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Here the thinking atheist. It's not
a person, it's a symbol, an

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idea. The population of atheist in
this country is going through the rule,

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rejecting faith, pursuing knowledge, challenging
the sacred. If I tell the truth,

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it's because I tell the truth,
not because I put my hand on

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a book and made a wish and
working together for a more rational world.

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Take the risk of thinking. Feel
so much more happiness, truth, beauty,

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and wisdom will come to you that
way. Assume nothing, question everything,

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and start thinking. This is the
Thinking Atheist podcast, hosted by Seth

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Andrews. I'll start the show with
a little bit of a confashion. I

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guess confessions not really the word,
but and maybe you can relate. I

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have just had a case of sadness
lately. You ever feel just melancholy kind

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of modeling sad and you can't really
pinpoint why. And I want to be

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careful here because you know, I
really got to be careful. So there

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are many, I think legitimate instances
where people who feel sad or depressed or

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overwhelmed about something and genuinely need support
will reach out on whatever platform they can,

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often social media, and they're looking
for someone to kind of lift them

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up. You know, Hey,
we've all helped a friend through a difficult

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time. I think that's totally legitimate, so I'm not trying to in any

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way diminish that. But we also
know people who are just still a little

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bit too performative, and it happens
a little bit too often, so you

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log on. This is often known
as vague booking, where they don't give

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any specific details, but it sounds
very Shakespearean. You know. I wish

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certain people whom I will not name, would not be so toxic about issue

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X, which I will not detail, and then go talk about you behind

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your back to other people who I
will not specify. Feeling sad, please

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send good vibes. Okay. Well, on the surface, okay, But

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when you see a lot of that
stuff, it does two things, in

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my humble opinion. The first thing
is you become the boy who cried wolf

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or the girl or whoever who cried
wolf. Right, there's so much of

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it that people stop listening. It
becomes a car alarm that people tune out

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and they're like, oh, well, that person happens to live at the

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intersection of mellow and drama, right, Melo drama And the second thing it

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does is I think it adds a
burden to the lives of other people who

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are going through their own struggles,
and we don't often think about it in

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that way. I've been working on
it myself, where if you go and

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you take the weight on your shoulders, sometimes I think it helps to have

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that weight shared with loved ones,
with people who care about you, But

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sometimes it also adds the burden to
them in their already burdened lives, and

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I think we have to be a
good steward of that. There's so many

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gears in this machine, and I
worry someone's going to harvest SoundBite. They're

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going to quote mine and say that
Seth doesn't care about people experiencing hardship who

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reach out for help and support.
Hell, that's probably what I'm doing right

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now. If nothing else, I'm
just venting expressing. But I've just been

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going through a moment of melancholy.
It might have something to do with the

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change of the seasons. Do you
feel that when you come out of wintertime

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and head into spring. Is spring
fever a legitimate thing? And I've heard

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that like spring fever means that you
feel more tired, you know your blood

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is thickened because of the cold weather, is what we've always heard, and

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it takes some time to navigate through
that. I wake up, I've been

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waking up three in the morning.
I just stare at the ceiling and I've

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just been overwhelmed at all of the
craziness and the hate and the bigotry and

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the divisiveness and the problems. And
I don't know why. You know,

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it's the difference, I think between
reflection and rumination, because I think reflection

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is critical. We have to be
able to reflect on the good and the

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bad. But then sometimes we slip
into rumination. We're just wallowing, right,

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We're wallowing in it, and that
becomes really problematic. And I struggle

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sometimes with that when I read the
headlines and I see the actions of the

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theocrats and the zealots, and the
Christian nationalist and the white supremacists and the

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people who so gleefully want to splinter
us into these little tribes of bigotry,

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when the truth is, we could
all do so much if we just saw

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the humanity in each other. I'm
sitting across from some friends. I know

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there's some who would be like,
well, why would you be friends with

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those people. But they are evangelical
or at least casual Christian Republican conservative types.

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They go to church. I know
more about the Bible than they do

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by far, but they are casual
cultural Christians, and they vote are Republican

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across the board. And they were
talking about something I think, and there

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may been a jab at the Libs
or the liberals somewhere at the table,

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and I, in that moment,
had a tremendous feeling of isolation and a

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loneness. I just look at them
and I want the lightbulb of epiphany of

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humanity to go off in their heads. There are some people who get so

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mad at me when I talk about
my values as a humanist and they're like,

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well, are you host of the
thinking atheist show? Or are you

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host of the liberal show. It's
all equally bad. It's all tainted.

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I'm just going to make a false
equivalence claim and walk out the door and

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look down my nose from my superior
perch at all the rest of you who

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are just sheepl Now you participate in
the process because you think it matters.

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No. No, I am neither
conservative nor liberal. I am I am

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outside it all, well, aren't
you special? I think that's just a

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position of privilege or to cop out. Who in the world could look at

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the two main political forces held the
two main cultural forces in the United States

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and decide that they're equal. Oh, you can do that. I'm sitting

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across from people I care about,
and I wrestle with the fact that I

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love them, and I genuinely do, and I crave their friendship, and

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we have a lot that we really
enjoy. And then I think the jab

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at the Democrats means you are what
in opposition to so many of my values.

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You don't just think differently, but
you may be working to defeat the

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very causes that I hold dear.
Your party is working to co op the

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whole country to make it church theocracy, not democracy, and everybody who's not

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some flavor of christian becomes a second
class citizen. That includes me. You're

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at war with LGBT people talk about
second class citizens. They can be denied

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service based on your personal convictions,
and you will find this the moral position

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as you treat humans as in some
ways in human. You're part of a

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mechanism that treats the United States like
it's better than the rest of the world,

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as if we have a monopoly on
goodness and freedom. What we're better

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because we were born inside these subjectively
drawn boarders. Fly the flag, handover

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heart, say the pledge. In
fact, you are forced to say the

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pledge of allegiance in the name of
freedom. I think children today should be

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wired to say a freedom oath.
People say this without any sense of irony.

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Yeah, they must be mandated to
say they love their country. This

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almost sounds like the Christian Bible commanded
to love God. How do you command

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someone to experience and feel genuine love
for someone or something else? How does

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that work? Exactly? My buddy
Dave Warnock, who runs the Dying Out

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Loud websites, he continues to do
what he does as an activist, knowing

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that his body is on the decline. He has already been planning his own

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exits, right, I mean he
thinks in those terms. He says,

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I have a ls there is no
cure. What will the final days of

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my life be? And the Republican
Party believes that end of life decisions,

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Well, that's God's thing. Only
God can decide. My father died of

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pulmonary fibrosis. The scar tissue in
his lungs caused him to increasingly heave and

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gasp and heave and gasp, And
so they bring in the oxygen machine,

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and when it can't keep up,
they bring in a bigger oxygen machine,

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and when that machine can't keep up, they jack him up with morphine so

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at least he won't panic while he's
writhing in his bed. This goes on

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four days. He finally gives out
at two o'clock in the morning, and

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my family thanks Jesus that he died
in the night as we prayed, as

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if he had just sort of peacefully
gone to be with the Lord. There

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is no concept, there is no
notion that my father had he wanted it,

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and I know he didn't because he
was a devout Christian, But you

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know, he had the right to
go with dignity. He knew there was

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no way out. Imagine if he
had opened his mind and heart to the

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possibility that he could say goodbye at
the moment of his choosing and he could

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peacefully fall asleep before his body turned
into a suffocating, writhing nightmare. And

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who is standing against that right in
the name of God. It's a political

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party, and it's not the liberals. It's not the Democrats, it's those

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bible banging ours who is in love
with guns? Four hundred million guns in

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this country And when I say how
many more guns do you need for us

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to be safe, they look at
me and say, well, Seth is

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anti gun. Well that's an oversimplification
because I do have a couple of firearms

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that I keep in a safe and
occasionally target shoot. But my guns aren't

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part of my identity. It was
John Stewart on his television show. He

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was doing an interview a few weeks
back with Oklahoma State Senator Nathan Dom and

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Nathan Dom, is, you know, ringing the bell about the Second Amendments

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and how we need to deregulate access
to guns in the name of protection and

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freedom. And John Stewart looks at
him and says, well, at what

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point, you know, with four
hundred more firearms than citizens in this country,

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at what point do we pass that
bar? When do we become safe?

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Like? When did we get there? How many do you need?

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And the guy totally vapor locks,
you know, I mean, I got

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people waving their guns in this town
when they passed open carry in the state

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of Oklahoma. I shit you not. There was a guy who packed on

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a two gun holster, just like
the Old West. He had a gun

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on each hip, and just to
show how free he was, started walking

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around the courthouse buildings downtown. He
has decided, I'm going to go show

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everybody how damn free I am.
Here's madou guns. I'm gonna go walk

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around with my two barrels in full
display and show everybody what freedom really is.

