1 00:00:15,759 --> 00:00:20,199 Welcome to Popcorn Psychology, the podcast where we watch blockbuster movies and psychoanalyze them. 2 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:23,399 My name is Brittany Brownfield and I'm a child therapist and I'm joined by 3 00:00:23,679 --> 00:00:27,879 Ben Stover, individual therapist, Hannah Espinoza, marriage and family therapists. We're 4 00:00:27,879 --> 00:00:32,079 all licensed clinical professional counselors also known as therapists, who practice out of Chicago. 5 00:00:32,439 --> 00:00:35,920 Even though we are licensed mental health professionals, this podcast is purely for 6 00:00:36,039 --> 00:00:40,240 entertainment purposes and to fulfill our love of dissecting pop culture and all forms. 7 00:00:40,399 --> 00:00:43,799 Please remember that, even though we are all licensed therapists, we aren't your 8 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:47,280 therapist. If you are struggling with mental health symptoms, please find a local 9 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:53,439 mental health provider. DA DA DA DA. Guys, we're finally talking about 10 00:00:53,439 --> 00:00:56,880 The Atoms That White, and I'm really excited because this is one of my 11 00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:03,640 favorite movies ever and it's season twenty twenty three upon us. So we're talking 12 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:06,680 about just the first Adams Family movie, the one from nineteen ninety one. 13 00:01:06,719 --> 00:01:10,519 I believe, though we might reference here and there the sequels and other stuff 14 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:14,519 like that, we'll try to keep it to this movie. And before I 15 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:17,560 go further than that, I just want to let everybody know that our co 16 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:21,920 host Ben is on parentally. Which is very exciting, is that there's a 17 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:25,879 new baby in his home, so everyone send war messages to Ben. But 18 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:27,879 because of that, we don't have him with us today. But fortunately for 19 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:30,920 us, we found a replacement Ben, So I'm gonna throw it to our 20 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:34,879 guests today. I could never replace Ben, but I'm happy to be part 21 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:40,319 of this. Hello everyone, my name is Ben Tights. I am a 22 00:01:40,439 --> 00:01:46,879 restored psychological associate in California, which basically means I'm a baby psychologist earning my 23 00:01:47,159 --> 00:01:52,640 hours for licensure. I am a doctoral candidate hopefully gonna graduate next year. 24 00:01:53,519 --> 00:01:57,239 I'm in IRB hell right now, sort of Any doctoral students know what I'm 25 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:00,799 talking about. I'm just waiting for them to behave themselves so I can do 26 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:09,120 my work. But I work in clinical and forensic psycho therapy, so I 27 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:15,280 worked with people on parole who or court order to treatment. Actually up until 28 00:02:15,319 --> 00:02:19,400 recently, I just left that job and I'm just kind of focus on my 29 00:02:19,439 --> 00:02:24,199 dissertation, but I do hope to continue in that field moving forward. And 30 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:28,800 I am the co host of two mental health related podcasts. You guys, 31 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:34,680 actually had my co host on in Your Mummy episode, Charlotte McPherson. But 32 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:38,800 the first podcast is Mental Health Quest, The Therapist Office and Beyond, and 33 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:42,919 my other podcast that is still starting up. We have got We just recorded 34 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:47,879 episode three yesterday and that is My Hero Therapy where we talk about all things 35 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:52,680 mental health and my hero academia. And that is done with my co host, 36 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:57,639 doctor Nicole Hassler out of Buffalo, New York. Go bills. I'm 37 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:02,199 obligated to say talk about her, all right. Cool, Well, I'm 38 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:06,560 so glad you could join us, and also a bit of trivia. Your 39 00:03:06,599 --> 00:03:09,800 brother, doctor Tights was actually on one of our most recent episodes, inception. 40 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:14,680 Yes. Yeah, so it's a family affair. It is a family 41 00:03:14,759 --> 00:03:20,199 fair. Isaac and I go and present at comic CON's together. We were 42 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:23,520 just at San Diego Comic Con in July, uh and we will be at 43 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:29,000 La Comic Con in December, though I can't say more about you know which 44 00:03:29,039 --> 00:03:31,719 fanils whatnot, but we will be there. Oh cool, that's great. 45 00:03:31,759 --> 00:03:35,840 Yeah. So if you guys are local to California listening and you're interested, 46 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:39,360 you're going to be at those cons as well. Check them out. Yeah. 47 00:03:39,439 --> 00:03:44,240 So how do I summarize the Adams Family movie. I guess I could 48 00:03:44,319 --> 00:03:51,039 do it like this, A rich family of Gothic misfits have a brother that 49 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:53,680 made the patriarch of the family, Gomez Adams. His long lost brother Fester 50 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:59,280 Adams quote unquote shows up twenty five years after the fact, when in reality 51 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:03,800 it is a con artists and his quote unquote mother adoptive mother, who are 52 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:08,719 convincing the Adam's family that they have found Fester. But he really is faster, 53 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:13,400 we learn by the end of the movie. So I guess it's kind 54 00:04:13,439 --> 00:04:16,160 of a brief summation of it. So what we're going to talk about today 55 00:04:16,519 --> 00:04:21,160 is, I guess answer the question. Are the Adams family a family of 56 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:26,720 quote unquote psychopaths? You know? So we'll touch a little bit on normalized 57 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:30,439 criminal behavior, antisocial personality disorders, and also privilege, right because they are 58 00:04:30,439 --> 00:04:35,079 a very privileged family. We're also going to talk about enmeshment within abusive relationships, 59 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:42,040 specifically about Fester Adams or Gordon as he's known as his real identity supposedly 60 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:46,160 is for most of the movie, and his quote unquote mother, Missus Craven, 61 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:49,480 you know, apropos name, and then we will talk about treatment and 62 00:04:49,519 --> 00:04:54,879 final thoughts as usual. So let's get into the main idea. Are the 63 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:59,480 Adams family a family of psychopaths? And why are we even asking that question? 64 00:05:00,319 --> 00:05:05,120 Short answer, no path, But why are we asking the question? 65 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:14,600 Because they deviate from social norms in such an extreme way, which colloquially is 66 00:05:14,639 --> 00:05:18,759 known as psychopathy and psychopaths. Fun factor all of our listeners. Psychopath is 67 00:05:18,759 --> 00:05:23,920 not a diagnosis. Yep, we say that all the time on this podcast. 68 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:27,879 Not a diagnosis. It is more often than not a legal term, 69 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:31,360 but even then also not really used. It's not a legal defense. You 70 00:05:31,399 --> 00:05:36,160 can't use that as defense in legal work. So it's just a social term, 71 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:41,240 I guess, because humans suck and they like to judge other people who 72 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:45,279 are different. Yeah, it's a foul term. And that's why we like 73 00:05:45,399 --> 00:05:49,399 to me even putting that as our question is to bump on that idea because 74 00:05:49,759 --> 00:05:53,720 even the way it's used, like a psychopath is not I guess what we 75 00:05:53,759 --> 00:05:58,879 call person first language, which is writing someone off as a lost cause in 76 00:05:58,879 --> 00:06:03,199 a lot of ways. Yeah. Absolutely, But we can like look at 77 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:11,360 like the different kind of items that are associated with psychopathy and kind of we 78 00:06:11,399 --> 00:06:15,920 can see how like maybe some of them quote quote fit generally, but really 79 00:06:16,439 --> 00:06:19,720 not. Actually, I'm looking at the the items right here. There's twenty 80 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:27,279 items on the PCLR, which is the psychopathy Checklist, and actually, like 81 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:33,079 they don't meet almost any of these, like glib okay, glib glibness, 82 00:06:33,079 --> 00:06:38,800 that's a fun word, glibness or superficial farm I don't think that they're superficial. 83 00:06:38,879 --> 00:06:42,680 They're very genuine in their charm and in the way that they interact with 84 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:47,439 each other and society. Absolutely, they don't have a grandiose sense of self 85 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:53,199 worthy. They don't really, because that relies that you're comparing yourself to other 86 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:56,560 people, and they don't do that. So they got a lot of money, 87 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:59,040 but they don't like say, oh, well I have money and so 88 00:06:59,079 --> 00:07:02,319 I'm better than you. They don't say that. The one thing that maybe 89 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:08,199 they kind of do, at least kind of is needs for stimulation and proneness 90 00:07:08,199 --> 00:07:14,920 to boredom. I mean Wednesday, she she when when bored, she tries 91 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:19,040 to kill her brother. But like, also she's doing that out of scientific 92 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:25,399 curiosity. That's true, you know, if God exists, and so she's 93 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:30,000 just trying to hypothesis you know absolutely, you know, so there we go. 94 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:32,680 She's not really she doesn't need the stimulation. She just kind of does 95 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:41,000 it. I don't see any pathological line. They're very honest. They're not 96 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:44,360 conning or manipulative. The other people in the movie, which we will get 97 00:07:44,399 --> 00:07:49,240 to, are more manipulative than Conning. They don't show any lack of remorse 98 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:56,360 or guilt. In fact, going too much was too much. He's no 99 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:59,879 more a labile as we would say. He's over the place. That poor. 100 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:03,959 Yes, I'm going to attribute that to my fake astrology I've done to 101 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:05,759 him, and that he's like a cancer moon or something, and that's why 102 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:11,680 he's so emotional. I mean, I don't know much about astrology, but 103 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:15,759 sure that sounds right. I do only know about my own. I only 104 00:08:15,839 --> 00:08:18,560 know about my own natroological sign, which is libra, so I only know 105 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:24,360 what that means. I don't know anyone else's. But you know, one 106 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:30,000 thing that Okay Wednesday has is a shallow affect. Yeah, she has like 107 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:35,159 no effect whatsoever. She's completely blunted. Yeah, monotone of voice, that 108 00:08:35,279 --> 00:08:39,039 kind of thing, mon tone of voice, just completely no. And for 109 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:41,559 our listeners, I know, Ben, the other Bend has talked about this 110 00:08:41,639 --> 00:08:46,559 before. Affect is how we are expressing our emotions for our model language through 111 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:52,759 our facial expressions. Wednesday don't got that she's just a brick wall, but 112 00:08:52,919 --> 00:08:58,600 like one out of twenty, you know, that's yeah, the only thing 113 00:09:00,759 --> 00:09:03,320 lack of empathy. No, they've got a lot of empathy. They are 114 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:11,440 actually more empathetic than everyone else in the in the community. And they're not 115 00:09:11,519 --> 00:09:16,600 parasitic. They're not like taking advantage of other people. They actually, you 116 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:22,399 know Item ten poor behavioral controls. They've got good behavioral controls. It doesn't 117 00:09:22,399 --> 00:09:26,120 seem like it to the outside, but we'll discuss that we talk about parenting. 