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And in the book, chapter twelve
talks about how this came to be.

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It's a very unusual and ironic rule. And the irony of it is that

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in nineteen seventy six, newspaper guys
ginning up a story got Congress involved to

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eliminate student loan debt. Only student
loan debt, credit card car debt,

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mortgages. The only one that's in
this category is student loan debt. And

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then it snowballed over the years,
and now in two thousand and three,

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it's just impossible. In fact,
one source told me that one out of

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twenty five hundred applicants for relief of
student loan debt gets it. Granted,

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you're listening to Carrie Let's Financial Survival
Network, where you get valuable information you

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00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:43,759
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gift Financial Survival Network now more than ever.

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And welcome. You are listening to
watching the Financial Survival Network. I'm

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your host, Kerry Luttz. You
know we talk a lot about finances,

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personal finances, We've talked many,
many times in the past about student loan

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debt. Many of you out there, even if you don't have children,

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you have relatives, You've got friends
whose kids are basically virtual debt slaves from

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here to eternity. Well, we've
got somebody on here who can help you

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with that situation. His name is
Dave Shutler, Dave student loan Expert that

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you are, you recommend that people
avoid them your book Graduate Debt Free Escaping

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the student loan Matrix, I would
call it the student loan shackles really hits

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hit home to a lot of people. So first student loans, it seems

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like you get a sub to dies
loan, you can go to a better

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school than you might otherwise have gone
to, you can afford to pay your

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living expenses, and then when you
get out and hopefully you get a good

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job, you'll be able to pay
for all this. What's wrong with that,

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Well, what's wrong with the picture
is that there has not been,

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for the longest time, a way
to calculate that for your listeners who are

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interested in the basically the financial analysis
of this whole deal. Up until recently

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twenty nineteen, the answer to the
critical question in student loan debt could not

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be found. Lawyers call it an
imponderable and you can't figure it out.

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But in twenty nineteen, Department of
Education released a ton of public data and

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you can now ask a simple question, what does an English major at Duke

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University make upon graduation? Now that
sounds very benign, but there's so many

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things that flow from that, because
when you have that piece of information,

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you can go backwards to the true
calculation that you need to figure out.

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So an English major at dwocuereies that's
what I was. I can bust on

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myself. You know, whatever they
make that. We have a rule of

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thumb that says that is your cap. And once you have your cap figured

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out as far as what you're the
amount of death that you can take on,

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then you can go backwards for it. There's a there's a lot of

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there's a lot of working through on
that. But I point that out because

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it leads to the second key point
for students in college, and that is

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pick your major first, then pick
your school. Two reasons, you pick

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the major because that's what you want
to do when you grow up. And

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secondly, then you can find a
school you don't want to grow up here.

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Yeah, I'm never growing up here. Yes you are. You have

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to. I'm trying to avoid it. So those are those are the background

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things, particularly for your your listeners
who are trying to think through this financial

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deal. A book, of course, goes into a lot more detail about

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it, but that's the framework.
M okay. So think you're at your

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major and look, I heard stories
people learning puppetry right going for their masters

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in puppetry. Is there a way
to figure out how much you can make

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as a puppeteer or other than working
for the government. There is, I've

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got I've got a page in the
book that to me is just exquisite.

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You pull up that page, a
page that shows um from it's from indeed

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dot com, but it shows um
average salaries for this whole range of technical

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to non technical. And why I
find it exquisite is that you can go,

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Okay, well, I don't want
to be a puppeteer, but I

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do want to be a graphic artist. Okay, what's a graphic artist make

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from the school that I want to
go to overload? Maybe? And then

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you go backwards and you go,
wait a second, a graphic art artist

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makes around forty thousand dollars. Well, if that's the case, then I

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got to be very careful to in
the book, I got to be very

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careful to not exceed that. And
so this is where a lot of students

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have gotten into trouble where they've gone
to expensive private schools and they studied up

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Tree or another course that floated their
boat but didn't really produce the information that

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they wanted. So this is the
page in the book, and it is

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backed by Department of Education, indeed
dot com, and it just takes you

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know, a mechanical engineer up the
top and down at the bottom is a

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studio arts forty one thou for Studio
Arts Engineering sixty nine thousand. So if

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you know this before you go into
the enterprise, then you can say,

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okay, well I got to get
that degree in a place that doesn't leave

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me with a ton of debt.
And so again more in the book breaks

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it out. But for your listeners
to know that that's the question they want

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to be asking, what's the major
they want? And then not the school.

