Hello, and welcome to Open Mind UFO Radio. This is your host,
Alejandro Rojas, and I am with You might think it's Martin Willis. Martin
not here, Willis. He's actually not here. He's in Florida. He's
running around trying checking out hotel or something like that. So we couldn't make
it too record the show. And I guess his guest cancelor on him,
so he won't be doing his own show podcast UFO this week. But before
you feel sorry for him, he did send me a picture of these beautiful
white beaches where he's at, So he does not deserve our pity at all.
In fact, he should be the one pitying us who are back,
you know, doing our regular life riga ramole. He's doing fine, so
I hope he has a great time. He's actually there for work, but
he's planning on doing a lot of fun stuff too. So Martin's not here
with us. But I got a lot of news to go over anyway,
So with that and we could probably get through more. So I want to
talk to you first about my guest. My guest tonight is rich Hoffman.
He's been on the show before. He's a part of the Scientific Coalition for
Eufology, so we've talked about that. He's also a researcher. He actually
grew up in Dayton, Hawaii, are near Dayton, Ohio, which is
of course his word. Project blue Book was actually headed out of Wright Patterson
Air Force Base. He started when he was a kid. In fact,
at fifteen, he appeared on the Phil Doni Hu Show and he became known
as kind of this local UFO expert. So he's been in this field for
decades. He was known for, you know, being the state director in
Alabama. He also was a director of Muffon's strategic projects. He's no longer
with Mufon though now he's with the SEU, the Scientific Coalition for Ufology,
which he helped start. And for a full disclosure, I actually was part
of the formation of this organization as well. I'm kind of an board advisor,
not necessarily a board member. But in this show we talk about the
SCU, but in particular the need for scientific investigation of the UFO phenomena and
kind of the credible investigation and this interface with science that needs to happen.
I've said over and over again there needs to be a SETI of UFOs.
And the reason I say that is because you may not be aware, but
watching this closely, you know, in the nineties to now, there's been
a huge transformation. It used to be that the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence,
also known as SETI. Often when you refer to the term SETI, people
think of Sas Shastak and Jill Tarter. These are scientists who work in this
arena. They work for an organization called the SETI Institute. So it's a
little different now. And of course I repeat this over and over again practically
every episode we bring up SETI because it's very important to understand the distinction,
because there are SETI initiatives. In other words, SETI stands for the search
for Extraterrestrial intelligence. There are those sort of initiatives outside of this organisation,
the institute that happened, So that's important to note. So when you're referring
to SETI and more and more as you know, we read these articles and
see people working in this arena, that term does not mean the SETI Institute,
and it used to. But getting back to why there needs to be
a SETI of UFOs and why I use that terminology is that in the nineties
or earlier on kind of like if you saw this movie Contact, great movie
starring Jodie Foster. It's actually based on a book written by Carl Sagan,
but the whole search for extraterrestrial intelligence was not taken very seriously decades ago,
even up into the nineties where things started to change. In fact, you
know, it was seen as very fringe and kind of silly, as represented
in that movie. So it wasn't taken very seriously there. It's a lot
of fodder to make fun of it. However, things changed over time,
and now some could argue that a NASA is a SETI sort of organization,
so much of what NASA is doing is looking for life and other projects kind
of related to that. That this is really and not only that, anything
the Seti Institute does becomes news. So it's really changed from being fringe to
mainstream. So now you're probably seeing why I keep saying there needs to be
a SETI of UFO research, really moving this topic from the fringe into the
sirius. Now, I believe that lou Elizondo who's come out, who worked
for the Pentagon investigating UFOs. That's kind of been debated in UFO circles,
but fortunately is not being debated in the areas where I think it's most important,
which is the mainstream and in mainstream science, and that has begun to
change things. There is kind of this movement, but what SETI did was
essentially stacked the deck with scientists. They got lots of scientists involved, They
interfaced with scientists, They tackled this issue head on, and they became a
part of the community, a part of the zeitgeist, a part of the
kind of what we see as science and space is looking for extraterrestrial intelligence,
which makes sense. I mean, we've got Star Trek, We've got Star
Wars, we've got all of this sort of cultural perception of space and ideas
of space having to do with alien life. It should be, or it
can be something that we look towards and try to discover and take seriously.
So there has to be this movement. I'm very excited for the Scientific Coalition
for Eupology because I think this is the group. There have been groups kind
of attempting to do this in the past, but none as prolific, I
would say, as you know, hardworking as this group that the Scientific Coalition
for ufology. The SCU, for example, we're going to talk about Rich
and what he's up to, and what SEU is up to and what his
goals are for this organization. But they're getting a lot done. If you
go to their website explore s CU dot org, you'll see a lot of
stuff there. You'll see some papers, some science kind of based papers,
other research into UFOs that have been done serious credible investigation or at least theorizing
over how we really discover something, how we move things along, and how
we take this take a serious look at this topic. So I'm very excited
to talk to Rich. You know, he works actually out of Huntsville,
Alabama, near the Redstone Arsenal. He works for Army Material Command. Actually
he is a IT contractor, so he works in the computer field. So
he's got this insight into that world, at least on the intelligence side,
which is helpful, or at least i should say, in the government end,
which is helpful because you know, that's sort of where this conversation is
going. We've had Nick pop on recently to talk about that, so it's
very exciting. In fact, what else is cool is John Alexander, Army
retired Army intelligence officer. He also has gone into the civilian world to work
in defense and on weaponry and all of this great stuff. But he's really
into UFOs and he investigated. He had this group that he put together to
look into where are the secrets? What does the government know that they're not
telling us. What he found was, like you said, it was more
kind of bumbling bureaucracy and just really dropping the ball is what he found,
more so than kind of this major overall secrecy. And he he spoke at
Phoenix move On recently and just the other day, and it was a great
talk because he talks about budgets. He talks about how you're able to do
this sort of thing. You know, lou Elizondo has talked about this quite
a bit. If you've read George Knapp's articles on more information that he has
discovered regarding a tip this organization from the Pentagon that investigated the UFO's you know,
more around the budgets and Harry Reid, the Senator, and how they
had to frame things and word things in order to get money into this group
to do their UFO research without mentioning the word UFO. We're going to talk
about that with Rich because that's really important. People and funding run from the
term UFO because of all the baggage that the term has with it. And
these are serious considerations when we're looking into moving things forward and getting people involved
who have an interest but are afraid of the blowback that can happen. Harry
Reid talked about that that fear, that very real issue that they had when
they were trying to set up a tip. So it's a big deal.
