WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:03.680 Yeah, my industry spect made. Let's go. All right, let's go. 2 00:00:06.799 --> 00:00:11.199 No, I got laid off when they close that as Bestis factory. 3 00:00:12.519 --> 00:00:16.839 Now, wouldn't you know it? The Army cuts my disability pension because I 4 00:00:16.960 --> 00:00:23.239 said that the plate in my head wasn't big enough. Eddie Clark and Ellen 5 00:00:23.280 --> 00:00:26.600 don't want to hear about our troubles. No, no, it's very interesting. 6 00:00:36.479 --> 00:00:39.439 Well, here we are. It's the high holidays. They're over and 7 00:00:39.640 --> 00:00:43.280 it is black culture for the end of September. I am John Pottharts and 8 00:00:43.320 --> 00:00:46.280 New York. Elsewhere in New York, Rob Long, Hi, Rob Hi, 9 00:00:46.399 --> 00:00:52.560 John, Rob And back from a sojourn driving across this great country of 10 00:00:52.560 --> 00:00:56.119 ours, and back again in Washington. Jonah Goldberg, Hi, Jonah, 11 00:00:56.439 --> 00:00:59.039 Hey John, how are you? I am? I am very well. 12 00:00:59.159 --> 00:01:06.840 Johneh. You have turned into Randy Quaid in the vacation you as long as 13 00:01:06.840 --> 00:01:11.200 you're not Randy Quaid towards the tail end of his career having sex with his 14 00:01:11.239 --> 00:01:18.799 wife on on on Twitter. Uh, talking about how that's like what what 15 00:01:18.920 --> 00:01:23.079 Obama is doing to the country. That's fine, But I'm a little bit 16 00:01:23.159 --> 00:01:27.519 like Randy Quaid in the end of a Independence day. But okay, yeah, 17 00:01:27.599 --> 00:01:34.200 less probing, but yeah yeah, uh and so uh you you have 18 00:01:34.480 --> 00:01:40.439 you now your own family RV is what I'm saying. We have a major 19 00:01:40.480 --> 00:01:47.200 family truckster. That's right. It's a it's a the larger of the I 20 00:01:47.200 --> 00:01:52.560 should say largest of the sprinter vans. That's the chassis. But it's a 21 00:01:52.640 --> 00:01:57.680 custom conversion RV thing. It's got lots of cool bells and whistles. It's 22 00:01:59.319 --> 00:02:04.640 it's basically the Nay plus ultra of tailgate technology. So now I'm gonna have 23 00:02:04.640 --> 00:02:08.240 to become one of those people. And you learned some things, you know, 24 00:02:08.840 --> 00:02:12.879 embracing this life. But uh, and we've got a lot more to 25 00:02:12.960 --> 00:02:16.840 learn. But it's really it's a it's a great piece of equipment. I've 26 00:02:16.879 --> 00:02:21.240 learned also that you know, diesel fuel is expensive. That didn't used to 27 00:02:21.280 --> 00:02:23.400 be the case. It used to be cheaper than gas, and now it's 28 00:02:23.319 --> 00:02:32.240 it's not cheap. And but no, it's just you know, we we 29 00:02:32.280 --> 00:02:36.520 saw a great deal of this country very quickly on this trip because we had 30 00:02:36.520 --> 00:02:38.879 to make it back to Iowa for a wedding. Our executive editor of the 31 00:02:38.879 --> 00:02:44.039 Dispatch, Declan Garvey, had just an absolutely lovely wedding in Des Moines, 32 00:02:44.439 --> 00:02:47.319 and we had to get there in time for it. And but no, 33 00:02:47.400 --> 00:02:52.639 I mean the bells and whistles are kind of wild on the thing. And 34 00:02:53.719 --> 00:02:57.560 I had to sell a little trunk of my soul to get starlink from Elon 35 00:02:57.680 --> 00:03:01.120 Musk. But they delivered it. They didn't liver it to the place where 36 00:03:01.120 --> 00:03:04.439 I needed them to deliver it. So now it's all heres have to set 37 00:03:04.479 --> 00:03:08.360 that up. And well, so what what does that mean, star, 38 00:03:08.599 --> 00:03:12.479 I haven't built into my car. It's it's Wi Fi for your car. 39 00:03:12.520 --> 00:03:16.199 So you can get serious exam and Spotify and stuff like. No, no, 40 00:03:16.199 --> 00:03:19.800 no, you can get serious next amim and Spotify. Anyway, this 41 00:03:19.800 --> 00:03:22.479 this lets you have in the middle of the Mojave desert, where there are 42 00:03:22.520 --> 00:03:27.120 no cell signals, you can get home speed uh Internet, so I could 43 00:03:27.159 --> 00:03:31.400 do chool and that kind of thing from anywhere. And I have not set 44 00:03:31.479 --> 00:03:35.719 up the the satellite radio yet. That's a different thing. But this is 45 00:03:35.759 --> 00:03:40.879 like so you can Stawever, I need to interrupt this because you were in 46 00:03:40.960 --> 00:03:45.919 Iowa, and therefore you were on the ground. I didn't get on the 47 00:03:45.919 --> 00:03:50.960 ground in Iowa. And they need some shoe leather reporting, right, what 48 00:03:51.000 --> 00:03:55.840 did the cab driver tell you you talked to voters. I talked to some 49 00:03:57.680 --> 00:04:00.240 shakers in the political world. I was out there that happened to be at 50 00:04:00.280 --> 00:04:04.199 this wedding, and I can record. I was hoping for ordinary. I 51 00:04:04.280 --> 00:04:15.759 talked to some of them as elite cocktail party fancying dey Georgetown. Let me 52 00:04:15.759 --> 00:04:18.519 tell you, some people are angry. People are angry. They don't like 53 00:04:18.560 --> 00:04:24.360 inflation. I found that people don't like inflation. These are kitchen table issues, 54 00:04:24.439 --> 00:04:28.399 I will say, in terms of political avalance, like this is the 55 00:04:28.399 --> 00:04:30.439 fifth time I've driven cross country in the last eight years, tenth time. 56 00:04:30.439 --> 00:04:35.000 I don't know something like that. You see almost no Trump signage except signage 57 00:04:35.079 --> 00:04:39.879 left over from twenty twenty. They're still on the on the interstates, you'll 58 00:04:39.879 --> 00:04:43.959 still see Trump twenty twenty, Trump Pence twenty twenty, Trump Make America Great 59 00:04:43.959 --> 00:04:46.560 Again twenty twenty. I had not. I don't. I think I saw 60 00:04:46.680 --> 00:04:50.360 one handmade Trump twenty twenty twenty four signed the entire time I was out there, 61 00:04:50.480 --> 00:04:56.560 which is interesting to me. And I do think it's interesting that people 62 00:04:56.600 --> 00:05:02.920 don't tear down the old signs. Consensus seems to be from the literally ones 63 00:05:02.959 --> 00:05:08.959 and twos of people I talked to that the santiss moment is over. Maybe 64 00:05:08.959 --> 00:05:15.680 that'll change tomorrow night we're talking to the day before the next debate, that 65 00:05:15.800 --> 00:05:19.560 Nikki really is the only one left poised to sort of be the consolidation, 66 00:05:21.120 --> 00:05:27.079 but that also could change. It's that amazing, So I mean, don't 67 00:05:27.079 --> 00:05:29.600 you have to kind of like that the idea, I mean, it's good 68 00:05:29.639 --> 00:05:31.399 and bad. Right, used to be that you could kind of, you 69 00:05:31.439 --> 00:05:38.000 know, he kind of snooze through the Republican Party primary. You kind of 70 00:05:38.079 --> 00:05:41.839 knew, right. Republican primary vote is pretty much obeyed the rules. They 71 00:05:41.920 --> 00:05:44.680 may flirt a little bit, but they obeyed the rules. The rule of 72 00:05:44.720 --> 00:05:46.600 this year was that rond de Santos is going to be nominated. He had 73 00:05:46.639 --> 00:05:51.000 to and then this all just happened before there's even been an Iowa caucus. 74 00:05:51.279 --> 00:05:56.800 It's either unsettling, which is a little bit, or it's kind of cool 75 00:05:57.040 --> 00:06:02.279 that that they you know, Rob, it's funny. I've learned that a 76 00:06:02.399 --> 00:06:05.839 month is a lifetime in politics. I don't know if you've heard that. 77 00:06:06.920 --> 00:06:10.040 I heard a week. I heard. Let me ask you this that fat 78 00:06:10.079 --> 00:06:14.480 lady singing basically any increment over right now is a lifetime in politics? Is 79 00:06:14.480 --> 00:06:16.480 whatever? Right? And you know what, this is what I always said, 80 00:06:16.480 --> 00:06:19.600 I kind of coined this phrase, is that there's only one pole that 81 00:06:19.600 --> 00:06:25.759 matters, and that's the one that happens. You know that once you include 82 00:06:25.920 --> 00:06:31.279 Trump in any cliche, the cliche is completely invalidated because it's like a day 83 00:06:31.519 --> 00:06:38.439 is a lifetime with Trump. True, but that doesn't mean that anything changes 84 00:06:39.199 --> 00:06:43.680 in that. He's like that, that's that's what she said. And then 85 00:06:43.720 --> 00:06:46.879 it's just like it's Nietzsche's eternal return with Trump. It's like every day is 86 00:06:46.959 --> 00:06:53.399 the same day. He calls for Mark Milly to be assassinated. He called, 87 00:06:53.480 --> 00:06:57.680 He says, he's gonna punish assassinated cast He's gonna do this, He's 88 00:06:57.720 --> 00:07:00.279 gonna do that. Then the day ends, and the next day star arts, 89 00:07:00.319 --> 00:07:01.800 and you know, then he's going to call for somebody else to be 90 00:07:01.800 --> 00:07:08.279 assassinated and executed, executed. Excuse me, Yes, she doesn't apply a 91 00:07:08.279 --> 00:07:11.720 certain amount of lawfulness to it, right, but yeah, there would be. 92 00:07:11.759 --> 00:07:15.240 He was. He was in favor of a process, process of execution, 93 00:07:15.279 --> 00:07:17.879 which is when you say, uh, you know, guns up, 94 00:07:18.920 --> 00:07:24.199 Can I tell you my firing squad joke. I'll just quickly tell you my 95 00:07:24.240 --> 00:07:27.519 firing squad joke, because there's two Jews in front of a firing squad and 96 00:07:27.600 --> 00:07:30.519 the commandant of the firing sque says any last requests, and one says, 97 00:07:30.800 --> 00:07:34.040 I would like please a blindfold, and the other says, Sam, don't 98 00:07:34.079 --> 00:07:42.120 make trouble. I've heard of even darker version of that one. I don't 99 00:07:42.120 --> 00:07:46.319 know. It's pretty dark anyway. It's dark about the servility of people in 100 00:07:46.360 --> 00:07:48.879 the face of the face of over I heard a great joke which I feel 101 00:07:48.879 --> 00:07:54.079 like, maybe now that I think about it, Rob may have told here 102 00:07:54.199 --> 00:08:00.519 before, but they had I'm not going to space his name. A long 103 00:08:00.560 --> 00:08:07.040 time writer for SNL was on the guy who sort of gave Conan his start, 104 00:08:07.399 --> 00:08:11.519 and yeah, and it was a pretty good episode, I have to 105 00:08:11.560 --> 00:08:20.240 say. And this is on Flying the Wall, and he says he thinks 106 00:08:20.240 --> 00:08:22.040 it was Checky Green, but it might have been Don Rickles who first told 107 00:08:22.079 --> 00:08:28.639 this joke about how he was in Vegas and and Frank Sinatra was in the 108 00:08:28.720 --> 00:08:35.080 room, and Checky Green says, Frank Sinatra once saved my life. And 109 00:08:35.360 --> 00:08:39.639 he says, I was being beaten up in an alley by two thugs, 110 00:08:39.759 --> 00:08:43.840 and Sinatra saw it and came over and said, okay, that's enough, 111 00:08:43.840 --> 00:08:50.519 fellas. Hey, now, okay, there's a better version of that. 112 00:08:50.759 --> 00:08:54.240 There's a better version. There were two, which is Frank Sinat just saved 113 00:08:54.240 --> 