1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:07,280 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:12,080 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,039 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,280 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:24,640 murders, and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together 6 00:00:24,719 --> 00:00:28,519 with Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a 7 00:00:28,559 --> 00:00:32,479 researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social 8 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:37,799 media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 9 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:48,960 in crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly 10 00:00:49,079 --> 00:00:54,759 and I'm Bill Thomas. We're joined today by Carrie Droben, author of Aurora, 11 00:00:55,119 --> 00:00:59,840 the psychiatrist who treated the movie Theater Killer tells her story. It is 12 00:00:59,880 --> 00:01:03,240 a fascinating book and we are so thrilled to have you on the podcast. 13 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:06,599 Kerry, thank you for joining us today. Thank you so much for having 14 00:01:06,599 --> 00:01:08,760 me. It's my pleasure. Start by telling us a little bit about your 15 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:12,879 professional background, because you've got a heck of one, thank you. I 16 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:19,280 think that my background as a criminal defense attorney really is it compliments my true 17 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:26,319 crime writing career very well. I was a criminal defense attorney for about twenty 18 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:30,879 five years, and I at one time specialized in capital litigation, so I 19 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:37,319 really knew the ins and outs of death penalty litigation, had many clients who 20 00:01:37,359 --> 00:01:42,640 were some were serial killers other but so I really felt like I knew that 21 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:46,079 world, and I was well versed in that language and then that kind of 22 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:49,879 pathology, and so that was really my background before going into true crime. 23 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:55,760 But I started in poetry, of all things. So I spent a lot 24 00:01:55,799 --> 00:02:00,480 of years studying poetry and trying to do the create of writing professor a route, 25 00:02:00,959 --> 00:02:04,760 and then the recession hit and I wound up going into criminal work. 26 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:08,800 So it was a very weirdly circuitous way of getting into the true crime arena. 27 00:02:09,039 --> 00:02:13,759 But as is often the case where people wind up writing true crime, 28 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:17,879 they have something in their history that leads them into that arena. In my 29 00:02:19,599 --> 00:02:25,639 foray into first writing about outlaw motorcycle gangs and undercover investigations, I was also 30 00:02:25,759 --> 00:02:30,719 very well versed in that because at the time I was married to an undercover 31 00:02:31,159 --> 00:02:38,719 detective, and my background. I grew up with parents who were covert operatives 32 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:45,319 in the CIA, so I really had it was very well poised to be 33 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:47,039 in the world of true crime. And by the way, they're retired, 34 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:51,919 so I'm a lot of talk about it. You're not outing them at this 35 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:54,599 moment. I am not outing them. No, they've already out of themselves. 36 00:02:54,599 --> 00:02:59,000 But it's an interesting path and I think it really marries well with what 37 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:01,800 I got into and why I can really speak to that and write about those 38 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:09,199 worlds. So what actually cut your attention in this rather amazing story of doctor 39 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:16,439 Lynn Finton and her work with James Holmes The Aurora mass shooter. Aurora is 40 00:03:16,479 --> 00:03:22,120 a fascinating case on so many levels. I think at the time that Aurora 41 00:03:22,199 --> 00:03:24,599 happened, and of course the anniversary of Aura was just this past July. 42 00:03:25,039 --> 00:03:30,199 It was the mass shooting that occurred at a Colorado movie theater under li twentieth 43 00:03:30,199 --> 00:03:36,360 of twenty twelve. To storymind, the listeners were James Holmes walked into a 44 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:43,520 movie theater and massacred twelve people and injured seventy two others. And what was 45 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:47,599 striking about his story is that he at the time was the only mass shooter 46 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:53,960 to have deliberately survived his shooting. He did this ostensibly so that people could 47 00:03:54,000 --> 00:04:01,080 study his brain. So whether that's arrogance or your curiosity, who knows, 48 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:06,960 But that was really the impetus behind him doing this and plotting it and methodically 49 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:13,639 going about putting the whole thing together. Partly the fascination. The other extraordinary 50 00:04:13,639 --> 00:04:17,959 thing about this case is that doctor Fenton is the only continues to be the 51 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:24,920 only psychiatrist in the history of psychiatrists who has ever been publicly outed as the 52 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:30,480 treating psychiatrist of a mass shooter. So we had an inside view of what 53 00:04:30,519 --> 00:04:35,839 it was like to treat a mass shooter before he commits this heinous crime, 54 00:04:36,399 --> 00:04:42,639 and so that was well worth delving deeply into that to find out what insights 55 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:46,600 can we learn from that. That's really the big question, why why does 56 00:04:46,639 --> 00:04:49,959 this happen? Why is this now an epidemic in our country, and how 57 00:04:49,959 --> 00:04:55,199 can we stop it? And so that was really the premise behind the book. 58 00:04:55,319 --> 00:05:00,000 How do you spot in stop a mass shooter? The really sad response 59 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:03,439 to that is you can't stop one, but you can spot one, perhaps 60 00:05:03,639 --> 00:05:09,759 with different criteria, so that on those levels it was really a fascinating book 61 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:15,160 and a fascinating study of criminal pathology, and fascinating too that you have it 62 00:05:15,199 --> 00:05:20,839 from a psychiatrist who has taken an oath to do no harm and really advanced 63 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:26,319 this kind of extraordinary statement. Really, it wasn't a theory of the statement 64 00:05:26,399 --> 00:05:30,040 that she believed James Holmes was evil and not mentally ill. And that's really 65 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:34,600 quite a powerful statement for a psychiatrists to make. Yeah, tell us a 66 00:05:34,639 --> 00:05:39,920 little bit more, if you would, about how doctor Fenton was outed, 67 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:46,399 because this is so unusual. Usually doctor's psychologist psychiatrists remain in the background and 68 00:05:46,439 --> 00:05:50,439 their treatment is confidential. How did this happen? So this was an extraordinary 69 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:55,759 moment in her career. She learned. There's a lot that led up to 70 00:05:55,759 --> 00:06:00,560 it, But she had six sessions with James Holmes, and the whole time 71 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:03,680 that she's meeting him and treating him, she has no idea that he is 72 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:09,560 amassing an arsenal. And I should mention that James Holmes was a doctoral student 73 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:14,240 in the neurosciences program at one of the most prestigious universities in the country. 