It's a big thing, and we've got to work smarter, I think in
this field if we really want to make some progress, and that's what I
think SCU is doing. That's what I personally feel that To the Stars Academy
is doing. It's not easy and it's very difficult. Everything's nuanced, everything
has to be you know, you're literally walking on egg shells. Everything has
to be done right, and that's why it takes insiders to guide this and
to move things along. And I'm excited that that is what we now have
happening. So I have mentioned that, you know that I'm going to have
lou Elisondo on the show. We're looking like probably the next show will be
that interview. So I'm very excited about that. We'll bring this conversation forward
even further, and then maybe after that I'll have John Alexander. We'll talk
about his talk at Phoenix. Move on. But this is a really important
time for this field, and we have to capitalize on it, and we
can't just stick to and I don't mean to insult anybody, you all know,
I never intend to do that, But there's a lot of sloppy thinking.
You know, there's a lot of well, it must be this,
or it must be that, and if I look at the you know,
they whoever they may be, do this, so that must mean they're hiding
this or that that happened. And all of these scenarios are wild and fringe,
and so many people, so many even prominent quote unquote UFO researchers,
you know, support this information without looking into or even researching or digging in
and talking to these key players. And that's really important because you have to
run these things by all of your conspiracy theories or wild ideas. You know,
it's fair to be able to let these people speak to them as they
often do when I interview them, because there's often real world answers, real
world considerations, and there are reasons why things are done the way they are.
What's interesting is a lot of people assume that many of these people are
hiding these major secrets behind interfacing with aliens or some other wild idea, when
in fact that's not the case. These people feel just like you do,
or just like some of these people with French beliefs, and they're doing their
best as an insider to try to get answers and try to move this conversation
along in a serious way. And instead of bashing these people or you know,
assuming they're evil and terrible and doing all of these bad things, you
know, there's a lot more cooperation and there's a lot more well that can
happen. I think a lot of people assume, oh, they don't know,
you know, they haven't listened to this speaker or that speaker, or
they haven't listened to this contact he or that abductee, so you know,
they don't know what's going on. Well, they know more than you think,
and they it's just typically when you don't understand the system, you know,
it's easy to assume why that system works the way it does, and
it's difficult to dive in there and try to understand the complexities. In fact,
it's similar to something that John Alexander said. He said that really this
topic and researching it is as serious and as difficult complicated as investigating, you
know, a cure for cancer. It's a very complicated issue. And if
you're going to do it the service that needs to be done, then there's
a lot of resources, a lot of different scientific disciplines that need to be
put into play in you know, taking a wide look at this topic.
So I think we're in a great chance to actually get that done. There
are players in the field right now doing this, and I hope that SEU
can kind of become that SETI stay strong, stay scientific, and interact with
and take feedback from mainstream science to kind of break down those barriers and to
move this so maybe in five ten years. You know, when people bring
up UFOs, it's considered like it was with Project blue Book, or it
was to Dug Jay Allen Heinik, who's representative, of course, in this
television show Project Buboog, a serious scientific investigation, a serious scientific pursuit for
knowledge about an unknown mystery. So I think we have that opportunity and we're
moving towards that, and we're going to get into the news. And I
think the news is doing the same thing as pointing towards all of this as
well, So let's get into the news. I do want to mention a
couple of things when it comes to the news and my YouTube live show.
So I'm doing this live show called UFOs Seriously Live. You know, it's
essentially a live YouTube show where we're taking the topic seriously and I go over
all of the UFO news and I also answer questions for chats from chats,
so there's some one on one interaction with people. If you're not watching it
on you YouTube, you must and I am very disappointed you for not doing
that. I'm just kidding. I know people are busy, got a lot
going on, but if you have the opportunity to even if you can't catch
it live, you know, you'll be able to hear me talking about a
lot of news, a lot of these issues. It's on YouTube, and
I'm moving a lot more stuff over to my YouTube channel, which is called
the Alejandro advantage. If you just google Alejandro Rojas on YouTube, you're gonna
find a lot of other guys. Most of them don't speak English, so
but if you look for the Aljandro Advantage, you'll find my page where I've
got lots of cool stuff, lots of videos going up, and I'm gonna
have more and more going up there. You can also find all of these
linked at the Alejandro Trojas dot com which is my blog, or on the
Patreon. So yeah, it would just be great for you guys to see
that because I'm talking about all of this sort of stuff and then answering questions
from the chat and it's a lot of fun on so check that out.
And in fact, I'm gonna videotape myself doing my intro, doing these interviews
with people for the podcast, and I'm also going to put those up there
soon as well. So I'm going to befall that up stuff up because i
want to get information out to you all as quickly and as often as possible,
because we live in such important times when it comes to this just terribly
interesting field. I mean, you know, sometimes people will say, why
don't you believe in UFOs, And I'm like, what are you talking about?
You? Why do you think I do these podcasts and stuff. I
think there's a genuine mystery here. We have to look into it, just
because you know, a news story comes out and they say, look,
there was a UFO that just flew over the desert and some guy took a
picture, and it's got to be a UFO. But it's a bird or
it's a plane or something. Just because I don't believe everything's a UFO or
an extraterrestrial spacecraft does not mean I don't I don't believe in this field.
It's just the opposite. I want the good data, the good information,
so we can really determine something based off of anomalist information, not based off
of information that we can't confirm as anomalists or is likely not to be.
That's a waste of time. So anyway, in the news, a couple
of interesting things when it comes to Project blue Book. First of all,
you may not have heard this, but Project blue Book, the History Channel
series, has got renewed for a second season. So that's good news.
It means people are watching it. Some of you may be thinking, well,
that's not good news. In fact, John Alexander this Weekend expressed this
opinion because the show is not totally real. They're pushing out some stuff that's
not real, and we want people to know about the real doctor j Allen
Heinek. Well, I can see that point. However, the result of
the show has been a great interest that has been kind of sparked in the
general population about doctor j Allen Heinek and what he's up to, and the
History Channel has put some great articles about him there, and we see these
UFO stories popping up all over mainstream media because of the show. So I
think it's a really good thing. Personally, I think it's important, and
sure it's difficult that sometimes it's entertainment, but that's the way it is.
You know, entertainment gets to the masses more than like a documentary does.
