1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:07,200 You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,719 --> 00:00:12,039 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:16,000 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,239 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:24,679 murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 6 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:29,079 Kristin Dilley. My name is Kristin Dilley. I'm a writer, a researcher, 7 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,799 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media 8 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:37,880 manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in 9 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:49,799 crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind of a Murder. I'm Kristin Dilley 10 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:54,479 and I'm Bill Thomas, and we're thrilled to be joined today by Carol Costello, 11 00:00:54,759 --> 00:00:59,560 journalist and true crime podcaster. Carol. Thank you for joining us today 12 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:03,880 on Mind or Murder. Oh I'm still getting used to the true crime pod 13 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:10,560 connector thing. Welcome to the I'm so thrilled to be on your show. 14 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:12,640 Thank you for inviting me. But we are so thrilled to have you. 15 00:01:12,719 --> 00:01:18,959 Can you start just by telling anyone who's unfamiliar a little bit about yourself in 16 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:23,959 your professional background. Oh, man, I was a professional journalist for thirty 17 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:27,599 five years, which seems incredible to me. For twenty of those years I 18 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:32,959 spent at CN, where I was a national correspondent and anchor, and I 19 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:36,640 loved CN. And I know it's in a precarious state right now, but 20 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:38,560 a lot of good people over there. But I did enjoy my career there 21 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:45,680 and I learned a lot. I left in two eighteen and I teach journalism 22 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:49,760 at Loyal Marymount University and I also produce a true crime podcast. I also 23 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:55,799 have created a program for student journalists to cover the presidential election of twenty twenty 24 00:01:55,840 --> 00:02:00,680 four with an emphasis on civil discourse. So they're out there work right now. 25 00:02:00,079 --> 00:02:05,799 Bravo. I love that. That's fantastic. And I've read how many 26 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:08,840 presidents you have interviewed. It's a lot. You've really had a lot of 27 00:02:08,879 --> 00:02:14,759 FaceTime with people who are holding the office of president or would like to hold 28 00:02:14,759 --> 00:02:17,039 the office of president. So that's going to be an interesting program in and 29 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:23,759 of itself. Oh yeah, I covered what five or six presidential elections and 30 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:28,319 inaugurations, and I worked for the Will Flitzer Show for a while, so 31 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:31,319 I was a political reporter, which was very interesting. In twenty sixteen, 32 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:36,599 I covered politics quite extensively, which was really interesting. Yeah, but I 33 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:39,919 do. It's hard to say that you enjoy covering politics, because that's not 34 00:02:40,039 --> 00:02:45,400 exactly the right word. But it's always fascinating because it really gives you a 35 00:02:45,479 --> 00:02:49,719 sense of the state the country's in, and I find that to be amazing. 36 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:53,599 Let me ask a question, then, would you rather cover hard news 37 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:59,879 than political stuff? I consider politics hard news because it's just, you know, 38 00:03:00,319 --> 00:03:04,439 it should be serious, it should have meaning. It shouldn't just be 39 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:07,439 about the insults the politicians trade. It should have a deeper meaning. So 40 00:03:07,479 --> 00:03:12,319 I always tried to concentrate on that kind of political reporting. When I was 41 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:16,199 a young reporter coming up through local I always covered crime. I had the 42 00:03:16,319 --> 00:03:20,800 court beat and the police beat. So I went down to the police department 43 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:23,479 every morning and I went through the police reports, and then if a big 44 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:28,919 crime would happen, I would cover the case from the investigation stage through the 45 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:31,639 trial. So I did that when I was a local reporter and I became 46 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:37,319 an investigative reporter when I hit Washington, DC, and I did all kinds 47 00:03:37,319 --> 00:03:40,360 of stuff then, which was interesting. I know, I'm asking what is 48 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:46,080 probably going to a massively complex question to answer, but let's go ahead and 49 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:51,240 give it a shot here. Over the course of this amazing journalistic career that 50 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:54,400 you've had, you have covered a lot of stories. Are there any ones 51 00:03:54,479 --> 00:04:00,479 that jump out at you immediately as being so compelling you feelolutely thrilled and privileged 52 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:04,439 to have covered them? Oh? So many. The one that's cne that 53 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:08,680 really stands out to me, oddly, there was a young reporter who was 54 00:04:08,759 --> 00:04:14,039 shot to death while she was doing a live report on television. I remember 55 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:17,600 that, yes, Alison Parker, Yeah Parker. We covered that in real 56 00:04:17,639 --> 00:04:21,720 time, which is very difficult as an anchor, it's really difficult. And 57 00:04:21,759 --> 00:04:25,959 I could so relate to that because it reminded me of me back in the 58 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:31,399 day. And her father saw my reporting. Andy Parker, Yeah, yeah, 59 00:04:31,439 --> 00:04:35,839 and we became acquaintances. He appeared on my show a lot, and 60 00:04:35,879 --> 00:04:43,240 I'll always remember he approved of our coverage and of my coverage of the event. 61 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:46,959 I always appreciated that about him, And then he went through such a 62 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:50,160 rough time because people can be really cruel, and he became an applicant for 63 00:04:50,199 --> 00:04:55,319 gun control and all that stuff. He's still active in that area. Fought 64 00:04:55,319 --> 00:04:59,240 to get those images of his daughter off the internet, which wasn't easy. 65 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:03,519 That story really stands out in my mind for many reasons. And then the 66 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:08,879 other story that of course affected me was the subject of my podcast blind Rage, 67 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:13,680 which I covered as a young reporter, where this woman was carjacked, 68 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:19,120 rape repeatedly. Her attacker blinded her so she couldn't identify him. He tied 69 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:21,639 her up and put her in the car and set the car on fire, 70 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:26,680 and off he ran. And somehow this woman found the will to survive, 71 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:30,399 and not only that, but the will to become a part of the investigative 72 00:05:30,439 --> 00:05:34,600 team investigating her case. And then she became an advocate for the victims of 73 00:05:34,639 --> 00:05:40,560 sexual assault in the blind So that story stuck with me for thirty years, 74 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:44,639 and I kept in touch with Phillis cottell Off and on for all of those 75 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:50,399 years until she died. So, yeah, Phillis's story, which is unbelievably 76 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:55,160 dramatic, and even when you give us a capsule version of what happened to 77 00:05:55,199 --> 00:06:00,199 her, we're both wincing because it's just such a difficult thing to listen too, 78 00:06:00,439 --> 00:06:02,959 as well as for you to report. It seems like that one was 79 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:06,480 one that just stayed with you. And so when you decided I'm going to 80 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:11,519 do a true crime podcast, I want to tell Phillis's story. Yep, 81 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:14,720 it wasn't the other way around, though. It wasn't I need to start 82 00:06:14,759 --> 00:06:18,519 a podcast in order to tell Phyllis's story. I've always wanted to tell Phillis's 83 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:21,160 story, and I started to write a book, and you just don't have 84 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:26,279 time because I was working, and it just so happened when I retired, 85 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:30,680 podcasting was it, And what a great way to share such an impactful story. 