort of either communists or
were open to communism and were recruited by the Russians to spread fake UFO stories
and to also spread the rumors that these were craft created by the Russians and
that they were sort of far in advance of what we got, in other
words, like a secret weapon, so to speak. And the FBI actually
opened an entire file on these rumors, and they tried to track down who
these people were in the United States who were sort of working on behalf of
the Kremlin as a means to convince the US population that these strange thing that
everybody's seen in the sky are coming from the Soviet Union and they can outfly,
and you know, the technology is so advanced that here in the West
we'd have nothing to combat them. Now. The reason why this didn't become
sort of big news in terms of the media, but it did in US
intelligence is because the US took steps and very understandably steps as to why they
should keep this quiet because the last thing, you know, we just got
out the Second World War and the Russians were becoming potentially the next big enemies
or foes if you like, and so they tried all their you know,
their utmost to try and prevent the Russians from associating. In the mind's eye
of the US to stop them, prevent them from creating a connection between UFOs
and communism. But what I found again, using the Freedom Information Act,
I got hold of Georgia Dawski's FBI file. Now, Georgia Damski, for
people who may not know, he was one of the earliest so called contacts
of the nineteen fifties. Now, they were people who claimed to have had
very close encounters with extremely human looking aliens, usually typically in sort of desert
locations, like in the deserts of Arizona, New Mexico, California, and
so on. And these so called space brothers that the contact he's met,
they actually sort of spouted a lot of data, if you like, in
ideas and concepts that were very much communists in nature. Now, initially the
FBI released about seventy five to eighty pages of material surveillance files on Georgia Damski.
About three years ago, that figure got back to one hundred and fifty
pages by now today the FBI released about four hundred and fifty pages of surveillance
documents on Georgia Damski, and most of the contact teas were watched in that
period by the FBI. And I've got most of their FBI files now in
adamskis file. As I mentioned at the beginning of the show, his first
book, Flying Sources Have Landed, actually sold one hundred and twenty five thousand
books or thereabouts. Now, what happened was that Adamski was someone who,
again a lot of people don't know this, but he was someone who had
a big affinity for communism, and on his lecture circuits he would talk about
how the Russians were going to dominate the world and that he would only take
a small number of atomic bombs to place the US in the state of chaos.
And you can understand at the height of the early Cold War and the
reds under the beds, threats and everything's that kind of thing. You can
easily understand why the FBI opened a file on Georgia Damski. But what was
even more intriguing. One of the reasons why the file was opened was because
on several occasions Adamski was seen chatting at conferences and also in in bars and
restaurants in Los Angeles, actually talking with Russian people, apparently all about his
you know, his ability to sort of spread communism, but by doing it
through like a flying saucer aspect, and that really worried the FBI. I
mean, if you think about it, if Adamski's book only sold twenty five
books, you know, and you know, like on a Sunday afternoon he
put a lecture on and ten people would turn up, the FBI probably wouldn't
bother about that at all. But here's a guy, but here's a guy
saying Communism's great, and he's selling, you know, one hundred and twenty
five thousand copies of his book, and you know, his lectures were jammed,
they were packed with people. And so the FBI was concerned not so
much about the UFO angle, but they were more concerned about how the UFO
issue was being used to spread communism. And as I said, that doesn't
take away the fact that there is, in my mind, a genuine UFO
phenomenon, but that phenomenon in the early fifty was hijacked, if you like,
by the Russians to spread the word that, you know, aren't we
living in a great world and over in the US, you're living in a
terrible world. That was basically the heart of it. Isn't that something?
