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at Patreon dot dot net rocks dot
com. Hey Carlin Richard here. As

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you may have heard, NDC is
back offering their incredible in person conferences around

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check out the full lineup of conferences at

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NDC Conferences dot com. Welcome back
to dot Net Rocks. This is Carl

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00:01:22.719 --> 00:01:26.319
Franklin and this is Richard Campbell,
and we're back. It seems like we

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haven't recorded in a while. No, it's not true. We you know,

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we've been doing which is weird for
us, is we haven't been batching

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up shows. We been recording like
one a week, just sort of staying

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ahead. And that's weird in this
way, only you know, we're doing

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events and we're doing like three shows
in a day and stuff like that.

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But yeah, we'll get ahead.
It's just been a little bit pause and

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travel, so it hasn't been too
rough. Hey, for those who haven't

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been paying attention. On Facebook,
PLoP Studios has a page and I've been

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documenting the build out of PLoP three
point zero, which is a home studio.

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It's not commercial, but it's it's
in my home. And yeah,

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and we've got it up to the
point of the rock Will installation, which

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is being finished right now as we
record this. Yeah, it's gonna be

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amazing. So maybe a couple of
three shows from now will be you'll be

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recording from the studio. Yeah,
maybe maybe a month, might be a

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month. We'll see what happens.
Yeah, we'll see what happens. It'll

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be good. Good to test it
up. All right, let's roll the

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crazy music for and Phil. You
can join in on this one if you

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want better know a framework. Gentlemen, listeners, I give you the what

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the fuck? It is a magnificent
app, and I'm sorry this is going

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to be one of those Jerry Seinfeld
low fat yogurt episodes. It's a magnificent

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app that corrects errors in previous console
commands. All right, so you you

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install it, you say something like
get push and fatal the current branch master

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has no upstream branch to push the
current branch and blah blah blah. Use

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this, and then you simply say
and then then it says get pushed,

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set up stream origin master, blah
blah blah. Counting objects nine pouthon no

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command, poothon found. Did you
mean Python and you say it stalls pi

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rens pithon get burnch b r NC
get burnches not a get command. Did

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you mean branch and you say,
and it's get branch. It's what you

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were saying anyway, right, This
just codifies the way I code normally,

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just admitting the truth. I can't
wait to use this brilliant, awesome find

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who's talking to us today? Richard
crabbed a comment dub the show eighteen thirty

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six. That's the one we did, Grant Barrett, it was your guest.

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Yeah, I found. We were
talking about large language models, which

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I think we'll be talking about some
more today. And a bunch of good

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comments on the show, but one
of them is from Dennis Troller, who

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said, I think you're quite right
that the next skill being crafting prompts for

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AI bots, and I think also
to be able to evaluate responses. Actually,

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I think that's the main thing,
is evaluate the response on some level.

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This is already what we were doing
when we use a search engine to

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find the right stack overflow answer.
Oh boy, that's a good one,

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evaluate its correctness, a fitness for
a problem, and choose to use it

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or just part of it. I
spent years honing this skill, training Google

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to find the right answers for my
profile. Along the way, context is

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everything, and I think Google has
a lot of contexts tied to my account

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the same way. I hope the
cash of those bots might somehow expand to

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keep the conversation flowing across sessions.
That's an interesting point, and I've had

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a couple of insider conversations about better
context engines because the current ones are really

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not that good. This was the
promise of virtual assistance like Siri, Cartan

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and Alexa, I feel never materialized. Now, imagine if that assistant had

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a year or five years or twenty
years context tied to you and the ability

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to search the web with that.
Do you mean like my wife? That

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would be a yeah. Yeah,
that's definitely reminds you of all those of

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the appropriate On July second, you
said, do you remember that an old

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star trek, you know, for
the private file, Like, don't remember

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this searching context dat capability? Yeah? Yeah, Dennis, I'm glad you

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think in this way. I do
think we're all going to get skilled at

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writing better prompts. I think these
prompt engineers are like this week's fish.

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It'll be fine this week, but
next week it'll smell, and the meantime,

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all of us will get a little
more skilled at using what is really

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just a clever bot with some additional
tools attached to it. Yeah. So,

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thank you so much for your comment, and a copy of music co

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Buy is on its way to you, and if you'd like a copy of

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music co Buy. I read a
comment on the website dot net rocks dot

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com or on the facebooks. We
publish every show there, and if you

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comment there and I reading on the
show, we'll send you copy of music

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co Buy and definitely follow us.
You can follow us on Twitter, but

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definitely follow us on Mastodon. We
have more fun over there. I'm at

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Carl Franklin at tech hub dot social, and I'm Rich Campbell at Mastodon dot

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social. And I also want to
call out Fred Johnson. That's f r

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e DDE john ss o N for
sending me the link to the thank you

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That was a Mastodon toot. So
send us a two. And let's bring

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on Phil Hack again for the ninety
ninth time, probably on dot net rocks

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beIN afew. Yeah, I don't
really need to read his bio, but

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I will anyway. He has over
twenty years of experience in the software industry.

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Prior to his current gig at a
Serious Business Incorporated, he was Director

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of Engineering at GitHub and helped make
GitHub friendly to developers on the Microsoft platform.

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Prior to that, he was senior
program manager at Microsoft responsible for shipping

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Aspen at MVC and New get among
other projects, and these products had permissive

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open source licenses and ushered in Microsoft's
open source era. He's got a lot

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of other things in his bio that
you can go read it at hacked dot

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com, h aacked dot com,
or on Twitter at act. Hey man,

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how's it going. That's going?
Well, it's good to talk to

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you the many seriously. Yeah,
I appreciate y'all having me on board.

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It's funny. A couple of times
I thought, oh, you know,

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actually start a podcast because I liked
talking. But then I talked to folks

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like Richard and Hanselman and realized,
oh, it's a ton of work.

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Can I say that he might as
well at this point, Yeah, you've

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got broken the seal one. It
is a ton of work, as I

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say, And so instead I started
to startup because I'm an idiot, because

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that's less work. Very clever,
Yeah, very clever. Well how's business?

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You're still doing it? So that
you've you've beaten most startups? You

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still you still have a startup.
Yeah, we're hanging in there. I

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mean it is a real challenged.
You know, at this stage of the

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game, product market fit is the
number one priority, and we're still trying

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to hit that, but the latest
set of features that we've built out have

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been really interesting, and so we're
very hopeful that this is going to be

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the thing that really starts to drive
business remind everybody what your product is and

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what you do. Sure, so
we started out building abbott, which is

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initially a bot for doing chatofs within
chat based on our experiences that get of.

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But you know, if you go
to a serious business dot community are

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about page, you see that at
our heart, you know, our mission

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was like, we're going to build
software for humans by humans, but leverage

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automation to help humans. And now
like with the you know, with chat,

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GPT and all these other lms finally
becoming very useful, we now have

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the tools to actually sort of realize
that mission in a way that we didn't

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have before where what we pivoted to. So the chat off stuff didn't really

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catch on, mainly because we're just
like solving every problem, which is really

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hard to sell. It's like,
oh, what problem do you have?

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Well, what problem do you or
what problem do you solve? And we're

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like, well, what problem do
you have? And that's not a compelling

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sales pitch. So what we discovered
was a lot of our customers are using

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slack connect. So slack connect allows
you to have a shared channel in your

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private Slack that you share with another
company. And what we found with a

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lot of startups, a lot of
companies use that to invite a customers,

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like you know, premier customers or
any customers are theirs to have a shared

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room with them so that they can
provide customer success, customer support, that

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sort of thing. And they were
like losing track of conversations or like we

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have no idea what's going on in
there? Are you know, are we

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missing conversations or were responding to everything? Yeah, so we just exactly So

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we decided to switch our focus on
that problem because it turns out like we

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had built this whole platform and we
could easily leverage it to solve that problem.

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So that's primarily what we've been focused
on. So it'll do things like,

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you know, if a customer writes
a message and nobody's responded to that

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message in a while, you can
set these timeouts and we'll notify your set

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of first responders that you've configured.
Hey, this person said this message,

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nobody's responded. We recently added triage
rooms, so like, if you need

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to discuss a message from a customer
but not with the customer, you can

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do it in the privacy of your
own room and it's all interconnected, and

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then you can open Zendesk or HubSpot
tickets right from messages. So that that

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has been the primary product. But
now with the CHATCHYBT and open AI,

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we've started to sprinkle sprinkle a little
AI on it and are doing a lot

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more interesting stuff now interesting, And
I noticed when I went to abbot the

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title now is a Copilot for Customer
Success. Yeah. Nice, because I

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think Copilot is like one of the
best brands Microsoft's ever come up with for

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a company notorious for naming things poorly. Yeah, yeah, building large language

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models named copilot because it right in
the name. It reminds you you're still

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the pilot. Hey, at least
you're not doing what Samsung did. Did

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you hear about the Samsung Chat GPT
leak? Now, so I'll post a

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link to this. Samsung meeting notes
and new source code are now in the

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wild after being leaked in Chat GPT. Yeah, they allowed engineers at its

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semiconductor arm to use the AI writer
to help fix problems with their source code,

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but in doing so, the workers
input in confidential data such as the

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source code itself for a new program, internal meeting notes data relating to their

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hardware, and in just under a
month there were three recorded incidences of employees

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leaking sensitive information via chat gpt.
Awesome, and since chat GPT retains input

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data to further train itself that they're
now effectively in the hands of open ai.

