The Carpentry Show with Robin Clevitt, powered by Festal's new innovative eighteen volt cordless
range from drills to sores, including dust extraction, all powered by eighteen volt
batteries. Discover more at festal dot co dot uk. Right, Welcome to
The Carpentry Show with Festal on Fixed Radio. I'm Robin Clevitt and on today's
show, I'll be asking whether it's okay to do certain things. Okay,
I get asked online all the time for advice and whether it's okay to do
certain business practices within our trade. So I'll set up a few scenarios over
the next hour and explore what the best course of action is in my opinion.
Fix Radio time to crack on. I'm Robin Clevitt and on today's Carpentry
Show, I'm debating whether it's okay to do certain things as a carpenter and
joiner. So, for example, is it okay to ask other carpenters what
they charge in your area? So I think this is a really interesting point
because we've all got mates who are working in the area. I know sometimes
it's quite awkward to ask about money and how much they're charging. Because people
are quite private. But I do really think it's important to keep a handle
on what we're getting away with effectively, because I think that because we're alsoelf
employed, we don't actually have like a community that we all sort of throw
in our ideas in the middle and say, I think that the going rate
should be. We're not a union, okay. And I do think that
it's important to network with your sort of co carpenters and say, I think
it's worth charging two twenty five a day because I've worked out that that is
what I need to charge to make sure I can keep my tool sharp,
make sure I can keep the fuel in the van, the maintenance, and
actually exchange notes because quite a lot of people dictate to us what our day
rate should be. And I think that if we were a little bit more
mindful or business minded and got together and said, look, this is what
it costs us to actually function, I think we could probably push our money
up legitimately. And so I think it's okay to ask over carpenters, okay.
So is it okay to not have branded workwhere and a sign written van.
I think either of these things it's okay. I don't have a sign
written van, but I do have branded workwear, and I do think it's
really smart when you see guys and they've got their own branded workwear, especially
if you're a member of the general public and you've called a firm in and
there's some uniformity across the firm. So if the guys are all wearing the
same kind of trousers, they've got a branded polo shirt or a hoodie or
something like that. I think it's quite nice with regards to a sign written
van. Now, based on the fact that there's so much tool theft,
it's really best that you don't advertise the fact that you are a tradesman,
because we're unfortunate to be able to just leave our vans somewhere. Even in
a car park for fifteen minutes. People have their vans done, so I
know that people say, my van is not sign written, and it's still
been targeted. So I just think that if you're in the kind of business
and you do driveways, for example, you see a lot of sign written
vans who do driveways. They even have big pictures on. I think that
works quite well. When you're parked in a road doing a drive people oh,
look our neighbors having their drive done and you've got a sign written van.
They feel people feel they have the right to contact you. And that's
what marketing is all about. So on marketing, Is it okay to not
have a website or any online presence for my business? Now, this is
a fantastic question, because I used to do page advertisements in the local paper.
I'd have a little tiny one eighth of a column, okay, And
it used to cost me about fifteen pounds a week when I first started,
just to get a little bit of extra work in. It was locksmith in.
It was a recession and it worked for me. So I learned about
advertising, basic advertising. And then my eldest brother, Paul, who's an
absolute genius when it comes to coding computers, he said to me, i'd
say mid nineties, oh you should get a website. And I was like,
website, what are you going on about? And he said, oh,
let me do it. So's so send me some pictures. So I
sent the some pictures and he put together a website for me. And instead
of my phone number on the van, because I did have a sign written
van at the time, I put my website domain name down the top of
the van. We were doing loft conversions in Putney, double part cars in
the road. The people hated the builders turning up in the morning tried to
find a space and squash in between their part cars. But what it did
do was it gave people an opportunity to email me and ask me, oh,
I see you're doing a loft version down the road. How much is
it? And I found that it was a fantastic way of getting new inquiries
without that kind of like people worry about phoning you up. So it really
worked well for me, and that grew into me wanting other online presences.