118 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:31,240 They they got that. They don't exhibit any promiscuous sexual behavior, like 119 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:37,440 at all. I mean even when even Gomez and Mortitia, they're not overly 120 00:09:37,519 --> 00:09:41,600 sexual. They're not promiscuous. They have a lot of PBA, but it's 121 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:46,000 actually very appropriate. It's relationship appropriate, it's even setting appropriate. It's not 122 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:50,559 totally wrong. I think the closest if he comes to inappropriate is that the 123 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:56,720 option, when it seems like he may be yeah, stimulating her in PC 124 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:00,720 terms, like during the option at the end. Yeah, So I think 125 00:10:00,919 --> 00:10:05,519 but also, as we'll keep talking about this, is how much of it 126 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:09,720 is normalized behavior within their family structure and how much of it is them Because 127 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:13,360 you're right, like, they're not doing at most I say, they may 128 00:10:13,399 --> 00:10:18,919 be engaging in like unconsensual kink behavior in public, which is not cool, 129 00:10:20,039 --> 00:10:24,000 but who knows what their normal their norms are about that exactly. But they're 130 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:30,440 not being pushy and like being violent with their sexual stuff. They're not violent, 131 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:33,039 and they're not promiscuous either, Yeah they are. You know, we 132 00:10:33,519 --> 00:10:37,759 argue that they're the most monogamous people that have ever existed in fiction. Yeah, 133 00:10:39,159 --> 00:10:41,440 you know, and even maybe even in real life. I don't know. 134 00:10:41,519 --> 00:10:48,759 Yeah. But like another one that maybe again kind of fit is item 135 00:10:48,799 --> 00:10:52,360 twelve, which is early behavior problems. H depending on how we're we looking 136 00:10:52,399 --> 00:10:58,519 at it to the outside world. Wednesdays, you know, wanted to lecture, 137 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:01,399 get your brother and walking on with the dr machete could be considered behavior 138 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:07,039 problems or the whole blood scene when they're doing their play. But again, 139 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:11,399 when we're talking about normalized behaviors in a family system, that's normalized and it 140 00:11:11,519 --> 00:11:16,639 actually doesn't cause a problem for them in society. Other people in the society 141 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:20,519 are like, Okay, that's a little weird, but like she's not getting 142 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:24,720 arrested. Yeah, you know, there's no The only contact with the law 143 00:11:24,879 --> 00:11:28,879 in this movie is the corrupt judge who was who just doesn't like that. 144 00:11:30,759 --> 00:11:35,879 It's his golf balls into his house. That's that's it. Yeah, so 145 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:41,200 you know we can rule that one out. Lack of realistic, long term 146 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:43,960 goals. They've got long term boals. He's been trying to get his brother 147 00:11:45,039 --> 00:11:50,679 back for twenty five years. He's committed. He's committed. Yeah, and 148 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:54,480 you know they don't show impulsivity. They plan things out. Yeah, they're 149 00:11:54,559 --> 00:12:00,360 very thoughtful. They're very in their schemes. The little kids schemes are thought 150 00:12:00,399 --> 00:12:03,639 out and they aren't getting caught, which makes me seem like it's either a 151 00:12:03,639 --> 00:12:11,000 byproduct of their money or that they are genuinely good at, you know, 152 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:16,440 schemes. I mean, I would say Wednesday is very smart too. Like, 153 00:12:18,159 --> 00:12:22,320 you know, I remember watching this movie thinking Wednesday is smart, and 154 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:24,759 I think going back to like the empathy part of it, the fact that 155 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:30,679 even Wednesday at such a little age can pick up on the dynamics of Fester 156 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:35,399 when he's more Gordon and be on the lookout for her family in that way, 157 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:39,200 I think speaks a lot about how empathetic they are and emotionally intelligent, 158 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:46,080 which when you work with people on more of like antisocial areas, like they 159 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:50,919 can kind of learn how to be emotionally intelligent percept like being perceived as such, 160 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:56,519 and they can sort of be that way, but they're not just innately 161 00:12:56,639 --> 00:13:01,320 like picking up and caring about caring about those kind of things. And you 162 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:05,279 know, I've had a lot of times that are antisocial, and you know, 163 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:09,960 yeah, they can learn the things that appear as emotional helpments, but 164 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:16,320 they only can really exhibit them when they're being watched, when they're trying to 165 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:20,480 impress other people. Here when they isn't trying to impress other people. So 166 00:13:20,519 --> 00:13:26,360 she has no reason to pretend to be emotionally aware. She is. She's 167 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:33,200 very perceptive of Gordon's confusion and feelings and everything like that. So that was 168 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:37,720 very genuine. Whereas someone with antisocial personality disorder, you know, yeah, 169 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:41,759 they can learn the things, but they don't do it naturally. It's not 170 00:13:41,879 --> 00:13:46,080 natural to them. They just will act on it when they need to present 171 00:13:46,159 --> 00:13:50,240 that way. There's no reason to present that way outside of her that's her 172 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:58,200 norm. So I think that's basically here that shows us more that she is 173 00:13:58,399 --> 00:14:03,279 naturally emotional aware and intelligent and does have that empathy. She doesn't show her 174 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:09,360 emotions very well, but she's aware of other people's emotions. Yeah, yeah, 175 00:14:09,399 --> 00:14:13,919 absolutely. And I was also thinking too that while of course they go 176 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:20,360 to school, they also don't really they do a lot of their playing at 177 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:24,919 home with each that's the other piece with each other. So also they're not 178 00:14:24,159 --> 00:14:28,679 necessarily and who knows if they have rules, if their family has rules about 179 00:14:28,679 --> 00:14:31,960 so like we only do this kind of play with your food. Yeah, 180 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,679 you have to play like you have to do these things at home, but 181 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:39,200 that when you out in the world, not necessarily, because otherwise I'm sure 182 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:43,279 that they would be getting constantly in trouble at school, Like it would be 183 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:48,799 really hard because they are children. It would be really hard to manage the 184 00:14:48,879 --> 00:14:54,320 maybe impulsivity of reacting to everything the way that they react at home. But 185 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:58,480 it really seems like they're at home a lot, like you know, so 186 00:14:58,559 --> 00:15:05,000 if anything, if any thing, or maybe isolated from their peers because for 187 00:15:05,039 --> 00:15:09,039 that reason, but other but other than that, they they're mostly at home, 188 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:13,200 so that and we know that that's you know, that's normalized behavior at 189 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:18,000 home. Mm hmm, yeah, absolutely, And I mean to close off 190 00:15:18,039 --> 00:15:24,440 the checklist. There's just a couple more they don't meet at all. I 191 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:28,639 mean, failure to accept responsibility for their own actions. They I don't see 192 00:15:28,639 --> 00:15:31,320 that in the movie. They you know, Gomes is like, okay, 193 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:37,840 I you know, need to fix the situation, and he tries his best 194 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:41,759 to fix the situation, and they accept, you know, responsibility for themselves, 195 00:15:41,759 --> 00:15:43,960 like okay, I were out of a house, I need to get 196 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:50,240 a job. You know, the kids are selling quote unquote lemonade. And 197 00:15:50,519 --> 00:15:54,960 you know Motitia gets a job. You know she's yeah at a job before, 198 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:56,679 but she's accepting, Okay, you know what, this is what I 199 00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:00,399 need to do, then this is what I'm going to do. So they 200 00:16:00,919 --> 00:16:06,399 that one is a no go uh, this one. Many short term marital 201 00:16:06,399 --> 00:16:11,639 relationships. We've always talked about that. You know, Gomez and Matsia are 202 00:16:11,639 --> 00:16:18,639 the most monogamous ever. They are what modern society used as relationship goals, 203 00:16:19,159 --> 00:16:26,279 like yeah, the side absolutely, and then the last couple are you know, 204 00:16:26,399 --> 00:16:32,639 juvenile delinquency Again maybe kind of could be considered for Wednesday, and uh, 205 00:16:33,039 --> 00:16:37,120 Pusley, but like not really because again they're not in society, so 206 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:40,600 they're not doing that out in the world. The not getting arrested anything, 207 00:16:40,639 --> 00:16:45,159 so it's not delinquent then, and then the other two last two don't apply 208 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:48,600 at all. Raifocation of conditional release. Well, they've never been arrested, 209 00:16:48,639 --> 00:16:55,679 so there's no conditional release and criminal versatility. They're not committing crimes other than 210 00:16:55,919 --> 00:17:00,600 a guess destruction of property with the golf balls to the judge's house stop sign 211 00:17:00,679 --> 00:17:04,960 thing. I think the stop sign thing is probably the most nefarious legit criminal 212 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:11,880 behavior that seems to have obviously ramifications in the community because they all pause to 213 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:15,400 hear the car accident. So I think that's the thing that I think gets 214 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:22,079 closest to that could become a problem in terms of Pugsley could get sent to 215 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:27,079 the that junior offenders camp that the ones later that Fester went to fester and 216 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:34,119 comes perhaps so yeah, which also could be a mark of like almost like 217 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:41,799 a mark of like a transitional initiation right of passage thing, could be getting 218 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:45,440 sent away to JUVI or some kind of JUVI related thing. And because I 219 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:51,559 guess we'll just name it here. This family is very rich, not just 220 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:56,359 like new money rich, but like generational wealth like do Bloom's wealth, like 221 00:17:56,640 --> 00:18:00,440 vault wealth, Like we have secret passageways to secret passageways to our cave of 222 00:18:00,519 --> 00:18:06,599 money, like Scrooge McDuck, right, like many generations, like they may 223 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:08,759 they probably were like pirates back in the day. There's probably treasure, Chess. 224 00:18:08,759 --> 00:18:11,319 I think there are actually if you look at the scene, like the 225 00:18:11,319 --> 00:18:15,759 scene where they go into their money when Fester like turns around in the thing, 226 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:23,240 like they have treasure, which says that who knows, like how far 227 00:18:23,319 --> 00:18:27,559 back their estates go, maybe Dracula, who knows. Maybe they're like from 228 00:18:27,599 --> 00:18:33,400 like Romani sort of stuff with their dance later kind of insinuates that maybe like 229 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:38,519 that's their cultural background anyway. But so one thing to note about that is 230 00:18:38,559 --> 00:18:42,920 that when you have that kind of resources, you are able to clean up 231 00:18:44,839 --> 00:18:47,920 a lot of messes. Right, we were even talking before we start recording, 232 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:51,400 is like I wonder if the Adam's family has a fixer like Tully is 233 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:56,039 clearly their like I guess financial manager or no, he's a lawyer. Oh, 234 00:18:56,039 --> 00:19:00,200 he's their lawyer, Okay, And he's kind of they're finding person but 235 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:07,000 in setting things up, but they probably have a financial banker, like advisor, 236 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:11,240 a fixer, probably someone that they just like throw money at, to 237 00:19:11,279 --> 00:19:15,319 throw money at situations, and so a lot of this stuff we're talking about, 238 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:21,160 we have to be aware that the consequences of any of their choices could 239 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:25,960 be nil to nothing, like like like even the because they have the money, 240 00:19:26,079 --> 00:19:29,039 because they have the money to get out of it, absolutely and not 241 00:19:29,079 --> 00:19:32,160 even money to get out of it as much as they just have as much 242 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:37,119 money as anybody would ever need or want, like a real yeah, like 243 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:40,720 it's unending. So so it isn't even like, oh no, we can 244 00:19:40,759 --> 00:19:44,200 only pay this family fifty thousand dollars. It's like it doesn't matter how much, 245 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:52,799 which I think is exhibited in the scene where they are buying the finger 246 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:56,559 class back that the auction, the auction scene where we show that they're just 247 00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:03,640 opping one another to the thing that they donated. Yeah, I love them, 248 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:08,759 things like why wouldn't they donated just to buy it back? But this 249 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:12,200 does go back to the question of, you know, with regards of criminality, 250 00:20:12,319 --> 00:20:17,920 is you know, when doing risk assessments for people to kind of look 251 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:21,440 at you know, are they at risk of committing crimes and talk with that 252 00:20:21,799 --> 00:20:26,319 financial stability, you know, is something that would be a protective factor. 253 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:32,200 They are definitely financially stable. Yeah, absolutely, Like a lot of times, 254 00:20:32,599 --> 00:20:36,799 you know, people who have criminal histories also have a lot of instability 255 00:20:36,839 --> 00:20:41,920 with financial you know, endeavors, whether the jobs or whatever, and so 256 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:44,640 they don't have that, so that would not be a real you know, 257 00:20:44,799 --> 00:20:48,519 maybe, Okay, people can still commit crimes while being wealthy. We've seen 258 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:52,599 in examples of that in the real world, but that is one area where 259 00:20:52,599 --> 00:20:57,200 we can say, well, crimes of material crimes would not be you know, 260 00:20:57,279 --> 00:21:00,200 something here because they have no reason to steal. They have no reason 261 00:21:00,279 --> 00:21:06,640 to do that because they can afford everything themselves. So kind of crimes that 262 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:14,640 people with money would do would be more like fraud or you know, things 263 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:18,559 like that. But they're not doing that, Like ye, they're not misrepresenting 264 00:21:18,599 --> 00:21:22,599 themselves. They are truly genuine. So like this is who we are, 265 00:21:22,759 --> 00:21:27,119 like like the kookie stuff. Yeah and yeah, And part of where I'm 266 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:32,799 going with that is so for let's say Pugly finally gets arrested for the stop 267 00:21:32,839 --> 00:21:37,960 sign stuff because maybe people died or like not to laugh at that or something 268 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:41,160 like that happens, right, and he gets sent to juvie or even to 269 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:44,799 like prison if he's old enough to be tried as an adult. You know, 270 00:21:45,079 --> 00:21:48,720 they don't have to worry about long term consequences, like, oh God, 271 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:51,200 how's he gonna get a job after this? Because he's a felony on 272 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:53,039 his record. They have money, They will take care of him. Maybe 273 00:21:53,039 --> 00:21:56,079 it'll even be like a rite of passage, like I said, where he 274 00:21:56,160 --> 00:22:00,319 gets maybe even more accepted within the family structure. Once again, it's out 275 00:22:00,319 --> 00:22:04,920 of jail. So also they don't have to worry about the real life ramifications 276 00:22:06,279 --> 00:22:10,240 of having a criminal history, of having that follow you around, of having 277 00:22:10,279 --> 00:22:14,079 like those big ex felonies on your record that will prevent you. Because Hannah 278 00:22:14,079 --> 00:22:18,680 and I used to work in community support and trying to get people housing jobs, 279 00:22:18,759 --> 00:22:22,200 stuff like that when they had these heavy felony records, even if it 280 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:25,880 was like when they were eighteen and now they're in their forties, it follows 281 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:29,880 you around for life and really fucks your life up sometimes forever. So the 282 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:33,799 atoms don't have to worry about that stuff, and they don't have to worry 283 00:22:33,839 --> 00:22:41,440 about being financially secure, being taken care of after there's no ramifications for doing 284 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:45,200 this stuff. And so what we're going on with all this as well is 285 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,359 all the clinicians or future clinicians listening is you have to be considered of what 286 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:53,759 sometimes called like the case case conceptualization, which is the full picture. Because 287 00:22:53,759 --> 00:22:59,160 I Jess, Pugsy just Wednesday, or any of them came into my office 288 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:03,000 and I had no concept of their family structure and their culture norms in their 289 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:07,039 family, they would get diagnosed with one of these things either like conduct disorder. 