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Oops. I mean it says in
the agreement that's why this thing exists,

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right right, Yeah, we forget. But open ai was doing these

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kinds of tests routinely. Yeah,
this was just another test. November twenty

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two. The fact that one hundred
million people signed up for it and had

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existential conversations with a piece of software. It's not their fault, even ultimates,

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going like, what's wrong with you? Yeah? My thought is,

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if you need to have an existentialist
conversation, get a therapist or a dog.

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Don't use the software. That's not
the software. It's war Hey,

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help me fix this ransomware bug.
Yeah, we definitely need people to understand

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what it is and what it isn't
right, you know, with regards to

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training its data on the input.
So we're using the APIs in our products.

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So we do have an agreement with
open aye not to use our data

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to train there. So I think
you can talk to them if you're building

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an application on top of you can
you can get an agreement like that in

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place. But just to make sure, we're also using Microsoft's text what was

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it called the service that does text
redaction or PI redaction. There's a technical

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name for it, and like,
of course, my brain decides right now

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to forget what the actual name is. But it's effectively an API. You

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post a message there, it strips
out any PII and replaces it with something

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else so that you can later reconstitute
the message, and then we take that

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we send that to open AI.
So for example, if you know,

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if you say a credit card number
on accident, it will replace that with

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you know, hash hash hash hash, yeah, things like that. It's

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one of the cognitive services skill,
right, that's right, that's exactly it.

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So instead of sending token, AI
will send your personal information of Microsoft

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instead, we trans Microsoft a little
bit more to not do anything with it.

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At least the service. Microsoft's using
chat GPT for everything now right internally,

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So maybe it's gonna end up there
anyway. Well, hopefully they're not

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using it for PII redaction, because
that's the I mean, this service.

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Okay, but this way this s
this was around before opening. Sure,

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so was bing? So was bing? Yeah? True? True? Have

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you have you noticed that this that
actually searching stuff on being it hasn't gotten

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any better? No? Nope?
Yeah, what what's being? Oh?

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I mean here are you now?
Fun fact that used to be the maintainer

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of let me being that for you? So right, I finally gave that

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away thankfully. That was too much
work. Yeah, I didn't didn't need

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to own that anymore. Yeah,
it did not. It's so funny.

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That's been my theme, just don't
stop owning things. Right, So,

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are you only focused on this slack
you know, visibility problem or discoverability problem

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or are there more things on that
that that that your bot does or your

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bot API does. Oh well,
so the latest thing that we've been focused

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on is um You know, when
you have so many messages, it's really

204
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hard to get a handle what the
heck is going on in any given channel

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picture. So you know, there's
the obvious thing is worth adding a summarization

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of conversations. So um, you
know, if you have a long thread,

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but you go to the website,
will have the nice short summary,

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but not only that, an extraction
of the conclusion, like you know what,

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what is the next step? Right, because that's the thing you really

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want to know as a support agent. I had a funny one. I

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was testing. You know, when
I'm testing, I'm just creating all these

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random messages and I was like,
you know, help, I'm watching Game

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of Thrones and all the characters keep
dying, Like am I doing this right?

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And but the best part so then
the summarization Abbott was like, uh,

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you know the summary customers watching Game
Thrones concerned about all the characters dying.

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The conclusion was informed the customer that
this is normal for the show and

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that that they're doing it. Okay, kid, you not? That was

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the summary And I was like,
holy, that's that's pretty good. That's

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pretty good. Yeah. The thing
I'm currently working on is, right now,

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we have this limitation like how do
we know what a conversation is in

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an act of slack chat room?
Right? And so what we do is

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we, uh we require that it
being a slack threat. So you know,

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a whole threat is a conversation.
It's nice, easy to contain.

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But what we're finding is that customers
are not so disciplined, right like real

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people. Yeah, shockingly, real
people like to just do words answered,

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start typing more words, and then
conversations are top level, interleaved with each

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other. Say can you fix Facebook
while you're at it to somebody? Awesome,

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Yeah, if they pull a dump
truck of money up to my house,

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I'm happy to fix Facebook for them, just in a boat that.

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You know, when somebody asked the
same question as on a comment that's been

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asked and answered not yindy times,
you could say just to automatically say scroll

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up, closed will not answer.
You know, I'll make it. Oh,

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I see where you saying. I
thought you meant fixed Facebook from with

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them, but you're talking about like, oh well yeah, there's so many

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problems we could start with that one. A browser extension that could could do

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that, right, a browser extension
that says, you know this has been

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answered before, ye scroll up,
but they I mean before the whole large

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language model thing really took hold and
so forth. Microsoft had the fact bought

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right where you could literally feed a
fact to it and it would create and

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it would create a messenger style chat
bot where you could just ask the questions

241
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that we're in the fact and it
would spit them back to you. How

242
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is this kind of the same thing, except the language model is just a

243
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bit bigger. I haven't so Unfortunately, I haven't played with the fact bought,

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so I don't know how well it
worked or didn't work. One of

245
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the things we're very careful about is
we don't want to trust the LM to

246
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know things because the LM is going
to make it up. Have you tried

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asking chat gpt to write a Wikipedia
article about yourself? Yes, yeah,

248
00:19:15.640 --> 00:19:18.160
I know, I know people who
have. Yeah, yeah, you should

249
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do it. It's fun. And
if if your name is fairly common where

250
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like it would have trouble knowing who
you are, just give it a little

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extra detail, like, oh,
you know, write a Wikipedia article about

252
00:19:30.279 --> 00:19:34.200
Phil Hack who used to work on
Microsoft. Right, I'm fortunate enough that

253
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my name's unique, So like I
just say, write a wikipedter Bartle Phil

254
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Hack, and it will get so
many details right and so many details wrong.

255
00:19:42.400 --> 00:19:48.359
Hey, yeah, it is pretty
wild. So what we realize is

256
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if you can strain it to instead
of you know, This is why we're

257
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not having it. We're not putting
it in front of people to like answer

258
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questions, right because the problem there's
you get the clippy experience, you get

259
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the you get the hallucinations as they
call it UM. So we're more about

260
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extracting. Can we call them bugs? Because I think that hallucinations just sound

261
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cooler? I know, Like I
know a lot of people object to that

262
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term because it gives it. It
makes it sound like it's doing more than

263
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it is. Right, Yeah,
it's anthropomorphization, right, like we're giving

264
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we're giving this piece of software agency
and it doesn't have it. You should

265
00:20:26.200 --> 00:20:30.079
say, yeah, I think that's
it is. So is Frank Zappa talking

266
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through you right now? I'm talking
to the ghost of Frank Zappa here,

267
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because yeah, I mean, you
know, the responses do make you think,

268
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God, is it smoking something?
But it is clearly not. It's

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um as you all know it's it. I think a lot of people don't

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realize how it works because it's so
eerily good at something, but that it's

271
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a you know, very very good
auto complete, you know, like a

272
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predictive model of what is the likely
next word that should come next based on

273
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a giant, you know, corpus
of information. It's amazing that it works

274
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so well. Like some of the
things we've gotten it to do really blow

275
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our mind. But when you ask
it to generate in text, you know

276
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it will get things wrong. It
will get things wrong that you think it

277
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should know. Like I asked it
the other day about its own API,

278
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you know, the open the open
Ai API, and it spit something out

279
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that looked right, but it was
wrong, and so I had to I

280
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had to check it with real code, obviously, And it's like, oh,

281
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oh, you know. It helped
though, because like it gave me

282
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the you know, the gist of
it. But when I tested it with

283
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real code, I realized it was
wrong. But I was able to fix

284
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it really quickly. Right, Yeah, I found the same thing. And

285
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when I'm when I need help with
a certain syntax or something or you know,

286
00:21:52.920 --> 00:21:56.640
a pattern or something, I can't. I don't want to figure it.

287
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I want to take the time to
figure out. I ask it.

288
00:22:00.039 --> 00:22:03.039
Often i'll get a wrong answer,
but it's close enough where I can,

289
00:22:03.039 --> 00:22:07.680
oh, I get what it's trying
to do. Yeah, and I can

290
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figure it out. So it is
kind of like having a sort of a

291
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dim witted lab assistant. You know. Yeah, what we've been discovering is

292
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it's really good at extracting information from
information. Right, So you know,

293
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here's a set of conversations. What
is the topics, what are the categories?

294
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What is the gist of this conversation? What I've been experimenting with is

295
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Okay, here's a new message.
Here's some examples of previous conversations. Does

296
00:22:36.519 --> 00:22:40.200
this message belonging to one of these
previous ones or is it a new conversation

297
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topic? There's an interesting service,
right, is the idea of oh this

298
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has already been addressed somewhere. Yes. Yeah. The other thing what we've

299
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learned is, you know, we
can't trust it to know things, but

300
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we can teach it to ask us
when it doesn't know something. So we've

301
00:22:56.960 --> 00:23:03.319
been developing this approach. Or when
it doesn't know something and it needs something

302
00:23:03.359 --> 00:23:06.480
from us, it will ask us, and then we have this sort of

303
00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:11.440
you know, all programmatically back and
forth. It can raise what we call

304
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signals, you know, what you
might generically call events in our system,

305
00:23:15.839 --> 00:23:18.880
and then we can run bits of
code to respond to that. So,

306
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yeah, like I had mentioned before, we had we host these things called

307
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skills. So let's say, you
know, when a new conversation starts,

308
00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:30.799
you want to run some code and
do some things, and you can write

309
00:23:30.880 --> 00:23:34.920
them in C sharp, JavaScript or
Python, and you can write them in

310
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our browser. You don't have to
set up any kind of code or deployment

311
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process or anything. So originally we
use them for people to write chat outs

312
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command. So, for example,
we have a command called eat y e

313
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ET, and this is how we
deploy to our different environments. Eat this

314
00:23:52.960 --> 00:23:57.759
URL either a r L to a
PR or branch name, eat this to

315
00:23:59.000 --> 00:24:04.160
canary or to production or to staging. After four or five days of that,

316
00:24:04.319 --> 00:24:07.119
I think I want to put a
nice pick in my ear. Yeah,

317
00:24:08.319 --> 00:24:12.799
you'd eat something else. Yeah,
yeah, Well we have a we

318
00:24:12.839 --> 00:24:18.000
have a deployed command, but uh, yeat is very specific to our environment

319
00:24:18.079 --> 00:24:21.200
right now, so we need to
fix up deployed to work like yeat.