I think a website isn't as important as Instagram, believe it or not,
because you don't have to maintain a domain name, you don't have to host
it anywhere. You can do all of your direct messages on Instagram. So
I do think an online presence if you're a business, if you're actually going
out there to try and find work, is a good thing. And if
you're listening to the show today and you don't have a website and you don't
have Instagram, you don't like that, but you get enough work, that's
absolutely fine as well. Because as established tradesmen in a environment where we are
short of trade people, I think that you can probably survive without it,
okay. So is it okay in that respect then to not advertise my services
and survive from word of mouth? I would say yes. I've basically said
that in the last part there. I do think it's okay to survive from
word of mouth, because if you're working on your own as a sole trader,
you probably need fifty sixty grands worth of turnover a year. Spread that
among the months, say five to six grand a month of turnover. Is
quite easy to pick up that sort of value of work just through your network.
So I would say it's okay. Is it okay to not do any
training or further development once you've somewhat established yourself? So personally, have I
done much extra training in my career other than working with other fantastic trades people.
That's where you do a lot of learning, but it's unofficial learning.
You learn from experienced people. I haven't done that much. I've done training
which is complementary, So I've actually done training to install MVHR for example,
so all of the duct work and the commissioning. I know it's not carpentry
and jewelery, but actually it was a real carpentry job because we had to
make so many adjustments to the building. It was carpentry, so we might
as well put the system in as well. So that's the kind of training
that I've done as well. But yes, I do think it's important to
keep your right on trends and do training. Is it okay to not have
any workbooks in? Of course, it's okay. The way we work in
the industry is people you don't never know what you're doing next Tuesday, but
someone's always got always rings you up on Monday, don't they. You know,
it's kind of like, oh, I'm going to be doing next week.
Before you know it, someone's called you and so can you jump back
on, get that roof pitched? And before you know it, you've got
six weeks work again. So yes, it's absolutely okay to not have work
books in. And sometimes I don't have workbooks in The Coventry Show on Fix
Radio. This is the Carpentry Show with Festal on Fixed Radio. Today.
I'm asking whether it's okay to do certain things as a carpenter and joiner.
So is it okay to work alone and not bring any subbis or and or
apprentices into your business. It's absolutely fine to work on your own as well,
and sometimes we just need to concentrate, don't we. There are times
where we could really use a pair of hands, you know, the deliveries
turned up and you've got to man handle all that sort of stuff in.
But it's the sort of thing we're used to doing so many many many people
I know, including me, quite a lot of times through my career where
I've had times where someone I'm working with there on holiday and I'm working on
my own, and to be totally honest with you, I absolutely enjoy it
as well, just being in the zone. I've got the headphones on,
I've got the radio going, and it's really nice. So, yes,
it's okay to not bring in any subbies. But if you're in the market
of slightly growing what you do, and if you you know so at the
moment, you might just be doing the carpentry and joinery. Every now and
then someone will say can you come and do my loft conversion, which is
eighty percent carpentry and joinery, But you need all of the subbies, so
you need your plumbing and plumbing and heating, electrical plastering. You also need,
you know, av people, so you do need to bring subbies in.
And even if you don't think are they subbies or are they just my
mates who are coming to help me, they're kind of subbies. Yeah,
you could put them into that category, even though you may not be paying
them directly. Let's say the client is paying them directly, which is what
I prefer because it avoids the unnecessary double taxation or having to run the construction
industry scheme. And if you do that, so you've got subbies working for
you, you know you have to stop their tax. You have to pay
their tax. You have a liability to the inland revenue to pay that tax
and also to your mates who you're bringing in that you've paid it on their
behalf. So I honestly think it's fine to work alone. But it's also
okay to expand and contract as you need to. And as far as apprentices
are concerned, I would encourage anyone working on their own to really find an
opportunity to train someone at least once during your career. If everyone did that
at least once in their career, you could sort of double the workforce just
based on one to one if you know what I mean, and if you
could do it two or three times. I mean, I've done probably fifteen
or twenty apprentices in my career. I've thoroughly enjoyed it. It's had its
moments, but I do think it's important, so bear that in mind.