86 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:34,639 I think the reason that Phillis's story stuck with me is I covered that 87 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:40,079 case when I was twenty two years old. Now I was doing like none, 88 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:44,079 like none, and I was tasked with trying to get an interview from 89 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:46,720 a victim of trauma, especially that kind of trauma. I was tasked with 90 00:06:46,879 --> 00:06:51,319 covering that sort of crime that I didn't think was even possible for that kind 91 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:56,800 of evil to walk the earth, And then to figure out the investigative process 92 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:00,759 and how to get information and then the trial, I was learning in real 93 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:04,040 time, and I was dealing with people's emotions while learning in real time, 94 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:09,439 and I made mistakes. And I think that's part of the reason that story 95 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:13,120 stuck with me as well. You were pretty much fresh out of Kent's State 96 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:16,439 at that point, weren't you. I was a senior in college. Wow, 97 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:21,199 it's crazy. How old would Phillis have been at the time of her 98 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:26,120 attack. She was forty four, so it's like my mom, right, 99 00:07:26,199 --> 00:07:30,000 Yeah, she must have picked up on immediately on the fact that you were 100 00:07:30,199 --> 00:07:35,720 a CUB reporter. With all due respect, she never said that, and 101 00:07:35,879 --> 00:07:43,800 that's I think Phillis was such an unusual person. She actually she probably secretly 102 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:48,360 welcomed that because she found a way to manipulate the media for her own ends. 103 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:53,800 Phillis was amazing that way. So I'm not sure she would tell me 104 00:07:53,839 --> 00:07:56,600 even if she felt that, because she would say, oh, my, 105 00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:01,240 my young mind, that would be Phillis. How do you tag your journalistic 106 00:08:01,279 --> 00:08:07,639 objectivity when you're covering a story that is so personally affecting and personally moving. 107 00:08:07,879 --> 00:08:11,439 I don't know that I'd be able to what's interesting because when and I'll go 108 00:08:11,439 --> 00:08:16,560 back to that beginning with Phyllis, she was a very sympathetic victim. You 109 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:20,839 just rooting for her, right. The man who attacked her, Samuel Herring, 110 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:24,959 was a bad dude, really bad. It never occurred to me, 111 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:30,120 as a young reporter to try to figure out why what made him that way 112 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:35,320 is that's a really personal, unusual crime to perpetrate on a stranger because he 113 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:39,679 didn't know Phyllis. I asked myself today, why didn't I go back and 114 00:08:39,159 --> 00:08:43,120 investigate his background? He committed his first crime at the age of eleven. 115 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:48,159 How does it happen that he gets no psychological help through all of those years? 116 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:50,960 How does it happen that he goes to prison again and again and has 117 00:08:50,039 --> 00:08:54,080 led out early. I never did any of those stories. I only covered 118 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:58,960 it from the emotional aspect, which was Phyllis's story, because that's the story 119 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:03,159 that and I'm going to sound really crass, but that's the story that sells. 120 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:07,840 As I think back on that now, I was not objective, but 121 00:09:07,919 --> 00:09:11,559 no one complained about it because it was a good story. So it's incredibly 122 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:16,559 hard to be objective. I don't believe any reporter is truly objective. I 123 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:18,879 think that's impossible. The things that happened to you in your own life affect 124 00:09:18,879 --> 00:09:22,279 the way you tell stories. How you put things in order in the story 125 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:26,519 affects how the story is perceived. So you try your best. But it 126 00:09:26,519 --> 00:09:30,720 took me a long time to learn that when you cover emotionally, it just 127 00:09:30,799 --> 00:09:35,159 like nine to eleven. Was it possible to be truly objective during that? 128 00:09:35,399 --> 00:09:39,600 No, it wasn't, and I wasn't, and by then I was really 129 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:43,720 experienced, So it's really difficult. Yeah. I love what you just said 130 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:48,279 about the way that you tell a story is affected by how you feel, 131 00:09:48,279 --> 00:09:50,879 because that's exactly what I teach my kids in my ap laying course. And 132 00:09:50,919 --> 00:09:56,200 it's so nice to hear it affirmed from somebody that I'm not just spouting teacherly 133 00:09:56,320 --> 00:10:01,240 beya, It's actually true. It works in the real world. It is 134 00:10:01,279 --> 00:10:05,039 actually true. Do you think your employers would have given you the real estate 135 00:10:05,159 --> 00:10:09,799 to explore those other issues? The things that you're mentioning, Carol, are 136 00:10:09,879 --> 00:10:16,080 really important. How does this guy start out his criminal behavior at age eleven 137 00:10:16,279 --> 00:10:20,600 and end up going into jail, getting out early, reoffending over and over 138 00:10:20,639 --> 00:10:24,440 again. It is a fascinating question about how that happens. Do you think 139 00:10:24,519 --> 00:10:28,039 they would have said, oh, sure, go ahead, put in a 140 00:10:28,039 --> 00:10:33,000 bunch of time on that, because isn't Phyllis really the sympathetic person that we 141 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:35,639 can all identify with. It's there but for the grace of God, go 142 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:41,399 I when you hear her story? Oh yeah, yeah. And I worked 143 00:10:41,399 --> 00:10:43,960 for a very tiny TV station at the time, so they probably would not 144 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:48,519 have allowed the freedom for me to do that. They were concentrating on the 145 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:52,679 fear in the community. How do you keep this from happening to you? 146 00:10:52,759 --> 00:10:54,639 So I did a lot of women defense stories and stuff like that, and 147 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:58,759 then you tried to find Phyllis's friends and her family to talk about it and 148 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:03,480 maybe get an interview with Phyllis. My concentration was all that way, and 149 00:11:03,879 --> 00:11:07,759 the search for evidence to catch this guy go down to the police department and 150 00:11:07,919 --> 00:11:13,039 established sources so that you can find out what's happening and beat everyone else to 151 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:16,360 the punch. So you're right, at that time, in that place, 152 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:20,639 in that station, they would have not said, oh yeah, go find 153 00:11:20,639 --> 00:11:22,840 out about the perpetrator. By that time, I think it was such a 154 00:11:22,879 --> 00:11:28,240 horrible crime that the entire city just wanted just for court us I don't really 155 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:31,840 