1 00:00:02,040 --> 00:00:07,320 I'm Nina Instead, host of the Already Gone podcast. Already Gone covers cases 2 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:11,759 of the missing and the murdered from Michigan and the Great Lakes region, cases 3 00:00:11,839 --> 00:00:16,160 you may not have heard before. Already Gone started in twenty sixteen, so 4 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:20,920 there is a big back catalog for you to explore. Find Already Gone on 5 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:32,159 Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcatcher. You're listening to the 6 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:38,399 Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, 7 00:00:38,679 --> 00:00:43,640 consulting producer, and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my experience 8 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:47,439 as the brother of a murder victim to help other victims of violent crime. 9 00:00:47,719 --> 00:00:51,359 I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the 10 00:00:51,359 --> 00:00:56,200 co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with Kristin Dilly. My 11 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:59,920 name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, 12 00:01:00,079 --> 00:01:03,760 and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media manager and co administrator 13 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:08,480 for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime, Bill Thomas. 14 00:01:17,239 --> 00:01:19,879 Welcome to Mind Over Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm Bill Thomas, 15 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:27,400 and we are here for two hundred episodes, mister Thomas, two hundred episodes. 16 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:32,280 Cue the applause. Sound, Hey, we have some applause here somewhere. 17 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:38,799 Hold on. Oh that sounds crazy through my headphones. I can barely 18 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:41,560 hear it. But I can't hear that there's applause. It's faint applause. 19 00:01:42,599 --> 00:01:48,040 But I really think you need a seventy six trombones which led the Grand Parade? 20 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:53,239 Can you sorry, music man reference? Can you hear the sound effects? 21 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:57,879 I can't. Actually, Oh that's interesting. They come through nice and 22 00:01:57,959 --> 00:02:00,920 loud my headphones. Now, I can only hear to tiny a little bit. 23 00:02:00,239 --> 00:02:07,920 Our roadcaster came with built in sound effects. There's even a want wall 24 00:02:07,479 --> 00:02:12,599 trumpet in here somewhere, and there's crickets, crickets. I do hear the 25 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:23,400 crickets. Now, Okay, these are sound effects we could use, and 26 00:02:23,439 --> 00:02:27,800 of course that one's appropriate for a true crime podcast. This is the magic 27 00:02:27,879 --> 00:02:30,400 of podcasting, folks. And keep in mind Bill's got all this on his 28 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:35,520 end. I do not have it on my end. He could technically, 29 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:40,680 he could do that any time he wanted, whenever I spoke, and I 30 00:02:40,719 --> 00:02:46,560 couldn't do anything about it, and thankfully I don't. Yes, I seriously, 31 00:02:46,439 --> 00:02:52,680 thankfully he doesn't. I think the theme music for Mind of a Murders 32 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:55,479 loaded in here somewhere too, although I usually fly it in from another location. 33 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:00,680 We have good theme music. We do good theme music. It's from 34 00:03:00,759 --> 00:03:05,360 Kevin McLeod, and we pay a little license fee for it and they let 35 00:03:05,439 --> 00:03:08,759 us run wild. I think we may need to run it a little more 36 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:13,199 often because it's pretty excellent theme music. I gotta say, maybe we can 37 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:15,560 do a little dance remix of it or something like that. Sometimes I listen 38 00:03:15,599 --> 00:03:21,159 to other people's true crime podcasts, not anywhere near as often as most people, 39 00:03:21,199 --> 00:03:25,360 because there's just not enough time, yeah, to listen to and watch 40 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:30,240 and read all of the things that we want to follow. I do listen 41 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:34,560 to some other true crime podcasts occasionally, and I think, oh, we 42 00:03:34,599 --> 00:03:42,639 need more wind effects or spooky sounds or footsteps crunching on gravel. Yes, 43 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:46,840 yes, there are some podcasts that have a lot of production value to it. 44 00:03:46,199 --> 00:03:50,560 Yeah, I don't find with us being what we're being where we are, 45 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:53,960 it's served us well for two hundred episodes and what almost three years here. 46 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:58,800 Yeah, we're coming up on three years. That'll be at the end 47 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:03,039 of the calendar year. Because remember we're a pre COVID podcast. We didn't 48 00:04:03,199 --> 00:04:08,479 start a podcast because of COVID. We started a year before COVID, didn't 49 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:12,599 We Yes, we did, we did. I know people were talking about, 50 00:04:12,759 --> 00:04:15,240 oh, those people who started podcasts during COVID because they didn't have anything 51 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:18,120 else to do. We had plenty to do. We did because of this 52 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:23,199 podcast. We didn't start it during COVID. We started before we started it 53 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:26,519 when it was COVID. It was just a little blip of something going on 54 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:30,079 the other side of the globe. Absolutely, we were here. First. 55 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:34,560 We made a decision now an executive decision, a joint one, as we 56 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:42,560 usually did that. We're now starting season three with our episodes two hundred and 57 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:48,319 towh one and twoh two are now considered part of season. We never really 58 00:04:48,759 --> 00:04:54,199 made a decision when we started how we were going to break up our seasons, 59 00:04:54,199 --> 00:04:58,120 because as a TV buff, I think of seasons as okay, season 60 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:01,680 of CSI is like twenty four up right, But we never had the discussion 61 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:06,360 of how long was our season going to be? So somewhere in there it 62 00:05:06,399 --> 00:05:10,160 was like, I think, when we start the Colonial Parkway murders. That'll 63 00:05:10,199 --> 00:05:14,279 be season two. We just never at any point were like, so when 64 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:16,600 do we end season two and start season three? And I guess the answer 65 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:20,920 is now now when we do it. It just occurred to me, as 66 00:05:20,959 --> 00:05:25,639 I mentioned to you earlier today, when we got to episode two hundred, 