That's just the fact of things. So you know, I don't think it
hurts to attack this topic and to get information out in as many fronts as
possible. So that check that out. Also, you know, I've got
some reviews. I do go over my reviews on my UFO seriously live show
of Project Blue Book. And the reason that's important is not just to talk
about some sci fi show, but to talk about the real cases that are
referenced, because there's really some intelligent writing there that I don't think everybody catches
up on David O'Leary, the writer, and I'm sure the other writers and
people involved they're referencing actual mythologies if they're not referencing real cases. So there
is a lot to learn by breaking down those stories and going over some of
that stuff. Plus we get a review other cases that the show is not
directly referencing, but are similar to what the show is referencing. So it
is a learning kind of activity that we get to go through. So Project
blue Book is going to keep rolling. Also, there are those of you
in the UK probably listeners right now, who have been wanting to watch this
and kind of upset because they haven't been able to. But the sci Fi
Channel has now picked up Project blue Book for the UK, so the UK
will be getting the show on a sci Fi channel sometime soon, so that's
good news. Otherwise, this is really great. There's this scientist called Avi
Lobe. He's actually a Harvard astronomer, and he has been talking aliens left
and right, and he's been making tons of news. All of these news
links. By the way, you'll find it Openminds dot tv on the front
page, but you'll see there two links. I have a washingtonpostlink and a
Boston dot Com link. The Washington postlink I have there if you're a subscriber,
but if you're not a subscriber, you might not be able to read
the whole story. But Boston dot Com reprinted the whole story, and so
that's why I have both links there, so you can read this story.
And essentially, this is the guy, the scientist who suggested that this planetary
object Omaha omama, that's what you say. I think it's a really fun
name to say. But he suggested that this, you know, kind of
long potato looking thing that came through the Solar system like a few weeks ago,
could have been extraterrestrial, and a lot of his colleagues have said,
that's ridiculous, how can you say that? But it has been a little
bit weird in that it's the first extra solar object to come through our solar
system. Typically, like a comment, will come in, come around the
Sun and then leave and maybe we won't see it for a very long time.
But it is in orbit around the Sun. This object came from lord
knows where and flew in, went around the Sun, and it was caught
in the gravity of the Sun. Whipped around the sun, but when it
moved away from the Sun, it sped up, and the scientists were not
sure why. Now most scientists are saying are thinking it's probably just because of
the makeup of whatever this thing is. We don't understand it. But if
we were able to get a sample and kind of examine it, then we
would probably get why it did that. Abby Lob was saying, well,
if we got a sample, we might have found out it's alien technology.
He says, it might be like this giant solar sale. You know that
essentially what that is is this big sale. It's on Star Trek actually,
where the sun pushes it. The heat from the sun or radiation from the
sun is able to push this sale just like a wind would. It's kind
of like solar winds, and that's how it travels. So he thinks that
maybe that's what it was. Lots of his colleagues are getting really upset about
this. Some of them think that he's just kind of challenging people by bringing
this up. But he's doing interviews and he's not backing down. He's saying
this is a possibility. In fact, he did a video also, and
we've got a link on the page why the Universe may be full of alien
civilizations, where he talks about his belief that that may be the case.
Really cool stuff, So you've got to check those stories out, you know.
Again, and we keep talking about this. This is a scientist kind
of coming out and talking about aliens. It's kind of getting okay for scientists
to talk about aliens. So really cool stuff. Also, there's another good
story there about Tom DeLong, his drummer with Blink one eighty two, saying
that he and Tom used to like to get stone and go look for UFOs
in the desert. You know. He said sometimes they saw stuff, and
he was on Joe Rogan the drummer his name is Travis Barker, and he
said that, you know, he likes the UFO thing. He thinks that
there may be aliens visiting us. He just says, I don't know that
I would quit my job with Blink one eighty two, you know, leave
my everything and go do UFO stuff like Tom did. But he thinks it's
pretty cool. So that's an interesting story out there as well. That is
a news ladies and gentlemen. You could see all of this at Openminds dot
tv. But let's go ahead and talk to Rich Hoffman. We'll have him
on right after this short break. All right, I am happy to welcome
back to the show a lifetime eufologist Rich Hoffman. Hello there, Hey,
how you doing al good? It's good to be good to be on with
you again. Yeah, it's great to have you again. And uh,
you know I called you a ufologist, which is what do you think of
that term? What do you think? You know, how do we term
what what we do? And this appeld Well, it's a good question because
I think it's it's actually almost changing a little bit, isn't it. Uh.
Even the term the term UFO has an interesting connotation to many that now
that there's a there's them for this emphasis, that's like, you know,
changing him to AAPS or UAPs or that type thing. And I still think
of myself as a ufologist, even though I mean, I've always adopted the
fact that I'm going to be dealing with not only flying objects, I'm going
to be dealing with another kind of might be underwater objects or something of that
nature. But I think we need to look at maybe coming up with another
way of you know, calling ourselves because I think that too often it has
this again, it's a negative connotation with the word uf Are they term UFO
that everybody immediately attributes to being aliens And you know, a bunch of kooks
running around wearing some sort of like, you know, hats or something like
that, those aluminum hats or something like that. But I still think of
myself as uthologists. You know. So Lou Elizondo is going to be speaking
at an event that you have been organizing for the Scientific Coalition for Ufology,
and I bring this up because the last person who brought this up to me
with Lou, he was saying, you know, and this is something he
wants to talk about. Is he's ran across a lot of people in the
last year being involved with all of this, and there are so many that
kind of are kind of armchair they're interested in the topic and everything, and
then there's those like you who you call yourself a UFO expert because you are,
you've been doing this for decades, and he's like, you know,
how do It's almost like we need a new term because everybody claims to be
a ufologist, but there's only a handful of true experts, and that's kind
of a tough thing to deal with. Yeah, you're absolutely right, it
is. And you know, it seems like more and more, you know,
anybody who, let's say, looks at a bunch of websites that can
call themselves ufologists, I mean, you know, and we see a lot
of people who are in social media that are doing the same thing. It's
like, you know, and and I guess, you know, I even
had that with some of the members of my local group. I mean,
they come from entertainment as opposed to coming to study this stuff. And and
and so I try to focus it on study, you know, And there's
not a lot of people that want to spend that time and that that I
had that long dedicated interest in doing that kind of study. Uh. And
so it's it's very rare, actually, to be honest, to find a
true quote unquote ufologist anymore. Right, they make themselves self proclaimed experts or
something like that because they wrote a book or you know, or something of
that nature. And that's that's unfortunate because I think that the phenomena needs that
in depth study and we need specifically to focus on scientifically what that means.