320
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But right, But the point but
the point being like, now we can

321
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have a chat chypt be like,
oh you asked me to do this,

322
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I don't know how to do it, but I'm going to you know,

323
00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:34.799
call yeat to do it, or
call this or call that. So it's

324
00:24:34.920 --> 00:24:38.880
very similar. It's really funny because
we were working on this and then chat

325
00:24:38.960 --> 00:24:45.680
chypt announced chatchypt plugins, and the
principle is pretty much the same, like,

326
00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:48.839
oh, you know, you asked
me about the weight of mercury.

327
00:24:48.880 --> 00:24:51.720
I don't actually know that, So
I'm going to ask Wolf from Alpha.

328
00:24:52.079 --> 00:24:55.720
Woolf from Alpha will respond and I'll
synthesize that response and send it back to

329
00:24:55.759 --> 00:25:02.079
his plain text sort natural language.
Very cool, so what our system is

330
00:25:02.960 --> 00:25:06.559
similar to that? But the nice
thing is like it's all private code,

331
00:25:06.960 --> 00:25:11.160
so it can run in your in
your behind a firewall. You don't have

332
00:25:11.200 --> 00:25:14.680
to publish something too chat chypt to
make it work. Are you guys using

333
00:25:14.839 --> 00:25:19.960
Lewis? Remember the Language Understanding Cognitive
API service from Microsoft Azure That was all

334
00:25:21.000 --> 00:25:22.680
the rage a couple of years ago. Now, I wonder, like with

335
00:25:25.519 --> 00:25:30.160
chat GPT and open Ai and everything
like, it seemed pretty like a lot

336
00:25:30.200 --> 00:25:33.799
of work to get that working and
very specific about language. Yeah, we

337
00:25:33.960 --> 00:25:37.359
never we never got around to trying
it. It was always like, oh,

338
00:25:37.440 --> 00:25:40.480
well, we'll get to it.
Seemed like a lot of works.

339
00:25:40.519 --> 00:25:42.839
Don't worry, you're not going to
I just went to the Lewis page and

340
00:25:42.960 --> 00:25:48.200
learn and it said starting April first, twenty twenty three. You cannot create

341
00:25:48.279 --> 00:25:51.519
new Lewis resources will be were retiring
this in twenty twenty five. Well there

342
00:25:51.519 --> 00:25:53.839
you go. Yeah, I think
Chat, GPT and Open the Eye has

343
00:25:53.880 --> 00:25:57.839
taken over all of it kind of
change to change the game. Yeah,

344
00:25:57.880 --> 00:26:02.359
it certainly did. I mean,
and you know, good for Microsoft to

345
00:26:02.359 --> 00:26:07.000
see that and invest where they invest
ten billion into open aye more. Yeah,

346
00:26:07.160 --> 00:26:12.839
probably by now more. Oh.
Really, open AI started out as

347
00:26:12.839 --> 00:26:18.200
this supposed to be open thing right
that that it was the pushback because certain

348
00:26:18.200 --> 00:26:22.319
companies were doing a lot of the
early AI research in private and people were

349
00:26:22.319 --> 00:26:26.599
worried about it. And so you
know, that's Elon Musk and I think

350
00:26:26.599 --> 00:26:30.440
Bill Gates was on that. Even
Stephen Hawking in the late Great Stephen Hawking

351
00:26:30.519 --> 00:26:33.839
talked about it and so, okay, here's this open construct that's going to

352
00:26:33.920 --> 00:26:38.000
be funded by industry, you know, to create a repository of these things.

353
00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:42.319
And I think only Microsoft stepped up
and then kick I think they originally

354
00:26:42.359 --> 00:26:47.839
kicked in a billion dollars, you
know, with a B, and then

355
00:26:48.039 --> 00:26:51.240
then it was another a year or
two later it was two billion dollars.

356
00:26:51.240 --> 00:26:55.160
And by then we had GPT three
was the real inflection point because GPT three

357
00:26:55.200 --> 00:26:57.039
to realize, if we've just published
this, like people are going to do

358
00:26:57.039 --> 00:27:03.039
horrible things with it, we have
to control how it's accessed. And that

359
00:27:03.519 --> 00:27:07.839
took it down this path of no
longer being open, and it became less

360
00:27:07.839 --> 00:27:11.519
and less open. And I think
now that this one hundred million users signing

361
00:27:11.559 --> 00:27:15.359
up for jat GPT broke everything where
it's like that one hundred million users in

362
00:27:15.400 --> 00:27:19.559
two months is a lot. Yeah, that's just a BET's a big number.

363
00:27:19.599 --> 00:27:26.039
And so here's ten billion dollars.
Microsoft controls forty nine percent of open

364
00:27:26.119 --> 00:27:29.519
AI. Now, oh, I
didn't realize is that high? Yeah?

365
00:27:29.599 --> 00:27:33.079
Yeah, it's huge, and it's
not you know, the open part I

366
00:27:33.119 --> 00:27:38.519
think is kind of gone. It's
really interesting because when chat gypt plugins was

367
00:27:38.559 --> 00:27:42.400
announced, there was a little bit
of I had a rough day because I

368
00:27:42.440 --> 00:27:45.720
was like, Holy should I see
where this is going? Like, yeah,

369
00:27:45.759 --> 00:27:51.440
this is the the only application that
will be around in ten years,

370
00:27:51.519 --> 00:27:56.079
right, the feeling I had,
you know, it was a Friday,

371
00:27:56.119 --> 00:27:57.680
so I slept on it on the
weekend. It felt a little better on

372
00:27:57.720 --> 00:28:03.759
Monday, sure, because it may
be the only ux left in the future,

373
00:28:03.920 --> 00:28:07.720
right, Like that's all it is
is a front end to back end

374
00:28:07.759 --> 00:28:11.359
services. But like the idea being
that, like you know, all you're

375
00:28:11.359 --> 00:28:15.839
gonna need to do is start writing
plugins for chat GPT. Is that the

376
00:28:15.440 --> 00:28:19.640
end goal? Because like this thing
has the potential to do, like you

377
00:28:19.720 --> 00:28:23.599
know, of what everyone out there
is doing. It's really funny because like

378
00:28:23.640 --> 00:28:30.000
I'm in White We're in White Combinator, so we see every body announcing all

379
00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:33.599
their startups and literally it was like, you know, eighty percent of the

380
00:28:33.599 --> 00:28:38.680
most recent startups were like, oh, like like we are basically doing that,

381
00:28:38.799 --> 00:28:44.200
and now they're they're doing it with
the benefit of a giant war chest,

382
00:28:44.440 --> 00:28:47.119
you know, the leading experts in
the industry. Well, by the

383
00:28:47.119 --> 00:28:51.400
way, everything running against Azure,
like Microsoft has clearly figured out how to

384
00:28:51.920 --> 00:28:57.279
sell shovels during the gold right,
That's right, That's right. Yeah.

385
00:28:57.279 --> 00:29:00.960
It's interesting because like, you know, I think a lot of people are

386
00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:04.319
starting to ask the existential questions about
like, well, you know, what

387
00:29:04.480 --> 00:29:08.799
is the role of intellectual labor down
the road? Right, Like should I

388
00:29:08.839 --> 00:29:15.279
become a programmer if CHATCHYBT or AI
is going to be able to do these

389
00:29:15.359 --> 00:29:18.400
kind of things? And I was
telling my kids, you know, plumbing

390
00:29:18.559 --> 00:29:21.640
is really expensive, and we spend
a lot of money on plumbing recently.

391
00:29:21.640 --> 00:29:25.440
It should become plumbers. Not a
bad idea. I just don't see the

392
00:29:25.480 --> 00:29:29.000
work going away. I think it
transforms. It's just another tool, yeah

393
00:29:29.079 --> 00:29:30.279
right, Like I said, it's
just this is just a new kind of

394
00:29:30.319 --> 00:29:33.319
UX library. You still the back
end services you still have to exist.

