WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.320 --> 00:00:04.240 Hello, and welcome to this episode of Superhero Ethics. Friends. This will 2 00:00:04.280 --> 00:00:07.480 be the last our hiatus episodes. We've got a bunch of new content coming 3 00:00:07.519 --> 00:00:10.560 for you now that the strike is over. We're gonna be kicking off with 4 00:00:10.599 --> 00:00:13.720 an episode about the Boys and a great new book that's been written about that 5 00:00:13.800 --> 00:00:18.800 TV show. We have content coming about what is a Christmas movie and the 6 00:00:18.839 --> 00:00:23.239 whole genre of Christmas movies that we know and love or not love. We've 7 00:00:23.239 --> 00:00:26.719 got stuff coming on Spider Man, on all shorts of new content it's been 8 00:00:26.719 --> 00:00:29.399 coming out, and today, in a weird way, we're gonna be kicking 9 00:00:29.399 --> 00:00:33.079 off our Christmas movie content by giving you a blast from the past one of 10 00:00:33.079 --> 00:00:38.320 our favorite old episodes, our coverage of that well known Christmas movie Batman returns. 11 00:00:38.479 --> 00:00:40.520 Do you think it's a Christmas movie? Do you not think it's Christmas 12 00:00:40.560 --> 00:00:43.159 movie? Well, let us know because we'll be going into that further in 13 00:00:43.200 --> 00:00:47.280 our Christmas movie episode. But for now, enjoy this episode. Thank you 14 00:00:47.320 --> 00:00:51.000 again so much for all your support during the strike, and we will be 15 00:00:51.039 --> 00:00:55.079 back with all new content starting next week. Hello, and welcome to this 16 00:00:55.119 --> 00:01:00.039 episode of Superhero Ethics. Today we're talking about Batman returns the second of the 17 00:01:00.119 --> 00:01:03.239 Michael Keaton Tim Burton team up movies. We're getting into that with myself, 18 00:01:03.280 --> 00:01:07.760 Paul Hoppy and Ashley Coffin talking about the ethical issues around Batman, the look, 19 00:01:07.840 --> 00:01:11.560 the feel, the tone, looking at how this movie fits into our 20 00:01:11.640 --> 00:01:15.680 understanding of who Batman is as we get ready for the Batman movie coming out 21 00:01:15.680 --> 00:01:19.000 in March, and asking is this hard Batman all that more? After a 22 00:01:19.000 --> 00:01:30.319 commercial Rick we have no control over, but maybe Max Shrek does. Welcome 23 00:01:30.319 --> 00:01:33.480 back to Matthew host joined it, as said by Ashley Coffin and Paul Happy, 24 00:01:33.560 --> 00:01:36.239 Ashley, you weren't able to join us last time, so so glad 25 00:01:36.239 --> 00:01:38.680 you here. This is a movie you're pre fond of, if I understand 26 00:01:38.680 --> 00:01:42.760 correctly, Yeah, this is one of my favorite movies for just so many 27 00:01:42.840 --> 00:01:47.640 reasons. Nice. Nice, We'll really good to have you this, Paul. 28 00:01:47.680 --> 00:01:51.200 Good to have you back discussing Batman again. Yeah, it's nice to 29 00:01:51.239 --> 00:01:55.959 be back. I'm also extra glad Ashley's here because I always always enjoy podcasting 30 00:01:56.359 --> 00:02:00.439 with Ashley. But also I rewatched the movie and like, didn't love it, 31 00:02:00.719 --> 00:02:06.400 so it'll be nice to have you know, a more positive voice. 32 00:02:06.400 --> 00:02:07.639 So there's a lot I like about it, And it's not like I'm just 33 00:02:07.719 --> 00:02:12.599 gonna be trashing it or anything, but there's there's some there's some things. 34 00:02:13.400 --> 00:02:16.000 Yeah, I did not love it the first time I saw it as a 35 00:02:16.080 --> 00:02:22.680 kid. He came out like ninety two something like that. Rewatching it again 36 00:02:22.759 --> 00:02:25.439 now, I don't think it is not to be on the same level as 37 00:02:25.479 --> 00:02:28.400 the first one or a lot of the other Like, I think it's definitely 38 00:02:28.400 --> 00:02:30.240 in like, not my top tier a Batman movies, but I definitely think 39 00:02:30.240 --> 00:02:32.840 there's a lot more than I got out of the movie than I saw than 40 00:02:32.840 --> 00:02:35.960 I got out of it when I was a kid. So yeah, thinks 41 00:02:36.039 --> 00:02:39.240 really interesting kind of hearing both your perspectives on this. And let's just start 42 00:02:39.280 --> 00:02:44.439 with kind of a plot summary, Paul, having given you no preparation at 43 00:02:44.439 --> 00:02:46.439 all, do you want to just for those who haven't seen this movie before 44 00:02:46.599 --> 00:02:49.919 or haven't remembered it, give kind of a quick, thirty second, woe 45 00:02:49.919 --> 00:02:53.800 minute plot summary. Yeah. Cool. It's an origin story for Penguin and 46 00:02:53.919 --> 00:02:58.479 Catwoman, and there's a bigness businessman who's like Max Lord, but isn't Max 47 00:02:58.520 --> 00:03:01.120 Lord. He's Max Shrek or his Shrek, which is a weird name for 48 00:03:01.159 --> 00:03:06.240 him to have, and I guess Batman's also in the movie. Yeah, 49 00:03:06.360 --> 00:03:10.120 yeah, I think that's pretty well put. Yeah, it's we get the 50 00:03:10.120 --> 00:03:14.800 Catwoman origin story. She's the secretary for Max Shrek. He's you know, 51 00:03:15.560 --> 00:03:22.520 evil businessperson dot Org. He wants to uh take over the city because the 52 00:03:22.520 --> 00:03:25.039 mayor is getting in the way of his dreams for a power plant. And 53 00:03:25.240 --> 00:03:30.159 meanwhile, this penguin guy has been down in the sewers doing penguin things. 54 00:03:30.719 --> 00:03:34.039 Is he a man eater? Is he not? And so Max kind of 55 00:03:34.560 --> 00:03:38.639 pulls Penguin out into the light and makes him a hero and then orchestrates for 56 00:03:38.680 --> 00:03:44.560 Penguin to run for mayor. And all this time, uh Selena Kyle, 57 00:03:44.840 --> 00:03:51.759 Max Max's secretary, is trying to executive assistant executive assistant, thank you. 58 00:03:53.319 --> 00:03:57.039 She gets thrown out a window and a bunch of cats lick her, and 59 00:03:57.120 --> 00:04:01.360 so she becomes Catwoman. I think it's the thing, which is still very 60 00:04:01.360 --> 00:04:04.840 difficult scene for me to watch, and I love her. It grosses me 61 00:04:04.879 --> 00:04:09.919 out. Really, the magic realism of this movie will definitely be discussing. 62 00:04:10.680 --> 00:04:15.680 But at the end, Penguin reveals that he's penguin. Catwoman winds up being 63 00:04:15.719 --> 00:04:19.240 a pseudo ally pseudo not as we'll discuss. She kills Max Shrek. We 64 00:04:19.279 --> 00:04:21.639 think she might have died, but we see her at the very last frame 65 00:04:21.680 --> 00:04:30.360 of the movie, and Batman like fights crime, but like Batman gets framed 66 00:04:30.399 --> 00:04:36.680 a lot exactly well, and so let's let's kind of go from there into 67 00:04:36.720 --> 00:04:41.800 kind of general impressions in the movie, because to me, I think the 68 00:04:41.800 --> 00:04:45.600 most interesting thing about it and you'd think this is a bad thing, but 69 00:04:45.639 --> 00:04:47.360 I actually kind of really like it is that, as you said, Paul, 70 00:04:47.439 --> 00:04:50.600 Batman is a very small part of this movie, and even more so, 71 00:04:51.480 --> 00:04:56.319 Batman doesn't have a character arc in this movie. Like this feels to 72 00:04:56.360 --> 00:04:59.480 me a lot like in Epithy. I think we've often talked before about how 73 00:04:59.519 --> 00:05:02.199 we don't like like the the idea that in a movie you have to kind 74 00:05:02.199 --> 00:05:06.839 of question the premise every single time. This feels like an episode. You 75 00:05:06.879 --> 00:05:10.560 know, Batman is Batman at the beginning, he's Batman at the end. 76 00:05:10.639 --> 00:05:15.600 It's just it's the like Catwoman and Penguin episode of Tim Burton Batman. I 77 00:05:15.639 --> 00:05:21.439 think that's waal put. Yeah, yeah, I'm trying to like it's funny 78 00:05:21.439 --> 00:05:24.720 because you're right, because I have to sit here and think about like what 79 00:05:24.800 --> 00:05:28.879 Batman was doing. But it's because like I wonder, I would love to 80 00:05:28.920 --> 00:05:30.920 know more about how this film was made, because I would wonder if that 81 00:05:31.040 --> 00:05:38.040 was the initial storyline or if these two actors just like had roles written for 82 00:05:38.120 --> 00:05:41.439 them that were just so perfect, because like Danny DeVito has been in a 83 00:05:41.480 --> 00:05:44.360 lot of great movies, but for me, this is one of his best 84 00:05:44.439 --> 00:05:47.360 roles, and it's very like, I don't know, he's intense, he's 85 00:05:47.439 --> 00:05:54.199 funny and Catwoman like that year I was Catwoman for Halloween. Like she started 86 00:05:54.319 --> 00:05:58.480 my love of like the tortured villain. Like you're a villain, but you're 87 00:05:58.519 --> 00:06:02.879 not a villain but you know, more Punisher style kind of vigilanti villain that 88 00:06:03.040 --> 00:06:10.399 I love and you know, as an adult, aspire to be. But 89 00:06:10.439 --> 00:06:15.040 I don't know, there was a lot the Batman of it all was just 90 00:06:15.079 --> 00:06:18.600 like he was a ploy. Yeah, Like I'd be kind of curious what 91 00:06:18.680 --> 00:06:23.160 the salaries were, and I I mean, Michael Keaton is the Stalk? 92 00:06:25.680 --> 00:06:29.800 Is that that real? Yeah? Michael Keaton made ten million, Michelle made 93 00:06:29.800 --> 00:06:35.920 three million, oh no, which was two million more than the originally intended 94 00:06:38.279 --> 00:06:44.000 actress for a cat Woman how much Danny divido't make I don't know that. 95 00:06:44.759 --> 00:06:47.839 I think a Nett Benning was originally going to be Catwoman. Oh, Michelle, 96 00:06:48.120 --> 00:06:50.560 I can see it. But Michelle was a much better choice. She 97 00:06:50.680 --> 00:06:55.000 was fantastic. Yeah, but yeah, clearly to me it's I mean, 98 00:06:55.279 --> 00:06:59.040 in terms of like amount paid pro line of dialogue or moment on screen, 99 00:07:00.199 --> 00:07:02.240 Keaton is making one hell of a good deal. Yeah. Yeah, it's 100 00:07:02.279 --> 00:07:09.439 not quite Mark Hamill in The Force Awakens, but top billing plus millions for 101 00:07:09.600 --> 00:07:13.240 zero lines of dialogue. But so, I guess that's kind of my My 102 00:07:13.319 --> 00:07:16.279 overall impression is like I love that it's not an origin story for it's not 103 00:07:16.439 --> 00:07:18.680 a Batman movie, and I mean it's a Batman movie, but like it 104 00:07:18.680 --> 00:07:23.000 doesn't have to have a plot hook. I love that for Batman. I 105 00:07:23.079 --> 00:07:26.560 like the two characters. Some of it just doesn't grab me, but overall, 106 00:07:26.879 --> 00:07:30.920 I like the kind of social commentary aspects. Actually, for you, 107 00:07:30.959 --> 00:07:36.720 what makes this movie so good. It's there's some parts of this movie that 108 00:07:36.759 --> 00:07:42.959 are kind of unforgettable for me, like doing theater and as an actor and 109 00:07:43.560 --> 00:07:47.160 see like the freak out Selena Kyles freak out Like that's just it just looked 110 00:07:47.199 --> 00:07:50.920 like it was the most fun thing in the world to do. It's one 111 00:07:50.959 --> 00:07:56.399 of the best freakouts I've ever seen on screen. And like this is when 112 00:07:56.439 --> 00:08:01.079 you're getting introduced to like a very different kind of catwoman from you know, 113 00:08:01.120 --> 00:08:05.720 like the Adam West stuff, and you know, we're seeing like she's, 114 00:08:05.720 --> 00:08:09.120 well, we don't really get the full story of how it happened, what's 115 00:08:09.199 --> 00:08:15.839 you know, whatever, you know, but coming back and like getting in 116 00:08:15.920 --> 00:08:18.839 her boss's face the kind of way that she did, Like sure, he's 117 00:08:18.839 --> 00:08:22.399 like I'll just push her out of Hiowinda, but still like there's just this 118 00:08:22.600 --> 00:08:28.040 empowerment in her character that as a young girl really stood out for me. 119 00:08:28.240 --> 00:08:33.279 And then it's Christmas Movie, which I we watch it on Christmas Eve every 120 00:08:33.360 --> 00:08:39.720 year, so there's something about the whole Christmas aspect. I don't know. 121 00:08:39.799 --> 00:08:41.159 I just I really love the journey that it goes on, and it almost 122 00:08:41.360 --> 00:08:46.600 I feel like you're like going down this hole with Bruce Wayne, Like there's 123 00:08:46.720 --> 00:08:50.639 these two dominating people and you don't know, like what are you going to 124 00:08:50.720 --> 00:08:54.759 do about it? It's something like the Joker was one thing, but I 125 00:08:54.759 --> 00:08:56.720 feel like he was supposed to be a very young Bruce Wayne even though that 126 00:08:56.919 --> 00:09:01.159 you know, they picked Michael Keaton, who is amazing, but I don't 127 00:09:01.200 --> 00:09:05.879 know, I don't know. I don't think he was ready for them. 128 