WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:05.599 Successful individuals use coaching and mentorship to help them unlock their potential. Not all 2 00:00:05.639 --> 00:00:09.560 coaches are created equal, and that's why we work with the top five percent 3 00:00:09.599 --> 00:00:12.759 of coaches at IDEMICS. Welcome to coaches you need. Brought to you by 4 00:00:12.800 --> 00:00:22.199 Idemics. Today, we're in conversation with Professor Medupe Akinola. She's a professor 5 00:00:22.239 --> 00:00:28.000 at Columbia Business School whose research has focused on stress, diversity, and biases 6 00:00:28.000 --> 00:00:33.079 in the workplace. She's written extensively on these topics in publications like The New 7 00:00:33.159 --> 00:00:39.719 York Times, NPR, Wired, among others. Her co authored Sunday New 8 00:00:39.799 --> 00:00:46.439 York Times op ed titled Professors or Prejudice Too with Dolly Chu and Katherine Milkman, 9 00:00:46.560 --> 00:00:50.880 was one of the top twenty most emailed, read, tweeted, chaired 10 00:00:51.039 --> 00:00:56.679 articles the weekend it was published. She consults for various organizations, among which 11 00:00:56.799 --> 00:01:02.280 our police departments across the US, advising on their reform efforts. And apart 12 00:01:02.359 --> 00:01:07.560 from her extensive academic qualifications, she's worked in consulting, finance, and in 13 00:01:07.599 --> 00:01:11.799 the nonprofit world along her path to where she is now one of the most 14 00:01:11.879 --> 00:01:15.760 highly rated professors at Columbia Business School. We'll try not to hold that against 15 00:01:15.760 --> 00:01:19.840 her, despite being a Harvard University at a Harvard Business School grad, that 16 00:01:19.920 --> 00:01:23.879 she's chosen to teach at Columbia. Would you'd be welcome to the show. 17 00:01:23.079 --> 00:01:26.319 Thanks so much for having me. It's really good to be here. So 18 00:01:26.400 --> 00:01:36.079 would With your background in psychology, your research sits at the intersection of organizational 19 00:01:36.079 --> 00:01:41.599 efficiency and change, psychology and human behavior. You've done so many different things 20 00:01:41.719 --> 00:01:46.040 leading up to becoming a professor at Columbia Business School. Is this where you 21 00:01:46.120 --> 00:01:49.000 thought you'd end up, even as you're working at being consulting or on a 22 00:01:49.040 --> 00:01:55.280 nonprofit project in Ghana. Here's the funny thing. I was a psychology major 23 00:01:55.439 --> 00:02:00.719 undergrad, and I took a course on the psychology of organization, and I 24 00:02:00.799 --> 00:02:07.040 even took my gre junior year in college thinking that I wanted to be a 25 00:02:07.079 --> 00:02:10.560 professor. Okay, The amazing thing for me on my journey was I also 26 00:02:10.599 --> 00:02:15.680 did business stuff on campus, like Harvard stun agencies all that. And I 27 00:02:15.719 --> 00:02:17.439 had a mentor who was a business school professor who, when I said I 28 00:02:17.439 --> 00:02:20.159 think I want to be a business school professor, was like, no, 29 00:02:20.479 --> 00:02:23.319 do the business stuff do that? You know? So I was kind of 30 00:02:23.319 --> 00:02:25.400 like, you're right, Maybe I will try a different path because I love 31 00:02:25.719 --> 00:02:29.680 the business side of things too. And at that point I was like, 32 00:02:29.759 --> 00:02:35.120 I'll get my PhD when I'm in my fifties or sixties. Eventually I ended 33 00:02:35.199 --> 00:02:38.759 up getting my PhD sooner than that, and that led me on this path. 34 00:02:38.840 --> 00:02:44.879 But there's nothing like getting guidance from mentors, having mentors, getting guidance 35 00:02:44.919 --> 00:02:47.879 from them in terms of shaping your path. But you know, there's certain 36 00:02:47.879 --> 00:02:52.680 things that you do prior, whether it's in college, whether it's in your 37 00:02:52.800 --> 00:02:58.039 extracurriculars, that light you up. Pay attention to those because that might be 38 00:02:58.120 --> 00:03:01.960 something you do later or even than you think. Yeah, it's it's fascinating. 39 00:03:02.000 --> 00:03:07.840 I think that you know, we go through our high school, college, 40 00:03:07.080 --> 00:03:12.159 grad school, you know, early working years, sort of not cognizant 41 00:03:12.199 --> 00:03:15.520 of that in a way. Yeah, And and sometime towards the end of 42 00:03:15.560 --> 00:03:19.879 the twenties early thirties, there's this sort of realization of, Gosh, I 43 00:03:19.960 --> 00:03:24.879 really loved doing that thing or that set of things, and listening to those 44 00:03:24.919 --> 00:03:30.400 instincts I think is so critical to them sort of the future. I think 45 00:03:30.439 --> 00:03:35.080 that's so right. And also having friends who give you guidance and advice to 46 00:03:35.120 --> 00:03:39.080 you because they've watched you in the things that make give you joy. And 47 00:03:39.120 --> 00:03:42.759 it's funny because I know we were talking about a friend we have in common 48 00:03:43.280 --> 00:03:46.719 from business school. I remember the year that I was applying to business school 49 00:03:47.000 --> 00:03:53.719 to get my PhD. Right, I happened to touch base with her and 50 00:03:53.759 --> 00:03:55.800 she was like, I had a dream the other day that you were a 51 00:03:55.800 --> 00:04:01.000 professor. Huh. So you never know what little things are happening in the 52 00:04:01.120 --> 00:04:04.479 universe to guide you along your path. So it's like pay attention, pay 53 00:04:04.520 --> 00:04:10.360 attention, totally look out for the signs. Yeah. Yeah, So part 54 00:04:10.400 --> 00:04:16.160 of your research has focused on how setbacks can often spur us forward. I 55 00:04:16.199 --> 00:04:19.959 want to take a quick look at this video where you describe some of your 56 00:04:20.000 --> 00:04:27.519 research. But if they tell us a little bit about how you develop the 57 00:04:27.600 --> 00:04:30.240 study, what got you interested in the topic, how you design the study. 