Now? Do you think that they they sort of corded the UFO field or
the contact he field or movement because they thought those people were more gullible and
more vulnerable to change. I mean, where do you think their reasoning was
as far as targeting, you know the I mean, did they as far
as your research goes. Was it any other type of paranormal situation as well,
or just the flying saucer. Now there actually were other ones, and
I'll talk about a couple of interesting ones, but just quickly, when you
mentioned you know about who gets targeted and why and so on. But the
interesting thing about Georgia Damski is that before he was actually targeted by either Russian
intelligence or by people in the United States who you know, were into communism
but were US citizens. They basically what happened was that they targeted first people
who the Russians did background checks on, people like Damski, and they basically
targeted those people first because they would be the most honorable. So a lot
of background on the part of the Russians went on to try and figure out
who can we use to best achieve this particular goal. But in terms of
other programs as well, which it's not a UFO program, but it does
involve sort of a paranormal phenomenon in the sky. And it relates again to
the Cold War in the early nineteen sixties when Fidel Castro came to power in
Cuba. Now, because you know, Cuba was so close to the US
and still is obviously, and and you know, there was concern about the
Russians having sort of you know, satellite bases and things like this on you
know, on Cuba itself. Now there's a guy or there was a guy
named Major Edward Lansdale, and he came up with some very weird plans and
projects as to how to try and destabilize the government of Fidel Castro. And
one of the ideas that Landsdale came up with, and I swear I'm not
making this up, but he had this plan where aircraft would be flown into
the clouds over Cuba and they would have these powerful microphones which would blast down
to the ground voices saying this is the basically saying, this is the voice
of Jesus. You need to you know, sort of overthrow Castro and embrace
the world of the West. And to try and achieve that. The other
part of the project was to try and project huge images of Jesus onto clouds,
and so you'd have the alleged voice of Jesus and you would have the
projection of Jesus projected onto the clouds as a means to sort of convince the
people of Cuba that a second coming was a was on the horizon and you
better come over to our side and you better do something about But El Castro,
now, the program was actually dropped because it was seen as just too
complicated and too technical to allow it to go ahead. But this plan to
sort of project not so much holograms but images onto the clouds and to blast
you know, that the so called voice of Jesus, that was the plan
and it was going to go ahead. But as I said, there were
so many ifs and butts, and in the end they dropped the program.
But that was sort of one of the really alternative programs, which as I
said, it wasn't a UFO program, but it did involve, you know,
like a supernatural image in the sky. And had it worked, I
mean, who knows what history would would it have changed? It? You
know? That's right? Well, so so interesting as far as as far
as when there the contact team movement here Was there anything at all like that
in Russia? Did they have any people that claim that they were contacteas over
there? Did you find any of that? Well, that's a good question,
and the answer to that question is actually no, There weren't really in
the forties and fifties, hardly anybody in the contact team movements in Russia at
that time that was really you know, sort of high profile or was being
manipulated by the intelligence services. It was primarily in the United States, the
UK, and Australia. Now one of the more intriguing cases involves a guy
named Orfeo Angel Lucci, and he was sort of like the second level of
the contact He's in the fifties when it all kicked off and we had the
flying source of phenomenon began in forty seven with Kenneth Arnold. Then it was
sort of round about fifty one when people started to claimed they'd seen these very
human looking aliens known as the Space Brothers. And without doubt, you know,
whether you believe his stories or not, Georgia Damski was sort of the
ultimate contact tea. But then you had sort of like the second level at
George van Tassel, and then you had Orpheo angel Lucci, excuse me and
various other ones now that the most interesting story is one of Orpheo angel Luci.
And he was someone who claimed to have had close encounters late at night
in Los Angeles in the early nineteen fifties. And again, the typical conversation
revolved around how we should get rid of our nuclear weapons and all live together,
otherwise the world's going to be destroyed and so on, and angel Lucci
was sort of quite inspired by these claimed encounters to go out there and sort
of spread the word as we all need to live together and the Russians aren't
so bad after all, and again, kind of like a Damski, he
got a very large following. What's particularly intriguing those that one by his own
admission, on one occasion in the nineteen fifties, angel Lucci was essentially drugged
by sort of like a mind altering drug in the early nineteen fifties, and
as he wrote it, as he wrote the story of himself, he was
interrogated by what he came to believe was somebody in US intelligence who wanted to
know who these people in Russian intelligence were that had approached him and who had
sort of pushed him to promote the communist angle in his lectures and in his
books. You know, they wanted him to talk about communism in his lectures,
they wanted to talk to write about communism in relation to aliens in his
books, and American intelligence wanted to know who it was that had hired him
to do this. Now, it turned out, but angel Lucci actually hadn't
been recruited, although American intelligence thought he had been, that he actually fought
against it. He was not a communist at all. But he didn't stop
the Russians from sort of clandestinely saying, ay, Orfio, you know,
you start talking about the communist side of why you know of the aliens and
so on. You know, we'll make it financially worth your time to do
so. And to his credit, you know, he backed away and said
not just no, but hell no. And an extensive file was opened on
him. But the FBI realized that he was really, you know, he
wasn't sort of a guilty person. He was someone caught up in this strange
scenario where the Russians had approached him and wanted him to promote communism from an
alien perspective. And so you know, it was a very odd period.