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Which party sees more of that insanity? I think it's the Republicans,

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don't you Who's dragging their bibles into
school board meetings, who's trying to ban

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the books because God? Who's infecting
secular city council meetings by insisting that the

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invocation slash prayers are all supposed to
be Christian and nothing else. Who opposes

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climate change science and clean energy policies
or even proposals, because wouldn't it be

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not used to build a better,
cleaner, safer, less polluted world.

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I mean, even if you didn't
believe that climate change was an increasing problem,

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just the notion that we would do
better, that we would pollute less,

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that we would contaminate less, that
we would pursue the cleanest and most

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efficient and most protective versions of what
we do. I mean, how is

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that even controversial? And who's against
it? It's over here one particular party

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talking about how it'll be a cold
day in hell before I drive one of

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them liberal cars. Part of that
conversation includes the proliferation, or the rise,

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at least of the electric vehicles.
We can get into lithium battery technology

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and disposal and waste. These are
necessary and interesting conversations, but the whole

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idea for them is black smoke coming
out of the tailpipe of my truck is

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a symbol of freedom. They lean
into the Old Testament's eye for an eye,

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versus to support the death penalty,
which I've come to see as barbaric,

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inappropriately applied, usually against people of
color and the poor, those who

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can't afford proper representation. We've seen
so many instances of injustice reversals, new

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evidence came to light. And beyond
all of that, how about the economics

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of it. It's actually more expensive
to put somebody on death row than it

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is to imprison them for life.
You would think the capitalists would see that

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and say, hm, that makes
the latest dance no no, And you

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know which party wants to kill the
killers. It's the Republicans. Do not

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tell me, it's not the Democrats
on the Supreme Court that are planting their

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dominionist flags in the uteruses of one
hundred and sixty six million women. You'd

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fold your arms all you want,
and you can say, well, it's

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all equally bad, all you want. None of that makes what you say

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not bullshit. And here I am. I'm sitting at a table and Strawberry

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Red, Oklahoma, once again,
fully aware that I'm alone, almost alone

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as far as my knowledge. I'm
alone in my values and what I'm fighting

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for. And am I sitting at
the table with people who are working against

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me? And how is that work? And do I draw the hard line?

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Do I end the friendship? Do
I pound on the table and say

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what the hell is wrong with you
people? Do I try to humanize my

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own value system, my own person
and position in an attempt to try to

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bring their walls down so that we
can have mind changing, opinion changing conversations

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about the things that matter. All
I know is, at the end of

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the day, I leave and I
just feel sad. I'm struck by how

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much energy, gleeful energy is position
towards not sharing the world equally with other

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people, and often taking advantage of
other people. How do we work the

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system? If somebody's smart enough to
work the system, maybe the system deserves

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to be worked. And if you're
taking advantage of well, you know,

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that's kind of your problem for being
so vulnerable. And here's yet another reason

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why that is a sensitive nerve.
I got a call from my CPA.

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It is tax season in the United
States, and isn't that always a joy?

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Despite my occasional frustrations with the bureaucracy
and inefficiency and waste that we have

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all seen our tax dollars go to, I think, most recently the one

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on my mind all the bank bailouts. Right, I get it. I'm

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part of a society. My taxes
fund the support structure for that society,

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and I totally get that. So
tax season comes around, I bite the

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bullets, I write the check,
and I get a call from my CPA

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who says, well, I filed
your taxes for twenty twenty two and those

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taxes were rejected by the Internal Revenue
Service. Wait a minute, why did

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the IRS reject my taxes? Well, seth their record, say that you

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have already filed. Well, what's
that about, Seth. You have been

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the victim of identity theft. By
the way, I think this may be

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the first time in history that anybody
has ever purposefully wanted to be me.

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So apparently this is a major majour, major problem, a scam that has

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been going on increasingly since twenty fifteen. Somebody steals your social right, your

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Social Security number, and they file
taxes under your name, and they list

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a ton of dependence and those dependents
bring about a tax credit which produces a

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refund check that that scammer receives at
the false address that they put on the

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form, and then they go and
launder the money through bitcoin. This is

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how it was explained to me,
and the idea, I guess is is

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that it's untraceable. This is a
billions of dollars scam that I was just

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made aware of because yeah, now
it happened to me, and this is

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fun. Turns out that it'll be
six to nine months before the IRS even

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opens the envelope containing my affidavit of
identity theft and starts the case. So

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the whole time I'm waiting on them
to investigate, I remain unprotected for twenty

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00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:21,039
twenty three, meaning that the scammer
might be able to do it again before

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anyone notices. And lo and behold, I end up on a hamster wheel

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that I may not get off of
four years. So it's been that kind

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of month. I guess it's all
first world problems when you look at it,

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but it's still frustrating, and I
do I think, what if the

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people who spend all this time scamming
other people and trying to grift and take

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advantage and work the system in these
illegal and immoral ways, what if they

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committed themselves to doing it right,
playing by their rules, building, constructing,

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helping, being good. Imagine what
we might accomplish as a species,

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say goodbye to corruption and abuse and
war, and we could all hold hands

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and advance and evolve as the human
condition together. And of course you and

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I know that as long as there
is an opportunity, as long as there

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is a scam, as long as
there is easy money, and as long

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as there are awful people, that
dream will always remain a dream. And

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I think it's just sad, and
I sometimes feel overwhelmed by it. Do

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you ever feel overwhelmed? You wonder
sometimes are there more bad people than good

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people? I don't think so,
but I don't always feel so. And

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I have to be cognizant of the
difference. Right, Instead of ruminating,

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00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:56,400
I must objectively as best I can, reflect and be honest about what's really

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going on. I don't know.
That's a little window into my life.

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I mean to burden you, but
it's you know, some people I think

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are interested in what informs the attitude
of the host, and that's kind of

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where I'm at. I'm interested in
where you are at. My copywriter would

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00:22:15,759 --> 00:22:19,680
kill me for saying that sentence in
that way, like ending with the preposition

241
00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:23,400
where you are at? But I
mean where you're at? Where are you

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00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:30,000
at right now? As we'd go
to the phones to find out? Six?

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00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:33,839
One two? Hi? Who's this? Hi? This is Manuela,

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00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:37,160
Manuela. Did I say it right? Yes? You did? Thank you

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00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:41,559
so much for calling. What's on
your mind? Well, forgive me a

246
00:22:41,559 --> 00:22:44,880
bit nervous. English is not my
first language, so forgive you for any

247
00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:51,039
mistakes doing great. I'm from Europe
and something that I noticed since I moved

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to the United States is how much
Americans seem to hate children. For example,

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like you can't bring them public without
people going like, k that thing

250
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:08,119
shut up with literally saying the thing
and complaining about people bringing their children in

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public, not like them going you
know, climbing up the shelves and Walmart

252
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or something, just normal kids who
are making noise and people are losing their

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little mind over it. And yeah, I was just wondering. For a

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00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:26,240
country that's so much about family values, it sounds like they hate children a

255
00:23:26,279 --> 00:23:30,240
lot. Well, it's interesting.
It has not been my experience. I

256
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:33,200
don't have any kids of my own, but usually in my experience, unless

257
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they are unruly and banging around and
screaming and carrying on, and somebody takes

258
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:42,119
them into a movie theater or you
know, something like the library, I

259
00:23:42,279 --> 00:23:47,920
haven't in my own life as an
American scene that, but obviously it has

260
00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:52,319
been your experience, and I'm sorry
that it has been. Yeah, it

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00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:56,559
has literally people saying that you shouldn't
bring children into a restaurant because they paid

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00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:00,799
to eat their dinner in peace and
quiet. And if that thing can shut

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00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:04,279
up and leave it at home,
well, I'm very sorry that that has

264
00:24:04,319 --> 00:24:07,440
happened to you. Just know that
there are some people, even those who

265
00:24:07,519 --> 00:24:11,920
are child free like me, who
you know, unless the kids banging my

266
00:24:12,039 --> 00:24:17,079
seat on an airplane are screaming in
my ear somewhere. I mean, I'm

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00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:19,599
easy, I'm good with it,
so people like me exist, okay,

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00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:25,160
man willa, Okay. I mean, I'll be the first to admit that

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there are some of us who do
better and some who do not do better.

