Kobe, thank you so much for making your inaugural appearance on the Hardware Knots podcast. You will be forgiven for saying yes, because you don't know how poor things are run around here. But I do appreciate you answering the cold call in your DMS. The most important question I'll ask you on this podcast though, how the hell are you doing? I am doing quite well. Appreciate you having me on. Oh, I'm excited, I'm stoked. The Magic are I'm fascinated by every team in the league with there are a much more fascinating team now after getting Pablo ben Caro for sure, and maybe they'll have like some better health with Jonathan Isaac. But I kind of wanted to start by asking you that when you look back on their off season, where there any like prevailing themes or decisions or in action I did this summer that that stick with you or are you maybe surprised that their summer wasn't more movement heavy aside from talent retention and then the Powell Bank Carol Pick. Obviously, yeah, from a general so I wrote about this. Their general ethos of their offseason to me was just we're running the back you know, we're gonna add Polo, We're gonna add Caleb Houston, We're gonna add you know, you know, we're gonna add a couple of different pieces. But we're running the back with the team that we had last year. And that was from what I was hearing, what I've been told, and even my own expectations, that's just what I expected them to do. Throughout the season. They made it clear they believed in the young guys, they believed in the path that they were on, they believe in coach Mosley, Jamal Mosley, and they just I think they wanted to give it a shot. You know, we talk about the health of this team, and they were one of I forget the website that keeps track of games and this because of injuries and health. The safety protocols. The Magic were all the way at the top number one, I think, right above the Clippers was number two or three somewhere. They were like four hundred and sixty four to eighty something games. So I think they really just want to see what this team looks like and how these young guys grow, you know, get a full full for real offseason and you have the continuity with the coaching staff with the players, add a couple of pieces, get a little healthier, and then just roll from there. I don't want to. Actually it did give me some comfort because we were talking about the Paleo pick shortly before we recorded, and I don't necessarily want to rehash the decision to take him, But like, what did you make of that actual pick given all the reports that were flying around, were you caught off guard at all? And ultimately do you think that it was just the right way to go is to swing on the guy Of the three players that were in debate, so to speak, like he clearly palle benk Carroll has the highest just offensive self creation upside of those three. Right, Yeah, Well, so one answer one of your questions, Yes, I was surprised I will admit I was surprised that they took Pollo. I think like a lot of people were, just because for me, even in my own reporting, I was hearing that not just I was hearing that Jabbar was the guy. I was honestly, from the day of the lottery to the drift, I was hearing mixed things. You know, one day it was Chet, one day was Jabbari. Then it seems to be consistently jabbar for a long touch of time. Even people close to the players or close to the situation, I would say, I thought it was gonna be jabbar, and then you know, the magic just surprised a lot of people and say no, we're gonna take Apolo and I go. And I understood why. To me, there was no wrong way if they choosing sticking with those guys. I don't think there was a quote unquote wrong decision. Like sometimes you look at a team, you look at the ROSSI say, like, no, there's gonna be the right decision for them. They had three good choices. I think what their choice is gonna show was where they were at, where their mindset was in terms of what they thought of their own team already, in terms of their own needs and how they saw it, what they were where they were seeking, but also what they were seeing in terms of their own rebuild, like what steps they want to say, what they thought they need to fill and I guess what they believe would helped put them in the best position. And I wrote from shoot day one or however getting to the draft, that Pollo, to me, he has the best potential of being a go to officite option in this draft class to mean that's what he was. So what I can see that I would imagine that's why the Magic took him, because he's the guy who you know, we saw it in Summer League. He can just operate in so many different ways, you know, in the posts as the ball handler, in transition, in the pinch posts. You know, he can play off the ball, he can play on ball. He just has so many, you know, so many tools in his bag. To use that phrase. He can just do so many different things. So I get it, especially when you see where the Magic were I offensively last year and how much they struggled, and then you look at their roster. I get why they say, hey, yes, we can see what Jabar does in terms of shooting, his defense. We can see the multifaceted parts of chet, you know, being at that size and that length and everything he brings. But you know, we need a guy who we can say, hey, no, it's not just about getting a bucket run. Our offense helped put other guys in the best positions too, Because to me, that's not just the thing about polo, isn't just about the scoring. It's that up here he seems to already have it all right. I'm setting this guy up. There was we were I was on press row, and I won't forget this because it was my first time seeing Polo live and in person, and maybe it's the second game I frigut witch game, And in this moment it hit me just how he can see the game. He was in the I guess that's the left block because it was on my right side, and he was backing someone down on the post and maybe he was the second game against the Kings in Summer League and he's backing the dude down and Caleb Houston, who was the Matchic second round pick, is in the in the side corner just right you're lock and loaded, and Paulo could have made the past right there, like the opening was there, but he kept going like he kept going in, acting like he was gonna go, uh, I guess, maybe don't go take a la whatever. It was trying to get into the paint and he what I could see what he was doing is he was just trying to bait the I guess the low man just bait the guys, just coming a little bit closer, a little bit closer to just get into a little bit closer to the paint, and as soon as that defender like took I think he put it was somebody been his right foot into the paint passes right to kay Look, I don't remember if Kayla made the shot, to be honest, I really all I need to know is like Paulo can he already sees that now he knows how to move guys around to take advantage of sir situations. So and that was there was like, yep, that's that's that's what you want from not just number one pick, but just go to guy in that sense. Do you think that they will give him that type of agency and carte blanc over the offense from from day one? I think he'll have a pretty clear runway they already. The thing about the Magic is they have a lot of ball handlers, just a lot, like a lot of young talent. I'm not sure if it's gonna look like it would if he was. I guess the other two teams, Rockets and Thunder, they have some young ball handlers too, But like how it typically is for maybe a number one pick, you know where they just like they're the focal point almost I guess like what it was for Kaide when he was in Detroit or when he's in Detroit his work. He says, don't know what's gonna look like that, just because in Orlando, you know, you do have you know, number five pick last year and Jaalelen slugs, you have Cole Anthony, you have Mark el Folds. That's three guys. There's three guards who some of them maybe yes, could pip playoff the ball, but they've been shown to be better with the ball in their hands opring with the ball in the hands. I didn't even mentioned Franz Vaughan, who has taken talking with him. I don't know. I don't know what this is gonna come out, but I spoke with him earlier today and you guys can watch him during yuro basket. It seems like he's ready to take a leap. And then you have Wendelle Carter Jr. Who's operised the an offense. So it's gonna be interesting to see how they balance all of that out with so many guys who could run an offense or can by possession by possession basis. But I do think you'll see him polo that is used in a variety of ways offensively, not just you know, pick and rolls, not just isolation, not just in the post, not just as you know and the guy in the at the elbows or as a handoff of but just all of it. You'll get to see all of it very much. Seems like someone who could just score twenty seven points completely within the flow of a larger ecosystem. Just basically not this is not I don't watch guys in college that much. I crash coursehit before the draft and then summer league watching him during those stints, just like he is off the charts and he might maybe this isn't even a hot like he passed him. He might already be their best passer, you know, the play that you're talking about Like that, He just feels like, I don't Mark el Folds is there. Wendel Carter Junior is really good there as well. But he just seems like such a high IQ player. I do want to see the ball in his hands a ton, but this is not a necessity for him to have the ball hands. Yeah, no, it's really not. And that's actually one of the things that impressed me a lot at his time. From what I was able to watch that dude. He and I guess this goes back to his passing. He like there were times in Duke that you even think yourself, hey, like you could actually just go for it yourself more. You can look for your own shot more. And it was actually I was talking with Jesse Magic assistant coach Jesse Mbers about this after I think it was the second summer It was the Summer League game where they had crazy ending and it was like over time after they blew a sixteen point lead or whatever it was, and Paulo made the past to Manuel Terry for the game winning shot, and we were just talking about, you know, like the mindset, his approach to the game, and we're just talking like he could like there were times in that game where he could have just like got got his own and just try to go for his own shot. But Jesse, we just talked. He just told me, like, I like that, you know, he's trying to like guys involved, because sometimes it can be harder to teach them that than the opposite. I like that he's like he's actively consciously trying to like get guys involved in trying to help help make his teammates better. Already in summer League as a rookie, when really in summer League, all you want to see is at Lisa Spans or even media sometimes is see those guys go at it, But he's out here trying to play it more of a team. Organs the game even when the ball was in his hands more the I guess. My final question on him is do you have like any impressions or expectations for the type of defensive player that he can be with the magic maybe in just his overarching fit in the front court with Wendell Carter Junior on that side of the ball. Yeah, I think so last year in terms of the magic, they you know, they had a pretty good, like I would say, really good front defensive front court in terms of they know that the combination of Mobamba and Wendell Carter Junior and then you know, you Ki hop in there and then France would go to the force sometimes so and they just they played a