1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,839 This is a monument in Montreal. It's in Montreal. That's why I care 2 00:00:03,839 --> 00:00:07,160 about it so much. You know. The Museum of Fine Arts bought a 3 00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:13,039 church across from itself and use it to show art, and so the beautiful 4 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:17,760 old church, you know, and then they commissioned a monument to put in 5 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:21,839 front of the church. And this is the monument. Right. The transformation 6 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:28,039 is full, right, the broken, empty angel whose wings are falling off, 7 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:32,679 that has an empty chest, that has no face. You know, 8 00:00:32,759 --> 00:00:37,119 that is half mechanical, half flesh. You don't know what it is. 9 00:00:37,399 --> 00:00:41,280 And these types of statements, they're not They're not arbitrary. Right. It's 10 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:44,759 like if I take a picture of your mother and I rip it, like, 11 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:48,520 you know what that means, right? You know, if I show 12 00:00:48,560 --> 00:01:04,400 a disfigured version of someone you love, you know what that means. This 13 00:01:04,519 --> 00:01:19,040 is Jonathan Peje Welcome to the Symbolic World. Well, welcome back for this 14 00:01:19,079 --> 00:01:25,359 panel. We are pleased to welcome Jonathan Pagot, who will be speaking to 15 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:30,640 us about memory and the role of art and identity. Jonathan Paget is a 16 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:34,879 professional artist, writer and public speaker who comes to us from Quebec, Canada. 17 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:41,879 He lectures in universities, conferences, and numerous venues on art and the 18 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:47,480 symbolic structures that underlie our experience of the world. If you're like me, 19 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:53,439 you first encountered Jonathan through one of his many engaging YouTube conversations on the symbolic 20 00:01:53,519 --> 00:01:57,239 world. And if you're not already one of his one hundred and seventy seven 21 00:01:57,319 --> 00:02:05,879 thousand YouTube followers, I encourage you to sign up. That number indicates that 22 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:09,719 the topics we're talking about here today have a broad resonance, as we heard 23 00:02:09,759 --> 00:02:14,759 earlier this morning, not only with people of faith, but people asking questions 24 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:19,639 about meaning and purpose and how to integrate art and beauty into identity. He's 25 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:23,960 a skilled icon carver, and as you heard from Aidan earlier this morning, 26 00:02:24,319 --> 00:02:30,280 he's also an artistic entrepreneur because he started the Orthodox Arts journal that's trying to 27 00:02:30,319 --> 00:02:36,000 revive liturgical art today. He gives carving workshops with the Hexameran School of Ecclesial 28 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:40,879 Arts, which is accredited through Pontefect's University. He's also working on a graphic 29 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:45,039 novel and I heard last night maybe on some fairy tales. So he is 30 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:49,319 an artistic, creative entrepreneur. We are delighted to have him. Following his 31 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:53,240 presentation, there will be a conversation between Jonathan and myself as well as R. 32 00:02:53,319 --> 00:02:59,360 J. Snell, who also hails from Canada and he is here locally 33 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:01,240 now at the wither Ain Institute, where he's the editor in chief of Public 34 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:07,520 Discourse. He studied philosophy and taught philosophy for quite a number of years at 35 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:13,479 Eastern University in the Templeton Honors College. He is widely published on natural law, 36 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:17,240 ethics, the liberal arts, and a giant now in the Catholic intellectual 37 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:22,479 tradition. So after we hear from Jonathan, we will then have a conversation 38 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:37,520 with myself, RJ. And Jonathan. Thank you Jonathan, so for stuff 39 00:03:38,319 --> 00:03:44,360 I like to thank Margarita and David and Aiden. This is a bit of 40 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:49,439 a tangent, but it's important to understand that I started wanting to thinking that 41 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:53,439 maybe I could carve icons that could do liturgical art professionally, almost as a 42 00:03:53,759 --> 00:03:58,319 dream, as a prayer, as a hope, you know, maybe about 43 00:03:58,879 --> 00:04:02,120 twenty years ago, about ten years ago. The situation in my life made 44 00:04:02,159 --> 00:04:05,520 it possible that possibly I could maybe do this, maybe at first of my 45 00:04:05,599 --> 00:04:10,360 spare time wasn't sure, trying to figure out how to make it happen. 