Hello, and welcome to this episode of Superhero Ethics. Friends. This will
be the last our hiatus episodes. We've got a bunch of new content coming
for you now that the strike is over. We're gonna be kicking off with
an episode about the Boys and a great new book that's been written about that
TV show. We have content coming about what is a Christmas movie and the
whole genre of Christmas movies that we know and love or not love. We've
got stuff coming on Spider Man, on all shorts of new content it's been
coming out, and today, in a weird way, we're gonna be kicking
off our Christmas movie content by giving you a blast from the past one of
our favorite old episodes, our coverage of that well known Christmas movie Batman returns.
Do you think it's a Christmas movie? Do you not think it's Christmas
movie? Well, let us know because we'll be going into that further in
our Christmas movie episode. But for now, enjoy this episode. Thank you
again so much for all your support during the strike, and we will be
back with all new content starting next week. Hello, and welcome to this
episode of Superhero Ethics. Today we're talking about Batman returns the second of the
Michael Keaton Tim Burton team up movies. We're getting into that with myself,
Paul Hoppy and Ashley Coffin talking about the ethical issues around Batman, the look,
the feel, the tone, looking at how this movie fits into our
understanding of who Batman is as we get ready for the Batman movie coming out
in March, and asking is this hard Batman all that more? After a
commercial Rick we have no control over, but maybe Max Shrek does. Welcome
back to Matthew host joined it, as said by Ashley Coffin and Paul Happy,
Ashley, you weren't able to join us last time, so so glad
you here. This is a movie you're pre fond of, if I understand
correctly, Yeah, this is one of my favorite movies for just so many
reasons. Nice. Nice, We'll really good to have you this, Paul.
Good to have you back discussing Batman again. Yeah, it's nice to
be back. I'm also extra glad Ashley's here because I always always enjoy podcasting
with Ashley. But also I rewatched the movie and like, didn't love it,
so it'll be nice to have you know, a more positive voice.
So there's a lot I like about it, And it's not like I'm just
gonna be trashing it or anything, but there's there's some there's some things.
Yeah, I did not love it the first time I saw it as a
kid. He came out like ninety two something like that. Rewatching it again
now, I don't think it is not to be on the same level as
the first one or a lot of the other Like, I think it's definitely
in like, not my top tier a Batman movies, but I definitely think
there's a lot more than I got out of the movie than I saw than
I got out of it when I was a kid. So yeah, thinks
really interesting kind of hearing both your perspectives on this. And let's just start
with kind of a plot summary, Paul, having given you no preparation at
all, do you want to just for those who haven't seen this movie before
or haven't remembered it, give kind of a quick, thirty second, woe
minute plot summary. Yeah. Cool. It's an origin story for Penguin and
Catwoman, and there's a bigness businessman who's like Max Lord, but isn't Max
Lord. He's Max Shrek or his Shrek, which is a weird name for
him to have, and I guess Batman's also in the movie. Yeah,
yeah, I think that's pretty well put. Yeah, it's we get the
Catwoman origin story. She's the secretary for Max Shrek. He's you know,
evil businessperson dot Org. He wants to uh take over the city because the
mayor is getting in the way of his dreams for a power plant. And
meanwhile, this penguin guy has been down in the sewers doing penguin things.
Is he a man eater? Is he not? And so Max kind of
pulls Penguin out into the light and makes him a hero and then orchestrates for
Penguin to run for mayor. And all this time, uh Selena Kyle,
Max Max's secretary, is trying to executive assistant executive assistant, thank you.
She gets thrown out a window and a bunch of cats lick her, and
so she becomes Catwoman. I think it's the thing, which is still very
difficult scene for me to watch, and I love her. It grosses me
out. Really, the magic realism of this movie will definitely be discussing.
But at the end, Penguin reveals that he's penguin. Catwoman winds up being
a pseudo ally pseudo not as we'll discuss. She kills Max Shrek. We
think she might have died, but we see her at the very last frame
of the movie, and Batman like fights crime, but like Batman gets framed
a lot exactly well, and so let's let's kind of go from there into
kind of general impressions in the movie, because to me, I think the
most interesting thing about it and you'd think this is a bad thing, but
I actually kind of really like it is that, as you said, Paul,
Batman is a very small part of this movie, and even more so,
Batman doesn't have a character arc in this movie. Like this feels to
me a lot like in Epithy. I think we've often talked before about how
we don't like like the the idea that in a movie you have to kind
of question the premise every single time. This feels like an episode. You
know, Batman is Batman at the beginning, he's Batman at the end.
It's just it's the like Catwoman and Penguin episode of Tim Burton Batman. I
think that's waal put. Yeah, yeah, I'm trying to like it's funny
because you're right, because I have to sit here and think about like what
Batman was doing. But it's because like I wonder, I would love to
know more about how this film was made, because I would wonder if that
was the initial storyline or if these two actors just like had roles written for
them that were just so perfect, because like Danny DeVito has been in a
lot of great movies, but for me, this is one of his best
roles, and it's very like, I don't know, he's intense, he's
funny and Catwoman like that year I was Catwoman for Halloween. Like she started
my love of like the tortured villain. Like you're a villain, but you're
not a villain but you know, more Punisher style kind of vigilanti villain that
I love and you know, as an adult, aspire to be. But
I don't know, there was a lot the Batman of it all was just
like he was a ploy. Yeah, Like I'd be kind of curious what
the salaries were, and I I mean, Michael Keaton is the Stalk?
Is that that real? Yeah? Michael Keaton made ten million, Michelle made
three million, oh no, which was two million more than the originally intended
actress for a cat Woman how much Danny divido't make I don't know that.
I think a Nett Benning was originally going to be Catwoman. Oh, Michelle,
I can see it. But Michelle was a much better choice. She
was fantastic. Yeah, but yeah, clearly to me it's I mean,
in terms of like amount paid pro line of dialogue or moment on screen,
Keaton is making one hell of a good deal. Yeah. Yeah, it's
not quite Mark Hamill in The Force Awakens, but top billing plus millions for
zero lines of dialogue. But so, I guess that's kind of my My
overall impression is like I love that it's not an origin story for it's not
a Batman movie, and I mean it's a Batman movie, but like it
doesn't have to have a plot hook. I love that for Batman. I
like the two characters. Some of it just doesn't grab me, but overall,
I like the kind of social commentary aspects. Actually, for you,
what makes this movie so good. It's there's some parts of this movie that
are kind of unforgettable for me, like doing theater and as an actor and
see like the freak out Selena Kyles freak out Like that's just it just looked
like it was the most fun thing in the world to do. It's one
of the best freakouts I've ever seen on screen. And like this is when
you're getting introduced to like a very different kind of catwoman from you know,
like the Adam West stuff, and you know, we're seeing like she's,
well, we don't really get the full story of how it happened, what's
you know, whatever, you know, but coming back and like getting in
her boss's face the kind of way that she did, Like sure, he's
like I'll just push her out of Hiowinda, but still like there's just this
empowerment in her character that as a young girl really stood out for me.
And then it's Christmas Movie, which I we watch it on Christmas Eve every
year, so there's something about the whole Christmas aspect. I don't know.