58 00:04:30.360 --> 00:04:33.519 Yeah, So there was a lot of research out there that was like, 59 00:04:34.000 --> 00:04:39.319 you know, it's bad to be in a bad mood in terms of 60 00:04:39.319 --> 00:04:42.319 being creative. You know, you need to be in a good mood and 61 00:04:42.399 --> 00:04:45.360 a positive mood and all that. And I can think of a lot of 62 00:04:45.439 --> 00:04:48.720 times in my journey where I wasn't in a positive mood, but some creative 63 00:04:48.759 --> 00:04:53.920 things came out, and so we kind of set out to better understand what 64 00:04:54.079 --> 00:04:58.480 is this link between mood and creativity? And we know from the video that 65 00:04:59.040 --> 00:05:03.759 lots of creative p ball often suffered from negative mood related disorders, but then 66 00:05:03.800 --> 00:05:06.920 we're very creative, so what is it? And so in this work, 67 00:05:06.959 --> 00:05:12.000 the idea was to kind of unpack that and to look at your biology, 68 00:05:12.560 --> 00:05:16.199 which, when coupled with situations, can then affect your creativity. And the 69 00:05:16.240 --> 00:05:19.279 big thing we found is that, yeah, when do you have a negative 70 00:05:19.279 --> 00:05:26.240 mood triggering situation and you might be more sensitive to that, That's when people 71 00:05:26.279 --> 00:05:32.160 created the most amazing collages. So it's just a reminder that sometimes that negative 72 00:05:32.279 --> 00:05:38.399 mood, creativity offers an opportunity to repair that, right, And so when 73 00:05:38.439 --> 00:05:41.279 I think about that in everyday life, one question is, Yeah, when 74 00:05:41.279 --> 00:05:46.079 you're feeling down or whatever, what is something that you can channel that negativity 75 00:05:46.199 --> 00:05:51.639 into that can lead to some kind of creative output that might be useful for 76 00:05:51.720 --> 00:05:57.120 whatever it is you're struggling with. So that was one of the origin of 77 00:05:57.160 --> 00:06:00.279 that work and what I take from it, Yeah, No, it's I 78 00:06:00.279 --> 00:06:05.439 think we live in a world where it's sort of a little bit the age 79 00:06:05.439 --> 00:06:09.560 of instant gratification. Right, So it's sort of, oh, I'm not 80 00:06:09.639 --> 00:06:12.680 in a good mood, or oh I'm feeling negative or or I'm feeling anxious 81 00:06:12.759 --> 00:06:17.199 or whatever, and that's not a good thing, right, is sort of 82 00:06:17.240 --> 00:06:24.839 the very common perception when the reality is like everyone goes through those cycles, 83 00:06:24.920 --> 00:06:30.439 and the question is really what you do with that, right and can you 84 00:06:30.519 --> 00:06:34.360 channel it productively to kind of learn from those experiences and then get to a 85 00:06:34.360 --> 00:06:40.399 better place. Absolutely, I like to remind myself and others we were given 86 00:06:40.439 --> 00:06:45.759 this range of emotions for a reason. We have been given anxiety, so 87 00:06:45.839 --> 00:06:48.639 like, it's not that we're supposed to suppress it. You're supposed to experience 88 00:06:48.680 --> 00:06:53.000 it and then ask yourself, Okay, well why am I feeling this way? 89 00:06:53.040 --> 00:06:57.560 Now? Why do these situations cause me to feel this way? And 90 00:06:57.600 --> 00:07:00.800 what can I do about it? Instead of being like, go away, 91 00:07:00.839 --> 00:07:02.519 go away? Oh why am I anxious? This is bad? Is no, 92 00:07:02.959 --> 00:07:06.839 recognize it and accept it and then do something with it. And I 93 00:07:06.839 --> 00:07:13.480 hope that we start teaching kids this at younger ages because I think that might 94 00:07:13.600 --> 00:07:17.040 lead to more healthy behaviors. Totally, No, absolutely. I think I 95 00:07:17.759 --> 00:07:24.160 start to think about Lisa Demorris work, would you I'm sure seeing and and 96 00:07:24.920 --> 00:07:29.240 I remember when my girls were starting to, you know, kind of experience 97 00:07:29.279 --> 00:07:33.079 some of those anxieties they're going to a talk by her reading her book. 98 00:07:33.560 --> 00:07:39.480 You know, it was sort of help your child as a parent to understand 99 00:07:39.600 --> 00:07:43.639 what they're feeling and going through rather than saying, oh, don't be anxious 100 00:07:43.720 --> 00:07:46.959 or oh don't be stressed, right, you know, because these are all 101 00:07:46.240 --> 00:07:51.279 practical realities of our live lives exactly, and when we deny these things and 102 00:07:51.319 --> 00:07:56.160 these experiences, then it sends the signal that it's bad when it's not. 103 00:07:56.720 --> 00:08:00.879 Yeah, So I think taking that advice for ourselves and for the young people 104 00:08:00.920 --> 00:08:05.879 in our lives is critical. Yeah. Absolutely so. In terms of the 105 00:08:05.959 --> 00:08:13.759 practical implications of how individuals translate your research findings into specific behaviors in a corporate 106 00:08:13.800 --> 00:08:20.360 context or any kind of business context, how do you think you know, 107 00:08:20.399 --> 00:08:28.959 any of us as individuals leading teams or in any kind of leadership role should 108 00:08:28.360 --> 00:08:35.039 sort of balance the positive and negative feedback we give people. Yeah, it's 109 00:08:35.080 --> 00:08:39.519 such an important question. I think the first thing is understand your people. 110 00:08:39.960 --> 00:08:43.639 Yep, know that certain people react in certain ways the types of feedback. 111 00:08:45.200 --> 00:08:48.600 So there might be somebody who's like, stop sugarcoating and telling me all the 112 00:08:48.600 --> 00:08:50.960 positive things first, Let's get to the negative, then get to the positive. 