74 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:18,800 He was under the tutelage of many of the most prestigious professors in the country, 75 00:06:19,079 --> 00:06:25,000 and doctor Fenton herself was highly qualified, in the top one percent of 76 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:28,480 her profession, so she was really the cream of the crop. So you 77 00:06:28,519 --> 00:06:33,399 have just the perfect storm there. So she's outed when Holmes's defense attorney puts 78 00:06:33,439 --> 00:06:39,319 her name in emotion to the judge, and that is never done. And 79 00:06:39,399 --> 00:06:43,199 there was some speculation as I was writing this whether or not that was a 80 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:49,879 deliberate act on the part of the defense lawyer to maybe steer the attention away 81 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:56,160 from Holmes and put it on doctor Fenton, because that's certainly everybody wants someone 82 00:06:56,199 --> 00:07:00,399 to blame. Everyone wants a place to put their race, and so she 83 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:04,360 was a perfect target and put her name in the motion, and the rest 84 00:07:04,439 --> 00:07:08,480 was history, because as soon as everybody found out her name was outed, 85 00:07:08,759 --> 00:07:13,560 her life was in danger. She received death threats, and the university had 86 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:16,800 to really hide her. She left the state at one point, she had 87 00:07:16,839 --> 00:07:20,160 to wear a disguise, she had to wear a bulletproof vest, and her 88 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:26,360 whole life to upside down as a result of one attorney's motion. Yeah, 89 00:07:26,399 --> 00:07:30,680 the passage where she's talking about being fitted for a bullet proof vest just sent 90 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:35,399 chills down my spine. I felt so awful for this poor woman who she 91 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:41,360 just went through hell. Talk a little bit about the media coverage and the 92 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:46,399 effect that that had on doctor Fenton's life and work. It was absolutely horrific 93 00:07:46,519 --> 00:07:49,399 what the media did to her. Yeah, so I should mention doctor Fenton's 94 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:56,120 life prior to this. She was a very well respected, very reserved psychiatrist, 95 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:58,680 So she was not somebody that would go around. She was not on 96 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:03,240 social media. She took her work very seriously and being a psychiatrist was her 97 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:07,560 second medical degree, which is really extraordinary. She went back to medical school 98 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:13,120 because she believed so strongly in mental health, got a second degree, a 99 00:08:13,199 --> 00:08:18,120 second residency. So she was really quite an extraordinary psychiatrist to begin with. 100 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:22,560 And so when she got outed, the media just hounded her to the point 101 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:28,399 where she was getting calls from every media station in the country almost on a 102 00:08:28,519 --> 00:08:33,679 daily basis. She would get hang up calls and reporters that would stake out 103 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:37,000 her house, so she couldn't even go back to her house for a quite 104 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:39,399 a long period of time. She had to get special security. She had 105 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:45,200 people following her trailing her just wanting to get a statement. At one point 106 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:48,600 she had somebody kind of dressed or disguised himself as a homeless person sitting across 107 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:52,960 the street from her trying to get a statement from her. So her whole 108 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:56,519 life was upended by this, and she wound up going into hiding for a 109 00:08:56,519 --> 00:08:58,919 little bit. And then when she decided she really she had to resign from 110 00:08:58,919 --> 00:09:03,879 her position as the head of student mental health because she couldn't be in the 111 00:09:03,879 --> 00:09:07,000 public eye. She thought she would be a danger to her students at one 112 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:11,759 point, so she just really her whole career was on the lurch. And 113 00:09:11,799 --> 00:09:16,639 in addition to all the media tension, she also had probably the specter of 114 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:20,840 being sued, being sued from practice, being sued by a victim's families, 115 00:09:20,919 --> 00:09:24,320 being sued by the Holmes family, any number of people coming out of the 116 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:28,159 woodwork. So for three years she was really under First of all, she 117 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:31,799 was under a gag order by the judge, so she couldn't even talk about 118 00:09:31,919 --> 00:09:37,879 her experiences or what she did to try to prevent or at least thwart some 119 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:41,240 kind of attack. She had she had done every she had gone above and 120 00:09:41,279 --> 00:09:46,960 beyond what a psychiatrist or any professional would have done, and yet she was 121 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:50,240 still targeted as so this is let's go winter. That's really what it was 122 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:56,799 mom mentality to make somebody pay for this sinous crime, and she was that 123 00:09:56,240 --> 00:10:01,120 poster child for it. So he took her a very long time to not 124 00:10:01,279 --> 00:10:05,399 only if you can imagine, it's bad enough that the victims' families relive this 125 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:11,039 nightmare every day. They have such a profound loss, such a hole in 126 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:16,720 their life that they cannot, in many respects, cannot recover. You've got 127 00:10:16,759 --> 00:10:20,759 doctor Fenton, who is but in a different category, even though I would 128 00:10:20,879 --> 00:10:24,360 argue she was also a victim and a target of this, but she's put 129 00:10:24,519 --> 00:10:30,559 apart from it and has to endure this in silence, and she spends it's 130 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:37,039 almost a daily barrage from her own attorneys from the university where she is interrogated 131 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:43,399 over and over again. These six sessions become her life for three years and 132 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:45,879 beyond, so that if you want to talk about a ripple effect, that 133 00:10:45,919 --> 00:10:50,559 is also a ripple effect of this crime is that she is hostage to these 134 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:54,240 sessions with homes that's all she can think about talk about. See, she 135 00:10:54,600 --> 00:11:01,440 continues to relive his presence and so it's that was a fascinating and very disturbing 136 00:11:01,519 --> 00:11:07,320 peace of this story that I don't think a lot of people realize until they 137 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:11,559 read the book or really get into that mindset. You cover other mass shooters 138 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:16,360 in the book, including the Columbine school shooters, Virginia Tech, and Newtown, 139 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:20,559 Connecticut, which is right close to where I live now, to name 140 00:11:20,639 --> 00:11:24,320 some of the most notorious ones, and then you also mentioned some other lesser 141 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:28,440 known school shooters. Do you feel like there are characteristics that all of these 142 00:11:28,639 --> 00:11:37,399 troubled individuals have in common. There are definitely commonalities, but it's impossible