67 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:30,439 I thought maybe we should turn a calendar page here. Season three started with 68 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:35,199 episode two hundred, which is our latest interview with the Oram folks. Yay, 69 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:38,720 it's a good place to start. Yeah, I thought so too. 70 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:45,680 Kristin Middleman and Carla Davis joined us for a two parter which is getting fantastic 71 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:47,240 reaction. I hope you've had a chance to listen to it, and if 72 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:50,240 you haven't, please go back and take a listen, because it's a very 73 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:55,639 interesting conversation with the two of them about what they're doing at Othram, but 74 00:05:55,720 --> 00:06:01,399 also how forensic genetic genealogy works, how they're using it to help solve cases 75 00:06:01,759 --> 00:06:08,120 working with law enforcement, and they sound a very optimistic note, especially I 76 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:13,199 think at the end of episode two, in terms of the future of identifying 77 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:18,920 unidentified remains and murder victims, as well as working with law enforcement to identify 78 00:06:19,079 --> 00:06:27,519 offenders and solf cases. There's no question that this cutting edge technology is breaking 79 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:31,360 cases, which is very exciting. It really is. And we are so 80 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:36,519 privileged, and I mean that in a positive sense and not in the sometimes 81 00:06:36,519 --> 00:06:41,560 negative sense that people use it is. We are so privileged to know so 82 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:46,600 many amazing people who are working so hard to push these cases forward, and 83 00:06:46,639 --> 00:06:49,360 it gives us a lot of hope, especially because that kind of hope can 84 00:06:49,399 --> 00:06:56,800 be hard to find. Kristin Middleman mentioned that sense of hope and optimism on 85 00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:01,360 the part of family members who are looking for answers whether their loved one has 86 00:07:01,399 --> 00:07:09,720 gone missing, has been sexually assaulted, murdered. It's difficult to find optimism 87 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:15,399 in a situation like that where you've lost someone or they've suffered a tremendous violation 88 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:21,439 like sexual assault or murder. So for those who are left behind with nothing 89 00:07:21,439 --> 00:07:28,040 but questions, it's sometimes hard to find light in and a sense of hope 90 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:31,480 in all of that. And actually, one of the things that Kristin and 91 00:07:31,519 --> 00:07:35,800 Carla really liked and they were conveying in our discussion with them, is that 92 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:42,040 hearing from family members, even if they aren't necessarily people who have the answers 93 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:46,800 they're seeking. Yet I certainly feel this way, but I hadn't realized that 94 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:50,279 other people from other families would feel the same. As they explained it. 95 00:07:50,319 --> 00:07:55,199 I thought, this makes perfect sense because I feel it, and just because 96 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:58,000 it was buzzing around in my head, it just hadn't occurred to me that 97 00:07:58,079 --> 00:08:03,399 other people might share that perspective. It feels great, actually to hear about 98 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:09,480 other family members getting answers. Yes, so that sometimes when you feel like 99 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:16,160 it's just nothing but darkness and dead ends and frustration, something like investigative genetic 100 00:08:16,199 --> 00:08:20,879 genealogy or pentic genetic genealogy, you can call it what you like. Over 101 00:08:20,879 --> 00:08:24,399 the last what four or five years, since the Golden State killer and bare 102 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:28,199 brookcases and others, all of a sudden, there's a real cause for optimism, 103 00:08:28,319 --> 00:08:33,879 which which feels good. And I get jazzed when I hear about a 104 00:08:33,919 --> 00:08:39,720 case getting solved. Yeah, and I think you should and definitely I would 105 00:08:39,799 --> 00:08:46,000 say hope and optimism and that feeling that you want to be able to have 106 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:50,000 not only about your case but other people's cases is definitely something that we want 107 00:08:50,039 --> 00:08:52,720 to talk a little bit as we get into today's episode. So we do 108 00:08:52,799 --> 00:08:58,440 want to acknowledge the date when we're recording this. It is Monday, October 109 00:08:58,519 --> 00:09:05,360 the tenth, and has just passed the thirty sixth anniversary of your sister's murder. 110 00:09:05,919 --> 00:09:09,200 That's a hard anniversary every year, I know it is. We've been 111 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:13,279 together long enough now that I know this is a rough time of year for 112 00:09:13,399 --> 00:09:16,360 you, and it has become increasingly so for me as well. The more 113 00:09:16,399 --> 00:09:20,519 that I've known you and your family and the families of the victims, the 114 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:24,799 harder it actually gets every year. It doesn't get easier, And so I 115 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:28,039 do want to take a minute just to check in with you on not just 116 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:31,120 my own behalf, but I think on behalf of everybody out here who knows 117 00:09:31,159 --> 00:09:33,840 you and cares about you and wants to know, like, how are you 118 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:39,320 doing on this day? It is thirty six years later and we're still not 119 00:09:39,399 --> 00:09:46,039 any closer, And how are you doing with that today? It's difficult. 120 00:09:46,279 --> 00:09:50,600 This twenty four or forty eight hour period, the ninth or tenth, they're 121 00:09:50,639 --> 00:09:56,000 not one hundred percent certain when my sister Kathy and her girlfriend Rebecca Dewski died 122 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:03,039 sometime between Thursday night, October ninth, nineteen eighty six and the following Sunday, 123 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:07,639 which is October twelfth, and that's when the car is found. This 124 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:13,799 whole weekend, it's just very hard not to focus on the time of year. 125 00:10:13,919 --> 00:10:18,000 I was out walking the dog the other night and I'm looking up at 126 00:10:18,039 --> 00:10:24,039 this very bright moon. It was cold and windy, and we're living here 127 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:30,879 in Connecticut, so I'm not in Virginia, where the Colonial Parkway murders took 128 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:35,639 place. But it's really hard not to think about Kathy and Becky and all 129 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:41,399 of the victims in the Colonial Parkway murders. And it's a difficult time, 130 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:46,360 there's no