1 00:00:08,519 --> 00:00:12,199 Hello, and welcome to the show. I am Martin Willis Shure, host 2 00:00:12,519 --> 00:00:15,839 and we have a great show. One of my favorites is on tonight Nick 3 00:00:15,919 --> 00:00:19,920 Redfern, and I'm the very first interview with him about his new book. 4 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:23,519 I'm always excited to do that with Nick because he has so many great books 5 00:00:24,039 --> 00:00:28,960 out there. This The title to this book is Flying Saucers from the Kremlin 6 00:00:29,879 --> 00:00:36,280 UFOs Russian medaling, Soviet spies and Cold War secrets. And a lot of 7 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:40,320 people that listen to the show know that I have a little bit of an 8 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:44,320 affinity for Russia. I know Russia has been in the bad news in a 9 00:00:44,359 --> 00:00:48,520 bad way in the news often, but I have gone there many times. 10 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:54,399 It's an interesting culture. I've tried to research UFO zero talk to Nick a 11 00:00:54,439 --> 00:00:57,600 little bit about that. I want to thank everyone that helps out with the 12 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:02,000 show. Anyone can do that. You go over to podcast UFO dot com. 13 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:06,879 That information is there. Our blog this week is by Charles lear Is, 14 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:11,640 a UFOs and school children. He discusses not only like the Ariel school 15 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:15,079 incident, which many times we talk about here, but all other cases that 16 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:19,920 are known with school children. There's quite a few cases and it's really fascinating. 17 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:25,200 So check that out over at podcast UFO dot com. And I think 18 00:01:25,359 --> 00:01:30,400 that may be enough for right now. Alejandro, how are you, Yes, 19 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:33,200 sir, I'm doing well. How are you, my friend? Good? 20 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:37,200 Good, Welcome to the show. And so lots cooking, as we 21 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:40,879 talk about every week lately, lots going on in the UFO world. And 22 00:01:41,079 --> 00:01:45,519 I don't know what you want to tackle first, but yeah, I guess 23 00:01:45,519 --> 00:01:49,599 i'll go down the list. At the beginning of the list that you'll find 24 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:55,040 of the UFO headlines at open mind dot tv is a great story from Tyler 25 00:01:55,159 --> 00:02:00,319 rogue Away. So we've both talked to him and we've talked about him because 26 00:02:00,439 --> 00:02:02,879 he is a defense writer in the mainstream. He writes for a site called 27 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:07,919 the war Zone, and he's been writing about aerospace and aerospace technology for his 28 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:12,560 entire life, and so that's why it's important for him to start writing about 29 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:15,639 UFOs and getting involved in all of this. And people have been frustrated because 30 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:19,639 he's been doing both. He's been talking about, you know, maybe this 31 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:23,280 is some secret tech that these navy pilots have been seeing. And he's also, 32 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:28,919 however, been kind of talking with pilots and putting together the facts, 33 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:31,680 so you can kind of see his mindset, how are we struggling with what 34 00:02:31,719 --> 00:02:36,280 the heck could this be? It doesn't seem to be our tech? But 35 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:39,039 is it? And he does a great job of making the point if it 36 00:02:39,159 --> 00:02:46,000 is our tech, the maneuvers and what they describe these things doing is absolutely 37 00:02:46,039 --> 00:02:51,159 phenomenal. So I think the more significant story he's had lately. He's had 38 00:02:51,159 --> 00:02:53,919 two in the last week. One of them was, well, maybe they 39 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:59,879 are seeing these airborne radar reflectors. You know, certainly that when they count 40 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:04,319 all of the sightings that the Navy's having, especially the tic TACs. However, 41 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:07,879 he also got ahold of one of these pilots that was just on this 42 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:14,719 latest episode of Unidentified. These pilots who were a part of the Roosevelts Group 43 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:20,680 and twenty fifteen the Roosevelt Strike Force, which is essentially the aircraft carrier. 44 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:23,560 They were off the post coast of Florida and they saw these objects that seemed 45 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:30,319 to follow them to Iran, and they saw this cube shaped object inside of 46 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:35,319 a clear sphere. He asked, you know, other pilots, is this 47 00:03:35,479 --> 00:03:38,560 common? You know? Is this something that others are seeing? And his 48 00:03:38,759 --> 00:03:46,599 story was and the headline is recent UFO encounters with Navy pilots occurred constantly across 49 00:03:46,759 --> 00:03:50,919 multiple squadrons. So he found out there's a lot more pilots than just this 50 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:54,080 one small group that is reporting this sort of thing when they are across multiple 51 00:03:54,159 --> 00:04:00,080 squadrons, so that this UFO phenomena is affecting, you know, more pilots 52 00:04:00,199 --> 00:04:04,599 than just the what have we heard maybe four pilots so far, four or 53 00:04:04,599 --> 00:04:09,840 five on the unidentified television show. So I think we're going to hear a 54 00:04:09,879 --> 00:04:13,879 lot more about that, especially now that the Navy has changed their rules to 55 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:17,879 be kind of more pro UFOs, to be more open to having their pilots 56 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:23,079 report UFO siting. So that's pretty exciting. I think that's some really good 57 00:04:23,079 --> 00:04:26,399 work that he does there. Yeah, Yeah, I always like reading Tyler's 58 00:04:26,439 --> 00:04:30,480 work. That's good stuff. Yeah, I mean, I think it's really 59 00:04:30,519 --> 00:04:34,439 important to also see the process that mainstream journalism goes through, especially someone like 60 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:40,079 Tyler who's open to the idea that there is something going on here that these 61 00:04:40,079 --> 00:04:46,360 pilots are you know, accurately describing what they're encountering and if they are, 62 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:49,199 which he makes a point that you know, it's they've got to be then 63 00:04:49,319 --> 00:04:54,000 what the heck is this? And you see that struggle that they're going through. 64 00:04:54,439 --> 00:04:59,160 Yeah, so that's really interesting. You know, both you and I 65 00:04:59,199 --> 00:05:02,839 have also talked to Calvin Parker and this is pretty cool too. Calvin Parker 66 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:06,560 was part of the Pascagoula incident, which happened in the seventies, you know, 67 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:13,759 where he and his buddy Charles Hickson had encountered these strange creatures. Now 68 00:05:13,759 --> 00:05:16,560 he's going to be speaking at the UFO Congress. However, there has been 69 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:24,759 some really pretty neat news. They Mississippi officials have commemorated his account. There's 70 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:29,800 an NPR radio interview that you can listen to that we have a link to 71 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:33,199 here. But yeah, kind of like Tom Reid, he's had some actual 72 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:40,240 issues with this historical marker that commemorates his incident. But in New Hampshire, 73 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:45,759 Betty and Barning Hills, they their incident has been commemorated by a state marker, 74 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:48,959 and now the Pascagoula case. So that's another important thing where kind of 75 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:55,879 these historical societies across the country are open to, you know, at least 76 00:05:55,959 --> 00:06:00,279 making this historical markers to mark these events or at least the occurrence of these 77 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:04,680 large cultural events, even if they're UFO or alien related. And I think 78 00:06:04,759 --> 00:06:09,480 you will agree that Calvin Parker comes Across is very credible. This is one 79 00:06:09,519 --> 00:06:14,600 of the more credible cases out there. Absolutely, and to think that he 80 00:06:14,759 --> 00:06:18,319 was I have to give credit to Michael Loke who wrote the blog for me 81 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:24,279 years ago. And basically Calvin came out of many years of staying away and 82 00:06:24,399 --> 00:06:30,879 out of interviews and he actually reached out to me initially several years ago after 83 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:35,360 he read the blog, which is awesome because now he is he said, 84 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:38,319 he's only going to be doing this for about a year or so, but 85 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:43,279 he's really in the limelight. And I think his timing was perfect for actually 86 00:06:43,519 --> 00:06:48,759 writing this book with phil Philip Mantel. I got those two together and that 87 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:53,920 was a big success. And he's going around the world and stuff. He's 88 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:58,120 in the WorldWind because people are taking him seriously, and I think that's because 89 00:06:58,199 --> 00:07:01,879 things have changed in the UFO field. They're not just passing it off as 90 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:06,079 you know, a crazy guy, and he is. It is a very 91 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:10,879 credible, credible case, good one. I agree. I agree, Yeah, 92 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:13,319 there's a very credible case, and they said that, and I'm not 93 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:15,120 sure if this is the case, and as far as I know, it 94 00:07:15,199 --> 00:07:17,920 still is. It's after the Congress, After the UFO Congress, he's not 95 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:21,000 going to be doing talks or anything anymore. He's going back to fishing. 