00:09:07.200 --> 00:09:11.000 Yeah. Yeah, I feel like that scene is definitely one of the best 129 00:09:11.000 --> 00:09:16.039 scenes in this movie. It, I mean where she like literally paints it 130 00:09:16.080 --> 00:09:20.600 black. She's just painting everything black. And oh that pink apartment, uh 131 00:09:20.759 --> 00:09:26.360 yeah, where with the hello there sign that turns into hell here? Oh 132 00:09:26.519 --> 00:09:31.519 beautiful. And one of the things that I think sets her off is, 133 00:09:31.759 --> 00:09:33.720 you know, she's got these messages on her machine, right, and one 134 00:09:33.759 --> 00:09:39.960 of them is from Gotham Lady Perfume and Selina Kyle. It's so creepy, 135 00:09:41.120 --> 00:09:43.960 like the thing it's like your boss will be asking you to stay late for 136 00:09:43.000 --> 00:09:48.480 a candle light dinner for two, like sexual harassment, much like that, 137 00:09:48.759 --> 00:09:52.240 but that that's like what you should want, you know, as an employee, 138 00:09:52.399 --> 00:09:54.039 is like to get with the boss or whatever. It's like, I 139 00:09:54.080 --> 00:09:58.279 don't know. And then then she like busts out and becomes katwoman. Basically 140 00:10:00.039 --> 00:10:03.159 best movie scream, you know what. We talked a little bit of this 141 00:10:03.360 --> 00:10:07.000 about We talked a little bit about this last time, Paul. But I 142 00:10:07.080 --> 00:10:11.080 think in this movie even more, there's sort of a time. I feel 143 00:10:11.080 --> 00:10:15.840 like there's no clear sense of what time this is happen. This movie is 144 00:10:15.879 --> 00:10:18.519 happening in terms of what dates, Oh what era? Yeah, because like 145 00:10:20.039 --> 00:10:22.759 all the men, all the men, especially the journalis with all them are 146 00:10:22.799 --> 00:10:24.480 wearing hats, you know, and to me, that's like that hasn't been 147 00:10:24.480 --> 00:10:28.159 a thing since the fifties really if even before that. Like, and there's 148 00:10:28.200 --> 00:10:31.480 there's so much about it that we talked about this with the TV show Gotham 149 00:10:31.519 --> 00:10:35.360 sometimes that that is kind of like, you know, it's not quite set 150 00:10:35.399 --> 00:10:39.360 in a particular moment in time, and there's a timelessness to go. Gotham 151 00:10:39.440 --> 00:10:43.080 is kind of stuck in the noir era. And I do think that this 152 00:10:43.120 --> 00:10:46.919 movie kind of conveyed and that that advert to me, like that advertisement is 153 00:10:46.919 --> 00:10:50.320 straight out of mad Men, you know very much, or like nineteen fifties 154 00:10:50.320 --> 00:10:54.240 thing I which I love. I'm so like biased against this movie because it 155 00:10:54.240 --> 00:10:58.840 has so many things that I loved well, and so I want to get 156 00:10:58.879 --> 00:11:01.759 into specific details up pull for you kind of generally, what didn't you love 157 00:11:01.759 --> 00:11:07.080 about this movie? I mean, I feel like the plots a mess, 158 00:11:07.320 --> 00:11:11.440 Like the plot and pacing are just a mess, and I feel like it 159 00:11:11.480 --> 00:11:16.320 doesn't get us into Like I feel like I don't care about what's happening a 160 00:11:16.360 --> 00:11:20.919 lot of the time. Sometimes there's cool stuff that's happening and I'm enjoying the 161 00:11:20.960 --> 00:11:24.399 scene, but like within the context of the movie, I'm like, I 162 00:11:24.440 --> 00:11:28.960 don't really know what Penguin wants, like we spend some time with him and 163 00:11:28.039 --> 00:11:33.200 Shrek, and like, you know, having a Batman movie where he's like 164 00:11:33.360 --> 00:11:39.000 not that much of the movie. Like knowing that, like I could see 165 00:11:39.000 --> 00:11:43.600 like watching it again clearly with that in mind might be kind of make it 166 00:11:43.600 --> 00:11:46.519 more enjoyable. I can kind of see how if you love the movie, 167 00:11:46.559 --> 00:11:50.360 like rewatching it is actually like kind of in some ways better than watching it 168 00:11:50.360 --> 00:11:54.879 for the first time. I actually remember the experience of being in the theater 169 00:11:54.480 --> 00:11:58.200 and like for the first half hour just being like what is going on? 170 00:11:58.399 --> 00:12:03.399 Like where's Batman? You know? And I think that can be cool. 171 00:12:03.159 --> 00:12:07.799 I think for like the second movie in potentially a series, you know, 172 00:12:07.960 --> 00:12:13.279 it's it's ambitious. I've seen this described as like the first blockbuster art house 173 00:12:13.320 --> 00:12:16.840 film or something, you know, so it really does feel like I think 174 00:12:16.879 --> 00:12:22.399 they went through at least six scripts. There was Originally it was going to 175 00:12:22.440 --> 00:12:28.840 be about Penguin and Catwoman, Catwoman hunting for like hidden treasure, and which 176 00:12:28.840 --> 00:12:33.279 seems very in character with them, like them wanting material wealth, right, 177 00:12:33.399 --> 00:12:37.039 that's kind of cat Woman's a cat burglar. Penguin's usually this sort of business 178 00:12:37.320 --> 00:12:43.480 kind of gangsterek kind of guy, right, and here Catwoman wants vengeance. 179 00:12:43.039 --> 00:12:48.279 That's it, right, Like she like she's gotten liberation and now she wants 180 00:12:48.399 --> 00:12:54.879 vengeance basically, and Penguin wants vengeance. And you know, and I mean 181 00:12:54.919 --> 00:12:58.480 Penguin like in the beginning, I was like, oh, I'm like I 182 00:12:58.519 --> 00:13:01.600 feel sorry for like this little kid, Like whatever is this little kid? 183 00:13:01.639 --> 00:13:05.480 And like what his parents think? He's ugly? So oh he ate the 184 00:13:05.559 --> 00:13:11.759 cat? Like is that when you would throw him over the first and bridge, 185 00:13:11.840 --> 00:13:13.360 that's when I would throw him out a higher window? Yeah no, 186 00:13:15.279 --> 00:13:20.360 But like, yeah, I there's like a lot about kind of what it 187 00:13:20.480 --> 00:13:24.200 does that I like. But I just feel like the way it gets there, 188 00:13:24.279 --> 00:13:26.320 it feels to me like a movie that went through tons of rewrites and 189 00:13:26.399 --> 00:13:31.440 doesn't have this like tight narrative, but has a lot of great moments. 190 00:13:33.759 --> 00:13:37.039 I think that's a good way of putting it, because I don't want to 191 00:13:37.039 --> 00:13:39.799 get into Penguin specifically, but even just going on the Batman part, Yeah, 192 00:13:39.799 --> 00:13:43.320 I definitely had that first reaction as well. I was paying attention the 193 00:13:43.360 --> 00:13:46.919 first time bet we see Bruce Wayne on screen early on when they light up 194 00:13:46.960 --> 00:13:50.960 the bat signal and he's just sitting in the dark waiting for it. Yeah, 195 00:13:50.960 --> 00:13:54.720 which is one of the most Bruce Wayne moments I've ever seen in my 196 00:13:54.720 --> 00:13:58.159 life. It's fantastic. Yeah, But his first line of spoken dialogue is 197 00:13:58.200 --> 00:14:03.679 I think at thirty minutes right, like, and like, you know, 198 00:14:03.480 --> 00:14:07.759 I kind of think maybe part of it is that there's not much for him 199 00:14:07.799 --> 00:14:13.159 dialogue wise. There's not much for him character development wise. There's not much 200 00:14:13.159 --> 00:14:16.799 for him character development wise, although the romance between him and suddenly n Kyle 201 00:14:16.919 --> 00:14:20.840 is fantastic and I'll say more about that in the moment. But also he 202 00:14:20.840 --> 00:14:24.960 doesn't get to have many cool toys like I did kind of wonder if maybe 203 00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:26.279 part of the problem was in the well he has the boat, but like 204 00:14:28.200 --> 00:14:33.600 that batmobile breaks apart and becomes that torpedo that can go down through Okay, 205 00:14:33.159 --> 00:14:37.840 and then let us tear it apart. Okay, sure, the penguins. 206 00:14:37.200 --> 00:14:41.679 I feel like in the first movie we got so much of like, look 207 00:14:41.679 --> 00:14:45.720 at every cool thing Batman can do, between like the plane and the car 208 00:14:45.840 --> 00:14:50.279 and the different gadgets, that there wasn't anything in this movie where I was 209 00:14:50.320 --> 00:14:54.960 like, oh my god, Batman can do that too. Any other Batmobile 210 00:14:54.960 --> 00:14:58.360 can do some new kind of cool things. But I think that that having 211 00:14:58.399 --> 00:15:03.480 Batman be as to me. I think like the movie did two things, 212 00:15:05.360 --> 00:15:09.000 one of which is have Batman not need to be the central character in terms 213 00:15:09.000 --> 00:15:13.080 of character growth. The other is just significantly reduce his screen time and maybe 214 00:15:13.080 --> 00:15:16.519 you can like maybe you don't have to do both of those things. You 215 00:15:16.519 --> 00:15:20.559 know you could have done the first one, and the second one is give 216 00:15:20.600 --> 00:15:22.879 him up. Like, I don't think there's a fight scene in this movie 217 00:15:22.879 --> 00:15:28.679 that our member is being at all interesting. Yeah, except maybe maybe Catwoman 218 00:15:28.759 --> 00:15:33.480 and Batman Batman. Yeah yeah, but that's that's like really almost like the 219 00:15:33.519 --> 00:15:37.399 only scene I can think of that's like real like hand to hand fighting. 220 00:15:37.879 --> 00:15:41.600 And I feel the opposite in terms of the toys. I hear what you're 221 00:15:41.639 --> 00:15:46.519 saying, and like maybe the toys don't feel as cool as they did in 222 00:15:46.559 --> 00:15:48.879 the first movie, but I feel like they were leaning into them so heavily, 223 00:15:50.200 --> 00:15:52.360 Like he's just constantly he doesn't attack the guy, He like hits the 224 00:15:52.360 --> 00:15:56.679 thing behind him and then pulls the wall onto him. Okay, you know 225 00:15:56.720 --> 00:16:00.919 he's got this battering that he programs to hit a bunch of people. What's 226 00:16:00.039 --> 00:16:03.919 that? Like? The car breaking apart? Like I don't know. I 227 00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:06.960 remember when at that moment in the theater, like it kind of lost me. 228 00:16:07.039 --> 00:16:11.200 It feels like this very sequelitis, like what do we think people want 229 00:16:11.200 --> 00:16:15.000 to see? Okay, let's go more with the toys. And I felt 230 00:16:15.039 --> 00:16:18.720 that fight scenes felt boring because maybe it's because they came with more sort of 231 00:16:18.759 --> 00:16:22.519 gadgets, but they weren't really interesting clever ideas. But also to me, 232 00:16:22.600 --> 00:16:26.039 it's just like, you know, I want to see him sidekick someone, 233 00:16:26.080 --> 00:16:30.240 you know, I hand to hand still in the stage where they couldn't move, 234 00:16:30.480 --> 00:16:33.000 and that goes to the next Like two Batman movies, they put that 235 00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:37.159 cowl on them and they can't move their heads, so you're very limited with 236 00:16:37.200 --> 00:16:41.039 what you can do with an actor. Yeah, but in the first movie, 237 00:16:41.080 --> 00:16:44.159 I feel like they did a better job with it anyway, Like I 238 00:16:44.639 --> 00:16:47.919 I, Yeah, he got his legs up pretty high. There's some pretty 239 00:16:47.919 --> 00:16:49.320 awesome kicks in the first Yeah, there's not a lot of funny. He's 240 00:16:49.320 --> 00:16:53.919 not gonna kick cat Woman in the face. I mean he does. How 241 00:16:53.960 --> 00:16:56.000 could you when he's like, oh, I'm sorry, He's like, dude, 242 00:16:56.559 --> 00:17:03.960 I'm a woman and shouldn't be taken granite. She's so good at playing 243 00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:10.720 off of like dumb mail, chauvinism, I'm a woman the life. I 244 00:17:10.799 --> 00:17:14.119 just I just feel like the fight scenes don't feel compelling. You know. 245 00:17:14.200 --> 00:17:17.559 The only fight scene that I felt at all invested in was the one between 246 00:17:17.599 --> 00:17:22.200 Batwoman. Batwoman and Kay Okay. You know, I think we gotta came 247 00:17:22.279 --> 00:17:25.119 the same play, and that was kind of my point that it felt like 248 00:17:25.119 --> 00:17:27.559 there wasn't enough, Like if he's not gonna be interesting doing speaking things, 249 00:17:27.599 --> 00:17:30.960 at least make the other stuff he's doing interesting. Yeah. I agree with 250 00:17:30.960 --> 00:17:33.039 that totally, And to me, I think one part of it is, 251 00:17:34.160 --> 00:17:38.119 you know, actually the last last episode we talked about how in the last 252 00:17:38.200 --> 00:17:41.559 third of the movie, Batman kind of becomes the punisher in ways we didn't 253 00:17:41.559 --> 00:17:45.920 really love, in