question about it. I like the fall. There's a lot about 131 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:54,320 the fall that I enjoy back to school feeling, and the harvest and the 132 00:10:54,440 --> 00:11:00,240 leaves falling and crunching under your feet as you walk. And my family's from 133 00:11:00,279 --> 00:11:05,120 New England, so to be back here now in the Northeast reminds me of 134 00:11:05,279 --> 00:11:09,759 when we were kids. We had moved all over the country, but I 135 00:11:09,799 --> 00:11:13,440 have very strong memories of us moving back to Massachusetts when I was heading into 136 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:18,080 high school. Kathy and Jack would have been in elementary school, and my 137 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:22,600 older brother, Richard would have been a senior in high school. This case 138 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:30,279 just puts a negative cast, a negative slant on fall in October and all 139 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:35,759 those things I like about this time of year, these dates October ninth, 140 00:11:35,919 --> 00:11:41,759 tenth, it's really difficult. I find myself even I woke up in the 141 00:11:41,759 --> 00:11:48,480 middle of the night last night and I was thinking about the transition from the 142 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:52,600 ninth to the tenth, And like I said, there's the question still remaining 143 00:11:52,639 --> 00:11:56,159 about exactly when did they die. There's even I've been talking to some people 144 00:11:56,159 --> 00:12:01,799 who've been exploring the case with us. One guy in particular mentioned to me 145 00:12:01,919 --> 00:12:07,559 he thinks that there's a possibility that Kathy and Becky were held somewhere for part 146 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:11,799 or perhaps all, of the time frame from Thursday night until Sunday. And 147 00:12:11,879 --> 00:12:16,559 that's just a horrible thought to just think about. But I found myself awake 148 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:20,960 in the middle of the night last night. I got up and went down 149 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:26,320 the hall. I left Pamela and my partner and our docks and Oliver sleeping, 150 00:12:26,919 --> 00:12:31,840 and I was just thinking about that transition from October ninth to October tenth, 151 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:35,360 And I find myself thinking about were they alive still at that point? 152 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:41,039 Were they dead? It's just awful. It gets a little easier if I 153 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:45,559 get a few more days into October and we get past the anniversary. And 154 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:50,279 I was saying to a reporter the other day, who's doing some background discussions 155 00:12:50,279 --> 00:12:56,679 about a possible story on the Colonial park Rey murders, And I resist something 156 00:12:56,360 --> 00:13:01,519 every single year, which is sometimes as we head towards the anniversaries of the 157 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:07,399 various Colonial Parkway murders, someone will round the number up, like, for 158 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:11,840 instance, people had said to me in the August September time frame, this 159 00:13:11,919 --> 00:13:16,960 year, oh, thirty six years. And I always push back against that 160 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:22,600 because it's so hard watching the year's tick by. So when people round up, 161 00:13:22,639 --> 00:13:26,559 I always say, it's still really only thirty five. It's not thirty 162 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:31,919 six until October tenth. But now I can't do that, And so now 163 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:41,799 I'm looking at stories that ran online last year for the thirty fifth anniversary, 164 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:48,120 and it's just a very frustrating time. And overall we find ourselves at are 165 00:13:48,159 --> 00:13:52,440 very frustrating crossroads. Heay. I remember that when we first started working together, 166 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:58,360 it was the twenty ninth anniversary, and we were talking about it. 167 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:01,879 We really literally just started working together, but we were already talking about what 168 00:14:01,919 --> 00:14:05,440 can we do for the thirtieth anniversy, like, what can we do to 169 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:09,559 make sure that this is getting a lot of media attention. It does blow 170 00:14:09,639 --> 00:14:15,279 my mind that today it's we started together on twenty nine and here we are, 171 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:22,200 it's thirty six, and how much further have we actually gotten? Like? 172 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:24,840 How much? And I know that this is that question has to be 173 00:14:24,879 --> 00:14:28,360 double and even triply frustrating for you because you and your family have lived this 174 00:14:28,519 --> 00:14:33,120 longer, But even for me, who've been with this case for a relatively 175 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:37,720 short time, it's frustrating looking at this and going, yeah, how much 176 00:14:37,759 --> 00:14:41,679 has actually changed? How much has advanced between twenty nine and thirty six. 177 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:46,840 It doesn't feel like a lot, unfortunately, And I hate that that's so 178 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:50,159 frustrating. And talking to the other family member, there's a tremendous amount of 179 00:14:50,159 --> 00:14:58,240 frustration. Everybody reacts differently. Yeah, and that's something I've actually come to 180 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:01,919 understand and accept. And even during the time that I've been most actively involved 181 00:15:03,039 --> 00:15:07,360 in the Colonial Parkery murders, which is primarily since two thousand and nine, 182 00:15:07,879 --> 00:15:11,519 when the crime scene photo story broke that the FBI had lost control of these 183 00:15:11,559 --> 00:15:18,600 seventy eight holigraphic crime scene photos. In talking to family members that I've gotten 184 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:22,720 to know pretty well. There is a tremendous amount of frustration. It's palpable. 185 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:26,879 They are so frustrated. Those of us that are handled by the FBI, 186 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:33,240 which is the Thomas Dawski case, as well as Keith call and Cassandra 187 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:37,759 Haley their disappearance and presume murder. Those are FBI cases, as we've talked 188 00:15:37,799 --> 00:15:43,799 about, and then the Robin Edwards David Noblin case and the Anna Maria Phelps 189 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:48,399 Daniel Lower case, which are handled by the Virginia State Police. All of 190 00:15:48,399 --> 00:15:56,200 those families have expressed a great deal of frustration with the status of their investigations. 