And I think that Lose done a great job of trying to connect us to
this scientific and keeping us kind of focused, if you would that way.
And so I have to applaud the guy for trying to corral us and to
get us to think rethink that type of stuff. And that's it's all good.
Yeah, I'm really tempted to talk to you about and we'll get into
this kind of this new world and how things I feel have been changing really
rapidly in this field like we haven't seen before. But I kind of wanted
to take a step back though and kind of frame your perspective and approach to
this phenomena. And one way would be, you know, you you were
with move On for decades and now you're with the Scientific Coalition for Ufology.
Why was it important to create this organization? What I began to see,
you know, I got to understand that move On doesn't fills a niche that
I think is still very, very valuable in the sense that if you look
at new Fork, you know, in terms of what it does, it
just gets the citing data and there's nothing done in the way of investigation of
the case and helping us to reduce down the bogus stuff or the misidentified or
the crack putts or whatever you want to call it, but to get us
honed down a little bit closer to getting to what the UFO is about.
So with the fact of having an investigation, you know, you're helping to
do that, and that's boots on the ground or that's people calling somebody and
helping to walk through that. So that's where it plays a very critical role.
So it's collecting that kind of data. Now here's the problem that I
continue to see in the sense that you know, you may have in your
database seventy thousand cases, and that's wonderful to have seventy thousand cases, But
the question comes who's taking that data and going through it and really pulling out
the nuggets of the wonderful information that you need want to garner from a scientific
standpoint to be able to help us account for the maneuver ability of the object,
to see if there's any like some people report distortions around the objects or
something of that nature, and it and it doesn't you did. What I
saw was that we're doing a great job of collecting It's almost like what the
Air Force did. But then who was actually doing the analysis, who was
doing the study of that data, and and what I found was that it
was very rarely being looked at. It's not like that other than you know,
the few of us, a few of us that were actually going and
culling and looking through it. And it's one thing to go out and find
a case that looks really really good, but it and helping to re look
at it and through us more of a scientific lens, which is what the
Science Review Board was attempting to do. But I mean again, it's it's
like, we need to make use of the data, and people need to
be able to look at the data. We didn't allow you know, scientists
or other organizations or whatever to necessarily come in and look at move On data.
They needed to be a part of move and there was like you know,
I mean, you know, and I was encouraging us to be able
to get it in such a way that you could do that, and then
for scientists to be able to take it and then do statistical analysis, to
be able to do all these kinds of things, to be able to determine
more and more about the objects, and to help them craft white papers,
to be able to get them out, the white papers out and actually get
stuff published in scientific journals, right, And so to me, that's where
I see that we needed to go even within move On. Well, you
know, I mean the other part of that is that that move On started
to move kind of like in directions that a lot of scientists reject outright.
I mean it's like, you know, you want to talk about secret spaceship
programs, or you want to talk about and have those at your conferences.
Well, those kind of things don't help the scientific community to stay in And
what I found out is that a lot of us just were starting to leave,
and we don't want to lose those scientists to have an interest. So
that kind of led to a little bit of the formation of kind of a
loose knit team that we did have while we were under move On, And
we called ourselves as a team kind of like the SCU. It's just a
coalition of us getting together to be able to study. And of course,
you know, we were studying the Aguadilla case, right, So we started
as a team then to be able to now, like how can we apply
that? And in that particular case, it was a situation where the witnesses
did not want to go through any kind of a UFO lens. They wanted
to keep it outside of a UFO group and move on, and so we
had to now work it outside of you know, move on, and well
that cost a lot of heartburn. But anyway, bottom line wise that eventually
a lot of us got a little bit disappointed with that and said, look,
we need to come up with a new way of approaching this, and
we need to have more scientists engaged in it, and so let's go create
our own group. And that's the start of SCU Scientific Coalition. We decided
to go and become a five oh one C three and you become incorporated and
really start to set ourselves up. And right now we're over forty basically scientists,
you know, engineering types, of psychology types, a lot of people
that are in different roles and more scientific in our approach, and we've got
ten PhDs, and so we're encouraging more and more people to get engaged like
that to help us to do that analysis, to do a bigger deep dive,
to be able to create journal articles if you would, to write white
papers, to do peer like you expect you would have in science. And
so that's kind of like where we're going now. I mean we're trying to
get more structured, more disciplined in that approach. And what's cool is if
people go to the website explore SEU dot org, you've got already a lot
of great stuff up there. What I find exciting is the papers link,
where you have different white papers or papers that have been written throughout history,
including like Special Report fourteen from Project Blue Book or the Condon Report. Some
that are well known, but others like this estimate of Optical power output and
six Unexplained Cases by Jacques Valet. So these are science oriented papers that are
out there. Now. There's few and far between to find these sort of
things, but they have been done in history, yes, and so we're
trying to collect all those that are relevant to the scientific approach that have been
published. At the same time, we're we're also now going through and reviewing.
For example, let me let me give you this peer review process.
When we did the Aukwarodia case, we were like saying, well, who
can we go to, you know, to have them look at our work
and of a scientific nature and really to help us out and identifying and figuring
it all out. And did we do it right? And there is there
something we're missing or that type of thing, and so we were looking for
that that to happen. Well, as you might recall, we ended up
going over to the do An organization over there cns UH and we went to
a Sigma I think it's Sigma two or something of that nature group that's under
under their NASSA if you would that we're willing to at least look at the
paper and give us some feedback on it. And now yeah, in France
and I'm sorry, and so we're now making that more rigorous. And we
we've actually taken Kevin Randall did a paper on the Van Tell case, so
we've actually gone through and looked at his paper, We've given him some feedback.
He's actually rewriting it and making some changes to improve it. So we're
supporting him in terms of that. And so we've gone through like a peer
review kind of like work there and now we're applying it to ourselves in the
context of even our Nimits report which we're coming out with. And so you
know, again it's the rigor of going through having people that are technical and
finding those other technical people to do that. And that's what we're trying to
mature, which is very exciting. And I mean, you know, so
many people may argue, well too, The Stars is kind of doing a
similar thing, and certainly they have a very prestigious group of directors and people
working for them. But at the same time there's a lot of controversy attached
to it. There's kind of this entertainment arm where what is great about SCU
is it's just kind of pure on its own. It interacts with the public
and is this coalition of very serious minded people not distracted by some of these
other things exactly. And so that's where we're we're that's where we're tending to
go, and we want to be able to grow and mature that and again
it's about getting others that are out there who you know might be you know,
remember the you know, Jacques Bela, the Hidden College, you know,
if you would, that's out there that they couldn't find an appropriate link
and and and the other good thing about it is and that we have to
realize is that since you know, I got started in this thing like fifty
four years old years ago or something like that, you know, what's happened
to technology, Well, technology is blossomed to the point where we've got better
tools, more information. We're starting to see cases like the Limits or like
these other kinds of like the aquad where you're starting to get military great equipment,
you're getting thermal imaging kinds of cameras, and you're getting multisensory data.
