WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:03.680 But I think there's a great impatience where people don't see the price moving up 2 00:00:03.919 --> 00:00:08.599 and so they instantly infer well, if that's the case, it must mean 3 00:00:08.800 --> 00:00:13.160 that it's a dead ecosystem and it's in a great decline. Meanwhile, we're 4 00:00:13.240 --> 00:00:17.519 just about to do the greatest governance upgrade in the history of the project and 5 00:00:17.600 --> 00:00:21.280 probably the history of the industry. We have the best scalability plan. We 6 00:00:21.320 --> 00:00:25.000 have a very vibrant, rich community. When you look at rare Evo and 7 00:00:25.039 --> 00:00:29.039 you look at the Kardono Foundation summit, you look at all the cool things 8 00:00:29.079 --> 00:00:33.000 the communities building, and there's all these cool DAPs and DeFi projects which are 9 00:00:33.000 --> 00:00:40.479 all home grown and they don't have ponzonomics or any of these other things. 10 00:00:44.479 --> 00:00:47.520 This content is brought to you by Uphold, which is one of the top 11 00:00:47.520 --> 00:00:52.200 crypto platforms out there, which allows you to easily buy and sell trade Bitcoin 12 00:00:52.320 --> 00:00:56.359 and the top all coins in the market. Uphold lists two hundred and sixty 13 00:00:56.359 --> 00:01:00.759 plus cryptocurrencies. They also allow you to trade precious metals such as gold, 14 00:01:00.799 --> 00:01:03.239 silver, palladium, and platinum. I've been a user of Uphold since twenty 15 00:01:03.280 --> 00:01:07.519 eighteen, so I can vouchhoo this platform. 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If you'd like to learn more about Uphold, please visit the link 25 00:01:49.519 --> 00:01:53.400 in the description. Welcome to the Thinking Crypto podcast. I'm your host, 26 00:01:53.439 --> 00:01:57.680 Tony Edward and with me today is Charles Hoskinson who's the founder of Cardono. 27 00:01:57.000 --> 00:02:00.799 Charles, great to have you back on. It's great to be here, 28 00:02:00.840 --> 00:02:02.799 Tony, thank you so much for having me on. Yeah, Charles, 29 00:02:02.920 --> 00:02:07.319 I'm excited to chat with you. Obviously not your first time on the podcast. 30 00:02:07.439 --> 00:02:09.240 I'm a Cardono token holder, so I have a lot of questions. 31 00:02:09.479 --> 00:02:15.000 The community sent me a bunch of questions to ask you, and of course 32 00:02:15.080 --> 00:02:17.719 want to get your take on the general crypto market. I would love if 33 00:02:17.719 --> 00:02:22.879 we can start off with what's upcoming for Cardana. What's the latest. One 34 00:02:22.919 --> 00:02:28.439 item I read is an upcoming hard fork. Yeah, So we're working in 35 00:02:28.479 --> 00:02:31.400 parallel on the last two parts of the Cardinal roadmap. There's bas Show and 36 00:02:31.520 --> 00:02:37.879 Voltaire. You need Voltaire for certain parts of bas Show. So Voltaire is 37 00:02:37.919 --> 00:02:42.960 all about governance, and there was always this idea of creating the largest, 38 00:02:43.039 --> 00:02:49.240 most representative on chain government in the entire cryptocurrency space, and we spent two 39 00:02:49.360 --> 00:02:53.159 years as an ecosystem having those discussions. So we wrote first to SIP. 40 00:02:53.280 --> 00:02:58.680 SIP sixteen ninety four were named after the birthday of Voltaire the poet, and 41 00:02:59.439 --> 00:03:04.000 we we then socialize that throughout the entire community. There was more than twenty 42 00:03:04.000 --> 00:03:07.520 five workshops all across the world, and it took over a year and a 43 00:03:07.560 --> 00:03:12.840 half of dialogue to get to a final design. And now we're in as 44 00:03:12.840 --> 00:03:17.039 an ecosystem the last stages of implementation of the test net for these governance tools, 45 00:03:17.199 --> 00:03:22.400 and then it's called Sancho net. So Note nine dot zero, which 46 00:03:22.439 --> 00:03:27.199 is going to come out probably next week, is basically the fork ready candidate. 47 00:03:27.719 --> 00:03:30.719 So how it works in cardoto Land is that once all the discussions have 48 00:03:30.759 --> 00:03:34.680 been had, the SIP process has been followed, which takes quite a bit 49 00:03:34.719 --> 00:03:38.400 of time and a lot of hands touch it from many different institutions. This 50 00:03:38.520 --> 00:03:42.919 stakepool operators have to be that final line in deciding whether to conduct a hardfork 51 00:03:43.000 --> 00:03:46.599 or not. So we need seventy percent of them to install and then the 52 00:03:46.639 --> 00:03:51.159 hard fork will get initiated. So we're almost there. Usually it takes about 53 00:03:51.199 --> 00:03:53.759 a month for that to occur. But this is a very significant hard fork 54 00:03:53.800 --> 00:03:59.759 because not only does it add a completely new governance system, so de reps 55 00:03:59.759 --> 00:04:04.240 and a constitutional committee and constitutional guard rails and representation in these types of things, 56 00:04:04.919 --> 00:04:09.360 it also actually adds a bunch of enhancements to Plutus, so Plutus B 57 00:04:09.479 --> 00:04:14.319 three which allows for BLS supports, so that basically brings roll ups and zero 58 00:04:14.400 --> 00:04:17.920 knowledge stuff and all kinds of really cool scalability things into the Cardino ecosystem. 59 00:04:18.240 --> 00:04:23.160 So this is the largest and most significant hard fork ever done, and it's 60 00:04:23.199 --> 00:04:28.199 the most meaningful because it basically builds a whole un chain. Government turns on 61 00:04:28.240 --> 00:04:31.399 the Cardino Treasury. There's almost a billion dollars of value floating around there, 62 00:04:32.160 --> 00:04:39.560 and it basically turns on democratic consent and constitutional representation. So people will register 63 00:04:39.639 --> 00:04:43.879 d reps just like they register stake pools, and they can delegate to them, 64 00:04:43.920 --> 00:04:47.240 and those de reps can vote, and those de reps and constitutional committee 65 00:04:47.240 --> 00:04:51.240 members basically control all the major governance actions, whether it be hard forks or 66 00:04:51.279 --> 00:04:58.160 treasury withdrawals or protocol parameter updates. It's the largest and most significant doo ever 67 00:04:58.199 --> 00:05:03.800 built for for our industry. So obviously this one's being closely watched by many 68 00:05:03.839 --> 00:05:09.839 people and it's really exciting, but it's a little scary because there's no going 69 00:05:09.879 --> 00:05:13.879 back. You know. It's like the domino effect. You've pushed the domino 70 00:05:14.000 --> 00:05:17.319 and you just have to watch what happens afterwards. But we're all in good 71 00:05:17.319 --> 00:05:21.000 spirits about that. The other major thing is Basho, and there's kind of 72 00:05:21.000 --> 00:05:25.720 a multiprong scalability approach that we've been taking as an ecosystem. So we have 73 00:05:25.800 --> 00:05:29.639 Hydra which is rapidly approaching version one, and there's a lot of cool and 74 00:05:29.680 --> 00:05:32.800 interesting things that will be demoed at rare Evo for that, and that's kind 75 00:05:32.800 --> 00:05:38.360 of our off chain state channels play, which is usually very useful on a 76 00:05:38.480 --> 00:05:42.879 DAPT by DAPT basis. Then you also have things like or worse layoffs. 77 00:05:42.879 --> 00:05:46.199 We just published the paper for that six years in the making, so it 78 00:05:46.199 --> 00:05:48.079 took a really long time to get there, but in our view, it 79 00:05:48.160 --> 00:05:53.319 solves a big chunk of the blockchain trilemma, where you get pretty much the 80 00:05:53.360 --> 00:05:57.519 fastest protocol you can get. It's called a one minus delta protocol, but 81 00:05:57.639 --> 00:06:00.519 you preserve that fifty percent Byzantine resistance, and actually you have a higher degree 82 00:06:00.560 --> 00:06:04.199 of decentralization than we currently do, which is best in class for consensus. 83 00:06:04.240 --> 00:06:08.680 So we're very proud of that. And now it's entering the prototyping phase. 84 00:06:09.120 --> 00:06:12.240 And then we have things like partner chains, for example, which take very 85 00:06:12.319 --> 00:06:17.120 high load applications off the cardio network and into their own dedicated side chain that 86 00:06:17.199 --> 00:06:21.240 basically can run in parallel with the system. And then of course all the 87 00:06:21.319 --> 00:06:27.120 enhancements we're making the zero knowledge space and recursive space thanks to pluted V three 88 00:06:27.240 --> 00:06:30.759 and Midnight so very vibrant, and it's kind of an all of the aboves 89 00:06:31.079 --> 00:06:35.920 scalability strategy and a little bit of optimization, a little bit of new capabilities, 90 00:06:36.279 --> 00:06:39.680 some of the old things that you've all come to know and expect, 91 00:06:39.800 --> 00:06:44.639 like state channels and roll ups, and some new things like or horse loos, 92 00:06:44.680 --> 00:06:47.439 which really innovate and bring a completely new way of looking at this stuff 93 00:06:47.439 --> 00:06:53.959 to the industry as a whole. So Bascho is in deep development and there's 94 00:06:54.000 --> 00:06:57.759 a lot of really cool things happening. You need Voltaire to get to Bacho 95 00:06:57.879 --> 00:07:01.480 because there are certain decisions that have to be made about how to roll things 96 00:07:01.519 --> 00:07:08.000 out and where to break backwards compatibility, and that requires complex governance to be 97 00:07:08.040 --> 00:07:12.240 able to have that discussion and debate and eventually converge to it. You can't 98 00:07:12.279 --> 00:07:15.959 really do that in a more simplistic governance. Since so I have a couple 99 00:07:15.000 --> 00:07:20.160 of fall up questions here in regards to governance. Let's say there's a new 100 00:07:20.279 --> 00:07:26.759 CARDONO tooken holder at to token holder listening. Is there like a threshold how 101 00:07:26.800 --> 00:07:30.040 would they be able to participate in some of these votes if you could take 102 00:07:30.079 --> 00:07:31.680 us behind the scenes at or is it still too early to talk about that? 103 00:07:32.279 --> 00:07:35.480 No, it's not too early. The design has been over a two 104 00:07:35.519 --> 00:07:39.560 year period, people have talked about it, and so the design is completely 105 00:07:39.560 --> 00:07:45.519 known and fully formalized. Yeah, so basically it's a representative democracy, and 106 00:07:45.600 --> 00:07:47.680 so we try to take the best elements of a republic, so you have 107 00:07:47.759 --> 00:07:55.519 constitutional representation and representatives and combine that with liquid feedback, which is a concept 108 00:07:55.560 --> 00:07:59.920 that the Pirate Party came up with about twenty years ago. So basically the 109 00:08:00.120 --> 00:08:05.720 idea is that there's two primary houses and kind of a fallback. And so 110 00:08:05.000 --> 00:08:09.399 the two houses are the d reps and the Constitutional Committee. The d reps 111 00:08:09.720 --> 00:08:13.800 they register very much like a person registers a stake pool operator and then you 112 00:08:13.839 --> 00:08:18.160 can delegate to them a vote, so you can be your own de rep 113 00:08:18.199 --> 00:08:22.199 and delegate to yourself and that's how you participate directly in votes. Or you 114 00:08:22.240 --> 00:08:26.759 can delegate just like you do to a stakepool somebody you like or coalition of 115 00:08:26.800 --> 00:08:28.879 people that you like, because you can delegate to multiple d reps. So 116 00:08:28.920 --> 00:08:33.679 this allows political parties to form, and this allows special interest groups to form 117 00:08:33.720 --> 00:08:37.320 and these types of things. And there are seven different governance actions that can 118 00:08:37.360 --> 00:08:41.600 be brought before a d rep. Everything from was drawing money from the Cardino 119 00:08:41.639 --> 00:08:46.919 treasury, to initiating a hard fork, to changing protocol parameter and everything in 120 00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:50.240 between. Now, each of these actions are defined in SIP sixteen ninety four, 121 00:08:50.320 --> 00:08:52.480 so if you're curious, you can kind of look up the table and 122 00:08:52.519 --> 00:08:58.000 see that. Now, for more significant governance actions you have to then involve 123 00:08:58.000 --> 00:09:01.279 the Constitutional Committee as well. So for example, hardworking the system is very 124 00:09:01.320 --> 00:09:05.320 significant. So there's an odd chain constitution. We wrote an interim constitution, 125 00:09:05.480 --> 00:09:09.639 and there's going to be a constitutional convention in Argentina at the end of the 126 00:09:09.720 --> 00:09:13.759 year to get the final constitution written with the community as a whole. And 127 00:09:13.879 --> 00:09:20.720 basically that establishes some baseline and variants like hey, maybe there should only ever 128 00:09:20.759 --> 00:09:24.200 be forty five billion eight because that was the social contract that people signed up 129 00:09:24.200 --> 00:09:28.519 for these types of things, and then some operating variants that need to be 130 00:09:28.519 --> 00:09:33.840 put into bootstrap the system. And basically the Constitutional Committee's job is to look 131 00:09:33.879 --> 00:09:39.759 at governance actions from the perspective of the constitution and ask is this constitutional or 132 00:09:39.799 --> 00:09:41.440 not? For example, are they trying to print money out of thin air 133 00:09:41.559 --> 00:09:46.279 or these types of things. In some cases, you can algorithmically protect the 134 00:09:46.279 --> 00:09:48.399 system, so we actually have a smart contract that was written with one hundred 135 00:09:48.399 --> 00:09:52.279 and thirty one on chain guardrails. So in many cases like that print money, 136 00:09:52.320 --> 00:09:56.799 you can stop that. And others are social consensus, which means that 137 00:09:56.879 --> 00:10:01.320 the constitial Committee can basically act as a stop and for very significant things, 138 00:10:01.320 --> 00:10:05.840 the stake pool operators get involved as well, and so it's a tripartite model. 139 00:10:07.399 --> 00:10:09.039 So what's so cool about it is that we took some of the best 140 00:10:09.080 --> 00:10:15.799 ideas from traditional governments and some of these new ideas that come from the Internet 141 00:10:15.799 --> 00:10:18.279 governance, and we try to put them together in a way that creates a 142 00:10:18.320 --> 00:10:24.240 really nice minimum viable government system. And you really judge the quality of your 143 00:10:24.279 --> 00:10:31.480 government by three parameters efficacy, efficiency, and integrity. So efficacy is basically 144 00:10:31.480 --> 00:10:35.480 are you making the right decisions or not? So you usually have some goal 145 00:10:35.519 --> 00:10:41.480 in mind, like hey, I want to reduce poverty or make homeless people 146 00:10:41.919 --> 00:10:45.639 get homes or something, or improve the GDP. Then you can measure it, 147 00:10:46.039 --> 00:10:50.159 so did it happen or not? Efficiency is how quickly can you get 148 00:10:50.200 --> 00:10:52.720 to a decision. So does it take a year to get to yes, 149 00:10:54.200 --> 00:10:56.000 Like if you're voting on a budget, does it take six months to get 150 00:10:56.039 --> 00:10:58.440 a budget done or something? Like that, or do you do it in 151 00:10:58.480 --> 00:11:03.360 a week or something like that. And integrity is who do you leave behind 152 00:11:03.519 --> 00:11:07.720 in the process of making decisions. So high integrity systems take everybody along. 153 00:11:07.840 --> 00:11:13.200 Low integrity systems tend to only focus on a certain group, minority or majority 154 00:11:13.559 --> 00:11:16.360 and benefit them and kind of throw the other people in society away. So 155 00:11:16.559 --> 00:11:22.399 just like there's a blockchain trilemma between scalability and decentralization and security, there is 156 00:11:22.440 --> 00:11:26.840 actually a governance trilemma where it's really hard to have all three properties in the 157 00:11:26.840 --> 00:11:31.200 same governing system. So China, for example, is fairly effective and fairly 158 00:11:31.240 --> 00:11:35.639 efficient. They make decisions very quickly, and also those decisions tend in the 159 00:11:35.679 --> 00:11:39.559 long arc of things to have built up their country into superpower. On the 160 00:11:39.600 --> 00:11:43.559 other hand, a lot of decisions they made don't have a lot of integrity. 161 00:11:43.639 --> 00:11:46.360 You know, a lot of people get left behind, human rights are 162 00:11:46.440 --> 00:11:52.879 violated, these types of things. Switzerland is a high integrity and very effective 163 00:11:52.919 --> 00:11:56.879 government. When they make decisions, they tend to be the right decisions, 164 00:11:56.960 --> 00:12:01.279 and the Swiss have one of the freest, most central societies and most representative 165 00:12:01.320 --> 00:12:05.720 societies in the world. However, it's highly inefficient takes like ten years to 166 00:12:05.720 --> 00:12:11.080 build something in Zurich. You know, it's very slow moving system. The 167 00:12:11.120 --> 00:12:13.720 Swiss, you know, think in terms of decades and centuries, as do 168 00:12:13.799 --> 00:12:18.960 the Japanese. So you know, usually you get two if you're lucky. 