1 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:20,320 Welcome to Popcorn Psychology, the podcast where we watch blockbuster movies and psychoanalyze them. 2 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:23,519 My name is Britney Brownfield and I'm a child therapist and I'm joined by 3 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:27,719 Ben Stover, individual therapist, Hannah Espinoza, marriage and family therapists. We 4 00:00:27,719 --> 00:00:31,559 are all licensed clinical professional counselors also known as therapists, who practice out of 5 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:35,840 Chicago. Even though we are licensed mental health professionals, this podcast is purely 6 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:40,200 for entertainment purposes and to fulfill our love of dissecting pop culture in all forms. 7 00:00:40,399 --> 00:00:43,600 Please remember that, even though we are all licensed therapists, we aren't 8 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:47,000 your therapist. If you are struggling with mental health symptoms, please find a 9 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:55,880 local mental health providers. Hi. Welcome everybody. So we are Popcorn Psychology. 10 00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:59,719 I am Brittany. This is Ben Stover. Nice to meet you all 11 00:00:59,759 --> 00:01:03,600 today. We're Janet Snake, Coole and Burt Macklin from Parks and Rec if 12 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:07,120 you are familiar. We also typically have a third Hannah, but she's often 13 00:01:07,159 --> 00:01:12,640 the Pacific Northwest? Right now? Can everyone say hi to Hannah? All 14 00:01:12,719 --> 00:01:17,719 right? So, if unless you don't know Popcorn Psychology, we are licensed 15 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:21,840 therapists who work out of Chicago at private practices things like that. So we're 16 00:01:21,879 --> 00:01:26,760 all therapists who actively see clients. And our podcast is that we pick a 17 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:30,000 movie every episode, whether that's a rom com like While You Were Sleeping or 18 00:01:30,079 --> 00:01:34,159 a superhero movie like Batman Begins, or a fandom like Harry Potter or Hunger 19 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:38,200 Games, and we talk about it through the lens of a therapist. What 20 00:01:38,239 --> 00:01:41,519 are we noticing here in terms of mental health themes? If one of these 21 00:01:41,599 --> 00:01:44,879 characters in our office, how would we treat them as a therapist. Would 22 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:48,319 they be treatable? Would they allow a therapist to help them? I'm looking 23 00:01:48,359 --> 00:01:51,920 at you, Bruce Wayne, because I don't think you would. So it's 24 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:53,840 our kind of way of sneaking a little mental health or a lot of mental 25 00:01:53,840 --> 00:02:00,640 health education through the fun, you know, medium of movies, TV shows, 26 00:02:00,959 --> 00:02:05,519 and fandom. So today we were kind of going to touch upon a 27 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:09,960 few places where we have seen good mental health and good therapists and a few 28 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:16,560 places where we haven't seen the best therapy portrayed within TV and movies. And 29 00:02:16,599 --> 00:02:22,199 as always, we welcome any audience interactions. If anybody has any questions thoughts, 30 00:02:22,199 --> 00:02:23,639 feel free to raise your hand, go to the mic at any time 31 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:30,360 during our talk, and we are happy to bring that bring your feedback in. 32 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:32,240 So I guess where we can start is, well, let me ask 33 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:37,759 you this. Has anyone ever seen what they consider to be a good therapist 34 00:02:38,759 --> 00:02:45,159 in a movie or a TV show? There's a lot of cringe faces noticed 35 00:02:45,199 --> 00:02:47,159 that. Not one hand shot up and went, yes, I saw one. 36 00:02:49,759 --> 00:02:52,360 How many people did what I just wouldn't like? Wait, okay, 37 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:53,240 who had a good one? Oh? Wait, no, they slept with 38 00:02:53,240 --> 00:03:00,520 their clients? Again, we got a hand. Can you go go up 39 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:02,960 to the Mike Thos. We can hear you love to hear what your input 40 00:03:04,039 --> 00:03:12,199 is. What I can think of is doctor Sydney for mash oh mash Ah 41 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:15,199 was that his name? I think Sydney was that his last name? I'm 42 00:03:15,199 --> 00:03:21,960 trying to remember. I'm trying to remember. But that was but interesting that 43 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:24,520 you had to go approval from Ghostly Podcast back there. But interesting you have 44 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:29,759 to go all the way back to the seventies to find that reference though unfortunately 45 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:34,759 so. Part of why we wanted to do this show, besides teach of 46 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:39,280 mental health, is to kind of dispel a lot of the how we've seen 47 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:44,120 the therapist portrayed in a lot of movies and TV shows in a way that 48 00:03:44,439 --> 00:03:49,360 is not super It wouldn't make me feel confident as a person going to see 49 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:53,360 a therapist, right, Right, Seeing a therapist should be a safe situation 50 00:03:53,479 --> 00:03:58,120 where you're able to have an open space to process whatever is going on in 51 00:03:58,159 --> 00:04:01,240 a nod judgmental way with some one who's going to approach you with kindness and 52 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:09,960 curiosity and empathy and challenge you to explore new behaviors and thought patterns about things 53 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:14,759 that are going on in your life. It should never ever be about any 54 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:20,360 kind of relationship. Yeah, romantic relationship ever, And seeing that that becomes 55 00:04:20,399 --> 00:04:27,439 a narrative trope that writers love to us makes all of us therapecistic. It's 56 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:31,319 like the first thing they teach you in grad school Rule number one, we 57 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:38,160 do not have romantic relationships with our clients. Rule number two see rual number 58 00:04:38,199 --> 00:04:45,040 one. So I'm curious how many here have watched Ted Lasso. So hands 59 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:49,600 now ted Lasso. We actually did a panel two days ago with doctor Scott 60 00:04:49,639 --> 00:04:55,600 Jordan about Ted Lasso. Ted Lasso portrays mental health in a beautiful way most 61 00:04:55,639 --> 00:04:59,680 ways. Right, It's a good portrayal of how you can be two things 62 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:02,879 a she can be both very positive but also very anxious and struggling. It 63 00:05:02,959 --> 00:05:08,279 also is a portrayal of a decent therapist. Ted's therapist, doctor Sharon. 64 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:12,519 Doctor Sharon, Yeah, she's a therapist too, is very available, but 65 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:15,240 has good boundaries. Isn't trying to become friends with her clients, even though 66 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:19,759 that is a tricky situation where you're on staff for a team where you're kind 67 00:05:19,759 --> 00:05:25,240 of in the mix even though you are their therapist. And she actually does 68 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:29,439 a good job of maintaining an appropriate boundary, does not even just for herself, 69 00:05:29,439 --> 00:05:30,920 but also the teammates as they're coming in and out of her office. 70 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:36,199 Now, that show also has a common trope of a really bad therapist trope, 71 00:05:36,199 --> 00:05:43,120 which is that Ted's couples therapist starts dating his wife after they divorce, 72 00:05:43,319 --> 00:05:47,839 which, let's consult the ethics board. You all, is this okay? 73 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:53,399 Wait? Is anybody nodding? Look around? Did anybody say it was okay? 74 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:55,800 Did you see anybody say it was okay? I did not see anybody. 