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When it comes to a lot of
noise created by children, I'm yeah,

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I'm good, like I'm really fine. I think, you know,

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00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:41,200
family should be able to go out
and spend family time together. I do

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00:24:41,319 --> 00:24:47,400
have a problem when unruly kids start
to spoil the experience for other people.

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00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:52,240
I don't think that's what my collar
was necessarily talking about. I am child

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free, like I never had kids. Natalie's got a couple of grown children

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who are beautiful. They are my
family and I love them with all my

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heart. But I myself never had
that instinct, and in a highly religious

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00:25:04,559 --> 00:25:11,559
family, it's race a lot of
people's eyebrows. I was twenty two when

279
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:15,559
I started my first marriage of eighteen
years. I'm just a kid. I'm

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00:25:15,599 --> 00:25:21,440
twenty two, But at that moment
I had no desire to be a parent,

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and my then wife had no desire
to be a parent. And we

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00:25:26,039 --> 00:25:30,039
said, so, we're not interested
in having kids, and everybody around this

283
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:34,880
patted us on the head and said, oh, one day, one day,

284
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:38,119
you're gonna wake up and you're just
gonna want to have a little bundle

285
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:42,400
of joy and you're gonna be ready
to be a mother and father. Okay,

286
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:48,200
well, if that day comes,
we'll let you know. So a

287
00:25:48,319 --> 00:25:53,640
year passed, Oh one day,
you're still young. Three years past,

288
00:25:53,920 --> 00:26:00,000
five years past, seven years passed, and I noticed that everybody around me

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00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:06,640
started to get kind of quiet,
and I felt it's nothing that they said.

290
00:26:06,799 --> 00:26:12,839
I felt this attitude that they thought
I was just selfish. You're just

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00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:17,599
all about yourself. Why don't you
want to have kids? I mean,

292
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:19,160
what is that about? You just
want to come and go as you please.

293
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:23,559
You're not interested in other people.
And here's the fun one seth hate

294
00:26:23,799 --> 00:26:32,440
children. I'm sorry, I hate
children. Where did that come from?

295
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:36,960
So much of these attitudes, especially
in religion, rooted in the Bible,

296
00:26:37,079 --> 00:26:44,000
be fruitful and multiply, you're supposed
to go and have children, And there's

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00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,319
this attitude that if you don't have
kids, or something wrong with you.

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00:26:48,319 --> 00:26:52,359
And I fielded that for a long, long time, and even now I

299
00:26:52,759 --> 00:26:56,359
sense it from some people who are
just a little bit self conscious. I

300
00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:00,720
don't know, maybe they secretly envy
the fact that somebody calls me at the

301
00:27:00,799 --> 00:27:04,920
last second because they need someone to
fill in on a tennis match. I

302
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:08,599
can just leave, all right,
I'll be there in twenty two minutes.

303
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:14,279
Hey, do you feel like going
out tonight? Let's just leave and go

304
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:18,079
do that. Would you like to
spend a weekend with your brother in Kansas

305
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:22,680
City. It's Friday afternoon. We
could be there by nine. Let's grab

306
00:27:22,759 --> 00:27:25,559
the dogs, hop in the car. We got nothing else to do.

307
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:32,400
That kind of freedom. I do
wonder if some people, the self conscious

308
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:37,160
people, maybe secretly envy that.
But I'll admit there are certain joys in

309
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:41,400
my life that I know I will
never get. I'll never experience the birth

310
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:45,640
of a baby in the delivery room. I'll never experience the joy of watching

311
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,519
that child grow. I'll never be
there for the first steps, the first

312
00:27:48,599 --> 00:27:55,960
day at school, being involved in
sports or band or the arts or whatever,

313
00:27:56,079 --> 00:28:00,119
and being that parents in the audience
cheering on my child, the graduation,

314
00:28:00,279 --> 00:28:04,079
seeing the child grow to become an
adult and start a family of their

315
00:28:04,079 --> 00:28:10,680
own, and then grandchildren. I
understand there are certain types of love,

316
00:28:10,799 --> 00:28:18,160
there are certain experiences, beautiful experiences
that I myself will never get. But

317
00:28:18,319 --> 00:28:22,799
while other people lament that, for
me, I simply want to look them

318
00:28:22,799 --> 00:28:26,799
in the eye and say it's okay. I've come to terms with it,

319
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:30,680
because for me, the parental gene
has just never been there. And I

320
00:28:30,759 --> 00:28:37,400
just don't think you have kids because
you're supposed to, because the Bible tells

321
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:42,160
you too, because mom and Dad
want grandchildren, or because you're worried that

322
00:28:42,359 --> 00:28:51,799
person X is gonna think you're selfish, Like your expectations really should have no

323
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:56,200
effect on whether or not I decide
to bring a human being into the world

324
00:28:56,240 --> 00:29:03,400
and make a lifelong commitment to that
person. I just I just never had

325
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:07,359
it. Yeah, I just never
got there. I don't hate kids.

326
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:12,279
I'm not anti family, and I'm
not one of those Americans that this caller

327
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:18,480
experienced who thinks everything in public should
be an adult's only experience. I mean,

328
00:29:18,519 --> 00:29:22,359
and you know, unless it's a
rare designated spot, you know,

329
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:29,680
if you're at Applebee's, I don't
know. I'm just rambling. I've got

330
00:29:29,759 --> 00:29:33,920
nine one nine. Tell me your
name? Donovan, Donovan what's on your

331
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:40,279
mind? That's kind of wanted to
talk a little bit about autism and assism

332
00:29:40,319 --> 00:29:44,759
because one of those things that I
can discovered in my own discovery over the

333
00:29:44,839 --> 00:29:48,079
last year has been the autistic has
an increased chance of being an atheist.

334
00:29:49,279 --> 00:29:56,799
Is it the filtering of emotion in
different ways that someone autistic might experience has

335
00:29:57,039 --> 00:30:03,119
made them less susceptible to the be
oeriential Personally from my own perspective of an

336
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:08,799
autistic person myself, I think it's
having a more analytical mind giving me the

337
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:14,759
question even when I was raised as
a Christian. Well, it's interesting.

338
00:30:14,799 --> 00:30:19,720
I don't know either way. It's
highly possible that somebody who is more analytical

339
00:30:21,559 --> 00:30:26,960
will reject more to be experiential and
add two plus two and come up with

340
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,880
four. I mean, it's very
possible, certainly. Yeah. Part of

341
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,839
the reason why the kind of comes
up to my mind as well as like

342
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:41,440
both being autistic and being awesome asis
kind of been an intersection that I've been

343
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:45,119
trying to figure out on how they
interact with each other because for both of

344
00:30:45,119 --> 00:30:52,000
them, or I'm normal passing to
most people, So it makes me wonder,

345
00:30:52,079 --> 00:30:55,920
like, especially like with me taking
on a social devience class of semester,

346
00:30:56,039 --> 00:31:00,920
like how does that affect my role
in society? Are questions that are

347
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:07,359
beyond me. Once again, I'm
not an expert in mental health or autism.

348
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:11,440
But what you've done is is I
think you've given those of us who

349
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:15,200
are listening to your story something to
talk about, to be able to exchange

350
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:18,279
ideas on the subject. And I
would encourage our listeners to do so if

351
00:31:18,319 --> 00:31:22,519
maybe you've made that connection, or
you have a mental health resource, or

352
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:26,839
you you've done the homework on it's
the common section is all yours, and

353
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:30,599
we'll come back and review and see
what you've come up with. I appreciate

354
00:31:30,599 --> 00:31:33,000
the call very much. Thanks for
giving us something that you want to both

355
00:31:33,079 --> 00:31:40,200
today. All right, see your
learning Emily at seven five seven Are you

356
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:44,519
there? Yeah? Well, first
I wanted to say thank you for talking

357
00:31:44,559 --> 00:31:49,160
about childless childlessness by choice. I
think it's something that I'm really glad that

358
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:55,839
we're finally talking about. So the
reason that I called was I wanted to

359
00:31:56,279 --> 00:32:00,960
from your perspective, see does it
ever change when someone or that feeling that

360
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:07,680
you have inside when someone that you've
known from the former you says, oh,

361
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:10,160
I hear that you have a church
problem or a God problem, and

362
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:19,200
that you know that your family kind
of have a distance. There this feeling

363
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:25,319
of wanting to just have defensiveness kind
of ever dissipate. Well, I think

364
00:32:25,359 --> 00:32:30,279
that's specific to you. You know, I can't tell you how you would

365
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:36,400
feel about someone who is offering up
a kind of I don't know a rationalization

366
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,440
as to why you reject their faith. You must be the one to determine

367
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:45,039
how you feel, what you feel, are those feelings valid? What do