care about this person. Don't tell me about this person. I just want 156 00:11:31,919 --> 00:11:35,519 him to go away forever. In hindsight that I don't think that was the 157 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:39,799 right choice. As a journalist, we would do that now at a right 158 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:43,360 but there's a and I'll ask you about this, So there's a controversy about 159 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:48,519 that. We've had an incredible dumber of school shootings, and at one point 160 00:11:48,519 --> 00:11:52,480 when I was at CNN, we decided never to use the alleged perpetrator, 161 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:56,639 the alleged shooter's name, right, yes, And we really wouldn't talk about 162 00:11:56,679 --> 00:12:00,759 that person very much. And that always bothered me because to me, you 163 00:12:00,879 --> 00:12:03,679 have to understand and you have to know, and you have to be transparent 164 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:07,919 about what happened in its entirety. And I don't know where the good line 165 00:12:09,039 --> 00:12:11,960 is. So I'll ask you, guys that where do you think that is. 166 00:12:13,399 --> 00:12:16,960 We've both talked about it on the air at Mind of a Murder, 167 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:24,080 because obviously we're coming at this from a victim, friend and family perspective, 168 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:30,000 and we try to be very victim focused. We don't usually identify the offender, 169 00:12:30,279 --> 00:12:33,440 although sometimes once or twice. In other words, you have to be 170 00:12:33,519 --> 00:12:37,320 clear who it is you're talking about, and these days, sadly, what 171 00:12:37,519 --> 00:12:41,559 incident are you discussing, because there's been so many. But we both lean 172 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:48,759 away from any kind of glorification, which we think is a serious problem in 173 00:12:48,799 --> 00:12:52,960 the true crime space. The Washington Post did a cover story a few years 174 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:56,480 ago in the Washington Post magazine about me going to Crime Con, which is 175 00:12:56,480 --> 00:13:01,039 a conference that Kristen and I have attended and spoken at numerous times now. 176 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:05,799 I think there's been five of them. Kristen. Yeah. One of the 177 00:13:05,879 --> 00:13:09,519 things that I found disturbing, and Kristen shares this point of view, and 178 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:13,360 I'll let her speak about it, is that there were people at crime Con. 179 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:18,320 There's five thousand plus fans there who are interested in true crime, consume 180 00:13:18,399 --> 00:13:22,360 a lot of true crime media, as well as reporters and investigators and family 181 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:26,440 members. There's a lot of very interesting people there. The thing we found 182 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:31,279 disturbing was people walking around with T shirts with serial killers faces on them. 183 00:13:31,519 --> 00:13:37,600 So they're, in a sense, they're glorifying Ted Bundy and all of these 184 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:41,759 other sleeves balls who have done terrible things to people, and we think that 185 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:46,679 the focus is in the wrong place. Kristen, what do you think we've 186 00:13:46,759 --> 00:13:50,559 leaned away from too much focus on the offenders. Yeah, no, I 187 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:54,519 agree with that. I remember my very first day at Crime con Almost from 188 00:13:54,559 --> 00:14:00,360 minute one, I was very disturbed and upset by the fact that I past 189 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:05,159 a woman who had ted Bundy's face tattooed on her inner forearm, and it 190 00:14:05,279 --> 00:14:11,039 was like, that's definitely not the reason why we should be here. I 191 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:16,279 do think that we have reached a spot within the true crime space where definitely 192 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:20,720 there is glorification of killers that needs to be stopped. The focus does need 193 00:14:20,799 --> 00:14:24,879 to be on the victims, for sure, Caroly, get your point absolutely 194 00:14:24,919 --> 00:14:30,120 that, like you do have to explore both sides of the story, and 195 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:33,399 if it comes with something like school shooting, and of course that's something that's 196 00:14:33,399 --> 00:14:35,440 on my mind a lot because I am a teacher. Every day of the 197 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:39,720 working year, I go into my school and wonder is this going to be 198 00:14:39,759 --> 00:14:41,759 the day? And so I think it is important to be able to at 199 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:46,639 least acknowledge this was the impetus behind this. But do we need to say 200 00:14:46,639 --> 00:14:50,519 their name. No, not after the first time. And if that person's 201 00:14:50,559 --> 00:14:56,679 story or motivation or justification whatever they think it is, deserves discussion. Maybe 202 00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:58,679 once, but certainly not over and over. I don't want to see books 203 00:14:58,679 --> 00:15:05,159 written about school shooters. When you addressed crime con and told them shared these 204 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:09,320 feelings, what was the reception? Actually, crime con to be frank and 205 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:16,320 we're going back again in September in Orlando. Orlando, Yes, not my 206 00:15:16,399 --> 00:15:20,799 favorite city, not our favorite. They've actually moved in our direction. As 207 00:15:20,799 --> 00:15:24,200 the brother of a murder victim, this is before we did Mind over Murder, 208 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:30,960 I publicly criticized them and all of the true crime conferences for focus that 209 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:35,320 I thought was not appropriate. And I said, and others too, this 210 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:39,000 isn't a Bill Thomas inventioned far from it. I said. The focus of 211 00:15:39,039 --> 00:15:45,200 these conferences needs to be more on the families and the survivors and the people 212 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:50,320 that we've lost. The focus of a true crime conference should also be on 213 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:54,879 the fact that there are two hundred and fifty thousand cold case homicides in the 214 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:58,279 United States. That's a quarter of a million people who have died, all 215 00:15:58,279 --> 00:16:03,840 of whom add family, friends, schoolmates. So if you think about it, 216 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:07,759 millions of people have been directly touched by this level of violence. That's 217 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:12,559 where the focus needs to be. Over the next couple of years, amazing 218 00:16:12,639 --> 00:16:18,159 people like Kim Goldman and Chris Darden and any number of other people that we 219 00:16:18,159 --> 00:16:22,679 were just thrilled to just sit in an auditorium and listen to these people present 220 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:27,919 their point of view as the sister of a murder victim from a super high 221 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:33,639 profile case, obviously, as a prosecutor, as investigators, as forensic experts, 222 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:38,320 that is where the focus needs to be. And they invited a lot 223 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:44,279 more families of murder victims, a lot of more survivors, which is always 224 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:47,960 really cool when you hear about someone that's survived an attack of this sort. 225 00:16:48,039 --> 00:16:52,519 And they shifted the focus. It was really noticeable from we didn't go to 226 00:16:52,559 --> 00:16:56,240 the first time, but we went to the second one, and it was 227 00:16:56,360 --> 00:17:02,000 a really noticeable shift from the second to the and then on forward. So 228 00:17:02,039 --> 00:17:04,680 they did respond, and it wasn't like we were the only ones saying it. 229 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:07,799 We didn't have a podcast at that point, but I talked about it 230 00:17:07,839 --> 00:17:12,839 on other people's podcasts. How disturbing we thought. It was the one example 231 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:18,200 that made the Washington Post that they liked in both of us disliked so intensely. 