Welcome to Popcorn Psychology, the podcast where we watch blockbuster movies and psychoanalyze them.
My name is Brittany Brownfield and I'm a child therapist and I'm joined by
Ben Stover, individual therapist, Hannah Espinoza, marriage and family therapists. We're
all licensed clinical professional counselors also known as therapists, who practice out of Chicago.
Even though we are licensed mental health professionals, this podcast is purely for
entertainment purposes and to fulfill our love of dissecting pop culture and all forms.
Please remember that, even though we are all licensed therapists, we aren't your
therapist. If you are struggling with mental health symptoms, please find a local
mental health provider. DA DA DA DA. Guys, we're finally talking about
The Atoms That White, and I'm really excited because this is one of my
favorite movies ever and it's season twenty twenty three upon us. So we're talking
about just the first Adams Family movie, the one from nineteen ninety one.
I believe, though we might reference here and there the sequels and other stuff
like that, we'll try to keep it to this movie. And before I
go further than that, I just want to let everybody know that our co
host Ben is on parentally. Which is very exciting, is that there's a
new baby in his home, so everyone send war messages to Ben. But
because of that, we don't have him with us today. But fortunately for
us, we found a replacement Ben, So I'm gonna throw it to our
guests today. I could never replace Ben, but I'm happy to be part
of this. Hello everyone, my name is Ben Tights. I am a
restored psychological associate in California, which basically means I'm a baby psychologist earning my
hours for licensure. I am a doctoral candidate hopefully gonna graduate next year.
I'm in IRB hell right now, sort of Any doctoral students know what I'm
talking about. I'm just waiting for them to behave themselves so I can do
my work. But I work in clinical and forensic psycho therapy, so I
worked with people on parole who or court order to treatment. Actually up until
recently, I just left that job and I'm just kind of focus on my
dissertation, but I do hope to continue in that field moving forward. And
I am the co host of two mental health related podcasts. You guys,
actually had my co host on in Your Mummy episode, Charlotte McPherson. But
the first podcast is Mental Health Quest, The Therapist Office and Beyond, and
my other podcast that is still starting up. We have got We just recorded
episode three yesterday and that is My Hero Therapy where we talk about all things
mental health and my hero academia. And that is done with my co host,
doctor Nicole Hassler out of Buffalo, New York. Go bills. I'm
obligated to say talk about her, all right. Cool, Well, I'm
so glad you could join us, and also a bit of trivia. Your
brother, doctor Tights was actually on one of our most recent episodes, inception.
Yes. Yeah, so it's a family affair. It is a family
fair. Isaac and I go and present at comic CON's together. We were
just at San Diego Comic Con in July, uh and we will be at
La Comic Con in December, though I can't say more about you know which
fanils whatnot, but we will be there. Oh cool, that's great.
Yeah. So if you guys are local to California listening and you're interested,
you're going to be at those cons as well. Check them out. Yeah.
So how do I summarize the Adams Family movie. I guess I could
do it like this, A rich family of Gothic misfits have a brother that
made the patriarch of the family, Gomez Adams. His long lost brother Fester
Adams quote unquote shows up twenty five years after the fact, when in reality
it is a con artists and his quote unquote mother adoptive mother, who are
convincing the Adam's family that they have found Fester. But he really is faster,
we learn by the end of the movie. So I guess it's kind
of a brief summation of it. So what we're going to talk about today
is, I guess answer the question. Are the Adams family a family of
quote unquote psychopaths? You know? So we'll touch a little bit on normalized
criminal behavior, antisocial personality disorders, and also privilege, right because they are
a very privileged family. We're also going to talk about enmeshment within abusive relationships,
specifically about Fester Adams or Gordon as he's known as his real identity supposedly
is for most of the movie, and his quote unquote mother, Missus Craven,
you know, apropos name, and then we will talk about treatment and
final thoughts as usual. So let's get into the main idea. Are the
Adams family a family of psychopaths? And why are we even asking that question?
Short answer, no path, But why are we asking the question?
Because they deviate from social norms in such an extreme way, which colloquially is
known as psychopathy and psychopaths. Fun factor all of our listeners. Psychopath is
not a diagnosis. Yep, we say that all the time on this podcast.
Not a diagnosis. It is more often than not a legal term,
but even then also not really used. It's not a legal defense. You
can't use that as defense in legal work. So it's just a social term,
I guess, because humans suck and they like to judge other people who
are different. Yeah, it's a foul term. And that's why we like
to me even putting that as our question is to bump on that idea because
even the way it's used, like a psychopath is not I guess what we
call person first language, which is writing someone off as a lost cause in
a lot of ways. Yeah. Absolutely, But we can like look at
like the different kind of items that are associated with psychopathy and kind of we
can see how like maybe some of them quote quote fit generally, but really
not. Actually, I'm looking at the the items right here. There's twenty
items on the PCLR, which is the psychopathy Checklist, and actually, like
they don't meet almost any of these, like glib okay, glib glibness,
that's a fun word, glibness or superficial farm I don't think that they're superficial.
They're very genuine in their charm and in the way that they interact with
each other and society. Absolutely, they don't have a grandiose sense of self
worthy. They don't really, because that relies that you're comparing yourself to other
people, and they don't do that. So they got a lot of money,
but they don't like say, oh, well I have money and so
I'm better than you. They don't say that. The one thing that maybe
they kind of do, at least kind of is needs for stimulation and proneness
to boredom. I mean Wednesday, she she when when bored, she tries
to kill her brother. But like, also she's doing that out of scientific
curiosity. That's true, you know, if God exists, and so she's
just trying to hypothesis you know absolutely, you know, so there we go.
She's not really she doesn't need the stimulation. She just kind of does
it. I don't see any pathological line. They're very honest. They're not
conning or manipulative. The other people in the movie, which we will get
to, are more manipulative than Conning. They don't show any lack of remorse
or guilt. In fact, going too much was too much. He's no
more a labile as we would say. He's over the place. That poor.
Yes, I'm going to attribute that to my fake astrology I've done to
him, and that he's like a cancer moon or something, and that's why
he's so emotional. I mean, I don't know much about astrology, but
sure that sounds right. I do only know about my own. I only
know about my own natroological sign, which is libra, so I only know
what that means. I don't know anyone else's. But you know, one
thing that Okay Wednesday has is a shallow affect. Yeah, she has like
no effect whatsoever. She's completely blunted. Yeah, monotone of voice, that
kind of thing, mon tone of voice, just completely no. And for
our listeners, I know, Ben, the other Bend has talked about this
before. Affect is how we are expressing our emotions for our model language through
our facial expressions. Wednesday don't got that she's just a brick wall, but
like one out of twenty, you know, that's yeah, the only thing
lack of empathy. No, they've got a lot of empathy. They are
actually more empathetic than everyone else in the in the community. And they're not
parasitic. They're not like taking advantage of other people. They actually, you
know Item ten poor behavioral controls. They've got good behavioral controls. It doesn't
seem like it to the outside, but we'll discuss that we talk about parenting.
They they got that. They don't exhibit any promiscuous sexual behavior, like
at all. I mean even when even Gomez and Mortitia, they're not overly
sexual. They're not promiscuous. They have a lot of PBA, but it's
actually very appropriate. It's relationship appropriate, it's even setting appropriate. It's not
totally wrong. I think the closest if he comes to inappropriate is that the
option, when it seems like he may be yeah, stimulating her in PC
terms, like during the option at the end. Yeah, So I think
but also, as we'll keep talking about this, is how much of it
is normalized behavior within their family structure and how much of it is them Because
you're right, like, they're not doing at most I say, they may
be engaging in like unconsensual kink behavior in public, which is not cool,
but who knows what their normal their norms are about that exactly. But they're
not being pushy and like being violent with their sexual stuff. They're not violent,
and they're not promiscuous either, Yeah they are. You know, we
argue that they're the most monogamous people that have ever existed in fiction. Yeah,
you know, and even maybe even in real life. I don't know.