Is it okay to communicate with customers via text and WhatsApp only? This is
a really good one. This is we're in a transition period now because my
communications with my clients used to be phone to be writing. You'd write an
estimate, you'd type it and send it. They may even respond to you
by writing to say yes, we'd like you to go ahead. You know,
you had that paper trail there, so it was all good. Then
it went to email, and I think email is still for me, i'd
say fifty five sixty percent. And then recently, in the last say five
years, I think that text and WhatsApp is replacing it. But the trouble
with that is you need boundaries because not necessarily with text, but with WhatsApp,
if you open the message, you know the two blue ticks, they've
sin that you sin the message, So then if you don't respond, they're
thinking why hasn't you responded so, And that can be really invasive in our
lives because after six pm at night, I don't really want to be bothered
by anybody. I want to be at home chilling out or you know,
just doing what I need to do without any interruptions. And I think that
the worst thing that really gets me down. We spoke about it before in
the Corpentry Show is where you get these clients on a Sunday afternoon or Sunday
evening, sending you messages, putting you back up, and you're meant to
be relaxing, and next thing you know, you're stressed out and you're not
even started back at work. So yes, communicate with customers via text and
WhatsApp, but manage their expectations as soon as you know, while you're in
that honeymoon period and they're happy to have you, you're happy to be there,
lay your cards on the table and say I'm happy to communicate via text
and WhatsApp, but sometimes I won't answer, especially out of ours, and
I think that that's absolutely acceptable. And from my experience, when you say
that to clients, they don't do it. They don't send you those messages
and they respect it. Is it okay to quote over the phone or from
pictures rather than going and meeting people In some instances less yes. For example,
if you are a carpenter and you just hang doors day in and day
out, you know how many you can do in a day. Roughly,
I know that there's so many variables. If you're a carpenter just hanging doors,
you know that three or four doors a day in the right circumstances is
fine. So in that instance, it's just really not worth going round,
especially if they can just quickly snap a few pictures, maybe with a tape
measure to say that they are standard doors, and you could say, yeap
eighty five pounds a door or whatever. So I would say in those instances
it's fine. However, quite a lot of the time we need to look
and look at exactly what's involved in a job, because even building a petition
wall can have its problems. You know, you'd think you could be able
to quote that pretty easily, but let's say the job is on the fifth
floor, there's no lift, or there's no service lift. Even getting the
material up there could be difficult. It could take longer to get the timber
and the plast board up there. So in that instance, yes, you
need to go and see it, because people have a habit of not telling
you the downsides of things. They just want you to do it from the
upsides, and they never get talked into it's only a day's work, because
you know that they have no idea themselves that it's a day's work. Okay.
Is it okay to shop around or should you build relationships with merchants?
Yes, absolutely shop around, providing you're getting a price like for like,
and also the service is good as well. So I've got relationships with local
builders, merchants, timber merchants, and I'm quite honest with them as well.
Say would you like to price this package of works? And I send
it to two or three, but they all price the same thing, same
specification. If I say it's going to be this type of insulation, that's
the one I want. I don't want them to substitute it with something that
they've gotten the shelf cheaper to win the work. So yes, it's okay,
And I think it's super important to build those relationships with the merchants because
we really do need them, you know. I'm so lucky. Every now
and then I think I need to pop into the merchant on the way home.
They shut at five o'clock, and I say, do me a favor.
Can you just stick two packs of that outside the gate and I'll pick
it up my way back through, And they'll do that for me. And
that's because I've built a relationship with them. So yes, it is okay
to shop around. Definitely, maybe even venture online, but a venture with
caution, because sometimes you may not get the service with a local merchant.
Okay, fixed radio, you're listening to the carpentry show. I'm Robin Clever,
and I've been asking whether it's okay to approach working in our trade in
certain ways. Let's look at the practical side of things now. Is it
okay to allow others to take charge on the site, even if it's your
own job. That's an interesting one, isn't it? And I would say
that I through the years, I really enjoy it when I've got a team
of guys with me. Let's take Ed for example. He's been with me
nearly three years learning his craft, and every now and then I'll see this
flash of inspiration where he literally starts to take charge it's like a natural progression.
Now. Personally, for Ed, he's brave. He's always been very
brave, always been prepared to, you know, challenge me or maybe why
don't we do it? And he comes up with some great ideas, and
I think that you should never hold that back. You should never try to
say now it's my way or the highway, because you know it's counterproductive.