113 00:08:52.639 --> 00:08:56.879 Other people are like, please give me that positive reinforcement first, because 114 00:08:56.879 --> 00:09:00.159 then that will help me receive the negative because I'm already thinking about the next. 115 00:09:00.720 --> 00:09:05.200 So to the extent that we get to learn what each person needs and 116 00:09:05.360 --> 00:09:09.759 cater our feedback to that or the processes we engage in, then that will 117 00:09:09.799 --> 00:09:13.879 be better for them. And I don't think that people have that sensitivity as 118 00:09:13.000 --> 00:09:16.960 leaders. And if you develop that, I think not only will it help 119 00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:20.720 people receive what you have to say, that then will lead to them progressing, 120 00:09:22.120 --> 00:09:26.799 staying being motivated by you and I'm doing even better at their job one 121 00:09:26.039 --> 00:09:31.360 d P. I mean we experience this in our business here. An idea 122 00:09:31.399 --> 00:09:35.720 makes all the time, right, Like, the skills that put people into 123 00:09:35.879 --> 00:09:41.200 leadership roles are then not the skills that they require to be effective leaders. 124 00:09:41.279 --> 00:09:46.440 And probably the number one skill is sort of evolving their communication style, right, 125 00:09:46.480 --> 00:09:50.120 you know, kind of knowing your audience as you were just saying, 126 00:09:50.000 --> 00:09:58.960 understanding that different personalities require a different mode of communication, right, and that 127 00:09:58.039 --> 00:10:05.360 transition. A lot of people struggle to make right and need sort of something, 128 00:10:05.480 --> 00:10:09.240 whether it's you know, some kind of learning mechanism, whether that's mentorship. 129 00:10:09.519 --> 00:10:16.279 In our case, it's coaching to really understand how to change those behaviors 130 00:10:16.320 --> 00:10:18.919 in themselves and then implement them by their team. Right. And I mean, 131 00:10:20.159 --> 00:10:24.240 what a couple of things that I always remind my students when I teach 132 00:10:24.279 --> 00:10:28.080 about being effective leaders is different people need different things at different times. Yeah. 133 00:10:28.399 --> 00:10:33.240 And also that we have these egocentric tendencies where we think that everyone's just 134 00:10:33.399 --> 00:10:35.639 like I am. Right, so the way I want to receive feedback is 135 00:10:35.639 --> 00:10:39.879 the way they know or that they're just like each other. Yea. No. 136 00:10:39.320 --> 00:10:43.720 And so to the extent that we remember that this is not the case, 137 00:10:43.519 --> 00:10:48.759 the better off will be one hundred. Let's shift gears a little bit 138 00:10:48.840 --> 00:10:54.679 and talk about failure, another topic You've spent a lot of your time working 139 00:10:54.720 --> 00:11:01.759 with. One of your the insights from some of your work is that failure 140 00:11:01.799 --> 00:11:07.840 is a positive practice right for life. And you chair the board of your 141 00:11:07.840 --> 00:11:11.080 alma mater, the Barley School, one of the best girls schools in the 142 00:11:11.120 --> 00:11:16.600 country. That my girls have been privileged to attend, and even they're despite 143 00:11:16.159 --> 00:11:22.279 a constant effort I think at the school to talk openly about the importance of 144 00:11:22.360 --> 00:11:30.240 failure, admitting failure, discussing it, and learning from it, it often 145 00:11:30.440 --> 00:11:37.799 feels quite monumental for today's young adults. Right, share your thoughts with us 146 00:11:37.840 --> 00:11:43.480 on this. Is there something that's changed? Is what's shifted? Well? 147 00:11:43.759 --> 00:11:50.960 I think that the problem or the challenge is that we as older adults are 148 00:11:50.000 --> 00:11:54.919 not used to that, used to understanding that, and so part of it 149 00:11:54.960 --> 00:12:00.320 is that we're passing that along but then asking them to shift right. So 150 00:12:00.440 --> 00:12:03.480 how can we get used to this ourselves as adults? And the funny story 151 00:12:03.519 --> 00:12:07.759 about this, I just was with classmates of mind from Brierley, Yea and 152 00:12:09.240 --> 00:12:13.840 one of them has a child that goes to Breally and she mentioned that she 153 00:12:13.919 --> 00:12:18.000 was going to a birthday party and her daughter had written a card to the 154 00:12:18.399 --> 00:12:22.799 young person and she'd crossed out and messed up a word and crossed it out. 155 00:12:22.120 --> 00:12:26.240 And my friend was horrified, like, you're gonna say, you're gonna 156 00:12:26.279 --> 00:12:30.159 give that card but the crossed out letters to your friend and she needs to 157 00:12:30.240 --> 00:12:33.159 pause and be like, no, that's okay, totally mistakes are okay, 158 00:12:33.559 --> 00:12:37.519 And I bet you there are enough parents who are not pausing and they're being 159 00:12:37.559 --> 00:12:39.639 like, no, no, no, here's a new card, write the 160 00:12:39.679 --> 00:12:45.720 new one. Yeah. So, I think that the beauty of interacting with 161 00:12:46.159 --> 00:12:50.840 other humans at different age levels is to be a mirror and to watch yourself 162 00:12:50.919 --> 00:12:54.600 and to say, wait, why did that trigger me? And what does 163 00:12:54.639 --> 00:12:58.399 that mean? I need to change in myself to potentially not be triggered by 164 00:12:58.399 --> 00:13:01.000 that. If we do that more, then I think the younger generations are 165 00:13:01.000 --> 00:13:05.120 going to be even more accepting of this idea of failure in okay with it, 166 00:13:05.759 --> 00:13:09.080 knowing that it's just a part of life. You're so right, I 167 00:13:09.120 --> 00:13:15.279 mean, I think these behaviors with children and young adults in particular are all 168 00:13:15.399 --> 00:13:20.720 learned behaviors and learned reactions right that come from I mean, their teachers, 169 00:13:20.799 --> 00:13:26.120 their parents, really adults they interact with the most in their lives. And 170 00:13:26.120 --> 00:13:31.039 if we're just simply not role modeling the right kind of behaviors, then it's 171 00:13:31.120 --> 00:13:35.360 unsurprising that they've become very anxious about failure, yes, and admitting and sharing, 172 00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:39.240 like, here's where I miss something up too. I think we hold 173 00:13:39.279 --> 00:13:43.840 it in so much and then that prevents the learning that can happen that then 174 00:13:43.919 --> 00:13:50.679 leads to change behaviors. Yeah, makes a ton of sense. So one 175 00:13:50.679 --> 00:13:54.879 of the things we've touched upon in various ways in our conversation up until this 176 00:13:54.960 --> 00:14:01.320 point is learning, mentorship, coaching. What does that play in your life. 177 00:14:01.799 --> 00:14:07.000 I feel like I'm a constant learner. I like to constantly be in 178 00:14:07.039 --> 00:14:13.200 that mode, that mindset. I like to constantly be in that mode and 179 00:14:13.360 --> 00:14:18.559 mindset of being coachable. Yeah. So I do a lot of coaching. 