232 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:23,440 We saw a woman at Crime con who had made a beautiful handmade skirt. 233 00:17:23,519 --> 00:17:27,279 A ton of work had gone into this her skirt from top to bottom, 234 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:32,640 which was clearly handmade and quite lovely, like a work of art. 235 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:37,519 Was all the faces of all of these serial killers, one after another, 236 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:44,960 the mug shots of serial killers, and we were like, really, you've 237 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:51,400 spent who knows how many hours this beautiful skirt. That was just an example. 238 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:53,400 And I don't know this woman's name, and I didn't pick her out 239 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:56,799 of a line app to embarrass her or anything. He's in a prison visiting 240 00:17:56,799 --> 00:18:02,160 a serial killer right now, asking him to her. We've talked about that 241 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:07,000 online. Honestly, God to be kidding, there are people. It's happening 242 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:11,759 now with that moron, Brian Kolberger in suspect in the Idaho four case. 243 00:18:12,279 --> 00:18:18,480 He's getting love letters from women around the country. Are you serious? You 244 00:18:18,519 --> 00:18:22,680 couldn't find another semi good looking guy with a square head that isn't in prison. 245 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:27,240 Come on, and honestly, steering it back just one second to the 246 00:18:27,279 --> 00:18:33,559 example that Bill was using earlier. I would defy anybody who finds Ted Bundy 247 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:37,480 to be more interesting than hearing the story of Kathy Kleiner Rubin one of the 248 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:41,119 women who survived the attack by him. The room. You could have heard 249 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:45,599 a pin drop in that room when she was very bravely and for the first 250 00:18:45,599 --> 00:18:51,480 time publicly telling what had happened to her. That that's the story that you 251 00:18:51,519 --> 00:18:53,839 want. And anybody who's yes, we need another Ted Bundy movie, we 252 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:59,000 need another Ted Bundy documentary. Now you don't you need a Kathy Kleiner Rubin 253 00:18:59,279 --> 00:19:03,880 documentary. She's a rock star in our world. Actually, when I started, 254 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:07,160 when I sat down to write Phyllis's story, I really wanted it to 255 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:12,599 be Phyllis's story, and I wanted her to be present in every episode, 256 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:17,680 right. I wanted her name in there and her actions because to me, 257 00:19:17,799 --> 00:19:22,000 you're right, the heroes of these crimes are actually the survivors, and not 258 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:25,680 only the fact that they survived this violent thing, this horrible thing that happened 259 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:29,559 to them, but that they're living their lives. In Phillis's case, she 260 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:34,160 found a way to go on, be productive, be happy. To me, 261 00:19:34,319 --> 00:19:40,319 that is truly heroic in the face of that kind of intense trauma, 262 00:19:40,559 --> 00:19:44,720 To rise from the ashes like a phoenix, like that's unbelievable, and then 263 00:19:44,799 --> 00:19:48,720 give back and not be bitter right. I don't know that I could do 264 00:19:48,759 --> 00:19:52,240 that. That to me, it's amazing. So I'm so happy to hear 265 00:19:52,279 --> 00:19:55,559 you both say that, and I'm so happy that you do your podcasts, 266 00:19:55,720 --> 00:20:00,680 because that's really what people I don't know need to realize. I think I 267 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:03,799 didn't even watch the Jeffrey dahm Er doc. Like, no, we have, 268 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:07,720 neither one of us now. Eventually, at some point I'll watch it, 269 00:20:07,759 --> 00:20:11,920 although my partner Pamela, I'm sure we'll insist that I watch it on 270 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:17,039 my own. She wouldn't see that stuff. It's repugnant, iterate for us. 271 00:20:17,079 --> 00:20:21,079 What your goals are for your podcast? What do you want people to 272 00:20:21,079 --> 00:20:26,440 get out of it? Other than recognizing the total badassery of Phillis Coddle, 273 00:20:26,599 --> 00:20:29,839 which clearly does need to be recognized. What else would you say your goals 274 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:33,359 are for this? I actually think the badassery is the prime thing, because 275 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:37,559 I think that there is a perception that women who are victims of crime are 276 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:41,559 weak. We're attach because we are weak, or we did something wrong and 277 00:20:41,599 --> 00:20:45,240 it's our fault and if only we had fought back or kicked him in the 278 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:48,160 nuts, and it would have been fine. But that's really not the way 279 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:53,279 the world works. So I really wanted the takeaway to be Phillis Cottle was 280 00:20:53,319 --> 00:21:00,079 a badass. Even though she was carjacked and assaulted in every way possible and 281 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:06,079 blinded, she never acted as a quote unquote stereotypical victim. She didn't sit 282 00:21:06,079 --> 00:21:11,480 in the corner and cry. She became an active, participated participant in solving 283 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:15,200 her case. In fact, the detectives told me that she was a member 284 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:18,880 of the team. And if you just imagine a person reliving their attack over 285 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:22,720 and over again in their brain to remember these tiny details so she could take 286 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:27,200 them to investigators so that they could solve the case. That in itself is 287 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:32,839 an amazing expression of strength. Like I wanted to really show that victims of 288 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:37,400 crimes are strong. I love that, and it's not their fault. And 289 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:41,599 back in the eighties, a lot of women didn't report rape, just as 290 00:21:41,599 --> 00:21:45,079 a lot of women don't report rape today. Somehow, Phyllis was a pioneer 291 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:48,599 in that area because she was one of the few women at that time that 292 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:56,000 decided to go on television and tell everybody what happened to her in graphic terms. 293 00:21:56,680 --> 00:22:00,359 She didn't hold back, and she came to the conclusion like, this 294 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:03,720 is not my fault I blame. It was his problem, not my problem. 295 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,880 And I want all of you to understand what rape is. I want 296 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:12,279 you to understand what he did and why he has to go away forever. 297 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:18,160 I wanted to I don't know. I just wanted to demonstrate to listeners that 298 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:23,759 Phillis, as a victim of these horrible crimes, was always strong and never 299 00:22:23,839 --> 00:22:27,599 weak, and she blamed herself for a time, but then she came to 300 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:33,400 the conclusion that this is bullshit too is an expression of strength. I just 301 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:38,279 wanted people to realize that about Phillis and ultimately about other survivors of crime. 302 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:44,920 You're listening to Mind Over Murder. Will be right back after this word from 303 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:57,640 our sponsors. We're back here at Mind Over Murder. The footage that you're 304 00:22:57,759 --> 00:23:02,680 using, if you will the audio, It comes from a variety of sources. 