75 00:05:55,879 --> 00:05:58,720 I did not see anybody say. So let's say yay, doctor Sharon, 76 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:03,000 because yeah, doctor Jacob, because I would say what felt really shocking 77 00:06:03,319 --> 00:06:06,600 watching Ted lasts, so is that up to that point it did such a 78 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:13,720 phenomenal job portraying therapy, portraying mental health, portraying panic attacks, like so 79 00:06:13,759 --> 00:06:16,519 many tropes that you saw on that trow Mont helf were so good that the 80 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:20,720 fact that they had that happen on that show and no one seems to have 81 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:26,079 a problem with it. The only issue is just almost like this doctor just 82 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:30,399 had the vibe of Oh, Ted's ex wife's new boyfriend, and that was 83 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:34,800 the antagonism with it, not what the hell? Oh, I almost swore 84 00:06:34,879 --> 00:06:40,959 harder, what the hell is her couple's therapist doing dating your wife? Because 85 00:06:40,959 --> 00:06:44,480 I'll tell you this as a therapist myself. Once you're my client, it's 86 00:06:44,519 --> 00:06:48,399 like you're my cousin, you know what I mean, Like there's no part 87 00:06:48,439 --> 00:06:51,240 of me that's like, oh, I think you know actually, especially since 88 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:56,120 I'm helping with the relationship issues, I really think you're very datable to me. 89 00:06:56,639 --> 00:06:59,519 So the fact that that gets as doesn't get addressed on that show in 90 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:04,959 anyway other than he's a foil for Ted romantically was very It seemed very out 91 00:07:04,959 --> 00:07:10,120 of character for the writing of that show. It did, but not for 92 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:14,680 the show runner, I think, as he also did Scrubs and cougar Town 93 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:20,680 and Shrinking, Shrinking, where some questionable boundaries start to become a narrative device 94 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:27,439 yet again, and I think as a professional therapist, it is something that 95 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:30,000 I feel like goes against the mission of what we're trying to do with our 96 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:33,639 show, which is to try to create an accessible way that people can talk 97 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:40,240 about mental health through the lens of characters and try to diffuse some stigma that 98 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:45,160 everybody is going to encounter mental health at some point in their life. Like 99 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:49,720 I've been to rock concerts seeing Disturbed in Godsmack and they did something similar where 100 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:55,040 we're gonna right now, if you have known anybody who's dealt with mental health 101 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:59,040 in your life, RaSE your hand, have you dealt with it yourself, 102 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:09,600 take a look around, feel some peace in that is normal. Accessing therapy 103 00:08:09,639 --> 00:08:13,480 should be normal, and that shouldn't be a place of fearing that someone's evaluating 104 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:16,680 you for your dating and whether your Bible dating partner. And I think seeing 105 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:22,040 it in ted Lasso, where they did such a beautiful job addressing mental health 106 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:26,720 concerns so clearly, so cleanly and compassionately to then be like, oh, 107 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:31,879 and by the way, the therapist is dating his wife not it's something that 108 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:37,000 makes me scream internally and sometimes externally. I don't about you. Yeah, 109 00:08:37,519 --> 00:08:41,120 And I would say what's interesting about doing this podcast as we watched a variety 110 00:08:41,159 --> 00:08:43,080 of things, like I said, and so then watching something again through the 111 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:48,480 eyes of a therapist can be very telling about the legitimacy of the writing and 112 00:08:48,519 --> 00:08:52,399 the storytelling. And there are some places where you can be very pleasantly surprised, 113 00:08:52,759 --> 00:08:56,840 like Wanda Vision was a place where we were pleasantly surprised about how mental 114 00:08:56,879 --> 00:09:03,200 health was portrayed. How many you guys saw that. Yeah, we shall 115 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:09,480 not speak of her development Wanda and multi verse of madness also as mental health 116 00:09:09,519 --> 00:09:13,240 people. That was very disappointing as someone who had so much growth in Wanda 117 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:18,320 Vision and really took accountability in a lot of ways for how her unprocessed grief 118 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:24,440 harmed others in a really real way. For them to her totally switch on 119 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:31,200 a dime and continue that unhealthy cycle with others with a child to America was 120 00:09:31,279 --> 00:09:35,519 really difficult to see. And I know Sam Ramy's here and I'm going to 121 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:39,480 try my best not to fight him about it. I mean, if he 122 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:43,039 wants to, you know, that would be I think that would be okay. 123 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:46,519 But I think for me, I'm a trauma therapist. Trauma is my 124 00:09:46,639 --> 00:09:50,200 specialty. I work with it every day, all day long. I worked 125 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:54,000 with first responders primarily, and watching that show do such a beautiful job, 126 00:09:54,279 --> 00:10:01,720 even though the way Agatha forced her into it was completely unethical and harmful, 127 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:07,879 seeing a show depict what it's like to live with trauma that it's these little 128 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:11,840 vignettes, these stories from your life that get stuck and start defining how you 129 00:10:11,879 --> 00:10:16,320 see yourself and how you see the world and create a protective shell that you 130 00:10:16,399 --> 00:10:22,000 then harden as you go through more in life. Watching that be shown so 131 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:28,600 beautifully was really meaningful to me. Is a trauma thetis because something I can 132 00:10:28,639 --> 00:10:31,240 point to people and go like, look, this is what we're gonna do. 133 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:35,600 We're gonna but not force, but we're gonna walk backwards in time to 134 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:41,279 look for these moments that have defined why you need to have this hardened exterior, 135 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:43,480 why you have to keep people out, why you formed extra parts of 136 00:10:43,519 --> 00:10:50,600 yourself to keep you defended to see them then torpedo all of that in multiverse 137 00:10:50,639 --> 00:10:58,200 of madness had me doing yet again? Why Yeah, because I think with 138 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:03,120 the new Marvel Disney Plus show is it is giving us ample stuff to watch 139 00:11:03,399 --> 00:11:07,879 that is finally starting to touch upon mental health, like Moon Nights. Another 140 00:11:07,879 --> 00:11:11,759 one where they get right up to it with like the Betrayal of d Id, 141 00:11:11,399 --> 00:11:16,480 but then skirt a little bit for you know, the fantasticness of the 142 00:11:16,519 --> 00:11:22,320 story. That's another thing where they almost get it right until they don't. 143 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:26,639 I would say a place though, where I was pleasantly surprised about mental health 144 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:28,960 was Falcon in the Winter Shoulder. I don't know how many of you guys 145 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:33,720 watch that, but watching the story of Bucky Barnes and watching someone somewhat of 146 00:11:33,759 --> 00:11:39,240 an avenger finally friggin get therapy was very nice to see and a therapist who 147 00:11:39,279 --> 00:11:45,320 actually was a very good match for the client in front of her. I 148 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:48,159 thought that was great, Particularly doing what I do. You have to meet 149 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:52,240 clients where they are, you have to learn to speak their language, and 150 00:11:52,320 --> 00:12:00,120 having the therapist we saw be competent in the culture of military and warriors and 151 00:12:00,159 --> 00:12:05,240 be able to speak the language and have some tolerance for the harshness and the 152 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:11,039 crassness and the skepticism of the clients while being able to sit in it and 153 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:16,919 operate from it and use it to break the shell I thought was beautifully done. 154 00:12:16,279 --> 00:12:20,000 Yeah, she does a good job of using what we call them the 155 00:12:20,039 --> 00:12:24,000 field irreverence, which is when you have a hard client who's not really buying 156 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:26,519 what you're selling, sometimes you want to do what Senems therapists called spit in 157 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:31,759 their soup, which is lean into the way that they're being difficult, which 158 00:12:31,799 --> 00:12:33,679 is like, you're right, okay, fine, who cares? You know 159 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:35,559 what if you want to do that, it's not really what I told you 160 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:39,120 to do, but fine. And I know it can seem off putting when 161 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:43,000 you watch it on screen, but that is a therapeutic tactic the Centimes therapists 162 00:12:43,039 --> 00:12:50,279 employ. It's not quite reverse psychology, but to get people to kind of 163 00:12:50,279 --> 00:12:52,360 own up to what they're doing and how it's not working and what are we 164 00:12:52,399 --> 00:12:54,879 doing here together? Why are you coming to my office? I know for 165 00:12:54,960 --> 00:13:01,639 him it's kind of different because it was sanctioned therapy, but you know, 166 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:05,879 being able to work to meet the client that you have in front of you, 