368
00:32:45,079 --> 00:32:47,880
you do about those feelings? So
I can't really speak to that. I

369
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:52,559
do know that perceptions can change.
I think relationships are always in a state

370
00:32:52,599 --> 00:32:59,079
of evolution or de evolution. And
I think you know you've set your boundaries

371
00:32:59,079 --> 00:33:02,279
and decide how much you're willing to
put up with and if someone's love is

372
00:33:02,279 --> 00:33:07,400
conditional, that's information you can use
to make the decision. Okay, okay,

373
00:33:07,559 --> 00:33:15,920
thanks Emily, hang in there.
I think Kevin at eight five zero

374
00:33:15,119 --> 00:33:20,400
high are you there? Seth good
afternoon or a good morning, whatever it

375
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:22,680
is in your neck of the whatever. I don't even have a clock in

376
00:33:22,839 --> 00:33:27,759
my office. Just what's on your
mind? Brother? Well, first and

377
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:31,000
foremost, I just wanted to pay
a compliment and just tell you you're just

378
00:33:31,039 --> 00:33:34,920
such a pro my friend. You
really are. Thank you. Yeah,

379
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:38,960
I mean, you know, your
heart and you're just how genuine you are

380
00:33:39,039 --> 00:33:43,200
comes across in spade and everything that
you do, and I just wanted to

381
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,279
give you a heads up on that
on how I feel. No, thank

382
00:33:45,319 --> 00:33:49,079
you, man, I appreciate the
kind words means a lot, and just

383
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:52,799
in general, you know, I
it's kind of an interesting experience to be

384
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:55,519
talking to you because you're one of
the guys that because I guess it is

385
00:33:55,519 --> 00:34:00,640
about three years now that I don't
know if you call it deconversion or whatever,

386
00:34:00,759 --> 00:34:05,200
I claimed to be a Christian,
and you know, I was driving

387
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:07,319
I lived in a van for three
and a half years, and I was

388
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:12,960
driving down the road listening to you
Tube and stumbled upon a Christopher Hitchens video

389
00:34:13,079 --> 00:34:15,960
I think it was he was debating
Frank Turik, and I went into that,

390
00:34:16,599 --> 00:34:19,960
I think it was an hour and
a half and I went into listening

391
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:23,519
to that with a bias that the
theist was going to kick the atheist ass.

392
00:34:23,599 --> 00:34:25,760
And at the end of it,
I said, oh my gosh,

393
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:32,159
I have a terrible problem on you
know, I because I was always really

394
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:37,719
uncomfortable with so much, so many
of the components of faith and belief and

395
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:39,480
all that. I mean, it
just never made sense to me that I

396
00:34:39,559 --> 00:34:44,159
was taken care of and that there
were so many people that, you know,

397
00:34:44,199 --> 00:34:46,800
their basic crime was being born in
the wrong place, you know,

398
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:52,119
and they were you know, kids
starving to death. And here was this

399
00:34:52,199 --> 00:34:57,119
knucklehead like me being supposedly taken care
of by something out there that loves me

400
00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:00,000
more than I could possibly imagine.
When I really I didn't feel like I

401
00:35:00,039 --> 00:35:05,599
deserve it, you know, there
was nothing special about me in that sense.

402
00:35:06,199 --> 00:35:08,280
So I became an atheist. You
know, I prefer a nonbeliever,

403
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:13,920
but I just you know, I
just and my life has improved exponentially as

404
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:16,639
a result. I was a happy
guy before. I'm happier now because I

405
00:35:16,679 --> 00:35:22,320
feel like I'm being honest with myself
and with the people around me. And

406
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:24,760
it's guys like you that have helped
me do that. Thank you man.

407
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:29,920
Hey. By the way, if
you want a lesson in daily madness,

408
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:37,599
follow Frank Turk on Twitter. It's
like a daily dose of empty calorie platitude

409
00:35:38,159 --> 00:35:44,400
nothingness. I mean, just illogic
that comes out of his pages. I

410
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:49,440
followed for a few days and I
had to go and just unfollow and close

411
00:35:49,559 --> 00:35:54,440
my eyes and block my ears because
the apologists to see them play that game

412
00:35:54,480 --> 00:36:00,119
of twister to excuse the inexcusable,
and then they look down their noses at

413
00:36:00,159 --> 00:36:02,320
the rest of us as if they're
supposed to be making sense. Frank Turk,

414
00:36:02,519 --> 00:36:09,480
no wonder, Christopher Hitchins kicked his
ass right he was a minnow swimming

415
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:14,199
among the sharks. Yeah, I, you know, I try to avoid

416
00:36:14,199 --> 00:36:17,079
a lot of conversations anymore. I
just kind of debtail on what you've opened

417
00:36:17,119 --> 00:36:22,800
your live stream with being melancholy and
whatnot, and you know, looking at

418
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:24,599
the events of the world, and
now talking about Twitter, I don't have

419
00:36:24,639 --> 00:36:30,239
any social media. I don't watch
I know basically what's going on in the

420
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:34,920
world, but not the details,
you know. I honestly, I just

421
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:38,760
feel like I, since I don't
have any way to truly affect them on

422
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:42,760
a macro level, I don't pay
attention to them on that level. And

423
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:45,519
I, you know, I still
have basic struggles, but for the most

424
00:36:45,559 --> 00:36:49,119
part, I feel like that that's
a better policy for me. Maybe it's

425
00:36:49,159 --> 00:36:52,800
a cop out, but man,
I just can't pay attention. You know,

426
00:36:53,199 --> 00:36:59,159
well, I don't think. I
don't think managing how much bullshit gets

427
00:36:59,159 --> 00:37:01,760
thrown in your face is the same
as sticking your head in the sand.

428
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:07,360
I would assume you're relatively informed about
what's going on in the world. But

429
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:10,719
I also think, you know,
we can establish some filters to try to

430
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:15,719
limit the madness. I think that's
totally valid. Brother, You hit the

431
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:17,400
nail on the head. You know, I do have a general sense of

432
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:21,280
what's going on in the world.
Part of the reason that I don't pay

433
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:23,960
as much as the attention that I
used to is because I'm proud to say

434
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:30,039
I'm a former expert on everything.
I mean, a decade ago, I

435
00:37:30,039 --> 00:37:34,800
could have told you what was going
on in Ukraine and why Silicon Velly Bank

436
00:37:35,119 --> 00:37:37,559
crashed and all this other stuff.
I don't know. I really don't know.

437
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:40,840
You know. It's sort of like
the same thing as being a non

438
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:45,760
believer. How can you know so
many of the things that people claim that

439
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:50,199
they do. So, yeah,
I just I just my own business.

440
00:37:50,199 --> 00:37:52,079
But I guess I'll just kind of
try to end with this, and that's

441
00:37:52,119 --> 00:37:57,239
that. I'm also a member of
Alcoholics Anonymous I've been an AA for a

442
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:04,960
long time and having become a non
believer, it's been interesting. It with

443
00:38:05,079 --> 00:38:07,559
a hyower model. Yeah, yeah, the higher power thing, and you

444
00:38:07,639 --> 00:38:10,840
know, people just invent their own
god, and you know, mine does

445
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:15,599
this, and then mine does that, and again kind of going back to

446
00:38:15,639 --> 00:38:19,039
my own personal journey. None of
that ever made sense to me. And

447
00:38:19,079 --> 00:38:22,159
so when I was finally able to
just be honest with myself and the rest

448
00:38:22,159 --> 00:38:23,920
of the people around me, it
just felt better. You know, it

449
00:38:24,039 --> 00:38:30,039
just felt better. And you know, I use the idea put forth by

450
00:38:30,079 --> 00:38:34,480
Marcus Aurelius. If there are gods
and they are just, then they won't

451
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:37,639
care how devout that I've been.
If there are gods and they are not

452
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:39,599
just, well I don't want to
worship them. And if there are no

453
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:44,000
gods, well I have lived a
good life and hopefully I'll be remembered for

454
00:38:44,039 --> 00:38:46,920
a little while by a few people. That's it. You speak wisdom,

455
00:38:47,039 --> 00:38:52,159
Kevin. I appreciate the kind words
and the call hang in there to my

456
00:38:52,199 --> 00:38:53,239
brother. Hey, I wish I
was going to be able to go to

457
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:57,239
Phoenix, but I ain't got the
cash. Bro. I got you,

458
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:01,840
I got you the speech that I'm
giving will eventually post online, probably closer

459
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:06,079
to summertime, once I'm done with
this. I hate to say after I'm

460
00:39:06,119 --> 00:39:08,400
done touring with it because I'm trying
to sound like the Rolling Stones, which

461
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:14,320
I'm not. But it will eventually
go to YouTube, so you'll be able

462
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:17,159
to see it soon. Okay,
Yeah, all ranks, brother to you

463
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:21,920
had a great day. It's funny. Yeah, he's right. Especially when

464
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:25,119
I think you're in a fundamentalist culture, you have this weird confidence about how

465
00:39:25,159 --> 00:39:30,360
much you know. It's like I
was a graduate with honors from Dunning Krueger.

