Successful individuals use coaching and mentorship to help them unlock their potential. Not all
coaches are created equal, and that's why we work with the top five percent
of coaches at IDEMICS. Welcome to coaches you need. Brought to you by
Idemics. Today, we're in conversation with Professor Medupe Akinola. She's a professor
at Columbia Business School whose research has focused on stress, diversity, and biases
in the workplace. She's written extensively on these topics in publications like The New
York Times, NPR, Wired, among others. Her co authored Sunday New
York Times op ed titled Professors or Prejudice Too with Dolly Chu and Katherine Milkman,
was one of the top twenty most emailed, read, tweeted, chaired
articles the weekend it was published. She consults for various organizations, among which
our police departments across the US, advising on their reform efforts. And apart
from her extensive academic qualifications, she's worked in consulting, finance, and in
the nonprofit world along her path to where she is now one of the most
highly rated professors at Columbia Business School. We'll try not to hold that against
her, despite being a Harvard University at a Harvard Business School grad, that
she's chosen to teach at Columbia. Would you'd be welcome to the show.
Thanks so much for having me. It's really good to be here. So
would With your background in psychology, your research sits at the intersection of organizational
efficiency and change, psychology and human behavior. You've done so many different things
leading up to becoming a professor at Columbia Business School. Is this where you
thought you'd end up, even as you're working at being consulting or on a
nonprofit project in Ghana. Here's the funny thing. I was a psychology major
undergrad, and I took a course on the psychology of organization, and I
even took my gre junior year in college thinking that I wanted to be a
professor. Okay, The amazing thing for me on my journey was I also
did business stuff on campus, like Harvard stun agencies all that. And I
had a mentor who was a business school professor who, when I said I
think I want to be a business school professor, was like, no,
do the business stuff do that? You know? So I was kind of
like, you're right, Maybe I will try a different path because I love
the business side of things too. And at that point I was like,
I'll get my PhD when I'm in my fifties or sixties. Eventually I ended
up getting my PhD sooner than that, and that led me on this path.
But there's nothing like getting guidance from mentors, having mentors, getting guidance
from them in terms of shaping your path. But you know, there's certain
things that you do prior, whether it's in college, whether it's in your
extracurriculars, that light you up. Pay attention to those because that might be
something you do later or even than you think. Yeah, it's it's fascinating.
I think that you know, we go through our high school, college,
grad school, you know, early working years, sort of not cognizant
of that in a way. Yeah, And and sometime towards the end of
the twenties early thirties, there's this sort of realization of, Gosh, I
really loved doing that thing or that set of things, and listening to those
instincts I think is so critical to them sort of the future. I think
that's so right. And also having friends who give you guidance and advice to
you because they've watched you in the things that make give you joy. And
it's funny because I know we were talking about a friend we have in common
from business school. I remember the year that I was applying to business school
to get my PhD. Right, I happened to touch base with her and
she was like, I had a dream the other day that you were a
professor. Huh. So you never know what little things are happening in the
universe to guide you along your path. So it's like pay attention, pay
attention, totally look out for the signs. Yeah. Yeah, So part
of your research has focused on how setbacks can often spur us forward. I
want to take a quick look at this video where you describe some of your
research. But if they tell us a little bit about how you develop the
study, what got you interested in the topic, how you design the study.
Yeah, So there was a lot of research out there that was like,
you know, it's bad to be in a bad mood in terms of
being creative. You know, you need to be in a good mood and
a positive mood and all that. And I can think of a lot of
times in my journey where I wasn't in a positive mood, but some creative
things came out, and so we kind of set out to better understand what
is this link between mood and creativity? And we know from the video that
lots of creative p ball often suffered from negative mood related disorders, but then
we're very creative, so what is it? And so in this work,
the idea was to kind of unpack that and to look at your biology,
which, when coupled with situations, can then affect your creativity. And the
big thing we found is that, yeah, when do you have a negative
mood triggering situation and you might be more sensitive to that, That's when people
created the most amazing collages. So it's just a reminder that sometimes that negative
mood, creativity offers an opportunity to repair that, right, And so when
I think about that in everyday life, one question is, Yeah, when
you're feeling down or whatever, what is something that you can channel that negativity
into that can lead to some kind of creative output that might be useful for
whatever it is you're struggling with. So that was one of the origin of
that work and what I take from it, Yeah, No, it's I
think we live in a world where it's sort of a little bit the age
of instant gratification. Right, So it's sort of, oh, I'm not
in a good mood, or oh I'm feeling negative or or I'm feeling anxious
or whatever, and that's not a good thing, right, is sort of
the very common perception when the reality is like everyone goes through those cycles,
and the question is really what you do with that, right and can you
channel it productively to kind of learn from those experiences and then get to a
better place. Absolutely, I like to remind myself and others we were given
this range of emotions for a reason. We have been given anxiety, so
like, it's not that we're supposed to suppress it. You're supposed to experience
it and then ask yourself, Okay, well why am I feeling this way?