180 00:14:18.679 --> 00:14:22.720 Obviously, I have, you know, my students, the clients I work 181 00:14:22.799 --> 00:14:26.679 with and all that, and but so much of the coaching that I do 182 00:14:26.600 --> 00:14:31.399 teaches me about myself too, And so I think the best coaches are able 183 00:14:31.519 --> 00:14:37.759 to kind of integrate in a unique way and not just impose their perspective, 184 00:14:37.159 --> 00:14:41.759 but also listen. Yeah. I think the best thing we need to do 185 00:14:41.840 --> 00:14:48.360 as coaches and in being coached is to listen one hundred percent. Yeah, 186 00:14:48.399 --> 00:14:52.679 and to treat it as as as a learning process for ourselves as much as 187 00:14:52.720 --> 00:14:54.440 it is for the other person, as we kind of take them on this 188 00:14:54.519 --> 00:15:01.000 journey of self discovery. Right. Otherwise, you are for that process for 189 00:15:01.039 --> 00:15:03.600 them because often as a coach, you kind of know or you feel like 190 00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:11.240 you know the answer, and so to have somebody walk through it themselves and 191 00:15:11.320 --> 00:15:16.559 get to that place is even more rewarding for them as well as for you. 192 00:15:16.639 --> 00:15:20.840 But it's hard because we like to impose our perspectives on others well. 193 00:15:20.879 --> 00:15:24.559 And we also you know, there's almost a societal value system around tell me 194 00:15:24.639 --> 00:15:30.120 what to do right, right, or tell somebody what to do, and 195 00:15:31.399 --> 00:15:35.320 that's viewed as in some sense as solution right, like the sort of quick 196 00:15:35.360 --> 00:15:39.919 fix or the free launch or whatever. But there isn't one really right, 197 00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:45.360 because you hear and are told or all sorts of things kind of every day 198 00:15:45.399 --> 00:15:50.159 of our lives, but we don't internalize them until we do them right in 199 00:15:50.200 --> 00:15:54.159 a way. Yeah, you know, you just made me think about something 200 00:15:54.200 --> 00:16:00.960 that I am practicing more of, which is to ask people what they want 201 00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:04.440 when they ask me for what do you need right now? What kind of 202 00:16:04.519 --> 00:16:07.639 friend, coach mentor do you want me to be? Do you want me 203 00:16:07.679 --> 00:16:11.559 to be the one that's like telling you what to do? Do you want 204 00:16:11.559 --> 00:16:14.879 me to just listen? What do you want? And I think that that 205 00:16:15.240 --> 00:16:18.000 is helpful because I often don't think we know what we want, right, 206 00:16:18.200 --> 00:16:23.440 So forcing somebody to actually think that through is one of the most important steps 207 00:16:23.440 --> 00:16:29.240 I think in a coaching process. Totally. That's such a great point actually, 208 00:16:29.279 --> 00:16:33.759 because I've you know, sometimes struggled with this with my teenage children, 209 00:16:33.919 --> 00:16:37.159 where they sort of, you know, will come to me with a problem 210 00:16:37.200 --> 00:16:41.039 and my immediate instinct just like I see a problem, provide a solution, 211 00:16:41.200 --> 00:16:45.480 right, and asking them the question of you know, do you want a 212 00:16:45.480 --> 00:16:49.159 solution? Do you want me to just listen? Do you want? What 213 00:16:49.360 --> 00:16:52.879 is it that you want? And I need this time? Right? Yeah, 214 00:16:53.440 --> 00:17:00.519 it's okay. Creativity and innovation, Yes, these are perhaps the most 215 00:17:00.600 --> 00:17:06.000 often repeated words in organizations, among leadership teams. Just a few weeks ago, 216 00:17:06.119 --> 00:17:08.359 actually, we were in conversation here with Amy Edmondson, who's focused some 217 00:17:08.480 --> 00:17:15.720 of her research on psychological safety. Tell us your thoughts on creating the right 218 00:17:15.920 --> 00:17:23.440 environment to encourage and boost creativity and innovation. So it's interesting because when you 219 00:17:23.519 --> 00:17:30.160 ask that, the first thing I thought was is it creating the right environment 220 00:17:30.200 --> 00:17:36.119 in general? And then this creativity and innovation comes and so the first thing 221 00:17:36.119 --> 00:17:41.359 that came to mind was can we have an environment where people are different on 222 00:17:41.519 --> 00:17:47.640 many dimensions, whether it's their thinking styles, whether it's their demographics like race, 223 00:17:47.720 --> 00:17:53.599 ethnicity, gender, whether it's their backgrounds, whatever area they're in in 224 00:17:53.640 --> 00:17:57.839 an organization. So if we bring diversity to the table, I think that 225 00:17:57.920 --> 00:18:03.400 there's tons of research showing that that can lead to greater or more innovative solutions 226 00:18:03.400 --> 00:18:06.599 because people with different ideas are then bringing them to the table. Yeah, 227 00:18:06.799 --> 00:18:08.720 but that doesn't lead to creativity on its own, because when people are different, 228 00:18:08.759 --> 00:18:12.680 you know that that can lead to conflict because everyone is so has different 229 00:18:12.680 --> 00:18:18.200 opinions and all that. So it's on the leader to create the environment that 230 00:18:18.319 --> 00:18:22.720 then allows for the creativity to come out and the conflict to be diminished. 