169 00:12:18.000 --> 00:12:22.399 It's really hard to have a situation where you get all three. We tried 170 00:12:22.399 --> 00:12:26.960 to design as an ecosystem the governance system of Cardono in a way where we 171 00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:31.120 could try to solve that trilemma and be efficient, effective and have high integrity. 172 00:12:31.360 --> 00:12:37.679 And you typically do this with institutions and constitutions. Your constitution is basically 173 00:12:37.720 --> 00:12:43.480 a memorandum on the integrity principles that you desire, and then your institutions are 174 00:12:43.480 --> 00:12:48.159 there to help take complex decisions and get them to a yes no state so 175 00:12:48.200 --> 00:12:52.039 that they can be voted on quickly and so they can pass quickly after you've 176 00:12:52.080 --> 00:12:54.600 done the desk work and the prep work. So the strength of your institutions 177 00:12:54.639 --> 00:12:58.559 really does tell you if you can be efficient, effective and have high integrity. 178 00:12:58.600 --> 00:13:03.120 And that's the great social experiment that we're conducting kurdon a land. So 179 00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:07.000 we have institutions like Intersect, the members based organization. Anybody who holds ATA 180 00:13:07.080 --> 00:13:11.440 can join and it's taking over a lot of these functions like the product function 181 00:13:11.519 --> 00:13:16.519 and the budget functions and these types of things which are very complicated. But 182 00:13:16.559 --> 00:13:20.840 there are other institutions like the Cardono Foundation and so forth, and they're there 183 00:13:20.879 --> 00:13:24.080 to basically lend support aid as well. And so it's kind of a giant 184 00:13:24.080 --> 00:13:31.320 experiment, and we're the most significant blockchain to do something like this. It's 185 00:13:31.360 --> 00:13:35.960 a little scary at times because you have no idea how these pieces are actually 186 00:13:35.960 --> 00:13:39.639 going to come together in practice. But so far, every social signal we've 187 00:13:39.679 --> 00:13:45.080 seen has pointed towards a commitment desire for the community to decentralize this as much 188 00:13:45.080 --> 00:13:48.919 as possible. For example, the first Constitutional Committee elections are being held for 189 00:13:48.960 --> 00:13:52.639 the interim Constitutional Committee responsible for turning this all on. We already have seventeen 190 00:13:52.799 --> 00:13:58.440 candidates running for that Constitutional Committee to be voted on by the ADA holders through 191 00:13:58.679 --> 00:14:03.360 some dow So that's real exciting to see, even pre governance, that governance 192 00:14:03.399 --> 00:14:07.039 is awakening. And I expect to see dozens, if not hundreds of de 193 00:14:07.200 --> 00:14:11.639 reps probably in the next ninety to one hundred and twenty days. So you 194 00:14:11.639 --> 00:14:15.120 have a very diverse set of people whose only job is to think about the 195 00:14:15.120 --> 00:14:18.919 governance of Cardono as a whole Charles hard question. And I don't know if 196 00:14:20.120 --> 00:14:24.039 you can answer this at the top of your head because it requires or there's 197 00:14:24.080 --> 00:14:26.320 a lot of factors and variables. Let's say we're using a scale of one 198 00:14:26.360 --> 00:14:33.320 to ten for decentralization, right, and ten may be impossible to have complete 199 00:14:33.360 --> 00:14:37.240 decentralization. I don't know. You're smarter men these things. But where would 200 00:14:37.279 --> 00:14:41.000 you say Cardono is on that scale? And then with the upcoming hard fork, 201 00:14:41.039 --> 00:14:46.480 where would that put you? So we wrote a paper and then partnered 202 00:14:46.519 --> 00:14:50.720 with the University of Edinburgh to build an index called the EDI, the Edinburgh 203 00:14:50.759 --> 00:14:56.919 Decentralization Index, and that paper identified and the EDI identifies eight different areas that 204 00:14:56.960 --> 00:15:01.200 you can look at decentralization. And so you don't look at decentralization just from 205 00:15:01.240 --> 00:15:05.919 one lens, but you look at it from everything from who controls the consensus 206 00:15:07.000 --> 00:15:09.240 nodes to how many full nodes do you have inside this system? To who 207 00:15:09.279 --> 00:15:15.120 writes the software, to the tokenomics of the system, to particulars behind where 208 00:15:15.159 --> 00:15:18.120 security comes from, is it proof of work or proof of stake based? 209 00:15:18.639 --> 00:15:20.759 And so each and every one of these things can either move you towards a 210 00:15:20.759 --> 00:15:26.159 state of more centralization or less centralization. It just depends on those facts and 211 00:15:26.159 --> 00:15:30.559 circumstances. So the goal of EDI is to come up with a number and 212 00:15:30.679 --> 00:15:35.320 basically tell you explicitly what is the aggregate of all those different activities together. 213 00:15:37.000 --> 00:15:41.759 Now they've been working on it for about two years and they've started measurements, 214 00:15:41.799 --> 00:15:46.240 and so if you go to the website of the Inverurt Decentralization Index, you 215 00:15:46.240 --> 00:15:50.000 can actually see real time some of the measurements of Bitcoin and Ethereum and Cardano. 216 00:15:50.519 --> 00:15:54.879 So I think with the chang hardfork, what this is going to do 217 00:15:56.039 --> 00:16:00.720 is sit Cardano on a path within the next six to twelve months to become 218 00:16:00.840 --> 00:16:06.960 the most decentralized cryptocurrency project ever, including Bitcoin. Now, people have a 219 00:16:07.000 --> 00:16:08.720 gut feeling all I disagree with that. Well, you know, I don't 220 00:16:08.720 --> 00:16:14.279 care about your feelings. I care about facts and measurements. And you know, 221 00:16:14.720 --> 00:16:18.399 when we say it's the most decentralized as measured by the EDI, you 222 00:16:18.440 --> 00:16:22.919 can choose to agree or disagree with the EDI, And if you disagree, 223 00:16:22.960 --> 00:16:27.879 it's an open source academic metric by an academic institution. So then participate in 224 00:16:29.039 --> 00:16:30.960 versioning. The whole point of the EDI is to be version, you know, 225 00:16:32.080 --> 00:16:34.080 version one, two, three, four, in each version tries to 226 00:16:34.200 --> 00:16:38.879 be more representative of what it attempts to measure, which is decentralization as a 227 00:16:38.879 --> 00:16:45.200 whole. So they've already begun pretty extensive conversations with regulators like the FCA, 228 00:16:45.600 --> 00:16:49.759 the ady GM over Abu Dhabi Vara in Dubai, the US Department of Commerce 229 00:16:49.799 --> 00:16:52.639 and others to kind of say, hey, you have this notion of sufficiently 230 00:16:52.679 --> 00:16:57.919 decentralized and your statutory viewpoint, maybe just maybe we should begin discussing and measuring 231 00:16:59.000 --> 00:17:02.399 it. And actually, the pay for EDI was approved and is going to 232 00:17:02.440 --> 00:17:07.319 be submitted, is going to be presented at your financial crypto, so it's 233 00:17:07.319 --> 00:17:10.440 already going through the peer review process as well, and there's been some phenomenal 234 00:17:10.440 --> 00:17:15.960 feedback and that's already feeding into the discussion of whether EDI is an effective measurement 235 00:17:15.240 --> 00:17:19.039 or not. So my view is you have to start somewhere, and because 236 00:17:19.039 --> 00:17:26.079 the industry doesn't already have an accepted index of decentralization, we kind of had 237 00:17:26.119 --> 00:17:29.839 to start from one oh one and get that index bootstrapped. And now the 238 00:17:29.920 --> 00:17:33.079 next step is to apply that index in every dimension, and that is one 239 00:17:33.079 --> 00:17:37.759 of the design goals. When you look at protocols like arbors, layos or 240 00:17:37.759 --> 00:17:41.680 the Unchain government system, they're not just being built from a position of efficiency 241 00:17:41.720 --> 00:17:48.559 and effectiveness or throughput, but they're also looking at is decentralization preserved and protected 242 00:17:48.640 --> 00:17:52.920 because that's so sacred for these systems long term viability. Yeah, I need 243 00:17:52.960 --> 00:17:56.799 to do my reading on that, but that's great that some sort of index 244 00:17:56.839 --> 00:18:00.279 and scale is being made here. I think really good for the industry. 245 00:18:00.279 --> 00:18:03.279 Adopt a standard like that and it can help, you know, stop some 246 00:18:03.400 --> 00:18:07.519 food because we know how. We'll talk a bit about crypto media and things 247 00:18:07.559 --> 00:18:11.119 later, but you know, we can use actual data in facts versus people 248 00:18:11.160 --> 00:18:15.759 just tweeting stuff now and by the way, we've been reaching out to a 249 00:18:15.759 --> 00:18:18.640 lot of blockchain projects, don't look. I just had a conversation with the 250 00:18:18.680 --> 00:18:22.079 al Grant folks and others, and there's a lot of excitement about these indexes 251 00:18:22.119 --> 00:18:26.599 existing because they suffer from the same problem that we suffer from, which is 252 00:18:26.839 --> 00:18:30.400 how do you actually measure decentralization? Right? You know, and then you've 253 00:18:30.400 --> 00:18:33.880 got to get away from feelings and these cults of personality and really get to 254 00:18:33.880 --> 00:18:40.039 the facts of the batter and can we establish a baseline? And once we 255 00:18:40.160 --> 00:18:42.480 have that baseline, how do we then apply it and at least measure the 256 00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:48.519 top thirty forty to fifty projects in the ecosystem And then you have a starting 257 00:18:48.559 --> 00:18:52.079 point, and then you go talk to policy makers and lawmakers and you say, 258 00:18:52.079 --> 00:18:55.680 look, this is our view as an industry of what we think sufficiently 259 00:18:55.720 --> 00:18:59.640 decentralized means. Do you have a differing view and if so, why, 260 00:19:00.039 --> 00:19:03.279 what are you worried about? Is it disclosures, is it information at symmetries, 261 00:19:03.920 --> 00:19:11.160 is it unpredictable failings or cascading failures like we saw in two thousand and 262 00:19:11.160 --> 00:19:15.400 eight because of over centralization or lack of transparency, you know, these types 263 00:19:15.400 --> 00:19:18.480 of things. And so they're obviously going to have a view on that, 264 00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:22.240 and then our goal is to address that view and get that into the index 265 00:19:22.319 --> 00:19:25.680 as well. And then the hope is over time that this becomes a steering 266 00:19:25.720 --> 00:19:30.599 tool for project management, roadmap development, and ultimately regulatory compliance. Yeah, 267 00:19:30.680 --> 00:19:34.759 great point. I know you're hinting towards let's say, like the SEC. 268 00:19:36.039 --> 00:19:40.000 I'm sure the industry would love to have that data to fight back, you 269 00:19:40.039 --> 00:19:45.960 know, against government overreach. That would be pretty significant in these lawsuits and 270 00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:48.799 so forth. Yeah, and also in just lawmaking. So like FIT twenty 271 00:19:48.839 --> 00:19:53.799 one, which everybody prays past, it has embedded within it a definition of 272 00:19:53.799 --> 00:19:59.000 decentralization. So that's an example, and it's the same for the FIA with 273 00:19:59.079 --> 00:20:03.720 the concept of the Financial innovation ACLAMUS is build with the concept of an ancillary 274 00:20:03.759 --> 00:20:07.839 access asset and FIT I believe they call it a restricted digital asset, whatever 275 00:20:07.880 --> 00:20:12.160 the nomenclature is. You have this concept of it starts as a security and 276 00:20:12.200 --> 00:20:15.839 then it goes through a series of upgrades and then eventually it becomes a commodity, 277 00:20:17.319 --> 00:20:21.559 and the gatekeeper there is the level of decentralization of the project. So 278 00:20:21.759 --> 00:20:26.920 the Hindman test with ethereum kind of implied this. But this is eventually going 279 00:20:26.960 --> 00:20:30.720 to be written down in a law somewhere in the United States. So for 280 00:20:30.759 --> 00:20:34.319 this to work appropriately, the policy makers are going to have to decide what 281 00:20:34.359 --> 00:20:37.880 that test is, and usually that means they're going to form a committee between 282 00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:44.160 the CFTC, which regulates commodities and the SEC which regulates securities, and for 283 00:20:44.240 --> 00:20:49.960 them to agree on something having an academic standardized benchmark that universities use and potentially 284 00:20:49.960 --> 00:20:55.440 even standards bodies like Department of Commerce could use, is probably a better approach 285 00:20:55.640 --> 00:21:00.960 because then it takes subjectivity out of the assessment and you have an objective measurement. 286 00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:03.640 For better or for worse. Now you can argue that that measurement is 287 00:21:03.640 --> 00:21:07.240 not a reflection reality or doesn't cover enough use cases. And that's the point 288 00:21:07.279 --> 00:21:11.200 of versioning it, you know, that's the point of waking up every day 289 00:21:11.240 --> 00:21:12.759 and say, well, tell us what version two should look like. What 290 00:21:12.799 --> 00:21:17.559 did we miss in the in the index? And if it becomes an industry 291 00:21:17.599 --> 00:21:22.839 accepted print a project, then very quickly one or two years, it'll probably 292 00:21:22.880 --> 00:21:26.319 converge the right measurement. Yeah. You know, as you were saying that 293 00:21:26.359 --> 00:21:29.319 I was thinking of, and I think you alluded to it, is that 294 00:21:30.319 --> 00:21:33.240 something starts as a security, but eventually it becomes decentralized, then it would 295 00:21:33.240 --> 00:21:38.799 go under the cfdc's jurisdiction. But that same scale or index enterprises can look 296 00:21:38.799 --> 00:21:41.920 at that or individual builder. Let's right, I want to launch an NFT 297 00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:45.759 and I'm like, I want to go to the most decentralized blockchain or what's 298 00:21:45.799 --> 00:21:48.319 in the top five of the centralization I can do that. That helped me 299 00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:56.480 so man remove a lot of ambiguity and confusion. We have like government standards 300 00:21:56.519 --> 00:22:00.079 like Phipps, you know one ninety and et cetera, et cetera, And 301 00:22:00.119 --> 00:22:07.039 there's all these different government standards for how to build stuff. And typically those 302 00:22:07.079 --> 00:22:10.960 are gatekeepers or whether you get a contract or you can bid on something, 303 00:22:11.480 --> 00:22:15.640 or if a large corporation can work with you or not so or CMMI is 304 00:22:15.680 --> 00:22:21.880 another example of that. And so by having these benchmarks, what you can 305 00:22:21.920 --> 00:22:26.920 do is in the procurement process or quality process or security process, say I 306 00:22:26.000 --> 00:22:33.240 only feel comfortable building on a system that's above this particular threshold, and you 307 00:22:33.319 --> 00:22:36.640 really have to dig into the governance of it other such things, because nobody 308 00:22:36.640 --> 00:22:40.279 wants to build on Quicksand you don't want to go as a company and make 309 00:22:40.319 --> 00:22:44.400 a bet, you know, for a half billion dollar piece of software only 310 00:22:44.440 --> 00:22:48.000 to discover that the core maintainers have disappeared or you know, it's been forked 311 00:22:48.039 --> 00:22:52.200 because of political problems and now you have a much weaker project. You know, 312 00:22:52.279 --> 00:22:56.079 that would be pretty problematic. Like if you're Samsung, would you feel 313 00:22:56.119 --> 00:23:00.599 super comfortable if the governance of the Android project is really bad and it's having 314 00:23:00.640 --> 00:23:03.279 all these issues. You know, would you really want to use that as 315 00:23:03.319 --> 00:23:07.119 your operating system of your phone? Probably not, you know, So it's 316 00:23:07.160 --> 00:23:10.599 really important that you have some sort of metric that not only tells your level 317 00:23:10.599 --> 00:23:15.000 of decentralization, but part of that decentralization is looking at the continuity and governance 318 00:23:15.039 --> 00:23:19.519 components of the chain itself, because that kind of gives you a sense of 319 00:23:19.559 --> 00:23:23.839 whether that's a high quality product to deal with or a low quality product. 