variety of different styles, you know, between drops, switch everything. It was. And I think for Paolo, I asked him about this in summer the league because there were times the Summer League where I thought was the defense looked off? He says some of it were interest is going to get in better shape up as conditioning. I think the tools are there for him to be a solid defender. I don't know if about excellent just because you know, the wingspan or maybe something of the quickness isn't there, but I do think the tools in terms of foot speed and just he's big too, so even if you know guys are a little quicker than him, he has a sauce to recover. I think there's a runway or a path him to be solid on that end. It's just going to be more so about his understanding of the game, and he showed the at least office understanding, I mean, classibly, you can understand defensively as well, and then also maybe just get the conditioning up and then like he was saying over the summer, and just get a better field. I think defensively is gonna be where I'm actually going to be more interested and more curious about the growth for him, because the Magic have a lot of defensive minded guys around him that can maybe mask a couple of things at least especially early on. You know, you do have Jalen, you do have Fronds, you do have Windell, You still him Obama, But you have a lot We're gonna talk about Jath and Izak at some point depending on where he's at. You do have a lot of different pieces, So it depends on that too. And I think it really helps having someone like Wendell Carter Junior, who just played like at a really high level on the defensive end last year, and I still think it's more mobile than people give him credit for. And let's just I have a question on Wendel Carter. Let's just skip ahead to that. What was like he had like this refreshing renaissance. It wasn't even renaissance. It was like a reinvention in Orlando last season. The passing was incredible, he showed I think a variety of different shot making. Like I said, the defensive mobility watching him was super impressive. It felt like someone who was very much like I wouldn't say, oh, this dude's going to be an All Star, but who was on a fringe All Star track. What do you think was just the most underrated aspect of what he contributed to this team and how do you sort of scale that moving forward? Looking at his importance to the bigger picture. The most underrated part The one thing about when Dell is it you can almost say, like all of us underrated because some of parts of his game are just understated because there were I spoke were one Dell and even spoke with some of the coaches about this. A lot of what he was doing was the simple things that you you know, can sometimes be hard to do. And Jamal says like dominate the simple and what at least to me what I mean by that when I took that as like offensive rebounding, crash the boards, running, transition, you know, cut, well, you know all this simple stuff that can accumulate. You know, if you twice a game you make this two these two cuts, you know you'll get four points out of it, or maybe you'll get five because you get foul. You know, get to the offensible like for real, crash the boards. Like his rebounding, really, I guess that's under a park. Like he was a ferocious on the board. It's like truly a game changing rebounder throughout the season, and it really just scaled up as the season went along. And I do agree with you in terms of the mobility, that's something that he said that he wants to improve, being able to truly guard one through five. But there was times I'm like, hey, I think you're kind of already there, man, Like you can move your feet pretty well, you're you know, he's I think it was sometimes overlooks just how like strong he is, Like it's two seventy and it's like you can tell he's a for real to seven, like just a big dude. He can body up with the biggest guys in the league. That's why they put him on, you know, Yannis or Embiid or Yokih because he just has the height, the length, but also the weight and the just to just hold his own with it gets these stronger, powerful guys, so that that's really it. And then as the season went along, he started to show a little bit more of that self creation, that on ball creation for himself and which I was like, right, maybe that's the next step you can build off of going into next year. You know, you show you can dominate the simple, the simple parts of the game. You know, roll man, roll quick, roll hard. Like I said, office the boards. Now let's see if what you can do a little bit more on the post. You know, he showed you can be a hub, but what can you do in terms of creating your own shot consistently, which may not also come as often because you have a bunch of other I'm coming back to here, a bunch of other young guys were also looking to be the same, and they did some like fringe like dual, big two man stuff last year. I'm really hoping we get to see a ton of that between him and Paolo. And it doesn't to me. It doesn't matter who has the ball, and that's it. Like, I would just love to see those two operate off one another. I think that's one of the things I'm most excited about with this team. Yeah, no, absolutely that. I forget who I was talking through. I probably said this a couple of times, but this front court of Franz, Windell and Polo, I mean I've said this before. I haven't got too much pushing back on. So I'm actually I'll say it's you see, we'll see what the comments are after this post. But I'm not saying passing. I'm saying just overall playmaking. This has to be one of the better ones in the league, top three in terms of the combination of those three in the front court. Not the team, just the front court. Franz, Polo and Window. Yeah, I mean yeah, just because when do you have three guys at the three, four or five who can all basically operate it. We're not even talking about like yea, Wendell Carters, you here, both Palo, they can both operate from the inside out, but all three of these guys can operate from the outside in. Right, That's not something you see at every single front line spot. That's not something I thought about. But now that you mentioned it, like, yeah, I mean that's that's super that has to be super accurate. Yeah, the only team I could really think about, and it was even a little different for them. I mean, yeah you could. Uh, I mean Boston was like the other team. I was like, because you do have then when in last eight bost I'm thinking of Tatum Horford and Rob Williams. But even Rob Williams isn't operating from the outside in in the same way like making plays out of the role. Yeah, making plays a role like quick play, and that's important. I'm not gonna try I'm not trying to downplay that. But in terms of the outside and inside out, like front you know, I'm sure we're gonna talk about Frons at some point, but some of the pasts he was making as a rookie, or just like you see you kind of like how you already see it now, like you see the you see the angles, you see how to move the pieces around. So that's why I like, I'm just thinking, like some maybe someone bring up another team I haven't thought of after this post, but I'm must this. Yeah, that's why I'm kind of stuck on the just playmaking has to be one of the if not the best, of the combination of three players in the front court. One of I would say it's top three. Yeah, it has to be up there, like maybe because Toronto is basically positionless at this point with and Og, I mean, depending on how you feel about Aaron Gordon and then Michael Porter Jr. There is Denver. They have your kids there. But that's a great point that I haven't really considered. And you did mention Franz Wagner just far and away exceeded any expectations I had for him on both ends of the floor last season. What most like resonated with you during his rookie year, and you mentioned that he and I didn't see full disclosure. I didn't watch any of his like EuroBasket highlights, nothing like, that's not stuff I'm plugged into. What can you see him like really improving upon next year, especially within the makeup of this roster that I think, even if they're not world better, like they're just better by virtue of being healthier and adding Palo hopefully right well with Franz would really impressed me. It was almost coincidential because I joined the Beat. I started covering this team in December. December first was my first day, December first, twenty twenty one, and that was around the time that COVID starts to really like hike up and you could see reflecting the ross was that teams were putting out Like my second or third week on the job, that's when the magic had, Like they started to lose a bunch of guys like four, I think four guys landing and protocols at one point. They had injuries too, so like at one point, you know, to talk about point in Franz, but Franz I wrote a story about this like he was really their main ball handler because that you know, I think Anthony was in out of the lamp at one point. Jenn sucks he had. He was dealing with a broken thumb. Mark Et Foltz was still trying to make his way back from the town a CEO. So it was really, you know, Franz getting so much playmaking responsibilities, so much offense responsibilities, and that was the month that he won Rookie of the Year because he would just show that I can do a lot more than people, you know, people probably thought he could, you know, from the playmaker standpoint, being able to just run an offense, run a pick and roll and just do a variety things out of the pick and roll, where the driving game and be able to get to the room and just finish with these really these euro steps. But also his arms are so long sometimes he did in euro Basket too. He'll go underneath you, so like can like he'll go up beneath your arms defense or even over you or just like these really odd Anglesy goes at it. And it's that really took me back, just the self creation, the creation for others. I think when Franz was drafted there was the stigma of oh yeah, three and D role player who can just fill in the gaps and he can do those things. But there is a much higher ceiling for him because of what he can do on his own in terms of his own creation for himself and for others. Yeah, like the this is I don't even know if it's a word, like the angularity of his finishes on drives, and even like some of the force, like watching some of his drives, like dudes balance and off his shoulders, like when he's closed to the basket, Like this is someone who's sort of blended like force and finesse at the same time. And it's just you know, I didn't have it. Again, as someone who doesn't dive too far in a college, i'd have a great feel for what he was supposed to be. But he was built, like he said as the three in d Prospect, And I even thought I looked at him and was watching how to him, I'm like, can he actually hold up defensively at the three? And like I think you know the magic and how they're built, Like yeah, sure that maybe helped them a little bit, Like he did just find there too. So this is I don't even know what. I don't like to talk necessarily about player seilings, but I don't even know what his is because he's just so much more of a comprehensive player than I was ever led to imagine leading into last year. Yeah, I think I think I would use the word idiosyncratic to describe some of his The way he moves, like it's at a rhythm that's not like a lot of players, Like he's not, and he's so he takes advantage of his size like six, he's legit sixty the length like he'll just move in ways that guys would just kind of like