305 00:23:02,759 --> 00:23:07,519 Did you have difficulty getting the clearances that you wanted to tell the story, 306 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:11,279 because obviously this happened a number of years ago. How did you go 307 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:17,240 about putting it together using new recordings as well as some recordings from back in 308 00:23:17,279 --> 00:23:19,279 the day. Yeah, when I was thinking of writing a book about it, 309 00:23:19,319 --> 00:23:23,880 which was two thousand and four. I I recorded Phyllis just on those 310 00:23:25,079 --> 00:23:29,119 old fashioned micro cassette recorders. Oh yeah, but I never really planned to 311 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:33,039 use them professionally. I just wanted to have them for my notes. So 312 00:23:33,319 --> 00:23:37,839 for whatever reason, I kept those all of those years, which was amazing. 313 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:41,599 Some of them had degraded and I couldn't use them. Some of them 314 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:45,160 survived, so the ones Phyllis's recordings are from two thousand and four, but 315 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:49,519 the rest. I had a friend who's an attorney in Acrid, and he 316 00:23:49,519 --> 00:23:53,559 helped me contact all of these people associated with the case. And none of 317 00:23:53,559 --> 00:24:00,160 them said now. They all said, yes, loved Phyllis Coddell. I 318 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:04,279 can't tell you the charisma that this woman. So it wasn't you. I 319 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:07,079 was going to say, they must have really liked you. It wasn't you 320 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:11,960 know, it was not me. It was definitely Phyllis pH And they want 321 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:15,759 to keep the man who was convicted of the crime in prison. They don't 322 00:24:15,759 --> 00:24:18,559 want him to get out on parole. That's another reason. Everybody stepped forward, 323 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:22,880 but nobody said no. No one said no. It was amazing. 324 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:27,640 Is he up for parole at any point soon? I think in nine years, 325 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:32,680 he will be again. Okay, I can picture you speaking out nine 326 00:24:32,759 --> 00:24:36,359 years from now along with others, but obviously some people will pass on, 327 00:24:36,559 --> 00:24:40,440 so it is important. And Phyllis is gone herself, so she can't speak. 328 00:24:40,559 --> 00:24:45,000 So it's a big reason why her family decided to participate. They want 329 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,599 to keep their mother's memory alive because she was truly amazing. And number two, 330 00:24:48,599 --> 00:24:51,960 they want to keep her wish to keep this guy behind bars, and 331 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,440 this is one way they can do that. Where is he incarcerated now? 332 00:24:55,799 --> 00:25:02,119 In the Ohio Penitentiary. He's been there for thirty nine years. Every ten 333 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:06,039 years he comes up. He was sentenced to two hundred and ninety nine years, 334 00:25:06,079 --> 00:25:10,559 and he was twenty seven when he was convicted, so he's in his 335 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:14,279 sixties now. I still don't get the math here. If this guy is 336 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:18,039 sentenced to two hundred ninety nine years, how in the heck is he up 337 00:25:18,039 --> 00:25:22,319 for parole every ten It doesn't even doe to make any sense. That's what 338 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:26,279 Phyllis's family would say. But yes, every ten years he comes up, 339 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:30,640 and it's been denied every ten years because they've gathered thousands of letters from people, 340 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:37,720 and wow, how do you like the format of the podcast. Do 341 00:25:37,799 --> 00:25:44,680 you feel like the ability to stretch out your storytelling muscles. Does that feel 342 00:25:44,799 --> 00:25:52,960 good? Or is that a challenge? That was so challenging because as a 343 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:57,839 reporter, you're used to writing succinct stories, Like the longest story ever wrote 344 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:02,839 was like three minutes. I didn't thought very much, but mostly I wrote 345 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:08,440 three minute stories. So doing an episode thirteen minutes was really and I really 346 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:14,559 had to expand Let's see, how do I explain this? You have to 347 00:26:14,599 --> 00:26:17,799 set the tone in the mood, and you have to describe the scene and 348 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:22,759 that it went through so many documents so that I wouldn't like very too much 349 00:26:22,839 --> 00:26:25,759 from what the truth actually was. So that took a lot of time. 350 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:30,279 And then the crime itself is so brutal, you have to determine how much 351 00:26:30,279 --> 00:26:33,720 of it to tell and when and how. That was very difficult. That 352 00:26:33,839 --> 00:26:41,240 was really difficult, I can imagine. So as a professional, what would 353 00:26:41,279 --> 00:26:45,240 you say are some of the most important journalistic issues that we need to be 354 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:51,119 focusing on within the true crime space? Now you're here, You're one of 355 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:55,319 us now, and that means our issues are now your issues. What do 356 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:59,039 we need to be focusing on doing differently? Or doing better, or what 357 00:26:59,079 --> 00:27:02,440 do we need to con you're doing that we're doing well already. There are 358 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:06,720 many excellent true crime podcasts out there, including yours, but there are many 359 00:27:07,279 --> 00:27:11,160 not so great true crime podcasts out there that either the hosts read a bunch 360 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:15,200 of newspaper accounts of the crime, read them carefully, and just write a 361 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:19,079 bunch of stuff that's not quite true, or they embellish. It's just wrong. 362 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:26,000 That's not doing your listeners any kind of service. That's just exploiting these 363 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:30,920 victims of crime. To me, I think that podcasters should be very careful 364 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:34,319 in doing their due diligence because right now, and I teach journalism, and 365 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:41,839 I know young people trust podcasters the most for accurate information, for authenticity, 366 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:48,079 and if you want to keep that, we need to do our due diligence. 367 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:52,200 So I would say that's the most important factor to me is really knowing 368 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:56,880 your stuff, really doing it in a responsible way, interviewing guests that have 369 00:27:57,039 --> 00:28:03,000 credibility and know what they're talking about. Trying to feel content because you know 370 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:04,519 it's the last minute, you're going to throw a bunch of crap together and 371 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:08,960 get it. That's just not cool, because that's how you lose viewers, 372 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:14,799 and that's how you lose trust. So for those of us who and I 373 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:18,480 wanted once upon a time, back in the dark ages, I actually wanted 374 00:28:18,519 --> 00:28:21,759 to be a journalist and it never turned out that way, although funnily enough, 375 00:28:21,839 --> 00:28:26,640 look where I am right now. It's for those of us who haven't 376 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:30,119 been trained though in journalism. What are some tips that you have for podcasters 377 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:34,279 and writers who are doing their own research and reporting. What should we be 378 00:28:34,319 --> 00:28:40,759 doing better and what should we not be doing. I think that it's important 379 00:28:40,759 --> 00:28:45,759 to know what a credible source is, Okay, I need I think is 380 00:28:45,799 --> 00:28:49,160 really important. Like just because you read it in some newspaper or some random 381 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:56,200 newspapers somewhere, at least you should find another article to cross or call the 382 00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:00,200 people in the article, and it just takes time. Take your time because 383 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:06,000 those things are really important to cross check credible sources. What else do I 384 