290 00:23:07,079 --> 00:23:11,640 For Pugsy, I feel like he would be a perfect textbook example of 291 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:18,799 conduct disorder in a vacuum, right. And when you take into the dynamic 292 00:23:18,839 --> 00:23:22,640 of their whole family, like I said, it makes you bump on that 293 00:23:22,759 --> 00:23:26,559 for the reasons we've brought up already, which is that they are a very 294 00:23:26,599 --> 00:23:33,440 close knit, loving family where criminal behavior is not just normalized, but is 295 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:37,599 also highly praised. Like I wrote down, as many of I can notice 296 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:41,319 all the times where the kids do something and the parents are like, great 297 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:44,960 job, Like with the Pugly situation, the stop sign he brings in a 298 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,960 stop sign, he gets immediate praise from gamez. Not just praise from Gomas, 299 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:56,319 but the whole family stops eating to regale in the consequences of Pugsy doing 300 00:23:56,319 --> 00:23:59,759 that right, supportive around this behavior, like you said earlier, when Wednesday 301 00:23:59,759 --> 00:24:02,920 has the tiny knife, Mortitia stops her and gives her the bigger knife. 302 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:08,559 I even wrote down that Gomez had he said, I smoked cigar since I 303 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:15,599 was five. Mother insisted, like there's a lot of intergenerational encouragement, like 304 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:19,799 when they have their big party. Professor later, it's a whole family and 305 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:26,559 must be families like extended you know, pockets because they're marrying. Hannah got 306 00:24:26,599 --> 00:24:32,119 upset with me because I kept saying, are Gomez and Morticia cousins? We 307 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:33,960 were watching, But if they're not, which I assume they're not, that 308 00:24:34,039 --> 00:24:40,759 means that there are families, like groups of families, Yeah, that inter 309 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:45,359 marry and you know, party together and pump each other up and that kind 310 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:49,720 of thing. It's almost like a whole society is based on this kind of 311 00:24:49,759 --> 00:24:56,640 behavior and this kind of it's normalized. It's it's it's it's normalized like in 312 00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:02,559 there. It's a whole Yeah, it's a whole culture around these kind of 313 00:25:02,599 --> 00:25:07,720 behaviors and and also and also maybe they're all privileged that could also be a 314 00:25:07,759 --> 00:25:12,319 part of it. Maybe all of them also experience this privilege so that they're 315 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:18,960 able to engage in in this lifestyle the way that they uh the way that 316 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:22,440 they want to mm hmm. Yeah. And so, like I said, 317 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:26,240 when you're diagnosing clients are considering diagnosis, you have to think about all this 318 00:25:26,279 --> 00:25:30,240 stuff, like you know, that's but when you work with kids, it's 319 00:25:30,279 --> 00:25:32,880 why it's good to talk to their parents just to get a feel for like, 320 00:25:33,039 --> 00:25:36,240 is this a behavior that's out of nowhere and the parents are just as 321 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:41,119 taken aback as you are? Or are you meet the parents and they're just 322 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:45,160 like the kids in the sense of like they engage with you in a similar 323 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:48,160 way. They are encouraging of the things that the kids are doing, or 324 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:52,799 they're making explanations or excuses for the kid's behavior. You know, it's very 325 00:25:52,839 --> 00:25:59,119 important when you are assessing a kid with these sort of diagnoses like conduct that 326 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:03,119 you think about all that stuff because also conduct disorder is a diagnosis that will 327 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:07,480 follow you around and antisocial as well, like those are diagnoses will even other 328 00:26:07,519 --> 00:26:12,720 clinicians will be very judgmental unfortunately, and stigma. There's a lot of stigma, 329 00:26:12,759 --> 00:26:15,359 I guess, is what I'm saying. And so you also want to 330 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:19,799 be very careful that you're not branding a kid as conduct at ten and really 331 00:26:19,839 --> 00:26:26,279 they're just doing the like what they can to get love and acceptance and praise 332 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:30,319 within their family system too, because one thing that the atoms don't have, 333 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:33,640 which I think you more, what I've more typically seen in families that have 334 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:41,240 more normalized antisocial or criminal behavior is scary consequences within the family structure for walking 335 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:45,000 outside the line. So a lot of families that do this more in Maine 336 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:52,119 in like real life, I guess, is there can be severe consequences internally 337 00:26:52,799 --> 00:26:59,839 for not walking the line, for not basically validating the adults behavior by modeling 338 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:04,039 yourself. And so there isn't that here, which is actually says more about 339 00:27:04,039 --> 00:27:07,079 how healthy that Adam's family are. That the kids aren't doing it because they're 340 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:14,200 scared of reproach, that they're scared of like being exiled or ostracized from the 341 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:18,440 family if they're not violent or criminal, or if they don't steal or act 342 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:23,480 out. Yeah, I mean, though we don't really see you know any 343 00:27:23,599 --> 00:27:26,640 member of this culture who is not like that. So it's really hard to 344 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:33,440 see how the family would respond to a child that wasn't that like that, 345 00:27:33,599 --> 00:27:41,720 Like, isn't as quote unquote criminal as Wednesday. Yeah, but like the 346 00:27:41,799 --> 00:27:47,920 parents don't make him feel bad about it. It's like he has his own 347 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:52,000 way of doing things and that's totally fine. So I definitely don't believe that 348 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:56,720 Gomezer Medicia would you know, be like, you're no son of mine because 349 00:27:56,759 --> 00:28:03,200 you won't you know, lot like whatever. Like I can see that it 350 00:28:03,319 --> 00:28:07,039 just does not fit with their presentation as parents. Yeah, no, it 351 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:11,319 definitely doesn't. It would be really interesting, something that just popped into my 352 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,599 head, be really interesting if they had a kid who didn't want to do 353 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:18,480 any of those things and really wasn't interested and really just wanted to have like 354 00:28:18,519 --> 00:28:26,920 a quote unquote normal life, that would be yeah, exactly exactly, So 355 00:28:27,039 --> 00:28:30,920 that would be interesting to see. But at the same time, you know, 356 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:34,440 and what you said about their family and how accepting they are and how 357 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:40,039 loving they are, I feel like even they would even be able to, 358 00:28:40,599 --> 00:28:42,720 you know, care for and love a child who was different no matter what, 359 00:28:44,119 --> 00:28:48,559 because they're all different. Yeah, I'm trying to remember because I know 360 00:28:48,599 --> 00:28:49,920 in the sequel, which I know we're trying hard not to talk about, 361 00:28:51,799 --> 00:28:56,440 is their baby does flip right. It's but their baby is like kind of 362 00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:02,839 I can't remember exactly, like poisoned or something to make it remember, the 363 00:29:02,839 --> 00:29:06,599 baby goes good and then they all freak out, right, But I think 364 00:29:06,599 --> 00:29:10,359 that's more a product of the situation that, like their baby didn't come out 365 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:14,759 the womb like quote unquote normal, something happens to it that flips it, 366 00:29:14,799 --> 00:29:18,359 and that they that they identify as the kid the baby's sick. But I 367 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,519 feel like even then, if I remember correctly, more tshes trying to like 368 00:29:21,599 --> 00:29:25,680 read more appropriate books to the baby, like so they are trying to make 369 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:30,839 it work, even though it's like killing them out of anxiety and like distress. 370 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,799 But that's but this that it would be different. I think if the 371 00:29:33,839 --> 00:29:38,160 baby came out more like quote unquote regular, So I just wanted to point 372 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:42,480 that out in case people are screaming into their like phones or whatever. Like 373 00:29:42,559 --> 00:29:45,200 Yeah, but in the second movie, their baby does go good and they 374 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,519 freak out. But I think that's I'd have to rewatch it again and kind 375 00:29:48,519 --> 00:29:52,279 of understand the context. Now, because it's outside of their norm doesn't mean 376 00:29:52,319 --> 00:29:56,559 they don't step the child that they couldn't get there exactly. So you know, 377 00:29:56,599 --> 00:30:00,400 freaking out is not a sign of rejection. Reading out as a lineup, 378 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:06,400 I'm not familiar with this. How do I respond? That's what it 379 00:30:06,559 --> 00:30:08,279 is, and that's what they did. They did, but they adopted, 380 00:30:08,799 --> 00:30:12,920 like you said, Martia would start reading more appropriate books. So they're like, 381 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,759 Okay, figured out, Okay, this child is different, and that's 382 00:30:17,839 --> 00:30:22,319 fine. I will still treat the child as I would treat any child, 383 00:30:22,559 --> 00:30:26,799 you know, with what they need. Yeah, absolutely could. I would 384 00:30:26,799 --> 00:30:30,920 also say to what is encouraging about that is they all have, like Martitia 385 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:37,839 Gomez, Wednesday Pugsy, all have very different personalities within the kookiness, right, 386 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:42,839 Like you said, Wednesdays flatter, more like I got mature and energy, 387 00:30:44,079 --> 00:30:45,680 you know, She's kind of like the quiet type, you know, 388 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:52,400 very that way that is playful. Pugsy is more like a goofball. Gomez 389 00:30:52,519 --> 00:30:57,839 is very his like arguably history like, he's very dramatic, he's very his 390 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:03,839 feelings are all over the place. And Mortish's more contained, right, so 391 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:07,799 more like Wednesday. But I would say, like so they're within the family, 392 00:31:07,839 --> 00:31:11,839 there's not this expectation that we're all acting like Wednesday or they're all acting 393 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,720 like Morticia, Like there isn't this expectation that you can't have feelings or you 394 00:31:15,759 --> 00:31:19,880 can't cry or you like, they're very they do allow each other within the 395 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:25,400 family to be themselves. And I was even arguing, like Gomez is so 396 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:29,920 authentic, Like they're all really authentic. They all pursue the things they really 397 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:33,920 like, Like he has his trains and they all know that about him, 398 00:31:33,039 --> 00:31:36,319 and they're like, oh, no, Dad's using the trains. He must 399 00:31:36,359 --> 00:31:41,839 be freaked out. Like they all accept each other's differences within the family structure 400 00:31:41,839 --> 00:31:45,880 in a very loving way. They know each other's coping mechanisms, whether they're 401 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,240 healthy or not healthy, which they do acknowledge with the train thing, right, 402 00:31:48,319 --> 00:31:51,759 Like, oof dad's doing that, that means he's stressed out. I 403 00:31:51,759 --> 00:31:55,519 hope he's okay, absolutely, And I mean that I think that goes, 404 00:31:55,960 --> 00:32:00,160 you know to what we were talking about with regards to the relationship pattern and 405 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:06,480 the dynamics, is that in a healthy relationship, whether it be family, 406 00:32:06,759 --> 00:32:10,200 friendship or otherwise, you understand these aspects of the other person and you work 407 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:15,880 with them. Okay, this is Gomez his way. Then they knew, 408 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:20,440 oh, the train is getting to this point, like they could tell just 409 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:22,599 by the sound. Oh he's at this bridge, he's at this day. 410 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:28,519 Like the fact that they know that means this is something that happens often enough 411 00:32:28,559 --> 00:32:30,839 for them to memorize it, which means that they're accepting of it. They're 412 00:32:30,839 --> 00:32:35,200 like, Okay, he needs some space to play with his trains. You 413 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:39,640 know when he's upset. Great, he's doing something that's relatively not harmful to 414 00:32:39,839 --> 00:32:44,279 the outside world. He's playing with trains. Yes, the trains blow up, 415 00:32:44,319 --> 00:32:47,200 fine, but it's contained in the house. You know what. There's 416 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:50,960 a lot of kids who play with trains and then crash them and blow them 417 00:32:51,039 --> 00:32:54,200 up. You know, they're not criminal either, So you know, it 418 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:59,000 shows how much that each of one of them recognizes Okay, well, this 419 00:32:59,079 --> 00:33:02,799 is how going things. This is how Wednesday deals with things. This is 420 00:33:02,839 --> 00:33:07,640 how public deals with things. You know, and even Mortician her mom, 421 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:10,359 her mom is you know, showing Okay, yes, this is this is 422 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:14,799 how I would do it, but maybe you would doing different. So yeah, 423 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:19,359 most generationals, you know, showing this kind of acceptance. MM hmm. 424 00:33:20,519 --> 00:33:23,680 Yeah, and you're right in that they all are encouraging each other. 