191 00:15:56,039 --> 00:16:00,440 It can be maddening just to feel that they are doesn't appear to be 192 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:07,960 substantial forward progress. Now. I'm obviously closer to the details of the Thomastowski 193 00:16:08,279 --> 00:16:12,559 case and to a certain extent that Call Haley case their FBI cases, and 194 00:16:12,879 --> 00:16:18,399 I have more contact with the FBI than I would with the Virginia State Police 195 00:16:18,399 --> 00:16:26,039 because officially I have no role in the Edwards noveling or Phelpslower murders. Certainly 196 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:30,559 I've talked to those families, but don't normally engage directly with the Virginia State 197 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:37,360 Police. Those families at different times have expressed a great deal of frustration with 198 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:41,120 the status of their investigations as well. You think to yourself, what's it 199 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:47,279 going to take to get FBI and Virginia State Police to put time, attention, 200 00:16:47,399 --> 00:16:52,720 and resources into these cases in order to move them forward exactly. And 201 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:56,240 I wanted to make sure that I sent us such when I posted this weekend 202 00:16:56,279 --> 00:17:00,559 on the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page, which we do hope everybody out here 203 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:03,640 is following. By the way, we haven't had a lot to report on 204 00:17:03,759 --> 00:17:07,640 the page recently because there hasn't been a lot going on in the case recently, 205 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:14,119 and that is horrifically frustrating, because you know that there's all this behind 206 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:19,599 the scenes maneuvering going on, or so the FBI says, they say, 207 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:23,720 we have stuff that's being tested. It's a quantico it'll be back any day 208 00:17:23,759 --> 00:17:30,279 now. I remember driving down to Savannah with Joyce Call a couple of weeks 209 00:17:30,279 --> 00:17:33,119 ago now, and I asked her, what is the latest that you've heard 210 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:38,000 from our case agent, and she said, oh, they say that there's 211 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:44,599 evidence being tested and they should hear back any day now. Okay, any 212 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:48,119 day now was a couple of weeks ago. Is any day now just going 213 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:52,720 to be like a running set of time frames that could encompass weeks to months 214 00:17:52,759 --> 00:17:56,599 to years. At some point it has to feel like they're just blowing you 215 00:17:56,759 --> 00:18:00,680 off and saying, oh, any day now, like a little pat on 216 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:03,119 your head like you would with a kid, sending you off to play. 217 00:18:03,319 --> 00:18:07,599 It feels patronizing, and it feels frustrating, And if it feels that way 218 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:08,880 for me, I know it's got to feel that way for you guys. 219 00:18:10,559 --> 00:18:18,319 In that example specifically, evidence was taken for retesting and sent back to Quantico. 220 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:23,640 And it's been a year since that evidence, which came from Keith calls 221 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:32,799 Toyota celica that would be where the evidence was extracted from and objects inside Keith's 222 00:18:32,839 --> 00:18:37,200 selica. We were told it was going to be two months and that was 223 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:41,759 over twelve months ago, yep. And the FBI even sent it to an 224 00:18:41,799 --> 00:18:45,519 outside lab, one of the best DNA labs in the country, highly respected, 225 00:18:45,799 --> 00:18:52,119 and still no results. And I've said, through gritted teeth to our 226 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:59,200 FBI agents that I don't need to be reminded that were a cold case and 227 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:06,039 we're the lowest priority. As I've said to them sometimes with barely concealed anger, 228 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:08,720 we don't need to be reminded of the fact that we're a cold case. 229 00:19:10,839 --> 00:19:15,240 The ticking of the calendar pages and the passage of year after year with 230 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:22,559 no answers has served as all the reminder we need that we're not a priority. 231 00:19:23,079 --> 00:19:26,440 As I said to the senior agent on the case a couple of months 232 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:34,359 ago, regarding current forensic testing, the pace of this forensic testing is ridiculously 233 00:19:34,759 --> 00:19:44,200 insanely slow. It's not acceptable. The backlog at FBI Quantico is outrageous. 234 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:49,599 The idea that it would take a year to get test results is insane. 235 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:53,519 A couple of months, I get it, and I understand that no one's 236 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:59,839 life is at risk if someone is in a hostage situation, or a kidnapping 237 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:03,279 or a murder has just taken place. I get the fact that case would 238 00:20:03,319 --> 00:20:10,839 take precedence over our case. I understand that a herorism case or something else 239 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:15,000 that was urgent where lives are at stake at this moment. I understand those 240 00:20:15,039 --> 00:20:19,079 things go first in line, but worse, so far at the back of 241 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:25,119 the line for us to be waiting a year later, where test results first 242 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:30,599 from Quantico as well as an outside lab under contract to the FBI. This 243 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:36,839 is ridiculous. It feels even more so because we know from our friends at 244 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:41,759 Athram, doctor Middleman and his wife and everybody over at Authoram who has been 245 00:20:41,839 --> 00:20:45,480 so generous with their time and attention to us, we know that they can 246 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:48,960 get results faster. We know that they can. It is possible. It 247 00:20:49,079 --> 00:20:52,519 is just that I keep joking and one of these days I'm maybe going to 248 00:20:52,599 --> 00:20:56,240 not be joking about it, but I keep joking that one of these days 249 00:20:56,240 --> 00:21:02,279 I'm going to run a heist where a group of highly trained thieves, all 250 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:07,039 dressed in black, sneak into the evidence vaults or wherever they keep this stuff 251 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:11,759 and liberate evidence and send it out to labs that will actually do the testing. 252 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,000 Oh sure. People have asked me recently about this. All of these 253 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:22,400 amazing independent labs that are breaking cold cases across the country, including many people 254 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:26,920 that we've interviewed on Mind over Murder and we will interview on the podcast in 255 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:30,920 the future. We feel incredibly fortunate to have met these people, talk with 256 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:37,960 these people and learn from these amazing scientists. But almost every top investigative genetic 257 00:21:38,039 --> 00:21:42,799 genealogist in the country has said to you and me or me, just get 258 00:21:42,799 --> 00:21:48,440 me the evidence. We'll run the tests. They know how hard the Colonial 259 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:52,319 Parkway murders families have worked to get results and to move things forward. In 260 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:57,799 our case, people have said to me privately, don't worry about the money. 