defenders are a little bit confused because like, wait, I thought you were gonna move at this pace, but you're moving at a different pace. I thought you're gonna step here, but you stepped over here. It's savvag. He's very savvy in that sense. And you know, I know, I know you said you don't really touch on your basket, But what I really start to notice and other people around the league I spoke, but noticed the pull up shooting was really starting to come around. And I could tell at the end of the season he was working on that, you know, and shoot arounds and probably like the deeper shooting and deeper shooting, but also on pull ups, and at one point he was knock gonnat like fifty percent pull up three. So it's not gonna be that in the NBA, but if he could, I think it was thirty two percent on like one attempt per game or like one point when it's in per game, it's a rookie. If he can get that to like thirty four thirty thirty five on maybe like one and a half, like that changes a decent effrom because now, and you saw it in your old basket, you can't you have to go over screens now. You can't go under screens now because if you do, he's gonna pull up in your face. And that just opens up his driving lanes, which to me, the driving part was some of the one of the better parts of his game. That's what helped opened up everything because he can if he sees a lane, he can get through there pretty well regardless of who's in front of him, and he has a decent touch on his floater. I know he actually took a lot of floaters or took a lot of those shots like outside of four feet but inside the free throw line. So if he can just get to that spot, he can get to a spot where his pull up game is from beyond the arc is reliable and it's a threat. It's gonna open up so much more because now his defender has to go over screens like they have to before. You can kind of like we'll go under and you know, maybe they'll do a rescreen. No, if the pull ups real, that changes everything. Do you see that, like, because when you go back and watch some of those like pull up looks from last season, I don't know how that like they felt over deliberate to where they're just sort of a reaction that like what like the defense was giving him. Do you see that being a shot that he can nail it? I guess like a higher processing speed is the way that I would be able to frame it, Like is that a realistic outcome for him? Absolutely? That's that's kind of what I was seeing in your best Like it was the not just the fact that it's making them. But he's like it was decisive. It wasn't like, hey, I'll take what you give me. He's like, I'm going for it because I know what he also, I know you're going to be in a drop, and I know my defenders. You know you're going to be in a drop, and my defenders got either Cobb on the screen or is going under and they're trying to get to me. I'm doing it. I'm just pulling up in the the The intentionality, I guess that's that's that's even a word, just very very deliberate in terms of like I'm going for it, just not thinking too much. Also taking his time like that's that's I guess kitchen my plane at his own pace, but just going for it. And that's the bigg thing with he's not being hesitant is what I saw during the summer. So that's something I'm going to be watching from him, just seeing how much does he go for that. You know, can he get if he can get that percentage of little from little dirties, because he shot thirty five percent from three for the season. His catching shoot, you know, when he was open as a catch and shoot guy or even from the corner corners, it's pretty good. It was the pull up threes that were kind of I guess, dragging percentage down a little bit. So if you can get that up and get a higher volume and just make guys seymore as a threat out there, it's gonna be there. Is the confidence that he showed. I saw him play a little bit a lot more confidently or a little bit more confidently with the from beyond the artists of shooting off the dribble. So I definitely think that's in the car's flne. If we would have said over a little over a year ago that we'd be addressing friends, Wagner year two before Jalen Suggs is a year two, I think people probably would have thought we were out of our minds. But Jalen Suggs his rookie campaign, it felt like very stop and started. He already mentioned the thumb issue, he had an ankle issue, and he was also you know, like they gave him a lot of responsibility on offense, particularly when Mark el Foltz was out too. What do you like take away from that rookie year? Is there any real cause from concern? I still remain when I go back and watch him, not that I do it routinely, but when I did go back in preparation this and watch him, he just he passes the sniff test in the eye test to me when you're looking at some of the stuff he does. And I feel like in a more streamlined role, like in one a more consistent hierarchy, but also just having the talent of you know, not only Franz Vogner, but now you're running Palo ban Caro and Wendell Carter Junior. That I think his offensive efficiency is just going to come around. But where do you sort of land on him and what is like this team looking to see from him specifically in year two? Yeah, I just looked it up to make sure this was correct. It's in terms of responsibilities, he had the second highest usage rate looked up on Cleaning Glass of the entire Magic just like barely behind Cole Anthony. Cole Anthon was at twenty seven point three h Jalen Suggs at twenty seven flat percent. That is so yeah. That and for a rookie guard, that's a lot of just didn't have like any spacing around him. Yeah, I mean it's it's it's it's tough, like that's a lot of ball handling, that's a lot of figuring things out. And for me, I think what we saw was a guy who was who was catching up, who was just learning the game, and what made itself was the fact that you know, it was stopping and go. You know, he did have the thumb issue no very early on to the season. Like I said, I joined the Beat in this like my first day on the Beat December first, Like Jalen, that just got hurt like two like the day before, two n two nights before, and that was what twenty two games into the season. Then he comes back in early January and then he has the Anglis issues not too long. Like honestly, the best I saw it from an offensive offensive perspective, it felt like the best I saw Jalen was immediately after he came back from the thumb injury. He seemed he seemed like he took that time while he was injured and really was able to just get a little bit of a better understanding of all right, I thinks are being slow dow on for me a little bit. I can take this time to really just pinpoint things, work on his finishing, which to me, like that was something that I noticed from before his injury. Like if you look at the pre injury Jalen and the posting injury Jalen, his finishing at least immediately did get it upsick finishing at the room. That is so for me. I mean, I think you just saw a rookie guard to struggle show up sometimes struggle with the pace. Really should we don't have to? We don't have to. I guess looking around and really struggled with shooting from beyond the arc. I mean, you think, what twenty one percent on threes, and you wonder if sometimes, like how much did the thumb injury affect him in that sense, because before the injury it was it was pretty rough, it was thin, it was on twenty five percent, but even after after an injury, it really took a nose dive. So you do wonder how much that impacted things, how much of the ankle impact things. He did have surgery really earn the off season to address that. So I saw a guy who just struggled at least offensively a lot, but defensively he just he showed that he can be really special on that end. He can be really special defensive guard. The understanding is there, especially off the ball to me, and he can be if he can figure out the shooting or even the handles or just one of them. It doesn't seem to be both. He can figure out one of those things, he's going to be a high level player for quite a while. Yeah, there was a game later in the season I think it was and the magic like blew them out. I think it was against Indiana and he had like tennisis and fourteen or fifteen points and that was the game. Like, no, I don't expect him to be like a fourteen and ten guy, but it just everything felt very just like it just felt right, and he looked comfortable, and it was like, this is someone who can fill a bunch of different like functional holes or check a bunch of different functional boxes. And I think that gets easier for him to do, not just because he's a sophomore, not just because maybe he's gonna be healthier and during this season, but just because I think the talent around him is elevated now that Wagner is in year two, now that you have a palle bent Gara and like he had a lot of like point GUARDI I don't know, like point GUARDI responsibilities, which I don't know if that's going to be what's best suited for him now when you sort of knock him down the pecking order even a little bit, where Mark el Foltz is there and then you do have Ben Carroll and Wagner, if he's able to do more on the ball along with Wendel Carter Jr. It's, like I mentioned at the top, I just think a more streamlined role. That's not to say he needs to do less, but just something where it's not so like there are points when I watched The Magic anyway, you so way more of them than I. It felt very like heliocentric. Yeah, and zugs and like that doesn't need to happen moving forward. No, I agree, and I think to an extent it was helpful for him to get you know, I guess for things to be a little bit more heless century so he could just I want to see it, not forced feed, but just like get these reps in so you can You're not gonna learn if you don't get these reps in, Like we need you to learn what's doing these situations, So we need you to get the reps. And that's what last was so much about for everybody, a learning process. But I think this season he's not. There's not gonna be as much on his shoulders on a possession by possession or a game by game basis, because you do have, like you said, you do have like Paolo alone. Paulo alone is gonna probably like he's gonna change the complexion of what the offense looks like. But then you have every like we're gonna run through this roster of talking about but every other, like every guy on's offense is going to try to look to get a little bit more. Especially you know, you get Polo back, you get Marquel like fully healthy Marquel or get in it. You get Franz who could take a leap like you just have more guys less on him to carry. And I think that's honestly probably a better role for him. Even if if you told me that coming in and we coming out of Gonzagah, for him, I wouldn't say, oh yeah, the best fit for Jaln Siege is to be like this more heliocentric, you know, main or even secondary ball handler. He can almost like plug holes. But to me, he needs to I think the shooting, at least for me, I think the shooting is more is the most important thing for him to improve. Uh you know, go into the second season, but just beyond that too, because he shows once he can get like he's strong, he can he can be quick, he can be straight line. Once he can get into the paint. But it's gonna be difficult for him to do. So if you know he's playing off ball and the guy he's the guy's defending him just sagging off and really just pecking the paint because you know, he shot twenty percent on three as a rookie, Like he needs to obviously have an upstick in that just so he can respect a little bit