167 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:09,919 not just only be one version of yourself as a therapist is important to 168 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:13,360 keep in mind it is important, and it's important to be flexible and work 169 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:20,440 with clients to meet them and be able to address what they need how they 170 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:26,000 need it. So many times we see in shows that therapists are like, 171 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:28,519 oh, well, I do this style, I am this kind of therapist, 172 00:13:28,519 --> 00:13:33,279 we do this kind of work here, and that's not what real therapists 173 00:13:33,279 --> 00:13:37,440 do. It's our job to find a way to connect to the client as 174 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:39,919 they are and help them in the way that they need, not be the 175 00:13:41,039 --> 00:13:43,320 keeper of all the mental health secrets that we're then going to bestow onto you. 176 00:13:45,399 --> 00:13:48,200 I would say, another kind of unlikely place where a reverence is used 177 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:54,039 by a therapist and done well is Rick and Morty. Actually with miss Sarandon, 178 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:56,559 who's here this weekend, is she does the voice of a family therapist 179 00:13:56,559 --> 00:14:01,240 that works with Rick's family. It's the famous Pickle Rick episode, if anyone's 180 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:03,120 familiar with that. And he does the same thing where he's one of those 181 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:07,240 clients who comes in and he's like, therapy is stupid. I'm smarter than 182 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:09,200 therapy. I don't need this, I don't need that. Yah yah yah. 183 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:13,720 Therapy is boring. And she actually delivers a speech that I kind of 184 00:14:13,759 --> 00:14:18,000 paraphrase and stole with my clients, which is, yeah, sometimes the maintenance 185 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:24,000 of being well is maintenance, and it's boring and it's work, and it's 186 00:14:24,039 --> 00:14:28,679 monotonous. It's mundane. That doesn't and the way she says in her speech 187 00:14:28,759 --> 00:14:31,480 is like, also, brushing your teeth every day is mundane. Washing your 188 00:14:31,519 --> 00:14:35,960 ass every day is mundane. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't do it or 189 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:37,600 that it's not healthy for you to do it. And you have to get 190 00:14:37,639 --> 00:14:41,799 over this idea that things have to be exciting in a way for them to 191 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:46,200 be worthwhile, which is something that comes up a lot within therapy. Is 192 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:52,600 this idea that life should be exciting in a way that is chaotic and confusing, 193 00:14:52,639 --> 00:15:00,840 passion and those kind of things for a positive quality of life. Thinking 194 00:15:00,879 --> 00:15:07,039 that there's some big action you can take to solve everything, or that one 195 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:15,080 session and fixed are realities, I think is a really challenging aspect of working 196 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:20,600 with movie characters in particular, where they come into session once and the therapist 197 00:15:20,679 --> 00:15:28,480 joke goes, ah, beard stroke, beard stroke, it's this and they're 198 00:15:28,519 --> 00:15:33,039 better and yeah, but that's not that's not real, and it does take 199 00:15:33,279 --> 00:15:37,200 time and effort, and it takes doing the little things, following through the 200 00:15:37,639 --> 00:15:43,120 mundane steps of working towards wellness, and sometimes it's slow. Yeah, And 201 00:15:43,159 --> 00:15:48,240 I think another movie that portrays that well is The Sixth Sense. How well 202 00:15:48,559 --> 00:15:52,279 has seen The Sixth Sense? Maybe not a long time. That's a lot 203 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:56,519 of hands. That's a long hand on of hands. That is actually so 204 00:15:56,559 --> 00:16:00,759 I'm a child therapist, And so that is one of the best portrayals of 205 00:16:00,759 --> 00:16:03,480 a child therapist I've ever seen on screen. And you know, I don't 206 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:07,000 want to say the spoiler, just in case no one's seen it twenty years 207 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:11,600 after the fact, Britney, it's I think we're good. But I think 208 00:16:11,879 --> 00:16:14,519 that is a good example of sort of like the Man, like, what 209 00:16:14,559 --> 00:16:18,480 real therapy can look like is you just kind of hang out with a client, 210 00:16:18,559 --> 00:16:21,480 especially kid client. You kind of just are with them. You meet 211 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:25,519 them where they're at, You do magic tricks, you just chit chat, 212 00:16:25,559 --> 00:16:30,080 you kind of shoot the s together, and you just try to be what 213 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:33,679 they need when they need it, until finally they trust you enough to tell 214 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:37,720 you their big secret. So that movie actually is an excellent portrayal of kind 215 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:41,080 of the steps of therapy as well, especially when you work with kids that 216 00:16:41,159 --> 00:16:44,399 you don't have to. We talk about this a lot on the podcast. 217 00:16:44,399 --> 00:16:48,360 There's this idea and I get this when I work with kids in there. 218 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:52,480 This is anxiety from their parents of like you need to talk about the issue 219 00:16:52,559 --> 00:16:55,480 right now, like when they come into your office. By the first second 220 00:16:55,519 --> 00:16:57,759 session, you need to be talking about whatever the thing is. And what 221 00:16:57,879 --> 00:17:03,680 I have to impress upon parents is that's not me pushing to get to the 222 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:08,680 objective is not really going to do anybody any favors. There's especially with kids 223 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:11,480 because I don't know about you guys, if you ever went to therapy as 224 00:17:11,559 --> 00:17:17,400 kids or no kids in therapy, they're very rarely choosing to go to therapy. 225 00:17:18,039 --> 00:17:21,559 It's usually like my mom or dad's making me, my school's making me. 226 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:23,440 Like there's not a lot of kids who are self actualized enough that they're 227 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:26,640 walking up to their parents and like, I would really love to unpack some 228 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:30,119 of my trauma with a therapist. Can you find one for me? And 229 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:36,119 so what that movie does really well is it demonstrates that you do have to 230 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:38,480 take your time and it's okay. And I warned parents like the first several 231 00:17:38,519 --> 00:17:42,000 sessions, maybe the first month or two of sessions might be me and your 232 00:17:42,039 --> 00:17:47,640 kid playing games, talking about Marvel, talking about TV shows, talking about 233 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:52,319 their friends, talking about benign school stuff, until your kid realizes that I 234 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:55,839 can be someone that they can trust to tell their secret, until I'm no 235 00:17:55,960 --> 00:18:00,799 longer a stranger. And in that movie, you see him just kind of 236 00:18:00,799 --> 00:18:03,440 goofing off a little bit, being calm, being quiet, being gentle with 237 00:18:03,519 --> 00:18:07,160 him until the kid feels comfortable to tell him the big thing. And once 238 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:11,039 the kid tells you the big thing, then your work together can really kick 239 00:18:11,079 --> 00:18:14,440 it up a notch, and they can really it's almost like going up the 240 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:19,480 roller coaster and now you're speeding along. I agree it's really important to even 241 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:22,400 with children that come into therapy, to make them feel like the space is 242 00:18:22,519 --> 00:18:26,160 theirs, and that the therapist is their therapist, not mom's agent or dad's 243 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:30,880 agents. It needs to be somebody their own space where they can process through 244 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:37,079 the problems as they see them the way they see it. How many of 245 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:38,839 us can look back on our life and things that happen as kids and go, 246 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:44,000 oh, that's what was going on there, and go, like your 247 00:18:44,039 --> 00:18:48,799 adult brain tries to play it back and go back into the scene as a 248 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:52,559 kid and fix it from your adult perspective. But the kid never had that. 249 00:18:52,839 --> 00:18:56,519 So we have to as a therapist meet a child from the way they 250 00:18:56,559 --> 00:18:59,039 see the world, not the way the adults do. Are the way we 251 00:18:59,079 --> 00:19:00,759 do as the therapist, you have to meet and work with kids there and 252 00:19:00,799 --> 00:19:06,839 I think Bruce Willis did a phenomenal job of executing that and see of sitting 253 