This is still sort of nineteen fifties, mid to late nineteen fifties, when
people like a. Damski and Angel Lucie were being closely watched by the FBI,
and equally they were a bit trying, you know, they're being pushed
by the Russians to try and influence the US public, the population into thinking
that, oh my god, you know, communism is the way of the
future and it's extraterrestrial. And today, looking back, it sounds really bizarre
and weird. But from the Russians perspective, the idea was that we really
can alter the mindset of the population, and the US intelligence were sort of
quite understandably trying to find a way to completely obliterate this particular program. And
the concern they had was that the UFO subject has a huge following, you
know, it always has. But back in the fifties, you know a
lot of those books they sold six figures, you know, regularly, And
so what we today might think, well, that's right, really weird,
you know, trying to make the other side thing that aliens are communists,
But back then it really was seen as like a viable tool if you like
to really scare the US and the UK and Australia into thinking that's you know,
yes, there's a real UFO phenomenon, but it's not on your side,
you know. And and it was really just all about sort of psychologically
playing with the mindset of the potential enemy, you know. Yeah, with
the amount I was just thinking of something kind of funny, with the amount
of times that we've been talking about the communism and communists today, and we're
using scape over phone and all that. The NSA is probably listening. Well,
hopefully I'm helping them to you know, demonstrate what's been going on,
you know. Yeah, yeah, you know, it's I do have to
say, spending as much time in Russia as I have, I did speak
to a number of people. Some people over there, there are some that
speak English that I was able to communicate. I don't know any Russian.
I can just barely get by. But anyway, I was surprised at how
many people I got into conversations and talked about communism that actually liked communism.
They I mean, it's such a bad word here. It's almost like,
you know, the word communists and communism makes people shake in their boots.
But these people that I spoke to over there said, hey, you know,
the food was better, and you know, they and you know we
weren't there, weren't people you know, starving and like they like there is
now and you know, so I'm sure there are good points, you know,
but obviously it's it's it doesn't work. It didn't work there anyway,
you know, it's still still on going in China. Yeah, And I
think, you know, we can learn a lot from sort of each other's
cultures. I mean, for example, you know, you can obviously tell
from my voice originally from England, you know, and you know, I
grew up in England as a kid and teenager and through my twenties before I
moved over here. But I mean, you know that the for example,
the British medical insurance, you know, is very different to over here.
And I often see in the US that people refer to the UK's medical service
as a socialized medicine or socialized insurance, and just that word socialize, you
know, put the you know, raises the hairs on the back of people
and it makes it sound like, you know, we're all a bunch of
sort of red flag wave in comices. You know it's not like that at
all. Yes, the yes, the you know, the medical insurance program
in the UK is very different to in the US, but you know it's
not socialized medicine, which sounds just like you know, something that crawled out
of the Kremlin. You know, it's not. And so you know,
there's we can all sort of learn, I think, from from each other.
Now. You know, I think, I mean, communism does not
work, you know, and I think you know, an enterprising um economy
and encouraging people, you know, to get out there and and and achieve
things in lives, you know, not just personally, but also economically as
well. I think that that that's a very good thing, you know.
Yeah. And then another thing that really grew was the black market. You
know, when there's communism, there was people still making money, but you
know, uh, not not in a legal way. And that that's that's
what There's a lot of things that grow out of that. You know.
In capitalism, you know, is not fault free either. You know,
we have the the the one percent of lead and all that, you know,
making more money than you know, see EO is making three hundred times
what a worker makes and actually works on the product. So there is a
lot of things that could be tweaked, that's for sure. You know.
Well, I'll tell you a funny story. I mentioned how you know I've
got several friends who are Russians. Well, I've also got several friends who
actually happen to be Russian strippers. They make a huge amount of money.
Yeah, they've they've embraced they've embraced capitalism with a capital C, you know.
Yeah, yeah, well, yeah, it's an interesting culture and money.