320 00:23:25.279 --> 00:23:30.400 Yeah. Absolutely. Now you had mentioned earlier the Argentina partnership, so that's 321 00:23:30.440 --> 00:23:33.799 what the Cardono Foundation tell us about that. How did that come about and 322 00:23:33.799 --> 00:23:38.839 what's the mission there? So the ecosystems pretty big. So the Cardino Foundation 323 00:23:38.920 --> 00:23:44.359 has been doing some independent work of us in Argentina. We're of course aware 324 00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:48.400 of it because we talked to the same people, and my understanding is that's 325 00:23:48.519 --> 00:23:51.480 an extension of some of the projects that they've had, like in the country 326 00:23:51.480 --> 00:23:56.000 of Georgia, where they've done some really interesting government contracting. What we've been 327 00:23:56.039 --> 00:24:03.079 working on has been basically building strong relations in anticipation of the constitutional convention in 328 00:24:03.160 --> 00:24:07.079 December. Because I have very practical problem to solve. We're bringing more than 329 00:24:07.119 --> 00:24:14.240 fifty people from fifty different countries to be delegates to the Constitutional Convention. Well, 330 00:24:14.599 --> 00:24:17.680 how do visas work? You know, little stuff like that. So 331 00:24:17.680 --> 00:24:21.640 there's a lot of ground game logistical things, and it's incredibly important that we 332 00:24:21.680 --> 00:24:25.920 have connections at the highest levels of the Argentinian government so that nothing gets in 333 00:24:25.960 --> 00:24:30.839 the way of the constitutional delegates. You know, they deserve if they're going 334 00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:33.880 to take time and effort to commit to writing the government of Cardano to get 335 00:24:33.880 --> 00:24:37.359 white glove treatment, so they need to stay at safe places, they need 336 00:24:37.359 --> 00:24:42.000 to have good transportation, good food, and also get their visas approved. 337 00:24:42.039 --> 00:24:45.640 In these things, so there's a very practical, tangible set of engagements that 338 00:24:45.680 --> 00:24:51.759 have occurred, and we've already sent two delegations to Argentina to begin building up 339 00:24:51.759 --> 00:24:55.960 that corpus. I would also like to spend some time with the President, 340 00:24:56.680 --> 00:25:00.359 so we'll see if we can get our schedules aligned in July and at that 341 00:25:00.799 --> 00:25:03.319 to happen. But it would be very nice to sit down and understand more 342 00:25:03.359 --> 00:25:08.480 deeply about what his goals are for Argentina because there's actually a very strong cardinal 343 00:25:08.559 --> 00:25:15.559 relationship with Argentina. We didn't just start conversations today. People have been working 344 00:25:15.599 --> 00:25:21.039 on Cardono from Argentina since twenty sixteen, eight years ago. It's one of 345 00:25:21.079 --> 00:25:25.000 the very first firms to write code for the Cardinal project was Atex, which 346 00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:27.759 has now been acquired by Globin. But Alan Werbner and his team started working 347 00:25:27.759 --> 00:25:33.079 on that code in twenty sixteen, So there's almost a decade long Buenos Aire's 348 00:25:33.079 --> 00:25:37.079 connection in particular to the Cardinal project. And so there's a lot of really 349 00:25:37.119 --> 00:25:41.960 cool things, whether it be a talleprism, or it be work on partner 350 00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:45.160 chains, or work on Midnight or Cardinal Core, that I think could be 351 00:25:45.200 --> 00:25:49.799 done by Argentinian developers. And so really, if the president wants, you 352 00:25:49.880 --> 00:25:52.799 know, I think it would be very easy for us to actually set up 353 00:25:52.839 --> 00:25:57.039 a center of excellence to do cryptocurrency development in the country. But you know, 354 00:25:57.160 --> 00:26:00.799 you always extend the Curtis see and try to get a deeper understanding what 355 00:26:00.880 --> 00:26:06.680 each administration values. In some cases they're quite compatible, you know, in 356 00:26:06.720 --> 00:26:10.559 other cases they're not, And so it's really important just to have a dialogue 357 00:26:10.559 --> 00:26:14.519 and engage with people and say, okay, well we bring jobs, and 358 00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:18.759 obviously we bring a great ecosystem and would this technology be useful. I happen 359 00:26:18.799 --> 00:26:26.039 to believe that Argentina is in a very interesting place in history where this current 360 00:26:26.119 --> 00:26:30.319 government has, through a process he likes to call the chainsaw and the blender, 361 00:26:30.200 --> 00:26:34.200 the chainsaw cut programs and the blender not increase the spending and let inflation 362 00:26:34.319 --> 00:26:40.480 cut them, has basically decimated the existing government. And that's step one. 363 00:26:40.640 --> 00:26:44.599 Step two is to rebuild. So then there's an open question of when he's 364 00:26:44.640 --> 00:26:48.160 rebuilding, what does he rebuild with. And my view is that it would 365 00:26:48.160 --> 00:26:52.440 be sensible to rebuild with blockchain based technologies, blockchain based supply chain systems and 366 00:26:52.519 --> 00:26:57.240 voting systems, and transparency systems and accounting systems, and maybe even a blockchain 367 00:26:57.240 --> 00:27:03.240 based money system for the for the state. So obviously we need to get 368 00:27:03.240 --> 00:27:07.599 a deeper understanding if that is on the horizon and what time horizon does that 369 00:27:07.680 --> 00:27:11.039 need to look like. And then that's not going to be done by a 370 00:27:11.079 --> 00:27:15.519 single entity. It'll probably be done by a coalition of actors. And there's 371 00:27:15.519 --> 00:27:19.799 a lot of very prominent Cardono projects that are actually in Argentina. For example, 372 00:27:19.799 --> 00:27:25.599 people don't a lot of people don't know TX pipe is based in Argentina. 373 00:27:26.079 --> 00:27:29.720 You know, that's a major Cardono project, twenty six people on that, 374 00:27:30.160 --> 00:27:34.000 so there's a local coalition of people. And that's also another thing that 375 00:27:34.359 --> 00:27:38.799 the government needs to be educated on. Oftentimes you have Western companies come to 376 00:27:38.839 --> 00:27:42.200 South America and they say, hey, we'll do everything and we'll be these 377 00:27:42.200 --> 00:27:48.279 guys up north, come on down South. Well, actually, any meaningful 378 00:27:48.319 --> 00:27:53.519 government contract would probably be serviced by Argentinians if it was actually enacted. So 379 00:27:53.599 --> 00:27:56.759 that's the conversation they have. So you just meet with people and you know, 380 00:27:56.799 --> 00:28:00.640 I'm trying to solve both problems at the same time of getting that constitutional 381 00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:04.160 convention to a great state. We already have some great partners ships. We 382 00:28:04.240 --> 00:28:08.039 just signed an MoU with the University of Buenos Aires, so the convention will 383 00:28:08.039 --> 00:28:11.920 be held at the School of Law, and it's an absolutely stunning place and 384 00:28:12.160 --> 00:28:17.920 it's the perfect place to write a constitution and ratify it. And you know, 385 00:28:17.960 --> 00:28:18.920 if you actually take a look at some of the pitchers, it's one 386 00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:23.880 of the most beautiful all hauls around. And UTN is another university that we're 387 00:28:23.920 --> 00:28:27.000 looking at. We'd love to build a relationship there and there's a lot of 388 00:28:27.000 --> 00:28:32.160 local government that we've been working with as well. So that's the practical side 389 00:28:32.160 --> 00:28:34.559 of it, the meat potatoes side, and then there's just talk to the 390 00:28:34.599 --> 00:28:38.640 government about what its goals are and if they coincide, maybe that's something for 391 00:28:38.720 --> 00:28:42.000 us to take care of the foundation, to take care of our local partners 392 00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:45.680 like t x pipe to take care of and let them be aware that they 393 00:28:45.720 --> 00:28:52.119 actually have a domestic option to blockchain the entire country. Yeah, as you're 394 00:28:52.119 --> 00:28:56.160 saying that, I remember our previous conversations where we talked about countries in Africa 395 00:28:56.240 --> 00:29:00.279 adopting blockchain. Obviously you guys are doing some work there too, and that 396 00:29:00.440 --> 00:29:03.359 they're starting from the ground floor, not like the United States where he's trying 397 00:29:03.400 --> 00:29:07.480 to steer a cruise ship and all the bureaucracy, all the red tape. 398 00:29:07.480 --> 00:29:14.119 But they can move faster and a greater infrastructure faster than maybe the United States 399 00:29:14.119 --> 00:29:18.279 and sebities for US world countries. So that's really great that they can adopt 400 00:29:18.279 --> 00:29:22.839 this technology and just catch up, so to speak. Yeah, and we're 401 00:29:22.880 --> 00:29:26.680 still in Africa. In fact, we're growing by leaps and bounds. We 402 00:29:26.799 --> 00:29:29.920 just launched the Real five website. So if you go to Realfi dot Co. 403 00:29:30.200 --> 00:29:33.279 You can see that, and that's a microfinance play. It's made by 404 00:29:33.359 --> 00:29:37.359 John O'Connor and the other guys that he was our director of African Operations and 405 00:29:37.359 --> 00:29:41.119 now he's the CEO of real Fi and it's one of our portfolio spinouts. 406 00:29:41.119 --> 00:29:47.160 And that company employs I think almost fifty people and they're based into Robi and 407 00:29:47.519 --> 00:29:52.759 we've already deployed five million dollars of capital to lend through channel partners who are 408 00:29:53.119 --> 00:29:57.960 regulated actors the microfinance business. So we've learned a lot in that process and 409 00:29:59.000 --> 00:30:02.599 we've been a bit more concern are deliberate about how to approach these types of 410 00:30:02.680 --> 00:30:06.440 jurisdictions. And everyone's different. You know, Kenya is radically different places in 411 00:30:06.559 --> 00:30:11.000 Nigeria than Ethiopia. And in some cases you get great outcomes and other cases 412 00:30:11.039 --> 00:30:15.119 not so much. And you don't let those things dissuade you. You have 413 00:30:15.200 --> 00:30:19.359 to be a bit relentless and resilient and every day you wake up and you 414 00:30:19.400 --> 00:30:26.200 try to find a different approach. So maybe doesn't work in one system fertilizer 415 00:30:26.279 --> 00:30:29.759 vouchers, but then maybe you make it work with fast moving consumer goods or 416 00:30:29.799 --> 00:30:33.240 maybe that doesn't work out, so you do remittances, or maybe it's microfinance. 417 00:30:33.279 --> 00:30:37.119 That's the key, because at the end of the day, it's infrastructure. 418 00:30:37.519 --> 00:30:41.559 And every time somebody does something, if they're touching a blockchain system, 419 00:30:41.640 --> 00:30:45.759 they get a wallet, they get an identity, they get cryptocurrencies, and 420 00:30:45.839 --> 00:30:48.680 once they have it, they are their own bank. It's a self sovereign 421 00:30:48.759 --> 00:30:53.079 identity, and ultimately they're in charge of their economic agency. And that's the 422 00:30:53.160 --> 00:30:57.880 mission is to bank the unbanked. And you don't have to bank the unbanked 423 00:30:57.880 --> 00:31:03.680 through way A versus WAYB. It doesn't matter which road you take. You're 424 00:31:03.720 --> 00:31:08.680 heading to one destination, which is getting people economic autonomy, so they have 425 00:31:08.799 --> 00:31:12.000 agency and they're in control of their lives. So I think the model that 426 00:31:12.079 --> 00:31:15.480 John has come up with, which is tempered with about six years of history 427 00:31:15.519 --> 00:31:21.240 there in Africa, is a really good one and we're real excited to see 428 00:31:21.279 --> 00:31:25.480 that grow. And it's already starting to take off by leaps and bounds, 429 00:31:25.519 --> 00:31:30.319 and we've gotten some great preliminary data. You know, interest rates fell from 430 00:31:30.359 --> 00:31:34.799 eighty five percent to like thirteen percent. NPL which is a non performing loans 431 00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:40.799 fell from forty percent to two percent. Imagine having a forty percent default rate 432 00:31:40.880 --> 00:31:45.759 and then you go down to two percent twenty times better, So we make 433 00:31:45.839 --> 00:31:52.000 more, they pay less, and the overall structure goes from you know, 434 00:31:52.559 --> 00:31:56.599 a big chunk of loans failing almost more than a third, all the way 435 00:31:56.640 --> 00:32:04.119 down to two ninety eight percent success. It's just remarkable all things considered. 436 00:32:04.359 --> 00:32:06.880 Now there's a lot more to do. There's a founder effect in that, 437 00:32:07.119 --> 00:32:09.720 and you know a huge amount of work on the credit scoring side, and 438 00:32:10.039 --> 00:32:13.960 you've got to syndicate, so it has to go across border, and then 439 00:32:13.960 --> 00:32:16.720 eventually you have to add in some more of the blockchain crypto components and then 440 00:32:16.720 --> 00:32:21.680 eventually open it up to the retail side. So that's a multi year journey 441 00:32:21.920 --> 00:32:24.200 that they're going on, and they've already spent two years of that multi year 442 00:32:24.279 --> 00:32:28.839 journey, you know, getting that into play. But we built all that 443 00:32:28.920 --> 00:32:31.920 technology out for like a talleprism, it's not just an identity system. It 444 00:32:31.920 --> 00:32:37.079 can also be used as a credit system as well, and we've built out 445 00:32:37.119 --> 00:32:40.279 the voting software and built out wallet software, and some variant of Lace will 446 00:32:40.279 --> 00:32:44.839 eventually work its way into that pipeline, and then we'll see where the stable 447 00:32:44.880 --> 00:32:47.319 coin side of Cardinal fits and then you know that works its way in as 448 00:32:47.359 --> 00:32:53.240 well. So we built capabilities over a long period of time and you know 449 00:32:53.400 --> 00:32:57.799 it works just as well in Argentina as it does in Kenya. So that's 450 00:32:57.839 --> 00:33:00.160 another thing you bring to the table and you say, by the way, 451 00:33:00.160 --> 00:33:04.240 we're doing this amazing stuff in Africa, would this be interesting to you guys 452 00:33:04.279 --> 00:33:07.480 as well? And so that's the great part about having that conversation and you 453 00:33:07.480 --> 00:33:14.960 can bring people together. Yeah, I love it, and I'm just excited 454 00:33:14.960 --> 00:33:19.079 to see what the future like ten years from now with blockchain, AI and 455 00:33:19.119 --> 00:33:22.960 all these technologies helping some of these countries which you know, in the old 456 00:33:23.119 --> 00:33:27.960 I guess industrial system got left behind, right because maybe they didn't have the 457 00:33:28.039 --> 00:33:34.200 natural resources or currency problems or bad governments. But now blockchain and can really 458 00:33:34.279 --> 00:33:37.160 bring a lot of benefits to people and the average man, not just the 459 00:33:37.240 --> 00:33:42.519 guys sitting at the top in the government. So that's great. I didn't 460 00:33:42.519 --> 00:33:45.799 want to ask you about Midnight side chain, tell us about Midnight what is 461 00:33:45.839 --> 00:33:51.000 it? How Cardono will benefit? And then some people that we are saying 462 00:33:51.000 --> 00:33:54.160 there's an ear drop coming from this, Yeah, that's correct. So there's 463 00:33:54.200 --> 00:34:00.720 this problem of how do you sell the centralized services to the entire blockchain industry. 