And you know, there's nothing that scientists love more than having data given to
them, right, So now you've got, you know, a scientific community
who can engage because there's some data for them to analyze. And so as
opposed to high I saw a UFO last night. Let me show you,
let me show you my blurred photo, you know, okay, And so
what we're trying to encourage is the use of technology to get things like spectral
images. We're looking to get thermal graphs. We're looking to get you know,
obviously radar wherever we can, and there's other means of being a get
other kinds of data to be able to go along with the case that we
haven't been considering or analyzing in the past that will now help us to understand
the objects better, you know. And so we're now looking to encourage that
development as well. So m hm, and you know, those are great
outlines there there was some I've heard some people say, you know, there
can't be any science applied to the UFO field, which is kind of a
bit odd to hear from some people. But certainly you can. What you
do need data, and certainly anecdotal data is a start, but it's not
much. But when it comes to radar and photos, that's data you can
actually do something with correct and we as scientists can also engage in helping to
get the tools out to the community, meaning that you know, why can't
scientists help us develop those things like you know you might be aware of,
but I mean those like those portable devices that would put some sort of multisensory
data kind of capability out at a site where there's a hotspot. And so,
you know, you had Center for UFO Studies, which is doing the
UFO data thing. You had Mark D'Antonio working with you know, a couple
others and stuff like that to be able to help develop something. And so
there's there's a good start moving that direction. And so we need to get
that a little bit orchestrated. And why can't scientists be on that cutting agent
in terms of helping to develop it and get it out to others, and
that's what I want to talk about also, Eva, that is the conference
that I'm going to be coming up with. Yeah, definitely my last question
though along these sides before we get into the conference, because this is exciting
too, and there's a great segue from something recently I wrote about, Well,
we'll get into that. This is fun but still nimics the two thousand
and four Nimmets incident. Of course, I've talked a lot about it on
the show, interviewed various people. Pope was on last week. We talked
about it, and of course Robert palt has been on and he's kind of
he's a part of the SEU kind of leading this research. But when people
say, well, you know, what can you add to it? You
know that Alexando and his group have already looked at it. We have this
leaked document from George Knapp that has been confirmed by Alexando that you know,
is this military report. What can be added? What would be your answer
to them? I think where we're at is, you know, it's always
good to have multiple sets of eyes on things, right, okay, meaning
that we may come up with a different perspective than another group. And that's
Okay, all right, there's no reason why what for something we do or
our approach can't be also considered and we might pick up on something in our
study that might not have been looked at or that maybe they don't have.
And let me also point out to you that do you see those those results
of that analysis being given to the general public. No, I mean,
have you seen any analysis of that that's been supplied to you or data made
available to the general public. No, Because it's under a government thing.
It's an a tip ring, right, and so what you had was an
a tip project that was under the government, and that's still within the reign
of the government, and stuff probably is still classified in many respects, and
what you get is only a little snippet of that information. For example,
we don't have the radar data from that that case, but you have again,
you know, witnesses who have described it in radar operators have talked about
it. And so we've talked with the radar operators, We've talked with the
pilots, We've talked with you know, overall a lot of different people to
try to get their take on what we saw, what they saw and how
they described it and so in some respects, we're actually somewhat validating what Tta
is saying, okay by our doing our work, but at the same time,
you know, we're going to be publishing ours. Well, i'd like
to see theirs, right, you know, and I don't, and you
don't have it, and I don't have it, right, and so we
take on we're on their word that they did this and here's their outcome of
that case. But that's all I can do at that point, right,
Yeah, exactly. I think you make a lot of great points. That's
what's really exciting about this report, and I know the SEU report will be
coming out soon, is that, Yeah, we haven't seen and I think
that's something that we need to continue to talk about. You know, amongst
the community is uh and Lou you know, says he can't share anymore.
Unfortunately, because he's bound you know, by his by this these things are
are still not released to the public. So all we have is this one
leaked kind of short report with a handful of witnesses. But we don't have
that radar data. We don't have analysis, you know, how they analyze
these videos, how they determined they were anomalous. We don't have a number
of witnesses that I know that you all have been talking to. So it's
going to be really exciting to see how much of this report do you think
is new and fresh and something that people wouldn't have seen before? Well,
I think that I think you know what's happened here is and you know as
well as I do. It's a situation where we worked and we've had a
lot of these conversations with these people, and we've got this kind of information
that was given us. But like you know, let's say, let me
put it through this way. Commander Slate who we talk with, who was
was also one of the people on board one of the two aircraft, you
know, we talked with him, We got a lot of detail that he
gave us that you know, and he's not on Facebook and he's not out
you know, being interviewed. So consequently, we're going to have information that
we got from him that you know hasn't been published, okay, so or
that has not that will be new. The other thing is that we've gone
through exhaustive levels of detail of looking pixel by pixel at the video and we
have data like you wouldn't believe on that and we've got you know, Larry
Cage, that's who's a mathematician that's focused on it, who's published an extensive
amount of effert we have. You know, let me let me put to
you this way. Have you do you know what the kinetic energy level that
would have What would have happened if you had an object to drop from eighty
thousand feet stopping and above C level in point seven eight seconds? What would
be the kinetic effect? What's the amount of G force that you're talking about?