466
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:35,360
You. I mean, I was
an expert on so much that I

467
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:38,159
knew nothing about, and that I
would be smug about all the answers that

468
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:43,400
I had. And then you escape
that culture and you start to look around

469
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:47,599
and you start to know how much
you don't know. And beyond that,

470
00:39:47,639 --> 00:39:53,199
the liberation of being able to say
those words, and some cultures I don't

471
00:39:53,280 --> 00:40:00,159
know is considered an expression of weakness. How could you not know? You

472
00:40:00,199 --> 00:40:04,880
don't know? Well, you should
know, I know, But the truth

473
00:40:05,039 --> 00:40:08,639
is it's the answers and times it's
an honest answer. I don't know.

474
00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:13,719
How did the universe begin? Where
did the first cell come from? Or

475
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:17,440
whatever? I don't know. I
have no idea. Of course, I'm

476
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:22,280
thinking to myself, you don't know
either. Sometimes I'll say that out loud.

477
00:40:24,039 --> 00:40:27,639
You can bang the Book of Genesis
all you want. Trust me,

478
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:30,920
you don't know how the universe started. You got a story, you got

479
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:34,360
you gotta claim that needs to meet
a burden to prove. But you I

480
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:39,719
don't know, and neither do you. More of whatever it is you want

481
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:51,079
to talk about in just a second, hang on. Thank you so much

482
00:40:51,119 --> 00:40:55,440
to all of my supporters on Patreon
who get this show early and commercial free.

483
00:40:55,480 --> 00:41:00,360
But most importantly, they help me
to do what I do. If

484
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:04,760
I can be candid, I know
that COVID the last few years have been

485
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:09,440
kind of hard on people who have
been supported by Patreon dollars, and I

486
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:12,760
totally get it. I mean,
the economy was in the tank, and

487
00:41:13,159 --> 00:41:16,159
everybody's job situation had changed, and
they were scrounging for every penny, and

488
00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:21,599
so a lot of us saw many
of our patrons have to go and take

489
00:41:21,639 --> 00:41:25,199
care of business in their own circles. But it does mean that some of

490
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:29,760
us are trying to make up that
lost ground. So if you enjoyed the

491
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:32,079
show and you want to support it
for I don't know one, four or

492
00:41:32,079 --> 00:41:36,679
five bucks a month or whatever.
It does make a difference. It's huge

493
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:44,039
for podcasters like me. You can
go to Patreon dot com slash Seth Andrews

494
00:41:44,119 --> 00:41:50,079
and thank you so much for your
support. Joseph at two one five,

495
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:53,440
thanks for waiting. Are you there? This is me, This is you.

496
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:58,000
What's on your mind? Oh?
Okay, well beliefs. Then I

497
00:41:58,039 --> 00:42:01,159
didn't hear you say my name?
It's Joseph and Joselphia. Joseph. I'm

498
00:42:01,159 --> 00:42:05,400
glad I'm not the only one on
the show today with a biblical names.

499
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:14,559
That's refreshing. Yeah, I've thought
about changing it. I've been in this

500
00:42:14,679 --> 00:42:20,159
journey at this point about four years. I initially, well, first of

501
00:42:20,159 --> 00:42:23,519
all, I'm gay, and I'm
married to a man and his sister is

502
00:42:23,639 --> 00:42:30,320
gay and married to a woman.
And I was going to a Catholic church

503
00:42:30,679 --> 00:42:36,280
seven days a week, serving at
the altar. And the week before John

504
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:39,800
and I got married, they had
a service. All the readings were about

505
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:44,679
marriage, and I said, what
am I doing here? The Catholic Church

506
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:47,760
does not accept me. They would
never ever let me go in there and

507
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:52,559
be married in a Catholic church.
I said, why am I doing this?

508
00:42:53,079 --> 00:43:00,320
And so my first getting out of
Christianity was deism and that didn't last

509
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:05,159
long because you go on YouTube and
the other videos that come up are atheist

510
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:09,679
videos, and so I started listening
to you in a few others and I

511
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:15,920
said, this makes more sense to
me. But the reason I called is

512
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:21,559
my husband had some physical problems within
the hospital, and of course his sister

513
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:25,039
has to talk to me to find
out how he's doing. She knows I

514
00:43:25,119 --> 00:43:31,639
do not believe. She is a
very nominal, cafeteria Catholic. Well,

515
00:43:31,679 --> 00:43:36,880
I believe in God and you know
that. So we just won't talk about

516
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:43,360
that, okay. But she's also
one hundred percent like some kind of raiky

517
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:50,360
master, which I think is sort
of odd compared to Catholicism. And we're

518
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:54,760
talking about John's condition, and then
we get on other subjects, and I

519
00:43:54,800 --> 00:44:00,719
said, you know, I've called
our congressman and our senators to try and

520
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:06,440
get them to propose a bill to
change the motto of the United States back

521
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:12,840
to the original motto E pure.
But I can't say it epure. I

522
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:15,360
can't say no, no, no, e pluribus unum. It means out

523
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:20,000
of many, thank you. And
yeah, it was the motto before in

524
00:44:20,119 --> 00:44:24,400
God We trust was added later on
in like nineteen fifty six because of the

525
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:29,519
Red scare. YEA. And she
said, Joseph, I don't want to

526
00:44:29,559 --> 00:44:32,239
talk about that. I said,
I'm not making fun of your religion or

527
00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:36,440
anything. I'm talking about the motto
of the United States. She said,

528
00:44:36,599 --> 00:44:38,559
Joseph, I don't want to talk
about that. If you keep talking about

529
00:44:38,559 --> 00:44:43,320
that, I'm going to hang up
on you. And I said, okay.

530
00:44:44,039 --> 00:44:47,239
And it's like I'm talking about politics. I'm talking about the motto of

531
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:52,199
the United States. And the biggest
problem is I'm still an angry atheist.

532
00:44:52,599 --> 00:44:58,119
But you've caught me down a little
bit. Oh I'm angry too, I

533
00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:01,360
trust me. I I was at
a dinner table with a bunch of people

534
00:45:01,639 --> 00:45:07,360
the other night, this would just
last week, and politics came up,

535
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:12,159
and I'm having that whole cost benefit
discussion, right do I really I did

536
00:45:12,199 --> 00:45:15,599
not come here to get into it
about politics, but at the same time,

537
00:45:15,599 --> 00:45:19,159
it is important. And somebody said, well, you know, I

538
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:24,360
really like Ron DeSantis for president in
twenty twenty four, and I almost crawled

539
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:30,119
out of my skin, climbed over
the table and grabbed them by the throat.

540
00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:35,119
I didn't do it, but I
had that inclination. So I get

541
00:45:35,159 --> 00:45:38,760
angry, just like you do when
I think anger is the appropriate response.

542
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:43,280
But as far as the sister is
concerned, I mean, if she's not

543
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:49,400
ramming her first, I've never heard
Catholicism and raiki in the same room together.

544
00:45:49,519 --> 00:45:52,320
That's a that's a weird convergence of
belief system. You know. I

545
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:58,119
got the Catholic Church and raiky healing
energies, chockris and shit like that.

546
00:45:58,119 --> 00:46:00,480
That's weird. Yeah, that's pretty
weird. And she she asked me to

547
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:05,800
tell John. She said, tell
John, I'm sending reiki to him.

548
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:12,320
She lives in guess where, Florida, and she hates the santis. We

549
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:16,199
can agree on that. Okay,
How do you send to someone? I

550
00:46:16,199 --> 00:46:21,760
thought raiki was a practice. I
think you'd stand over someone and your hands.

551
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:27,199
You believe you can send it long
distance like or does AT and T

552
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:30,360
charge extra for that? Do you
need fiber Do you need fiber optics for

553
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:36,159
raiki to go through the landline?
I have questions about long distance raiki.