terms like using guns and missiles and having really bad aim 254 00:17:45.920 --> 00:17:49.240 when it comes to shooting the Joker. But you know, and but that 255 00:17:49.480 --> 00:17:52.920 you don't think that was on purpose because he's Batman. Well no, because 256 00:17:52.920 --> 00:17:57.079 he clearly kills a bunch of other people. And in this movie when there 257 00:17:57.160 --> 00:18:00.319 was some of the like pulling out pavement to hit people and things like that, 258 00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:03.160 I was kind of like, Oh, okay, are you showing us 259 00:18:03.200 --> 00:18:10.119 that Batman is going to ingenious lengths to incapacitate people without killing them? Okay, 260 00:18:10.160 --> 00:18:12.799 cool? Maybe Nope, he just straight up killed that guy, Like 261 00:18:12.839 --> 00:18:17.759 he threw the guy with the bomb down the hole and then he blew up 262 00:18:17.839 --> 00:18:22.680 like he's just sleeping. He's just sleeping. That That was the moment where 263 00:18:22.680 --> 00:18:27.359 I was like, Okay, so all right, so putting aside Batman, 264 00:18:27.960 --> 00:18:32.240 let's talk about the three villains, because I think the thing I like most 265 00:18:32.240 --> 00:18:36.240 about this movie is the interplay between those three and each of their three characters 266 00:18:36.279 --> 00:18:41.079 being so interesting, and I want to talk about like the each of them 267 00:18:41.079 --> 00:18:44.079 individually, but just starting with I think one of the questions the movie really 268 00:18:44.119 --> 00:18:47.960 asks in such a great way is with Catwoman kind of being sort of an 269 00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:52.039 anti hero, but especially with Penguin and Shrek, the question is like, 270 00:18:52.119 --> 00:18:56.119 who's the real monster. You know, Penguin looks like a monster and does 271 00:18:56.200 --> 00:19:02.079 monstrous things. He eats cats, other thing or eat one cat. Shrek 272 00:19:02.319 --> 00:19:06.680 looks like a respectable businessman. What Over the course of the movie, like 273 00:19:07.400 --> 00:19:11.279 until maybe Tim Burton is just really bad at the last act of movies because 274 00:19:11.279 --> 00:19:15.920 I also like, Penguin feels like such an interesting character to me, who's 275 00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:21.000 not the monster that Max is? Until he decides, Okay, well catwoman 276 00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:22.799 didn't sleep with me, so now I hate her, which was an awful 277 00:19:22.799 --> 00:19:26.799 moment. And also the city doesn't like me, so now I'm gonna blow 278 00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:33.000 it all up or steal all their kids. Like I feel like he kind 279 00:19:33.000 --> 00:19:36.400 of got you, Like I feel like the penguin always was a monster, 280 00:19:36.799 --> 00:19:40.039 but it's like he wasn't a monster because of how he looked. That was 281 00:19:40.079 --> 00:19:42.680 like we were supposed to overcome that prejudice and then realize like, oh, 282 00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:45.680 but he's a monster because he is a monster. Maybe it's because he was, 283 00:19:45.759 --> 00:19:48.079 you know, not treated as well as a child, blah blah blah, 284 00:19:48.079 --> 00:19:52.839 but like he is. Actually what he wants is like revenge on a 285 00:19:52.839 --> 00:19:55.960 bunch of kids who weren't the people who wronged him, right, the people 286 00:19:55.960 --> 00:20:00.559 who wronged him are dead, and like so he just, yeah, I 287 00:20:00.559 --> 00:20:04.440 feel like he's not this like very complex character. He's trying to pretend to 288 00:20:04.519 --> 00:20:10.759 be misunderstood, but he's actually not. Well, it's all of Batman scene 289 00:20:10.759 --> 00:20:15.839 with the with the disc when he actually records what he thinks about the city 290 00:20:15.920 --> 00:20:18.200 and on the other side, you know, it's kind of like, look 291 00:20:18.240 --> 00:20:22.519 at Wilson Fisk. I think Wilson Fisk really believed that what he was doing, 292 00:20:22.799 --> 00:20:26.160 for some part was the best for the city, but the penguin always 293 00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:30.200 knew, always had these other plans. He had the plans to collect the 294 00:20:30.279 --> 00:20:33.000 children before he was mayor, because that's what they were working on up in 295 00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:40.480 his attic whatever like secret like layer where they like inducted him into being mayor. 296 00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:44.319 So he always kind of had this backup plan or was always going to 297 00:20:44.359 --> 00:20:48.519 do that anyway. But if it had all worked out perfectly for him, 298 00:20:48.519 --> 00:20:51.000 that would have stopped it. But that was never going to happen, because 299 00:20:51.000 --> 00:20:53.599 that's just not the way the world works. I guess to me, like 300 00:20:53.720 --> 00:20:59.119 the three of us were the ones who discussed the Witcher. I like I 301 00:20:59.240 --> 00:21:04.000 kind of see Mac Max Shrek as like Stregobore and Penguin as like one of 302 00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:11.359 the monsters they're fighting in terms of like because the story that killed his friend, 303 00:21:11.559 --> 00:21:18.519 I mean like he's a murderer. Yeah, that's is the maximum evil. 304 00:21:18.599 --> 00:21:22.599 Yeah that's yeah my point because he's sort of like I am malevolently plotting 305 00:21:22.680 --> 00:21:26.720 evil, where with Penguin, I got I mean like the kitten like y 306 00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:33.160 off, but like it's like a he's a feral beast and where the development 307 00:21:33.200 --> 00:21:37.799 that I thought I saw from him was he was definitely that kind of very 308 00:21:37.799 --> 00:21:41.640 feral creature, completely unsocialized, like not a good person by any means. 309 00:21:41.680 --> 00:21:45.440 And the fact that Max and in the whole city kind of wants to embrace 310 00:21:45.519 --> 00:21:49.319 him is meant to be kind of ridiculous because he's clearly not a heroic figure. 311 00:21:49.559 --> 00:21:55.359 He saved the mayor's baby, right exactly, But it's but that it's 312 00:21:55.440 --> 00:21:59.720 when he realizes that Max was playing him and the whole thing falls apart on 313 00:21:59.799 --> 00:22:04.880 him, that's kind of his last turn into being, you know even more 314 00:22:04.960 --> 00:22:08.480 like now I'm gonna want to take out all the kids in the city. 315 00:22:08.599 --> 00:22:12.680 But he already had all the plans, like all the names m h. 316 00:22:12.920 --> 00:22:17.720 That's fair, I think, And that's sort of like where Actually the part 317 00:22:17.759 --> 00:22:22.599 of I like a lot about Batman outside of the fight scenes in this movie, 318 00:22:22.839 --> 00:22:26.359 where I'd like that he's very much a detective. I like that he 319 00:22:26.440 --> 00:22:30.880 sees penguins and he sees through his bullshit basically, and he does detective work 320 00:22:30.880 --> 00:22:33.440 and he figures it out, and you know, he records this, you 321 00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:38.880 know, hijacking of the Batmobile on a disc and then play somehow scratches the 322 00:22:38.880 --> 00:22:42.480 CD to make it repeat, Like that's not how that technology works. But 323 00:22:42.960 --> 00:22:45.319 that felt to me like they were like, oh, it's the nineties, 324 00:22:45.400 --> 00:22:48.920 let's do something, you know. I was like, mmmm, And I 325 00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:52.279 love that everything's the bat everything, like even the city player was like the 326 00:22:52.319 --> 00:22:56.400 bat symbol bat CD player exactly, yeah, exactly right. But like that 327 00:22:56.599 --> 00:23:00.400 he is like trying to outsmart you know, I mean, he outsmarts penguin 328 00:23:00.440 --> 00:23:04.759 basically, and like that's that. I enjoy the fighting scenes, you know, 329 00:23:04.839 --> 00:23:10.119 particularly like where you know that woman's on the ledge and then the bats 330 00:23:10.119 --> 00:23:11.720 are there and then she like falls off, and he's just like, oh, 331 00:23:11.920 --> 00:23:15.079 I guess she fell. I'm like, not my Batman, like I 332 00:23:15.920 --> 00:23:19.559 really, he told her not to move, right, He did tell her 333 00:23:19.599 --> 00:23:22.839 not to move, and then she moved, but then like she fell and 334 00:23:22.880 --> 00:23:26.359 then the cops showed up. Oh he should have dove off and tried to 335 00:23:26.359 --> 00:23:30.920 say, like immediately Batman does, what's the point of all those gadgets if 336 00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:33.400 you're not going to jump off the top of a building, grab someone, 337 00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:37.640 shoot some grappling hook and then land like you know, about four feet from 338 00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:41.599 the ground, if that right, Like, maybe he has a Garfield moment 339 00:23:41.640 --> 00:23:44.440 and she doesn't make it, and that's part of how he party gets right, 340 00:23:44.559 --> 00:23:47.359 Yeah, him just standing there and being like oops, like, not 341 00:23:47.400 --> 00:23:49.920 my Batman. The cops show up pretty quick though, Yeah, they were 342 00:23:49.920 --> 00:23:53.599 already yeah right, because there was a thing going on. Yeah. Yeah. 343 00:23:53.480 --> 00:23:56.200 The whole point was Penguin was trying to frame bat right right, to 344 00:23:56.200 --> 00:24:00.039 make him look like and they like the cops shoot him off the top and 345 00:24:00.119 --> 00:24:03.400 that's when he glides down, right. And I think I think you guys 346 00:24:03.400 --> 00:24:06.480 are both right, and I was maybe overstating it. It's not that I 347 00:24:06.480 --> 00:24:08.640 think the Penguin is a good character at all. It's that I think I 348 00:24:08.680 --> 00:24:12.480 think it does set something up where I do think Max is worse, Like 349 00:24:12.559 --> 00:24:19.279 to me at least until at least until that last act and for something for 350 00:24:19.400 --> 00:24:23.400 me, And maybe this is who the penguin always is, but having him 351 00:24:23.640 --> 00:24:32.519 change so quickly on Catwoman because she rejects him sexually or romantic sexually pretty clearly 352 00:24:33.440 --> 00:24:38.039 in such like viciously like oh you're a tease, your right rights. She's 353 00:24:38.079 --> 00:24:41.480 like, I wouldn't touch you, to scratch you. She's the best. 354 00:24:44.240 --> 00:24:49.079 You set out all the signals. I feel like you wanted the penguin, 355 00:24:49.359 --> 00:24:52.759 like that the penguin was pretending to be a character that you would have found 356 00:24:52.799 --> 00:24:57.799 more interesting, and that the movie wasn't necessarily telling an incoherent story about who 357 00:24:57.839 --> 00:25:02.640 this penguin is, But that who this penguin is is less interesting than the 358 00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:06.079 penguin you want. That's fair, That's certainly very fair. And I have 359 00:25:06.599 --> 00:25:08.799 more interesting penguins. I feel like the Gotham penguin is, you know, 360 00:25:08.920 --> 00:25:12.640 more interesting. Some of the animated penguins have a little bit more nuance a 361 00:25:12.720 --> 00:25:15.279 lot of the time, and I wonder if that also is due to some 362 00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:18.559 of the script the script rewrites, is that maybe there may have been a 363 00:25:18.720 --> 00:25:22.680 version of them of the move because I think a lot of this stuff. 364 00:25:22.680 --> 00:25:25.680 I think you're supposed to feel fairly sympathetic for Penguin in a lot of ways. 365 00:25:26.680 --> 00:25:29.160 I Mean, one thing I thought was interesting is they there's kind of 366 00:25:29.240 --> 00:25:33.640 this whole Moses motif, Like that's deliberate. Yeah, yeah, the bashnet 367 00:25:33.720 --> 00:25:37.359 floating on the water, and then like the slaying of the first born. 368 00:25:37.880 --> 00:25:40.200 Is this very like I don't know where this is going, right, but 369 00:25:41.119 --> 00:25:42.559 yeah, I kind of wonder maybe like there's some parts of it that I 370 00:25:42.599 --> 00:25:48.480 think are clearly written to be like Max is the real monster, Penguin is 371 00:25:48.559 --> 00:25:52.599 the the victim who has become a monster, but then probably later rewrites You're 372 00:25:52.599 --> 00:25:55.480 like, no, but let's just make Penguin evil, you know. So 373 00:25:57.319 --> 00:26:02.319 anything else on, mister Peang before we move on to our next contestant. 