WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.520 --> 00:00:08.080 A passionate instigator and dynamic problem solver. Doctor Kevin ross Emery, the host 2 00:00:08.119 --> 00:00:12.119 of the Doctor Kevin Radio Show. We'll be taking you outside the box, 3 00:00:12.400 --> 00:00:17.239 behind the curtain and identifying the load of bs we are fed every day. 4 00:00:17.600 --> 00:00:26.079 And now Doctor Kevin, Hello, Hello, hello, and welcome to the 5 00:00:26.199 --> 00:00:31.640 Doctor Kevin Show here on Home Times, where we're changing the world wait for 6 00:00:31.800 --> 00:00:36.439 it, one ooo mant a time. And here on the last Thursday of 7 00:00:36.479 --> 00:00:39.960 the month, as we have been doing all year on the last thursdays of 8 00:00:40.000 --> 00:00:46.520 the month, I am joined by my co host, Lori Powers Auto and 9 00:00:47.920 --> 00:00:52.799 Lori, We're always so glad to have you back. And I know that 10 00:00:53.560 --> 00:00:57.439 for some unforeseeable period of time this is going to be your last show with 11 00:00:57.520 --> 00:01:00.679 us. You have some other stuff going on, but I know I'm thrilled 12 00:01:00.799 --> 00:01:04.000 and the audience is thrilled that we get one more shot at having you on 13 00:01:04.120 --> 00:01:11.400 air with us. How are you doing. I'm doing fine. I'm just 14 00:01:11.760 --> 00:01:17.400 you know, you know life, But I always have always thrilled the co 15 00:01:17.480 --> 00:01:22.400 host with you and I it hurts me that I have to take some time 16 00:01:22.439 --> 00:01:26.879 off, but that you know life and the way it goes. But thank 17 00:01:26.920 --> 00:01:30.439 you for letting me be here tonight. I'm super super excited about our guests. 18 00:01:30.760 --> 00:01:38.040 I cannot wait to hear everything she has to say. Yep, you 19 00:01:38.079 --> 00:01:44.040 know I do. I am as well. And you know, just this 20 00:01:44.079 --> 00:01:49.959 week I was having a conversation going on one of my social media lines that 21 00:01:51.239 --> 00:01:57.799 about loving a child does not require blood a blood connection. Yes, and 22 00:01:59.640 --> 00:02:05.920 you know, there was some really interesting conversations we were having. But you 23 00:02:05.959 --> 00:02:19.840 know, I think that our inability at times in this society to recognize that 24 00:02:20.039 --> 00:02:24.240 children are not at fault for anything, and yet so often get punished for 25 00:02:24.319 --> 00:02:34.479 everything by you know, the people in charge intentionally unintentionally decisions that are made 26 00:02:34.520 --> 00:02:38.159 that hurt them down the road. And these four kids are coming in and 27 00:02:38.199 --> 00:02:44.919 it's just like, baby, I'm sorry first of all for this world we're 28 00:02:44.960 --> 00:02:52.479 handing you, but also that, you know, somehow you get put into 29 00:02:52.520 --> 00:02:57.000 a category of greater or lesser than by all sorts of things you had no 30 00:02:57.120 --> 00:03:02.680 control over, from socioeconomy, US standards, economic standards, to gender, 31 00:03:04.199 --> 00:03:07.520 to race, I mean, you name it. Some of these four kids 32 00:03:07.560 --> 00:03:13.199 come in and they've got nothing but a world to hurt waiting for them that 33 00:03:13.240 --> 00:03:17.400 they're going to have to fight through and in some cases they're the ones that 34 00:03:19.520 --> 00:03:25.879 are changing the world. Yeah, so would you, So let me introduce 35 00:03:25.919 --> 00:03:30.560 tonight's guest. We'll get this conversation under way. I do want to remind 36 00:03:30.599 --> 00:03:34.719 our audience that this is a live call in show. So if you'd like 37 00:03:34.759 --> 00:03:39.280 to call in and have a conversation, be part of this conversation, ask 38 00:03:39.400 --> 00:03:44.759 questions, share comments, or life experiences, you are welcome to do. 39 00:03:44.800 --> 00:03:47.319 So you call in at two O two five seven H seven O five seven. 40 00:03:47.560 --> 00:03:52.479 Again, that's two O two five seven H seven O five seven. 41 00:03:53.680 --> 00:04:01.560 Tonight's guest is Lorraine Dusky. She's an advocate for adopted adoptees rights fought for 42 00:04:01.680 --> 00:04:08.520 legislation that would unseal original birth certificates. But she's not only a courageous woman 43 00:04:08.879 --> 00:04:13.120 who wrote about having given up a child on other topics. She was a 44 00:04:13.159 --> 00:04:20.199 finalist for the National Magazine Award and won two Exceptional Merit Media Awards, also 45 00:04:20.240 --> 00:04:26.879 known as Emma's from the National Woman's Political Caucus, for writing on the political 46 00:04:27.000 --> 00:04:31.199 issues of the day. We have political issues today. I didn't know that 47 00:04:31.680 --> 00:04:38.560 they've been hiding from me. Lorain has released a second book, her first 48 00:04:38.600 --> 00:04:43.800 in nineteen seventy nine her Memoi birthmark Whole in my Heart. It is a 49 00:04:43.839 --> 00:04:47.600 story of love, loss and redemption. There's a story of a woman's heart 50 00:04:47.800 --> 00:04:57.040 broken and mended. You can find out more about Lorraine Lorraine's website First motherfum 51 00:04:57.439 --> 00:05:04.120 dot com. That is First mother Forum dot com. Lorraine, welcome, 52 00:05:05.519 --> 00:05:13.199 Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. LORI would you would you 53 00:05:13.600 --> 00:05:18.720 like to kick us off with some questions? Well, I I do have 54 00:05:18.839 --> 00:05:21.759 questions. I'm not going I'm trying to figure out how to phrase them. 55 00:05:21.800 --> 00:05:30.800 I have six cousins that are adopted, and I know that at least one 56 00:05:30.839 --> 00:05:35.680 of them had to fight, like the Dickens will keep it clean to just 57 00:05:36.160 --> 00:05:42.959 mind any information about his birth family, and that just seems so wrong to 58 00:05:43.000 --> 00:05:46.519 me. So I am so excited that you are an advocate for not only 59 00:05:46.560 --> 00:05:51.680 the children, but the parents that had to give up the children for whatever 60 00:05:51.720 --> 00:05:59.439 reason. My one of my stepmothers was forced to give up her children when 61 00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:03.439 they were very little and didn't get to reconnect to them with them until they 62 00:06:03.439 --> 00:06:10.199 were in their forties. So this just seems wrong to me, right that 63 00:06:10.319 --> 00:06:15.759 you so? So I cannot tell you how I cannot tell you how. 64 00:06:16.199 --> 00:06:23.759 I mean, I'm kind of teary already because so often people come at this 65 00:06:23.879 --> 00:06:28.480 from the other side. I mean, my first memoir was published in nineteen 66 00:06:28.519 --> 00:06:31.720 seventy nine, and I had, in a way come out of my closet, 67 00:06:31.800 --> 00:06:36.920 which I'm not gay because I say that people sometimes think that, but 68 00:06:38.040 --> 00:06:43.120 my closet of being secret birth mother in nineteen seventy five, and it was 69 00:06:43.360 --> 00:06:46.439 early, no one had done it yet, and I got to tell you, 70 00:06:46.720 --> 00:06:50.639 I mean, I had the I want to keep it clean thrown at 71 00:06:50.680 --> 00:06:59.079 me from at at dinner tables behind my back. So to hear you say 72 00:06:59.120 --> 00:07:03.839 that is is I just think how far the world has because it's so true. 73 00:07:04.240 --> 00:07:08.399 Adopted, I mean, let me let me just say that. When 74 00:07:08.439 --> 00:07:14.439 I gave up my child for adoption in nineteen sixty six, I was going 75 00:07:15.519 --> 00:07:17.480 I mean I wasn't married. I didn't. I just didn't feel I had 76 00:07:17.480 --> 00:07:21.759 a choice, and the father wanted this to happen, and I mean I 77 00:07:21.879 --> 00:07:29.560 ended up there, but it was somewhere along the line discouraged that my daught 78 00:07:29.959 --> 00:07:35.920 I didn't it was a boy or a girl at that point to find out 79 00:07:36.319 --> 00:07:42.399 who I I wasn't there saying, you know, I demand this to that, 80 00:07:42.839 --> 00:07:46.120 but I just couldn't believe the laws were like that, because it seems 81 00:07:46.199 --> 00:07:51.680 