96 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:27,600 That's what he says. Yeah, we'll see full time fishing. Yep, 97 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:30,639 yep. That's even part of his email out there in Mississippi. Yeah, 98 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:34,439 but yeah, lots of other stories, of course, related to the Navy 99 00:07:35,279 --> 00:07:40,720 talking about UFOs, Congress talking about UFOs, and the last week we've heard 100 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:45,519 from a senator, Senator Warren who's part of the Intelligence Committee, him talking 101 00:07:45,519 --> 00:07:48,439 about being briefed on UFOs and then why he thinks that this is serious and 102 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:54,160 it needs to be taken seriously. And then of course the President has had 103 00:07:54,279 --> 00:07:58,199 a little bit of a mention on ABC about all of this, which has 104 00:07:58,279 --> 00:08:01,439 also kind of created this media river which is all still going on. So 105 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:07,040 we have a lot of talk about UFOs and even some sightings of loon balloons 106 00:08:07,279 --> 00:08:15,920 oh yeah that have sponsor UFO UFO sighting reports. But you know, as 107 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:20,160 the public gets more interested in this topic, they're also going to be more 108 00:08:20,199 --> 00:08:26,759 interested in these cases that or these objects that often create these UFO reports that 109 00:08:26,839 --> 00:08:30,839 aren't UFOs. But that's going to happen. But still we all get educated. 110 00:08:30,879 --> 00:08:33,600 And this doesn't account certainly for all of the Navy accounts or other serious 111 00:08:33,639 --> 00:08:39,559 accounts that we've heard across the along the way over the years. So it's 112 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:43,919 an exciting time. All eyes are on what we do and that's a lot 113 00:08:43,919 --> 00:08:48,240 of fun. Yeah. Hey, our good friend Lee Spiegel contacted me, 114 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:54,360 I think it was yesterday and about this spike of methane on Mars. Have 115 00:08:54,399 --> 00:08:58,960 you read anything about that? Well, it's not necessarily Yeah, they've they've 116 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:05,799 they see methane on Mars, and the latest rover is designed to detect methane 117 00:09:05,799 --> 00:09:11,399 on Mars, and it's in a location where there is a lot of methane. 118 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:16,639 That is exciting in that it could indicate life. But you know, 119 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:20,360 I think that there's a lot of news in the astrobiological world as well. 120 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:26,840 There are other indications of potential life and other areas. So I mean, 121 00:09:26,879 --> 00:09:31,440 it's certainly an area to keep an eye on, but it just it may 122 00:09:31,519 --> 00:09:37,519 indicate life, it's not anything definitive. There are other processes that create methane 123 00:09:37,639 --> 00:09:41,000 gas, but at least this is one of the kind of hallmarks that they're 124 00:09:41,039 --> 00:09:46,840 looking for. They were looking to see at what concentrations methane exists, and 125 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:52,559 they see it in very low concentrations. What that means to them is too 126 00:09:52,799 --> 00:09:56,559 that there's a necessity to keep looking for potential for life. But they also 127 00:09:56,600 --> 00:10:03,879 make the point that this could be leftover methane from methane that was from life 128 00:10:03,879 --> 00:10:11,080 before. However, methane does get dissolved by solar rays, so it can't 129 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:13,759 have been that long ago. But these are all the factors that they, 130 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:16,679 you know, things that they think about. They can figure out how long 131 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:22,720 would methane last on a planet, you know, given the deterioration of methane, 132 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:26,600 and these are some of the things that they're considering and looking at right 133 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:31,000 now. And methane is another sign that there could be life on Mars today. 134 00:10:31,759 --> 00:10:35,799 Just like we have microbes in our soil and in our rocks, that 135 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:39,360 could be the case in Mars. And you have also a headline on your 136 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:46,120 website about that life could have existed much earlier on Mars than on the Earth, 137 00:10:46,159 --> 00:10:48,840 which is pretty interesting as well. That's another yeah, that's another new 138 00:10:48,919 --> 00:10:54,159 discovery that they're looking at is did have Mars have life a long time ago? 139 00:10:54,240 --> 00:11:00,399 We know now and this used to be kind of this used to be 140 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:03,879 strange to think that Mars had water or has water. We do know there 141 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:09,480 is water there. I think now that they suspect there's liquid water there. 142 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:13,639 The surface of Mars is not conducive to liquid water, but it could be 143 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:18,759 if water is seeping out from the ground, and there syndication there could be 144 00:11:18,919 --> 00:11:22,639 liquid water underground, of course, as important to life as we know it, 145 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:28,200 and they're looking at the possibility because you do see that the surface of 146 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:33,559 Mars was manipulated by water, by massive amounts of water, and you know, 147 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:37,159 as much as ten years, maybe even a little longer than that. 148 00:11:37,159 --> 00:11:39,679 That was kind of a crazy idea that Mars once had water. Now it's 149 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:43,080 a given that Mars had lots of water like we do, rivers and streams 150 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:48,480 and lakes and possibly oceans, and so that maybe they had an abundance of 151 00:11:48,519 --> 00:11:52,840 life in the past and it's just gone now that the atmosphere is left and 152 00:11:52,919 --> 00:11:56,879 the conditions have changed, right, magnetosphere gone and everything evaporate. I'm glad 153 00:11:56,879 --> 00:12:01,759 we're talking about Mars with a hat you're wearing. It worked perfectly. Yeah, 154 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:03,240 perfect time. And I didn't even know you were going to go there. 155 00:12:03,279 --> 00:12:07,879 But this is from my Mars television shirt series and I got that from 156 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:11,120 nat Geo and you guys should check that out. It's online streaming. But 157 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:16,559 a great show where it considers a lot of these ideas, the science behind 158 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:20,799 that and behind us going to Mars. In fact, Brian Bender from Politico, 159 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:24,360 who writes a lot about you know, space and these sort of things 160 00:12:24,399 --> 00:12:30,440 and UFOs lately he's in the show Unidentified. He predicted today on Twitter that 161 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:35,559 we won't get to Mars till twenty forty. Why this show covers a lot 162 00:12:35,639 --> 00:12:39,639 of it. There are a lot of considerations. So just because Elon Musk 163 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:43,159 might be able to get us there in the next ten years doesn't mean we're 164 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:46,399 ready, nor does it mean that humans can survive. There's a lot of 165 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:50,960 stress on the human body. There's a lot we have to figure out still 166 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:56,399 that we haven't radiation shielding all of these sort of things, and we really 167 00:12:56,840 --> 00:13:01,000 haven't moved very far. So we've moved more further on the propulsion then we 168 00:13:01,039 --> 00:13:05,240 have on the actual habitation area, and that's probably what's going to stall us 169 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:09,720 getting humans to Mars, even though we may have a lot more as far 170 00:13:09,759 --> 00:13:13,000 as probes and maybe even humans orbiting Mars in the next ten years or so, 171 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:16,679 to actually stay there for a period of time, it's going to be 172 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:20,759 a little more difficult. Yeah, there's so many hazards. It's it's a 173 00:13:20,279 --> 00:13:24,759 it's most likely a one way trip is the best we could