554
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:40,159
Um. I'm sorry for that for
your partner's troubles um anything I mean,

555
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:45,039
okay, I mean I was gonna
say, he's anything we can do,

556
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:51,679
right, No, but she you
know, and and I do because of

557
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:55,320
you. I said to John,
your sister Rose is praying for you and

558
00:46:55,400 --> 00:47:02,159
sending reiki to you. And I
did it against my better judgment. I'd

559
00:47:02,159 --> 00:47:07,639
think it's silly, but I told
him that, and he said, well,

560
00:47:07,679 --> 00:47:13,039
that's nice. But I just don't
understand why she can't talk about the

561
00:47:13,079 --> 00:47:16,920
motto of the United States. Well
she thinks it's somehow an attack against God

562
00:47:17,039 --> 00:47:22,840
or religion. Well, we're talking
about a belief link to her identity,

563
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:30,159
right. She lives in a confirmation
bubble, and anything that disconfirms her pre

564
00:47:30,519 --> 00:47:34,760
established notions about the world, she's
going to feel like this is a virus

565
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:39,199
that's entering her healthy body and she
has to inoculate herself. And why would

566
00:47:39,199 --> 00:47:44,360
she want to live in a world
where her deeply held beliefs are challenged by

567
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:49,239
those pesky data points and facts in
the history of the United States. No,

568
00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:52,239
No, I don't even want to
hear it. I've been in conversations

569
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:55,639
with people and they will tell me
outright, seth, I don't care what

570
00:47:55,760 --> 00:48:00,159
you say. I don't care what
facts you present, I don't care what

571
00:48:00,199 --> 00:48:02,920
the evidence says. You will never
change my mind. And I'm so struck

572
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:10,000
by that because it's a proud declaration
that you will never improve your perspective when

573
00:48:10,039 --> 00:48:15,800
you get better information. And that's
the frustration you're feeling, right, Joseph,

574
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:19,559
Yeah, it's like, I mean, I've had thoughts of, well,

575
00:48:19,639 --> 00:48:22,519
gee, I just don't even want
to talk to her. But she's

576
00:48:22,599 --> 00:48:28,119
not strict. I mean, she's
not like some fundamental as Catholic. She's

577
00:48:28,159 --> 00:48:32,800
a lesbian. I wouldn't sweat that. I wouldn't know the Catholic churches for

578
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:37,239
your sanity's sake. I wouldn't spend
too much time trying to change her mind.

579
00:48:37,559 --> 00:48:43,239
I think, you know, it's
healthy for her to be not confronted,

580
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:47,400
but to experience conflicting point of view, you know, a disagreeing perspective.

581
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:52,679
We certainly don't want to feel like
we're bubble wrapping ourselves to keep her

582
00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:58,800
comfortable, but changing her mind is
that's probably a long game. I would

583
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:04,559
focus more on you being true to
you, taking care of your husband's you

584
00:49:04,599 --> 00:49:07,760
know, living your own values,
and you know who knows. Maybe someday

585
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:12,440
she'll actually, you know, maybe
there'll be that how did how was that

586
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:15,199
said? David McRaney called it the
crack that lets in the light. Maybe

587
00:49:15,199 --> 00:49:19,480
one day that crack will sort of
hit the verneer and she'll be able.

588
00:49:19,639 --> 00:49:23,840
Did I say verneer? Oh my
god, that's a total Oklahoma, it

589
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:28,760
snuck out. I said the word
verner. I'm sorry. Anyway, we're

590
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:31,119
hopefully one day she'll maybe tap you
on the shoulder and you guys can have

591
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:36,000
the conversation where she feels more safe. But I wouldn't beat yourself up because

592
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:37,800
she's not going to bend. It's
just I think it's the nature of the

593
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:43,679
beast. Okay, Yeah, it's
just frustrating because it was just a conversation.

594
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:47,440
It wasn't I wasn't trying to affect
her own belief system. I was

595
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:54,000
talking about the country and the fact
that Benjamin Franklin, Jefferson and Adams were

596
00:49:54,159 --> 00:50:00,440
commissioned to create a seal of the
United States and the only thing that they

597
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:05,480
came up with, and they came
up with some weird ideas was eplurbusunum.

598
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:12,519
It's stuck. Joseph I appreciate you
and e pluribus unum. I'm sending that

599
00:50:12,639 --> 00:50:15,400
down the fiber optic right out of
men. I'm sending the motto of the

600
00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:20,960
United States instead of raiki to you. That's more grounded and you'd be safe

601
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:23,079
and take care of yourself. Okay, okay, thank you, see you

602
00:50:23,159 --> 00:50:27,880
later. I'm sending you raiki.
I've never I've just never heard it phrase

603
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:30,119
like that. I guess it's possible. I mean if like I was talking

604
00:50:30,119 --> 00:50:36,960
to Susan Gerbick on the The Grief
Vampires podcast and they were talking about doing

605
00:50:37,159 --> 00:50:42,519
psychic readings on zoom. So I
guess if you can read someone's you know

606
00:50:42,599 --> 00:50:47,039
they're psyche and talk to their dad's
mother or grandmother or whoever, and you

607
00:50:47,079 --> 00:50:51,320
can do so on the internet,
I suppose you know. But do you

608
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:53,840
need I mean, can you do
high speed? Do you need an ethernets?

609
00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:58,159
Can you do it over the standard
phone lines? I mean, I

610
00:50:58,199 --> 00:51:04,960
have questions. I have questions about
sending down the raiki. Let's see Chris

611
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:08,679
at seven zero six. Are you
there? I am, Thanks for calling.

612
00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:13,119
What do you want to talk about? You know, I'm pretty well

613
00:51:13,119 --> 00:51:17,360
into my journey of coming out of
religion. I was raised in a very

614
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:23,519
Southern Baptist sweating and spitting in the
pulpit kind of church, and I've left

615
00:51:23,559 --> 00:51:29,000
home. I you know, I'm
actual duty military, and I've just completely

616
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:34,199
fallen out of kinds of stuff I
was raised in. And as of now,

617
00:51:34,599 --> 00:51:37,159
my little sister, who still lives
in that area, is the only

618
00:51:37,199 --> 00:51:43,400
one who really knows other than my
wife. And I wanted to see if

619
00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:49,280
you had any nuggets of wisdom about
how to handle bringing up to my parents,

620
00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:54,000
who are still very much religious.
They've left kind of the more extreme

621
00:51:54,440 --> 00:52:00,079
version that we were in when I
was younger. They're more and more that

622
00:52:00,199 --> 00:52:05,760
kind more progressive kind of first Aptist
church now that still hold on to that

623
00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:12,400
very strongly. And my thoughts have
been to not push the issue, let

624
00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:16,280
it come up naturally so that they
don't feel too blindsided about it. But

625
00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:22,159
do you have any little pieces of
wisdom? Oh, you're talking to somebody

626
00:52:22,159 --> 00:52:28,199
who has been bitching on the podcast
for thirteen fourteen years about his own failures

627
00:52:29,039 --> 00:52:34,199
with his family. So but I
can do this for you. I can't

628
00:52:34,239 --> 00:52:38,920
tell you the approach that will create
a positive response from your mother and father.

629
00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:45,960
What I can do is to encourage
you that whatever you do needs to

630
00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:52,039
not be about them as much as
it is about you. I do think

631
00:52:52,599 --> 00:52:58,119
walking in with data points and trying
to dissect the Bible and convince them,

632
00:52:58,719 --> 00:53:00,320
you know, to try to valid
because I think we all want to do

633
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:04,920
that. Here are the legitimate concerns
I have about religion. Did you note

634
00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:07,800
that this is wrong and this is
contradictory? And God said this, and

635
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:09,519
he commanded rape in the Bible,
and he wants the silence women, and

636
00:53:09,639 --> 00:53:13,519
there was genocide of a half a
million people in blah blah. And so

637
00:53:13,599 --> 00:53:16,519
you go in and you're trying to
be heard and saying, as a moral

638
00:53:16,559 --> 00:53:20,679
creature, as someone who wants to
be about the truth, these are the

639
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:23,719
reasons. And I think that's a
temptation that many of us have. But

640
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:28,800
I've become more and more convinced that
this does not change minds and usually only

641
00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:34,280
creates problems, at least at the
front end. I think you don't walk

642
00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:37,119
in with data points. I think
you walk in and you say, look,

643
00:53:37,239 --> 00:53:40,679
I wanted to share with you that
I have been on a journey and

644
00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:47,679
I have been navigating some questions and
concerns about some things, and I have

645
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:53,480
come to a position here that's you
know, I'm not convinced. Right,

646
00:53:53,719 --> 00:53:59,559
this is language that is sort of
softer, but I don't think it's weaker.