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:11,680 with Haley. Joe Osmond's character and letting him have his space is just about 254 00:19:11,759 --> 00:19:15,680 him. Yeah, and not every thing we talk about on Popcornithology it has 255 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:18,279 a therapist in it. A lot of what we talked about actually is just 256 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:22,720 what are we noticing thematically that shows us something about mental health. Like one 257 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:26,799 of our last episodes was The Mummy and we talked about does ev have ADHD? 258 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:32,039 And what do we see in Nazi that shows that to us? And 259 00:19:32,079 --> 00:19:33,680 I would say one thing that I know you've been talking about Ben, because 260 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:40,240 Ben's the one on the podcast that has his own child is Bluey. How 261 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:45,440 many of you guys watch Bluey? Okay? Who loves Bluey? Yes? 262 00:19:45,759 --> 00:19:53,359 Did anybody see the episode Space who cried? Yeah? Every time? I 263 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:59,000 think Bluey is one of the finest examples of ways that we can use even 264 00:20:00,079 --> 00:20:03,559 a seven minute cartoon to make things successful. In the episode Space, we 265 00:20:03,599 --> 00:20:10,759 see three of the Little Boy Dog characters starting to play out this scene where 266 00:20:10,799 --> 00:20:15,200 they're out exploring space, which you know, like our hungry each other by 267 00:20:15,319 --> 00:20:18,559 friends, and many of us Star Wars fans have gone a space story. 268 00:20:19,559 --> 00:20:25,960 I'm here for that right or at a fan convention, we're half the people 269 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:30,359 here wear in Star Wars Star Treker something else space related. So seeing kids 270 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:33,920 just naturally go to that as great. But watching that episode, you get 271 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:41,079 to see one of the kids start playing out his trauma of being left by 272 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:45,119 his mom and getting scared and remembering that. For kids, it's just a 273 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:51,079 flash of a moment that can define how we feel, because feelings are the 274 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:55,039 only way we get to make sense of our experience. Having a feeling about 275 00:20:55,039 --> 00:21:00,319 something that happened is the only way we differentiate what was a relevant memory and 276 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:04,240 what goes in a pool. Like think about your drives to work. When 277 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:08,559 you remember a drive to work, it's one of any of the thousand times 278 00:21:08,559 --> 00:21:11,880 you did it right. Okay, I drive past that, I drive past 279 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,240 that. But if I ask you about the day your child was born, 280 00:21:15,559 --> 00:21:18,680 or the day you got hired at your next job, or the day you 281 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:25,000 graduated you remember really specific memories, or the day someone broke up with you. 282 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:27,799 You remember that day, you remember the feeling flashpoint. Watching this is 283 00:21:27,839 --> 00:21:33,519 a that episode of Blue is a fantastic reminder that that happens for kids too, 284 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:38,079 but in different ways, because what we see happen for Mackenzie is he 285 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:42,640 keeps trying to break away from the other boys and wants to play like they 286 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:48,240 left him, And it's not until he gets into a slide tunnel that the 287 00:21:48,319 --> 00:21:55,359 memory becomes clear to him that as a much smaller kid, he got lost 288 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:59,240 and went down the wrong slide and he couldn't find his mom. And the 289 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:03,000 teacher does this beautiful thing, or she comes up and says like, Okay, 290 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:07,160 you've seen what's here. Now, you don't have to keep coming back 291 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:11,599 here anymore. And for me as a trauma therapist, that's what I try 292 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:15,799 to guide clients to every day is let's get back. Let's re explore this 293 00:22:15,839 --> 00:22:18,799 moment where you got hurt, but from a place where you have resources and 294 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:23,240 aren't scared, aren't lost, aren't afraid in your body's not activated and seeing 295 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:29,319 that in a seven minute kids cartoon, beautiful and over and over we see 296 00:22:29,319 --> 00:22:33,319 these things popping up. Now, Yeah, I would say, kind of 297 00:22:33,319 --> 00:22:37,519 going back to how our podcast started, because I know this usually sparks some 298 00:22:37,599 --> 00:22:41,599 conversation. Is the very first episode of our podcast is about the Last Jedi. 299 00:22:42,519 --> 00:22:45,559 So let's talk about trauma. Now they're already talking about it. Who 300 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:56,319 here likes the Last Jedi? Who here hate the Last Jedi? It's usually 301 00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:00,000 this but fifty fifty right, Yeah, it's getting us and last over time. 302 00:23:00,319 --> 00:23:04,400 Yeah, and the last shot actually is what inspired our podcast as we 303 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,519 were working all together as therapists and we loved the Last Jedi, and we 304 00:23:07,559 --> 00:23:11,640 couldn't really wrap our head around why people not only didn't like it, but 305 00:23:11,799 --> 00:23:17,599 really couldn't stand the portrayal of Luke Skywalker. And that is what inspired us 306 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:22,319 to start our podcast itself to really help people understand why we as therapists not 307 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:27,319 only had no problem with that portrayal of Skywalker, we actually loved that portrayal 308 00:23:27,319 --> 00:23:30,519 of Luke Skywalker and that for us, it was so clear that he was 309 00:23:30,599 --> 00:23:37,000 someone who was not dealing with his trauma, who had been traumatized and was 310 00:23:37,079 --> 00:23:42,559 engaging in one of the most classic trauma responses there is, which is fly 311 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,880 and avoid yep, and then and then, if you're going to bring it 312 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:52,079 up to me, you better be ready for this attitude that's going to fly 313 00:23:52,279 --> 00:23:56,359 at your face to keep you at arm's length. Every step to his portrayal 314 00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:02,480 and last Jedi made sense to us as therapists and as therapists who've dealt with 315 00:24:02,519 --> 00:24:06,720 many people who have gone through trauma, and we can understand why. And 316 00:24:06,759 --> 00:24:10,680 Ben can speak to this more as he is a Luke Skywalker lover. I'm 317 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:17,319 a Luke Skywalker hater. Is that, you know, it is hard to 318 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:21,920 see someone that we want to think of as our hero behaving in a way 319 00:24:22,079 --> 00:24:26,640 that doesn't align with that image. It is hard so many things about what 320 00:24:26,759 --> 00:24:32,400 draws to fandoms, what draws to these fantastical stories is finding hope, and 321 00:24:32,599 --> 00:24:38,559 Luke has been a representation of that throughout his existence. But when you really 322 00:24:38,599 --> 00:24:45,720 explore the hero's journey, any story going far back as the Odyssey and further 323 00:24:47,559 --> 00:24:51,960 the cost of the journey on the hero to provide us that hope almost always 324 00:24:51,960 --> 00:25:00,319 consumes them, and watching what happened to Luke makes sense from real a six 325 00:25:00,319 --> 00:25:06,680 standpoint, Luke has been through such tremendous amounts of trauma, there is no 326 00:25:06,799 --> 00:25:11,200 way that watching his nephew take over the mantle of his father, which he 327 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:17,240 gave every last ounce of his soul to fight against, follow the same path 328 00:25:17,279 --> 00:25:21,640 and the same psycho repeat again that it's not very likely Luke would find that 329 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:25,480 light within him again. And it's watching him retreat away was really hard for 330 00:25:25,519 --> 00:25:27,759 people. How many people had a problem with Last Jetti because of that, 331 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:33,319 like watching Luke not be the light anymore? Yeah, part of it, 332 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:40,119 Yeah it would. I mean it had problems, right, they had problems, 333 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:45,359 especial especially especially all the anything but Luke and Ray. But but what 334 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,440 I loved about that, and I think more movies. I think the first 335 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:52,759 time I felt this way when this is back when I was an intern as 336 00:25:52,759 --> 00:25:56,440 a therapist, is the Hunger Games, right. I think it also was 337 00:25:56,480 --> 00:26:00,079 a story that behaved very similar, which is a lot of stories before and 338 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:04,119 we're, oh, our hero goes through something wildly traumatic, and then once 339 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:08,079 the trauma is over, they're like back to business, back to being charismatic, 340 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:11,680 back to being a leader, as if out of side, out of 341 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,799 mind. And I think what the Hunger Games and so well with Catness. 