00:29:06,039 --> 00:29:07,799 tell my students? I was going to say, this is crash course in 385 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:15,160 journalism. Right. We're getting a semester's worth of good tips here in less 386 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:18,920 than an hour, which is why I'm sitting here taking notes too. The 387 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:22,880 cool thing about podcasting is you can do long form, so you can really 388 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:26,440 get into it. You can really educate people in an entertaining kind of way, 389 00:29:26,519 --> 00:29:30,319 which is amazing. It's something you really can't do in television news because 390 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:34,480 it's just short pieces. I don't know a lot of it's so bad now 391 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,920 on local news. I find it difficult to talk about. But I think 392 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:42,160 that I tell my students get to know a detective or two. If you're 393 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:47,039 writing about crime, get to know someone like I don't know, even a 394 00:29:47,519 --> 00:29:51,920 professor who specializes in some facet of criminal junk. This would be good. 395 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,319 Somebody you can bounce things off. Am I going down the right road? 396 00:29:56,480 --> 00:30:00,279 Am I thinking about this the right way? Because you get so invol avolved 397 00:30:00,319 --> 00:30:03,880 in telling your own story and you fall in love with what you've written, 398 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:07,960 and that's really dangerous. You need that person where you can step back and 399 00:30:07,039 --> 00:30:11,640 say, Carol, I don't know if you're going down the right road. 400 00:30:11,599 --> 00:30:17,960 I think that's really important to be a really good storyteller, especially when you're 401 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:22,680 telling true stories, because you do get lost in your own crap. Right, 402 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:27,039 Yes, you can definitely get lost in your NBS for sure. Those 403 00:30:27,079 --> 00:30:32,440 would be my biggest tips, And don't be afraid to say that you don't 404 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:36,240 know something, don't be afraid. Don't pretend you know when you don't, 405 00:30:36,559 --> 00:30:41,039 because you can't know it all. That's impossible. And we've found too that 406 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:48,880 its real important to develop off air sources and understand that, for instance, 407 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:52,559 some of those experts that you might talk to, they might not be in 408 00:30:52,559 --> 00:30:57,400 a position to comment on the air about a particular incident or a case they're 409 00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:00,640 working. But if you say, look, can we have a conversation that's 410 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:06,480 on background or off the record, can you tell me are we on the 411 00:31:06,599 --> 00:31:10,680 right track here? Are we asking the right questions? Or who should we 412 00:31:10,759 --> 00:31:15,640 talk to? And keep it all on background and learn to respect those boundaries. 413 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,960 I know Kristen gets on her students about this because she's talked about it 414 00:31:19,079 --> 00:31:23,440 on the podcast. We WinCE when we hear things where we think this is 415 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:30,640 just a rip and read from Wikipedia as if Wikipedia is some unassailable source. 416 00:31:30,799 --> 00:31:36,440 Like you said, do your research. It isn't a matter of five minutes 417 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:40,960 before air thinking oh yeah, I guess i'd better learned something about this case 418 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:45,000 we're gonna be talking about at four o'clock. The other thing is you're writing 419 00:31:45,039 --> 00:31:52,720 about real people who've suffered trauma and pain. Don't diss them. You're writing 420 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:56,480 about a real person and something that really happened, and you don't get the 421 00:31:56,559 --> 00:32:01,160 luxury of making stuff up about that or doing shoddy work about that. You're 422 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:07,519 doing a disservice to those people. I think that sometimes storytellers forget the human 423 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:12,960 angle, especially when you're working on a true story. So Wikipedia is not 424 00:32:13,079 --> 00:32:21,960 it. Definitely agree. So, now that you have covered the Phyllis Caudle 425 00:32:22,119 --> 00:32:25,680 case, what other stories do you see yourself telling? Now that you've mentioned 426 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:31,000 the Alison Parker case, that would be awesome because I remember that I went 427 00:32:31,039 --> 00:32:36,519 to college in Roanoke, and so I remember I was very familiar with that 428 00:32:36,559 --> 00:32:40,400 affiliate, and I remember just how absolutely horrified I was when that happened. 429 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:45,720 And I feel like there hasn't been nearly enough coverage of what happened in the 430 00:32:45,759 --> 00:32:47,920 aftermath. I'd love to see you do something about Alison Parker. Is that 431 00:32:49,079 --> 00:32:54,279 like on the document? Maybe that would collaborate. That would be amazing, 432 00:32:54,640 --> 00:33:00,759 all right, you two, It sounds great to me. I got a 433 00:33:00,799 --> 00:33:04,160 whole summer coming up here, let's do something. I would love that. 434 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:07,759 That would be so exciting, all right, what other stories would you like 435 00:33:07,799 --> 00:33:10,680 to tell. We'll work that out, But what else would you like to 436 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:15,599 would you like to tell your listeners. The woman one of the prosecutors that 437 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:17,880 helped me tell Phyllis's story was named Emily Pelfrey, and she used to be 438 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:24,359 a prosecutor in Ohio and she has so many interesting cases. So I'm mining 439 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:30,440 her brain at the moment, and I'm thinking about telling the story from a 440 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:35,519 prosecutor's angle, because you don't hear that often, especially if a prosecutor. 441 00:33:35,759 --> 00:33:38,759 She was prosecuting a case that involved a serial killer, and she said she 442 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:44,240 was pregnant at the time and she didn't want her pregnancy to show because that 443 00:33:44,279 --> 00:33:47,079 would project vulnerability in the courtroom and she needed to be strong. This is 444 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:51,160 one just one story that intrigued me, And she said, I decided to 445 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:54,039 distract from my baby bump. I would wear the most amazing shoes I could 446 00:33:54,039 --> 00:33:59,759 find that when the jury looked at me, they would just notice my shoes. 447 00:34:01,039 --> 00:34:06,079 And she also said she was overly emotional, so that when the family, 448 00:34:06,839 --> 00:34:09,760 the victim's family members took the stand, she would find herself starting to 449 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:14,840 tear up, and she didn't want people to see that either, So there 450 00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:19,559 was all these interesting human elements that went into her preparing that case and how 451 00:34:19,599 --> 00:34:22,440 she tried the case. So I'm thinking of telling a story from that angle 452 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:30,000 from one of them, and telling the story of her investigating the case from 453 00:34:30,039 --> 00:34:37,519 across a tutorial angle and then actually trying it from a human That would be 454 00:34:37,599 --> 00:34:43,400 an amazing story. And I'll throw in I want to watch that television series 455 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:47,960 and I want to see that movie because man, what an incredible intersection of 456 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:53,599 story elements and this is her real life. Yeah, I think that would 457 00:34:53,599 --> 00:34:58,440 be really cool, So I'm working on that. I'm also working on a 458 00:34:58,519 --> 00:35:01,920 partnership with the Project for the Innocent at Loyal and Marymount University. They do 459 00:35:02,039 --> 00:35:07,159 great work in our law school and they have amazing stories to tell because I 460 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:10,119 think