to 143 00:11:37,639 --> 00:11:41,440 spot a shooter a mass shooter, and that's the rub of it. I 144 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:45,200 wish there was a a checklist. If you see X, Y, and 145 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:48,360 Z, then you know they're going to become a mass shooter, and so 146 00:11:48,399 --> 00:11:50,039 therefore you take them out of the population, or can you remove them, 147 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:54,440 or you get them help. But unfortunately there really isn't. The common denominator 148 00:11:54,679 --> 00:12:01,200 really among all of them is that they are males between the ages of eighteen 149 00:12:01,279 --> 00:12:05,200 and twenty five. James Holmes was twenty four, Choe was I forget what 150 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:07,519 age he was, but he was a college student. You have that in 151 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:13,120 common. But what was surprising to me when I was researching these mass shootings 152 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:18,399 was that many of these mass shooters came from good for really like bucking the 153 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:24,039 stereotype here, they came from good families, oftentimes families that were intact families 154 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:28,399 that care about them. You're not going to in ninety percent of these cases, 155 00:12:28,399 --> 00:12:31,399 you're not going to see these mass shooters in the mental health system. 156 00:12:31,879 --> 00:12:37,279 So that's another really interesting misnomer people think they're and the homes happened to be 157 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:43,519 seen by doctor Fenton, but really just by pure luck made he was referred 158 00:12:43,639 --> 00:12:50,159 to as social worker by his professors because as a component to his neurosciences program, 159 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:54,279 he had to give presentations, he had to explain to classmates what was 160 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:58,320 happening, and he really couldn't do it. It was almost debilitating. So 161 00:12:58,399 --> 00:13:01,919 the professors thought this must be some kind of anxiety disorder, so they sent 162 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:05,120 him to a social worker on campus to say, maybe you could help him 163 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:09,720 or give him something, or help him so he can graduate. And so 164 00:13:09,799 --> 00:13:13,600 it was the social worker who had the foresight to say, this guy needs 165 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:16,639 some help. We need to keep him in the system. And what was 166 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:22,960 really striking about Holmes is he didn't exhibit any of the characteristics that somebody might 167 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:28,480 exhibit if they were very nervous or stressed out or by as a presentation. 168 00:13:28,039 --> 00:13:31,320 He wasn't like that at all. In fact, he was described as being 169 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:35,639 very robotic and mechanical and almost like a system in a sense to be studied, 170 00:13:35,639 --> 00:13:39,679 which is really unusual and strange. So again, would you even know 171 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:43,120 he is described as odd? For sure, he looked odd, as mannerisms 172 00:13:43,159 --> 00:13:48,200 were odd, But would you ever target him as a mass shooter? Probably 173 00:13:48,279 --> 00:13:52,480 not show the mass shooter of Virginia Tech. Now he was an interesting situation 174 00:13:52,639 --> 00:13:58,600 too. Here he is in creative writing classes. So how do you distinguish 175 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:03,639 between somebody who's being quote unquote creative and artistic and out there versus somebody who 176 00:14:03,879 --> 00:14:07,960 might become a mass kular And then you know, I was a professor saying 177 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:11,120 we didn't know. Really, we really couldn't distinguish the difference. He was 178 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:15,679 not strange. He wasn't in the mental health care system, although later on 179 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:18,919 they discovered he had some mental health history, But it wasn't somebody that would 180 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:24,240 have been obvious other than he was weird and off putting and students didn't like 181 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:28,240 him, and so they had that in common. So it's very difficult to 182 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:33,159 pinpoint any type of checklist. Now, I will say this what I did 183 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:37,120 discover and what I think is corroborated by the cases, and the evidence is 184 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:43,039 that many, if not most, have some type of writing that they do, 185 00:14:43,279 --> 00:14:50,000 something that they will do or leave behind to memorialize their intent, and 186 00:14:50,039 --> 00:14:54,840 so that I would say if people n counter that to pay attention to it. 187 00:14:54,159 --> 00:14:58,679 Holmes had a notebook that he wrote everything down, and of course nobody 188 00:14:58,679 --> 00:15:03,279 saw notebook until laughter the fact, but it was an artifact that was there. 189 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:07,320 Choe had all of his writings, his plays, and his poems that 190 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:11,360 were very disturbing. Many others had manifestos. Some would post things on social 191 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:16,559 media that were disturbing. Other people had videos that they posted. But in 192 00:15:16,639 --> 00:15:22,559 some way or fashion, they want to have their work recognized or acknowledged, 193 00:15:22,879 --> 00:15:26,879 which is a commonality. But again it's a word of caution. It's hard 194 00:15:26,919 --> 00:15:31,960 to know. How do you distinguish between the ones who are posting things and 195 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:37,399 not going to become many shooters and the ones that post things and record things 196 00:15:37,519 --> 00:15:41,080 or write things and become those shooters. There really isn't a rhyme or reason 197 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:45,919 to it. And that's what's really striking and frustrating. People want to put 198 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:48,440 some kind of tag on it, saying maybe if they're in the mental maybe 199 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:52,679 we need better mental health care system, maybe we need matterlin control. But 200 00:15:52,759 --> 00:15:56,679 it's unfortunately, there isn't one thing that people can point to to say, 201 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:03,000 if we had done XYZ, wouldn't have happened. And as a teacher who 202 00:16:03,039 --> 00:16:07,240 goes into a high school every single day, I clearly do have a vested 203 00:16:07,279 --> 00:16:12,320 interest in is there something we should be looking for here? Recently, earlier 204 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:17,600 in the month of January, we had a six year old shooter at a 205 00:16:17,679 --> 00:16:21,440 school here in Virginia. At that point, it's like, what do you 206 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:25,440 even say to that You've done enough research at this point. Can you speculate 207 00:16:25,559 --> 00:16:30,159 in any way about what might make a child that young resort to gun violence 208 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:32,919 or is it just as inexplicable to you as it is to the rest of 209 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:37,840 us. Again, it is inexplicable. I think there the youngest case that 210 00:16:37,879 --> 00:16:41,559 we had in Arizona, it was a seven year old I believe, who 211 00:16:41,679 --> 00:16:45,559 murdered his stepdad because the stepdad was molesting him. Now there you can see 212 00:16:45,559 --> 00:16:49,000 a connection or something going on there, But still it's disturbing, it's chilling, 213 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:52,120 it's and there again people want to say, what is that lynchpin? 