How do you look at that and apply that to the concept of you
know, acceleration and deceleration. How do you do that? And we're looking
at it through the lens of a scientist and say, how can this possibly
happen? Mm hmmm. So for example, you know Elon Musk is doing
that, I guess with the space that's rockets, but of course they've got
jet inted rocket engine gender they're expelling huge amounts of fuel to do this,
and think, yeah, exactly, and you don't have that you know here
right, So I mean, how do you how do you propel yourself to
such a speed to the point where you can get to where you're going to
be in point seven eight seconds. You've got to look at it like,
you know, I've got to accelerate and then I have to decelerate to stop,
right, I mean, but this is just instantaneous in that level and
how can that be? And then you know, what do we know about
aircraft? What we they go through the sky or they go through the atmosphere,
and you know they practically burn up, you know, the faster that
they go, right, So how do you deal with an object like that
that's doing that? So again it's you're going to see like the perspective of
the scientists or a physicist if you would, it's looking at that angle to
say, well, how can this possibly be? So we do that as
well. And so there's a lot of this kind of information that we're going
to be able to to give you and you'll be able to you know,
it'll be and it'll be published, so you'll be able to see it and
you'll be able to touch it, and you you'll be able to where you
don't have that with the other stuff, right, right, And that's what's
exciting about this group. And even for instance, when you all put out
your Aguadilla report, I mean, you're welcoming scrutiny. And that's what science
is about. It's not about hiding your information and being afraid of able to
look at it and kind of put it through its paces. You want people
to do that, so, uh, you know other organizations want you know,
others like and now there is at least you ought to be able to
look at this and scrutinize it. Yes, so that's really exciting. We've
got to go to break, but I will mention when we come out of
break, we're going to talk about this conference. And actually it's located near
where you work, the Redstone Arsenal in Huntsville, Alabama. And that's important
because people may not realize this, but the last episode of Project Bluebook Operational
paper Clip, they talked about Huntsville, but specifically, I don't think they
even mentioned the name. Specifically, where those German scientists were working to begin
the space program was at the Redstone Arsenal before NASA even existed. So we'll
talk some about that riches experience working in the area when we come back from
this short break, So stay tuned. Welcome back to Open Mind GUFO Radio.
This is your host Alejandro Rojas and I am here with Rich Hoffman,
and when we came when we're going into the break, I was talking about
the Redstone Arsenal. And even when I wrote about Project Bluebook the last episode,
I don't even know if I mentioned the arsenal. But it's got a
rich history. One can argue this is kind of where the birthplace of our
US space program. Yes, it's a very exciting thing, and we're very
excited here in Huntsville because you know, you we got the fiftieth anniversary of
the Moon landing, and this is where the rockets were built. In fact,
if you go over and I know that you know this because you went
to Space Camp, we have space Camp here, and we've got we have
the Davidson Center. It's gotten actually a full stage Saturn five and on its
side and you can go and look at it. But then there's also a
large Saturn five sitting out there, and then they have all the earlier models
of rockets and stuff like that. And even on the arsenal, you can
go over there and there's like, you know, the original Redstone test facility
that Berner von Braun used for the Redstone rocket, right, it's still over
there and people on the base and you know, people can go over and
see that and that those test stands are still there, and you know,
it's very exciting because the SLS is being built now and of course there's all
different kinds of things related to that, and you know, so it's an
exciting place with NASA there, but it's got that rich history like you talk
about of that whole space program and now you have the Marshall Space Flight Center
there and you've got in addition to that. I don't know if you know
this, but like the FBI is leaving Quantico and coming here, So oh,
I didn't know that. Yeah, the the entire Quantico location for the
FBI is now here at Redstone. And and of course i'm the military.
Uh, the Missile Defense Agency is here. Everything relating to space and missiles
you know, in the Army and stuff like this here and you know,
Army Aviation is here. And I work for the Army Material Command, which
is the entire logistics umbrella too. And by the way, it's the corollary
to the Air Force Material Command that had underneath it Project Bluebook. And so
so it's funny for me because I started off on Dayton Ohio and I in
fact, I've had occasions to go out to the base and meet with some
people and stuff like that, and gable lecture on UFOs by the way out
there. But so I'm kind of like I left there somehow I ended up
in the Army Sister organization and uh, and so it's kind of like an
interesting little thing for me that that I'm now back and I'm working for them
and uh, you know, doing this whole thing. And and they pretty
much recept to me doing this as well, which is really cool. Oh
that is cool and which I think says a lot. And we'll get into
that, but that's probably I mean, I would imagine because this is a
space hub, why it's so exciting that you have been putting together this this
short conference, and maybe tell us about the conference and what the mission is
kind of what you're attempting to accomplish. Yeah, I know a lot of
us have been talking about wanting to do a conference, and I was willing
to say, like, you know, I'd love to be able to have
I'd love to have one in the back door so to speak of this.
You know, Redstone Arsenal and the Marshall Space Flight Center and to now see
if we can get a collaboration between some of the scientists and engineers and that
type of people that are over there. Included in that is University of Alabama
Hunspital, which is largely uh at an engineering school, and you know,
even encourage them to come and to get you know, we're surrounded by all
of the corollary indus, the do O D businesses if you would, that
support them, like Lockey, Martin Boeing, uh. You know, all
these companies are around here, and it's just huge tech quarter for this kind
of thing. And so consequently, you know, I'd love to be able
to have this serious scientificness discussion between people that are on the base or in
industry or in academia talking about the UFO subject uh uh seriously and saying and
for us to come in an open Kimona, lay out why we think that
it's important that we continue to do it. And you know, and then
with the fact that you have this Pentagon program that was announced, you know,
and that that announcement kind of gives it a little bit more credibility in
a lot of people's eyes. The fact that here's a deed, you know,
here we are at the Pentagon, you know, studying this thing is
a threat identification program kind of like look and aerospace threat And so if you
have that kind of a context that maybe you might be able to now get
them to be willing to converse and collaborate. So I've constructed the conference if
you would, to create a kind of like a very highly collaborative environment from
over the time period that we're holding this And so that's where I'm going,
and that's what I'm trying to achieve, and that's I'm looking for very scientific,
we're minded people who are very serious minded people to attend h and I'm
you know, I'm getting doctors that are presenting I'm getting I'm getting you know,
of course we'll be talking about the Aguadia case, and not for the
context that we even have answers on it, but maybe more like in the
context that you know, here's a case that has that kind of like data
that we're looking to get, you know. Uh. And then we're also
going to be talking about the detection and characterization of anomalous aerial phenomena using satellite
data imagery. So you have and Felipe aleis from the European space agencies coming
over, and we're going to be looking at the physics of the Limets case
and talking about that. We're going to be talking about the Agardilla case.
