WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.040 --> 00:00:04.160 Hey everyone, This is Chris from Hacking Your Leadership and on today's guest interview, 2 00:00:04.200 --> 00:00:07.559 we're joined by Joe Davis. Joe is a managing director and senior partner 3 00:00:07.559 --> 00:00:10.960 at the Boston Consulting Group, where he's led teams for more than thirty years. 4 00:00:11.320 --> 00:00:14.359 His new book, The Generous Leader, Seven Ways to Give of yourself 5 00:00:14.400 --> 00:00:18.679 for Everyone's Gain, was released yesterday and is already sitting high on several bestseller 6 00:00:18.719 --> 00:00:21.359 lists. Welcome, Joe, say how to our audience. Hello everybody, 7 00:00:21.399 --> 00:00:23.600 Thank you for having me here. Chris, it's a pleasure to have you 8 00:00:23.679 --> 00:00:27.120 on the show. I read somewhere that while there are you know, stories 9 00:00:27.120 --> 00:00:30.519 and insights from throughout your career in this book, that it was your leadership 10 00:00:30.600 --> 00:00:34.679 journey and experience during the COVID pandemic that was the impetus for writing it. 11 00:00:34.759 --> 00:00:38.280 So the first thing I want to ask you is was there a moment sometime 12 00:00:38.320 --> 00:00:42.600 in twenty twenty or twenty twenty one where you remember thinking or realizing that the 13 00:00:42.759 --> 00:00:47.920 characteristics of successful leadership before COVID were no longer enough? You know, I'll 14 00:00:47.960 --> 00:00:52.359 tell you I think the moment probably well, can I use two moments? 15 00:00:52.479 --> 00:00:55.320 Yeah? If you asked for one. I know, I always cheat it, 16 00:00:55.399 --> 00:00:59.960 yeah, I've always One moment was actually I did town halls, which 17 00:01:00.159 --> 00:01:02.359 we all did, but they were a little different in those times, and 18 00:01:02.960 --> 00:01:06.239 the tools were different. We had zoom. Now it was and at the 19 00:01:06.359 --> 00:01:11.959 second town hall I did, I think it was a second from my daughter's 20 00:01:11.000 --> 00:01:15.319 bedroom, just a fluke. I just picked her bedroom. She was growing 21 00:01:15.319 --> 00:01:18.640 and out in the room and had clouds and hearts all over the wall, 22 00:01:18.680 --> 00:01:23.400 which is one thing. And one of my oldest daughter had just returned to 23 00:01:23.519 --> 00:01:27.799 Germany right as you know, all the planes were shutting down and international travel 24 00:01:27.799 --> 00:01:30.879 and everything, so this was quite stressful to us. Then she landed and 25 00:01:30.920 --> 00:01:34.560 sent us a note saying her husband back in California as COVID, and no 26 00:01:34.560 --> 00:01:38.599 one knew what that meant at that time, you remember, And my other 27 00:01:38.680 --> 00:01:42.040 daughter was a nurse at Harbor View, which I think was where the first 28 00:01:42.079 --> 00:01:45.159 case was brought. I can't quite but anyway, very early case. And 29 00:01:45.200 --> 00:01:49.159 I remember I gave this did this town hall and told that story and choked 30 00:01:49.239 --> 00:01:52.640 up because here I am talking about my kids, you know, And that's 31 00:01:52.680 --> 00:02:00.840 just the uncertainty of everything and the outpouring of mostly by email and text of 32 00:02:00.000 --> 00:02:05.200 support and wow, you enabled me to let go a little bit and to 33 00:02:05.280 --> 00:02:07.319 think about my children, you know, and to you know cry if I 34 00:02:07.319 --> 00:02:12.360 felt that crying was so powerful that you know, it just signaled to me. 35 00:02:15.840 --> 00:02:17.039 It depends. Maybe it's by time, the time, you know, 36 00:02:17.120 --> 00:02:21.840 the time and history. But there is more than just the right strategy, 37 00:02:21.840 --> 00:02:23.599 the right vision, the right metrics, the right this, and that there 38 00:02:23.639 --> 00:02:29.520 is actually people looking for you to connect with them in ways that motivatespire them. 39 00:02:30.240 --> 00:02:32.280 The second one is pretty telling for me, which just very powerful, 40 00:02:32.319 --> 00:02:38.120 which you know, this whole concept of taking the other perspectives of another or 41 00:02:38.199 --> 00:02:40.439 living you know, their lived experience isn't yours. And I was talking to 42 00:02:40.479 --> 00:02:46.840 a person at BCG, maybe a second year consultants, and he was on 43 00:02:46.039 --> 00:02:49.520 his bed. I said, what do you do it on the bed? 44 00:02:49.560 --> 00:02:52.199 He said, well, we have a bedroom in a living room and a 45 00:02:52.199 --> 00:02:54.199 little kitchen at and we take off. My daughter gets my wife gets the 46 00:02:54.199 --> 00:02:58.000 living room one week and I get the bed. Then we switch and I 47 00:02:58.000 --> 00:03:00.639 get the living room, she gets the bed. And here I was, 48 00:03:00.719 --> 00:03:02.520 you know, I've been at PC forty years, thirty years in a house 49 00:03:02.560 --> 00:03:06.879 with a lot of pat trips. I thought, wow, this my experience 50 00:03:07.680 --> 00:03:10.560 ain't his or his ain't mine. It was very powerful. And you know, 51 00:03:10.599 --> 00:03:15.439 and how leadership needs more than just the basics. Are critical. Got 52 00:03:15.520 --> 00:03:17.280 hit the numbers, we all know that, but if you want to inspire 53 00:03:17.319 --> 00:03:21.759 motivated people to help you get there, you know, things like understanding their 54 00:03:21.759 --> 00:03:25.680 Olympic lived experience, empathy, sharing a little bit of vulnerability as much as 55 00:03:25.680 --> 00:03:29.800 you're comfortable with is so powerful. I love both those stories, ain't They're 56 00:03:29.800 --> 00:03:37.280 fantastic. I think you made your career during a time when those qualities weren't 57 00:03:37.560 --> 00:03:42.919 ubiquitous or rewarded in a lot of circumstances when it comes to the business world, 58 00:03:43.919 --> 00:03:47.120 and in worst case scenario, they were they were punished, you know, 59 00:03:47.240 --> 00:03:51.599 like it was it was it was seen as as weakness or you know, 60 00:03:51.599 --> 00:03:53.039 if a person is doing this, how the heck are they going to 61 00:03:53.039 --> 00:03:58.159 hold somebody accountable for you know, the numbers are getting getting the scorecards right? 62 00:03:59.639 --> 00:04:02.199 How well? How have you navigated that in the times when it was 63 00:04:03.120 --> 00:04:09.560 not considered a good thing. Yes, it's funny, Chris, because people 64 00:04:09.800 --> 00:04:13.400 who didn't know me said, you're just a tough guy. Numbers numbers one, 65 00:04:13.520 --> 00:04:15.720 so I never lost sight of we have to deliver, and we're going 66 00:04:15.759 --> 00:04:18.000 to deliver, and we're going to grow, We're to make the numbers. 67 00:04:18.519 --> 00:04:23.120 I just believed that I could never do it myself. I you know, 68 00:04:23.439 --> 00:04:27.040 I had some feedback once from my mentor who said, Joe, if I 69 00:04:27.079 --> 00:04:30.600 put you and this other person in a room, four white walls, no 70 00:04:30.639 --> 00:04:32.639 way to get out unless you solve the problem. Now this canna be at 71 00:04:32.759 --> 00:04:35.959 harsh, but he said, you would probably not solve the problem by yourself. 