342 00:26:15,079 --> 00:26:18,079 And then I think what Last Jed I did with Luke is that though there 343 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:25,039 are ramifications, real life ramifications to going through horrific struggles, and that we're 344 00:26:25,039 --> 00:26:30,480 not really doing I think human beings a disservice by not seeing those stories, 345 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:34,039 but not seeing that trajectory seen on screen. You know that these stories, 346 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:41,640 prior to this level of emotional intelligence, we're perpetuating this idea that you should 347 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,599 be fine, and if you're not fine, what's wrong with you? You 348 00:26:44,599 --> 00:26:47,799 know? It kind of continues that, you know, part of our Miston 349 00:26:47,839 --> 00:26:51,240 statement the show is decreasing the stigma, right, stopping the stigma around mental 350 00:26:51,279 --> 00:26:53,640 health. And a big part of that stigma, at least in our culture, 351 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:59,039 especially in midwesterner culture, is you're fine and if you need therapy, 352 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:03,279 you must be genuinely crazy or something along those lines, right, like something's 353 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:07,640 wrong with you? And what I like about these newer way of things like 354 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:12,640 WandaVision, like Falk and The Winter Soldier, like what we're talking about Hunger 355 00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:17,960 Games Last Jedi is this idea that you can both love a hero, see 356 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:21,440 yourself maybe even in that hero, and they can have hard times where they 357 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:23,720 don't really act the way that they should, where they might be really unlikable, 358 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:29,119 really hard to deal with, not like themselves at all, possibly totally 359 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:33,400 go backwards in their progress, and they can still be have a I don't 360 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,680 know if I want to say redemption art because I don't love the vibe of 361 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:41,240 that, But they can still grow and they can become a more integrated version 362 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:42,359 of themselves too, because I think with a lot of these stories, like 363 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:47,880 even I'll keep going back to Hunger Games, is she doesn't become someone that's 364 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:48,960 like, oh, I love being a leader, like a lot of the 365 00:27:49,079 --> 00:27:53,519 Hunger Games ripoffs. After that, we're very like I am now the figurehead 366 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,400 of this community and I'm the leader. And she was like, no, 367 00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:00,640 I want to go back to my hometown and I want to be where it's 368 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,559 quiet. I want to take a nap for the next month and a half, 369 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:07,559 and I don't want to talk to anybody about anything. And I was 370 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,880 like, that is actually more of a realistic version I think of someone who's 371 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:17,359 gone through these hard struggles, you know. And I also wonder with Skywalker 372 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:21,400 of part of his thing is I want a break. I need to go 373 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:26,359 somewhere where nobody knows me, there's no pressure to be Luke Skywalker that presence, 374 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:30,240 and I can finally have space to deal or not deal, emphasis on 375 00:28:30,319 --> 00:28:33,440 not deal with what I've gone through in the mistakes that I've made, because 376 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:37,000 also with Luke Skywalker, that big mistake is, oh my god, I 377 00:28:37,039 --> 00:28:41,200 almost killed my nephew, right. And I think too, when you become 378 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:48,079 sort of like a monolithic figure within a community like Luke is, your identity 379 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:52,119 becomes really specific. And so when I work with people, you might have 380 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:56,359 heard this through Berne Brown, their idea of being shame based versus whole hearted, 381 00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:00,640 which is when when your identity is wrapped up in a specific version of 382 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:06,200 yourself and you do something that pushes on that identity, you can't really deal. 383 00:29:06,799 --> 00:29:08,440 It really makes you feel a lot of shame and you shut down, 384 00:29:08,599 --> 00:29:12,880 or your self esteem tanks or whatever. And so I think for him, 385 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:18,519 he was lacking that dimension that allowed him to make mistakes, maybe make huge 386 00:29:18,519 --> 00:29:22,799 mistakes, and still can be a leader within his community, still be a 387 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:27,799 quote unquote good person or a hero, definitely, And I like that. 388 00:29:27,799 --> 00:29:36,759 We're starting to go through this narrative period lately where we're seeing the effects of 389 00:29:36,799 --> 00:29:41,519 the heroic act on the hero right, watching all of the recovery that needs 390 00:29:41,559 --> 00:29:45,720 to be done. It doesn't matter how glorious the act is in the stories 391 00:29:45,839 --> 00:29:49,200 other people tell, getting the chance to see our heroes have to go through 392 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:53,160 the work it takes to recover from what they had to go through in order 393 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:57,519 to do the heroic act. Oftentimes you must become a monster yourself or find 394 00:29:57,559 --> 00:30:03,200 a monstrous part to deal with a great evil. Luke's bad against Darth Vader 395 00:30:03,359 --> 00:30:10,079 in the Return of the Jedi, we watched Luke confront his darkness and come 396 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:15,519 this close. It's not until that flap on his black suit opens, revealing 397 00:30:15,519 --> 00:30:19,920 that white inner side to it, that we see it, even visually represented 398 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:22,440 for us, that Luke has rejected the darkness in his heart and throws his 399 00:30:22,519 --> 00:30:27,240 light saber and says, I won't fight you. It's not until that point 400 00:30:27,799 --> 00:30:32,880 that Luke recognizes this for himself, that the monster it would take for me 401 00:30:33,039 --> 00:30:37,519 to defeat this I can't become. I can't pay that price. And watching 402 00:30:38,279 --> 00:30:45,119 hero stories over and over now confront those things because we as the audience know 403 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,799 our story. When we've done great things, we know what it took out 404 00:30:48,839 --> 00:30:55,359 of us to do. And I think well as going back to TLJ, 405 00:30:55,519 --> 00:30:59,759 the problems that it had, the issues in the bad storytelling that existed in 406 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:04,279 some parts of it that didn't exist with Luke. Was watching that play out 407 00:31:04,279 --> 00:31:07,720 in front of us for the first time with one of our mythic heroes of 408 00:31:07,759 --> 00:31:14,599 society. Look at the cost on him. Luke had to confront his father, 409 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,039 he had to fire a torpedo that blew up a death start with two 410 00:31:18,079 --> 00:31:22,640 million people on board. That's a lot of ethical issues that can cause a 411 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:26,680 moral injury. It's not going to be simple to recover from that. Yeah, 412 00:31:27,079 --> 00:31:33,400 and watching that happen in front of us is something I thought we thought 413 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:37,039 was important to convey his therapists to the world, Like, hold on, 414 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,319 let's not defend the parts of the movie that are bad, but let's look 415 00:31:40,319 --> 00:31:44,920 at the real psychology we see. That I think is important. Yeah, 416 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,319 I think. And also another recent fandom we can swerve away from Star Wars 417 00:31:48,359 --> 00:31:52,240 that we really liked and we actually talked about I think last year here at 418 00:31:53,079 --> 00:31:59,079 fan Expo is Stranger Things. Stranger Things season four. I don't know how 419 00:31:59,079 --> 00:32:02,799 many of you guys have caught at is one of the best portrayals of not 420 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:07,039 just going through