that the story normally ends when the person gets out of prison after they've 461 00:35:10,159 --> 00:35:15,440 been in there for thirty years, but like what happens then, So I'd 462 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:19,599 like to tell that story as well. And there are just so many great 463 00:35:19,639 --> 00:35:22,199 stories down there. So those are the things I'm thinking of to do next. 464 00:35:23,079 --> 00:35:29,360 We shouldn't let this opportunity pass without talking a little bit about your former 465 00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:32,840 home CNN. You mentioned at the top of the podcast, they've been in 466 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:38,960 the news just a little lately. And I asked you off the air and 467 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:42,840 I said, I assume you still have friends there, and you said, 468 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:45,239 yes, a lot of friends, including folks that have been there for a 469 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:50,960 number of years. Can they move forward? And what would you do if 470 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:53,800 they hired you as the CEO? I think they should, right, I 471 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:57,760 don't know who you want that job. Oh, I don't know either. 472 00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:02,320 I worked at sand for almost twenty years, and I experienced lots of ups 473 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:06,400 and downs. And there were times when he had no ratings at all, 474 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:08,320 and I lived through those times. And then there were times when we had 475 00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:14,400 great ratings and those were the heydays. Those were fun. So I don't 476 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:19,760 think CNN is dead and gone by any stretch of the imagination. I think 477 00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,920 that people like to talk about CN a lot because it's just become this hot 478 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:27,679 button issue when it comes to all things journalism that I think is unfair. 479 00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:30,519 So Chris Luck did not do a good job, which is why he was 480 00:36:30,559 --> 00:36:37,159 eventually fired. I hope they bring in somebody who is better suited to run 481 00:36:37,159 --> 00:36:40,840 a large organization like CNN in the times we live in today, which are 482 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:45,119 so different from when I started at CN to twenty years ago. I'm not 483 00:36:45,199 --> 00:36:51,159 sure that viewers are interested in seeing a centrist product. I hope I'm wrong, 484 00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:53,559 but I don't see it right now. We live in a world that's 485 00:36:53,599 --> 00:36:59,800 so complicated that I'm not sure that you can present a story that makes everybody 486 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:02,960 happy, because the stories are mostly boring and don't really reflect what's going on 487 00:37:04,039 --> 00:37:07,920 in the world. So I think that CNN is going to have to do 488 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:12,119 some deep soul searching and decide what it wants to be, really wants to 489 00:37:12,199 --> 00:37:15,079 be, what its audience wants it to be. And we have a very 490 00:37:15,119 --> 00:37:19,400 fraught election coming up, and it's got to figure out how to cover that 491 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:23,960 election more effectively than its first. Foray under Chris LT, I'd have to 492 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:29,559 agree they're going to have challenges, And as I said at the beginning, 493 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:31,840 when we were just chatting before we started, I'm not sure I would have 494 00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:36,760 announced, oh, we're tacking to the center. I might have just tried 495 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:38,960 it. The other thing is I think trying to be all things to all 496 00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:45,360 people is completely impossible. Yeah, I do think adherence to the truth is 497 00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:50,159 really important, and I think they should be challenging all of the political figures 498 00:37:50,159 --> 00:37:52,960 that they cover, and they don't just cover politics. Of course, that's 499 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:57,960 actually something they seem to have forgotten about. One of CNN's great strengths was 500 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:04,880 these incredible reporters and producers across the country and around the world. Remember CN 501 00:38:05,079 --> 00:38:09,480 was a go to place whenever there was something really important happening, particularly at 502 00:38:09,519 --> 00:38:14,599 an international location, but nationally as well. They seem to have lost sight 503 00:38:14,639 --> 00:38:17,000 of all of that. I don't think Chrislick was a good choice. The 504 00:38:17,119 --> 00:38:22,800 skill set, though, of someone that can run an organization of that scale 505 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:27,559 and be effective. That's not a long list of people that have that kind 506 00:38:27,559 --> 00:38:30,360 of resume. True, you have four thousand people, many of them were 507 00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:35,199 based on other parts of the world. You have the advertising space. There 508 00:38:35,199 --> 00:38:38,159 are just so many things that you're running a network to take into account besides 509 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:42,840 journalism and the way we do news. So you have all of that, 510 00:38:43,119 --> 00:38:45,760 but I think that journalism is in a precarious state right now. You also 511 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:50,840 have that, so you're dealing with all these issues all at once when everybody 512 00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:54,000 complains about you, and everybody has an opinion about how journalism should be done. 513 00:38:54,039 --> 00:38:58,920 Everybody does, even if they've never done it in their entire lives. 514 00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:01,519 So you have to be the kind of manager that can block out the noise 515 00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:07,840 and have a concrete direction, and you have to communicate that to your staff 516 00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:12,320 journalists or not pushovers. Don't just take the boss's word and you say, 517 00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:15,760 oh, yeah, I'll go do that unless we really respect them and they 518 00:39:15,039 --> 00:39:20,639 prove to us that they have the wherewithal to handle the job. Otherwise they're 519 00:39:20,679 --> 00:39:22,679 going to go do what they want, or the product's going to be like 520 00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:25,199 not what you wanted to be, because they're not going to be putting in 521 00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:29,880 their best effort because they're going to be confused. That was one of the 522 00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:34,039 takeaways from the Atlantic article, which was amazing. I literally couldn't put it 523 00:39:34,079 --> 00:39:37,920 down. I kept reading and reading and thinking, gosh, this is great, 524 00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:40,840 and it's really long, and I didn't realize it was fifteen thousand words 525 00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:45,800 when I said the exercise session with the guy with the pajama bottoms and the 526 00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:51,360 polka dot shirt and he was like making chrislicked. That was bizarre. Giving 527 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:59,039 a reporter that level of access for that long isn't probably a great idea. 528 00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:05,000 It's too Why would you even bring the reporter to your exercise session. Yeah, 529 00:40:05,039 --> 00:40:08,199 you're absolutely right about that. But I think that Chrislick, it seemed 530 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:13,239 so anyway that he was I don't know, he wanted to improve his public 531 00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:17,039 image, and maybe he thought that wouldn't if his public image improved, that 532 00:40:17,039 --> 00:40:21,280 would improve things with the staff. But that's really not the way it works. 