WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.520 --> 00:00:04.480 Hey, Shelly. On today's episode, we have a special guest once again. 2 00:00:05.599 --> 00:00:08.160 Are you gonna say something this? Sorry when you say something, No, 3 00:00:08.199 --> 00:00:12.359 I'm laughing because we actually just recorded this like three minutes ago, and 4 00:00:12.400 --> 00:00:16.120 I fucking went off about something that needs to be in scandals and a dandled 5 00:00:16.480 --> 00:00:18.879 session, scandal sessions, and I gave a little too much information. So 6 00:00:18.960 --> 00:00:21.160 Mary's like, I don't know if we want that out in the public. 7 00:00:21.480 --> 00:00:25.359 H So we're doing a duover. This is take two on an intro. 8 00:00:25.760 --> 00:00:28.920 Good God, and welcome to our lives. Anyway, Mary, carry on 9 00:00:29.000 --> 00:00:32.039 with the intro. I haven't had enough coffee for this. No. Yeah, 10 00:00:32.079 --> 00:00:38.200 Today we are interviewing author Chris Davis, whose book is called Worthy, 11 00:00:38.479 --> 00:00:42.799 The Memoir of an Ex Mormon Lesbian. Actually, I'm not sure how new 12 00:00:42.799 --> 00:00:45.840 it is anymore, because we are really behind in our recording schedule. It's 13 00:00:46.000 --> 00:00:48.560 relatively new, I would say, like in the last year. It's pretty 14 00:00:48.600 --> 00:00:53.439 new. Sure doesn't make it any less of a phenomenal book and make Chris 15 00:00:53.719 --> 00:00:56.840 have any less of an amazing story that she tells. Yeah, and how 16 00:00:56.840 --> 00:01:00.560 about that word worthy? Huh? Fuck it, fuck that word. And 17 00:01:00.600 --> 00:01:04.280 that's how I started going off what we recorded three minutes ago, which will 18 00:01:04.319 --> 00:01:08.040 be on Scandal Sessions. Thanks for getting that name right, appreciate that. 19 00:01:08.519 --> 00:01:14.879 And we decided to use the word worthy and incorporate that in patron names at 20 00:01:14.879 --> 00:01:18.560 the end about how people are worthy. Yeah, it seems like we've been 21 00:01:18.640 --> 00:01:22.280 very negative lately with the patron names. We're like, all right, we're 22 00:01:22.280 --> 00:01:26.400 gonna go with things that God hates. We're gonna go with with why you 23 00:01:26.560 --> 00:01:29.359 suck. We're gonna go yes, yes, we're flipping that around it. 24 00:01:29.599 --> 00:01:32.200 Yeah. Yeah, we need smell uplifting patron name. Anyone who has a 25 00:01:32.200 --> 00:01:34.239 ship, patron name, whatever, just just do the opposite. Just decide 26 00:01:34.280 --> 00:01:38.640 what the exact opposite is. Yeah, and maybe Shelley can mute her device. 27 00:01:38.760 --> 00:01:41.959 I knew that was coming. Where's my phone? Hang on, but 28 00:01:42.000 --> 00:01:45.920 we're gonna take a break, yeah and be right back. Yep, be 29 00:01:46.040 --> 00:01:55.480 right back. Hey, everybody, Welcome to Ladder Day Lesbian, the podcast 30 00:01:55.480 --> 00:01:57.799 about an ex Mormon gay girl just trying to figure out her life. My 31 00:01:57.879 --> 00:02:02.640 name is Mary, my name is and life is not figured out and it 32 00:02:02.840 --> 00:02:07.599 just keeps getting more complicated and weird. But you know what, that's what 33 00:02:07.680 --> 00:02:10.159 life is about. It was easy I mean, it'd be fucking awesome if 34 00:02:10.159 --> 00:02:15.319 it was easy. Not gonna lie, but yeah, yeah it's not easy. 35 00:02:15.159 --> 00:02:19.759 So Shelley, Yes, we have a very special guest today. Yeah, 36 00:02:19.800 --> 00:02:22.400 we do. I love doing interviews, by the way, If I 37 00:02:22.439 --> 00:02:24.639 do, I do, And I'm super pumped about this one because, uh, 38 00:02:24.680 --> 00:02:30.520 this person that we're interviewing has been a long time LDL listener and she 39 00:02:30.680 --> 00:02:35.560 started at episode one. So she follows directly. She follows directions, at 40 00:02:35.599 --> 00:02:37.960 least my directions. I don't know about other directions, but anyway, Mary, 41 00:02:37.960 --> 00:02:40.479 go ahead introduc her. Well, today we have Chris Davis. So, 42 00:02:40.680 --> 00:02:46.439 Chris is the author of Worthy, The Memoir of an Ex Mormon Lesbian, 43 00:02:47.159 --> 00:02:52.199 and welcome Chris. First of all, welcome to Lattery Lesbian. Thank 44 00:02:52.240 --> 00:02:53.919 you. I'm thrilled to be here. Rack, we are so happy to 45 00:02:53.919 --> 00:02:58.560 have you. I want to read the blurb that is also, did you 46 00:02:58.599 --> 00:03:00.120 say on the inside cover of the book, on the book jacket or something? 47 00:03:00.199 --> 00:03:02.719 Yeah, it depends on which version you get. Yes, okay, 48 00:03:04.080 --> 00:03:06.719 well we're going to set it up with this, but there's so much more 49 00:03:06.759 --> 00:03:09.039 to the story, and that's why Chris is just gonna tell us the story 50 00:03:09.280 --> 00:03:15.560 in her words. So Chris Davis was a lifelong devout Mormon who checked all 51 00:03:15.639 --> 00:03:20.080 the expected boxes of wife, mother, teacher, leader, follower, and 52 00:03:20.240 --> 00:03:24.280 believer until twenty twenty, when she left her family and her church to fulfill 53 00:03:24.319 --> 00:03:30.759 her own personal destiny as a gay woman and independent thinker. She remains close 54 00:03:30.800 --> 00:03:35.319 with her two adult children, one of whom is a believing member of the 55 00:03:35.439 --> 00:03:39.439 church, and the other who is a transgender man who has also left the 56 00:03:39.599 --> 00:03:44.120 church. So, Chris Davis, Welcome to Lettery Lesbie. I think I 57 00:03:44.199 --> 00:03:46.840 said that allreaday, but I want to say real quickly, I think of 58 00:03:46.919 --> 00:03:53.199 three words when you read that intro brave as fock, totally yes, totally 59 00:03:53.439 --> 00:03:58.599 thanks and I was tempted to correct Mormon to a Church of Jesus christis the 60 00:03:58.639 --> 00:04:00.159 Latterday? Say its? I mean, who's with me? Who's with me? 61 00:04:00.199 --> 00:04:09.639 It's a win win for Satan. Good job Rusty's going to be when 62 00:04:09.639 --> 00:04:13.439 he reads this, Not that he's going to read it, but I'll give 63 00:04:13.479 --> 00:04:15.279 him a call. I'll be like, Yo, Rusty, Chris just fucked 64 00:04:15.319 --> 00:04:18.279 up the title. You got him on your speed out? Okay, yeah, 65 00:04:18.279 --> 00:04:20.800 absolutely, I do. Was it? Wait a minute, was it? 66 00:04:20.879 --> 00:04:24.399 Russell M. Nelson who thought it was a win for Satan or something. 67 00:04:24.600 --> 00:04:26.959 Noah, he was the one, right, Yeah, after billions of 68 00:04:27.000 --> 00:04:30.480 dollars spent on the I Am a Mormon campaign from the previous in Quotations profit. 69 00:04:30.519 --> 00:04:32.560 But we're not we're not going to talk about that. It's whatever. 70 00:04:33.480 --> 00:04:38.959 Yeah, we digressed very quickly already as a matter of fact. So Chris, 71 00:04:39.000 --> 00:04:43.120 okay, you have this story, and I want you to tell it. 72 00:04:43.120 --> 00:04:47.920 I'm sort of summing it up. Where you had decided to stay in 73 00:04:48.199 --> 00:04:54.720 a life that was making you miserable. That was the decision you were you 74 00:04:54.720 --> 00:04:57.600 were going to make until you're one of your children was seventeen? Is that 75 00:04:57.639 --> 00:05:00.959 the story? Yeah, he was fifteen when he came out to Yeah, 76 00:05:00.959 --> 00:05:03.600 okay, actually, in the same conversation that he came out to me as 77 00:05:03.759 --> 00:05:09.040 trans or as non binary at the time, I came out to him as 78 00:05:09.079 --> 00:05:12.000 a closeted lesbian. Oh my god, that's oh wow. I love it. 79 00:05:12.360 --> 00:05:15.319 And then I'm coming out and then you're coming out, wells coming out. 80 00:05:15.680 --> 00:05:21.040 Everybody's gay in a perfect world. So why don't you back it up 81 00:05:21.040 --> 00:05:24.759 and let's hear a little bit about you know, kind of your upbringing. 82 00:05:25.160 --> 00:05:30.600 The whole getting married. Yeah, because deciding to stay in a life that 83 00:05:30.720 --> 00:05:34.600 makes you miserable. Uh, and but you have to for some reason. 84 00:05:34.720 --> 00:05:40.720 And then at this point, I'm going to die by suicide. So trigger 85 00:05:40.759 --> 00:05:47.079 warning, trigger warning to listeners. If suicidal ideation is difficult for you, 86 00:05:47.639 --> 00:05:55.399 then consider skipping this episode or just skip not just self care. You take 87 00:05:55.399 --> 00:06:00.439 care of you. We understand. Okay, so that was the decision you 88 00:06:00.480 --> 00:06:02.680 had come to, So we want to hear about what led up to the 89 00:06:02.720 --> 00:06:05.120 point that, you know what, this is just my life and this is 90 00:06:05.120 --> 00:06:09.439 what I got to deal with. And uh but wait, I want to 91 00:06:09.439 --> 00:06:14.040 hear about the decision to get married, like that's a big thing for tell 92 00:06:14.120 --> 00:06:18.560 us the day you were born? What was that like, your great pup? 93 00:06:20.399 --> 00:06:23.879 Sorry, married, But it's interesting to me. Can we go to 94 00:06:23.920 --> 00:06:29.000 the pre existence for a second. Clearly she was a valiant spirit because she's 95 00:06:29.040 --> 00:06:39.560 here and she's not of another race other than white. Although you are gay 96 00:06:39.639 --> 00:06:45.759 some men, I want to know because I do think that women and men 97 00:06:45.800 --> 00:06:49.680 whatever within the church, even though they already like know that there's somehow queer, 98 00:06:50.040 --> 00:06:53.319 there's still this pressure to get married. So I want to know about 99 00:06:53.319 --> 00:06:57.680 the marriage first. Okay, so let's go back to my paycheck of blessing 100 00:06:57.720 --> 00:07:00.319 when I was seventy. There we go. Oh nice, that's always a 101 00:07:00.319 --> 00:07:02.319 good place to start. So hang on, I'm interjecting again. So for 102 00:07:02.319 --> 00:07:05.040 those of you who are brand new and chose not to start at the beginning, 103 00:07:05.279 --> 00:07:10.560 A, I'm angry at you. But b A patriarchal blessing is a 104 00:07:10.600 --> 00:07:15.480 fake blessing given to you by a man who's somehow an authority. That basically 105 00:07:15.720 --> 00:07:19.639 is like reading the eight ball kind of thing, and they just make shit 106 00:07:19.759 --> 00:07:24.160 up. And we've had a lot of people send their blessings in and they're 107 00:07:24.240 --> 00:07:27.439 very, very similar. There's certain things are supposed to say. But as 108 00:07:27.480 --> 00:07:30.160 a believer, you're like, oh, this is my destiny. This is 109 00:07:30.240 --> 00:07:32.920 exactly what God would tell me. Okay, yes, exactly. I call 110 00:07:32.959 --> 00:07:38.519 it like an oracle. There you go. Yeah. So I had already 111 00:07:38.560 --> 00:07:42.879 decided by seventeen that I was not going to have children, and I was 112 00:07:42.959 --> 00:07:47.040 questioning, you know, my future, my sexuality, my interests, and 113 00:07:47.519 --> 00:07:51.879 I was just sublimating all of that for the church. So in my patriarchal 114 00:07:51.920 --> 00:07:57.360 blessing, it says clearly several times that I will get married to a man 115 00:07:57.560 --> 00:08:01.120 that he will take me to the temple a righteous priest, and that we 116 00:08:01.199 --> 00:08:05.759 will have children, and that we will I will raise these children in my 117 00:08:05.920 --> 00:08:09.879 earth life. And I was cress fun, no pressure, and no pressure. 