more. I'm even talking about pull up shoot and just straight catching shoot, just sketching shoot. That's what he needs to do, because that's I would imagine he's gonna be put if more of those situations this upcoming season, because it probably has to play off ball more. I wonder if just having more trust to his pull up too, Like if he watched like him taking ball screens last year, he felt a little indecisive at times and like dribbling inside the arc. They were like moments you saw the form. You saw the decisiveness where he just rises up because the defense is dropped below, like the screen too far, and he was able to make them pay. But there's also like moments of where it seems like he is too reticent. Maybe he's just more decisive in year two, and that goes a long way. During the reps where he does have the ball. Yeah, something I hadn't asked him about the summer, and it probably just gonna be one of those things that I asked him at some point where this media did or some at some point during the season. I just wonder, I'm wondering myself, like, at some point, where did the confidence go on your own shot? You know, especially you know, you know you struggle shooting. Like I said, I think it's like around twenty five twenty six percent early on, and then you know, you get injured and it's it's your shoot, it's your dominant had's your shooting hand, the right thumb, Like how does that change things? So I'm curiously like I say, even without the pull ups, just the catch and shoot this the shot at least last season, it looked like it looked like a solid shot, Like the base looked good, Like things look pretty solid, Like in terms of form, maybe you do a couple of tweaks, but he looked like he had a good base. I just want to see, like you just gotta go in at a certain point. We made it more than thirty two minutes without me asking any sense what the timelines for returns are on Gary Harris, of course. I mean he was really really good last year. I don't think enough people talked about that, but mainly, when are we gonna see Jonathan Isaac again? Yeah? So first off, congratulations because I know this this who. Congratulations to you because I know this must have hurt you to wait this long to asking about jiuh. Two, congratulations to anybody who's listening, who has been waiting, who've been waiting this long for a JI answer podcast? Does I do timestamp it as we go? So if people really want there Jonathan Isaac injury fixed, like they can skip. As To answer your question directly, I'll go with Gary, since you brought him up first. No, No, I guess there's really no official update on either one. Gary did have I really hope I've pronounced this correctly. Anthroscopic minisectomy. Are we? Are we there? Are they gonna say right? Because I wouldn't even have attempted to say the second word. Yeah, I really hope that's right. And you can look it up online. He had a terminuscus. He got surgery on it August thirty. First talk to surgeons myself, allow of him say it's a six to eight week recovery time to get back on the floor to before go. That gets you to around like mid to late October. So I don't know, we're gonna We're gonna find out, you know, throughout the course of the preseason, like what exactly Gary can do at this point, since it hasn't been close to a month as the surgery. But I would imagine, you know, if the timeline of his recovery is similar to what it is for most players, we have that procedure after terminiscus, he'll be back. I mean, I guess possibly, you know what the magic open October nineteenth. Technically that's a little over six weeks out. I think that's seven weeks to be exact from the surgery, Like he could be back by then, but I could also see like maybe even late October. I would but the magic when I play seven games in October, I would imagine him moment. It's too much time, depending on what he can do and where he's at with his rehab throughout the preseason and what he's doing during this time. JI where we had thirty four minutes, JI, no official update. You know, from what I've seen, it seemed like he's moving well. I know there was the hamshring issue that he had in March, had had to have a procedure on that, But he seems like he's moving well. He isn't wearing a brace. Before the hamshringe setback, he wasn't wearing I remember him wearing a lex sleeve or brace anymore, like closer to the time, in like February. So no official update on him or what his stats is going to be going into preseason or going to the season. That answer will come, I'm sure very soon once things where they kick off. What was it was it Monday, Tuesday on one of those days. Why let's just say Jonathan Isaac is back. He's healthy at some point, like where does he fit into the long term vision of this team now? I mean before he got hurt and I want to I think I wrote about that. Maybe I'm pretty sure I wrote this like that twenty nineteen to twenty twenty season before he got hurt that time, because he got hurt at the end of twenty I think the very beginning twenty and twenty, like the first day of January, second day of January, he was looking like one of the better defensive players in the league and I know you can just if you go. If you go on Magic Twitter, there are an abundance of Jonathan Isaac defensive highlights, but you look at them and he's like, this dude can like he can move so fluidly, he can move so well, he can defend everybody. I mean, he was their main he was He was a guy that in twenty nineteen playoffs when when the Magic played the Raptors, he was a guy that you could throw on Kawhi and say, just do what you do against him in Kawai would struggle just because that size and that mobility, in that length and the instincts like any player, any player that who's that good defensively, especially in with Jamal mostly teaches which is defense and be defensively sound. It was something that was I don't know about underrated, but maybe somewhat lost in the late part of the season, like the Magic had one of the better defenses post All Star breaking even season long, I want to say they're a top twelve to thirteen defense for the course of the season. So if you throw a guy like Ji who could potentially be the best defender on this team, if he's able to get back to that level, Like that just takes you from like, all right, this Magic team has the tools to be a top ten Defen's the No, this team can be an elite on that end. And j I could be at the center of it if he's helting, if he's able to stay on the floor. Do you if he's able to stay on the floor, Like should we anticipate Team Jumbo sizes lineups with him, Paolo Wagner and maybe Wendell Carter Junior At the same time, I think I can speak for Magic fandom, Twitter whoever that would be like that's their prayer right now, like just the throwing Froz, Franz, polo Ji, Windell and throwing whoever else, and that you could some people wanted to be bow bowling everybody six nine, six ten and up, Like, yeah, you could be Marco, could be bull Bol, It could be this. I'm about to spoil something, but this could like my the lineup that I thought of and I was just talking with people about it is like once if it could happen, I would absolutely love to see a Gary Harris, Franz, Wagner, polo Ji and Window lineup. That's a line of I'm like super I don't know, like just really curious about what that could do. And I throw in Gary Haris because he was an elite, you know, for them, an elite shooter. He was there, honestly their best shooter last season, an elite from the corner. So we can give you that space, like in a lineup like that, you know, when you have that guy's that big and maybe not the greatest threats from deep, it can get a little maybe a little clogged in the paint. So he could just be the spacer who can shoot in a variety of ways, or even maybe a guy like Terrence Ross in that lineup who can provide a little bit more movement shooting and a little bit more predictability in that sense. But I think there there's potential for jumbo lines where you see, you know, a guy like Franzovenpolo playing the two and three. He kind of rolled from there. But I think that also would be dependent upon you know, Ji, you know, obviously being healthy and being able to get on the floor consistently. What's the best way for him to contribute offensively on this team For someone who I felt like was very formless on offense to begin with they tried to, you know, shoehorns some on ball possessions. I'm talking about what way about like eighty years ago when he was healthy At this point, I have a zero feel for what he's was supposed to be offensively then, and I'm curious to how you would think, like, what would be the best way for him to most effective way for him to contribute offensively to this, you know, iteration of the magic which is, by the way, Galaxy's different from the iteration of the magic that he last played for. Excuse me, yeah, I mean you think about the magic that he last played for. I mean you're talking about Aaron Gordon was still on the team. We're talking about Nicolabusch was still on the team, and forty he was still on the team. Michael Carl Williams, Like, it's a completely different I mean, I wrote about I wrote this where I'm gonna forget so I'm not gonna say the number, but if you look at the amount, then the number of guys like I think Mark Hell and Terrence Ross are the only guys that I think Ji has shared with. Yeah, I know, Terrence Ross is like the longest tenured magic player at this Yeah, just just like a weird thing that I've always been there a while, but it's a weird thing to contemplate. Yeah, so I'm hope I'm not forgetting someone. But I think Mark Hell and Jay, Mark Hell and Terrence are the only guy's JI and from the Magic's current roster, are the only guy's jis played, you know, a regular season or I guess even postseason game or preach is the game with for that matter. So to answer question more directly, I think for him is just gonna be hey, you know you've had this time, where's the jump shot at right? And that's that's And when I say that, because we're talking about these big jumbo lineups, sometimes it's gonna be like, hey, like can we how are we going to create space to really operate because you know, with those jumble lives, I think, all right, defensively, it's gonna be Lanth is gonna be eyes, He's going to be able to have all these different situations. But if a jump shot can get a little bit, you know, if it can be if he can be a guy who can space in the corner and be a threat from there and maybe you know, cut in when you know, maybe guy like Franz or Got like Cole, Got like Marquel, like Gout like Jalen, you know, get into the paint or pole getting into the paint, either make it cut, be able to space, be able to make that decision, and be able to be a threat from out of position. I think that will be the ideal role because at this point, offensively, like they have they they're building up guys who can be like for like true offensive threats or maybe even be a hub, you know, a handoff lub in that sense in terms of making those decisions. But if he can be a guy who can space and cut and maybe roll when the times when it's necessary, if he's playing alongside say a guy like Mo Bamba who can space, then I think that's ideal role. You're not gonna ask him to do too much offensively, it's just gonna be this like a more simple role. Cut, space and roll when necessary. Mark l. Foltz has been when he's healthy, like this nice bounce back story for Orlando. There's real like directionality to his on ball game, and his passing has come a long way, and the mid range jumper is operable. I think would