so inhumane on the face of it to tell a person not yet born, 82 00:07:51.839 --> 00:07:59.040 we're going to take your your actual identity at birth away from you and never 83 00:07:59.120 --> 00:08:01.800 give it back you. And I argued with my social worker at the time 84 00:08:01.800 --> 00:08:05.399 because I thought, well, we're to college graduate. You know, we're 85 00:08:05.480 --> 00:08:09.199 good people. I'm not a drug addict enough. You know I can find 86 00:08:09.519 --> 00:08:13.079 they certainly they can find a parent. They can find parents for me. 87 00:08:13.639 --> 00:08:18.519 That will not go along with having an open adoption. I mean, I 88 00:08:18.560 --> 00:08:20.720 didn't know the word open adoption, but that's what I was asking for. 89 00:08:22.120 --> 00:08:26.639 And finally my social worker, who I got along with extremely well, looked 90 00:08:26.639 --> 00:08:30.600 at me and said, if you're going to insist on that, we can't 91 00:08:30.639 --> 00:08:33.840 help you. I cannot help you. You will have to find another way 92 00:08:33.879 --> 00:08:39.639 to this adoption. I was twenty two, I was in a thousand miles 93 00:08:39.639 --> 00:08:46.639 from my parents, who did not know that I was pregnant, and I 94 00:08:46.799 --> 00:08:50.720 resources, except you know the fact that the father was at that time supporting 95 00:08:50.720 --> 00:08:56.759 me, didn't have a choice. I just had to go along with the 96 00:08:56.879 --> 00:09:01.480 law that was in place with put place in New York nineteen thirty six, 97 00:09:01.759 --> 00:09:09.919 which is the laws is that time still before that and up and through the 98 00:09:09.080 --> 00:09:16.000 sixties, some states had open records and at that time and Alabama had open 99 00:09:16.399 --> 00:09:26.759 did not have still they never took the the adopted person, and so but 100 00:09:28.200 --> 00:09:35.000 I had to go on. And when I read about a group of adoptees 101 00:09:35.039 --> 00:09:39.919 in the in the some theas in the New York Times called the Adopting Liberty 102 00:09:41.000 --> 00:09:46.120 Movement Association, it was like a warm bath rain rain that came over me 103 00:09:46.279 --> 00:09:52.159 because I was suffering in silence, and just to know that the adopted people 104 00:09:52.200 --> 00:09:58.200 wanted to know who what their roots, for who their parents were, was 105 00:09:58.320 --> 00:10:01.799 like manner from heaven for me. And soon after that I got involved in 106 00:10:01.840 --> 00:10:09.360 the movement myself and realized eventually as I was testifying in court for a woman 107 00:10:09.360 --> 00:10:15.919 who wanted to find your records in nineteen seventy five, seventy four, seventy 108 00:10:15.919 --> 00:10:18.879 five, I can't remember the years. Then it's in my book. I 109 00:10:18.919 --> 00:10:26.840 should know it that I needed to testify not as a woman, as an 110 00:10:26.840 --> 00:10:30.919 anonymous mother, because who would believe me? You could hire an actor to 111 00:10:30.960 --> 00:10:35.799 do that. I guess even if I swore so I at that point I 112 00:10:35.080 --> 00:10:41.759 used my real name, and soon after that, knowing that the press could 113 00:10:41.799 --> 00:10:46.039 have covered this case but hadn't, I went home to Michigan and told my 114 00:10:46.080 --> 00:10:50.440 mother and my two brothers. My father was deceased by then, And soon 115 00:10:50.519 --> 00:10:54.879 after that I wrote a piece about that case was in the New York Times 116 00:10:54.919 --> 00:10:58.840 called Yearney in March of nineteen seventy five, and I guess that was the 117 00:11:01.360 --> 00:11:05.799 that that that obviously changed my life. And after that I really was very 118 00:11:05.879 --> 00:11:11.200 much involved in opening up the records for adopted people. Well, thank you, 119 00:11:11.639 --> 00:11:18.600 because that was incredibly brave. Well, and there there are all sorts 120 00:11:18.639 --> 00:11:22.840 of closets we get to come out of day only being one of them. 121 00:11:22.600 --> 00:11:35.279 Uh, But you know it's not only is it from a connect to my 122 00:11:35.480 --> 00:11:43.480 ancestors. Where did I come from? What is? My family? Can 123 00:11:43.519 --> 00:11:52.039 be so important in the foundation of a person's life, but now more than 124 00:11:52.120 --> 00:11:56.600 ever, And I know it's different today, but this has always been true. 125 00:11:58.279 --> 00:12:03.919 Knowing the medical history of your ancestors can be crucial. Yes, yes, 126 00:12:05.080 --> 00:12:09.759 show up well one of I mean I met a NADALPHI once who lobbying 127 00:12:09.799 --> 00:12:15.639 with me when we were lobbing in New York and she was saying she was 128 00:12:15.679 --> 00:12:20.480 being put through all kinds of expensive and then the test. You never medical 129 00:12:20.559 --> 00:12:26.360 records. If you go in and you don't, you're the first thing that 130 00:12:26.399 --> 00:12:30.120 happens that any doc you go to is you get pages to fill out about 131 00:12:30.120 --> 00:12:35.279 a medical history. And that, in fact, is what galvanized a woman 132 00:12:35.360 --> 00:12:41.679 named Florence Sisher who had started them association after an accident. When the doctor's 133 00:12:41.720 --> 00:12:45.519 office hand a piece of paper, she just had to write and I have 134 00:12:45.639 --> 00:12:50.679 no medical history. And she decided then she was going to do what was 135 00:12:50.159 --> 00:12:54.720 changed. And that was an article about her and other people in the New 136 00:12:54.759 --> 00:13:00.440 York Times that just opened. I feel like the scales fell from my eyes 137 00:13:00.919 --> 00:13:03.960 that I could do this. I wasn't crazy, I wasn't wrong. And 138 00:13:03.039 --> 00:13:07.120 just as they wanted to know who I was, maybe my daughter oh and 139 00:13:07.240 --> 00:13:09.720 would be one of them. And I was going to do what I could 140 00:13:09.720 --> 00:13:16.360 to change the law. So medical records are crucial. Now. DNA is 141 00:13:16.600 --> 00:13:24.840 changing the situation a little bit because people are finding relatives. You can find 142 00:13:24.879 --> 00:13:28.240 a cousin or something like that, and ultimately somebody in that family, if 143 00:13:28.240 --> 00:13:33.759 you connect to them, usually can Usually you can figure out, but not 144 00:13:33.840 --> 00:13:37.720 always who the mother is, but not only but that's in a way, 145 00:13:39.159 --> 00:13:43.240 a way around the law. I mean about only about I think it's fourteen 146 00:13:43.320 --> 00:13:48.440 states right now give adopted people the unadulterated right to just go in and get 147 00:13:48.440 --> 00:13:54.399 their birth certificate. Whatever name is on it. Now, in the case 148 00:13:54.519 --> 00:13:58.759 of most adoptees, it will not have a father's name, and unfortunately, 149 00:13:58.799 --> 00:14:05.919 instead of saying father unnamed, it says father unknown, which gives the adoptees 150 00:14:05.960 --> 00:14:09.639 the feeling that their mother was a loose woman and she didn't know whose name 151 00:14:09.720 --> 00:14:16.200 to put down. But that was the legal thing that is designed by some 152 00:14:16.320 --> 00:14:22.399 person I'm going to say man, because they probably was thought about what would 153 00:14:22.399 --> 00:14:26.159 it actually mean to the adopted perse coming back. I mean, it's until 154 00:14:26.240 --> 00:14:31.720 they began realizing that all states up that way, and that it didn't mean 155 00:14:31.759 --> 00:14:35.759 that the mother didn't know who the father was. It just meant that that's 156 00:14:35.799 --> 00:14:39.559 what that was the lingo that the state decided to use on the birth certificates. 