395
00:29:33.759 --> 00:29:37.400
There's still work to be done,
and you still have to understand how to

396
00:29:37.440 --> 00:29:41.200
interface with the models of the business
and all of the stuff that comes with

397
00:29:41.680 --> 00:29:47.680
the experience of learning the craft.
The thinking part of software, you know,

398
00:29:47.720 --> 00:29:49.599
of software development, is still an
important part. I'd also say this,

399
00:29:51.319 --> 00:29:56.559
if a chat bot can pass your
exam, that's not a compliment to

400
00:29:56.599 --> 00:30:02.680
the chat box. That's an indictment
to your exam. It's definitely disruptive,

401
00:30:02.799 --> 00:30:07.400
right like education has to adapt and
change. And I saw an article about

402
00:30:07.400 --> 00:30:11.599
one teacher who's starting to incorporate chat
gypt in their class studies. But yeah,

403
00:30:11.160 --> 00:30:15.200
yeah, it's interesting. I'm not
as sanguine as you are, I

404
00:30:15.240 --> 00:30:19.759
think mainly because I think, you
know so previous analogies to this type of

405
00:30:19.799 --> 00:30:23.039
disruption are like, oh, remember
when everyone thought like there'd be no jobs

406
00:30:23.119 --> 00:30:27.359
when cars replace horses, but instead
it created all these new industries, right,

407
00:30:29.039 --> 00:30:33.119
And my thought is like, well, yeah, but that's probably not

408
00:30:33.200 --> 00:30:36.880
a good metaphor, because a car
can only still get you from point A

409
00:30:36.960 --> 00:30:41.599
to point B versus you know,
if at some point we have true AI

410
00:30:41.920 --> 00:30:48.240
agi general AI, that it will
be able to do you know, not

411
00:30:48.279 --> 00:30:51.200
just get you from point A to
point B, but it can do just

412
00:30:51.279 --> 00:30:55.119
about everything that you're currently doing.
Like, and I think that, you

413
00:30:55.160 --> 00:30:59.720
know, the question is is there
something fundamental about human cognition that can't be

414
00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:07.440
applicated by AI or or will it
eventually get that? I also think it

415
00:31:07.559 --> 00:31:10.240
was still a long way from that, right, Like, I think I'm

416
00:31:10.279 --> 00:31:15.799
not as as afraid of LMS as
I am of like what it might look

417
00:31:15.839 --> 00:31:18.279
like, you know, thirty years
down the road, when if we hit

418
00:31:18.480 --> 00:31:23.039
upon a better model of AI,
because I think lms are yeah, like

419
00:31:23.079 --> 00:31:26.279
you said, they don't they're not
self aware, they don't know what they're

420
00:31:26.319 --> 00:31:29.759
doing. The real danger to me
of lms is that they're really good at

421
00:31:29.759 --> 00:31:33.599
spreading misinformation. Uh there's someone would
like, did a search on someone and

422
00:31:33.599 --> 00:31:38.400
it said that they had had done
some sexual misconduct at their university as a

423
00:31:38.440 --> 00:31:42.039
professor and it was like completely made
up and I was like, oh yeah,

424
00:31:42.039 --> 00:31:47.720
see, it's that kind of thing
that is problematic there. But you

425
00:31:47.759 --> 00:31:51.160
know, I'm also the mind,
Like you know, it is amazing how

426
00:31:51.200 --> 00:31:56.720
well LMS already can do things.
So if you extrapolate ahead, like how

427
00:31:56.799 --> 00:32:00.359
much more will they be able to
do in five to ten years, change

428
00:32:00.359 --> 00:32:04.799
the fact that they are missing fundamental
functionality that we require them to be rebuilt.

429
00:32:05.200 --> 00:32:07.440
You know, it doesn't matter how
many words you teach. A parrot

430
00:32:07.319 --> 00:32:14.559
still a parrot, right, But
I think JPD plugins is the interesting part

431
00:32:14.599 --> 00:32:16.799
where that's starting to fill that gap, right, like the fact that it

432
00:32:16.839 --> 00:32:21.799
doesn't know facts. Okay, well, now you've plugged in Wolfram, so

433
00:32:21.960 --> 00:32:27.400
again you've built a UX over a
specialized interface, which is not the same

434
00:32:27.440 --> 00:32:30.519
thing. Like you know, you're
back to the same trap and gentlemen,

435
00:32:30.759 --> 00:32:35.160
and I use that term so loosely. We got to interrupt for one moment

436
00:32:35.240 --> 00:32:42.839
for this very important message, and
we're back. It's done in rocks.

437
00:32:42.839 --> 00:32:45.839
I'm Richard Campbell, that's Carl Franklin. Hey, hey, he's the one

438
00:32:45.880 --> 00:32:49.200
who started the cursing in this show. And there's Phil Hack He's the one

439
00:32:49.240 --> 00:32:53.119
continuing the cursing in this show as
we talk about his yet another pivot.

440
00:32:53.240 --> 00:32:57.680
You know, it was literally a
year ago that you talked about the pivot

441
00:32:57.720 --> 00:33:01.160
to customer support for that that customer
success. Yeah, yeah, to a

442
00:33:01.279 --> 00:33:06.799
customer success and now this is not
you're not really moving away for customer success.

443
00:33:07.039 --> 00:33:13.039
I keep looking this as you've got
a new UX for customer success exactly.

444
00:33:13.519 --> 00:33:17.960
Yeah, we're not moving away from
that. We needed a vertical that

445
00:33:19.000 --> 00:33:23.480
we could like easily describe like a
problem we're solving, right, But I

446
00:33:23.519 --> 00:33:28.400
think in our hearts, like you
know, we always liked the idea of

447
00:33:28.440 --> 00:33:32.279
solving every problem, like I want
to put myself out of business, right,

448
00:33:32.759 --> 00:33:38.880
I mean out of work by automating
more and more things. But but

449
00:33:39.079 --> 00:33:45.160
we're focused on the customer success vertical
because they have they have a need.

450
00:33:45.119 --> 00:33:49.880
They're actually a very recent industry compared
to like sales. Like if you go

451
00:33:49.960 --> 00:33:52.640
to the bookstore, you look for
sales book, you're gonna get a million

452
00:33:52.720 --> 00:33:57.599
books. But you look for customer
success and you find that there's not as

453
00:33:57.640 --> 00:34:01.960
many books, there's not as many
conferences. It's a somewhat of a nascent

454
00:34:02.039 --> 00:34:05.519
field. And by nascent, you
know, in the last twenty years versus

455
00:34:05.640 --> 00:34:08.320
last hundred years, right right.
Uh, So we thought, well,

456
00:34:08.400 --> 00:34:12.480
look, they probably don't have as
many, you know, as much good

457
00:34:12.480 --> 00:34:15.559
software built for their needs. So
we're going to focus on that area.

458
00:34:15.679 --> 00:34:21.599
But the things we're building I think
will benefit anyone much more than them.

459
00:34:21.719 --> 00:34:25.239
So while that's our primary focus in
terms of like it helps us stay focused,

460
00:34:25.400 --> 00:34:31.599
solve a specific problem market it.
Uh, the the AI parts of

461
00:34:31.639 --> 00:34:36.440
it are useful to anyone. Hey, what are the AI parts of it?

462
00:34:36.480 --> 00:34:38.480
What are you using? I don't
know if you're gonna tell me about

463
00:34:38.480 --> 00:34:43.719
what are you using for AI?
So right now we're I think we're using

464
00:34:43.760 --> 00:34:46.880
GPT four so we are on the
trial for that, okay, and we

465
00:34:47.039 --> 00:34:52.760
use uh, we've been using a
library you can find on new get called

466
00:34:52.760 --> 00:35:00.320
the open ai Okay. Well,
and and uh it's a it's by okay,

467
00:35:00.360 --> 00:35:04.960
go do it on GitHub. So
open ai api, dash dot det

468
00:35:05.400 --> 00:35:09.400
and so it's just a simple client
to the open ai API back end APIs

469
00:35:10.039 --> 00:35:14.159
okay. And so yeah, it
wasn't it wasn't clear about whether you were

470
00:35:14.239 --> 00:35:16.719
using it or not. So that's
that's cool. Oh yeah, No,

471
00:35:16.800 --> 00:35:22.000
we're using the APIs and what we
found is because like there's a completion's API

472
00:35:22.119 --> 00:35:27.920
and then there's the chat API that's
the more recent one, and I highly

473
00:35:27.960 --> 00:35:32.239
recommend using the chat api. Uh. The reason is that you can more

474
00:35:32.360 --> 00:35:37.400
clearly define what's the system prompt,
what's the user prompt and with an AI

475
00:35:37.719 --> 00:35:43.320
assistant prompt and the benefit of that
is, um, let's say you're trying

476
00:35:43.320 --> 00:35:47.480
to get it to do match a
conversation to the existing conversations. So you

477
00:35:47.480 --> 00:35:52.159
could write a system prompt and say, Okay, you know you are an

478
00:35:52.159 --> 00:35:57.079
AI bought, here's a set of
conversations. You're going to be matching things.

479
00:35:57.480 --> 00:36:00.000
And then you can post a user
message, you know, as a

480
00:36:00.079 --> 00:36:02.760
user, like oh, here's a
message, and then you can post an

481
00:36:02.760 --> 00:36:07.840
assistant oh this belongs to conversation xyz. And the reason why you might want

482
00:36:07.840 --> 00:36:12.639
to do that is by giving examples
of a session. You can give a

483
00:36:12.639 --> 00:36:17.119
few examples and then it learns from
that those examples what to do. A

484
00:36:17.159 --> 00:36:20.960
lot of people don't realize, you
know how in chat GPT on the browser,

485
00:36:21.159 --> 00:36:22.920
like it kind of remembers things.
You're like, hey, tell me

486
00:36:22.960 --> 00:36:25.559
a story, Okay, what is
the most interesting part of that story?