I just I really love the journey that it goes on, and it almost
I feel like you're like going down this hole with Bruce Wayne, Like there's
these two dominating people and you don't know, like what are you going to
do about it? It's something like the Joker was one thing, but I
feel like he was supposed to be a very young Bruce Wayne even though that
you know, they picked Michael Keaton, who is amazing, but I don't
know, I don't know. I don't think he was ready for them.
Yeah. Yeah, I feel like that scene is definitely one of the best
scenes in this movie. It, I mean where she like literally paints it
black. She's just painting everything black. And oh that pink apartment, uh
yeah, where with the hello there sign that turns into hell here? Oh
beautiful. And one of the things that I think sets her off is,
you know, she's got these messages on her machine, right, and one
of them is from Gotham Lady Perfume and Selina Kyle. It's so creepy,
like the thing it's like your boss will be asking you to stay late for
a candle light dinner for two, like sexual harassment, much like that,
but that that's like what you should want, you know, as an employee,
is like to get with the boss or whatever. It's like, I
don't know. And then then she like busts out and becomes katwoman. Basically
best movie scream, you know what. We talked a little bit of this
about We talked a little bit about this last time, Paul. But I
think in this movie even more, there's sort of a time. I feel
like there's no clear sense of what time this is happen. This movie is
happening in terms of what dates, Oh what era? Yeah, because like
all the men, all the men, especially the journalis with all them are
wearing hats, you know, and to me, that's like that hasn't been
a thing since the fifties really if even before that. Like, and there's
there's so much about it that we talked about this with the TV show Gotham
sometimes that that is kind of like, you know, it's not quite set
in a particular moment in time, and there's a timelessness to go. Gotham
is kind of stuck in the noir era. And I do think that this
movie kind of conveyed and that that advert to me, like that advertisement is
straight out of mad Men, you know very much, or like nineteen fifties
thing I which I love. I'm so like biased against this movie because it
has so many things that I loved well, and so I want to get
into specific details up pull for you kind of generally, what didn't you love
about this movie? I mean, I feel like the plots a mess,
Like the plot and pacing are just a mess, and I feel like it
doesn't get us into Like I feel like I don't care about what's happening a
lot of the time. Sometimes there's cool stuff that's happening and I'm enjoying the
scene, but like within the context of the movie, I'm like, I
don't really know what Penguin wants, like we spend some time with him and
Shrek, and like, you know, having a Batman movie where he's like
not that much of the movie. Like knowing that, like I could see
like watching it again clearly with that in mind might be kind of make it
more enjoyable. I can kind of see how if you love the movie,
like rewatching it is actually like kind of in some ways better than watching it
for the first time. I actually remember the experience of being in the theater
and like for the first half hour just being like what is going on?
Like where's Batman? You know? And I think that can be cool.
I think for like the second movie in potentially a series, you know,
it's it's ambitious. I've seen this described as like the first blockbuster art house
film or something, you know, so it really does feel like I think
they went through at least six scripts. There was Originally it was going to
be about Penguin and Catwoman, Catwoman hunting for like hidden treasure, and which
seems very in character with them, like them wanting material wealth, right,
that's kind of cat Woman's a cat burglar. Penguin's usually this sort of business
kind of gangsterek kind of guy, right, and here Catwoman wants vengeance.
That's it, right, Like she like she's gotten liberation and now she wants
vengeance basically, and Penguin wants vengeance. And you know, and I mean
Penguin like in the beginning, I was like, oh, I'm like I
feel sorry for like this little kid, Like whatever is this little kid?
And like what his parents think? He's ugly? So oh he ate the
cat? Like is that when you would throw him over the first and bridge,
that's when I would throw him out a higher window? Yeah no,
But like, yeah, I there's like a lot about kind of what it
does that I like. But I just feel like the way it gets there,
it feels to me like a movie that went through tons of rewrites and
doesn't have this like tight narrative, but has a lot of great moments.
I think that's a good way of putting it, because I don't want to
get into Penguin specifically, but even just going on the Batman part, Yeah,
I definitely had that first reaction as well. I was paying attention the
first time bet we see Bruce Wayne on screen early on when they light up
the bat signal and he's just sitting in the dark waiting for it. Yeah,
which is one of the most Bruce Wayne moments I've ever seen in my
life. It's fantastic. Yeah, But his first line of spoken dialogue is
I think at thirty minutes right, like, and like, you know,
I kind of think maybe part of it is that there's not much for him
dialogue wise. There's not much for him character development wise. There's not much
for him character development wise, although the romance between him and suddenly n Kyle
is fantastic and I'll say more about that in the moment. But also he
doesn't get to have many cool toys like I did kind of wonder if maybe
part of the problem was in the well he has the boat, but like
that batmobile breaks apart and becomes that torpedo that can go down through Okay,
and then let us tear it apart. Okay, sure, the penguins.
I feel like in the first movie we got so much of like, look
at every cool thing Batman can do, between like the plane and the car
and the different gadgets, that there wasn't anything in this movie where I was
like, oh my god, Batman can do that too. Any other Batmobile
can do some new kind of cool things. But I think that that having
Batman be as to me. I think like the movie did two things,
one of which is have Batman not need to be the central character in terms
of character growth. The other is just significantly reduce his screen time and maybe
you can like maybe you don't have to do both of those things. You
know you could have done the first one, and the second one is give
him up. Like, I don't think there's a fight scene in this movie
that our member is being at all interesting. Yeah, except maybe maybe Catwoman
and Batman Batman. Yeah yeah, but that's that's like really almost like the
only scene I can think of that's like real like hand to hand fighting.
And I feel the opposite in terms of the toys. I hear what you're
saying, and like maybe the toys don't feel as cool as they did in
the first movie, but I feel like they were leaning into them so heavily,
Like he's just constantly he doesn't attack the guy, He like hits the
thing behind him and then pulls the wall onto him. Okay, you know
he's got this battering that he programs to hit a bunch of people. What's
that? Like? The car breaking apart? Like I don't know. I
remember when at that moment in the theater, like it kind of lost me.
It feels like this very sequelitis, like what do we think people want
to see? Okay, let's go more with the toys. And I felt
that fight scenes felt boring because maybe it's because they came with more sort of
gadgets, but they weren't really interesting clever ideas. But also to me,
it's just like, you know, I want to see him sidekick someone,
you know, I hand to hand still in the stage where they couldn't move,
and that goes to the next Like two Batman movies, they put that
cowl on them and they can't move their heads, so you're very limited with
what you can do with an actor. Yeah, but in the first movie,
I feel like they did a better job with it anyway, Like I
I, Yeah, he got his legs up pretty high. There's some pretty
awesome kicks in the first Yeah, there's not a lot of funny. He's
not gonna kick cat Woman in the face. I mean he does. How
could you when he's like, oh, I'm sorry, He's like, dude,
I'm a woman and shouldn't be taken granite. She's so good at playing
off of like dumb mail, chauvinism, I'm a woman the life. I
just I just feel like the fight scenes don't feel compelling. You know.