Yeah. But like another one that maybe again kind of fit is item
twelve, which is early behavior problems. H depending on how we're we looking
at it to the outside world. Wednesdays, you know, wanted to lecture,
get your brother and walking on with the dr machete could be considered behavior
problems or the whole blood scene when they're doing their play. But again,
when we're talking about normalized behaviors in a family system, that's normalized and it
actually doesn't cause a problem for them in society. Other people in the society
are like, Okay, that's a little weird, but like she's not getting
arrested. Yeah, you know, there's no The only contact with the law
in this movie is the corrupt judge who was who just doesn't like that.
It's his golf balls into his house. That's that's it. Yeah, so
you know we can rule that one out. Lack of realistic, long term
goals. They've got long term boals. He's been trying to get his brother
back for twenty five years. He's committed. He's committed. Yeah, and
you know they don't show impulsivity. They plan things out. Yeah, they're
very thoughtful. They're very in their schemes. The little kids schemes are thought
out and they aren't getting caught, which makes me seem like it's either a
byproduct of their money or that they are genuinely good at, you know,
schemes. I mean, I would say Wednesday is very smart too. Like,
you know, I remember watching this movie thinking Wednesday is smart, and
I think going back to like the empathy part of it, the fact that
even Wednesday at such a little age can pick up on the dynamics of Fester
when he's more Gordon and be on the lookout for her family in that way,
I think speaks a lot about how empathetic they are and emotionally intelligent,
which when you work with people on more of like antisocial areas, like they
can kind of learn how to be emotionally intelligent percept like being perceived as such,
and they can sort of be that way, but they're not just innately
like picking up and caring about caring about those kind of things. And you
know, I've had a lot of times that are antisocial, and you know,
yeah, they can learn the things that appear as emotional helpments, but
they only can really exhibit them when they're being watched, when they're trying to
impress other people. Here when they isn't trying to impress other people. So
she has no reason to pretend to be emotionally aware. She is. She's
very perceptive of Gordon's confusion and feelings and everything like that. So that was
very genuine. Whereas someone with antisocial personality disorder, you know, yeah,
they can learn the things, but they don't do it naturally. It's not
natural to them. They just will act on it when they need to present
that way. There's no reason to present that way outside of her that's her
norm. So I think that's basically here that shows us more that she is
naturally emotional aware and intelligent and does have that empathy. She doesn't show her
emotions very well, but she's aware of other people's emotions. Yeah, yeah,
absolutely. And I was also thinking too that while of course they go
to school, they also don't really they do a lot of their playing at
home with each that's the other piece with each other. So also they're not
necessarily and who knows if they have rules, if their family has rules about
so like we only do this kind of play with your food. Yeah,
you have to play like you have to do these things at home, but
that when you out in the world, not necessarily, because otherwise I'm sure
that they would be getting constantly in trouble at school, Like it would be
really hard because they are children. It would be really hard to manage the
maybe impulsivity of reacting to everything the way that they react at home. But
it really seems like they're at home a lot, like you know, so
if anything, if any thing, or maybe isolated from their peers because for
that reason, but other but other than that, they they're mostly at home,
so that and we know that that's you know, that's normalized behavior at
home. Mm hmm, yeah, absolutely, And I mean to close off
the checklist. There's just a couple more they don't meet at all. I
mean, failure to accept responsibility for their own actions. They I don't see
that in the movie. They you know, Gomes is like, okay,
I you know, need to fix the situation, and he tries his best
to fix the situation, and they accept, you know, responsibility for themselves,
like okay, I were out of a house, I need to get
a job. You know, the kids are selling quote unquote lemonade. And
you know Motitia gets a job. You know she's yeah at a job before,
but she's accepting, Okay, you know what, this is what I
need to do, then this is what I'm going to do. So they
that one is a no go uh, this one. Many short term marital
relationships. We've always talked about that. You know, Gomez and Matsia are
the most monogamous ever. They are what modern society used as relationship goals,
like yeah, the side absolutely, and then the last couple are you know,
juvenile delinquency Again maybe kind of could be considered for Wednesday, and uh,
Pusley, but like not really because again they're not in society, so
they're not doing that out in the world. The not getting arrested anything,
so it's not delinquent then, and then the other two last two don't apply
at all. Raifocation of conditional release. Well, they've never been arrested,
so there's no conditional release and criminal versatility. They're not committing crimes other than
a guess destruction of property with the golf balls to the judge's house stop sign
thing. I think the stop sign thing is probably the most nefarious legit criminal
behavior that seems to have obviously ramifications in the community because they all pause to
hear the car accident. So I think that's the thing that I think gets
closest to that could become a problem in terms of Pugsley could get sent to
the that junior offenders camp that the ones later that Fester went to fester and
comes perhaps so yeah, which also could be a mark of like almost like
a mark of like a transitional initiation right of passage thing, could be getting
sent away to JUVI or some kind of JUVI related thing. And because I
guess we'll just name it here. This family is very rich, not just
like new money rich, but like generational wealth like do Bloom's wealth, like
vault wealth, Like we have secret passageways to secret passageways to our cave of
money, like Scrooge McDuck, right, like many generations, like they may
they probably were like pirates back in the day. There's probably treasure, Chess.
I think there are actually if you look at the scene, like the
scene where they go into their money when Fester like turns around in the thing,
like they have treasure, which says that who knows, like how far
back their estates go, maybe Dracula, who knows. Maybe they're like from
like Romani sort of stuff with their dance later kind of insinuates that maybe like
that's their cultural background anyway. But so one thing to note about that is
that when you have that kind of resources, you are able to clean up
a lot of messes. Right, we were even talking before we start recording,
is like I wonder if the Adam's family has a fixer like Tully is
clearly their like I guess financial manager or no, he's a lawyer. Oh,
he's their lawyer, Okay, And he's kind of they're finding person but
in setting things up, but they probably have a financial banker, like advisor,
a fixer, probably someone that they just like throw money at, to
throw money at situations, and so a lot of this stuff we're talking about,
we have to be aware that the consequences of any of their choices could
be nil to nothing, like like like even the because they have the money,
because they have the money to get out of it, absolutely and not
even money to get out of it as much as they just have as much
money as anybody would ever need or want, like a real yeah, like
it's unending. So so it isn't even like, oh no, we can
only pay this family fifty thousand dollars. It's like it doesn't matter how much,
which I think is exhibited in the scene where they are buying the finger
class back that the auction, the auction scene where we show that they're just
opping one another to the thing that they donated. Yeah, I love them,
things like why wouldn't they donated just to buy it back? But this
does go back to the question of, you know, with regards of criminality,
is you know, when doing risk assessments for people to kind of look
at you know, are they at risk of committing crimes and talk with that
financial stability, you know, is something that would be a protective factor.
They are definitely financially stable. Yeah, absolutely, Like a lot of times,
you know, people who have criminal histories also have a lot of instability
with financial you know, endeavors, whether the jobs or whatever, and so
they don't have that, so that would not be a real you know,
maybe, Okay, people can still commit crimes while being wealthy. We've seen
in examples of that in the real world, but that is one area where
we can say, well, crimes of material crimes would not be you know,
something here because they have no reason to steal. They have no reason
to do that because they can afford everything themselves. So kind of crimes that
people with money would do would be more like fraud or you know, things
like that. But they're not doing that, Like ye, they're not misrepresenting
themselves. They are truly genuine. So like this is who we are,
like like the kookie stuff. Yeah and yeah, And part of where I'm
going with that is so for let's say Pugly finally gets arrested for the stop
sign stuff because maybe people died or like not to laugh at that or something
like that happens, right, and he gets sent to juvie or even to
like prison if he's old enough to be tried as an adult. You know,
they don't have to worry about long term consequences, like, oh God,
how's he gonna get a job after this? Because he's a felony on
his record. They have money, They will take care of him. Maybe
it'll even be like a rite of passage, like I said, where he
gets maybe even more accepted within the family structure. Once again, it's out
of jail. So also they don't have to worry about the real life ramifications
of having a criminal history, of having that follow you around, of having
like those big ex felonies on your record that will prevent you. Because Hannah
and I used to work in community support and trying to get people housing jobs,
stuff like that when they had these heavy felony records, even if it
was like when they were eighteen and now they're in their forties, it follows
you around for life and really fucks your life up sometimes forever. So the
atoms don't have to worry about that stuff, and they don't have to worry
about being financially secure, being taken care of after there's no ramifications for doing
this stuff. And so what we're going on with all this as well is
all the clinicians or future clinicians listening is you have to be considered of what
sometimes called like the case case conceptualization, which is the full picture. Because
I Jess, Pugsy just Wednesday, or any of them came into my office
and I had no concept of their family structure and their culture norms in their
family, they would get diagnosed with one of these things either like conduct disorder.