00:08:58.559 my life. Five guys were in a jumped me in a parking lot in 114 00:08:58.639 --> 00:09:01.480 Vegas and beat me up. And then I heard Frank's voice saying, okay, 115 00:09:01.480 --> 00:09:05.360 boys, that's enough. That's the other version. I'm sure there's a 116 00:09:05.360 --> 00:09:07.720 lot of versions of that. But yeah. I was recently watching Ocean's Thirteen, 117 00:09:07.799 --> 00:09:13.440 as one does from time to time, Yes, and the half life 118 00:09:13.440 --> 00:09:18.360 of seriousness of those movies is kind of impressive. But the thing that drives 119 00:09:18.360 --> 00:09:22.639 me crazy in that is it's just sort of taken as an obvious like this 120 00:09:22.679 --> 00:09:31.200 makes sense that anyone who shook Frank Sinatra's hand wouldn't do anything underhanded or dishonest, 121 00:09:31.519 --> 00:09:35.080 Like there's this code among them. Shook his hand. Oh yeah, 122 00:09:35.120 --> 00:09:39.519 he shook his hand. Oh my's literal. We've ended up here because yesterday 123 00:09:39.879 --> 00:09:45.799 he's got a piece of a true cross. Yesterday I was changing channels and 124 00:09:45.919 --> 00:09:50.120 Casino, the Martin Scorsese movie on which I haven't seen really since it was 125 00:09:50.159 --> 00:09:54.960 released, and man, that is a strange movie. It is, you 126 00:09:56.000 --> 00:09:58.200 know, which was made right, you know, a couple of years after 127 00:09:58.879 --> 00:10:03.759 Goodfellas and has a out of the visual flash of good Fellas, and it 128 00:10:03.759 --> 00:10:07.360 has a narrator like good Fellas, so that actually has two narrators, so 129 00:10:07.399 --> 00:10:11.600 it's like a sequel, so it does twice as much. Movie has no 130 00:10:11.799 --> 00:10:16.440 plot, and it's basically a kind of visual essay on how to run a 131 00:10:16.440 --> 00:10:22.559 casino and what happened, how people is great, and how people try to 132 00:10:22.600 --> 00:10:28.080 fleece it, and how they're watching each other and who what happens where, 133 00:10:28.159 --> 00:10:31.960 and then what happens if the gangsters get involved and all that. It really 134 00:10:31.000 --> 00:10:39.559 doesn't have a story. It's like a documentary that costs fifty million dollars with 135 00:10:39.679 --> 00:10:43.639 some actors in the Yeah, very good. It's very mean. It's like 136 00:10:45.159 --> 00:10:48.039 it's one of those movies that if you're flipping around and it's on for me 137 00:10:48.080 --> 00:10:52.279 anyway, I have to watch the whole thing and and it's it's also kind 138 00:10:52.279 --> 00:10:54.639 of a crazy morality tale, I mean, and the scene where Joe Pesh 139 00:10:54.720 --> 00:11:00.000 and his brother get waxed, it's kind of horrifying but incredibly satisfying anyway, 140 00:11:00.120 --> 00:11:01.919 it's wacheraful, but I don't think necessarily good. I'm going to split the 141 00:11:01.919 --> 00:11:05.279 difference. Every time it's on. I want to watch it, Yeah, 142 00:11:05.320 --> 00:11:07.399 for at least a little bit. But their problem with it it just doesn't 143 00:11:07.440 --> 00:11:11.000 have So here's my question. There's no story. It's a real story. 144 00:11:11.120 --> 00:11:16.440 That's the Point's a true story. Yeah, so it's like that's why sometimes 145 00:11:16.440 --> 00:11:20.600 life doesn't have a plot. But my question was, like, has Joe 146 00:11:20.679 --> 00:11:31.399 Peschi in a movie ever died or been physically attacked and assaulted with his character 147 00:11:31.519 --> 00:11:35.200 did not deserve it. I was gonna say, right up until the end 148 00:11:35.279 --> 00:11:37.039 home Alone, but you know he has a coming and home alone. No. 149 00:11:37.240 --> 00:11:41.559 In in Raging Bull, which is where he you know, emerged, 150 00:11:43.039 --> 00:11:48.799 de Niro, who plays his brother, beats him up out of psychotic jealousy 151 00:11:48.879 --> 00:11:52.679 over his wife that his brother Joe Peschi did not deserve, you know, 152 00:11:52.960 --> 00:11:58.279 was not responsible for. So there is in his first movie he has beaten 153 00:11:58.360 --> 00:12:03.519 up, buying Robert de Niro for no good reason. So after that he 154 00:12:03.639 --> 00:12:11.559 was always beating Yes, yes, but he's kind of always I mean, 155 00:12:11.559 --> 00:12:16.639 he's it's like always a version of the same guy, like I'm just like 156 00:12:18.159 --> 00:12:20.440 Denier kind of has that too. I just im trying to like think about 157 00:12:20.840 --> 00:12:26.440 there are actors that, uh like like, well, you know the famous 158 00:12:26.480 --> 00:12:31.120 old you know one Fred McMurray who basically played heavies and like kind of sinister 159 00:12:31.279 --> 00:12:35.600 characters until he was suddenly My Three Sons. It's like when you take the 160 00:12:35.600 --> 00:12:39.559 the actor from the big screen and you put him a little screen, suddenly 161 00:12:39.559 --> 00:12:43.000 he's a dad like and if you're flipping around like, well, he's also 162 00:12:43.039 --> 00:12:46.080 a psych guy. I know that those are those are great. Listen. 163 00:12:46.120 --> 00:12:50.440 By the way, Yeah, let you mentioned Fred McMurray, who I think 164 00:12:50.440 --> 00:12:54.440 it would be fair to say did not give a particularly memorable performance as Steve 165 00:12:54.480 --> 00:12:58.559 Douglas on on My Three Sons. If his name was Steve. I think 166 00:12:58.600 --> 00:13:01.399 his name was Steve. Well, you know, did I tell you my 167 00:13:01.480 --> 00:13:05.399 Frederick Burrister? You have told him? Bit I think you should tell Yeah, 168 00:13:05.440 --> 00:13:07.080 Well, because he was this is when he was so rich. He 169 00:13:07.159 --> 00:13:11.639 was incredibly rich guy and very because he bought a bell Air property. There 170 00:13:11.639 --> 00:13:15.360 are a few people like that who bought a lot of property of bell Air 171 00:13:16.919 --> 00:13:20.360 and but he didn't want to do the show or near the end he was 172 00:13:20.399 --> 00:13:24.240 just tired of doing it. So he just said, look, shoot me 173 00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:26.960 out at the beginning of the season. I'll give you two weeks. And 174 00:13:28.000 --> 00:13:30.639 so they wrote all the scripts ahead of time, which you can kind of 175 00:13:30.639 --> 00:13:35.840 tell, and they shot him out, meaning they shot all of his all 176 00:13:35.879 --> 00:13:41.480 of his coverage, so all of his close ups and his wide shots, 177 00:13:41.480 --> 00:13:45.919 everything they shot for every episode for the entire season. They shot everybody else's 178 00:13:45.960 --> 00:13:50.840 stuff. So it's like there's huge mismatches in the show. And he is 179 00:13:50.840 --> 00:13:52.440 because he didn't want to do it. He's like, I don't want to 180 00:13:52.440 --> 00:13:54.519 do this, and he's a big enough star they that, okay, we'll 181 00:13:54.559 --> 00:13:56.919 do that. But my favorite fe McMurray stories I told type you can cut 182 00:13:56.919 --> 00:14:01.399 the city you haven't heard is he is at the bell Air Country Club and 183 00:14:01.559 --> 00:14:05.240 I heard this story from Bob Newhart and you know, McMurray was one of 184 00:14:05.240 --> 00:14:07.679 the richest guys in town, right, And he comes at to Bob and 185 00:14:07.720 --> 00:14:13.480 he says, Bob, you won't believe what just happened to me. In 186 00:14:13.559 --> 00:14:16.240 our home up there in bell Air. There was the powder room, gasterers, 187 00:14:16.240 --> 00:14:22.759 pader room, there was a leaky toilet, toilet kip running so I 188 00:14:22.799 --> 00:14:26.440 called the plumber, Bob, and the plumber arrives and he goes in and 189 00:14:26.519 --> 00:14:33.480 he turns it and then he charged me. Don't he charge me fifty dollars 190 00:14:33.519 --> 00:14:39.159 for ten minutes? Bob? You and I are in the wrong business. 191 00:14:41.879 --> 00:14:46.360 Uh. You know, it's interesting who got really rich in Hollywood and the 192 00:14:46.399 --> 00:14:50.399 gold in the Golden days, because it's not who you would think. It's 193 00:14:50.399 --> 00:14:54.279 not you, it's table. Yeah, it was Joel McCray. Joel McCray 194 00:14:54.200 --> 00:14:58.120 who could have been a great star. He could have been Jimmy Stewart. 195 00:14:58.159 --> 00:15:01.240 I mean, he wasn't as good actress Jimmy Stewart. But it's all about 196 00:15:01.840 --> 00:15:05.600 role selection or whether you get the parts that you need over the course of 197 00:15:05.600 --> 00:15:09.159 your right of your career. Because Joe mccraye was in four or five really 198 00:15:09.200 --> 00:15:13.679 great movies, but they were kind of spaced out and he didn't have a 199 00:15:13.480 --> 00:15:16.879 like a killer. Mean, he was in Foreign Correspondence, which is a 200 00:15:16.080 --> 00:15:20.960 which is a great Hitchcock movie. He was in Sullivan's Travel Beach Story by 201 00:15:22.039 --> 00:15:26.320 by Preston Sturgis. He was very, very very attractive, very good looking, 202 00:15:26.320 --> 00:15:28.840 could do comedy, could do drama, was a wet start in Western's 203 00:15:30.679 --> 00:15:35.519 but he owned like, I don't know, like half of the San Fernando 204 00:15:35.639 --> 00:15:41.759 Valley or something like. He owned an enormous amount of real estate, and 205 00:15:41.799 --> 00:15:46.879 I think when he died he was worth now what would be the equivalent of 206 00:15:46.960 --> 00:15:54.320 several billion dollars. And so it was guys like him who made these killings 207 00:15:54.399 --> 00:15:56.240 and the big famous guys. Once told me, maybe you guys know this 208 00:15:56.320 --> 00:16:00.279 is true. I've never been able to really look it up and find much 209 00:16:00.320 --> 00:16:03.240 success, so maybe I have this wrong. I'm not trying to traffic and 210 00:16:03.440 --> 00:16:07.799 on misinformation here, but someone told me that Bruce Springsteen owns a vast amount 211 00:16:07.840 --> 00:16:14.519 of real estate in downtown LA and is actually much much richer than people realized. 212 00:16:14.519 --> 00:16:17.039 I mean, I don't think anyone thought he was poor, but like 213 00:16:17.399 --> 00:16:22.120 much much people realize. Have you guys ever heard that? I haven't. 214 00:16:22.120 --> 00:16:23.759 I have not heard that, but I believe hold on us. I got 215 00:16:23.759 --> 00:16:29.600 to look this up because I think another like crazy rich guy who owned a 216 00:16:29.639 --> 00:16:34.120 lot of LA was morey amster, really hold on where is this morning? 