The only fight scene that I felt at all invested in was the one between
Batwoman. Batwoman and Kay Okay. You know, I think we gotta came
the same play, and that was kind of my point that it felt like
there wasn't enough, Like if he's not gonna be interesting doing speaking things,
at least make the other stuff he's doing interesting. Yeah. I agree with
that totally, And to me, I think one part of it is,
you know, actually the last last episode we talked about how in the last
third of the movie, Batman kind of becomes the punisher in ways we didn't
really love, in terms like using guns and missiles and having really bad aim
when it comes to shooting the Joker. But you know, and but that
you don't think that was on purpose because he's Batman. Well no, because
he clearly kills a bunch of other people. And in this movie when there
was some of the like pulling out pavement to hit people and things like that,
I was kind of like, Oh, okay, are you showing us
that Batman is going to ingenious lengths to incapacitate people without killing them? Okay,
cool? Maybe Nope, he just straight up killed that guy, Like
he threw the guy with the bomb down the hole and then he blew up
like he's just sleeping. He's just sleeping. That That was the moment where
I was like, Okay, so all right, so putting aside Batman,
let's talk about the three villains, because I think the thing I like most
about this movie is the interplay between those three and each of their three characters
being so interesting, and I want to talk about like the each of them
individually, but just starting with I think one of the questions the movie really
asks in such a great way is with Catwoman kind of being sort of an
anti hero, but especially with Penguin and Shrek, the question is like,
who's the real monster. You know, Penguin looks like a monster and does
monstrous things. He eats cats, other thing or eat one cat. Shrek
looks like a respectable businessman. What Over the course of the movie, like
until maybe Tim Burton is just really bad at the last act of movies because
I also like, Penguin feels like such an interesting character to me, who's
not the monster that Max is? Until he decides, Okay, well catwoman
didn't sleep with me, so now I hate her, which was an awful
moment. And also the city doesn't like me, so now I'm gonna blow
it all up or steal all their kids. Like I feel like he kind
of got you, Like I feel like the penguin always was a monster,
but it's like he wasn't a monster because of how he looked. That was
like we were supposed to overcome that prejudice and then realize like, oh,
but he's a monster because he is a monster. Maybe it's because he was,
you know, not treated as well as a child, blah blah blah,
but like he is. Actually what he wants is like revenge on a
bunch of kids who weren't the people who wronged him, right, the people
who wronged him are dead, and like so he just, yeah, I
feel like he's not this like very complex character. He's trying to pretend to
be misunderstood, but he's actually not. Well, it's all of Batman scene
with the with the disc when he actually records what he thinks about the city
and on the other side, you know, it's kind of like, look
at Wilson Fisk. I think Wilson Fisk really believed that what he was doing,
for some part was the best for the city, but the penguin always
knew, always had these other plans. He had the plans to collect the
children before he was mayor, because that's what they were working on up in
his attic whatever like secret like layer where they like inducted him into being mayor.
So he always kind of had this backup plan or was always going to
do that anyway. But if it had all worked out perfectly for him,
that would have stopped it. But that was never going to happen, because
that's just not the way the world works. I guess to me, like
the three of us were the ones who discussed the Witcher. I like I
kind of see Mac Max Shrek as like Stregobore and Penguin as like one of
the monsters they're fighting in terms of like because the story that killed his friend,
I mean like he's a murderer. Yeah, that's is the maximum evil.
Yeah that's yeah my point because he's sort of like I am malevolently plotting
evil, where with Penguin, I got I mean like the kitten like y
off, but like it's like a he's a feral beast and where the development
that I thought I saw from him was he was definitely that kind of very
feral creature, completely unsocialized, like not a good person by any means.
And the fact that Max and in the whole city kind of wants to embrace
him is meant to be kind of ridiculous because he's clearly not a heroic figure.
He saved the mayor's baby, right exactly, But it's but that it's
when he realizes that Max was playing him and the whole thing falls apart on
him, that's kind of his last turn into being, you know even more
like now I'm gonna want to take out all the kids in the city.
But he already had all the plans, like all the names m h.
That's fair, I think, And that's sort of like where Actually the part
of I like a lot about Batman outside of the fight scenes in this movie,
where I'd like that he's very much a detective. I like that he
sees penguins and he sees through his bullshit basically, and he does detective work
and he figures it out, and you know, he records this, you
know, hijacking of the Batmobile on a disc and then play somehow scratches the
CD to make it repeat, Like that's not how that technology works. But
that felt to me like they were like, oh, it's the nineties,
let's do something, you know. I was like, mmmm, And I
love that everything's the bat everything, like even the city player was like the
bat symbol bat CD player exactly, yeah, exactly right. But like that
he is like trying to outsmart you know, I mean, he outsmarts penguin
basically, and like that's that. I enjoy the fighting scenes, you know,
particularly like where you know that woman's on the ledge and then the bats
are there and then she like falls off, and he's just like, oh,
I guess she fell. I'm like, not my Batman, like I
really, he told her not to move, right, He did tell her
not to move, and then she moved, but then like she fell and
then the cops showed up. Oh he should have dove off and tried to
say, like immediately Batman does, what's the point of all those gadgets if
you're not going to jump off the top of a building, grab someone,
shoot some grappling hook and then land like you know, about four feet from
the ground, if that right, Like, maybe he has a Garfield moment
and she doesn't make it, and that's part of how he party gets right,
Yeah, him just standing there and being like oops, like, not
my Batman. The cops show up pretty quick though, Yeah, they were
already yeah right, because there was a thing going on. Yeah. Yeah.
The whole point was Penguin was trying to frame bat right right, to
make him look like and they like the cops shoot him off the top and
that's when he glides down, right. And I think I think you guys
are both right, and I was maybe overstating it. It's not that I
think the Penguin is a good character at all. It's that I think I
think it does set something up where I do think Max is worse, Like
to me at least until at least until that last act and for something for
me, And maybe this is who the penguin always is, but having him
change so quickly on Catwoman because she rejects him sexually or romantic sexually pretty clearly
in such like viciously like oh you're a tease, your right rights. She's
like, I wouldn't touch you, to scratch you. She's the best.
You set out all the signals. I feel like you wanted the penguin,
like that the penguin was pretending to be a character that you would have found
more interesting, and that the movie wasn't necessarily telling an incoherent story about who
this penguin is, But that who this penguin is is less interesting than the
penguin you want. That's fair, That's certainly very fair. And I have
more interesting penguins. I feel like the Gotham penguin is, you know,
more interesting. Some of the animated penguins have a little bit more nuance a
lot of the time, and I wonder if that also is due to some
of the script the script rewrites, is that maybe there may have been a
version of them of the move because I think a lot of this stuff.
I think you're supposed to feel fairly sympathetic for Penguin in a lot of ways.
I Mean, one thing I thought was interesting is they there's kind of
this whole Moses motif, Like that's deliberate. Yeah, yeah, the bashnet
floating on the water, and then like the slaying of the first born.
Is this very like I don't know where this is going, right, but
yeah, I kind of wonder maybe like there's some parts of it that I
think are clearly written to be like Max is the real monster, Penguin is
the the victim who has become a monster, but then probably later rewrites You're
like, no, but let's just make Penguin evil, you know. So
anything else on, mister Peang before we move on to our next contestant.