probably be the best way to describe it at this point, what is his role sort of like now that you do have there's more people who can operate on ball, does it simplify his life? Does it diminish the need for him to continue developing offensively? Do you see elements of his offensive game that you envisioned that he could either expand upon or or get better at. I still find and I've talked magic fans disagree with me. I still don't know whether I consider him like a core member of this team when we're looking like multiple years out, and so I do. I recognize that he's good, like he's become good and does a lot, but I don't know where he fits into like the you know the I say this too much like the larger context of the squad's future. Yeah, I get why, I get why. Sometimes it can it can be a little I'll say murky with him because you think about what he does bring right, Like he the mid range shooting has really become like that's a legit threat for him now, like he is really he can be a legit threat for mid range. He can get to the cup, he can get to the paint. He has a very h there's a word I'm forgetting right now. But he's just very like his body, like he just moves at this very almost like France, at this very different pace and it's very herky jerky, and he's just his cadence is like eccentric. Yeah, yeah, there were The cadence is just it's a different level. So he can always, he seems like it can always create lanes for himself to just go into, and he has the size to just take advantage of. You know, sometimes he can get into the post and just hit you with a turn around shot. Like he has these different dimensions now that maybe even a couple of years ago he may not have had. And he's gotten stronger too, which is encouraging to see. I think in terms of his game, you want to see, I mean, the obvious answers gonna be. You want to see reliable jump shot. You you want to see what he could like what's it gonna look like if you're polo and let's say we're running a polo Gary Harris or Polo Cole Anthony Apolo Ja like an inverted pick and roll where no Polo's put the ball handler and for like I said, Gary hairs pick where regard Cole jailing Gary, they're popping out and you know, you can imagine where the what the folks are like, like where is markl in this on the floor in terms of the geometry of the floor and depending on where he is, like is he stretching his defender like it's the defender having to stretched Ola is like what's for imagine team that maybe that you know struggle as much with shooting as much as they did last year. Like how is he, I guess, opening up lanes for others without the ball in his hands, he is very unamed. With the ball in his hands, he can create. He creates passings, He creates opportunities that do not exist without him being the or at least he did last season even the year last time he's healthy. He creates opportunities that were not there, but he created them because he was the ball handler, if that makes sense, Like he created things that weren't easy to create that honestly, a lot of the other guys on the team would not create. But this team is starting to show, I think and something maybe this is my own take on this team and my own take on maybe what Jamal Mosley says, But I was listening to an interview he did with The Magic's official podcast, The Pop Squad, and he mentioned, I'm paraphrasing that he's we want to teach these guys how to play off the ball. And I remember speaking with him about at one point about Franz Wagner and about like, you know, he was he was after when after Jaalen came back and after markl came back and Cole was healthy, like west Franz's role as a ball handler, and he and we were talking about his like I'm trying to like, I'm not just trying to like pick and roll guys or ISO guys or whatever. I'm trying to develop these well rounded, holistic basketball players. I take that to say, and I'm trying to relate that to Markell is like I'm just trying to figure out, like what's the big whole picture for market as a basketball player, right, because a lot of times we do focus on like these very specific things, but what about like what's how is he going to I guess fit into these other constructs lineup wise or geometry whiles on the floor. And I think for him it is just you know, being able to find a way and maybe it's cutting. Maybe it's a guy who can operate maybe in the dunk respondent situations. Maybe he could be a guy where you know, I don't want to say like Bruce Brown, because that's not it's not gonna look like that, but if you know what I'm saying, like, maybe he's a guy who can be a guy who sets the screen and can be the guy in the short roll. Right, So that's how you can get you know, you can make up for maybe the lack of outside shooting by just having him inside the arc at all times. So he's always a threat and maybe maybe that way, right, I'm not that's something I'm actually very curious to see, Like how do they operate with this? Yeah, I think if he's not going to be able to develop a like consistent like perimeter game outside of the the mid range, would be there a way for him to generate more rim pressure or get to the foul line. More would be ways that he could contribute, and he's he's better at creating like openings at the rim for others than himself. Where it's like some of his like on ball reps could probably benefit from more thrust where it feels like maybe he bails out a little too sooner, or he's not looking for a shot around the rim, but being able to end, you know, generating rim pressure for him gets easier if there's more space to work with him, Like you said, if he's either not just working the dunker spot, but is he able to cut and put pressure, that that might be another way for him to sort of level up. But I guess overall it's sort of still like TBD as to whether this is someone to uh, you know, that should be considered part of the main core of the future. Yeah, I guess. I mean when Mark was like he did show like the ability talking about the mem Ranger, but I'm glad you brought up the getting to the rim park because he did show, uh like, he very much gets to the rim very well like and that's something that this Magic team lacks for most of the last season, Like they just miss rim pressure. They like to rim pressures to say, they like the ability to just get a guy. And that's where Paul's gonna help ushere. Maquel is going to help a guy who can Sometimes we think about opening up the floor as in spacing, but sometimes you can open up with the floor by making guys collapse on you, because that just opens up passing angles. And that's where Marquel's that's where Marquelle can excel, and I think where they hope Polo can excel, Like even if you aren't spacing, you can excel because you make guys come inside. But I'm trying to figure the big questions, like what happens if you know, Mark Hell doesn't have the ball, because, like I've been saying throughout this podcast, a lot of different guys are gonna need to operate with the ball. So maybe it's gonna be like it's a short roll cutting it could I mean, it seems like they're willing to just try. I think that's gonna be a common theme for the season. Just try a bunch of different stuff and see what works. From that sense, because a lot of what we saw from Mark Alista's past season where the ball was just in his hands a lot. Yeah, like he like he had a user race beyond it was like thirty two after he came back, which that's that's high. That's I mean, I looked at the number that then long ago, and I was like, really, I was like that I remember the plays. But I'm like it was that twenty seven and a half for the season is like probably a little uncomfortably high for Mark hel Faults at this point. Yeah, I was like it made because, like the thing is that it made sense because like I remember watching it was like, yeah, when he was on the floor, it was also get from the lineup context. He was playing a lot with backups too, so it made sense that it was that high because he was the main ball handler sometimes like the soul ball handler and those lineups. As was like, yeah, that's super high, Like that's gonna come down, like that has to come down this season, like I would imagine significantly down, Like it would really and it would really surprise me if anybody on this team had a usage rate above twenty seven percent or even twenty six I should say, just because they're gonna be sharing, they're gonna have to share so much of the ball depending on health. Of course. Yeah, they very much feel it and full strength like playmaking by committee. Yeah, which the beauty of their teams that they just have we I say playmate, but Jamal says decision makers. And I think he says decision makers because we think of playmaking as play making making plays with the ball in your hands, but there's only there's only one ball. There's only one ball, and this is also many guys, So I think decision makers and as we talk about cutting, spacing, rolling, being able to figure things out in that sense, I apologize for my dogs making a guest appearance in the background. They're normally quiet for these things. The other player that I'm fascinated bhy this team is Chumo Keiki. It's tough to kind of get a feel for what he's supposed to be, but he is. He can be ubiquitous in the passing lanes on defense, and he shot quietly over thirty six percent from three for like almost half the year, and it felt like his release got quicker or more fluid. I don't know what the right word is there for it. What do you like? Where do you sort of land on him? And is he still someone that this team uses ultra important when you're just looking at how many bodies they kind of have where I don't want to say just in the front court, but just how many different types of players and like you know, bigger I guess bigger players that they have to evaluate moving forward. Yeah, well, to your point, it was thirty it was thirty five percent. He shot thirty five percent in his final forty three games. And not just thirty five percent. I mean we're talking about he's saying six six threes and like twenty six minutes per game. I mean that that volume is that volumes is at for a wing player for four that's out of this world. Six three sixty threes at thirty six percent. It's almost like Jay Crowder esque if if I guess he's gonna say it like that just needs the volume of threes for Chuma though, he you know, I think his rookie year he showed a little bit more playmaking. He like he kind of because he was on the team, like once he kicked off the rebuild, before they drafted Franz, before they drafted Jalen, and obviously before they drafted Polo, Like, he showed a little bit more playmaking this first year, and I think this year there it was more like the outside shooting was the big thing for him to develop. I think there is a role for him on this team, especially when he does you do have the distance, defensive awareness, and defensive ability as he does. It's just gonna it's gonna be tough for him, just because they're, like you said, there are a lot of big bodies like you have in terms of you know, maybe bigger forwards, not wings you have Franz, you have, well, I guess we'll do both bigger forwards and bigs like you have Franz, Tuma, Windell, Polo, potentially Ji Ball Bull, Moe Wagner did say Obamba and then like you just go. I didn't name everybody, but just go down the line. It's like there's a lot of guys that play, Like, how where's Chima gonna fit in? And I think when you have a you're that good defensively if you can if he can show that he can be a guy who can shoot thirty five, thirty six, three