217 00:16:34.240 --> 00:16:37.519 Well, back day it was easy because like nobody, nobody knew what that, 218 00:16:37.639 --> 00:16:40.840 nobody knew how it was going to grow. If you started early, 219 00:16:41.080 --> 00:16:45.639 early enough. Yeah, that was if you started early enough and bought stuff 220 00:16:45.639 --> 00:16:48.799 like Bob Hope, you buy the valve of San Fernando Valley, it's like 221 00:16:49.159 --> 00:16:52.679 Chinatown. Suddenly you're we're going to corporate the valley into the city, and 222 00:16:52.679 --> 00:16:56.159 then before you know it, you're you're a zillionaire. The I worked with 223 00:16:56.200 --> 00:17:00.000 a direct photography. The first one is the second DP of Cheers. But 224 00:17:00.759 --> 00:17:03.599 he had been in Paramount for a long time. This really super old guy 225 00:17:03.640 --> 00:17:10.359 when when he worked with us named John Finger, and John Finger came out 226 00:17:10.400 --> 00:17:14.640 to LA from somewhere in the twenties, maybe he's even before that, to 227 00:17:14.759 --> 00:17:18.240 work in pictures, and I think he wanted to be an actor in nineteen 228 00:17:18.880 --> 00:17:22.519 nineteen or nineteen twenty two, but eventually he just became a kep. And 229 00:17:22.799 --> 00:17:27.960 but he was from farming stock, so he and his wife bought a farm 230 00:17:29.119 --> 00:17:36.279 in Los Angeles in the twenties on like X Yeah, I think like five 231 00:17:36.400 --> 00:17:41.839 or ten flat acres in bel Air. So he drove this little BW rabbit 232 00:17:42.240 --> 00:17:47.440 and he once he brought us his paycheck from famous Laskey players. He got 233 00:17:47.480 --> 00:17:51.880 fifteen hundred dollars. I think it was like a year and then he had 234 00:17:51.920 --> 00:17:55.240 they had a little farm. Uh, and he was one of the richest 235 00:17:55.279 --> 00:18:00.519 guys on the set just because of you. My daughter went to this wonderful 236 00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:04.079 camp in Maine called Camp Walden, which, according to lore, was the 237 00:18:04.079 --> 00:18:07.160 camp that the Parent Trap, the original Parent Trap, was based on, 238 00:18:07.519 --> 00:18:14.880 And and every time I would drive up there, it would really hammer home 239 00:18:14.960 --> 00:18:18.640 the fact that the single best time to buy real estate and Maine is one 240 00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:23.160 hundred years ago, because you can get some amazing bargain. Yeah, if 241 00:18:23.160 --> 00:18:26.759 you can go shopping one hundred years ago. Oh yeah, wow, it 242 00:18:26.920 --> 00:18:30.759 is fall, which means you should be picking apples, not wedgies. 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So 266 00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:08.480 we were talking about Fred McMurray, and as I said, I don't think 267 00:20:08.519 --> 00:20:14.480 anybody looks back on Fred McMurray's thirteen years or fifteen years or nineteen years on 268 00:20:14.599 --> 00:20:18.799 my three sons and says that he did much of anything good as a performer. 269 00:20:18.839 --> 00:20:22.960 But I have this weird experience over the last couple of days. Uh, 270 00:20:22.160 --> 00:20:26.640 these smart TVs now come, all of them. I have a Samsung 271 00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:32.880 in my office and they have this kind of preset weird non cable, non 272 00:20:33.079 --> 00:20:38.079 streaming free channel. They have this this thing called Samsung TV Plus, and 273 00:20:38.119 --> 00:20:42.599 there are like four or five hundred stations you don't pay for right, and 274 00:20:42.640 --> 00:20:47.960 it's just like there's they have all these weird you know, there's a free 275 00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:52.359 CNN, there's a free CBS News now ABC, there's sort of news channels, 276 00:20:52.119 --> 00:20:56.839 and then they have all this stuff where they play things twenty four hours 277 00:20:56.880 --> 00:21:02.480 a day, like That Girl. There's like a That Girl channel that just 278 00:21:02.559 --> 00:21:07.720 shows episodes of That Girl. And there's a channel that shows episodes of like 279 00:21:07.880 --> 00:21:11.880 Ike Carly or something like that, and there was a channel that shows episodes 280 00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:15.599 of family Ties, so I put on the channel of Family Ties. There 281 00:21:15.599 --> 00:21:19.039 were some completely nondescript episode of Family Ties. I think one of the ones 282 00:21:19.079 --> 00:21:23.880 that did not revolve around Michael J. Fox's Alex Pekeaton but was about one 283 00:21:23.960 --> 00:21:27.559 of his sisters, which when you were watching the show in real time in 284 00:21:27.599 --> 00:21:34.000 the nineteen eighties and you realize that they were doing an episode about Mallory, 285 00:21:34.319 --> 00:21:37.559 you were like, oh, no, it's an episode about Mallory. Water 286 00:21:38.599 --> 00:21:42.039 to us, can't we just go back to the episodes about Alex. But 287 00:21:42.440 --> 00:21:45.400 by the way, I don't know this for a fact, but my guess 288 00:21:45.440 --> 00:21:48.799 is that the Pete, the writer assigned to do the first draft of that 289 00:21:48.839 --> 00:21:53.480 episode, was the most the youngest one on step right, so and most 290 00:21:53.480 --> 00:21:57.160 recent higher has to be the Mallory episode. So, even on those episodes, 291 00:21:57.200 --> 00:22:00.720 because I watched four or five of them over the course of the last 292 00:22:00.720 --> 00:22:04.720 week, Michael J. Fox pops up on screen for you know, ten 293 00:22:04.759 --> 00:22:07.880 minutes, he's in the kitchen. You know, they say something like, 294 00:22:08.279 --> 00:22:15.839 oh, Alex, and then he delivers some line and he just pops through 295 00:22:17.480 --> 00:22:25.119 the screen, that that merger of that guy and the character but really him. 296 00:22:25.160 --> 00:22:27.200 That is like if you go back, if you weren't say it's a 297 00:22:27.319 --> 00:22:32.960 hundred years really of you know, like movies and television stuff like that. 298 00:22:33.200 --> 00:22:37.400 Right about now, if you were like going to say, who were the 299 00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:42.680 twenty five most memorable characters over those hundred years, you might end up putting 300 00:22:44.799 --> 00:22:51.519 Michael J. Fox's Alex P. Keaton in there. It's that indelible, 301 00:22:51.599 --> 00:22:56.440 remarkable performance. And maybe because it's not the centerpiece of the show, maybe 302 00:22:56.440 --> 00:23:00.519 because he is a supporting player and supporting character in his own way and doesn't 303 00:23:00.519 --> 00:23:07.039 really have to change or whatever, and he's just a the timing, the 304 00:23:07.160 --> 00:23:11.519 precision, you know, so much better than everybody that he was working with. 305 00:23:11.559 --> 00:23:14.359 All of that, and then I was just thinking, like, this 306 00:23:14.440 --> 00:23:22.759 is a thing on television. People create these characters, and they are they'll 307 00:23:22.759 --> 00:23:26.240 be around as long as we have this, as long as people want to 308 00:23:26.279 --> 00:23:30.279 watch things like this. And I was wondering if you guys had some ideas 309 00:23:30.319 --> 00:23:40.000 about other perform performances like that that sort of transcend their show or trans just 310 00:23:40.279 --> 00:23:48.920 are like moment, you know, just kind of memorials to what TV what 311 00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:52.720 popular entertainment can be in this medium where you know, you make, if 312 00:23:52.720 --> 00:23:56.599 you have a success, you make hundreds of episodes, and someone's got to 313 00:23:56.680 --> 00:24:02.960 sort of like keep delivering over and over and over again. Well, obviously 314 00:24:03.039 --> 00:24:11.400 Jamie Farr and then didn't mention yes, yes, yes, yes, others. 315 00:24:11.519 --> 00:24:15.039 Yeah, A lot of people would say Jim nick Natowski from Taxi, 316 00:24:15.119 --> 00:24:18.640 but I would actually say Louis de Palma or or Danny DeVito and Taxi. 317 00:24:21.359 --> 00:24:26.160 He really did own any scene he was in. And it's weird. It's 318 00:24:26.200 --> 00:24:29.480 like Taxi's a little bit like Barney Miller in this way, and that the 319 00:24:29.559 --> 00:24:33.279 main character is kind of a placeholder. No one really cares about Judd Hirsch 320 00:24:33.359 --> 00:24:37.559 and Taxi. No one really cares about how Lyndon and Barney Miller, right, 321 00:24:37.680 --> 00:24:42.480 But every scene that they're in, I mean everything that like the Danny 322 00:24:42.519 --> 00:24:48.720 DeVito's and the the Danny DeVito. The episode of Taxi where Danny DeVito has 323 00:24:48.799 --> 00:24:55.599 to figure out how much money to ask Jim Nick. I think it's Jim 324 00:24:55.640 --> 00:25:02.319 mckatowski's dad for and his mental process figuring out just the right number is one 325 00:25:02.359 --> 00:25:07.720 of the great scenes and all of sitcoms and and there's really no other role 326 00:25:07.839 --> 00:25:12.640 that like Louis de Palma was really right for matter that that that that that 327 00:25:12.720 --> 00:25:18.119 that Danny DeVito was right for in that way, so that when Ted Baxter 328 00:25:18.160 --> 00:25:23.160 and Mary Tyler Moore, you know, sure, sure, but there's a 329 00:25:23.160 --> 00:25:26.279 difference, right because I mean, you're right, it's that it's a supporting 330 00:25:26.359 --> 00:25:29.880 character. But it can't be I don't know Rob will know the right term 331 00:25:29.960 --> 00:25:33.279 for it. It can't be like that. The purely comedic by Jimmy Nartowski's 332 00:25:33.400 --> 00:25:40.640 just is a or or Coach in Cheers was on, but he was too 333 00:25:40.680 --> 00:25:44.599 one to mention, you know, it wasn't a broad enough personality. You 334 00:25:44.640 --> 00:25:48.680 need someone with a full personality who kind of owns that space. Well, 335 00:25:48.839 --> 00:25:52.000 usually you're overstaffed, right, you're overmanned when you do a show like that. 336 00:25:52.039 --> 00:25:56.319 When you think of Mary Tyler Moore or tax Here, I mean, 337 00:25:56.079 --> 00:26:00.440 I mean all the great ones where you have this incredible cast and they really 338 00:26:00.720 --> 00:26:07.359 they don't they don't get that much to do. Really, they're they they 339 00:26:07.440 --> 00:26:11.279 get an episode once or twice. There's there's some great coach episode where he 340 00:26:11.480 --> 00:26:15.000 where Ernie Pantuoso, who's played the part, is really fantastic and it's it's 341 00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:19.599 called Coach's Daughter. Oh my God, and it's a it's a great, 342 00:26:19.640 --> 00:26:26.279 great episode, and he's terrific in it, but like he just you know, 343 00:26:26.359 --> 00:26:29.200 that's part of it is that he just didn't stand behind the bar and 344 00:26:29.279 --> 00:26:34.519 say funny things. That was So that's what's so transcendent about Michael is that 345 00:26:34.599 --> 00:26:41.119 so Alex Alex Keaton was designed as a caricature, and the show was supposed 346 00:26:41.119 --> 00:26:44.759 to be about Gary David Goldberg, the creator, and his wife and how 347 00:26:44.799 --> 00:26:48.680 and how terrible it was to have these eighties kids, you know, the 348 00:26:48.880 --> 00:26:56.880 daughter who was materialistic, a son who like is swear and likes Reagan and 349 00:26:56.960 --> 00:27:00.279 their hippies, and they, you know, oh poor that. And then 350 00:27:00.319 --> 00:27:06.160 this thing happens where the show hits the air and this kid out of nowhere 351 00:27:06.680 --> 00:27:11.359 blows America away, and then the show has to be retooled, slowly, 352 00:27:11.480 --> 00:27:15.319 rejiggered. Yeah, not even that slowly. I mean it would happened like 353 00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:18.559 it was happening in the chet episode when they when they wanted to put when 354 00:27:18.559 --> 00:27:22.279 they wanted to cast Michael Jay Fox, and it was scariest first choice. 