For Pugsy, I feel like he would be a perfect textbook example of
conduct disorder in a vacuum, right. And when you take into the dynamic
of their whole family, like I said, it makes you bump on that
for the reasons we've brought up already, which is that they are a very
close knit, loving family where criminal behavior is not just normalized, but is
also highly praised. Like I wrote down, as many of I can notice
all the times where the kids do something and the parents are like, great
job, Like with the Pugly situation, the stop sign he brings in a
stop sign, he gets immediate praise from gamez. Not just praise from Gomas,
but the whole family stops eating to regale in the consequences of Pugsy doing
that right, supportive around this behavior, like you said earlier, when Wednesday
has the tiny knife, Mortitia stops her and gives her the bigger knife.
I even wrote down that Gomez had he said, I smoked cigar since I
was five. Mother insisted, like there's a lot of intergenerational encouragement, like
when they have their big party. Professor later, it's a whole family and
must be families like extended you know, pockets because they're marrying. Hannah got
upset with me because I kept saying, are Gomez and Morticia cousins? We
were watching, But if they're not, which I assume they're not, that
means that there are families, like groups of families, Yeah, that inter
marry and you know, party together and pump each other up and that kind
of thing. It's almost like a whole society is based on this kind of
behavior and this kind of it's normalized. It's it's it's it's normalized like in
there. It's a whole Yeah, it's a whole culture around these kind of
behaviors and and also and also maybe they're all privileged that could also be a
part of it. Maybe all of them also experience this privilege so that they're
able to engage in in this lifestyle the way that they uh the way that
they want to mm hmm. Yeah. And so, like I said,
when you're diagnosing clients are considering diagnosis, you have to think about all this
stuff, like you know, that's but when you work with kids, it's
why it's good to talk to their parents just to get a feel for like,
is this a behavior that's out of nowhere and the parents are just as
taken aback as you are? Or are you meet the parents and they're just
like the kids in the sense of like they engage with you in a similar
way. They are encouraging of the things that the kids are doing, or
they're making explanations or excuses for the kid's behavior. You know, it's very
important when you are assessing a kid with these sort of diagnoses like conduct that
you think about all that stuff because also conduct disorder is a diagnosis that will
follow you around and antisocial as well, like those are diagnoses will even other
clinicians will be very judgmental unfortunately, and stigma. There's a lot of stigma,
I guess, is what I'm saying. And so you also want to
be very careful that you're not branding a kid as conduct at ten and really
they're just doing the like what they can to get love and acceptance and praise
within their family system too, because one thing that the atoms don't have,
which I think you more, what I've more typically seen in families that have
more normalized antisocial or criminal behavior is scary consequences within the family structure for walking
outside the line. So a lot of families that do this more in Maine
in like real life, I guess, is there can be severe consequences internally
for not walking the line, for not basically validating the adults behavior by modeling
yourself. And so there isn't that here, which is actually says more about
how healthy that Adam's family are. That the kids aren't doing it because they're
scared of reproach, that they're scared of like being exiled or ostracized from the
family if they're not violent or criminal, or if they don't steal or act
out. Yeah, I mean, though we don't really see you know any
member of this culture who is not like that. So it's really hard to
see how the family would respond to a child that wasn't that like that,
Like, isn't as quote unquote criminal as Wednesday. Yeah, but like the
parents don't make him feel bad about it. It's like he has his own
way of doing things and that's totally fine. So I definitely don't believe that
Gomezer Medicia would you know, be like, you're no son of mine because
you won't you know, lot like whatever. Like I can see that it
just does not fit with their presentation as parents. Yeah, no, it
definitely doesn't. It would be really interesting, something that just popped into my
head, be really interesting if they had a kid who didn't want to do
any of those things and really wasn't interested and really just wanted to have like
a quote unquote normal life, that would be yeah, exactly exactly, So
that would be interesting to see. But at the same time, you know,
and what you said about their family and how accepting they are and how
loving they are, I feel like even they would even be able to,
you know, care for and love a child who was different no matter what,
because they're all different. Yeah, I'm trying to remember because I know
in the sequel, which I know we're trying hard not to talk about,
is their baby does flip right. It's but their baby is like kind of
I can't remember exactly, like poisoned or something to make it remember, the
baby goes good and then they all freak out, right, But I think
that's more a product of the situation that, like their baby didn't come out
the womb like quote unquote normal, something happens to it that flips it,
and that they that they identify as the kid the baby's sick. But I
feel like even then, if I remember correctly, more tshes trying to like
read more appropriate books to the baby, like so they are trying to make
it work, even though it's like killing them out of anxiety and like distress.
But that's but this that it would be different. I think if the
baby came out more like quote unquote regular, So I just wanted to point
that out in case people are screaming into their like phones or whatever. Like
Yeah, but in the second movie, their baby does go good and they
freak out. But I think that's I'd have to rewatch it again and kind
of understand the context. Now, because it's outside of their norm doesn't mean
they don't step the child that they couldn't get there exactly. So you know,
freaking out is not a sign of rejection. Reading out as a lineup,
I'm not familiar with this. How do I respond? That's what it
is, and that's what they did. They did, but they adopted,
like you said, Martia would start reading more appropriate books. So they're like,
Okay, figured out, Okay, this child is different, and that's
fine. I will still treat the child as I would treat any child,
you know, with what they need. Yeah, absolutely could. I would
also say to what is encouraging about that is they all have, like Martitia
Gomez, Wednesday Pugsy, all have very different personalities within the kookiness, right,
Like you said, Wednesdays flatter, more like I got mature and energy,
you know, She's kind of like the quiet type, you know,
very that way that is playful. Pugsy is more like a goofball. Gomez
is very his like arguably history like, he's very dramatic, he's very his
feelings are all over the place. And Mortish's more contained, right, so
more like Wednesday. But I would say, like so they're within the family,
there's not this expectation that we're all acting like Wednesday or they're all acting
like Morticia, Like there isn't this expectation that you can't have feelings or you
can't cry or you like, they're very they do allow each other within the
family to be themselves. And I was even arguing, like Gomez is so
authentic, Like they're all really authentic. They all pursue the things they really
like, Like he has his trains and they all know that about him,
and they're like, oh, no, Dad's using the trains. He must
be freaked out. Like they all accept each other's differences within the family structure
in a very loving way. They know each other's coping mechanisms, whether they're
healthy or not healthy, which they do acknowledge with the train thing, right,
Like, oof dad's doing that, that means he's stressed out. I
hope he's okay, absolutely, And I mean that I think that goes,
you know to what we were talking about with regards to the relationship pattern and
the dynamics, is that in a healthy relationship, whether it be family,
friendship or otherwise, you understand these aspects of the other person and you work
with them. Okay, this is Gomez his way. Then they knew,
oh, the train is getting to this point, like they could tell just
by the sound. Oh he's at this bridge, he's at this day.
Like the fact that they know that means this is something that happens often enough
for them to memorize it, which means that they're accepting of it. They're
like, Okay, he needs some space to play with his trains. You
know when he's upset. Great, he's doing something that's relatively not harmful to
the outside world. He's playing with trains. Yes, the trains blow up,
fine, but it's contained in the house. You know what. There's
a lot of kids who play with trains and then crash them and blow them
up. You know, they're not criminal either, So you know, it
shows how much that each of one of them recognizes Okay, well, this
is how going things. This is how Wednesday deals with things. This is
how public deals with things. You know, and even Mortician her mom,
her mom is you know, showing Okay, yes, this is this is
how I would do it, but maybe you would doing different. So yeah,
most generationals, you know, showing this kind of acceptance. MM hmm.