533 00:40:21,639 --> 00:40:23,360 Plus, I work for Jeff Zucker. Yeah, I loved him. 534 00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:30,000 I was going to say Zucker had an understanding with the people that worked for 535 00:40:30,079 --> 00:40:34,280 him. I'm not saying everybody loved the guy, but they felt like he 536 00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:40,119 was in their corner and that he really understood how to work with talent and 537 00:40:40,199 --> 00:40:45,440 not a word I care much for, but all of these talented producers and 538 00:40:45,599 --> 00:40:51,000 writers and most importantly the on air reporters. I'll tell you how close he 539 00:40:51,159 --> 00:40:53,480 was. So I had the newsdesk is in the middle of the newsroom. 540 00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:58,519 It's thea New York so I would anchor the news. I could see Jeff 541 00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:01,559 Zucker's office. The news desk was just right across the way, and in 542 00:41:01,599 --> 00:41:06,239 commercial breaks if he noticed and he was watching me, So that told me 543 00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:08,360 like he cared about what I was doing. Yeah, exactly. It meant 544 00:41:08,519 --> 00:41:13,320 a lot. So in breaks, he would sometimes come out of his office 545 00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:15,639 and say, you know what, when this other person comes up, you 546 00:41:15,679 --> 00:41:20,880 probably should ask this see if this like tactic works. And I appreciated that 547 00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:24,639 because most times he was absolutely right. It is difficult to be on the 548 00:41:24,679 --> 00:41:29,679 air for two hours and a live broadcast, especially with the election of twenty 549 00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:34,039 sixteen, when you had to catch inaccuracies in real time. That's really hard 550 00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:40,960 because for a brief moment, your brain says it's quite true, and then 551 00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:45,719 you have to summon the information, the true information like that right, everybody 552 00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:50,159 thinks the producer like feeds us info, but they can't even keep up. 553 00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:55,119 So it was comforting to have Jeff Zucker right there. I'm picturing Aaron Sorkin's 554 00:41:55,159 --> 00:42:02,920 the news room and super imposing your face that's happening, because that sounds exactly 555 00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:07,440 like what they did on the episodes where they covered the election. That's my 556 00:42:07,599 --> 00:42:12,760 only frame of reference. That's right. At the moment, Stuck was so 557 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,079 out there, You're like, am I the crazy one? I know? 558 00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:20,559 So I don't know. Jeff Sucker was very connected to the staff and not 559 00:42:20,599 --> 00:42:23,079 just talent, but you're right, the producers. He had a game plan 560 00:42:23,199 --> 00:42:29,239 every morning you understood what direction the network was going that particular day. We 561 00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:32,079 were all on board because it was brilliant most times. I know that CEN 562 00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:36,559 did a lot of things wrong with the election of twenty sixteen, but it 563 00:42:36,599 --> 00:42:39,119 did try to write itself. And I think that people forget that was an 564 00:42:39,119 --> 00:42:44,000 election like no other, and this selection coming up will be an election like 565 00:42:44,159 --> 00:42:49,880 no other. It'll just be weird in many respects and disturbing in many respects. 566 00:42:50,119 --> 00:42:52,039 So you're figuring out as a news manager how to cover it in real 567 00:42:52,079 --> 00:42:54,960 time. It's not like you get a bunch of time to sit around with 568 00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:59,719 your pals and say, huh, how should we cover this weird shit. 569 00:43:00,039 --> 00:43:06,480 It's happening. She happens in real time, and you want to get it 570 00:43:06,559 --> 00:43:09,280 right, and sometimes you do and sometimes you don't because news managers are human 571 00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:13,480 too. But you want a news manager who gets it right most of the 572 00:43:13,559 --> 00:43:16,320 time in the moment, and that was not Chris linked. No, it's 573 00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:22,599 going to be a big shoes to fill, it really is. So I 574 00:43:22,679 --> 00:43:27,480 gather then you don't miss getting up at three o'clock in the morning or what 575 00:43:28,599 --> 00:43:32,360 the air. I thought that forevermore I would wake up at two thirty in 576 00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:37,039 the morning. But that's not true because the day I left CN, I 577 00:43:37,079 --> 00:43:45,519 slept until ten. My body snapped right back to normal. Yeah. I 578 00:43:45,599 --> 00:43:47,840 wake up at four thirty every morning so that I can get ready and then 579 00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:52,199 I've got a half hour drive to school. And as soon as I don't 580 00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:54,360 have to set that alarm for the summer, I will do exactly the same 581 00:43:54,360 --> 00:44:01,480 thing ten o'clock in the morning. Don't call me before then. Do funny 582 00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:06,039 how you can like actually function with brain fog, right, because I'm sure 583 00:44:06,079 --> 00:44:08,000 you have brain fog waking up at four thirty in the morning. Yes, 584 00:44:08,119 --> 00:44:13,039 And honestly, for the first time ever this morning, and this is I'm 585 00:44:13,079 --> 00:44:15,880 uber organized, but will tell you that, for the first time ever, 586 00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:19,239 I actually managed to walk out of my house without my lunch this morning. 587 00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:22,239 And it wasn't until I got to school thirty minutes later and I realized, 588 00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:27,320 oh my god, I don't have anything to eat for today. I've never 589 00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:30,880 had that happen before. But the end of year teacher tired brain fog is 590 00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:36,840 so real, and it's like we're on it. Can I just say teachers 591 00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:42,639 are amazing, thank you? Now when they're under attack from so many different 592 00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:46,480 places. I think that it's difficult enough to teach, but to deal with 593 00:44:46,559 --> 00:44:50,840 all the other stuff that's going on right now, and you're hanging in there 594 00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:54,360 and continuing to do it in care about your students. That's amazing. Thank 595 00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:59,760 you. I appreciate that. Carol. Tell our listeners where they can tune 596 00:45:00,039 --> 00:45:06,039 into your podcast. You can catch Carol Costello Presents blind Rage wherever you get 597 00:45:06,079 --> 00:45:09,559 your podcasts. I had just started a new Facebook page, Facebook dot com 598 00:45:09,559 --> 00:45:15,599 slash Carol Lmu. We can start a conversation there that would be terrific or 599 00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:19,840 Instagram, and I think it's just it at Carol Costello blind Rage. You 600 00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:22,639 can get it wherever you get your podcasts, and please listen because I want 601 00:45:22,639 --> 00:45:27,519 to do the greatest service I can to Philli Scoddle because she was chewing an 602 00:45:27,559 --> 00:45:30,639 amazing woman and her story has to be shared, and we will put links 603 00:45:30,639 --> 00:45:34,519 to all of that in our show notes. Carol, thank you so much 604 00:45:34,559 --> 00:45:37,719 for joining us today, thank you for having me, and thank you for 605 00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:40,239 doing what you do that's going to do it for this episode of mind Over 606 00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:53,559 Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next time mind 607 00:45:53,599 --> 00:46:00,639 Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive 608 00:46:00,679 --> 00:46:06,039 producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 609 00:46:06,639 --> 00:46:10,079 Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod. Mind Over Murder is distributed in 610 00:46:10,159 --> 00:46:15,079 partnership with Coral Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, 611 00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:20,639 or Instagram. You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on 612 00:46:20,639 --> 00:46:24,320 Facebook, and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas. 613 00:46:24,559 --> 00:47:06,039 Five six. Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.