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I want to go to an Ivy
League school because I love the look

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of the school. I wanted to
go to Harvard, they didn't have me,

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they wouldn't tab me. If you
can believe that Schander shocked and saddened

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here ye. Anyway, so that
gives you a framework for It's what the

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book is about, is turning this
thing upside down. So if the students

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and the parents have a very good
idea what they're gonna tour forget okay,

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and yeah, so you know when
I always like in this the elderly senior

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citizens, if you want to take
out a reverse mortgage on your home,

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you're forced to take a I don't
remember how many hours, five or ten

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hour course online about all the ins
and outs and the hidden costs of taking

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out a reverse mortgage. But you
know, for a student, an eighteen

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year old kids, seventeen year old, should they don't understand any of this

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and there there's nothing out there for
them up until now till your book and

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with the research tools to actually figure
out if this is a good investment or

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not, shouldn't they be forced to
take at least a couple of week course

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on the intricacies of student debt and
the non dischargeability of the debt and all

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of this. Well, it's interesting
you ask that because we offer such a

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course. I've never seen one.
I don't see anything. I'm to retired

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military twenty five years, so I
have a federal background, private background.

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I'm a lawyer by training. Is
this owner now? I've never seen anything

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any any of these. There is
some stuff. There is some good information

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from Indeed and a couple other sources. But this thing that you're talking about,

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we we identified a need that we
think is pretty significant because there's nothing

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that tells these guys, young els, what's going to happen to them.

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And so that's the notion of what
we're doing at But go back to your

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comment about that you had to take
a five hour course. What does five

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hour course tell you when you're about
to sign a way? You know you're

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upside down basically, you're about to
sign a way. And so my thought

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on as you're navigating this is that
if you have sort of the parameters of

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it, what's going on, which
is what the book intends to do,

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then when you go into the meeting
with the loan officer or the lender and

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they say, okay, you're qualified
for a fifty thousand dollars loan, and

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you go, well, how in
the world, would I pay the ex

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trifty thousand dollars very slowly? Right, we don't care. You just got

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to do it. And back to
your point, indentured servitude. There's about

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one hundred and fourteen thousand people who
are in indentured servitude. Is they're paying

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back an offset from the Social Security
or from some other loan that they got

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years ago. So you want to
be very very alert to that danger.

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I'll just get to pass by a
little anecdote, little story. Friend of

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mine, Okay, he owed like
sixteen hundred dollars, they lost track of

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him, He lost track of them, and you know, he was not

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adverse to paying it back. Next
thing he knows he filed for a New

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York state tax return and they grabbed
it and it was for far more than

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the sixteen hundred dollars that he originally
owed. I mean, you become a

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target, and this thing's for life. You know, most debts, we

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have what's called the statute limitations.
You default in the credit card, they

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they got five years to sue you
and get a judgment. They get a

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judgment, they have ten years or
twenty years. But unfortunately, death taxes

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and student loans or forever. That's
a fact. And in the book,

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chapter twelve talks about how this came
to be. It's a very unusual and

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ironic rule. And the irony of
it is that in nineteen seventy six,

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newspaper guys ginning up a story got
Congress involved to eliminate student loan debt.

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Only student loan debt, credit card, car debt, mortgages. The only

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one that's in this category is student
loan debt. And then it snowballed over

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the years, and now in two
thousand and three, it's just impossible.

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In fact, one, one source
told me that one out of twenty five

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hundred applicants for relief of student loan
debt gets it granted. This is near

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impossible. And back to your friends, that's the issue is that these things

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are operating different different kinds of different
kinds of realms that you didn't even know

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about. And sixteen hundred bucks,
he could have paid that off and be

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done and then whatever whatever it mushroom
to. That's that's where he is now.