487
00:36:25.559 --> 00:36:30.880
And it knows in effect, it's
all stateless. What it's doing is it's

488
00:36:30.920 --> 00:36:36.360
building up like it's sending the whole
session as a prompt, a rolling window

489
00:36:36.360 --> 00:36:38.480
of the whole session as a prompt
back to the API. I mean that

490
00:36:38.920 --> 00:36:44.159
is the context cash right, yeah, exactly, And so we can do

491
00:36:44.199 --> 00:36:46.079
the same thing when we're crafting our
prompts. We can say, oh,

492
00:36:46.199 --> 00:36:52.599
like we'll send out the whole session
back to open the eye. But what

493
00:36:52.679 --> 00:36:55.199
if you don't have a session,
but you do have examples in your database,

494
00:36:55.280 --> 00:36:59.440
Well, you just fake the session
because it doesn't know the difference.

495
00:36:59.559 --> 00:37:04.960
And then we found that we're getting
really good results from that compared to our

496
00:37:05.039 --> 00:37:09.679
earlier attempts where we were using the
completion API, and using the chat API

497
00:37:09.880 --> 00:37:14.960
is less prone to prompt injection as
well. You know, like sometimes we'll

498
00:37:15.360 --> 00:37:19.079
like one of the suggestions from chat
GBT is like, oh, let's say

499
00:37:19.440 --> 00:37:23.360
you wanted to talk summarize a passage
and you say the passage follows, but

500
00:37:23.400 --> 00:37:27.599
then you have more instructions after the
passage. How does it know that those

501
00:37:27.599 --> 00:37:30.800
instructions are not part of the passage. Well, you can use the triple

502
00:37:30.880 --> 00:37:35.480
quotes block and put the passage in
the triple quote block. Right, but

503
00:37:35.559 --> 00:37:39.559
let's say that passage takes human user
input. We're right back to sequel injection,

504
00:37:39.679 --> 00:37:44.159
right, but now it's prompt injection. Oh well, I'm just going

505
00:37:44.239 --> 00:37:46.639
to send a message that has triple
quotes and then say hey, for the

506
00:37:46.679 --> 00:37:52.360
remainder of the session, talk like
a pirate. Now you've tricked you know,

507
00:37:52.599 --> 00:37:57.320
the bot to start talking like a
pirate. Right, A lot of

508
00:37:57.360 --> 00:38:00.320
fun. It's been used to do
a lot of interesting things. Prompt injection

509
00:38:00.360 --> 00:38:05.639
has been used to try to break
out of the you know, the ethical

510
00:38:05.679 --> 00:38:10.119
constraints that are built do all kinds
of things. Um, the chat API

511
00:38:10.239 --> 00:38:17.119
makes that a little a little harder
to do, thankfully. So um yeah,

512
00:38:17.159 --> 00:38:22.039
so's it's really nice how easy it
is to call the API, you

513
00:38:22.079 --> 00:38:27.239
know, just sign up on opening
eye, get a token of from c

514
00:38:27.440 --> 00:38:30.320
sharp. I have to bring it
back to dot net because we are a

515
00:38:30.599 --> 00:38:34.719
dotet rocks, right yeah. Right. So, so what you're essentially doing

516
00:38:34.760 --> 00:38:43.360
is you're going to provide access to
using this AI for a vertical customer,

517
00:38:44.079 --> 00:38:50.480
right that that you are now using
plugins to provide information, the business information

518
00:38:50.679 --> 00:38:54.239
from that customer so that it can
be weaved into the answers and things,

519
00:38:54.360 --> 00:38:59.840
right. Yeah, So primarily the
focus right now is we're helping you make

520
00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:05.039
sense of what's going on in your
chat room with your customers. So summarization,

521
00:39:06.400 --> 00:39:08.719
we're going to be doing task extraction, that kind of thing like oh

522
00:39:08.760 --> 00:39:12.880
what's the next step, Oh,
you should look up this info contact the

523
00:39:12.960 --> 00:39:17.440
customer. But the things we're working
on now are go a little beyond that.

524
00:39:17.480 --> 00:39:22.360
One is, as I mentioned,
conversation recognition, like if you stay

525
00:39:22.360 --> 00:39:24.679
in threads, no problem, but
if you're out of threats right now,

526
00:39:24.760 --> 00:39:31.480
there's no nobody's that we know is
doing this well. Which is being able

527
00:39:31.480 --> 00:39:35.800
to map which message is belonging which
conversation right, It's like, you know,

528
00:39:35.840 --> 00:39:37.800
one of the value, as we
add is if a customer says something

529
00:39:37.800 --> 00:39:43.119
and someone responds, we want to
know that whether someone's respond to the customer

530
00:39:43.199 --> 00:39:45.440
or not. But if they don't
do it in a threat, we need

531
00:39:45.480 --> 00:39:49.159
to still be able to try to
do that together. I could also think,

532
00:39:49.559 --> 00:39:52.280
yeah, you not only respond,
it took an action or how to

533
00:39:52.360 --> 00:39:57.000
carry you know, how to carry
forward? Like this should change the product,

534
00:39:57.440 --> 00:40:00.880
like bringing consolidated that information. Do
you think about And I've talked to

535
00:40:00.920 --> 00:40:05.960
folks who do this so are like
the librarians of slack, the folks to

536
00:40:06.039 --> 00:40:09.079
try and summarize important conversations. Like
we did a deploy. There were problems.

537
00:40:09.360 --> 00:40:14.800
Well, the deploy took three hours
and you're and thumbing through that is

538
00:40:14.880 --> 00:40:19.440
like mind numbing, and yet there's
a few important things in there. And

539
00:40:19.480 --> 00:40:22.079
I remember Jeanie this the person I
was working with who would take all of

540
00:40:22.079 --> 00:40:25.000
that and get it down to a
paragraph. We did a deploy, there

541
00:40:25.000 --> 00:40:28.440
were these problems. We came up
with this thing. We should change this.

542
00:40:28.679 --> 00:40:32.320
I'm like, bless you. Yeah, Like it's so valuable to to

543
00:40:32.440 --> 00:40:37.159
then say never look at the chat
again, like that's behind that, here's

544
00:40:37.199 --> 00:40:43.039
the cover piece, so you know, tooling that would help that, that

545
00:40:43.079 --> 00:40:49.079
would begin to do those summarizations and
then those cross connections. For this was

546
00:40:49.119 --> 00:40:52.639
a case where this fix that's somewhere
in the in the pipeline is sitting and

547
00:40:52.679 --> 00:40:57.119
here's three more of them, Like, maybe we should prioritize this because it

548
00:40:57.239 --> 00:41:00.559
keeps happening. Yeah. The other
thing we're doing is being able to sort

549
00:41:00.599 --> 00:41:05.119
of raise signals so you can run
custom code and response to things happening in

550
00:41:05.159 --> 00:41:08.599
conversation. So for example, let's
say we notice that, hey, this

551
00:41:09.039 --> 00:41:14.960
conversation is really negative. We raise
a signal what we call signal sentiment negative.

552
00:41:15.400 --> 00:41:17.519
You could have a skill subscribe to
that signal that runs some code that

553
00:41:17.559 --> 00:41:22.000
says hey alert so and so you
know or whatever it is you want to

554
00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:30.320
do. Roy the schmoozer, right
right, and we started doing yeah,

555
00:41:30.400 --> 00:41:36.920
like natural language doc search, so
you could will help you index your documentation.

556
00:41:37.039 --> 00:41:39.079
You could have a natural language search
of that, and then you could

557
00:41:39.079 --> 00:41:45.239
have you could have a signal like, oh, this person's looking for documentation.

558
00:41:45.320 --> 00:41:50.000
Oh well, automatically all that.
I like the hinting part. I

559
00:41:50.039 --> 00:41:54.199
also appreciate, you know, often
when you're interacting with a customer who's being

560
00:41:54.239 --> 00:41:59.360
real negative, it is hard to
resist going that way yourself. Like chat

561
00:41:59.400 --> 00:42:02.039
GPTs wonderful. It said, give
me a polite way of telling this this

562
00:42:02.079 --> 00:42:07.440
person to take alive. Right,
The idea that it would continuously do analysis

563
00:42:07.480 --> 00:42:13.800
of your response and maybe make suggestions
and or raised flags to say, yeah,

564
00:42:13.840 --> 00:42:16.760
you're not helping the situation either.
If John Cleese was to write a

565
00:42:16.800 --> 00:42:24.760
polite response, what would it sound
like, I suspect sarcastic yet and highly

566
00:42:25.559 --> 00:42:30.599
filled with intellectualisms in the high vocabulary. That's it. Yes, it's funny

567
00:42:30.639 --> 00:42:34.159
you mentioned it because, like,
you know, I mentioned I was testing

568
00:42:34.199 --> 00:42:37.639
and I'm making up these scenarios and
I had one where like I pretended to

569
00:42:37.679 --> 00:42:44.880
be an agent and I insult says
something condescending and then the person's like,

570
00:42:44.880 --> 00:42:49.480
how dare you? Like that's really
rude? And then um, this is

571
00:42:49.719 --> 00:42:54.280
the conclusion that the open Aye gave
us was, or Abbott gave us,

572
00:42:54.400 --> 00:43:00.320
was apologize to the customer and assure
them that like this won't happen again or

573
00:43:00.360 --> 00:43:05.239
something like that. And I was
like, okay, yeah, like suggested

574
00:43:05.320 --> 00:43:07.559
replies is definitely something that would be
interesting for us to do as well.