do with this, 174 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:28,720 you know, even in ten years from now. Probably. Yeah, 175 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,559 so, I mean Bender predicts even when we get there, if if that 176 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:35,799 is indeed twenty forty ish, that it'll be a one way trip and possibly 177 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:39,159 even a suicide mission. Yeah. Yeah, there's so many hazards, like 178 00:13:39,159 --> 00:13:43,360 you say, and it's what fun it will be to live underground, right, 179 00:13:43,759 --> 00:13:48,720 Yeah, well that would be one potential actually. Bob Bigelow, a 180 00:13:48,759 --> 00:13:54,639 Bigelow Aerospace just announced in the last week also a different system where essentially you 181 00:13:54,720 --> 00:14:01,639 take these fabric shoots almost like these straws that are put together, and you 182 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:05,279 fill them with rigolet. And this is in the case of the Moon. 183 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:09,879 Essentially you sent you fill them with the material you find on the surface of 184 00:14:09,879 --> 00:14:15,879 the Moon, and then you drape those over your habitats and that protects you 185 00:14:15,919 --> 00:14:18,679 from radiation. So it's kind of a novel idea. And to live on 186 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:22,399 the surface, yeah, because that's the main concern. Living underground is one 187 00:14:22,519 --> 00:14:28,360 way to avoid the radiation. But this is another way that could also be 188 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:35,320 cost effective, fairly simple to do, and another, you know, realistic 189 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:39,600 way that we could avoid the radiation. Excellent. All right, Well, 190 00:14:39,639 --> 00:14:43,200 hey, thanks so much. Yep, thank you all right, and we'll 191 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:46,279 be talking to you again next week. As always, I appreciate you. 192 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:48,879 All right, have a great show, you bet all right? Take care 193 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:54,720 all right, everyone, So we are ready to roll with Nick Redfern. 194 00:14:54,799 --> 00:14:56,919 He's been on the show many times. Like I said in the beginning, 195 00:14:56,919 --> 00:15:01,360 he's one of the favorites here. And this time he is going to be 196 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:07,039 talking about his book called Flying Sources from the Kremlin, UFOs, Russia, 197 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:11,759 meddling, Soviet spies and Cold War Secrets. He's a full time author. 198 00:15:11,919 --> 00:15:16,039 I can't believe the amount of books this gentleman writes. He's always fun to 199 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:18,240 talk to. Welcome to the show, Nick, Hey, i's you going, 200 00:15:18,879 --> 00:15:22,200 it's going great? Good, Good to have you back again. Oh 201 00:15:22,279 --> 00:15:26,320 thanks, yes, So Nick, we don't have to go. Because you've 202 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:30,120 been on this show a number of times, we don't have to go into 203 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:33,720 your background like we often do in the beginning of these shows here, but 204 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:37,519 if you would, why don't you tell us the genesis of this book? 205 00:15:37,559 --> 00:15:41,480 What made you decide to write it? Well, you know, when whenever 206 00:15:41,519 --> 00:15:45,519 I'm writes in a new book, I always try and find, you know, 207 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:48,679 something that's new. You don't want to just go overall ground and race 208 00:15:48,799 --> 00:15:54,039 cycle stuff. It's just pointless, you know. And there are so many 209 00:15:54,039 --> 00:16:00,159 different aspects to the UFO phenomenon that you know, you can go in any 210 00:16:00,159 --> 00:16:04,320 different directions. Now, just to sort of one of the things I talk 211 00:16:04,399 --> 00:16:10,279 about in the in the introduction of the book is how the theme of the 212 00:16:10,279 --> 00:16:14,200 book is how the Russians the height of the Cold War, throughout the Cold 213 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:21,679 War, fabricated and created bogus UFO cases as a means to sort of psychologically 214 00:16:23,759 --> 00:16:30,360 sort of I'll try or if trying to alter the mind the state of mind 215 00:16:30,399 --> 00:16:33,799 of the US public and the military. And it's sort of very bizarre set 216 00:16:33,799 --> 00:16:40,559 of situations. Now, I should sort of state first that before we get 217 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:45,720 to the issue of the Russians creating fabricated UFO cases. There's absolutely no doubt 218 00:16:45,759 --> 00:16:51,720 in my mind that there is a genuine UFO phenomenon. Now I'm quite open 219 00:16:51,799 --> 00:16:57,080 as to whether it's sextual terrestrial, or if it's sort of interdimensional, multidimensional. 220 00:16:57,279 --> 00:17:00,960 I don't know, you know, I'm honest enough to to admit I 221 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:04,640 don't know what the phenomenon is, or where it's from and what its origins 222 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:10,440 are. But I do believe there is a genuine UFO phenomenon which has nothing 223 00:17:10,599 --> 00:17:15,839 to do with military experiments and things like that, even though that's a part 224 00:17:15,839 --> 00:17:19,200 of it. You know, there is a genuine UFO phenomenon. But what 225 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:25,200 was particularly intriguing and which a lot of people have overlooked, is the fact, 226 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:29,680 excuse me, is the fact that although there's a real phenomenon, that 227 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:34,519 same real phenomenon, at the height of the Cold War was sort of manipulated 228 00:17:34,519 --> 00:17:42,319 by Soviet intelligence as a means to create fake stories of UFOs, bogus tales 229 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:48,319 of alien abductions and crashed UFOs as a means to try and convince the United 230 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:53,880 States that the aliens were communists. Now, as strange and as bizarre as 231 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:59,680 that might sound, I actually managed to get a number of documents that actually 232 00:18:00,039 --> 00:18:07,440 confirm that the US intelligence was deeply worried. But if enough people read enough 233 00:18:07,599 --> 00:18:11,240 UFO books, like, for example, Georgia Damski's first book wrote in its 234 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:18,359 first Prince sold one hundred and twenty five thousand copies, and Adamski himself was 235 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:22,799 a supporter of communism. A lot of people don't know that, and so 236 00:18:22,839 --> 00:18:27,599 there was deep concerned that, you know, this guy with communist leanings was 237 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:33,720 selling books about Aliens who were communists as well in the figures of one hundred 238 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:38,759 and twenty five thousand, and the Russians portrays sort of followed this angle more 239 00:18:38,799 --> 00:18:45,160 and more as a means to try and from their perspective, destabilize the US 240 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:51,279 and have us think communism is actually quite a good thing. And so that's 241 00:18:51,319 --> 00:18:53,119 basically the theme of the book, you know, as a point out of 242 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:59,799 a full unbeliever in the phenomenon, but it's a phenomenon which intelligence agencies around 243 00:18:59,839 --> 00:19:04,839 the world have used and manipulated as a means to achieve a very different goal 244 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:11,039 in many respects. So is this more of like a Cold War thing that 245 00:19:11,599 --> 00:19:15,759 you're talking about, because you know, you think about the first the modern 246 00:19:15,839 --> 00:19:19,440 day, UFOs are nineteen forty seven and after, you know, post nineteen 247 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:26,599 forty seven. So it's all mostly the Cold War situation, well most of 248 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:27,880 it is, but it does go right to the present day. I mean 249 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:33,839 the title's flying sources from the Kremlin, and that the subtitle will give you 250 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:38,519 sort of an idea of the theme. It's UFOs Russian meddling, Soviet spies 251 00:19:38,599 --> 00:19:42,559 and Cold War secrets. So a lot of it does cover the Cold War, 252 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:48,200 but in saying that, it does actually take the subject right to the 253 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:52,680 present day and demonstrates that at least as late as twenty eighteen that this research 254 00:19:53,279 --> 00:19:59,359 was still being done by the Russians as a means to again manipulate the West. 255 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:02,640 Now, one of the things I should stress is that, I mean, 256 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:06,359 whoever's doing this, or the people who are doing this, primarily it's 257 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:11,000 Russian intelligence, you know. I think one of the things that you know, 258 00:20:11,079 --> 00:20:15,240 a lot of people don't necessarily appreciate is that, for the most part, 259 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:19,720 you know, the people in the relevant countries, whether we're entirely friendly 260 00:20:19,799 --> 00:20:23,880 with them or not, they're just like us. They're normal, regular people, 261 00:20:25,319 --> 00:20:27,200 you know. But all