Now? Why do these situations cause me to feel this way? And
what can I do about it? Instead of being like, go away,
go away? Oh why am I anxious? This is bad? Is no,
recognize it and accept it and then do something with it. And I
hope that we start teaching kids this at younger ages because I think that might
lead to more healthy behaviors. Totally, No, absolutely. I think I
start to think about Lisa Demorris work, would you I'm sure seeing and and
I remember when my girls were starting to, you know, kind of experience
some of those anxieties they're going to a talk by her reading her book.
You know, it was sort of help your child as a parent to understand
what they're feeling and going through rather than saying, oh, don't be anxious
or oh don't be stressed, right, you know, because these are all
practical realities of our live lives exactly, and when we deny these things and
these experiences, then it sends the signal that it's bad when it's not.
Yeah, So I think taking that advice for ourselves and for the young people
in our lives is critical. Yeah. Absolutely so. In terms of the
practical implications of how individuals translate your research findings into specific behaviors in a corporate
context or any kind of business context, how do you think you know,
any of us as individuals leading teams or in any kind of leadership role should
sort of balance the positive and negative feedback we give people. Yeah, it's
such an important question. I think the first thing is understand your people.
Yep, know that certain people react in certain ways the types of feedback.
So there might be somebody who's like, stop sugarcoating and telling me all the
positive things first, Let's get to the negative, then get to the positive.
Other people are like, please give me that positive reinforcement first, because
then that will help me receive the negative because I'm already thinking about the next.
So to the extent that we get to learn what each person needs and
cater our feedback to that or the processes we engage in, then that will
be better for them. And I don't think that people have that sensitivity as
leaders. And if you develop that, I think not only will it help
people receive what you have to say, that then will lead to them progressing,
staying being motivated by you and I'm doing even better at their job one
d P. I mean we experience this in our business here. An idea
makes all the time, right, Like, the skills that put people into
leadership roles are then not the skills that they require to be effective leaders.
And probably the number one skill is sort of evolving their communication style, right,
you know, kind of knowing your audience as you were just saying,
understanding that different personalities require a different mode of communication, right, and that
transition. A lot of people struggle to make right and need sort of something,
whether it's you know, some kind of learning mechanism, whether that's mentorship.
In our case, it's coaching to really understand how to change those behaviors
in themselves and then implement them by their team. Right. And I mean,
what a couple of things that I always remind my students when I teach
about being effective leaders is different people need different things at different times. Yeah.
And also that we have these egocentric tendencies where we think that everyone's just
like I am. Right, so the way I want to receive feedback is
the way they know or that they're just like each other. Yea. No.
And so to the extent that we remember that this is not the case,
the better off will be one hundred. Let's shift gears a little bit
and talk about failure, another topic You've spent a lot of your time working
with. One of your the insights from some of your work is that failure
is a positive practice right for life. And you chair the board of your
alma mater, the Barley School, one of the best girls schools in the
country. That my girls have been privileged to attend, and even they're despite
a constant effort I think at the school to talk openly about the importance of
failure, admitting failure, discussing it, and learning from it, it often
feels quite monumental for today's young adults. Right, share your thoughts with us
on this. Is there something that's changed? Is what's shifted? Well?