374 00:26:03.559 --> 00:26:07.359 I'm good. Oh, I mean just like you know, you know in 375 00:26:07.440 --> 00:26:12.240 the Dunk and like, yeah, I mean I feel like the performance is 376 00:26:14.240 --> 00:26:18.079 like so over the top but it works, it's so good, but I 377 00:26:18.200 --> 00:26:23.160 feel like it takes I actually had the opposite feeling you had, where it 378 00:26:23.279 --> 00:26:26.799 took me most of the movie to kind of buy him as like Okay, 379 00:26:27.640 --> 00:26:32.039 this is this guy, you know, and and to be like all right, 380 00:26:32.119 --> 00:26:34.640 let's just go with it. Whereas in the beginning, I don't know, 381 00:26:36.240 --> 00:26:38.640 like it didn't it kind of doesn't work for me in the beginning, 382 00:26:38.680 --> 00:26:41.720 and then it kind of and maybe on a rewatch, like and I mean 383 00:26:42.079 --> 00:26:47.000 this was a rewatch, but it was a rewatch decades later. Like I 384 00:26:47.119 --> 00:26:51.599 watched both movies in the theater, and then I had both on VHS, 385 00:26:52.039 --> 00:26:56.559 right, And but I watched the first movie a lot, and like maybe 386 00:26:56.640 --> 00:27:00.160 I rewatched the other one once, but like I I just didn't read this 387 00:27:00.319 --> 00:27:03.839 one, right, I just didn't. I watch this a bunch of times. 388 00:27:03.880 --> 00:27:07.400 So this is almost like a new viewing. So I know that at 389 00:27:07.480 --> 00:27:11.799 least once when the fourth movie was about to come out, we had a 390 00:27:11.920 --> 00:27:14.880 like marathon of the first three at my house that I think you were at. 391 00:27:15.279 --> 00:27:18.000 Yeah, I didn't watch them all though I've ever seen Batman forever in 392 00:27:18.079 --> 00:27:22.680 its entirety. For the rest, well, we're probably gonna change that, 393 00:27:25.160 --> 00:27:26.680 all right. So what about mister Max Shrek? What do we think of 394 00:27:26.759 --> 00:27:30.799 him? I mean, it's Christopher Walkin. They couldn't have gotten a better 395 00:27:30.920 --> 00:27:34.119 person to play that role. Between the three of them, there's not a 396 00:27:34.160 --> 00:27:37.160 piece of scenery that does not have teeth. Markets Yeah, it is all 397 00:27:37.440 --> 00:27:45.119 devowered, Like he feels over the top villainous, but like in a real 398 00:27:45.200 --> 00:27:49.440 world way. He's like, I'm doing this for my son Chip, you 399 00:27:49.519 --> 00:27:52.720 know. It's like I'm a good guy. It's for Chippers, you know. 400 00:27:53.119 --> 00:27:57.640 And like that scene of him like throwing out the presence to the people 401 00:27:57.720 --> 00:28:03.240 in the crowd, like felt very twenty seventeen to me. Yeah, Trump 402 00:28:03.319 --> 00:28:06.640 throwing paper towels. Yeah, and it's like, Okay, these aren't paper 403 00:28:06.720 --> 00:28:11.000 towels, and those aren't you know, people who just had a hurricane go 404 00:28:11.039 --> 00:28:12.400 through, but they live in Gotham, which I think is kind of like 405 00:28:12.440 --> 00:28:18.759 having a hurricane go through every day. Almost so many clown attacks, so 406 00:28:18.920 --> 00:28:22.519 many clown attacks. I mean, if we keep I feel like to me, 407 00:28:22.640 --> 00:28:26.119 I think over the top is kind of the definition of this movie. 408 00:28:26.240 --> 00:28:29.839 You know, it was like it Schumacher takes it into camp, which I 409 00:28:29.880 --> 00:28:33.359 think I used to hate but now have a real appreciation for this. Do 410 00:28:33.359 --> 00:28:37.640 you feel like it's just the like this feels much more like a comic book 411 00:28:37.720 --> 00:28:40.799 movie than the first one. Did you know, like even a little Kyles 412 00:28:40.880 --> 00:28:45.640 badass as she is, if this was like a serious movie I would be. 413 00:28:45.400 --> 00:28:48.599 I was like, no, come on, no human being talks like 414 00:28:48.680 --> 00:28:52.799 that. It's she's doing your catwoman voice. This is like camp noir. 415 00:28:55.680 --> 00:28:59.839 Maybe that's like why I love it, because there's something about the dark. 416 00:29:00.480 --> 00:29:04.680 The makeup, the music is one of my favorite scores of any movie ever. 417 00:29:06.359 --> 00:29:08.799 It's amazing. I just and the mood that it all sets when you 418 00:29:08.920 --> 00:29:11.799 put it together is like I'm like, I want to live in that Gotham 419 00:29:11.839 --> 00:29:17.519 because I think I would thrive. But that's my personality, right, Like 420 00:29:17.799 --> 00:29:22.640 in some ways, Ashley, did you see the TV show Gotham? No, 421 00:29:22.599 --> 00:29:29.519 Okay, this noir camp feels kind of similar. Like I think Gotham 422 00:29:29.559 --> 00:29:33.079 would also very much qualifies near camp, and this movie feels very similar in 423 00:29:33.160 --> 00:29:36.839 tone to that in terms of like it's timeless, everything is over the top, 424 00:29:37.039 --> 00:29:40.839 everything is there's a lot of exclamation marks in the script, you know, 425 00:29:41.119 --> 00:29:44.440 yeah, I think. I mean the complaints about the movie from like 426 00:29:44.640 --> 00:29:47.400 most of the people who made complaints at the time were like, it's too 427 00:29:47.559 --> 00:29:51.079 dark, it's too adult, it's too serious and brooding, and it's like, 428 00:29:52.160 --> 00:29:56.559 did we see the same movie? Like it is visually dark, Like 429 00:29:56.759 --> 00:30:00.240 some of the themes are dark, but they're definitely treated in like a a 430 00:30:00.359 --> 00:30:03.519 dark comedy kind of way. I think this one, the first one, 431 00:30:03.880 --> 00:30:07.400 is definitely the one that I like the most. This one feels the most 432 00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:11.160 tim Burton like, I feel like the first one was successful. So who's 433 00:30:11.200 --> 00:30:12.319 like, all right, I get to do this kind of how I want. 434 00:30:12.759 --> 00:30:17.559 Yeah, it just the Arctic like park, you know, the animal 435 00:30:17.720 --> 00:30:22.240 like everything just looks so all the penguins, yeah, penguins. Yeah. 436 00:30:22.440 --> 00:30:26.400 Well and this kids. I made this reference before, but I want to 437 00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:29.400 maybe she kind of bring it up the topic now. To me, one 438 00:30:29.400 --> 00:30:32.240 of the words I think of this movie is magical magical realism, you know, 439 00:30:32.359 --> 00:30:36.799 in terms of like there are things happening that don't make sense by the 440 00:30:36.920 --> 00:30:40.559 laws of our natural world, but that are also never like you know, 441 00:30:40.680 --> 00:30:44.160 in Marvel we talk about how there's always some sort of like line of pseudobabble 442 00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:48.519 science or mysticism and like starch. But here, like, you know, 443 00:30:48.799 --> 00:30:52.599 how is Penguin born the way he is? Right, it's a birth defect 444 00:30:52.839 --> 00:30:57.519 or like cat Woman. Catwoman, Yeah, like she she clearly gains powers 445 00:30:57.559 --> 00:31:00.880 of some extent, certainly her you know, she went through like she got 446 00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:06.119 like a neo level Matrix download of Marshal Law and you get nine lives. 447 00:31:06.400 --> 00:31:08.400 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, she died and then on died. 448 00:31:08.839 --> 00:31:12.640 She dies many times, yea many times. I think she has one life 449 00:31:12.720 --> 00:31:15.839 left at the end of I kept waiting for it to show that she had 450 00:31:15.880 --> 00:31:18.359 a bulletproof vest and was kidding, but no, she meant it about the 451 00:31:19.279 --> 00:31:22.720 she gets just like I got nine lives. How do I know this? 452 00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:27.160 Batman killed me? You killed me? Three left. I just brought that 453 00:31:27.240 --> 00:31:30.640 up now because to me, that's also very much a Tim Burton thing of 454 00:31:30.799 --> 00:31:33.680 like there's spookiness, there's weirdness, you don't understand it, don't ask questions 455 00:31:34.759 --> 00:31:38.680 that necessary or a lot more, and I don't. I don't mind it. 456 00:31:38.799 --> 00:31:45.920 But it's definitely different, very different. Agreed. Yeah, does the 457 00:31:45.960 --> 00:31:48.720 fact that we jumped off the topic so quickly say something about Max Shrek as 458 00:31:48.920 --> 00:31:52.920 like Christopher Walken is a great actor and he choose some scenery, but like 459 00:31:53.079 --> 00:31:57.480 it's basically just Lex Luthor. I mean even less than that. Max Trek 460 00:31:57.640 --> 00:32:00.920 is just a facilitator for moving the plot along, Like we need the guy, 461 00:32:01.039 --> 00:32:04.680 you know, he killed Selena Kyle and he just happens to be the 462 00:32:04.759 --> 00:32:10.079 guy who helps get Penguin in power and runs the second that things go sideways 463 00:32:10.160 --> 00:32:13.799 and that's where everything starts to go to shit. So he's really just kind 464 00:32:13.799 --> 00:32:17.519 of like the facilitator of all the bad things that are happening in the movie 465 00:32:17.680 --> 00:32:21.640 All Three, the Bruce Wayne thing with the power plant, he killed Selena 466 00:32:21.720 --> 00:32:24.880 Kyle and going with and then turning against the Penguin. We need, you 467 00:32:24.960 --> 00:32:29.640 know, if Batman's not going to do it, we need somebody to deal 468 00:32:29.680 --> 00:32:34.119 with these villains. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean to me, 469 00:32:34.240 --> 00:32:37.200 he's like the script doctor is like, how are we going to make all 470 00:32:37.279 --> 00:32:42.119 these things work? It's like Max Shreckls Yeah, And I mean I think 471 00:32:42.240 --> 00:32:45.839 he's you know, it's like a very simple character archetype, I think, 472 00:32:45.960 --> 00:32:52.759 executed flawlessly by Walkin, you know. And I mean I think he would 473 00:32:52.799 --> 00:32:54.279 make a great Legs Luthor too. You know. Yeah, I agreed. 474 00:32:54.720 --> 00:32:57.400 At first. I had to look up. I was like, is this 475 00:32:57.519 --> 00:33:00.559 stag like? Because he reminded me of lot like with the hair and stuff 476 00:33:00.599 --> 00:33:07.279 of that stag from uh usually from Wonder Woman. I think he also shows 477 00:33:07.319 --> 00:33:10.079 up in the Justice League and I made serious, but he's not. They 478 00:33:10.200 --> 00:33:15.160 just made up a new character, and I think it would have been a 479 00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:20.880 very unmemorable, kind of irrelevant filming character if it wasn't Christopher walking and giving. 480 00:33:22.079 --> 00:33:24.640 You know, it's like nothing he does is that interesting, but the 481 00:33:24.759 --> 00:33:30.160 way he does it exactly. Yes, he's generic evil capitalists seen the hundred 482 00:33:30.160 --> 00:33:34.519 different movies, but you're right, Yeah, And I think that's the genuinely 483 00:33:34.720 --> 00:33:37.920 scary In that scene with Selena Kapp before he pushes her out the window, 484 00:33:38.079 --> 00:33:42.759 like when he's in here for like, ugh, it's very tense. Yeah, 485 00:33:43.039 --> 00:33:45.240 absolutely, especially because one of the things I loved about that scene is 486 00:33:45.319 --> 00:33:47.559 and this kind of gets more into like the Gotham of it all that we'll 487 00:33:47.599 --> 00:33:52.759 get to later. I don't think there's a better way the filmmakers could have 488 00:33:52.799 --> 00:33:55.519 shown us this is a person who has zero thought that he will ever be 489 00:33:55.559 --> 00:34:00.640 held accountable for anything. Yeah, Because like if I'm a cop and I 490 00:34:00.759 --> 00:34:04.480 find the dead body and then I look up and I see a broken window 491 00:34:05.200 --> 00:34:07.559 and I figure out that this woman used to work for the guy with the 492 00:34:07.599 --> 00:34:12.960 broken window, I think I know where to start my investigation. She flat 493 00:34:13.000 --> 00:34:15.480 out says it. She's like, it's not like you can just kill me 494 00:34:15.599 --> 00:34:17.880 and He's like, actually, it's a lot like that. Yeah, yeah, 495 00:34:19.079 --> 00:34:23.920 exactly, Yeah, that shot. Why isn't that shot The way that 496 00:34:24.039 --> 00:34:30.119 they have her shadows bouncing off of like her face, the way like they 497 00:34:30.199 --> 00:34:34.360 had like a light of ring light and it makes like these cat kind of 498 00:34:34.480 --> 00:34:37.360 shadows over her eyes. Like I love stuff like that, which is all 499 00:34:37.480 --> 00:34:42.960 Like the cinematography in this movie is beautiful. It really is. It definitely 500 00:34:43.119 --> 00:34:46.000 is. Word. Let's talk about actually, you know, even kind of 501 00:34:46.039 --> 00:34:49.199 chomping at the bit to get more of this, Let's talk about Sleenna Kyle 502 00:34:49.320 --> 00:34:51.320 Catwoman. What do we love? What? What do you think of this? 503 00:34:51.519 --> 00:34:54.320 This this this portrayal of the character. I like, it's it's what 504 00:34:54.440 --> 00:34:58.320 I let I'm going to claim a new term, and it's called evil feminism. 