of us, the regular normal people, are 262 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:33,440 just caught up in this sort of mess of governments, you know, sort 263 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:37,240 of going head to head. You know. Actually, ironically, I have 264 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:41,319 several Russian friends here in the in the Russian area, and you know that 265 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:45,519 they're just like us. And of course that might send a stupid thing to 266 00:20:45,519 --> 00:20:48,200 say that. Some people think, well, they're not you know, because 267 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:51,000 they're Russians, but they are. You know, they like to go on 268 00:20:51,039 --> 00:20:52,880 a Friday night and have a couple of beers and hang out and have a 269 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:59,279 good time. But what it comes down to is that we're not the ones 270 00:20:59,319 --> 00:21:03,640 who dictate in the situation. And that goes for the same for the people 271 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:07,680 in any nation. You know, the Russian people and no different to us. 272 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:11,920 They're not demons. They don't want to destroy us. People in the 273 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:15,960 government may want to destroy us, but they don't, you know, like 274 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:18,480 us. They just want to be able to have a good life and not 275 00:21:18,559 --> 00:21:23,319 have to worry about mushroom clouds and radiation, you know, right, And 276 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:26,559 like you mentioned, um, you know you have some friends, of course 277 00:21:26,599 --> 00:21:33,400 I've I've been my girlfriend of many years is Russian, and uh, there's 278 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:34,839 a lot of a lot of them want to come here, you know, 279 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:38,319 because it's that they feel it's a better life here than than over there. 280 00:21:38,319 --> 00:21:44,160 And after spending you know, an equivalent of I think about the couple couple 281 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:48,440 of months over there, I can see why it is much nicer here. 282 00:21:49,279 --> 00:21:55,920 I like being here. And my dad went to Russia about thirty something years 283 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:57,799 ago on vacation and I had a great time, you know, went to 284 00:21:57,839 --> 00:22:03,799 the Kremlin, Saint Petersburg and Moscow and all over the place. It had 285 00:22:03,799 --> 00:22:07,880 a really good time. And and and you know, took a bunch of 286 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:11,400 photographs and it was far more sort of severe then, you know, as 287 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:15,839 it was as it is today. But you know, but I think, 288 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:19,000 I think what all this kind of demonstrates is that you know, whether you're 289 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:22,880 born in Russia or you born in China or you're born wherever, you know, 290 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:27,640 we are really the pawns. And and we can actually all sort of 291 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:32,240 resonate with each other and hang out. Rather we could talk to each other, 292 00:22:32,279 --> 00:22:36,759 you know, with respective languages. Um. But it's it really is, 293 00:22:37,039 --> 00:22:41,640 you know, the governments that that screw everything up. Yeah, because 294 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:45,720 you know, the like I said, I mean that the Russian people are 295 00:22:45,799 --> 00:22:48,799 no different to us the Chinese. You know, it's it's it's the people 296 00:22:48,799 --> 00:22:55,160 who quite pull the strings to sort of deep end up demonizing everything, you 297 00:22:55,279 --> 00:22:57,359 know. Yeah, yeah, we have to go to breaking about one minute 298 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:03,559 or so here, so and I want to get into you know, specifics, 299 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:08,039 but keeping the one minute in check right here? Do you want to 300 00:23:08,839 --> 00:23:11,680 you want to start out by like, what do you talk about at the 301 00:23:11,759 --> 00:23:15,200 very beginning of the book, how do you get well, yeah, sure, 302 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:21,160 well the book basically starts with US intelligence when the whole Flying Source of 303 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:25,519 phenomenon began in the summer of forty seven. They started to look into these 304 00:23:25,559 --> 00:23:32,920 cases and got significant rumors from the intelligence people that the Russians were working on 305 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:37,680 this is like written really, this is just almost post Kenneth Arnold. We're 306 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:42,680 trying to find ways to use this real phenomenon and spread stories that yes, 307 00:23:44,039 --> 00:23:48,599 the phenomenon's extraterrestrial. Oh and by the way, their communists, you know. 308 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:52,480 So that's that was what really fired up US intelligence to just sort of 309 00:23:52,519 --> 00:23:56,759 hit back psychologically, you know, when they heard that the Russians were trying 310 00:23:56,799 --> 00:24:04,200 to convince the US people that's you know, the phenomenon was communist in nature, 311 00:24:04,279 --> 00:24:08,119 and wouldn't it be great to be a communist you know how about that? 312 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:11,160 Wow? Okay, So we're going to head to break, all right, 313 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:15,799 everyone. My guest tonight is Nick Redfern and we will be right back 314 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:26,000 right after these messages hanging there and we're clear Martin, And we've got three 315 00:24:26,039 --> 00:24:29,880 and a half minutes in this break. Okay, set the timer, thank 316 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:33,480 you, all right, Nick, so um during the break here, we've 317 00:24:33,559 --> 00:24:36,519 got three and a half minutes, and so just keep that in mind. 318 00:24:36,559 --> 00:24:41,279 I wanted to ask you how many what number of book is this of yours? 319 00:24:41,079 --> 00:24:47,160 Anyway? Actually I have to think about it myself, but it's about 320 00:24:47,559 --> 00:24:52,240 it's fifty three, It's something like that. So that's amazing. They're abouts 321 00:24:52,319 --> 00:24:57,279 it's a mid fifties. Yeah. And no one that I know or have 322 00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:03,160 no author I've ever spoke two in the past. Has your discipline And for 323 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:07,720 the person, for the person that is unaware of how you write your books, 324 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:12,319 can you just tell them you treat it like a job. I treated 325 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,319 by as a job in the sense that I, you know, I am 326 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:21,440 kind of sort of driven in in the way I work. But I wouldn't 327 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:23,279 want people to think it's just a job. You know, it is, 328 00:25:23,319 --> 00:25:26,559 and it's a passion and oh, of course I didn't mean it. Yeah, 329 00:25:26,599 --> 00:25:30,680 yeah, it's like a passion. It's exciting and it's fun to do 330 00:25:30,759 --> 00:25:33,720 it, and you know, and uncovering information. So as long as you 331 00:25:33,759 --> 00:25:38,559 know, as long as I've got that energy and that sort of fascination and 332 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:44,000 excitement for it, I'll keep doing it. But in terms of sort of 333 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,839 you know, how I structure the research and the writing, you know, 334 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:52,680 I like to do nine to five Monday to Friday, and then I've got 335 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:56,319 weekends off. I've got evenings off, and never work evenings, never work 336 00:25:56,480 --> 00:26:00,599 weekends. Laptop shuts down at four o'clock on Friday after noon, I don't 337 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:04,920 touch it till nine o'clock Monday morning, and amazing Monday. But when Monday 338 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:10,720 comes around Monday morning, I do work nine to five Monday to Friday, 339 00:26:10,799 --> 00:26:12,720 you know, and as you can get a lot done. I'm sure, 340 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:18,079 really, I'm sure. You know. As an I don't really consider myself 341 00:26:18,079 --> 00:26:22,640 an artist. I'll say I'm a painter. So but if I'm really into 342 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,839 a painting, I can't put that down. How do you like, if 343 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:30,160 you're really on a roll, how do you stop at four o'clock or whatever? 