261 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:00,759 If there's a cost, we'll find a way to pay for it. 262 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:06,279 Just please, Bill, get me the evidence. If we had access, 263 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:10,480 like you said, I remember when you told me this idea about the heist 264 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:14,720 and stealing the evidence. In our own case, I've run it as a 265 00:22:14,759 --> 00:22:18,039 movie, but honestly, part of me wants to do it in real life. 266 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:22,240 If we had access to the evidence, we would have run it through 267 00:22:22,279 --> 00:22:26,920 the system with all the top DNA labs in the country years ago. Honestly, 268 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:30,119 Okay, I'll go pick it up at Quantico, I'll run it to 269 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:33,839 Texas. We'll mind driving hours and hours to get it over to David and 270 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:37,720 Kristen at athrom or really to anybody in it. I really do think because 271 00:22:37,759 --> 00:22:41,920 I want to make sure that we say it explicitly, both for the people 272 00:22:41,079 --> 00:22:45,519 who are listening in our podcast audience, but also for the FBI. In 273 00:22:45,559 --> 00:22:51,759 case they're listening. Every top lab and geneticist in this country so far has 274 00:22:51,839 --> 00:22:56,759 offered to do the kind of testing on this case. Give up the evidence 275 00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:00,680 if you cannot do it at Quantico, and let someone else do it. 276 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:07,599 Please. These families deserve answers. Don't let the idea of we want to 277 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:11,720 be the ones to break this case. Don't let that hold you back from 278 00:23:11,759 --> 00:23:15,519 doing the right thing. Get the evidence to another lab if they can do 279 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:18,359 it, and they can, I know the FBI has. I am not 280 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:22,960 a stakeholder with the FBI. They could give a crap what I want. 281 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:26,559 But I'm here to tell you, as someone who is an advocate for these 282 00:23:26,599 --> 00:23:30,240 families, and as a podcaster, and as somebody who cares about these victims 283 00:23:30,319 --> 00:23:33,759 and these families, please give the evidence up to a lab that will do 284 00:23:33,839 --> 00:23:38,079 it. Please. We've been waiting for thirty six years. Carl Knobling, 285 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:44,480 who is David's father, just passed away. Yeah. Now that means that 286 00:23:44,759 --> 00:23:51,039 of the sixteen parents of the eight victims, we've now lost nine of the 287 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:56,319 sixteen. That's unconscionable. Nine of the sixteen mothers and fathers in the Colonial 288 00:23:56,359 --> 00:24:03,000 Parkway murders have died waving for answers. We're down to seven family members. 289 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:08,200 We have entire parental units. If we're gone now, my parents are gone, 290 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:14,839 the calls are gone, Both of the lower parents are gone. Some 291 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:18,319 people have said to me very bitterly family members, and others have said, 292 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:22,240 I think they're waiting for all of us to die. So we'll just shut 293 00:24:22,319 --> 00:24:26,960 up. You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back after this 294 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:41,160 word from our sponsors. We're back here at mindover Murder. Something else that's 295 00:24:41,279 --> 00:24:45,559 come up recently, and I had a very I don't want to say heated, 296 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:52,720 but somewhat contentious conversation with the senior agent in charge of this case when 297 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:57,599 he said to me they didn't have the funds. I want to be clearer, 298 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:04,119 the FBI senior agent has said to me repeatedly in the last few months 299 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:10,839 that they do not have the funding available to conduct advanced forensic testing, that 300 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:18,200 is testing it twenty twenty two cutting edge technology in the Colonial Parkway murders. 301 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:21,920 And I said flat out to the senior agent. I like this man, 302 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:26,200 but I said, you have got to be kidding. You're telling me that 303 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:33,039 the FBI doesn't have the money to conduct the testing required to solve these cases. 304 00:25:33,839 --> 00:25:37,400 And I actually said to him, the FBI is probably into the Colonial 305 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:42,720 Parkway murders for tens of thousands of hours. A lot of great work has 306 00:25:42,759 --> 00:25:48,880 gone into these cases over the course of now thirty six years. You're not 307 00:25:49,039 --> 00:25:56,119 willing to find the funds to conduct advance forensic testing that'll push one or more 308 00:25:56,240 --> 00:26:02,599 of these incidents over the finish line and could lead to a inclusion potentially identifying 309 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:08,480 a suspect or suspects plural. He actually said repeatedly, we don't have the 310 00:26:08,519 --> 00:26:12,440 funds. So then I said, the Colonial Parkway murders families have had some 311 00:26:12,559 --> 00:26:18,039 success with fundraising, not just the Thomas family, the other families, particularly 312 00:26:18,039 --> 00:26:22,400 the Colin Haley families. Oh yeah, they're raised funds. They'd had car 313 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:27,400 shows and fish fries and all sorts of get togethers. This is primarily in 314 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:33,599 Virginia. And they'd raised tens of thousands of dollars which they used for private 315 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:37,400 investigator travel. We did the billboards on Route sixty four to get the word 316 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:41,559 out about the case, so worthwhile things. And I said, look, 317 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:47,359 we're not made of money, but the families could raise funds and we have 318 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:53,039 tens of thousands of followers on the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page, on the 319 00:26:53,079 --> 00:26:57,200 Mind over Murder facebook page, We've had eight hundred thousand downloads. We have 320 00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:03,400 