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And it's a state deal, maybe
not even a federal deal, it's

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a state deal. Cells another story, I knew a lady who was a

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doctor. She was in her residency, and she wasn't a real good money

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manager, and she had like quarter
a million, three hundred and fifty thousand

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dollars worth of debt. She defaulted
and then it gets kicked into default interest,

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paying like twelve percent a year default
interest. And you know, she's

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gonna do well, but she isn't
going to do that well. And what

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do you say to somebody like that. They just they were careless indiscretions of

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youth. And you know, look, you buy a house, even if

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you're in your early twenties, right
right, you get disclosure after disclosure,

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after disclosure, you're actually getting a
hard asset. Some value will fluctuate.

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Sometimes it's going to go up,
usually goes up, but there are periods

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of time where it goes down,
like during the mortgage crisis. But you

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got an asset. Human capital probably
is the most valuable capital on the face

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of the planet, but it's intangible. And yeah, I went to law

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school going to date myself. You
know, when I went to law school

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back in the eighties, I paid
a grand total of fifteen thousand dollars tuition,

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and literally I made back that fifteen
thousand dollars in the first six months

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of practicing law. But now it
is you pay two fifty to be a

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lawyer, it's going to take you
five to ten years to make money back.

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Is there a formula that you use
to figure out potential income versus debt?

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How much debt should you take on
based on income? That's bad question

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I've been puzzling with for a long
time because focus in my book is sixteen

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and seventeen and eighteen year olds and
their parents. So I'm trying to get

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them before the barn door, get
the whatever, the horse before the barn

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door. Forget the barn, the
horse in there before the barn door.

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Yeah, And the true puzzlement to
me is the one you've just raised.

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And and John Rodino on your on
your June eighth UM podcast raised a very

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incisive question. He said, when
the federal government takes away the UM,

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you know that they're not they're not
charging anymore, and then and that goes

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away, and all these students,
forty three million people you know, with

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this debt now suddenly have to make
monthly payments where they hadn't accounted for it

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for three years. He said that
it might precipitate a um a jubilee.

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Yeah, that's juvil. Oh,
it's definitely going to I mean because sixty

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seven percent who never graduate and they've
taken on the debt, they never even

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got the benefit of that degree that
they were promised for whatever reasons, And

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we don't need to go into that, right, recession, recession, that's

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what That's what John said, he
could precipitate a recession because there's so many

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of these people and it's not an
insignificant debt. But that's the that's the

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issue that you've just raised and I
don't really have an answer for. In

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the book, I give a couple
of anecdotal things where people, you know,

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um just focused on the debt for
a year or two years and lived

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in you know, lived in a
trailer and did everything they could to get

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the debt. But the harder issue
is all these people with all this debt

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and the limited capacity for them to
earn additional funds to pay it off.

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Right. So obviously, if you're
going for a STEM degree, you're going

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to get a higher income at least
in theory, right, So it might

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00:14:56,440 --> 00:15:01,840
work, it might make sense there. And if you're gonna potentially get a

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income of two hundred thousand a year. So maybe one year is worth of

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income going into debt. But if
you're looking at less than that in some

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other field. You know. The
other thing is that a lot of you

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out there get degrees, but you
never even get a job in that area.

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But just going to college has benefited
you, remembered, Dave, when

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we went to college. They said
that the average college graduate, over the

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course of their earnings in a lifetime, makes a million dollars more than a

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non college rest. Now, I
don't know if that's true or if that's

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00:15:43,919 --> 00:15:48,799
that's very deal. Yeah, that's
that is artically true. Let's break it

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down as real quick. That's the
Hamilton's study. It's in the book,

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and what it says is that at
the median, that's the magic word.