425 00:33:23,799 --> 00:33:28,960 They're having dialogues all the time about how they're feeling and what do they need 426 00:33:29,119 --> 00:33:32,599 and and that kind of thing, and there's no like even them doing the 427 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:37,599 seance every year for twenty five years. I think it's very telling about how 428 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:43,359 much Morticia and the kids just want to do a ritual for Gomez that helps 429 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:47,920 him feel like he's remembering his brother, like they there's no judgment really within 430 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:53,759 the family ironically, like there really is an acceptance of yourself. And you 431 00:33:53,799 --> 00:34:00,200 see that in the way that they all engage. M Yeah, to be 432 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:02,759 to be rich enough, to be jobless, and you can just engage in 433 00:34:02,799 --> 00:34:06,680 your hobbies and your true authentic self and I'll have to conform. I mean 434 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:08,480 that's kind of what like the Adams is showing as well, of like this 435 00:34:08,559 --> 00:34:13,199 is what it looks like when you can afford to not conform. Yeah, 436 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:16,400 and you can kind of literally truly be yourself. Yeah, yeah, deal 437 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:22,280 with society. Yeah. And I think we'll see you when we get into 438 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:27,519 our next topic with the enmeshment part of it with Fester specifically is I think 439 00:34:27,559 --> 00:34:32,400 what is also telling about how loving the Adams family is is that they demonstrate 440 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:37,239 that to Fester so much that I think it does help him get out of 441 00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:43,920 the relationship peas in with his adoptive mother, which is like, oh, 442 00:34:44,039 --> 00:34:49,079 this is what actually family feels like, to be like loved and accepted and 443 00:34:49,119 --> 00:34:53,960 to not be manipulated or have like something hanging over your head that they're that 444 00:34:54,039 --> 00:35:00,440 the Adams family are so loving that they show Fester this outsider to them, 445 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:02,679 you know, kind of that there is another way to be, and it's 446 00:35:02,679 --> 00:35:07,159 a nice way to be, and you don't have to suffer the way you're 447 00:35:07,159 --> 00:35:12,639 suffering in the dynamic you're currently in. But yeah, like I think you're 448 00:35:12,679 --> 00:35:15,239 right on two, which is when they lose their money and they stay in 449 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:22,039 that hotel, Gomes suffers because he's more directly hit by the situation, right, 450 00:35:22,039 --> 00:35:25,159 But you're right, like Mortitia is trying to take care of him, 451 00:35:25,199 --> 00:35:30,159 She's trying to help the family. They're not doing that entitled rich person affluenza 452 00:35:30,199 --> 00:35:36,519 thing where they're like, I'm just going to scream and shout until somebody helps 453 00:35:36,559 --> 00:35:40,280 me. This is unfair, Like they're not. They're trying to adapt and 454 00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:44,920 they just don't have the life skills to do it, to do it enough 455 00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:50,880 to blend in given time. They probably yeah, they in the movie. 456 00:35:51,079 --> 00:35:53,760 I don't know how much time pasts, probably a day or two. Yeah, 457 00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:59,400 But you know it is very telling, you know, when you're saying, 458 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,280 oh, how some people when this catastilarhe hits, how they will just 459 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:06,000 scream like, well, I want something to help me? But what does 460 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:09,280 it mean help? What does that mean to you? So some people help 461 00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:15,000 means you give me things, you do the atoms, they help themselves. 462 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:20,199 So I have this need. We need money. I'm going to get a 463 00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:25,000 job. And it's not just morticially getting a job Wednesday and are getting jobs, 464 00:36:25,599 --> 00:36:36,840 you know, lemonade, a tonic of some sort or a death tonic. 465 00:36:37,599 --> 00:36:42,960 People need that. Sometimes there is there's a market for it, just 466 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:49,280 maybe not in their community. But again, the shows that they are responsible, 467 00:36:50,079 --> 00:36:53,039 that they recognize. Okay, here's a situation, here's a problem. 468 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:59,000 How do I solve a problem given the circumstances that I'm in and so many 469 00:36:59,039 --> 00:37:04,840 people when they are caught an alerts like that where like everything is taken away, 470 00:37:05,559 --> 00:37:07,039 you know, it is very difficult to adapt to that. I mean 471 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:13,320 absolutely and That's what leads to a lot of criminal behavior, is when you 472 00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:16,880 lose everything that you've known, that all the structure in your life is gone. 473 00:37:17,559 --> 00:37:21,079 You know, you react. You know it's like, well, I 474 00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:23,880 need this and so I'm going to take it. Whereas here they said, 475 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:29,239 okay, I need money for food. They didn't rob a bank, they 476 00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:35,039 didn't do anything like that. She went and read books to kiddergarteners, and 477 00:37:35,079 --> 00:37:40,079 they sold beverages. We're just going to call them beverages. But like they 478 00:37:40,119 --> 00:37:46,199 did the societally appropriate thing. So there's no deen there, there's nothing depiant 479 00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:51,800 about it. M Yeah. That is what's kind of ironic is when they're 480 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:55,760 in the actual opportunity where we might forgive or understand more criminal behaviors, they 481 00:37:55,800 --> 00:38:00,800 don't rely on those because that's not what they need to feel like. They're 482 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:06,519 not dependent on those behaviors. It's more like a product of their like I 483 00:38:06,559 --> 00:38:13,320 said, their cultural norms, their familial personalities. It's not how they they 484 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:15,079 don't need it in order to keep going in the world, Like in a 485 00:38:15,079 --> 00:38:19,119 way where it's like I have to be scamming, or I have to be 486 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:23,079 conning, or I have to be like taking or I have to be Like 487 00:38:23,119 --> 00:38:28,280 a lot of stuff with conduct and antisocial is trying to in different ways like 488 00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:32,480 assert your dominance over other people, and they're not. They're never trying to 489 00:38:32,519 --> 00:38:37,320 do that. I would argue that when people enter their world, like Tully's 490 00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:42,360 wife, they actually are very infester too. Like they're very open, they're 491 00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:47,960 very welcoming, you know, they are wanting to be inclusive as much as 492 00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:53,800 they are like societal quote unquote outcasts if you will. Yeah, And just 493 00:38:54,079 --> 00:39:00,800 another thing with regards to that and the criminal behaviors. If you're raised in 494 00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:06,119 a culture that does embrace the criminal behaviors, some people when they lose that, 495 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:09,079 which still engage with those criminal views because that's what's known to them, 496 00:39:09,119 --> 00:39:13,920 that's their world view. I had a lot of clients that growing up were 497 00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:16,519 involved with games. You know, that's what they knew in the family. 498 00:39:16,639 --> 00:39:22,280 It was, you know, normal to steal and do all those things. 499 00:39:22,519 --> 00:39:24,679 But then okay, you're now facing the situation where you can't do that. 500 00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:29,199 How do you do you just keep doing it because that's all you know, 501 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:31,800 or do you try to find Okay, well I need to do the adaptive 502 00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:37,519 thing. And that's what they did. They you know, welcome people into 503 00:39:37,559 --> 00:39:40,880 their home when they didn't have to. They live alone, mentioned away from 504 00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:45,079 everybody else. They don't have to accept anybody into their home. They choose 505 00:39:45,159 --> 00:39:50,440 to. Yeah, I would say, and this is probably a product of 506 00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:54,239 the story like this is the clever screenwriting, is that they're surrounded by criminals. 507 00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:58,920 As we said earlier, totally, I think is more of what we're 508 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:00,920 describing, which is someone who is in a pinch. We don't really know 509 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:07,480 why he's in such a pinch financially, and so he was always assumed I 510 00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:10,679 always assumed gambling. I mean, probably something along the side, I don't 511 00:40:10,679 --> 00:40:15,000 know, I don't know why, or maybe just living beyond their means. 512 00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:21,320 And now he's in a pickle. And so what's ironic about Tully is that 513 00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:25,519 he engages in more of that secretive, assuming the worst, getting what I 514 00:40:25,559 --> 00:40:30,800 can behavior, Whereas I beg you if you just straight up asked Gomez for 515 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:32,880 a loan, or even just straight up as for a gift, like hey, 516 00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:37,760 can you give me fifty grand I'm really struggling. Go must probably be 517 00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:40,119 like, oh sure, I you want this goblet. I'm that sitting on 518 00:40:40,159 --> 00:40:45,000 my desk. That's worth six hundred thousand dollars, you know what I mean, 519 00:40:45,119 --> 00:40:50,119 like I feel, and I think that says so much about the discrepancy 520 00:40:50,159 --> 00:40:57,840 between these personalities. Is that totally is because he's engaging more than that criminalized 521 00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:02,159 behavior is assuming the worst, you know, instead of the best, which 522 00:41:02,199 --> 00:41:06,639 is I think what the atoms is really believe in, which is that inclusivity 523 00:41:06,679 --> 00:41:10,840 factor and that generosity and all those things that when you're in a family that's 524 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:17,280 more criminal for whatever reason, because it's usually systemic why people get that way. 525 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:21,639 So I want to be careful about how we're talking about families that engage 526 00:41:21,639 --> 00:41:23,840 in this stuff. Is that there's a lot more secret keeping. There's a 527 00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:28,599 lot of more exclusivity. When I work with families that fall into my office 528 00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:31,599 or in the past because they've had to can it takes a long time to 529 00:41:31,639 --> 00:41:37,480 get the kid to talk or the family to talk because there's so much secrecy 530 00:41:37,119 --> 00:41:40,480 in the ways that they conduct their everyday life. So I think the fact 531 00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:46,039 that they're also so open in generosity and spirit says a lot about the fact 532 00:41:46,039 --> 00:41:52,039 that they're not you know, engaged, They're not a family psychopaths, They're 533 00:41:52,079 --> 00:41:54,960 not I mean, the like we talked about before recording that people committing the 534 00:41:54,960 --> 00:42:01,000 crimes are the quote unquote normies. Yeah. Yeah, and we see his 535 00:42:01,159 --> 00:42:07,280 reasoning for committing the crime was financial. He didn't have money, his other 536 00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:10,519 clients were not paying or whatever. You know, he and he owed money 537 00:42:10,519 --> 00:42:16,039 to miss Craven, so you know, the loan shark. So that is 538 00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:20,719 you know, criminal behavior and thinking right there, Okay, I need money. 