464 00:34:00.440 --> 00:34:06.279 So you know, you have an application on Ethereum, is it really 465 00:34:06.319 --> 00:34:10.719 on Ethereum if it's also on Infira or Alchemy and that the bulk of your 466 00:34:10.719 --> 00:34:15.840 logic runs there, Like open c is another example, Yeah, okay, 467 00:34:15.960 --> 00:34:20.199 we have an NFT on the Ethereum blockchain. But if all your APIs and 468 00:34:20.239 --> 00:34:22.960 your wallet and everything basically just talk to open see and they don't even check 469 00:34:22.960 --> 00:34:27.840 the Ethereum blockchain, if open sea gets rid of it, like just disappears, 470 00:34:27.880 --> 00:34:31.880 you know. Marty Marlin's book wrote about this. He's one of the 471 00:34:31.880 --> 00:34:37.199 founders of Signal, and he kind of demonstrated the hypocrisy of things where people 472 00:34:37.239 --> 00:34:40.480 are saying it's decentralized and trust lists and Web three, but it's really Web 473 00:34:40.519 --> 00:34:46.320 two or Web two point five. So services matter. And I thought a 474 00:34:46.360 --> 00:34:52.280 lot about how do you do blockchain blockchain deals, and so what I thought 475 00:34:52.320 --> 00:34:59.239 would be really cool is to have a layer that basically specializes in that. 476 00:34:59.280 --> 00:35:02.440 And I wrote this in twenty sixteen and why Cardono and I had this idea 477 00:35:02.480 --> 00:35:07.320 of Cardino SL and cardinalcl. So SL is the main system and cl is 478 00:35:07.400 --> 00:35:10.000 the control layer of the system. So for eight years, you know, 479 00:35:10.039 --> 00:35:15.440 we've been kind of talking about this and exploring this, and eventually we resurrected 480 00:35:15.440 --> 00:35:19.599 the idea with a framework called partner Chains. So what we did is we 481 00:35:19.599 --> 00:35:22.800 looked around. We looked at Cosmos fabric scorex, which was an in house 482 00:35:22.840 --> 00:35:27.400 framework, and Parody Substrate, and we said, which one of these blockchain 483 00:35:27.480 --> 00:35:31.239 builder kits makes the most sense, And a variant of parody Substrate made a 484 00:35:31.239 --> 00:35:35.239 lot of sense. So we took that as a base and then built it 485 00:35:35.320 --> 00:35:37.960 up and created Midnight on top. We'll get the Midnight in a second, 486 00:35:37.960 --> 00:35:42.760 but let's talk about partner chains in general. But basically, the idea is 487 00:35:42.760 --> 00:35:46.199 that you launch something that looks like a layer two to everyone, so it 488 00:35:46.360 --> 00:35:52.119 can talk to and appse from Ethereum or base or BnB or Solana can use 489 00:35:52.159 --> 00:35:59.360 it for whatever service it's providing. Maybe it's computation or privacy, or its 490 00:35:59.400 --> 00:36:01.920 storage, or maybe it's your DAP back end, and instead of running it 491 00:36:01.920 --> 00:36:07.800 in centralized infrastructure, you run it in decentralized infrastructure. Okay, so you're 492 00:36:07.840 --> 00:36:10.840 a layer two to everybody and you run this model and when they query it 493 00:36:10.920 --> 00:36:15.800 they pay in the currency of that chain, so ether or soul or what 494 00:36:15.920 --> 00:36:20.760 have you. And remember we created that technology babble fees. Well, then 495 00:36:20.840 --> 00:36:24.079 what happens is then it can consume the token of that system and then it 496 00:36:24.119 --> 00:36:30.519 can be secured by the Cardano stakepool operators, which means then these transaction fees 497 00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:37.719 and the inflation actually gets paid through to ATA holders and to stakepool operators. 498 00:36:37.000 --> 00:36:39.280 So basically you have your cake and you need it too. You have these 499 00:36:39.960 --> 00:36:46.079 pseudo independent networks where they partner with each other. So the service provider partners 500 00:36:46.119 --> 00:36:52.320 with Cardano for security and infrastructure and decentralization from day one, as well as 501 00:36:52.360 --> 00:36:58.920 the security of the Cardino Native Asset standard. But then that pays it's tokens, 502 00:36:59.039 --> 00:37:02.280 it's inflation, and it's action fees to Cardano for providing that service. 503 00:37:02.880 --> 00:37:07.840 So you actually get multiple revenue streams now and then in turn it sells its 504 00:37:07.840 --> 00:37:13.519 services to Cardano and the broader blockchain industry. And you say, well, 505 00:37:13.519 --> 00:37:15.360 why would I want to do that, Why not just use a DAP or 506 00:37:15.400 --> 00:37:20.760 something like that. Well, first, this economic model is wildly viral because 507 00:37:20.800 --> 00:37:23.559 you can actually pay that to multiple systems at the same time, so you 508 00:37:23.559 --> 00:37:28.960 actually have inflation go in many different places, so it gives people an interoperability 509 00:37:28.960 --> 00:37:32.719 incentive because they actually care about the token. The second thing is that you 510 00:37:32.760 --> 00:37:38.039 can create chains of consensus algorithms together. So part of the partner chain's framework 511 00:37:38.559 --> 00:37:43.960 is Minotaur and minotaurre It's this multi resource consensus system. So we all the 512 00:37:44.000 --> 00:37:46.079 time we have the bitcoin maxi's proof of work, proof of work, and 513 00:37:46.079 --> 00:37:50.639 then you work proof of steak, proof of steak. And here's what I 514 00:37:50.639 --> 00:37:52.159 happened. You take your peanut butter, you take your jelly, and I 515 00:37:52.239 --> 00:37:54.599 see what I'm doing. See what I'm doing. I'm putting them together. 516 00:37:55.320 --> 00:37:59.159 There we go, peanut butter and jelly. Yay. So what if I 517 00:37:59.159 --> 00:38:02.119 could put proof work, proof of stake together, and more abstractly, what 518 00:38:02.159 --> 00:38:06.760 if I could take proof of X whatever X is, proof of history, 519 00:38:06.760 --> 00:38:09.880 proof of storage, whatever it is, and chain it together with multiple consensus 520 00:38:09.960 --> 00:38:15.599 protocols in the same ledger. What does that mean? It means that your 521 00:38:15.679 --> 00:38:20.800 partner chain can borrow security from Cardano. Cardon gets paid for that. But 522 00:38:20.840 --> 00:38:24.480 then you can also have your own independent consensus algorithms that also secure the system. 523 00:38:25.039 --> 00:38:28.960 For example, let's say you wake up tomorrow and you say, you 524 00:38:29.000 --> 00:38:31.440 know what we need to do is we need to create a competitor to chat 525 00:38:31.480 --> 00:38:36.079 GPT. So we're going to create our own open ai. Okay, well 526 00:38:36.119 --> 00:38:37.920 what do you need for that? Well, you need data, lots and 527 00:38:37.920 --> 00:38:42.440 lots of data, so you need some storage incentive. Okay, what else 528 00:38:42.440 --> 00:38:45.639 do you need? Well, you probably won't keep that data private, so 529 00:38:45.719 --> 00:38:47.559 you need like a privacy system for that. Okay, Well, well what 530 00:38:47.559 --> 00:38:51.440 else do you need? Computation? You need a ton of compute power. 531 00:38:52.000 --> 00:38:55.320 You know, Elon Musk just diverted all of his Nvidia chips from Tesla to 532 00:38:55.679 --> 00:39:00.639 Xai. He's building a ten billion dollars center. Mark Zuckerber is in my 533 00:39:00.760 --> 00:39:05.559 backyard building a center down in Cheyenna million square foot data center that he's building 534 00:39:05.599 --> 00:39:08.480 there. You know, Microsoft is with open ai building one hundred billion dollars 535 00:39:08.519 --> 00:39:13.199 supercomputers. So you need a lot of compute power. Okay, Well, 536 00:39:13.360 --> 00:39:15.840 what if you could create a proof of useful work where the useful work is 537 00:39:15.960 --> 00:39:22.559 training for lllms and inference for LMS. Then you've built a decentralized supercomputer that 538 00:39:22.599 --> 00:39:25.480 it's sokenized as opposed to these central data centers that are being built by Meta 539 00:39:25.519 --> 00:39:30.400 and Microsoft and Xai and these other people, and you could combine that with 540 00:39:30.599 --> 00:39:34.920 BFT protocols and proof of stake protocols and these other things, so you have 541 00:39:34.960 --> 00:39:37.719 fast finality and all these other things, and at the end of the day, 542 00:39:37.760 --> 00:39:40.599 the user experience is the same. It has a chat GPT style interface 543 00:39:40.679 --> 00:39:44.159 and you type it in and when you do your query, you paint a 544 00:39:44.199 --> 00:39:47.000 token for that query, kind of like the API model that everybody has. 545 00:39:47.360 --> 00:39:52.199 So somebody can construct that chain multiple algorithms together, and one for incenttivizing storage 546 00:39:52.239 --> 00:39:57.960 and data acquisition, one for incentivizing useful work and computation, and then one 547 00:39:58.000 --> 00:40:00.320 for fast finality and fast transaction. You put it all together, guess what 548 00:40:00.360 --> 00:40:04.960 you have. Metataur that's partner chains in a nutshell, and somebody's going to 549 00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:07.400 build that. Iagon, for example, is already building proof of storage in 550 00:40:07.480 --> 00:40:13.159 center our ecosystem, World Mobiles building a telecommunications system. It's a blockchain for 551 00:40:13.239 --> 00:40:17.679 telecommunications, which is very different than a normal blockchain. Midnight is one about 552 00:40:17.719 --> 00:40:22.719 privacy, preserving things for private smart contracts because businesses can't keep a secret, 553 00:40:23.000 --> 00:40:27.599 and you know, well, blockchains can't keep a secret. But every business 554 00:40:27.599 --> 00:40:31.679 requires a secret, doesn't matter if you're McDonald's or Microsoft. Every business has 555 00:40:31.719 --> 00:40:35.880 secrets. Your amount of money and your cash register. You're probably not going 556 00:40:35.920 --> 00:40:37.440 to go tell people. Well, you can't put that up on a blockchain 557 00:40:37.519 --> 00:40:42.920 unless your blockchain has privacy preserving smart contracts. So that's the purpose of Midnight. 558 00:40:42.960 --> 00:40:45.039 It is the first of a kind of a new kind of blockchain, 559 00:40:45.039 --> 00:40:50.599 a fourth generation system that can work with everybody. It's kind of a metachain 560 00:40:50.719 --> 00:40:53.760 that can talk to everybody, and it's built in a framework that basically allows 561 00:40:53.800 --> 00:40:59.519 a broad distribution. So typically, if it's a service token, you want 562 00:40:59.559 --> 00:41:02.039 as many people as possible to have that, So you do an air drop 563 00:41:02.320 --> 00:41:07.360 and you just distribute the token across to everybody, so from day one they 564 00:41:07.400 --> 00:41:09.480 can use it. They don't buy it, they don't pay for it. 565 00:41:09.480 --> 00:41:14.119 It's just there because the goal of the system is to be a service, 566 00:41:14.159 --> 00:41:17.639 and it's to be used and provide utility to DAPs and then over time and 567 00:41:17.719 --> 00:41:22.800 economy forms and it allows the ledger to sustain itself just like any of these 568 00:41:22.840 --> 00:41:27.400 others. And then eventually you get many different services and there's there's so many 569 00:41:28.519 --> 00:41:34.920 social networks, large language models and AI telecommunications, storage and infrastructure and hosting, 570 00:41:35.400 --> 00:41:37.800 you know, to replace the inferiors in alchemies, privacy as a service. 571 00:41:38.599 --> 00:41:42.559 You know, you can look at medical records, you can go down 572 00:41:42.639 --> 00:41:45.280 the line and you create this spoke infrastructure. What's really cool though, is 573 00:41:45.320 --> 00:41:51.239 because they settle in their own domain, those transactions don't bloat the main card 574 00:41:51.280 --> 00:41:54.320 Ono network because you think about it like a world Mobile. Let's say they 575 00:41:54.360 --> 00:42:00.199 get to their goal of a billion subscribers. Well, every single time your 576 00:42:00.239 --> 00:42:06.039 cell phone connects to a tower, that's a transaction. Okay, so that's 577 00:42:06.239 --> 00:42:08.840 a lot of juice. And does that value anything that you're doing. Does 578 00:42:08.880 --> 00:42:13.960 that help your NFT collection or your financial settlements or these things. No, 579 00:42:14.440 --> 00:42:16.760 but that's an example of what that network will need the process. So they 580 00:42:16.800 --> 00:42:21.960 need slightly different technology than what Ethereum is going to offer, a base is 581 00:42:22.000 --> 00:42:23.599 going to offer, Solona is going to offer, Cardono's going to offer, 582 00:42:23.840 --> 00:42:28.159 So they really need kind of their own blockchain. But at the same job 583 00:42:28.360 --> 00:42:31.840 token it's not their primary prerogative to go and figure out how to replicate or 584 00:42:31.960 --> 00:42:36.440 boris or our security network effects or these types of things. So really you 585 00:42:36.440 --> 00:42:38.599 want to be a partner where you have the parts of the chain that you 586 00:42:38.639 --> 00:42:43.239 can build in a modular way for you, and then the parts you don't 587 00:42:43.280 --> 00:42:46.360 care about that are commoditized, like security and consensus, you can borrow that 588 00:42:46.440 --> 00:42:51.039 from a different system, and the process of doing that you pay for it. 589 00:42:51.559 --> 00:42:54.920 So that's the partnership of the partner chain, two blockchains coming together and 590 00:42:54.960 --> 00:42:59.440 partnering with each other, which is a really cool concept. We don't typically 591 00:42:59.519 --> 00:43:04.360 think this in the cryptocurrency space. It's always master slave, like Bitcoin will 592 00:43:04.400 --> 00:43:07.679 dominate all and you'll all be side chains, or Laier too is a bitcoiner, 593 00:43:07.920 --> 00:43:10.599 Ethereum will dominate all, or a Solana will dominate all. It's well, 594 00:43:10.800 --> 00:43:15.719 I'm sorry, business doesn't work this way. Microsoft's existence doesn't put Google 595 00:43:15.719 --> 00:43:21.199 out of business, or Apple's existence doesn't put Microsoft out of business. Somehow, 596 00:43:21.199 --> 00:43:25.000 they've all coexisted and at times they're competitors, but the market's large enough 597 00:43:25.039 --> 00:43:28.840 to sustain that. So I do believe there's going to be an internet of 598 00:43:28.880 --> 00:43:31.280 blockchains, and it's really important that they can talk to each other and transact 599 00:43:31.320 --> 00:43:35.880 with each other. That's the missing link we have right now, interoperability. 600 00:43:36.840 --> 00:43:39.440 Now, speaking of partnerships, and you mentioned Elon muss folks wanted me to 601 00:43:39.519 --> 00:43:45.079 ask you that are their plans to engage with Elon and is it along the 602 00:43:45.119 --> 00:43:50.480 lines of using like the Midnight side chain for things that he's doing at SpaceX 603 00:43:50.599 --> 00:43:54.960 or Twitter or x or Tesla, whatever it may be. It's strange because 604 00:43:54.960 --> 00:44:00.239 there's such a strong overlap and some of the things that we both mutual we 605 00:44:00.320 --> 00:44:06.159 think about and we've reached out numerous times to try to engage with various people, 606 00:44:06.239 --> 00:44:07.960 whether it be at X where we even offer to do free work like 607 00:44:08.039 --> 00:44:13.880 with verified tweets or other things, just because it's so bad right now with 608 00:44:13.960 --> 00:44:17.480 bots and these other things, and it's just always silence. I even know 609 00:44:17.599 --> 00:44:22.360 Kimball Musk and I've talked to him on several occasions, and I know many 610 00:44:22.360 --> 00:44:27.639 people in Eland's orbit, and never once has he mentioned Cardona or me or 611 00:44:27.679 --> 00:44:30.800 anything. President Argentina just retweeted us. Yes, it's like, you know, 612 00:44:30.800 --> 00:44:34.880 a lot of people know about us, but for some reason, we 613 00:44:34.920 --> 00:44:37.760 can't break through. And I don't know why. He's certainly where of Crypto, 614 00:44:37.840 --> 00:44:43.119 he's ware of Doge. She's said things like I agree with metallic you 615 00:44:43.159 --> 00:44:45.199 know, he's friends with Lex Friedman. I'm friends with Lex Friedman. We 616 00:44:45.199 --> 00:44:50.360 share mutual friendships, So I don't know why we haven't been able to square 617 00:44:50.400 --> 00:44:54.559 that circle. And maybe he's got some people in his social circle that don't 618 00:44:54.639 --> 00:44:59.440 like me, and so he's gotten some intel that I'm a bad person to 619 00:44:59.480 --> 00:45:02.440 work with there. Maybe it's just he wants to do his own thing. 620 00:45:02.880 --> 00:45:07.360 I don't know. You know, it makes me sad because I'm an ex 621 00:45:07.480 --> 00:45:12.880 user and I have a million followers there, and it would be problematic for 622 00:45:12.960 --> 00:45:16.320 that platform to fall apart or not be relevant anymore, because that social capital 623 00:45:16.400 --> 00:45:22.159 is so valuable to us and it's quite useful. So I would like to 624 00:45:22.199 --> 00:45:25.360 see X succeed and grow, and if we could ever be part of helping 625 00:45:25.400 --> 00:45:28.960 that out one way or the other, we'd like to do that. But 626 00:45:29.039 --> 00:45:30.360 anyway, you know, there's an old saying, the dog parks, but 627 00:45:30.440 --> 00:45:36.440 the caravan moves on. And you know, Elan does his thing, and 628 00:45:36.480 --> 00:45:40.480 he's Elan Musk and he's a legendary entrepreneur and no one can challenge that, 629 00:45:40.559 --> 00:45:44.800 and people are pretty stupid if they do. You know, all the people 630 00:45:44.840 --> 00:45:47.519 who said Twitter was going to die in two weeks not only did it thrive 631 00:45:47.559 --> 00:45:52.119 and survive, it survived was one tense of the staff. And he just 632 00:45:52.239 --> 00:45:57.039 raised twenty one billion. He just raised six billion dollars out of twenty one 633 00:45:57.039 --> 00:46:01.360 billion dollar valuation for a company who's comes from the Twitter data set. Yeah, 634 00:46:01.840 --> 00:46:07.920 so he's already gotten half his investment back just off of that one play, 635 00:46:07.519 --> 00:46:10.719 and there's a lot more to do. So the guy's a business genius. 