355 00:27:22.079 --> 00:27:26.119 The story that everyone tells is that he goes to you know, get you 356 00:27:26.160 --> 00:27:30.640 get your casting approved by the network president and Brandon tartikof as the president at 357 00:27:30.640 --> 00:27:33.920 the time, and he says to him, look, look that's what you 358 00:27:33.960 --> 00:27:36.759 want to play this part? Fine, but I don't see this kid on 359 00:27:36.799 --> 00:27:40.279 a lunchbox. And I'm like, really, Within a year, Michael J. 360 00:27:40.440 --> 00:27:45.759 Fox as Alex Reeger Alex Keaton was on a lunchbox. But also, 361 00:27:45.039 --> 00:27:49.680 the show was just supposed to be sixties kids, sixties parents, eighties kids, 362 00:27:51.240 --> 00:27:56.400 but it almost because of their weird they needing to like sand off the 363 00:27:56.519 --> 00:28:00.400 edges, right, So hippie parents eighties kids. The parents couldn't really be 364 00:28:00.519 --> 00:28:07.079 hippies. They had to be sort of uh, completely tame, middlewestern public 365 00:28:07.440 --> 00:28:14.599 TV progressives kind of. And the kid couldn't love Reagan. He had to 366 00:28:14.599 --> 00:28:18.599 love Nixon, right, so so Dox Pikes he loved Nixon, which was 367 00:28:19.000 --> 00:28:22.279 every conservatives like, that's not that guy's not even a conservative. But like 368 00:28:22.839 --> 00:28:27.359 TV Land, they had to say so they actually created their own problem with 369 00:28:27.400 --> 00:28:30.920 it because once you take all of the interesting stuff off of the parents, 370 00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:33.400 right, they're not really hippie anymore. They're not. They weren't the weren't 371 00:28:33.400 --> 00:28:37.960 meat heead it wasn't meathead. Also, like you end up with nothing. 372 00:28:37.160 --> 00:28:41.359 Yeah, you can really see where they were trying to go in the opening 373 00:28:42.079 --> 00:28:59.279 credit music thing where it's you know what we do baby without us, right, 374 00:28:59.279 --> 00:29:03.000 it's it's it's self absorbed. Baby Boomer were the center of our own 375 00:29:03.039 --> 00:29:07.720 story. These kids are part of our story, you know, like and 376 00:29:08.400 --> 00:29:14.480 and you're right, they turn into they're not the real sort of tune in, 377 00:29:14.720 --> 00:29:18.920 turn on, dropout, sort of acid free kippy parents. No right, 378 00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:22.119 no, that mister and missus c there's no years earlier, but they're 379 00:29:22.160 --> 00:29:27.000 the nine kippy parents who yell at people at the Whole Foods to keep wearing 380 00:29:27.039 --> 00:29:30.119 their mask at the end of the pandemic, you know, which is just 381 00:29:30.240 --> 00:29:34.799 different, right, yeah, right, yeah, But I do think that 382 00:29:34.839 --> 00:29:37.640 one of the things that happens, and Rob you actually wrote a piece for 383 00:29:37.799 --> 00:29:44.759 commentary about this like three or four years ago, is that Alex is a 384 00:29:44.839 --> 00:29:51.160 runaway character, like he was not the compret to be. He's a breakout 385 00:29:51.240 --> 00:29:59.240 character. And and what's interesting about him is that they created a character for 386 00:29:59.279 --> 00:30:04.680 whom the creators had contempt right the Gary David Goldbert sort of had contempt for 387 00:30:04.920 --> 00:30:15.599 and then this unbelievably lovable, awkward, witty, clever, physically dynamic actor 388 00:30:15.920 --> 00:30:25.799 comes in and sculpts this character that hijacks his show and completely changes its meaning 389 00:30:25.839 --> 00:30:29.720 because you just couldn't get enough of him. And like, the same thing 390 00:30:29.799 --> 00:30:34.079 kind of happened with Archie Bunker, right, Archie Bunker is slightly slightly and 391 00:30:34.119 --> 00:30:38.000 then and then later with Ron Swanson on Parks and rec who was supposed to 392 00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:47.839 be this psycho libertarian prepper lunatic who then by the end of the show is 393 00:30:47.880 --> 00:30:56.160 the most completely admirable example of selflessness and caring and uh, you know, 394 00:30:56.279 --> 00:31:03.160 self sacrifice and all of that, because these characters established them. So that's 395 00:31:03.200 --> 00:31:07.599 one of it. Nick Offerman is definitely, Yeah, I think that definitely 396 00:31:07.640 --> 00:31:15.960 that's true. Right, well in a way, which show, right, 397 00:31:15.039 --> 00:31:19.319 I mean that's a thing. Yeah, but the Frasier of the Frasier is 398 00:31:19.359 --> 00:31:26.759 not the same characters cheers right, Well, I mean there's some major differences. 399 00:31:26.960 --> 00:31:32.240 For one, we made him an orphan. For two, he grew 400 00:31:32.319 --> 00:31:36.920 up in Boston. Yeah, and his dad was a professor. Yeah. 401 00:31:36.960 --> 00:31:41.480 I mean, like I think he was an only child too. Like they 402 00:31:41.519 --> 00:31:44.480 did, they didn't even they did not they wisely did not retcon it, 403 00:31:44.519 --> 00:31:47.680 which I think was the right thing to do. Just just march forward, 404 00:31:47.960 --> 00:31:51.160 explain it all in the first episode, and then you're done. You never 405 00:31:51.200 --> 00:31:56.279 go back. The wording about actually Keaton, though, was that he was 406 00:31:56.480 --> 00:32:01.319 fun and funny and and it was like you and it was about Nixon, 407 00:32:01.480 --> 00:32:05.720 so he didn't you didn't have to like he wasn't taking his side on a 408 00:32:05.799 --> 00:32:10.839 current issue, and and he was like ambitious and wanted to be in business, 409 00:32:10.839 --> 00:32:15.599 and he was wearing a tie all the time. So he was likable 410 00:32:15.799 --> 00:32:20.480 and people liked him that he was funny, and he had a he had 411 00:32:20.519 --> 00:32:23.400 a drive, he had a reason to be, he had you know, 412 00:32:23.880 --> 00:32:28.400 he was striving for something. And those characters always more attractive, right, 413 00:32:30.160 --> 00:32:32.480 Archie Bunker was something different. I think Archie Bunker was the hero of the 414 00:32:32.559 --> 00:32:37.200 show because he was the one who had two jobs and he and his daughter 415 00:32:37.599 --> 00:32:44.559 worked. His daughter worked to support her lay about husband who we never even 416 00:32:44.559 --> 00:32:47.519 know what he was studying, because he's like a graduate student, graduate student, 417 00:32:47.559 --> 00:32:50.640 and he was like he taught a class or something, and he said 418 00:32:50.720 --> 00:32:54.000 he was a graduate dream was never mentioned he was a graduate student because he 419 00:32:54.079 --> 00:33:00.400 was dodging the draft. But they would never have made that point because they 420 00:33:00.440 --> 00:33:05.880 had friends who were Yeah, but everybody knew that this guy was a loser, 421 00:33:06.319 --> 00:33:09.839 Like everybody knew what the people buying the show he thought, meathead is 422 00:33:09.880 --> 00:33:15.640 like, he's he's the future, Shaggy Harry graduate students carrying man persons. 423 00:33:15.640 --> 00:33:19.640 That's the future. Not a guy who fought for his country and drives a 424 00:33:19.759 --> 00:33:23.519 cab and is a longshoreman. And every single morsel of food on that table, 425 00:33:23.880 --> 00:33:29.440 yea, he bought. And so if he's a little bit cranky, 426 00:33:29.519 --> 00:33:34.160 hey cut him from slack. Yeah but yeah, so but they again, 427 00:33:34.640 --> 00:33:40.440 Norman Lear did not want Archie Bunker to become a hero. But Carol O'Connor 428 00:33:42.200 --> 00:33:49.079 did something al chemical with that character. You know, he infused him with 429 00:33:49.200 --> 00:33:57.839 these qualities that made him hard to dismiss and and made you not only is 430 00:33:58.079 --> 00:34:01.480 root for him, but feel for him, like feel for his troubles. 431 00:34:01.519 --> 00:34:06.319 Like that was one of those shows that dealt with what it was like to 432 00:34:06.359 --> 00:34:12.000 live through the stagflation wage and price controls and then the stagflation of the nineteen 433 00:34:12.039 --> 00:34:16.840 seventies. This is like a working class family that was really suffering. I'll 434 00:34:16.840 --> 00:34:20.719 give you another I'll give you another character that you got to put in the 435 00:34:21.840 --> 00:34:24.920 transcends everything and maybe you could say too, but I would say I would 436 00:34:24.920 --> 00:34:30.599 say Jim Kirk. Maybe Kirk and Spock. Spot was a real breakout character, 437 00:34:30.679 --> 00:34:32.760 right, he was the guy that kind of a minor character that everyone 438 00:34:32.840 --> 00:34:37.280 loved. Spot. Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's got a funny 439 00:34:37.280 --> 00:34:42.199 idea, like if that show. I remember we were sitting on one day 440 00:34:42.280 --> 00:34:45.880 we had the beginning of every season of Cheers. We would like, you 441 00:34:45.920 --> 00:34:49.000 know, to beat this moment where somebody from the network would want to, 442 00:34:49.079 --> 00:34:52.159 you know, have a meeting and they couldn't do much. They didn't have 443 00:34:52.199 --> 00:34:54.360 any input at all. They never gave us notes on anything, but they 444 00:34:54.400 --> 00:34:58.239 just kind of want to have like a general chit chat. And the Cheers 445 00:34:58.280 --> 00:35:00.800 at that point was so powerful, not that I knew about it. I 446 00:35:00.840 --> 00:35:04.000 just was like, I assume this is the way it always works, But 447 00:35:04.039 --> 00:35:08.199 here's such a powerful show, so important that the network president would come to 448 00:35:08.320 --> 00:35:13.400 us. He'd say, can I come to you guys around ten thirty on 449 00:35:13.400 --> 00:35:15.480 Tuesday just to talk about the season. Make sure, and he would show 450 00:35:15.519 --> 00:35:17.960 up at ten thirty and we'd have like little bagels out or something for him, 451 00:35:19.000 --> 00:35:22.639 but like he would come to us and I remember he's the president at 452 00:35:22.679 --> 00:35:25.519 the time, said listen, I just everything's great. We love the show. 453 00:35:25.559 --> 00:35:30.559 I just we're worried about maybe, you know, said's not going to 454 00:35:30.599 --> 00:35:32.559 do another season. To turn out he did. He ended up doing two 455 00:35:32.559 --> 00:35:37.079 more seasons. But it's just we just think about a little bit. You 456 00:35:37.119 --> 00:35:42.960 know, everybody loves Norm. The Norm shows did really really well, and 457 00:35:43.039 --> 00:35:46.440 maybe we could just lay it in a little bit, like there's a family 458 00:35:46.480 --> 00:35:52.400 down the street from Norm and Vera, and that family down the street they 459 00:35:52.440 --> 00:35:55.920 have you know, six or eight kids, a lot of kids, and 460 00:35:55.960 --> 00:36:00.559 then there's like a horrible car act or something. Then both parents die, 461 00:36:01.119 --> 00:36:07.000 and so Norman Vera were just laid in are thinking about adopting the six kids, 462 00:36:08.280 --> 00:36:10.920 and then me, maybe that sets us up for like a spinoff. 