231 00:18:23.160 --> 00:18:29.119 And that means creating an environment where people feel like their voice matters, where 232 00:18:29.160 --> 00:18:33.440 they can speak freely, where they are listened to, where they are not 233 00:18:33.680 --> 00:18:41.920 interrupted, where they're building off each other, where there's enough space and time. 234 00:18:41.440 --> 00:18:45.519 Because these days, I'm worried we're so rushed in our meetings. We're 235 00:18:45.519 --> 00:18:48.759 like, Okay, we're gonna have ninety minutes and then this is what we're 236 00:18:48.759 --> 00:18:52.000 gonna do and then you're done. No, can we create the space and 237 00:18:52.039 --> 00:18:56.599 the time to allow those ideas to flow, and so I feel like that 238 00:18:56.720 --> 00:19:04.319 in those ingredients of diversity environment where voice and opinions are welcome and time and 239 00:19:04.400 --> 00:19:11.519 space can lead to more creativity and innovation. So we see this at our 240 00:19:11.519 --> 00:19:21.880 work where we coach professionals at companies with frequency that they really struggle with creating 241 00:19:21.880 --> 00:19:26.160 the right environment. As you're saying, right, I think they know and 242 00:19:26.319 --> 00:19:34.319 understand the principles that you just outlined, and yet when they try to implement 243 00:19:34.400 --> 00:19:38.680 them, it's you know, one of the most common things we see is 244 00:19:38.839 --> 00:19:42.960 there's sort of this like aversion to confrontation in a way. And I don't 245 00:19:42.960 --> 00:19:47.359 need confrontation, like people are yelling at each other, but but just simple 246 00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:55.240 disagreement right in a professional setting that's expressed appropriately, right, and they sort 247 00:19:55.279 --> 00:20:00.319 of draw back when they see that and feel it's bad or I'm threatened by 248 00:20:00.359 --> 00:20:07.640 it or somebody's threatened by it. And without an honest environment, I mean 249 00:20:07.759 --> 00:20:14.160 maybe bridge waterlies it one extreme of that honesty. But without that honest environment 250 00:20:14.240 --> 00:20:21.480 where people can say some of the negative things again appropriately, but can actually 251 00:20:21.519 --> 00:20:29.000 express those thoughts, it's really hard to create an open atmosphere right where the 252 00:20:29.119 --> 00:20:34.799 freedom to express perhaps an unformed but creative or new idea can sort of happen. 253 00:20:37.240 --> 00:20:40.559 Why is that struggle so acute? Has it always been so acute? 254 00:20:41.640 --> 00:20:48.599 I think it probably has been because I think that that environment requires vulnerability, 255 00:20:48.839 --> 00:20:55.880 requires people on the leader's part, on the leader's part to show that even 256 00:20:56.000 --> 00:21:02.400 they can make mistakes or have an idea that's not great and that's okay. 257 00:21:02.359 --> 00:21:06.839 Yeah, And I think that it's really hard for people to be vulnerable. 258 00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:11.680 There's something weakness that's associated with that, and so leaders tend to shy away 259 00:21:11.720 --> 00:21:15.559 from it, which means that people who they lead will shy away from it. 260 00:21:17.119 --> 00:21:22.680 But I have found that the best leaders model that it's okay to make 261 00:21:22.720 --> 00:21:26.400 mistakes, it's okay to have setbacks, because that's what makes us human, 262 00:21:26.759 --> 00:21:32.440 and everyone wants to see and understand and believe it. They're working with people 263 00:21:32.440 --> 00:21:34.720 who are human like them, like the same emotions they have others have. 264 00:21:36.079 --> 00:21:40.200 So I think that if you add a dose of vulnerability and don't view it 265 00:21:40.240 --> 00:21:45.200 as weakness but actually as strength, then that is a piece of what can 266 00:21:45.279 --> 00:21:51.559 create even more innovative solutions. So I'm curious for your thoughts on this. 267 00:21:51.680 --> 00:21:56.160 So I've worked at large and small companies, large, mid size and small 268 00:21:56.200 --> 00:21:59.920 companies. One of them was a palaeer, you know, like a saw 269 00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:02.960 valley. It was midsized by the time I got there, no longer startup, 270 00:22:03.640 --> 00:22:11.920 and we would have I mean, endless numbers of senior management teams or 271 00:22:11.960 --> 00:22:18.240 even middle management teams from large companies come through and visit us a Puntier among 272 00:22:18.359 --> 00:22:22.000 other tech companies in the valley on sort of these innovation tours, like trying 273 00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:26.720 to understand why Puntier and other companies in the valley are innovative and what's the 274 00:22:26.759 --> 00:22:32.000 environment, like it's all and they would index in a sense on the wrong 275 00:22:32.039 --> 00:22:36.079 thing, right, because they'd be like, oh, like football tables and 276 00:22:36.160 --> 00:22:41.759 scooters and whatever. And it wasn't about that. It was more about leadership 277 00:22:42.480 --> 00:22:49.039 and the sort of modality of the dialogue that would go on amongst teams. 