344 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,279 It is that's actually a good question. What I tend to do, 345 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:37,079 you know, if you've got sort of six or seven things swirling around your 346 00:26:37,079 --> 00:26:42,599 mind for that particular chapter, and you know you it's time to finish, 347 00:26:42,839 --> 00:26:47,000 what I genuinely do is to sort of get, you know, shoe to 348 00:26:47,079 --> 00:26:52,440 paper and jot down what those five or six really cool extra things I need 349 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:56,680 to do to make the chapter really good. So I'll sort of make like 350 00:26:56,759 --> 00:27:00,480 bullet points, and then next morning I'm still those bullet points in front of 351 00:27:00,519 --> 00:27:03,559 me and in front of and in my head as well, you know, 352 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,799 so I can pick up straight away. I don't feel, you know, 353 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:12,240 that I've got to keep going because I'm on a on a roll, you 354 00:27:12,279 --> 00:27:17,960 know, I wake up on a role. So well, I guess I 355 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:19,599 guess that, you know, I guess I would say that I have more 356 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:23,440 of an obsessive nature in uh, you know, like when I get into 357 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:27,680 something, I really like to get through it. And so I can't do 358 00:27:27,759 --> 00:27:32,839 what you do in your work, but I really I really admire it, 359 00:27:32,839 --> 00:27:37,640 and I know it's obviously it works very well well. I think, thank 360 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,319 you. Well, I think, you know, I think any kind of 361 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:45,480 work in the art, you know, whether it's poetry, painting, um, 362 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,680 you know, photography, music, whatever. I think. You know, 363 00:27:49,079 --> 00:27:55,000 everybody, um, you know has their own angle, you know. 364 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:59,119 And I always have to say to people, anybody and everybody has at least 365 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:02,119 one story in them that can be turned into a book. You know, 366 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:04,359 something that happened in your life, you know, I could. I agree, 367 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,519 we're right at our end of our break here, but I agree with 368 00:28:07,559 --> 00:28:11,319 that. I think everyone has a story. We're ready to Yeah, we're 369 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:15,440 ready. Here, Here we go, yep in five four three two, 370 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:21,440 All right, welcome back. My guest tonight is Nick Redfern. This is 371 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:27,480 Martin Willis a podcast UFO, and we were talking about right before the break, 372 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:33,960 we were talking about extra terrestrial and communism, the threat of spreading communism, 373 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:38,039 which I think is fascinating. I can't believe that this was actually used 374 00:28:38,119 --> 00:28:42,720 as a tool. I had never heard of this before. Is this is 375 00:28:42,759 --> 00:28:47,200 this something? Where did you first catch wind of this? Because I just 376 00:28:47,359 --> 00:28:51,160 never heard about this. Well over the years, I came across a few 377 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:55,000 stories and snippets here and there as to sort of, you know, how 378 00:28:55,039 --> 00:29:00,880 the Russians were manipulating the UFO subject. Now, the reason why most people, 379 00:29:00,759 --> 00:29:04,240 the general public, all of us. The main reason why we didn't 380 00:29:04,279 --> 00:29:10,079 know was because it was being done very, very sort of deeply and secretly 381 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:14,920 behind the scenes, and so this sort of almost like a silent war was 382 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:21,960 going on between Russian intelligence and American intelligence, and the average person who might 383 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:26,839 have been interested in the UFO subject wouldn't have known of that aspect of it. 384 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:32,960 But I often used the Freedom Information Act of a number of nations and 385 00:29:33,079 --> 00:29:38,000 managed to get hold of a lot of documentations showing there was deep concern even 386 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:44,519 in sort of the weeks and months after the Kenneth Arnold case in nineteen forty 387 00:29:44,559 --> 00:29:48,400 seven, in June twenty four, nineteen forty seven, which was the case 388 00:29:48,519 --> 00:29:52,480 more than any other, that really gave birth to the flying source of phenomenon. 389 00:29:52,839 --> 00:29:57,319 Now, through the Freedom Information Act from the FBI, I got hold 390 00:29:57,359 --> 00:30:04,559 of what of documentation where the FBI came to believe that at least some UFO 391 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:11,839 cases in the summer of forty seven when it all kicked off were actually not 392 00:30:11,079 --> 00:30:18,440 Russian spies, but shall we say people who were sort of either communists or 393 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:26,960 were open to communism and were recruited by the Russians to spread fake UFO stories 394 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:33,920 and to also spread the rumors that these were craft created by the Russians and 395 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:37,160 that they were sort of far in advance of what we got, in other 396 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:41,200 words, like a secret weapon, so to speak. And the FBI actually 397 00:30:41,359 --> 00:30:47,119 opened an entire file on these rumors, and they tried to track down who 398 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:52,200 these people were in the United States who were sort of working on behalf of 399 00:30:52,240 --> 00:31:00,160 the Kremlin as a means to convince the US population that these strange thing that 400 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:04,440 everybody's seen in the sky are coming from the Soviet Union and they can outfly, 401 00:31:06,279 --> 00:31:10,640 and you know, the technology is so advanced that here in the West 402 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:14,880 we'd have nothing to combat them. Now. The reason why this didn't become 403 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,000 sort of big news in terms of the media, but it did in US 404 00:31:18,119 --> 00:31:26,480 intelligence is because the US took steps and very understandably steps as to why they 405 00:31:26,519 --> 00:31:30,839 should keep this quiet because the last thing, you know, we just got 406 00:31:30,839 --> 00:31:37,440 out the Second World War and the Russians were becoming potentially the next big enemies 407 00:31:37,519 --> 00:31:41,960 or foes if you like, and so they tried all their you know, 408 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:48,559 their utmost to try and prevent the Russians from associating. In the mind's eye 409 00:31:48,599 --> 00:31:55,839 of the US to stop them, prevent them from creating a connection between UFOs 410 00:31:55,880 --> 00:32:00,920 and communism. But what I found again, using the Freedom Information Act, 411 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:06,920 I got hold of Georgia Dawski's FBI file. Now, Georgia Damski, for 412 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:10,400 people who may not know, he was one of the earliest so called contacts 413 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:15,119 of the nineteen fifties. Now, they were people who claimed to have had 414 00:32:15,359 --> 00:32:23,599 very close encounters with extremely human looking aliens, usually typically in sort of desert 415 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:30,200 locations, like in the deserts of Arizona, New Mexico, California, and 416 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:34,880 so on. And these so called space brothers that the contact he's met, 417 00:32:36,119 --> 00:32:42,279 they actually sort of spouted a lot of data, if you like, in 418 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:47,480 ideas and concepts that were very much communists in nature. Now, initially the 419 00:32:47,599 --> 00:32:55,319 FBI released about seventy five to eighty pages of material surveillance files on Georgia Damski. 420 00:32:55,960 --> 00:33:00,759 About three years ago, that figure got back to one hundred and fifty 421 00:33:00,759 --> 00:33:06,920 pages by now today the FBI released about four hundred and fifty pages of surveillance 422 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:12,880 documents on Georgia Damski, and most of the contact teas were watched in that 423 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,400 period by the FBI. And I've got most of their FBI files now in 424 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:22,359 adamskis file. As I mentioned at the beginning of the show, his first 425 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:27,680 book, Flying Sources Have Landed, actually sold one hundred and twenty five thousand 426 00:33:28,319 --> 00:33:35,200 books or thereabouts. Now, what happened was that Adamski was someone who, 427 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,119 again a lot of people don't know this, but he was someone who had 428 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:45,440 a big affinity for communism, and on his lecture circuits he would talk about 429 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:50,160 how the Russians were going to dominate the world and that he would only take 430 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:54,680 a small number of atomic bombs to place the US in the state of chaos. 