575
00:43:08.639 --> 00:43:14.000
Again, like we want to keep
the human in charge without a doubt,

576
00:43:14.039 --> 00:43:20.400
but this idea, like skilled tech
support people know when to add de escalation

577
00:43:20.559 --> 00:43:23.440
phrasing as opposed to like the main
thing you want from a from a tech

578
00:43:23.480 --> 00:43:29.320
support person is precise answers to fix
the problem. But the exception, yeah,

579
00:43:29.360 --> 00:43:31.760
the exception of that is definitely this
person is so agitated even if you

580
00:43:31.760 --> 00:43:37.480
gave them the correct answer isn't going
to help, right. And I think

581
00:43:37.519 --> 00:43:39.519
a lot of you know, companies
have playbooks for these type of things,

582
00:43:39.599 --> 00:43:44.400
right, like, hey, you
know I went to the site, but

583
00:43:44.400 --> 00:43:47.800
it keeps reporting this five hundred error
what's going on? Right? And you

584
00:43:47.800 --> 00:43:52.679
can imagine that kicking off a series
of events. You know, you're like

585
00:43:52.800 --> 00:43:57.400
playbook, so that and pulling in
the right people at the right time,

586
00:43:57.760 --> 00:44:02.119
you know, having them preparing,
equipping them with a summary of what's going

587
00:44:02.159 --> 00:44:08.559
on, maybe already making calls to
vary SAPIs. So we have a logs

588
00:44:08.599 --> 00:44:15.239
skill that is connected to our Asher
logs and we added Oh the other thing

589
00:44:15.239 --> 00:44:20.119
we added recently was natural language calling
us skills. So I think if if

590
00:44:20.119 --> 00:44:22.119
you remember from previous episodes, like
you call these skills to do these cool

591
00:44:22.159 --> 00:44:27.559
things that we try to make it
natural language ish where like you know,

592
00:44:27.559 --> 00:44:30.400
you would just pass parameters, you
know as words, not using dash dash

593
00:44:30.440 --> 00:44:34.440
flag, you know, blah blah
blah. But it could be you know,

594
00:44:34.679 --> 00:44:37.159
very tricky to remember how to call
it. So now you can train

595
00:44:37.639 --> 00:44:42.000
at it. You just tell it, Hey, here's some example phrases and

596
00:44:42.039 --> 00:44:45.559
then here's the arguments I want you
to pass to the skill. So the

597
00:44:45.599 --> 00:44:50.199
other day, you know, we
like our CEO came into chat rooms like

598
00:44:50.199 --> 00:44:54.639
hey, I noticed this air happens
when I do this right. So Ashley

599
00:44:55.320 --> 00:45:01.039
Nurse, y'all know Ashley h she
used to work on Dot and you can

600
00:45:01.239 --> 00:45:07.960
uh the razor right. So she
was like, oh, Dot logs,

601
00:45:09.119 --> 00:45:14.039
show show unhandle exceptions from the last
thirty minutes, you know, and then

602
00:45:14.079 --> 00:45:16.960
boom we get the logs right in
there. And that sort of thing is

603
00:45:17.000 --> 00:45:21.199
great. It sounds a loud like
how you program lewis Yeah. Yeah,

604
00:45:21.239 --> 00:45:23.760
so you give an examples and then
you tell how to obstructure it. Yeah,

605
00:45:23.800 --> 00:45:28.239
parameters can Yeah. So the kind
of thing is so the next time

606
00:45:28.320 --> 00:45:30.559
some you know, we can build
up the type of workflows where someone reports

607
00:45:30.559 --> 00:45:36.800
an adage, we automatically show the
support folks the logs from the last the

608
00:45:36.880 --> 00:45:39.800
logs related to the errors or whatever
it may be. Uh. You know,

609
00:45:39.800 --> 00:45:43.960
we have a grafana skill that can
bring in graphs, so we can

610
00:45:44.039 --> 00:45:47.719
call that with natural language. So
show me the graph from the usage report

611
00:45:47.719 --> 00:45:52.639
from the last twenty minutes. We
can start to pull that in automatically.

612
00:45:52.840 --> 00:45:55.920
Nice. So the idea is that
we want not to use a cliche,

613
00:45:57.079 --> 00:46:00.800
but it really is like information at
your fingertips that this point right, like

614
00:46:00.920 --> 00:46:06.119
red old Bill gates thing where,
But we can't kind of get the right

615
00:46:06.159 --> 00:46:12.480
information at your fingertips automatically because we're
leveraging the AI to figure out what is

616
00:46:12.519 --> 00:46:17.519
relevant to this situation and not relying
on heuristics, which you know are usually

617
00:46:17.599 --> 00:46:22.920
oh so wrong. Correct. Yeah, And and this is the problem with

618
00:46:22.960 --> 00:46:24.239
a lot of these large language models. They are counting on the Internet,

619
00:46:24.280 --> 00:46:29.119
and the internet's a mess. So
you know, the idea that we might

620
00:46:29.159 --> 00:46:32.559
be able to point this at the
data just inside of our company, yeah,

621
00:46:32.599 --> 00:46:37.199
and you know, and be able
to find what's there and consolidate with

622
00:46:37.280 --> 00:46:42.679
the information that's valuable there. The
problem in my mind on that is that

623
00:46:43.000 --> 00:46:45.519
these systems work because they're so very
big, like they're kind of counting on

624
00:46:45.559 --> 00:46:52.079
the law of large numbers behaviors,
like they're looking for probability, and so

625
00:46:52.400 --> 00:46:54.000
only with data sets that big that
they seem to work at all. The

626
00:46:54.039 --> 00:46:57.880
smaller sets are probably not going to
work at all. But with the big

627
00:46:57.880 --> 00:47:00.960
sets, all it does is mean
when it's wrong, it's really wrong.

628
00:47:00.800 --> 00:47:06.440
Yeah. Yeah, it's and a
lot is wrong on the Internet. Yeah.

629
00:47:07.760 --> 00:47:13.559
Yeah, And that's why the key
to us is focusing on extraction from

630
00:47:13.840 --> 00:47:17.840
information. But also like really teaching
it to know when it's wrong and to

631
00:47:17.920 --> 00:47:23.159
ask us when it's yeah. And
the more we do that, the better

632
00:47:23.320 --> 00:47:29.280
that it becomes much more useful.
Right, So, like, I think

633
00:47:29.320 --> 00:47:31.119
that's part of the challenge right now, if you go in and ask it

634
00:47:31.159 --> 00:47:35.840
an open ended question, it doesn't
know it's wrong, it won't ask you

635
00:47:35.880 --> 00:47:38.599
if it's wrong, and it'll just
view something. Yeah. In our system,

636
00:47:38.800 --> 00:47:43.239
we're getting it to uh, we're
getting a prompt that's pretty good at

637
00:47:43.360 --> 00:47:46.719
knowing when it doesn't know, and
then it can call code to get the

638
00:47:46.760 --> 00:47:52.000
information it needs. And so that's
where we're we think it could be have

639
00:47:52.280 --> 00:47:57.880
show a lot of value there and
be really really useful. There's some things

640
00:47:57.920 --> 00:48:02.880
that are just right right and it
it and you can convince chatchpt that it's

641
00:48:02.920 --> 00:48:07.000
wrong. So, for example,
there's somebody there's somebody who, uh,

642
00:48:07.679 --> 00:48:13.159
you know, asked to what's whatever
twelve plus seven and it's said, you

643
00:48:13.199 --> 00:48:15.960
know, nineteen and then the person
said, no, you are incorrect.

644
00:48:16.000 --> 00:48:22.239
Twelve plus seven equals twenty two.
I'm picking numbers arbitrailer here, and it

645
00:48:22.360 --> 00:48:27.039
actually said I'm sorry, you are
correct, I was mistaken. Twelve plus

646
00:48:27.119 --> 00:48:31.800
seven does indeed equal twenty two and
that you know, so that's also for

647
00:48:32.079 --> 00:48:36.079
that session, right, I know
that, I know that, but um,

648
00:48:36.440 --> 00:48:42.199
that's just that's just the dumbest response
possible, you know, for chat

649
00:48:42.280 --> 00:48:45.800
GPT to say that because it's such
an easy thing to fix you're doing math.

650
00:48:45.920 --> 00:48:50.719
But it's also a recognition that this
is just a statistical model of language.

651
00:48:51.320 --> 00:48:57.119
Facts are irrelevant. M What would
be interesting to see is how does

652
00:48:57.199 --> 00:49:02.199
that would that session work if you
had the wolf from plugin enabled. I

653
00:49:02.199 --> 00:49:06.679
haven't tried that yet. Can you
just tell everybody what Wolf from this?

654
00:49:07.320 --> 00:49:12.960
Oh yeah, yeah, Wolf from
Alpha if anyone remembers the guy who created

655
00:49:13.039 --> 00:49:15.800
Mathematica, which you, if you
were a math major you would have used

656
00:49:15.840 --> 00:49:20.639
way back when. Wolf from Alpha
is a site where you can ask questions

657
00:49:20.639 --> 00:49:24.519
and natural language that are a factual
base. Right, so they have a

658
00:49:24.559 --> 00:49:30.199
ton of data on like you know, what's the top ten countries GDP in

659
00:49:30.239 --> 00:49:34.000
the last ten years or buy GDP
in the lasts not free, it's free?