Yeah, and you're right in that they all are encouraging each other.
They're having dialogues all the time about how they're feeling and what do they need
and and that kind of thing, and there's no like even them doing the
seance every year for twenty five years. I think it's very telling about how
much Morticia and the kids just want to do a ritual for Gomez that helps
him feel like he's remembering his brother, like they there's no judgment really within
the family ironically, like there really is an acceptance of yourself. And you
see that in the way that they all engage. M Yeah, to be
to be rich enough, to be jobless, and you can just engage in
your hobbies and your true authentic self and I'll have to conform. I mean
that's kind of what like the Adams is showing as well, of like this
is what it looks like when you can afford to not conform. Yeah,
and you can kind of literally truly be yourself. Yeah, yeah, deal
with society. Yeah. And I think we'll see you when we get into
our next topic with the enmeshment part of it with Fester specifically is I think
what is also telling about how loving the Adams family is is that they demonstrate
that to Fester so much that I think it does help him get out of
the relationship peas in with his adoptive mother, which is like, oh,
this is what actually family feels like, to be like loved and accepted and
to not be manipulated or have like something hanging over your head that they're that
the Adams family are so loving that they show Fester this outsider to them,
you know, kind of that there is another way to be, and it's
a nice way to be, and you don't have to suffer the way you're
suffering in the dynamic you're currently in. But yeah, like I think you're
right on two, which is when they lose their money and they stay in
that hotel, Gomes suffers because he's more directly hit by the situation, right,
But you're right, like Mortitia is trying to take care of him,
She's trying to help the family. They're not doing that entitled rich person affluenza
thing where they're like, I'm just going to scream and shout until somebody helps
me. This is unfair, Like they're not. They're trying to adapt and
they just don't have the life skills to do it, to do it enough
to blend in given time. They probably yeah, they in the movie.
I don't know how much time pasts, probably a day or two. Yeah,
But you know it is very telling, you know, when you're saying,
oh, how some people when this catastilarhe hits, how they will just
scream like, well, I want something to help me? But what does
it mean help? What does that mean to you? So some people help
means you give me things, you do the atoms, they help themselves.
So I have this need. We need money. I'm going to get a
job. And it's not just morticially getting a job Wednesday and are getting jobs,
you know, lemonade, a tonic of some sort or a death tonic.
People need that. Sometimes there is there's a market for it, just
maybe not in their community. But again, the shows that they are responsible,
that they recognize. Okay, here's a situation, here's a problem.
How do I solve a problem given the circumstances that I'm in and so many
people when they are caught an alerts like that where like everything is taken away,
you know, it is very difficult to adapt to that. I mean
absolutely and That's what leads to a lot of criminal behavior, is when you
lose everything that you've known, that all the structure in your life is gone.
You know, you react. You know it's like, well, I
need this and so I'm going to take it. Whereas here they said,
okay, I need money for food. They didn't rob a bank, they
didn't do anything like that. She went and read books to kiddergarteners, and
they sold beverages. We're just going to call them beverages. But like they
did the societally appropriate thing. So there's no deen there, there's nothing depiant
about it. M Yeah. That is what's kind of ironic is when they're
in the actual opportunity where we might forgive or understand more criminal behaviors, they
don't rely on those because that's not what they need to feel like. They're
not dependent on those behaviors. It's more like a product of their like I
said, their cultural norms, their familial personalities. It's not how they they
don't need it in order to keep going in the world, Like in a
way where it's like I have to be scamming, or I have to be
conning, or I have to be like taking or I have to be Like
a lot of stuff with conduct and antisocial is trying to in different ways like
assert your dominance over other people, and they're not. They're never trying to
do that. I would argue that when people enter their world, like Tully's
wife, they actually are very infester too. Like they're very open, they're
very welcoming, you know, they are wanting to be inclusive as much as
they are like societal quote unquote outcasts if you will. Yeah, And just
another thing with regards to that and the criminal behaviors. If you're raised in
a culture that does embrace the criminal behaviors, some people when they lose that,
which still engage with those criminal views because that's what's known to them,
that's their world view. I had a lot of clients that growing up were
involved with games. You know, that's what they knew in the family.
It was, you know, normal to steal and do all those things.
But then okay, you're now facing the situation where you can't do that.
How do you do you just keep doing it because that's all you know,
or do you try to find Okay, well I need to do the adaptive
thing. And that's what they did. They you know, welcome people into
their home when they didn't have to. They live alone, mentioned away from
everybody else. They don't have to accept anybody into their home. They choose
to. Yeah, I would say, and this is probably a product of
the story like this is the clever screenwriting, is that they're surrounded by criminals.
As we said earlier, totally, I think is more of what we're
describing, which is someone who is in a pinch. We don't really know
why he's in such a pinch financially, and so he was always assumed I
always assumed gambling. I mean, probably something along the side, I don't
know, I don't know why, or maybe just living beyond their means.
And now he's in a pickle. And so what's ironic about Tully is that
he engages in more of that secretive, assuming the worst, getting what I
can behavior, Whereas I beg you if you just straight up asked Gomez for
a loan, or even just straight up as for a gift, like hey,
can you give me fifty grand I'm really struggling. Go must probably be
like, oh sure, I you want this goblet. I'm that sitting on
my desk. That's worth six hundred thousand dollars, you know what I mean,
like I feel, and I think that says so much about the discrepancy
between these personalities. Is that totally is because he's engaging more than that criminalized
behavior is assuming the worst, you know, instead of the best, which
is I think what the atoms is really believe in, which is that inclusivity
factor and that generosity and all those things that when you're in a family that's
more criminal for whatever reason, because it's usually systemic why people get that way.
So I want to be careful about how we're talking about families that engage
in this stuff. Is that there's a lot more secret keeping. There's a
lot of more exclusivity. When I work with families that fall into my office
or in the past because they've had to can it takes a long time to
get the kid to talk or the family to talk because there's so much secrecy
in the ways that they conduct their everyday life. So I think the fact
that they're also so open in generosity and spirit says a lot about the fact
that they're not you know, engaged, They're not a family psychopaths, They're
not I mean, the like we talked about before recording that people committing the
crimes are the quote unquote normies. Yeah. Yeah, and we see his
reasoning for committing the crime was financial. He didn't have money, his other
clients were not paying or whatever. You know, he and he owed money
to miss Craven, so you know, the loan shark. So that is
you know, criminal behavior and thinking right there, Okay, I need money.
I'm going to take advantage of my clients, you know, because that's
what I need to survive. Criminal behavior is more often than not, are
an attempt to meet a need in a maladaptive way. And that's what's here.
I don't know what Craven's motivations for crime are, but it seems like
she just wants to have the money so she can live away from everybody else
and not deal with other people, you know, she can just be her
and her quote unquote son. You know, ironically, she wants what the
Atoms have, which is money in isolation. M hm yah. Is there
anything else we want to say about the Adams as a whole before we slide
into our next topic? Well no, okay, so we'll take a break
there and be right back. All right, So we're getting there in terms
of the next group of characters or pair of characters in this movie, which
is I'm gonna call him Gordon, but Fester and his mother mother Craven,
if you will, ironic name, and how they are actually a more of
these things we've been talking about, which is like more criminalized behavior. I
would say he's actually someone where I would say the way he shows up for
the majority of the movie is a product of what we've been talking about so
far, which is that I have to engage in criminal behaviors to keep my
place in my family system, to get security within that relationship with my mother
as far as he knows. And we're actually seeing someone with her that is
displaying more of the tendencies we've been seeing, which is she sees a mark
and her first thought is like to dominate and to deceive and to see what
she can get away with, and she like being coercive. All the stuff
that we've been talking about that you could attribute to the atoms we actually see
with this character and her relationship with Gordon. So I'm gonna throw it to
you, Hannah, if you want to kind of explain, like we say
in Mesh within an abusive relationship, like, what can that look like?