505 00:34:58.559 --> 00:35:00.320 And I really love what she's doing with it because, like, you 506 00:35:00.440 --> 00:35:06.320 know, she's she's kind of tough. In the beginning, she's standing up 507 00:35:06.360 --> 00:35:10.840 to them, you know, she steals that uh shocker, what do you 508 00:35:10.920 --> 00:35:15.760 call them? Yeah, she steals that taser and like kind of tases the 509 00:35:15.800 --> 00:35:20.039 guy. So you get right away like she's tough, but like you're not 510 00:35:20.159 --> 00:35:23.960 super superhero or villain tough. And then she goes through this traumatic thing and 511 00:35:24.079 --> 00:35:29.440 decides like, I'm gonna come back and just wreck havoc on the people that 512 00:35:29.519 --> 00:35:30.559 did this to me, and I'm gonna get there anyway, I ken. 513 00:35:31.079 --> 00:35:34.920 But then she starts to kind of fall in love with Batman and uh and 514 00:35:35.039 --> 00:35:37.880 it gets in her head and it's just such a well, I don't know, 515 00:35:37.960 --> 00:35:42.440 Michelle Fiffor just did such a good job with this role. Yeah, 516 00:35:42.880 --> 00:35:50.360 I think, especially because she sells so well both She sells Selena Kyle both 517 00:35:50.480 --> 00:35:53.360 before and after the transfer. Yes, you know, I've seen other versions 518 00:35:53.480 --> 00:35:58.119 like this where like you look at the character before the thing happens and you're 519 00:35:58.159 --> 00:36:01.280 just like, I don't believe as a nebshy person who you look like a 520 00:36:01.360 --> 00:36:06.480 gorgeous person who hasn't brushed their hair right like, And I think, I 521 00:36:06.519 --> 00:36:09.679 mean part of it's the makeup and the costumes for sure, but she portrayed 522 00:36:10.480 --> 00:36:17.199 nebshy and shy and like Wallflower that gets walked over by everyone so well in 523 00:36:17.280 --> 00:36:22.119 a way that I felt made the transformation to Catwoman as ridiculous and ununderstandable as 524 00:36:22.119 --> 00:36:25.119 it is. Completely like it worked. You know. That's why I love 525 00:36:25.239 --> 00:36:30.079 the scene where like when we first see her and she's in this board meeting 526 00:36:30.119 --> 00:36:32.519 and like that's my job during the day, Like I'm the goat one going 527 00:36:32.599 --> 00:36:37.800 in giving coffee to all of the people at work, Like that is daily 528 00:36:37.880 --> 00:36:40.360 when we have meetings. That is my job to in the middle be like, 529 00:36:40.559 --> 00:36:45.679 well, I have an idea. There's just something about that scene I 530 00:36:45.880 --> 00:36:49.639 love so much as because like I sometimes think, like at my work, 531 00:36:49.719 --> 00:36:52.280 like I'm like, how do I know the right thing to do? And 532 00:36:52.400 --> 00:36:54.000 you are all sitting here like payroll this and that, Like I know the 533 00:36:54.079 --> 00:36:58.320 right thing to do, but none of you do, but you're not gonna 534 00:36:58.320 --> 00:37:01.440 listen to me. So even the fact that like this meek character did that 535 00:37:01.679 --> 00:37:05.000 show it, Like, I don't know, there's just something. There's something 536 00:37:05.039 --> 00:37:08.960 about all the little things she does in this movie that as a young girl 537 00:37:09.079 --> 00:37:14.760 kind of resonated with me and sticks with me as throughout my adulthood. Yeah. 538 00:37:15.039 --> 00:37:16.880 I mean you probably see the mistakes they make over and over and over 539 00:37:16.960 --> 00:37:21.400 and they can't see them because they're making them, and like I think that's 540 00:37:21.400 --> 00:37:23.440 definitely a thing a lot of the time, you know, But I feel 541 00:37:23.480 --> 00:37:30.400 like that scene does sell her as kind of someone who's going to evolve into 542 00:37:30.480 --> 00:37:34.000 Catwoman. M yeah, I do feel though kind of in this movie like 543 00:37:34.039 --> 00:37:37.519 there is no Selena Kyle, only Catwoman, Like yeah, like once she 544 00:37:37.679 --> 00:37:44.559 becomes cat, Like, it's very different from most of the other Catwoman's that 545 00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:51.360 I am familiar with and enjoy where Selena Kyle is a person who dresses up 546 00:37:51.400 --> 00:37:54.280 as Catwoman and like Catwoman is or alter ego. But like there isn't this 547 00:37:54.480 --> 00:38:00.400 like disconnect between those, right, It's not like this felt very much like 548 00:38:00.800 --> 00:38:05.639 you know, Patty Jenkins and I think Jeff John's right wrote the script to 549 00:38:05.679 --> 00:38:08.039 Wonder Woman eighty four, and it feels like they just saw this and then 550 00:38:08.039 --> 00:38:13.679 they're like, oh, let's capture that and turn her into you know what's 551 00:38:13.719 --> 00:38:17.719 her name? Yeah yeah, And but here it's you know, done better, 552 00:38:17.840 --> 00:38:22.880 and it's done thirty almost years earlier, which feels like some of the 553 00:38:22.039 --> 00:38:28.480 things that you do, like I feel don't I don't know, like that 554 00:38:28.679 --> 00:38:31.920 that board meeting, I feel like that plays better then than it does now, 555 00:38:32.480 --> 00:38:37.000 you know, even if it's like unfortunately still a relatable moment, you 556 00:38:37.079 --> 00:38:40.280 know, But just like that, also in this Gotham that feels kind of 557 00:38:40.400 --> 00:38:44.239 like it's fifties ish, you know, it feels like, well, yeah, 558 00:38:44.719 --> 00:38:47.920 you know. That's My Other favorite scene with her is the Masquerade Ball 559 00:38:50.119 --> 00:38:52.719 when they're dancing and then she's just like in the middle of the dance floor 560 00:38:52.880 --> 00:38:55.679 just pulls out the gun like I'm gonna kill him, and he's like, 561 00:38:55.960 --> 00:38:59.679 what are you doing and she's just got that. She's like, I don't 562 00:38:59.719 --> 00:39:05.800 know, no, I just and then they like have the reveal the missiletoe 563 00:39:05.960 --> 00:39:08.559 thing and they're like, uh oh, or do we start fighting now? 564 00:39:08.840 --> 00:39:14.159 And I just I absolutely love that scene. And I feel like that's kind 565 00:39:14.199 --> 00:39:17.400 of the fight between Catwoman and Selena Kyle in that scene. Okay, yeah, 566 00:39:17.960 --> 00:39:21.400 that's the scene where they figure out who each other, Like, I 567 00:39:21.719 --> 00:39:24.679 think that is one of my favorite. Like, actually, this is funny 568 00:39:24.679 --> 00:39:31.239 because my two favorite moments where two people realize who each other's alternate identity is 569 00:39:31.920 --> 00:39:37.519 both involved Michael Keaton because it's it's this it's this moment, yeah, and 570 00:39:37.599 --> 00:39:40.280 that it's him and Tom Holland in the car where they figure out that there 571 00:39:40.320 --> 00:39:44.440 Spider Man in Vulture. It's like it's totally different, but I remember I 572 00:39:44.480 --> 00:39:47.800 was like, he's done this twice. This is so good. I think 573 00:39:47.840 --> 00:39:51.360 one of the things that Catwoman that I was noticing and Paul wondering, this 574 00:39:51.360 --> 00:39:55.199 is kind of what you're talking about about how different it is. She's always 575 00:39:55.280 --> 00:40:00.519 flirting with Batman, and there's sometimes stories where they get together, but she's 576 00:40:00.719 --> 00:40:05.320 she is a she's a member of the Rogues Gallery. She does villainous things, 577 00:40:05.800 --> 00:40:10.840 and she's not often like earth A Kit was sexy as hell and wonderful, 578 00:40:10.920 --> 00:40:15.480 but she wasn't like she wasn't like anti hero levels of like righteous revenge 579 00:40:15.519 --> 00:40:19.519 that she's getting. She just wanted to steal stuff and hurt people along the 580 00:40:19.559 --> 00:40:27.119 way. And I think here and also to some extent with in Batman Forever, 581 00:40:27.199 --> 00:40:30.400 although there at least she starts out as a burglar. It's something like 582 00:40:30.679 --> 00:40:37.599 when you have her on screen in the Dark Knight, The Dark Knight, 583 00:40:37.760 --> 00:40:45.679 Oh God, yeah, uh yeah. In the in the Dark Knight Rises 584 00:40:45.719 --> 00:40:49.280 as well, they move her from being a villain to an anti hero, 585 00:40:49.679 --> 00:40:53.039 you know, where It's like she's she has she wants to do things that 586 00:40:53.119 --> 00:40:57.239 Batman wants to stop, but she also like we us the audience, are 587 00:40:57.280 --> 00:41:00.039 very sympathetic towards her. And I don't think it's wrong with that portrayal. 588 00:41:00.119 --> 00:41:04.159 I just I think it's kind of interesting that they shy away from the like 589 00:41:05.079 --> 00:41:07.320 no, I mean, she maybe not as bad as as jokers. She 590 00:41:07.360 --> 00:41:09.519 doesn't want to kill people, but like she's just robbing people to make herself 591 00:41:09.639 --> 00:41:14.000 rich, Like she's not, you know, on this great feminist crusade. 592 00:41:14.039 --> 00:41:16.840 The way that this character is, she tells to be like a robin Hood 593 00:41:17.039 --> 00:41:21.880 type thing, like she steals for herself, but then she also like helps 594 00:41:21.960 --> 00:41:25.280 the others or yeah, yeah, I think some versions a lot of Catwoman 595 00:41:25.400 --> 00:41:31.639 portrayals she is a little bit of a robin Hood character. Like she's often 596 00:41:32.000 --> 00:41:37.400 like she wants the jewels for herself, but also like she's usually got like 597 00:41:37.519 --> 00:41:40.239 some ward or something. She's got a bunch of cats she's feeding. Like 598 00:41:40.920 --> 00:41:45.599 I think she is very much an anti hero, or maybe she's an anti 599 00:41:45.719 --> 00:41:50.199 villain. I'm not sure, but like, yeah, you know, she's 600 00:41:50.599 --> 00:41:53.599 It's kind of like the scene where she saves the chick from getting robbed or 601 00:41:53.679 --> 00:41:58.440 whatever was happening there and then she grabs her face, And I love this 602 00:41:58.519 --> 00:42:01.360 scene because she's like, you know, so easy to just scream for someone 603 00:42:01.440 --> 00:42:06.800 to come save you, like tough nups save yourself, and that like I 604 00:42:07.000 --> 00:42:12.000 can get that like lack of empathy for people who seem weaker. But you 605 00:42:12.119 --> 00:42:14.639 know, I feel like I'm working through my own stuff here right now. 606 00:42:15.800 --> 00:42:19.440 But like I totally get that scene, Like she felt like a victim her 607 00:42:19.480 --> 00:42:22.280 whole life, so now she's this new life. You know, when she 608 00:42:22.440 --> 00:42:24.760 sees that other person, she saves her, but she's also like, you 609 00:42:24.840 --> 00:42:30.039 know, some Batman's not always gonna come save you. Yeah, get it, 610 00:42:30.119 --> 00:42:32.039 which very pointed for a person who Batman came and saved, Like that 611 00:42:32.159 --> 00:42:35.599 was a little bit of projection in that moment. Yeah, but yeah, 612 00:42:35.639 --> 00:42:37.000 no, but I think it was like today. I think if I watched 613 00:42:37.039 --> 00:42:39.599 that, I'd be like, oh, victim blaming much? Oh yeah, 614 00:42:39.639 --> 00:42:44.119 by time idea, yeah, yeah, there was a little sort of unsavoriness 615 00:42:44.199 --> 00:42:47.800 to that, but at the same time like, yeah, but at the 616 00:42:47.880 --> 00:42:51.239 time this is made and even more like in the fifties idea, Yeah, 617 00:42:51.239 --> 00:42:53.599 I totally get that idea of like, look, I can protect myself. 