But then we're also going in and talking about you know, you know,
constraints on societies engaged in interstellar travel. And also we have a propulsion systems
expert from the base, So we're going to be talking a lot of different
things, and we're hopefully, you know, we're pulling in those kind of
people. And I'm being told that we're getting a lot of interest in chatter
on even on the Intel networks, uh, you know, intelligence people,
and so they're very intrigued and excited about it. So I Lou is extremely
excited about it. I mean just from the standpoint that we offered him to
be the keynote for this conference, because I think that his his approach to
this thing is right in sink. And he was a former military guy,
right, I mean, he was a former army. At the same time,
he has the Pentagon experience, and so he can help us to kind
of get that where we want to go. And so I'm very excited about
this. I think it's going to be a great conference. And it's you
need to contrast this against a lot of the other conferences you know, you
probably have even heard of, but I mean it's again, it's focuses solely
science and getting the science typic community engaged and talking. And that's where we're
trying to go. And one of the things I've found out very right off
the bat is we need to get away from the term UFO because to the
scientists and to the people on the base that they won't even begin to come
And so we got to put this. We had to change this over to
like you know, anomalous aerospace phenomena, you know, and aerospaces canotes actually
believe it or not, It's not just you know, air and stuff like
that. It's a that's a term that works in all three layers, you
know, the oceans, the atmosphere, and in space. So we're calling
it AAP anomalous aerospace phenomena and trying to do what we can do pretty much
avoid as much as we can the term UFO because we're trying to get them
to look at this in a different context other than you know what the typical
UFO thing brings up. Which is funny because it wasn't like on the program
Project blue Book, it wasn't Heinech a scientist who came up with UFO,
But it was you know, Rupel, who was in charge of Project blue
Book, who came up with that. So it was an air Force term.
But it's gotten correct, I suppose, is the way you'd put it.
And people's perceptions have changed. And so it's interesting that, you know,
we have this world where we have these scientists who are now like this
Harvard scientist in the news low and we've got others that have been talking about,
you know, the importance of paying more attention to sort of these anomalous
events, and so and Lou in a way has kind of shoehorned the UFO
issue into some intelligence work. He did that while he was in his career,
along with others whose names we don't even know because he cannot share who
he worked with in the intelligence world on these sorts of things. But now,
that's what's great about what you are are doing, because it's filling that
kind of gap that even scientists are saying that we need filled, which is
to take a serious look at these incidents that could be related to and this
is a scientist saying this that could be you know, the result of intelligent
extraterrestrial intelligences. Yes, yeah, I mean it's wide open in terms of
trying to figure out where these things you know, could emanate from come from,
or even what they are. You know, and we haven't eliminated these
big hypotheses. In other words, are they all coming from outer space?
No, you know, the data doesn't suggest that they have. They always
been here, you know, I always there's always been here a hypothesis if
you would, you know, and you can argue that you could talk about
interdimensional like ballet, you know, that they pop in and pop out of
space and time or something of that nature. And you can have cases that
substantiate that. You can have, you know, instances where theyd of like
you know, completely just blank out in front of a witness or something like
that and pop in out of nowhere. Well, you've got that, and
then at the same time you've got you know, like if you want to
go with the bent Water's case where you know, you know, Peniston goes
up and basically touches one and you know he's actually touching it and that type
thing, and then gets these things, these ones and zeros binary code,
I guess, and it translates into something like it's a time machine from our
future or something of that nature. So we don't, you know, we
don't do a good job of eliminating all the various hypotheses, but we do
need to do. And I think that this is where like you know,
lose doing and they're doing. The focus was a very very good focus.
What do these things do? They seem to be able to, like if
you would cloak themselves. They have stealthy kind of capabilities. They they're not
bothered by working in water. They don't change their shape at all. There's
there's the same shaped object will go in water, be out in space,
or be in the atmosphere. Yet we build things with you know, that
have to have a different kind of look and feel to them, right so
in order to be able to maneuver through those different media, and yet these
things don't do that. Well, wouldn't that be great to know? Or
what about you know? Obviously positive lift the fact that they can harver and
they can do what they can do. How do I begin to have something
that can be maneuvered from eighty thousand feet to zero point seven eight seconds ending
up in stopping just above the water, you know what I mean, how
do I do that? And so we need to be able to understand these
things, categorize and look and sort those kind of details out and see what,
if anything we can figure out in terms of how that works. And
that's what science does, you know, it looks at it that way.
And what's great about this is at least it's showing lou who's got certainly his
connections into the real serious, mainstream and high level echelons of the government of
intelligence, of d D and also now more and more science that and the
scientists that there are serious science minded people who have been looking into this for
a very long time who you can come in and listen to it and talk
to, you know, at your level if you're a scientist and inside of
your own comfort zone. And I think that's really important to kind of introducing,
you know, the idea that it's okay to look into this stuff and
there are avenues of research that are very interesting that can be looked into.
Yes, absolutely, And so the more we can put that lens on and
figure out what's going on and seeing if we can come up with those answers
or eliminate some of these things you know that we believe. For example,
you know, you had Stephen Hawking who was interested in the Hawking radiation.
Well, the question was in his mind was does the UFO when it pops
in or pops out? Do you see any indications of Hawking radiation or an
indication that there's a wormhole that's being created? Well, do you know what
one looks like? Do you know? And what do we need to do
to be able to figure out because the witness the more we educate the witnesses
or even getting that data or having the right kind of information will help us
to do it. And does that mean that we need to be enlisting cameras
that go beyond the visible because we're tired of not getting anything, you know,
that's meaningful from the visible range of the spectrum. How about we go
into the old or violin how about if we go into the gate you know,
and these other ranges like infrared, near infrared, long you know,
far infrared. How about if we go into you know, and the spectrum
is pretty large. So I think that if we go and we look and
develop the means to be able to detect those kinds of things like gamma ray
radiation, or that we might be able to learn more about their operation and
their capability. Right, And so so that's what we're trying to say that
we need to really really focus on. And again, if we get scientists
engaged in that, which is very you know, encouraging to me, then
we might be able to then be able to collaborate, come up with ideas,
share, and really go at this thing in a way much more dedicated
approach that's going to yield some results. Because hey, look I didn't,
I haven't. I'm not in this fifty four years because I don't want to
get answers. I want to get answers, you know. And we can
we can talk on social media or do all this other stuff and not get
anywhere for any length of time and just create a wonderful mythology out there.
But I'm not interested in that, and I want to be able to get
past the mythology stuff and instead focus on what is it that we know about
or can do do is from these things that are being seen, Right,
And that's why I've stated in it for fifty four years to get answers.
I think this is all just really extremely exciting. Of course, what lou
Aleisander's working on is very exciting. What he shared this far is very exciting.