I'm good. Oh, I mean just like you know, you know in
the Dunk and like, yeah, I mean I feel like the performance is
like so over the top but it works, it's so good, but I
feel like it takes I actually had the opposite feeling you had, where it
took me most of the movie to kind of buy him as like Okay,
this is this guy, you know, and and to be like all right,
let's just go with it. Whereas in the beginning, I don't know,
like it didn't it kind of doesn't work for me in the beginning,
and then it kind of and maybe on a rewatch, like and I mean
this was a rewatch, but it was a rewatch decades later. Like I
watched both movies in the theater, and then I had both on VHS,
right, And but I watched the first movie a lot, and like maybe
I rewatched the other one once, but like I I just didn't read this
one, right, I just didn't. I watch this a bunch of times.
So this is almost like a new viewing. So I know that at
least once when the fourth movie was about to come out, we had a
like marathon of the first three at my house that I think you were at.
Yeah, I didn't watch them all though I've ever seen Batman forever in
its entirety. For the rest, well, we're probably gonna change that,
all right. So what about mister Max Shrek? What do we think of
him? I mean, it's Christopher Walkin. They couldn't have gotten a better
person to play that role. Between the three of them, there's not a
piece of scenery that does not have teeth. Markets Yeah, it is all
devowered, Like he feels over the top villainous, but like in a real
world way. He's like, I'm doing this for my son Chip, you
know. It's like I'm a good guy. It's for Chippers, you know.
And like that scene of him like throwing out the presence to the people
in the crowd, like felt very twenty seventeen to me. Yeah, Trump
throwing paper towels. Yeah, and it's like, Okay, these aren't paper
towels, and those aren't you know, people who just had a hurricane go
through, but they live in Gotham, which I think is kind of like
having a hurricane go through every day. Almost so many clown attacks, so
many clown attacks. I mean, if we keep I feel like to me,
I think over the top is kind of the definition of this movie.
You know, it was like it Schumacher takes it into camp, which I
think I used to hate but now have a real appreciation for this. Do
you feel like it's just the like this feels much more like a comic book
movie than the first one. Did you know, like even a little Kyles
badass as she is, if this was like a serious movie I would be.
I was like, no, come on, no human being talks like
that. It's she's doing your catwoman voice. This is like camp noir.
Maybe that's like why I love it, because there's something about the dark.
The makeup, the music is one of my favorite scores of any movie ever.
It's amazing. I just and the mood that it all sets when you
put it together is like I'm like, I want to live in that Gotham
because I think I would thrive. But that's my personality, right, Like
in some ways, Ashley, did you see the TV show Gotham? No,
Okay, this noir camp feels kind of similar. Like I think Gotham
would also very much qualifies near camp, and this movie feels very similar in
tone to that in terms of like it's timeless, everything is over the top,
everything is there's a lot of exclamation marks in the script, you know,
yeah, I think. I mean the complaints about the movie from like
most of the people who made complaints at the time were like, it's too
dark, it's too adult, it's too serious and brooding, and it's like,
did we see the same movie? Like it is visually dark, Like
some of the themes are dark, but they're definitely treated in like a a
dark comedy kind of way. I think this one, the first one,
is definitely the one that I like the most. This one feels the most
tim Burton like, I feel like the first one was successful. So who's
like, all right, I get to do this kind of how I want.
Yeah, it just the Arctic like park, you know, the animal
like everything just looks so all the penguins, yeah, penguins. Yeah.
Well and this kids. I made this reference before, but I want to
maybe she kind of bring it up the topic now. To me, one
of the words I think of this movie is magical magical realism, you know,
in terms of like there are things happening that don't make sense by the
laws of our natural world, but that are also never like you know,
in Marvel we talk about how there's always some sort of like line of pseudobabble
science or mysticism and like starch. But here, like, you know,
how is Penguin born the way he is? Right, it's a birth defect
or like cat Woman. Catwoman, Yeah, like she she clearly gains powers
of some extent, certainly her you know, she went through like she got
like a neo level Matrix download of Marshal Law and you get nine lives.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, she died and then on died.
She dies many times, yea many times. I think she has one life
left at the end of I kept waiting for it to show that she had
a bulletproof vest and was kidding, but no, she meant it about the
she gets just like I got nine lives. How do I know this?
Batman killed me? You killed me? Three left. I just brought that
up now because to me, that's also very much a Tim Burton thing of
like there's spookiness, there's weirdness, you don't understand it, don't ask questions
that necessary or a lot more, and I don't. I don't mind it.
But it's definitely different, very different. Agreed. Yeah, does the
fact that we jumped off the topic so quickly say something about Max Shrek as
like Christopher Walken is a great actor and he choose some scenery, but like
it's basically just Lex Luthor. I mean even less than that. Max Trek
is just a facilitator for moving the plot along, Like we need the guy,
you know, he killed Selena Kyle and he just happens to be the
guy who helps get Penguin in power and runs the second that things go sideways
and that's where everything starts to go to shit. So he's really just kind
of like the facilitator of all the bad things that are happening in the movie
All Three, the Bruce Wayne thing with the power plant, he killed Selena
Kyle and going with and then turning against the Penguin. We need, you
know, if Batman's not going to do it, we need somebody to deal
with these villains. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean to me,
he's like the script doctor is like, how are we going to make all
these things work? It's like Max Shreckls Yeah, And I mean I think
he's you know, it's like a very simple character archetype, I think,
executed flawlessly by Walkin, you know. And I mean I think he would
make a great Legs Luthor too. You know. Yeah, I agreed.
At first. I had to look up. I was like, is this
stag like? Because he reminded me of lot like with the hair and stuff
of that stag from uh usually from Wonder Woman. I think he also shows
up in the Justice League and I made serious, but he's not. They
just made up a new character, and I think it would have been a
very unmemorable, kind of irrelevant filming character if it wasn't Christopher walking and giving.
You know, it's like nothing he does is that interesting, but the
way he does it exactly. Yes, he's generic evil capitalists seen the hundred
different movies, but you're right, Yeah, And I think that's the genuinely
scary In that scene with Selena Kapp before he pushes her out the window,
like when he's in here for like, ugh, it's very tense. Yeah,
absolutely, especially because one of the things I loved about that scene is
and this kind of gets more into like the Gotham of it all that we'll
get to later. I don't think there's a better way the filmmakers could have
shown us this is a person who has zero thought that he will ever be
held accountable for anything. Yeah, Because like if I'm a cop and I
find the dead body and then I look up and I see a broken window
and I figure out that this woman used to work for the guy with the
broken window, I think I know where to start my investigation. She flat
out says it. She's like, it's not like you can just kill me
and He's like, actually, it's a lot like that. Yeah, yeah,
exactly, Yeah, that shot. Why isn't that shot The way that
they have her shadows bouncing off of like her face, the way like they
had like a light of ring light and it makes like these cat kind of
shadows over her eyes. Like I love stuff like that, which is all
Like the cinematography in this movie is beautiful. It really is. It definitely
is. Word. Let's talk about actually, you know, even kind of
chomping at the bit to get more of this, Let's talk about Sleenna Kyle
Catwoman. What do we love? What? What do you think of this?
This this this portrayal of the character. I like, it's it's what
I let I'm going to claim a new term, and it's called evil feminism.