463 00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:15.559 Just it keeps just bip bip bip just throughout the season. Bit bit bit 464 00:36:19.760 --> 00:36:23.320 what But he was pitching a spin he was like trying to prepare. He's 465 00:36:23.320 --> 00:36:25.199 like doing what he's supposed to do, which is the thing. Okay, 466 00:36:25.239 --> 00:36:29.199 I've got this character. Everybody loves Norm. You do a Norm episode, 467 00:36:29.239 --> 00:36:31.760 people love it. Why don't we just have the Norman Vera show when they 468 00:36:31.800 --> 00:36:36.320 adopt kids, which is what they did with the Fish, the plot of 469 00:36:36.400 --> 00:36:42.119 the Fish Fish. Can you imagine? Right? Can you imagine though? 470 00:36:42.159 --> 00:36:46.840 Being the network president during Star Trek, like everybody loves Spock, So what 471 00:36:46.960 --> 00:36:52.000 if Spocking to just Spock? What if spoken to to put Pang or whatever 472 00:36:52.079 --> 00:36:59.599 his volt? Yeah, what if after they run amok adopt three and one's 473 00:36:59.599 --> 00:37:07.199 acclaim on it was like all emotions three three humans? Right, yeah, 474 00:37:07.440 --> 00:37:12.079 please Spock, do me a favor and don't say it's fascinating, no, 475 00:37:13.280 --> 00:37:17.039 but it is interesting. Yeah, and then you know and then they you 476 00:37:17.039 --> 00:37:21.559 know, they're gonna have their own you know. It's like wait till your 477 00:37:21.599 --> 00:37:29.360 Father gets home starring Leonard bean Boy and to Pring mm hmm. It's just 478 00:37:29.800 --> 00:37:32.159 people would watch it or just like or like like those were like from a 479 00:37:32.199 --> 00:37:40.679 sixties movie title, be like my teenager is a logical so but David it 480 00:37:40.719 --> 00:37:45.360 is David Niven movies where he's like the dad teenage daughters. They had a 481 00:37:45.400 --> 00:37:49.559 stuff a wild bikini or other that was. I just love those movies. 482 00:37:49.599 --> 00:37:53.159 But it's always possibly madness, it possibly is. Well, then listening to 483 00:37:53.199 --> 00:37:57.599 all the Bings and bangs music and just at the noise, like you know, 484 00:37:57.679 --> 00:38:00.000 like David Niven wasn't chasing that girl around the set. You're anything like 485 00:38:00.079 --> 00:38:04.760 me, you have a certain tendency to put things off until the very last 486 00:38:04.760 --> 00:38:07.679 minute. For instances, John will tell you I tend to put off writing 487 00:38:07.719 --> 00:38:12.719 my column for Commentary magazine until the very wells'll actually pass the last minute, 488 00:38:13.159 --> 00:38:15.559 which is sort of you know, well, I don't really believe it's there's 489 00:38:15.559 --> 00:38:20.159 a last minute, because I get they always tell me it's the last minute, 490 00:38:20.159 --> 00:38:22.039 but this always seems to be extra time. So most of the time 491 00:38:22.239 --> 00:38:25.760 my procrastination works out. 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So go to Ladderlife dot com slash glop today 509 00:39:30.880 --> 00:39:37.000 to see if you're instantly approved. That's Ladder Ladder Life All one word dot 510 00:39:37.039 --> 00:39:42.400 com slash glop, Ladderlife dot com slash glop, and we thank Ladder Life 511 00:39:42.679 --> 00:39:50.159 for sponsoring the Glop podcast. So these are great spinoff ideas that were There 512 00:39:50.239 --> 00:39:54.079 was a spinoff episode if you may remember, on Star Trek that didn't work 513 00:39:55.000 --> 00:40:00.519 was the spinoff episode where there was the Guy from the Future comes in nineteen 514 00:40:00.639 --> 00:40:06.360 sixty eight and Cook Terry Gar Yeah, and Kookie Terry Gar. You know, 515 00:40:06.519 --> 00:40:08.400 he reveals himself to her. Then they're going to go off and have 516 00:40:08.519 --> 00:40:15.920 adventures together. I mean, the spinoffs themselves are all there's a whole separate 517 00:40:15.960 --> 00:40:19.280 thing to do it. Beverly Hills bunts that was. That was a good 518 00:40:19.280 --> 00:40:24.000 one to remember that from Hill Street Blues when bunts the becomes a like a 519 00:40:24.079 --> 00:40:30.400 p I or something and with his with his sidekick informant, they both moved 520 00:40:30.440 --> 00:40:32.039 out, all right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 521 00:40:32.079 --> 00:40:37.079 that was. That was really a winner. Yeah. I mean, I 522 00:40:37.159 --> 00:40:39.639 think the spinoff things are interesting because I mean you know that they thought about 523 00:40:39.679 --> 00:40:45.760 it with like family ties, like Okay, there's a planning session where they 524 00:40:45.760 --> 00:40:46.679 thought, like, you know, Mallory's not really doing it for us, 525 00:40:46.719 --> 00:40:51.599 and Tina. We love Tina. Tina's great. We love Tina. But 526 00:40:51.800 --> 00:40:57.280 I'm just thinking, go with me here, it's Michael J. Fox in 527 00:40:57.400 --> 00:41:01.000 college or out of college or work. It's it's Alex Pekeaton his life. 528 00:41:01.360 --> 00:41:06.159 I guarant I mean, this is impossible. That wasn't There's not I bet 529 00:41:06.159 --> 00:41:09.440 you was never going to do it. He had already become one of the 530 00:41:09.480 --> 00:41:17.320 two How many of you play play Norman Lear shows were legit spinoffs versus the 531 00:41:17.400 --> 00:41:22.519 sort of like we're gonna do this show anyway, let's introduce the character on 532 00:41:22.519 --> 00:41:29.360 a popular show, right, because there's Maud, there's Jefferson's missing a couple 533 00:41:30.079 --> 00:41:35.119 Good Times, Good Times, Good Times, which is a spinoff of Maud. 534 00:41:35.199 --> 00:41:40.000 That's right, Maud as the role was was most he made her made 535 00:41:40.119 --> 00:41:45.400 right somehow ends up in Chicago, even though Maude lives in Westchester. Uh. 536 00:41:45.519 --> 00:41:52.880 Yeah, the Jefferson's then, Uh, I feel like there's another's Archie 537 00:41:52.920 --> 00:41:55.760 Bunker, which is the is the mothership? Right? That's probably more one 538 00:41:55.800 --> 00:42:01.199 day. At the time, Archie didn't have spinoffs going through all the names. 539 00:42:01.280 --> 00:42:04.960 Yeah, I'm trying to think. No. Gary Marshall was the king 540 00:42:05.000 --> 00:42:09.599 of the spinoff, right, so he had Yeah, Vernon Shirley, Happy 541 00:42:09.679 --> 00:42:15.760 Days spins off la Vernon Shirley and Mark and Mind. Well, that's that's 542 00:42:15.760 --> 00:42:22.239 what I had in choc also a spinoff of Happy Days. I think when 543 00:42:22.239 --> 00:42:24.239 we're at Joni Loves Choccy, we can stop. But so, what was 544 00:42:24.280 --> 00:42:29.639 there any idea of doing a Mark TV show before, Like, did the 545 00:42:29.679 --> 00:42:32.440 idea for doing a More TV show come from the Mark versus fawns? Yes, 546 00:42:34.159 --> 00:42:37.079 yes, yes, okay, yes, yeah. The story. The 547 00:42:37.199 --> 00:42:42.519 story was that Mark that Gary Marshall claims that his kid said, I want 548 00:42:42.519 --> 00:42:46.559 you to do a show about a character called Mark from Orc. So he's 549 00:42:46.599 --> 00:42:51.559 like, yeah, all right, I'll do it. Yeah, let fin'll 550 00:42:51.639 --> 00:42:54.360 make by you know, so that somebody right, and then somebody says you 551 00:42:54.440 --> 00:42:59.800 gotta cast this this crazy guy, Robin Williams, and then the rest is 552 00:43:00.519 --> 00:43:06.400 sort of history, a total happenstance. I mean, the Fillings obviously was 553 00:43:06.440 --> 00:43:09.199 the biggest breakout character ever, right, and he was not supposed to be 554 00:43:10.480 --> 00:43:14.280 like what the show, who the show was about? I mean they actually 555 00:43:14.360 --> 00:43:19.039 killed poor Rickie Cunningham's brother just to make more room for the funds. But 556 00:43:19.199 --> 00:43:22.199 yeah, yeah, but he went upstairs, Yeah, went upstairs. No, 557 00:43:22.320 --> 00:43:27.000 But the comedy of the funds it's you create this kind of like wanna 558 00:43:27.079 --> 00:43:31.599 be Marlon Brando in the Wild, one tough character and you cast this five 559 00:43:31.639 --> 00:43:37.320 foot seven inch tall jew from West Dady fourth Street, the other jew from 560 00:43:37.320 --> 00:43:39.599 West Dady fourth Street. John, I didn't know he was from my block. 561 00:43:40.559 --> 00:43:45.440 Yeah, he lived. He grew up between on eighty four between uh 562 00:43:45.039 --> 00:43:52.239 Central Park West and Columbus. Interesting. His father was a German Jewish refugee, 563 00:43:52.400 --> 00:43:55.800 was a doctor, apparently very very mean to him. So, by 564 00:43:55.800 --> 00:43:59.559 the way, you also have as you may or may not know, Robert 565 00:43:59.559 --> 00:44:06.119 Evans. Robert Evans grew up in Jonah's building. That's interesting. I was 566 00:44:06.159 --> 00:44:07.400 just gonna go back to the Fons for a minute, because there's a very 567 00:44:07.400 --> 00:44:10.400 it's it's a small not a small window, but it was the window was 568 00:44:10.480 --> 00:44:17.559 closing on the ability and willingness of audiences to accept that a kind of a 569 00:44:17.760 --> 00:44:25.400 nasally voiced, ready unprepossessing Jewish boy was going to be the Fons like that, 570 00:44:25.400 --> 00:44:31.320 that's like peak network TV casting. And I happen to know the person 571 00:44:31.400 --> 00:44:37.960 that he tested against for that role, and you think, well, needed 572 00:44:38.039 --> 00:44:43.639 one of those people should be playing that part. Uh and and and you 573 00:44:44.320 --> 00:44:46.800 you so it's like you could see, like Henry Winkler, who was a 574 00:44:46.840 --> 00:44:52.039 wonderful actor and an incredibly nice person, where we go, hey, Richie, 575 00:44:52.199 --> 00:44:53.559 I want to and then be caught and were like, I wonder if 576 00:44:53.559 --> 00:44:58.920 I could go and just get another belly like he was completely not right for 577 00:44:58.960 --> 00:45:01.760 that part, but he did. But audiences would accept that. Audiences would 578 00:45:01.760 --> 00:45:09.440 accept like, uh, handsome men that the character like okay, oh, 579 00:45:09.440 --> 00:45:13.480 he's a handsome guy and he's like, you know, a little heavy and 580 00:45:13.719 --> 00:45:20.440 balding and like it's very strange. Just the willingness of people in show business 581 00:45:20.559 --> 00:45:25.000 and in any audience presumably to accept just all right. Well, Henry Winkler, 582 00:45:25.880 --> 00:45:30.039 he kind of attested it in the Lords of Flatbush though, right, 583 00:45:30.039 --> 00:45:34.039 he played like a yeah, yeah, that was yeah, so Lord's