636 00:46:10.840 --> 00:46:15.639 You can never count him out. I think the issue is that politically 637 00:46:15.800 --> 00:46:19.159 he's gotten to a point where in certain circles he's become kind of a giga 638 00:46:19.199 --> 00:46:23.920 troll, and so people conflate that with the fact that there's a guy right 639 00:46:23.960 --> 00:46:30.280 now sitting quadriplegic in a wheelchair playing Civilization six with his brain because of Elin 640 00:46:30.360 --> 00:46:36.360 Musk, and they conflate that with Starship now landing, you know, when 641 00:46:36.400 --> 00:46:38.840 it was blowing up on the pad beforehand, and that's probably the platform to 642 00:46:38.880 --> 00:46:43.000 take us back to the moon in Mars, and that's going to happen within 643 00:46:43.039 --> 00:46:46.440 our lifetimes, likely the next ten years. That's this guy, you know, 644 00:46:46.480 --> 00:46:50.639 he does these things for better or for worse, and he's ruthless and 645 00:46:51.559 --> 00:46:55.199 has very bizarre social skills. And ten kids from a pile of different women. 646 00:46:55.280 --> 00:46:59.840 There's probably more we don't even know about. He's just one of those 647 00:46:59.840 --> 00:47:02.840 guys. He's a magical guy. So it's really like a sphinx hard to 648 00:47:02.920 --> 00:47:07.360 understand his motivations and understand why he does what he does. Why does he 649 00:47:07.440 --> 00:47:12.440 have this bizarre fetish for doge coin. Is it that he owns twenty percent 650 00:47:12.440 --> 00:47:15.960 of the supply or is it just he's just like the fucking logo. You 651 00:47:15.159 --> 00:47:20.239 just don't know. With the guy like that, that's the magic of Elon 652 00:47:20.360 --> 00:47:22.719 Musk. So it's a lot of fun and where I think things are very 653 00:47:22.800 --> 00:47:30.400 unfair, like Twitter, the Tesla compensation issue, I thought that was horrendously 654 00:47:30.480 --> 00:47:34.639 unfair for a judge to overrule the will of the shareholders and the board. 655 00:47:35.320 --> 00:47:40.320 Seventy three percent of the non Musk holders of Tesla stock voted to give him 656 00:47:40.360 --> 00:47:45.840 this pay package, as did the board. The judge overruled that, and 657 00:47:45.920 --> 00:47:49.840 in the process of doing that created an avenue for the lawyers who brought the 658 00:47:49.920 --> 00:47:53.559 lawsuit on behalf of a single shareholder who had nine shares which went in value 659 00:47:53.559 --> 00:47:59.719 from two hundred dollars to two thousand dollars five billion dollars. So this particular 660 00:48:00.239 --> 00:48:06.559 affiliated with Joe Biden basically said that it's in the interest of the shareholders to 661 00:48:06.800 --> 00:48:14.079 retroactively overrule them for a very fair deal and hand five billion dollars to attorneys 662 00:48:14.519 --> 00:48:17.039 on behalf of a single shareholder who made a ten x on his investment, 663 00:48:17.440 --> 00:48:22.280 claiming his investment was hurt by that pay package. I just I've never seen 664 00:48:22.280 --> 00:48:27.559 anything in my life, you know, like this. It's an unbelievably unfair 665 00:48:27.719 --> 00:48:30.480 judgment. And it just shows you never to incorporate a business in Delaware, 666 00:48:30.880 --> 00:48:37.199 So you know, put your politics aside. It's you call it how you 667 00:48:37.239 --> 00:48:39.079 see it. There's plenty of things Must does that you know, bothered the 668 00:48:39.159 --> 00:48:43.239 hell out of me. And there's other things that he does that I think 669 00:48:43.280 --> 00:48:47.599 are quite fair or he's been treated unfairly because the positions he's taken. I 670 00:48:47.639 --> 00:48:51.079 can't, for the life me understand, for example, why he has not 671 00:48:51.159 --> 00:48:55.199 put did sinto Twitter so that we can do verified tweets and much more security. 672 00:48:55.239 --> 00:48:59.719 And I can't, for the life we also understand why he hasn't embraced 673 00:48:59.719 --> 00:49:04.280 things the app protocol or the fetiverse or other things that Twitter Blue was trying 674 00:49:05.000 --> 00:49:09.119 to achieve project Blue s guy. There's a lot of really good ideas in 675 00:49:09.199 --> 00:49:14.719 the decentralized social networking space that I think would be quite valuable. I can't 676 00:49:14.800 --> 00:49:19.639 understand, you know, why he hasn't integrated a crypto wallet yet or partnered 677 00:49:19.679 --> 00:49:22.199 with a vendor like Brave for example, to do these types of things. 678 00:49:22.480 --> 00:49:25.320 There's a lot of low hanging fruit who would be dying to partner with them. 679 00:49:25.800 --> 00:49:30.719 And he could make doge the currency of Twitter for example, if he 680 00:49:30.800 --> 00:49:34.679 really wanted to, and actually connected to state channels, so payment channels, 681 00:49:34.679 --> 00:49:37.239 so you can do micro twipping and tipping on tweets and these types of things. 682 00:49:37.840 --> 00:49:40.159 There's a lot there. Now. I know he's moving that direction, 683 00:49:40.239 --> 00:49:44.719 like he's getting money service business licenses. I think he has him more than 684 00:49:44.760 --> 00:49:49.000 twenty states, and he's starting to turn on features. But I mean, 685 00:49:49.440 --> 00:49:52.519 X space is still suck. You know, it's been three years. They 686 00:49:52.599 --> 00:49:57.039 suck and I use them all the time, and I just need a little 687 00:49:57.039 --> 00:50:00.719 bit more, and it would be such an effective tool. You know, 688 00:50:00.760 --> 00:50:05.039 in our own community, there's this neckathon where this next community came together and 689 00:50:05.079 --> 00:50:07.719 they've been going for twelve days straight now and they're going to still and they're 690 00:50:07.719 --> 00:50:14.280 going to keep a twenty four to seven X space open for until Finance lists 691 00:50:14.280 --> 00:50:16.760 them. So I told them, guys, Binance, you might be in 692 00:50:16.760 --> 00:50:20.599 it for the long haul on this one. So that's neckathon might be one 693 00:50:20.679 --> 00:50:22.360 hundred days or two hundred days or three hundred days. But I've joined a 694 00:50:22.400 --> 00:50:27.119 few times and just to wish them well because I admire the effort. But 695 00:50:27.199 --> 00:50:30.719 the point is that they've had to restart that space numerous times because it's rugged. 696 00:50:31.079 --> 00:50:34.760 It'll last like one hundred and twenty hours, one hundred and thirty hours 697 00:50:34.800 --> 00:50:37.599 and it just collapses. It's not enterprise grade software, you know. And 698 00:50:37.599 --> 00:50:40.480 that's okay as a beta, but this product I think has been around for 699 00:50:40.519 --> 00:50:45.320 three years or so forth and it's still where it's at. On the other 700 00:50:45.360 --> 00:50:46.679 hand, I don't know of any other platform where you can just create an 701 00:50:46.760 --> 00:50:52.000 X space and four or five US senators will join, you know, a 702 00:50:52.079 --> 00:50:55.360 president of a country will join. You know, you get a CEO of 703 00:50:55.360 --> 00:50:59.280 a Fortune five hundred company that it's just like on a drop of a hat. 704 00:50:59.320 --> 00:51:01.320 They just see it there and they join. It's pretty remarkable as a 705 00:51:01.360 --> 00:51:06.559 town square. Yeah, that's pretty amazing. Obviously, it kicked off with 706 00:51:06.920 --> 00:51:08.639 Clubhouse I think it was, and then uh, you know, yeah, 707 00:51:08.960 --> 00:51:13.800 adopted it. But yeah, they have to fix it. I get I 708 00:51:13.840 --> 00:51:16.000 have a bunch of problems with it. Anyway, we have to talk about 709 00:51:16.039 --> 00:51:21.119 the building on Cardano because I use, for example, a platform called Sentiment 710 00:51:21.159 --> 00:51:24.679 where I look at different cryptometrics, and Cardano just recently wasn't number one, 711 00:51:24.760 --> 00:51:29.559 or it has been in the top three of developer activity, which is awesome. 712 00:51:30.280 --> 00:51:35.400 You know you mentioned snack. Is there What insights can you give us 713 00:51:35.400 --> 00:51:40.320 as far as what developers are doing on Cardano, you know, anything big 714 00:51:40.440 --> 00:51:44.239 happening that you can share. Yeah, well, there's a lot of really 715 00:51:44.239 --> 00:51:50.079 cool projects like Indigo or Axo or Mehun. There's the usual suspects, and 716 00:51:50.119 --> 00:51:53.119 there's some interesting meme coins too, Like the Hosky community is awesome and I 717 00:51:53.159 --> 00:51:58.480 always enjoy talking to those skies. And then obviously sneck is doing its thing, 718 00:51:59.679 --> 00:52:02.320 and then there's a lot of cool tooling. Like there's this misconception that 719 00:52:02.400 --> 00:52:06.400 you have to know Haskell to be able to program on Cardona. Well, 720 00:52:06.440 --> 00:52:09.360 Aiken is the fastest growing language in the Cardinal universe. It's based on Rust, 721 00:52:10.039 --> 00:52:15.639 so very different dialect, much easier to use for a lot of developers. 722 00:52:15.639 --> 00:52:21.920 Typescript is also coming to Cardona JavaScript dialect, So the developer diversity of 723 00:52:21.960 --> 00:52:27.360 the tooling has really improved over the last year in particular. And that's how 724 00:52:27.400 --> 00:52:30.480 long it should take. You know, there's this enormous impatience in the cryptocurrency 725 00:52:30.480 --> 00:52:35.440 space. But I talked to both Rich Hickey and Martina Durski about this years 726 00:52:35.440 --> 00:52:40.079 ago, and I said, you know, you guys created Cloakture in Skala, 727 00:52:40.239 --> 00:52:44.760 respectively. How long did it take to actually get that language where it 728 00:52:44.800 --> 00:52:49.639 needed to go? And they said, hey, three to seven years is 729 00:52:49.679 --> 00:52:52.320 how long it takes for when you create a programming language where it to mature 730 00:52:52.320 --> 00:52:59.000 and stabilize to a point where people actually feel comfortable using it building actual applications 731 00:52:59.000 --> 00:53:04.079 with it. So twenty twenty one, late in twenty twenty one is when 732 00:53:04.199 --> 00:53:07.960 Plutus came out for its first version. So we're about three years into it 733 00:53:07.079 --> 00:53:10.519 twenty twenty four, and lo and behold, now you have a vibrant ecosystem 734 00:53:10.519 --> 00:53:14.719 and all this great tooling, which is exactly how long, by the way, 735 00:53:14.760 --> 00:53:17.960 it took for Ethereum and for Solana and for these other ecosystems to kind 736 00:53:17.960 --> 00:53:22.239 of get their sea legs and get people to do that. So we haven't. 737 00:53:22.719 --> 00:53:27.719 We're not really super slow. We're following what the best in class languages 738 00:53:27.800 --> 00:53:31.360 like skull Cloature or Python or Rust. By the way, it came out 739 00:53:31.400 --> 00:53:36.559 in twenty fifteen, and it took about eight years for RUSS to really reach 740 00:53:36.599 --> 00:53:39.440 a prominence where it started displacing real C plus plus jobs or these tipsing. 741 00:53:39.559 --> 00:53:45.079 Only recently has Rust really taken off. So it does take a little while 742 00:53:45.199 --> 00:53:49.000 for new languages, new tooling, new platforms, new paradigms, especially when 743 00:53:49.039 --> 00:53:52.519 it's not just a language. We don't have an account style model with Cardono. 744 00:53:52.559 --> 00:53:57.039 It's an extended UTXO, so it's a different accounting model, so you 745 00:53:57.239 --> 00:54:00.960 have to write your apps differently. So it's much akin to like single thread 746 00:54:00.960 --> 00:54:04.760 to multi threaded, you know, like single core to multi core, where 747 00:54:04.800 --> 00:54:07.880 there needed to be a translation when people are writing programs to take advantage of 748 00:54:07.920 --> 00:54:14.480 those processing cores that are inside your system. And we're working our way through 749 00:54:14.480 --> 00:54:19.480 it, and the community is doing really a phenomenal job building tooling and making 750 00:54:19.519 --> 00:54:22.360 that devex better. I'd say we probably have about another twelve to twenty four 751 00:54:22.440 --> 00:54:27.880 months of rough edges. How dishonest the crypto media is. Oh, that 752 00:54:27.920 --> 00:54:30.760 means you can't build anything on kard On for another twelve to twenty four months. 753 00:54:30.920 --> 00:54:34.480 Well, first, go fuck yourself. Second, there's hundreds of great 754 00:54:34.519 --> 00:54:37.719 projects that are building every day. When I say smoothing it out, I 755 00:54:37.800 --> 00:54:43.159 say you get to a usability where the set of developers that you can work 756 00:54:43.199 --> 00:54:49.800 with comfortably broadened to the beginner because it started out advanced and now we're kind 757 00:54:49.800 --> 00:54:53.320 of at the intermediate level and it's moving to the beginner set, meaning that 758 00:54:53.480 --> 00:54:59.000 basically any script kitty can come in interface. I don't necessarily know for a 759 00:54:59.000 --> 00:55:02.159 blockchain system if that's really a good thing or not. You know, it's 760 00:55:02.280 --> 00:55:07.280 inevitable. You can't stop it because people always want to improve accessibility. But 761 00:55:07.400 --> 00:55:10.639 you are dealing with distributed systems, key management, a lot of security, 762 00:55:12.039 --> 00:55:15.320 and if you write these things in the wrong way, regardless of how accessible 763 00:55:15.360 --> 00:55:17.920 the tools are, you will introduce security problems and you'll get hacked, which 764 00:55:17.920 --> 00:55:22.000 is why there's like, you know, billions and billions and billions of dollars 765 00:55:22.079 --> 00:55:27.480 every year of DeFi theft that occurs. I think it's like eighty million dollars 766 00:55:27.519 --> 00:55:30.159 a day or something like that of hacks that occur, and a lot of 767 00:55:30.199 --> 00:55:35.800 that comes from poor application design. And yes, you can audit, and 768 00:55:35.920 --> 00:55:38.480 yes you can use quick check and formal methods and these types of things, 769 00:55:38.519 --> 00:55:43.360 and you can certainly get a higher degree of quality, and maybe through static 770 00:55:43.400 --> 00:55:46.000 analysis you can get some good suggestions. But at the end of the day, 771 00:55:46.079 --> 00:55:51.159 if you don't know what you're doing, you're going to get yourself killed. 772 00:55:51.599 --> 00:55:54.320 And so at some point, as you move your boundaries of developer accessibility, 773 00:55:54.639 --> 00:55:59.840 you move to a level where you're actually inviting non productive applications inside this 774 00:56:00.039 --> 00:56:05.360 system, and it's inevitable. You can't stop it. My job as a 775 00:56:05.400 --> 00:56:07.800 tool builder is to try to at least give people as many tools and social 776 00:56:07.840 --> 00:56:15.119 processes like certified applications and testing frameworks and auditors and kind of you know, 777 00:56:15.199 --> 00:56:19.000 quality assurance stuff, DAP stores, these types of things, and we try, 778 00:56:19.159 --> 00:56:22.280 you know, where we can. But all things considered. To see 779 00:56:22.280 --> 00:56:25.719 the progress year by year from twenty twenty one to twenty twenty two with Vassal 780 00:56:25.800 --> 00:56:30.039 to what we achieved in twenty twenty three to where we're at now with plutes 781 00:56:30.079 --> 00:56:34.639 P. Three, it really is impressive, and by every metric transaction volume 782 00:56:34.679 --> 00:56:37.519 and TVL and other things, it's growing the way it should grow. The 783 00:56:37.599 --> 00:56:42.800 problem is just people lie. They say there's no TVL, no DAP activity, 784 00:56:42.840 --> 00:56:45.480 there's no stable coins. There are stable coins do You might not like 785 00:56:45.599 --> 00:56:50.760 JED and USDM and these types of things, but they do exist, and 786 00:56:51.599 --> 00:56:55.519 the foundations and tough negotiations with Circle back and forth. I view it like 787 00:56:55.599 --> 00:57:00.599 Coinbase. Remember everybody's when coinbased, When Coinbase, when coin Base, if 788 00:57:00.599 --> 00:57:04.679 you're remember back in twenty twenty one. There's an inevitability behind it, but 789 00:57:04.719 --> 00:57:08.320 there's also a responsibility in these types of things where you probably don't want Walmart 790 00:57:08.320 --> 00:57:13.000 to come and shut down all the small businesses in your town. So analogously, 791 00:57:13.119 --> 00:57:15.039 maybe just maybe if you bring a circle in, it'd be good to 792 00:57:15.079 --> 00:57:19.039 shore up the smaller, you know, stable coins as well, so they 793 00:57:19.039 --> 00:57:22.880 don't get obliterated by the existence of USDC inside the system, because there are 794 00:57:22.880 --> 00:57:27.239 people who've invested millions of dollars in their time in building that infrastructure up. 795 00:57:27.880 --> 00:57:30.599 And as stable coin's a stable coin, you know, it's as long as 796 00:57:30.639 --> 00:57:34.840 you can find the right bridging and translation of these things that ought to work, 797 00:57:35.360 --> 00:57:38.880 so you know, it is what it is. There's an inevitability behind 798 00:57:38.880 --> 00:57:42.920 it. But I think there's a great impatience where people don't see the price 799 00:57:42.960 --> 00:57:46.679 moving up and so they instantly infer well, if that's the case, it 800 00:57:46.800 --> 00:57:52.800 must mean that it's a dead ecosystem and it's in a great decline. Meanwhile, 801 00:57:52.800 --> 00:57:55.639 we're just about to do the greatest governance upgrade in the history of the 802 00:57:55.679 --> 00:58:00.920 project and probably the history of the industry. We have the best ailability plan. 803 00:58:00.039 --> 00:58:04.199 We have a very vibrant, rich community. When you look at rare 804 00:58:04.280 --> 00:58:07.280 Evo and you look at the Cardono Foundation summit, you look at all the 805 00:58:07.280 --> 00:58:12.519 cool things the communities building, and there's all these cool DAPs and DeFi projects, 806 00:58:12.559 --> 00:58:15.880 but you're all homegrown and they don't have ponzonomics or any of these other 807 00:58:15.960 --> 00:58:20.400 things. It's a cool ecosystem to look at, and it's a fast growing 808 00:58:20.480 --> 00:58:23.000 ecosystem. And then I'm just told again and again on Twitter and by the 809 00:58:23.000 --> 00:58:27.960 cryptomedia it's dead. There's nothing there, And you say, okay, well, 810 00:58:28.199 --> 00:58:30.760 all that stuff doesn't exist. Even bank List was a great example of 811 00:58:30.800 --> 00:58:36.559 this. It's a microcosm of the broader macrocosm. Where they petulantly and arrogantly 812 00:58:36.599 --> 00:58:39.079 say, come kiss the ring and come on our show and explain to us 813 00:58:39.079 --> 00:58:43.519 why it's not a dead ecosystem. I said, okay, well, if 814 00:58:43.559 --> 00:58:45.639 you're really serious about it, why don't you just come to rare evo and 815 00:58:45.679 --> 00:58:50.199 you literally can see all the different projects building, and then what are you 816 00:58:50.239 --> 00:58:52.440 going to do? Go up to them and say, tell us why you 817 00:58:52.480 --> 00:58:55.639 don't exist, tell us why you have no transactions? Tell us, and 818 00:58:55.679 --> 00:59:00.159 they'll be like, but we do exist, we do have try, we 819 00:59:00.199 --> 00:59:02.039 do have people. It's here, it's running. Uh huh uh huh. 820 00:59:02.079 --> 00:59:06.119 Yeah, yeah, but you can't because our thesis is you don't exist. 