thousands of people that listen to the podcast. And without asking the question, 321 00:27:03,559 --> 00:27:07,599 or at least not asking the question yet, I said to the senior agent, 322 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:14,960 I'm pretty confident we could raise the funds necessary to pay for any private 323 00:27:15,039 --> 00:27:21,079 labs. And he actually said, we cannot accept gifts of that type. 324 00:27:21,079 --> 00:27:27,079 And I said, what he said, The federal government cannot accept gifts of 325 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:33,039 the type you're describing. And I said, this is a catch twenty two. 326 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:37,759 Now you're painting us into a corner. Now you're saying, literally, 327 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,039 the FBI doesn't have the money to conduct the advance forensic testing which we think 328 00:27:41,039 --> 00:27:48,839 could help break the Colonial Parkway murders and identify suspects. And then when I 329 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,920 say, okay, we'll find a private way to raise the funds, you 330 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:56,119 tell me that's not acceptable. I told him flat out, I said, 331 00:27:56,279 --> 00:28:00,319 your answer, with all due respect, your answer is not acceptable. And 332 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:04,240 I said, I want to be clear here, I'm not accepting this as 333 00:28:04,559 --> 00:28:10,720 an answer. I also want to be clear we're not going away, and 334 00:28:10,839 --> 00:28:14,400 we need to find a way to do this now. There may be a 335 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:19,319 possibility in the Virginia State Police parts of the case, particularly, I think 336 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:26,400 the Edwards Nobling case, there's some DNA evidence there with the Phelps Lawer case 337 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:32,640 incident number four on Interstate sixty four. I'm not a scientist, but what 338 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:36,559 the investigators have told us is they don't have a lot to work with there 339 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:41,640 from a scientific perspective, from a DNA evidence perspective, we do have some 340 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:49,160 badly degraded DNA evidence in the Robin Edwards David Nobling case, and that's a 341 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:53,440 case that's controlled by the Virginia State Police. So it's possible, and we're 342 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:57,440 going to try to explore this through the families. It's possible that we might 343 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:03,960 be able to raise funds to pay for advance forensic testing in Edward's noveling. 344 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:11,160 Wouldn't it be amazing if we were able to identify potential perpetrator offender in that 345 00:29:11,319 --> 00:29:17,519 case. Because the rules may be different, and this is something we're exploring 346 00:29:17,559 --> 00:29:22,079 them for the Commonwealth of Virginia versus the United States government, the federal government 347 00:29:22,079 --> 00:29:26,400 that the FBI is working under At the same time, there has got to 348 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:33,880 be a way for us to pay for any forensic testing done by a private 349 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:38,680 lab if it's necessary to cover those costs, and I understand that those labs 350 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:44,400 are amazing. Typically you're talking about five thousand dollars or so, which is 351 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:48,319 what Athram and Parabon and other labs are charging, which, by the way, 352 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:52,799 I'm sure doesn't even actually cover their full costs. They're just trying to 353 00:29:52,000 --> 00:30:00,000 establish that this science and this approach works, which is why they're setting up 354 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,240 price of five thousand dollars. When you think about the technology that's involved, 355 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:07,640 I don't think five grand is actually covering their costs, but my point probably 356 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:11,799 not. I'm pretty confident that we could come up with the money. You 357 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:15,880 can't just throw these catch twenty twos at us and say, oh, but 358 00:30:17,039 --> 00:30:21,559 we can't let that happen. And this is certainly not the kind of thing 359 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:27,880 that I imagine most people think of when they think about navigating the bumpy road 360 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:33,240 that comes with having a loved one who's murdered. I don't think terribly many 361 00:30:33,279 --> 00:30:37,759 people have stopped to consider that there are these sorts of things that the FBI 362 00:30:38,039 --> 00:30:41,640 or the state police will throw at you with, Oh, we don't have 363 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:45,079 the money to fund this, we don't have the manpower, the evidence got 364 00:30:45,079 --> 00:30:48,480 degraded. Oh we lost control of the crime scene photos. It seems like 365 00:30:48,519 --> 00:30:55,519 the Colonial Parkway murders. But the VSP and the FBI cases have been astoundingly 366 00:30:55,759 --> 00:31:00,920 unique situations that most people would never even have to consider being m And you 367 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:06,480 guys have all handled it so gracefully and so well over the years that I 368 00:31:06,559 --> 00:31:10,119 have worked with you. I frankly, sometimes I don't know how you get 369 00:31:10,119 --> 00:31:11,440 out of bed in the morning and do what you do, Bill, and 370 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:15,799 I would say the same is true for Joyce, the Haley sisters, anybody 371 00:31:15,799 --> 00:31:18,119 else. I don't know how you guys put one foot in front of the 372 00:31:18,119 --> 00:31:21,119 other some days, because this is hard, and it's hard for me, 373 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:25,079 and I'm not even a family member. My hat's off to you guys for 374 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:27,519 what you've had to navigate and what you continue to still navigate. Thank you. 375 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:33,920 I think the only answer I can give you is that you're not given 376 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:38,640 a choice. What's happened has happened. These tragic events have taken place. 377 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:45,000 I do understand that this is really difficult. It's difficult for all of us. 378 00:31:45,519 --> 00:31:48,359 I don't think we're always as graceful as you think we are, But 379 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:53,759 I think sometimes it's a matter of privately finding ways to bang your head against 380 00:31:53,759 --> 00:31:59,960 the wall when you're alone, or when I talk to Joyce or her brother 381 00:32:00,119 --> 00:32:06,880 Chris Call or Terry Haley or her sister Paula. There's anger. There's real 382 00:32:07,119 --> 00:32:15,920 anger and frustration and discouragement and sadness. At times. This is a maddening 383 00:32:15,039 --> 00:32:21,480 place to find yourself, and particularly to be hit with what feels like foot 384 00:32:21,559 --> 00:32:28,160 dragging and excuses and delays, and to be told, oh, we can't 385 00:32:28,359 --> 00:32:32,839 do this advanced test because we don't have the funds. Are you serious? 