214 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:56,559 Do we blame the parents? Do we blame them? And really every case 215 00:16:56,639 --> 00:17:00,600 is different, and I don't know that that's really fair to put that on 216 00:17:00,879 --> 00:17:06,039 the parents because in many of these cases, and Columbine is a great example, 217 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:10,680 parents didn't know. They had absolutely no idea. From looking at it 218 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:15,240 from the outside, you would never guess that those two individuals were going to 219 00:17:15,279 --> 00:17:18,759 go in and terrorize the high school. So it is really disturbing, and 220 00:17:18,799 --> 00:17:25,079 it's very disturbing that the mass shooters are getting younger and so and I wish 221 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:29,960 I could even say that another commonality would have been that they're looking for places 222 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:36,000 where their public domains, where they can have mass casualties and good escape routes 223 00:17:36,039 --> 00:17:40,559 and place Those were certainly the case in James home situation. He actually went 224 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:45,200 through that whole calculus. He deliberately didn't choose an airport because too much security 225 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:49,000 and he might have gotten caught, and his whole objective was to stay alive, 226 00:17:49,519 --> 00:17:53,880 so he chose a movie theater because it had huge potential for mass casualties, 227 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:56,920 and he called it a kill box and people literally sitting in there like 228 00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:00,839 sitting ducks, and so that's it's just disturbing on so many levels. And 229 00:18:02,039 --> 00:18:06,039 I think the probably the most disturbing thing for me and writing the book is 230 00:18:06,079 --> 00:18:08,839 that there wasn't a concrete answer. There wasn't a way to answer that question, 231 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:15,000 which Holmes himself poses in his notebook. He has a thirty five page 232 00:18:15,039 --> 00:18:19,599 notebook and five pages of it are devoted to one question why, And that 233 00:18:19,759 --> 00:18:25,960 word gets bigger and bigger as the pages turn, and so it's really haunting 234 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:30,240 and terrifying on so many levels. I will say, there are some things 235 00:18:30,279 --> 00:18:34,720 that can be done to maybe not spot the killers, but to at least 236 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:41,240 not be sitting ducks. We've seen countless horrors of people just taken off guard, 237 00:18:41,519 --> 00:18:45,839 surprised, unable to act, waiting for police to take action, and 238 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:48,920 when in so many of these cases, the police are going to be too 239 00:18:49,039 --> 00:18:52,960 late. These shootings happen so quickly, the casualties are so huge, So 240 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:57,359 what do you do? And so there have actually been suggestions and I think 241 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:02,960 that this might be implemented in one school maybe more now where I think the 242 00:19:03,039 --> 00:19:06,400 first thing that people have to realize is that we're living in this world now. 243 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:08,319 We can't suppose or imagine that it's going to be a different kind of 244 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:12,160 world. We have to accept the fact that this is happening. Students are 245 00:19:12,319 --> 00:19:18,599 arming and going into schools and slaughtering people, and that's a reality as horrible 246 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:22,119 and horrific as it is. So one of the ways to work that is 247 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:26,240 to not take and definitely call it a stance where you're just waiting and you're 248 00:19:26,279 --> 00:19:30,079 just sitting there waiting for somebody else to take action. So how do you 249 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:33,079 get into the kids' minds that maybe one person can be taken down. So 250 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:37,279 one of the suggestions that was made that was a little controversial was to have 251 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:41,519 a basket of rocks in each classroom where students could grab the rocks and just 252 00:19:41,559 --> 00:19:45,920 start pummeling the mass here are coming in and so it was a way to 253 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:51,680 be proactive and to arm them quote unquote arm them with something that would be 254 00:19:51,759 --> 00:19:56,200 able to stop somebody. People are coming up with with suggestions, and I 255 00:19:56,240 --> 00:20:00,599 think they're worth at least discussing and having continuing conversation of what can we do, 256 00:20:00,799 --> 00:20:06,160 How can we change this mindset that this is a reality and like it 257 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:11,640 or not, we have to now be proactive. Is I'm not opposed to 258 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:17,440 a box of rocks, not at all, But is that one step away 259 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:23,240 from insisting that every teacher in every American school be armed or do you feel 260 00:20:23,279 --> 00:20:30,960 like there's a that's a big leap from the box of rocks to insisting that 261 00:20:30,279 --> 00:20:37,160 teachers carry firearms as as if they're in law enforcement, when we actually should 262 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:41,440 be hiring them for their ability to inspire and educate our kids. I think 263 00:20:41,519 --> 00:20:45,640 there are many steps that can be taken before you reach that extreme, and 264 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:48,359 I think that some of those are starting to be implemented, if not be 265 00:20:48,599 --> 00:20:52,440 seriously considered. A lot of colleges now, for example, you can't access 266 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:56,720 the building unless you have a lanyard with your idea on it that has a 267 00:20:56,720 --> 00:21:00,759 scancode. You know, the doors automatically locked behind them, they scan and 268 00:21:00,799 --> 00:21:04,079 they're getting into the buildings. And of course this wouldn't stop show for example 269 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:08,960 Virginia Tech, but you know it might stop Evaldi Shooter for example. So 270 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:12,559 there are people that this could help. So that's one thing to implement. 271 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:18,079 Another is to have doors that are self locking, cameras outside that you can 272 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:22,240 see the whole campus or the whole area. But then again, we're talking, 273 00:21:22,319 --> 00:21:26,640 we're limiting that to the school shooters and homes. Of course, wasn't 274 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,480 a school shooter, But so what do you do with these very big, 275 00:21:29,559 --> 00:21:33,200 wide open spaces that just scream come get me. So how you bar that 276 00:21:33,319 --> 00:21:37,160 people are starting to take those measures. There's metal detectors at concert venues, 277 00:21:37,279 --> 00:21:41,160 there's people can't take in person. There are precautions that are taken. They're 278 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:44,720 taken at airports, they are taken at concert venues. They need to be 279 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:48,200 taken in schools, in my opinion, and so I just think that it 280 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:53,000 starts with a conversation that we're living in a different world and this is the 281 00:21:53,079 --> 00:21:57,559 reality, and we need to take those extra preventative measures to try to help. 282 00:21:57,599 --> 00:22:02,799 And arming a teacher, I think that's maybe that's in the future, 283 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:07,799 but I think there are steps we can take that kind of lead up to 284 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:11,319 that, And I think the basket of rocks at least empowers students and children 285 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:15,079 to say, Okay, I can do something about it. I don't have 286 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:19,720 to sit here and wait and hope that some major miscommunication the police department doesn't 287 00:22:19,759 --> 00:22:22,880 happen, and somebody's coming to the rescue. And so I think that these 288 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:27,559 are very important conversations. They're controversial, they're tugging at the heart of for 289 00:22:27,599 --> 00:22:30,839 who's in charge and who's going to take charge. And so, yeah, 290 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:33,440 he's a difficult book, but it's one of the reasons that I really wanted 291 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:40,839 to write this book. I wanted that conversation to keep going. You're listening 292 00:22:40,839 --> 00:22:44,960 to Mind over Murder, will be right back after this word from our sponsors. 