278 00:22:51.799 --> 00:22:56.480 What is it that big companies and leaders at big companies? Why is that 279 00:22:56.519 --> 00:23:00.759 struggle so much more acute in those larger organizations, do you think than it 280 00:23:00.839 --> 00:23:07.240 is in smaller ones or technology ones, or you know, however, it 281 00:23:07.319 --> 00:23:12.599 is best to think about it. So to me, so much trust is 282 00:23:12.839 --> 00:23:21.279 built in smaller interactions in one on one yep. And in a larger organization, 283 00:23:22.200 --> 00:23:25.839 leaders are busy, have more direct reports, have more things going on, 284 00:23:26.319 --> 00:23:30.480 So some of those one on ones just don't happen as much yea, 285 00:23:30.759 --> 00:23:37.039 And so it's harder to develop that closeness or relationship that can be the foundation 286 00:23:38.759 --> 00:23:41.640 for so much of the so many of the behaviors that we want to see, 287 00:23:41.839 --> 00:23:45.599 right, I mean, you just don't have the time to pour into 288 00:23:45.640 --> 00:23:52.920 people in a way that would make them feel like aligned and alive and able 289 00:23:52.920 --> 00:23:56.119 to bring their full selves. So it's almost like a loss of fidelity in 290 00:23:56.119 --> 00:24:00.640 a way in some ways. And so how do you, in spite of 291 00:24:00.759 --> 00:24:06.559 the largest of an organization create those micro moments. Yeah, that's what needs 292 00:24:06.559 --> 00:24:11.119 to happen. More of those need to happen for people to feel psychologically safe 293 00:24:11.640 --> 00:24:15.480 in bringing themselves, bringing their ideas to the table. And it's hard, 294 00:24:17.079 --> 00:24:21.000 it's really really hard. But you know the other thing is then if a 295 00:24:21.160 --> 00:24:26.519 leader, if you have enough of the right people reporting to you, then 296 00:24:26.559 --> 00:24:33.640 you can have that culture flow down into more of the one on ones, 297 00:24:33.039 --> 00:24:37.680 of the direct reports and then of their direct reports. So but it needs 298 00:24:37.720 --> 00:24:41.680 to start at the top first to then flow down. Yeah, is there 299 00:24:41.880 --> 00:24:45.240 is there. You know, one of the things we like to use in 300 00:24:45.319 --> 00:24:55.359 our coaching engagements with you know, anybody, individual or corporate employee is some 301 00:24:55.559 --> 00:25:03.920 of the most robust and common used assessment tools around either personality or professional skills. 302 00:25:03.160 --> 00:25:11.640 Right, And do you feel like even sometimes, you know, even 303 00:25:11.720 --> 00:25:18.440 when leaders are the right type of personality and are demonstrating vulnerability as you said, 304 00:25:18.640 --> 00:25:22.720 and creating the right culture and their teams, there can be a breakdown 305 00:25:22.880 --> 00:25:30.759 somewhere further down the chain where you know, like the next set of managers 306 00:25:30.920 --> 00:25:36.880 is not doing that, and is there almost a change in our corporate culture 307 00:25:36.920 --> 00:25:44.839 that we need to help diagnose some of these almost like a lack of adequate 308 00:25:44.920 --> 00:25:49.680 leadership qualities among some of those professionals and then actually address it, however a 309 00:25:49.759 --> 00:25:59.079 company chooses to address it. Yeah, I don't think enough leaders understand the 310 00:25:59.119 --> 00:26:03.920 basics of leadership. Leadership one oh one. Some of them have gone through 311 00:26:03.920 --> 00:26:10.359 the ranks, so they've never had outside training. You know, some have 312 00:26:10.440 --> 00:26:14.200 gone to business schools and others, which presumably I hope will have taught some 313 00:26:14.279 --> 00:26:17.559 of those skills, But then you need to be reminded of those skills over 314 00:26:17.599 --> 00:26:21.839 time, And so I just think there's a fundamental breakdown and how we train 315 00:26:22.359 --> 00:26:27.400 in our organizations these leadership skills because some have never had them, some also 316 00:26:29.160 --> 00:26:33.799 have had some have also had awful managers themselves, so they don't even have 317 00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:38.400 a model of what a good leader looks like. So if we're operating with 318 00:26:38.559 --> 00:26:44.640 so many of these different levels, then you need to level set through training 319 00:26:45.279 --> 00:26:52.279 that really creates some core fundamental traits or behaviors that everyone aspiring to be a 320 00:26:52.359 --> 00:26:56.519 leader should have. And I take that back, not even everyone aspiring to 321 00:26:56.559 --> 00:27:02.759 a leader. Everyone should have any zibbit to be able to be an effective 322 00:27:02.799 --> 00:27:06.640 leader at the organization. So that's where we're failing. We're not reminding people 323 00:27:07.000 --> 00:27:11.599 regularly what they need to need to do to be effective. And how do 324 00:27:11.640 --> 00:27:15.839 you think people should organizations should do that? Is it training, coaching, 325 00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:19.680 an open discussion about exactly these skills and qualities that needs to happen with greater 326 00:27:19.759 --> 00:27:26.480 frequency. Yes. I also think that it needs to be customized training too, 327 00:27:26.960 --> 00:27:30.960 because sometimes we think we can do this off the shelf, staff or 328 00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:36.720 whatever. Know what is unique about our organization, and how can we create 329 00:27:36.799 --> 00:27:41.559 something and tailor it towards the things that are unique about our organization, you 330 00:27:41.599 --> 00:27:45.200 know, I mean it kind of reminds me of like implicit biased training everyone 331 00:27:45.319 --> 00:27:48.839 learned, you know, Okay, we have issues with diversity, we need 332 00:27:48.880 --> 00:27:52.240 to be let's biased, so let's have let's do biased training. Well, 333 00:27:52.319 --> 00:27:56.480 what kind of biased training is right for your Is it biased training that's right 334 00:27:56.519 --> 00:28:00.440 for your organization? Are there other elements of DI that need to be fixed 335 00:28:00.480 --> 00:28:04.759 first before you delve deeper into that? So I think we need to be 336 00:28:04.759 --> 00:28:10.920 better in our organizations at diagnosing what