46 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:15,639 And David Clayton, who's right here as the very first person to ever write 47 00:04:15,639 --> 00:04:18,560 about me, you know, going to promote my work, just just talk 48 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:23,079 about what I was doing. And the same with Aiden, you know. 49 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:27,319 Aiden. For those who are not in the Orthodox world or not in the 50 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:30,639 world of the turgical art, there are waves of artists, and in some 51 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:35,680 ways, the waves that came before are the ones who struggled the most and 52 00:04:35,759 --> 00:04:41,319 who made it easier for those that came after. And Aiden is part of 53 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:45,439 that wave that made it possible for so many of us who are able to 54 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:49,839 paint icons, to to make that it's credible that we could create liturgical art. 55 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:54,360 And he was also one of the first people that I wrote when I 56 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:58,279 was kind of struggling, and he was an icon carver, he was actually 57 00:04:58,319 --> 00:05:00,319 doing it, and I wrote him, sent him some of my carvings, 58 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:05,160 and his criticism of my work was extremely helpful. Uh. And and just 59 00:05:05,199 --> 00:05:09,959 to kind of common sense about how to go about this was very helpful to 60 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:13,240 me. So it's a great pleasure to be able to speak with you and 61 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:15,120 to meet all of you for the first time in person, So I want 62 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:17,839 to thank you for that. It's one of the it's one of the prime 63 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:20,399 reason why I came was like, oh I get to meet Aiden and David. 64 00:05:20,439 --> 00:05:25,920 All Right, I'm there, I'm coming. And so what I what 65 00:05:25,959 --> 00:05:30,040 I want to talk to you about today is I want us to maybe start 66 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:34,480 thinking a little differently about art, or kind of provoke you to think differently 67 00:05:34,519 --> 00:05:40,240 about art. I'm very fortunate that Aiden went before me, because he really 68 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:44,480 set the stage for for for what I'm going to say. I almost wanted 69 00:05:44,519 --> 00:05:46,759 to, like, when you hear someone speak and he really does a good 70 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:50,399 job, you almost want to kind of reformulate everything just before starting. But 71 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:54,959 we're kind of going to go along, and I'm going to try to try 72 00:05:55,000 --> 00:06:00,720 to answer also some of the powerful ways that Aidan presented this his vision of 73 00:06:00,759 --> 00:06:06,439 liturgical art. And so in the modern world we have you know, we 74 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:11,120 are the fruits of the avant garde, right, we are the fruits of 75 00:06:11,439 --> 00:06:15,000 modern art. And there's a lot of tangents in modern art. But one 76 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:18,680 of the things that modern art has done, and not just modern art, 77 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:21,800 but even the Romantics before, you know, even the pre moderns, there's 78 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:27,399 a sense in which we started to understand art in a few particular ways. 79 00:06:27,759 --> 00:06:32,519 One was to understand art as something like questioning, right what the artist questions, 80 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:38,600 The artist pokes, the artist provokes and tries to change and tries to 81 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:46,120 revolutionize the means of seeing, the cultural means. And so we are left 82 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:48,519 with this idea, you know, the creative artists, who who is trying 83 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:53,319 to find some new way of representing things, to challenge the old ways of 84 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:58,199 seeing. And this is a very deep, this is a very deep kind 85 00:06:58,199 --> 00:07:01,519 of underlying assumption that we have have in the manner in which we understand art. 86 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:04,720 And so you know, of course, the king of this is Max 87 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:10,600 Duchamp, who really went so far, you know, as to to just 88 00:07:10,639 --> 00:07:14,240 take common objects put them in the gallery, you know, to to play 89 00:07:14,279 --> 00:07:19,079 with identity, you know, to to to question identity itself in his art 90 00:07:19,079 --> 00:07:24,959 production. And and this is the culmination of what it is. And people, 91 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:29,560 like ma said, Duchamp became in some ways the pioneers for what then 92 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:33,199 became contemporary art, whether it whether it's pop art, you know, Andy 93 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:38,279 Warhol, and all the way up to today. The contemporary artists are in 94 00:07:38,319 --> 00:07:44,800 the line of of Macedduchamp. And so you all know Banksy. Now here's 95 00:07:44,839 --> 00:07:50,319 a here's a very powerful, theatric example of of what it is that we 96 00:07:50,439 --> 00:07:56,399 tend to think that art is. And so Banksy had this very theatrical stage. 