So 584 00:45:34.320 --> 00:45:42.400 Lord's a Flatbush was made a cheap uh movie released in like seventy three something 585 00:45:42.400 --> 00:45:47.719 like that was made on the heels of American Graffiti. Ran Graffiti's existence is 586 00:45:47.800 --> 00:45:57.440 what is deemed responsible for Happy Days, although Happy Days was actually originated as 587 00:45:57.440 --> 00:46:05.679 a pilot before American Graffiti was made with Ron Howard, and it was because 588 00:46:05.800 --> 00:46:09.960 Ron Howardward pilot. No it was. It ended up airing on Love American 589 00:46:10.039 --> 00:46:14.000 style. It was a but I mean I mean that, I mean that 590 00:46:14.079 --> 00:46:21.360 the the it was internally called the Ron Howard Show. Okay, because so 591 00:46:21.440 --> 00:46:27.159 Ronnie had Ronnie Howard, So he's in this pilot that doesn't becomes an unsold 592 00:46:27.159 --> 00:46:30.199 pilot and has put on Love American style, and George Lucas has shown the 593 00:46:30.239 --> 00:46:37.320 pilot and casts him an American graffiti. American Graffiti then reignites the existence of 594 00:46:37.400 --> 00:46:43.519 Happy Days. This busted Ron Howard Pilot, which then is turned into a 595 00:46:43.559 --> 00:46:49.360 show for network television. In the meantime, somebody makes the Lords of Flatbush 596 00:46:49.400 --> 00:46:54.400 and Henry Winkler and Silester Stallone and an actor named Perry King or three of 597 00:46:54.400 --> 00:46:59.039 the Lords of Flatbush. The fourth Lord of Flatbush, as I just read, 598 00:46:59.719 --> 00:47:06.079 was going to be Richard Gear, but Richard Gere Sylvester Stallone got into 599 00:47:06.079 --> 00:47:10.719 a fist fight like the first couple of days that they were on set together, 600 00:47:12.360 --> 00:47:16.039 and Stallone said either he goes or I go, and Gear was the 601 00:47:16.079 --> 00:47:22.880 one who went. And yet Richard Gear became Richard Gear because Stallone had been 602 00:47:22.920 --> 00:47:30.920 in the Lord's a Flatbush with Henry Winkler when he wrote Rocky. He said 603 00:47:31.000 --> 00:47:35.719 to Henry Winkler, can you help me sell this? Actually it was a 604 00:47:35.760 --> 00:47:38.119 script before Rocky that he ends up making as a movie called Paradise Alley, 605 00:47:38.360 --> 00:47:45.159 and Henry Winkler gave him fifteen thousand dollars and brought him out of la here's 606 00:47:45.239 --> 00:47:47.800 lying. I'm gonna give you fifteen thousand dollars because you're you're a wonderful man. 607 00:47:49.079 --> 00:47:52.360 Yeah, this is a wonderful script. So he brought him out, 608 00:47:52.400 --> 00:47:57.199 he let him live in his garage or something like that, and then stallone 609 00:47:57.280 --> 00:48:02.360 became stallone. So Henry Winkler is not only response for his own pretty remarkable 610 00:48:02.599 --> 00:48:07.639 career that has had this latent life resurgence on Barry where I guess he's won 611 00:48:07.719 --> 00:48:10.400 two emmis or something like. He was also great in Parks and rac He 612 00:48:10.480 --> 00:48:14.760 was a minor character, but he was very good. He's great in everything, 613 00:48:14.880 --> 00:48:17.039 right, but he But but it's very rare to have a guy have 614 00:48:17.199 --> 00:48:21.239 this like moment in the Sun and the Lates and then sort of come back 615 00:48:21.239 --> 00:48:24.440 as a critics darling like forty years later, which is what happened with Barry. 616 00:48:24.480 --> 00:48:29.400 But Henry Winkler is responsible for still less balloone's career. And now I 617 00:48:29.440 --> 00:48:32.159 will I tell you my Henry Winkler's story that I also heard Gary Marshall Henry 618 00:48:32.199 --> 00:48:37.119 Winkler's story. Please think that because it's impossible to understand, I think, 619 00:48:37.159 --> 00:48:45.199 to really get what that level of TV fame did to a person, like 620 00:48:46.119 --> 00:48:51.480 in the number of people, the millions of people that saw you, and 621 00:48:51.519 --> 00:48:55.920 then the craze about you, and you went from being it's an actor and 622 00:48:55.960 --> 00:49:00.440 a pilot or an actor as an ensemble player, to suddenly being everywhere. 623 00:49:01.639 --> 00:49:05.320 It did did a number on you, I think. And so there's there's 624 00:49:05.320 --> 00:49:10.760 a moment I think in the first season of Happy Days when uh, he's 625 00:49:12.119 --> 00:49:17.400 Gary Marshall and Henry Winkler walking down the path Paramount I think it was stage 626 00:49:17.440 --> 00:49:21.119 twenty four to where they were twenty three to where they shot Happy Days, 627 00:49:21.320 --> 00:49:24.960 and there's a tour group going by, and the tour group sees him in 628 00:49:25.039 --> 00:49:29.239 the distance and they start to freak out because it's the most famous person in 629 00:49:29.239 --> 00:49:35.280 America and uh, and there's the tour group passes. The tour guide says, 630 00:49:35.960 --> 00:49:37.880 hi, Henry, would you like to say hello to the to the 631 00:49:37.880 --> 00:49:40.719 tour And he turns to the guy and he says, no, no, 632 00:49:40.960 --> 00:49:45.760 I can't right now, I'm talking to my producer. And they kept walking, 633 00:49:45.800 --> 00:49:49.440 and then the tour went up by, and then Henry and then then 634 00:49:49.519 --> 00:49:54.719 Gary Marshall turned to Henry and said to come here and pulled him into an 635 00:49:54.760 --> 00:50:00.760 alcove in one of the office buildings and threw him up against the wall and 636 00:50:00.840 --> 00:50:05.800 said, I put your fin face on TV. I'll take your face off. 637 00:50:06.480 --> 00:50:09.000 You go say you go be nice to those people. And Henry Winkler 638 00:50:09.119 --> 00:50:12.239 was like, oh, yeah, of course, of course of yes, 639 00:50:12.360 --> 00:50:15.960 and he ran up to the to the to the tour And apparently it was 640 00:50:15.039 --> 00:50:19.039 the one and only time that Henry Winkler, early in his career, probably 641 00:50:19.199 --> 00:50:22.400 the first month of his superstardom, kind of like that, oh okay, 642 00:50:22.519 --> 00:50:28.440 well this is what this is now you people, everybody's got some unfinished business 643 00:50:28.480 --> 00:50:30.559 with you, and you just got to be nice. And that's kind of 644 00:50:30.559 --> 00:50:36.079 what he was from then that moment on, you know. And speaking of 645 00:50:36.480 --> 00:50:38.639 that moment on, I do need to say this that our next partners, 646 00:50:38.679 --> 00:50:44.440 AGU one that's Athletic Greens won the daily foundational and tritional supplement that supports whole 647 00:50:44.440 --> 00:50:46.599 body health. 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Try ag one and get a free one year supply of vitamins 664 00:51:43.199 --> 00:51:45.840 D and five free AGU one travel packs with your first purchase, which you'll 665 00:51:45.840 --> 00:51:52.079 probably feel like me. Prefer Go to drink ag one dot com slash blop 666 00:51:52.159 --> 00:51:55.199 that's drink ag one all one word dot com slash Blop and check it out, 667 00:51:55.239 --> 00:52:00.519 and we thank HG one for sponsoring the Glop podcast. Okay, we 668 00:52:00.519 --> 00:52:04.880 haven't talked about women, so I think we should talk about indelible women on 669 00:52:04.920 --> 00:52:09.800 television, the first probably being Lucy from I Love Lucy, a show that 670 00:52:09.840 --> 00:52:15.719 I am alone in the universe and actually actively disliking. But you can't argue 671 00:52:15.800 --> 00:52:23.119 with seventy five years of success or whatever it's been, and and and you 672 00:52:23.119 --> 00:52:27.280 know, immortality. But there are two or three women that I would I 673 00:52:27.280 --> 00:52:34.000 would mention in this regard. Mary Tyler Moore, maybe the only person in 674 00:52:34.679 --> 00:52:37.679 uh Jonah's category, right, which when he said, look, no one 675 00:52:37.719 --> 00:52:40.800 really cares about Barney Miller, no one really cares about Alex Reeg or no 676 00:52:40.800 --> 00:52:45.719 one really cares about the this character that I guess they used to call the 677 00:52:45.800 --> 00:52:49.559 hub, right, sort of the character the person who's at the center of 678 00:52:49.559 --> 00:52:52.880 a show. And then all the supporting players are like spokes and they and 679 00:52:52.960 --> 00:52:57.519 they're they get to be crazy, and she's supposed to be kind of the 680 00:52:57.599 --> 00:53:00.639 hub that's supposed to be normal. It's everybody who everybody I work with crazy, 681 00:53:01.320 --> 00:53:12.760 Yeah, Dean Jones character, right, you guys are insane, except 682 00:53:12.880 --> 00:53:15.639 I can't do that, that would be lying all that stuff. Yeah, 683 00:53:15.360 --> 00:53:22.239 except that Mary telling More really was a like an astoundingly good comedian and in 684 00:53:22.320 --> 00:53:28.480 a remarkable kind of she was she could generate laughs and be the still center 685 00:53:29.079 --> 00:53:30.800 almost at the same time. And of course she was also you know, 686 00:53:30.880 --> 00:53:37.519 the kind of portrait of the neurotic young American wife, uh, you know, 687 00:53:37.719 --> 00:53:40.639 right before the feminine mystique on the Dick Van Dyke show. That's two 688 00:53:42.280 --> 00:53:51.159 parts that It's very rare that anybody two central roles on two of the greatest 689 00:53:51.159 --> 00:53:53.079 shows ever, and she was one, and the other is Julia Louis Dreyfuss, 690 00:53:53.079 --> 00:53:58.440 who has had also arguably too right. So Selena Meyer on Veep, 691 00:53:59.159 --> 00:54:02.719 who is in a out in character, and Anne Lane on Seinfeld. And 692 00:54:02.760 --> 00:54:06.840 then she had a show in the middle, the Old Christine, which which 693 00:54:06.880 --> 00:54:09.159 is fine, it's just not as as great as the others. But I 694 00:54:09.159 --> 00:54:13.719 mean, you know, that's just like an incredible thing. And I would 695 00:54:13.719 --> 00:54:17.480 add Elizabeth Montgomery because not only was she my first love, but if you 696 00:54:17.519 --> 00:54:22.440 sort of think about it, that show was like that ran for ten years 697 00:54:22.960 --> 00:54:27.559 and it was all her. It was a show. There was nothing else 698 00:54:27.639 --> 00:54:30.519 to that show. I mean, there was Paul Lynde Well, I mean 699 00:54:30.599 --> 00:54:34.159 in this Morehead, but like I would say, yeah, she that was 700 00:54:34.239 --> 00:54:37.639 I mean, but that character, I mean it was the whole point of 701 00:54:37.679 --> 00:54:39.519 that character was that she's supposed to be normal, so she was like she 702 00:54:39.599 --> 00:54:43.679 was normal all the time, and she was definitely surrounded by crazies. Right. 703 00:54:43.800 --> 00:54:46.760 Yeah. The weird thing of that show is that probably the least attractive, 704 00:54:47.199 --> 00:54:57.639 least appealing, most reprehensible character in all of American literature is Darren. 