And I really love what she's doing with it because, like, you
know, she's she's kind of tough. In the beginning, she's standing up
to them, you know, she steals that uh shocker, what do you
call them? Yeah, she steals that taser and like kind of tases the
guy. So you get right away like she's tough, but like you're not
super superhero or villain tough. And then she goes through this traumatic thing and
decides like, I'm gonna come back and just wreck havoc on the people that
did this to me, and I'm gonna get there anyway, I ken.
But then she starts to kind of fall in love with Batman and uh and
it gets in her head and it's just such a well, I don't know,
Michelle Fiffor just did such a good job with this role. Yeah,
I think, especially because she sells so well both She sells Selena Kyle both
before and after the transfer. Yes, you know, I've seen other versions
like this where like you look at the character before the thing happens and you're
just like, I don't believe as a nebshy person who you look like a
gorgeous person who hasn't brushed their hair right like, And I think, I
mean part of it's the makeup and the costumes for sure, but she portrayed
nebshy and shy and like Wallflower that gets walked over by everyone so well in
a way that I felt made the transformation to Catwoman as ridiculous and ununderstandable as
it is. Completely like it worked. You know. That's why I love
the scene where like when we first see her and she's in this board meeting
and like that's my job during the day, Like I'm the goat one going
in giving coffee to all of the people at work, Like that is daily
when we have meetings. That is my job to in the middle be like,
well, I have an idea. There's just something about that scene I
love so much as because like I sometimes think, like at my work,
like I'm like, how do I know the right thing to do? And
you are all sitting here like payroll this and that, Like I know the
right thing to do, but none of you do, but you're not gonna
listen to me. So even the fact that like this meek character did that
show it, Like, I don't know, there's just something. There's something
about all the little things she does in this movie that as a young girl
kind of resonated with me and sticks with me as throughout my adulthood. Yeah.
I mean you probably see the mistakes they make over and over and over
and they can't see them because they're making them, and like I think that's
definitely a thing a lot of the time, you know, But I feel
like that scene does sell her as kind of someone who's going to evolve into
Catwoman. M yeah, I do feel though kind of in this movie like
there is no Selena Kyle, only Catwoman, Like yeah, like once she
becomes cat, Like, it's very different from most of the other Catwoman's that
I am familiar with and enjoy where Selena Kyle is a person who dresses up
as Catwoman and like Catwoman is or alter ego. But like there isn't this
like disconnect between those, right, It's not like this felt very much like
you know, Patty Jenkins and I think Jeff John's right wrote the script to
Wonder Woman eighty four, and it feels like they just saw this and then
they're like, oh, let's capture that and turn her into you know what's
her name? Yeah yeah, And but here it's you know, done better,
and it's done thirty almost years earlier, which feels like some of the
things that you do, like I feel don't I don't know, like that
that board meeting, I feel like that plays better then than it does now,
you know, even if it's like unfortunately still a relatable moment, you
know, But just like that, also in this Gotham that feels kind of
like it's fifties ish, you know, it feels like, well, yeah,
you know. That's My Other favorite scene with her is the Masquerade Ball
when they're dancing and then she's just like in the middle of the dance floor
just pulls out the gun like I'm gonna kill him, and he's like,
what are you doing and she's just got that. She's like, I don't
know, no, I just and then they like have the reveal the missiletoe
thing and they're like, uh oh, or do we start fighting now?
And I just I absolutely love that scene. And I feel like that's kind
of the fight between Catwoman and Selena Kyle in that scene. Okay, yeah,
that's the scene where they figure out who each other, Like, I
think that is one of my favorite. Like, actually, this is funny
because my two favorite moments where two people realize who each other's alternate identity is
both involved Michael Keaton because it's it's this it's this moment, yeah, and
that it's him and Tom Holland in the car where they figure out that there
Spider Man in Vulture. It's like it's totally different, but I remember I
was like, he's done this twice. This is so good. I think
one of the things that Catwoman that I was noticing and Paul wondering, this
is kind of what you're talking about about how different it is. She's always
flirting with Batman, and there's sometimes stories where they get together, but she's
she is a she's a member of the Rogues Gallery. She does villainous things,
and she's not often like earth A Kit was sexy as hell and wonderful,
but she wasn't like she wasn't like anti hero levels of like righteous revenge
that she's getting. She just wanted to steal stuff and hurt people along the
way. And I think here and also to some extent with in Batman Forever,
although there at least she starts out as a burglar. It's something like
when you have her on screen in the Dark Knight, The Dark Knight,
Oh God, yeah, uh yeah. In the in the Dark Knight Rises
as well, they move her from being a villain to an anti hero,
you know, where It's like she's she has she wants to do things that
Batman wants to stop, but she also like we us the audience, are
very sympathetic towards her. And I don't think it's wrong with that portrayal.
I just I think it's kind of interesting that they shy away from the like
no, I mean, she maybe not as bad as as jokers. She
doesn't want to kill people, but like she's just robbing people to make herself
rich, Like she's not, you know, on this great feminist crusade.
The way that this character is, she tells to be like a robin Hood
type thing, like she steals for herself, but then she also like helps
the others or yeah, yeah, I think some versions a lot of Catwoman
portrayals she is a little bit of a robin Hood character. Like she's often
like she wants the jewels for herself, but also like she's usually got like
some ward or something. She's got a bunch of cats she's feeding. Like
I think she is very much an anti hero, or maybe she's an anti
villain. I'm not sure, but like, yeah, you know, she's
It's kind of like the scene where she saves the chick from getting robbed or
whatever was happening there and then she grabs her face, And I love this
scene because she's like, you know, so easy to just scream for someone
to come save you, like tough nups save yourself, and that like I
can get that like lack of empathy for people who seem weaker. But you
know, I feel like I'm working through my own stuff here right now.
But like I totally get that scene, Like she felt like a victim her
whole life, so now she's this new life. You know, when she
sees that other person, she saves her, but she's also like, you
know, some Batman's not always gonna come save you. Yeah, get it,
which very pointed for a person who Batman came and saved, Like that
was a little bit of projection in that moment. Yeah, but yeah,
no, but I think it was like today. I think if I watched
that, I'd be like, oh, victim blaming much? Oh yeah,
by time idea, yeah, yeah, there was a little sort of unsavoriness
to that, but at the same time like, yeah, but at the
time this is made and even more like in the fifties idea, Yeah,
I totally get that idea of like, look, I can protect myself.
You don't have to just be away in the corner. I have a fun
fact that scene where she takes the man's heads off with the whip, Yes,
she did that in one take and that was actually Michelle Viper. Wow.
And it's on YouTube, the whole crew, and everybody's just clap clapping,
like yeah, first take. Yeah, actually her, I mean she
she Yeah, she trained hard for the role whip instructor. I think she
like cut her chin or something. She's very good. Yeah, well,
and just back to the whole like where she's victim. Like how much of
Batman sixty six have you seen, Paul? I watched most of the episodes
when I was a kid, like on TV. Okay, I haven't deliberately,
I haven't rewatched it in decades. Yeah, I'm wondering. And this
is the thing I might bring on Jessica Plumber for later episode to get into
because she has a real knowledge, like a history of comic books and she
loves the Catwoman character. I do wonder how much of that kind of like
more like she has sympathetic goals starts with this movie or starts around or maybe
because like earth a Kit, I think was very much just villain like.