72 00:04:36.120 --> 00:04:39.000 You couldn't get out of the room. The other guy would get out 73 00:04:39.000 --> 00:04:41.240 of the room every time. But then I said, Okay, you have 74 00:04:41.279 --> 00:04:44.399 the solution, now go do it. Get it done. In an organization, 75 00:04:44.639 --> 00:04:46.639 you would get it done one hundred percent of the time. He would 76 00:04:46.680 --> 00:04:48.439 never get it done. You know, partly because you know what you don't 77 00:04:48.480 --> 00:04:51.439 know. You're willing to be collaborative, you know how to inspire and motivate, 78 00:04:51.519 --> 00:04:56.040 you know, et cetera. I think there was enough lessons and signals 79 00:04:56.040 --> 00:04:58.680 in my life that just work pretty well. Although people always thought I was 80 00:04:58.680 --> 00:05:00.360 a numbers person until you got to know, it's kind of funny if you 81 00:05:00.399 --> 00:05:03.399 didn't work with me, because I always hit the numbers. You know, 82 00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:06.480 maybe I'm sure I miss sometimes, but you know, yeah, I mean 83 00:05:06.480 --> 00:05:12.439 it's it's tough to criticize somebody for whatever whatever their style happens to be if 84 00:05:13.720 --> 00:05:17.680 if the numbers are there, and oftentimes the numbers will will get a leader 85 00:05:17.759 --> 00:05:24.199 left alone for a bit. But but if they're leading in a way that 86 00:05:24.720 --> 00:05:29.079 is not the right way in terms of how their people see them, it'll 87 00:05:29.120 --> 00:05:30.879 be short lived. No, no, I agree. You know, someone 88 00:05:30.920 --> 00:05:34.160 asked me about all the tech leaders of our time, and I won't go 89 00:05:34.240 --> 00:05:36.160 into that, but but I did, you know, I said, well, 90 00:05:36.160 --> 00:05:42.279 you're missing such and Adela and and I don't well, G know such, 91 00:05:42.319 --> 00:05:44.839 I don't knows much personally, but you know that felt. You know, 92 00:05:44.879 --> 00:05:47.839 he turned around Microsoft with a vision, but then with culture, he 93 00:05:48.000 --> 00:05:50.680 changed the culture drastically. Let's talk to each other, let's open up, 94 00:05:50.759 --> 00:05:55.720 let's admit failures, I mean, all the classic stuff. So maybe he's 95 00:05:55.759 --> 00:06:00.000 not like some of the Silicon Valley. Well, I call him technical genius. 96 00:06:00.360 --> 00:06:02.040 The genius is technically, of course, you can get a long ways, 97 00:06:02.600 --> 00:06:08.639 but he actually was one who you know us the heart, I guess 98 00:06:08.680 --> 00:06:12.199 you might say, also to motivate, inspire, and it was probably required 99 00:06:12.199 --> 00:06:16.000 to change that place after the Steve Balmer kind of tough guy. No I'm 100 00:06:16.040 --> 00:06:18.600 not saying not a comment on Steve generally, but you know that's at least 101 00:06:18.600 --> 00:06:23.680 the reputation of the place at that time. The other story example you gave 102 00:06:23.720 --> 00:06:27.000 around, you know, seeing the employee on their bed and what they said 103 00:06:27.040 --> 00:06:30.759 about how them and their their wife kind of they they take turns and in 104 00:06:30.839 --> 00:06:35.240 the good space for whatever the meetings were. It is interesting because I think, 105 00:06:35.639 --> 00:06:41.879 you know, when it comes to a lot of the challenges that leaders 106 00:06:42.240 --> 00:06:46.079 navigate in times of challenge and so not just you know, something like COVID, 107 00:06:46.120 --> 00:06:49.759 but you know, if if there's an economic downturn and jobs have to 108 00:06:49.759 --> 00:06:55.399 be you know, let go, or you know anything really where the tough 109 00:06:55.439 --> 00:06:59.920 conversations happen that that no one wants to have, but that are necessary some 110 00:07:00.079 --> 00:07:06.199 times. The ability to not just seem like or or say the words that 111 00:07:08.839 --> 00:07:14.000 indicate you're in the same boat with this person, but actually that you are 112 00:07:14.079 --> 00:07:16.439 in the same boat with them, not that you're just saying it that the 113 00:07:16.519 --> 00:07:24.560 difference in the outcomes are just they're astronomical when it comes to how people will 114 00:07:25.000 --> 00:07:30.600 pull together for an organization versus how they won't just seeing how their leader acts 115 00:07:30.680 --> 00:07:34.519 and how their leader believes that they are all in this together or that they're 116 00:07:34.560 --> 00:07:40.000 not. The lack of empathy and the flippant nature with which some of these 117 00:07:40.000 --> 00:07:43.160 things are done, they just don't go over well. And no matter how 118 00:07:43.160 --> 00:07:46.399 many times it happens. The massive transparency available online to be able to see 119 00:07:46.680 --> 00:07:50.199 that these things don't go over well, and yet they still seem to happen. 120 00:07:50.600 --> 00:07:56.439 It's at best curious to me and at worst just like baffling to me 121 00:07:57.040 --> 00:07:59.959 why they continue to happen. And there are so many good examples too, 122 00:08:00.079 --> 00:08:03.839 so many good examples that are a lauded by the public and by social media, 123 00:08:03.519 --> 00:08:05.560 that you would think some of these some of these leaders would take a 124 00:08:05.600 --> 00:08:09.600 lesson or at least do some research before moving forward. I had the luxury 125 00:08:09.600 --> 00:08:11.160 of talking to Scott Kirby the Seal of United during this book, and he 126 00:08:11.240 --> 00:08:13.360 was telling me during COVID he said, well, I'm going to tell the 127 00:08:13.399 --> 00:08:16.800 people that I don't know how long this is going to be broken and how 128 00:08:16.959 --> 00:08:20.319 long it's going to be help and his team. You can't show weakness. 129 00:08:20.360 --> 00:08:24.800 Ye're the CEO and he said he just find ently disagree we don't have the 130 00:08:24.839 --> 00:08:28.079 answer. We go tell him we have the answer. Then six months with 131 00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:31.000 I'll discover we don't. You know, we can show a little a little 132 00:08:31.000 --> 00:08:33.879 bit of humble this yere a little bit honesty. Now. I don't think 133 00:08:33.879 --> 00:08:37.039 as a leader you want to look lost scared, but there's nothing wrong with 134 00:08:37.120 --> 00:08:39.440 displaying, Hey, I'm not sure where we're going. It's where it's going 135 00:08:39.480 --> 00:08:43.080 to all go there together, and you know, think art et cetera. 136 00:08:43.240 --> 00:08:48.559 I have many years in the retail space in leadership, but started out actually 137 00:08:48.559 --> 00:08:54.200 in retail. And the line that is taught now to a lot of you 138 00:08:54.200 --> 00:08:58.080 know, basic retail associates that really wasn't taught for the longest time is this 139 00:08:58.159 --> 00:09:01.639 concept of you know, I don't know, but let's figure it out together, 140 00:09:01.039 --> 00:09:07.679 right, And so people see through an attempt to both to imply that 141 00:09:07.720 --> 00:09:11.440 you know something when you don't, because even if even if they don't see 142 00:09:11.480 --> 00:09:13.879 it the very first time, they'll see it eventually and once you've lost the 143 00:09:13.960 --> 00:09:18.080 credibility. And this is whether you're talking about a sales interaction between an associate 144 00:09:18.080 --> 00:09:24.120 and a customer or a communication interaction between a CEO and a team of people. 145 00:09:24.080 --> 00:09:28.720 Once they see through that and you've lost the credibility, it's really difficult. 146 00:09:28.759 --> 00:09:31.879 It's not impossible to get that back. And so you know, just 147 00:09:31.879 --> 00:09:35.200 just saying, you know, I don't have all the answers, but we're 148 00:09:35.240 --> 00:09:37.279 trying to find them. We're trying to find the answers, and we'll be 149 00:09:37.360 --> 00:09:41.039 transparent, you know, because the people that you're talking to they don't have 150 00:09:41.080 --> 00:09:43.639 the answers either. So it's not like it's not like a thinking, well, 151 00:09:43.679 --> 00:09:45.799 duh, I know the answer? How come they do not? Just 152 00:09:46.279 --> 00:09:48.720 you know, just testing they don't. They don't know either. And so 153 00:09:48.320 --> 00:09:54.360 if you if you don't know, the weak weakness doesn't doesn't come from not 154 00:09:54.559 --> 00:09:58.159 knowing. Weakness comes from not even having a plan to try to figure out, 155 00:09:58.600 --> 00:10:01.519 right, you have to at least have something in place to say, 156 00:10:01.799 --> 00:10:05.840 these are the next steps, and we're moving forward with this thing based on 157 00:10:05.879 --> 00:10:09.759 the information we do have. But it may change, but you'll be the 158 00:10:09.759 --> 00:10:11.759 first to know if it changes, because we want to make sure that you're 159 00:10:13.679 --> 00:10:18.320 that you're involved in this because it affects you just as it impacts us. 160 00:10:18.399 --> 00:10:22.440 You know, I bet your weakness also comes a bit from pretending you always 161 00:10:22.440 --> 00:10:24.080 know when you don't know, because eventually it's gonna crash. Of course, 162 00:10:26.279 --> 00:10:31.559 it's this goes to the whole concept of vulnerability. In one of my colleagues, 163 00:10:31.600 --> 00:10:35.159 I was asking this person about, you know, authenticity and vulnerability. 