I think that the problem or the challenge is that we as older adults are
not used to that, used to understanding that, and so part of it
is that we're passing that along but then asking them to shift right. So
how can we get used to this ourselves as adults? And the funny story
about this, I just was with classmates of mind from Brierley, Yea and
one of them has a child that goes to Breally and she mentioned that she
was going to a birthday party and her daughter had written a card to the
young person and she'd crossed out and messed up a word and crossed it out.
And my friend was horrified, like, you're gonna say, you're gonna
give that card but the crossed out letters to your friend and she needs to
pause and be like, no, that's okay, totally mistakes are okay,
And I bet you there are enough parents who are not pausing and they're being
like, no, no, no, here's a new card, write the
new one. Yeah. So, I think that the beauty of interacting with
other humans at different age levels is to be a mirror and to watch yourself
and to say, wait, why did that trigger me? And what does
that mean? I need to change in myself to potentially not be triggered by
that. If we do that more, then I think the younger generations are
going to be even more accepting of this idea of failure in okay with it,
knowing that it's just a part of life. You're so right, I
mean, I think these behaviors with children and young adults in particular are all
learned behaviors and learned reactions right that come from I mean, their teachers,
their parents, really adults they interact with the most in their lives. And
if we're just simply not role modeling the right kind of behaviors, then it's
unsurprising that they've become very anxious about failure, yes, and admitting and sharing,
like, here's where I miss something up too. I think we hold
it in so much and then that prevents the learning that can happen that then
leads to change behaviors. Yeah, makes a ton of sense. So one
of the things we've touched upon in various ways in our conversation up until this
point is learning, mentorship, coaching. What does that play in your life.
I feel like I'm a constant learner. I like to constantly be in
that mode, that mindset. I like to constantly be in that mode and
mindset of being coachable. Yeah. So I do a lot of coaching.
Obviously, I have, you know, my students, the clients I work
with and all that, and but so much of the coaching that I do
teaches me about myself too, And so I think the best coaches are able
to kind of integrate in a unique way and not just impose their perspective,
but also listen. Yeah. I think the best thing we need to do
as coaches and in being coached is to listen one hundred percent. Yeah,
and to treat it as as as a learning process for ourselves as much as
it is for the other person, as we kind of take them on this
journey of self discovery. Right. Otherwise, you are for that process for
them because often as a coach, you kind of know or you feel like
you know the answer, and so to have somebody walk through it themselves and
get to that place is even more rewarding for them as well as for you.
But it's hard because we like to impose our perspectives on others well.
And we also you know, there's almost a societal value system around tell me
what to do right, right, or tell somebody what to do, and
that's viewed as in some sense as solution right, like the sort of quick
fix or the free launch or whatever. But there isn't one really right,
because you hear and are told or all sorts of things kind of every day
of our lives, but we don't internalize them until we do them right in
a way. Yeah, you know, you just made me think about something
that I am practicing more of, which is to ask people what they want
when they ask me for what do you need right now? What kind of
friend, coach mentor do you want me to be? Do you want me
to be the one that's like telling you what to do? Do you want
me to just listen? What do you want? And I think that that
is helpful because I often don't think we know what we want, right,
So forcing somebody to actually think that through is one of the most important steps
I think in a coaching process. Totally. That's such a great point actually,
because I've you know, sometimes struggled with this with my teenage children,
where they sort of, you know, will come to me with a problem
and my immediate instinct just like I see a problem, provide a solution,
right, and asking them the question of you know, do you want a
solution? Do you want me to just listen? Do you want? What
is it that you want? And I need this time? Right? Yeah,
it's okay. Creativity and innovation, Yes, these are perhaps the most
often repeated words in organizations, among leadership teams. Just a few weeks ago,
actually, we were in conversation here with Amy Edmondson, who's focused some
of her research on psychological safety. Tell us your thoughts on creating the right
environment to encourage and boost creativity and innovation. So it's interesting because when you
ask that, the first thing I thought was is it creating the right environment
in general? And then this creativity and innovation comes and so the first thing
that came to mind was can we have an environment where people are different on
many dimensions, whether it's their thinking styles, whether it's their demographics like race,
ethnicity, gender, whether it's their backgrounds, whatever area they're in in
an organization. So if we bring diversity to the table, I think that
there's tons of research showing that that can lead to greater or more innovative solutions
because people with different ideas are then bringing them to the table. Yeah,
but that doesn't lead to creativity on its own, because when people are different,
you know that that can lead to conflict because everyone is so has different
opinions and all that. So it's on the leader to create the environment that
then allows for the creativity to come out and the conflict to be diminished.