a trauma, like we've talked about time and time again, 421 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:12,920 but also depression. You know, the seeing Max on screen in that season 422 00:32:13,319 --> 00:32:15,519 was really hard to watch. You know, if you've ever gone through depression 423 00:32:15,559 --> 00:32:20,160 yourself, I have, you know, you could really see the way she's 424 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:23,160 shut down, the way she's so irritable, the way that she won't almost 425 00:32:23,279 --> 00:32:30,839 let herself feel better is such a It was such a realistic portrayal of what 426 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:35,119 depression can really look like and how it's not always I mean, she definitely 427 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:37,160 looks sad as hell, so that was that going on, but also being 428 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:42,839 angry not allowing other people to help you feel good. You know, so 429 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:46,559 much of the struggle with depression and where it's such a great con artist is 430 00:32:46,599 --> 00:32:51,200 it feeds itself. You don't deserve to feel better, so you don't get 431 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:53,240 to do the things that make you feel good, which will reaffirm how you're 432 00:32:53,279 --> 00:32:58,240 feeling, which then'll reaffirm that messaging, and then we're gonna ride this cycle 433 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:04,119 to hell to gather the two of us. Shame is a powerful emotion. 434 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:09,359 It's operates on the same biological principles is discussed. So I'm gonna trigger this 435 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:14,200 for you guys for a second, so you can see. I want you 436 00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:21,440 to think about having leftovers at home in the fridge, but they've been there 437 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:22,440 for a couple of days. Maybe you went away for the weekend, but 438 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:28,160 you had something you were really looking forward to having that second part of and 439 00:33:28,279 --> 00:33:32,079 you come home and you open that to go bag and that container, and 440 00:33:32,119 --> 00:33:40,920 the smell hits and lets you know it's turned. What happens to your hunger 441 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:45,599 plummets right, You feel your mouth watering, You're gonna get that excite you 442 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:52,920 get and then you yeah, your hunger's gone, just like that. Shame 443 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:59,160 does the same thing to other emotions. Shame is a biological deactivator of arousal 444 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,200 states and really important when looking at somebody like Max. You need to feel 445 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:07,480 sad, you need to feel angry, You need to work through the stages 446 00:34:07,519 --> 00:34:12,039 of grief in order to move through something that's happened. And if you don't 447 00:34:12,079 --> 00:34:16,280 feel like you deserve to do something because it's your fault that something bad happened, 448 00:34:16,519 --> 00:34:21,159 that you failed in some way, the negative thoughts of you don't deserve 449 00:34:21,199 --> 00:34:23,760 to feel better because this is your fault real or not, provable or not, 450 00:34:24,079 --> 00:34:29,760 doesn't matter if it feels real to you. Your shame response shuts down 451 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:35,079 your ability to feel other emotions, and you go through this loop of almost 452 00:34:35,159 --> 00:34:37,480 activation, almost crying, almost getting angry about it, and then going no, 453 00:34:37,519 --> 00:34:42,039 I don't deserve that boom. And we see Max go through that in 454 00:34:42,159 --> 00:34:46,519 Stranger Things better than I think I've seen it almost anywhere. But helping people 455 00:34:46,599 --> 00:34:52,280 understand that there are things within us that exist to shut down shame is the 456 00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:54,159 same thing that shuts down that feeling of I would really like to punch that 457 00:34:54,159 --> 00:34:58,480 guy that just cut in front of me in line at the grocery store in 458 00:34:58,519 --> 00:35:02,880 the face. Right now, you notice my face does the same thing of 459 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:10,159 like I'm not eating that That effect stops you in your tracks, and it's 460 00:35:10,159 --> 00:35:15,800 really hard to recognize that when we start feeling something we feel like we can't 461 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:20,599 deserved or we don't deserve to feel better from, it's going to shut us 462 00:35:20,599 --> 00:35:23,360 down in the same way. M Sweet have about ten minutes left, So 463 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:28,639 I'm curious anyone here have any questions, thoughts, comments, and what we've 464 00:35:28,639 --> 00:35:31,360 talked about so far, or does anyone here have a fandom or a favorite 465 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:36,199 character that they I don't know, have questions about our thoughts about in terms 466 00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:39,360 of how you've seen them psychologically through the mental health realm, or like what 467 00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:53,760 would they be like if they saw a therapist? Oh, okay, I 468 00:35:53,840 --> 00:36:00,480 sort of have two. One is when you think of like cop show like 469 00:36:00,679 --> 00:36:02,360 Law and Order and stuff like that, and they have a therapist, especially 470 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:07,400 with children, and they have to get to what happened. Or I think 471 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:10,480 of hill House because shunting of Hillhouse hunting and we actually do that on the 472 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:14,800 show and we talk about it because she can feel it, so she doesn't 473 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:16,280 need to know what the secret is. She can find out. Yeah. 474 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:22,119 Right, So how bad do they portray it? And how any examples of 475 00:36:22,119 --> 00:36:24,760 how good they portray when it's like one time case and you have to get 476 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:30,119 to the bottom of it. And two is there ever an instance where someone 477 00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:36,280 does not meet therapy? So short answer in the second of the last question. 478 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:40,119 No, So I would say Haunting of Hillhouse is interesting in that you're 479 00:36:40,199 --> 00:36:43,920 right, she can touch the person. I will tell you what's not true 480 00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:46,599 about Haunting of hill House. She calls one person and makes a report against 481 00:36:46,599 --> 00:36:51,000 one guy, and he's getting arrested and taken down down towntown. That doesn't 482 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:52,599 happen. I've actually, because I work with kids, I've made a lot 483 00:36:52,639 --> 00:36:58,159 of Unfortunately, I've made a decent amount of reports to children's services. I 484 00:36:58,159 --> 00:37:00,599 feel like whenever I'm taking it seriously, they're not, and whenever I'm not 485 00:37:00,599 --> 00:37:04,880 taking it seriously, they are. So that part was my biggest bug of 486 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:07,000 bian Haunting Hill. Also, I was like, there's no way on this 487 00:37:07,039 --> 00:37:08,519 earth where I could just ring somebody up and be like, arrest this man 488 00:37:09,039 --> 00:37:12,000 and they'd be like, yeah, sure, okay, we'll take them right 489 00:37:12,039 --> 00:37:15,360 out of that home. I would say, what you're talking about, it's 490 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:17,840 a little out of my wheelhouse because I don't do that work. But there's 491 00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:22,280 a difference between being a crisis worker and a social worker and a long term 492 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:27,519 therapist, so their objectives are different. Like there are people in our field 493 00:37:27,599 --> 00:37:30,920 to do things that's called SaaS, which as you go out to the home 494 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:35,199 during a crisis and do like an emergency assessment. Those kind of people they're 495 00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:37,000 not going to work with you long term, so they are they're objectives more 496 00:37:37,039 --> 00:37:40,800 to get to the bottom of it. For the objective of law and order, 497 00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:45,960 as you said, and then ideally that kid will be referred on to 498 00:37:46,039 --> 00:37:52,000 a therapist who might have to also process the trauma of that of Like, 499 00:37:52,079 --> 00:37:55,000 so you had a lot of adults asking you to tell the same story over 500 00:37:55,119 --> 00:38:00,280 and over again. And that's also a kid where I would be there very 501 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:01,920 slow and the work we did together because I don't want them to think I'm 502 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:07,639 another adult who's like kind of like pulling something from them for my own agenda 503 00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:12,079 so I can tell other adults about it. Like, that's the kind of 504 00:38:12,119 --> 00:38:15,119 case where I'd