821 00:59:06.840 --> 00:59:09.199 So what they and that's the issue. It's like you. Then then they 822 00:59:09.280 --> 00:59:13.000 say no to that offer, and they try to say, well, you're 823 00:59:13.039 --> 00:59:15.880 a coward, you're afraid. You just don't want to have the debate. 824 00:59:16.199 --> 00:59:20.639 Guys. I went on a stage eighty five thousand people at web Summit with 825 00:59:21.639 --> 00:59:27.159 what's his name, Ben Ben Kingsley or whatever it is, the guy from 826 00:59:27.159 --> 00:59:31.199 the OC who hates crypto and the thesis of the panel Ben McKinsey. I 827 00:59:31.199 --> 00:59:35.960 think it was. The thesis of the panel was is crypto a scam. 828 00:59:36.599 --> 00:59:39.719 Yeah, okay, so I'm sorry if I did that in the US Commerce 829 00:59:39.840 --> 00:59:45.000 at Congress. I don't think I'm super scared of sitting on a podcast for 830 00:59:45.039 --> 00:59:49.079 an hour or two of these two clowns. No, it's more principles of 831 00:59:49.119 --> 00:59:53.880 saying, are people actually giving us a fair consideration or have they already made 832 00:59:53.920 --> 00:59:59.840 up their mind and they're just looking for evidence to confirm a preconceived notion that 833 01:00:00.119 --> 01:00:02.639 they have or not. And I think that's the biggest issue right now in 834 01:00:02.639 --> 01:00:08.880 marketing is there's already this preconceived notion that's fomented, and Arthur Hayes will throw 835 01:00:08.960 --> 01:00:12.360 his shade at us, or well, Paul will throw shade us. He 836 01:00:12.480 --> 01:00:15.880 just saw that, you know, and they dance around it. But they're 837 01:00:15.880 --> 01:00:20.880 always from three generations ago. Well, Solana went from nothing to where it's 838 01:00:20.880 --> 01:00:24.440 at in six months. Well that's different. What about Ethereum, Well that's 839 01:00:24.480 --> 01:00:30.280 different, guys. Crypto, everything moves super fast here. You're dead today, 840 01:00:30.599 --> 01:00:35.760 big tomorrow, dead again. Rights, It's okay. It's really about 841 01:00:35.760 --> 01:00:38.000 your fundamentals. And the question is do we lose community And the answer is 842 01:00:38.119 --> 01:00:44.119 not usually, And in many cases we develop an immune system and certain projects 843 01:00:44.119 --> 01:00:46.880 that aren't compatible with that immune system, they don't get a good time here, 844 01:00:46.920 --> 01:00:52.280 and they naturally get pushed out. I won't name names. Pictures do 845 01:00:52.400 --> 01:00:59.000 disappear from walls, you know. And that's a good ecosystem. That's a 846 01:00:59.039 --> 01:01:02.320 healthy vibranty system when it has that immune system. And the fact that we 847 01:01:02.440 --> 01:01:07.199 keep growing, we keep gaining, we keep evolving, and we keep challenging 848 01:01:07.280 --> 01:01:10.199 the you know, taking on the biggest challenges and problems. That's a good 849 01:01:10.199 --> 01:01:14.239 indicator that this thing is going to be around in five years, ten years, 850 01:01:14.239 --> 01:01:16.119 and twenty years. It's not dying, it's growing. But then you 851 01:01:16.159 --> 01:01:21.639 get no acknowledgment from cryptomedia from that because they're bought paid for. So on 852 01:01:21.639 --> 01:01:23.280 that note, I was about to ask a follow questions on that bought and 853 01:01:23.280 --> 01:01:28.400 paid for? Is this crypto VCS pulling some strings? You know, we 854 01:01:28.440 --> 01:01:32.039 don't want capital going to Cardinal because we're backing this specific asset or assets, 855 01:01:32.400 --> 01:01:37.000 so we need to frame the narrative. And I don't know which media is 856 01:01:37.039 --> 01:01:42.400 bought and so forth like that. In addition, there's also a natural tribalism 857 01:01:42.960 --> 01:01:45.840 that takes place in crypto because of the financial incentives. So what are your 858 01:01:45.840 --> 01:01:52.440 a BDC MAXI even though you're slow high fees, you still I No, 859 01:01:52.519 --> 01:01:57.199 don't worry about Cardano, don't worry about smart contracts right right? Or is 860 01:01:57.239 --> 01:02:00.000 it all of it above? Right? All the above with these things? 861 01:02:00.559 --> 01:02:04.159 Yeah. I mean people talk their book and they talk their money, and 862 01:02:05.519 --> 01:02:09.360 I can't speculate why a particular VC views them some things the way it does. 863 01:02:09.920 --> 01:02:15.039 I mean, look at the Farcaster investment. They have almost no utilization 864 01:02:15.239 --> 01:02:19.599 or adoption. I'm sure that there's plenty of cool and interesting things in that 865 01:02:19.639 --> 01:02:23.360 project, but there's been several statistics that I've looked at where the daily active 866 01:02:23.440 --> 01:02:29.960 user count other things really don't justify a multi billion dollar valuation for a social 867 01:02:30.000 --> 01:02:32.880 network. Yet they got a very significant investment. I think it was from 868 01:02:32.920 --> 01:02:37.440 A sixteen and Z. So why are they doing that? Well, the 869 01:02:37.480 --> 01:02:42.280 more cynical people say, well, it's because of tokenomics. You know, 870 01:02:42.360 --> 01:02:45.519 they get access to something and they make quite a bit of money. Less 871 01:02:45.519 --> 01:02:49.840 cynical people say maybe they're investing in the future and they think they're going to 872 01:02:49.880 --> 01:02:53.760 get the hockey stick, whatever have you. There's no rationality behind the valuations 873 01:02:53.760 --> 01:02:59.440 and inflows and outflows of things you can't chase the price. That's something I've 874 01:02:59.519 --> 01:03:05.000 learned from being in the cryptocurrency industry for twelve years. Then markets are just 875 01:03:05.039 --> 01:03:07.719 going to do what they do and you can't predict them. You can't chase 876 01:03:07.760 --> 01:03:12.519 them, and you can't wake up and do some magical kabuki, and then 877 01:03:12.559 --> 01:03:15.199 suddenly you've doubled the price or tripled the price. Like there's no greater example 878 01:03:15.239 --> 01:03:20.679 of that than when Stellar burnt a gargantuan pile of coins. They destroyed like 879 01:03:21.039 --> 01:03:24.320 ten years of runway for their foundation, burnt all those tokens and they got 880 01:03:24.320 --> 01:03:28.119 a little blip and the market took all of it. So you see all 881 01:03:28.119 --> 01:03:31.000 these people burn aid to do this. Do that first there's nothing to burn. 882 01:03:31.360 --> 01:03:36.719 And then second, even if you could, it doesn't really do anything 883 01:03:36.719 --> 01:03:39.360 for you because the markets do what they do and you can't predict them. 884 01:03:39.480 --> 01:03:42.679 So what you got to do is you go put your nose to the grindstone 885 01:03:42.679 --> 01:03:46.559 and say, are we producing real value? Are we building real things? 886 01:03:46.679 --> 01:03:52.280 I don't care if we're in the club that vcs love or the media loves 887 01:03:52.320 --> 01:03:55.079 for these types of things. Is this useful to the country of Argentina? 888 01:03:55.320 --> 01:03:59.480 Is this useful for all the people in Kenya getting their loans? Is this 889 01:03:59.559 --> 01:04:03.239 useful for Midnight and its ability to offer computational privacy to people? Is this 890 01:04:03.360 --> 01:04:09.840 useful for identity systems that can basically give credit scores to millions of unbanked people, 891 01:04:09.960 --> 01:04:14.159 or put academic credentials on a blockchain? You know? Is this useful 892 01:04:14.239 --> 01:04:17.400 for my synthetic biology companies where I have track and trace glowing plants? You 893 01:04:17.440 --> 01:04:20.880 know? Is it useful? Does it solve real problems? And if it 894 01:04:20.960 --> 01:04:25.400 does, it has a right to exist, and it's going to be here 895 01:04:25.400 --> 01:04:30.480 in five years or ten years or fifteen years. The markets eventually will recede 896 01:04:30.480 --> 01:04:32.800 from this madness that they have, and eventually it's going to pick the right 897 01:04:32.840 --> 01:04:36.840 winners and losers like it did with Amazon versus pets dot Com and you know 898 01:04:36.880 --> 01:04:41.159 these other things. So on that note, you know, in regards to 899 01:04:41.440 --> 01:04:44.880 narratives and media and so forth, I saw you put out a poll regarding 900 01:04:45.079 --> 01:04:49.880 card potentially Cardano treasury being used to create a non for profit, not not 901 01:04:50.079 --> 01:04:55.920 for profit media now that fairly reports crypto news across the industry. Tell us 902 01:04:55.920 --> 01:04:59.239 about what you're thinking there? Well, you know, I just like pulling 903 01:04:59.320 --> 01:05:00.760 people. You know, it's always funny. The minute you put up a 904 01:05:00.760 --> 01:05:03.639 poll, people say, I guess they're doing that, and then they instantly 905 01:05:03.679 --> 01:05:09.440 start criticizing. You start the conversation. You know, I thought about buying 906 01:05:09.639 --> 01:05:14.400 coin disk a few years back, and I and we eventually got their data 907 01:05:14.480 --> 01:05:18.360 room, and we thought that they were wildly optimistic about their their value. 908 01:05:18.400 --> 01:05:23.400 And obviously, whenever you're so far off on a meeting of minds, you 909 01:05:23.440 --> 01:05:28.199 don't pursue it. But and of course they one of their podcasters mocked me 910 01:05:28.360 --> 01:05:34.199 for that, for that acquisition. But okay, but anyway, why because 911 01:05:34.280 --> 01:05:38.559 I thought it had been really cool to actually run a fair media organization. 912 01:05:38.960 --> 01:05:42.519 See, here's the thing. It's like we did EDI and even though we 913 01:05:42.599 --> 01:05:46.000 started it, it's at an academic institution, it's neutral, and there's already 914 01:05:46.039 --> 01:05:49.960 a federation of entities forming around it to start talking around how do you fairly 915 01:05:49.960 --> 01:05:57.559 measure a blockchain? The news should not be in facts should not be partisan 916 01:05:57.679 --> 01:06:00.800 concerns. But we're so fucked up from lim in a world of hyper propaganda 917 01:06:00.880 --> 01:06:08.199 and partisanship that we automatically believe it's not possible to be objective. Guys, 918 01:06:08.360 --> 01:06:13.679 When we report the temperature when we say it's thirty degrees outside, it's thirty 919 01:06:13.719 --> 01:06:17.159 degrees or not in a specific place is specific time. Okay, it's a 920 01:06:17.199 --> 01:06:23.039 fact that happened. George Washington was President of the United States. It happened. 921 01:06:23.079 --> 01:06:26.960 It's a fact. It should not be partisan. We should be able 922 01:06:27.000 --> 01:06:30.599 to converge to objectivity in these types of things. So here's the thing. 923 01:06:30.639 --> 01:06:35.960 You create veracity markets, so marketplaces for truth. So they're called prediction markets. 924 01:06:36.039 --> 01:06:41.320 Robin Hansen did foundational work there. You create veracity bonds that if somebody 925 01:06:41.320 --> 01:06:45.320 publishes a story and if it turns out not to be true, they have 926 01:06:45.440 --> 01:06:47.559 a bond that's connected to the story, they lose their money. So you 927 01:06:47.599 --> 01:06:51.920 create marketplaces for fact checking in these types of things, you crowdsource knowledge. 928 01:06:51.920 --> 01:06:56.320 That's what Oracle systems are doing. We see them all the time, and 929 01:06:56.360 --> 01:07:00.159 apparently those are nonpartisan. But we just can't do it when news involved use 930 01:07:00.199 --> 01:07:05.119 AI summarization. Grock is experimenting with this on Twitter, where you take a 931 01:07:05.159 --> 01:07:09.320 plurality of different things that people do, and so you can put open source 932 01:07:09.440 --> 01:07:14.639 lolms to inject these types of things, and then you do allow editorialization to 933 01:07:14.679 --> 01:07:17.960 occur by balancing things so you know you do is you say, okay, 934 01:07:18.000 --> 01:07:24.119 well let's go to all the major crypto projects and let them every month write 935 01:07:24.119 --> 01:07:29.760 an article about their ecosystem. Now, of course that's not an objective article. 936 01:07:29.760 --> 01:07:31.920 It's subjective because it's written from the perspective. But you know, it's 937 01:07:31.920 --> 01:07:35.360 a salon article written by and for the salon of people, and it gives 938 01:07:35.400 --> 01:07:42.480 them a showcase of what their ecosystem is about. And if people challenge those 939 01:07:42.519 --> 01:07:45.920 types of things, then you invite people on the other side wright op eds 940 01:07:46.000 --> 01:07:49.320 criticizing that or saying that there's stuff there. And what you do is you 941 01:07:49.360 --> 01:07:54.599 create a dialogue, okay, and people start creating content around that, so 942 01:07:54.639 --> 01:07:58.480 you can easily curate this entire thing as a doubt. And if you, 943 01:07:58.880 --> 01:08:01.480 the reader are interested in the truth of something, you can put a bounty 944 01:08:01.639 --> 01:08:04.559 up so you can say, you know, I because one of the things 945 01:08:04.559 --> 01:08:06.760 I always bothered me. I'll give you a great example. I live out 946 01:08:06.760 --> 01:08:13.000 here in Colorado and there was a fast food restaurant where somebody drove a truck 947 01:08:13.480 --> 01:08:16.920 into the restaurant and I happened to drive by the restaurant shortly after it happened. 948 01:08:16.960 --> 01:08:20.319 So I was looking as like that pickup truck should not be in that 949 01:08:20.439 --> 01:08:25.359 McDonald's. That doesn't make any sense. So they wrote an article about it, 950 01:08:25.359 --> 01:08:27.880 and it's in the papers somewhere, but I never got a follow up 951 01:08:27.960 --> 01:08:30.640 article, so I never really found out what happened to the driver. You 952 01:08:30.680 --> 01:08:35.079 know, why did he drive into the McDonald's. Was it alcohol or drugs 953 01:08:35.239 --> 01:08:40.000 or lost attention or had a heart attack or you know what happened? And 954 01:08:40.760 --> 01:08:43.880 you know, did the restaurant go out of business or these things? Because 955 01:08:43.880 --> 01:08:46.880 it changed ownership after it happened, became something else. So it was there 956 01:08:46.920 --> 01:08:50.399 was so many open questions there. Well, if I had the ability to 957 01:08:50.439 --> 01:08:54.359 put a truth bounty up, I could actually put it up there and say, 958 01:08:54.520 --> 01:08:57.319 hey, this story, read a follow up story on what happened with 959 01:08:57.399 --> 01:09:00.319 that. Just that's something so simple, right, yeah, but it's so 960 01:09:00.520 --> 01:09:05.439 powerful because then things never die. Could you imagine the bounties that would be 961 01:09:05.439 --> 01:09:10.920 put up for the Epstein story. Keep it going, keep it going, 962 01:09:11.119 --> 01:09:13.840 you know, keep the eyeballs going, keep people looking at it. Maybe 963 01:09:13.920 --> 01:09:17.000 just maybe we're interested in that client list. It's Eric Winstee calls it anti 964 01:09:17.079 --> 01:09:23.479 interesting. So ordinarily, when markets are fair and free, every person in 965 01:09:23.520 --> 01:09:26.079 the world would be trying to write a story about this, because you talk 966 01:09:26.119 --> 01:09:30.239 about some of the wealthiest, most powerful people in the world doing despicable, 967 01:09:30.319 --> 01:09:35.119 terrible things with kids. Do you think about the effect of publishing something. 