And that means creating an environment where people feel like their voice matters, where
they can speak freely, where they are listened to, where they are not
interrupted, where they're building off each other, where there's enough space and time.
Because these days, I'm worried we're so rushed in our meetings. We're
like, Okay, we're gonna have ninety minutes and then this is what we're
gonna do and then you're done. No, can we create the space and
the time to allow those ideas to flow, and so I feel like that
in those ingredients of diversity environment where voice and opinions are welcome and time and
space can lead to more creativity and innovation. So we see this at our
work where we coach professionals at companies with frequency that they really struggle with creating
the right environment. As you're saying, right, I think they know and
understand the principles that you just outlined, and yet when they try to implement
them, it's you know, one of the most common things we see is
there's sort of this like aversion to confrontation in a way. And I don't
need confrontation, like people are yelling at each other, but but just simple
disagreement right in a professional setting that's expressed appropriately, right, and they sort
of draw back when they see that and feel it's bad or I'm threatened by
it or somebody's threatened by it. And without an honest environment, I mean
maybe bridge waterlies it one extreme of that honesty. But without that honest environment
where people can say some of the negative things again appropriately, but can actually
express those thoughts, it's really hard to create an open atmosphere right where the
freedom to express perhaps an unformed but creative or new idea can sort of happen.
Why is that struggle so acute? Has it always been so acute?
I think it probably has been because I think that that environment requires vulnerability,
requires people on the leader's part, on the leader's part to show that even
they can make mistakes or have an idea that's not great and that's okay.
Yeah, And I think that it's really hard for people to be vulnerable.
There's something weakness that's associated with that, and so leaders tend to shy away
from it, which means that people who they lead will shy away from it.
But I have found that the best leaders model that it's okay to make
mistakes, it's okay to have setbacks, because that's what makes us human,
and everyone wants to see and understand and believe it. They're working with people
who are human like them, like the same emotions they have others have.
So I think that if you add a dose of vulnerability and don't view it
as weakness but actually as strength, then that is a piece of what can
create even more innovative solutions. So I'm curious for your thoughts on this.
So I've worked at large and small companies, large, mid size and small
companies. One of them was a palaeer, you know, like a saw
valley. It was midsized by the time I got there, no longer startup,
and we would have I mean, endless numbers of senior management teams or
even middle management teams from large companies come through and visit us a Puntier among
other tech companies in the valley on sort of these innovation tours, like trying
to understand why Puntier and other companies in the valley are innovative and what's the
environment, like it's all and they would index in a sense on the wrong
thing, right, because they'd be like, oh, like football tables and
scooters and whatever. And it wasn't about that. It was more about leadership
and the sort of modality of the dialogue that would go on amongst teams.
What is it that big companies and leaders at big companies? Why is that
struggle so much more acute in those larger organizations, do you think than it
is in smaller ones or technology ones, or you know, however, it
is best to think about it. So to me, so much trust is
built in smaller interactions in one on one yep. And in a larger organization,
leaders are busy, have more direct reports, have more things going on,
So some of those one on ones just don't happen as much yea,
And so it's harder to develop that closeness or relationship that can be the foundation
for so much of the so many of the behaviors that we want to see,
right, I mean, you just don't have the time to pour into
people in a way that would make them feel like aligned and alive and able
to bring their full selves. So it's almost like a loss of fidelity in
a way in some ways. And so how do you, in spite of
the largest of an organization create those micro moments. Yeah, that's what needs
to happen. More of those need to happen for people to feel psychologically safe
in bringing themselves, bringing their ideas to the table. And it's hard,
it's really really hard. But you know the other thing is then if a
leader, if you have enough of the right people reporting to you, then
you can have that culture flow down into more of the one on ones,
of the direct reports and then of their direct reports. So but it needs
to start at the top first to then flow down. Yeah, is there
is there. You know, one of the things we like to use in
our coaching engagements with you know, anybody, individual or corporate employee is some
of the most robust and common used assessment tools around either personality or professional skills.