118 00:08:09.959 --> 00:08:13.720 Exactly when when the blessing was over, the patriarch kind of just did 119 00:08:13.720 --> 00:08:16.360 an aside and he said, I hope you like children, because you're going 120 00:08:16.399 --> 00:08:20.040 to have them, Oh my god. And I was like, oh, 121 00:08:20.120 --> 00:08:26.199 no fucker. And so actually I remember on my mission like standing in front 122 00:08:26.199 --> 00:08:31.120 of the old, dilapidated microwave, hoping that it would make me sterile. 123 00:08:31.759 --> 00:08:35.120 Oh wow, I don't mean to laugh. It's funny, but it's not 124 00:08:35.159 --> 00:08:39.759 funny, right, I mean, it reveals a lot. But yeah, 125 00:08:39.879 --> 00:08:45.200 yeah, So did you you knew by then already that you are you in 126 00:08:45.200 --> 00:08:48.039 inklings, that you were a lesbian or how did that work for you? 127 00:08:48.279 --> 00:08:50.799 Yeah? I started. I got introduced to the idea when I was about 128 00:08:50.840 --> 00:08:56.480 seven in first grade, and then it was always in my head. But 129 00:08:58.159 --> 00:09:01.200 you know, I started going to church at more regularly at nine, ten, 130 00:09:01.279 --> 00:09:05.080 eleven, twelve, and those are formative years, and I heard messages 131 00:09:05.120 --> 00:09:09.159 that were very much against that kind of thing, and so I was like, 132 00:09:09.200 --> 00:09:11.399 Oh, that can't be me, that can't apply to me. I'm 133 00:09:11.440 --> 00:09:18.840 a good girl, you know, But it did. Yes, the decision 134 00:09:18.879 --> 00:09:24.399 to go on a mission was that all related to fixing anything. It was 135 00:09:24.440 --> 00:09:26.519 in my paytarch a blessing that I would serve a mission. And I was 136 00:09:26.559 --> 00:09:31.440 already dating the man who would become my husband. I had been dating him 137 00:09:31.480 --> 00:09:35.000 for a little bit and he wasn't ready to get married, and so I 138 00:09:35.039 --> 00:09:37.200 was like, Okay, I guess I'm going to serve my mission now instead 139 00:09:37.240 --> 00:09:41.000 of when we're old together. You know, Oh God, I have that 140 00:09:41.120 --> 00:09:45.440 in my blessing about serving a mission. And I also assumed that it was 141 00:09:45.559 --> 00:09:48.039 that Brent and I would serve missions when we were old. Don't you love 142 00:09:48.080 --> 00:09:54.360 hows like some random church oracle. Basically, we'll run your life against what 143 00:09:54.679 --> 00:09:58.440 you feel inside. It was heartbreaking. It was heart wrenching actually, because 144 00:09:58.480 --> 00:10:01.919 I was, you know, at an age where I'm trying to learn how 145 00:10:01.960 --> 00:10:05.080 to listen to my own intuition and listen to my own feelings and thoughts. 146 00:10:05.240 --> 00:10:07.679 But I had to converse oh no, no, no them and shut them 147 00:10:07.679 --> 00:10:13.159 down. I mean, are Mormons really encouraged to follow their own thoughts? 148 00:10:13.399 --> 00:10:18.480 No, not if they go against the teachings. And if they go against 149 00:10:18.519 --> 00:10:20.799 the teachings, your bishop will tell you, well, you need to keep 150 00:10:20.919 --> 00:10:24.679 praying and asking for answers that go along with the teachings. That exactly That's 151 00:10:24.679 --> 00:10:28.559 what they told me. That was part of the trans conversation too, when 152 00:10:28.600 --> 00:10:35.279 my son came out. What if you just feel like you never get those 153 00:10:35.480 --> 00:10:39.200 answers that line up, well, then the priest did will tell you what 154 00:10:39.240 --> 00:10:41.000 they are. I'd say, you don't get to go on your own. 155 00:10:41.120 --> 00:10:43.320 Come on, you can, actually, if you're a woman, get over 156 00:10:43.360 --> 00:10:48.639 here. You just convince yourself for yes, spirits, because if you have 157 00:10:48.720 --> 00:10:52.639 authority above you that supposedly is connected to God and talking to them all the 158 00:10:52.639 --> 00:10:56.840 time, then clearly you are not capable of getting any kind of inspiration or 159 00:10:56.879 --> 00:11:00.799 having self thought, and so you doubt you're sin off and you go with 160 00:11:00.840 --> 00:11:05.440 what the priest holder says. Yeah, yes, And these priesthood blessings, 161 00:11:05.440 --> 00:11:07.840 don't they all pretty much say go on a mission and get married and have 162 00:11:07.879 --> 00:11:13.879 lots of kids. I didn't know that. Yeah. Again, we've had 163 00:11:13.879 --> 00:11:16.919 people send theirs in him like, oh shit, this is the same thing. 164 00:11:18.279 --> 00:11:24.639 I thought it was personal and the same patriarch is like, all right, 165 00:11:24.679 --> 00:11:31.120 who's next, and YadA YadA, mission be faithful. Yeah anyway, 166 00:11:31.240 --> 00:11:35.399 sorry, okay, carry on. That was a nice side about blessings. 167 00:11:35.960 --> 00:11:41.360 So I came home from my mission and decided that I needed to be like 168 00:11:41.840 --> 00:11:46.480 as as my mission president put it, anxiously engaged in trying to find a 169 00:11:48.480 --> 00:11:52.600 you know, a husband and make a commitment with him. And so it 170 00:11:52.679 --> 00:11:56.080 was another couple of years though, before he was ready. And so I 171 00:11:56.120 --> 00:11:58.840 was dating other people, and I was I was engaged to someone else, 172 00:12:00.080 --> 00:12:05.159 and I got disengaged, and it finally, you know, came together. 173 00:12:05.799 --> 00:12:09.600 Tell me about the attraction lack you know, traction or lack thereof for the 174 00:12:09.600 --> 00:12:11.879 people that you were dating. Mostly it was just based on does he like 175 00:12:11.960 --> 00:12:16.720 me? Is he interested in me? Would he have me for a wife? 176 00:12:16.600 --> 00:12:20.080 So he gets the power, that's the same boat I was in. 177 00:12:20.159 --> 00:12:24.320 He he gets the power to decide if I am worthy to be his exactly. 178 00:12:24.519 --> 00:12:28.679 Not so fucked up? Okay, God, you know, I will 179 00:12:28.759 --> 00:12:33.759 have to say that as a gay or queer person, Mormonism is kind of 180 00:12:33.759 --> 00:12:39.720 a good bet before you're married, because there's really no expectation to have premarital 181 00:12:39.799 --> 00:12:45.440 sex. You know what I mean. So, I mean, yeah, 182 00:12:45.480 --> 00:12:50.679 that's a weird I mean until until the marriage happened. It's a weird pro 183 00:12:54.200 --> 00:12:58.679 and it makes up for everything you can't just kick the marriage can down the 184 00:12:58.759 --> 00:13:05.919 road, huh. And it's a perfect religion for you if you don't want 185 00:13:05.960 --> 00:13:09.519 to have sex before you're eighteen, because that's when people get married. Yeah, 186 00:13:09.559 --> 00:13:13.240 you're good to go, although they still do. But whatever, good 187 00:13:13.279 --> 00:13:24.840 input Mary Jesus leave. We won't ask Chris to describe any of that. 188 00:13:24.320 --> 00:13:28.720 I mean, if you want. I was in provo. Yes, oh 189 00:13:28.799 --> 00:13:33.240 shit, I don't think. I don't think the when the push wasn't around 190 00:13:33.279 --> 00:13:35.480 back then. It was No, I didn't know about it. I mean 191 00:13:35.480 --> 00:13:39.440 it probably happened, but they didn't name it. Okay, anyway, So 192 00:13:39.480 --> 00:13:45.759 you're your og boyfriend decides to ask you to marry him two years left, 193 00:13:46.000 --> 00:13:48.440 you were ready? Yeah, tell us about how you felt about that. 194 00:13:48.879 --> 00:13:52.519 So, I actually it was weird because I I had gotten inspiration in the 195 00:13:52.519 --> 00:13:56.440 temple that I needed to move back to New England, That's where I'm from. 196 00:13:56.480 --> 00:14:00.519 I was really strong and I was like, Okay, maybe I'll be 197 00:14:00.559 --> 00:14:05.159 a hot commodity there's an RM a return missionary and maybe, you know, 198 00:14:05.200 --> 00:14:07.799 maybe that's where my future lies. This is what God is telling me. 199 00:14:07.440 --> 00:14:15.000 And so I shared that with my now ex now X gotcha. He took 200 00:14:15.039 --> 00:14:18.399 me to the park and gave me two dozen roses and said, please don't 201 00:14:18.600 --> 00:14:22.919 move to New England. And I said, if I stay, I have 202 00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:26.799 to believe something is going to happen, like, you know, progress in 203 00:14:26.840 --> 00:14:31.440 our relationship. Because he was kind of stalled and he said, I know, 204 00:14:31.840 --> 00:14:35.840 and he bowed his head. And so the next day I was like, 205 00:14:35.879 --> 00:14:37.840 where are we going to shop for rings? There? You go? 206 00:14:39.120 --> 00:14:43.480 Wow, isn't it interesting? Sorry, I'm gonna interject real quick. So 207 00:14:43.679 --> 00:14:48.000 in the temple you received inspiration, and I think it's interesting. I mean, 208 00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:52.960 I don't hold any weight of temple anything in my mind, but your 209 00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:58.159 inspiration was directly focused on you needing to find someone that will marry you. 210 00:14:58.799 --> 00:15:01.759 Yeah, I mean nothing else. It wasn't like where should I go to 211 00:15:01.799 --> 00:15:03.320 school? What's you know? It's like you need to get married, go 212 00:15:03.679 --> 00:15:05.759 to Maine. And I'm not doubting that you had those feelings, But what 213 00:15:07.120 --> 00:15:09.960 looking back, what do you think about that? Now? Uh? I 214 00:15:09.000 --> 00:15:13.120 think it was it was a hyper focus on something that's not even it's not 215 00:15:13.159 --> 00:15:18.799 even necessary to get married so early or at all or at all true true 216 00:15:18.080 --> 00:15:20.720 to a man. All right, jump forward, we get married in the 217 00:15:20.720 --> 00:15:24.039 temple. What was that like for you had been to the temple before, 218 00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:28.200 because you had gone on a mission. I went faithfully every week to the 219 00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:30.679 temple at least once a week and did a session. I did a lot 220 00:15:30.720 --> 00:15:35.679 of genealogy and did the work for my ancestors. I was all in God, 221 00:15:35.799 --> 00:15:41.480 Chris, that's so boring. Baptisms for the dead, endowments for the 222 00:15:41.519 --> 00:15:45.840 dead, even Oh my God, I do I get it. I did 223 00:15:45.879 --> 00:15:48.840 the same thing as she just wanted to get touched under her robe. She 224 00:15:48.960 --> 00:15:58.440 wanted to get touched her I gotta get it somehow. You go in. 225 00:15:58.559 --> 00:16:02.600 You're like, can we just do the wah an annointed? You'd be great. 226 00:16:03.320 --> 00:16:11.960 I get to the left. Oh wow, oh, reverend, I 227 00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:15.120 love it. Okay, so you're married. Next up as kids, Yeah, 228 00:16:15.240 --> 00:16:18.240 we took a couple of years for me to feel like I was ready 229 00:16:18.240 --> 00:16:22.519 to start that. And I was twenty eight when my first was born. 230 00:16:22.919 --> 00:16:27.840 I did not feel called to motherhood. I struggled to connect with my baby. 231 00:16:29.440 --> 00:16:33.080 I had postpartum for a year. It was a real struggle. Wow, 232 00:16:33.279 --> 00:16:36.480 did you feel guilt about that? Oh? Absolutely? Like what's wrong 233 00:16:36.519 --> 00:16:37.759 with me? Am? I not righteous enough that I can love my baby 234 00:16:37.799 --> 00:16:41.120 and be a great mom? Oh God, that's the fulfillment of my eternal 235 00:16:41.159 --> 00:16:45.879 destiny, right, It's the one thing that you are supposed to be good 236 00:16:45.919 --> 00:16:48.080 at, the one thing if nothing else, you should be able to do 237 00:16:48.159 --> 00:16:51.080 this, And you suck at it. That's how I felt, too, 238 00:16:51.240 --> 00:16:53.159 Yeah, get it. Absolutely, it was exactly it. And so when 239 00:16:53.200 --> 00:16:59.120 I had my second baby, I had postpartum for like a year and a 240 00:16:59.159 --> 00:17:03.079 half and then and my brother passed away, and so I had nothing in 241 00:17:03.119 --> 00:17:08.680 the tank and the bottom fell out, Like my life was in shambles. 