293 00:22:53,319 --> 00:22:59,240 We're back here at Mindover Murder. And the sad thing is when I 294 00:22:59,279 --> 00:23:02,559 wrote the book, I didn't think that we were going to have so many 295 00:23:02,599 --> 00:23:06,240 more mass shootings, so they were going down the back. But now what's 296 00:23:06,319 --> 00:23:10,000 happening now is there are so many that it's almost as if people are becoming 297 00:23:10,039 --> 00:23:15,480 desensitized. And I think one of the reasons that I deliberately wrote Aurora in 298 00:23:15,519 --> 00:23:18,160 such a graphic way. I mean, I had to really think about who's 299 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:23,119 going to read this book. Many of the survivors say something interesting which I 300 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:26,640 actually really agree with, and they said, you cannot dumb this down, 301 00:23:27,039 --> 00:23:33,440 you can't dilute this, You can't use euphemisms or sugarcoated. This is what 302 00:23:33,599 --> 00:23:37,119 happened, and it's graphic and brutal and horrifying. And if people don't have 303 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:41,359 these images front row center, they're going to forget, They're going to get 304 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:48,400 desensitized. And so I made a very conscious decision to make it realistic, 305 00:23:48,599 --> 00:23:55,559 not sensational, but realistic. One of the extraordinary things about this was but 306 00:23:55,640 --> 00:24:00,480 the judge, I think, had a similar viewpoint. He wanted the trial 307 00:24:00,599 --> 00:24:03,440 to be public. He wanted people to be able to sit in and hear 308 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:11,079 the survivors and see the case. And it was really striking to watch it. 309 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:15,359 And I will say that it was a chance really for first responders, 310 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:18,799 for example, to get their story out because they also are part of this 311 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:22,480 ripple effect in this community where they oftentimes are not heard, their voices are 312 00:24:22,519 --> 00:24:29,039 silenced. They do this extraordinary work, they're traumatized from it, and they 313 00:24:29,079 --> 00:24:30,880 don't have a voice, they don't have a platform to say, hey, 314 00:24:32,559 --> 00:24:37,039 this is what happens to people like us. And in the Amara case, 315 00:24:37,599 --> 00:24:41,559 what happened, and what was really even compounding the tragedy was that the first 316 00:24:41,559 --> 00:24:47,200 responders were the police officers. They were coming to the theater, not knowing 317 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:51,599 what they were going to face, just seeing the scene that many have described 318 00:24:51,599 --> 00:24:55,359 as worse than a battle scene. It was absolutely horrific. And one of 319 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:59,400 the details that really struck me was they walk into this movie theater and it 320 00:24:59,519 --> 00:25:03,279 is just a slaughter. But what they see on the ground are all of 321 00:25:03,319 --> 00:25:08,119 the phones from the victims, from people that have fled out of the theater, 322 00:25:08,279 --> 00:25:12,240 from the people that were killed. Their phones are lighting up from all 323 00:25:12,279 --> 00:25:15,240 the loved ones that are trying to reach them. And that's a very eerie 324 00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:19,240 scene if you think about it, because it's like this, it's so symbolic. 325 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:23,000 You can't reach them, it's the cry for help. But that's what 326 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:27,640 the first responders really faced, and they had to get these people out of 327 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:32,319 a movie theater that is already so contained and difficult to get out of, 328 00:25:32,559 --> 00:25:37,400 and they couldn't wait. And that's again just the extraordinary courage of the police 329 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:41,319 officers who were in that theater and just responded. And they're not allowed to 330 00:25:41,319 --> 00:25:47,559 transport victims in their patrol cars to hospitals, but they did that in this 331 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:49,480 case. Is they knew if they didn't, these people would lose their lives. 332 00:25:49,519 --> 00:25:53,400 So they really were heroes and are heroes, and I think their story 333 00:25:53,720 --> 00:26:00,640 is told through Aurora and one needs to be echoed because it's really it just 334 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:04,279 nobody hears that. Nobody talks about that, and nobody talks about the survivors, 335 00:26:04,319 --> 00:26:08,400 the people that lived through that but weren't killed and are dealing with all 336 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:14,880 kinds of tragedy. And I mean from being a defense attorney and having defended 337 00:26:15,279 --> 00:26:19,200 people like Holmes, it was also a very interesting experience for me to be 338 00:26:19,279 --> 00:26:23,039 able to write this and say, oh my god, how many times have 339 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:30,400 I felt the way Holmes lawyers must have felt that you're appointed to represent these 340 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,839 really the worst of the worst. I'll say, you're pointed to represent them. 341 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:38,160 You have to have a job to do, you have to ensure that 342 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,599 they get a fair trial. And yet where do you put all of that 343 00:26:41,759 --> 00:26:45,720 trauma? That's the thing that I think people just they don't realize it. 344 00:26:45,759 --> 00:26:49,440 And so I think this book really gave me an opportunity to really address that 345 00:26:51,039 --> 00:26:55,640 from not only a personal perspective, but this is this is what happens these 346 00:26:55,799 --> 00:27:00,519 cases. It can be so easy, especially as a lawyer, to be 347 00:27:00,559 --> 00:27:03,440 given so many cases and they start to become rope where you really stop and 348 00:27:03,519 --> 00:27:07,319 think about, wait a second, each one of these cases, each one 349 00:27:07,319 --> 00:27:12,960 of these people that I represented, had families like the victims and survivors or 350 00:27:14,039 --> 00:27:18,799 homes, and it's worth taking a pause and saying, Okay, what's really 351 00:27:18,839 --> 00:27:25,039 going on here? So it was very interesting from that perspective too. It's 352 00:27:25,079 --> 00:27:27,200 a very good book, told you that off air before we started. But 353 00:27:27,559 --> 00:27:32,319 it was a brutal book and it was very hard for me to read, 354 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:34,400 and by the time I was done with it, I had to go read 355 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,599 Pride and Prejudice for a little bit to kind of act it as a palate 356 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:42,400 conswer. Definitely, the most brutal but most necessary parts of it are the 357 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:48,319 ones that you just outlined, the trial, the first responders, the survivors. 