431 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:59,359 And you can understand at the height of the early Cold War and the 432 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:01,720 reds under the beds, threats and everything's that kind of thing. You can 433 00:34:01,759 --> 00:34:07,559 easily understand why the FBI opened a file on Georgia Damski. But what was 434 00:34:07,599 --> 00:34:13,320 even more intriguing. One of the reasons why the file was opened was because 435 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:22,079 on several occasions Adamski was seen chatting at conferences and also in in bars and 436 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:30,960 restaurants in Los Angeles, actually talking with Russian people, apparently all about his 437 00:34:32,079 --> 00:34:36,639 you know, his ability to sort of spread communism, but by doing it 438 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:43,559 through like a flying saucer aspect, and that really worried the FBI. I 439 00:34:43,559 --> 00:34:46,880 mean, if you think about it, if Adamski's book only sold twenty five 440 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:52,679 books, you know, and you know, like on a Sunday afternoon he 441 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:55,440 put a lecture on and ten people would turn up, the FBI probably wouldn't 442 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:59,599 bother about that at all. But here's a guy, but here's a guy 443 00:34:59,679 --> 00:35:05,039 saying Communism's great, and he's selling, you know, one hundred and twenty 444 00:35:05,039 --> 00:35:09,440 five thousand copies of his book, and you know, his lectures were jammed, 445 00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:14,519 they were packed with people. And so the FBI was concerned not so 446 00:35:14,679 --> 00:35:20,320 much about the UFO angle, but they were more concerned about how the UFO 447 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:24,519 issue was being used to spread communism. And as I said, that doesn't 448 00:35:24,559 --> 00:35:28,559 take away the fact that there is, in my mind, a genuine UFO 449 00:35:28,599 --> 00:35:32,159 phenomenon, but that phenomenon in the early fifty was hijacked, if you like, 450 00:35:32,679 --> 00:35:37,920 by the Russians to spread the word that, you know, aren't we 451 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:39,840 living in a great world and over in the US, you're living in a 452 00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:44,840 terrible world. That was basically the heart of it. Isn't that something? 453 00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:52,360 Now? Do you think that they they sort of corded the UFO field or 454 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:57,360 the contact he field or movement because they thought those people were more gullible and 455 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:05,000 more vulnerable to change. I mean, where do you think their reasoning was 456 00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:09,079 as far as targeting, you know the I mean, did they as far 457 00:36:09,119 --> 00:36:14,960 as your research goes. Was it any other type of paranormal situation as well, 458 00:36:15,119 --> 00:36:19,840 or just the flying saucer. Now there actually were other ones, and 459 00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:24,639 I'll talk about a couple of interesting ones, but just quickly, when you 460 00:36:24,679 --> 00:36:30,840 mentioned you know about who gets targeted and why and so on. But the 461 00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:37,360 interesting thing about Georgia Damski is that before he was actually targeted by either Russian 462 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:43,840 intelligence or by people in the United States who you know, were into communism 463 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:50,440 but were US citizens. They basically what happened was that they targeted first people 464 00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:55,880 who the Russians did background checks on, people like Damski, and they basically 465 00:36:55,920 --> 00:37:00,719 targeted those people first because they would be the most honorable. So a lot 466 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:05,920 of background on the part of the Russians went on to try and figure out 467 00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:12,400 who can we use to best achieve this particular goal. But in terms of 468 00:37:12,599 --> 00:37:17,559 other programs as well, which it's not a UFO program, but it does 469 00:37:17,639 --> 00:37:22,519 involve sort of a paranormal phenomenon in the sky. And it relates again to 470 00:37:22,639 --> 00:37:29,920 the Cold War in the early nineteen sixties when Fidel Castro came to power in 471 00:37:30,639 --> 00:37:35,480 Cuba. Now, because you know, Cuba was so close to the US 472 00:37:35,559 --> 00:37:39,920 and still is obviously, and and you know, there was concern about the 473 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:45,960 Russians having sort of you know, satellite bases and things like this on you 474 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:50,639 know, on Cuba itself. Now there's a guy or there was a guy 475 00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:54,480 named Major Edward Lansdale, and he came up with some very weird plans and 476 00:37:54,599 --> 00:38:04,519 projects as to how to try and destabilize the government of Fidel Castro. And 477 00:38:04,679 --> 00:38:08,519 one of the ideas that Landsdale came up with, and I swear I'm not 478 00:38:08,599 --> 00:38:15,079 making this up, but he had this plan where aircraft would be flown into 479 00:38:15,119 --> 00:38:23,400 the clouds over Cuba and they would have these powerful microphones which would blast down 480 00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:29,480 to the ground voices saying this is the basically saying, this is the voice 481 00:38:29,519 --> 00:38:34,960 of Jesus. You need to you know, sort of overthrow Castro and embrace 482 00:38:35,199 --> 00:38:38,559 the world of the West. And to try and achieve that. The other 483 00:38:38,599 --> 00:38:45,280 part of the project was to try and project huge images of Jesus onto clouds, 484 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:49,199 and so you'd have the alleged voice of Jesus and you would have the 485 00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:54,840 projection of Jesus projected onto the clouds as a means to sort of convince the 486 00:38:54,920 --> 00:39:01,559 people of Cuba that a second coming was a was on the horizon and you 487 00:39:01,679 --> 00:39:07,239 better come over to our side and you better do something about But El Castro, 488 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,519 now, the program was actually dropped because it was seen as just too 489 00:39:12,079 --> 00:39:16,320 complicated and too technical to allow it to go ahead. But this plan to 490 00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:24,760 sort of project not so much holograms but images onto the clouds and to blast 491 00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:29,480 you know, that the so called voice of Jesus, that was the plan 492 00:39:29,559 --> 00:39:31,400 and it was going to go ahead. But as I said, there were 493 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:36,519 so many ifs and butts, and in the end they dropped the program. 494 00:39:36,559 --> 00:39:40,039 But that was sort of one of the really alternative programs, which as I 495 00:39:40,079 --> 00:39:44,239 said, it wasn't a UFO program, but it did involve, you know, 496 00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:47,679 like a supernatural image in the sky. And had it worked, I 497 00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:52,599 mean, who knows what history would would it have changed? It? You 498 00:39:52,679 --> 00:39:59,000 know? That's right? Well, so so interesting as far as as far 499 00:39:59,159 --> 00:40:06,119 as when there the contact team movement here Was there anything at all like that 500 00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:09,079 in Russia? Did they have any people that claim that they were contacteas over 501 00:40:09,119 --> 00:40:14,079 there? Did you find any of that? Well, that's a good question, 502 00:40:14,159 --> 00:40:17,239 and the answer to that question is actually no, There weren't really in 503 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:23,039 the forties and fifties, hardly anybody in the contact team movements in Russia at 504 00:40:23,079 --> 00:40:29,599 that time that was really you know, sort of high profile or was being 505 00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:36,440 manipulated by the intelligence services. It was primarily in the United States, the 506 00:40:36,599 --> 00:40:40,920 UK, and Australia. Now one of the more intriguing cases involves a guy 507 00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:47,079 named Orfeo Angel Lucci, and he was sort of like the second level of 508 00:40:47,119 --> 00:40:52,440 the contact He's in the fifties when it all kicked off and we had the 509 00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:57,119 flying source of phenomenon began in forty seven with Kenneth Arnold. Then it was 510 00:40:57,159 --> 00:41:00,400 sort of round about fifty one when people started to claimed they'd seen these very 511 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:06,719 human looking aliens known as the Space Brothers. And without doubt, you know, 512 00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:08,800 whether you believe his stories or not, Georgia Damski was sort of the 513 00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:14,519 ultimate contact tea. But then you had sort of like the second level at 514 00:41:14,559 --> 00:41:21,480 George van Tassel, and then you had Orpheo angel Lucci, excuse me and 515 00:41:21,679 --> 00:41:27,679 various other ones now that the most interesting story is one of Orpheo angel Luci. 516 00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:32,079 And he was someone who claimed to have had close encounters late at night 517 00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:40,679 in Los Angeles in the early nineteen fifties. And again, the typical conversation 518 00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:46,000 revolved around how we should get rid of our nuclear weapons and all live together, 519 00:41:46,559 --> 00:41:51,000 otherwise the world's going to be destroyed and so on, and angel Lucci 520 00:41:51,199 --> 00:41:55,280 was sort of quite inspired by these claimed encounters to go out there and sort 521 00:41:55,280 --> 00:42:00,280 of spread the word as we all need to live together and the Russians aren't 522 00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:02,960 so bad after all, and again, kind of like a Damski, he 523 00:42:04,039 --> 00:42:07,920 got a very large following. What's particularly intriguing those that one by his own 524 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:16,800 admission, on