is needed and then customizing in a unique 337 00:28:10.920 --> 00:28:14.119 way. And the funny thing is that sounds obvious. Yes it does, 338 00:28:14.279 --> 00:28:18.759 but it's not done as much as it should be. And you mentioned, 339 00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:26.400 you know, feedback systems like performance evaluations, and these processes are still not 340 00:28:26.559 --> 00:28:32.960 done well in most organizations. So we need to align that leadership development training 341 00:28:33.319 --> 00:28:38.799 with what people are receiving in performance management systems and then hold people accountable for 342 00:28:38.839 --> 00:28:42.920 that. All of those systems are broken down in most of our organizations, 343 00:28:44.640 --> 00:28:49.200 so that's one of the big challenges fixing these broken systems totally. So I'm 344 00:28:49.200 --> 00:28:55.599 glad you brought up bias because this is obviously being a focus of yours and 345 00:28:56.720 --> 00:29:00.519 I think you know, there's an increasing awareness of it in our society and 346 00:29:02.119 --> 00:29:08.720 kind of dialogue and discussion of institutional biases, whether it's you know, in 347 00:29:08.799 --> 00:29:12.799 the police or in a hospital or whatever. Tell us a little bit about 348 00:29:12.839 --> 00:29:19.200 that work and what some of your insights are from it. So you know, 349 00:29:19.279 --> 00:29:25.599 a lot of this work is about trying to help organizations be more inclusive. 350 00:29:25.880 --> 00:29:30.880 Yeah, and at the individual level, I think it starts with the 351 00:29:30.960 --> 00:29:34.319 self. I think it starts at the individual, yea. And the first 352 00:29:34.359 --> 00:29:38.960 thing is recognizing that we are all biased. Yes, we're all in the 353 00:29:40.039 --> 00:29:45.359 society where there are myriad biases we soak in in what we read and what 354 00:29:45.400 --> 00:29:49.480 we watch, in what we experience on the street. And so I think 355 00:29:49.519 --> 00:29:56.519 the biggest thing people need to do is pay attention and notice their own biases. 356 00:29:56.559 --> 00:30:00.920 That's the first step. And then once you recognize that at what some 357 00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:03.640 of these are, then being able to say, okay, now let me 358 00:30:03.680 --> 00:30:07.720 not behave in a discriminatory way, and then taking it to the next level 359 00:30:07.759 --> 00:30:11.119 and saying, okay, well, what are some systems and processes that we 360 00:30:11.160 --> 00:30:18.160 have in place that could end up allowing bias to come creep creep in, 361 00:30:18.759 --> 00:30:22.799 And so that but starting with the self, single most important thing, single 362 00:30:22.839 --> 00:30:27.359 most important thing. Yeah, And I study this stuff and I'm biased all 363 00:30:27.400 --> 00:30:30.160 the time, and I have to say to myself, I'm not a bad 364 00:30:30.200 --> 00:30:34.519 person for it. I'm human. But I would be a bad person if 365 00:30:34.519 --> 00:30:40.039 I didn't recognize it first and then do something about it. Right, So, 366 00:30:40.079 --> 00:30:48.000 how do you think like everyday individuals? How do everyday individuals develop a 367 00:30:48.039 --> 00:30:51.599 greater awareness of their own biases? Do you think? Or how how can 368 00:30:51.640 --> 00:31:00.359 we encourage that? Yeah? So much of it is about every interest action 369 00:31:00.440 --> 00:31:04.680 you have. We have tons of interactions on a daily basis. Who do 370 00:31:04.759 --> 00:31:08.839 I say hi to? And who don't I? Who do I ignore? 371 00:31:10.720 --> 00:31:15.119 And why? Whose name do I know? In my organization? This is 372 00:31:15.160 --> 00:31:21.359 my big one for me. I try very hard to know the names of 373 00:31:21.559 --> 00:31:27.400 every single custodian or whatever that works on my floor, right because if I 374 00:31:29.279 --> 00:31:33.039 because they deserve to have their name known. I mean, it's the most 375 00:31:33.039 --> 00:31:37.680 basic recognition, absolutely basic recognition. Yeah, but if you ask most people, 376 00:31:37.720 --> 00:31:41.160 they would not know. And I see their eyes light up when I 377 00:31:41.240 --> 00:31:44.640 say, Hey, Lawrence, how are you? Hey? Balsas are and 378 00:31:44.680 --> 00:31:45.759 I write it down. I'm not I don't have a great memory, so 379 00:31:45.799 --> 00:31:48.920 I write it down in my top drawer so that if someone comes in and 380 00:31:49.079 --> 00:31:53.319 is like cleaning the garbage or something, I can remember their name. So 381 00:31:53.559 --> 00:31:59.119 can we just start there we're biased and whose information we choose to care about. 382 00:32:00.359 --> 00:32:04.599 Yeah, it's the most simple starting point. I love that. Thank 383 00:32:04.640 --> 00:32:09.119 you? So would you be? Last question? And this one focuses on 384 00:32:09.160 --> 00:32:15.480 another often repeated word in our cultural moment, stress. Some of your research 385 00:32:15.599 --> 00:32:22.880 is focused on how organizational environments and gender stress and how it influences both individual 386 00:32:22.920 --> 00:32:28.960 and organizational performance. You ended up implementing some of your research real time to 387 00:32:29.000 --> 00:32:36.119 work with Chris Hemsworth on the Netflix show Limitless, National Geographic, National Geographic. 388 00:32:36.759 --> 00:32:39.920 Sorry I stand correct, Yes, you ended up implementing some of your 389 00:32:39.920 --> 00:32:45.440 research real time to work with Chris Hemsworth in the National Geographic show Limitless. 