618 00:42:53.639 --> 00:42:58.079 You don't have to just be away in the corner. I have a fun 619 00:42:58.199 --> 00:43:01.320 fact that scene where she takes the man's heads off with the whip, Yes, 620 00:43:01.599 --> 00:43:06.280 she did that in one take and that was actually Michelle Viper. Wow. 621 00:43:06.800 --> 00:43:09.920 And it's on YouTube, the whole crew, and everybody's just clap clapping, 622 00:43:10.199 --> 00:43:15.360 like yeah, first take. Yeah, actually her, I mean she 623 00:43:15.599 --> 00:43:22.639 she Yeah, she trained hard for the role whip instructor. I think she 624 00:43:22.880 --> 00:43:27.400 like cut her chin or something. She's very good. Yeah, well, 625 00:43:27.519 --> 00:43:31.400 and just back to the whole like where she's victim. Like how much of 626 00:43:32.039 --> 00:43:37.599 Batman sixty six have you seen, Paul? I watched most of the episodes 627 00:43:37.639 --> 00:43:39.800 when I was a kid, like on TV. Okay, I haven't deliberately, 628 00:43:40.239 --> 00:43:45.639 I haven't rewatched it in decades. Yeah, I'm wondering. And this 629 00:43:45.719 --> 00:43:47.960 is the thing I might bring on Jessica Plumber for later episode to get into 630 00:43:49.039 --> 00:43:51.440 because she has a real knowledge, like a history of comic books and she 631 00:43:51.559 --> 00:43:54.159 loves the Catwoman character. I do wonder how much of that kind of like 632 00:43:54.360 --> 00:44:00.519 more like she has sympathetic goals starts with this movie or starts around or maybe 633 00:44:00.679 --> 00:44:05.400 because like earth a Kit, I think was very much just villain like. 634 00:44:05.880 --> 00:44:09.400 And but you're right, like I think in the Batman TV, in the 635 00:44:09.400 --> 00:44:14.199 Batman the Animate series, she's often much more sympathetic. Have you guys seen 636 00:44:14.239 --> 00:44:17.400 the TV show Harley Quinn. Yeah, in that one, she's much more 637 00:44:17.480 --> 00:44:21.159 back to just being like I just want to steal stuff, like I'm not 638 00:44:21.280 --> 00:44:24.519 trying to be on some crusade. And I remember thinking like, this is 639 00:44:24.519 --> 00:44:28.440 such an interesting new, not new take on the character, but like a 640 00:44:29.440 --> 00:44:30.599 a take I haven't seen in the character for a long time, right, 641 00:44:31.639 --> 00:44:36.599 Yeah, I mean she's definitely a character who can play different roles in different 642 00:44:36.639 --> 00:44:39.280 stories, and here, you know, she she feels a little more huntress 643 00:44:39.320 --> 00:44:44.239 to me here where I feel like she's not a villain, but she's an 644 00:44:44.280 --> 00:44:47.559 antagonist and she's doing something that like maybe we're not supposed to approve of. 645 00:44:47.760 --> 00:44:52.599 But it's like, I don't know if you want to kill someone who killed 646 00:44:52.679 --> 00:44:59.719 you already and they're like a billionaire who's scrolling over the city like she. 647 00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:01.960 I love that she killed him herself, and I love the way that she 648 00:45:02.079 --> 00:45:06.280 did it, But she didn't know about the ice princess stuff. She was 649 00:45:06.360 --> 00:45:07.760 like, you said, you weren't going to kill a yeah you know, 650 00:45:07.880 --> 00:45:12.159 so she was not privy to that information that that was going to happen. 651 00:45:12.199 --> 00:45:15.360 They were just supposed to kill Batman, which she was okay with, right 652 00:45:15.519 --> 00:45:19.920 right, that's true? Right? Well, yeah, I love a complicated 653 00:45:20.000 --> 00:45:22.480 character. Oh no, what it really is. I mean, there's so 654 00:45:22.559 --> 00:45:25.760 much depth to her, and it's one of my favorite Batman stories is Mask 655 00:45:25.840 --> 00:45:30.599 of the Phantasm, which in some ways is a very similar dynamic in that 656 00:45:30.679 --> 00:45:36.280 he has a romantic interest in someone who is like Batman, but then like 657 00:45:36.559 --> 00:45:38.960 clearly steps over that line from justice to vengeance, you know. And I 658 00:45:39.000 --> 00:45:42.480 think there's a little bit of that same thing here with him being like, 659 00:45:42.719 --> 00:45:44.880 yeah, Max Shrek is kind of terrible. We should take him down, 660 00:45:44.960 --> 00:45:49.360 but just like assassinating him maybe not so much, even though he does kill 661 00:45:49.360 --> 00:45:52.599 people. I mean that it gets there's an incoherence. I think, Paul 662 00:45:52.719 --> 00:45:58.599 was the word you used that I think is pretty appropriate here. But there 663 00:45:58.679 --> 00:46:01.760 is one Max Shrek who actually that I just wanted to throw in, which 664 00:46:01.920 --> 00:46:07.480 was one can never have too much power, And yeah, I felt like 665 00:46:07.559 --> 00:46:09.840 that sort of summed up not just this character, but like, you know, 666 00:46:10.039 --> 00:46:15.280 all the characters and real life humans who this character represents. It's like, 667 00:46:15.360 --> 00:46:17.599 yeah, yeah, I mean, well when it comes up to the 668 00:46:17.639 --> 00:46:22.800 expensive power for others, yeah yeah you can. Yeah. I think you 669 00:46:22.920 --> 00:46:25.679 know. One other just kind of cool thing about Selena Kyle I wanted to 670 00:46:25.719 --> 00:46:28.719 mention. I think I think actually you made a kind of paffing reference has 671 00:46:28.760 --> 00:46:31.360 been one of the like really, uh, let me say one of just 672 00:46:31.559 --> 00:46:36.519 a cool thing about Selena Kyle Catwoman that actually you brought up. The whole 673 00:46:36.639 --> 00:46:38.920 movie feels like almost black and white, you know, especially like the scenes 674 00:46:39.480 --> 00:46:43.199 in the Underground, Like the way it's lit, it looks black and white, 675 00:46:44.039 --> 00:46:49.119 and so in that, like Gotham is almost monochromatic. The aggressive bubblegum 676 00:46:49.280 --> 00:46:53.679 pink of everything in Selena Kyle's apartment is just so refreshing. So everything's black 677 00:46:53.679 --> 00:46:58.679 and white. But she has that blue eyeshadow and the red lipstick and it 678 00:46:58.840 --> 00:47:02.760 is just dream against her alabaster skin and black. And I remember, like 679 00:47:04.280 --> 00:47:07.039 that's like where my passion for blue eyeshad Okay, Like I just was like, 680 00:47:07.320 --> 00:47:14.519 that didn't look great on me. Looked like her at the end of 681 00:47:14.559 --> 00:47:16.639 the movie when she pulls it up because he is Batman, you idiot, 682 00:47:16.840 --> 00:47:21.199 She's just got like the clockwork orange going on. I'm like, yes, 683 00:47:21.440 --> 00:47:24.440 that's how I look like at the end of Every Party Night. Such a 684 00:47:24.480 --> 00:47:30.599 good scene. Backing up to Penguin, also, for one second, the 685 00:47:30.840 --> 00:47:35.039 Penguin's henchmen are all clowns. Or at least a lot of them are, 686 00:47:35.159 --> 00:47:40.119 right, and I I wasn't sure. Was that like I don't remember Penguin 687 00:47:40.199 --> 00:47:45.639 having a kind of like a circus, the pseudo Joker circus. Feel like, 688 00:47:45.480 --> 00:47:47.840 am I just forgetting that? Or was that supposed to be? Like, 689 00:47:49.360 --> 00:47:51.679 well, the Joker was successful, so maybe I'm gonna do the same 690 00:47:51.760 --> 00:47:54.079 shtick or just the filmmakers were like, we just need more killer clowns because 691 00:47:54.079 --> 00:47:59.320 people are afraid of them and Joker. Yeah, why was Penguin said? 692 00:47:59.480 --> 00:48:02.559 I think rejects like he collects, you know, people who were like rejected, 693 00:48:04.519 --> 00:48:08.719 right, I mean, after after Joker dies, like there's a bunch 694 00:48:08.760 --> 00:48:15.840 of out of work clown terrorists and you know, maybe he made them dress 695 00:48:15.960 --> 00:48:19.079 up like that. I'm not sure, but my favorite of them is the 696 00:48:19.320 --> 00:48:22.559 blind with the little dog. She was the best. She didn't do anything, 697 00:48:22.639 --> 00:48:28.159 she was just there. Oh was she the narrator the the Penguins? 698 00:48:28.280 --> 00:48:34.119 Yeah, one minute away from Penguins? One minute away? Yeah? Yeah, 699 00:48:34.159 --> 00:48:37.239 yeah, that was like I thought, a nice way to put exposition 700 00:48:38.079 --> 00:48:42.000 in y you know, the end, Like usually it feels so awkward and 701 00:48:42.119 --> 00:48:45.320 forced. Here it was awkward, like deliberately like it was like this is 702 00:48:45.519 --> 00:48:53.679 just it fit with the surreal sort of ye you know, the mind controlled 703 00:48:53.719 --> 00:48:58.360 penguins by a little thing on their heads that's never explained in any way, 704 00:48:58.440 --> 00:49:05.159 shape or feeling exactly follow the penguin henchmen are typically like are kind of inconsistent, 705 00:49:05.519 --> 00:49:07.639 like, yeah, you know, they all have henchmen. I feel 706 00:49:07.719 --> 00:49:10.880 like, yeah, everybody's got henchmen, right, Penguin definitely has henchmen, 707 00:49:10.920 --> 00:49:15.360 but sometimes they're more like in business suits and sometimes they're more in clown outfits. 708 00:49:15.400 --> 00:49:19.519 I'm like, what's the difference, you know, it's just an aesthetic 709 00:49:19.639 --> 00:49:23.719 choice. It's I really liked all of his different umbrellas, all the weird 710 00:49:23.920 --> 00:49:29.320 things. You have the hypnotized one, you got the squeaky duck one, 711 00:49:29.480 --> 00:49:31.960 you got the machine gun one, my personal favorite, you got the one 712 00:49:32.000 --> 00:49:37.159 that fly away my pretty you know, you've got the go to Kitty Heaven 713 00:49:38.559 --> 00:49:44.920 and at the end he chooses the wrong I love that scene so much, 714 00:49:45.760 --> 00:49:49.400 and then the penguins come out and they're like they push him in. I 715 00:49:49.480 --> 00:49:52.119 don't know, it doesn't make sense. It's love it. Yeah, I 716 00:49:52.280 --> 00:50:01.159 just love it so much. Destinated a cool drink of ice water so good. 717 00:50:01.800 --> 00:50:07.320 I also just have to say again with a little exposition, Penguin is 718 00:50:07.440 --> 00:50:12.920 thirty three years old in this movie allegedly, and that's I mean, granted, 719 00:50:12.960 --> 00:50:15.800 he's born with flippers, so maybe I shouldn't question his aging process. 720 00:50:15.920 --> 00:50:19.199 But like Danny DeVito was forty five at the time the movie was made, 721 00:50:19.239 --> 00:50:22.559 and he does not look like he's in his therapies. That makeup, like 722 00:50:22.039 --> 00:50:25.840 the makeup, the way they did it, like everything is just really it's 723 00:50:27.039 --> 00:50:30.519 very well done. It really is for the time, and everything, like 724 00:50:30.599 --> 00:50:35.559 I don't know, it is great. It reminds me of the uh Tim 725 00:50:35.599 --> 00:50:38.559 Burton, like the when Geena Davis and what's his face and Beetle Juice when 726 00:50:38.559 --> 00:50:43.880 they pull their monster face, Like his whole nose just looks like that monster 727 00:50:44.000 --> 00:50:49.000 face from Beetlejuice. That's fair. So the last thing I wanted to really 728 00:50:49.039 --> 00:50:52.039 bring up was Gotham itself. We've talked about, how you know, Paul, 729 00:50:52.039 --> 00:50:53.079 you said, like it it's like a hurricane hits every day and it's 730 00:50:53.119 --> 00:50:57.519 so black and white. I want to live there. The thing that I 731 00:50:57.559 --> 00:51:00.199 think I missed about it the first time and when I was younger, Now 732 00:51:00.239 --> 00:51:04.000 this time I really got was I feel like there's kind of you know, 733 00:51:04.039 --> 00:51:07.119 the first movie is kind of a comment on celebrity culture in terms of makeup 734 00:51:07.199 --> 00:51:09.320 and like belief of who's beautiful and stuff. Here, I feel like with 735 00:51:09.400 --> 00:51:14.559 the whole Penguin story, there's really kind of a comment being made about like 736 00:51:15.079 --> 00:51:21.679 how if the people who are thought to be important say this person's good and 737 00:51:22.199 --> 00:51:24.920 wonderful and trustworthy, that the people in the media and the press will just 738 00:51:24.960 --> 00:51:28.840 eat it up. You know. Yeah, like the whole scene of like 739 00:51:29.599 --> 00:51:34.320 him becoming this hero figure when he's so clearly not or even just like, 740 00:51:34.440 --> 00:51:37.760 you know, everyone's so excited to help run his political campaign and he bites 741 00:51:37.800 --> 00:51:39.960 someone's nose off, and they're still just like cool, let's do it. 742 00:51:40.159 --> 00:51:45.239 Like it doesn't sound like anything that happens nowadays, right, Yeah, I 743 00:51:45.320 --> 00:51:49.719 mean ten years ago, I would have said this is ridiculous satire. Today 744 00:51:49.719 --> 00:51:51.760 I'm like, oh, yeah, I know that kind of had a point. 745 00:51:52.039 --> 00:51:55.360 Will look at how fast everyone turned on Batman, like what immediately? 746 00:51:59.760 --> 00:52:05.239 Its pretty telling. Yeah, there's definitely an interesting dynamic there. Yeah. 747 00:52:05.719 --> 00:52:09.599 So in terms of the look and feel of Gotham in this one, like 748 00:52:09.679 --> 00:52:15.920 I still enjoy the aesthetic and the like the lighting and the cinematography are amazing. 