Money is very important. Money has and it's because lack of you know,
growing up in the atmosphere of lack of so money and material is very
important to the culture. I've seen that for sure. Yeah, and I
think what's important, you know, when it comes to this issue of sort
of Russian manipulation of the UFO subject, it's very easy to actually manipulation people.
Don't manipulate excuse me, people on a large scale. Um, you
know, it doesn't take long for the sort of the whole mindset to sort
of get in line when there's a threat or something. You know, and
it's kind of like, you know the issue of when you go to the
airport you take your shoes off, Well, you know, that was that
was revolved around, you know, one person who had that potential bombing issue,
which actually didn't work. And yet everybody goes to the airport and without
thinking takes their shoes off. In other words, you know, when something
happens, we subconsciously or unconsciously get in line with it, you know.
And that's a perfect example of it. And I think that's what the Russians
were hoping for. They were hoping for an assumption that would become accepted that
you know that the Aliens are here, and you know they're on the side
of the Russians, And that's why you had things like the CIA's Robertson Panel,
which was created in the fifties to actually try and prevent that scenario from
occurring. That the Robertson panel was this excuse me, this panel created in
late fifties, but which really came to the four in nineteen fifty three,
and the CI realized that if they didn't sort of intervene, that more and
more of these bogus stories about you know, extraterrestrial communists and so on,
they didn't stop it, that more and more people would buy into the hysteria.
But without thinking about it kind of again, like you know, when
you go to the airport, you just take your shoes off without thinking.
And so the CIA came up with all sorts of pluts as a means to
try and destabilize the Russians UFO program. And I talk about that in the
book where US Intelligence created fake stories that have crashed UFOs. They basically created
fake stories saying that US intelligence had got crashed UFO materials and debris and alien
technology, and they subtly ceeded that story into Russian intelligence to make it look
like it had been stolen, you know, the dates had been stolen from
the US. And in reality, you know, the US intelligence actually created
these stories to try and frighten the Kremlin, you know, the Russian premiers
and so on, to try and convince them that, you know, us,
the US government had got alien technology, highly advanced technology, and so
you know, the plan was to try and frighten the Russians into thinking,
you know, we'd got highly advanced weaponry that they hadn't got. So it
became almost like a really weird game almost, you know, between the two
to try and you know, who could who could sort of best the other,
you know, isn't that something. So we are going into break here
in about one minute or so. So do you think that there's any UFO
stories that either side, either Russian or American, are out there that can
be debunked as a you know, one of these cases where you know they
were trying to influence something that is standing that you're aware of. People call
it like a UFO incident that never was. Yeah, I mean a perfect
example is an alleged UFO crash in the island of spitzberg And just off the
coast of Norway in the early nineteen fifties. And it's sort of like,
I guess it's like Norway's version of Roswell. You know, it's a story
of a crashed UFO. Now, if you go to the National Security Agency,
the NSA's websites and go to their UFO section, and they put some
of their files on UFOs on their websites, there's actually a section about this
crashed UFOs story. Now, somebody at the NSA has circled the section on
the Spitzbergen case and in big capital letters they've written the word plant. Now
at that point, I talk about this in the book, and I point
out that we could be looking at the NSA having created and fabricated this Spitzberg
and story of a crashed UFO, or the NSA found out it was a
Russian plants. We just don't know which is the truth. But we've got
the documents showing that the NSA were clear on the fact that this Spitzberg and
crashed UFO story of the early fifties was a plant. Now, this was
clearly either created by US intelligence to think the Russians, you know, make
the Russians think that we got highly advanced staium technology, or it was the
other way around. But that story, to get back to your question,
that story that the Spitzberg and UFO case is still sort of champion to this
day, seventy years almost after it allegedly occurs, and a lot of people
uphology still believe that is a legitimate case. Now, maybe it is,
but when you say official documents referring to it as a plans, then you
actually have to wonder, you know, was this a Russian program or was
it an American response to the Russian program? Fascinating? Okay, we're going
into the break. This is Martin Willis with Podcast UFO. My guest is
Nick Redfern and we'll be right back in just a couple of minutes. All
right, that's it for the free part of the show. Thank you so
much for listening. We'll be back next week with Diana Pulsilka and she wrote
the book called American Cosmic UFO's Religion in Technology. She'll be a great guest,
I'm sure of it. I've heard a lot of good things about her.
Also, I want to thank you for listening to the show. The
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