968 01:09:35.319 --> 01:09:41.279 You would get more clicks and more advertising than you've ever seen in your life. 969 01:09:41.439 --> 01:09:44.279 So why don't they do it? Because those people also happen to own 970 01:09:44.319 --> 01:09:47.720 the organizations and they prevent anybody from writing stories about it. Well, if 971 01:09:47.720 --> 01:09:53.880 you have to centralize media, you can't stop it because the inputs of the 972 01:09:53.920 --> 01:09:58.600 system are done bottom up. So people can put a veracity bond in when 973 01:09:58.640 --> 01:10:01.640 they make an assertion, can put a bounty to find something. You can 974 01:10:01.760 --> 01:10:05.600 use prediction markets the way the likeliness of something that happens, and people can 975 01:10:05.640 --> 01:10:12.520 make bets on outcomes or these types of things. You can use AI summarization 976 01:10:13.279 --> 01:10:15.840 and you can balance it amongst different political persuasions. And then you use the 977 01:10:15.920 --> 01:10:20.439 editorial process and you just invite people to have a dialogue and a conversation and 978 01:10:20.840 --> 01:10:28.159 you create a comments for news to come through, and over time it eventually 979 01:10:28.319 --> 01:10:35.119 converges to a mechanism to get to a pretty objective reality. Now you create 980 01:10:35.199 --> 01:10:41.239 that who will criticize it. Two groups of people, the group of people 981 01:10:41.359 --> 01:10:45.640 that don't like the media that's being written about them, fairly or unfairly, 982 01:10:45.000 --> 01:10:47.840 and the other group of people is the group of people you're firing with a 983 01:10:47.880 --> 01:10:51.199 system like this. So the mainstream media will say, well, that will 984 01:10:51.199 --> 01:10:57.079 be a cess pool for misinformation. The existence of that will be a fundamental 985 01:10:57.119 --> 01:11:00.800 threat to our democracy and the force of state of democracy, a fair and 986 01:11:00.880 --> 01:11:04.079 balanced mainstream media. In other words, we've lost our monopoly on truth. 987 01:11:04.119 --> 01:11:09.359 We can't possibly allow such a thing to exist, and it is dangerous. 988 01:11:09.359 --> 01:11:13.000 You're going to go back to elon Musk. He had fifty six billion dollar 989 01:11:13.119 --> 01:11:16.079 pay package, and the politics worked in a certain direction, and lo and 990 01:11:16.119 --> 01:11:20.359 behold, one shareholder with nine shares could convince a single judge in Delaware to 991 01:11:20.399 --> 01:11:26.520 overturn one hundred plus years of business precedent and overrule the will of the shareholders 992 01:11:26.520 --> 01:11:30.239 and the board and strip him of money he made. By the way, 993 01:11:30.359 --> 01:11:33.560 Norwegian Sovereign Wealth Fund, who's voting against must pay package, Are you going 994 01:11:33.600 --> 01:11:36.640 to give back the ten x that you made from your position on Tesla? 995 01:11:38.560 --> 01:11:41.880 Because he kind of did take it from a fifty billion dollar company to a 996 01:11:41.880 --> 01:11:45.560 trillion dollar company. That was the deal, and he gets five percent. 997 01:11:45.439 --> 01:11:48.319 I take that deal. I mean Tony, if I called Jeb say, 998 01:11:48.359 --> 01:11:50.800 if I make you a trillion dollars, will you give me five percent? 999 01:11:53.119 --> 01:11:57.840 Yeah, most people take that deal. It's a good deal, and he 1000 01:11:57.920 --> 01:12:00.199 did. And he's one of a few people allow to ever have done that. 1001 01:12:01.000 --> 01:12:03.720 So it bollowed us too much. We can't pay them. Well, 1002 01:12:04.119 --> 01:12:10.199 the shareholders alread approved it. Why do they do this because of politics? 1003 01:12:10.399 --> 01:12:15.000 He's being punished, you know. SpaceX is another example. There's this immigration 1004 01:12:15.119 --> 01:12:20.359 lawsuit with the DOJ brought where SpaceX doesn't want to hire asylum seekers and people 1005 01:12:20.840 --> 01:12:26.520 who aren't citizens of the United States. Well, hang on a second here. 1006 01:12:26.560 --> 01:12:29.359 To have a security clearance, you need to be a US citizen. 1007 01:12:29.960 --> 01:12:35.119 SpaceX launches spy satellites. SpaceX deals with classified technology on a daily basis. 1008 01:12:35.560 --> 01:12:40.319 So the Department of Justice is saying, well, even though the Department of 1009 01:12:40.319 --> 01:12:44.800 Defense and the intelligence community is telling you that your employees have to have this 1010 01:12:44.880 --> 01:12:49.560 criteria, hire people who could never meet that eligibility. So what does SpaceX 1011 01:12:49.600 --> 01:12:53.840 do do They just sweep the floors. You go hire this engineer and they're 1012 01:12:53.880 --> 01:12:56.800 not allowed to read anything or look at anything because they can't get the clearance 1013 01:12:56.800 --> 01:12:59.359 for it, so they don't hire them, and then suddenly they have a 1014 01:12:59.359 --> 01:13:04.039 discrimination lawsuit. Huh yeah, I wonder why they're bringing such a thing. 1015 01:13:04.279 --> 01:13:09.199 Battery power cars. The White House has a convention on battery powered Cars for 1016 01:13:09.479 --> 01:13:13.439 making battery power cars in America. I think Tesla makes like ninety percent of 1017 01:13:13.479 --> 01:13:16.800 all the battery power cars in America. They weren't invited. It's crazy, 1018 01:13:16.800 --> 01:13:21.520 you know, because the politics don't align, and a lot of the stems 1019 01:13:21.560 --> 01:13:27.560 from the purchase of Twitter, because they went from a controlled source of media 1020 01:13:28.359 --> 01:13:32.520 to an uncontrolled source of media, and that is the single biggest threat to 1021 01:13:32.600 --> 01:13:38.560 the establishment. So we do have to be careful as an ecosystem in embracing 1022 01:13:39.239 --> 01:13:42.880 a news now because if we're too good at it, it actually becomes a 1023 01:13:43.039 --> 01:13:46.119 replacement for how people get their news, not just in the cryptocurrency space, 1024 01:13:46.159 --> 01:13:51.000 but more broadly across many spaces. So that is something that even if there 1025 01:13:51.079 --> 01:13:55.399 is a desire, we have to do it a very considered and deliberate way 1026 01:13:55.439 --> 01:14:00.079 because it'll put a big red target on the back of the cardinal ecosystem and 1027 01:14:00.079 --> 01:14:04.399 in ways that we currently haven't experienced. It's a threat to power structures when 1028 01:14:04.399 --> 01:14:08.680 they no longer have a monopoly on truth, and anybody who tries to chipway 1029 01:14:08.680 --> 01:14:12.720 at that monopoly, they really do not do well long term. You see 1030 01:14:12.800 --> 01:14:17.399 Julian Assange and you know all these other people. Alternative preveyers of information seldom 1031 01:14:17.439 --> 01:14:23.000 survive long Charles, I want to get your thoughts on meme coins. We 1032 01:14:23.079 --> 01:14:26.680 talked a bit about it with Snack. I have a love hate relationship with 1033 01:14:26.760 --> 01:14:30.079 meme coins. On one hand, it's amazing to see the crowdsourcing and culture 1034 01:14:30.119 --> 01:14:33.800 and the blockchain and all these things. But on the other other hand, 1035 01:14:33.800 --> 01:14:39.119 they're so risky and volatile. Don't get me wrong, there are certain meme 1036 01:14:39.159 --> 01:14:44.600 coins that have a track record liquidity. They've been around multiple bull market and 1037 01:14:44.600 --> 01:14:46.640 bear market cycles. What are your thoughts on it? And you know, 1038 01:14:46.760 --> 01:14:50.640 maybe you have the same sentiment. I don't understand them. You know, 1039 01:14:50.720 --> 01:14:55.800 it's but I'm not hostile to them. You know, I've been in space 1040 01:14:55.840 --> 01:14:59.279 for twelve years and there's a lot of things that I've seen in this industry. 1041 01:14:59.279 --> 01:15:02.760 I just can stand like EOS raises four billion dollars and then they say 1042 01:15:02.800 --> 01:15:08.159 they have no fiduciary obligation through ecosystem. They keep the money settle with the 1043 01:15:08.199 --> 01:15:13.720 SEC and now they're just living off that four billion dollars they raised. I 1044 01:15:14.039 --> 01:15:15.560 got so angry when that settle a came. But that was the only time 1045 01:15:15.560 --> 01:15:20.199 in my life I ever threw my laptop and it because I was there. 1046 01:15:20.319 --> 01:15:26.159 I saw them take over Consensus and have the fucking billboard with eos and these 1047 01:15:26.159 --> 01:15:29.479 other things, and it was just extraordinary to me. And we've all forgotten 1048 01:15:29.479 --> 01:15:30.720 about it as an industry. You know, turned the page have to move 1049 01:15:30.800 --> 01:15:35.720 on certain exchanges listed bitconnect and I called them out. We never got listed 1050 01:15:35.720 --> 01:15:41.359 on those exchanges and it took years to get listed because of that. There's 1051 01:15:41.359 --> 01:15:44.840 no consequences for it. But yet CZ's the one who goes to prison for 1052 01:15:44.960 --> 01:15:49.960 compliance issues because Elizabeth Warren's angry with them. Okay, great, huh. 1053 01:15:50.600 --> 01:15:55.640 The coin basis one filing. You know, they are allowed to publicly do 1054 01:15:55.680 --> 01:16:00.920 an IPO and SEC says it's perfectly fine. Then the same agency suites them 1055 01:16:00.960 --> 01:16:05.159 for an illegal business model. Yes, okay, maybe you shouldn't allow them 1056 01:16:05.159 --> 01:16:10.079 to do an IPO because they're kind of exposing all those retail investors to like 1057 01:16:10.239 --> 01:16:15.279 illegal equities, right, I don't know. I so mean points are another 1058 01:16:15.319 --> 01:16:18.560 example. I just don't understand. I don't know where the value comes from. 1059 01:16:18.600 --> 01:16:23.119 I don't know why, because yeah, there's a society and a culture, 1060 01:16:24.760 --> 01:16:29.479 but there's not an intention with a lot of people in these ecosystems to 1061 01:16:29.520 --> 01:16:32.159 even be a member of it. The only reason they're in it is to 1062 01:16:32.319 --> 01:16:36.399 profit and leave and then they always look for another one. So it's not 1063 01:16:36.560 --> 01:16:41.119 like I can get doge from a perspective that it seems to be almost like 1064 01:16:41.119 --> 01:16:45.560 a lifestyle or like a culture or something like that. Okay, yeah, 1065 01:16:45.760 --> 01:16:48.359 people collect Pokemon cards and magic and these types of saying. I say, 1066 01:16:48.399 --> 01:16:51.960 I get that, that's like a culture. People like that doge lifestyle. 1067 01:16:53.000 --> 01:16:57.039 They're very committed to their doge you know. Okay, it's kind of a 1068 01:16:57.119 --> 01:17:00.199 religion at this point. Yeah, all right, but dog that you know, 1069 01:17:00.600 --> 01:17:04.239 you know, all this stuff is what is it? I don't understand 1070 01:17:04.279 --> 01:17:08.760 it. And you talk to people, because I've gone to several mean coin 1071 01:17:08.840 --> 01:17:12.239 spaces on X and you say, hey, you know, why are you 1072 01:17:12.279 --> 01:17:15.640 buying this mean coin? And they say, I want to make money? 1073 01:17:15.399 --> 01:17:20.039 Okay, but do the math here? You have to understand that if there's 1074 01:17:20.079 --> 01:17:25.199 one hundred x, where does that hundred x come from? There has to 1075 01:17:25.199 --> 01:17:30.479 be a counterparty who's purchasing, and if that person's motivation is to make money 1076 01:17:30.560 --> 01:17:34.560 to a Ponzi scheme, And if you're in early, you do really well, 1077 01:17:34.560 --> 01:17:38.079 but ninety nine percent of you are going to lose all your money. 1078 01:17:38.119 --> 01:17:44.600 You do understand that it's not really anything new. I mean, Charles Ponzi 1079 01:17:44.640 --> 01:17:46.800 invented it. You know, it's it's been around for a long time. 1080 01:17:47.199 --> 01:17:51.319 So all the power to them, but I do believe that they have a 1081 01:17:51.359 --> 01:17:59.199 strong tendency to devolve into ponzonomics that are super unproductive and there's no circular economy 1082 01:17:59.720 --> 01:18:02.920 Like you know, bats is a perfect economy because you have a situation where 1083 01:18:03.399 --> 01:18:09.000 tokens are given to you for sharing, and then the process of sharing creates 1084 01:18:09.000 --> 01:18:13.359 a channel for advertisers to buy to get your eyeballs. So you are the 1085 01:18:13.439 --> 01:18:16.960 product and it's a medium to make you that product. But that's every single 1086 01:18:17.000 --> 01:18:21.439 advertising model and web two whether it be Google or Facebook or so forth. 1087 01:18:21.720 --> 01:18:26.359 You get the product for free. The only difference between Brave and the other 1088 01:18:26.399 --> 01:18:30.079 guys is that they're cutting you into the action. And because there's an incentive 1089 01:18:30.079 --> 01:18:33.359 for a person to buy the token to get ads, you have a circular 1090 01:18:33.399 --> 01:18:39.439 economy inside this system. So so okay, that makes sense to me. 1091 01:18:39.960 --> 01:18:44.680 This attention token, and there's a reason why it's issued, and there's a 1092 01:18:44.720 --> 01:18:49.600 reason why it's consumed, and it's completely irrespective of the price of the underlying 1093 01:18:49.640 --> 01:18:54.239 asset. If I'm an advertiser, I don't care if the token's at price 1094 01:18:54.319 --> 01:18:57.720 fifty or price one hundred. I'm just going to buy it for what it 1095 01:18:57.800 --> 01:19:01.720 is and as much units as I need, and that's my price of advertising. 1096 01:19:02.760 --> 01:19:06.199 Okay, So that makes sense when you have a mean coin, the 1097 01:19:06.239 --> 01:19:11.000 person buying off of your one hundred x to divest you so you can realize 1098 01:19:11.000 --> 01:19:15.439 that value. They're not getting anything other than a belief that it's going to 1099 01:19:15.479 --> 01:19:18.600 have another one hundred X. And how many times can you do that before 1100 01:19:18.640 --> 01:19:24.319 the system goes down catastrophically. And once it goes down catastrophically, who covers 1101 01:19:24.319 --> 01:19:27.840 the losses? No one, So you're entering into a game where ninety nine 1102 01:19:27.840 --> 01:19:31.640 percent of the people lose all their money. There's no circular economy, there's 1103 01:19:31.720 --> 01:19:36.600 no natural consumption or utility inside that system. So that's my big issue with 1104 01:19:36.720 --> 01:19:41.560 mean coins is the best case scenario, they're kind of clubs, and they're 1105 01:19:41.640 --> 01:19:45.680 social groups, and people are there to participate in a culture, and I 1106 01:19:45.760 --> 01:19:48.159 get that, and I understand that, and if they're having fun with it, 1107 01:19:48.359 --> 01:19:51.880 who the fuck is us to say that that's a problem. You know, 1108 01:19:51.920 --> 01:19:56.760 it's like Baldar's Gate three. I think at this point has like sixty 1109 01:19:56.960 --> 01:20:00.319 thousand years of playtime or something amongst the communities, the single biggest waste of 1110 01:20:00.319 --> 01:20:06.640 productivity amongst white collar professionals and certain age demographics, says of for twenty twenty 1111 01:20:06.720 --> 01:20:11.159 three. Great, it's not our business to say whether that was a good 1112 01:20:11.199 --> 01:20:15.079 thing or a bad thing. On the other hand, if it's not about 1113 01:20:15.119 --> 01:20:19.479 community and culture, it's just about profit return. I can't endorse a system 1114 01:20:19.560 --> 01:20:25.319 where ninety nine percent of people lose all their money for some insiders to dump 1115 01:20:25.359 --> 01:20:29.640 on them and walk away from it doesn't make any sense to me. Yeah, 1116 01:20:29.680 --> 01:20:32.439 final question herefore, I let you go to Charles crypto regulations. I 1117 01:20:32.479 --> 01:20:38.439 mean, we've seen an incredible one pint eighty from the government, you know, 1118 01:20:38.479 --> 01:20:42.840 in getting cryptoregulations through repeal ABSAB one two one in the House and Senate 1119 01:20:42.920 --> 01:20:47.279 fit twenty one out of the House Democrats sighting with Republicans Donald Trump coming out 1120 01:20:47.279 --> 01:20:51.600 and supporting crypto, it seems like crypto is going to be have an impact 1121 01:20:51.600 --> 01:20:56.600 on elections coming up. You know this this cycle. What are your thoughts 1122 01:20:56.600 --> 01:21:00.640 and could we see that the FIT twenty one make it through the this year 1123 01:21:00.720 --> 01:21:03.000 or next year? Well, there's no companion bill so now, and this 1124 01:21:03.119 --> 01:21:06.760 really bothered me. I reached out to some senators who shall remain nameless, 1125 01:21:06.800 --> 01:21:11.600 and I was like, why could we not retrofit X, Y and Z 1126 01:21:11.800 --> 01:21:15.800 to be the companion bill, because basically that guarantees that FIT twenty one can't 1127 01:21:15.880 --> 01:21:21.439 get in this legislative session through and that was by design. So yes, 1128 01:21:23.039 --> 01:21:27.920 it was very impressive that many Democrats broke rank in the House. But the 1129 01:21:27.960 --> 01:21:33.319 parliamentary procedures prevent this from actually becoming law this year, which is sad because 1130 01:21:33.359 --> 01:21:38.000 it's such a simple law all things considered. It's a very common sense, 1131 01:21:38.039 --> 01:21:42.119 reasonable framework. So I'll go to DC and you know, we'll talk to 1132 01:21:42.199 --> 01:21:45.399 some people and we'll see if there's anything we can do to put our finger 1133 01:21:45.439 --> 01:21:48.560 on the scale. But you know, we've been talking to politicians since twenty 1134 01:21:48.640 --> 01:21:54.159 twenty two. You know, our first engagement was with the Financial Linovation Act 1135 01:21:54.640 --> 01:21:59.640 Senator Lumis's bill and Julibrand's bill very similar to FIT twenty one, and went 1136 01:21:59.640 --> 01:22:04.880 nowhere because of FTX and Luna. So why is there a sudden interest. 