386 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:40,319 The United States government doesn't have enough money to cover a five thousand dollars DNA 387 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:46,880 test. And then even if I accepted that ridiculous, bullshit answer and said, 388 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:52,000 okay, we'll find a way to raise the funds. Like I said, 389 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:53,640 we're not made of money, but I'll take it out of my four 390 00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:59,039 O one K and then we'll figure out a way to reimburse the Colonial Parkway 391 00:32:59,119 --> 00:33:02,960 murders, victim fun We'll find a way to pay for it. But you 392 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,160 can't then say, oh, the FBI won't pay for it, and you 393 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:09,960 can't pay for it either, And then the DNA labs are saying, look 394 00:33:10,119 --> 00:33:14,359 forget the money, just to give me the evidence, and I'll test the 395 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:19,319 evidence for you. We'll work it out. As you said earlier, Kristin, 396 00:33:19,359 --> 00:33:23,519 if we could control the evidence, we would have already had these tests 397 00:33:23,559 --> 00:33:29,799 conducted. When I first reached out to Paul Holes, Barbara Ray Venner, 398 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:34,720 Steve Kramer from the FBI, and others, this is what four or five 399 00:33:34,799 --> 00:33:37,759 years ago now, when the Golden State Killer case broke. I reached out 400 00:33:37,799 --> 00:33:43,079 to these people and introduced myself and ended up talking to them on the phone. 401 00:33:43,119 --> 00:33:45,480 And I was always having the same conversation, telling them who I was, 402 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:49,799 and then saying, can you tell me about what you did here with 403 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,119 the Golden State killer case. This is so interesting, and I think this 404 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:59,079 idea that you had could be used for other cases, and of course it 405 00:33:59,119 --> 00:34:02,799 has been now hundreds and hundreds of times. But you have to have law 406 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:09,239 enforcement agencies willing to take a chance and find the funding. And we've seen 407 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:14,559 at outhram In particularly, they've also had a great deal of success with crowdfunding, 408 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,960 where they'll put it out there you and I have contributed to those testing 409 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:24,840 fundraising mechanisms and we've promoted them. It's fantastic when you see that put in 410 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:29,199 my fifty or one hundred bucks or whatever it is, and look, somebody 411 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:34,039 else could put in five dollars. If we all work together, it helps 412 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:40,320 them move forward cases that wouldn't otherwise be seeing testing done at this level if 413 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:46,000 at all. Then they're turning around and providing law enforcement with viable leads that 414 00:34:46,039 --> 00:34:53,119 are leading to identifying unidentified remains, naming potential suspects, and then law enforcement 415 00:34:53,159 --> 00:34:58,880 runs them down. And we're seeing cases solved all over the place. But 416 00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:04,360 you've got law enforce who are willing to partner with these amazing labs across the 417 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,800 country and cases are getting solved. I feel like right now with the Colonial 418 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:13,559 Parkway murders, we're getting nothing but static from the FBI and the Virginia State 419 00:35:13,599 --> 00:35:17,480 Police. They're like coming up with reasons to say no as opposed to let's 420 00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:22,159 find a way to get to yes. And for me, I see that 421 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:28,559 as it's institutional stubbornness. For sure, we're the ones who are going to 422 00:35:28,639 --> 00:35:30,639 do it if anybody's going to do it at all, and we can do 423 00:35:30,679 --> 00:35:35,360 it best, and to a certain extent, I also think it's arrogance. 424 00:35:35,519 --> 00:35:38,400 I think it's we don't want some other people to solve this case. We're 425 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:42,719 going to solve this case. It's going to be us. That's arrogant, 426 00:35:43,079 --> 00:35:46,679 and it is doing a major disservice to the families. I get mad about 427 00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:50,719 a lot of things, but I don't generally show that. But this is 428 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:54,199 the one thing. This is the one thing here recently that is it's making 429 00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:59,719 my blood pressure consistently run up. That in battling cell phones with my students, 430 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:01,960 those are the two things that are really getting my blood pressure going here 431 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:06,519 recently. What is it? But it really is it's just that sense of 432 00:36:06,559 --> 00:36:12,559 stubbornness and arrogance that we're not passing this off to another lab where the FBI 433 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,760 will solve it. Clearly you can't. Your lab either isn't as good as 434 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:20,440 you think it is as you say it is, or your lab is so 435 00:36:20,559 --> 00:36:22,679 backed up that you're never going to get around to our evidence, in which 436 00:36:22,679 --> 00:36:25,960 case, please hand it over to someone else who can do it. It 437 00:36:27,199 --> 00:36:32,119 just infuriates me that this sense of either stubbornness, arrogance, or a combination 438 00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:37,079 of both is keeping the FBI from handing over the sentence to somebody who we 439 00:36:37,199 --> 00:36:39,199 know can do something with it. You give it to author and they can 440 00:36:39,199 --> 00:36:43,679 break this case in I don't know, a couple months, and we wouldn't 441 00:36:43,679 --> 00:36:46,679 have to wait anymore. We wouldn't have to get to thirty seven. I've 442 00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:51,920 said to the FBI agent to a working our case, you break this case 443 00:36:52,559 --> 00:36:58,639 and I will sing your praises to the skies. Yep. This isn't about 444 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:05,360 which lab does the testing. It's about the fact that the backlog at FBI 445 00:37:05,519 --> 00:37:10,360 Quantico Labs is so outrageous, so bad, that it's taken us over a 446 00:37:10,519 --> 00:37:16,239 year to get results, which we still don't have in the latest go round 447 00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:22,519 of testing. In Keith calls toyoda slica and it makes us crazy to be 448 00:37:22,599 --> 00:37:27,599 told we should