And but you're right, like I think in the Batman TV, in the
Batman the Animate series, she's often much more sympathetic. Have you guys seen
the TV show Harley Quinn. Yeah, in that one, she's much more
back to just being like I just want to steal stuff, like I'm not
trying to be on some crusade. And I remember thinking like, this is
such an interesting new, not new take on the character, but like a
a take I haven't seen in the character for a long time, right,
Yeah, I mean she's definitely a character who can play different roles in different
stories, and here, you know, she she feels a little more huntress
to me here where I feel like she's not a villain, but she's an
antagonist and she's doing something that like maybe we're not supposed to approve of.
But it's like, I don't know if you want to kill someone who killed
you already and they're like a billionaire who's scrolling over the city like she.
I love that she killed him herself, and I love the way that she
did it, But she didn't know about the ice princess stuff. She was
like, you said, you weren't going to kill a yeah you know,
so she was not privy to that information that that was going to happen.
They were just supposed to kill Batman, which she was okay with, right
right, that's true? Right? Well, yeah, I love a complicated
character. Oh no, what it really is. I mean, there's so
much depth to her, and it's one of my favorite Batman stories is Mask
of the Phantasm, which in some ways is a very similar dynamic in that
he has a romantic interest in someone who is like Batman, but then like
clearly steps over that line from justice to vengeance, you know. And I
think there's a little bit of that same thing here with him being like,
yeah, Max Shrek is kind of terrible. We should take him down,
but just like assassinating him maybe not so much, even though he does kill
people. I mean that it gets there's an incoherence. I think, Paul
was the word you used that I think is pretty appropriate here. But there
is one Max Shrek who actually that I just wanted to throw in, which
was one can never have too much power, And yeah, I felt like
that sort of summed up not just this character, but like, you know,
all the characters and real life humans who this character represents. It's like,
yeah, yeah, I mean, well when it comes up to the
expensive power for others, yeah yeah you can. Yeah. I think you
know. One other just kind of cool thing about Selena Kyle I wanted to
mention. I think I think actually you made a kind of paffing reference has
been one of the like really, uh, let me say one of just
a cool thing about Selena Kyle Catwoman that actually you brought up. The whole
movie feels like almost black and white, you know, especially like the scenes
in the Underground, Like the way it's lit, it looks black and white,
and so in that, like Gotham is almost monochromatic. The aggressive bubblegum
pink of everything in Selena Kyle's apartment is just so refreshing. So everything's black
and white. But she has that blue eyeshadow and the red lipstick and it
is just dream against her alabaster skin and black. And I remember, like
that's like where my passion for blue eyeshad Okay, Like I just was like,
that didn't look great on me. Looked like her at the end of
the movie when she pulls it up because he is Batman, you idiot,
She's just got like the clockwork orange going on. I'm like, yes,
that's how I look like at the end of Every Party Night. Such a
good scene. Backing up to Penguin, also, for one second, the
Penguin's henchmen are all clowns. Or at least a lot of them are,
right, and I I wasn't sure. Was that like I don't remember Penguin
having a kind of like a circus, the pseudo Joker circus. Feel like,
am I just forgetting that? Or was that supposed to be? Like,
well, the Joker was successful, so maybe I'm gonna do the same
shtick or just the filmmakers were like, we just need more killer clowns because
people are afraid of them and Joker. Yeah, why was Penguin said?
I think rejects like he collects, you know, people who were like rejected,
right, I mean, after after Joker dies, like there's a bunch
of out of work clown terrorists and you know, maybe he made them dress
up like that. I'm not sure, but my favorite of them is the
blind with the little dog. She was the best. She didn't do anything,
she was just there. Oh was she the narrator the the Penguins?
Yeah, one minute away from Penguins? One minute away? Yeah? Yeah,
yeah, that was like I thought, a nice way to put exposition
in y you know, the end, Like usually it feels so awkward and
forced. Here it was awkward, like deliberately like it was like this is
just it fit with the surreal sort of ye you know, the mind controlled
penguins by a little thing on their heads that's never explained in any way,
shape or feeling exactly follow the penguin henchmen are typically like are kind of inconsistent,
like, yeah, you know, they all have henchmen. I feel
like, yeah, everybody's got henchmen, right, Penguin definitely has henchmen,
but sometimes they're more like in business suits and sometimes they're more in clown outfits.
I'm like, what's the difference, you know, it's just an aesthetic
choice. It's I really liked all of his different umbrellas, all the weird
things. You have the hypnotized one, you got the squeaky duck one,
you got the machine gun one, my personal favorite, you got the one
that fly away my pretty you know, you've got the go to Kitty Heaven
and at the end he chooses the wrong I love that scene so much,
and then the penguins come out and they're like they push him in. I
don't know, it doesn't make sense. It's love it. Yeah, I
just love it so much. Destinated a cool drink of ice water so good.
I also just have to say again with a little exposition, Penguin is
thirty three years old in this movie allegedly, and that's I mean, granted,
he's born with flippers, so maybe I shouldn't question his aging process.
But like Danny DeVito was forty five at the time the movie was made,
and he does not look like he's in his therapies. That makeup, like
the makeup, the way they did it, like everything is just really it's
very well done. It really is for the time, and everything, like
I don't know, it is great. It reminds me of the uh Tim
Burton, like the when Geena Davis and what's his face and Beetle Juice when
they pull their monster face, Like his whole nose just looks like that monster
face from Beetlejuice. That's fair. So the last thing I wanted to really
bring up was Gotham itself. We've talked about, how you know, Paul,
you said, like it it's like a hurricane hits every day and it's
so black and white. I want to live there. The thing that I
think I missed about it the first time and when I was younger, Now
this time I really got was I feel like there's kind of you know,
the first movie is kind of a comment on celebrity culture in terms of makeup
and like belief of who's beautiful and stuff. Here, I feel like with
the whole Penguin story, there's really kind of a comment being made about like
how if the people who are thought to be important say this person's good and
wonderful and trustworthy, that the people in the media and the press will just
eat it up. You know. Yeah, like the whole scene of like
him becoming this hero figure when he's so clearly not or even just like,
you know, everyone's so excited to help run his political campaign and he bites
someone's nose off, and they're still just like cool, let's do it.
Like it doesn't sound like anything that happens nowadays, right, Yeah, I
mean ten years ago, I would have said this is ridiculous satire. Today
I'm like, oh, yeah, I know that kind of had a point.
Will look at how fast everyone turned on Batman, like what immediately?
Its pretty telling. Yeah, there's definitely an interesting dynamic there. Yeah.
So in terms of the look and feel of Gotham in this one, like
I still enjoy the aesthetic and the like the lighting and the cinematography are amazing.