We want people around us to be better than us. We want people to
be able to deal with things, even if we have to nip down the
road. You come back and they say, this is what happened, this
is what we did, and you've got to be prepared to let them make
their decisions. So, yes, it is okay to allow others to take
charge on site. And quite often, for example, let's say I've got
my subbies in. Let's say I've got a gang of brick is in and
we are doing the brick work up to plate height. I would often let
them run and control the pace on site because we're secondary at that point.
We might be going preparing some timberwork, cutting the joist, but we'll be
out the way, we won't be in their way. And if they say
it's tea break. It's tea break, you know, and that sort of
stuff. So I do think, yes, it's okay to allow others to
take charger and site. It boils down to relationships, boils down to trust.
But I do think that there's you know, for a happy, well
run site, you need to share responsibility, okay, So is it okay
to debate the approach or plans, for example, when you're not in charge?
Again, that can be quite annoying. So let's say you've got someone
and as soon as you walk out of the room, they turn around to
everyone else and they go, oh, you don't know what he's talking about.
We shouldn't do it like this. We should do a lot of this.
My mate's done it like this for years. It's so much quicker.
You can't. You know, that's not the right way of going about things.
What you should do in that instance, if you think you've got a
better approach, if you think you're going to get the job done better,
faster, safer, cleaner, you should then make the right approach. Providing
their approachable. You should say to your governor or the boss, or the
foreman or the site agent, we need to consider doing it like this because
chances are once you've explained it and they say, oh, you're going to
save me free mandays here, they should be fairly pleased. I like to
remember that. Sean the story. Sean Matthew says, when he was an
apprentice, he was in a big church and they had this huge limestone column
going up to the roof, and they wanted to support it put some foundations
underneath, and they were all scratching their heads engineers. He made the right
suggestion of making a whole all the way through it, posting through a needle,
jacking it up, and he was brave enough to do it. Not
only did they do it, they gave him a one hundred and fifty pounds
bonus for that. So I do think it's okay to debate the approach or
the plans when you're not in charge. Is it okay to have several jobs
running at once? Or that scares me because I've been there. I've had
times in my career where I've scaled up and I've had proper employees. I've
had office people and we've been doing insurance work, local authority work, private
client work, and sometimes we'd have twenty or thirty files open at once.
Some would be starting, some would be finishing, some would be halfway through.
And it is a real I'm not going to say it any other way.
You've got so many people. You've got logistics, all the logistics,
you've got the weather, you've got the suppliers, you've got your men,
you've got your clients, you've got the local authority, building control, you've
got health and safety. There is so much. The taxman, the accountant,
you've got lawyers involved, and it is really hard. So having several
jobs running at once. If, for example, you're doing first fix and
second fix carpentry, it's quite common to be doing a first fix on one
job, pulling off, going to do second fix on another job, or
a new first fixed job. So in that case, yes, it's absolutely
fine to have several jobs running at once, providing that you're finishing enough work
that you can raise an invoice and get paid. Because sometimes we fall into
the trap of working on a job they say can you come in for a
couple of days, get the linings in. You put the linings in,
then you disappear. Then you come back and you think, oh, I
raise an invoice, and before you know it, you know It's kind of
like that work that you priced for for say ten man days, done over
five weeks, and that ten man days has sort of been swallowed up,
so it doesn't feel like you really made much money on the job. So
in that respect, be really careful, tread really careful. It's really nice
to be able to start a job and finish the job, quite like the
furniture side of the business, where you can go and measure something back to
the workshop, make it, go out and deliver it and fix it up
and get paid. So those types of jobs are nice, aren't they.
Is it okay to avoid risk assessments, safety protocols if you're working alone?
Okay, so the health and safety I'm going to sort of remember this from
my mind, but there are rules around what you should and shouldn't do.