749 00:52:15.960 --> 00:52:20.000 Snowy and Christmas, yeah, the snowy this, you know, like 750 00:52:20.239 --> 00:52:22.719 having a season there. I think it's really cool. There's a there's an 751 00:52:22.719 --> 00:52:27.719 animated series, well series, it's two movies. It's like Part one and 752 00:52:27.760 --> 00:52:30.440 part two, The Long Halloween, and it goes through like a year basically, 753 00:52:30.559 --> 00:52:34.639 and so you see all the seasons in Gotham and that you know that 754 00:52:34.800 --> 00:52:42.079 that's aspects really cool. But here the only thing that Gotham felt kind of 755 00:52:42.199 --> 00:52:45.559 smaller to me than the first one and like a little bit less lived in, 756 00:52:46.159 --> 00:52:51.039 Like I think something about having a reporter and the reporters and whatever and 757 00:52:51.119 --> 00:52:54.760 the party, like it felt a little bit more like I felt like I 758 00:52:54.800 --> 00:53:00.639 had a little better idea of like what goes on in Gotham like most of 759 00:53:00.679 --> 00:53:04.079 the time, whereas here it felt like it really was mostly focused on this 760 00:53:04.199 --> 00:53:07.000 small number of characters. I think part of that might be that the original 761 00:53:07.199 --> 00:53:13.320 was filmed in in England and then they filmed this in the US, so 762 00:53:13.400 --> 00:53:16.320 they didn't necessarily use I mean, I think they stored all the sets for 763 00:53:16.400 --> 00:53:22.280 a long time or something, but like studio and like it looks very not 764 00:53:22.480 --> 00:53:27.400 cgi but whatever they would do. I mean, it's technically Rockefeller, you 765 00:53:27.480 --> 00:53:34.000 know, it looks like sets as opposed to like location shots. So I 766 00:53:34.119 --> 00:53:37.079 just feel like Gotham here doesn't breathe quite as much, and maybe he gets 767 00:53:37.079 --> 00:53:42.480 it the Joel Schumacher ones, Ye, it's like this, like this dancing 768 00:53:42.599 --> 00:53:45.920 box from movie to movie. But part part of it, I think is 769 00:53:46.000 --> 00:53:49.559 you kind of brought this up. It feels very surreal, you know, 770 00:53:49.760 --> 00:53:52.360 and like, I'm sure there's better movie making terms for this, but like, 771 00:53:52.480 --> 00:53:55.639 to me, this is a huge range, but I'm gonna kind of 772 00:53:55.639 --> 00:53:59.920 put it into two binaries. I feel like there's a move some movies all 773 00:54:00.800 --> 00:54:04.440 here are things that are happening that you might see with your own eyes, 774 00:54:04.760 --> 00:54:07.840 and we're just pointing a camera at it so you can see the people doing 775 00:54:07.920 --> 00:54:12.280 the things. And then there's other movies where it's like we're gonna make the 776 00:54:12.440 --> 00:54:16.360 lighting and the sets and the camera angles tell the story as much as it 777 00:54:16.559 --> 00:54:21.320 and so like we're not saying that this looks like a real life thing you 778 00:54:21.320 --> 00:54:24.159 would see. It is meant to be surreal. It's meant to be artistic 779 00:54:24.239 --> 00:54:28.039 license and things like that. And I feel like that that that to me, 780 00:54:28.159 --> 00:54:30.119 is exactly what Gotham was, you know what it is. And I 781 00:54:30.239 --> 00:54:32.280 liked a lot of that, but I did feel like it was a little 782 00:54:32.400 --> 00:54:37.960 like having someone tell Burton to maybe be eighty percent instead of one hundred percent. 783 00:54:37.000 --> 00:54:40.719 To Burton is not a bad thing. Yes, this definitely felt like 784 00:54:40.760 --> 00:54:44.760 that thing of like, all right, the editors are no longer worried about 785 00:54:44.760 --> 00:54:46.480 you. You get to do your own thing, and right, maybe those 786 00:54:46.559 --> 00:54:50.400 editors had an idea. And to me, it's not like having twenty percent 787 00:54:50.480 --> 00:54:53.639 less Burton, it's having twenty percent of other stuff that then the very burtany 788 00:54:53.679 --> 00:54:58.039 Burton stuff contrasts with so you get like a little more contrasts. So, 789 00:54:58.360 --> 00:55:00.840 you know, I feel like there are a lot fewer daily light scenes here. 790 00:55:00.440 --> 00:55:05.199 And one of the things I like about daytime scenes in an otherwise dark 791 00:55:05.280 --> 00:55:09.239 movie is then the darkness is darker. Yet for them, that's every time 792 00:55:09.320 --> 00:55:13.920 they show Selena Kyle in the day after she becomes Catwolman, they just put 793 00:55:14.000 --> 00:55:20.480 more and more black makeup under her eye. Yeah, so true. I 794 00:55:20.559 --> 00:55:23.320 will say one thing I really liked in terms of the Batman story is, 795 00:55:24.280 --> 00:55:29.400 you know, it's fairly calmon, especially in this era. For like every 796 00:55:29.639 --> 00:55:34.039 every movie, the male lead has a different love interest, and normally it's 797 00:55:34.159 --> 00:55:36.800 like you know, James Bond movies, I think the King of this, 798 00:55:36.960 --> 00:55:39.280 but a lot of them, like you just completely forget that the last love 799 00:55:39.320 --> 00:55:43.960 interest ever exists, right. I kind of liked that not only does he 800 00:55:44.119 --> 00:55:46.920 mention Ricky Vail, but kind of continuing what we were talking about before in 801 00:55:46.920 --> 00:55:51.199 the last one Paul about him being kind of awkward. He does that thing 802 00:55:51.239 --> 00:55:53.320 you're never supposed to do on an early date of like bringing up his ex 803 00:55:53.559 --> 00:55:58.000 talking about his acts like she did ask no, no, he did bring 804 00:55:58.039 --> 00:56:01.039 it up, right. Yeah, but like even if she don't have to 805 00:56:01.119 --> 00:56:05.480 go into it too much, Yeah, she kind of left me a broken 806 00:56:05.559 --> 00:56:07.960 man and I don't really know what I'm doing anymore. And then this whole 807 00:56:08.000 --> 00:56:12.199 thing about like well it was the true truths and she couldn't reckon Like yeah, 808 00:56:12.440 --> 00:56:15.159 I was like, dude, don't do that. Of course this version 809 00:56:15.199 --> 00:56:17.599 of Bruce would do that, you know, And I just just for the 810 00:56:17.679 --> 00:56:21.480 movie to acknowledge that so much. I was like, Okay, that's kind 811 00:56:21.519 --> 00:56:23.360 of cool. You don't see that very often. She liked it, right 812 00:56:23.519 --> 00:56:29.360 exactly, like he's still so awkward, right, like around women in terms 813 00:56:29.400 --> 00:56:34.119 of like trying like that he's interested in and then he's also so bad at 814 00:56:34.159 --> 00:56:37.159 lying it's a business trip. Yeah. Yeah, No, I mean she 815 00:56:37.199 --> 00:56:40.280 wasn't every matter, but I was like, oh, I've got to go 816 00:56:40.360 --> 00:56:44.119 on a business trip. Yeah, yeah, business trip, and it's like 817 00:56:44.199 --> 00:56:46.119 that's the only thing he can think of, even though apparently he never goes 818 00:56:46.159 --> 00:56:49.440 on business trips. He does all his business in Gotham, But like, 819 00:56:50.239 --> 00:56:53.519 yeah, I enjoyed that awkwardness, and I think what she liked about him 820 00:56:54.079 --> 00:56:59.800 was that he actually was awkward and like honest, you know, and that's 821 00:57:00.039 --> 00:57:01.719 you know what a lot of the advice that people give, oh don't do 822 00:57:01.840 --> 00:57:05.360 this, don't do that, it's like, yeah, I don't know. 823 00:57:05.480 --> 00:57:08.280 I don't think it's necessarily particularly good advice, especially if you're trying to look 824 00:57:08.320 --> 00:57:12.519 for someone that you want to like forge a long term connection with. Like 825 00:57:13.000 --> 00:57:15.360 yeah, he's like, you're kind of dark. Do you want to have 826 00:57:15.440 --> 00:57:20.599 dinner? Right? Exactly? Yeah. I mean like they both like that 827 00:57:20.719 --> 00:57:24.360 about each other. He's miles away from being smooth, and I think she 828 00:57:24.639 --> 00:57:29.480 likes, like Max is smooth. She've seen that fakery and she likes that. 829 00:57:29.559 --> 00:57:31.079 I think a lot about it, but it's just like, like Christian 830 00:57:31.159 --> 00:57:35.280 Bale Batman would never in a million years do this, you know, right? 831 00:57:35.639 --> 00:57:38.760 No, yeah, that also an outcnimated series Batman, I think, 832 00:57:39.559 --> 00:57:43.400 yeah, yeah, in both of those. Also, I think Alfred would 833 00:57:43.440 --> 00:57:46.679 would never would not a cover for him as well, right, like oh 834 00:57:46.800 --> 00:57:51.639 yeah, business trip of course, you know, like's like, oh, 835 00:57:51.760 --> 00:57:54.800 let me show you the bat Cave. I didn't let Vicky bail down in 836 00:57:54.960 --> 00:58:00.400 the bat Cave, right. I love Alfred so much though, like the 837 00:58:00.480 --> 00:58:05.280 Burton Alfred is just like he's my favorite. He's so adorable. Yeah, 838 00:58:05.320 --> 00:58:09.320 he might be the least helpful, but he definitely looks like Alfred though. 839 00:58:09.320 --> 00:58:12.760 I also thought it was interesting that they let him be so very wrong, 840 00:58:13.239 --> 00:58:15.000 like because you were saying, maybe, yeah, this was me as well. 841 00:58:15.039 --> 00:58:17.840 But he gets pulled in by by Penguin at first, like he's telling 842 00:58:17.880 --> 00:58:22.320 Michael Alfred, yeah yeah, he's telling Bruce Wayne like no, just just 843 00:58:22.519 --> 00:58:23.960 let people be happy, you know. So I thought that was kind of 844 00:58:23.960 --> 00:58:29.480 interesting for sure. All Right, Well, so let's kind of the wrap 845 00:58:29.599 --> 00:58:32.079 up question I tend to ask now, is the is this your Batman? 846 00:58:32.559 --> 00:58:36.679 Uh? And since there's not much a Batman. I'm gonna ask you just 847 00:58:37.000 --> 00:58:38.920 for is this your Batman? Is this your Penguin? Is this your cat 848 00:58:38.960 --> 00:58:42.840 Woman? Is this your Gotham? Okay, do you want me to go 849 00:58:42.920 --> 00:58:46.639 first? Yeah it is. Oh, it is my Catwoman. It is 850 00:58:46.800 --> 00:58:50.920 my Penguin. But I don't watch all the animated stuff, so don't judge 851 00:58:50.960 --> 00:58:54.880 me, and we'll see what what's his face does Colin Firth? It's not 852 00:58:55.079 --> 00:59:00.559 my Batman. And I have to say, I really like I do like 853 00:59:00.679 --> 00:59:06.559 the Gotham, but that's just because I like magical whatever you were saying. 854 00:59:07.239 --> 00:59:12.559 Yeah, the Batman and like the the Nolan Batman's the Gotham's cool, but 855 00:59:12.639 --> 00:59:17.719 it's just it's every city put together, right. Yeah. Yeah, this 856 00:59:17.920 --> 00:59:22.880 Gotham visually is very much my Gotham, although I feel like it's very similar 857 00:59:22.960 --> 00:59:25.559 to the first one, and I liked the first one a little better in 858 00:59:25.639 --> 00:59:29.960 that regard, but this one, you know, I mean it's beautiful. 859 00:59:30.079 --> 00:59:35.239 You know, it's beautiful in this like broken down, dark old city kind 860 00:59:35.280 --> 00:59:37.840 of way that like I grew up in Hell's Kitchen, Like yeah, like 861 00:59:37.960 --> 00:59:44.599 I would also live there in you know exactly, Catwoman. I really enjoy 862 00:59:44.719 --> 00:59:47.639 this cat Woman, she's not the Catwoman. That's like my first choice of 863 00:59:47.800 --> 00:59:52.360 like what to see in a Catwoman if she's going to be in more than 864 00:59:52.400 --> 00:59:55.159 one thing. Also, they were going to do a spin off with her 865 00:59:55.880 --> 01:00:00.519 as Catwoman, and then that ended up going through a bunch of rewrites and 866 01:00:00.559 --> 01:00:04.840 a bunch of different potential actresses and ended up being the Halle Berry film. 867 01:00:05.719 --> 01:00:07.880 No. Yeah, but that wasn't at all what they were going to do 868 01:00:08.000 --> 01:00:12.880 with this cat one. And I think having this cat Woman have a spinoff 869 01:00:12.880 --> 01:00:15.440 I think could have been really cool. Yeah, that would have been maybe 870 01:00:15.519 --> 01:00:21.639 something really interesting to see this penguin again kind of like Catwoman, I feel 871 01:00:21.639 --> 01:00:25.039 like, is a great performance of this version of the character, not really 872 01:00:25.079 --> 01:00:30.159 the character I would want to see through a long series of films or TV 873 01:00:30.639 --> 01:00:35.639 shows. I kind of feel like all of the villains here are these super 874 01:00:35.760 --> 01:00:40.719 over the top kind of similarly, you know, quite insane kind of like 875 01:00:40.840 --> 01:00:45.079 as opposed to having these like really different kind of motives from one another. 876 01:00:45.360 --> 01:00:50.760 Totally, it's just pure chaos and it's like it works in the film. 877 01:00:51.039 --> 01:00:54.679 Yeah, But like right, And that's one of the nice things about having 878 01:00:54.719 --> 01:00:58.719 films that are kind of standalones like this, you know you were mentioning it, 879 01:00:58.960 --> 01:01:01.719 does you know? He it does reference Vicky Vale. I hadn't even 880 01:01:01.800 --> 01:01:05.039 remembered that, but I was glad to see that that it didn't have this 881 01:01:05.159 --> 01:01:08.559 like amnesia like a lot of sequels back then usually did. Right, particularly 882 01:01:08.920 --> 01:01:12.280 about you know, female characters, they're like, oh, we're on to 883 01:01:12.360 --> 01:01:17.840 the next one, you know. But like it. I like that there 884 01:01:17.920 --> 01:01:22.000 isn't too much continuity in that. It is like it's just it's its own 885 01:01:22.079 --> 01:01:23.840 movie. And if you love it, you can watch it every Christmas. 