have to really establish for the kid that my objective with them, 505 00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:21,000 our relationship to each other, is going to be very different than their 506 00:38:21,039 --> 00:38:25,519 experience up to this point. I agree. I get called to scenes where 507 00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:34,920 officers or family members have been injured or unfortunately killed or and there's a very 508 00:38:35,039 --> 00:38:37,719 different type of work that needs to be done in the moment. People need 509 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,280 time and space to grieve what's happened to them, what's happened in their life. 510 00:38:40,559 --> 00:38:45,639 And you're in a forty three minute episode where you've got commercial breaks, 511 00:38:45,679 --> 00:38:49,119 you gotta you know, tight window where you got to cover this narrative piece 512 00:38:49,119 --> 00:38:52,239 and move on. And I think it does a poor job even though the 513 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:55,719 actor that plays the psychiatrist or psychologist on Law and Order does a wonderful job 514 00:38:55,760 --> 00:39:00,440 there. And then I thought it was so interesting they hired him to Hugo 515 00:39:00,519 --> 00:39:07,599 Strange in Gotham. But watching the care that they put into the writing of 516 00:39:07,599 --> 00:39:13,239 how he speaks about cases but then things get resolved so quickly is not real 517 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:19,320 and doesn't create realistic expectations. Yeah, Commander, and so are either of 518 00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:22,840 you current on Star Trek Strange New Worlds. I haven't watched it yet, 519 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:25,920 though it looks very fun. Well. One of the things I keep running 520 00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:30,800 with this past season is that the character of young James Kirk has always used 521 00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:34,800 this kind of this comic relief because he's constantly going for a snack every time 522 00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:37,480 he gets really nervous. And then I thought it was funny. This time 523 00:39:37,519 --> 00:39:42,400 I realized, Wait, he survived a famine on a failed colony. This 524 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,119 is a trauma response, And like, do you think that plays out pretty 525 00:39:45,119 --> 00:39:47,920 well? Fased on what I just said, I mean, I think based 526 00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:52,320 on just that little bit you said, so basically you said that this portrayal 527 00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:57,159 of Captain Kirk is that he will snack every time he's nervous. It was 528 00:39:57,199 --> 00:40:00,360 almost like a like a nervous tick kind thing. But then he also comes 529 00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:05,760 from a background which he experienced great famine. So I think you're hitting upon 530 00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:08,800 something which is really real, which is what do we find comforting, what 531 00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:13,159 do we find reassuring. I talk a lot with clients about when we have 532 00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:19,480 anxiety or trauma, we can have reassurance seeking behaviors that we fall back into 533 00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:23,639 when we are disregulated, and sometimes that is food. Food is comforting for 534 00:40:23,679 --> 00:40:27,559 a lot of people, so sometimes it can be that. I've also worked 535 00:40:27,599 --> 00:40:34,039 with a lot of kids who come from rocky backgrounds and so were they maybe 536 00:40:34,079 --> 00:40:37,039 didn't get fed a lot, they were neglected, or they were passed around, 537 00:40:37,159 --> 00:40:40,000 and so you can have a it's very easy to have a very complicated 538 00:40:40,079 --> 00:40:44,840 relationship with food as a kid and as an adult, because it's tied to 539 00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:47,559 survival. It's just not like, oh I love to I'm a snacker, 540 00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:51,800 you know. And when I've worked with kids who've gone through a lot of 541 00:40:52,039 --> 00:40:58,519 households, caregivers been neglected potentially also they would hoard food and then their parents 542 00:40:58,599 --> 00:41:00,960 would be like, I don't unders like they're adoptive parents or whoever's caretaking at 543 00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:04,920 the time would be like, I don't understand why this kid has cake mix 544 00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:07,039 or a can of beans in their room. One that's not fun food, 545 00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:09,840 and two I'm feeding them every meal time, And I go, yeah, 546 00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:14,800 for now, you're feeding them for now. They don't know that you're feeding 547 00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:17,800 them tomorrow or next month or in a year. So whatever they got, 548 00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:22,119 that's good. They're grabbing it because they're hoarding from a survival standpoint. So 549 00:41:22,159 --> 00:41:25,320 I'm almost with Kirk too. It makes me wonder is a part of him 550 00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:30,239 like I gotta get food while I can get it, And that's the connection 551 00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:35,639 being made and watching things like that where they show people having a response that 552 00:41:35,679 --> 00:41:39,320 they're trying to reregulate their body. When we are going through a survival moment, 553 00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:45,679 our physiological system is activating, our cortisol starts firing to prepare our body 554 00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:51,920 to receive adrenaline. Adrenaline activates our survival modes where there's no more thinking, 555 00:41:52,159 --> 00:41:54,639 there's no more talking. But sometimes in Star Trek they do a great job 556 00:41:54,679 --> 00:42:00,239 of showing like the importance of staying in that window of tirelance and not using 557 00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:01,880 it because if you lose your mind, like the jj Arams did a good 558 00:42:02,199 --> 00:42:07,239 one of that, showing him stay completely cool during the test in the academy 559 00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:10,280 where he had to like, now we're just gonna we're gonna watch it explode 560 00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:15,119 and stay in that pocket where you can think logically but still operate in a 561 00:42:15,119 --> 00:42:19,960 flow state, because if you get too activated, you lose your ability to 562 00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:23,079 think logical and you'll just start reacting. Anybody here lost their keys when they're 563 00:42:23,119 --> 00:42:28,920 late to work. What kind of stupid crap do you do in your house 564 00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:31,599 to find those keys? Yeah? Yeah, all right, you got a 565 00:42:31,679 --> 00:42:37,079 question, Go ahead, please, Yeah. I just saw the question that 566 00:42:37,119 --> 00:42:38,840 you post in the beginning of kind of why you started this show. In 567 00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:44,920 terms of in media, do we see good or bad therapists and shows? 568 00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:49,719 And so one that I saw recently the Patient with Steve Carrell, either of 569 00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:52,280 the two. I watched that whole thing. Yeah, it's really interesting, 570 00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:55,480 and I'm kind of just curious on what you think about it, because that 571 00:42:55,559 --> 00:43:00,760 was something interesting of therapists or people too, as I'm sure the two of 572 00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:07,280 you know. And it's kind of interesting about how you see that raw side 573 00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:09,559 of him and how he's not a perfect person. But it's interesting that trauma 574 00:43:09,679 --> 00:43:15,960 brings him to a weird, safer place, and I was wondering what your 575 00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:20,840 thoughts on that were. Yeah, have you seen it? I recommend everybody 576 00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:23,559 to watch The Patient. It's like eight episodes is thirty minutes an episode. 577 00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:28,840 Get into it. I don't know if I'm exactly going to get to what 578 00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:35,199 you're saying, but I think that he does an excellent job of a therapist. 