242 00:17:10.599 --> 00:17:15.519 And that's when I actually went in the hospital because it was so bad and 243 00:17:15.599 --> 00:17:18.319 I was just ready to give up, and I had this little family, 244 00:17:18.799 --> 00:17:22.559 and I went in the hospital and I finally admitted to myself that I was 245 00:17:22.640 --> 00:17:26.240 gay and that I had made a huge mistake, that I'd made a mess 246 00:17:26.319 --> 00:17:32.680 of my life and the lives of my immediate family, and what was I 247 00:17:32.720 --> 00:17:33.759 going to do about that? And how was I going to live true to 248 00:17:33.799 --> 00:17:40.160 myself? But also fulfill this commitment to these small humans. Yeah. Oh, 249 00:17:40.200 --> 00:17:42.720 that's such a shit moment, such a shit moment where it's like it 250 00:17:42.759 --> 00:17:48.680 was rough. I want something else, but I have children. I made 251 00:17:48.799 --> 00:17:52.759 this life. Yeah, I made this life. What the fuck do I 252 00:17:52.880 --> 00:17:56.960 do? And it's anyway you chose, go ahead. I chose to live 253 00:17:56.000 --> 00:18:00.480 true to myself. In an interesting way is that I was going to fulfill 254 00:18:00.480 --> 00:18:06.440 my commitment to my family. But then I had made a plan that I 255 00:18:06.480 --> 00:18:10.119 was going to end my life when my youngest graduated high school, and so 256 00:18:10.240 --> 00:18:15.319 that was like my way of kind of not conforming and my way of rebelling. 257 00:18:15.480 --> 00:18:18.559 I don't know, it's kind of weird. Well, I have a 258 00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:25.079 question about that. So why was suicide the option that you had landed on 259 00:18:25.240 --> 00:18:27.559 versus I'm going to get out of my marriage. Divorce just wasn't on the 260 00:18:27.559 --> 00:18:33.119 table, like it's an eternal commitment. But so you still believe, you 261 00:18:33.160 --> 00:18:37.680 still believe. Oh, I was completely fully in until like until until just 262 00:18:37.759 --> 00:18:42.880 a few months before my youngest came out to me in twenty seventeen. So 263 00:18:44.079 --> 00:18:48.079 my brother died in twenty two thousand and three. I'm sorry about your brother. 264 00:18:48.119 --> 00:18:51.440 By the way, yeah, thank you. Yeah, so sorry, 265 00:18:52.440 --> 00:18:56.599 but I'm confused. So Mormons believe potentially that homosexuality is a sin, let's 266 00:18:56.599 --> 00:19:00.759 say, but don't they also believe that suicide is a yes, So how 267 00:19:00.759 --> 00:19:06.680 do you pick which one to do? Because the church at the time taught 268 00:19:06.759 --> 00:19:11.680 that there are no gay people in heaven and so dying would cure me and 269 00:19:11.720 --> 00:19:17.000 then I would be free to Yeah, I would be like a hetero and 270 00:19:17.079 --> 00:19:22.400 I would be comfortable and appropriate after I was cured. You know, that 271 00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:26.359 is most definitely a teaching. I know, the gay part didn't come and 272 00:19:26.400 --> 00:19:30.160 that teaching until people were starting to come out. But previously it was like 273 00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:37.039 any kind of any kind of difference, whether it be a physical ailment, 274 00:19:37.240 --> 00:19:40.440 you're the wrong race, you know, whatever it is, it supposedly is 275 00:19:40.440 --> 00:19:44.640 all in heaven. When you die, you will be perfect again, meaning 276 00:19:44.799 --> 00:19:51.079 white and delightsome, straight, no physical differences, sure, except for the 277 00:19:51.079 --> 00:19:56.440 TK smoothie. So yeah, I could see that you're like I am suffering. 278 00:19:56.680 --> 00:20:00.480 I was born in sin being that I'm gay, So I'd rather just 279 00:20:00.599 --> 00:20:03.680 call it good after I raise my kids and just fucking start over in heaven. 280 00:20:04.279 --> 00:20:07.240 Am I right on this? Okay? And also I felt like my 281 00:20:07.880 --> 00:20:12.640 brother had died in that I felt like, why am I staying here? 282 00:20:12.680 --> 00:20:15.400 You know, like when that could bring me so much peace just to follow 283 00:20:15.480 --> 00:20:21.480 him. Gotcha, that makes sense. Wow, So how did that change 284 00:20:21.720 --> 00:20:25.440 your decision as your life went on with raising your children. It didn't. 285 00:20:25.720 --> 00:20:29.599 Oh, it was still in effect until twenty twenty. Wow. And you 286 00:20:29.640 --> 00:20:33.400 had like lots of I'm gonna say high callings, which is bullshit if you're 287 00:20:33.400 --> 00:20:37.359 a woman. But as far as women go, like you were still less 288 00:20:37.359 --> 00:20:41.960 than an eleven year old boy, but you did serve in some you know 289 00:20:42.680 --> 00:20:47.920 whatever, higher callings than your random I did, thirteen year old girl. 290 00:20:47.960 --> 00:20:51.720 Yeah, tell us about that. I was the Young Woman's President. I 291 00:20:51.960 --> 00:20:56.519 was in the Release Society presidency. I was over Enrichmond Night, which is 292 00:20:56.519 --> 00:21:02.880 the monthly gathering of the women ordinated that. I was the primary pianist for 293 00:21:02.920 --> 00:21:07.680 a few years. Yeah, some some pretty involved callings. So do you 294 00:21:07.720 --> 00:21:11.720 actually play the piano or they're just like you look good. I don't even 295 00:21:11.759 --> 00:21:18.960 touch a piano. Now. I hate trauma because I was just used so 296 00:21:18.119 --> 00:21:22.720 much, you know, never paid for anything expected Like, oh, I 297 00:21:22.759 --> 00:21:25.880 remember they would make changes to the primary program that the children were going to 298 00:21:25.880 --> 00:21:29.000 sing in front of the congregation. They would make changes like the morning of 299 00:21:29.839 --> 00:21:33.920 and there was no like regard for how difficult that is for the pianist. 300 00:21:33.039 --> 00:21:37.240 It was just it was just go with the flow, Chris, come on, 301 00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:41.200 use the spirit. The spirit will guide you bad. You're like watching 302 00:21:41.240 --> 00:21:48.480 me fuck up this song. Oh my gosh, I have a child of 303 00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:55.359 God will never sound the same again. Bitches, I gues said, I 304 00:21:55.400 --> 00:21:59.000 know this might be a good time from Mormon mad lib. We don't have 305 00:21:59.079 --> 00:22:02.359 one already. We haven't done one in a long time. It's been a 306 00:22:02.359 --> 00:22:06.279 bit Yeah, all right, So you've served a shit ton within the church, 307 00:22:06.359 --> 00:22:11.200 given up all of your time, made zero money, just your typical 308 00:22:11.680 --> 00:22:15.559 And I have a question. So this whole time you're doing all these things, 309 00:22:15.680 --> 00:22:18.240 all the expected things in the church, and your wife and mother, 310 00:22:18.359 --> 00:22:22.599 the whole thing in the back of your head, though, is this idea 311 00:22:22.119 --> 00:22:26.880 that at a certain time coming up in the future, you are going to 312 00:22:26.960 --> 00:22:30.920 die by suicide. You had this plan and that's what you were gonna do. 313 00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:33.599 Like, how long did you have this plan in your head? Seventeen 314 00:22:33.720 --> 00:22:40.319 years fall from two three to twenty twenty. I died every day for seventeen 315 00:22:40.400 --> 00:22:42.799 years. Oh my god, and you never doubted your choice. No, 316 00:22:44.160 --> 00:22:47.640 I felt like that was the like, doctrinally, that was my decision, 317 00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:53.319 like I based it on doctrine and policies. Oh fucking church, fucking cult. 318 00:22:55.039 --> 00:22:56.759 Yeah, seriously, everybody listening, get out of the fucking church. 319 00:22:57.000 --> 00:23:00.720 Do you know somebody in the church, Get on the fuck out seriously. 320 00:23:02.400 --> 00:23:07.640 So jump forward to your I'm sorry, is this your son now or your 321 00:23:07.720 --> 00:23:11.759 daughter? And you? How do you want us to talk about them before 322 00:23:11.839 --> 00:23:15.319 transition or does it not matter? I just call him my son. Okay, 323 00:23:15.720 --> 00:23:18.240 let's talk about your son, because we know a big thing happened there 324 00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:23.000 between you two. Yeah. So in twenty seventeen, like at the very 325 00:23:23.079 --> 00:23:26.960 end of the year, he had started going to this diversity club at school, 326 00:23:27.319 --> 00:23:30.960 which I knew what that meant that my husband didn't know secrets. Yes, 327 00:23:32.240 --> 00:23:37.480 And he started exploring some of his identity and talking with his friends and 328 00:23:37.519 --> 00:23:42.720 trying things on. And he had been hinting for a couple of weeks that 329 00:23:42.960 --> 00:23:51.359 maybe something was coming, some kind of revelation for him. And he was 330 00:23:51.400 --> 00:23:55.160 saying things like, well, you know, my friend is trans and how 331 00:23:55.160 --> 00:23:57.240 do you feel about that? And you know what would that be like, 332 00:23:57.559 --> 00:24:02.039 and so kind of feeling us out, both of us, my husband and 333 00:24:02.079 --> 00:24:07.000 I, and he finally just got the guts one night too. We were 334 00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:11.599 in the car in the driveway and I parked the car and he just he 335 00:24:11.720 --> 00:24:15.640 just spilled it, and he was like, would you still love me if 336 00:24:15.640 --> 00:24:19.359 I was trans Oh, that hurts my heart. That hurts my heart. 337 00:24:19.519 --> 00:24:23.200 And I was like, of course, of course, I will always love 338 00:24:23.240 --> 00:24:27.240 you, and thank you for trusting me with your truth. And by the 339 00:24:27.279 --> 00:24:33.000 way, I'm gay two yeah, yeah, yeah, But mostly just I 340 00:24:33.039 --> 00:24:40.519 wanted him to know that that love is the only appropriate response to that absolutely 341 00:24:40.519 --> 00:24:44.440 and safety, like, clearly you're a safe well clearly he trusted you enough 342 00:24:44.480 --> 00:24:48.519 obviously to tell you I would only imagine and tell me if I'm wrong that 343 00:24:48.559 --> 00:24:51.319 when you returned with like, hey, guess what, I'm gay too, 344 00:24:51.359 --> 00:24:55.359 there's this bond of safety, of a safety secret, right you know what? 345 00:24:55.400 --> 00:24:57.720 That is exactly what happened, because for the next three years he kept 346 00:24:57.759 --> 00:25:03.680 my secret from everyone, including his own father. I wasn't I wasn't ready 347 00:25:03.720 --> 00:25:08.759 to disrupt my marriage yet. So yeah, he came out to right away, 348 00:25:08.839 --> 00:25:12.200 He came out to everybody, but he kept my secret. Later, 349 00:25:12.640 --> 00:25:17.079 after we the two of us left the church, we would spend our Sunday 350 00:25:17.079 --> 00:25:22.720 mornings at Panera with our milky white coffee and our sweet tea, and we 351 00:25:22.759 --> 00:25:26.680 would toast and bear testimonies to each other that we were so grateful that we 352 00:25:26.720 --> 00:25:29.799 had left the church. Oh my god, I love it. Let me 353 00:25:29.880 --> 00:25:34.559 let me guess no piano playing in Panera. I taught him all the secret 354 00:25:34.559 --> 00:25:40.680 handshakes. It was wonderful. I have taught those to my kids too, 355 00:25:40.720 --> 