705 00:54:57.800 --> 00:55:04.480 Darren Stevens. Yes, her horrible, horrible husband who is just reprehensible on 706 00:55:04.599 --> 00:55:07.480 every level. He marries her. She I mean, this is like a 707 00:55:07.559 --> 00:55:14.800 feminist anily because he marries this woman with enormous powers. And he says, 708 00:55:15.679 --> 00:55:17.519 I still want you to vacuum. I want you to clean. I want 709 00:55:17.559 --> 00:55:21.719 you to clean that toilet. I want you to get down your hands and 710 00:55:21.760 --> 00:55:25.000 knees or that scrub brush. I want you to clean my toilet. And 711 00:55:25.079 --> 00:55:30.400 she's like, okay, I want you to make Andrew Tato sitcom stars. 712 00:55:30.480 --> 00:55:36.960 Don't blink it, make it like that's just bananas. He totally like that. 713 00:55:37.199 --> 00:55:42.400 It's so bizarre. I tell you that I dream of Jeanie thing I 714 00:55:42.400 --> 00:55:50.639 wanted to do years ago, when I guess what, Sony owned it. 715 00:55:50.679 --> 00:55:52.599 They were talking about making a movie about it, and I told my agent, 716 00:55:52.800 --> 00:55:54.440 look, I just gonna get in the room. I need to pitch 717 00:55:54.480 --> 00:55:57.920 my version. I don't want to write it. I just want to pitch 718 00:55:57.960 --> 00:56:00.880 my version, which is I dream of Jeanie. I think it was a 719 00:56:00.880 --> 00:56:06.760 pretty good movie, like a pretty good show. I wanted to expand their 720 00:56:06.960 --> 00:56:12.079 entire relationship, not just in the early sixties of the Space program, but 721 00:56:12.119 --> 00:56:15.400 then the late sixties and the women's movement, and they get, they're married, 722 00:56:15.480 --> 00:56:17.679 have children, they get divorced because she goes through this women's thing, 723 00:56:17.760 --> 00:56:22.119 she realizes, my god, you kept me in a bottle. I had 724 00:56:22.159 --> 00:56:27.760 to walk around in a little bikini. You made me call you master. 725 00:56:29.000 --> 00:56:30.400 And he's like, no, no, no, no, no no. 726 00:56:30.440 --> 00:56:32.599 That was your thing. That's what you that's your thing, that's your baggage 727 00:56:32.599 --> 00:56:36.280 you brought to this relation. So they have so I thought it like, 728 00:56:36.320 --> 00:56:38.119 just did the whole their whole relationship. Of course, they end up falling 729 00:56:38.119 --> 00:56:42.760 in love again because they can do that now. They didn't bring all their 730 00:56:42.800 --> 00:56:47.400 weird cultural stuff. Her need to call him master, his embarrassment of her 731 00:56:47.840 --> 00:56:53.039 like he was embarrassed by her. Uh, it's just so incredibly rich. 732 00:56:54.559 --> 00:56:58.719 The other interesting thing about bo which I think we may have talked about this 733 00:56:58.719 --> 00:57:02.159 once before, we talked about a lot, but which was very large in 734 00:57:04.039 --> 00:57:08.440 the cannon of this podcast. I was wondering them. So, so she 735 00:57:08.840 --> 00:57:13.119 is the normal one and everyone's crazy, right, and all her relatives are 736 00:57:13.119 --> 00:57:17.360 great, right, they're also all gay and I'm not just in real life 737 00:57:17.360 --> 00:57:21.440 oh the witch. Yeah, not only are they, they're all there, 738 00:57:21.480 --> 00:57:23.480 they were all gay in real life. That there's anything wrong with that at 739 00:57:23.519 --> 00:57:29.480 all. So Morris Evans, who played her father, who was a Shakespearean 740 00:57:29.519 --> 00:57:36.159 actor, the America's most successful Shakespearean actor, was a homosexual. Agnes Moorehead 741 00:57:36.400 --> 00:57:39.880 was a closet and lesbian. Paul Lynde was Paul Lynde all of her. 742 00:57:40.039 --> 00:57:45.880 Any time there was a relative, Lynde was Paul. Yes, anytime there 743 00:57:45.960 --> 00:57:52.760 was a relative, the relative was So it was as though she was from 744 00:57:52.840 --> 00:58:00.000 this gay world, and she was. She emerged from the SKay world as 745 00:58:00.159 --> 00:58:07.440 a straight, as a as a heterosexual woman. And the man that she 746 00:58:07.519 --> 00:58:16.039 chooses for herself is this domineering, bigot, horrible person and and acts as 747 00:58:16.079 --> 00:58:24.039 though her world is repulsive and frightening and evil, right right. And you 748 00:58:24.079 --> 00:58:28.920 know that's where if you were going to remake The Witch, you would have 749 00:58:28.960 --> 00:58:35.199 to sort of remake it as a kind of radical Parst way, because because 750 00:58:35.559 --> 00:58:38.360 you know, what did they? What did they? What was so terrible? 751 00:58:38.719 --> 00:58:44.440 Now I understand the whole idea was that Darren didn't want to live. 752 00:58:45.079 --> 00:58:47.280 It's as though he married a very rich woman and he didn't want to live 753 00:58:47.320 --> 00:58:52.280 off of her money. That's that's fine, right, But Denny's yelling at 754 00:58:52.320 --> 00:58:58.480 her and he like scolds her and he contest and yeah, and I just 755 00:58:58.519 --> 00:59:00.840 feel to me, like, first of all, I was thought that mad 756 00:59:00.920 --> 00:59:05.760 Men, the tea show Madman was basically the drama version of which because you 757 00:59:05.800 --> 00:59:09.639 know this silver haired account executive and the guy with the little blonde wife at 758 00:59:09.679 --> 00:59:15.239 home in Connecticut. The weirdest thing about it to me was like it worked 759 00:59:15.239 --> 00:59:17.519 on two two levels. Right. What he didn't like about her was not 760 00:59:17.559 --> 00:59:23.400 just her circumstances, but what her her intrinsic identity. YEA, Like he 761 00:59:23.440 --> 00:59:29.800 didn't like her being. He didn't like not who her personality. It was 762 00:59:29.840 --> 00:59:34.679 that he didn't like who she was and he and that to me or he 763 00:59:34.880 --> 00:59:37.599 was bizarre or he was scared of who she was or whatever or whatever like, 764 00:59:37.679 --> 00:59:42.800 but but it's still like he didn't like there's nothing about her he really 765 00:59:42.840 --> 00:59:45.599 truly found appealing. And then the question you have to ask yourself is like, 766 00:59:45.599 --> 00:59:50.239 because now you can like really psychotherapize these characters, is like what was 767 00:59:50.280 --> 00:59:54.639 her problem? Like how low was her self esteem? How much did she 768 00:59:54.719 --> 01:00:00.719 hate herself? That this was that she she was with Durwood, Like what 769 01:00:00.760 --> 01:00:02.159 was going on? Yeah? And then they have a kid, right, 770 01:00:02.199 --> 01:00:06.440 they have a baby, and the baby grow it is two years older cattle 771 01:00:06.840 --> 01:00:09.760 and then has magical powers herself and what does he make her do? She 772 01:00:09.840 --> 01:00:14.840 has to say, you're not allowed, don't do it, you can't use 773 01:00:14.880 --> 01:00:19.159 your magic, don't be yourself, don't be yourself, hide yourself away. 774 01:00:19.519 --> 01:00:24.519 It's very interesting and it was totally uncontroversial and that it was like considered Anna 775 01:00:24.559 --> 01:00:31.280 Dyne and Banal and they moved into Dakota and all the Jewish neighbors, you 776 01:00:31.360 --> 01:00:39.320 know, hail Satan when they see the baby. I mean there you go, 777 01:00:43.119 --> 01:00:45.360 like, I don't quite I've been meaning to ask this. Now we've 778 01:00:45.360 --> 01:00:51.079 been doing this for like a decade or something, this podcast, and like 779 01:00:51.199 --> 01:00:55.599 I hold my personal obsessions about pop culture somewhat in restraint here. Yeah, 780 01:00:57.480 --> 01:01:00.199 really like fortun you guys to talk about the Star Trek, all that watch, 781 01:01:00.280 --> 01:01:02.719 any of these kinds of things that I was, you guys, the 782 01:01:02.760 --> 01:01:07.880 gravitational poll of Bewitched for you guys so profound I suspect that there was not 783 01:01:07.920 --> 01:01:14.519 a shoeshine guy on the Eastern seaboard where Rob hasn't informed the guy. And 784 01:01:14.639 --> 01:01:19.960 another thing about Darren, I mean it's like, oh yeah, I mean 785 01:01:20.000 --> 01:01:22.880 the thing about it is that I just what I can't believe is that there 786 01:01:22.960 --> 01:01:30.639 was a time when this stuff nobody remarked on it. Yeah, when when 787 01:01:30.639 --> 01:01:36.960 it was so bald, the it's the analog to be a Paul Lynde or 788 01:01:37.000 --> 01:01:39.039 Liberacci at the time when people just thought, oh, just he's just he's 789 01:01:39.079 --> 01:01:42.840 just a guy in sequin hot pants, that's all. Yeah, right, 790 01:01:42.840 --> 01:01:46.920 Well, and like no, like this's like this is a direct crazy Freudian 791 01:01:47.000 --> 01:01:52.079 projection that that's so obvious that you think was anybody writing about this at the 792 01:01:52.119 --> 01:01:55.760 time? Yet nobody was. And it is interesting because it's like some of 793 01:01:55.760 --> 01:02:01.239 those cultural products like you mentioned David Niven, you and the generation gap as 794 01:02:01.280 --> 01:02:06.920 seeing through the eyes of David Niven. You know, it's like he's what 795 01:02:07.119 --> 01:02:10.480 matters, you know, is the I don't understand what her hair is long, 796 01:02:10.559 --> 01:02:15.840 and she's not wearing shoes, my daughter. But something must be done 797 01:02:15.840 --> 01:02:19.719 about this. This is crazy, you know, like that, all of 798 01:02:19.719 --> 01:02:25.719 which is of course a code for being sexually active, right, that's right, 799 01:02:25.880 --> 01:02:31.320 Okay, So, but there was this stutter step in in sort of 800 01:02:31.360 --> 01:02:36.880 like square popular culture where it could still be the case that on a show 801 01:02:36.920 --> 01:02:42.559 like Bewitched, there could be an episode where like she doesn't have a bank 802 01:02:42.599 --> 01:02:47.440 account because her husband is the one with the bank account or something. She's 803 01:02:47.440 --> 01:02:51.800 a lady. Yeah, and so and this is we're talking about like nineteen 804 01:02:52.000 --> 01:02:54.079 seven, you know, like by this point, it's nineteen seventy. It's 805 01:02:54.119 --> 01:03:00.679 not like nineteen sixty, you know. And and it takes no account except 806 01:03:00.719 --> 01:03:04.079 for the your favorite Bob Hope and a hippie wig, you know, some 807 01:03:04.679 --> 01:03:08.679 episode where somebody's a hippie and I, you know, groovy, I dig 808 01:03:08.679 --> 01:03:14.199 it, I dig it too. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, So so 809 01:03:14.320 --> 01:03:19.800 it's just interesting because then once that stuff kind of cleared through the system or 810 01:03:19.840 --> 01:03:22.679 the people who produced it or made it or something like that. We're all 811 01:03:22.800 --> 01:03:25.920 kind of shunted to one side because, you know, you could spend four 812 01:03:27.000 --> 01:03:30.119 hundred thousand dollars making Easy Rider and then make seventy five million dollars off Easy 813 01:03:30.239 --> 01:03:35.880 Rider, where you were Norman Lear making these shows that got these enormous audiences. 