So enmeshment, the best way to describe in meshment is essentially that it's two
people who are so intertwined with each other in terms of personality, in terms
of how we act around other people, that they actually are like one person,
which is really unhelpful because really what it's doing is is it is allowing
one person to be dominant and kind of overtake the other person with their behaviors
and their personality. And so it's really hard because has as we know,
something that we all work towards with our clients is towards individuation, is towards
you being your own person with your own thoughts and beliefs and your own behaviors
that you engage in that are working towards the values that you have about your
life. So but simply enmeshment really is is when two people become have the
same values and same goals as each other in a way that is unhealthy,
in a way where one person is actually trapped with the other person and feels
like they can't get away from them or can't individuate in any kind of way,
because that will undo the system that they're in Yeah, and so in
this Dame specifically is where in meashment can occur. So in meshment can occur
a lot of different ways. We've talked about this with single parents in the
past, like if there's a single parent and an only child, there can
be some organic enmeshment that occurs just because the two of you in a lot
of ways. And sometimes what I work with people as adults with enmeshment,
I have to be very careful that I'm not vilifying your parent or you that
like, you know, this is just a product of some of the environment
and it's getting in the way unfortunately now of the things you're wanting for yourself,
either because you feel like you can't make your own choices, or you
don't feel empowered, or that like your regulation is dependent upon this other person.
You never want anyone anyone I work with at least this is part of
the individuation to feel like they can only regulate if someone else is regulated right
emotionally. And so as you see with an abusive relationships like we see in
this movie, is Craven is taking advantage of that enmeshment, which is that
it seems like she has well one she met Fester in a very vulnerable state.
We're not sure how old he was because they don't bring that up other
than it was twenty five years ago. I can't imagine he's not an adult
when that happened, Like he's got to be in his forties. I feel
like the story would work better if maybe he was like thirteen or fifteen when
they found him in the tunanette, as she says. And so she has
someone who is quote unquote has amnesia, that is very vulnerable, and so
she's able to one like take advantage of him in that dynamic, right,
she makes him totally dependent upon her, and then she uses him as a
pawn with his with all her criminal behaviors. Right, and she does the
thing like I said, we've been talking about, Like there's a very clear
scene later in the movie when he's starting to untangle from her because by becoming
part of the Adams family, ironically, he starts to, like I said,
feel the love and affection that that's truly unconditional. And he starts and
this is what happens when I work with people, or when I when we
see people in mesh relationships, is that if they start encountering more healthy,
unconditional relationships, like positive unconditional regard, even if it's with their therapists.
Sometimes they start to realize, like, oh, my relationship with my mother
or my partner or my best friend or whoever doesn't feel good. Actually,
And now I have something to base that on, because what she also seems
to have done with Fester Gordon is isolate him, right, And that's more
of an abusive isolation, which is that like he doesn't have any socials support
system outside of her. We find out in like the second movie. I
think he's a virgin, you know, so he hasn't had romantic relationships,
He hasn't had like friendly relationships that we can see other than her. So
yeah, and I think and I think that a part of that, right
when you're with somebody who's abusive, is that they want you to be isolated,
They want you to only depend on them. They want they take advantage
of those of those parts, and it's and it makes it really hard for
someone to leave, makes it really hard to extrapulate themselves on their own because
they're so dependent on this other person. Yeah, yeah, And so then
how that works in her favor is a situation like later in the movie when
he, like I said, he's starting to individuate from her because he's getting
more acclimated to the atoms, and he doesn't show up for her, I
think because he goes to the play right, and then when he shows up
in her and she's in his bedroom right at the Adams family house, and
she's like, I don't know exactly what she says, but she throws the
typical like I guess I'm a horrible mother. I guess you don't love me.
I guess I'll just go home and die. Like she does the very
histrionic, over the top punitive behavior like if you individuate from me, I'm
gonna kill myself or I'm going to you know, it's because you don't love
me. You know. She holds those consequences, those emotional consequences and literal
consequences right of like I'm going to rip myself from you because you have dared
to step outside the line of what I'm wanting. And so she's threatening his
social system, his support system, his financial system. And that's when I
say, like, this is an abusive relation, because there's that clear power
dynamic where she is has isolated him, like you said, and then she
can weaponize that later because he has nobody else. Because also, something that
I think is very interesting Infestor's presentation in this movie, and when we do
the sequel, we can get into that more now that he's out of this
dynamic, but we can only think of it in terms of the dynamic he's
in with Mother, is that he's so young. He has very much like
arrested development, Like he's very infantilized in this movie, and he seems that
way too, Like with the Atoms, it's like he's almost he feels like
a teenager in a lot of ways, or like a kid in a lot
of ways. And that happens when you've been isolated and when someone is taking
advantage of continued infantilization, you know, Like there she keeps them in that
Mommy Sun dynamic and also like not to get into into it, and if
you want to hear more about this kind of shit, you can listen to
our Psycho episode from like many years ago. Is that there is also that
kind of pseudo sexual energy that she's also taken advantage of, like he like
holding his head against her bosom to comfort them, right, well, it's
very much like because she's playing on the role of mother as guide and comforter
and everything, and so she's reinforcing that by pressing his head against her bosom,
you know, to be like, see, look, mother can do
this, can make you feel this way, and so you need to do
what mother wants. Others you lose this thing that is very primal humans.
Yeah, you have that primal urge to have that comfort from our caregivers or
from other people in our society. You know, we are sorry, I
just like choked on nothing, just whatever. We are social creatures and the
desire for a hug. Yes, that it is very powerful. And for
someone investors position who doesn't remember having it before, that's a point too.
He had that amusing so he didn't remember. I I can't say for sure
that his mother did that, but I would imagine she did. I mean,
we see how how warm and open Gomez and Mortitia are. YEA even's
mother is very open and warm, so I can't imagine that Gomez Infestor's mother
would be anydifferent. Even if she did encourage stars at age five, you
know, she was still very warm and company. But if you don't remember
that and so you didn't have it. He never had it so far as
he knows. Now he has it. But again it's conditional. So it's
she's taking advantage of those primal needs. And that's what that's what abusive individuals
do in abusive relationships. They take advantage of your needs when it's physical abuse,
mental abuse, whatever, it's you need something and I have it,
and so if you want this, then you have to give me what I
want. Yeah. They feed on scarcity, like fear around, like they've
created a scarcity with getting your needs met and they take advantage of that.
And it's not because some in meastment relationships are very they don't have that power
dynamic like they can just be very like we unfortunately use each other to corregulate.
We don't know how to regulate without each other. And this one is
more of that, like, yeah, that abusive dynamic where she is taking
it. She could probably regulate without him, you know, and she probably
does. Yeah, and so but she's taking oh, go ahead. Her
Her behavior to me very much seems like someone who's putting on an act.
Yeah, when she's with Gordon, and very much like she is, she's
able to do whatever she needs to get her needs met, but she puts
on this role and because she's abusive, right, she's abusive, so she
puts on this role that she has to in order to continue the abuse of
Gordon. Yeah, so she might be like through a temper tantrum if you
will, or be super upset or pissed that he is not acquiescing to her,
But she's not like I'm gonna spin out and I'm gonna like I can't
feel better until Gordon has done this, that and the other. Like she
acts as as such, right, and maybe she'd even kind of believe that,
like it's Gordon's fault that I feel this way, YadA YadA. But
when I see more like codependent enmeshment, it's more of like we just are
too dependent on each other to feel better and we don't know how to feel
better without the other one acquiescing in some way. And that is different here,
like that dynamic is different. She is conditioning enmeshment with him, And
to go with what you were saying about how she's convincing herself that it is
his fault. That kind of listen to somebody we talk about with it,
or to displacement. Oh yeah, you know, she's you know, if
I'm unhappy, she doesn't want to basically acknowledge and take responsibility for her unhappiness
is too much for her, so it's easier to blame it on him,
who is defenseless and vulnerable. And you know, to going back to that
checklist, she meets more of the markers of psychopathy than the Adams family does.