00:25:44.839 and they look at me like I'm a weirdo. Uh. Oh god, 356 00:25:44.880 --> 00:25:48.559 I love it. But we bonded really well. Oh for sure. I 357 00:25:48.680 --> 00:25:52.079 wonder as you taught him more of the wacky shit, was he more like, 358 00:25:52.519 --> 00:25:56.759 Mom, what the heck? He's still finding out wacky shit, And 359 00:25:57.519 --> 00:26:00.200 he's just like, why did you do that for so long? But you 360 00:26:00.240 --> 00:26:03.920 know, we were we weren't it right? Yeah? No, I know 361 00:26:03.960 --> 00:26:07.720 I didn't think it was wacky at the time. Absolutely, that wacky shit 362 00:26:07.799 --> 00:26:11.160 runs deep. Yeah. So, going back to the story and you and 363 00:26:11.200 --> 00:26:15.440 your son having a secret for three years, at what point did your husband 364 00:26:15.759 --> 00:26:18.240 start to I mean, was it all at once. It's like, we're 365 00:26:18.319 --> 00:26:23.519 leaving a church, your daughter's now a son. I am gay, Like, 366 00:26:23.559 --> 00:26:26.640 did you hit him all at once with this stuff or how did that? 367 00:26:26.720 --> 00:26:32.119 I didn't when when my son came out, we had some discussions with 368 00:26:32.319 --> 00:26:37.519 the bishop because he called us into the office. My son came out on 369 00:26:37.119 --> 00:26:41.440 his YouTube channel and the Young Woman's president saw it. Oh my god, 370 00:26:41.599 --> 00:26:45.240 and just all he said was, Hey, this is my new name, 371 00:26:45.279 --> 00:26:48.599 this is my these are my new pronouns, you know, and you know, 372 00:26:48.720 --> 00:26:53.240 nothing against the church or anything. But he he got with of it, 373 00:26:53.440 --> 00:27:00.440 and he he called us into his office to manage expectations early. As 374 00:27:00.440 --> 00:27:03.599 he put it, Oh my god, and he said, you know, 375 00:27:03.640 --> 00:27:08.599 there's no such thing as transgender or non binary or gender queer or anything. 376 00:27:08.640 --> 00:27:14.440 You're looking at it Jesus, Oh my god. I okay. So I 377 00:27:14.559 --> 00:27:18.279 recorded these interviews. There were three of them. I have them on my 378 00:27:18.359 --> 00:27:25.799 phone. Awesome, we might need those for a scandal sion. I was 379 00:27:25.920 --> 00:27:27.480 like, this is gonna be good. I have to record it. But 380 00:27:27.599 --> 00:27:32.720 I was still believing at that time. But I had already started, like 381 00:27:33.480 --> 00:27:37.480 a few months before, I had started investigating the truth claims of the church 382 00:27:37.519 --> 00:27:41.599 and learning about the polygamy with Joseph Smith. And you know all this stuff. 383 00:27:41.640 --> 00:27:45.440 And I read this book called Combating Cult Mind Control, and our church 384 00:27:45.519 --> 00:27:51.680 is in that I should be yeah, yeah, And it was just telling 385 00:27:51.880 --> 00:27:53.319 like how do you spot a cult? And I was like, oh my 386 00:27:53.359 --> 00:27:56.759 god, they says the Church of Jesus Christ are lotterday saints on the outside 387 00:27:56.759 --> 00:28:00.880 of the church. You just spotted it. Yeah, absolutely, So I'm 388 00:28:00.920 --> 00:28:04.079 curious what was the moment where you're like, oh my god, I need 389 00:28:04.079 --> 00:28:08.000 out. Was there a certain teaching or just exhaustion. It was the last 390 00:28:08.079 --> 00:28:11.599 day that we talked to the bishop. There were three meetings with the bishop. 391 00:28:11.200 --> 00:28:15.240 The first one was just my husband and I and then the second two 392 00:28:15.359 --> 00:28:18.720 were with my son also in the room, and he was being awful. 393 00:28:18.759 --> 00:28:22.680 The bishop was just being awful, and my son was like trying to ask 394 00:28:22.839 --> 00:28:30.359 specific questions to see if he could still stay in the church and betrans like 395 00:28:30.400 --> 00:28:33.759 he was trying, and the bishop was like, you know, it's it's 396 00:28:33.759 --> 00:28:40.240 not compatible. And so we left that interview and then a couple of my 397 00:28:40.319 --> 00:28:44.599 friends like contacted me and said, bishop just contacted us, and OU did 398 00:28:44.640 --> 00:28:48.319 your son and Jesus Yeah, and said that we're not allowed to use the 399 00:28:48.400 --> 00:28:52.680 name and pronouns, and I was like, what fuck? And so I 400 00:28:52.839 --> 00:28:57.039 texted my bishop and I was like, are you talking to people about what 401 00:28:57.079 --> 00:29:00.319 we discussed? And he was like yeah, I'm just trying to protect the 402 00:29:00.359 --> 00:29:07.200 congregation and and then he was like he was trying to defend himself. And 403 00:29:07.559 --> 00:29:11.279 I gave him three chances and then I was like, I type the words 404 00:29:11.359 --> 00:29:18.880 you are a prick, and I like hovered over the sun button for a 405 00:29:18.920 --> 00:29:22.799 little bit, and I was like, my husband was in on that group 406 00:29:22.880 --> 00:29:29.359 text too, and I was like, oh, yeah, you prick. 407 00:29:29.640 --> 00:29:34.680 It was the last moment of my church life. It was like did he 408 00:29:34.799 --> 00:29:38.000 respond? No response at all? Nothing? He still has a respond. 409 00:29:38.480 --> 00:29:45.079 Oh my god. Fun good for you. I'm scary shit to tell your 410 00:29:45.119 --> 00:29:48.279 bishop he's a prick. I love it because you're defending your child over this 411 00:29:48.559 --> 00:29:53.960 dick face. Yeah. And this this again reinforces this goofy thing that happens 412 00:29:55.000 --> 00:29:59.640 in the Mormon Church where any old person with a penis can be the head 413 00:29:59.640 --> 00:30:03.640 of a chur the bishop, without any training, without any counseling as far 414 00:30:03.640 --> 00:30:08.039 as like how how to counsel people? Where's the classes in seminary or whatever 415 00:30:08.079 --> 00:30:15.480 it is that teaches you how to counsel people and like holding a confidence yeah, 416 00:30:15.640 --> 00:30:21.759 is one of one. No fucking therapist would ever tell anyone. I'm 417 00:30:21.759 --> 00:30:25.160 talking family members, anyone, except if you're like, I'm about to murder 418 00:30:25.200 --> 00:30:29.599 my mom, But wouldn't do that. Can't do that legally, right, 419 00:30:29.680 --> 00:30:32.519 legally they cannot do that. So how is this guy able to do that 420 00:30:32.559 --> 00:30:38.039 sort of bullshit? Well, he's not trained, but in his mind it's 421 00:30:38.079 --> 00:30:42.720 his job as the father of the war, Yes, to protect the members. 422 00:30:42.720 --> 00:30:47.880 And in his mind, your son was gonna fuck everybody up. They 423 00:30:47.880 --> 00:30:49.799 didn't want your son, but they didn't want your son fucking up the ward 424 00:30:51.240 --> 00:30:55.000 exactly and being a bad influence on the other young women. Yeah. Well, 425 00:30:55.039 --> 00:30:56.920 and also, I think a lot of people right now are duped into 426 00:30:56.920 --> 00:31:02.480 thinking that the Mormon Church by and large accepting, but when you get down 427 00:31:02.480 --> 00:31:04.920 to the bishop by bishop level, it sounds like that's not the case at 428 00:31:04.960 --> 00:31:08.759 all. And I guess it depends. Maybe it's bishopric roulette, you know, 429 00:31:08.799 --> 00:31:12.319 it depends on who your bishop is. I'm guessing your prick bishop for 430 00:31:12.480 --> 00:31:15.640 this to happen again in twenty twenty three would be the same answer, in 431 00:31:15.680 --> 00:31:19.839 the same warning, he would Yes, oh, I have a new buzzword. 432 00:31:19.880 --> 00:31:29.400 Instead of Bishop Rick, it's Bishop Prick. Bishop Prick. Yeah, 433 00:31:29.599 --> 00:31:33.480 Mary, Oh my god. So, Shelly, this sounds like a good 434 00:31:33.480 --> 00:31:41.200 time for a break. I agree. We'll be right back, and we're 435 00:31:41.240 --> 00:31:45.759 back. Hello. It was so interesting during these meetings though, Like in 436 00:31:45.799 --> 00:31:49.359 between the second and third meeting, he talked to my son and he was 437 00:31:49.440 --> 00:31:52.960 like, I want you to go and pray about this, and I want 438 00:31:52.000 --> 00:31:56.440 you to come back next week when we talk and let's discuss what God tells 439 00:31:56.480 --> 00:32:01.559 you about what havenly Father tells you about your decision. And he was like, 440 00:32:01.680 --> 00:32:05.880 and you and your husband need to pray about it too, and just 441 00:32:05.960 --> 00:32:08.799 make sure that you're in alignment with the Church's teachings. And of course, 442 00:32:08.960 --> 00:32:12.640 it, you know, like threatened to take our array. I recommends if 443 00:32:12.640 --> 00:32:16.599 we didn't fall into alignment. And so we came back the following week and 444 00:32:17.000 --> 00:32:22.799 my son said that he felt like God was with him on this journey. 445 00:32:22.079 --> 00:32:27.680 Now he's not not, according to the bishop. Pray. The bishop was 446 00:32:27.799 --> 00:32:30.799 like, Nope, that's not the right answer, basically is what he said. 447 00:32:30.240 --> 00:32:32.599 And I said, wait a minute. I jumped in. I was 448 00:32:32.680 --> 00:32:36.839 like, so you told him to go home? And pray about it. 449 00:32:37.720 --> 00:32:40.440 Just pray that he would be in agreement with what you said. And he's 450 00:32:40.480 --> 00:32:43.839 like no, And I was like, oh, yeah, this is so 451 00:32:43.960 --> 00:32:45.640 obvious. Yeah, that's exactly what you were going to say. I had 452 00:32:45.680 --> 00:32:50.319 that happen too everyone. I think everyone that's leaving the church with questions, 453 00:32:50.799 --> 00:32:55.920 most everyone will have a bishop say pray until your answers is alignment with the 454 00:32:57.000 --> 00:33:00.839 church, because any other answer is from the devil. Yes, clearly. 455 00:33:00.720 --> 00:33:05.279 But what I love about this part of the story, Chris, is here 456 00:33:05.440 --> 00:33:09.640 is your son coming up with a different response than the bishops. But if 457 00:33:09.720 --> 00:33:15.279 you go back in time when you are ready to move to Maine to start 458 00:33:15.279 --> 00:33:17.680 your life over, you didn't, and when you had doubts about and I 459 00:33:19.119 --> 00:33:22.519 don't even feel a calling to be a mother, you did it anyway, 460 00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:25.480 you know what I mean. That's a good point fast forward. You are 461 00:33:25.599 --> 00:33:30.480 now standing up for what you believe is right. You know, yeah, 462 00:33:30.519 --> 00:33:34.559 because it was my kid, you know, yeah, I heard it my 463 00:33:34.640 --> 00:33:38.519 whole life. I heard how wicked homosexuals are and how they're sinners and we 464 00:33:38.720 --> 00:33:43.839 love the sinner but hate the sin and that kind of thing. But until 465 00:33:43.880 --> 00:33:47.000 that was aimed at my kid. Yeah, oh no, I did not 466 00:33:47.079 --> 00:33:52.880 want him to experience that kind of self loathing, you know. I didn't 467 00:33:52.920 --> 00:33:58.039 want that to be his inheritance for me. Yeah. From the church, 468 00:33:58.319 --> 00:34:01.480 Yeah, I just love how they teach you to hate yourself if you're queer, 469 00:34:01.720 --> 00:34:05.799 like your entire life, even if they don't know that you're queer, 470 00:34:05.839 --> 00:34:07.199 they teach hate. So in your mind, you're like, I hate myself, 471 00:34:07.320 --> 00:34:12.639 yes, yeah, And I don't really know how anyone successfully loves the 472 00:34:12.639 --> 00:34:15.039 sinner but hates the sin, Like, how does that even work? It's 473 00:34:15.079 --> 00:34:22.679 a lie? Yeah, because there's no way to show someone true unconditional love 474 00:34:22.079 --> 00:34:24.840 when you're judging the shit out of them, right, right, there's just 