one occasion in the nineteen fifties, angel Lucci was essentially drugged 525 00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:21,880 by sort of like a mind altering drug in the early nineteen fifties, and 526 00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:24,119 as he wrote it, as he wrote the story of himself, he was 527 00:42:24,159 --> 00:42:30,199 interrogated by what he came to believe was somebody in US intelligence who wanted to 528 00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:36,280 know who these people in Russian intelligence were that had approached him and who had 529 00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:40,480 sort of pushed him to promote the communist angle in his lectures and in his 530 00:42:40,559 --> 00:42:45,199 books. You know, they wanted him to talk about communism in his lectures, 531 00:42:45,519 --> 00:42:51,360 they wanted to talk to write about communism in relation to aliens in his 532 00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:55,679 books, and American intelligence wanted to know who it was that had hired him 533 00:42:55,880 --> 00:43:01,480 to do this. Now, it turned out, but angel Lucci actually hadn't 534 00:43:01,519 --> 00:43:07,320 been recruited, although American intelligence thought he had been, that he actually fought 535 00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:10,079 against it. He was not a communist at all. But he didn't stop 536 00:43:10,079 --> 00:43:15,199 the Russians from sort of clandestinely saying, ay, Orfio, you know, 537 00:43:15,039 --> 00:43:20,840 you start talking about the communist side of why you know of the aliens and 538 00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:24,119 so on. You know, we'll make it financially worth your time to do 539 00:43:24,199 --> 00:43:27,920 so. And to his credit, you know, he backed away and said 540 00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:32,840 not just no, but hell no. And an extensive file was opened on 541 00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:37,280 him. But the FBI realized that he was really, you know, he 542 00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:42,239 wasn't sort of a guilty person. He was someone caught up in this strange 543 00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:47,400 scenario where the Russians had approached him and wanted him to promote communism from an 544 00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:52,320 alien perspective. And so you know, it was a very odd period. 545 00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:58,199 This is still sort of nineteen fifties, mid to late nineteen fifties, when 546 00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:04,199 people like a. Damski and Angel Lucie were being closely watched by the FBI, 547 00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:07,320 and equally they were a bit trying, you know, they're being pushed 548 00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:14,840 by the Russians to try and influence the US public, the population into thinking 549 00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:17,480 that, oh my god, you know, communism is the way of the 550 00:44:17,519 --> 00:44:23,400 future and it's extraterrestrial. And today, looking back, it sounds really bizarre 551 00:44:23,559 --> 00:44:30,400 and weird. But from the Russians perspective, the idea was that we really 552 00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:36,719 can alter the mindset of the population, and the US intelligence were sort of 553 00:44:37,079 --> 00:44:43,880 quite understandably trying to find a way to completely obliterate this particular program. And 554 00:44:44,039 --> 00:44:49,360 the concern they had was that the UFO subject has a huge following, you 555 00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:52,280 know, it always has. But back in the fifties, you know a 556 00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:55,519 lot of those books they sold six figures, you know, regularly, And 557 00:44:55,599 --> 00:45:00,000 so what we today might think, well, that's right, really weird, 558 00:45:00,079 --> 00:45:04,440 you know, trying to make the other side thing that aliens are communists, 559 00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:07,760 But back then it really was seen as like a viable tool if you like 560 00:45:08,039 --> 00:45:15,320 to really scare the US and the UK and Australia into thinking that's you know, 561 00:45:15,559 --> 00:45:20,639 yes, there's a real UFO phenomenon, but it's not on your side, 562 00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:24,800 you know. And and it was really just all about sort of psychologically 563 00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:30,119 playing with the mindset of the potential enemy, you know. Yeah, with 564 00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:35,159 the amount I was just thinking of something kind of funny, with the amount 565 00:45:35,159 --> 00:45:39,880 of times that we've been talking about the communism and communists today, and we're 566 00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:47,000 using scape over phone and all that. The NSA is probably listening. Well, 567 00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:52,119 hopefully I'm helping them to you know, demonstrate what's been going on, 568 00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:53,840 you know. Yeah, yeah, you know, it's I do have to 569 00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:58,960 say, spending as much time in Russia as I have, I did speak 570 00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:01,079 to a number of people. Some people over there, there are some that 571 00:46:01,119 --> 00:46:07,199 speak English that I was able to communicate. I don't know any Russian. 572 00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:12,440 I can just barely get by. But anyway, I was surprised at how 573 00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:19,039 many people I got into conversations and talked about communism that actually liked communism. 574 00:46:19,559 --> 00:46:22,320 They I mean, it's such a bad word here. It's almost like, 575 00:46:22,639 --> 00:46:27,840 you know, the word communists and communism makes people shake in their boots. 576 00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:30,239 But these people that I spoke to over there said, hey, you know, 577 00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:34,280 the food was better, and you know, they and you know we 578 00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:37,519 weren't there, weren't people you know, starving and like they like there is 579 00:46:37,559 --> 00:46:43,039 now and you know, so I'm sure there are good points, you know, 580 00:46:43,079 --> 00:46:46,760 but obviously it's it's it doesn't work. It didn't work there anyway, 581 00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:51,639 you know, it's still still on going in China. Yeah, And I 582 00:46:51,679 --> 00:46:54,800 think, you know, we can learn a lot from sort of each other's 583 00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:59,000 cultures. I mean, for example, you know, you can obviously tell 584 00:46:59,039 --> 00:47:02,880 from my voice originally from England, you know, and you know, I 585 00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:07,920 grew up in England as a kid and teenager and through my twenties before I 586 00:47:07,039 --> 00:47:13,519 moved over here. But I mean, you know that the for example, 587 00:47:13,599 --> 00:47:19,559 the British medical insurance, you know, is very different to over here. 588 00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:27,199 And I often see in the US that people refer to the UK's medical service 589 00:47:27,679 --> 00:47:32,719 as a socialized medicine or socialized insurance, and just that word socialize, you 590 00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:37,119 know, put the you know, raises the hairs on the back of people 591 00:47:37,519 --> 00:47:39,000 and it makes it sound like, you know, we're all a bunch of 592 00:47:39,079 --> 00:47:45,280 sort of red flag wave in comices. You know it's not like that at 593 00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:49,960 all. Yes, the yes, the you know, the medical insurance program 594 00:47:50,599 --> 00:47:55,360 in the UK is very different to in the US, but you know it's 595 00:47:55,480 --> 00:48:00,679 not socialized medicine, which sounds just like you know, something that crawled out 596 00:48:00,679 --> 00:48:05,960 of the Kremlin. You know, it's not. And so you know, 597 00:48:06,039 --> 00:48:08,920 there's we can all sort of learn, I think, from from each other. 598 00:48:09,119 --> 00:48:13,800 Now. You know, I think, I mean, communism does not 599 00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:20,559 work, you know, and I think you know, an enterprising um economy 600 00:48:21,159 --> 00:48:25,519 and encouraging people, you know, to get out there and and and achieve 601 00:48:25,639 --> 00:48:30,960 things in lives, you know, not just personally, but also economically as 602 00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:32,440 well. I think that that that's a very good thing, you know. 603 00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:37,280 Yeah. And then another thing that really grew was the black market. You 604 00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:42,519 know, when there's communism, there was people still making money, but you 605 00:48:42,559 --> 00:48:45,400 know, uh, not not in a legal way. And that that's that's 606 00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:47,960 what There's a lot of things that grow out of that. You know. 607 00:48:49,199 --> 00:48:52,480 In capitalism, you know, is not fault free either. You know, 608 00:48:52,559 --> 00:48:57,480 we have the the the one percent of lead and all that, you know, 609 00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:00,800 making more money than you know, see EO is making three hundred times 610 00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:05,519 what a worker makes and actually works on the product. So there is a 611 00:49:05,559 --> 00:49:08,119 lot of things that could be tweaked, that's for sure. You know. 612 00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:13,599 Well, I'll tell you a funny story. I mentioned how you know I've 613 00:49:13,639 --> 00:49:19,760 got several friends who are Russians. Well, I've also got several friends who 614 00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:25,119 actually happen to be Russian strippers. They make a huge amount of money. 