Snowy and Christmas, yeah, the snowy this, you know, like
having a season there. I think it's really cool. There's a there's an
animated series, well series, it's two movies. It's like Part one and
part two, The Long Halloween, and it goes through like a year basically,
and so you see all the seasons in Gotham and that you know that
that's aspects really cool. But here the only thing that Gotham felt kind of
smaller to me than the first one and like a little bit less lived in,
Like I think something about having a reporter and the reporters and whatever and
the party, like it felt a little bit more like I felt like I
had a little better idea of like what goes on in Gotham like most of
the time, whereas here it felt like it really was mostly focused on this
small number of characters. I think part of that might be that the original
was filmed in in England and then they filmed this in the US, so
they didn't necessarily use I mean, I think they stored all the sets for
a long time or something, but like studio and like it looks very not
cgi but whatever they would do. I mean, it's technically Rockefeller, you
know, it looks like sets as opposed to like location shots. So I
just feel like Gotham here doesn't breathe quite as much, and maybe he gets
it the Joel Schumacher ones, Ye, it's like this, like this dancing
box from movie to movie. But part part of it, I think is
you kind of brought this up. It feels very surreal, you know,
and like, I'm sure there's better movie making terms for this, but like,
to me, this is a huge range, but I'm gonna kind of
put it into two binaries. I feel like there's a move some movies all
here are things that are happening that you might see with your own eyes,
and we're just pointing a camera at it so you can see the people doing
the things. And then there's other movies where it's like we're gonna make the
lighting and the sets and the camera angles tell the story as much as it
and so like we're not saying that this looks like a real life thing you
would see. It is meant to be surreal. It's meant to be artistic
license and things like that. And I feel like that that that to me,
is exactly what Gotham was, you know what it is. And I
liked a lot of that, but I did feel like it was a little
like having someone tell Burton to maybe be eighty percent instead of one hundred percent.
To Burton is not a bad thing. Yes, this definitely felt like
that thing of like, all right, the editors are no longer worried about
you. You get to do your own thing, and right, maybe those
editors had an idea. And to me, it's not like having twenty percent
less Burton, it's having twenty percent of other stuff that then the very burtany
Burton stuff contrasts with so you get like a little more contrasts. So,
you know, I feel like there are a lot fewer daily light scenes here.
And one of the things I like about daytime scenes in an otherwise dark
movie is then the darkness is darker. Yet for them, that's every time
they show Selena Kyle in the day after she becomes Catwolman, they just put
more and more black makeup under her eye. Yeah, so true. I
will say one thing I really liked in terms of the Batman story is,
you know, it's fairly calmon, especially in this era. For like every
every movie, the male lead has a different love interest, and normally it's
like you know, James Bond movies, I think the King of this,
but a lot of them, like you just completely forget that the last love
interest ever exists, right. I kind of liked that not only does he
mention Ricky Vail, but kind of continuing what we were talking about before in
the last one Paul about him being kind of awkward. He does that thing
you're never supposed to do on an early date of like bringing up his ex
talking about his acts like she did ask no, no, he did bring
it up, right. Yeah, but like even if she don't have to
go into it too much, Yeah, she kind of left me a broken
man and I don't really know what I'm doing anymore. And then this whole
thing about like well it was the true truths and she couldn't reckon Like yeah,
I was like, dude, don't do that. Of course this version
of Bruce would do that, you know, And I just just for the
movie to acknowledge that so much. I was like, Okay, that's kind
of cool. You don't see that very often. She liked it, right
exactly, like he's still so awkward, right, like around women in terms
of like trying like that he's interested in and then he's also so bad at
lying it's a business trip. Yeah. Yeah, No, I mean she
wasn't every matter, but I was like, oh, I've got to go
on a business trip. Yeah, yeah, business trip, and it's like
that's the only thing he can think of, even though apparently he never goes
on business trips. He does all his business in Gotham, But like,
yeah, I enjoyed that awkwardness, and I think what she liked about him
was that he actually was awkward and like honest, you know, and that's
you know what a lot of the advice that people give, oh don't do
this, don't do that, it's like, yeah, I don't know.
I don't think it's necessarily particularly good advice, especially if you're trying to look
for someone that you want to like forge a long term connection with. Like
yeah, he's like, you're kind of dark. Do you want to have
dinner? Right? Exactly? Yeah. I mean like they both like that
about each other. He's miles away from being smooth, and I think she
likes, like Max is smooth. She've seen that fakery and she likes that.
I think a lot about it, but it's just like, like Christian
Bale Batman would never in a million years do this, you know, right?
No, yeah, that also an outcnimated series Batman, I think,
yeah, yeah, in both of those. Also, I think Alfred would
would never would not a cover for him as well, right, like oh
yeah, business trip of course, you know, like's like, oh,
let me show you the bat Cave. I didn't let Vicky bail down in
the bat Cave, right. I love Alfred so much though, like the
Burton Alfred is just like he's my favorite. He's so adorable. Yeah,
he might be the least helpful, but he definitely looks like Alfred though.
I also thought it was interesting that they let him be so very wrong,
like because you were saying, maybe, yeah, this was me as well.
But he gets pulled in by by Penguin at first, like he's telling
Michael Alfred, yeah yeah, he's telling Bruce Wayne like no, just just
let people be happy, you know. So I thought that was kind of
interesting for sure. All Right, Well, so let's kind of the wrap
up question I tend to ask now, is the is this your Batman?
Uh? And since there's not much a Batman. I'm gonna ask you just
for is this your Batman? Is this your Penguin? Is this your cat
Woman? Is this your Gotham? Okay, do you want me to go
first? Yeah it is. Oh, it is my Catwoman. It is
my Penguin. But I don't watch all the animated stuff, so don't judge
me, and we'll see what what's his face does Colin Firth? It's not
my Batman. And I have to say, I really like I do like
the Gotham, but that's just because I like magical whatever you were saying.
Yeah, the Batman and like the the Nolan Batman's the Gotham's cool, but
it's just it's every city put together, right. Yeah. Yeah, this
Gotham visually is very much my Gotham, although I feel like it's very similar
to the first one, and I liked the first one a little better in
that regard, but this one, you know, I mean it's beautiful.
You know, it's beautiful in this like broken down, dark old city kind
of way that like I grew up in Hell's Kitchen, Like yeah, like
I would also live there in you know exactly, Catwoman. I really enjoy
this cat Woman, she's not the Catwoman. That's like my first choice of
like what to see in a Catwoman if she's going to be in more than
one thing. Also, they were going to do a spin off with her
as Catwoman, and then that ended up going through a bunch of rewrites and
a bunch of different potential actresses and ended up being the Halle Berry film.
No. Yeah, but that wasn't at all what they were going to do
with this cat one. And I think having this cat Woman have a spinoff
I think could have been really cool. Yeah, that would have been maybe
something really interesting to see this penguin again kind of like Catwoman, I feel
like, is a great performance of this version of the character, not really
the character I would want to see through a long series of films or TV
shows. I kind of feel like all of the villains here are these super
over the top kind of similarly, you know, quite insane kind of like
as opposed to having these like really different kind of motives from one another.
Totally, it's just pure chaos and it's like it works in the film.
Yeah, But like right, And that's one of the nice things about having
films that are kind of standalones like this, you know you were mentioning it,
does you know? He it does reference Vicky Vale. I hadn't even
remembered that, but I was glad to see that that it didn't have this
like amnesia like a lot of sequels back then usually did. Right, particularly
about you know, female characters, they're like, oh, we're on to
the next one, you know. But like it. I like that there
isn't too much continuity in that. It is like it's just it's its own
movie. And if you love it, you can watch it every Christmas.