164 00:10:35.240 --> 00:10:39.279 He said, I used to be afraid to say I don't know, and 165 00:10:39.320 --> 00:10:41.159 so I'd be in a team room and I could tell where no one knew 166 00:10:41.200 --> 00:10:43.480 what was going We're lost, and they were gonna look to me pretty soon 167 00:10:43.559 --> 00:10:46.720 say what should we do? And I might not know, he said. 168 00:10:46.720 --> 00:10:50.279 I would leave the room before I get the question. He said, well, 169 00:10:50.080 --> 00:10:52.159 that's a really, I mean, I could be productive now, he 170 00:10:52.200 --> 00:10:54.080 said, what Finally, one time I stayed and said, you know, 171 00:10:54.559 --> 00:10:58.080 I don't know either, and he says, like a breath of fresh air, 172 00:10:58.120 --> 00:11:00.120 with oh you don't know either, Oh none of us know, And 173 00:11:00.159 --> 00:11:03.919 then the juice is just started flowing because nobody was afraid of anything. Just 174 00:11:05.519 --> 00:11:09.159 as the biggest eye opener for him, Hey, it was easier to say 175 00:11:09.200 --> 00:11:11.039 I don't know. He's although I still struggle to say I don't know sometimes. 176 00:11:11.159 --> 00:11:13.799 I think a lot of leaders still struggle to say that. But but 177 00:11:13.840 --> 00:11:20.159 there's no question that you know, psychological safety just skyrockets in any room where 178 00:11:20.320 --> 00:11:22.799 once the leader has shown like it has to be role modeled. Like there 179 00:11:22.919 --> 00:11:26.639 there is no psychological safety in a room where it isn't role modeled by whoever 180 00:11:26.639 --> 00:11:31.159 the leader is, you know, the if everybody thinks the leader has the 181 00:11:31.200 --> 00:11:35.679 answer, then no one's trying to solve the problem. They're just trying to 182 00:11:35.720 --> 00:11:37.679 say what they believe the leader already thinks is the answer. They're trying to 183 00:11:37.720 --> 00:11:41.720 figure that out, and that's the wrong problem to solve. And if the 184 00:11:41.759 --> 00:11:43.480 leader doesn't have the answer to begin with, then it's an impossible problem to 185 00:11:43.480 --> 00:11:48.720 solve, And so there are waste time of course, of course. So 186 00:11:48.799 --> 00:11:50.919 yeah, it's typically all you have. It's amazing what you can get done 187 00:11:52.279 --> 00:11:54.720 once everybody can kind of just look at each other and agree and say, 188 00:11:54.759 --> 00:11:56.279 hey, you know what, you know, nobody here knows the answer, 189 00:11:56.960 --> 00:12:01.519 so so let's figure this out together. Uh than uh than people just trying 190 00:12:01.559 --> 00:12:07.639 to you know, put forward this this appearance of of knowing. I think 191 00:12:07.679 --> 00:12:11.399 it's funny when when it comes to to empathy. My uh my wife will 192 00:12:11.440 --> 00:12:16.440 sometimes you know, look at Instagram reels and she'll send me things and with 193 00:12:16.519 --> 00:12:20.679 the caption, she'll she'll type out the caption, I think this person is 194 00:12:20.679 --> 00:12:26.000 spying on me, meaning she'll see something from another young mother who is having 195 00:12:26.039 --> 00:12:31.279 trouble keeping things together, right, whether it's car pools and schedules and and 196 00:12:31.279 --> 00:12:35.320 and illnesses and children and all the things that that happen. And for the 197 00:12:35.440 --> 00:12:41.240 for the longest time, no one saw that, and and and social media 198 00:12:41.519 --> 00:12:46.440 was was looked at as a negative influence because all you saw was the rose 199 00:12:46.480 --> 00:12:50.240 colored lens stuff. You know, when you start to look at the the 200 00:12:50.240 --> 00:12:52.480 the aggregate of all the stuff you're seeing, and all you're seeing is, 201 00:12:52.519 --> 00:12:54.879 Wow, this person got a new car, and this person went on a 202 00:12:54.960 --> 00:12:58.399 vacation, and this person is doing all these things. My life is terrible, 203 00:12:58.440 --> 00:13:01.799 and that that brings you down. And there's this there's this kind of 204 00:13:01.960 --> 00:13:07.559 new wave of social media influencers that are that are gaining a following by the 205 00:13:07.639 --> 00:13:13.480 vulnerability by saying I don't have my stuff together and these are these are the 206 00:13:13.480 --> 00:13:16.039 struggles that I have. And then you get people watching this going, oh 207 00:13:16.080 --> 00:13:18.720 my gosh, I'm not the only one. I'm not the only one who 208 00:13:18.759 --> 00:13:22.559 doesn't have my stuff together. All these other people do too. I feel 209 00:13:22.600 --> 00:13:24.440 seen, you know, maybe for the first time, and I'm able to 210 00:13:24.480 --> 00:13:31.159 put down this bag of bricks that is self judgment and believing that I don't 211 00:13:31.159 --> 00:13:33.480 deserve to be here, and believing that I'm in the wrong role, and 212 00:13:33.480 --> 00:13:35.399 that I've failed as a human being, as a parent and a whatever. 213 00:13:37.799 --> 00:13:41.200 It's just a really incredible how that can be a force for good as opposed 214 00:13:41.240 --> 00:13:45.559 to just a force for bad in the right hands. Yeah, it's so 215 00:13:45.639 --> 00:13:46.960 interesting you said that, because I mean social media. There's a lot of 216 00:13:48.000 --> 00:13:50.200 good things, of course, the access and all kinds of stuff, but 217 00:13:50.240 --> 00:13:52.679 there's a lot of things that you started. But I actually even think to 218 00:13:52.720 --> 00:13:56.600 think about it. I mean, what were the soap operas or the advertisements 219 00:13:56.600 --> 00:14:00.279 that my first job was Procter and Gamble, you know, the housewife look 220 00:14:00.320 --> 00:14:03.720 perfect, the kids look back then were sad, and then of course all 221 00:14:03.759 --> 00:14:05.480 the advertisements that you can buy this car, you should look like this. 222 00:14:07.000 --> 00:14:09.879 It probably was not just social media. Actually, maybe social media is going 223 00:14:09.919 --> 00:14:11.919 to enable us to be more vulnerable to your point, right, as a 224 00:14:11.919 --> 00:14:16.159 regular, regular person can show their regular life. Yeah, in your book, 225 00:14:16.320 --> 00:14:20.399 you use one of the things that you you talk about when it comes 226 00:14:20.480 --> 00:14:24.639 to what it what it means to be a generous leader, and you can 227 00:14:24.679 --> 00:14:28.039 you can trust you know, kind of new styles of leadership versus old styles. 228 00:14:28.519 --> 00:14:33.200 And I think part of the reason that this is this was difficult for 229 00:14:33.240 --> 00:14:35.240 a lot of people, a lot more people, and still is difficult for 230 00:14:35.279 --> 00:14:41.200 some people today, is that it's hard to quantify success on an Excel spreadsheet 231 00:14:41.240 --> 00:14:48.679 or a scorecard somewhere. It's hard for a person to say that the leading 232 00:14:48.720 --> 00:14:52.519 in this way, that this is the right way to lead because it does 233 00:14:52.559 --> 00:14:54.120 this and this and this, this, look at the impact of the scorecard. 