647
00:54:00,039 --> 00:54:04,039
I'm not convinced. I've got some
real problems with this, and I

648
00:54:04,079 --> 00:54:07,000
just wanted you to know that I'm
on this journey and that whatever is true,

649
00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:13,360
I'm making a commitment to you that
that's what I want. And if

650
00:54:13,480 --> 00:54:15,480
God shows up, then I want
to know that. You know, I

651
00:54:15,519 --> 00:54:21,519
think they're reassurance that life is a
journey. You're taking your own on your

652
00:54:21,519 --> 00:54:25,280
own terms, and whatever is true, you want that to be a part

653
00:54:25,320 --> 00:54:30,719
of your journey as well. I
would keep the first conversation short. Right

654
00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:36,239
short, you are going to they
are going to throw the hooks out,

655
00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:39,519
They're going to want to suck you
into a long form conversation. Then things

656
00:54:39,519 --> 00:54:44,639
are going to become frustrated, probably
heated. Someone's going to leave, pissed

657
00:54:44,679 --> 00:54:47,960
off or whatever. I would try
to avoid that at all costs. The

658
00:54:49,119 --> 00:54:53,239
first conversation is merely putting it on
their radar in a soft way. This

659
00:54:53,320 --> 00:54:57,639
is my journey. Here's where I'm
at. I just I don't want to

660
00:54:57,679 --> 00:55:00,679
talk through it at the moment,
but I feel like I wanted you to

661
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:05,599
know that I'm kind of here,
and you know, let's we can talk

662
00:55:05,639 --> 00:55:07,920
more about it down the way,
right. Then you'll let that sink in,

663
00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:14,079
and then the rest of those conversations
I think can come afterward. But

664
00:55:14,119 --> 00:55:15,960
at the end of the day,
your job will not be to convince them.

665
00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:22,920
Never walk in saying I'm going to
fix them or convince them that I

666
00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:24,960
am right or that I have a
point. We would love for that to

667
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:29,000
happen, but I don't think that's
the goal. The goal is for you

668
00:55:29,039 --> 00:55:31,079
to go in and say, this
is my journey. I'm taking it on

669
00:55:31,159 --> 00:55:36,239
my terms. There are some boundaries
I've established that I'm going to ask you

670
00:55:36,320 --> 00:55:39,480
to observe, and I commit to
you that I want to live a truthful

671
00:55:39,519 --> 00:55:43,960
life. I think that's the goal. It's really more about you than it's

672
00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:46,719
about them. Does that answer your
question? Yeah, yeah, it does,

673
00:55:47,119 --> 00:55:53,400
it does. I cannot reiterate this
enough that first conversation. Trust me,

674
00:55:53,519 --> 00:55:58,400
you will go in and you'll want
to make it ten minutes and they

675
00:55:58,440 --> 00:56:02,159
are going to want to suck you
win to a ninety minute prayer meeting or

676
00:56:02,199 --> 00:56:08,679
a debate club. Do not take
that bait right, skip out of that

677
00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:14,320
conversation, draw a hard line on
that conversation, but that first one,

678
00:56:14,639 --> 00:56:17,320
keep it short, and that's my
advice to you. Okay, thank you,

679
00:56:17,559 --> 00:56:23,039
And before I'll let you go,
I actually found your channel a little

680
00:56:23,119 --> 00:56:29,760
later into my deconstruction and deconversion actually
through the video you did with Forrest and

681
00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:35,159
Erica, who both of them were
people that I learned a lot from very

682
00:56:35,159 --> 00:56:38,599
early on. People like them and
Dapperdno and R and Raw. Apologies.

683
00:56:38,719 --> 00:56:43,199
So all of you guys doing what
you do. It makes a big difference

684
00:56:43,199 --> 00:56:45,760
in a lot of people's lives and
I'm very appreciative of it. Oh,

685
00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:47,800
it means a lot. And I'll
pass the word on when I bump into

686
00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:52,000
those folks on the road. So
good luck with your family, and you

687
00:56:52,039 --> 00:56:55,559
know, if something happens that is
notable, feel free to call back give

688
00:56:55,639 --> 00:56:59,920
us the update. Okay, absolutely, thank you, all right, Well,

689
00:57:00,039 --> 00:57:06,000
see you later. I remember when
I was having lunch with my sister

690
00:57:06,039 --> 00:57:09,519
and a friend of hers, both
devoutly religious, and her friend said,

691
00:57:09,559 --> 00:57:14,639
well, can you tell me why
you're no longer a Christian? This was

692
00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:17,920
years ago, before i'd evolved my
own thinking and I just went to Genesis,

693
00:57:17,960 --> 00:57:22,480
chapter one, verse one, and
I started, Did you know there

694
00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:27,480
are two conflicting versions of the Genesis
story? Did you know that the geologic

695
00:57:27,599 --> 00:57:31,800
column totally disproves the biblical claim that
there was a global flood? Did you

696
00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:37,800
know that there are four conflicting versions
of the empty tomb story with Jesus,

697
00:57:37,800 --> 00:57:42,679
and that the Nativity story changes from
book to book between Matthew and Luke.

698
00:57:42,719 --> 00:57:45,679
Did you know that the Jesus went
to different places? After the sermon on

699
00:57:45,719 --> 00:57:50,039
the mountain, I was throwing all
the data points, and you should have

700
00:57:50,079 --> 00:57:54,480
seen her face. She just glazed
over and finally interrupted me, no,

701
00:57:54,480 --> 00:57:58,639
no, no, I ask you
why you are no longer a Christian?

702
00:57:58,760 --> 00:58:02,239
Right? She wasn't hearing the data
points. In fact, she doubled down

703
00:58:02,519 --> 00:58:07,559
and bristled, and it's like her
skin got thicker to resist the facts that

704
00:58:07,639 --> 00:58:14,239
I was presenting. She was operating
from a different frequency. And I wish

705
00:58:14,280 --> 00:58:19,400
I had used a different tactic with
her. I wish I had used more

706
00:58:19,440 --> 00:58:24,880
of an introductory methods. I went
back to the Bible, and I began

707
00:58:24,920 --> 00:58:30,239
to look at it more objectively,
and I had some real concerns, and

708
00:58:30,320 --> 00:58:34,920
so I've been on this journey,
and you know, I've come to the

709
00:58:34,960 --> 00:58:38,119
point now where I'm I'm just not
convinced, and I'm still a good person

710
00:58:38,360 --> 00:58:42,920
and I'm a pursuer of truth.
You know, I'm still the same guy

711
00:58:43,000 --> 00:58:49,000
you've always known. But for my
part, I don't find this convincing.

712
00:58:49,079 --> 00:58:52,960
It's not right for me anyway,
and I certainly respect the freedom of someone

713
00:58:53,000 --> 00:58:58,119
else to be religious, but I
also you know, I'm not an opponent

714
00:58:58,159 --> 00:59:01,719
of religion. I'm simply an opponent
to have religious privilege, people telling other

715
00:59:01,760 --> 00:59:06,079
people what to think, how to
behave, what to do, who to

716
00:59:06,239 --> 00:59:08,840
be. I'm an opponent of that. But if you believe in God,

717
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:14,320
you know, I wish you a
truthful journey and an honest journey, and

718
00:59:14,760 --> 00:59:16,800
whatever's true, let's do that.
I mean, I would have said something

719
00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:22,039
along those lines because I think it
would have done a better job of keeping

720
00:59:22,079 --> 00:59:28,360
them off the defensive. Wasn't condescending, And I don't know. That's just

721
00:59:28,920 --> 00:59:36,360
my perspective, and I may be
totally totally wrong. Terry at two four

722
00:59:36,480 --> 00:59:39,119
eights, are you there? I
am here, Seth. Thanks for taking

723
00:59:39,159 --> 00:59:44,920
my call. Lo you are with
us always, Terry, what's on your

724
00:59:44,960 --> 00:59:47,079
mind, Lo, I am with
you. Well, you know, a

725
00:59:47,119 --> 00:59:52,480
week or so ago, I was
watching some clips on the internet and I

726
00:59:52,519 --> 00:59:55,480
saw this guy named Sean McDowell.
I don't know if you know of him.