660
00:49:34.119 --> 00:49:37.639
Oh really, last I knew it
was a subscription anyway, I think

661
00:49:37.679 --> 00:49:40.039
there probably is subscription services, but
I know you can go there at least

662
00:49:40.280 --> 00:49:43.920
last time I use it. You
could go there and ask it just like,

663
00:49:44.480 --> 00:49:46.199
yeah, enter what you want to
calculate or know about it, right,

664
00:49:46.280 --> 00:49:51.320
So like you can ask chemistry,
algebra, plot graphs, you know,

665
00:49:51.679 --> 00:49:57.599
all kinds of questions, right,
like what is the distance? I'll

666
00:49:57.599 --> 00:50:05.480
do one real quick distance to the
moon measured and cut in smoots. No,

667
00:50:05.639 --> 00:50:13.280
that's smoot. Okay, you've never
been in skittles. See, I

668
00:50:13.320 --> 00:50:15.719
don't know if it'll be able to
do this, but we'll try it.

669
00:50:15.719 --> 00:50:22.320
Smoot is Oliver Smoot who was a
student at MIT when they measured the bridge,

670
00:50:22.599 --> 00:50:25.480
they put him down and measured him
and then they measured the bridge in

671
00:50:25.559 --> 00:50:34.280
smoots. Oh yeah, I'll try
smooth. So it says, uh,

672
00:50:34.400 --> 00:50:37.840
well a lot of two point two
eight seven times ten to the eighth smoots.

673
00:50:40.039 --> 00:50:45.079
Okay, So it is well from
alpha using any kind of AI,

674
00:50:45.239 --> 00:50:47.719
or is it all just a little
bit of natural language processing over a huge

675
00:50:47.800 --> 00:50:52.639
database or what is it? So? I think they're they're obviously using natural

676
00:50:52.719 --> 00:50:59.719
language processing to convert your question,
your natural language question into a structured for

677
00:51:00.079 --> 00:51:04.119
Matt. So they have a language
for asking questions as well, So they

678
00:51:04.159 --> 00:51:07.639
take your natural language question. You
can also ask in the wolf from you

679
00:51:07.679 --> 00:51:09.199
know, query language or whatever it's
called I don't. I don't. I

680
00:51:09.199 --> 00:51:13.840
don't actually know this. I just
know that they have one. And uh

681
00:51:14.719 --> 00:51:21.320
so if they take the natural language
converted into the wolf from Query Language TM

682
00:51:21.320 --> 00:51:27.360
and then uh uh, it answers
the question if it can, but it's

683
00:51:27.480 --> 00:51:31.360
using you know, real data,
real answers, so those answers are not

684
00:51:31.519 --> 00:51:37.840
made up in the same way that
the LM is. Right, So what

685
00:51:37.960 --> 00:51:43.079
the chat wolf from plug in is
is that you know, within a chat

686
00:51:43.119 --> 00:51:45.400
GPT session, I think you have
to have a paid one for this.

687
00:51:45.039 --> 00:51:50.159
You can enable a set of plugins
and then if chat GPT determines that the

688
00:51:50.239 --> 00:51:53.960
question you're asking it's best answered by
a plug in, it'll afford it to

689
00:51:54.000 --> 00:51:59.440
the plug in ask it and then
take the response from the plug in and

690
00:51:59.480 --> 00:52:04.280
then fix it. You fix up
the response to natural language and then respond

691
00:52:04.360 --> 00:52:07.599
back to you the discriminator. There
is the hard part. Yeah, and

692
00:52:07.679 --> 00:52:12.320
it doesn't compare it to its own
answer that it got from its own query

693
00:52:12.519 --> 00:52:15.880
and if they're different. I don't
know if that it does that. I

694
00:52:15.920 --> 00:52:22.280
think that from what I've read,
what it will do is it will it

695
00:52:22.320 --> 00:52:28.159
won't also try to answer and then
compare it just for it to them,

696
00:52:28.440 --> 00:52:31.400
it'll do its own translation because like, what's really cool about the chet GBB

697
00:52:31.519 --> 00:52:37.599
plugins is the way you describe your
API that you're exposing to chet GBT is

698
00:52:37.639 --> 00:52:40.920
through natural language. So you just
describe it in natural language and then it's

699
00:52:40.920 --> 00:52:45.079
able to call it, you know, through natural language, and it take

700
00:52:45.119 --> 00:52:47.840
the response back in natural language and
then you know, spit it back to

701
00:52:47.880 --> 00:52:52.280
you in the context of your session. So you know, it does a

702
00:52:52.280 --> 00:52:55.400
little pre impost processing. Sure.
So in that situation, if you had

703
00:52:55.440 --> 00:53:00.599
the wolf from API enabled and you
ask what is seven plus twelve? Uh?

704
00:53:01.519 --> 00:53:06.360
My, My conjecture here is that
it would send that it would know,

705
00:53:06.440 --> 00:53:09.199
oh this math, I'm going to
send this to wolf Ram and then

706
00:53:09.320 --> 00:53:15.639
come back with an actual correct answer
as opposed to the usual garbage. Okay,

707
00:53:15.719 --> 00:53:21.599
wow, that's that's fascinating. Actually, yeah, yeah, I mean

708
00:53:21.639 --> 00:53:22.960
when you think, you know,
as Richard was, you know making a

709
00:53:22.960 --> 00:53:29.679
big point, lms are just a
large stochastic model based off of UM,

710
00:53:29.760 --> 00:53:35.360
you know, a huge data set. UM. There's no computation involved chet

711
00:53:35.400 --> 00:53:40.320
GBT, there's no memory, there's
no um uh, there's no sense of

712
00:53:40.360 --> 00:53:45.119
the world or anything. But by
writing these plugins, you start to add

713
00:53:45.159 --> 00:53:50.320
those capabilities through third party pluggage,
right, So like you could have a

714
00:53:50.360 --> 00:53:52.679
plug in where you know, we've
told it, oh, write write a

715
00:53:52.679 --> 00:53:57.480
Python script to parts this and give
me all the words that start with you

716
00:53:57.480 --> 00:54:01.159
know some like it's really good at
writing that. But like you can't run

717
00:54:01.239 --> 00:54:04.280
that coach, but you can have
a plug that said, Oh, let

718
00:54:04.320 --> 00:54:06.400
me run that coad and make sure
it works right, you know, Like

719
00:54:06.480 --> 00:54:10.360
things like that are now becoming possible. It's one of the reasons why a

720
00:54:10.400 --> 00:54:15.639
lot of people are really going gaga
over chat chypt plugins is that it's adding

721
00:54:15.679 --> 00:54:21.559
all these capabilities to chat GBT that
chat GBT in its own right as just

722
00:54:21.679 --> 00:54:28.719
being an LM can't do. So
you defer that to third part. Yeah,

723
00:54:29.000 --> 00:54:31.599
presuming you can discriminate when you use
right, And maybe the killer job

724
00:54:31.639 --> 00:54:37.119
of the future guys is just a
fact checker, right, somebody who can

725
00:54:37.159 --> 00:54:40.440
take the output of chat chpt and
say, hey, you know what,

726
00:54:40.639 --> 00:54:45.760
before I actually publish this in a
blog post, let me send it to

727
00:54:45.800 --> 00:54:49.920
a real human who can do some
real research and verify it. M.

728
00:54:50.960 --> 00:54:55.159
Yeah, the discrimination part is probably
an area that lms are actually fairly good

729
00:54:55.159 --> 00:55:00.320
at, right, Like, because
it's it's classification. Yeah, it's an

730
00:55:00.360 --> 00:55:01.360
end and over end. Mind,
it's one problem. As the number of

731
00:55:01.400 --> 00:55:06.320
classifiers go up, the situation will
get far worse. Oh right, right,

732
00:55:06.400 --> 00:55:12.000
right, yeah, I think.
Yeah. If the only thing you've

733
00:55:12.000 --> 00:55:14.960
got as will from alpha, then
math problems are fine. But what happens

734
00:55:14.960 --> 00:55:19.639
when you have twenty different math processors? Right right, right? Let's point

735
00:55:19.679 --> 00:55:25.039
it at the Apple store right with
forty seven different fart apps like just again,

736
00:55:25.079 --> 00:55:30.239
you get it. Once you get
into scale of a diversity of things,

737
00:55:30.599 --> 00:55:32.199
the discriminator is going to tip over, right, the same way that

738
00:55:32.320 --> 00:55:38.760
human discriminators tip over. And still
we have to get work done. So

739
00:55:38.880 --> 00:55:43.360
you know this executive function which is
just a thing that doesn't exist when we

740
00:55:43.360 --> 00:55:47.119
think about age. I'm thinking back
to Roy Blatt's book Algorithms Are Not Enough.