475 00:34:24.880 --> 00:34:29.239 no way to do those two judging the shit out of who they are, 476 00:34:29.519 --> 00:34:32.119 right. Like I could say, listen, I love you, but I 477 00:34:32.119 --> 00:34:37.480 don't like that you keep, you know, holding up liquor stores like that 478 00:34:37.599 --> 00:34:43.039 sucks, but but very specific, very specific. I've been watching True Crime 479 00:34:43.119 --> 00:34:45.559 and there was a part about holding up liquor stores that was just last night, 480 00:34:45.719 --> 00:34:51.800 the fresh in my brain. So what I'm saying is to to not 481 00:34:52.119 --> 00:34:55.440 like to say, you love someone but you don't like who they are as 482 00:34:55.480 --> 00:35:00.079 a human being. That's fucked up because that's saying that who you are is 483 00:35:00.159 --> 00:35:05.400 sinful. Yes, absolutely, and my mother is stuck in that limbo right 484 00:35:05.440 --> 00:35:07.320 now. She's a member of the church, but she, you know, 485 00:35:07.360 --> 00:35:12.599 in order to answer her temple recommend question, you know, do you sympathize 486 00:35:12.639 --> 00:35:15.960 with or associate with I'm not sure how they word it now, but it's 487 00:35:15.159 --> 00:35:19.559 essentially, do you, you know, support people who teach against what the 488 00:35:19.639 --> 00:35:23.280 church teaches? And she says, I love you, but I can't support 489 00:35:23.320 --> 00:35:27.760 you because I need to pay money to go to the temple or I will 490 00:35:27.800 --> 00:35:31.159 not be saved. Thank you Mormon teaching. Yeah, I know you got 491 00:35:31.159 --> 00:35:37.840 a ten percent raise. Yeah you did congrets at a girl. Okay, 492 00:35:37.880 --> 00:35:40.920 So jumping forward, remind me how old was your son when he came out? 493 00:35:42.320 --> 00:35:46.119 Fifteen fifteen, so we're hitting the age we're getting to where he's seventeen, 494 00:35:46.199 --> 00:35:50.800 which is when you had decided, you know, I'll be good to 495 00:35:50.840 --> 00:35:53.199 go at that point, when he was eighteen graduating eighteen. I'm sorry. 496 00:35:53.360 --> 00:35:58.360 Yes, So after the whole coming out and you're doubting the church, how 497 00:35:58.559 --> 00:36:01.559 long did it take for you to decide I am not going to take my 498 00:36:01.599 --> 00:36:07.239 own life. So I had a friend in twenty nineteen approached me. She 499 00:36:07.320 --> 00:36:10.679 was a friend from the ward. We had been friends for over a decade, 500 00:36:12.800 --> 00:36:15.079 and she said, I'm learning to be a life coach. Will you 501 00:36:15.199 --> 00:36:19.599 be a guinea pig for me so that I can get my certification? There 502 00:36:19.639 --> 00:36:22.360 we go? Did She didn't know what she would she did, She didn't 503 00:36:22.360 --> 00:36:24.039 know what she was getting into it. I didn't come out. So I 504 00:36:24.119 --> 00:36:30.320 left the church in early twenty eighteen with my son. But then it was 505 00:36:30.360 --> 00:36:34.320 another three years before I came. Two years until I came out to my 506 00:36:34.519 --> 00:36:38.559 husband and the world and my parents, you know, and everybody. And 507 00:36:39.320 --> 00:36:45.079 so twenty twenty was the year that my youngest graduated from high school. That 508 00:36:45.320 --> 00:36:51.239 was the year that I in August I left. I left my family on 509 00:36:51.559 --> 00:36:53.639 August third. It's called my New Life Day. And I celebrated every day 510 00:36:53.760 --> 00:36:57.840 every year August third. I'm set on my calendar. I'm going to celebrate. 511 00:36:57.880 --> 00:37:00.800 You do you know what I'm celebrating this year? Why? I Am 512 00:37:00.800 --> 00:37:02.960 going with my girlfriend to see Pink at the met Stadium in New York. 513 00:37:04.119 --> 00:37:12.840 Oh my god, we've seen Brandy Carlisle. How many times we actually advertised 514 00:37:12.840 --> 00:37:15.239 the podcast at one of her concerts. I don't know that that actually happened. 515 00:37:15.320 --> 00:37:19.159 I'm not convinced. We never got a bride to Oh we never paid. 516 00:37:19.679 --> 00:37:22.719 They didn't send us a bill, so I don't know we had good 517 00:37:22.760 --> 00:37:25.719 intention. We did, We really tried. Okay, so let's take you 518 00:37:25.800 --> 00:37:30.599 from I mean, let's talk about how your husband reacted and how did the 519 00:37:30.599 --> 00:37:36.280 divorce come about. Yeah, so he was completely shocked. He had no 520 00:37:36.360 --> 00:37:40.079 idea, and I was under the impression that he knew, but he it 521 00:37:40.119 --> 00:37:44.280 was just never talked about. We never talked about it. Can I just 522 00:37:44.360 --> 00:37:52.280 say that your ex husband's gaydar is clearly broken. I don't know. Maybe 523 00:37:52.320 --> 00:37:57.800 she was good at thinking, being like the devoted wife, know like whatever, 524 00:37:58.239 --> 00:38:00.400 whatever. He needs to get that thing touned before he starts dating again. 525 00:38:00.599 --> 00:38:05.760 Okay, there you go. She knew what she was doing, Shelley. 526 00:38:05.960 --> 00:38:15.199 Oh cool, it's called acting acting. Yeah, wunning. Wow. 527 00:38:15.679 --> 00:38:16.880 Wait, I had to know what was your hair like? Was it lesbian 528 00:38:16.920 --> 00:38:20.719 hair or straight girl hair? Oh? My god? Okay, it's important 529 00:38:20.800 --> 00:38:23.159 question. So this is an important question and it actually applied, Thank you, 530 00:38:23.199 --> 00:38:28.840 because when I was twenty and I was dating him and I was about 531 00:38:28.840 --> 00:38:30.960 to go on my mission. I overheard him telling his friend that he liked 532 00:38:31.000 --> 00:38:36.239 long hair, and so during my mission, I didn't cut my hair at 533 00:38:36.280 --> 00:38:38.800 all, and I came back with long hair for him. And I kept 534 00:38:38.800 --> 00:38:43.639 that long hair for the next twenty years until I turned forty. And then 535 00:38:43.639 --> 00:38:46.039 I was like fuck that this is my head, this is my hair, 536 00:38:46.079 --> 00:38:50.559 and yeah, what long hair anymore? So I got a cut. Was 537 00:38:50.599 --> 00:38:52.880 this was this before the divorce or appor like did he leave you over the 538 00:38:52.920 --> 00:38:58.199 haircut? This is what I was forty. I'm fifty two now, so 539 00:38:58.360 --> 00:39:00.719 I was like twelve years ago. Yeah, and how long have you been 540 00:39:00.719 --> 00:39:07.840 divorced? We separated in twenty twenty. The divorce became final about January twenty 541 00:39:07.880 --> 00:39:10.800 twenty two. Okay, so this recent yeaheah, like just happy yeah, 542 00:39:10.880 --> 00:39:15.079 oh wow wow. Okay, So at some point in there, your son 543 00:39:15.159 --> 00:39:19.119 as fifteen, comes out to you, You come out to your son. 544 00:39:20.440 --> 00:39:22.000 Is it like a light switch at that point, like, oh, I 545 00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:25.440 don't have to die anymore? Like when did that hit you? No? 546 00:39:25.840 --> 00:39:30.199 It was the life coach. Okay, back to the life coach. Yeah, 547 00:39:30.239 --> 00:39:34.840 she did all these assessments on me and you know, surveys and trying 548 00:39:34.840 --> 00:39:37.119 to figure out where my strengths were and what I wanted to do with my 549 00:39:37.239 --> 00:39:39.960 life. And so we came up with this whole plan, and I like 550 00:39:40.000 --> 00:39:45.000 played along and then I don't know, like after a while, I was 551 00:39:45.079 --> 00:39:46.719 like, you know, I really appreciate you doing this for me, but 552 00:39:46.800 --> 00:39:51.880 it's not ever going to happen because I have this other plan. Oh, 553 00:39:51.920 --> 00:39:54.840 you still had your death by suicide plan, even though she was like having 554 00:39:54.840 --> 00:40:02.280 you run for president? Okay, yes, why for president? I'll vote 555 00:40:02.280 --> 00:40:07.039 for you. Oh yeah, So when did it switch? When were your 556 00:40:07.119 --> 00:40:09.039 like, man, I think I want to stay around. It wasn't until 557 00:40:09.079 --> 00:40:15.519 she helped me make a plan to live. She said, what if? 558 00:40:15.840 --> 00:40:21.880 What if there are a few more chapters in your life that have more hope 559 00:40:21.880 --> 00:40:28.800 and peace and happiness for you. Yeah, And so we came up with 560 00:40:28.840 --> 00:40:31.280 a new plan for me. So she knew about the old plan. I 561 00:40:31.360 --> 00:40:35.320 told her. Yeah. After we'd done all the assessments and made the plan, 562 00:40:35.440 --> 00:40:38.079 I was like, no, this is never gonna happen. My life 563 00:40:38.079 --> 00:40:45.159 coach helped me transition from my plan to die into a bright, brilliant, 564 00:40:45.480 --> 00:40:51.320 hopeful plan to live. Nice. I feel like we cannot get out of 565 00:40:51.320 --> 00:40:53.519 this section of your life. But it's so fucking good and it's so relatable 566 00:40:53.559 --> 00:40:57.079 and everyone listening is like, oh my god, me too, me too. 567 00:40:57.559 --> 00:41:00.800 What was her plan? Like, I feel like we need to offer 568 00:41:00.920 --> 00:41:06.159 like a website for this life coach you. My book is dedicated to her. 569 00:41:06.760 --> 00:41:08.840 Here you go. We can reach out to her when it happens. 570 00:41:09.440 --> 00:41:14.960 So what was her plan? Her plan for me? Yeah, she was 571 00:41:15.000 --> 00:41:17.760 like, you know, we discovered that I was creative. I didn't know 572 00:41:17.840 --> 00:41:22.920 that, and so, you know, she's like, what would you like 573 00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:24.440 to do for a living. I was a stay at home mom for the 574 00:41:24.440 --> 00:41:28.199 whole time I was married, and so I never even had a career. 575 00:41:28.760 --> 00:41:30.599 She's like, what would you like to make a living at And I said, 576 00:41:31.039 --> 00:41:34.840 if I could be a writer, that would make all my dreams come 577 00:41:34.840 --> 00:41:37.519 true. Hell yeah, so you did. You did become a writer. 578 00:41:37.159 --> 00:41:39.880 I did. First. What I did was I went back to school. 579 00:41:39.960 --> 00:41:43.440 Yeah. That was our first step as I went back to school. And 580 00:41:43.480 --> 00:41:49.119 that gave me connections outside of my church family and my immediate family. It 581 00:41:49.199 --> 00:41:53.039 gave me confidence, it gave me, you know, education, which was 582 00:41:53.559 --> 00:41:59.400 empowering. Is this after the divorce or before before? Okay? And so 583 00:42:00.119 --> 00:42:05.079 I actually had a professor who was a philosophy teacher, and she encouraged me 584 00:42:05.159 --> 00:42:09.480 to write my story, and so I wrote an essay about being gay in 585 00:42:09.519 --> 00:42:15.559 the church and about this experience with the bishop and my youngest and you know 586 00:42:15.599 --> 00:42:21.679 how things were progressing after that. And the essay is actually published in an 587 00:42:21.719 --> 00:42:29.280 anthology called I Spoke to You with Silence about Queer Mormon Stories Nice that came 588 00:42:29.280 --> 00:42:32.000 out last summer. Is that available for purchase or is it online? It's 589 00:42:32.039 --> 00:42:35.199 on Amazon. Yeah, and it's called again, repeat that, please, 590 00:42:35.360 --> 00:42:38.000 I Spoke to You with Silence. Pray as the author per a, Y, 591 00:42:38.079 --> 00:42:40.239 gotcha, Mary's going to make that. Put that in the show notes. 