seven percent on his threes, you know, pretty consistently on a decent volume and just space the floor, there's gonna be a role for him. I just wonder, like, is he gonna have to play the three more in lineups because they do have a lot of big bodies on this team. He played primarily the four last year and sometimes he even played the five, and like these super ultra small lineups, is he gonna have to maybe you know, show that he can guard threes a little bit better or more, you know, maybe more not even these threes, but like quicker wings a little bit better, or even some guards and switchy situations, just because he may find himself not playing the four as much because they just have they have so many guys who if you just you know, you blink to be like, oh yeah, that guy can play next to another big man, and that's just like almost the entire roster may not the tire, right, but like the entire front line, you can kind of mix match. But sometimes at some point you've got to play three of those bigger four words or even biggs together just to get the minis distribution out there. When you step back and take a look at this roster in full, what projects is like their biggest weakness to you or your biggest concern when you're evaluating them from that that type of bird's eye view. Still it's still so there are really two things. Uh, the outside shooting, the three point shooting is still a guess a concern, and then you know, I'll leave it at that. I think I was gonna say the on ball Christian, I think they've they're they're they're gonna get better at that, just more so development, uh, you know, and also getting like getting a guy like Pablo's gonna help in that regard. You no Franz show. It seems like he's gonna take SEPs you know. I Co Anthony, I think he's gonna He's shown that you can take steps in that regard. Like co Anthony, we even we haven't brought him up too much, but that's stressed that he had colded from the beginning of the season until like that December time where he starts to really deal with those ankle injuries. Like he showed a very good level of just creation and I think if he can after a healthy off season, he can get closer to that level, and maybe not in terms of the actual counting stats, but just to be more efficient with those opportunities. That's gonna be something very meaningful for this team. But I think it's gonna be the outside shooting. They you know, they resigned Gary Harris, they resigned Obama, but those were there two best shooters last season. They brought in Caleb Houston. But sometimes I wonder, like how much are some of their quote unquote better shooters gonna be on the floor, Like how much you know Caleb can be I don't know how much of a role Caleb Huston is gonna have on this team and he can make He hasn't essentially be one of the better shooters. You know, is Jalen gonna take us? You know Leap as a shooter? You know Cole is he showed to be a decent shooter, but can he get to another level as a shooter? I think France has a different level as or like I think guys they're gonna have to rely on just a lot of self development and self improvement rather as shooters just to get to that different level, because sometimes it felt like the lane was opportunities were just clogged just because you you didn't maybe have to respect every single guy on the floor and their ability to space. We've run through so many names and any including Cole Anthy, who I think his role is still important because if they start who I think they're gonna start, like, they're gonna have basically all their best ball handlers in the or creators in the starting line up until col Anthy off the bench becomes super important. What does the ten man rotation, you know, not saying it has to be pigeonholed to that or they're only gonna wino it down to ten. But what does that look like for this team? Because there they have locks like and I don't know, like fault Sugs Wagner, Ben Carro and Window Carter Junior feel like they'll be the starters. To me, am I wrong there? Do you think there's gonna be any fusing and fiddling in that area? It could be I could and obviously this would be an answer. I could see Cole potentially getting too next starting next to the Markl. I could see it being Jalen. There were there were multiple different combinations, at least with that second guard. We're gonna say like that there are multiple combinations I could see at one point or at least at some point in the season. But if we're going to talk about like rotation, I think you know you'd like to set Markl, Jalen France, Paulo Windell, Cole. I'm assuming like at least one or Gary Harris and Terrence Ross to be in there, right, Yeah, I think, well, yeah, this is this is It gets kind of tricky because it made like the rotation in November. Late November may not be the same. Barn health may not be the same start because I don't know, we don't know where Gary is going to be yet to start the season. But let's if they're fully healthy. I guess, like even Ji, like, how does he fit into this equation when he's healthy too? Yeah, so I'll go we just named the six the five guys you name a starters plus Cole, I'm putting them Mo Bamba as a like a lot. Seventh, you know, back up big who can play next to the window, could play play next Apollo. So that's seventh. I mean that's where this This is where it to me, at least it gets trickier. You would imagine Gary and or Terrence. We'll be in there. A guy we haven't mentioned at all, I don't think at all in this podcast. RJ Hampton. He played pretty much every like every game he was available last season he played, I don't he And because of because of where this team's at in their rebuild, they've they've they've made it clear that they're really trying to develop a young guy. So I can see RJ. Hampton and maybe at least early on being higher in the rotation maybe like being that back up I don't want to say like back up two essentially h like just full time just so they can just see where he's at after you know, after summer league and after off season, just to get there. So at that point you're at, you know, in terms of the backups Cole r J and Mo, maybe you have won a H Gary and Terrence and then you know Chuma and or Ji depending on where Ji is at. So I guess if depending on where Ji and Garrett, maybe the back backups are Cole r J, Terrence, Chuma and Mo Bomba that is, and then Ji and Garrett just dependent upon health and then once they once they are healthier, once they're like fully good to go, that's where you start getting the crunch. To me, it feels like based off what you said that it could be when everyone's healthy that maybe it's Terrence Ross and then either Chuma or Mo Bomba that sees their minutes just get squeezed a little bit by having Harris and Isaac both healthy. I mean RJ. Hampton to me would be my pick as someone who might get squeezed out of the rotation by like we're talking November December, that would be my like pick right off the bat. But this roster is really loaded with Yeah, I'm not gonna say that everyone's an above average player, but it's really loaded with options that you want to actually see. Yeah, And I think that's the I think that's the important thing to make clear, is that we're not talking about guys who like who We're gonna be like, you know, this isn't like gonna be like Milwaukee or Boston, like guys who need to like make an impact on winning to meet like this is. They're trying to figure out like what trying to figure out what these guys are, but also how they fit inside with everybody else. So I think because of that, there's probably gonna be a greater emphasis at some points of you know, playing younger guys like r J, and maybe that change. And I think it's also gonna be kind of fluid too, depending on obviously, like health is like I'm not gonna win, but like health changes things every for every nbates for every team every season, So that's maybe that will help answer. But if ever you're saying everybody's healthy, I think it's gonna be very fluid. I think they may even open up things to leave man rotation just so they can get guys, you know, get as their minutes, and it may be a situation where you know, Marko, Jalen France, Paulo, Windell, Cole r J Gary or Terrence that I'm kind of them as a as the eighth guy, Gary Ortons, like it can be. That's kind of what it was toward the end of last season, whereas like one of them are going to play in the game, but they're both not going to be in the rotation, and then Mo Bomba and then Truma or Ji or maybe it can be neither Gary or Terrence, and then you kind of roll from there and then you just make it makes things a little easier in that sense based off kind of everything we just said, like is there a possibility, especially if they're at least close to fully healthy and they've seen like bigger samples from all of these players, that this team should still be viewed as a perspective seller like not even trying to identify specific players, but that they're going to be flexible maybe listening on offers on I think Harris and Ross are gonna be the two that are involved in those hypothetical talks the most, but just even like, is they get a feel for where the makeup of their roster is headed? Who fits with who that? Oh do you start talking about I can't think clearly shouldn't be untouchable at this point, but you start listening on like Anthony or o'kekei or like if you just see that, Okay, Isaac coauld play, but he's not really a fit for this team anymore. Is that still sort of the route that they're going in or is this a team that really much feels like because it's in such a I guess talent acquisition mode, but more so talent evaluation mode because of how much talent it has in house that maybe they'll just be content or even actually looking to stand a pat and see what they have in this you know, entire group. Yeah, you know before I think this is before the draft. I think the draft is on Thursday, and like Monday, it was a Monday availability with Jeff Wildman, the Magic's president of Best Operations. I'm pretty sure this this is pre draft. Maybe it was like Amelia f the draft and he even acknowledged that, hey, we there's there's a good chance not all the guys we have are gonna be able to get through this process with us, because you know they they're gonna want minutes, they're gonna want time. I mean, he didn't he didn't say this exactly. This is I guess I might take on it. But like he said, there's a we need to provide a runway for these young guys, and there's a chance they may not all be able to make it. Not make it, but they may not all be like be here, I guess at the end of the at the end of this process in terms of the rebuild. So I think there's an understanding of they've acquired the talent right like they've acquired they've like they've got a lot of young like a lot of young talent. You look at the roster, most of these guys are twenty five and under, and a lot of them are guys who like Ji and Marcut folks, like their situations are different because they haven't played a lot of games. But they are some of the older players on the team at twenty seventeen draft picks, and then you have Mo Bamba and when Del twenty eighteen and you go down the line, you just have a lot of guys who've been in the league four or five years and trying to prove themselves. I think you're at a point where you've acquired the talent, Like you said, let's evaluate this talent, evaluate them individually and evaluate who fixed next to who, and you could be at a situation where you know, if you maybe not you maybe don't need the entire season to evaluate what you do have in some