157 00:14:39.200 --> 00:14:45.279 It's been a long difficult fight though, to open these these records because 158 00:14:45.519 --> 00:14:50.559 now the legislators say, oh, we can't because we promised these mothers, 159 00:14:50.039 --> 00:14:56.679 well, they never really asked mothers. It was really done at the behest 160 00:14:56.120 --> 00:15:07.480 of agencies and adoptive parents, but one single woman who actually stole babies and 161 00:15:07.840 --> 00:15:13.240 tricked mothers, poor mothers into signing papers they didn't understand, and then was 162 00:15:13.279 --> 00:15:18.039 selling these babies to people like Joan Crawford. And in fact, we're pretty 163 00:15:18.080 --> 00:15:22.879 sure of the governor of New York of Governor Layman had two of these children, 164 00:15:24.440 --> 00:15:31.000 and it was in her interest to have the all the records sealed, 165 00:15:31.360 --> 00:15:35.080 so this would prevent the mothers from complaining or there was nothing they could do 166 00:15:35.080 --> 00:15:39.720 if if, if they could never find where what happened to their child. 167 00:15:39.159 --> 00:15:46.159 So this movement took off across the country over the decades that they and state 168 00:15:46.200 --> 00:15:52.480 after state sealed their records without really thinking, I think, without thinking what 169 00:15:52.600 --> 00:15:56.840 this would mean to the adoptive person, because on one level, it's it's 170 00:15:56.000 --> 00:16:00.559 it's like slavery, it's emotional slavery. To just say you came by the 171 00:16:00.679 --> 00:16:04.360 stork and you have no history, you have no medical history, and none 172 00:16:04.360 --> 00:16:07.919 of that was thought through at the time. All I can say about it 173 00:16:07.960 --> 00:16:12.960 is bad social engineering at its very worst, and it's wrong. It's so 174 00:16:14.279 --> 00:16:17.360 I mean an adopted person can do everything else and get married, then go 175 00:16:17.399 --> 00:16:19.480 to war. They get divorced and go to jailic and the crimes and get 176 00:16:19.480 --> 00:16:26.000 a driver's license, but they can't really get in these all these other states. 177 00:16:26.000 --> 00:16:30.919 An unamended copy of the original birth certificate. I have decided on soapbox 178 00:16:33.679 --> 00:16:38.039 it's okay, and one of the things I'd like to point out, and 179 00:16:38.080 --> 00:16:45.879 then I'm gonna see what other questions Laurie has is so I have adoption from 180 00:16:45.919 --> 00:16:52.279 three different perspectives in my life. I was involved with somebody for two and 181 00:16:52.320 --> 00:16:59.000 a half years that was adopted and saw what they went through, you know, 182 00:16:59.200 --> 00:17:07.559 in their late twice. And then my current husband, his sister was 183 00:17:07.599 --> 00:17:11.319 adopted out, but it was a private adoption and everybody knew what everybody was 184 00:17:11.400 --> 00:17:15.880 and when the time was right, he met what was his half sister and 185 00:17:15.920 --> 00:17:21.880 they became very close as teenagers because they decided all the kids were mature enough. 186 00:17:22.200 --> 00:17:30.200 And seeing the difference between what my sister in law and how she functions 187 00:17:30.279 --> 00:17:36.640 in and around her adoption, and hearing the story from her birth mother as 188 00:17:36.680 --> 00:17:41.480 to why she gave her up and why she needed to and what you know, 189 00:17:41.640 --> 00:17:45.599 and how she shows. These people, she knew them, she knew 190 00:17:45.599 --> 00:17:48.400 them personally, she knew they'd been wanting a baby and couldn't have one. 191 00:17:49.119 --> 00:17:53.720 She would be able to watch from a distance, you know, made such 192 00:17:53.720 --> 00:18:00.359 a huge emotional and mental difference to how she handled the concept of adoption. 193 00:18:02.400 --> 00:18:08.319 Where my act was was tortured the whole time I knew him with that, 194 00:18:10.240 --> 00:18:12.200 why did my mother not want me? Why did I Why did my parents 195 00:18:12.279 --> 00:18:17.279 not want me? And then you know, the third perspective is, you 196 00:18:17.279 --> 00:18:21.720 know, I've been a spiritual catalyst for over thirty years, working with people 197 00:18:21.720 --> 00:18:26.799 on all sorts of issues. I've had several clients that had either have given 198 00:18:26.880 --> 00:18:32.359 up kids for adoption or who have been adopted. And the emotional and mental 199 00:18:32.519 --> 00:18:41.400 and even spiritual turmoil of not knowing, especially from the adoptees a point, 200 00:18:41.480 --> 00:18:45.720 not knowing the story. It's so devastating. And I and you know, 201 00:18:47.960 --> 00:18:52.160 the toxical white men in the suits, they don't get it well, I 202 00:18:52.279 --> 00:18:56.279 think is I mean, I've talked to a lot of eleven figures over the 203 00:18:56.359 --> 00:19:03.599 years, and I have and I and I've been attacked quite by many. 204 00:19:04.400 --> 00:19:11.240 I didn McNeil lairb report on on PBS about i'd say twenty years ago at 205 00:19:11.240 --> 00:19:15.839 this point, and the lawyers there just were, you know, like Hyena's 206 00:19:15.880 --> 00:19:18.680 ready to you know, chew me up. The adoption lawyers because their clients 207 00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:22.359 are not the birth mothers. Their clients are not the adoptees. Usually their 208 00:19:22.400 --> 00:19:27.960 clients have the adoptive parents who are fearful of that relationship, which is so 209 00:19:29.079 --> 00:19:37.000 harmful to the adopted person because I mean I have talked to so many adoptees 210 00:19:37.000 --> 00:19:38.880 who say, well, I campering it up at home because I know it 211 00:19:38.880 --> 00:19:42.680 would kill my parents or it would hurt their feelings, and so they never 212 00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:48.680 mentioned it. The adoptive parents tell me, like, well, my daughter 213 00:19:48.799 --> 00:19:51.799 or son they never mention it. Well, they never mention it because they're 214 00:19:51.799 --> 00:19:56.279 afraid to mention it. It should be treated as a fact of life in 215 00:19:56.319 --> 00:20:00.920 this family situation and be and about it. And then it just kind of 216 00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:06.119 it was the release of air of secrecy, and it is. It would 217 00:20:06.119 --> 00:20:11.599 be healthier for everybody. So I just there's so much pain involved in adoption 218 00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:17.920 that goes unrecognized in the world. I do believe that some of my staunchest 219 00:20:17.920 --> 00:20:23.160 appoint opponents, men who have are who have attacked me at dinner parties, 220 00:20:23.200 --> 00:20:26.240 for instance, and that has happened, like out of them think they know 221 00:20:26.279 --> 00:20:30.680 who I am, because when in seventy nine my book came out and I 222 00:20:30.680 --> 00:20:34.559 did on my turn in Newsweek, which really rankled a lot of people. 223 00:20:34.599 --> 00:20:40.799 And I think it was it's called who is My Daughter? And people who 224 00:20:40.880 --> 00:20:45.680 seem to have no connection to adoption, this would be men just would you 225 00:20:45.680 --> 00:20:48.440 know. I heard people talk about it when I wasn't there, and it 226 00:20:48.519 --> 00:20:52.519 was always some guy prounding the table, probably with a little bit too much 227 00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:56.680 wine. And I came to feel in my gut that those men are probably 228 00:20:56.799 --> 00:21:02.920 fathers of children that they that they have never talked about to their families, 229 00:21:02.920 --> 00:21:06.960 and they are afraid of that child coming back. Because there's no reason that 230 00:21:07.000 --> 00:21:11.559 a man would get so exercised about this if it unless it's personally affecting him. 231 00:21:12.200 --> 00:21:19.079 Women have a Women it takes this differently, whether they're not they've had 232 00:21:19.160 --> 00:21:23.119 children or something. I don't mean some of them aren't opposed, but they 233 00:21:23.240 --> 00:21:29.319 under there's a sense of understanding what it means to have a child and give 234 00:21:29.359 --> 00:21:33.279 it up or and women are the ones who are most likely to search, 235 00:21:33.400 --> 00:21:37.440 but not always as you know, but if you look at the adoptee groups, 236 00:21:37.519 --> 00:21:42.519 it's it's highly peopled by women, by you know, like more than 237 00:21:42.960 --> 00:21:47.759 three quarters. It's all women. I'd say seven eighths of the people who 238 00:21:47.839 --> 00:21:52.039 I know who have searched or are involved in trying to change the law are 239 00:21:52.079 --> 00:21:56.599 women. Now are you saying, and I promised to let Laurie ask a 240 00:21:56.720 --> 00:22:00.359 question, but I gotta get this out. Are you saying when you say 241 00:22:00.440 --> 00:22:07.559 seven eighths, are they people looking for their parents or parents looking for their 242 00:22:07.640 --> 00:22:12.400 children. I would say there are many, many, many more children looking 243 00:22:12.440 --> 00:22:18.039 for their parents. I don't know. I have no figures what that seven 244 00:22:18.079 --> 00:22:22.559 eights was was the number of adoptees will be seven at least seven eights women 245 00:22:22.920 --> 00:22:26.920 compared to a very small number of men that I know about. I've never 246 00:22:26.960 --> 00:22:30.119 seen a statistic on this, but I've gone to a lot of adopted groups. 