234 00:14:54.120 --> 00:14:56.600 You can only do that in hindsight. You can only connect the dots 235 00:14:56.720 --> 00:15:01.480 looking backwards and saying I did this for this amount of time and look what 236 00:15:01.559 --> 00:15:05.159 it did. In order to do that, you have to have the buy 237 00:15:05.240 --> 00:15:11.559 in or at least the leeway or the freedom from your own leaders to have 238 00:15:11.600 --> 00:15:13.120 that time to do that, to say this is uh, you know, 239 00:15:13.240 --> 00:15:18.120 trust me, you put me this role for a reason, this is the 240 00:15:18.120 --> 00:15:20.279 way that I think it's successful. And then and then you're taking you're asking 241 00:15:20.320 --> 00:15:22.799 them to take a risk on you or a bet on you that the way 242 00:15:22.840 --> 00:15:26.360 you're doing it is correct. A lot of people have our time doing that 243 00:15:26.399 --> 00:15:28.519 because they can't quantify it. They it has to be something that is more 244 00:15:28.519 --> 00:15:31.360 ethereal as opposed to you know, one plus one equals two. Yeah. 245 00:15:31.480 --> 00:15:37.039 No, you probably saw the book the Samir Bodus, who's now CEO. 246 00:15:37.159 --> 00:15:39.039 I said us he he was, He said, I was a wark and 247 00:15:39.120 --> 00:15:43.039 guy numbers numbers. Started at Microsoft. It was all delivered, delivered many 248 00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:46.919 years ago. So this wasn't satcha is delivered to me, but it was 249 00:15:48.159 --> 00:15:50.559 numbers, numbers, numbers. So then I changed jobs, had my first 250 00:15:50.559 --> 00:15:54.480 turnaround I had to do and I realized, Wow, I just can't holler 251 00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:58.000 at people and say that's the number. That's thing is broken. It has 252 00:15:58.039 --> 00:16:00.440 to change. We're not treating our customers, We're not treating each other right, 253 00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:03.799 We're not being honest. He said, we weren't being honest. Were 254 00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:06.399 and so you know, he said, I just tried something different, honesty, 255 00:16:07.039 --> 00:16:08.080 and wow, we turned it around. He said. It was very 256 00:16:08.080 --> 00:16:11.320 eye opening for me. But even then, whatever board that was had to 257 00:16:11.360 --> 00:16:17.039 give him the time, your rights, and well, I guess it worked, 258 00:16:17.720 --> 00:16:19.600 and I'm sure it wasn't just well, actually he would argue, of 259 00:16:19.639 --> 00:16:22.840 course, he still had metrics and all that, but the fact that we 260 00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:26.600 start to be honest with ourselves and our customers changed everything, which you know 261 00:16:26.720 --> 00:16:29.639 is a version of vulnerability. Yeah, no, you're right. Someone wants 262 00:16:29.679 --> 00:16:30.879 asked me, what are metrics you put in place for this? And it's 263 00:16:32.840 --> 00:16:34.600 you know, you struggle like hell to answer that. I mean BCG's look, 264 00:16:34.679 --> 00:16:38.159 we have an upward feedback and it's three sixty two, so it's not 265 00:16:38.279 --> 00:16:41.360 but every young and it's and it's anonymous, so it can be brutal. 266 00:16:41.799 --> 00:16:45.919 But you you get feedback as a very senior guy every year. And if 267 00:16:45.960 --> 00:16:51.080 you get a lot of we call him red triangles, you're in trouble in 268 00:16:51.080 --> 00:16:53.200 our place. But it's not that common to have that kind of feedback. 269 00:16:53.279 --> 00:16:56.080 I mean, that's pretty unusual. Culture. It's cultural for sure. You 270 00:16:56.120 --> 00:17:00.440 can't just start it going. It'll fill miserably. You have the culture will 271 00:17:00.440 --> 00:17:03.359 create the tools. The tools don't create the culture. I agree with you, 272 00:17:03.400 --> 00:17:07.319 and I do think things are shifting, right. I mean, social 273 00:17:07.359 --> 00:17:10.240 media change stuff because now it's all exposed all the time. And you know, 274 00:17:10.279 --> 00:17:12.119 someone asked me their day, Well, isn't it that you know the 275 00:17:12.279 --> 00:17:15.480 tough times? You know, a tough leader. I was thinking about that, 276 00:17:15.559 --> 00:17:18.480 And of course the question is what does the word tough mean. If 277 00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:22.519 it means but if tough means I can make tough decisions, and I can 278 00:17:22.599 --> 00:17:26.119 make them fast, because you have to, right, but if also it 279 00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:30.200 means I can, you know, at least myself a bit to engage with 280 00:17:30.720 --> 00:17:33.680 my people, which you know, I know. It was Kristin Peck that 281 00:17:33.720 --> 00:17:36.720 said over half the employees are millennials. And if you had the gen zers 282 00:17:36.759 --> 00:17:38.039 now, which are what thirteen to twenty six or something, you know, 283 00:17:38.200 --> 00:17:42.119 most of our employees are young people who do, at least now, indicate 284 00:17:42.240 --> 00:17:45.119 quite different demands. You know, they're actually asking for a more but that 285 00:17:45.279 --> 00:17:48.119 now maybe when they're old enough that they have three kids, two cars and 286 00:17:48.160 --> 00:17:51.720 a mortgage things. You know, I always wonder about it, but I 287 00:17:51.720 --> 00:17:53.839 don't think so, because even thirty five year olds are expecting rightly, you're 288 00:17:53.960 --> 00:17:59.680 very good. So you know, you do believe that that is starting to 289 00:17:59.720 --> 00:18:02.519 shift, as you said, And I just I think the more people that 290 00:18:02.599 --> 00:18:03.799 experience, I mean, I just think of the beast of years I talked 291 00:18:03.839 --> 00:18:07.920 to or the first time they were vulnerable, the first time they gave up 292 00:18:07.960 --> 00:18:10.839 the mask of them they said, my gosh, it was so freeing. 293 00:18:10.920 --> 00:18:12.720 I saved so much time. It wasn't being me. It was so hard 294 00:18:14.680 --> 00:18:18.400 now that leader just changed. And that's you know, one wanted person at 295 00:18:18.400 --> 00:18:22.440 a time. Although also you opened with you know, if you're not really 296 00:18:22.480 --> 00:18:26.359 treating the people right, they just leave. And it's pretty easy to leave 297 00:18:26.400 --> 00:18:29.880 nowadays. And the best it's very easy to leave because someone said, well, 298 00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:32.920 Joe, but you know it's always someone else. Yeah, but you 299 00:18:32.920 --> 00:18:34.880 don't you don't want the best to be rotating out of your company. You 300 00:18:34.880 --> 00:18:37.160 don't want anybody. But you don't want the best to be leaving your company 301 00:18:37.160 --> 00:18:41.440 for the next company. Right, That's not that's not the path to success. 302 00:18:41.599 --> 00:18:47.000 Yeah, there there's I think there there are generational differences, but I 303 00:18:47.440 --> 00:18:51.119 think of you know, the one of the one of the one of the 304 00:18:51.200 --> 00:18:56.720 benefits of the younger generation to organizations is that they will leave if there's a 305 00:18:56.759 --> 00:19:03.759 problem. I think when it comes to a lot of Gen xers and baby 306 00:19:03.759 --> 00:19:10.039 boomers, they are more likely than millennials and Gen Zers to stay at a 307 00:19:10.119 --> 00:19:14.519 job they don't like, as opposed to leaving but not do it well, 308 00:19:14.920 --> 00:19:17.839 like just do it enough to just get by and in a lot of in 309 00:19:17.839 --> 00:19:22.759 a lot of circumstances. That's worse for an organization because you're not you're not 310 00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:26.039 getting the canary and the coal mine of an exodus of people who are leaving. 311 00:19:26.079 --> 00:19:27.359 Where you can go, what's going on here? Let's react to this. 312 00:19:27.720 --> 00:19:30.920 You're thinking everybody, nobody's leaving, everybody must be happy. It's like 313 00:19:32.079 --> 00:19:33.559 and when I ask them, they say they're happy, and the engagement survey 314 00:19:33.599 --> 00:19:37.680 people say yeah, everything's good. They're not being honest, they're not working 315 00:19:37.759 --> 00:19:41.839 hard anymore. They've checked out. And now you have an even larger problem 316 00:19:41.880 --> 00:19:45.119 to solve because you have people who who you you have to convince them to 317 00:19:45.279 --> 00:19:47.759 now, you know, give their all. At least if the culture is 318 00:19:47.799 --> 00:19:51.799 bad and people are leaving, you have the ability to do a reset almost 319 00:19:51.799 --> 00:19:55.240 you can figure this out and try to move through it. And so yeah, 320 00:19:55.480 --> 00:19:59.799 this this this idea of not sticking around if you're having a problem. 