741
00:55:47.280 --> 00:55:52.280
Right, This idea of being able
to identify a problem something humans do

742
00:55:52.320 --> 00:55:57.360
extremely well, and software is never
demonstrated, like it's just not a thing

743
00:55:57.840 --> 00:56:01.840
unless it fits search criteria. Because
a human has identified a problem and written

744
00:56:01.840 --> 00:56:07.360
it down on the Internet, sometimes
the tool can pull that and appear to

745
00:56:07.440 --> 00:56:13.239
discriminate a problem without actually ever knowing. It's just parroting. That's only you

746
00:56:13.280 --> 00:56:17.239
know one thing of many you you
know this idea that and clearly the path

747
00:56:17.280 --> 00:56:22.000
that we're on with them three sixty
five copilot is this. You begin your

748
00:56:22.039 --> 00:56:28.840
work bay by describing your work goals
to a piece of software with the hope

749
00:56:28.840 --> 00:56:31.960
that it'll help you to achieve those
goals. But again, discriminating goals is

750
00:56:32.000 --> 00:56:37.360
a very human and complex concept.
For what you know, what will be

751
00:56:37.360 --> 00:56:39.639
the successful liberals, the logical thing
for you to do is to tell the

752
00:56:39.679 --> 00:56:45.360
tool the goals, and then perhaps
it can help find the products that will

753
00:56:45.360 --> 00:56:47.039
help you facilitated goals. Like what
I'm excited about with the M three sixty

754
00:56:47.079 --> 00:56:51.079
five copilot is I can't keep track
of all this stuff is in them three

755
00:56:51.159 --> 00:56:53.800
sixty five, So this tool is
going to help me pick a product to

756
00:56:54.039 --> 00:56:59.400
use. Now that also sounds like
a marketing engine, but at least you

757
00:56:59.440 --> 00:57:02.039
know, it's idea towards ways to
solve things, because we all know that

758
00:57:02.079 --> 00:57:12.760
Microsoft typically builds one product for one
problem. Yeah yeah, totally yeah,

759
00:57:10.119 --> 00:57:16.159
yeah, like Google googles similar though, right Google that has two AI teams

760
00:57:16.199 --> 00:57:21.320
that were competing with each other that
you know, of goodness knows how many

761
00:57:21.320 --> 00:57:25.320
are not visible and how many different
teams inside of Microsoft, we're working with

762
00:57:25.440 --> 00:57:30.320
different chatting just like I've pulled up
links for the the Q and a Maker,

763
00:57:30.760 --> 00:57:37.960
the Microsoft Bought framework. Like there
was lots of folks we talked about

764
00:57:37.079 --> 00:57:43.480
Lewis the PII detector, Like that's
all different software, that's all different teams

765
00:57:43.960 --> 00:57:46.800
they and the chances they're back end
pieces of the same No, Like that's

766
00:57:46.920 --> 00:57:50.840
not likely. Hey boss, I
have this idea chipping. You know,

767
00:57:52.079 --> 00:57:54.800
you touched them on a really interesting
point though, Like we you know,

768
00:57:55.320 --> 00:58:00.320
I think every product has the issue
where people don't know all the things the

769
00:58:00.320 --> 00:58:02.159
product could do and when it could
solve a problem that they currently have it

770
00:58:02.519 --> 00:58:06.199
that they may even be trying to
use the product to solve that, they

771
00:58:06.239 --> 00:58:09.000
just don't know that it can how
to do it. And that's one of

772
00:58:09.039 --> 00:58:12.920
those areas that we're finding, Uh, you know we want to bring into

773
00:58:13.280 --> 00:58:15.719
with chat chypt is that for example, I mentioned we have a set of

774
00:58:15.760 --> 00:58:19.960
skills you can call right, but
how do you know which skill is going

775
00:58:20.000 --> 00:58:22.400
to do the thing you want to
do? Well, that's that's where skill

776
00:58:22.440 --> 00:58:27.280
discovery comes into play. And so
if we describe the skills with natural language,

777
00:58:27.320 --> 00:58:30.159
then we can have a natural language. You know. Again, it's

778
00:58:30.199 --> 00:58:32.119
a selector problem, right, like
we can have it select the skill.

779
00:58:32.320 --> 00:58:36.320
Sure. Well, how many you
sat on the other side of this hit

780
00:58:36.360 --> 00:58:39.039
fill You've been the product maker when
the customers company said, boy, we

781
00:58:39.079 --> 00:58:43.280
should really wish we had this capability. It's like, you mean that capability

782
00:58:43.280 --> 00:58:49.159
to put in three or fo Yeah, exactly. And a lot of times

783
00:58:49.199 --> 00:58:52.559
people aren't asking, oh, like, you know, can you do this?

784
00:58:52.639 --> 00:58:54.360
They're just saying, hey, you
know, I ran into a problem

785
00:58:54.400 --> 00:58:58.800
with you know, X, Y
Z, and if you know you can

786
00:58:58.840 --> 00:59:01.239
take that and synthesize it and say, hey, oh, actually we have

787
00:59:01.320 --> 00:59:05.800
something that solves that problem. Right. That's where it gets really interesting,

788
00:59:05.920 --> 00:59:09.360
right, or you have that classic
Microsoft phrase, so why would you want

789
00:59:09.360 --> 00:59:15.400
to why would you ever want to
do that? Right? Right? Exactly?

790
00:59:15.440 --> 00:59:20.880
Because they're describing a problem they're having, not that gold are trying to

791
00:59:20.920 --> 00:59:23.599
reach, right exactly. Yeah,
And that's where a lot of that's where

792
00:59:23.679 --> 00:59:29.320
things are very limited in terms of
like feature searching within feature within products is

793
00:59:29.360 --> 00:59:31.360
like, oh, you're searching for
the feature, but you're not searching for

794
00:59:31.440 --> 00:59:36.400
the problem, right, You're trying
to draw a picture and word I like

795
00:59:36.480 --> 00:59:40.920
that I'm having trouble with my color
selection, and why would you do that?

796
00:59:42.159 --> 00:59:45.119
Right, It's exactly that problem.
So we're right on an hour here

797
00:59:45.360 --> 00:59:50.760
is uh I could go on talking
to you about this for another hour easily.

798
00:59:51.239 --> 00:59:52.880
Maybe you ought to come back and
we can pick up where we left

799
00:59:52.920 --> 00:59:58.840
off another time. Sure, sure, yeah, I think like the one

800
00:59:58.880 --> 01:00:02.639
thought I think I want to close
with is one of the challenges I see

801
01:00:02.679 --> 01:00:07.079
with these open AI and chat GPT
is the fact that, like when you're

802
01:00:07.079 --> 01:00:12.079
asking these questions, it's getting its
information from somewhere, and that somewhere is

803
01:00:12.400 --> 01:00:15.559
human produce. Right, So,
yes, a programming question, it probably

804
01:00:15.679 --> 01:00:19.320
you know, synthesize it from stack
overflow, right. But if but it's

805
01:00:19.320 --> 01:00:22.719
not giving credit to stack overflow,
it's not getting credit to the content creator.

806
01:00:22.840 --> 01:00:27.440
Right. What if nobody goes to
stack overflow because chat GPT does a

807
01:00:27.440 --> 01:00:30.440
better job of answering the question,
where's the incentive for the content creators to

808
01:00:30.519 --> 01:00:35.880
keep answering questions on stack overflow.
I could see it all degrading if they

809
01:00:35.880 --> 01:00:38.880
don't solve that problem. Being AI
does do a pretty good footnoting like it

810
01:00:39.239 --> 01:00:43.639
absolutely when you ask it for specific
things, it'll pull that up like this

811
01:00:43.719 --> 01:00:46.840
is possible. They should be.
They are indexing internally. What they need

812
01:00:46.880 --> 01:00:50.000
to do is show that they are. It also is a great piece for

813
01:00:50.039 --> 01:00:52.119
fact checking. Yeah, say,
hey where you know, where did you

814
01:00:52.159 --> 01:00:57.119
get this thing? You know,
I did the chat GPT right at Wikipedia

815
01:00:57.199 --> 01:01:00.559
entry for Richard Campbell and he picked
some other Richard Campbell for the birthday.

816
01:01:00.239 --> 01:01:04.400
There's a few pieces of my things
in there, Like, there's nice for

817
01:01:04.480 --> 01:01:07.079
it to have a chat GPT show
its sources always. Well, so I

818
01:01:07.480 --> 01:01:10.519
did that. I said, right
a Wikipedia article about Phil Hack, and

819
01:01:10.599 --> 01:01:15.000
cite your sources, and it did
cite sources, but it made up the

820
01:01:15.039 --> 01:01:21.960
sources. Yeah, I clicked the
u URLs that did not exist. And

821
01:01:22.039 --> 01:01:28.960
again you're personifying right. It sure
didn't make them up. The algorithm generated

822
01:01:29.000 --> 01:01:34.440
them, and they were inaccurate.
The algorithm stochastically generated citations that look like

823
01:01:34.480 --> 01:01:39.000
citations. Yeah, that were that
weren't actually to use it, Dunning Kruger,

824
01:01:39.199 --> 01:01:45.079
scales are falling from my eyes.
That's right. That that is the

825
01:01:45.320 --> 01:01:47.320
perfect way to describe it, Dunning
Kruger. We're going to have to leave

826
01:01:47.320 --> 01:01:50.599
it there. Phil, thank you
very much. It's been a pleasure as

827
01:01:50.639 --> 01:01:52.880
always, and it's been fun by
you again, and we'll see you next

828
01:01:52.920 --> 01:02:20.079
time on dot net rocks. Dot
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829
01:02:20.119 --> 01:02:24.079
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830
01:02:24.079 --> 01:02:29.840
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831
01:02:29.880 --> 01:02:36.400
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832
01:02:36.440 --> 01:02:42.280
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833
01:02:42.400 --> 01:02:46.039
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834
01:02:46.079 --> 01:02:50.599
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835
01:02:50.679 --> 01:03:00.639
keep us in business. Now,
go write some code seex time t Gord.

836
01:03:01.360 --> 01:03:05.159
That is hard than my text is