And what you are doing, I think that it's the perfect thing to
be going happening at this time. I mean, it's just a really exciting
time for this topic. I mean, would you agree with that? I
think it is. I think it's a very exciting time. And I think
that if we can keep the interest level up and we can help to develop
these kind of like you know, organizations like you know, SCU or whatever
or TCSA or whatever, you know, that that can keep the focus on
it and to build on it, you know, and to get actually some
support in terms of doing this, you know, Invisible College, if you
would, that we might be able to actually now get somewhere form maybe even
our own association and go from there or something like that. But but I
think that, you know, it's it's it's one of these gradual approaches and
we're fighting the big you know, the big fight, if you would,
in terms of getting getting two scientists who have basically shut the door on this
subject, you know, and said well, we're not going to even go
there. You know and and and I mean, I'll be honest with you.
There was one time where I went up to say, well, I
was like wanting to study about how to write a research paper. And on
the front page of that website that I went to, it said, as
an example, you don't want to write about UFOs. Oh wow, that's
hilarious. And this is the Yeah, this is like, you know,
so don't even broach the subject of UFOs on your research. And this was
on the front page of this like how to write a research paper. Right,
So I mean I'm going like, wow, well, we've got some
work to do, buddy, We've got we have to we have got some
serious work to do to change this around. And you know. And so
that's where we're trying to go. And it's one step at a time,
and it's you know, getting science moved back up into doing this. And
the more we can have this level of discussion when we have data where we
can talk about it and we can we can share data or we can that's
gonna be better. That will bring help to bring it on. And the
other thing is to create a means for them to have a safe conversation.
Because part of what I was trying to do here was you know, I
want to keep media out media per se, like you know, let's don't
have the TV stations coming in and uh, you know and airing this whole
thing all because Lo's there. And Lou was emphatic about not marketing him,
and I applaud him for that because he said, I didn't want I don't
want to be the thing that detracts from your scientific work. You get what
you know, you know, and that's a hell of a lot of integrity,
and I appreciate that on his from his standpoint, he said, I
don't want to become the detractor where all the news media wants to come in
and interview me. And I said, I agree, and in fact,
I don't, you know, I mean, my hope was that we would
avoid all that kind of stuff, primarily just to be able to get a
conversation where people from the base could talk about their military things in his safe
environment, knowing that it's not going to now be on the front page news.
You get what I'm saying, right right so exactly, And I do
want to get to because we're about out of time here, that it's not
necessarily completely open to the public. But you're looking for essentially like we've science
might professionals who are in this sort of arena. Yeah, and so we
are. We're trying to like basically go through and get a you know,
qualifying that that as we go through the attendees and stuff like that. So
we've got on our explore scu dot org website, we've got if you do
it, if you do the www dot explore scu dot org and then you
put a forward slash, then you put a a PC. We have a
place where you can go up and you can basically give us some information about
you and and then we could then make it, you know, help you
to then get say you're connected or you're not. We're just not looking to
get like you know, you know, Hi, I learned about UFOs yesterday
and I'm I'm interested in the subject. Because I'll be honest with you,
this conference is going to be way over your the general person's head, per
se. It's gonna be more science. It's not about you know, that's
all all UFO. Last that let me tell you the story, right,
So that's what that's not what we're doing. And the other thing is,
I mean I've made this thing at such a rate. I don't know if
you saw my rate right now. It's one hundred and fifty dollars to attend
the event, and that's good through the fifteenth of February, and then I'm
going to raise it to one seventy five. But guess what, I've got
a rate that makes it affordable because that includes four meals, two lunches,
and two dinners. Wow. So I mean, where can you go to
a conference this day for that kind of price with with people like this coming
in and doing it. And so my big concern was, my god,
the half the base was closed because of the government shutdown. NASA was closed,
also, the FBI was closed, and so there were a lot of
those people that are and the contractors took a big hit, you know,
and so they're hurting financially, and then there's the threat coming up on the
fifteen maybe another one, you know, right, so there they're being a
little bit hesitant about signing up and saying that they even want to spend that
little bit of money. So anyway, that's kind of like where we we
We set this thing up, and I think it's going to be fabulous,
I really do. And I'm looking forward to having any serious minded individuals that
have, you know, an interest in science and stuff like that, to
really be the ones that come. Well. Great, Well, thank you
so much for coming back on the show. I'm really excited about everything SEU
is doing. Of course, I've been involved with helping to develop SEU at
the beginning and everything, and I am just so extremely excited about the organization,
all of you involved with it and where it's headed. And it's great.
Keep up the great work. Thank you. I appreciate everything you do
for us, and I'm really I'm very sincere when I say that. Thank
you so much to Rich for joining a show that was so much fun.
Be sure to check out explore s CU dot org for more information about what
the SEU is up to, and if you aren't interested in that conference,
check that out. That should be a lot of fun. It's gonna be
very technical, so you know, you'll only want to go if you're into
that sort of thing. But I think the networking that will happen there is
gonna be very very important. But thank you very much. So when it
comes to the news that we talked about earlier in the show, be sure
to find all of that at openminds dot tv. Some of it won't be
up till later this week. I update the news every Thursday before my UFO
Live show on YouTube, and they have that on Thursday evenings at six pm
Arizona time, which is currently aligned with Mountain We don't change our time zone,
so that makes it a little funky, but time zones are just that
way, aren't they. But you can always also follow my social media because
I'm updating that every day, and you can find open MINDGUFO news on the
forum also on Facebook and follow that as well, and all of that information
you find an open mindset tv or at Alejandro Trojat dot com. The UFO
Congress has also got a blog where lots of UFO news is going up there
as well Ufocongress dot com. Be sure to get on the email list at
Ufocongress dot com because we're also setting updates now. These updates include UFO news,
but they also include really cool UFO and alien products at the store,
and they include updates on the conference itself, and that's going to be a
very important conference. Of course, this is one that everybody goes to,
and everybody's going to want to come to this next one, not just because
we've relocated to downtown Phoenix, which is going to be be a lot of
fun, but also because the speakers are great. We're going to be listening
those speakers really soon, so you're gonna want to be on that email list.
Remember, go to ufocongress dot com to get on that email list.
Otherwise we're gonna have another great show next week. Thank you all so much
for being here. Thank you to Caleb Hanks for the opening and close music.
Thank you to Martin for the moral support. I know he was thinking
of us even if he couldn't be here. Thank you to Systematics for the
bumper music, and of course, as usual, thank you the listeners for
being here. Until next time, Audio smooth Chuck as