247 00:22:30.160 --> 00:22:34.960 I just came back from a what's called a meet up, like a 248 00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:41.680 weekend retreat. There were about thirty people there and there were four guys. 249 00:22:41.720 --> 00:22:47.839 I think, well, and I think that that number will change, and 250 00:22:47.920 --> 00:22:52.440 I think I bet it has been changing. And the reason why is, 251 00:22:53.039 --> 00:22:56.799 you know, my again, I'm going back to my acts. This was 252 00:22:57.240 --> 00:23:06.119 not in the eighties and the struggle he had with his adoption. But men 253 00:23:06.359 --> 00:23:12.720 oftentimes were trained that they shouldn't have emotions, that they shouldn't go into the 254 00:23:12.759 --> 00:23:18.640 emotions that you don't want to know, and so they're almost made to feel 255 00:23:18.880 --> 00:23:23.920 like it's an unmasculine thing to do. To chase who are your parents doesn't 256 00:23:23.920 --> 00:23:32.559 make anything. And I really think as we wean away from toxic male children, 257 00:23:33.319 --> 00:23:37.160 and it's not fast enough, as far as I'm concerned, that you 258 00:23:37.240 --> 00:23:41.839 will see more male adopted children be like, hey, I get to have 259 00:23:41.920 --> 00:23:47.440 a right to know who my parents were. So I couldn't agree. I 260 00:23:47.480 --> 00:23:52.119 couldn't agree more. I also think that since they're there's been more about searching 261 00:23:52.119 --> 00:23:56.640 and the records are becoming open. It's easy. I mean, look, 262 00:23:56.680 --> 00:23:59.160 if you live in one of these states where the records they are open, 263 00:23:59.519 --> 00:24:03.079 you just right away for your birth certificate. It doesn't come overnight. It 264 00:24:03.119 --> 00:24:04.960 may take a couple of weeks or even a couple of months, but you 265 00:24:06.039 --> 00:24:11.279 will get your birth certificates. Now, not every birth certificate has the truth. 266 00:24:11.440 --> 00:24:15.480 Some of the older birth certificates they're going to be not forged as much 267 00:24:15.519 --> 00:24:25.319 as that that some well meaning person to see for whatever reason, writes down 268 00:24:25.400 --> 00:24:32.319 somebody writes down Mary Smith when it's really in a Brahma Woods. So that 269 00:24:32.359 --> 00:24:34.599 can happen, and that's where DNA and a lot of other things come in. 270 00:24:34.960 --> 00:24:38.400 But at least it's a start, and at least it treats the adopted 271 00:24:38.480 --> 00:24:44.079 person as equal to the rest of us who have always known where we came 272 00:24:44.119 --> 00:24:49.119 from. Right right, And I have not a question but something to support 273 00:24:49.200 --> 00:24:55.480 your argument there. I did work with a girl who didn't know she was 274 00:24:55.559 --> 00:25:03.960 adopted and telling her early twenties she had an act event and they to know 275 00:25:03.440 --> 00:25:10.799 her medical history, her family's medical history. That's when her parents finally told 276 00:25:10.799 --> 00:25:15.880 her she was adopted. It devastated her one They lied to her her entire 277 00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:22.440 life, and she would turn had some inherited medical issues from her birth parents 278 00:25:22.759 --> 00:25:25.759 that if she hadn't had the accident, God only knows when she would have, 279 00:25:25.839 --> 00:25:29.960 you know what would have happened, or she was at least in her 280 00:25:29.960 --> 00:25:33.839 twenties. I've heard stories that I've heard stories of people in their fifties who 281 00:25:34.039 --> 00:25:40.960 you know, when they find out at the funeral of their parents somebody assumes 282 00:25:40.599 --> 00:25:47.319 the you know, wake or the reception afterwards that they have known, and 283 00:25:47.400 --> 00:25:53.200 it the truth of their origins comes out like that, and they talk about 284 00:25:53.279 --> 00:25:56.359 devastated. And I think one of the worst cases I know, and it 285 00:25:56.400 --> 00:26:00.920 was this woman was m'd say, in her thirties. She was having a 286 00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:06.640 fight with her husband and she said something about her mother and he shouted back, 287 00:26:06.759 --> 00:26:11.000 She's not even your mother. You're adopted. The adoptive parents had told 288 00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:17.440 had chosen to tell him, maybe because they were afraid of telling her. 289 00:26:17.480 --> 00:26:22.200 And your reaction is absolutely right. I gasped when I heard that story too, 290 00:26:22.279 --> 00:26:26.039 because it's so horrible. So how can you ever trust your parents again 291 00:26:26.039 --> 00:26:30.440 if they keep this secret. Children need to know as soon as the age 292 00:26:30.440 --> 00:26:34.000 of reason, when they say where did I come from? You have to 293 00:26:34.039 --> 00:26:37.920 tell them the truth. You tell them a truth in a way that they 294 00:26:37.960 --> 00:26:41.880 can understand it. And then, as I mean my unfortunately, my daughter's 295 00:26:41.920 --> 00:26:47.640 adoptive parents did just that. In fact, this is kind of amusing. 296 00:26:48.119 --> 00:26:52.119 They started telling her she was adopted, but they didn't really explain what it 297 00:26:52.160 --> 00:26:56.680 meant, and she thought she was five or so. She thought they were 298 00:26:56.720 --> 00:27:03.759 telling her that she was a doctor. Until she replated. Until she got 299 00:27:03.759 --> 00:27:06.920 a little older, she fun and she kept thinking, why are they killing 300 00:27:06.920 --> 00:27:10.920 me? Iland? Doctor? But anyway, so kids need to know is 301 00:27:11.240 --> 00:27:15.279 why when they ask where did I come from? Or when they ask basic 302 00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:23.200 biological questions. So I know any minute now we're going to be going on 303 00:27:23.359 --> 00:27:30.319 break. But as we're closing out the first part of our show, I'm 304 00:27:30.359 --> 00:27:34.839 going to fess up that I accidentally lied about something and I'll fill you in 305 00:27:34.880 --> 00:27:48.559 when we come back. Oh Wow. Conscious Media for Conscious Minds. Home 306 00:27:48.680 --> 00:27:55.559 Times host your show on IOMFM, the radio network of Home Times Media, 307 00:27:55.759 --> 00:27:59.920 one of the more recognized brand names in the conscious community and is backed by 308 00:28:00.039 --> 00:28:04.799 the extensive marketing reach of Home Times. Hosting a show on IMFM immediately connects 309 00:28:04.839 --> 00:28:12.400 you with our extensive, dedicated community. Vox Novas the New Voice, vox 310 00:28:12.559 --> 00:28:19.759 Novas the New Dimension. Vox Novas thought and movement leaders who will share from 311 00:28:19.799 --> 00:28:26.200 their experience and offer tools to help us navigate our rapidly changing world. My 312 00:28:26.400 --> 00:28:32.799 name is Victor Furman. Join me every Thursday at eight pm Eastern on All 313 00:28:32.960 --> 00:28:41.359 Times Radio for Vox Novas the New Voice. Ascending Hearts is no ordinary dating 314 00:28:41.400 --> 00:28:45.000 site, but a spiritual dating site with a purpose to link you with your 315 00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:51.599 soulmate. We engineer the serendipity so you can trust that you will attune with 316 00:28:51.680 --> 00:28:56.519 someone that has the same matching vibration as you. Ascending Hearts the Conscious dating 317 00:28:56.559 --> 00:29:03.279 site for the spiritually aware. Try sending Hearts for free Ascending Hearts dot com. 318 00:29:03.319 --> 00:29:07.720 If I could be you and you could be me for just one hour, 319 00:29:07.079 --> 00:29:11.480 if you could find a way to get inside each other's mind qualcom. 