Obviously, we should practice safe work in that is the first rule. And
risk assessments. Now, generally speaking, if you're doing a job and it's
under thirty man days, then it falls just outside of having to notify the
HS. Believe it or not, it's only thirty man days. It may
have changed, but that's what it you to be. So if you're doing
a loft conversion and it's going to be fifty man days, which just basically
it could easily be fifty man days. You should be notifying the HS to
say this work is taking place, but it's very rarely done in the domestic
market. I think as a trades person you should literally be risk assessing the
whole time. The whole time you're at work. You should be saying things
like, is it safe for me to make this cut? This material in
here? Is this does safe? Is it going to contaminate me? Is
it going to contaminate anyone else? Is this step ladder safe? Should I
be standing up here? Should I be drilling that? Because it's for our
own good as well. So I do think that as soon as you've got
a few bodies around you on site, you really do need to think about
it and whether you go to the formality of writing out risk assessments, because
quite a lot of it is copy and pasted to suit a project and put
to one side that you've got it. I think it's really important that you
do this all the time in the back of your mind, and you encourage
your lads to do it as well. If it's a sample they're doing something
and all of a sudden, they're generating us. You don't realize it half
the time because you started it was clean, get the masks on, get
the goggles on, and do all of those sorts of things. And I
know we're talking about working alone, but I think that even more so when
you're working on your own, because let's take the scenario you slip put a
circular saw through your artery and your leg, which has been done many many
times. You might not even get to your phone in time before you're in
big trouble and you're losing a lot of blood. So yes, be careful
when you're working alone. Is it okay to leave your tools on site overnight
and at weekends? I prefer it sometimes because if it's a client's house,
very rarely are they going to get a visit from torthe's unless they're scaffolds everywhere
and it's unsecure, there's no doors and windows. People may do a visit.
But yes, if they've got a garage which is secure, I think
it's better to leave them in there because you haven't got sticking back in the
van. You haven't got to get them home, you haven't got to get
them out. You haven't got to put them back in the morning, and
it's quite nice to be able to lock them up. Or if you've got
one of those steel site boxes, take that on site put all your valuables
in there. And I know that what I used to do when I have
the steel box, because everything, every tool has got a box, hasn't
it. I'd take everything out, put all the tools in so they fit,
and then you put the boxes to one side, so the boxes are
empty. All your sustainers, for example, are empty. So is it
okay to quit a job in the middle if the customer's a nightmare? Oh
that's a really good question. Now. Just yesterday I was driving out of
my gate and one of my neighbors was walking his dog and he's flagged me
down. I just thought he was waving and saying hello, but he flagged
me down, and he gave me a sheet of paper with a handwritten note
saying his friend in Guilford, not far from me, has had his roofing
carpenter walk off the job. He's got a Ruth Tyler booked in a week's
time. Can I do anything to help? And of course I can't.
I'm just kind of like you know busy f for thee you know, I
don't often have immediate downtime. I do do it for really close mates.
If someone's in trouble, I can drop what I'm doing and my clients would
understand that too, But not this case. Now. Straight away, all
I want to know is I'm I'm like an old gossip. Then I want
to know what happened. Why did they walk off? Because not because you
know, I don't know, not because of the fought with the tradesman.
I always want to see if the customer was at FOT was that customer a
nightmare, because some customers can be an absolute nightmare. I was watching someone
on YouTube, a member of the public, talking about insulation, and he
was going on about he used something called chat GTP, which I realize now
is some sort of I don't know, artificial intelligence to work out how to
do insulating and how much he should put in. And I was thinking,
hold on a minute, these educated people with degrees who are now dabbling in
construction are trying to outwit all of us trades people, and that can make
someone a real nightmare, you know the type when they turn up and go
hmm, that timber should be slightly closer to that one because the regulation says
they don't understand, you know, the broad variation of tolerance, for example,
and they might give us a load of git and a lot of times
I know a lot of guys who just won't take it. They don't need
it, they don't need any aggravation. They'd sooner walk off the job,
lose a day's pay and go. And yes, it's nothing wrong with it
providing you in the right, but it's always good to, you know,
to make sure that they realize you in your right, because there's nothing worse
than if they start bad mouthing you to other people as well, because that's
just out of order. So and you often hear that, don't use a
cowboy builders, but we've got cowboy customers. I know some of my other
co presenters here at Fix Radio have talked about cowboy customers. You hear it
mentioned a lot, and sometimes it just boils down to why I'm always going
on about, is managing expectations. If that customer is moaning because you never
showed up on Monday, they had no idea that your wife, who's also
got a full time job, had to go to work. She could not
be there. She's a teacher and your little one was poorly You had to
stay at home. When you've got a poorly child, you haven't got time
to start phoning people up. You think, oh, so last time you
know. I'm self employed. I don't actually need to be on his job.