Right. If you don't, you don't have to, and you're not gonna
be like, oh, but then I'll miss what happened in the next one.
I won't get the reference. It's like it's fine, you know.
And in terms of Batman, like I think this is like we didn't even
really talk that much about Batman, partially because he wasn't the main character really
in the movie, right, But I feel like Michael Keaton's Batman in the
Tim Burton movies, I feel like these villains would not have worked if you
had, like Christian Bales Batman. I feel like he did what any good
you know, straight man does in a comedy, which is like sort of
you know, set things up and give them room to chew all the furniture
and kind of be a little bit like are you done. Okay, now
we're gonna do this, and you know, and so like in terms of
feel and look like very much my Batman. In terms of tossing people into
pits with explosives and letting them blow up, not so much. Yeah,
I think it's when I was thinking, like, in a lot of ways,
this is this is even less my Batman than the last one. But
also here he's the detective. You know, this is I think I think
of all of the Batman movies, this is the one where he's the most
of a detective. And I do really love that. And part of it's
also because in this one there's nothing whatsoever about him striking fear into the hearts
of you know people, and and like Chris you know, the Christian Bale,
Christopher Noan, that's much more on the like the fear, you know,
theatricality side of things. Yeah. So I guess for me, like
I think this is one of my catwomen. I think this is like you
know that there's a couple of different I think, honestly, I think my
two favorites right now are earth a Kit and then the one from the Harley
Quinn. But this one, I think is another very good portrayal. I
think Michelle Pfeiffer is a fantastic portrayal. And I think this is there's a
part of me that what that like doesn't love the idea that the love interest
is always the one who's going to have more of a sympathetic aspect to their
villainy, and so I think that's kind of why I push back on it
a little bit. But I do think, like you know, avenging,
avenging woman who's been mistreated by her bosses and the men in her life,
Like that's a real story that deserves to get told, and there's some righteousness
anger to that character. I think as much as I love Danny DeVito,
this is very that his role is probably the one that strikes me as the
most off because I think the penguins that I most love, especially from the
Amnide series but also from Gotham and some other things, like like this penguin,
the whole point is like they're trying to make him dignify, but they're
trying to put a monster into a tuxedo like other penguins. He look he
is in a tuxedo. Like. The point is that he is a high
cultured, classical like he knows what fork too, who looks like penguin?
Yeah, yeah, like like Danny Tevito doesn't know what fork to use,
and to me, Penguin should know what fork to use and a fancy dinner.
You know, I think you called it earlier though with it it was
about like society being so easily like, oh, you can take this person
who's not a bad guy, who looks like a monster, you know,
theoretically or whatever, trying to tiptoe and you know, and everyone's like,
yeah, you guys said so, all the celebrities said, so he's a
great guy. And then just like that it turns so it's like almost like
the people of Gotham are almost a villain in this too. Yeah. So
there is a sort of a Philadelphia reference because they have that one statue in
the Rockefeller Center of Gotham of the guy the boxer holding up his fists in
one statue, and that statue was not probably up by the time when that
movie came. Well, so if we go with that further though, if
the if part of the idea is can you put Penguin in a suit?
Everyone believe it? Now? I want the two old guys from Trading Places
to kind of watching it, you know, and uh I owned the Trading
Places and coming to America verse. Yes, yes, that's true. That's
true. And to my mind that I think of themstado to me, they're
kind of live action, right, absolutely funny. We're now way off kilter.
So and any any last comments from either of you about this movie.
I still listen to it and love the Suxie and the Banshee song that they
specifically did for the Masquerade Ball. I feel like the Tim Burton Batman movies
have the best musical soundtracks and like scores of Yeah, so many Batman.
I love the Han Zimmer ones. Let me like correct myself, but I
like like the you get Prince to do every song in your first one,
and then you have like six seeing the Ben Chain and Danny Elfman like just
killing it with this one. I really appreciate the scores. Yeah, and
I kind of like that because Paul you pointed out that in the first movie
it felt like Danny Elfman is writing the music for Batman, and Prince is
writing the music for the Joker, right and so here oh wow, right,
and here it sounds like now it's Danny Effman is again writing the music
for Gotham and Batman, and Susie and the Banshees are writing the music for
Capitolman. So that kind of works. There's if the Selena transformation with the
violins like it must have been. It's such a hard violin noise and just
plucks, but it works so well. But like I remember trying to do
it on my violin and it's just like oe oe, like, oh god,
no, you can't play that note. But somehow they do it and
it makes it sound so magically creepy and beautiful. I just love it.
That's all. That's awesome. All right, Well, thank you buy so
much. Really glad we can make this work. Ashley, What are you
up to these days? Are you podcasting anywhere else these days? Sometimes?
So? You can find me on the MCU cast, the Marvel Cinematic Universe
podcast. We have a very special episode of Superhero Ethics coming out about Jaws,
which will be fun Boba Fett weekly. Not this week for me,
but uh next week I will be back on and Peacemaker on Pandavision. That's
it, Yeah, so much. I think I think the Jaws episode will
come out before this one comes out. But yeah, definitely check out the
Jaws episode. There's a lot of fun. And I will say, if
you enjoyed the Jaws episode, that was one Ashley. Ashley came to me
and said, here are these two guests I have. Here's this idea I
have, so definitely give Ashally Autocratic because I've been one of the best episodes
we've done in WI. Thank you, Zen Bandman. We cannot email you
zen Madman at gmail as apparently whoever has the zen man mail at Gmail account
has been being invited to these podcasts the last couple of months and it's been
getting all of our outlines. But I thank god I'm not profit sharing with
you yet, but but yeah, so tell us more about what these n
Madman is up to these days. The Zen Madman is installing acoustic Foam and
got a lovely new mic that sounds even better and doing a lot of things
to try and get ready to start doing a lot of things. So hopefully
I'll be on Twitch again soon. Zen Madman on Twitch and on Twitter,
not on Gmail. And yeah, yeah, that's that's pretty much what I'm
doing around my card to the shop again. Yeah awesome. Well, thank
you both so much for those who know me, you know, as you
can find my podcasts about this, about Star Wars, but other stuff all
at the Ethical Panda dot com or you can also search for the Echual Panda
on Twitter, Facebook, et cetera. Definitely check the out the shut out,
but most importantly that's the best way we get feedback. We love getting
feedback. We'd love to hear more from you all about what's your how do
you feel about Batman returns? How does this fit into your personal pantheon of
who is your Batman? What do you think of this portrayal of Catwoman of
Penguin, Especially because I think all three of us watched this movie when we
were young. I would really love to hear from people who grew up later
who probably like maybe the Batman from the animated series was your first Penguin and
now went back and watched this one, or like you grew up with the
Catwoman from that series, or the Catwoman from and Hathaway's cat Woman from Dark
Knight, Dark knight rises. You know would love to hear from you.
What do you think of these portrayals right into us? You find all the
ways on the ethical pana dot com. So I having myself Paul Ashley,
thank you all for listening in and have a great day. Dune Dun,
I'm Batman. Missile code to me, deadly if you eat it, even
a kiscobee, even sadly if you mean it. I could. A plan is forming