320 00:29:11.559 --> 00:29:15.759 Mile in my Shoes, Welcome, Mile in my Shoes. Welcome in my 321 00:29:17.000 --> 00:29:21.640 Shoes. We've all felt left out, and for some that feeling lasts more 322 00:29:21.680 --> 00:29:25.839 than a moment. We can change that. Learn how it belonging begins with 323 00:29:25.920 --> 00:29:30.519 us dot org. Brought to you by the AD Council. Welcome out in 324 00:29:30.640 --> 00:29:42.519 the Shoes. Hello, Hello, Hello, and welcome back to the Doctor 325 00:29:42.599 --> 00:29:47.319 Kevin Show. Remember we are a live call in show, so you've been 326 00:29:47.400 --> 00:29:49.640 call in with your questions at two O two five seven H seven O five 327 00:29:49.720 --> 00:29:53.359 seven. That's two O two five seven h seven oh five seven. We 328 00:29:53.440 --> 00:30:02.000 are on tonight. Lorie Auto Power Powers Auto and I are on. Oh 329 00:30:02.000 --> 00:30:07.359 I'd done that for a long time with Lorraine Dusky. Lorraine fought for the 330 00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:15.359 legislation that would unseal original birthtti ticket. She has two books out and her 331 00:30:15.359 --> 00:30:18.680 most recent book is Whole in My Heart, A Story of love, loss 332 00:30:18.759 --> 00:30:23.720 and redemption, the story of a woman's heart broken and mended. You can 333 00:30:23.759 --> 00:30:32.119 find out more about Lorraine at First motherfum dot com. That's First mother Forum 334 00:30:32.200 --> 00:30:38.279 dot com. And as I was saying at break, I accidentally lied because 335 00:30:38.279 --> 00:30:42.839 I said I had three different perspectives on adoption, and you told your story, 336 00:30:44.240 --> 00:30:53.880 and you know it's it's interesting because my two older half brothers were adopted 337 00:30:56.400 --> 00:31:07.279 by my father and but they are no, they were not told. Uh 338 00:31:07.640 --> 00:31:12.559 you know, I came along, they didn't have any memories of their first 339 00:31:12.599 --> 00:31:21.640 father. I'm everything was going fine, and then my parents divorced and my 340 00:31:21.720 --> 00:31:30.240 mother married this man who was insanely jealous of my father and blurted out at 341 00:31:30.279 --> 00:31:34.319 some point out of nowhere that I wasn't even their brother, that they were 342 00:31:34.400 --> 00:31:40.359 adopted and that they had a different father and sprung it on them. And 343 00:31:40.440 --> 00:31:47.839 I think they were like nine and eleven. Well, death, death better 344 00:31:47.880 --> 00:31:55.160 than twenty nine. Death is better than twenty nine and thirty one. Well, 345 00:31:55.400 --> 00:32:00.680 it was used as a weapon though, so yeah, but anyways, 346 00:32:00.279 --> 00:32:04.039 I was like, oh my god, yes I do have another relationship with 347 00:32:04.079 --> 00:32:10.079 adoption, but anyways, would they adopted actually physically, I mean with the 348 00:32:10.599 --> 00:32:15.480 was the paperwork done? Because I have a half brother also, but I 349 00:32:15.599 --> 00:32:20.480 found and there was his father was nowhere around when I was growing up at 350 00:32:20.480 --> 00:32:22.640 all, and I found out when I wanted, I asked my mother. 351 00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:28.079 I went to Catholic school and I was making my first communion and I was 352 00:32:28.160 --> 00:32:30.839 suddenly wondered, why isn't mother going to communion. Now, my dad didn't 353 00:32:30.839 --> 00:32:35.000 go to church except on the holiday, so that wasn't an issue. But 354 00:32:35.759 --> 00:32:38.400 and at that point, that's when she told me that my older brother was 355 00:32:38.440 --> 00:32:42.680 my half brother, and there was another man, another father, et cetera. 356 00:32:43.160 --> 00:32:46.279 And it was I was seven. She cried, I cried, etcetera. 357 00:32:46.440 --> 00:32:52.200 Was because in the late sixties that was a very big deal in the 358 00:32:52.279 --> 00:32:57.960 Catholic church. And but we got through it. And I have always been 359 00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:01.200 grateful that my mother told the true to me at that point. So it 360 00:33:01.599 --> 00:33:06.359 is devastating when it when when it's blurted out, But that does happen to 361 00:33:06.519 --> 00:33:12.720 so many adoptees, like a cousin can know, okay, and adopted cousin 362 00:33:13.640 --> 00:33:15.759 they know because his parents know, and they have talked about it, and 363 00:33:15.799 --> 00:33:21.640 they and and let's say these two boys or whatever are fighting and the one 364 00:33:21.680 --> 00:33:27.559 cousin who knows will say, well, you're adopted. You see, parents 365 00:33:27.599 --> 00:33:32.200 do a lot of damage by not telling. Yeah. Yeah, I mean 366 00:33:32.359 --> 00:33:37.920 my brothers were legally adopted. They had my father's last name. It turned 367 00:33:37.920 --> 00:33:44.359 out to be kind of an ugly story. And I'm not against people. 368 00:33:44.400 --> 00:33:46.559 I think kids should be told. I absolutely think kids should be told. 369 00:33:46.599 --> 00:33:50.599 I don't think that was the right choice, you know, of course, 370 00:33:50.680 --> 00:33:54.359 not of course, to keep it from them. I don't believe that that 371 00:33:54.480 --> 00:33:58.480 that was a right choice. I mean they were like, they were like 372 00:33:58.599 --> 00:34:01.079 nine and eleven, and it's like kind of the age again, at that 373 00:34:01.119 --> 00:34:07.800 age of consciousness and stuff like this. But you know, it was basically 374 00:34:09.599 --> 00:34:14.559 used as a weapon to say they didn't have to have anything to do with 375 00:34:14.599 --> 00:34:19.519 the man they called dad, and I was I was not really related to 376 00:34:19.559 --> 00:34:22.840 them. They were related to each other. So that's why I say it 377 00:34:22.920 --> 00:34:27.440 was an ugly situation. Oh well, no, that is that was a 378 00:34:27.559 --> 00:34:34.119 terrible situation. But you know, if they were legally adopted even though their 379 00:34:34.239 --> 00:34:38.000 mother would you know, they had every they could find out who their father 380 00:34:38.159 --> 00:34:43.880 was because the mother was around, but their their birth certificates were changed. 381 00:34:44.920 --> 00:34:50.960 Yep. And I actually because both my brothers passed at a fairly young age 382 00:34:52.239 --> 00:34:55.519 due to accidents, and I actually have And this is the other way people 383 00:34:55.639 --> 00:35:01.159 kids find out. I actually have their original birth at thiccates. That's saying 384 00:35:01.760 --> 00:35:07.400 the first man, because I inherited all the family paperwork. And that's the 385 00:35:07.440 --> 00:35:12.360 other way an adoptee can find out is that you know, it's not even 386 00:35:12.400 --> 00:35:15.960 somebody mentions that at the funeral if they go through all the paperwork from their 387 00:35:15.039 --> 00:35:22.239 parents, and if you have parents like mine, they kept every last seat 388 00:35:22.480 --> 00:35:28.960 right and uh yeah they would have. They would if it had not come 389 00:35:29.039 --> 00:35:31.440 out, I would have figured it out by having to go through the paperwork, 390 00:35:34.119 --> 00:35:36.400 you know, because I would have seen that they had a different last 391 00:35:36.480 --> 00:35:42.199 name and a different father listed than mine. So anyways, I think the 392 00:35:42.239 --> 00:35:45.280 stories questions I have. I have one more thing to say. Another time 393 00:35:45.320 --> 00:35:51.039 that it comes out is with family jewelry. And this is usually like to 394 00:35:51.360 --> 00:35:55.639 watch the grandfather or father owned or something. I mean, adoptees sometimes find 395 00:35:55.639 --> 00:36:00.719 out when they're going through the family jewelry with other pimper is in the family, 396 00:36:00.760 --> 00:36:02.239 and you know what, the other family man say, Well, you're 397 00:36:02.280 --> 00:36:07.880 adopted, this should go to your cousin, even though you might be the 398 00:36:08.320 --> 00:36:13.920 like the direct descendant who should get it. But you're not blood. And 399 00:36:14.039 --> 00:36:19.840 suddenly that diamond ring that was your grandmother's, let's say, needs to go 400 00:36:20.039 --> 00:36:22.920 to somebody else in the family because quote, you're not blood. And I 401 00:36:22.960 --> 00:36:29.199 have heard stories of people finding out that way. Oh that's horrible, that 402 00:36:29.360 --> 00:36:35.320 is terrible. But I have to admit, Kevin, I also was mistaken. 