321 00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:03.480 It's not good for companies, but it could be worse. And that is 322 00:20:03.680 --> 00:20:06.400 a team of people who are sticking around and just not doing well anymore. 323 00:20:06.440 --> 00:20:07.200 Yeah, well, no, you're right, it's not good for companies. 324 00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:10.599 But maybe I think your other point there is it is actually good because now 325 00:20:10.680 --> 00:20:12.279 you say, oh gosh, what's going on here and what are we going 326 00:20:12.319 --> 00:20:15.720 to do and what are we going to change? I was I was taken 327 00:20:15.799 --> 00:20:18.720 back by one of the things you said in the book. You use the 328 00:20:18.759 --> 00:20:22.000 term see the person, not the role when it comes to, you know, 329 00:20:22.039 --> 00:20:27.559 speaking to somebody. And there's been a lot of work and discussion and 330 00:20:27.759 --> 00:20:33.240 movement over the last three or four years in the d n I space in 331 00:20:33.359 --> 00:20:37.559 organizations, and a lot of it has been reactive. A lot of it 332 00:20:37.559 --> 00:20:40.119 has been, you know, this idea that oh my gosh, we're gonna 333 00:20:40.119 --> 00:20:44.279 be held accountable if we don't. And sometimes the right thing for the wrong 334 00:20:44.400 --> 00:20:47.880 reason is still the right thing. You know, you hope it's the right 335 00:20:47.880 --> 00:20:52.480 thing for the right reason. But movement is movement. But this idea of 336 00:20:52.519 --> 00:20:59.119 seeing a person and not a role, it takes effort to do that. 337 00:20:59.680 --> 00:21:03.680 If the person that you're seeing is not someone you can relate to, either 338 00:21:03.759 --> 00:21:08.240 they are in a different point of their career as you, or they are 339 00:21:08.319 --> 00:21:11.480 you know, you're you're in the house and they're on the bed. You 340 00:21:11.519 --> 00:21:15.400 know, when it comes to you know, the zoom, the company conference 341 00:21:15.440 --> 00:21:18.359 call. If they are a different skin color than you, Uh if they 342 00:21:18.720 --> 00:21:22.599 have kids and you don't, or you don't and you do and they don't. 343 00:21:22.920 --> 00:21:23.880 Uh, if you don't listen to the same music, if you grew 344 00:21:23.960 --> 00:21:30.839 up in a completely different location or country. All these things can make the 345 00:21:30.920 --> 00:21:36.119 jumping off point of forming a relationship with somebody much more difficult. And human 346 00:21:36.160 --> 00:21:41.440 beings as as as as animals, you know, we want to uh we 347 00:21:41.759 --> 00:21:44.720 look for real easy things. It's like it's this like kind of quick I 348 00:21:44.759 --> 00:21:47.839 want to strengthen numbers. I need to look around and find people who are 349 00:21:48.279 --> 00:21:52.519 like me, because that's where the strength lies. And there's so much that 350 00:21:52.680 --> 00:21:57.799 connects us in terms of our humanity that you can't see and and you just 351 00:21:57.839 --> 00:22:00.240 have to like kind of dig blow the surface. And I think the people 352 00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:04.240 who who do that well are the ones that have the ability to see the 353 00:22:04.240 --> 00:22:07.799 person and not the role. And there are so many people out there who 354 00:22:07.960 --> 00:22:11.319 just don't. They don't make the effort, and they surround themselves with people 355 00:22:11.319 --> 00:22:15.880 who are like them, and they they just don't. They just take the 356 00:22:15.160 --> 00:22:18.359 kind of the easy way out. Much more difficult for leaders that I've seen, 357 00:22:18.519 --> 00:22:22.240 they really struggle with seeing the person and not the role. They see 358 00:22:22.240 --> 00:22:23.119 the role. You know, the thing I was just thinking about it is 359 00:22:23.160 --> 00:22:26.240 you were talking because it's a very tricky thing. I mean, I like 360 00:22:26.319 --> 00:22:30.480 people, I see people, but a twenty seven year old isn't going to 361 00:22:30.519 --> 00:22:33.160 say what's the sixty six year old? I just not go. But you 362 00:22:33.200 --> 00:22:34.960 know, then you have to move past Okay, I'm not going to be 363 00:22:36.039 --> 00:22:38.519 that kid's friend. I mean maybe we'll have a relationship, but I'll conn 364 00:22:38.519 --> 00:22:41.839 be their friend. But if I see them in the work environment as the 365 00:22:41.880 --> 00:22:45.359 person, not the role. So what can this person bring? What are 366 00:22:45.359 --> 00:22:48.240 their experience that are valuable? What do they know? I don't know. 367 00:22:48.279 --> 00:22:49.559 Oh they know twenty seven year old? What does that tell me about that 368 00:22:49.680 --> 00:22:55.359 set of you know, customers of your business? And not to make yourself 369 00:22:55.359 --> 00:22:59.680 think you have to know the twenty seven year old in their world or their 370 00:23:00.359 --> 00:23:03.640 them as your friend. At least it gives you an a way to get 371 00:23:03.640 --> 00:23:06.799 there because ye as I listened, I thought, wow, that's well put 372 00:23:06.920 --> 00:23:10.359 Now what do you do? But you just look at them as as if 373 00:23:10.400 --> 00:23:15.559 someone can contribute to your company. You've probably read in the story that was 374 00:23:15.559 --> 00:23:18.599 so stark for me. I used to do these deliberate discourse tenders they were 375 00:23:18.640 --> 00:23:23.039 called, which was tables of eight to ten. It was a facility of 376 00:23:23.079 --> 00:23:26.599 conversation about when did you discover race? It's about race, and we have 377 00:23:26.839 --> 00:23:30.039 and it was hopefully a colection. You know, there might have been an 378 00:23:30.200 --> 00:23:34.839 LGBTQ woman, a regular old white, thirty year old male black guy. 379 00:23:34.839 --> 00:23:37.400 It was just a variety of people. We tried to get their variety of 380 00:23:37.440 --> 00:23:41.839 backgrounds. And one person looked up and he said, the black guy printed 381 00:23:41.559 --> 00:23:44.920 maybe five years into bc She said, Joe, you don't get it. 382 00:23:45.559 --> 00:23:48.359 I wake up every day and I walk out the door and I'm worried I'm 383 00:23:48.359 --> 00:23:51.960 gonna get shot. And I thought, shit, but this is what you 384 00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:55.319 know, and the thing in most of business you need to be on most 385 00:23:55.359 --> 00:23:57.279 of the time, and a portion of this guy's person's brain is on how 386 00:23:57.279 --> 00:24:00.440 am I live today? But it was really said to me, Wow, 387 00:24:00.839 --> 00:24:06.279 you know, I have to really spend more time seeing this person, not 388 00:24:06.279 --> 00:24:08.480 not just the role. I mean, he was a very talented principle at 389 00:24:08.519 --> 00:24:12.599 BCG that's okay, but look what he's fighting through to make it work. 390 00:24:14.079 --> 00:24:18.039 Quite powerful, but ultimately, at least see what they can contribute in your 391 00:24:18.160 --> 00:24:22.880 organization, like they just have different experiences, different thinking, different back you 392 00:24:22.920 --> 00:24:26.160 know, different well, just different thinking, the different ways of seeing problems 393 00:24:26.160 --> 00:24:30.079 and if you can understand, okay, that will actually contribute sure well in 394 00:24:30.119 --> 00:24:36.079 an organization like like Boston Consulting Group or or any of the the organizations that 395 00:24:36.200 --> 00:24:40.039 do what what BCG does? You know, the nature of that is that 396 00:24:40.079 --> 00:24:47.319 you you have to be able to be an effective consultant team for organizations no 397 00:24:47.400 --> 00:24:49.119 matter where they are, and no matter what type of clientele they have, 398 00:24:49.160 --> 00:24:52.599 no matter what type of employees they have. You know, you have people 399 00:24:52.599 --> 00:24:56.640 to do that if you if you if all you have working on your teams 400 00:24:56.680 --> 00:25:00.359 are people who are just like you, then then I'm sure you'll a core 401 00:25:00.400 --> 00:25:03.880 customer, right But but you're there's there's definitely gonna be a ceiling that you 402 00:25:03.960 --> 00:25:07.400 can't go past or where you're not going to be able to be appealing to 403 00:25:07.480 --> 00:25:11.000 other businesses because you just don't have the ability to walk in their shoes. 