539 00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:24,679 I'm going to take advantage of my clients, you know, because that's 540 00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:29,480 what I need to survive. Criminal behavior is more often than not, are 541 00:42:29,559 --> 00:42:34,320 an attempt to meet a need in a maladaptive way. And that's what's here. 542 00:42:35,079 --> 00:42:39,639 I don't know what Craven's motivations for crime are, but it seems like 543 00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:44,480 she just wants to have the money so she can live away from everybody else 544 00:42:44,519 --> 00:42:46,960 and not deal with other people, you know, she can just be her 545 00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:52,800 and her quote unquote son. You know, ironically, she wants what the 546 00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:58,199 Atoms have, which is money in isolation. M hm yah. Is there 547 00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:00,519 anything else we want to say about the Adams as a whole before we slide 548 00:43:00,519 --> 00:43:06,800 into our next topic? Well no, okay, so we'll take a break 549 00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:09,559 there and be right back. All right, So we're getting there in terms 550 00:43:09,599 --> 00:43:15,039 of the next group of characters or pair of characters in this movie, which 551 00:43:15,079 --> 00:43:19,960 is I'm gonna call him Gordon, but Fester and his mother mother Craven, 552 00:43:20,159 --> 00:43:24,079 if you will, ironic name, and how they are actually a more of 553 00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:29,199 these things we've been talking about, which is like more criminalized behavior. I 554 00:43:29,199 --> 00:43:32,039 would say he's actually someone where I would say the way he shows up for 555 00:43:32,119 --> 00:43:36,440 the majority of the movie is a product of what we've been talking about so 556 00:43:36,599 --> 00:43:40,880 far, which is that I have to engage in criminal behaviors to keep my 557 00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:47,679 place in my family system, to get security within that relationship with my mother 558 00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:52,760 as far as he knows. And we're actually seeing someone with her that is 559 00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:57,960 displaying more of the tendencies we've been seeing, which is she sees a mark 560 00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:01,880 and her first thought is like to dominate and to deceive and to see what 561 00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:07,280 she can get away with, and she like being coercive. All the stuff 562 00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:10,559 that we've been talking about that you could attribute to the atoms we actually see 563 00:44:10,599 --> 00:44:15,679 with this character and her relationship with Gordon. So I'm gonna throw it to 564 00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:16,880 you, Hannah, if you want to kind of explain, like we say 565 00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:21,159 in Mesh within an abusive relationship, like, what can that look like? 566 00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:27,760 So enmeshment, the best way to describe in meshment is essentially that it's two 567 00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:34,480 people who are so intertwined with each other in terms of personality, in terms 568 00:44:34,559 --> 00:44:39,039 of how we act around other people, that they actually are like one person, 569 00:44:40,119 --> 00:44:47,679 which is really unhelpful because really what it's doing is is it is allowing 570 00:44:50,079 --> 00:44:55,079 one person to be dominant and kind of overtake the other person with their behaviors 571 00:44:55,119 --> 00:45:00,159 and their personality. And so it's really hard because has as we know, 572 00:45:00,559 --> 00:45:07,360 something that we all work towards with our clients is towards individuation, is towards 573 00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:13,360 you being your own person with your own thoughts and beliefs and your own behaviors 574 00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:16,119 that you engage in that are working towards the values that you have about your 575 00:45:16,159 --> 00:45:24,000 life. So but simply enmeshment really is is when two people become have the 576 00:45:24,119 --> 00:45:30,679 same values and same goals as each other in a way that is unhealthy, 577 00:45:30,199 --> 00:45:36,280 in a way where one person is actually trapped with the other person and feels 578 00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:40,280 like they can't get away from them or can't individuate in any kind of way, 579 00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:46,480 because that will undo the system that they're in Yeah, and so in 580 00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:51,000 this Dame specifically is where in meashment can occur. So in meshment can occur 581 00:45:51,079 --> 00:45:52,760 a lot of different ways. We've talked about this with single parents in the 582 00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:57,599 past, like if there's a single parent and an only child, there can 583 00:45:57,639 --> 00:46:00,679 be some organic enmeshment that occurs just because the two of you in a lot 584 00:46:00,679 --> 00:46:04,880 of ways. And sometimes what I work with people as adults with enmeshment, 585 00:46:05,519 --> 00:46:08,360 I have to be very careful that I'm not vilifying your parent or you that 586 00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:12,559 like, you know, this is just a product of some of the environment 587 00:46:12,639 --> 00:46:16,159 and it's getting in the way unfortunately now of the things you're wanting for yourself, 588 00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:20,639 either because you feel like you can't make your own choices, or you 589 00:46:20,639 --> 00:46:24,320 don't feel empowered, or that like your regulation is dependent upon this other person. 590 00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:29,039 You never want anyone anyone I work with at least this is part of 591 00:46:29,039 --> 00:46:35,320 the individuation to feel like they can only regulate if someone else is regulated right 592 00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:38,480 emotionally. And so as you see with an abusive relationships like we see in 593 00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:44,719 this movie, is Craven is taking advantage of that enmeshment, which is that 594 00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:49,199 it seems like she has well one she met Fester in a very vulnerable state. 595 00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:51,880 We're not sure how old he was because they don't bring that up other 596 00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:54,639 than it was twenty five years ago. I can't imagine he's not an adult 597 00:46:55,119 --> 00:46:58,920 when that happened, Like he's got to be in his forties. I feel 598 00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:02,000 like the story would work better if maybe he was like thirteen or fifteen when 599 00:47:02,119 --> 00:47:07,679 they found him in the tunanette, as she says. And so she has 600 00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:12,239 someone who is quote unquote has amnesia, that is very vulnerable, and so 601 00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:15,480 she's able to one like take advantage of him in that dynamic, right, 602 00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:21,840 she makes him totally dependent upon her, and then she uses him as a 603 00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:28,000 pawn with his with all her criminal behaviors. Right, and she does the 604 00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:30,360 thing like I said, we've been talking about, Like there's a very clear 605 00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:36,159 scene later in the movie when he's starting to untangle from her because by becoming 606 00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:39,400 part of the Adams family, ironically, he starts to, like I said, 607 00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:45,119 feel the love and affection that that's truly unconditional. And he starts and 608 00:47:45,119 --> 00:47:47,760 this is what happens when I work with people, or when I when we 609 00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:52,840 see people in mesh relationships, is that if they start encountering more healthy, 610 00:47:52,639 --> 00:47:58,639 unconditional relationships, like positive unconditional regard, even if it's with their therapists. 611 00:47:58,679 --> 00:48:04,320 Sometimes they start to realize, like, oh, my relationship with my mother 612 00:48:04,679 --> 00:48:08,480 or my partner or my best friend or whoever doesn't feel good. Actually, 613 00:48:09,159 --> 00:48:13,079 And now I have something to base that on, because what she also seems 614 00:48:13,079 --> 00:48:17,440 to have done with Fester Gordon is isolate him, right, And that's more 615 00:48:17,559 --> 00:48:23,000 of an abusive isolation, which is that like he doesn't have any socials support 616 00:48:23,079 --> 00:48:25,960 system outside of her. We find out in like the second movie. I 617 00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:31,480 think he's a virgin, you know, so he hasn't had romantic relationships, 618 00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:37,280 He hasn't had like friendly relationships that we can see other than her. So 619 00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:42,760 yeah, and I think and I think that a part of that, right 620 00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:46,360 when you're with somebody who's abusive, is that they want you to be isolated, 621 00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:51,880 They want you to only depend on them. They want they take advantage 622 00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:55,639 of those of those parts, and it's and it makes it really hard for 623 00:48:55,719 --> 00:49:05,000 someone to leave, makes it really hard to extrapulate themselves on their own because 624 00:49:05,039 --> 00:49:10,639 they're so dependent on this other person. Yeah, yeah, And so then 625 00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:14,960 how that works in her favor is a situation like later in the movie when 626 00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:19,000 he, like I said, he's starting to individuate from her because he's getting 627 00:49:19,039 --> 00:49:22,800 more acclimated to the atoms, and he doesn't show up for her, I 628 00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:27,000 think because he goes to the play right, and then when he shows up 629 00:49:27,079 --> 00:49:30,440 in her and she's in his bedroom right at the Adams family house, and 630 00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:34,519 she's like, I don't know exactly what she says, but she throws the 631 00:49:34,519 --> 00:49:37,199 typical like I guess I'm a horrible mother. I guess you don't love me. 632 00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:42,559 I guess I'll just go home and die. Like she does the very 633 00:49:42,559 --> 00:49:50,239 histrionic, over the top punitive behavior like if you individuate from me, I'm 634 00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:53,119 gonna kill myself or I'm going to you know, it's because you don't love 635 00:49:53,159 --> 00:49:58,800 me. You know. She holds those consequences, those emotional consequences and literal 636 00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:04,360 consequences right of like I'm going to rip myself from you because you have dared 637 00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:08,880 to step outside the line of what I'm wanting. And so she's threatening his 638 00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:15,199 social system, his support system, his financial system. And that's when I 639 00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:17,920 say, like, this is an abusive relation, because there's that clear power 640 00:50:19,039 --> 00:50:22,639 dynamic where she is has isolated him, like you said, and then she 641 00:50:22,679 --> 00:50:28,000 can weaponize that later because he has nobody else. Because also, something that 642 00:50:28,039 --> 00:50:31,199 I think is very interesting Infestor's presentation in this movie, and when we do 643 00:50:31,239 --> 00:50:34,519 the sequel, we can get into that more now that he's out of this 644 00:50:34,639 --> 00:50:37,199 dynamic, but we can only think of it in terms of the dynamic he's 645 00:50:37,199 --> 00:50:40,840 in with Mother, is that he's so young. He has very much like 646 00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:46,079 arrested development, Like he's very infantilized in this movie, and he seems that 647 00:50:46,079 --> 00:50:51,320 way too, Like with the Atoms, it's like he's almost he feels like 648 00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:52,599 a teenager in a lot of ways, or like a kid in a lot 649 00:50:52,639 --> 00:51:00,280 of ways. And that happens when you've been isolated and when someone is taking 650 00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:05,000 advantage of continued infantilization, you know, Like there she keeps them in that 651 00:51:05,159 --> 00:51:08,519 Mommy Sun dynamic and also like not to get into into it, and if 652 00:51:08,559 --> 00:51:12,639 you want to hear more about this kind of shit, you can listen to 653 00:51:12,679 --> 00:51:16,000 our Psycho episode from like many years ago. Is that there is also that 654 00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:22,559 kind of pseudo sexual energy that she's also taken advantage of, like he like 655 00:51:22,639 --> 00:51:29,119 holding his head against her bosom to comfort them, right, well, it's 656 00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:36,760 very much like because she's playing on the role of mother as guide and comforter 657 00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:40,559 and everything, and so she's reinforcing that by pressing his head against her bosom, 658 00:51:42,039 --> 00:51:44,800 you know, to be like, see, look, mother can do 659 00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:46,639 this, can make you feel this way, and so you need to do 660 00:51:46,679 --> 00:51:52,039 what mother wants. Others you lose this thing that is very primal humans. 661 00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:59,239 Yeah, you have that primal urge to have that comfort from our caregivers or 662 00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:01,480 from other people in our society. You know, we are sorry, I 663 00:52:01,599 --> 00:52:09,320 just like choked on nothing, just whatever. We are social creatures and the 664 00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:15,719 desire for a hug. Yes, that it is very powerful. And for 665 00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:22,119 someone investors position who doesn't remember having it before, that's a point too. 666 00:52:22,519 --> 00:52:28,519 He had that amusing so he didn't remember. I I can't say for sure 667 00:52:28,559 --> 00:52:31,320 that his mother did that, but I would imagine she did. I mean, 668 00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:37,079 we see how how warm and open Gomez and Mortitia are. YEA even's 669 00:52:37,119 --> 00:52:42,199 mother is very open and warm, so I can't imagine that Gomez Infestor's mother 670 00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:46,480 would be anydifferent. Even if she did encourage stars at age five, you 671 00:52:46,519 --> 00:52:51,639 know, she was still very warm and company. But if you don't remember 672 00:52:51,679 --> 00:52:53,719 that and so you didn't have it. He never had it so far as 673 00:52:53,719 --> 00:53:00,159 he knows. Now he has it. But again it's conditional. So it's 674 00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:05,679 she's taking advantage of those primal needs. And that's what that's what abusive individuals 675 00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:12,199 do in abusive relationships. They take advantage of your needs when it's physical abuse, 676 00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:16,039 mental abuse, whatever, it's you need something and I have it, 677 00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:21,280 and so if you want this, then you have to give me what I 678 00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:27,519 want. Yeah. They feed on scarcity, like fear around, like they've 679 00:53:27,559 --> 00:53:30,519 created a scarcity with getting your needs met and they take advantage of that. 680 00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:38,039 And it's not because some in meastment relationships are very they don't have that power 681 00:53:38,119 --> 00:53:43,760 dynamic like they can just be very like we unfortunately use each other to corregulate. 