358 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:52,240 It was I had to stop a couple of times and go get tissues 359 00:27:52,279 --> 00:27:56,480 because it is very moving and affecting, and this isn't the sort of narrative 360 00:27:56,519 --> 00:28:02,079 that you get to see when you're reading books about other mass shooters like Columbine 361 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:04,720 for example, from Day of Colin It is a very different kind of book. 362 00:28:04,759 --> 00:28:08,400 But boy, it was a refereed for me. But I applaud you 363 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,720 for being able to spend this much time with that material. How did you 364 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:18,799 deal with living with this? This is tough? Yeah, yeah, it 365 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:22,160 was very very tough. It took me four years to write it, and 366 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:27,440 I think it wasn't It definitely affected me. I also had to walk away 367 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:32,200 several times. I would cry during many of the scenes writing, especially the 368 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:36,480 trial scenes. I was very moved and it would take me a while to 369 00:28:36,519 --> 00:28:40,279 decompress and say, Okay, I'm writing about real people. These are their 370 00:28:40,319 --> 00:28:42,640 lives. I can walk away and come back to it and create it, 371 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:48,279 but they're living with it twenty four seven and it's just so striking. And 372 00:28:48,319 --> 00:28:53,799 I remember really even feeling for Holmes's mom and the moms of the Columbine shooters 373 00:28:55,000 --> 00:29:00,680 and just being wow, these this is like a horrific thing to contend with 374 00:29:00,799 --> 00:29:03,519 on so many levels. It's a ripple effect is so far reaching, and 375 00:29:03,559 --> 00:29:08,839 I think that that is really where the mental health community can come in and 376 00:29:10,079 --> 00:29:14,200 really do some good service, because that's where we need it. So I 377 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:18,759 think for me, there was a lot of decompressing, going and watching comedy 378 00:29:18,039 --> 00:29:22,240 when I needed to, or going on hikes or doing what I need to 379 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:25,400 do to take it out of it because it was horrific and there wasn't And 380 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:29,359 the other thing about it is that it's not an easy book to put down 381 00:29:29,559 --> 00:29:30,839 and then come back to. So when I was in it, I was 382 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:36,240 in it, and I had to watch the twenty four hours of interviews with 383 00:29:36,279 --> 00:29:40,680 Holmes, for example, and it was very different for me than dealing on 384 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:44,279 a case, like a law case, because I really was coming at it 385 00:29:44,279 --> 00:29:48,720 from a completely different perspective and trying to understand it from the harm that this 386 00:29:48,839 --> 00:29:53,880 one individual did and the arrogance or audacity that he had to say, I 387 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:59,559 want people to study my brain. It's like to what end? To what 388 00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:03,559 end? Because really in Doctor Fenton and she and I became good friends. 389 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,720 She her life has been destroyed. It's never been the same, and I 390 00:30:07,759 --> 00:30:11,680 think it's one of those things where you just it's not even that you rebuild 391 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:15,119 your life, it's that you're literally you're starting like this is the new normal, 392 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:18,160 Like this is what it is. I'm not okay, it's not okay 393 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:22,480 to be not okay, but this is the new normal and we've got to 394 00:30:22,519 --> 00:30:26,400 press through it. And I think that was a very sobering realization as well 395 00:30:26,519 --> 00:30:32,759 that I heard many times before even starting writing this book that grief had a 396 00:30:32,799 --> 00:30:36,839 cycle, right, the five stages of grief, And I don't actually believe 397 00:30:36,839 --> 00:30:38,960 that writing after writing this book, I don't think there are stages. I 398 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,200 don't think that people get over things, and I don't think that they should 399 00:30:42,279 --> 00:30:47,839 get over things. I think they just find another path, another way through, 400 00:30:48,039 --> 00:30:52,400 in order to get through. And that I really gained a whole new 401 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:57,480 insight and respect for it because it was very difficult. I'm so glad to 402 00:30:57,519 --> 00:31:03,680 hear you say that. I don't think I've ever heard anyone articulate the fact 403 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:11,480 that this five Stages of grief is a complete croc And the only people that 404 00:31:11,599 --> 00:31:18,400 I know that talk that way haven't suffered this kind of profound loss. And 405 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:22,640 Kristin and I have both been touched by homicide, which is how we met. 406 00:31:23,119 --> 00:31:27,480 We push back quite a bit our mind over murder, of this ridiculous 407 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:33,720 idea of closure. There is no closure. There's never going to be any 408 00:31:33,799 --> 00:31:37,240 closure. I've talked to all of the other Colonial Parkway murders families. None 409 00:31:37,319 --> 00:31:41,680 of them feel like there's been an ounce of closure. Now, maybe someday 410 00:31:41,799 --> 00:31:48,279 we'll have a person or persons to identify and perhaps focus some of our rage. 411 00:31:48,759 --> 00:31:59,839 But beyond that, there is no closure. There's the before and the 412 00:32:00,119 --> 00:32:05,559 after. And I've talked to Kristen about this before. This type of event 413 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:13,559 changes your life from that moment forward forever, and you're never getting your old 414 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,720 life back, much in the same way you're not ever getting your loved ones 415 00:32:16,799 --> 00:32:21,880 back. It's over and done, and your life will be forever changed. 416 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,920 I'm not saying you won't have moments of joy. I'm not saying there won't 417 00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:31,119 be some times in your life when you will feel great happiness again, but 418 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:37,960 it's never going to be the same. I've never heard anybody counselor say the 419 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:45,599 five stages of grief really maybe aren't quite so legit. Yeah, it's a 420 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:50,839 very interesting point. Yeah, I think it's helpful to talk about it for 421 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,240 what it is. I'm very much a realist and I think that I don't 422 00:32:53,559 --> 00:32:59,759 think it's very helpful to sugarcoat things or deny I think because it's a real 423 00:33:00,039 --> 00:33:05,920 it's a raw, real emotion, and I definitely maybe because I've experienced it 424 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,960 myself, I can speak to that point. But I think it's Yeah, 425 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:13,279 I think again it's one of those These people have a hard time talking about, 426 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:16,240 hard time articulating, so they gloss it over. But I don't think 427 00:33:16,279 --> 00:33:21,000 it can be glossed over should be glossed over, because I think that does 428 00:33:21,039 --> 00:33:25,279 a disservice to not only that person who's suffering, but