of these young guys. Maybe you just need you know, ten games, sixteen games, twenty games, and you're looking at the deadline where like you brought up Terrence and Gary, like those are guys to me. I wasn't surprised that Gary was resigned. I thought he was going to get more I guess more guaranteed money on the free agent market. So maybe he's the guy who a team that maybe, like some during free agency they said, all right, we saw like what he did in twenty twenty twenty two, it's legit, we're gonna go after We're gonna make priority to go after him because he's a guy who can really help a consider out, especially at his number of I think thirteen million dollars this season, and felt like it was like built a trade. To me, when I saw the way it was reported, yeah, it felt and especially next year being unguaranteed, the flexibility that you can have with that, it's like, okay, well, there's there's such an easy way for especially because like I will say, this past last season was kind of tough because it was a twenty million as expiring. But you take that twenty to thirteen, which yeah, clearly above the mid level for at least a non tax player, that's much much easier to take in. So yeah, I could see garrier terrence, you know, maybe being guys who are you know, of interest from other teams and then maybe from there that helps simplify things because then you give your young guys an even greater runway to just show what they have. But this year, to me, if last year was about you know, acquiring talent and you know evaluation and when situations that you did have because of injury kind of stapping some opportunities, this is a full on talent and team evaluation and seeing where guys are at. And some of it's made, you know, some of it may not be the same evaluations because you have third year guys like r. J. Cole and Schuma versus second versus in the sense of like they're baluying each other, but in the sense of like how the valuation is different for second year guys of Franz and Jalen, and then even rookies like Polo and Caleb. It maybe different valuations from player at a player, but it's going to be a lot of what not only who are these guys, but what, like I said, what fits, who fits together? And where where can we go from here? Your coach, Jamaal, everybody's healthy. I know this is somewhat matchup dependent, but who is your go to crunch time unit for the Magic Is it just the projected my projected starting five or is it is it something different? My uh wow, go to closing lineup? Would I'll start big and go small window, Polo, Franz, everybody's healthy? H Gary ooh okay, Marco. Wow. So I was getting left out. I mean, I mean, if you're trying to win a game right now, based off what we saw from Zugs last season, that probably makes a ton of sense. Yeah, I think, And I was gonna mention this earlier and now I brought this lineup A lineup up now like I honestly, to me, like if and I understand why this may not happen from day one, especially now that Gary is hurt, but if if this team wasn't a different, if we're viewing the seam in a different context, that actually just may be one of their better lineups to me, because I think it also made it help. It will help make it easier to get maybe like in terms of Mark l Jalen and Cole like help help them out the sense of all right, you guys are gonna have a little bit more freedom to play as backups if that makes sense, right, Yeah, I mean, let's I forget that's the cold and Jayalen. That is like they could have a little bit more freedom as backups in that sense, once you know where they're planning, you're they're leading. Basically, they're leading the second unit kind of like they led the first unit last year, and they can play off of each other while having you know, maybe another starter whether it's Franz or Wendell in the lab with them, with other backups. So that to me was this is a lot I'm very interested in seeing. I'm not sure I'm much gonna see of it, but that Markel, Gary Franz, Paolo Wendel. If it was me, I would just be interested in seeing that lineup close games and yeah, I would be really interested in that. But the funny thing about the Magic is that they just have so many options. Like you could say, hey, take out Gary, put in Suggs and just have this this just strong, big guards and just this big front line. Or you could say go regardless and take out Faults and maybe roll with that just if you think we need more offensive juice with Sugs and Gary Harris and then the other three, right, you can you can really mix a match with the guards. I put in Gary just because he was there most in terms of the guards, the most reliable combination of shooting and defense like you have on drives last year, I think too, which is just he had just I felt like he flew under the radar where it was like, oh, Gary Harris is so bad now, and I was like, oh, Gary Harris is good again. Yeah. Well that's why I was. That's why I was surprised when his number came in at you know, two years twenty six million. I was thinking the people not seeing Gary Harris play last year because I saw a dude, I thought he was gonna get much more than that in terms of both the money and the years. Like I thought he could have been a guy who got even thirteen million a year seems right, But like the fact at how low the guarantee was overall, and then even the contract length if it was a player option or something, and it was like, oh, he wants to get back in the market sooner because the cap has going up. But it wasn't even that situation, and so that I was I was fairly surprised by that outcome as well. Yeah, like I think they were. I mean, maybe it's also just part of the magic, just you know, kind of flying on the radar, you know, because you know, maybe Jalen, you know, people didn't see what they want to see from Jalen early on. You can see them out in that sense. And then you know, after Cole got hurt earlier on, like starting with the ankle injuries early on, you know, it became less I guess in that sense from a national perspective to like have to want to tune in every single night. But there are a lot of things that flew into the radar, you know. France, to me, his rookie campaign kind of flew into the radar and just what he showed Gary, just the bounce like it was a bounce back season. It was his most efficient scoring season and the his healthiest season in like four years or something like. It was since he was prepared to like TWI letter two point er. At one point people were wondering, passed forward a half decade and yeah, season with the magic. Yeah. I was just like, but like this dude just showed up like it was. It was really like because he did it like Gary, that is like he his October November is kind of up and down, like he was getting himself back into the rhythm. But once December took off, from like December until the All Star break maybe like March, and then like that's when the rotation the change started to happening, so they play more young guys. But from that December to like early in the mid March, just like Gary was like, I know this is crazy, sorry, but I was just like, this dude's gonna get like I'm not gonna say like paid paid, but he's gonna get like a decent contract, and he did. But I just thought I was gonna be more there were so little like cap space on the market. So unless he was just gonna take the non tax players been leveling, he ended up getting more than that on a prayer basis, Like that might have been sort of a force at play there. Even then you can have done like a sign and trade or something, but then then you have to worry about the hard cap. Yeah, maybe teams weren't trying to do that, you know, at this point. But yeah, I think Gary could definitely be like, depending on where the season goes and what happens, Like, I think Gary could definitely be a guy who just he'll make life. He'll do the simple things, just make life easier for like all the quote unquote play makers and decision makers. He'll make their life easier just by opening up a runway for them on the floor. What is and I think you already mentioned this, but to rehash it, what is a weirdo, quirky, unconventional lineup you're hoping to see this team try at some point over the season. Oh, we're gonna get super weird right now? All right, Bett, let's go. Uh did I say this already? Earlier? Bull Bowl? Franz Wagner, Paula Bank Carro, Window Shoot and ji Ji or mo Bamba depending on how you're feeling or you know what, Yeah, I'm gonna go there. Just anything with bull Bowl in the lineup is going to get like people's like, oh my gosh, I think Look, I pride myself on normally having the weirdest answer among this two person podcast when we're doing the look aheads, and I'm pretty sure yours is just weirder than mine. I want to see it's point guardless, like I want to see Bank Harrow, Jonathan Isaac, Franz, Wagner, Wendell Carter Junior is just sort of like that super size quartet and then like can we get weird? And like then just chewbokekeys rounding that out, Like you're still super big and you have Paolo and Franz and you're trusting them and Window Carter Junior to generate the offense. If not, you could throw sucks in there instead of Okekey. But like you're you have so many big guys who can do stuff with like your guys, like as you've said before, like Combo forwards or flat out Center and Window coutor jun You're like, hell, throw Bobaba into that quartet, like I'll watch it, I'll watch it. I favor that lineup, That's what I'm saying. And I think what's really interesting about it's really the lone construction and I'm really thinking about Franz Paulo window like I said earlier, even Chuma and maybe like it's been so long so we've seen Bobol consistently on the floor, but even throw him in there. The playmaking ability, it's just like it's different from what we normally see it from guys and those like in that quote unquote three four tween or maybe five in some situation like small situations, because you don't always see that passion ability in like in those guys you think of like just kind of more like three in D but they're almost like defense plus passing and then you just want to see the shooting, and obviously their skill sets are like all different. It's like it's more so based off shooting, not so much playmaking. And I think that's it's it's that's fascinating to me personally because it's like, oh, you don't see that as much really around Like yeah, and I think there are a lot of guys on this team where if they're they could just help out like playoff tenders, just because they have the competency of playmaking. Like, they're not pigeonholed too. If you if your threes aren't falling, you're not contributing, Like they can still contribute defensively. And if they can just knock down enough threes and they can force a close out, that's when you start getting My mind's about get like blown right now. That's what Star was getting really weird and funky. So at this recording, the magic over under for the season is that at twenty seven point five right now, are you taking the over or the under on that? I would take the over? Oh, yeah, I take there. I think I'm one point with twenty five point five, so I must have gone up. Maybe I'm wrong with twenty six point five months to Yeah, I wasn't take over on twenty seven point five. You know, looking at the schedule, and this is why I think helps very obviously it matters, but I'm just really curious to see how this team starts. They have a pretty you know, the first however, many games are pretty tough, and then they get to this. I think it's I'm trying to look at that it right now in real time they