Yeah, yeah, because where she might quote unquote present is in mesh
But I would disagree and say it's more of that like psychopathy or antisocial Is
that not taking ownership for her behaviors and for the consequences. That's different than
in Meshment, you know, where it's more like you've made me feel this
type of way so I can't control myself. That's more like what in Meshment
can look like versus I have now consequences that I don't agree with and fuck
you and you did this to me to continue that dynamic where the other person
feels disempowered, feels attached, And that's very different than more like codependent in
Meshment, you know, but they are they are textbook like that that scene
where she does hold him responsible after the play because she can tell that he
is pulling away from her. That to me is like typical almost like typical
of parental abuse. But I also you can see it in romantic relationships too,
where it's like, yeah, how dare you go make friends? How
dare you leave me here all alone while you're not having fun and probably talking
to other guys? And is that what I hear some people now call narcissistic
abuse? But I'll have to look into that phrase before I speak anything to
that from a more factual versus fiction perspective. Yeah, definitely. I mean
it's just, let's just say stereotypical abuse, whether it's correct its abuse,
Yeah, like she meets into a team. Yeah. And also I will
say there's a degree of that that is somewhat normalized within culture. And what
I mean by that is, I think a lot of people that I've worked
with at least but although in the world, have experienced parents who go straight
to the I guess I'm a bad mom. I guess you know, fuck
me. I guess like when you do try to hold them accountable and probably
not even aware because of their own stuff that they are dependent upon and enmeshed
power dynamic yeah, yeah, or the image of it. Even sometimes it's
not even that they're trying to take it, but they get so used to
the image of I'm a good mother, I'm doing all these things, when
the child is like, okay, but those things are like not what I
need. Or you're doing these other things. Yes, you do those nice
things, and you're also doing something that's hurtfle. They can't take that,
and so it's you know, it's like, oh, well, then I
guess I just failed altogether. It's an all or nothing thinking. Yeah.
So unfortunately, it is very common, and you know, I think very
much so in more like Western society because of the like heavy the emphasis on
family dynamics is different in Western society than in other cultures, and so there
is a lot of this, you know, at least in America. You
know, got to you know, obey your mom and dad, you know,
those kinds of mentality, you know, mother knows best kind of things,
like us are allowed to do whatever they want because you have to be
grateful forever that they they had sex at least once and you came out of
them that and then that they you know, are paying for your you know,
food and everything. But that it's basically that that them raising you as
a child, wasn't that that it wasn't their choice. That oh they're doing
it out of obligation to you, and so you need to be grateful to
them. Yeah, and that's when they start to pull up and it's like,
fine, I'm not going to pay for your stuff. And you know,
if it's someone like Faster who has nothing else, yeah, well that's
incredibly terrifying, which goes to that social evolutionary you know, component of it
is humans you know that you know can't handle rejection because in our evolutionary passed,
if we were rejected from our tribe, we would be without sustenance.
We would be without in the wilderness with you know, all the you know,
lions and tigers and bears online. You know here we see it here.
Though. Yes, he can easily get his knees met elsewhere, and
you know in people in real life or in these positions can find support elsewhere,
but it doesn't feel that way because our brains are like seeing it in
the same way. Oh my god, without this support, I'm gonna die.
Yeah, and you know, to channel to channel the other bend.
I don't remember which which episode were you guys talking about. But if you're
talking about the tiger, you know, is a tiger actually going to eat
you? If yes, then GTFO, that's actually important to deal with.
But if not, then we need to examine our responses to it. And
this is the difference between fear and anxiety. Fear is a response to actual
threat. The tiger is actually there is actually eating. Anxiety is a response
to a perceived threat. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a great point.
And and that's what she is feeding off of. And then, like
I said, a lot of times, how people will get out of these
dynamics is they're introduced to a different dynamic that challenges the one they're currently and
like, oh it could be different than this oh shit, Like I could
be in a family that just loves me and there's no conditions and there's no
threats and there's no like And I even came into a family where they could
have really shit on me because of the day, like they could have been
like Fester, how dare you? Like where have you been? And he's
just open with loving arms And unfortunately, going back to norms, like within
a family system, is that until you kind of venture out, you might
not realize how I abnormal your dynamic is with whoever you're enmeshed with until like
a lot of times when I go to when people see me in therapy,
I might be the first one who's like, you know, your relationship with
your dad is a bit if you don't mind me saying is a bit en
meshed, and can I explain why? And because this is the most I
think textbook version of that where the where the highs are high and the lows
are very low. But a lot of times in like more mainstream society,
when I work with this, it's more like, is your parent depending on
you a little bit too much emotionally? Do you have to be available all
the time at a moment's notice if you say no to them? Is there
really big consequences? Are you to have an anxiety about saying no? So
that's how it can look more in the subtler ways this dynamic, And then
it becomes a thing where do we need to broad in our social circle?
And if are we freaked about that? Because if we brought in our social
circles that can be threatening to are in messed relationship. And then if that
happens It's really hard for clients to argue with me about if they're su or
not, because I'm like, why is it feels like such a big deal
to like go to a friend's house on a Sunday instead of your mom's.
Why are you're so worried about that? Why are you so anxious about that?
So that's the part of their dynamic that is that is real, that
is well, I guess, factual, and feels realistic to me. The
part of their story that is not so realistic is doctor pinderschlash So Craven does
go undercover, if you will, she scams as a psychologist, a German
psychologist. I think I think she's trying to do like a Freudian accent.
Oh yeah, I was watching this with Isaac, my brother, and you
know, he does a good Freudian accent. He was just like, oh,
I do love her little thing like they caught and like her whole like
annunciation. It's a Bonker's accent on purpose, like you can't tell what she's
doing. But she does talk about the theory of displacement, and so the
theory of displacement just to do some fact versus ficion. It is a Freudian
concept, which is I'm sure where she snagged from. Also with the demeanor
in the vibe she's putting out, there's very Freudian and it's one of his
many defense mechanisms that people like to still talk about a bunch, which is,
you know, trying to think of other ones projection. Let me think
there's like several Right, I'm not a big Freudian person, so I don't
keep up to date on Freudian and stuff. So a lot of the defense
mechanisms are still around, just like projection, rationalization, regression, you know,
aggression, all those kind of things. I mean, they exist regardless,
you know. Yeah, And so her the way that she describes this
placement is like I'm feeling you're feeling guilty about Fester. You don't want to
be guilty, feel guilty about Fester, so you're being hateful to him,
and you're trying to push him away and create him as like an impostor as
he says. And so that's how she disc theory of displacement. So,
like all good scammers, she gets part of it right and part of it
wrong. Yeah, in that the actual theory of displacement is more the example
that we all thought of actually, which when we were talking about before recording,
is you have a shitty boss to treat you like shit. It's not
safe to be aggressive towards your boss to or to call your boss out because
you could lose your job and they're for your money or social standing or whatever.
So you go home and you scream at your wife. Like that's more
classic displacement, Like I don't feel like I can put my feelings where they
actually appropriately go because for whatever reason, I feel like I can't do that.
So I'm gonna put those feelings somewhere, because, believe it or not,
people, your feelings go somewhere. They don't just disappear because you don't
want to deal with them. They will, you will, They will just
come out in a different way, right yep. And so what they're more
talking about, I don't know how I would describe what she's more talking about
nonsense. I mean, it's not nonsense what she's saying in the sense that
like Fester is having more like under the surface feelings that he's not comfortable with,
and so that's coming out his irritability and like pushing Fester away because he
can't deal with how he's feeling, Like that's not absurd, you know what
I mean in concept, but the way that she's trying to like sum it
up. And also she keeps using displacement as a noun, which is kind
of driving me nuts. Yeah, it is a displacement, and it's like,
well, that's not how you use that word in my opinion, like
you are displacing your emotions, you know. Yeah, yeah, I think
you know where she is getting things, you know, slightly right, is
there are feelings that Gomez is having about the situation because his expectations, his
idea of how things should be are not matching up with the reality. And
instead of trying to identify those feelings and work around them and figure out,
okay, well this is how I thought it would be when I was reading
I with my brother, Yeah, how it is, and how do I
deal with the current situation? You know, that would be realistic, you
know, whereas it instead, she's pushing them actually to you know, to
treat him more like an impostor, which is ironic because that goes against her
criminal needs. But she's not good at this, so yeah, she's making
it up. She truly making up. She probably just saw the word displacement.