404 00:25:11.119 --> 00:25:14.279 You don't have the you don't have the right people in place to do it, 405 00:25:14.680 --> 00:25:17.000 you know. And so it's like I think I think the uh, 406 00:25:17.480 --> 00:25:21.119 one of the one of the things that we've learned over probably the last thirty 407 00:25:21.200 --> 00:25:25.519 years, but but more so in the last you know, ten or fifteen, 408 00:25:26.079 --> 00:25:30.680 is that you don't do diversity, equity and inclusion simply because it's the 409 00:25:30.759 --> 00:25:34.480 right thing to do. It's actually the smart business thing to do also, 410 00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:38.799 and and it's not often that you don't have to choose between the two. 411 00:25:38.920 --> 00:25:41.880 Like a lot of a lot of companies, you're having to choose between what 412 00:25:41.920 --> 00:25:45.440 you think is the right thing to do right and the correct thing to do 413 00:25:45.559 --> 00:25:48.400 right. And sometimes they don't always line up or or at least they don't 414 00:25:48.440 --> 00:25:51.920 fit right on top of each other. This one, it really does, 415 00:25:52.079 --> 00:25:57.359 and and it's a you know, the the organizations that index really well on 416 00:25:57.599 --> 00:26:03.240 these metrics are the ones where it's just clear they understand that they believe that 417 00:26:03.359 --> 00:26:07.599 it's they're not doing this in order to get points on their you know, 418 00:26:07.880 --> 00:26:11.200 the ESG score. You know, they're they're not doing it to to not 419 00:26:11.279 --> 00:26:17.039 be you know, chastised on social media by by activist groups. They're doing 420 00:26:17.039 --> 00:26:19.720 it because they want to grow their business and they want to make more money, 421 00:26:19.960 --> 00:26:22.720 and this is the way they're doing it. You're just you know, 422 00:26:22.759 --> 00:26:26.400 there's study after study by the consulting firms, actually by the banks, by 423 00:26:26.400 --> 00:26:29.720 the hedge funds, even about the you know, oh look when half the 424 00:26:29.720 --> 00:26:32.480 C suite as women, the numbers are better. Right, It's just so 425 00:26:32.680 --> 00:26:37.160 much data that proves this. People call out a performative ally, someone who 426 00:26:37.160 --> 00:26:40.720 does it because oh the metrics tell me to or oh my boss is going 427 00:26:40.799 --> 00:26:44.359 to look at the numbers versus and that's you can be an ally as a 428 00:26:44.400 --> 00:26:47.839 company too, versus you know what, I I guess it's a word company. 429 00:26:47.839 --> 00:26:49.640 He's an action ally who someone actually goes out of the way to help 430 00:26:51.079 --> 00:26:55.480 pay the opportunity for someone. So why why they were generous as opposed to 431 00:26:55.680 --> 00:26:57.680 something else? What was it about that work? Because because I'll be honest, 432 00:26:57.680 --> 00:27:00.319 it seems it seems basic, Like it seems like a pretty basic thing. 433 00:27:00.359 --> 00:27:06.039 It's not a it's not a profound word, but but there's some power 434 00:27:06.079 --> 00:27:07.640 in that. There's some power in that. It's like it's almost like, 435 00:27:08.039 --> 00:27:12.480 don't don't overthink this. This is pretty this is pretty basic. These things 436 00:27:12.519 --> 00:27:18.240 are not they're not necessarily easy to do. But uh, but you're not 437 00:27:18.279 --> 00:27:22.240 inventing fire here. You're you're you're telling somebody something that they probably should already 438 00:27:22.319 --> 00:27:25.480 know. So can I give you a really honest answer. Of course you're 439 00:27:25.480 --> 00:27:30.400 gonna say. Yes. It's very funny because Ridgely, I was working on 440 00:27:30.400 --> 00:27:32.480 this book with a hybrid publisher, and I had to come up with my 441 00:27:32.559 --> 00:27:33.920 own title, and it was different driven. It was it sound like, 442 00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:37.200 it's kind of like Briven Brannie Brown's title, but I had something different, 443 00:27:37.240 --> 00:27:41.160 driven to care or something, so I thought. Then I switched to BK 444 00:27:41.440 --> 00:27:44.440 this the affiliate of Benglin Random House, and that he is on the phone 445 00:27:44.480 --> 00:27:47.440 with the or the video you know, zoom all time with two editors, 446 00:27:47.480 --> 00:27:49.440 and one guy goes, Joe, your title is terrible. It's okay. 447 00:27:49.559 --> 00:27:52.880 And I had been warned that editors know what they're doing, so basically take 448 00:27:52.920 --> 00:27:56.240 it. And he said, you got to call it the generous Leader. 449 00:27:56.839 --> 00:27:59.079 He just got really excited. And then the other guy starts pounding on the 450 00:27:59.119 --> 00:28:00.920 computer. Oh it's not taking, it's not taken. Say yes, right 451 00:28:00.960 --> 00:28:04.279 now, I just met these guys. I said, well, okay, 452 00:28:04.279 --> 00:28:07.000 I'm there screaming out, not screaming, but come on, it's the greatest 453 00:28:07.039 --> 00:28:10.920 word. It's so great. And then I said, all right, then 454 00:28:10.960 --> 00:28:11.519 I call them the next day. I said, but wait a minute, 455 00:28:11.519 --> 00:28:15.519 what do people think I say, I'm the generous leader. He said, 456 00:28:15.519 --> 00:28:18.480 hey, you've been successful in business forty years. Get used to it. 457 00:28:18.759 --> 00:28:22.119 Okay, But then to your point, it's just a much more encompassing word. 458 00:28:22.240 --> 00:28:25.240 And now guy, I also got shot, Oh you mean pay more 459 00:28:25.279 --> 00:28:27.079 money? No I didn't. You know, you have to make sure that's 460 00:28:27.079 --> 00:28:30.359 not what I meant. But once you get that, I actually mean all 461 00:28:30.359 --> 00:28:33.960 the words you and I've talked about seeing the person empathy, showing some vulnerability. 462 00:28:33.960 --> 00:28:37.759 I mean, really, what it is is giving of yourself without plan 463 00:28:37.880 --> 00:28:41.880 for gain, so that others can grow and develop and thrive. And of 464 00:28:41.920 --> 00:28:45.400 course when you do that, you benefit. If everybody's thriving, you're going 465 00:28:45.480 --> 00:28:48.519 to win two. You know, it actually might even be easier because everybody 466 00:28:48.519 --> 00:28:52.839 else is doing so well around you. So I actually the honest truth is 467 00:28:53.079 --> 00:28:56.319 they came up with it, but it's very powerful word. And that's actually 468 00:28:56.440 --> 00:28:59.960 part of the goal is to get people to stop. And that's the who 469 00:29:00.200 --> 00:29:03.960 goal. Maybe change your leadership a little bit. You see something like that, 470 00:29:03.039 --> 00:29:06.160 you say, what's that all you just your pause for a second, 471 00:29:06.200 --> 00:29:08.079 what's that all about? I think the thing that that I would like to 472 00:29:08.119 --> 00:29:14.039 know about it is what's the difference between so that you know, you in 473 00:29:14.119 --> 00:29:17.200 the there you know seven seven kind of bullet points here, you know, 474 00:29:17.240 --> 00:29:21.359 you have generous communication, generous listening, you know, generous inclusion. What's 475 00:29:21.759 --> 00:29:26.200 what's the difference between good, effective communication and generous communication? Right? Like 476 00:29:26.240 --> 00:29:33.119 there's it implies that there's a that the communication can be good and effective, 477 00:29:33.480 --> 00:29:37.920 but not