97 00:07:56,439 --> 00:07:58,920 I'm sorry, it's obviously stage, but you know, hey, they 98 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:01,399 brought one of his pain things out to sell at auction, and while they 99 00:08:01,439 --> 00:08:05,399 were doing the auction, it started to shred into pieces, you know, 100 00:08:05,879 --> 00:08:11,079 as they were selling it, and everybody just celebrated this thing. And now 101 00:08:11,199 --> 00:08:16,480 the piece is worth way more than it was when it was just a painting, 102 00:08:16,839 --> 00:08:22,279 you know. But this type of gesture is a you know, it's 103 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:26,839 a prime example. It's a very recent example of how it is that we 104 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:28,959 understand what it is that we understand art to be, you know, as 105 00:08:28,959 --> 00:08:31,960 this idea of questioning, as provoking, you know, the punk rock, 106 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:39,080 rock and roll idea of what culture is. And so when I want to 107 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:43,639 bring you towards is a different perception of art, and it is in some 108 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:48,919 ways the more universal perception of art. Now, I don't think there isn't 109 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:54,759 room for the provoking. There isn't room for the fool, the holy fool 110 00:08:54,759 --> 00:08:58,440 who who you know, Make sure you know that the king is in God. 111 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:03,080 Right, the graffiti artist that reminds you that this this thing doesn't isn't 112 00:09:03,159 --> 00:09:07,480 full in itself. There's a role for that. But because we're so unused 113 00:09:07,519 --> 00:09:11,639 to thinking about art in the very ancient, more traditional way, we almost 114 00:09:11,639 --> 00:09:16,000 have to re to relearn how that is. And so you know, the 115 00:09:16,039 --> 00:09:22,399 word art means well fitted together, right, that that's what the word means. 116 00:09:22,519 --> 00:09:26,960 It's actually close to the word also in Greek techne, which is our 117 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:31,799 origin of technology. H and even poeesis, which is the origin of our 118 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:37,200 idea of poetry comes the root of it is something like making. So this 119 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:43,200 idea of bringing things and putting them together properly towards their purpose, right, 120 00:09:43,279 --> 00:09:48,559 that is the manner in which the ancients understood art. And so you have 121 00:09:48,639 --> 00:09:52,759 a there's an idea, there's a pattern, there's a episteme, there's a 122 00:09:52,799 --> 00:09:56,960 there's a high understanding, and now you want that to land in the world. 123 00:09:56,200 --> 00:10:01,200 And so in order to do that, you have to gather things together, 124 00:10:01,879 --> 00:10:05,080 and you know, bring them together and make the thing visible for us. 125 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:09,320 Right, And so this is actually very much closer to the way that 126 00:10:09,399 --> 00:10:15,039 the ancients understood what art is. And and funnily enough, like so much 127 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:18,799 irony in the modern world, in America and in the West, it took 128 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:24,279 someone who came from Ceylan. So Ananda Kumaraswami, who is up here being 129 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:28,159 quoted, was when a curator is at Boston Museum at the beginning of the 130 00:10:28,159 --> 00:10:31,799 twentieth century, and he was the one who for the Westerners reminded them, 131 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:37,720 reminded them that ancient art, that the medieval art, the liturgical art, 132 00:10:37,759 --> 00:10:41,559 but also the art of all cultures is first and foremo most in light of 133 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:46,840 this. That is art, the art of carpentry, the art of cooking, 134 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:50,120 the art of wine making, the art but also the art of rhetoric, 135 00:10:50,159 --> 00:10:52,159 the art of poetry, and then the art of painting, the art 136 00:10:52,159 --> 00:10:58,600 of sculpture. That these are all ways in which someone is skillfully capable of 137 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:05,000 gathering means together towards a purpose, right towards the tailos towards something which is 138 00:11:05,159 --> 00:11:09,799 the reason why the object exists in the first place. And so this is 139 00:11:09,919 --> 00:11:16,480 really a you know, it's a it changes our way of thinking about art, 140 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:20,120 you know, because not only in the contemporary world, we understand art 141 00:11:20,159 --> 00:11:26,120 as being provocation, as being questioning, as being you know, kind of 142 00:11:26,159 --> 00:11:31,080 poking at the system. We also tend to understand art as something which is 143 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:37,320 received as a viewer, right, received as a as public. And so 144 00:11:37,399 --> 00:11:41,799 you have a performer and you have a public. You know, you have 145 