also the memories that 429 00:33:25,359 --> 00:33:30,640 you're trying to keep intact. It's a very tough process, and it made 430 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:36,920 even tougher when it's a life taken by a killer. When you have a 431 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:40,400 community like Ara or Hellumbine, or really any community that's been touched by this 432 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:45,240 kind of violence, it clearly does change the community. You've mentioned ripple effects 433 00:33:45,279 --> 00:33:50,279 a couple of times. What should communities who have suffered from a mass shooting 434 00:33:50,319 --> 00:33:52,759 event like this do to help heal it? But I say heal it with 435 00:33:52,799 --> 00:33:57,880 the quotation marks around it, because you can't really. But what can communities 436 00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:02,359 do to come back together after such a tragedy. I think it's really important 437 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:09,320 to acknowledge the tragedy and to be a support system for each other. And 438 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:15,159 that doesn't necessarily mean reminding each other very minute that this has happened. It 439 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:22,199 just means really just being present for your neighbors, your community, understanding acknowledging 440 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:24,960 that so that people don't become or don't have this feeling that they're a pariah 441 00:34:25,039 --> 00:34:30,400 in their own community. And I think that's unfortunately a common you call it 442 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:34,480 after effect of tragedy, where a lot of people don't quite know how to 443 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:38,719 approach people that have gone through this, and so they back then Unfortunately, 444 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:42,679 that just further isolates the people that have gone through it. So I think 445 00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:47,079 as a community, it's really important to be united and to come together acknowledge 446 00:34:47,079 --> 00:34:51,559 that this tragedy happened in your community, don't ever forget it, just be 447 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:54,519 a constant support. I know that. Here's an example. The jurors, 448 00:34:54,519 --> 00:34:59,920 for example, in Holme's case, stayed in touch. They went through something. 449 00:35:00,599 --> 00:35:04,000 And that's interesting too, because you don't really hear about that very often 450 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:07,239 interviewed on three eight hours or but you don't really hear what impact it had 451 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:10,559 on the jurors. And they are a community in and of themselves because they've 452 00:35:10,639 --> 00:35:15,880 sat through this and they've sat in judgment and that's really difficult to do. 453 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:20,519 And then in Holmes case, oh my god, like one juror, one 454 00:35:20,559 --> 00:35:24,119 hold out juror who didn't vote for that and imagine how that juror feels. 455 00:35:24,159 --> 00:35:30,039 So it's I think it's just important to acknowledge that everybody has come together from 456 00:35:30,079 --> 00:35:34,360 a place of horror, but that you can come together and make something new 457 00:35:34,519 --> 00:35:37,719 and good out of that. And that's really hard to do, but I 458 00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:45,119 think it's essential. I was very interested in one of the minor rabbit holes 459 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:50,480 that you discussed in the book is the idea about whether violent video games and 460 00:35:50,599 --> 00:35:54,920 media leads to violent behavior, because I know that one of the things Holmes 461 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:59,599 was doing was playing a lot of first person shooter games, and we have 462 00:35:59,679 --> 00:36:04,280 seen with other mass shooters. What are your thoughts on that, do violent 463 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:07,760 media and violent video games lead to violent behavior? I don't think that has 464 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:14,239 actually been proven. I think that the consensus is that if you are already 465 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:16,920 wired that way, that you're going to do whatever it is that you're going 466 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,880 to do. And I don't think that there's certainly plenty of what I call 467 00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:27,679 quote unquote normal stable children teens who love to play video games and love to 468 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:31,159 enter into that other world. And I don't personally understand it, but I 469 00:36:31,199 --> 00:36:36,280 think there is a sense of being able to be an avatar, for example, 470 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:40,159 or be another person this whole second life idea, be in that other 471 00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:46,880 world and not have any responsibilities or any repercussions that you would in this world. 472 00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:51,840 And I think that the consensus is that the majority of people can identify 473 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:54,320 or distinguish that difference that you're in that world for that period of time, 474 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:59,119 but that is not this world, the real world. And the people that 475 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:01,639 can't distinguish that, there are so many factors, so many things that are 476 00:37:01,639 --> 00:37:05,840 going to trigger them to become the mass shooter. And because we can't identify 477 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:10,440 any one single factor, Certainly somebody like Holmes who already is fantasizing about killing 478 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:14,639 people and has had this fantasy from day one, and in fact comes up 479 00:37:14,639 --> 00:37:19,639 with a human capital theory where he believes people have points and values. Certainly, 480 00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:22,360 maybe that could have been fostered further by video games, but really he 481 00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:27,119 had that philosophy and that theory before he ever touched a video game. So 482 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:34,360 it is interesting, but it's it's definitely a study and a comparison that continues 483 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:38,599 to be studied. There's not a definitive link necessarily, at least in the 484 00:37:38,639 --> 00:37:45,719 research that I've found. Does experience of researching and writing the book does that 485 00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:50,679 change your perspective as an attorney? For instance, would you take on a 486 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:55,519 case now defending a mass shooter. Let's just say, that's a really interesting 487 00:37:55,639 --> 00:38:01,880 question. And I actually, I actually know no longer represent criminal defendents, 488 00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:07,519 and I don't do capital work anymore. And I actually made the decision to 489 00:38:07,559 --> 00:38:13,880 not do capital work before I embarked on AURA. It had such an effect 490 00:38:14,039 --> 00:38:19,079 on my own view of the world that I just I couldn't do it after 491 00:38:19,119 --> 00:38:21,639 a while, and I thought the people that can do it, and I 492 00:38:21,679 --> 00:38:25,119 did it for fifteen years, and I just one day came to the conclusion 493 00:38:25,159 --> 00:38:30,360 that I don't have I don't have the will anymore to do this. And 494 00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:32,559 because I couldn't do it, I had to step down that I'm not going 495 00:38:32,599 --> 00:38:37,079 to do a service to my client if I feel this way. But doing 496 00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:44,760 homes certainly solidified