403 00:36:35.760 --> 00:36:42.639 I actually have seven cousins that were adopted, and one was like your 404 00:36:42.639 --> 00:36:49.639 brothers, right, My uncle adopted his wife's son from her previous marriage. 405 00:36:51.199 --> 00:36:57.440 And but they I don't they told him pretty young, because they did, 406 00:36:58.440 --> 00:37:01.360 you know, they well, they tried to let him have a relationship with 407 00:37:01.400 --> 00:37:06.039 his father, and I don't know all the details, but it wasn't a 408 00:37:06.079 --> 00:37:12.920 good situation. So then he, my uncle just flat out adopted him, 409 00:37:12.960 --> 00:37:20.559 and and everybody you know not, Yeah, that's a very that's a such 410 00:37:20.599 --> 00:37:25.039 a different situation from a closed, secret adoption that I mean, closed adoptions 411 00:37:25.079 --> 00:37:30.320 are becoming you know, quite the thing of the past. I mean it's 412 00:37:31.239 --> 00:37:38.280 but open adoptions are often not as open as the mothers were promised. I 413 00:37:38.280 --> 00:37:46.119 mean I and so open adoption rules and regulations are very hard to to make 414 00:37:46.159 --> 00:37:51.679 sure that they're followed. I mean you sometimes the mother, the birth mother 415 00:37:51.719 --> 00:37:52.880 will have to go to court. Does you have the money to hire a 416 00:37:52.920 --> 00:37:59.639 lawyer? I mean, and even then the parents adopt and move across the 417 00:37:59.639 --> 00:38:04.039 country. I mean. I don't want to make all adoptive parents sound bad. 418 00:38:04.159 --> 00:38:07.440 I know some very loving, wonderful adoptive parents. I mean, I 419 00:38:07.559 --> 00:38:14.000 have friends who are adoptive parents. It's just that there are stories that make 420 00:38:14.119 --> 00:38:21.239 your hair curl, and I have very straight hair. So so you know, 421 00:38:21.320 --> 00:38:27.760 the open adoption it sounds like the panacea for the future, but it's 422 00:38:27.840 --> 00:38:30.199 not so wonderful. And it's still not that wonderful because the child. The 423 00:38:30.639 --> 00:38:37.880 problem with being adopted often is that, no matter how much the parents don't 424 00:38:37.960 --> 00:38:42.920 want to, it takes a big heart to accept that the child that you 425 00:38:42.960 --> 00:38:49.199 are raising in many ways is not going to be like you, and that 426 00:38:49.400 --> 00:38:53.360 is often it's difficult to handle. I mean, it's one of the reasons 427 00:38:53.440 --> 00:39:00.760 adoptees are overrepresented in therapy and everything because one of the reasons is because what 428 00:39:00.960 --> 00:39:07.119 might be accepted as just erratic behavior or you know, dad got into trouble 429 00:39:07.159 --> 00:39:09.840 when he was sixteen also, but it becomes if, if, if that 430 00:39:09.960 --> 00:39:16.400 person has adopted into a completely different kind of family, things that small things 431 00:39:17.159 --> 00:39:22.000 much bigger than they would be in the family where different kinds of behaviors is 432 00:39:22.039 --> 00:39:30.480 accepted and tolerated and just part of the way that family is well. And 433 00:39:30.679 --> 00:39:37.440 you know, besides the cultural I mean the cultural differences, and we are 434 00:39:37.519 --> 00:39:40.159 learning more and more every day. I mean, you see these stories of 435 00:39:40.239 --> 00:39:45.800 like twins that were split up at birth and didn't even know they had a 436 00:39:45.840 --> 00:39:50.440 twin, and they meet twenty years later and they had they have the same 437 00:39:50.440 --> 00:39:52.199 favorite color, and they have the same favorite food, and they have to 438 00:39:52.239 --> 00:39:55.039 say, like, you know, you would have thought they'd been raised as 439 00:39:55.039 --> 00:39:59.719 twins and they didn't even know they were a twin. Yes, I mean 440 00:39:59.760 --> 00:40:04.960 there was that movie. Yeah, there is a lot of study about that. 441 00:40:04.960 --> 00:40:08.159 It was done at the University of Minnesota. They found twins and triplets 442 00:40:08.159 --> 00:40:12.639 who had been separated and it just and it's just what you said. They 443 00:40:12.840 --> 00:40:16.320 they they have so many similarities. They crossed their legs the same way. 444 00:40:16.360 --> 00:40:22.039 They have the same kinds of favorite colors, and they were the same kinds 445 00:40:22.039 --> 00:40:24.039 of suits. And it goes on and on and on. I mean when 446 00:40:24.079 --> 00:40:29.000 I found my daughter, and I did find her when she was before she 447 00:40:29.079 --> 00:40:34.360 was sixteen, and her adoptive parents welcomed me into their home and their hearts. 448 00:40:34.639 --> 00:40:38.519 Uh, it wasn't always simple, and it wasn't always pretty as time 449 00:40:38.559 --> 00:40:43.880 went on, but that's what they did at that time. And you would 450 00:40:44.000 --> 00:40:49.320 never never have guessed if you met me and my daughter that we had I 451 00:40:49.400 --> 00:40:52.239 had not raised her. She dressed like me, she sounded like me, 452 00:40:52.360 --> 00:40:55.679 She kind of looked like me, even though I don't. I think she 453 00:40:55.719 --> 00:41:00.760 looked more like her father, but the same size. I mean, we 454 00:41:00.800 --> 00:41:07.360 could wear each other's clothes, we did sometimes. So there's always that all 455 00:41:07.719 --> 00:41:13.400 that all ends up being threatening to the adopted parents, you know, if 456 00:41:13.440 --> 00:41:21.599 they're not very grounded and you know, in this is my child, and 457 00:41:22.079 --> 00:41:25.280 if you have a parent that's having any kind of struggle with I love this 458 00:41:25.440 --> 00:41:29.280 child, but it's not quite mine. It's mine, but it's not quite 459 00:41:29.280 --> 00:41:37.000 mine. Then then the birth parent shows up and is you know, say 460 00:41:37.039 --> 00:41:40.199 manners and stuff like that. It brings all of that insecurity up again. 461 00:41:40.239 --> 00:41:45.679 I've I've dealt with several clients on both sides of the spectrum and dealing with 462 00:41:45.719 --> 00:41:51.000 these issues of finding kids and relationships and all of this stuff. So yeah, 463 00:41:51.000 --> 00:41:57.559 well, but I have a hand for sake. Well before we run 464 00:41:57.559 --> 00:42:00.480 out of time, I mean, we still have some time. But your 465 00:42:00.480 --> 00:42:05.719 most recent book is Hole in My Heart, and I want to make sure 466 00:42:05.760 --> 00:42:07.599 you get a chance. We make sure we put a little time aside to 467 00:42:08.039 --> 00:42:10.840 hear a little bit about the most recent book of yours. I don't know 468 00:42:10.880 --> 00:42:14.920 if it has to do with adoption or not, but I don't want to 469 00:42:14.920 --> 00:42:17.519 show to end then you go. I've never even mentioned my new book that's 470 00:42:17.519 --> 00:42:22.079 out at all. Well, Hole in my Heart is definitely the whole my 471 00:42:22.320 --> 00:42:27.880 heart, this whole adoption situation left and the subtitles love and Loss in the 472 00:42:27.920 --> 00:42:31.400 fault Lines of adoption, and it is not only it's a memoir that is 473 00:42:31.440 --> 00:42:37.800 not only