rise to the level of of generous. Right it implies that that 478 00:29:37.160 --> 00:29:41.920 generous listening, that that listening can be good and it can be effective, 479 00:29:41.960 --> 00:29:45.240 but not rise to the level of generous. What what is that extra you 480 00:29:45.279 --> 00:29:48.880 know, sprinkling of in you know, the meme of the guy with the 481 00:29:48.920 --> 00:29:52.000 sprinkling of salt on the meat. What what is that that brings it to 482 00:29:52.039 --> 00:29:56.160 that level? It's really that it's about them, not you, and about 483 00:29:56.240 --> 00:30:00.000 them first. So a generous listener, what do you know that I don't 484 00:30:00.119 --> 00:30:03.000 know that might help me out? What is your experience that you've had? 485 00:30:03.359 --> 00:30:06.960 You know, why are you saying what you're saying as opposed to let me 486 00:30:07.000 --> 00:30:08.759 tell you what you need to know to go do your job? You know? 487 00:30:08.920 --> 00:30:15.000 Or you know the communicator Joaquin Duato change J told a great story where 488 00:30:15.039 --> 00:30:17.319 he said, you know, when I give a speech, I wanted to 489 00:30:17.359 --> 00:30:21.799 connect with people. And what I do is I'll practice with I'll get a 490 00:30:21.799 --> 00:30:26.000 group of less tenured employees, which is everybody you know but for him, 491 00:30:26.039 --> 00:30:30.759 and I'll practice my talk and then I'll ask them, what did they hear? 492 00:30:30.359 --> 00:30:33.920 And then I'll change, you know, and they heard I said they 493 00:30:33.160 --> 00:30:37.759 or I said water and they heard waterfall, And I'll use their words because 494 00:30:37.759 --> 00:30:41.279 that's actually going to resonate with them. I'm connecting with them, not connecting 495 00:30:41.279 --> 00:30:45.119 with what and it allows them then to you know, hear the message and 496 00:30:45.720 --> 00:30:51.000 grow and thrive, et cetera. But I think the big difference between when 497 00:30:51.039 --> 00:30:56.440 you say you jump to the generous it's that your motivation is to inspire and 498 00:30:56.480 --> 00:30:59.720 motivate others to be as good as they can be, and you're not for 499 00:30:59.759 --> 00:31:03.920 your direct gain and or you know you're really you're you're trying to learn from 500 00:31:03.960 --> 00:31:08.519 them more than tell them. I think about in places where where feedback is 501 00:31:08.559 --> 00:31:14.799 effective as part of the culture of an organization. You know, I've always 502 00:31:15.200 --> 00:31:18.319 believed you have to you have to earn the right to give somebody feedback. 503 00:31:19.079 --> 00:31:22.240 And it has nothing to do with your title. It has to do with 504 00:31:22.279 --> 00:31:26.720 your relationship with them, and there there are two There are two types of 505 00:31:26.720 --> 00:31:29.880 people in my life. There are people who I've earned the right to get 506 00:31:29.880 --> 00:31:30.920 feedback to and people who have not earned the right to get feedback to. 507 00:31:32.240 --> 00:31:34.440 There are people in my life that, like my my brother is one of 508 00:31:34.480 --> 00:31:41.440 my closest friends, and if I did something that required feedback, the first 509 00:31:41.440 --> 00:31:44.799 words out of his mouth would have been something lines of what the hell are 510 00:31:44.799 --> 00:31:48.039 you thinking? Right, like things you wouldn't say to somebody you worked with, 511 00:31:48.079 --> 00:31:52.559 of course, But but it's because of the relationship and the history. 512 00:31:52.640 --> 00:31:59.160 It means that I don't interpret him saying that to me as that he is 513 00:32:00.079 --> 00:32:05.400 believes he's above me, or that he's trying to chastise me. It comes 514 00:32:05.440 --> 00:32:08.480 from a place of wanting me to get better or be a better person, 515 00:32:08.960 --> 00:32:14.079 and it's he has earned the right to say, what the hell are you 516 00:32:14.079 --> 00:32:17.119 doing. It's very rare that you could get to that level with a coworker 517 00:32:17.200 --> 00:32:22.119 unless you've worked with them for many, many, many many years. But 518 00:32:22.319 --> 00:32:27.319 you still have to earn the right to give that feedback. And the places 519 00:32:27.319 --> 00:32:31.559 where I see feedback fail just fall on its face are when people are giving 520 00:32:31.640 --> 00:32:36.720 feedback because what they're trying to solve is their own problem, right, So 521 00:32:36.799 --> 00:32:38.480 it's like, you know, I want to give you this feedback because what 522 00:32:38.519 --> 00:32:42.119 you're doing is making my life more difficult, you know. And they don't 523 00:32:42.119 --> 00:32:45.039 say it that way. They don't say it that way. They try to 524 00:32:45.240 --> 00:32:46.640 put it in the words that make it seem like it would be better for 525 00:32:46.680 --> 00:32:50.359 their career and their job if they did it this way instead. But what 526 00:32:50.400 --> 00:32:52.960 they're really saying, and the person can read between the lines very easily, 527 00:32:52.079 --> 00:32:54.440 is you're making my life more difficult, and I'm trying to make that not 528 00:32:54.519 --> 00:33:00.200 happen. And feedback delivered from that place has already failed before you finish the 529 00:33:00.240 --> 00:33:04.440 sentence. And feedback delivered from a place where it says where it's clear that 530 00:33:04.839 --> 00:33:07.319 whether or not this person does or does not change has no impact on me 531 00:33:07.440 --> 00:33:14.480 whatsoever. But I can tell that it will serve them well in their own 532 00:33:14.519 --> 00:33:17.920 career if they do things in a different way. If a person understands that, 533 00:33:17.920 --> 00:33:22.519 that's really powerful feedback, and all that takes then is for the person 534 00:33:22.559 --> 00:33:23.759 to get out of their own out of their own way and not have the 535 00:33:23.799 --> 00:33:29.599 ego to to dismiss it. But It starts with that are you are you? 536 00:33:29.839 --> 00:33:31.720 Are you thinking about the other person in what it is you're doing, 537 00:33:31.799 --> 00:33:35.160 or are you thinking about yourself? You know. The other word I use, 538 00:33:35.200 --> 00:33:37.480 but it's a tricky word, is you know you and you're just what 539 00:33:37.519 --> 00:33:39.599 you just said, you have to care. I mean, your brother cares 540 00:33:39.640 --> 00:33:43.200 about you, and you know now you got to earn the right to you 541 00:33:43.240 --> 00:33:45.000 get. But if you don't care, it's a little hard to do a 542 00:33:45.039 --> 00:33:49.359 lot of these things. You know, I don't quite not now, but 543 00:33:49.440 --> 00:33:51.480 you can get to different ways of carrying. I mean, you made a 544 00:33:51.480 --> 00:33:54.200 point about they thrive, but I actually believe when they thrive, you as 545 00:33:54.200 --> 00:33:58.519 a leader thrive. That just is a fact. You know you're going to 546 00:33:58.599 --> 00:34:00.759 do better, and if you take no credit for it, oh guess what, 547 00:34:00.759 --> 00:34:02.960 you're even going to do better. I believe that. So if there 548 00:34:04.039 --> 00:34:06.480 is a little bit of a self serve, if you need the self serving 549 00:34:06.559 --> 00:34:08.599 nature to get yourself to move, oh well, if everyone around me is 550 00:34:08.880 --> 00:34:12.840 knocking out of the park, I'll get some credit for it. You know. 551 00:34:13.000 --> 00:34:15.280 I had an interesting lesson. I went to the West Coast at BCG 552 00:34:15.440 --> 00:34:20.079 and had nice success, Leftscoes kind of stuck at one hundred million for I 553 00:34:20.079 --> 00:34:21.840 don't know, like three or four years before, but I got there. 