682 00:53:44,079 --> 00:53:46,079 We don't know how to regulate without each other. And this one is 683 00:53:46,079 --> 00:53:50,800 more of that, like, yeah, that abusive dynamic where she is taking 684 00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:54,400 it. She could probably regulate without him, you know, and she probably 685 00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:59,840 does. Yeah, and so but she's taking oh, go ahead. Her 686 00:54:00,119 --> 00:54:04,400 Her behavior to me very much seems like someone who's putting on an act. 687 00:54:04,639 --> 00:54:07,960 Yeah, when she's with Gordon, and very much like she is, she's 688 00:54:08,039 --> 00:54:13,119 able to do whatever she needs to get her needs met, but she puts 689 00:54:13,199 --> 00:54:16,639 on this role and because she's abusive, right, she's abusive, so she 690 00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:21,480 puts on this role that she has to in order to continue the abuse of 691 00:54:21,559 --> 00:54:25,599 Gordon. Yeah, so she might be like through a temper tantrum if you 692 00:54:25,639 --> 00:54:32,239 will, or be super upset or pissed that he is not acquiescing to her, 693 00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:38,239 But she's not like I'm gonna spin out and I'm gonna like I can't 694 00:54:38,280 --> 00:54:44,760 feel better until Gordon has done this, that and the other. Like she 695 00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:46,880 acts as as such, right, and maybe she'd even kind of believe that, 696 00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:50,760 like it's Gordon's fault that I feel this way, YadA YadA. But 697 00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:54,800 when I see more like codependent enmeshment, it's more of like we just are 698 00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:59,400 too dependent on each other to feel better and we don't know how to feel 699 00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:04,920 better without the other one acquiescing in some way. And that is different here, 700 00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:09,519 like that dynamic is different. She is conditioning enmeshment with him, And 701 00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:14,320 to go with what you were saying about how she's convincing herself that it is 702 00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:16,280 his fault. That kind of listen to somebody we talk about with it, 703 00:55:16,360 --> 00:55:22,320 or to displacement. Oh yeah, you know, she's you know, if 704 00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:29,360 I'm unhappy, she doesn't want to basically acknowledge and take responsibility for her unhappiness 705 00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:34,039 is too much for her, so it's easier to blame it on him, 706 00:55:34,079 --> 00:55:38,599 who is defenseless and vulnerable. And you know, to going back to that 707 00:55:38,679 --> 00:55:44,119 checklist, she meets more of the markers of psychopathy than the Adams family does. 708 00:55:44,719 --> 00:55:50,119 Yeah, yeah, because where she might quote unquote present is in mesh 709 00:55:50,159 --> 00:55:53,039 But I would disagree and say it's more of that like psychopathy or antisocial Is 710 00:55:53,039 --> 00:56:00,360 that not taking ownership for her behaviors and for the consequences. That's different than 711 00:56:00,440 --> 00:56:04,920 in Meshment, you know, where it's more like you've made me feel this 712 00:56:05,039 --> 00:56:08,280 type of way so I can't control myself. That's more like what in Meshment 713 00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:14,800 can look like versus I have now consequences that I don't agree with and fuck 714 00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:19,719 you and you did this to me to continue that dynamic where the other person 715 00:56:19,840 --> 00:56:28,360 feels disempowered, feels attached, And that's very different than more like codependent in 716 00:56:28,440 --> 00:56:31,880 Meshment, you know, but they are they are textbook like that that scene 717 00:56:31,880 --> 00:56:39,079 where she does hold him responsible after the play because she can tell that he 718 00:56:39,239 --> 00:56:45,840 is pulling away from her. That to me is like typical almost like typical 719 00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:50,559 of parental abuse. But I also you can see it in romantic relationships too, 720 00:56:50,599 --> 00:56:53,480 where it's like, yeah, how dare you go make friends? How 721 00:56:53,559 --> 00:56:57,800 dare you leave me here all alone while you're not having fun and probably talking 722 00:56:57,800 --> 00:57:01,800 to other guys? And is that what I hear some people now call narcissistic 723 00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:06,280 abuse? But I'll have to look into that phrase before I speak anything to 724 00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:10,440 that from a more factual versus fiction perspective. Yeah, definitely. I mean 725 00:57:10,480 --> 00:57:15,159 it's just, let's just say stereotypical abuse, whether it's correct its abuse, 726 00:57:15,599 --> 00:57:22,280 Yeah, like she meets into a team. Yeah. And also I will 727 00:57:22,280 --> 00:57:29,440 say there's a degree of that that is somewhat normalized within culture. And what 728 00:57:29,480 --> 00:57:31,960 I mean by that is, I think a lot of people that I've worked 729 00:57:31,960 --> 00:57:37,239 with at least but although in the world, have experienced parents who go straight 730 00:57:37,280 --> 00:57:42,119 to the I guess I'm a bad mom. I guess you know, fuck 731 00:57:42,199 --> 00:57:45,239 me. I guess like when you do try to hold them accountable and probably 732 00:57:45,239 --> 00:57:52,679 not even aware because of their own stuff that they are dependent upon and enmeshed 733 00:57:52,719 --> 00:57:57,159 power dynamic yeah, yeah, or the image of it. Even sometimes it's 734 00:57:57,199 --> 00:58:00,280 not even that they're trying to take it, but they get so used to 735 00:58:00,320 --> 00:58:05,920 the image of I'm a good mother, I'm doing all these things, when 736 00:58:06,199 --> 00:58:10,119 the child is like, okay, but those things are like not what I 737 00:58:10,199 --> 00:58:14,119 need. Or you're doing these other things. Yes, you do those nice 738 00:58:14,119 --> 00:58:19,360 things, and you're also doing something that's hurtfle. They can't take that, 739 00:58:19,519 --> 00:58:22,239 and so it's you know, it's like, oh, well, then I 740 00:58:22,280 --> 00:58:29,199 guess I just failed altogether. It's an all or nothing thinking. Yeah. 741 00:58:29,239 --> 00:58:34,840 So unfortunately, it is very common, and you know, I think very 742 00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:40,159 much so in more like Western society because of the like heavy the emphasis on 743 00:58:40,280 --> 00:58:47,559 family dynamics is different in Western society than in other cultures, and so there 744 00:58:47,639 --> 00:58:52,119 is a lot of this, you know, at least in America. You 745 00:58:52,119 --> 00:58:54,119 know, got to you know, obey your mom and dad, you know, 746 00:58:54,280 --> 00:58:59,320 those kinds of mentality, you know, mother knows best kind of things, 747 00:58:59,480 --> 00:59:01,840 like us are allowed to do whatever they want because you have to be 748 00:59:01,880 --> 00:59:07,039 grateful forever that they they had sex at least once and you came out of 749 00:59:07,079 --> 00:59:09,880 them that and then that they you know, are paying for your you know, 750 00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:16,559 food and everything. But that it's basically that that them raising you as 751 00:59:16,599 --> 00:59:21,119 a child, wasn't that that it wasn't their choice. That oh they're doing 752 00:59:21,159 --> 00:59:23,320 it out of obligation to you, and so you need to be grateful to 753 00:59:23,360 --> 00:59:27,400 them. Yeah, and that's when they start to pull up and it's like, 754 00:59:27,519 --> 00:59:30,119 fine, I'm not going to pay for your stuff. And you know, 755 00:59:30,360 --> 00:59:36,320 if it's someone like Faster who has nothing else, yeah, well that's 756 00:59:36,440 --> 00:59:42,119 incredibly terrifying, which goes to that social evolutionary you know, component of it 757 00:59:42,159 --> 00:59:49,079 is humans you know that you know can't handle rejection because in our evolutionary passed, 758 00:59:49,079 --> 00:59:52,840 if we were rejected from our tribe, we would be without sustenance. 759 00:59:52,880 --> 00:59:57,639 We would be without in the wilderness with you know, all the you know, 760 00:59:57,719 --> 01:00:00,800 lions and tigers and bears online. You know here we see it here. 761 01:00:00,880 --> 01:00:05,800 Though. Yes, he can easily get his knees met elsewhere, and 762 01:00:06,800 --> 01:00:12,320 you know in people in real life or in these positions can find support elsewhere, 763 01:00:12,440 --> 01:00:15,559 but it doesn't feel that way because our brains are like seeing it in 764 01:00:15,599 --> 01:00:20,760 the same way. Oh my god, without this support, I'm gonna die. 765 01:00:21,320 --> 01:00:24,920 Yeah, and you know, to channel to channel the other bend. 766 01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:30,039 I don't remember which which episode were you guys talking about. But if you're 767 01:00:30,039 --> 01:00:32,960 talking about the tiger, you know, is a tiger actually going to eat 768 01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:38,480 you? If yes, then GTFO, that's actually important to deal with. 769 01:00:38,880 --> 01:00:44,480 But if not, then we need to examine our responses to it. And 770 01:00:44,559 --> 01:00:49,119 this is the difference between fear and anxiety. Fear is a response to actual 771 01:00:49,199 --> 01:00:53,440 threat. The tiger is actually there is actually eating. Anxiety is a response 772 01:00:53,480 --> 01:00:59,239 to a perceived threat. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a great point. 773 01:00:59,360 --> 01:01:02,440 And and that's what she is feeding off of. And then, like 774 01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:05,679 I said, a lot of times, how people will get out of these 775 01:01:05,760 --> 01:01:09,960 dynamics is they're introduced to a different dynamic that challenges the one they're currently and 776 01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:14,159 like, oh it could be different than this oh shit, Like I could 777 01:01:14,159 --> 01:01:17,320 be in a family that just loves me and there's no conditions and there's no 778 01:01:17,480 --> 01:01:22,719 threats and there's no like And I even came into a family where they could 779 01:01:22,760 --> 01:01:25,800 have really shit on me because of the day, like they could have been 780 01:01:25,800 --> 01:01:29,760 like Fester, how dare you? Like where have you been? And he's 781 01:01:29,880 --> 01:01:35,320 just open with loving arms And unfortunately, going back to norms, like within 782 01:01:35,320 --> 01:01:37,480 a family system, is that until you kind of venture out, you might 783 01:01:37,519 --> 01:01:45,719 not realize how I abnormal your dynamic is with whoever you're enmeshed with until like 784 01:01:45,719 --> 01:01:47,159 a lot of times when I go to when people see me in therapy, 785 01:01:47,480 --> 01:01:52,159 I might be the first one who's like, you know, your relationship with 786 01:01:52,239 --> 01:01:55,199 your dad is a bit if you don't mind me saying is a bit en 787 01:01:55,239 --> 01:02:00,639 meshed, and can I explain why? And because this is the most I 788 01:02:00,679 --> 01:02:06,719 think textbook version of that where the where the highs are high and the lows 789 01:02:06,719 --> 01:02:09,760 are very low. But a lot of times in like more mainstream society, 790 01:02:09,760 --> 01:02:14,000 when I work with this, it's more like, is your parent depending on 791 01:02:14,039 --> 01:02:15,440 you a little bit too much emotionally? Do you have to be available all 792 01:02:15,480 --> 01:02:20,039 the time at a moment's notice if you say no to them? Is there 793 01:02:20,039 --> 01:02:23,159 really big consequences? Are you to have an anxiety about saying no? So 794 01:02:23,199 --> 01:02:29,199 that's how it can look more in the subtler ways this dynamic, And then 795 01:02:29,239 --> 01:02:30,960 it becomes a thing where do we need to broad in our social circle? 796 01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:36,280 And if are we freaked about that? Because if we brought in our social 797 01:02:36,360 --> 01:02:40,280 circles that can be threatening to are in messed relationship. And then if that 798 01:02:40,400 --> 01:02:45,280 happens It's really hard for clients to argue with me about if they're su or 799 01:02:45,320 --> 01:02:47,239 not, because I'm like, why is it feels like such a big deal 800 01:02:49,199 --> 01:02:52,159 to like go to a friend's house on a Sunday instead of your mom's. 801 01:02:53,159 --> 01:02:57,280 Why are you're so worried about that? Why are you so anxious about that? 802 01:02:57,880 --> 01:03:01,559 So that's the part of their dynamic that is that is real, that 803 01:03:01,679 --> 01:03:06,880 is well, I guess, factual, and feels realistic to me. The 804 01:03:06,960 --> 01:03:14,480 part of their story that is not so realistic is doctor pinderschlash So Craven does 805 01:03:14,679 --> 01:03:19,800 go undercover, if you will, she scams as a psychologist, a German 806 01:03:19,880 --> 01:03:22,119 psychologist. I think I think she's trying to do like a Freudian accent. 807 01:03:22,519 --> 01:03:30,079 Oh yeah, I was watching this with Isaac, my brother, and you 808 01:03:30,119 --> 01:03:32,519 know, he does a good Freudian accent. He was just like, oh, 809 01:03:32,800 --> 01:03:37,280 I do love her little thing like they caught and like her whole like 810 01:03:37,840 --> 01:03:44,719 annunciation. It's a Bonker's accent on purpose, like you can't tell what she's 811 01:03:44,760 --> 01:03:52,440 doing. But she does talk about the theory of displacement, and so the 812 01:03:52,440 --> 01:03:55,400 theory of displacement just to do some fact versus ficion. It is a Freudian 813 01:03:55,519 --> 01:04:00,480 concept, which is I'm sure where she snagged from. Also with the demeanor 814 01:04:00,519 --> 01:04:03,239 in the vibe she's putting out, there's very Freudian and it's one of his 815 01:04:03,320 --> 01:04:08,360 many defense mechanisms that people like to still talk about a bunch, which is, 816 01:04:08,440 --> 01:04:13,519 you know, trying to think of other ones projection. Let me think 817 01:04:13,559 --> 01:04:17,119 there's like several Right, I'm not a big Freudian person, so I don't 818 01:04:17,159 --> 01:04:19,760 keep up to date on Freudian and stuff. So a lot of the defense 819 01:04:19,840 --> 01:04:30,079 mechanisms are still around, just like projection, rationalization, regression, you know, 820 01:04:30,119 --> 01:04:33,920 aggression, all those kind of things. I mean, they exist regardless, 821 01:04:34,159 --> 01:04:38,960 you know. Yeah, And so her the way that she describes this 822 01:04:39,079 --> 01:04:45,280 placement is like I'm feeling you're feeling guilty about Fester. You don't want to 823 01:04:45,280 --> 01:04:50,159 be guilty, feel guilty about Fester, so you're being hateful to him, 824 01:04:50,840 --> 01:04:56,280 and you're trying to push him away and create him as like an impostor as 825 01:04:56,280 --> 01:05:01,519 he says. And so that's how she disc theory of displacement. So, 826 01:05:01,880 --> 01:05:04,960 like all good scammers, she gets part of it right and part of it 827 01:05:05,000 --> 01:05:11,639 wrong. Yeah, in that the actual theory of displacement is more the example 828 01:05:11,760 --> 01:05:15,519 that we all thought of actually, which when we were talking about before recording, 829 01:05:15,639 --> 01:05:18,599 is you have a shitty boss to treat you like shit. It's not 830 01:05:18,840 --> 01:05:24,880 safe to be aggressive towards your boss to or to call your boss out because 831 01:05:24,880 --> 01:05:28,039 you could lose your job and they're for your money or social standing or whatever. 