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:46,519 a painting and you have a viewer. And this is so ingrained in ours 146 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:48,720 right, it's the root of entertainment, it's the it's what brings us to 147 00:11:48,759 --> 00:11:54,879 watch our television screens. But there is a far deeper way of understanding art, 148 00:11:54,440 --> 00:12:00,799 in my estimation, that is more about this gathering, because the gathering 149 00:12:00,879 --> 00:12:05,240 that the ancient arts did was not just the gathering of the stuff, but 150 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:07,879 it's also the gathering of the people. Right, It's also the gathering of 151 00:12:07,919 --> 00:12:11,600 the people around that care for the thing you're doing. But if you make 152 00:12:11,639 --> 00:12:16,039 a good meal and you do it well, obviously it's not just about making 153 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:20,639 a good meal, right, it's about the people that will come in and 154 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:24,000 sit with you and enjoy it with you. And that's true for anything, 155 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:26,919 right. It's true for making a piece of furniture. Right. You don't 156 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:28,559 just make a piece of furniture because you dream it up in the morning. 157 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:33,840 You make a piece of furniture to hold clothing, to sit on to participate 158 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:37,799 in the life of people. And so this ancient vision of art is not 159 00:12:39,039 --> 00:12:43,840 only gathering the stuff, but it also ends up being gathering people into the 160 00:12:43,879 --> 00:12:48,759 purpose that the art is making manifest. Okay, So, and there are 161 00:12:48,759 --> 00:12:54,279 a few people in the twentieth century that actually started to have inklings of that 162 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:58,240 started to re understand it. For example, interestingly enough, Heidegger in his 163 00:12:58,399 --> 00:13:03,840 questions, can turning technology? You know, because for the ancients there was 164 00:13:03,879 --> 00:13:07,759 no difference, no difference between art and techne. These were the same. 165 00:13:09,159 --> 00:13:13,559 You know. When it says in scripture that that Christ was the son of 166 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:16,600 a carpenter, what it says is that Christ was the son of a tecton, 167 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:20,480 the son of an artisan, right, the son of someone who makes 168 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:24,840 things. And for the agents that there was no difference between. I mean, 169 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:30,159 there's a difference because obviously making a piece of furniture and making a painting 170 00:13:30,279 --> 00:13:33,559 is not the same skill. But it was all about bringing these things together. 171 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:41,399 And so Heidegger, in reading the Ancients and reading Aristotle particularly, he 172 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:46,000 comes to this image where he says that technae technology or art right, is 173 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:50,720 a mode of unveiling. Right, it's a mode of revealing, because whoever 174 00:13:50,759 --> 00:13:56,919 builds a house or a ship or forges the sacrificial chalice reveals what is to 175 00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:03,679 be brought forth. And so the artist gathers the things together so that all 176 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:07,960 this would, all these bits of stuff become a boat, become a chalice, 177 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:13,200 become something which has tello, something which has purpose, Okay, And 178 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:16,919 so it's very important to understand that. And when we understand that, then 179 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:20,639 when we look at ancient art, we have a different a different perception. 180 00:14:20,919 --> 00:14:24,840 You. Now. One of the difficulties that we have even looking at ancient 181 00:14:24,919 --> 00:14:28,039 art is, of course that we encounter these things in museums that are septicized, 182 00:14:28,519 --> 00:14:31,440 that are reduced. You come up to a statue that is on a 183 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:35,919 pedestal with a nice blank wall behind it, and then you just look at 184 00:14:35,919 --> 00:14:39,279 the art. Now, of course, none of that art was made that 185 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:43,279 way. None of that art was made to be participated with that way. 186 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:46,879 It's fine, there's nothing wrong with the museum, you know, the especially 187 00:14:46,919 --> 00:14:50,960 since these art, these arts don't have a participative role to play anymore. 