that feeling that I just can't do this work. I believe 497 00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:47,320 in the constitution, I believe everybody deserves a fair trial, but I had 498 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:52,840 seen too much and I just couldn't do it. And I recognized that kind 499 00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:54,760 of later on in my career as I was reaching at the end of it 500 00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:59,480 where I thought, I don't have that feeling that a lot of these people 501 00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:04,159 over here, and then I'm fighting it, like they're really bad people and 502 00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:09,960 they've done some really horrific things. And even though I believe there's mitigation and 503 00:39:10,039 --> 00:39:15,880 there's rehabilitation, and really have come to the conclusion after Holmes that I don't 504 00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:19,519 know how much I believe in that, and I don't know how much that 505 00:39:19,639 --> 00:39:22,119 and I know the big thing is it is not to excuse a person's behavior, 506 00:39:22,199 --> 00:39:29,079 it's to mitigate their sentence. But really I don't believe that anymore. 507 00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:34,960 And so it really did affect the way I approached cases, and I had 508 00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,679 to step down from criminal work for that reason. And it's interesting, because 509 00:39:37,679 --> 00:39:43,000 I should mention this, I actually started as a prosecutor. So I started 510 00:39:43,159 --> 00:39:46,480 in my law career as a prosecutor, and I did prosecution for five years 511 00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:52,000 and then I switched over and did defense work and wound up in capital litigation 512 00:39:52,159 --> 00:39:54,559 for a very long time. And so it's just interesting the flip flop. 513 00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:59,679 You're back, And more importantly, it's good to see both perspectives, and 514 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:04,320 I'm really grateful that I have both perspectives. But I think because I am 515 00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:07,239 in a position where I can choose. Now I'm choosing not to do the 516 00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:14,119 criminal defendants. And if I pressed you on this, do you feel like 517 00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:21,559 doctor Fenton that this particular defendant is evil? I actually do. I actually 518 00:40:21,599 --> 00:40:24,280 do. And it was really interesting because when I started this project, I 519 00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:28,280 really didn't have an opinion one way or the other. And I thought, 520 00:40:29,119 --> 00:40:32,039 I'm approaching this from a very objective point of view, and I'm going to 521 00:40:32,079 --> 00:40:37,800 interview people and I do the research. But from what I have researched and 522 00:40:37,199 --> 00:40:44,400 know of homes, I really do think that hypothesis has a lot of support 523 00:40:44,559 --> 00:40:49,519 and it's and this is the interesting ps to this. I am. I 524 00:40:49,559 --> 00:40:54,239 did my thesis on the idea of whether or not there were people that were 525 00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:59,840 born evil like the double Y chromosome. Oh well, And I just find 526 00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:04,320 it so fascinating that it's come full circle on I have this project because at 527 00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:07,480 the time it was very controversial and there wasn't a lot of evidence. But 528 00:41:07,639 --> 00:41:12,239 I really do see how doctor Fenton came up with that belief, and I 529 00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:15,280 really do think there's a lot of support in this particular case for it. 530 00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:19,159 And I know that's a really controversial stance and it's a horrifying stance. There 531 00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:23,360 is certain pathology, and I would say antisocial personality disorders, you the aka 532 00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:29,880 psychopaths who really cannot be cured, and they really are those people that are 533 00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:36,000 born evil in my opinion, So I think those are the chilling oftentimes the 534 00:41:36,039 --> 00:41:39,800 type bundies, the people that just charm, the pants up people. The 535 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:45,199 homes was a category in and of himself. I believe it certainly wasn't charming. 536 00:41:45,159 --> 00:41:51,199 He was one of those individuals but almost defied a diagnosis. Of psychiatrists 537 00:41:51,199 --> 00:41:55,280 that came on board to diagnose them. We're having a difficult time figuring out 538 00:41:55,360 --> 00:42:00,800 what was actually wrong with him, and so I think that doctor Fenton nailed 539 00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:07,639 it. So after embarking on what had you been an absolutely horrifying and typical 540 00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:12,559 book, what is your next project? Are you going to try to top 541 00:42:12,639 --> 00:42:16,840 this? Or it's sort of it? Maybe? Yeah, back to poetry 542 00:42:17,079 --> 00:42:22,280 now it's actually a dark another dark topic. Yeah, I'm actually just in 543 00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:28,400 the very early stages of now, but it's dark and it's probably going down 544 00:42:28,559 --> 00:42:35,000 the foray of more pathology, psychopathic pathology. So it's very interesting, very 545 00:42:35,079 --> 00:42:37,800 dark, and I'm very superstitious. So as soon as I sell it. 546 00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:44,239 I can talk about it, but it's another true crime and I'm very excited 547 00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:47,000 about it. It's an area that I feel like I'm It's definitely in my 548 00:42:47,039 --> 00:42:51,840 willhouse and I'm really interested in writing it. And I also think it will 549 00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:57,599 have a huge impact in another arena, another domestic violence and that kind of 550 00:42:57,679 --> 00:43:00,440 arena that I think is also needs and a lot of discussion on it. 551 00:43:00,599 --> 00:43:04,360 Now. I'm intrigued, and we're going to have you. We're going to 552 00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:07,280 have you come back and talk about it as soon as you can. Yeah, 553 00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:08,960 I would love to. I'd love to. I'm very excited about it. 554 00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:13,559 That is going to do it for this episode of mind Over Murder. 555 00:43:13,639 --> 00:43:17,559 The book is Aurora, the psychiatrist who treated the movie Theater Killer, tells 556 00:43:17,559 --> 00:43:22,840 her story by doctor Lynn Fentten and Carrie Droven. Carrie, thank you again 557 00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:25,119 for joining us today. We really appreciate it. Thank you so much. 558 00:43:25,159 --> 00:43:29,239 It was my pleasure. That's going to do it for this episode of Mind 559 00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:42,559 Over Murder. We'll see you next time. Mind Over Murder is a production 560 00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:47,880 of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and 561 00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:53,159 Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is 562 00:43:53,159 --> 00:43:59,920 by Kevin McLoud. Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. 563 00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:04,039 You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. You can 564 00:44:04,079 --> 00:44:07,679 also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, and finally, 565 00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:13,440 you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas. Five six. Thank 566 00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:15,320 you for listening to mind Over Murder.