my story. I was a you know, young reporter, and 474 00:42:37.880 --> 00:42:43.199 I landed the dream job at twenty two. I was the only woman's city 475 00:42:43.239 --> 00:42:46.960 side on the Rochester, New York morning newspaper, The Democrat, and chronicle 476 00:42:47.079 --> 00:42:52.519 with about twenty guys. I wasn't in the women's department, and that's where 477 00:42:52.559 --> 00:42:57.519 I met the father of my child. And so while I have this dream 478 00:42:57.599 --> 00:43:01.119 job that would have come not come along easily in nineteen sixty four, I 479 00:43:01.159 --> 00:43:06.400 got pregnant in nineteen sixty five and gave her up in nineteen sixty six and 480 00:43:07.039 --> 00:43:10.000 was in hiding for a while and slowly came out. And so the book 481 00:43:10.079 --> 00:43:16.480 is the story of who I was and the changes in journalism in the world, 482 00:43:16.880 --> 00:43:21.559 and why I gave her up for adoption, and how I changed, 483 00:43:21.719 --> 00:43:27.079 how I came out of the closet in my way, how I found her. 484 00:43:27.719 --> 00:43:31.360 We had a relationship for twenty six years. And but because I have 485 00:43:31.480 --> 00:43:39.360 this journalism background, it is also full of facts, research data. It 486 00:43:39.440 --> 00:43:45.360 has a rather large bibliography. It has about one hundred and fifty footnotes. 487 00:43:46.039 --> 00:43:52.559 It has an index, so you can there's it's my story, but it's 488 00:43:52.599 --> 00:43:59.519 my story told against the background of changes in the in the world in the 489 00:44:00.119 --> 00:44:04.079 this period that it covers from from the sort of starts in the fifties, 490 00:44:04.079 --> 00:44:07.000 basically when I argued with my dad about whether or not I could go to 491 00:44:07.039 --> 00:44:13.159 college and ends up basically today. And the last, the penultimate chapter is 492 00:44:13.199 --> 00:44:15.920 the chapter that talked about when the law finally changed in New York, because 493 00:44:15.920 --> 00:44:20.760 we had a very very long fight in New York and nobody gave up, 494 00:44:20.760 --> 00:44:23.440 and we just kept going back and back, and then finally the head of 495 00:44:23.480 --> 00:44:30.280 the Assembly in New York, the government changed and that people in charge changed 496 00:44:30.360 --> 00:44:35.880 in the law passed, and it passed kind of overwhelmingly. But other states 497 00:44:36.920 --> 00:44:39.199 had, you know, had passed as Oregon, you know, had had 498 00:44:39.239 --> 00:44:45.880 plebiscite and people voted to change the law, you know, fifteen years before 499 00:44:45.880 --> 00:44:49.880 this happened in New York. So it's this it's a it's a story of 500 00:44:51.199 --> 00:44:55.639 kind of a lot of people, not just me, because I'm just one 501 00:44:55.719 --> 00:45:01.320 person who just happened too, out of thousands of people who are involved, 502 00:45:01.840 --> 00:45:07.480 millions of people. It's estimated they're between five to seven million adoptees in the 503 00:45:07.559 --> 00:45:13.119 United States. So everybody, everybody who's adopted, has brothers, has family, 504 00:45:13.400 --> 00:45:17.119 has a birth mother, has a birth father, has adoptive parents. 505 00:45:17.119 --> 00:45:22.840 So it really is, you know, a book that I hope will continue 506 00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:27.880 to work to change the law and to and to bring comfort to the adoptees 507 00:45:27.920 --> 00:45:30.800 who are afraid to search and to help birth mothers come out of the closet. 508 00:45:32.400 --> 00:45:37.760 There you go, that's my pitch. I have no idea what the 509 00:45:37.840 --> 00:45:43.079 law is in New Hampshire because I've never needed to know. So that's that's 510 00:45:43.199 --> 00:45:51.639 that's interesting. I know that it's open. It's open, Okay, yeah, 511 00:45:51.719 --> 00:45:53.519 good, good, good on awesome, awesome, Yeah, yeah, 512 00:45:53.599 --> 00:46:04.639 yeah, because I'm gonna say I know that I act was born was adopted 513 00:46:04.719 --> 00:46:12.679 in New York, and I believe was born in New York and was he 514 00:46:12.920 --> 00:46:20.360 was born in nineteen sixty two. So when we were dealing with his frustrations 515 00:46:20.400 --> 00:46:23.280 and he thought he might want to know who his birth parents were, they 516 00:46:23.280 --> 00:46:28.519 would New York would have still been closed because yeah, where all of us 517 00:46:28.760 --> 00:46:32.199 would have been. Idly enough, if he was born in any of the 518 00:46:32.280 --> 00:46:36.920 boroughs of New York City, he would have had a chance, if he 519 00:46:37.000 --> 00:46:40.360 knew about this, to go to the New York Public Library with his amended 520 00:46:40.400 --> 00:46:49.719 birth certificate and sat and looked through all the births on in that year. 521 00:46:49.800 --> 00:46:53.000 I guess it is, and matched the numbers. I mean, I know 522 00:46:53.079 --> 00:46:58.480 people who did this, and when you matched the numbers, you could find 523 00:46:58.679 --> 00:47:02.400 you could see what was on the natural the original birth certificate, but that 524 00:47:02.599 --> 00:47:07.239 was only for New York City. But anyway, uh, your X if 525 00:47:07.559 --> 00:47:12.599 he knows about this, he can just now write for his birth certificate in 526 00:47:12.719 --> 00:47:17.519 New York. Yeah. Yeah, we don't we contact every dog's age. 527 00:47:17.599 --> 00:47:22.440 I mean we're we're fine with each other, but we don't have any regular 528 00:47:22.480 --> 00:47:27.760 communication. I know that his was in Long Island, so oh, well 529 00:47:27.760 --> 00:47:32.079 I lived on Long Island. That's where I live where, that's where he 530 00:47:32.159 --> 00:47:37.880 was born, and that's where his parents adopted him. And yeah, so 531 00:47:38.039 --> 00:47:42.679 I just just just just decide. Note because when when you talked about New 532 00:47:42.719 --> 00:47:46.440 York and going out, I was like, that would have been exactly when 533 00:47:46.440 --> 00:47:51.159 he was doing that and he was studying to become a psychiatrist, said I. 534 00:47:51.519 --> 00:47:54.760 I really think the fact he was adopted was a push, was one 535 00:47:54.800 --> 00:47:59.760 of the pushes why he was studying psychiatry to understand why people did what they 536 00:47:59.800 --> 00:48:01.679 did, which included why did my mother give me up? But did my 537 00:48:01.679 --> 00:48:06.840 birth mother gave me up? I could be wrong, LA, No, 538 00:48:07.440 --> 00:48:08.559 I know a lot. I just let me say this. I know a 539 00:48:08.559 --> 00:48:12.880 lot of people who go into therapy and of one sort of enough who are 540 00:48:12.920 --> 00:48:17.480 adopted, and I think their their own questions that lead them to that that 541 00:48:17.880 --> 00:48:27.280 chapter of their lives. I mean that to pick a career, definitely. 542 00:48:27.920 --> 00:48:31.960 It's funny because I'm listening and I'm thinking about two times in my life where 543 00:48:32.039 --> 00:48:37.880 adoption was brought up. One I vividly remember, and one of course I 544 00:48:37.880 --> 00:48:43.239 have no recollection of. When I had my daughter, my doctor pushed me 545 00:48:43.639 --> 00:48:49.280 very hard to give her up for adoption. Oh No, I was married 546 00:48:50.280 --> 00:48:53.679 and I did not. Luckily, my mother was also completely against it. 547 00:48:54.360 --> 00:49:00.639 And I'm so grateful that I got to watch my daughter grow up and become 548 00:49:00.679 --> 00:49:06.519 the amazing, incredible woman she is. I am one of six children that 549 00:49:06.559 --> 00:49:12.079 my mother had, and when I was born, someone from my grandparents' church 550 00:49:14.079 --> 00:49:20.760 try to buy me from my parents m H. And my mom is still 551 00:49:21.159 --> 00:49:24.760 still a little traumatized ties about that to this day. When she stalked about 552 00:49:24.800 --> 00:49:30.320 it, they told her she had enough kids and they wanted one and could 553 00:49:30.320 --> 00:49:34.840 they have me. And when I was pregnant with my daughter, a woman 554 00:49:34.880 --> 00:49:37.679 came up to me in the mall and asked me if she could adopt my 555 00:49:37.800 --> 00:49:44.920 baby. Oh, did did she know you? No, just a random 556 00:49:44.960 --> 00:49:53.119 stranger walked up to me. She must have milion you No, I was 557 00:49:53.159 --> 00:50:01.760 sixteen, Ah yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, you know I 558 00:50:02.119 --> 00:50:06.440 still sort of walk up to someone and ask for their baby. I mean, 559 00:50:06.440 --> 00:50:09.039 that's just weird. So, I mean, adoption is a tricky subject. 