188 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:54,919 It's it's it's wonderful to be able to see them. But the agents in 189 00:14:56,000 --> 00:15:01,080 every culture would have understood the arts mostly this right, in the sense that 190 00:15:01,679 --> 00:15:07,399 this is the building that is the highest point in our city. It's dedicated 191 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:11,559 to the god that is the patron of our city. And we make these 192 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:18,720 things that bind us together as a city. So for Athens to exist, 193 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:22,720 the Parthenon is key, right, It's this gathering together of things, is 194 00:15:22,759 --> 00:15:28,759 gathering together of people, this gathering together of attention. Right. The reason 195 00:15:28,799 --> 00:15:33,480 why these temples were often higher than all the other buildings, so that everywhere 196 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:37,799 in Athens you could look up and you could see the thing which is binding 197 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:41,960 you together. You could see this image of your patron God, let's say 198 00:15:41,279 --> 00:15:48,279 that is binding you together. And so this is the This will make you 199 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:50,440 now again see different things. So if you think, for example, of 200 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:54,000 folk dancing, then all of a sudden folk dancing takes on a very different 201 00:15:54,559 --> 00:16:00,159 allure. You know, we think the dancing, We think that you know 202 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:03,039 dancing. And so you go to a performance and you watch ballet. You 203 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:07,120 sit there and then you watch the ballet. That is somehow high culture, 204 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:11,559 right. That is the highest form of culture is to be an observer of 205 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:15,120 people that are doing something with excellence. Now, there's a big difference between 206 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:19,320 that and something like folk dancing, because what does folk dancing do. Folk 207 00:16:19,399 --> 00:16:22,919 dancing makes you participate, right, Square dancing in the United States for a 208 00:16:22,919 --> 00:16:26,919 long time did something like that forced you to participate, but not just to 209 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:33,440 participate, right. The traditional clothing, the traditional music, the language of 210 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:38,080 our culture. And so there's a way in which folk dancing becomes a concentration 211 00:16:38,519 --> 00:16:44,200 of a certain level of identity. That's a good way to understand it. 212 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:48,000 It's like, I have something in common with these people, and it's actually 213 00:16:48,039 --> 00:16:49,879 the reason why I live with them. It's the reason why we're not just 214 00:16:49,919 --> 00:16:53,480 a bunch of strangers, you know, like in the suburbs, but we 215 00:16:53,559 --> 00:16:59,559 actually live together with reason and with a common identity. And so we have 216 00:16:59,639 --> 00:17:03,799 a way to celebrate that. We have a way to remember that, right, 217 00:17:04,039 --> 00:17:08,039 We have a way to bring all this stuff together. So now the 218 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:15,160 dance, the costume, the music, all of that becomes art. Becomes 219 00:17:15,319 --> 00:17:18,599 art in the sense that I'm trying to get you to understand. It becomes 220 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:23,599 this joining together of things, of people, of aspects of reality together so 221 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:29,119 we can recognize them as an unveiling of unity. It's like, oh, 222 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:33,359 yeah, we're Bulgarian or whatever, Like we have something in common. We're 223 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:38,079 a group. And once you understand that, then you know this is the 224 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:42,240 beauty of what Aiden was bringing out, this notion of liturgy, right, 225 00:17:42,279 --> 00:17:48,400 this idea of liturgical practice where in the church you have all these things that 226 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:52,839 were made with love and attention by people, and that enter into a dance 227 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:59,200 together in order to manifest the very reason why we're together in the church. 228 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:03,160 It's different from this because we're not just celebrating or participating in the reason, 229 00:18:03,319 --> 00:18:07,039 you know, the fact of being this or that group, or this or 230 00:18:07,079 --> 00:18:11,200 that you know, having this or that origin in common. But we are 231 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:15,119 celebrating the very source of reality itself, right, We are celebrating the reason 232 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:19,319 why everything exists, right, right, why all things exist is something that 233 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:22,880 we're celebrating when we come to church and we are in the building and we 234 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:27,759 have all these these objects, this music, the words, all of this 235 00:18:27,839 --> 00:18:33,079 comes together with the people in order to reveal this and make us participate in 236 00:18:33,839 --> 00:18:42,480 that reality. And so this can help you understand maybe also why because so 237 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:48,839 these are some of my carvings the understanding this, and there are a few 238 00:18:48,839 --> 00:18:53,359 people in this room that had the same revelation. Understanding this and understanding the 239 00:18:53,559 --> 00:19:00,599 power that art has to bind us towards that which is most important, you 240 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:06,079 know, is what made us move away from the contemporary art world, is 241 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:10,400 what made us realize that there's a richness here that people have forgotten. There's 242 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:15,000 a richness here that is really tapping in to the way the world works. 