So the first sentence of the definition is like, oh yeah, actually,
you know sound smart and people will just listen to me. And also
she's playing off of the authority figure out psychiatrists. I know what I'm talking
about. You have to listen to me, which in olden days was you
know, used by a lot of professionals, not just psychiatrists to do some
not so cool things. Yeah, she's doing that thing too, which is
not a good therapist move, but people think is a good therapist move,
which is telling people what they feel and why they feel it and how they're
feeling instead of provoking insight. Because if Alma's came in my office and he
was like, fuck my brother, blah blah blah, I would be like,
Okay, tell me what's going on, what's happening underneath that? Why
does it feel hard? Why do we think about you know what I mean?
Like, she's not She's giving them quote unquote an answer and they're running
with it, but they don't have enough context to really know what to do
with it other than they have a name for it now. Because it's not
like the medical model of thinking, where once you have the diagnosis, you.
You you can just do it. You can just know what to do.
Now, there has to be a lot of context and exploration and being
mindful of triggers and all that kind of stuff. Right, So she's doing
what I think we've sometimes been shown what therapists are supposed to do, but
very poorly. She's just she's she's not a real therapist pretending. Sure,
I'm sure we'll get into this in the treatment section, but like if you
had a family like this, yes, you need to provide some psycho education
about the terms, but then you still have to go with, Okay,
what does that mean to you? How are you experienced versus you are this?
You are doing? You are doing this? I mean I never I've
never had that they ever say that to me, thank god, And I've
never said that to a client, like you are doing this? I would
My way of challenging in that kind of way would be like because They'll say,
oh, well, you know this is how it is, and I'd
be like, is it though? I learned from do the head tilt?
And you're like, tell you more about that? What does that mean that?
Like that's the way it should be. You should ask them for their
definitions, they're the experience of their story. Anything else about this before we
go into treatment. All right, we'll take another break here. Okay,
So treatment, I know, Ben, you have an interesting topic in your
pocket, so I will throw to you first about treatment. So thank you.
I mean, it's not really treating, because I not. So we
talked before recording about treatment for that family, and none of them need treatment
because not really. No, they're a very healthy family, ironic, very
healthy. So instead I'm going to choose Okay, I couldn't really decide between
either Tully or Craven. I'm going to choose Tully only because we tell you
we have a little bit more information about what his situation is, and you
know, and I'm looking at this in the terms of Okay, he gets
caught doing this scam and this crime, and so he's quote ordered to treatment.
And so because I don't think he would go by himself as a dead,
especially in the time frame that this seems to be taking place in therapy
wasn't really that talked about. So it's assuming it's modern day, you know,
where they had court order treatment, because I don't think they had that
back then. You know, what would we talk about we talked about,
Okay, well, what's going on in your life? You know that is,
and what are the attitudes and beliefs that may or may not be healthy
or adaptive? We would look at we're definitely I would, you know,
to go f Audian, I guess look at his childhood. Yeah, you
know, because Eugene spoiler alert to all lot of the listeners, everything comes
from childhood. It's a cliche because it's true. Unfortunately, you get that
right absolutely, because the way he might have been raised influences that the attitudes
and beliefs he had about this situation. But for me, you know,
after we go through the childhood story, you know, I would let him
tell his story and I might ask questions about, oh, what didn't that
mean at that time for you? Or how did your family attribute this or
deal with this kind of situation, particularly money. You know, I can
see someone like him who's very anxious for societal approval but also the relationship approval,
to seek out what society views as good. You know, he became
an attorney, he became a lawyer because society views that as successful. He
clearly wasn't a very good lawyer. Indeed, different ways I'm not a lawyer,
but my parents wanted me to be, so I think I can talk
about this. No. Well, Also, i's if his kids are in
the same school as the Adams is. It is make me curious. Also
if if he's living above his means, trying to look more prestigious absolutely than
he is. I don't know if he has children, do they have the
one? Remember, because she says I want to eat him. He's just
like he's too young. Yeah, the his and in his relationship also basically
there's a lot of him trying to present himself as something. But he's also
not communicating with his wife about the stressors in his life, and so she
leaves him for it, right, which is good for her because she's innocent
in this story. She's the true victim here is. But my therapy for
him would be to look at where did these needs come from? And how
were you trying to address those needs in a way that clearly was not helping
you. So what are some other ways that we can address those needs and
understanding attitudes and beliefs about these behaviors and about the pics. That would be
my treatment for Tully. Okay, I think it's great, Hannah, do
you want to go next? Sure, I'll go next. So when I
thought about this, kind of like Ben already said, the family is very
healthy and very loving and very supportive, and I would even and also the
reallyationship between Gomez and Martitia is amazing and beautiful and lovely. So the only
thing that I was thinking about is with Fester and his so he is now
he's been in a relationship for I don't know, for twenty five years.
You know, he's been in this relationship for twenty five years that has been
abusive and unhealthy and has had a huge impact on his mental health. And
I would want to work with Fester and help him identify. When I work
with people who have been in an abusive relationship or are in an abusive relationship,
some of the things that I try to point out right away are are
what does a healthy relationship look like? What does an unhealthy relationship look like?
And what does an abusive relationship look like? Because they're all a little
bit different. And I would really want to help him identify those things,
help him understand what his needs are, and help him understand how he can
advocate for himself in those relationships. Because I think a big part of while
he's now connected to the family in a very healthy way and has kind of
taken his role in the family system in the Adams family, he hasn't had
any He hasn't really had any outside relationships that don't include someone that's his quote
unquote family. So he hasn't so he hasn't really had a good example of
what a relationship should look like, what it can look like. I mean,
we could say that his relationship with Gomez is probably a more healthy relationship,
but it's also very new to him, and he also didn't have to
do He didn't have to suss out Gomez in that way because Gomez was already
so loving and caring and had been caring this love for his brother for a
long time, so so Fester didn't have to is this healthy? Is healthy?
It feels like it feels good? It is healthy, and helping him
identify that for in a romantic way, helping him really understand that so if
he does have any romantic pursuits, as we know he does in the second
film, then we can help him find a relationship that meets his needs and
allows him to be the individual that he is. And doesn't suppress. He
doesn't have to suppress any parts of himself to be in a relationship because it
doesn't feel safe. So I think that that's what I would want to do
with Bester. I think it's great, and you're right on because the sequel
happens. I think what you're talking about is what takes place in the sequel,
which I think once we do that, when it's all going to make
perfect sense. Based on what you just even shared and how we've talked about
today, is that he falls for the first person who love bombs him,
if you will, right, And I think that can happen. And you've
been in relationships that are this engrossing, and I would argue that the Atoms
unfortunately might normalize it might normalize love bombing even more for him because they are
almost too loving in that that will probably get in the way of maybe discerning
new relationships, like you said, so with me, Like I said,
it's hard to know. I was just thinking as a child therapist. They've
chosen to put Wednesday and Pugsley in like mainstream school, which I think is
an interesting decision. It sounds like martitious of that she had tutors at least
for college. They do feel like a homeschooling family, Like a lot of
families that have strong cultural norms that are outside of like the mainstream will tend
to I like, will tend to homeschool like kind of in the way we
talk think about cults and stuff and like really orthodox religious communities and things like
that. So it is interesting that they are choosing to put their kids in
typical society. And so I was just thinking as a child therapist who worked
with families a lot that are put into therapy, not necessarily choosing to be
to therapy. They feel like the kind who would come into my office because
the kids are being so out of pocket, Like the play, for example.
I think the play would be an instance in which they might say,
like you're either going to have to be expelled or you're gonna have to go
to this youth program that'll do family therapy in one on one therapy. I
worked at a place where that was the case for a lot of families,
like either your kid gets kicked out of school or they do this program,
or they have to do a lot of therapy. So I would probably have
to do some parent coaching with that Gomez Mortitia, just in the sense of
if you're going to choose to put your kids into mainstream society in this way,
like there might have to be a bit of an assimilation in terms of
conduct, in terms of behavior, unless you don't care, right, if
you don't care that they keep getting in trouble, which I know is the
context with this keep on keeping on. But if there is something they're wanting
for their kids, like I said, it'd be interesting to know why they
made that choice, and then I could help them discern how to do that.