Right, And do you feel like even sometimes, you know, even
when leaders are the right type of personality and are demonstrating vulnerability as you said,
and creating the right culture and their teams, there can be a breakdown
somewhere further down the chain where you know, like the next set of managers
is not doing that, and is there almost a change in our corporate culture
that we need to help diagnose some of these almost like a lack of adequate
leadership qualities among some of those professionals and then actually address it, however a
company chooses to address it. Yeah, I don't think enough leaders understand the
basics of leadership. Leadership one oh one. Some of them have gone through
the ranks, so they've never had outside training. You know, some have
gone to business schools and others, which presumably I hope will have taught some
of those skills, But then you need to be reminded of those skills over
time, And so I just think there's a fundamental breakdown and how we train
in our organizations these leadership skills because some have never had them, some also
have had some have also had awful managers themselves, so they don't even have
a model of what a good leader looks like. So if we're operating with
so many of these different levels, then you need to level set through training
that really creates some core fundamental traits or behaviors that everyone aspiring to be a
leader should have. And I take that back, not even everyone aspiring to
a leader. Everyone should have any zibbit to be able to be an effective
leader at the organization. So that's where we're failing. We're not reminding people
regularly what they need to need to do to be effective. And how do
you think people should organizations should do that? Is it training, coaching,
an open discussion about exactly these skills and qualities that needs to happen with greater
frequency. Yes. I also think that it needs to be customized training too,
because sometimes we think we can do this off the shelf, staff or
whatever. Know what is unique about our organization, and how can we create
something and tailor it towards the things that are unique about our organization, you
know, I mean it kind of reminds me of like implicit biased training everyone
learned, you know, Okay, we have issues with diversity, we need
to be let's biased, so let's have let's do biased training. Well,
what kind of biased training is right for your Is it biased training that's right
for your organization? Are there other elements of DI that need to be fixed
first before you delve deeper into that? So I think we need to be
better in our organizations at diagnosing what is needed and then customizing in a unique
way. And the funny thing is that sounds obvious. Yes it does,
but it's not done as much as it should be. And you mentioned,
you know, feedback systems like performance evaluations, and these processes are still not
done well in most organizations. So we need to align that leadership development training
with what people are receiving in performance management systems and then hold people accountable for
that. All of those systems are broken down in most of our organizations,
so that's one of the big challenges fixing these broken systems totally. So I'm
glad you brought up bias because this is obviously being a focus of yours and
I think you know, there's an increasing awareness of it in our society and
kind of dialogue and discussion of institutional biases, whether it's you know, in
the police or in a hospital or whatever. Tell us a little bit about
that work and what some of your insights are from it. So you know,
a lot of this work is about trying to help organizations be more inclusive.
Yeah, and at the individual level, I think it starts with the
self. I think it starts at the individual, yea. And the first
thing is recognizing that we are all biased. Yes, we're all in the
society where there are myriad biases we soak in in what we read and what
we watch, in what we experience on the street. And so I think
the biggest thing people need to do is pay attention and notice their own biases.
That's the first step. And then once you recognize that at what some
of these are, then being able to say, okay, now let me
not behave in a discriminatory way, and then taking it to the next level
and saying, okay, well, what are some systems and processes that we
have in place that could end up allowing bias to come creep creep in,
And so that but starting with the self, single most important thing, single
most important thing. Yeah, And I study this stuff and I'm biased all
the time, and I have to say to myself, I'm not a bad
person for it. I'm human. But I would be a bad person if
I didn't recognize it first and then do something about it. Right, So,
how do you think like everyday individuals? How do everyday individuals develop a
greater awareness of their own biases? Do you think? Or how how can
we encourage that? Yeah? So much of it is about every interest action
you have. We have tons of interactions on a daily basis. Who do
I say hi to? And who don't I? Who do I ignore?