554 00:34:22.079 --> 00:34:25.679 We were two fifty when I left, and and it kept going year after 555 00:34:25.679 --> 00:34:30.039 and after year. And I remember the executive, the team that reviews your 556 00:34:30.119 --> 00:34:32.320 person next each year, they looked and they said, oh, actually, 557 00:34:32.320 --> 00:34:36.639 all the people on the West Coast are performing better. It's not just like 558 00:34:36.719 --> 00:34:38.519 Joe's yelling at them to be better. They're actually performing. And they said, 559 00:34:38.519 --> 00:34:42.480 oh, so there's something going on here that's real, as opposed to 560 00:34:43.039 --> 00:34:47.639 somehow he's just selling everything himself or you know, kicking people hard. It 561 00:34:47.679 --> 00:34:52.079 was it, you know, And now BCG's pretty good place. But you 562 00:34:52.119 --> 00:34:53.800 know, we recognize immediately, Oh, if you make everyone else around you 563 00:34:53.840 --> 00:34:58.360 better, the whole thing rises. Well, it goes. It goes back 564 00:34:58.360 --> 00:35:00.719 to this, this this idea of you know, working on behalf of others 565 00:35:00.760 --> 00:35:06.000 without without expectation of something in return. And you know, it's the it's 566 00:35:06.039 --> 00:35:08.920 it works when it comes to effort and work and feedback and power. That 567 00:35:09.039 --> 00:35:15.360 the most powerful people I know, in terms of the actual influence they wield, 568 00:35:15.800 --> 00:35:21.400 are the ones who not just don't ever care about gaining power, but 569 00:35:21.519 --> 00:35:28.239 at every turn they actively try to push away the power. It's incredible how 570 00:35:28.320 --> 00:35:32.679 much power people will give you once they realize you don't want it, and 571 00:35:32.679 --> 00:35:37.639 and and how much power people want to take away from you the moment they 572 00:35:37.679 --> 00:35:39.599 get the realization that that's what you wanted to begin with, was the power, 573 00:35:40.119 --> 00:35:46.159 and and it's it's this this kind of disarming of the relationship. People 574 00:35:46.199 --> 00:35:52.960 start to trust you with having the influence or the power over something some aspect 575 00:35:52.960 --> 00:35:54.960 of their life if they know that you're not going to do wrong with it. 576 00:35:55.000 --> 00:35:57.880 And and the best way to know you're not gonna do wrong with it 577 00:35:57.920 --> 00:36:00.400 is if you if you are reluctantly taking it to begin with, right, 578 00:36:00.440 --> 00:36:05.320 if you're doing it not because you want it, but because you want to 579 00:36:05.360 --> 00:36:07.320 see them succeed well. Put well, but I don't have anything down in 580 00:36:07.320 --> 00:36:12.320 that sense. So if a person is reading your book right now, what 581 00:36:12.360 --> 00:36:14.960 are you hoping that they get out of it? What are you hoping their 582 00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:19.840 takeaway is they put the book down and they want to do different in their 583 00:36:19.880 --> 00:36:22.960 own organization as leaders? What do you hope they take away from it to 584 00:36:23.000 --> 00:36:27.559 be able to put into practice on their own teams? Yeah, So I 585 00:36:27.599 --> 00:36:36.199 hope that someone recognizes when you help others thrive and grow and develop. Actually 586 00:36:36.760 --> 00:36:38.559 everybody wins, for sure, they win, and that feels very good. 587 00:36:38.920 --> 00:36:42.960 You win because you're actually helping somebody grow. That's personally very good, and 588 00:36:43.000 --> 00:36:45.239 the organization gets to a different place. So actually that's the first because I 589 00:36:45.320 --> 00:36:49.280 just you know, it's not about you, it's about everybody. It's about 590 00:36:49.320 --> 00:36:52.360 them. And then I do I think the next like the most someone asked 591 00:36:52.400 --> 00:36:55.440 me one of the most important things I do think there's kind of two, 592 00:36:55.599 --> 00:36:59.360 you know. One is this whole idea of listen to learn and what do 593 00:36:59.400 --> 00:37:01.880 they know that I don't? And really because that's when you get huge unlocks. 594 00:37:01.920 --> 00:37:06.039 If you think you know it all, you're stuck. And that then 595 00:37:06.159 --> 00:37:10.760 means figure out your ways to be you know, authentic and vulnerable. That's 596 00:37:10.800 --> 00:37:15.639 a different line for everybody because the minute you're a little vulnerable that even myths, 597 00:37:15.639 --> 00:37:16.559 Oh I don't know what I don't know? What do you know, 598 00:37:16.639 --> 00:37:20.360 Chris that I can learn from. That's a vulnerability too, which a lot 599 00:37:20.360 --> 00:37:23.199 of people don't have. So that's that's what I hope is they understand if 600 00:37:23.239 --> 00:37:27.639 you actually your spending just like you said, the leaders that are giving the 601 00:37:27.679 --> 00:37:34.079 free intern development opportunities, training trainings, that person's growing that later will benefit 602 00:37:34.199 --> 00:37:37.039 somewhere. That's what I hope people take away. I hope so too. 603 00:37:37.119 --> 00:37:40.480 It almost rises to the level of everything I need to know I learned in 604 00:37:40.519 --> 00:37:45.400 kindergarten. You know, we complicate things as adults, and we sometimes lose 605 00:37:45.440 --> 00:37:49.000 some of these things. I think we all start out having them, and 606 00:37:50.000 --> 00:37:53.519 they get they get unfortunately coached out of us along the way. But if 607 00:37:53.559 --> 00:37:57.760 we can kind of tap into them again, I think it can make for 608 00:37:57.880 --> 00:38:00.039 a real difference. And and and as more more people do it, you 609 00:38:00.039 --> 00:38:02.880 get a cultural shift, not just in an organization, but in a workforce. 610 00:38:04.199 --> 00:38:07.920 Right you in a workforce where people start to realize what's possible. Once 611 00:38:07.960 --> 00:38:10.440 you realize what's possible, you're more likely to hold your own leadership accountable to 612 00:38:10.480 --> 00:38:14.760 delivering that because you understand that. You know, how how come these people 613 00:38:14.760 --> 00:38:16.559 over here at this organization have they they have the right to this type of 614 00:38:16.639 --> 00:38:21.440 leadership. And I don't know, you're you're gonna you're gonna change or I'm 615 00:38:21.440 --> 00:38:23.599 gonna go uh and and I think that's where you that's say you get cultural 616 00:38:23.599 --> 00:38:27.159 shifts. It's fantastic well, yeah, if we really just think about our 617 00:38:27.159 --> 00:38:29.960 country today, if everyone stopped for a little bit and said, why do 618 00:38:30.079 --> 00:38:32.480 they think that way versus I think this way? You don't have to agree, 619 00:38:32.800 --> 00:38:36.599 but at least understand why they think it. It's easier to not it's 620 00:38:36.599 --> 00:38:42.639 easier to to to think that they're that right. They are the opponent as 621 00:38:42.639 --> 00:38:45.840 opposed to thinking, hey, we're on the same team. The opponent is 622 00:38:45.880 --> 00:38:47.880 this problem that we're trying to solve. And you and I have different ways 623 00:38:49.519 --> 00:38:52.440 of naturally our natural ways or inclinations of how to solve this problem are different, 624 00:38:52.840 --> 00:38:58.039 vastly different. But the opponent is the problem. The opponent is not 625 00:38:58.199 --> 00:39:00.880 you, and it's not me. You know, we're we're in this together 626 00:39:00.920 --> 00:39:05.320 and we have we you know, it's uh that has taken a back seat 627 00:39:05.400 --> 00:39:07.639 over the last you know, maybe decade, and we we I really hope 628 00:39:07.679 --> 00:39:13.119 it comes back, because we can solve incredible problems if we start looking at 629 00:39:13.159 --> 00:39:16.559 our at each other as as teammates as opposed to opponents. Joe, I 630 00:39:16.639 --> 00:39:19.599 want to thank you for your time today. I really appreciate it. I 631 00:39:19.599 --> 00:39:22.599 think our listeners will get a lot out of this. We'll put a link 632 00:39:22.679 --> 00:39:25.760 to the book in the podcast description, I hope it continues to be successful 633 00:39:25.800 --> 00:39:30.559 and that and that people learn some of the things that I've learned from It's 634 00:39:30.559 --> 00:39:31.400 a great book. All right, thank you very much. You have a 635 00:39:31.400 --> 00:39:34.199 wonderful day today, Joe, you too. Take care.