592 00:42:40.800 --> 00:42:45.679 Thanks not to talk about myself, but I can relate with the whole 593 00:42:45.320 --> 00:42:51.079 getting to the end of my Mormon life, my forty years of Mormonism, 594 00:42:51.840 --> 00:42:54.639 and feeling like, who am I? What do I want to do? 595 00:42:54.920 --> 00:42:59.000 What does my life look like? Because you know, I have memories of 596 00:42:59.000 --> 00:43:04.119 what I love when I was younger, before I was committed to being this 597 00:43:04.159 --> 00:43:07.400 Mormon wife, and I look back and there were things that I just can't 598 00:43:07.719 --> 00:43:09.239 do now I'm too old. I don't want to go back to school forever, 599 00:43:09.440 --> 00:43:13.199 and I've had to kind of let that go. I have some sadness, 600 00:43:13.239 --> 00:43:15.960 but I let that go. But going forward, the excitement of the 601 00:43:15.960 --> 00:43:19.719 fuck do I want to do? First it's super scary, and then it's 602 00:43:19.760 --> 00:43:22.719 like, oh my gosh, I have the world. I have the world 603 00:43:22.920 --> 00:43:28.880 at my fingertips waiting for me to be me right. Yes, yes, 604 00:43:29.079 --> 00:43:32.800 yes, it was terrifying and exhilarating. Yes. Yeah. So she was 605 00:43:32.840 --> 00:43:37.159 helping you, like learn things about yourself. You're creative, you know, 606 00:43:37.519 --> 00:43:42.360 it sounds like she was just helping you try to figure out who you were 607 00:43:42.800 --> 00:43:45.440 in a lot of ways. That's exactly what she was doing. She was 608 00:43:45.440 --> 00:43:50.880 giving me permission to explore those things outside of church. Wow, So that 609 00:43:51.239 --> 00:43:55.400 probably was such a huge mind shift for you, Like who am I outside 610 00:43:55.440 --> 00:44:00.760 of this crazy religion? Right? Like, like you probably never thought about 611 00:44:00.760 --> 00:44:04.840 that before, Like who am I ever did? Well, Hey, they 612 00:44:04.840 --> 00:44:07.679 don't give you time to think about yourself. Be you're not supposed to think 613 00:44:07.719 --> 00:44:09.960 yourself. They don't give you a permission to think about because they already tell 614 00:44:10.000 --> 00:44:13.639 you what you're gonna do. You're gonna be the youth leader, and you're 615 00:44:13.639 --> 00:44:15.760 gonna have kids, and you're gonna bake pies and ship. You're gonna plan 616 00:44:16.119 --> 00:44:20.440 every week and get a plan of happiness plan. Let me guess, Let 617 00:44:20.519 --> 00:44:25.280 me guess Chris was not happy. That is that safe to say? I 618 00:44:25.360 --> 00:44:29.079 looked happy. Oh. No, one would have thought that I was a 619 00:44:29.119 --> 00:44:32.360 fucking mess inside, because you can't show that ship on the app. No, 620 00:44:32.480 --> 00:44:37.039 you have to be a good example to your you know, the fellow 621 00:44:37.559 --> 00:44:43.400 congregants. You have to like show them faith and fortitude and and faithfulness. 622 00:44:43.679 --> 00:44:47.679 Oh were you a big testimony bear on fast and testimony Sundays? No? 623 00:44:49.000 --> 00:44:52.360 Oh, fuck you. I was when brainwashed the ship out of people, 624 00:44:52.559 --> 00:44:57.320 not even knowing that's what I was doing. Yes, I want to call 625 00:44:57.360 --> 00:45:01.519 every person the congregation and be like, yo, it's just some bullshit. 626 00:45:02.000 --> 00:45:06.320 I actually didn't feel the spirit when I told that story and cried. I 627 00:45:06.360 --> 00:45:09.719 was just nervous. Yeah, anyway, Yeah, it was really confusing for 628 00:45:09.760 --> 00:45:16.920 me to try to decipher between genuine spiritual experiences and just the heart cell that 629 00:45:16.960 --> 00:45:22.840 the church teaches and presents and the like. The sentimentality. Yes, it 630 00:45:22.880 --> 00:45:25.679 makes you cry, it makes you emotional, it makes you feel deep, 631 00:45:25.800 --> 00:45:30.119 strong feelings, but it's not real. It's not a confirmation of the truth. 632 00:45:30.199 --> 00:45:34.400 Yeah, it was. I remember having this moment where I went to 633 00:45:34.440 --> 00:45:37.760 a Bonnie Rait concert and this was when I was kind of kind of leaving 634 00:45:37.800 --> 00:45:39.920 the church, and it was like, I'm pretty sure I just felt the 635 00:45:39.960 --> 00:45:44.800 spirit right now listening to and watching Bonnie Raid. So wait a second, 636 00:45:44.840 --> 00:45:47.960 So that means Bonnie Rate is true because it was spirit. It's true, 637 00:45:49.440 --> 00:45:53.159 Like what the fuck? Church? And so I know for me leaving the 638 00:45:53.280 --> 00:45:58.880 church, and I've told the story in earlier podcasts, but the doubt you 639 00:45:58.960 --> 00:46:01.199 have in your own feelings is like, Okay, I feel this way, 640 00:46:01.199 --> 00:46:05.920 but is that true or is it still heart cell going on? And by 641 00:46:05.920 --> 00:46:09.280 the way, heart sell people is the church's way. They actually call it 642 00:46:09.280 --> 00:46:15.519 that of giving you like the beautiful music and the moments, all this stuff 643 00:46:15.559 --> 00:46:19.400 to force you to feel the spirit, which is the same as a Bonnie 644 00:46:19.440 --> 00:46:22.519 Ray concert. So yeah, I doubted my intuition for a long time. 645 00:46:23.079 --> 00:46:27.880 The church sayes doubt you're dat well, very true, And that to me 646 00:46:28.119 --> 00:46:32.519 must be one of the biggest struggles for people leaving Mormonism or high demand religion 647 00:46:32.599 --> 00:46:37.840 is like, how do I trust my intuition when I've suppressed it my entire 648 00:46:38.039 --> 00:46:43.440 life. That was so hard. It was so difficult. Yeah, it 649 00:46:43.519 --> 00:46:45.599 took a while to learn it and I'm still still learning. Oh yeah, 650 00:46:45.679 --> 00:46:50.079 you're you're fresh out of the cult. Girl, you were the same, 651 00:46:50.159 --> 00:46:54.480 And it's we're not done figuring our shit out. It's like we're starting to 652 00:46:54.559 --> 00:46:59.519 figure our shit out. We're starting to trust ourselves and for me, the 653 00:46:59.599 --> 00:47:01.119 trusting what you feel and be like fuck it, I'm gonna go for it, 654 00:47:01.639 --> 00:47:05.639 and then whether it works or not. To me, it doesn't matter 655 00:47:05.639 --> 00:47:09.199 if it was a failure or success. I went with what I felt yes 656 00:47:09.280 --> 00:47:13.400 good about it was my decision. Yes. Well, And the good news 657 00:47:13.480 --> 00:47:16.400 is all of us humans here, maybe unless we're Eckert Tull or Oprah, 658 00:47:16.440 --> 00:47:21.880 we're all still figuring it out right and maybe figured out and doesn't know everything. 659 00:47:22.519 --> 00:47:25.719 It never stops, It never stops, and that's it. I'm encouraged 660 00:47:25.760 --> 00:47:30.159 by that because I know that I'm not the only one like day to day 661 00:47:30.280 --> 00:47:35.000 trying to figure my life out. You know. But the difference is that 662 00:47:35.039 --> 00:47:38.360 the church teaches you all the answers, and so you walk around feeling like 663 00:47:38.400 --> 00:47:43.480 you already have all the answers, you already know all the truths, and 664 00:47:43.519 --> 00:47:47.840 so there's no reason to have introspection. You have the whole truth, got 665 00:47:47.880 --> 00:47:50.840 it, and it makes you better than everyone else. Which, by the 666 00:47:50.880 --> 00:47:53.559 way, I remember this part of your book where you talk about this isn't 667 00:47:53.559 --> 00:47:58.159 your exact phrasing, but kind of coming down off your Mormon high horse and 668 00:47:58.239 --> 00:48:04.239 feeling like part of humanity. I felt that so hard too. It's an 669 00:48:04.280 --> 00:48:08.440 amazing, amazing, incredible feeling that you get from nothing else. Tell me 670 00:48:08.480 --> 00:48:14.480 about it. Yes, I was always better than I always knew like more, 671 00:48:14.559 --> 00:48:17.280 I had more wisdom, I had more spiritual connection with the divine and 672 00:48:17.360 --> 00:48:22.519 so I was special. I was elite, and that kept me separate from 673 00:48:22.519 --> 00:48:24.320 people. Yes, yeah, right, it kept them at a distance. 674 00:48:24.480 --> 00:48:29.239 And so finally, once I was able to leave that, that's what I 675 00:48:29.280 --> 00:48:34.360 call it joining the human race. Like, finally I wasn't high and mighty. 676 00:48:34.559 --> 00:48:38.199 I was one of the people. And I found that people welcomed me, 677 00:48:38.280 --> 00:48:43.840 ye open arms. They didn't judge me for how terrible I was before, 678 00:48:43.920 --> 00:48:45.079 you know, and all the things that I said when I was Mormon, 679 00:48:45.239 --> 00:48:50.960 and yeah, and it was so beautiful and so rewarding. Isn't it 680 00:48:51.000 --> 00:48:55.079 interesting how the church teaches its members to kind of be afraid of everyone else 681 00:48:55.119 --> 00:49:00.719 like they're part of the world. World. We need to be a whold 682 00:49:00.920 --> 00:49:04.599 higher standard because we have the truth of you know, black and you know, 683 00:49:05.119 --> 00:49:07.519 Mormons aren't the only ones who say that that's true. It's cults in 684 00:49:07.559 --> 00:49:12.159 general. Yeah. I remember hearing that as an evangelical. It's like, 685 00:49:12.199 --> 00:49:15.480 the world is out there and we're we're different on the inside. You know, 686 00:49:15.719 --> 00:49:19.880 you have to be protected from the world. The world's coming to get 687 00:49:19.920 --> 00:49:22.039 you. Yeah, And isn't it interesting now that you're in the world, 688 00:49:22.400 --> 00:49:24.760 they're like, come on, have this cup of coffee, join us, 689 00:49:24.760 --> 00:49:30.840 It'll be fine. And then pretty soon you're like a like a street whar 690 00:49:30.199 --> 00:49:38.360 You're you're shooting up heroin. It's slippery, slow cooking up some meth according 691 00:49:38.400 --> 00:49:43.360 to Mormon teachings. But no, no, no, Instead, you know 692 00:49:43.400 --> 00:49:45.239 what it is, it's a feeling of not judging people. That's what it 693 00:49:45.320 --> 00:49:49.519 is. And that is such a lift to your spirit to be like it's 694 00:49:49.559 --> 00:49:52.880 so freezing. Oh god, it's it's phenomenal. It is. It's nice. 695 00:49:53.039 --> 00:49:58.519 Yeah, that was a nice part. I feel like we haven't touched 696 00:49:58.599 --> 00:50:00.760 on. I mean, I'll this is in your book, I'm assuming, 697 00:50:00.880 --> 00:50:06.320 but but more detail and Yeah, it's just great getting your insights as right 698 00:50:06.360 --> 00:50:09.079 now we're sort of telling your story of how you change your life and you 699 00:50:09.119 --> 00:50:13.800 still wanted to be here. So is that what it is for you now 700 00:50:13.880 --> 00:50:16.320 that I really want to be here. Not only am I not going to 701 00:50:16.360 --> 00:50:21.159 go with my original plan to die by suicide, I want to stay. 702 00:50:21.360 --> 00:50:24.760 Do you know the first moment that I felt that was just last year. 703 00:50:25.079 --> 00:50:29.639 It was near the end of last year. I was talking to my girlfriend 704 00:50:30.119 --> 00:50:31.920 and I said, for the first time in my life, I want to 705 00:50:31.960 --> 00:50:36.880 grow old. Wait, like I want a girlfriend, girlfriend or friend that's 706 00:50:36.920 --> 00:50:42.840 a girl. Okay, So my Girlfrienday, she's amazing, and she listened 707 00:50:42.880 --> 00:50:46.360 to your podcast. She's a never mo but she used to to podcast. 708 00:50:46.639 --> 00:50:52.119 It probably helps her understand your wacky, crazy bullshit. Absolutely does, and 709 00:50:52.159 --> 00:50:55.000 she says, Hi, by the way, Hi, lots of love, 710 00:50:55.119 --> 00:51:00.440 lots of love. So even after you had left the church, you were 711 00:51:00.440 --> 00:51:04.440 still kind of like, I mean, that's how deeply embedded the bullshit is. 712 00:51:04.639 --> 00:51:07.000 And Chris had this plan for how many years again, seventeen years, 713 00:51:07.039 --> 00:51:10.639 seventeen fucking nuts. Yeah, yeah, so you had to adopt this new 714 00:51:10.679 --> 00:51:15.800 plan thanks to the life coach. But then, like believing it that Okay, 715 00:51:15.880 --> 00:51:19.320 I'm not gonna do this thing anymore. I'm gonna I'm gonna live. 716 00:51:20.119 --> 00:51:23.760 Like when did you fully embrace that? And you said just last year that's 717 00:51:23.800 --> 00:51:28.360 like, damn it. Not only am I gonna live, I want to 718 00:51:28.480 --> 00:51:31.159 live. Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna crush this shit. Yeah. When 719 00:51:31.159 --> 00:51:35.199 did that come about? Yeah? It was just I don't know, it 720 00:51:35.280 --> 00:51:39.400 was kind of random. I was just really appreciating the love that I have 721 00:51:39.559 --> 00:51:44.360 with her, and just you know, things were going well with my kids, 722 00:51:44.440 --> 00:51:47.199 and you know, the book was coming together, and I just felt 723 00:51:47.239 --> 00:51:51.880 like so much hope for the future for the first time, instead of dreading 724 00:51:51.920 --> 00:51:55.159 the future, instead of dreading you know, fulfilling my personal destiny as a 725 00:51:55.159 --> 00:52:00.119 wife and mother for eternity. Now, I was like, oh, I 726 00:52:00.159 --> 00:52:02.639 can be something else and I don't even have to think about eternity. Oh 727 00:52:02.719 --> 00:52:07.639 my god, that's so freeing. I can just enjoy this life. Yeah, 728 00:52:07.840 --> 00:52:10.760 love that. What are your days like looking forward now that you're not 729 00:52:10.800 --> 00:52:16.559 a fucking Mormon. I am enjoying the fact that I don't know everything. 730 00:52:16.639 --> 00:52:22.159 Ah. Yeah, Like I have become very settled and comfortable with sitting in 731 00:52:22.199 --> 00:52:27.880 that uncertainty and I've discovered that I don't have to have all the answers and 732 00:52:27.920 --> 00:52:30.159 I don't have to look to somebody else for answers for me. That's huge, 733 00:52:30.239 --> 00:52:34.960 that right there is it's huge. Yes, yeah, because, like 734 00:52:35.000 --> 00:52:37.159 you know, when you're in these high demand religion, especially Mormonism in this 735 00:52:37.239 --> 00:52:42.320 case, but just having it all planned out, and I just imagine that 736 00:52:42.360 --> 00:52:45.920 it has to be terrifying to suddenly one day you leave and now you don't 737 00:52:46.079 --> 00:52:47.960 have it all planned out. You don't have a plan, You don't have 738 00:52:49.039 --> 00:52:52.000 a plan, you don't have a belief. Yeah, you're ostracized from friends 739 00:52:52.000 --> 00:52:55.199 and family. Yeah, you knew everything beforehand, and now you fucking know 740 00:52:55.559 --> 00:52:59.719 nothing except you don't want to be there anymore. But you know nothing. 741 00:52:59.719 --> 00:53:02.400 You have no faith, you have no belief in an afterlife. You don't 742 00:53:02.440 --> 00:53:06.199 know what you're supposed to be doing, you don't know who you are. 743 00:53:07.280 --> 00:53:09.719 Some scary ship. Anyone listening who's been through that, You're gonna make it 744 00:53:09.760 --> 00:53:14.119 through. It's gonna be okay. I don't think we ever get finished, 745 00:53:14.440 --> 00:53:16.320 but we can get past that ship and figure out who we want to be, 746 00:53:16.440 --> 00:53:20.519 what we want to do, and look forward to the discovery of not 747 00:53:20.639 --> 00:53:22.400 knowing everything, and what can I learn today or tomorrow? You know I 748 00:53:22.440 --> 00:53:25.400 love that too, Yeah, because I'm not not just having to learn how 749 00:53:25.400 --> 00:53:32.280 to fucking bake bread and change diapers. I'm like, I know that ship 750 00:53:32.360 --> 00:53:37.360 as to wither without a bread machine. With bread machine, that I wasn't 751 00:53:37.440 --> 00:53:45.840 that good. I'm just che You just throw all those ingredients in there, 752 00:53:47.800 --> 00:53:52.760 either, did I? Although I did my ex and I shelled out thousands 753 00:53:52.760 --> 00:54:00.599 and thousands of dollars to get full one year supplies of food for fucking family 754 00:54:00.679 --> 00:54:06.800 of nine, Like hello, no wonder. We ended up like we were 755 00:54:07.480 --> 00:54:09.840 preparing for the Second Coming and we didn't want our You're not in Missouri, 756 00:54:09.920 --> 00:54:15.119 it doesn't count. You have to be in the right stay well, the 757 00:54:15.159 --> 00:54:19.480 devil is gonna come and the whole world's gonna break down and who knows, 758 00:54:19.559 --> 00:54:22.559 zombies and shit whatever, and we had to be ready. You know what 759 00:54:22.639 --> 00:54:29.400 should cost to fucking have a year supply of dehydrated feet and like unground wheat 760 00:54:29.519 --> 00:54:32.679 for nine people. I would rather get killed by the zombie than have to 761 00:54:32.679 --> 00:54:38.519 eat that ship. What a stupid life we lived, Chris, It was 762 00:54:38.639 --> 00:54:46.000 meaningless busy word God, and you heard it here folks. Ye, that's 763 00:54:46.000 --> 00:54:52.719 their new tagline. What the Church of Jesus Christ's latter days sayings meaningless busy 764 00:54:52.760 --> 00:54:57.079 word. I'm gonna get spray paint. Don't tell the cops. I'm gonna 765 00:54:57.119 --> 00:55:00.000 get spray paint and go put that underneath all the Church of Jesus Christ will 766 00:55:00.920 --> 00:55:07.159 on the churches. I love that. What if we missed here and this? 767 00:55:07.440 --> 00:55:10.760 I know we kind of jumped from We jumped a lot. We did. 768 00:55:10.840 --> 00:55:15.519 That's what we do. Let me tell you about my book, please 769 00:55:15.559 --> 00:55:21.199 do. I started writing it just a stream of consciousness, and I ended 770 00:55:21.280 --> 00:55:24.960 up with two different stories. And so it was a challenge, a fun 771 00:55:25.039 --> 00:55:30.280 challenge to combine those two stories into one book. Did you pray for inspiration 772 00:55:30.400 --> 00:55:36.760 on that? Did you show? There was no prayer involved in the book? 773 00:55:37.599 --> 00:55:44.480 Carry on? In the writing of this book, each chapter has two 774 00:55:44.480 --> 00:55:49.039 halves. So the first half of each chapter is a nostalgic story about my 775 00:55:49.159 --> 00:55:52.559 childhood growing up in bangor Main, you know, a lot of them with 776 00:55:52.639 --> 00:55:58.559 my brother or my grandparents or whatever. Just something happy and something a little 777 00:55:58.599 --> 00:56:01.800 playful, little humorous. And then the second half of these chapter tells a 778 00:56:01.840 --> 00:56:06.760 traumatic story of being in the church as a woman or as a gay person, 779 00:56:06.960 --> 00:56:10.119 or with my kid or whatever. And so in each chapter I develop 780 00:56:10.159 --> 00:56:15.159 a theme and I draw that thread through both halves of the chapters. Interesting, 781 00:56:15.760 --> 00:56:19.519 it's a badass, so it kind of balances out some of the heaviness, 782 00:56:19.880 --> 00:56:22.519 brings in some levity. It's just easier to digest. Sure, yeah, 783 00:56:22.559 --> 00:56:25.519 awesome, get that. So, Chris, your book is out. 784 00:56:25.760 --> 00:56:29.880 How do people get a copy of it? And I want to say the 785 00:56:29.880 --> 00:56:34.440 title again, it's called Worthy, the Memoir of an Ex Mormon Lesbian by 786 00:56:34.519 --> 00:56:37.119 Chris Davis. That's you, that's me. Yeah, how do you get 787 00:56:37.119 --> 00:56:40.960 a copy? So I'm getting them into some local main bookstores. But also 788 00:56:42.199 --> 00:56:46.440 it'll be available on Amazon, and it'll be the ebook, the hardcover, 789 00:56:46.599 --> 00:56:51.000 and the paperback are all coming out at the same time. Nice, because 790 00:56:51.039 --> 00:56:53.280 you know how I like to order on Amazon. Still, still, it's 791 00:56:53.320 --> 00:56:58.440 a habit. You can find links on my website Chris Davisproud dot com. 792 00:56:58.519 --> 00:57:04.519 Chris Chris Davis dot dot and Chris is spelled C h R I S. 793 00:57:04.639 --> 00:57:07.199 Davis. Yes, Chris Davis Proud dot com. I'm gonna put all this 794 00:57:07.239 --> 00:57:10.440 in the show notes. Well, Chris, I want everyone to pick up 795 00:57:10.480 --> 00:57:13.920 your book. Yeah, seriously, people, I know we cover a lot 796 00:57:13.920 --> 00:57:16.519 here, but there there is so much more. I know the story beginning 797 00:57:16.519 --> 00:57:21.800 to end it if you would like a story that follows a linear line and 798 00:57:21.880 --> 00:57:24.280 isn't jumping around like the way we do an interview. What the book is 799 00:57:24.320 --> 00:57:30.639 for you? Once again, it's called Worthy, The Memoir of an Ex 800 00:57:30.679 --> 00:57:37.960 Mormon Lesbian. Look for it on Amazon or Chris Davisproud dot com. Chris, 801 00:57:37.000 --> 00:57:39.639 thank you so much for joining us. Yes, this has been awesome. 802 00:57:39.840 --> 00:57:43.719 It took a while to connect and here here we are. It was 803 00:57:43.760 --> 00:57:46.280 such a delight. Sorry, we talked too much. No, never, 804 00:57:47.199 --> 00:57:54.760 thank you, Mary. Never apologize. Shelley talks too much. I was 805 00:57:55.039 --> 00:58:00.599 just about to say, she's probably apologizing for me. He's gonna do a 806 00:58:00.639 --> 00:58:07.960 blanket apology for the last four years. I'm sorry everybody. Sorry, bitch 807 00:58:07.000 --> 00:58:15.519 Eggs. That's part of why we love her. I have to just disclose 808 00:58:15.599 --> 00:58:19.280 that you guys are in my acknowledgments in my book. Help me laugh my 809 00:58:19.360 --> 00:58:23.800 way to a place of healing. Shit. That's lovely. So what percentage 810 00:58:23.800 --> 00:58:32.800 of royalties? We'll talk about that later. About it forever in the same 811 00:58:32.840 --> 00:58:37.920 town. You buy us a beer and We're good. You got it, 812 00:58:37.039 --> 00:58:42.280 Chris, thanks again, Thank you. Chris is fun. I hope being 813 00:58:42.280 --> 00:58:45.960 able to hear from her on the podcast gets you to like feel her a 814 00:58:45.960 --> 00:58:49.039 bit. I like to know the authors. I like to know who they 815 00:58:49.039 --> 00:58:52.039 are outside of the writings of the books. So, Chris, you're fucking 816 00:58:52.079 --> 00:58:54.360 awesome. Feel her a bit? Huh? Not like feel up her a 817 00:58:54.360 --> 00:59:01.800 bit? Although sure whatever, I don't know what ual consent informed consent. 818 00:59:01.880 --> 00:59:07.599 Please Jesus, Mary and Joseph, you could feel the book clutch as you 819 00:59:07.639 --> 00:59:13.039 want. Absolutely. Uh huh. How are we doing? Wait before we 820 00:59:13.119 --> 00:59:15.320 jump to patrons. Yeah, oh, we got to take a commercial break 821 00:59:15.360 --> 00:59:20.679 anyway. Oh, before we get into patrons. See right back, Hey, 822 00:59:20.719 --> 00:59:24.199 listeners. The Exmo candlecoat, maker of the yummy, smelling and subversive 823 00:59:24.400 --> 00:59:29.880 gay away the Prey Candle, is giving away you guessed it, candies, 824 00:59:30.440 --> 00:59:36.960 Nope, try again, candles. More specifically, they're exchanging candles for reviews 825 00:59:37.000 --> 00:59:39.960 of candles. Here's how it works. 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Twelve lucky winners, chosen 831 01:00:04.000 --> 01:00:08.119 at random from the pile of reviews will receive an intriguing mystery candle from the 832 01:00:08.119 --> 01:00:15.559 Exmo candle Cose Permanent Collection Ooh, mysterious and smelly in the best way. 833 01:00:15.960 --> 01:00:19.840 The drawing will be held on Thanksgiving Day, So hit the contact tab at 834 01:00:19.840 --> 01:00:24.000 the top of their website and submit a review. Now we are back. 835 01:00:24.559 --> 01:00:28.880 Hello. Okay, I was about to jump into supercast. Bit. Let's 836 01:00:28.880 --> 01:00:31.480 tell patrons, okay, I can do supercast. First, do it. 837 01:00:31.800 --> 01:00:37.960 We've got one supercast member today. Uh, we're going to celebrate the heck 838 01:00:37.960 --> 01:00:44.119 out of her. Yeah, Michelle O D O dot D something like that. 839 01:00:44.599 --> 01:00:47.320 God, so we need an O dot D for what you are worthy 840 01:00:47.360 --> 01:00:52.639 of. She might have an Irish surname, Oh like O'Donnell or O daughtry 841 01:00:52.800 --> 01:01:01.000 or O Dingleberry. That's rare. Did I make it sound right? Oh? 842 01:01:02.599 --> 01:01:07.639 I think was better to marry your team. Shelley on the didgeridoo. 