have results in six to eight weeks, call that two months, 449 00:37:28,039 --> 00:37:30,440 and now it's been well over twelve. I think we're like we may 450 00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:37,920 have be at fourteen months now is insane. And if you think I sound 451 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:43,880 fired up, try talking to the Colin Hanley families. This is their sister 452 00:37:44,079 --> 00:37:49,840 and brother's case. They feel like they're getting shined on by the federal fearer 453 00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:55,119 of investigation after being told six to eight weeks and now it's been at least 454 00:37:55,159 --> 00:38:00,119 twelve twelve months. Like I said, Joyce and I had seven hours in 455 00:38:00,119 --> 00:38:05,239 the car together going down to Savannah and she read me text after text from 456 00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:07,440 the case agent that you guys have worked with, and it is just no 457 00:38:07,559 --> 00:38:10,199 results yet. Hope to hear soon. Oh, no results yet. No, 458 00:38:10,199 --> 00:38:14,880 it's no results going to be here fairly soon though. Really I hope 459 00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:17,320 it'll be soon, and it's come on, How can you keep responding that 460 00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:22,320 way? How can you, in your heart of hearts. I know that 461 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:24,239 your case agent is a good person, I know that they mean, and 462 00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:28,719 I know that they really want to see this case solved, But how can 463 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:34,519 they, in their heart of hearts continue to respond hopefully soon. It's not 464 00:38:34,599 --> 00:38:37,119 going to be soon. It's just not. It's been over a year. 465 00:38:38,079 --> 00:38:45,920 It's hard for me to take a law enforcement agent and their agency seriously when 466 00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:49,880 we're seeing delays like this. And I need to be clear here, this 467 00:38:50,119 --> 00:38:55,039 latest round of testing with the call Haley evidence is not the only evidence we'd 468 00:38:55,079 --> 00:39:00,000 like to see tested. Every single go round, they send in a certain 469 00:39:00,159 --> 00:39:05,360 number of items, usually three or four something like that, you're not going 470 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:07,519 to send fifty or one hundred items. I don't think we have that many. 471 00:39:07,519 --> 00:39:13,000 But let's just say you're not going to send that many lots in for 472 00:39:13,159 --> 00:39:17,840 testing. That means that you send in items, get results, and if 473 00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:21,599 those don't give you what you want, then you're going to perhaps send in 474 00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:25,440 other items. But if every single time it's taking a year to get an 475 00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:31,360 answer, it's no wonder. We're at thirty six years in Tomastowski. We're 476 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:37,519 really frustrated and unhappy. We are going to try to continue to try to 477 00:39:37,559 --> 00:39:42,280 put pressure on the FBI and the Virginia State Police in the coming months to 478 00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:46,199 stop throwing up roadblocks, stop finding ways to say no, and start finding 479 00:39:46,199 --> 00:39:52,679 some ways to get to yes. But I remember when we first started working 480 00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:55,079 together on this case, and I would caution you every once in a while, 481 00:39:55,159 --> 00:39:58,320 Bill, you don't want to get too fired up about this. Bill. 482 00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:00,480 You got to stay calm. Bill. We can't talk about this on 483 00:40:00,519 --> 00:40:05,119 the podcast the way that you do. And now I think I messaged earlier 484 00:40:05,119 --> 00:40:08,000 today, I said, I'm willing to I'm willing to stir some stuff up. 485 00:40:08,079 --> 00:40:12,159 Let's do this, let's talk about it on the pod. I get 486 00:40:12,159 --> 00:40:15,599 where you come from when you get so upset and frustrated, I really do. 487 00:40:16,199 --> 00:40:22,039 I hate seeing that this is just a continual source of frustration over and 488 00:40:22,079 --> 00:40:25,440 over again. Free you in for all the families, because it just isn't 489 00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:30,519 fair. Where is the justice in this? Our great friends of at real 490 00:40:30,559 --> 00:40:34,320 Crime Profile have always had a wonderful hashtag that I really like, which is 491 00:40:34,559 --> 00:40:38,679 justice delayed is justice denied? I still feel that very much in my heart. 492 00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:43,400 Justice delayed is justice denied. And the more and more that you delay 493 00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:49,480 the testing and delay everything else about this case, the longer it is going 494 00:40:49,559 --> 00:40:52,920 to take to find the person who did this and to bring them to justice. 495 00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:59,199 We'll close out the conversation today by trying to end on a positive note, 496 00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:04,280 which is this, We very much appreciate all the support that all the 497 00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:08,360 people that listen to mind over Murder, follow the Colonial Parkway murders and mind 498 00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:14,480 over Murder on social media have expressed over the years. We hope that you 499 00:41:14,599 --> 00:41:20,320 will continue to show us that support and that good faith and that hope and 500 00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:24,639 optimism. And I'm not a terribly religious man, but boy, it doesn't 501 00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:30,119 hurt my feelings at all when people say We're praying for you because I think 502 00:41:30,159 --> 00:41:36,760 we need all of those things in order to move this case and these incidents 503 00:41:37,119 --> 00:41:45,639 towards an appropriate conclusion, which is identifying offenders and bringing these cases to justice. 504 00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:50,280 I can't think of anything better to close with other than to say that 505 00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:53,280 on this October tenth, I would like to honor the memory of Kathleen, 506 00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:59,480 Mary and Thomas and Rebecca Anandowski. Thank you so much for listening to this 507 00:41:59,519 --> 00:42:13,480 episode of mind Over Murder. We'll see you next time. Mind Over Murder 508 00:42:13,639 --> 00:42:19,639 is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers are 509 00:42:19,679 --> 00:42:24,000 Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. Our 510 00:42:24,079 --> 00:42:30,119 theme music is by Kevin McLoud. Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with 511 00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:35,320 crawl Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 512 00:42:35,519 --> 00:42:38,440 You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, 513 00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:44,440 and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas five six. 514 00:42:44,920 --> 00:43:06,360 Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder. No const