886 01:01:24.000 --> 01:01:27.280 Right. If you don't, you don't have to, and you're not gonna 887 01:01:27.280 --> 01:01:29.880 be like, oh, but then I'll miss what happened in the next one. 888 01:01:29.920 --> 01:01:30.760 I won't get the reference. It's like it's fine, you know. 889 01:01:32.559 --> 01:01:39.199 And in terms of Batman, like I think this is like we didn't even 890 01:01:39.239 --> 01:01:44.559 really talk that much about Batman, partially because he wasn't the main character really 891 01:01:44.599 --> 01:01:47.599 in the movie, right, But I feel like Michael Keaton's Batman in the 892 01:01:47.679 --> 01:01:52.440 Tim Burton movies, I feel like these villains would not have worked if you 893 01:01:52.519 --> 01:01:55.840 had, like Christian Bales Batman. I feel like he did what any good 894 01:01:57.320 --> 01:02:00.239 you know, straight man does in a comedy, which is like sort of 895 01:02:01.159 --> 01:02:06.079 you know, set things up and give them room to chew all the furniture 896 01:02:06.519 --> 01:02:08.400 and kind of be a little bit like are you done. Okay, now 897 01:02:08.440 --> 01:02:12.960 we're gonna do this, and you know, and so like in terms of 898 01:02:13.119 --> 01:02:16.840 feel and look like very much my Batman. In terms of tossing people into 899 01:02:16.960 --> 01:02:22.679 pits with explosives and letting them blow up, not so much. Yeah, 900 01:02:22.840 --> 01:02:23.800 I think it's when I was thinking, like, in a lot of ways, 901 01:02:23.840 --> 01:02:29.840 this is this is even less my Batman than the last one. But 902 01:02:29.960 --> 01:02:32.880 also here he's the detective. You know, this is I think I think 903 01:02:34.079 --> 01:02:37.000 of all of the Batman movies, this is the one where he's the most 904 01:02:37.039 --> 01:02:39.920 of a detective. And I do really love that. And part of it's 905 01:02:39.920 --> 01:02:45.119 also because in this one there's nothing whatsoever about him striking fear into the hearts 906 01:02:45.400 --> 01:02:50.559 of you know people, and and like Chris you know, the Christian Bale, 907 01:02:50.639 --> 01:02:52.519 Christopher Noan, that's much more on the like the fear, you know, 908 01:02:52.519 --> 01:02:55.679 theatricality side of things. Yeah. So I guess for me, like 909 01:02:57.760 --> 01:03:00.440 I think this is one of my catwomen. I think this is like you 910 01:03:00.519 --> 01:03:04.360 know that there's a couple of different I think, honestly, I think my 911 01:03:04.480 --> 01:03:07.719 two favorites right now are earth a Kit and then the one from the Harley 912 01:03:07.800 --> 01:03:10.280 Quinn. But this one, I think is another very good portrayal. I 913 01:03:10.320 --> 01:03:15.920 think Michelle Pfeiffer is a fantastic portrayal. And I think this is there's a 914 01:03:16.000 --> 01:03:20.360 part of me that what that like doesn't love the idea that the love interest 915 01:03:20.440 --> 01:03:23.159 is always the one who's going to have more of a sympathetic aspect to their 916 01:03:23.239 --> 01:03:27.280 villainy, and so I think that's kind of why I push back on it 917 01:03:27.280 --> 01:03:30.280 a little bit. But I do think, like you know, avenging, 918 01:03:30.360 --> 01:03:35.559 avenging woman who's been mistreated by her bosses and the men in her life, 919 01:03:35.679 --> 01:03:38.000 Like that's a real story that deserves to get told, and there's some righteousness 920 01:03:38.039 --> 01:03:44.199 anger to that character. I think as much as I love Danny DeVito, 921 01:03:45.199 --> 01:03:47.360 this is very that his role is probably the one that strikes me as the 922 01:03:47.400 --> 01:03:53.039 most off because I think the penguins that I most love, especially from the 923 01:03:53.079 --> 01:03:57.880 Amnide series but also from Gotham and some other things, like like this penguin, 924 01:03:57.920 --> 01:04:00.920 the whole point is like they're trying to make him dignify, but they're 925 01:04:00.920 --> 01:04:04.480 trying to put a monster into a tuxedo like other penguins. He look he 926 01:04:04.719 --> 01:04:08.599 is in a tuxedo. Like. The point is that he is a high 927 01:04:08.719 --> 01:04:15.480 cultured, classical like he knows what fork too, who looks like penguin? 928 01:04:15.239 --> 01:04:18.800 Yeah, yeah, like like Danny Tevito doesn't know what fork to use, 929 01:04:18.920 --> 01:04:21.559 and to me, Penguin should know what fork to use and a fancy dinner. 930 01:04:21.800 --> 01:04:25.360 You know, I think you called it earlier though with it it was 931 01:04:25.440 --> 01:04:29.800 about like society being so easily like, oh, you can take this person 932 01:04:29.880 --> 01:04:31.639 who's not a bad guy, who looks like a monster, you know, 933 01:04:31.760 --> 01:04:36.599 theoretically or whatever, trying to tiptoe and you know, and everyone's like, 934 01:04:36.760 --> 01:04:41.000 yeah, you guys said so, all the celebrities said, so he's a 935 01:04:41.079 --> 01:04:45.039 great guy. And then just like that it turns so it's like almost like 936 01:04:45.159 --> 01:04:48.159 the people of Gotham are almost a villain in this too. Yeah. So 937 01:04:48.719 --> 01:04:53.679 there is a sort of a Philadelphia reference because they have that one statue in 938 01:04:53.760 --> 01:04:58.079 the Rockefeller Center of Gotham of the guy the boxer holding up his fists in 939 01:04:58.159 --> 01:05:02.519 one statue, and that statue was not probably up by the time when that 940 01:05:02.599 --> 01:05:06.679 movie came. Well, so if we go with that further though, if 941 01:05:06.719 --> 01:05:10.719 the if part of the idea is can you put Penguin in a suit? 942 01:05:10.840 --> 01:05:14.159 Everyone believe it? Now? I want the two old guys from Trading Places 943 01:05:14.719 --> 01:05:20.320 to kind of watching it, you know, and uh I owned the Trading 944 01:05:20.360 --> 01:05:25.840 Places and coming to America verse. Yes, yes, that's true. That's 945 01:05:25.880 --> 01:05:29.599 true. And to my mind that I think of themstado to me, they're 946 01:05:29.639 --> 01:05:34.360 kind of live action, right, absolutely funny. We're now way off kilter. 947 01:05:34.559 --> 01:05:38.440 So and any any last comments from either of you about this movie. 948 01:05:39.800 --> 01:05:43.760 I still listen to it and love the Suxie and the Banshee song that they 949 01:05:43.800 --> 01:05:47.639 specifically did for the Masquerade Ball. I feel like the Tim Burton Batman movies 950 01:05:47.719 --> 01:05:53.960 have the best musical soundtracks and like scores of Yeah, so many Batman. 951 01:05:54.199 --> 01:05:58.320 I love the Han Zimmer ones. Let me like correct myself, but I 952 01:05:58.559 --> 01:06:01.440 like like the you get Prince to do every song in your first one, 953 01:06:01.559 --> 01:06:04.599 and then you have like six seeing the Ben Chain and Danny Elfman like just 954 01:06:04.719 --> 01:06:10.400 killing it with this one. I really appreciate the scores. Yeah, and 955 01:06:10.480 --> 01:06:12.920 I kind of like that because Paul you pointed out that in the first movie 956 01:06:12.960 --> 01:06:16.760 it felt like Danny Elfman is writing the music for Batman, and Prince is 957 01:06:16.760 --> 01:06:23.079 writing the music for the Joker, right and so here oh wow, right, 958 01:06:23.559 --> 01:06:27.199 and here it sounds like now it's Danny Effman is again writing the music 959 01:06:27.239 --> 01:06:30.519 for Gotham and Batman, and Susie and the Banshees are writing the music for 960 01:06:30.840 --> 01:06:35.480 Capitolman. So that kind of works. There's if the Selena transformation with the 961 01:06:35.599 --> 01:06:42.760 violins like it must have been. It's such a hard violin noise and just 962 01:06:43.039 --> 01:06:45.599 plucks, but it works so well. But like I remember trying to do 963 01:06:45.719 --> 01:06:50.000 it on my violin and it's just like oe oe, like, oh god, 964 01:06:50.239 --> 01:06:54.280 no, you can't play that note. But somehow they do it and 965 01:06:54.400 --> 01:06:58.519 it makes it sound so magically creepy and beautiful. I just love it. 966 01:06:59.519 --> 01:07:01.599 That's all. That's awesome. All right, Well, thank you buy so 967 01:07:01.679 --> 01:07:04.960 much. Really glad we can make this work. Ashley, What are you 968 01:07:05.039 --> 01:07:09.880 up to these days? Are you podcasting anywhere else these days? Sometimes? 969 01:07:11.039 --> 01:07:14.320 So? You can find me on the MCU cast, the Marvel Cinematic Universe 970 01:07:14.360 --> 01:07:17.800 podcast. We have a very special episode of Superhero Ethics coming out about Jaws, 971 01:07:18.960 --> 01:07:24.840 which will be fun Boba Fett weekly. Not this week for me, 972 01:07:25.039 --> 01:07:31.400 but uh next week I will be back on and Peacemaker on Pandavision. That's 973 01:07:31.440 --> 01:07:34.719 it, Yeah, so much. I think I think the Jaws episode will 974 01:07:34.760 --> 01:07:38.280 come out before this one comes out. But yeah, definitely check out the 975 01:07:38.360 --> 01:07:40.519 Jaws episode. There's a lot of fun. And I will say, if 976 01:07:40.559 --> 01:07:44.559 you enjoyed the Jaws episode, that was one Ashley. Ashley came to me 977 01:07:44.639 --> 01:07:46.519 and said, here are these two guests I have. Here's this idea I 978 01:07:46.639 --> 01:07:50.239 have, so definitely give Ashally Autocratic because I've been one of the best episodes 979 01:07:50.280 --> 01:07:56.360 we've done in WI. Thank you, Zen Bandman. We cannot email you 980 01:07:56.719 --> 01:08:00.960 zen Madman at gmail as apparently whoever has the zen man mail at Gmail account 981 01:08:01.000 --> 01:08:04.880 has been being invited to these podcasts the last couple of months and it's been 982 01:08:04.920 --> 01:08:09.719 getting all of our outlines. But I thank god I'm not profit sharing with 983 01:08:09.800 --> 01:08:14.840 you yet, but but yeah, so tell us more about what these n 984 01:08:14.920 --> 01:08:18.640 Madman is up to these days. The Zen Madman is installing acoustic Foam and 985 01:08:18.760 --> 01:08:26.880 got a lovely new mic that sounds even better and doing a lot of things 986 01:08:26.920 --> 01:08:30.640 to try and get ready to start doing a lot of things. So hopefully 987 01:08:31.159 --> 01:08:34.840 I'll be on Twitch again soon. Zen Madman on Twitch and on Twitter, 988 01:08:35.079 --> 01:08:43.039 not on Gmail. And yeah, yeah, that's that's pretty much what I'm 989 01:08:43.119 --> 01:08:47.840 doing around my card to the shop again. Yeah awesome. Well, thank 990 01:08:47.880 --> 01:08:50.840 you both so much for those who know me, you know, as you 991 01:08:50.840 --> 01:08:55.560 can find my podcasts about this, about Star Wars, but other stuff all 992 01:08:55.720 --> 01:08:59.960 at the Ethical Panda dot com or you can also search for the Echual Panda 993 01:09:00.159 --> 01:09:02.479 on Twitter, Facebook, et cetera. Definitely check the out the shut out, 994 01:09:02.479 --> 01:09:04.800 but most importantly that's the best way we get feedback. We love getting 995 01:09:04.800 --> 01:09:09.439 feedback. We'd love to hear more from you all about what's your how do 996 01:09:09.479 --> 01:09:13.760 you feel about Batman returns? How does this fit into your personal pantheon of 997 01:09:14.159 --> 01:09:15.760 who is your Batman? What do you think of this portrayal of Catwoman of 998 01:09:15.800 --> 01:09:21.199 Penguin, Especially because I think all three of us watched this movie when we 999 01:09:21.279 --> 01:09:26.399 were young. I would really love to hear from people who grew up later 1000 01:09:26.920 --> 01:09:30.760 who probably like maybe the Batman from the animated series was your first Penguin and 1001 01:09:30.800 --> 01:09:32.800 now went back and watched this one, or like you grew up with the 1002 01:09:32.920 --> 01:09:40.239 Catwoman from that series, or the Catwoman from and Hathaway's cat Woman from Dark 1003 01:09:40.279 --> 01:09:42.680 Knight, Dark knight rises. You know would love to hear from you. 1004 01:09:42.760 --> 01:09:45.399 What do you think of these portrayals right into us? You find all the 1005 01:09:45.439 --> 01:09:49.000 ways on the ethical pana dot com. So I having myself Paul Ashley, 1006 01:09:49.039 --> 01:09:57.279 thank you all for listening in and have a great day. Dune Dun, 1007 01:10:00.079 --> 01:10:05.359 I'm Batman. Missile code to me, deadly if you eat it, even 1008 01:10:08.239 --> 01:10:17.479 a kiscobee, even sadly if you mean it. I could. A plan is forming