615 00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:32,400 Yeah, they've they've embraced they've embraced capitalism with a capital C, you know. 616 00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:37,880 Yeah, yeah, well, yeah, it's an interesting culture and money. 617 00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:43,320 Money is very important. Money has and it's because lack of you know, 618 00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:46,440 growing up in the atmosphere of lack of so money and material is very 619 00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:51,119 important to the culture. I've seen that for sure. Yeah, and I 620 00:49:51,159 --> 00:49:53,559 think what's important, you know, when it comes to this issue of sort 621 00:49:53,559 --> 00:50:01,480 of Russian manipulation of the UFO subject, it's very easy to actually manipulation people. 622 00:50:01,679 --> 00:50:07,519 Don't manipulate excuse me, people on a large scale. Um, you 623 00:50:07,559 --> 00:50:10,039 know, it doesn't take long for the sort of the whole mindset to sort 624 00:50:10,039 --> 00:50:14,840 of get in line when there's a threat or something. You know, and 625 00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:17,800 it's kind of like, you know the issue of when you go to the 626 00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:22,679 airport you take your shoes off, Well, you know, that was that 627 00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:28,599 was revolved around, you know, one person who had that potential bombing issue, 628 00:50:28,639 --> 00:50:32,599 which actually didn't work. And yet everybody goes to the airport and without 629 00:50:32,639 --> 00:50:37,079 thinking takes their shoes off. In other words, you know, when something 630 00:50:37,199 --> 00:50:43,599 happens, we subconsciously or unconsciously get in line with it, you know. 631 00:50:43,679 --> 00:50:49,119 And that's a perfect example of it. And I think that's what the Russians 632 00:50:49,119 --> 00:50:54,400 were hoping for. They were hoping for an assumption that would become accepted that 633 00:50:55,360 --> 00:51:00,800 you know that the Aliens are here, and you know they're on the side 634 00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:05,039 of the Russians, And that's why you had things like the CIA's Robertson Panel, 635 00:51:05,079 --> 00:51:12,639 which was created in the fifties to actually try and prevent that scenario from 636 00:51:12,639 --> 00:51:19,440 occurring. That the Robertson panel was this excuse me, this panel created in 637 00:51:19,559 --> 00:51:24,840 late fifties, but which really came to the four in nineteen fifty three, 638 00:51:25,039 --> 00:51:30,199 and the CI realized that if they didn't sort of intervene, that more and 639 00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:36,639 more of these bogus stories about you know, extraterrestrial communists and so on, 640 00:51:37,119 --> 00:51:42,440 they didn't stop it, that more and more people would buy into the hysteria. 641 00:51:42,559 --> 00:51:45,000 But without thinking about it kind of again, like you know, when 642 00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:46,760 you go to the airport, you just take your shoes off without thinking. 643 00:51:47,239 --> 00:51:52,760 And so the CIA came up with all sorts of pluts as a means to 644 00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:58,440 try and destabilize the Russians UFO program. And I talk about that in the 645 00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:07,039 book where US Intelligence created fake stories that have crashed UFOs. They basically created 646 00:52:07,119 --> 00:52:13,880 fake stories saying that US intelligence had got crashed UFO materials and debris and alien 647 00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:20,079 technology, and they subtly ceeded that story into Russian intelligence to make it look 648 00:52:20,159 --> 00:52:22,519 like it had been stolen, you know, the dates had been stolen from 649 00:52:22,519 --> 00:52:28,159 the US. And in reality, you know, the US intelligence actually created 650 00:52:28,199 --> 00:52:32,559 these stories to try and frighten the Kremlin, you know, the Russian premiers 651 00:52:32,599 --> 00:52:37,679 and so on, to try and convince them that, you know, us, 652 00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:42,800 the US government had got alien technology, highly advanced technology, and so 653 00:52:43,039 --> 00:52:45,760 you know, the plan was to try and frighten the Russians into thinking, 654 00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:50,159 you know, we'd got highly advanced weaponry that they hadn't got. So it 655 00:52:50,239 --> 00:52:53,639 became almost like a really weird game almost, you know, between the two 656 00:52:53,679 --> 00:52:59,440 to try and you know, who could who could sort of best the other, 657 00:52:59,639 --> 00:53:02,719 you know, isn't that something. So we are going into break here 658 00:53:02,719 --> 00:53:07,519 in about one minute or so. So do you think that there's any UFO 659 00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:15,039 stories that either side, either Russian or American, are out there that can 660 00:53:15,119 --> 00:53:21,800 be debunked as a you know, one of these cases where you know they 661 00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:25,679 were trying to influence something that is standing that you're aware of. People call 662 00:53:25,719 --> 00:53:30,719 it like a UFO incident that never was. Yeah, I mean a perfect 663 00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:36,960 example is an alleged UFO crash in the island of spitzberg And just off the 664 00:53:37,039 --> 00:53:39,760 coast of Norway in the early nineteen fifties. And it's sort of like, 665 00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:44,400 I guess it's like Norway's version of Roswell. You know, it's a story 666 00:53:44,599 --> 00:53:49,800 of a crashed UFO. Now, if you go to the National Security Agency, 667 00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:52,440 the NSA's websites and go to their UFO section, and they put some 668 00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:58,880 of their files on UFOs on their websites, there's actually a section about this 669 00:53:59,039 --> 00:54:04,559 crashed UFOs story. Now, somebody at the NSA has circled the section on 670 00:54:04,599 --> 00:54:09,519 the Spitzbergen case and in big capital letters they've written the word plant. Now 671 00:54:09,559 --> 00:54:13,559 at that point, I talk about this in the book, and I point 672 00:54:13,559 --> 00:54:19,440 out that we could be looking at the NSA having created and fabricated this Spitzberg 673 00:54:19,440 --> 00:54:23,000 and story of a crashed UFO, or the NSA found out it was a 674 00:54:23,079 --> 00:54:28,800 Russian plants. We just don't know which is the truth. But we've got 675 00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:32,559 the documents showing that the NSA were clear on the fact that this Spitzberg and 676 00:54:32,599 --> 00:54:38,400 crashed UFO story of the early fifties was a plant. Now, this was 677 00:54:38,519 --> 00:54:45,199 clearly either created by US intelligence to think the Russians, you know, make 678 00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:49,239 the Russians think that we got highly advanced staium technology, or it was the 679 00:54:49,239 --> 00:54:52,920 other way around. But that story, to get back to your question, 680 00:54:52,199 --> 00:54:58,920 that story that the Spitzberg and UFO case is still sort of champion to this 681 00:54:59,039 --> 00:55:05,119 day, seventy years almost after it allegedly occurs, and a lot of people 682 00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:08,199 uphology still believe that is a legitimate case. Now, maybe it is, 683 00:55:08,559 --> 00:55:14,119 but when you say official documents referring to it as a plans, then you 684 00:55:14,159 --> 00:55:17,559 actually have to wonder, you know, was this a Russian program or was 685 00:55:17,599 --> 00:55:23,239 it an American response to the Russian program? Fascinating? Okay, we're going 686 00:55:23,280 --> 00:55:28,920 into the break. This is Martin Willis with Podcast UFO. My guest is 687 00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:34,360 Nick Redfern and we'll be right back in just a couple of minutes. All 688 00:55:34,480 --> 00:55:37,079 right, that's it for the free part of the show. Thank you so 689 00:55:37,199 --> 00:55:44,159 much for listening. We'll be back next week with Diana Pulsilka and she wrote 690 00:55:44,199 --> 00:55:50,039 the book called American Cosmic UFO's Religion in Technology. She'll be a great guest, 691 00:55:50,079 --> 00:55:52,519 I'm sure of it. I've heard a lot of good things about her. 692 00:55:52,559 --> 00:55:57,679 Also, I want to thank you for listening to the show. The 693 00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:02,719 two hour full show is for subscribers at two dollars or more a month, 694 00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:07,760 and you can see that information over at podcastufo dot com. You sign up 695 00:56:08,079 --> 00:56:13,320 through our subscription service there. If you can afford to sign up and you 696 00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:15,239 want to listen to the full shows, a little secret, all you have 697 00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:21,559 to do is go to our YouTube channel. That's Martin Willis Live shows over 698 00:56:21,599 --> 00:56:25,119 at YouTube and all the shows, the full shows are over there. So 699 00:56:27,239 --> 00:56:30,039 the best part about being a subscriber is you help support the show. Does 700 00:56:30,119 --> 00:56:35,480 cost quite a bit to run this show, and also that you can run 701 00:56:35,679 --> 00:56:39,840 the shows on your media players full shows anyway, Thanks so much for listening, 702 00:56:39,920 --> 00:56:58,159 and remember to keep your eyes to the sky.