But because he doesn't know that you might not show up, that's when
the trouble begins. So manage expectations. Anyway. I'll finish with a few
about lifestyle and our personal lives as carpenters and trades people before the end of
the show here on Fix Radio, the Builder's Station, The Carpentry Show Monday
from three and catch up anytime at Fixradio dot co dot uk, the Builders
Station Fix Radio. That's almost it for today's Carpentry Show, where I've explored
whether it's okay to do certain things within our trade. So let's finish with
some scenarios we all might face in our personal life. So is it okay
to take random days and weeks off even if we've been sort of work booked
in but don't feel up to it? I think like me. If you
listen to the Painting and Decorating Show here on Fix Radio, last week,
Todd von Joel actually opened the show with his intro all about this very subject,
and he went into some detail about how he felt that he woke up
one morning and he just thought, I know what's coming. This was his
words, I know what's coming. I've got pressure from here, I've got
pressure from there. And if I don't take a day off and recognize that
I just can't do anything today. I know what's going to You know,
I might, it might get too much for me. So yes, it's
absolutely okay to take random days off. We have to police our own lives
and even weeks if you need it and you can afford it. I know
this is another thing because you get the pressure of you've got the word of
living and all the rest of it. But I do think it's really important
to actually benefit from the being self employed. But as I mentioned before,
many times, manage people's expectations. So if you know you've got a client
who's not going out because they're expecting you because you don't they don't let their
dog run out all over the place, tell them you're not coming in because
they'll say first thing they'll say to you is, oh, you should have
told me I wasn't coming in. I've been waiting in all day, and
it puts their backs up, and it puts your backs up. So yes,
I think that it is okay to take time off. We need to
do it. But even if we've got work booked in and we don't feel
like to it, Yes, of course it is. Is it okay to
drink alcohol every day in moderation? Look, I'm not your GP. But
if you go to the GP and ask that question, he is going to
say, of course, not okay. He's only got that line. He's
not allowed to say it's okay. And I'm not going to sit here and
say it's okay as well, because you know, I think all of us
as adults, especially me, I'm in my fifties, it's the danger zone.
Apparently it's the middle classes who are drinking in their fifties and more and
more and more. And you often hear this actually in the media about you
know, alcohol, subtle alcohol abuse, and even me, I've got an
addictive personality. So you know, I was a smoker at sort of when
I left school, and before I left school, I was smoking, walking
the streets, I was drinking, I was doing the only thing I didn't
do was drugs. I couldn't get into that, didn't want to get into
that. But alcohol, Yeah, it scares me a little bit, in
fact, because I absolutely love a beer, and sometimes you associate a good
time with a beer and you struggle to have a good time if you don't
have a beer. So yeah, I think it's dangerous to say yes,
it's okay in moderation. However, there are probably people listening to this could
quite easily open a small can of beer, drink it with their dinner and
have no more. But personally, I think to myself, I like to
save it for the weekends, something to look forward to. And you know,
they say you're only allowed to drink fourteen units as a man, it's
a safe level. I'm still not sure is that a day or is that
in the whole week. Anyway, someone will let me know, Okay,
is it okay to work weekends when you have family at home? Oh?
This is Anyone who's self employed knows that this subject is awkward because obviously our
families really want us to spend time with them, and we want to spend
time with our families. But quite often if the job taken longer, like
we've had these storms in the last couple of weeks. Sometimes you need to
go in and fill your week up. You need to get the work finished
on the Saturday, maybe the Sunday morning. And I hate that as well.
When you think, right, I'm going to go in Saturday morning,
don't worry, I've got to go in. I'll be home by one o'clock.
And three o'clock comes and you're clearing up and you think, actually,
that's my day gone, and you get home. You've got sad faces or
you've got you know, like your partner's quiet because she's like, well,
you said you'd be home at one o'clock. And it's difficult. It really
really is difficult. And all of us will go through this, I guarantee
it. And if you if you're lucky enough that you can earn enough every
day from Monday to Friday, then yes, isn't it fantastic to spend as
much time as you can at home with your family? Okay, well let's
close on that one. Then you can hear this show again from ten pm
with more great music right here on fixed Radio. This and all of my
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