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At the median, that the list
that I showed you right at the middle,

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at the median, college graduates make
more than non graduates, and you're

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right, it's about a million,
little over a million. However, the

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study itself says that some college graduates
will make less than some non college graduates

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in the trades because the trades making
seventy five thousand and this college graduates making

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forty five thousand. So that premise
that you're going to make more money by

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going to college is generally good once
you realize that the thing they're talking about

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is the median and you are not
the median. You're either at mechanical engineering

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or you're at whatever whatever of course
that you go to. Does that address

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your question? Yeah, so,
and when you consider that, then you

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should also think about, hey,
you might better off in trade school learning

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to be a welder. We're all
make close to one hundred thousand first year,

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and that's before overtime. And the
welders aren't going away. Or a

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plumber or an electrician or a carpenter. All these skilled trades what we call

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well we call them different things,
but just call them dirty jobs. With

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dirty jobs. Often, Hey,
you go to a trade school, you

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don't even pay for it normally,
all right, but even if you do,

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it just could make a lot more
sense than becoming the puppeteer. Yeah.

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And there's a couple of statistics that
I think you'll find various of your

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audience will find very answers of late. Let's go back to two thousand and

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nine and two thousand and nine seventy
percent of students graduated from college this past

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year. Sixty two percent sorry,
went on to college from high school.

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So high school students are walking and
voting with their feet. They are going

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to trade schools. That is a
good to me, and that is a

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good trend is that sixty two percent
of graduates go on to college, but

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thirty eight percent are going into trades, going into community college type degrees.

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And the shift that's going on there
is relating to the number of colleges that

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are available because people aren't selecting him. And the most recent statistic is five

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hundred seventy nine colleges. That's three
years. That's remarkable. Well, the

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colleges are going the way of malls, you know, ghost colleges, and

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look, you and I we go
back to the Vietnam era. I'm a

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little younger than that, but everybody. The trend to go to college took

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off from there because you got a
free deferment from the military. That was

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a way to legally dodge the draft. And if you went to grad school,

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at school, whatever law school,
you could keep deferring. This created

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a whole thing where college was the
be all in the end all and look,

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I went to college law school like
you, and certainly it's been a

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benefit to me personally, no question. But a I paid for college out

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of current income because it was so
cheap back then, speaking hundred bucks of

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credit at Pace University one hundred twenty
eight credits and then your miscellaneous fees.

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It still came in under twenty thousand. Not that Pace was that great,

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but even Ivy League would cost you
fifty thousand back then. Now it's fifty

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thousand a semester, and even PACE
you wind up owing six figures when you

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get done. Go back to the
concept of community college. So my son

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was pretty good student, and you
know, luckily didn't have to take on

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student loan debt. But some of
the things he did was taking ap courses

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in high school, which automatically give
college credit. Then he took in the

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summer a couple of courses at the
local community college and they counted both for

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high school credit and or college.
So he got, yeah, hey,

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you know this. I learned this
from him, basically, and as a

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result, he went to ut Austin. He graduated a semester earlier, so

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that was back then, you know, whatever, it was a substantial savings.

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He workforce six months earlier, so
we had six more months worth of

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income. And community colleges, a
lot of them don't even charge anything.

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They're free or their low costs.
So even if you're going to go to

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regular college afterwards, anybody who's having
financial issues probably should go to a community

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college. Overload the credits. Because
you go to the state school like New

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York, they have to take all
of the community college credits, Unlike when

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you go to a private university they
can say, well that one, really

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we can't give you credit for that, right and right so really makes a

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lot of sense, doesn't it.
It does, And I'll piggyback on a

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couple of things that your listeners will
be I think intrigued by. The basic

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00:21:29,599 --> 00:21:34,279
math is two hundred and fifty bucks
tuition and fees for an hour semester hour

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00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:41,599
of community college twenty five hundred for
semester hour of private university. So it's

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ten times different. And the other
feature of it is at many community colleges,

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this is cool they use the same
textbook as their stay in counter art.

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Like you mentioned dut Austin. So
here in Dallas, we have a

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couple of community colleges, and you
can look, you can say, okay,

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what history book would reason? Okay, that's it. Now you have

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the exact same great shall at one
tenth the cost or thereabouts. And then

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as you're as you're loading up,
like your smart son, did you have

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a launch? And look what he
did? He finished it one semester early.