832 01:05:28,199 --> 01:05:30,760 So you go home and you scream at your wife. Like that's more 833 01:05:30,760 --> 01:05:33,679 classic displacement, Like I don't feel like I can put my feelings where they 834 01:05:33,719 --> 01:05:39,840 actually appropriately go because for whatever reason, I feel like I can't do that. 835 01:05:40,199 --> 01:05:42,960 So I'm gonna put those feelings somewhere, because, believe it or not, 836 01:05:43,000 --> 01:05:47,440 people, your feelings go somewhere. They don't just disappear because you don't 837 01:05:47,559 --> 01:05:50,199 want to deal with them. They will, you will, They will just 838 01:05:50,280 --> 01:05:55,880 come out in a different way, right yep. And so what they're more 839 01:05:55,920 --> 01:05:59,800 talking about, I don't know how I would describe what she's more talking about 840 01:06:00,519 --> 01:06:04,039 nonsense. I mean, it's not nonsense what she's saying in the sense that 841 01:06:04,159 --> 01:06:10,960 like Fester is having more like under the surface feelings that he's not comfortable with, 842 01:06:11,039 --> 01:06:15,960 and so that's coming out his irritability and like pushing Fester away because he 843 01:06:15,000 --> 01:06:18,880 can't deal with how he's feeling, Like that's not absurd, you know what 844 01:06:18,920 --> 01:06:21,880 I mean in concept, but the way that she's trying to like sum it 845 01:06:21,960 --> 01:06:25,400 up. And also she keeps using displacement as a noun, which is kind 846 01:06:25,400 --> 01:06:29,639 of driving me nuts. Yeah, it is a displacement, and it's like, 847 01:06:29,719 --> 01:06:32,519 well, that's not how you use that word in my opinion, like 848 01:06:32,760 --> 01:06:41,000 you are displacing your emotions, you know. Yeah, yeah, I think 849 01:06:41,239 --> 01:06:44,760 you know where she is getting things, you know, slightly right, is 850 01:06:45,559 --> 01:06:50,719 there are feelings that Gomez is having about the situation because his expectations, his 851 01:06:50,840 --> 01:06:56,400 idea of how things should be are not matching up with the reality. And 852 01:06:56,519 --> 01:07:01,039 instead of trying to identify those feelings and work around them and figure out, 853 01:07:01,039 --> 01:07:03,960 okay, well this is how I thought it would be when I was reading 854 01:07:04,000 --> 01:07:06,440 I with my brother, Yeah, how it is, and how do I 855 01:07:06,480 --> 01:07:12,880 deal with the current situation? You know, that would be realistic, you 856 01:07:12,920 --> 01:07:18,360 know, whereas it instead, she's pushing them actually to you know, to 857 01:07:18,440 --> 01:07:23,559 treat him more like an impostor, which is ironic because that goes against her 858 01:07:23,639 --> 01:07:28,440 criminal needs. But she's not good at this, so yeah, she's making 859 01:07:28,480 --> 01:07:31,639 it up. She truly making up. She probably just saw the word displacement. 860 01:07:31,960 --> 01:07:36,440 So the first sentence of the definition is like, oh yeah, actually, 861 01:07:36,679 --> 01:07:41,280 you know sound smart and people will just listen to me. And also 862 01:07:41,280 --> 01:07:45,360 she's playing off of the authority figure out psychiatrists. I know what I'm talking 863 01:07:45,400 --> 01:07:49,360 about. You have to listen to me, which in olden days was you 864 01:07:49,400 --> 01:07:55,960 know, used by a lot of professionals, not just psychiatrists to do some 865 01:07:56,079 --> 01:08:00,880 not so cool things. Yeah, she's doing that thing too, which is 866 01:08:00,280 --> 01:08:02,960 not a good therapist move, but people think is a good therapist move, 867 01:08:03,000 --> 01:08:06,079 which is telling people what they feel and why they feel it and how they're 868 01:08:06,079 --> 01:08:13,039 feeling instead of provoking insight. Because if Alma's came in my office and he 869 01:08:13,159 --> 01:08:15,280 was like, fuck my brother, blah blah blah, I would be like, 870 01:08:15,360 --> 01:08:17,920 Okay, tell me what's going on, what's happening underneath that? Why 871 01:08:17,960 --> 01:08:20,199 does it feel hard? Why do we think about you know what I mean? 872 01:08:20,520 --> 01:08:25,680 Like, she's not She's giving them quote unquote an answer and they're running 873 01:08:25,680 --> 01:08:28,439 with it, but they don't have enough context to really know what to do 874 01:08:28,560 --> 01:08:31,119 with it other than they have a name for it now. Because it's not 875 01:08:31,279 --> 01:08:35,239 like the medical model of thinking, where once you have the diagnosis, you. 876 01:08:35,239 --> 01:08:39,880 You you can just do it. You can just know what to do. 877 01:08:39,960 --> 01:08:44,760 Now, there has to be a lot of context and exploration and being 878 01:08:44,800 --> 01:08:48,119 mindful of triggers and all that kind of stuff. Right, So she's doing 879 01:08:48,279 --> 01:08:53,760 what I think we've sometimes been shown what therapists are supposed to do, but 880 01:08:54,199 --> 01:09:00,520 very poorly. She's just she's she's not a real therapist pretending. Sure, 881 01:09:00,199 --> 01:09:03,560 I'm sure we'll get into this in the treatment section, but like if you 882 01:09:03,680 --> 01:09:08,199 had a family like this, yes, you need to provide some psycho education 883 01:09:08,560 --> 01:09:13,039 about the terms, but then you still have to go with, Okay, 884 01:09:13,159 --> 01:09:17,880 what does that mean to you? How are you experienced versus you are this? 885 01:09:18,479 --> 01:09:24,079 You are doing? You are doing this? I mean I never I've 886 01:09:24,119 --> 01:09:26,840 never had that they ever say that to me, thank god, And I've 887 01:09:26,880 --> 01:09:30,039 never said that to a client, like you are doing this? I would 888 01:09:30,560 --> 01:09:34,239 My way of challenging in that kind of way would be like because They'll say, 889 01:09:34,319 --> 01:09:36,680 oh, well, you know this is how it is, and I'd 890 01:09:36,720 --> 01:09:43,960 be like, is it though? I learned from do the head tilt? 891 01:09:44,399 --> 01:09:49,000 And you're like, tell you more about that? What does that mean that? 892 01:09:49,239 --> 01:09:53,399 Like that's the way it should be. You should ask them for their 893 01:09:53,439 --> 01:10:00,319 definitions, they're the experience of their story. Anything else about this before we 894 01:10:00,760 --> 01:10:06,079 go into treatment. All right, we'll take another break here. Okay, 895 01:10:06,319 --> 01:10:11,560 So treatment, I know, Ben, you have an interesting topic in your 896 01:10:11,680 --> 01:10:15,000 pocket, so I will throw to you first about treatment. So thank you. 897 01:10:16,239 --> 01:10:18,920 I mean, it's not really treating, because I not. So we 898 01:10:18,960 --> 01:10:24,159 talked before recording about treatment for that family, and none of them need treatment 899 01:10:24,279 --> 01:10:27,439 because not really. No, they're a very healthy family, ironic, very 900 01:10:27,479 --> 01:10:33,079 healthy. So instead I'm going to choose Okay, I couldn't really decide between 901 01:10:33,239 --> 01:10:41,079 either Tully or Craven. I'm going to choose Tully only because we tell you 902 01:10:41,159 --> 01:10:45,720 we have a little bit more information about what his situation is, and you 903 01:10:45,760 --> 01:10:48,880 know, and I'm looking at this in the terms of Okay, he gets 904 01:10:48,920 --> 01:10:54,560 caught doing this scam and this crime, and so he's quote ordered to treatment. 905 01:10:55,920 --> 01:11:00,479 And so because I don't think he would go by himself as a dead, 906 01:11:00,920 --> 01:11:03,079 especially in the time frame that this seems to be taking place in therapy 907 01:11:03,199 --> 01:11:08,279 wasn't really that talked about. So it's assuming it's modern day, you know, 908 01:11:08,720 --> 01:11:11,079 where they had court order treatment, because I don't think they had that 909 01:11:11,119 --> 01:11:15,079 back then. You know, what would we talk about we talked about, 910 01:11:15,079 --> 01:11:18,720 Okay, well, what's going on in your life? You know that is, 911 01:11:20,199 --> 01:11:24,600 and what are the attitudes and beliefs that may or may not be healthy 912 01:11:24,680 --> 01:11:29,319 or adaptive? We would look at we're definitely I would, you know, 913 01:11:29,600 --> 01:11:33,159 to go f Audian, I guess look at his childhood. Yeah, you 914 01:11:33,199 --> 01:11:38,880 know, because Eugene spoiler alert to all lot of the listeners, everything comes 915 01:11:38,920 --> 01:11:42,800 from childhood. It's a cliche because it's true. Unfortunately, you get that 916 01:11:42,920 --> 01:11:48,039 right absolutely, because the way he might have been raised influences that the attitudes 917 01:11:48,079 --> 01:11:54,199 and beliefs he had about this situation. But for me, you know, 918 01:11:54,279 --> 01:11:57,279 after we go through the childhood story, you know, I would let him 919 01:11:57,560 --> 01:12:00,760 tell his story and I might ask questions about, oh, what didn't that 920 01:12:00,800 --> 01:12:05,560 mean at that time for you? Or how did your family attribute this or 921 01:12:05,760 --> 01:12:12,520 deal with this kind of situation, particularly money. You know, I can 922 01:12:12,560 --> 01:12:17,880 see someone like him who's very anxious for societal approval but also the relationship approval, 923 01:12:18,359 --> 01:12:23,720 to seek out what society views as good. You know, he became 924 01:12:23,760 --> 01:12:29,319 an attorney, he became a lawyer because society views that as successful. He 925 01:12:29,439 --> 01:12:34,279 clearly wasn't a very good lawyer. Indeed, different ways I'm not a lawyer, 926 01:12:34,680 --> 01:12:38,399 but my parents wanted me to be, so I think I can talk 927 01:12:38,399 --> 01:12:42,199 about this. No. Well, Also, i's if his kids are in 928 01:12:42,239 --> 01:12:45,840 the same school as the Adams is. It is make me curious. Also 929 01:12:45,920 --> 01:12:49,680 if if he's living above his means, trying to look more prestigious absolutely than 930 01:12:49,720 --> 01:12:53,600 he is. I don't know if he has children, do they have the 931 01:12:53,640 --> 01:12:57,119 one? Remember, because she says I want to eat him. He's just 932 01:12:57,119 --> 01:13:02,039 like he's too young. Yeah, the his and in his relationship also basically 933 01:13:02,039 --> 01:13:05,520 there's a lot of him trying to present himself as something. But he's also 934 01:13:05,640 --> 01:13:11,279 not communicating with his wife about the stressors in his life, and so she 935 01:13:11,439 --> 01:13:15,479 leaves him for it, right, which is good for her because she's innocent 936 01:13:15,520 --> 01:13:21,520 in this story. She's the true victim here is. But my therapy for 937 01:13:21,640 --> 01:13:27,439 him would be to look at where did these needs come from? And how 938 01:13:27,479 --> 01:13:30,800 were you trying to address those needs in a way that clearly was not helping 939 01:13:30,800 --> 01:13:33,720 you. So what are some other ways that we can address those needs and 940 01:13:33,800 --> 01:13:40,039 understanding attitudes and beliefs about these behaviors and about the pics. That would be 941 01:13:40,199 --> 01:13:45,520 my treatment for Tully. Okay, I think it's great, Hannah, do 942 01:13:45,520 --> 01:13:49,199 you want to go next? Sure, I'll go next. So when I 943 01:13:49,239 --> 01:13:55,239 thought about this, kind of like Ben already said, the family is very 944 01:13:55,279 --> 01:13:59,680 healthy and very loving and very supportive, and I would even and also the 945 01:13:59,720 --> 01:14:06,880 reallyationship between Gomez and Martitia is amazing and beautiful and lovely. So the only 946 01:14:06,920 --> 01:14:14,359 thing that I was thinking about is with Fester and his so he is now 947 01:14:14,399 --> 01:14:18,920 he's been in a relationship for I don't know, for twenty five years. 948 01:14:19,640 --> 01:14:23,359 You know, he's been in this relationship for twenty five years that has been 949 01:14:23,399 --> 01:14:29,119 abusive and unhealthy and has had a huge impact on his mental health. And 950 01:14:30,039 --> 01:14:34,119 I would want to work with Fester and help him identify. When I work 951 01:14:34,159 --> 01:14:39,600 with people who have been in an abusive relationship or are in an abusive relationship, 952 01:14:40,039 --> 01:14:44,800 some of the things that I try to point out right away are are 953 01:14:45,119 --> 01:14:48,680 what does a healthy relationship look like? What does an unhealthy relationship look like? 954 01:14:48,800 --> 01:14:54,319 And what does an abusive relationship look like? Because they're all a little 955 01:14:54,359 --> 01:14:59,319 bit different. And I would really want to help him identify those things, 956 01:15:00,000 --> 01:15:03,399 help him understand what his needs are, and help him understand how he can 957 01:15:03,439 --> 01:15:10,199 advocate for himself in those relationships. Because I think a big part of while 958 01:15:10,239 --> 01:15:14,119 he's now connected to the family in a very healthy way and has kind of 959 01:15:14,159 --> 01:15:18,159 taken his role in the family system in the Adams family, he hasn't had 960 01:15:18,199 --> 01:15:24,520 any He hasn't really had any outside relationships that don't include someone that's his quote 961 01:15:24,600 --> 01:15:30,640 unquote family. So he hasn't so he hasn't really had a good example of 962 01:15:30,680 --> 01:15:33,439 what a relationship should look like, what it can look like. I mean, 963 01:15:33,479 --> 01:15:41,039 we could say that his relationship with Gomez is probably a more healthy relationship, 964 01:15:41,039 --> 01:15:44,560 but it's also very new to him, and he also didn't have to 965 01:15:44,680 --> 01:15:49,000 do He didn't have to suss out Gomez in that way because Gomez was already 966 01:15:49,039 --> 01:15:54,479 so loving and caring and had been caring this love for his brother for a 967 01:15:54,520 --> 01:16:00,439 long time, so so Fester didn't have to is this healthy? Is healthy? 968 01:16:00,680 --> 01:16:04,720 It feels like it feels good? It is healthy, and helping him 969 01:16:04,720 --> 01:16:11,239 identify that for in a romantic way, helping him really understand that so if 970 01:16:11,279 --> 01:16:14,800 he does have any romantic pursuits, as we know he does in the second 971 01:16:14,840 --> 01:16:20,199 film, then we can help him find a relationship that meets his needs and 972 01:16:20,359 --> 01:16:26,600 allows him to be the individual that he is. And doesn't suppress. He 973 01:16:26,600 --> 01:16:30,600 doesn't have to suppress any parts of himself to be in a relationship because it 974 01:16:30,600 --> 01:16:34,000 doesn't feel safe. So I think that that's what I would want to do 975 01:16:34,399 --> 01:16:41,600 with Bester. I think it's great, and you're right on because the sequel 976 01:16:41,640 --> 01:16:45,479 happens. I think what you're talking about is what takes place in the sequel, 977 01:16:45,520 --> 01:16:47,640 which I think once we do that, when it's all going to make 978 01:16:47,680 --> 01:16:50,640 perfect sense. Based on what you just even shared and how we've talked about 979 01:16:50,640 --> 01:16:56,079 today, is that he falls for the first person who love bombs him, 980 01:16:56,239 --> 01:17:00,319 if you will, right, And I think that can happen. And you've 981 01:17:00,359 --> 01:17:04,079 been in relationships that are this engrossing, and I would argue that the Atoms 982 01:17:04,119 --> 01:17:11,560 unfortunately might normalize it might normalize love bombing even more for him because they are 983 01:17:11,640 --> 01:17:15,640 almost too loving in that that will probably get in the way of maybe discerning 984 01:17:16,359 --> 01:17:20,760 new relationships, like you said, so with me, Like I said, 985 01:17:20,760 --> 01:17:26,319 it's hard to know. I was just thinking as a child therapist. They've 986 01:17:26,399 --> 01:17:30,119 chosen to put Wednesday and Pugsley in like mainstream school, which I think is 987 01:17:30,119 --> 01:17:34,079 an interesting decision. It sounds like martitious of that she had tutors at least 988 01:17:34,119 --> 01:17:39,319 for college. They do feel like a homeschooling family, Like a lot of 989 01:17:40,000 --> 01:17:45,199 families that have strong cultural norms that are outside of like the mainstream will tend 990 01:17:45,239 --> 01:17:48,840 to I like, will tend to homeschool like kind of in the way we 991 01:17:48,840 --> 01:17:54,720 talk think about cults and stuff and like really orthodox religious communities and things like 992 01:17:54,800 --> 01:17:58,880 that. So it is interesting that they are choosing to put their kids in 993 01:17:59,119 --> 01:18:02,880 typical society. And so I was just thinking as a child therapist who worked 994 01:18:02,880 --> 01:18:08,039 with families a lot that are put into therapy, not necessarily choosing to be 995 01:18:08,079 --> 01:18:10,920 to therapy. They feel like the kind who would come into my office because 996 01:18:10,960 --> 01:18:15,439 the kids are being so out of pocket, Like the play, for example. 