1137 01:22:05.000 --> 01:22:10.720 It's very simple and very cynical. There's more than fifty million Americans. I've 1138 01:22:10.720 --> 01:22:14.039 seen countsil all the way up to ninety three million Americans who hold crypto. 1139 01:22:14.520 --> 01:22:16.960 Most are under the age of thirty, and most are liberal. And if 1140 01:22:17.000 --> 01:22:21.319 you're Joe Biden and you're sitting here staring at a very very close twenty twenty 1141 01:22:21.359 --> 01:22:27.920 four election, if you're seen as the person destroying the gains of liberal young 1142 01:22:27.960 --> 01:22:30.880 people, they might get radicalized and mobilized because you've just cost the money. 1143 01:22:31.720 --> 01:22:35.000 His party is the party of Everything's free. You know, your student loans 1144 01:22:35.039 --> 01:22:39.319 get canceled, and this is an entitlement, and this is an entitlement, 1145 01:22:39.319 --> 01:22:41.800 and this is you deserve this, and you deserve this, and here's your 1146 01:22:41.800 --> 01:22:46.279 handout and your Obama phone and these types of things. You know, and 1147 01:22:46.560 --> 01:22:49.520 you don't want to be the party of take ee taki. And so if 1148 01:22:49.560 --> 01:22:54.840 you go and person's got ten thousand dollars in crypto and then suddenly the sec 1149 01:22:54.880 --> 01:22:59.000 shows up and destroys all their gains. They're going to hold that very personally 1150 01:22:59.000 --> 01:23:02.840 and get very angry at Joe Biden. So what the Democrats are doing is 1151 01:23:02.920 --> 01:23:08.000 pretending like they didn't start a war on crypto. You know, they started 1152 01:23:08.000 --> 01:23:11.920 Operation Choke point two point zero. Don't fucking tell me that was the Trump 1153 01:23:11.920 --> 01:23:15.600 administration. There were certainly people in the Trump administration, like Secretary Amnusi, 1154 01:23:15.720 --> 01:23:19.960 for example, who was not a pro crypto person, But there wasn't a 1155 01:23:20.039 --> 01:23:28.279 coordinated all of government response where the administrative agencies systematically sued every single exchange and 1156 01:23:28.359 --> 01:23:32.199 started going after DeFi and created anti clarity and reverse things like the Hindman ruling 1157 01:23:32.279 --> 01:23:38.119 or other things like that. That just didn't exist during the Trump administration. 1158 01:23:38.239 --> 01:23:42.960 It was more an annoyance and a passive disdain, and the President wasn't even 1159 01:23:42.960 --> 01:23:45.720 aware of it. Trump really didn't understand crypto at all. Now he does 1160 01:23:45.760 --> 01:23:48.760 because he knows he can make money from it. He's going to be pro 1161 01:23:48.800 --> 01:23:53.399 crypto if anything, because it's transactional for him. By being pro crypto, 1162 01:23:53.479 --> 01:23:57.159 he will raise tens of millions of dollars. He'll make money for Truth Social 1163 01:23:57.239 --> 01:24:00.880 and he'll sell garbage NFTs it's doing that, he'll make tens of millions of 1164 01:24:00.880 --> 01:24:05.199 dollars. And Trump likes anything that impersonally enriches him. That is the one 1165 01:24:05.239 --> 01:24:10.000 guarantee that is always true about Trump is if it makes him money, he 1166 01:24:10.119 --> 01:24:14.720 probably likes it. And crypto is the ultimate mcguffin to invent money out of 1167 01:24:14.760 --> 01:24:17.319 thin air for Trump. So he's going to be very pro crypto in the 1168 01:24:17.359 --> 01:24:23.159 policy because he wants to keep that cash cow. And Vivic Ramaswami he does. 1169 01:24:23.800 --> 01:24:27.479 You know, he's part of Trump's campaign, He's part of Trump's infrastructure. 1170 01:24:27.680 --> 01:24:30.560 He's super pro crypto. There's a strong possibility that Trump was elected, 1171 01:24:30.600 --> 01:24:36.439 he'd be the Treasury secretary, so he's definitely pushing pro crypto policy behind the 1172 01:24:36.439 --> 01:24:41.159 scenes. So I can see something like a FIT twenty one passing under a 1173 01:24:41.199 --> 01:24:45.680 Trump administration. I do believe that if Biden is re elected, he will 1174 01:24:45.800 --> 01:24:50.600 embrace and empower Gensler like people to accelerate the war on crypto because there's no 1175 01:24:50.680 --> 01:24:57.079 political consequences at that point, and we will see a dramatic damage to the 1176 01:24:57.199 --> 01:25:01.600 US cryptocurrency industry, every single Layer one be sued, every single US exchange 1177 01:25:01.640 --> 01:25:06.439 will likely be shut down or under extreme scrutiny, and no cryptocurrency legislation will 1178 01:25:06.439 --> 01:25:13.239 pass. Because if this administration wanted to, it could have passed crypto legislation 1179 01:25:13.319 --> 01:25:16.840 in twenty twenty two. It could have passed it twenty twenty three. When 1180 01:25:16.880 --> 01:25:20.239 FIT twenty one was coming in the White House could have called Chuck Schumer and 1181 01:25:20.279 --> 01:25:25.119 said, how do we figure out to get a bipartisan companion bill and get 1182 01:25:25.119 --> 01:25:29.319 these things done. They didn't care to do that. So if they put 1183 01:25:29.359 --> 01:25:32.479 the people in power that are suing everybody, they're calling the banks and telling 1184 01:25:32.520 --> 01:25:40.560 them to unbank cryptocurrency companies, they're writing their own people are writing documents basically 1185 01:25:40.560 --> 01:25:45.159 seeing cryptocurrencies like rat poison and it's pointless and has no utility, and they 1186 01:25:45.159 --> 01:25:49.600 are not participating in the legislative process, in many cases offuscating it. Like 1187 01:25:49.680 --> 01:25:56.560 when he vetoed SAB one twenty one's repeal, even though sixty Senators voted on 1188 01:25:56.640 --> 01:26:00.560 it, including Democrats. You can't with a straight if you're a Democrat look 1189 01:26:00.600 --> 01:26:05.479 at me and say this administration is giving crypto a fair shake. Also they 1190 01:26:05.520 --> 01:26:10.640 lie when they say come in and register, and it's just mass non compliance. 1191 01:26:11.960 --> 01:26:15.520 Well, Coinbase tried to come in and register and you ghosted them and 1192 01:26:15.560 --> 01:26:18.439 sued them, you know, so don't lie to me. And it's a 1193 01:26:18.479 --> 01:26:25.119 lie to say this. You have commissioners telling the general public that it's not 1194 01:26:25.199 --> 01:26:29.560 possible to comply. The people who are actually on the commission are saying these 1195 01:26:29.600 --> 01:26:33.199 types of things, you know, and that's just it's so insulting to our 1196 01:26:33.239 --> 01:26:38.720 intelligence. And then finally a framework comes out to actually clearly articulate what the 1197 01:26:38.800 --> 01:26:42.680 SEC's role is and what the CFTC's role is, and to create a construct 1198 01:26:42.680 --> 01:26:46.359 that the SEC and the CFTC work together on to handle that. And you 1199 01:26:46.399 --> 01:26:50.600 have the chairman come out and say this is harmful to everybody, because apparently 1200 01:26:50.640 --> 01:26:55.159 living in a state of paranoia, fear, and ambiguity is a better state 1201 01:26:55.159 --> 01:27:00.479 of affairs. This is completely at the throne of Biden's completely responsible for it. 1202 01:27:00.720 --> 01:27:05.000 He hired the people, he appointed, these people, he established the 1203 01:27:05.000 --> 01:27:09.680 policy. I'm sorry. The buck stops at the president, and the president 1204 01:27:09.760 --> 01:27:13.680 has the power to put his foot down on the table and on the floor 1205 01:27:13.720 --> 01:27:17.239 and say, look, guys, this is what we're going to do and 1206 01:27:17.359 --> 01:27:20.159 presidents have done that. You had Kennedy say we're going to go to the 1207 01:27:20.199 --> 01:27:24.920 moon. You had Bill Clinton say we're going to do or balance the budget, 1208 01:27:25.039 --> 01:27:29.279 and he did. You know, they It's sometimes very hard to do 1209 01:27:29.359 --> 01:27:31.439 it, and it takes a lot of political capital. Obama with the Affordable 1210 01:27:31.479 --> 01:27:35.479 Care Act he never quite recovered from the political blow that he took from the 1211 01:27:35.560 --> 01:27:41.119 ACA, but he did it. He put his entire political infrastructure on the 1212 01:27:41.159 --> 01:27:45.119 table for it. So Biden easily could go out there and say, it's 1213 01:27:45.199 --> 01:27:48.199 madness, what's going on. We're going to end the ambiguity. Come on 1214 01:27:48.279 --> 01:27:53.880 in, let's talk about FIT twenty one and FIA and these other things. 1215 01:27:53.920 --> 01:27:57.920 And there's plenty of Democrats who offer to work with him. Rokannah from the 1216 01:27:57.960 --> 01:28:01.560 Congress. Senator White was another one who offered to work with him. A 1217 01:28:01.560 --> 01:28:04.840 lot of moderate Democrats were coming in, but no, there's just one who 1218 01:28:04.920 --> 01:28:09.560 really really hates it, Senator Elizabeth Warren. And the reason we're in this 1219 01:28:09.640 --> 01:28:13.600 mess is she dropped out of the race in twenty twenty with an agreement that 1220 01:28:13.640 --> 01:28:17.119 she would run domestic fiscal policy for Joe Biden. That was the detante that 1221 01:28:17.720 --> 01:28:21.319 they formed, so she got to pick all the people that right now run 1222 01:28:21.359 --> 01:28:26.680 the Treasury Department. So one senator was given carte blanche. They will basically 1223 01:28:26.760 --> 01:28:30.720 run rough shop over our entire industry, which is just a horrendous situation and 1224 01:28:31.399 --> 01:28:36.640 it's shameful. But that's why, maybe just maybe the most qualified person in 1225 01:28:36.680 --> 01:28:41.399 the United States to run the country isn't an eighty three year old person's showing 1226 01:28:41.399 --> 01:28:46.239 signs of dementia who handed Afghanistan back to the Taliban and sometimes forgets that he's 1227 01:28:46.239 --> 01:28:49.359 not a senator. You know, maybe, just maybe we should have some 1228 01:28:49.399 --> 01:28:54.520 political diversity. I was really hopeful with RFK, you know, and he 1229 01:28:54.600 --> 01:28:58.159 was running as a Democrat. I said, well, okay, you know, 1230 01:28:58.279 --> 01:29:00.359 I'm not really a huge Trump fan. We've been there, we've done 1231 01:29:00.439 --> 01:29:03.399 that. We need to move on as a nation, and so we have 1232 01:29:03.439 --> 01:29:08.560 a breath of fresh air with somebody totally new who's by the way, his 1233 01:29:08.680 --> 01:29:14.439 grandfather was the first chair of the Securities Exchange Commission and wrote the sec bill. 1234 01:29:15.199 --> 01:29:17.079 Okay, been around for a while. He's at a front royal seat 1235 01:29:17.079 --> 01:29:21.680 to American politics since nineteen sixty one. He was told straight up by the 1236 01:29:21.680 --> 01:29:26.880 Democrat Party you could win one hundred percent of the votes in the primary, 1237 01:29:27.039 --> 01:29:29.880 you still will not be the nominee because the super delegates won't pick you. 1238 01:29:31.199 --> 01:29:35.520 So is that democracy and freedom? The party made a decision the most qualified 1239 01:29:35.520 --> 01:29:41.520 person to be the nominee of their party is an eighty three year old guy 1240 01:29:41.600 --> 01:29:45.640 showing signs of dementia, who turned Afghanistan back over to the Taliban with our 1241 01:29:45.680 --> 01:29:49.920 thanks and blessings in our military hardware, and let all our translators get murdered. 1242 01:29:51.319 --> 01:29:56.680 It's just, it's so far beyond the pale what's going on right now, 1243 01:29:56.720 --> 01:29:59.760 because at the end of the day, it's about power, and it's 1244 01:29:59.800 --> 01:30:03.000 a just about the perception of things. And I saw pull the other fifty 1245 01:30:03.079 --> 01:30:08.119 six percent of Democrats voting for Joe Biden are voting because they hate Trump, 1246 01:30:09.960 --> 01:30:13.880 you know, Tony, That's where we're at in America political system. So 1247 01:30:14.199 --> 01:30:17.079 you can't look at crypto separate from this. You have to look at in 1248 01:30:17.199 --> 01:30:21.600 the overall trends and tides of where the macro's at, what's going on with 1249 01:30:21.640 --> 01:30:25.760 Trump, and what's going on with Kennedy, and what's going on with Biden. 1250 01:30:26.439 --> 01:30:31.079 And you know, the Democrats only care about crypto at the moment insofar 1251 01:30:31.359 --> 01:30:35.520 as it has a political cost to them, So if young people are going 1252 01:30:35.560 --> 01:30:39.680 to vote against them, they're pro crypto until after the election's over. But 1253 01:30:39.760 --> 01:30:45.520 as far as I'm concerned, there's absolutely no good faith there. If there 1254 01:30:45.560 --> 01:30:48.560 was good faith, tell Genzler to resign. Yeah, you know, if 1255 01:30:48.600 --> 01:30:51.199 there was good faith there, then we can have a conversation, because at 1256 01:30:51.239 --> 01:30:55.640 least you're saying we're going to restart the things we need a fresh, clean 1257 01:30:55.720 --> 01:30:59.600 slate. You don't get good faith by saying, well, maybe we'll let 1258 01:30:59.600 --> 01:31:02.079 a bill pass every now and then, by the way, a bill repealing 1259 01:31:02.600 --> 01:31:08.159 something that we did wrong SAP one twenty one, right. You know, 1260 01:31:08.359 --> 01:31:12.920 it's just so out there for them to say that, and there's no good 1261 01:31:12.920 --> 01:31:16.319 faith negotiations. It's just the same double speak you come to expect in Washington, 1262 01:31:16.399 --> 01:31:20.960 especially with this particular administration that's made a habit of never answering any questions. 1263 01:31:21.239 --> 01:31:25.760 And I know I'm infending some of your audience because they're Democrats and they 1264 01:31:26.079 --> 01:31:30.239 absolutely love everything from Team Blue and Trump is just literally Orange Hitler to them, 1265 01:31:30.279 --> 01:31:32.840 and he's such a threat to democracy. The mere even utterance of his 1266 01:31:33.000 --> 01:31:36.039 name, like Simon's bad ju jew that will haunt you at night and give 1267 01:31:36.039 --> 01:31:40.520 you turbi answer. But at the end of the day, like I'm keeping 1268 01:31:40.560 --> 01:31:45.800 my comments to crypto, I'm not talking about the broader, you know situation. 1269 01:31:46.479 --> 01:31:50.960 Just in crypto alone, it's very clear there are now differences between the 1270 01:31:51.000 --> 01:31:57.479 political parties. Rank and file Republicans are pro crypto, and the Republican Party 1271 01:31:57.520 --> 01:32:01.199 as a whole would be willing to and has demontrated the ability to pass meaningful, 1272 01:32:01.239 --> 01:32:05.600 common sense legislation. The Democrat Party is the one by and large that 1273 01:32:05.680 --> 01:32:10.800 is obstructing this process right now. And when you go in November, if 1274 01:32:10.840 --> 01:32:14.960 you're a single issue voter, you have two options. You have Robert Kennedy, 1275 01:32:15.439 --> 01:32:18.960 who showed up at Consensus and spoke there, showed up at f Denver 1276 01:32:19.039 --> 01:32:23.920 and spoke there and is very pro crypto, and you have Donald Trump. 1277 01:32:23.920 --> 01:32:30.960 Those are your two options. But you know, unfortunately with Biden, that's 1278 01:32:30.960 --> 01:32:32.399 not an option for you. If you vote for him, you're voting for 1279 01:32:32.439 --> 01:32:36.800 the destruction of the American cryptocurrency industry in my view, as demonstrated by four 1280 01:32:36.880 --> 01:32:42.880 years of actions he's had. Charles, I wish we had another half an 1281 01:32:42.880 --> 01:32:45.560 hour but thank you so much for joining me, and I appreciate all your 1282 01:32:45.600 --> 01:32:49.960 insights, and we'll have to have you back on as things progress, maybe 1283 01:32:49.960 --> 01:32:54.000 in another couple of months or so, all right, thank you so much, 1284 01:32:54.039 --> 01:33:08.720 Tony. Cheers, bask boost task stok bakk