727
00:59:55,519 --> 01:00:02,239
He's an apologist from Biola Universe,
and he he was at a Christian

728
01:00:02,360 --> 01:00:08,320
university pretending to be an atheist and
taking questions from the crowd. He didn't

729
01:00:08,320 --> 01:00:15,320
speak very long before he started digging
questions and was actually had some good responses

730
01:00:15,440 --> 01:00:22,119
to the student's questions, and then
admitted that he was not an atheist but

731
01:00:22,320 --> 01:00:28,079
was an apologist to a professor at
Biola University. And if you've ever heard

732
01:00:28,119 --> 01:00:32,199
of him, and if you've ever
seen his clips or wanted to debate him

733
01:00:32,280 --> 01:00:37,320
or anything like that, I've heard
of Josh McDowell. I'm suspicious this may

734
01:00:37,320 --> 01:00:43,000
be Josh's son. A lot of
these things are dynasties. It's almost like

735
01:00:43,079 --> 01:00:47,840
Jerry Folwell Junior and Franklin Graham,
the son of Billy Graham. That would

736
01:00:47,880 --> 01:00:53,639
be my suspicion. More interestingly,
i've heard you go out and you talk

737
01:00:53,760 --> 01:01:00,679
to either Christians or atheists under if
not false pretenses. Is it's more of

738
01:01:00,679 --> 01:01:07,039
a lab experiment trying to expose how
the atheists think and to somehow prove the

739
01:01:07,119 --> 01:01:10,920
facts of Christianity. I'm not too
impressed by that kind of stuff. When

740
01:01:10,920 --> 01:01:15,400
you saw him playing the atheist that
he sounded like the rest of us.

741
01:01:16,199 --> 01:01:21,400
He had a lot of the same
points to make. But one of his

742
01:01:21,519 --> 01:01:25,559
that I thought was a little strange
was when he was talking about whether the

743
01:01:25,719 --> 01:01:30,719
universe always existed or whether it had
a beginning, and he went down the

744
01:01:30,760 --> 01:01:37,599
path of a multiverse and use that
to justify that is why he thought that

745
01:01:37,760 --> 01:01:44,119
the universe always existed. It just
seemed like a very odd tact to try

746
01:01:44,159 --> 01:01:45,480
to take, and that's why I
started to question it at first. And

747
01:01:45,519 --> 01:01:50,159
then when he said he was an
apologist, then it kind of all came

748
01:01:50,199 --> 01:01:53,880
together for me. But he was
making some good points at a student's questions.

749
01:01:53,960 --> 01:02:00,159
It's funny, I'm not a cosmologist. Does a multiverse require that the

750
01:02:00,239 --> 01:02:05,320
universe had no beginning? I don't. I think that is maybe a non

751
01:02:05,360 --> 01:02:09,360
sequitor. I don't know. That
doesn't really ring for me. I do

752
01:02:09,519 --> 01:02:14,440
hear the how did it all start? Or One of my favorites is when

753
01:02:14,880 --> 01:02:20,880
I'm talking about how the Genesis origin
story for all of you know, the

754
01:02:21,039 --> 01:02:24,760
universe is totally unproven. In fact, it's been debunked. And they say,

755
01:02:24,840 --> 01:02:30,159
well, something started all of this, And I just look at him

756
01:02:30,159 --> 01:02:34,719
in the iron and say, ombous
you and I agree, right, something

757
01:02:34,880 --> 01:02:37,280
happened. I mean, I think
that's pretty basic, don't you. Yeah,

758
01:02:37,360 --> 01:02:39,599
I think I think so too,
you know, And maybe a few

759
01:02:39,599 --> 01:02:45,679
of them should read Lawrence Cross's book
Something from Nothing. I'm interested in the

760
01:02:45,840 --> 01:02:50,360
singularity, in measuring the universe as
it expands, and then it's supposed to

761
01:02:50,400 --> 01:02:54,599
one day start contracting. And I
read earlier that the Milky Way is going

762
01:02:54,639 --> 01:02:59,960
to collide with another galaxy in a
certain measure of time, not in our

763
01:03:00,119 --> 01:03:04,039
lifetimes, not even in the immediate
future, like millions of years. But

764
01:03:04,079 --> 01:03:07,960
they're saying that our galaxy is going
to smash into another galaxy, and won't

765
01:03:07,000 --> 01:03:12,880
that be fun? All this is
really really interesting. But beyond that,

766
01:03:13,239 --> 01:03:16,199
when someone says I'm a believer,
but I'm either acting like an atheist or

767
01:03:16,239 --> 01:03:21,679
I'm representing the atheist or whatever,
almost always they totally get it wrong.

768
01:03:22,280 --> 01:03:25,840
A great example is when they talk
about the origins of the universe. Atheism

769
01:03:25,880 --> 01:03:31,639
doesn't make a claim about how the
universe began. Atheism is simply a lack

770
01:03:31,679 --> 01:03:35,320
of belief in God. I am
not convinced. I do not believe in

771
01:03:35,320 --> 01:03:37,960
a God. It doesn't say anything
necessarily about anything else. And so the

772
01:03:38,039 --> 01:03:44,679
fact that he's walking in with questions
about the origins of all things that,

773
01:03:44,719 --> 01:03:49,119
to me is not something that an
atheist would necessarily lead with. Yes,

774
01:03:49,280 --> 01:03:52,719
as soon as he made the announcement
that he was an apologist, I knew

775
01:03:52,719 --> 01:03:57,320
he was going to start going into
his explanations of his playing an atheist response,

776
01:03:57,320 --> 01:04:00,599
and I just kind of hit stop. It just sounds like it sounds

777
01:04:00,639 --> 01:04:04,719
like he went to straw Man City, right. He just sets things up,

778
01:04:05,119 --> 01:04:12,400
and he misrepresents what's being unconvinced in
God claims is, knocks him over,

779
01:04:12,519 --> 01:04:15,719
pats himself on the back, and
then goes and makes a YouTube video

780
01:04:15,800 --> 01:04:18,800
about it. And this is a
common apologist tactic out there. But you

781
01:04:18,840 --> 01:04:23,320
know, beyond all of that,
the questions and answers, why would God

782
01:04:23,480 --> 01:04:27,360
entrust this guy Sean McDowell, Why
wouldn't God come down and talk to the

783
01:04:27,400 --> 01:04:32,119
college students one on one? I
don't get that exactly. That would have

784
01:04:32,119 --> 01:04:35,480
been a hell of a speech if
that way, I'd be there for the

785
01:04:36,079 --> 01:04:41,679
tickets for that. Right, I'm
an atheist. And if if Jesus olah

786
01:04:41,800 --> 01:04:45,480
thor Wotan whoever he wants to come
down and be a god and I want

787
01:04:45,519 --> 01:04:49,280
to have that conversation, I'll buy. Right, I'll take you to cough.

788
01:04:49,639 --> 01:04:54,440
Let's do that. And that's one
thing that many believers don't allow that

789
01:04:54,519 --> 01:05:00,360
atheists really do want is truth.
And if there is a God, I

790
01:05:00,360 --> 01:05:02,360
would want to know that. And
then the next questions are are you a

791
01:05:02,599 --> 01:05:05,679
good God, a bad God,
a worthy God, a God worth following?

792
01:05:06,079 --> 01:05:10,400
You know, There's a whole other
series of questions that come after that.

793
01:05:10,519 --> 01:05:15,199
But that's another example of the apologists
doing apologetics things. Terry, thanks

794
01:05:15,239 --> 01:05:18,880
so much for Colin. Be safe
out there, Okay, thanks, take

795
01:05:18,920 --> 01:05:21,719
care, soul. All right,
we'll see you later. I wrote a

796
01:05:21,880 --> 01:05:27,079
chapter in my latest book, Christianity
made Me talk like an idiot that gets

797
01:05:27,079 --> 01:05:33,480
into many of the apologists, just
the pathetic ways that they represents the rest

798
01:05:33,480 --> 01:05:39,519
of us or try to defend the
indefensible. And the apologist can't agree with

799
01:05:39,599 --> 01:05:43,920
each other on the basic stuff.
You see, you know what I'm saying,

800
01:05:44,400 --> 01:05:49,119
And the whole concept is God looks
down and says, hey, Sean

801
01:05:49,239 --> 01:05:58,199
McDowell, go defend me on you
too. What is that if not arrogance?

802
01:06:00,559 --> 01:06:04,760
That's all I got today. I
hope you have a wonderful week.

803
01:06:04,800 --> 01:06:10,519
I'm gonna go and start kind of
nibble away and tweak the speech for American

804
01:06:10,559 --> 01:06:15,880
Atheist Convention in Phoenix. Scrap some
coffee, pet the dogs, and I

805
01:06:15,920 --> 01:06:19,239
will see you back here next time. Take care. Follow The Thinking Atheist

806
01:06:19,400 --> 01:06:25,360
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archive of podcasts and videos, products like

807
01:06:25,440 --> 01:06:30,039
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808
01:06:30,079 --> 01:06:34,199
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thought events and conventions. Log onto our

809
01:06:34,199 --> 01:06:39,000
website, The Thinking Atheist dot com.