579 00:43:35,519 --> 00:43:38,239 The way that he tries to continue to engage with him is a very 580 00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:43,000 good there, Like, I don't feel safe. Therapy can't be done in 581 00:43:43,039 --> 00:43:46,440 an unsafe environment. If people who don't know the premise of the show is 582 00:43:46,559 --> 00:43:50,639 he's a therapist that one of his new clients is actually a serial killer who 583 00:43:50,639 --> 00:43:54,320 then kidnaps him, keeps him in abasement to heal him from stotting opping a 584 00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:58,760 serial killer. And so what he does really well, which actually I was 585 00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:02,360 like, they have therapists on staff writing the show, is that he says 586 00:44:04,079 --> 00:44:08,000 he tries to win him over the serial killer by saying therapy. For therapy 587 00:44:08,119 --> 00:44:13,679 to go well, both the client and the physician, the clinician have to 588 00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:17,239 feel safe. I don't feel safe right now. I don't know how to 589 00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:21,239 feel safe right now, and because of that, I don't know how we 590 00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:24,000 can work together. And I think that that wasn't excellent. I mean, 591 00:44:24,039 --> 00:44:28,960 it doesn't quite. He doesn't win in that way, But I would say 592 00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:31,639 that was an excellent use of something that's very true in therapy, which is 593 00:44:31,679 --> 00:44:35,920 that everyone has to feel good and safe. And I think you're right. 594 00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:38,719 It does an excellent job of showing that therapists are just humans. Just because 595 00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:44,000 we can teach a lot of techniques doesn't mean that we necessarily utilize them well 596 00:44:44,599 --> 00:44:47,199 because the way I see it, because my sweet mother, who might be 597 00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:50,960 listening, when I start a therapist, he was like, well, you're 598 00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:53,480 a therapist, Why I don't don't you just know what to do? And 599 00:44:53,559 --> 00:44:57,519 I go, well, being a person. To be a person is to 600 00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:01,159 be knows like up to your knows at the painting of your life. You 601 00:45:01,199 --> 00:45:05,639 can't see yourself. You can't see the big picture of who you are. 602 00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:07,920 And part of being a therapist is and why they're not your friends, they're 603 00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:12,039 not your lovers. They're not your wife or your girlfriend or your neighbor if 604 00:45:12,079 --> 00:45:15,719 you can help it, is that they don't have any personal bias that keeps 605 00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:17,679 them from being able to step back and look at the whole picture of you 606 00:45:19,519 --> 00:45:22,280 and notice patterns, notice things that are getting in the way or the things 607 00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:27,199 that you haven't noticed yourself. And so I think that showed us an excellent 608 00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:30,239 job of showing that you can be a good therapist and kind of have a 609 00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:35,280 messy personal life if you can keep it together, because we all have parts, 610 00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:37,400 right, Yeah, how many of you are the same person at work 611 00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:44,000 that you are at home? No hands? No hands? Okay, so 612 00:45:44,519 --> 00:45:47,280 same for us. But that was a really great question. And if you'd 613 00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:50,639 like to come up get a shirt, We've got a lovely surf for you. 614 00:45:50,639 --> 00:45:52,840 All. Love that question. Yeah, does anyone else have any questions? 615 00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:55,119 I know you had your hand up, do you still You're good? 616 00:45:55,159 --> 00:46:00,559 Okay, So I think we're wrapping up there. But as anyone else have 617 00:46:00,599 --> 00:46:02,480 any comments or questions, I can just say that if you enjoyed what you 618 00:46:02,599 --> 00:46:06,920 heard today, we typically will pick up a movie an episode, so our 619 00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:09,639 recent ones have been a goofy movie, The Mummy, Spider Man, No 620 00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:15,840 Way Home. That's a great one in terms of grief empathy, the way 621 00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:19,880 that he got to see himself at different ages and they got to kind of 622 00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:23,039 counsel him. Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful, stunning work. So if you'll 623 00:46:23,079 --> 00:46:30,400 do you have a question, go ahead. So a couple of nights ago, 624 00:46:30,519 --> 00:46:32,800 when I was having a dinner with my family, my brother was like 625 00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:37,480 talking about the show. He didn't tell me the name, but like it's 626 00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:42,679 I think it's like a crime show, okay, And it was. It 627 00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:46,519 was something about like a false rape case where like the guy, the guy 628 00:46:46,639 --> 00:46:52,679 was like he was found not guilty, but like it's still like messed with 629 00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:57,199 him, Like he had like nervous breakdowns and stuff. How would you think 630 00:46:57,239 --> 00:47:00,639 that will like affect him in like the long run, because like he was 631 00:47:00,679 --> 00:47:06,880 like having all these like problems. Explain it, because I mean, I 632 00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:10,199 think what you're bringing up, I can generalize that question out and that whenever 633 00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:15,760 we've gone through something that inherently shakes up our ability to feel safe, which 634 00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:19,360 can be also being accused of a crime right with it turns your life upside 635 00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:23,760 down, we have to find a way to process that experience and then to 636 00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:27,880 realize that we're not going to be the same person we were before this thing 637 00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:30,480 happened that shook up our reality. And I think for a lot of people, 638 00:47:30,559 --> 00:47:32,719 there's this idea of that, and maybe this is why you were thinking 639 00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:36,519 that I have to go back to who I was before and if I can't 640 00:47:36,559 --> 00:47:42,039 do that, then I'm screwed. Something about me I can't fix. And 641 00:47:42,079 --> 00:47:44,360 instead it's more like, well, now this thing has happened, we have 642 00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:47,039 to radically accept that that's part of your story. Now, how do you 643 00:47:47,079 --> 00:47:51,599 live with that? And how do you try to make a life that feels 644 00:47:51,599 --> 00:47:55,119 safe enough again. You'll probably never feel safe as you did before, but 645 00:47:55,159 --> 00:47:58,960 that doesn't mean you can't work to a place where you feel safer than you 646 00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:01,239 do now. Yeah, And I think the only follow up I have on 647 00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:06,199 that is I want to say, like, finding the ability to grieve your 648 00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:09,880 past self after something happens to you. So many people just come into my 649 00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:13,119 office and say, I just want to get back to who I used to 650 00:48:13,159 --> 00:48:16,000 be, But that person doesn't exist anymore. The person who felt safe doesn't 651 00:48:16,039 --> 00:48:20,400 exist anymore, and you have to find a new safe now with what's happened 652 00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:23,239 and realized that that's not happening now. That's really easy for me to say 653 00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:27,000 at the end of our show in a four second clip. So I don't 654 00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:30,199 wanted to come across like it's that easy. It's not easy. It's really 655 00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:36,000 different. You have to regulate. There's one thing that heals trauma. There's 656 00:48:36,039 --> 00:48:38,239 lots of ways to get there. One treatment isn't necessarily better than another. 657 00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:40,960 It's what's right for the person. But you have to be able to have 658 00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:47,199 a relaxed muscle body while having the thoughts or memories of what happened to you 659 00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:50,880 online to be able to recover from it. But that's a really great question. 660 00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:52,159 If you want to come up, we'll give you a shirt. You 661 00:48:52,199 --> 00:48:54,360 can choose between the gray and blue or the black and red. All right, 662 00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:58,960 so we gotta wrap up. I'm sure we're getting the cane. So 663 00:48:59,519 --> 00:49:01,440 like, you can always find us wherever you listen, Spotify, YouTube, 664 00:49:01,519 --> 00:49:06,400 Apple Podcasts, wherever you enjoy podcasts, you can find us. Popcorn Psychology. 665 00:49:06,639 --> 00:49:10,079 You can find us Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, Popcorn Psychology. You 666 00:49:10,119 --> 00:49:13,960 can always email us a Popcorn Psychology gmail dot com. And we're around. 667 00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:16,519 We're in Chicago. So yeah, so thank you all for joining, Thank 668 00:49:16,519 --> 00:49:20,679 you for excellent questions, and I appreciate all your friendly faces that I can 669 00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:25,239 find in the crowd while i'm talking. Thank you, Thank you guys, 670 00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:27,320 okay, thank you, tipor