843 01:01:07.000 --> 01:01:10.320 Don't make me do therremon noisees and egg? The fuck is a theremon? 844 01:01:10.599 --> 01:01:13.599 Yeah, you don't know. We'll talk about it later. I don't think 845 01:01:13.599 --> 01:01:15.440 anyone do raise your hand if you know what a therminda is. No one 846 01:01:15.559 --> 01:01:19.960 raised their hand. There mind coming up in the future anyway. Okay, 847 01:01:20.039 --> 01:01:25.360 so o d what was the first name again? Michelle? Michelle, she's 848 01:01:25.400 --> 01:01:32.800 worthy of something. She's worthy of onion dip. Damn right, not that 849 01:01:32.920 --> 01:01:38.000 you ever weren't worthy of it. I'm not sure everyone's worthy, Michelle, 850 01:01:38.000 --> 01:01:42.119 you are especially worthy of onion dip. And you know what, you get 851 01:01:42.159 --> 01:01:45.599 to pick whatever chip you want to dip into your onion dip self. That's 852 01:01:45.639 --> 01:01:50.639 weird. This is getting weird. Mary's sounding like Shelley right now. But 853 01:01:50.760 --> 01:01:53.159 you don't like onion dep No, I do, but sure you go with 854 01:01:53.199 --> 01:01:57.880 a wavy lace. I don't like the wavy lace. You know, they 855 01:01:57.960 --> 01:02:01.159 just crunch weird? Can we move on from Michelle ode Michelle onion dip onion 856 01:02:01.199 --> 01:02:07.519 dip? We apply don't have any onion allergies because then, yeah, I 857 01:02:07.519 --> 01:02:09.519 couldn't have I couldn't eat that. No, your body's not worth it. 858 01:02:09.599 --> 01:02:13.719 I don't onions. No, it's not great for me, but Michelle, 859 01:02:13.800 --> 01:02:16.360 you enjoy that onion dip. It's all you worthy. Yep, Oh that 860 01:02:16.440 --> 01:02:21.599 was a long one, Sure was all right. Patrons, the first patron 861 01:02:21.679 --> 01:02:23.639 I have I think is a left and come back patron. And by the 862 01:02:23.639 --> 01:02:28.280 way, that's awesome. Yeah, no judgment here, no, no. 863 01:02:28.440 --> 01:02:30.519 Sometimes the new names we give to new patrons, they just don't stick. 864 01:02:31.039 --> 01:02:34.480 Oh yeah, that's true. You're making us come up with a brand new 865 01:02:34.559 --> 01:02:37.400 name for you every time. Everyone gets a new name every time you rejoin. 866 01:02:37.039 --> 01:02:39.960 But don't just like join and then quit and then join and them quit 867 01:02:40.039 --> 01:02:43.920 like days at a time to get new name new names, because we'll run 868 01:02:43.960 --> 01:02:45.239 out of new names. It we'll start giving you shit names. When we 869 01:02:45.360 --> 01:02:52.199 noticed that already we already get onion dip. I just did that. Fine, 870 01:02:52.400 --> 01:02:57.800 Okay, This new repeat patron, which we love you, thank you, 871 01:02:57.920 --> 01:03:02.000 is j M last new G JMG. So are we coming up with 872 01:03:02.079 --> 01:03:06.239 three things? No, that's too well, we could try so just the 873 01:03:06.400 --> 01:03:09.599 MG. What do we know? JAM is the first name jam j M. 874 01:03:10.039 --> 01:03:13.440 We're just coming up with G. Yes, there's a last name. 875 01:03:13.559 --> 01:03:15.519 Oh but we're just doing G. Well, I did the last one. 876 01:03:15.519 --> 01:03:21.679 What is JM worthy of? J M? You are worthy of You can't 877 01:03:21.679 --> 01:03:25.880 stop thinking about onion dip. I still like these were all o's more onion 878 01:03:25.880 --> 01:03:32.880 dip lan you're worthy of I was gonna say good things, but that seems 879 01:03:32.880 --> 01:03:37.519 so lame, and like, sorry, you try, you try. Let 880 01:03:37.599 --> 01:03:39.840 me see, woo, I got it, I got you do I do? 881 01:03:40.239 --> 01:03:44.800 And I don't know the age of this person. Okay, JMG, 882 01:03:45.079 --> 01:03:50.079 but your g is now geriatric care. Well, like when the time comes, 883 01:03:50.119 --> 01:03:52.679 when the time comes, I'm not sure if you're like nineteen years old 884 01:03:52.760 --> 01:03:54.239 or ninety nine, I don't know, but when the time comes, you're 885 01:03:54.280 --> 01:03:58.159 worthy of it. Yeah, when the time comes, God damn it, 886 01:03:58.400 --> 01:04:04.159 JM, you are worthy of good geriatric care. Double g's with a sound 887 01:04:04.239 --> 01:04:09.800 and a hard and a soft G. That's that's double points two for JM. 888 01:04:09.840 --> 01:04:12.480 Drops off again. I'll be like, fuck, what are we gonna 889 01:04:12.519 --> 01:04:16.440 do next time? Well, not geriatric care, because you're only worthy of 890 01:04:16.440 --> 01:04:19.760 that once in your life for good time. Don't be greedy greedy another G 891 01:04:19.920 --> 01:04:24.400 name that is a G. Huh? All right, thank you, JM. 892 01:04:24.480 --> 01:04:28.800 Who is our next patron? Katie C? We know Katie? Oh 893 01:04:28.840 --> 01:04:30.519 we do. Let's give her a weird one. We have partied with Katie. 894 01:04:30.519 --> 01:04:33.639 We've gone to concerts with Katie. Katie's a fucking badass. Yeah she 895 01:04:33.840 --> 01:04:38.599 is. Okay, let's see she deserves a badass worthy name. I think 896 01:04:38.599 --> 01:04:41.760 our dog bit Katie one time. Oh Domino did he? Yeah, he's 897 01:04:41.840 --> 01:04:45.559 kind of an assholes. I mean he's a sweetheart, but somehow he just 898 01:04:45.599 --> 01:04:48.840 flips out when people stand up and walk he for sure? Does? I 899 01:04:48.840 --> 01:04:51.079 mean he didn't break the skin? Maybe he did. I don't know. 900 01:04:51.119 --> 01:04:54.920 Sorry, Katie, Sorry, Katy is awful. Actually, we should probably 901 01:04:54.920 --> 01:04:58.679 give her a good c name. Oh she is worthy of that, but 902 01:04:58.679 --> 01:05:01.960 I'm not gonna say it out loud. It's your turn. I think Katie 903 01:05:02.039 --> 01:05:06.199 is worthy of Oh you know what, Katie has a lot of cats. 904 01:05:06.719 --> 01:05:11.840 Well, she's like a cat lady more than one. No, I know, 905 01:05:11.920 --> 01:05:14.599 I love her cats. I've taken a nap with her cat. Complaining 906 01:05:14.599 --> 01:05:17.159 about Katie's cats, you complain about my cats? I do. I'm not 907 01:05:17.199 --> 01:05:19.920 really a cat person. No. It's the funny thing about Mary not liking 908 01:05:19.960 --> 01:05:24.000 cats is the more she dislikes my cats, the more they like her. 909 01:05:24.239 --> 01:05:27.320 Fucking assholes. That's how cats work like. I don't think you like me. 910 01:05:27.679 --> 01:05:30.960 I think against you. I know you don't have to rub against me. 911 01:05:30.159 --> 01:05:38.920 I didn't give consent to that activity. She asked, well, you 912 01:05:39.360 --> 01:05:43.400 no means no, but you didn't answer in a cat land, if I 913 01:05:43.480 --> 01:05:45.679 could learn no and cats speak, do you want to hear what it sounds 914 01:05:45.719 --> 01:05:54.079 like? Okay, maybe a swize? Well played. Okay, so Katie, 915 01:05:54.159 --> 01:05:57.119 catty cats. You're worthy of your cats. That's very sweet. I 916 01:05:57.119 --> 01:06:00.599 know I love your cats. Okay, who's next? S W? S 917 01:06:00.800 --> 01:06:03.719 W? But just the W part? Well, yeah, no, she 918 01:06:03.800 --> 01:06:06.159 gave me a name, but I'm just doing the W. Okay, what 919 01:06:06.320 --> 01:06:10.480 you got? So s W. I hope you know who we're talking about 920 01:06:10.480 --> 01:06:12.679 here, because I don't know if we've had a lot of sw's. But 921 01:06:12.679 --> 01:06:17.119 anyway, s witchcraft witchcraft. You do whatever kind of weird, funky ass 922 01:06:17.159 --> 01:06:24.159 witchcrafty thing you want. You are worthy of exploring whatever you want, which 923 01:06:24.239 --> 01:06:29.119 you witch. Well. Also, worthy itself starts with a W. Yeah, 924 01:06:29.159 --> 01:06:32.440 but b S worthy could be No, that doesn't work because worthy is 925 01:06:32.480 --> 01:06:35.880 what everyone's getting there, worthy of what they're worthy of? Worthy? What 926 01:06:35.960 --> 01:06:40.400 if this person doesn't want to be worthy of witchcraft? I'm just throwing that 927 01:06:40.440 --> 01:06:43.239 out. It doesn't matter if they want it or not. They are worthy 928 01:06:43.400 --> 01:06:47.800 of witchcraft if they choose. Okay, and witchcraft can be interpreted in multiple 929 01:06:47.800 --> 01:06:53.320 ways. So all right, interesting, weird. Like I said, Wicked, 930 01:06:53.400 --> 01:06:56.199 I didn't like, like like narrow it down to one thing. Is 931 01:06:56.239 --> 01:06:58.760 that a religion? By the way, Wicked, Well, I didn't say 932 01:06:58.800 --> 01:07:00.440 it was a religion. Well, I don't know. I don't know anything 933 01:07:00.440 --> 01:07:02.119 about it. It's a spiritual belief, is it? I don't know? 934 01:07:02.480 --> 01:07:04.880 All you wickens right in? Let us know what it is there you go, 935 01:07:05.039 --> 01:07:09.000 or we can google. But that's less fun next to Linda, h 936 01:07:09.280 --> 01:07:14.599 Linda, it's me huh. The obvious thing would be to say Linda is 937 01:07:14.639 --> 01:07:17.400 worthy of happiness. Oh that's very sweet, but that's a little boring. 938 01:07:17.480 --> 01:07:24.199 So what about handbags? Linda might be worthy of handbags? Maybe maybe Linda 939 01:07:24.239 --> 01:07:29.159 leg's handbags and collecting them. Maybe handbags makes Linda happy? And another two 940 01:07:29.159 --> 01:07:31.760 for maybe maybe they do. Linda. Listen, you are you are worthy 941 01:07:31.800 --> 01:07:36.360 of handbags. As many fucking handbags as it takes to get you happy. 942 01:07:36.440 --> 01:07:41.239 Collect them all, collect them all, like them all? Yeah, like 943 01:07:41.239 --> 01:07:44.519 pokemon. Okay, thanks, Linda, we have one more. Uh, 944 01:07:44.920 --> 01:07:47.360 Kaylee didn't give us a last name at all, So Kaylee, I feel 945 01:07:47.360 --> 01:07:50.199 like when people don't give us last names, we just go little nutty pants. 946 01:07:50.400 --> 01:07:54.400 Okay, so what do you got, Shelley. Let's go with Kaylee. 947 01:07:54.480 --> 01:07:58.159 Let's use her first initial for Kaylee. So Kaylee, K We're going 948 01:07:58.199 --> 01:08:00.400 with k. Okay. So hey is the word you're trying to find? 949 01:08:00.400 --> 01:08:03.840 Okay, which are a great one. Kaylie, you are worthy of kicking 950 01:08:03.920 --> 01:08:08.519 ass. Oh yeah, Kayla, get out there and kick some ass. 951 01:08:08.519 --> 01:08:13.119 There is nothing ass kicking that you can't do because you are worthy of all 952 01:08:13.159 --> 01:08:15.920 of it, all the ass kicking, all of it. I like. 953 01:08:15.960 --> 01:08:19.720 Get well. Thanks all the patrons and supercast members today. Reminder, if 954 01:08:19.760 --> 01:08:24.720 you would like to toss us a little love, we sure appreciate it. 955 01:08:24.800 --> 01:08:30.119 Please visit Latterday Lesbian dot org slash support. All right, can we wrap 956 01:08:30.119 --> 01:08:33.159 this up? Wrap it up? All right? Thanks everyone? Thanks to 957 01:08:33.359 --> 01:08:39.399 Dan from Extension Audio. Thanks for leaving it in Dan, We sure appreciate 958 01:08:39.439 --> 01:08:42.960 you, and remember steer clear of those cults because they are no joke, 959 01:08:43.119 --> 01:08:46.079 no joke at all. Talk to you later. I