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My son at NYU did it exact
same thing. He took a whole

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00:22:22,759 --> 00:22:27,240
bunch of AP courses. He went
to NYUM in his last semester. Because

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of those we didn't pay. It
was twenty five Thou's fifty thousand the year

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00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:34,519
at the time, but it's twenty
five thousand, which we then gave him

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to pay off his student debt.
And these are features that you can just

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you know, build into your process. You obviously did with your son.

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But these are not rocket science,
they're they're just common sense things that you

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00:22:48,799 --> 00:22:52,559
can do. So I commend that
for your son. So what about the

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concept these online colleges And obviously every
college now combines online and personal instruction,

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00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:10,200
but online only schools often much much
cheaper. Yeah yeah, so as prestigious

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00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:15,400
as private universities. But you know, you get the education. You still

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00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:19,200
get your degree. Yeah, I'm
gonna I'm gonna take a step back,

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one step back to launch into this. And that is that in the book,

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00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:26,839
I talk about education all a cart, which is you're a fast food

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00:23:26,839 --> 00:23:30,960
place, or you're a family food
restaurant, or you're going to Walmart,

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00:23:32,759 --> 00:23:37,680
Argut or Starbucks. Okay, so
this trifectic, keep that in mind.

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That trifecto, through a program called
Guild, offers to a part time employee,

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00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:51,720
a part time employee twenty hours a
full degree. It's you know,

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00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:56,680
tuition and fees. So if I'm
looking at this and I'm thinking, well,

288
00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:00,039
I'm a limited means and I really
want a degree. And by the

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00:24:00,079 --> 00:24:03,759
way, there's a couple hundred choices
that you've got. So those online degrees

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00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:08,119
require one little thing that are different
from going to regular school. I suppose

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00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:12,319
you'd say they require self discipline.
Yeah, so's the fact that you can

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00:24:12,599 --> 00:24:18,680
do that trifecto. And each of
those those like a Wendy's or content you

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00:24:18,759 --> 00:24:22,319
Very Chicken, I've got him in
the book. They get the website,

294
00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:23,640
the Kindle version. You click on
the website, you go right to it.

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00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:30,559
Typically five thousand, two hundred fifty
bucks. So you're working, you're

296
00:24:30,599 --> 00:24:34,519
getting experience, you're getting ready to
be an assistant manager. You're also going

297
00:24:34,519 --> 00:24:41,119
to school, and you finish up
four years with no debt at all.

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00:24:41,759 --> 00:24:45,680
So the notion that's of what's available
now, I've never seen that stuff.

299
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:52,319
I've been researching this book for eight
years. I never saw this stuff.

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00:24:52,319 --> 00:24:59,519
And I go, well, now
it's phenomenal and and and so it's available

301
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,200
five thousand, two hundred and fifty
bucks. I'll tell you one plicanic note.

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00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:07,039
UM. A guy that I was
talking with in Tucson had a woman

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00:25:07,039 --> 00:25:15,319
who was forty years old, completely
uneducated. She began as a began as

304
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:19,079
a janitor. She found out about
this program. Then he had and um.

305
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:25,960
Within four years, she got her
degree and got promoted to sales manager

306
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:30,119
for one hundred and forty K year
as from a minimum wage. She said,

307
00:25:30,519 --> 00:25:36,119
you can do that, and he
goes, yep. So these things,

308
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:40,279
these things are out there. They're
a vailor. Yeah, they're hacks

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00:25:40,759 --> 00:25:44,200
college education and the hack it's a
hack. Yeah, it's a hack.

310
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:47,960
Hey tell you another one that you
know, like, it's great when you

311
00:25:48,079 --> 00:25:51,960
learn from your kids. When I
do you, So, my son had

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00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:56,519
a talent for languages. He had
learned Spanish in high school. Spanish was

313
00:25:56,559 --> 00:26:02,599
fluent, and you know, he
took communications advertising, that was his bent.