So sometimes that was what I did with parent coaching and working with families
is not so much like traditional family therapy as you would think of it,
but more like, hey, we have to switch up our family dynamic because
it's having consequences now that we can't live with anymore. They're coming up to
bite us. And so my job is more like, actually, this is
more how you could it's more like social skills building and how do we set
limits we've never had to set before, and how do we encourage both autonomy
and authenticity while also having to live within a structure that will require you to
like curb maybe your authenticity a little bit if it's coming out in a way
that's more criminal or abnormal, I guess. And so that's what I would
do with them. That's the only thing I can really think of, because
this seems like they're choosing to live someone outside of their norms. Yeah,
so there's a consequence to that, just in how society will view you and
if they're really wanting that for their kid, if they're wanting some assimilation.
I mean, they do sending to camp later. So I mean, that's
all stuff we could talk about, like as we get into the sequel.
So that's like the only thing I can really think of the treatment because they
have the movie magic of Fester gets hit by lightning, right, he gets
all his memories back, so there doesn't really have to be any working Fester
back into the family dynamic and helping him that way because he knows who he
is now. Yeah, all that stuff. Yeah, yeah, absolutely,
all right, So we'll take one last break here and then go to final
thoughts. So now we'll do final thoughts, Ben, why don't you go
first? Uh? Yeah, So I love this movie. I don't remember
the first time I saw it. It was a long time ago. I
mean, it came out that year I was born, so I didn't see
it when you came out, obviously. I don't think my parents would have.
You know, I'd been watching that as a big but when I was
watching it this time round with my brother, just there's so many things going
on, there's so many themes about family dynamics and everything that just was so
great. But all all, it's just a great movie. It's very warm,
it's very fun, serious sometimes but a lot of laughter. You just
can't help but enjoy the movie. And I mean, for a franchise like
this that this was how it started. It started off strong and it kept
going strong. I mean we mentioned the sequels. There's a new Netflix series
Wednesday, which was amazing. You know, I just love the series.
I love the Adams family as a whole and all that they stand for.
You know, so my thumb two thumbs up for me, all right,
And so Ben, I know you have to skid out all So thank you
for joining us today. Can you let everybody know where they can find you
one more time? Yes, you can find me through my two different podcasts,
Mental Health Quest again. You can listen to them whereever podcasts are found.
But Mental Health Quest on social media Facebook and Twitter at MHQ podcast,
and My hero Therapy is on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at my hero
Therapy. All right, great, thank you so much for joining us.
Thank you, thank you so much. All Right, I can go next.
So my final thoughts is, I feel like I have a memory of
seeing this movie in theaters, which I don't know how that can be true
because I must have been five years old. But also this is very family
friendly, like advertised movie, so maybe. And also the thing it's based
on, the sixties show is like so wholesome in a lot of ways,
like it's from back in the day when like you couldn't even share a same
bed with your partner on TV, so I wouldn't be shocked. I guess
if I was taken to see this when I was really little, because it's
very family friendly. Maybe I saw a sequel. I don't know, but
that did imprint on my psyche in that I love this movie. I've seen
it a billion times. My bathroom is themed Adam's family, not bananas,
just like my shower curtain, my bath mat and the two frame photos.
But I love it so much. I used to have a Wednesday costume.
So I used to have long, dark hair, and so it was a
very easy costume. Just braid my hair, put on some white makeup,
and I'm ready to go. So I love this movie. It's interesting with
like the Wednesday TV show that it's definitely come back in the zeitgeist, very
like Wednesday Forward. But I love goma Is and Mortitia. I just love
everything about it. What's kind of sad if you really think of it,
like this is Charles Adams who created Adams Family initially back in the day.
Was his name Charles Adams, I think so who did the original like newspaper
cartoon of it. He created Adams Family as like the antithesis to the American
family, so kind of the opposite. So goma Is being so to his
wife is actually was supposed to be a radical inverse of what I would see
at the time, which I guess is guys threatened, like you know in
back in the What's I'm thinking of not Jackie Gleeson, but that sitcom from
Forever Ago where he was always thtarting to punch his wife in the face,
like I'll take it to the moon, alex Alice, Like there was a
lot of media back then, of guys like low key high key hating their
wives. Domestic violence was a joke that you'd see on sitcom. So it's
not shocking. It's sad, but it's not shocking that Charles's perception of the
inverse of what he sees in media and what would be a radical idea was
a guy who was totally into his wife and they have like a happy,
loving sexual relationship way past having kids and stuff like that. So I think
this movie is, like you might even mention Hannah, really positive relationship modeling,
in that Gomez and Mortish are a couple that are still da eating each
other if you will. They're still making space for each other. They're very
loving and sexual towards each other. They understand each other, they understand their
kids. You could argue that are they benefiting Obviously they are from their privilege,
which allows them to just focus on each other. They don't have jobs
to worry about, like we do see when they have their first stressor that
Gomez does shut down and Martitia does have a hard time reaching him. But
that's like over days, so who knows how they could have bounced back if
that was like a long term situation. But no, I love this movie.
I'll watch it every Halloween and more so, this will be the one
and many many times I will see it. And now I'm getting psyched up
to watch. I'll probably watch the sequel sometime in like the next few weeks,
and I'm excited to talk about that when we next get to get to
that movie. So I will watch this over and over again. I love
the Adams family. They're my favorite, Hannah. I also love the Adams
family. I love the film. I love the I love the I love
the way the film looks. I love the spooks. Yes that is shown.
I love the lighting. I absolutely adore the half lighting of Martitia's face
all the time. I love that absolutely. I also love that she looks
like she floats. I think that's amazing. And I and again, like
you know, a lot of times on the podcast, we talk about families
that are hard, and we talk about families that are dysfunctional and have many
different kinds of problems. But one of the things that's so beautiful about this
film is that the families is really supportive and loving and kind and thoughtful and
authentic, and that's not something we see in film and even though it's a
booky movie and has those that ascetic to it, it still has really beautiful
relationships. I would argue that Gomez and Martisha have one of the most healthy
relationships, and again because of their privilege, right, Like that's we're not
going to say that's not you know, that doesn't play a part, but
that they have a really healthy relationship that I know I aspire to have.
Oh hell yeah, because who wouldn't want that? It's so beautiful and so
lovely. So I also love this film because I think even though we have
an abusive relationship, we have a lot of really healthy relationships and really kind
and beautiful relationships. Like one of the things I think is really interesting is
we don't see Wednesday and Pugsy arguing. We don't see them fighting with each
other. They're always they're like playing or engaging with each other in some kind
of way. So again, just just kind of what Brittany said, like
a lot of really healthy relationships, a lot of really brilliant acting. Christina
Ritchie as a little, tiny, tiny human, so cute, so cute,
and so amazing, and so is Pugsley. I always loved Pugsy too.
His silly smile that he gets on his face. He does something that
his family approves of, and and I love. Yeah, I just love
everybody in this film. And I'll watch it every year at least once or
twice. I'm super excited to watch the next movie. It might happen today.
I might not be able to stop myself from watching it. So yeah,
so I love this film and I will always watch it. Yeah,
I'm not shock you like Pugsy because you also love Jeene Belcher from Bob's Burgers,
And I feel like there's some overlap in terms of Pugly's presentation and personality
in Gene Belcher. I could see that. I can see that. I
don't think you're wrong. I don't think you're wrong. And of course,
the one thing we did not mention on the podcast today is Batman, and
so I want to make sure that we talk about Batman at least for a
second to honor our Ben unable to show up. And I would just say
that Adam's family loves bats and so does Batman. Yeah, what would it
be like if Bruce Wayne moved into the Adams family post his parents awful death?
You know? Which? Of course I know all about because I've seen
the origin story of his parents' death how many times? Thousand times? I
now so many times? Yeah, yeah, so we will wrap up there
because Hannah and I could talk about Adam's family just how we think about it
forever, forever, forever. So yeah, go check it out if you
haven't watched it, and as always, you can find us on Facebook,
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We really appreciate you all. We're excited for spooky season. We miss you.
Ben. I hope you're snuggling up with Batman somewhere and we will see y'all later