997 01:18:15,520 --> 01:18:18,119 I think the play would be an instance in which they might say, 998 01:18:18,159 --> 01:18:20,520 like you're either going to have to be expelled or you're gonna have to go 999 01:18:20,600 --> 01:18:26,479 to this youth program that'll do family therapy in one on one therapy. I 1000 01:18:26,560 --> 01:18:29,359 worked at a place where that was the case for a lot of families, 1001 01:18:29,359 --> 01:18:30,800 like either your kid gets kicked out of school or they do this program, 1002 01:18:30,920 --> 01:18:34,960 or they have to do a lot of therapy. So I would probably have 1003 01:18:35,039 --> 01:18:41,840 to do some parent coaching with that Gomez Mortitia, just in the sense of 1004 01:18:41,920 --> 01:18:45,439 if you're going to choose to put your kids into mainstream society in this way, 1005 01:18:45,680 --> 01:18:50,199 like there might have to be a bit of an assimilation in terms of 1006 01:18:50,439 --> 01:18:55,600 conduct, in terms of behavior, unless you don't care, right, if 1007 01:18:55,600 --> 01:18:57,600 you don't care that they keep getting in trouble, which I know is the 1008 01:18:57,640 --> 01:19:00,439 context with this keep on keeping on. But if there is something they're wanting 1009 01:19:00,439 --> 01:19:02,640 for their kids, like I said, it'd be interesting to know why they 1010 01:19:02,640 --> 01:19:08,159 made that choice, and then I could help them discern how to do that. 1011 01:19:08,239 --> 01:19:11,479 So sometimes that was what I did with parent coaching and working with families 1012 01:19:11,600 --> 01:19:15,399 is not so much like traditional family therapy as you would think of it, 1013 01:19:15,800 --> 01:19:19,119 but more like, hey, we have to switch up our family dynamic because 1014 01:19:19,119 --> 01:19:24,720 it's having consequences now that we can't live with anymore. They're coming up to 1015 01:19:24,760 --> 01:19:28,960 bite us. And so my job is more like, actually, this is 1016 01:19:29,039 --> 01:19:32,760 more how you could it's more like social skills building and how do we set 1017 01:19:32,800 --> 01:19:38,159 limits we've never had to set before, and how do we encourage both autonomy 1018 01:19:38,399 --> 01:19:45,840 and authenticity while also having to live within a structure that will require you to 1019 01:19:45,000 --> 01:19:49,119 like curb maybe your authenticity a little bit if it's coming out in a way 1020 01:19:49,159 --> 01:19:55,600 that's more criminal or abnormal, I guess. And so that's what I would 1021 01:19:55,640 --> 01:19:57,760 do with them. That's the only thing I can really think of, because 1022 01:19:57,760 --> 01:20:01,560 this seems like they're choosing to live someone outside of their norms. Yeah, 1023 01:20:01,640 --> 01:20:06,720 so there's a consequence to that, just in how society will view you and 1024 01:20:06,760 --> 01:20:10,640 if they're really wanting that for their kid, if they're wanting some assimilation. 1025 01:20:11,119 --> 01:20:14,039 I mean, they do sending to camp later. So I mean, that's 1026 01:20:14,039 --> 01:20:15,680 all stuff we could talk about, like as we get into the sequel. 1027 01:20:15,680 --> 01:20:19,960 So that's like the only thing I can really think of the treatment because they 1028 01:20:20,000 --> 01:20:24,920 have the movie magic of Fester gets hit by lightning, right, he gets 1029 01:20:24,920 --> 01:20:29,319 all his memories back, so there doesn't really have to be any working Fester 1030 01:20:29,399 --> 01:20:33,000 back into the family dynamic and helping him that way because he knows who he 1031 01:20:33,079 --> 01:20:38,319 is now. Yeah, all that stuff. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, 1032 01:20:38,840 --> 01:20:41,560 all right, So we'll take one last break here and then go to final 1033 01:20:41,600 --> 01:20:44,239 thoughts. So now we'll do final thoughts, Ben, why don't you go 1034 01:20:44,279 --> 01:20:49,680 first? Uh? Yeah, So I love this movie. I don't remember 1035 01:20:49,720 --> 01:20:51,720 the first time I saw it. It was a long time ago. I 1036 01:20:51,720 --> 01:20:54,760 mean, it came out that year I was born, so I didn't see 1037 01:20:54,800 --> 01:20:58,279 it when you came out, obviously. I don't think my parents would have. 1038 01:20:58,560 --> 01:21:01,479 You know, I'd been watching that as a big but when I was 1039 01:21:01,479 --> 01:21:08,600 watching it this time round with my brother, just there's so many things going 1040 01:21:08,640 --> 01:21:12,319 on, there's so many themes about family dynamics and everything that just was so 1041 01:21:12,439 --> 01:21:16,439 great. But all all, it's just a great movie. It's very warm, 1042 01:21:16,640 --> 01:21:24,880 it's very fun, serious sometimes but a lot of laughter. You just 1043 01:21:24,920 --> 01:21:29,000 can't help but enjoy the movie. And I mean, for a franchise like 1044 01:21:29,079 --> 01:21:31,720 this that this was how it started. It started off strong and it kept 1045 01:21:31,800 --> 01:21:35,800 going strong. I mean we mentioned the sequels. There's a new Netflix series 1046 01:21:36,039 --> 01:21:41,279 Wednesday, which was amazing. You know, I just love the series. 1047 01:21:41,319 --> 01:21:44,600 I love the Adams family as a whole and all that they stand for. 1048 01:21:45,479 --> 01:21:48,920 You know, so my thumb two thumbs up for me, all right, 1049 01:21:49,159 --> 01:21:53,119 And so Ben, I know you have to skid out all So thank you 1050 01:21:53,119 --> 01:21:55,920 for joining us today. Can you let everybody know where they can find you 1051 01:21:55,960 --> 01:22:00,039 one more time? Yes, you can find me through my two different podcasts, 1052 01:22:00,439 --> 01:22:04,359 Mental Health Quest again. You can listen to them whereever podcasts are found. 1053 01:22:04,760 --> 01:22:11,560 But Mental Health Quest on social media Facebook and Twitter at MHQ podcast, 1054 01:22:12,199 --> 01:22:15,840 and My hero Therapy is on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at my hero 1055 01:22:16,000 --> 01:22:19,159 Therapy. All right, great, thank you so much for joining us. 1056 01:22:19,399 --> 01:22:23,439 Thank you, thank you so much. All Right, I can go next. 1057 01:22:23,439 --> 01:22:26,399 So my final thoughts is, I feel like I have a memory of 1058 01:22:26,399 --> 01:22:29,079 seeing this movie in theaters, which I don't know how that can be true 1059 01:22:29,119 --> 01:22:31,920 because I must have been five years old. But also this is very family 1060 01:22:31,960 --> 01:22:36,840 friendly, like advertised movie, so maybe. And also the thing it's based 1061 01:22:36,880 --> 01:22:43,119 on, the sixties show is like so wholesome in a lot of ways, 1062 01:22:43,159 --> 01:22:45,600 like it's from back in the day when like you couldn't even share a same 1063 01:22:45,640 --> 01:22:49,239 bed with your partner on TV, so I wouldn't be shocked. I guess 1064 01:22:49,279 --> 01:22:53,720 if I was taken to see this when I was really little, because it's 1065 01:22:53,840 --> 01:22:57,520 very family friendly. Maybe I saw a sequel. I don't know, but 1066 01:22:58,399 --> 01:23:02,159 that did imprint on my psyche in that I love this movie. I've seen 1067 01:23:02,199 --> 01:23:08,479 it a billion times. My bathroom is themed Adam's family, not bananas, 1068 01:23:08,600 --> 01:23:11,479 just like my shower curtain, my bath mat and the two frame photos. 1069 01:23:11,479 --> 01:23:15,439 But I love it so much. I used to have a Wednesday costume. 1070 01:23:15,520 --> 01:23:17,760 So I used to have long, dark hair, and so it was a 1071 01:23:17,840 --> 01:23:20,520 very easy costume. Just braid my hair, put on some white makeup, 1072 01:23:20,640 --> 01:23:27,000 and I'm ready to go. So I love this movie. It's interesting with 1073 01:23:27,079 --> 01:23:30,520 like the Wednesday TV show that it's definitely come back in the zeitgeist, very 1074 01:23:30,600 --> 01:23:34,840 like Wednesday Forward. But I love goma Is and Mortitia. I just love 1075 01:23:34,880 --> 01:23:39,319 everything about it. What's kind of sad if you really think of it, 1076 01:23:39,359 --> 01:23:45,239 like this is Charles Adams who created Adams Family initially back in the day. 1077 01:23:45,319 --> 01:23:49,520 Was his name Charles Adams, I think so who did the original like newspaper 1078 01:23:49,560 --> 01:23:56,479 cartoon of it. He created Adams Family as like the antithesis to the American 1079 01:23:56,520 --> 01:24:00,399 family, so kind of the opposite. So goma Is being so to his 1080 01:24:00,479 --> 01:24:06,840 wife is actually was supposed to be a radical inverse of what I would see 1081 01:24:06,880 --> 01:24:11,079 at the time, which I guess is guys threatened, like you know in 1082 01:24:11,239 --> 01:24:15,560 back in the What's I'm thinking of not Jackie Gleeson, but that sitcom from 1083 01:24:15,560 --> 01:24:18,079 Forever Ago where he was always thtarting to punch his wife in the face, 1084 01:24:18,560 --> 01:24:21,119 like I'll take it to the moon, alex Alice, Like there was a 1085 01:24:21,159 --> 01:24:25,960 lot of media back then, of guys like low key high key hating their 1086 01:24:26,000 --> 01:24:30,640 wives. Domestic violence was a joke that you'd see on sitcom. So it's 1087 01:24:30,680 --> 01:24:35,760 not shocking. It's sad, but it's not shocking that Charles's perception of the 1088 01:24:35,800 --> 01:24:40,800 inverse of what he sees in media and what would be a radical idea was 1089 01:24:40,840 --> 01:24:43,960 a guy who was totally into his wife and they have like a happy, 1090 01:24:44,119 --> 01:24:49,399 loving sexual relationship way past having kids and stuff like that. So I think 1091 01:24:49,439 --> 01:24:55,760 this movie is, like you might even mention Hannah, really positive relationship modeling, 1092 01:24:56,359 --> 01:25:00,439 in that Gomez and Mortish are a couple that are still da eating each 1093 01:25:00,479 --> 01:25:05,199 other if you will. They're still making space for each other. They're very 1094 01:25:05,239 --> 01:25:10,079 loving and sexual towards each other. They understand each other, they understand their 1095 01:25:10,159 --> 01:25:15,159 kids. You could argue that are they benefiting Obviously they are from their privilege, 1096 01:25:15,199 --> 01:25:18,039 which allows them to just focus on each other. They don't have jobs 1097 01:25:18,079 --> 01:25:23,199 to worry about, like we do see when they have their first stressor that 1098 01:25:23,239 --> 01:25:27,439 Gomez does shut down and Martitia does have a hard time reaching him. But 1099 01:25:28,720 --> 01:25:30,560 that's like over days, so who knows how they could have bounced back if 1100 01:25:30,560 --> 01:25:34,479 that was like a long term situation. But no, I love this movie. 1101 01:25:34,760 --> 01:25:40,199 I'll watch it every Halloween and more so, this will be the one 1102 01:25:40,239 --> 01:25:43,680 and many many times I will see it. And now I'm getting psyched up 1103 01:25:43,680 --> 01:25:46,760 to watch. I'll probably watch the sequel sometime in like the next few weeks, 1104 01:25:47,279 --> 01:25:50,079 and I'm excited to talk about that when we next get to get to 1105 01:25:50,119 --> 01:25:54,159 that movie. So I will watch this over and over again. I love 1106 01:25:54,199 --> 01:25:59,479 the Adams family. They're my favorite, Hannah. I also love the Adams 1107 01:25:59,560 --> 01:26:03,119 family. I love the film. I love the I love the I love 1108 01:26:03,159 --> 01:26:06,600 the way the film looks. I love the spooks. Yes that is shown. 1109 01:26:06,640 --> 01:26:15,000 I love the lighting. I absolutely adore the half lighting of Martitia's face 1110 01:26:15,239 --> 01:26:18,800 all the time. I love that absolutely. I also love that she looks 1111 01:26:18,840 --> 01:26:26,479 like she floats. I think that's amazing. And I and again, like 1112 01:26:26,800 --> 01:26:30,000 you know, a lot of times on the podcast, we talk about families 1113 01:26:30,039 --> 01:26:33,520 that are hard, and we talk about families that are dysfunctional and have many 1114 01:26:33,600 --> 01:26:38,720 different kinds of problems. But one of the things that's so beautiful about this 1115 01:26:38,840 --> 01:26:45,439 film is that the families is really supportive and loving and kind and thoughtful and 1116 01:26:45,520 --> 01:26:50,119 authentic, and that's not something we see in film and even though it's a 1117 01:26:50,239 --> 01:26:56,960 booky movie and has those that ascetic to it, it still has really beautiful 1118 01:26:57,000 --> 01:27:00,239 relationships. I would argue that Gomez and Martisha have one of the most healthy 1119 01:27:00,720 --> 01:27:05,279 relationships, and again because of their privilege, right, Like that's we're not 1120 01:27:05,319 --> 01:27:08,840 going to say that's not you know, that doesn't play a part, but 1121 01:27:08,920 --> 01:27:15,279 that they have a really healthy relationship that I know I aspire to have. 1122 01:27:15,159 --> 01:27:20,000 Oh hell yeah, because who wouldn't want that? It's so beautiful and so 1123 01:27:20,119 --> 01:27:26,319 lovely. So I also love this film because I think even though we have 1124 01:27:26,359 --> 01:27:31,119 an abusive relationship, we have a lot of really healthy relationships and really kind 1125 01:27:31,159 --> 01:27:34,800 and beautiful relationships. Like one of the things I think is really interesting is 1126 01:27:35,079 --> 01:27:40,640 we don't see Wednesday and Pugsy arguing. We don't see them fighting with each 1127 01:27:40,640 --> 01:27:44,640 other. They're always they're like playing or engaging with each other in some kind 1128 01:27:44,640 --> 01:27:47,439 of way. So again, just just kind of what Brittany said, like 1129 01:27:47,520 --> 01:27:54,439 a lot of really healthy relationships, a lot of really brilliant acting. Christina 1130 01:27:54,680 --> 01:28:00,520 Ritchie as a little, tiny, tiny human, so cute, so cute, 1131 01:28:00,520 --> 01:28:02,520 and so amazing, and so is Pugsley. I always loved Pugsy too. 1132 01:28:03,640 --> 01:28:06,399 His silly smile that he gets on his face. He does something that 1133 01:28:06,439 --> 01:28:15,199 his family approves of, and and I love. Yeah, I just love 1134 01:28:15,239 --> 01:28:18,399 everybody in this film. And I'll watch it every year at least once or 1135 01:28:18,399 --> 01:28:23,159 twice. I'm super excited to watch the next movie. It might happen today. 1136 01:28:23,640 --> 01:28:27,319 I might not be able to stop myself from watching it. So yeah, 1137 01:28:27,399 --> 01:28:31,199 so I love this film and I will always watch it. Yeah, 1138 01:28:31,359 --> 01:28:35,520 I'm not shock you like Pugsy because you also love Jeene Belcher from Bob's Burgers, 1139 01:28:35,520 --> 01:28:41,520 And I feel like there's some overlap in terms of Pugly's presentation and personality 1140 01:28:41,560 --> 01:28:44,680 in Gene Belcher. I could see that. I can see that. I 1141 01:28:44,680 --> 01:28:46,560 don't think you're wrong. I don't think you're wrong. And of course, 1142 01:28:47,479 --> 01:28:51,520 the one thing we did not mention on the podcast today is Batman, and 1143 01:28:51,560 --> 01:28:55,920 so I want to make sure that we talk about Batman at least for a 1144 01:28:55,960 --> 01:29:01,279 second to honor our Ben unable to show up. And I would just say 1145 01:29:01,920 --> 01:29:05,840 that Adam's family loves bats and so does Batman. Yeah, what would it 1146 01:29:05,840 --> 01:29:12,760 be like if Bruce Wayne moved into the Adams family post his parents awful death? 1147 01:29:13,319 --> 01:29:15,880 You know? Which? Of course I know all about because I've seen 1148 01:29:15,920 --> 01:29:18,720 the origin story of his parents' death how many times? Thousand times? I 1149 01:29:18,800 --> 01:29:25,640 now so many times? Yeah, yeah, so we will wrap up there 1150 01:29:25,720 --> 01:29:29,600 because Hannah and I could talk about Adam's family just how we think about it 1151 01:29:29,640 --> 01:29:32,279 forever, forever, forever. So yeah, go check it out if you 1152 01:29:32,319 --> 01:29:36,119 haven't watched it, and as always, you can find us on Facebook, 1153 01:29:36,199 --> 01:29:44,079 Instagram, TikTok at Popcorn Psychology, Twitter slash x barf at Popcorn Underscore psych 1154 01:29:44,279 --> 01:29:46,119 for now, and then if you want to email us, you can email 1155 01:29:46,159 --> 01:29:50,560 USO Popcorn psychologygmail dot com. That's the best way to have more in depth 1156 01:29:50,560 --> 01:29:55,960 conversations with us if you have questions or movie recommendations or things like that. 1157 01:29:56,479 --> 01:30:00,720 As always, you can support us viraa Patreon. We do all this out 1158 01:30:00,800 --> 01:30:04,000 of our own pocket very diy, so if you want to help us out, 1159 01:30:04,000 --> 01:30:09,680 you can go Patreon. If you are a member up to fifty dollars, 1160 01:30:09,880 --> 01:30:13,079 then you can actually pick an episode that we talk about. We recently 1161 01:30:13,079 --> 01:30:15,520 got a fifty dollars patron, so we'll be talking about her movie once bends 1162 01:30:15,560 --> 01:30:20,319 back with us from Family Leave, and you can also sponsor us at teapublic 1163 01:30:20,359 --> 01:30:24,359 dot com if you'd like any merch mugs, t shirts, and anything like 1164 01:30:24,399 --> 01:30:27,239 that. You can look us up on teapublic dot com to support us. 1165 01:30:27,560 --> 01:30:30,800 We really appreciate you all. We're excited for spooky season. We miss you. 1166 01:30:30,880 --> 01:30:34,119 Ben. I hope you're snuggling up with Batman somewhere and we will see y'all later