314
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:07,039
But he learned a couple of languages
while he was in college. He

315
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:12,440
learned German and then shortly thereafter Dutch. And yeah, the thing is like

316
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:21,839
American companies want Americans who are multilingual, who can go to these countries in

317
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:26,359
Europe and around the world and understand
the language and the culture far better,

318
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:30,359
because to really understand a culture,
you have to speak the language. My

319
00:26:30,519 --> 00:26:33,920
failings in life speak a little French, but that's it. But you know,

320
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:37,559
he was thinking of going to grad
school and I said, Brandon,

321
00:26:37,799 --> 00:26:41,799
just learned another language, it'll be
worth more than even in Europe it was

322
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:48,599
fifty thousand dollars to go get a
MBA and says, yeah, I'm not

323
00:26:48,599 --> 00:26:53,079
really into management anyway. So now
he's learning a couple of additional languages.

324
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,720
Every couple of years he learns a
new language and his value goes up.

325
00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:00,839
And not to mention, it's impressive
when he an American who can speak five

326
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:06,400
or six different languages. Yeah,
they're rare. So that that's another hack

327
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:11,680
that because it's not something that any
career counselor is ever really going to tell

328
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:15,039
you, I thought he was crazy
when he was taking German in college.

329
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:19,000
Why are you taking this? But
you know, multiple jobs with big companies

330
00:27:19,079 --> 00:27:26,640
IBM and a number of startups Amazon
other companies that he's been with as a

331
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:33,000
result of his linguistic abilities. Yea, at something that I don't really talk

332
00:27:33,039 --> 00:27:37,480
about. Well, it's interesting because
it wouldn't necessarily be his major. It

333
00:27:37,519 --> 00:27:41,960
wouldn't be, but it was his
love. He was trolled by that,

334
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:47,839
fascinated by that, and there it
goes. It becomes a career. Yeah,

335
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:52,680
so you could build skills that aren't
in the traditional mold of stem or

336
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:57,640
whatever that can gear you up for
success far greater than you ever thought possible.

337
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:03,119
And I will say that all three
of my children more than paid back

338
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:08,039
the exorbitant cost of their college education. You know, my daughters were in

339
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:14,000
Boston private schools. They're enormously expensive. But you know, ten years down

340
00:28:14,079 --> 00:28:18,240
the road, you know they may
make it back any year now. But

341
00:28:19,559 --> 00:28:23,319
all these things are available. So
again, the book that you need to

342
00:28:23,319 --> 00:28:27,079
go take a look at. If
you have anybody you know who is thinking

343
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:32,200
of college, trying to figure out
how to pay for it is graduate debt

344
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:37,160
free, escaping the student loan matrix. I would call it escaping debt slavery

345
00:28:37,279 --> 00:28:41,960
or debt servitude. That was an
early title. Yeah, that was an

346
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:45,279
early title, in ventured servitude.
Yeah, and you know it's not bad,

347
00:28:45,359 --> 00:28:49,359
but there's a lot of options out
there. We've got a link in

348
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:53,119
the show notes to this interview to
the book so you can obtain it.

349
00:28:53,759 --> 00:28:59,240
If you've got a question for Dave
myself, shoot us an email. Kl

350
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:03,519
it carry lets dot com. Make
sure when you're at the site Financial Survival

351
00:29:03,559 --> 00:29:08,559
Network dot com you click subscribe because
you will learn all these hacks in every

352
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:15,640
aspect of finance in business, there
are hacks. I mean, Dave,

353
00:29:15,839 --> 00:29:18,640
I traveled. I used to travel
pre pandemic a lot more than I do

354
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:23,880
now, just haven't really gotten back
into it. But I had like every

355
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:29,920
single travel hack that you could imagine
and saved me hours and hours. You

356
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:33,519
know, it really makes a difference. So if you know the hacks and

357
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:37,640
you got some substance, it will
take you a long long way. They

358
00:29:37,799 --> 00:29:42,559
appreciate you coming on. We will
definitely talk to you again and be well.

359
00:29:42,799 --> 00:29:48,640
Thank you appreciate it. Thanks for
listening to carry Lets's Financial Survival Network,

360
00:29:48,839 --> 00:29:52,680
your solution to today's trying times.
For the latest, go to Financial

361
00:29:52,759 --> 00:30:04,079
Survival Network dot com. Financial Survival
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