390 00:32:46.519 --> 00:32:53.160 Are we more stressed than we've ever been before? Or are we just talking 391 00:32:53.200 --> 00:32:59.599 about it more? Or what are the drivers? Do you think? I 392 00:32:59.640 --> 00:33:06.240 think some of our stress there are more things that we have on our plates 393 00:33:06.680 --> 00:33:12.680 these days than before that then lead to us being more stressed. Whether it's 394 00:33:12.720 --> 00:33:15.920 the fact that you are always on and you can always check your email, 395 00:33:15.960 --> 00:33:21.880 that people can ask you for anything from anywhere who you've never even met. 396 00:33:22.680 --> 00:33:25.960 Then you know, yes, from an economy standpoint, there have been ups 397 00:33:27.000 --> 00:33:31.000 and downs, but the wealth gap is huge, which means that they're financially 398 00:33:31.240 --> 00:33:37.920 they're more stressed for some people than others. Things are generally super expensive now, 399 00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:43.680 so we just have more, and when you have more, there's more 400 00:33:43.720 --> 00:33:47.160 of an opportunity to be stressed out by more things. So it's not that 401 00:33:47.200 --> 00:33:52.559 it wasn't something that existed before, it's just the volume, the year volume 402 00:33:53.039 --> 00:33:59.000 of opportunities we have to be stressed is more these days. Absolutely fair. 403 00:33:59.759 --> 00:34:02.880 But the first part of what you said that you know there's just things coming 404 00:34:02.880 --> 00:34:08.119 at us all the time with constancy, is that a self regulation issue? 405 00:34:08.360 --> 00:34:12.800 Like, yes, we all have phones, but we can also make active 406 00:34:12.800 --> 00:34:17.639 decisions not to look at our phones, or how do you think about that? 407 00:34:20.159 --> 00:34:24.639 I think that there are these societal norms, regardless of whether your personality 408 00:34:24.760 --> 00:34:30.840 can kind of overcome it or self regulation abilities, that kind of say you 409 00:34:30.880 --> 00:34:37.639 should always be on and available there. And so unless we buck that norm 410 00:34:37.760 --> 00:34:43.079 and say it's okay to not respond or what is or we change what timely 411 00:34:43.320 --> 00:34:47.000 is versus not, or we respect people's boundaries. If we do that, 412 00:34:47.519 --> 00:34:53.199 then it'll allow for more people to engage in self regulatory practices that are more 413 00:34:53.280 --> 00:34:59.480 helpful. But yeah, I'm sorry. Most of us when we email somebody, 414 00:34:59.519 --> 00:35:04.000 we want them to respond pretty quickly. Right, fair, absolutely fair, 415 00:35:04.679 --> 00:35:08.519 Which is unfortunate because that means that no one is breathing. People aren't 416 00:35:08.519 --> 00:35:15.519 breathing, they're constantly on and so learning how to turn off. But not 417 00:35:15.599 --> 00:35:17.880 only that, though, because that is painting a picture of the stress is 418 00:35:17.920 --> 00:35:25.360 a bad thing. I think it's ultimately about knowing the type of stress that 419 00:35:25.400 --> 00:35:30.079 you need that can help you rise to the occasion, and knowing the type 420 00:35:30.119 --> 00:35:36.239 of stress that can make you kind of buckle and not perform at your best 421 00:35:36.639 --> 00:35:40.639 yea, and again to the point of knowing yourself. Once we get better 422 00:35:40.760 --> 00:35:49.599 at understanding what situations lead us to be less effective at where stress is debilitating 423 00:35:49.719 --> 00:35:53.480 versus the situations where stress is enhancing. If we can self diagnose, then 424 00:35:53.559 --> 00:35:59.320 that will help us in adjusting to our ever present stress. That makes a 425 00:35:59.360 --> 00:36:02.679 ton of sense, you know, with so many things, you'll hear the 426 00:36:02.679 --> 00:36:06.960 prior generations say about the next generation. Oh there's so much smarter, Oh 427 00:36:06.960 --> 00:36:08.639 there's so much more technologically adept Oh, they do so many more things. 428 00:36:09.320 --> 00:36:16.960 Do you think self awareness is also increasing and evolving in a positive way for 429 00:36:17.159 --> 00:36:22.159 future generations or with each successive generation. I think it is with each successive 430 00:36:22.199 --> 00:36:29.440 generation. I'm so happy about that because I think that prior generations it was 431 00:36:29.519 --> 00:36:31.320 kind of like you just do when you survive and you make it happen. 432 00:36:31.400 --> 00:36:34.519 You don't need to find joy in your job, you don't have to find 433 00:36:34.599 --> 00:36:37.960 joy in your life. You just like survive, get it done, get 434 00:36:37.960 --> 00:36:40.719 it done. And you know, I would like to say that my generation 435 00:36:42.039 --> 00:36:45.000 is kind of like, wait a minute, but all of you in that 436 00:36:45.039 --> 00:36:49.440 prior generation aren't that happy. So what do we need to do in our 437 00:36:49.480 --> 00:36:57.559 generation to be happier? And that has come with look inward, and now 438 00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:02.039 look inward and take advantage of resources, therapy, coaching, whatever that can 439 00:37:02.079 --> 00:37:07.559 help you look inward. Yea. And now that's a norm or more of 440 00:37:07.559 --> 00:37:13.159 a norm for the younger generations who have the capacity to take advantage of those 441 00:37:13.199 --> 00:37:16.719 resources. Absolutely, so it is getting better and better in some ways. 442 00:37:17.280 --> 00:37:21.440 But what we need to also do is level the playing field so that everybody 443 00:37:21.480 --> 00:37:24.159 has acted. It's actually accessible, yes, because we all need to better 444 00:37:24.280 --> 00:37:30.599 understand all of the mess and beauty that's in here in these minds. That's 445 00:37:30.639 --> 00:37:34.320 a great note to end on. Thank you so much for joining us. 446 00:37:34.320 --> 00:37:37.360 Todare my pleasure. It was a treat. Thanks for having me on. 447 00:37:37.840 --> 00:37:44.280 Thank you, thanks for listening. Please subscribe wherever you listen and leave us 448 00:37:44.320 --> 00:37:50.599 a review. Find your ideal coach at www dot vidmx dot com. Special 449 00:37:50.639 --> 00:37:53.039 thanks to our producer Martin Maluski and singer songwriter Doug Allen.