560 00:50:09.039 --> 00:50:15.800 It's not black and white from any angle, because sometimes the parents don't 561 00:50:15.840 --> 00:50:20.440 have a choice, you know, sometimes it's in the best interests of the 562 00:50:20.519 --> 00:50:24.480 child. You know, some you know, and there's some back into it. 563 00:50:24.599 --> 00:50:31.639 But I love that when a adopted to child wants to find their birth 564 00:50:31.760 --> 00:50:37.880 parents they can now or when a parent that was had to give up their 565 00:50:37.960 --> 00:50:42.559 child for whatever reason can now find them and find out if they're okay, 566 00:50:42.920 --> 00:50:47.519 because well, yes, and yes, I'm just you're saying this is a 567 00:50:47.559 --> 00:50:53.480 flat statement. Yes and no, I I handled an email today or somebody 568 00:50:53.519 --> 00:50:59.760 through Facebook who's looking for her child in New York and not having any luck. 569 00:51:00.079 --> 00:51:05.039 I mean, DNA, if DNA for the birth mother or natural mother 570 00:51:05.159 --> 00:51:13.280 or first mother, if DNA doesn't lead to a child who has also put 571 00:51:13.320 --> 00:51:17.760 their DNA in one. You know, there's several systems. There's ancestry dot 572 00:51:17.800 --> 00:51:22.679 com, there's twenty three and met and so people who are searching. I 573 00:51:22.880 --> 00:51:27.719 recommend that they actually do the DNA with every possible one, because your daughter 574 00:51:27.880 --> 00:51:30.599 or son might have done it with another one and not the one, not 575 00:51:30.760 --> 00:51:34.159 this one, and so I do know it. But it's still more difficult 576 00:51:34.239 --> 00:51:38.480 for mothers to find. But they do find and fathers too. But it 577 00:51:38.599 --> 00:51:45.239 is an a blacant statement, and mothers are not do not have access to 578 00:51:45.840 --> 00:51:52.199 the adoptive parents record. I mean the first mothers don't have any rights to 579 00:51:52.239 --> 00:51:57.519 go in and ask for the names of the adoptees, of the adopts, 580 00:51:58.119 --> 00:52:00.119 the adoptive parents. I just want, I just want to say one thing 581 00:52:00.360 --> 00:52:05.159 because I don't want an adoptive parents to think though you know, this is 582 00:52:05.199 --> 00:52:07.800 like against him. I want I also want to say that in New Hampshire, 583 00:52:07.840 --> 00:52:12.440 the state you mentioned before, it was an adoptive father who was a 584 00:52:12.519 --> 00:52:17.239 very big deal in the legislature who pushed through about ten twelve years ago the 585 00:52:17.280 --> 00:52:21.360 open records law in New Hampshire. It's a very good law, but it 586 00:52:21.400 --> 00:52:24.679 was an adoptive father who was the person who was the push behind it in 587 00:52:24.760 --> 00:52:34.039 that state. Okay, well, good for him, good him loose. 588 00:52:34.519 --> 00:52:39.000 Yeah, the open records doesn't work. Both ways I didn't understand that. 589 00:52:39.360 --> 00:52:45.000 So, yeah, the person who gave optic child for adoption doesn't have the 590 00:52:45.079 --> 00:52:51.039 access to the records of to say where the child went exactly. They do 591 00:52:51.119 --> 00:52:58.440 not not in any state. Now sometimes think that's something that needs to be 592 00:52:58.519 --> 00:53:04.599 changed. Well, I think it will never change, So that would be 593 00:53:04.639 --> 00:53:07.960 a pipe dream. I mean, yes, I mean there should never have 594 00:53:07.039 --> 00:53:12.400 been closed adoption, and so it should be open for those who wanted to 595 00:53:12.440 --> 00:53:19.320 find so they because the adoptive adoptees often are afraid to search because my mother 596 00:53:19.400 --> 00:53:22.159 didn't want me once. I mean, they don't know the situation, but 597 00:53:22.239 --> 00:53:27.880 that what they feel is abandonment and rejection, and so they might want to 598 00:53:27.920 --> 00:53:31.639 search that they're afraid to search, and so they just put it out of 599 00:53:31.679 --> 00:53:37.320 their minds. But I think that would never look. It's hard enough to 600 00:53:37.360 --> 00:53:42.400 open the records up for adoptees. I would get nowhere if I was trying 601 00:53:42.400 --> 00:53:46.039 to open up the records for birth parents. DNA is their only hope. 602 00:53:46.119 --> 00:53:52.159 Or there is an international search Registry called i SSR, and anybody who's listening 603 00:53:52.239 --> 00:53:57.840 should go register there because you might find a search angel, or you might 604 00:53:57.920 --> 00:54:01.400 find that's the way to begin, there is there is hope for I. 605 00:54:01.519 --> 00:54:06.840 Look, I paid somebody twelve hundred dollars in nineteen eighty one, the year 606 00:54:06.880 --> 00:54:08.760 I married my second husband, and I felt like I could do this even 607 00:54:08.800 --> 00:54:14.760 though she wasn't eighteen yet. It was killing me and I knew I wasn't 608 00:54:14.760 --> 00:54:16.639 going to go in there and grab her or anything. But maybe she needed 609 00:54:16.639 --> 00:54:22.239 me. Maybe she was shunted from boarding school to summer camp because the parents 610 00:54:22.519 --> 00:54:27.159 had enough money and they had divorced and the new mother didn't want her. 611 00:54:27.159 --> 00:54:30.400 I mean, there's a lot of scenarios that you don't know about. But 612 00:54:30.360 --> 00:54:34.639 trying to open up the records for birth parents, I think is it would 613 00:54:34.679 --> 00:54:39.159 be a losing issue. But that is why there is there. That is 614 00:54:39.159 --> 00:54:45.320 why open adoption is the way that the country has gone, and it's in 615 00:54:45.400 --> 00:54:51.960 some agencies don't even want to handle any closed adoption, but it's often parents 616 00:54:52.159 --> 00:54:57.000 sometimes have difficulty dealing with it, and but I'm using the word parents there. 617 00:54:57.320 --> 00:55:00.800 Sometimes the natural parents, the actual mother can't deal with it after a 618 00:55:00.800 --> 00:55:05.920 while it's too painful. And sometimes the adoptive parents don't want the natural mother 619 00:55:06.960 --> 00:55:09.559 coming onto the scene in any way, and they don't send pictures like they're 620 00:55:09.559 --> 00:55:13.039 supposed to, or they move away, or they change their name, or 621 00:55:13.039 --> 00:55:16.840 they get on and on and on. So there's a both sides have trouble. 622 00:55:16.920 --> 00:55:22.239 Adoption continues to be complicated and painful and many, many sided. It's 623 00:55:22.280 --> 00:55:28.239 not always terrible, it's not, but it is not the same as as 624 00:55:28.320 --> 00:55:37.199 having an uncomplicated life growing up. Boy, I'd like to find a person 625 00:55:37.280 --> 00:55:40.320 that had that, because I haven't met one in sixty plus years of being 626 00:55:40.360 --> 00:55:44.679 alive. I haven't met a person that had an uncomplicated life growing up. 627 00:55:45.119 --> 00:55:49.960 You send them my way. I'd like to meet him. Alright, okay, 628 00:55:51.599 --> 00:55:55.679 hole in my art. Thank you woman dot Com. Thank you for 629 00:55:55.800 --> 00:56:01.519 being on our show. It was lovely. Thank you, Nick Free. 630 00:56:01.519 --> 00:56:06.880 Think we'll be up at the top of the month again with Mat Cornerton and 631 00:56:07.800 --> 00:56:12.239 find out what's going on politically in the world, which, as we always 632 00:56:12.280 --> 00:56:15.239 know, is uninteresting and very little, but somehow we feel an hour bast 633 00:56:15.280 --> 00:56:22.159 time. Laurie has always a pleasure to have you. I love you. 634 00:56:22.079 --> 00:56:24.000 I love you too. Planny