814 01:03:36.159 --> 01:03:39.039 Then that then that was all dead like that, that stuff just like 815 01:03:39.800 --> 01:03:45.800 disappeared as though it had never existed before, right, and that The Witch 816 01:03:45.920 --> 01:03:54.239 was like the tail end of that three sixties thing. You know. But 817 01:03:54.280 --> 01:03:58.199 I just want all of those people. I just don't. I just think 818 01:03:58.679 --> 01:04:02.239 I'm just I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna probably I don't know, I'm speculating, 819 01:04:02.760 --> 01:04:10.159 but all those people who wrote those shows, who created them, who wrote 820 01:04:10.159 --> 01:04:15.519 them, who supervised every episode, all of those people were you know what. 821 01:04:15.719 --> 01:04:18.719 They weren't educated necessarily, but they were They were fully, fully aware 822 01:04:18.960 --> 01:04:24.679 of Freudian analysis. They were all like, they're all kind of New York 823 01:04:24.760 --> 01:04:29.400 kind of show business figures. They weren't like guys from Montana. They were 824 01:04:29.440 --> 01:04:33.920 guys from you know, yeah, West eighty sixth Street, and they and 825 01:04:33.920 --> 01:04:36.280 they I'm sure they all went to their analysts the way they always did, 826 01:04:36.360 --> 01:04:39.000 you know, they always you know, I gotta go to my analysts, 827 01:04:39.039 --> 01:04:43.199 always like that. So they were familiar with the idea that you project your 828 01:04:43.360 --> 01:04:47.159 fears and your imagination onto your work. And yet no one ever said that's 829 01:04:47.199 --> 01:04:51.480 this is weird, this is weird. Why why doesn't Darren just let her 830 01:04:51.719 --> 01:04:56.719 you know, Wiggler knows and you know, fix the dishwasher, like, 831 01:04:57.400 --> 01:05:00.679 but there's nobody who said that, Yeah, there's another aspect to that show. 832 01:05:00.719 --> 01:05:04.960 And then I was noticing I was reading I've been reading the spy Washington, 833 01:05:05.039 --> 01:05:10.440 Cloak and Dagger novels of a writer named Ross Thomas who was really fantastic, 834 01:05:10.559 --> 01:05:15.840 very popular in the eighties, Briar Patch, the Cold War swap, 835 01:05:15.960 --> 01:05:20.679 like he was like a Washington novelist, novelist about you know, and like 836 01:05:20.920 --> 01:05:27.320 Bewitched. In these books, these characters stop every five minutes to have a 837 01:05:27.400 --> 01:05:30.199 drink. There's always like and then I had a scotch, and then I 838 01:05:30.280 --> 01:05:34.119 waited by the phone until you know, the until the gangster called, and 839 01:05:34.159 --> 01:05:38.719 then I looked at the bottle, I had another scotch, and Bewitched they're 840 01:05:38.800 --> 01:05:46.559 drinking constantly. This was a culture of kind of primordial alcoholism, like drinking 841 01:05:46.719 --> 01:05:51.440 was so central to the lives of the people. I'm sure Thomas was an 842 01:05:51.440 --> 01:05:58.679 alcoholic. You can't write about a life in which alcohol is so central, 843 01:05:58.719 --> 01:06:01.519 no matter what year you're in or where you are, anything like that. 844 01:06:01.920 --> 01:06:06.000 And I'm sure that was true of the people on Bewitched, because it's like, 845 01:06:06.320 --> 01:06:10.079 pour me a drink, I'll have another drink. Here's a drink, 846 01:06:10.239 --> 01:06:15.000 you know, like a picture, and then at and then and then that 847 01:06:15.119 --> 01:06:17.800 all that's a bottle of gin. Yeah, And then that all went away. 848 01:06:18.199 --> 01:06:23.760 There was some point at which the culture of the isn't this hilarious? 849 01:06:23.880 --> 01:06:30.000 Drinking is so funny and everybody does it and we're all gonna drink now vanished, 850 01:06:30.559 --> 01:06:34.440 right. I mean maybe it was replaced by kind of pot jokes. 851 01:06:34.800 --> 01:06:40.679 It certainly has in more recent years. But you know, it was just 852 01:06:40.760 --> 01:06:45.400 like a whole thing in movies, particularly in comedies, that people sat around 853 01:06:45.519 --> 01:06:51.079 drinking and then had a drunken scene and all of that, and and that 854 01:06:51.400 --> 01:06:59.519 suddenly became something that was uncool. That's more remarkable about that era is not 855 01:06:59.760 --> 01:07:03.400 the they have occasionally right too, because like today, you wouldn't sort of 856 01:07:03.400 --> 01:07:08.199 like Chekhov's gun. Right, you wouldn't write characters starting to drink unless it 857 01:07:08.239 --> 01:07:12.679 was going to lead to one of them doing something drunken. Right, Yeah, 858 01:07:12.920 --> 01:07:15.880 what is remarkable and they would regret and regret it. Right, So 859 01:07:15.440 --> 01:07:19.400 Ross and Rachel draw on each other's face, major point, right, And 860 01:07:19.480 --> 01:07:24.440 because otherwise you just wouldn't introduce it except maybe drinking a beer to watch a 861 01:07:24.480 --> 01:07:27.760 football game. Right. And that's the thing. What is remarkable to me 862 01:07:27.800 --> 01:07:30.639 is like a lot of that that fifties and sixties stuff is how well people 863 01:07:30.719 --> 01:07:35.199 handled their alcohol. Right. It wasn't considered like we have to have them 864 01:07:35.280 --> 01:07:38.880 having a martini so they can get drunk later. It was sort of like 865 01:07:39.079 --> 01:07:41.719 we have to have them having a martini because that's what one does at five 866 01:07:41.760 --> 01:07:45.559 o'clock, you know, And that's amazing. Yeah, it's like breathing. 867 01:07:45.119 --> 01:07:50.320 Wouldn't we show them breathing? We would certainly show. But also, now, 868 01:07:50.360 --> 01:07:58.480 if you show anybody drinking, it's got to be put cautionary. Yeah, 869 01:07:58.559 --> 01:08:00.280 yeah, yeah, yeah, like there's got to be It's it's it's 870 01:08:00.320 --> 01:08:03.039 like the new Haze code. Yeah, that's a transgression that must be punished. 871 01:08:03.079 --> 01:08:06.880 You know. Sometimes they'll show on it's weirdly on TikTok, which I 872 01:08:06.920 --> 01:08:10.199 am of course obsessed with, But you're going to TikTok a lot of most 873 01:08:10.239 --> 01:08:13.840 of it, I mean, most of my algorithm anyway, is people cooking 874 01:08:13.880 --> 01:08:19.279 food and movie clips. Yeah, so you know, they'll put a whole 875 01:08:19.279 --> 01:08:23.399 bunch of movies on there and somebody will just upload all these clips. And 876 01:08:23.560 --> 01:08:29.439 even now on TikTok, character smoking bad guy is fuzzed out. No, 877 01:08:29.439 --> 01:08:33.199 no, you can't, it's fuzzed out. Yeah, that is amazing. 878 01:08:33.680 --> 01:08:36.960 All right, Well we we we got to go because we all have hard 879 01:08:36.960 --> 01:08:43.600 outs. So Jonah, are you cnn ing? Uh? This week I 880 01:08:43.600 --> 01:08:47.319 will be on the week's debate. Week we're gonna do with dispatch Live dispatch, 881 01:08:47.800 --> 01:08:50.479 but that I'll be out at that time people listen to this, I'm 882 01:08:50.520 --> 01:08:56.680 gonna go back to working on my memoir hard Out. So that's all I 883 01:08:56.720 --> 01:09:01.359 got. Excellent and Rob Martine any shot of course, every Wednesday, shot 884 01:09:01.399 --> 01:09:05.239 always every week. I assume that you will be writing on your liberation, 885 01:09:05.760 --> 01:09:09.039 your new liberation. Yeah, I mean to the extent that I can. 886 01:09:09.319 --> 01:09:11.319 I mean I'll write about it, but I can't. I mean, there 887 01:09:11.319 --> 01:09:15.960 are no real details of the about the settling of the writer strike. Yes, 888 01:09:15.119 --> 01:09:17.920 yeah, there have been so I don't really know what I mean. 889 01:09:17.960 --> 01:09:21.479 Everyone's talking about what was agreed to and big strides in this or that area, 890 01:09:21.800 --> 01:09:26.640 but you know, it was a very long strike and put a lot 891 01:09:26.640 --> 01:09:30.159 of people in bad shape. So I suspect that a lot of the big 892 01:09:30.199 --> 01:09:34.560 gains are being overstated because at this point, you know there, yeah, 893 01:09:34.640 --> 01:09:40.520 yeah, everyone, I gather that maybe you're going to have some protections against 894 01:09:40.560 --> 01:09:44.720 AI, but that in fact, in writers rooms, most writers will now 895 01:09:44.760 --> 01:09:49.920 be replaced in order to prevent AI by IBM's electrics, So there will be 896 01:09:50.000 --> 01:09:55.920 IM electrics and one one person actually writing all of the scripts while the IBM 897 01:09:55.920 --> 01:10:00.000 s electrics sit there. Uh. Yes, the old like the old exactly. 898 01:10:00.239 --> 01:10:04.600 All right, Well, I'm on the commentary podcast. Uh, you 899 01:10:04.640 --> 01:10:09.720 know, five days a week for my sins and for yours apparently because you 900 01:10:09.880 --> 01:10:14.039 insist on listening, so I insist on continuing to do it. Yeah, 901 01:10:14.079 --> 01:10:17.720 and rob By the Way has a great piece in the current commentary You can 902 01:10:17.760 --> 01:10:23.439 read it a commentary dot org about why Sound of Freedom was such a phenomenon 903 01:10:24.439 --> 01:10:29.800 with actual shoe leather reporting, kind of like Jonah and Iowa. Rob actually 904 01:10:29.920 --> 01:10:34.239 interviews someone in this piece. It's It's land. It's a path breaking Rob 905 01:10:34.319 --> 01:10:38.880 Long column. By the way, I went sideline when you're asking about Iowa. 906 01:10:38.960 --> 01:10:41.880 I just I wanted to let people know in case they're not paying close 907 01:10:41.880 --> 01:10:46.399 attention. I have it from reliable sources that the Iowa Caucuses it's all going 908 01:10:46.439 --> 01:10:53.439 to come down to turn out. Huh really, well, who's gonna who's 909 01:10:53.439 --> 01:10:56.399 gonna shore up the base? So I don't know, Well, you know, 910 01:10:57.439 --> 01:11:00.479 I got ahead the crucial Walkershaw County to find out. It's all question 911 01:11:00.520 --> 01:11:03.359 of who your second choices. That's all, that's all I yeah, yeah, 912 01:11:03.479 --> 01:11:06.000 all right, So we will be back with you in another couple of 913 01:11:06.039 --> 01:11:12.600 weeks. Probably we're just gonna call this the bewitch. I wanted to make 914 01:11:12.640 --> 01:11:16.920 my case Missus Olson from a little house on the prairie, but we got 915 01:11:17.760 --> 01:11:21.399 okay, well we'll turn We'll start with missus Olson. All right, all 916 01:11:21.479 --> 01:11:25.399 right, we're gonna start. And you don't mean you mean a little house. 917 01:11:25.399 --> 01:11:28.079 You don't mean Missus Olson, the coffee lady, remember her. You 918 01:11:28.119 --> 01:11:31.119 mean Nelly Olson or Nelly Olson's mother, Nelly Olson's mother. I think you 919 01:11:31.119 --> 01:11:38.199 can make a whole different case about fantastic villainous characters who own their villainy, 920 01:11:38.479 --> 01:11:41.920 and she was one of the best bad people in the history of television. 921 01:11:42.520 --> 01:11:46.199 There we go. Okay, we're gonna start with good bad people on the 922 01:11:46.199 --> 01:11:51.520 next clop So it's our first preview of coming attractions here at the end rather 923 01:11:51.560 --> 01:12:39.720 than at the beginning. So see it then, hands I come back here? 924 01:12:39.760 --> 01:12:45.239 Do you hear me? All right? Have a cheer weight,