have it. It's like this mid November to mid December. Yeah, it's this or late November to late December stretch where they play like basically every team they're gonna play was a team that was either into playing or in the playoffs last year. That's gonna be the stretch where you we really learned, all right, is this team like can be surprised team in the you know, in the playing picture potentially because the talent they already have. You know, I think sometimes when people when think about the magic like oh yeah, Pollo's there now, but I think sometimes we people forget, oh yeah, like they already have so much young talent already there, Like this team could be a surprise team. But stretch from late November through late December. I think of like fourteen games, it's going to be the eye opening stretched to me of the season because if they can even go, you know, I might even say five hundred, but if they can go, if it's fourteen games, then maybe off by a cool game or so, if they can go like five and five and nine or six and eight, that just staying around close to five hundred just barely. That's just like, all right, you guys. If you guys can sticking around with these teams, then you guys can definitely make noise in the East, but especially at least from a playing perspective. But if they're not even there, not healthy, or if they're just struggling and hobbling through that stretch, and that could be a stretch where it's just like you set there, they are set so far back that it's just hard, difficult to recover from. But I still think even with that, they can get over. They can get around thirty wins, thirty issue wins. Maybe I'm inclined to go with the over as well, But it's also like they had twenty two this past year, so getting the twenty eight would be six more victories are just gonna be hard to come by in the East. And I don't think there's a team that we can constantly point out in the East and say they're going to be worse than the Magic this season. Maybe Indiana, if they really lean into it and get rid of Miles Turner, that'd be the team most confident. I don't know about Detroit. It's certainly in the conversation now they've put in Macdonovich and just the idea of Kate cunning in with more shooting, and there will always be teams at and plow it, and I would I think the Wizards, the Knicks, and the Hornets are all good candidates to just absolutely go belly up this year. But that's kind of the predicament that Orlando is in, is that I don't think you definitely. You'd be hard pressed to convince me that there are definitely gonna be two teams there. I look, if you told me the Magic finished tenth, I wouldn't be shocked just looking at like the depth and the upside of this roster. But it's hard for me to pinpoint and say these are the two teams that I know they're going to be better than next season. I'd be willing to bet they're better than the Pacers, who are very much seemed trying to be bad by design. And I might be willing to include the Pistons in there, but I love katee and like he just got unless they're playing on rerouting Boa Madanovitch at some point like those are really and and then after that it's just you would have to be banking on things going wrong, like massively wrong everywhere else. Yeah, well that's I think there's more so I think that speaks less about the Magic more so about the quality of the East. Oh yeah, it's just not a magic thing. The East is just like deadly right now. Yeah, so even like a team, like you know, you kind of go down the list. I'm looking at the stands right now. So like obviously if you're Miami, Boston, Milwaukee, Philadelphia, Toronto, Chicago, Brooklyn, Atlanta, the Cavs this year, My god, Cavs, I'm at nineteen. So like basically that like if any of those teams finished below the match, I would be shots Like, I'm like completely shocked. So then you get, like you said, the Charlotte Nicks Wizards like Pacers, I would say the Magic Overla are going to be better than the Pacers, even the Pistons. Those are the two teams that come closest to saying Okay, the Magic are going to be better than them. Like that's the closest I come after that. It's you wouldn't shock me if the Knicks and Hornets are both worse than the Magic, because I think those teams are just they're implosive. They're just they're implosive, but they're all things that are definitely on a more immediate timeline than the Magic too, and so are they part of the calculus of all this are if the Knicks and the Hornets are more invested in getting wins, like the Magic might just be more invested in trying to throwing stuff on the floor, seeing who works, seeing how healthy Jonathan Isaac is, if he is able to play, seeing what different combinations pan out, so that could sort of hold back or pull back their win total a little bit. But it's twenty seven, twenty eight wins for this team feels low. The Eastern Conference is just so all over the place right now, especially like the middle of it, that it's tough to know if they'll just be victims of what is a very deep conference, not a flaw of their team, which I think for where they're supposed to be at an inexperimental in rebuilding mode. It's super you try to project, like a few years ahead, they have to have one of the most promising rebuilding rosters in the league. Just in the here and now. They're so tough to project for me personally anyway, I agree because I think, I mean, we're talking. I think what we're talking about without I guess maybe saying as directly. I guess you said a little bit more directly than I did. Is that really the Magic in the East are one of three teams who aren't quote unquote going going for it whatever it is for that specific team, like we talk about like Charlotte just fire Brega and replaced him with Clifford because I guess they're trying to replace him with Atkinson. Yeah, or yeah, they're trying to play with Makinson replacement Clifford. Yeah. I almost for about that, but yeah, so, but you could. But that shows them that they're going for it. They made the play twice and they weren't just having making the play and they were trying to do something more. You know, New York just went out at Jalen Brunson. They were flirting with Donovan Mitchell or acquiring down mich because they're trying to go for it with Tims Tips coaching, like the Wizards. You don't give Bradley Bill that money if you're not going for it in some semblance whatever, Like I said, whatever it is for that team, like some it feels like the Magic Pacers in Detroit, like they have their own little tier of just simple just because their teams whose timeline isn't we gotta get this now, Like they can at least to be a little bit more patient and something. Maybe that patience where we talk about maybe being a little bit more experimental in that regard could bring the wind total down, not because of talent, not because of a reflection of the individuals. There's more so like they're getting different things thrown at them throughout the season, and the evaluations are happening through the experiments or just me I'd say experience, but just trying different things, while these other teams are like at all times because if we I mean think, I mean, just think about what if the Niggas don't make the play in this year? At first, I probably wouldn't have them been the play in, to be honest, So that wouldn't surprise me at all. Yeah, So so just there's a different there's they are different pressure and maybe the Magic will be a team next here where they face those kind of pressures, but I don't, at least right now, I don't see them facing those kind of pressures. Definitely not externally, at least, I don't even think internally that's the There seems to be a very patient approach, and because of that, I could see them going I can see them going a little over. But yeah, you asked me to name two teams are gonna be better? I could just name Pacers, then they're gonna better. I just name the Pacers, and they're in a similar vote as Detroit. Detroit just totally. I would have probably said Detroit if they didn't just go ahead and trade for a forward who's a perfect fit for their roster and Plabbadanovitch, like a few hours before we recorded this. I don't know if they're playing on keeping up, but you framed it best that there are three teams in the East. I don't think are concerned with the here and now, and it's Orlando, Indiana and Detroit. Is there any want or anything about this team that I didn't ask you to discuss that you think needs to be you know, tackled before before I let you go. No, I think you pretty much should everything. I would pretty much shit everything. I think the one thing about this team that sometimes maybe missus that I mentioned it earlier in terms of their posts all Star Braves, but even their season long defensibly that's defense is where this team is. That's where they're going to hang their head on. Like they really showed a level of competence and just understanding of that side of the ball. And I just I think that if they can get the guys healthy, Like if you look at their starting out from last year where it was Cole Jalen Franz when Dellabamba, they just showed that they could defend at a very solid level within that lineup, and that, you know, for a team that performed as poorly as they did winning training two games, that lineup's net rating was barely under zero. It wasn't really a bad lineup, but you really, when you have a team that wins joins your games, you think it's gonna be a lot of just like the top line is going to be like super bad. It was actually opposite. Their top line up was like kind of average decent, which for and they played a lot of minutes, So it's like all the other instructions, all the other lineups that weren't that weren't working out. So I think that's the one thing. Just remember that this team defensively I think they haven't figured out and it's going to be more so about I guess putting those pieces to like figuring out one. Definitely figure out the offense, but two now just trying to figure out how does everybody fits together. Yeah, they were tenth in points allowed per possession after the trade deadline, and their ethos was just like, we're going to dominate the defensive glass, We're not going to foul and it worked out for them. So yeah, I think they're definitely a team to watch defensively. Kobe I said before we started that if we did ninety minutes on the Magic, something went incredibly right or absurdly wrong. We did about eighty five minutes on the Magic. I'm just gonna go ahead and say that something went absurdly right. This was great. Thank you so much for your time. Were you able to tell our listeners where they can find you and all the great work that you're putting out? Oh? Absolutely, thanks for having me. Yeah, you guys can find me following me on Twitter. K h O b I Underscore Price Price subscribes to don A Cincinnel. We're gonna have met to days. Kicking off training camp. Kicking off pretty much pretty soon. So that's where you can follow my work. We'll all be reporting on and covering all the ins and out of the team and whatever quirkiness in terms of lineups that they may or may not put out that people may get a little excited about. I'm gonna need like a Twitter tag if they roll out the lineup that you're talking about, where it's just like all bigs, including bowball, I'm gonna need to so that I can if I'm not watching, I need to be able to watch immediately. So what I want to say, it was bowl ball? I wonder either j Obama if I'm not, I'm gonna need alert if that thank you so much. A game. I hope you let me go and I'll talking to do