And why? Whose name do I know? In my organization? This is
my big one for me. I try very hard to know the names of
every single custodian or whatever that works on my floor, right because if I
because they deserve to have their name known. I mean, it's the most
basic recognition, absolutely basic recognition. Yeah, but if you ask most people,
they would not know. And I see their eyes light up when I
say, Hey, Lawrence, how are you? Hey? Balsas are and
I write it down. I'm not I don't have a great memory, so
I write it down in my top drawer so that if someone comes in and
is like cleaning the garbage or something, I can remember their name. So
can we just start there we're biased and whose information we choose to care about.
Yeah, it's the most simple starting point. I love that. Thank
you? So would you be? Last question? And this one focuses on
another often repeated word in our cultural moment, stress. Some of your research
is focused on how organizational environments and gender stress and how it influences both individual
and organizational performance. You ended up implementing some of your research real time to
work with Chris Hemsworth on the Netflix show Limitless, National Geographic, National Geographic.
Sorry I stand correct, Yes, you ended up implementing some of your
research real time to work with Chris Hemsworth in the National Geographic show Limitless.
Are we more stressed than we've ever been before? Or are we just talking
about it more? Or what are the drivers? Do you think? I
think some of our stress there are more things that we have on our plates
these days than before that then lead to us being more stressed. Whether it's
the fact that you are always on and you can always check your email,
that people can ask you for anything from anywhere who you've never even met.
Then you know, yes, from an economy standpoint, there have been ups
and downs, but the wealth gap is huge, which means that they're financially
they're more stressed for some people than others. Things are generally super expensive now,
so we just have more, and when you have more, there's more
of an opportunity to be stressed out by more things. So it's not that
it wasn't something that existed before, it's just the volume, the year volume
of opportunities we have to be stressed is more these days. Absolutely fair.
But the first part of what you said that you know there's just things coming
at us all the time with constancy, is that a self regulation issue?
Like, yes, we all have phones, but we can also make active
decisions not to look at our phones, or how do you think about that?
I think that there are these societal norms, regardless of whether your personality
can kind of overcome it or self regulation abilities, that kind of say you
should always be on and available there. And so unless we buck that norm
and say it's okay to not respond or what is or we change what timely
is versus not, or we respect people's boundaries. If we do that,
then it'll allow for more people to engage in self regulatory practices that are more
helpful. But yeah, I'm sorry. Most of us when we email somebody,
we want them to respond pretty quickly. Right, fair, absolutely fair,
Which is unfortunate because that means that no one is breathing. People aren't
breathing, they're constantly on and so learning how to turn off. But not
only that, though, because that is painting a picture of the stress is
a bad thing. I think it's ultimately about knowing the type of stress that
you need that can help you rise to the occasion, and knowing the type
of stress that can make you kind of buckle and not perform at your best
yea, and again to the point of knowing yourself. Once we get better
at understanding what situations lead us to be less effective at where stress is debilitating
versus the situations where stress is enhancing. If we can self diagnose, then
that will help us in adjusting to our ever present stress. That makes a
ton of sense, you know, with so many things, you'll hear the
prior generations say about the next generation. Oh there's so much smarter, Oh
there's so much more technologically adept Oh, they do so many more things.
Do you think self awareness is also increasing and evolving in a positive way for
future generations or with each successive generation. I think it is with each successive
generation. I'm so happy about that because I think that prior generations it was
kind of like you just do when you survive and you make it happen.
You don't need to find joy in your job, you don't have to find
joy in your life. You just like survive, get it done, get
it done. And you know, I would like to say that my generation
is kind of like, wait a minute, but all of you in that
prior generation aren't that happy. So what do we need to do in our
generation to be happier? And that has come with look inward, and now
look inward and take advantage of resources, therapy, coaching, whatever that can
help you look inward. Yea. And now that's a norm or more of
a norm for the younger generations who have the capacity to take advantage of those
resources. Absolutely, so it is getting better and better in some ways.
But what we need to also do is level the playing field so that everybody
has acted. It's actually accessible, yes, because we all need to better
understand all of the mess and beauty that's in here in these minds. That's
a great note to end on. Thank you so much for joining us.
Todare my pleasure. It was a treat. Thanks for having me on.
Thank you, thanks for listening. Please subscribe wherever you listen and leave us
a review. Find your ideal coach at www dot vidmx dot com. Special
thanks to our producer Martin Maluski and singer songwriter Doug Allen.