243 00:19:15,559 --> 00:19:19,839 It's not just it's not just something that is a nice picture or that is 244 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:23,559 a nice object that I can look at and enjoy. But it's more than 245 00:19:23,599 --> 00:19:26,680 that, right it is. It is a form of a deep form of 246 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:32,200 participation in the way that we exist together and actually in the way that reality 247 00:19:32,839 --> 00:19:37,160 reveals itself to us. And so, of course there's still a lot of 248 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:41,680 that today. We often don't think about it, but there's still a lot 249 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:48,759 of this idea of art as participation, of art as celebration. And usually 250 00:19:48,799 --> 00:19:53,279 the remainders of that is, of course civic art, the public spaces or 251 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:56,480 the you know, the go to Washington DC. Why would you go to 252 00:19:56,559 --> 00:20:00,240 Washington, d C. It's not like you can talk to the president or 253 00:20:00,279 --> 00:20:07,759 anything. You go there to liturgically participate in the common origin that binds you 254 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:12,240 together as a nation, you know, And so why would you go and 255 00:20:12,279 --> 00:20:17,799 look at a statue of this dead guy, and you know, I'm gonna 256 00:20:17,799 --> 00:20:21,319 be really I'm gonna push you. But it's like there's a little bit of 257 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:26,240 veneration. There's a little bit of I want to stand there and look at 258 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:32,920 the image of someone that I recognize as having that participating in the reason why 259 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:36,400 I'm here, Like it, I look at this image and I know that 260 00:20:36,759 --> 00:20:40,839 one of the reasons why the United States exists as a country that is one, 261 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:45,880 is because of this person. Okay, And so it is liturgical. 262 00:20:47,039 --> 00:20:51,559 You cannot you won't be able to avoid liturgical. If you try to break 263 00:20:51,599 --> 00:20:56,160 it down and you try to avoid liturgical, you're gonna end up in Graceland 264 00:20:56,400 --> 00:21:00,359 and you'll be looking at Elvis's shoes like you just cannot avoid it, right, 265 00:21:00,599 --> 00:21:04,160 Or you'll be dressing up as Obi Wan Kenobi with your lightsaber, right 266 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:08,599 that you cannot avoid this. This is something that is deeply human, and 267 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:15,079 the most cynical anti religious person will unironically dress up as Obi Wan with his 268 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:19,640 lightsaber and will go to comic Con and will just be so excited to enter 269 00:21:19,759 --> 00:21:26,839 liturgically into the story of Star Wars. Okay, So I just I just 270 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:30,000 hope you can kind of see how inevitable this is, you know, And 271 00:21:30,279 --> 00:21:36,200 in this image you actually see that the artists tried to portray this in the 272 00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:41,160 very image itself. You know, in the seat that Abraham is sitting on, 273 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:48,160 there are the fas cads. They are this ancient Roman symbol of binding 274 00:21:48,279 --> 00:21:52,440 unity, right, all these sticks that are bound together in order to manifest 275 00:21:52,880 --> 00:22:00,119 unity. And so the artists clearly understood that not only is this person and 276 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:03,960 ask and one of the reasons why that unity exists, but also at a 277 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:08,039 secondary level, the people who come there, who read the inscriptions in the 278 00:22:08,079 --> 00:22:14,119 stone, who look at this statue, are re enacting, are participating to 279 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:21,240 some extent in that story and in that identity. Okay, Now this also 280 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:25,960 means that we have to be very attentive. We have to be very attentive 281 00:22:26,519 --> 00:22:30,519 when that starts to shatter, when it starts to break, you know. 282 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:37,720 And and I don't want to say any statement for or against whatever, but 283 00:22:37,759 --> 00:22:44,960 it's important to understand that when those liturgical things, when they get taken down, 284 00:22:45,559 --> 00:22:48,039 there's a world that is changing, right, There's a memory that is 285 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:52,759 changing, there's an identity that is changing, and you can't avoid that. 286 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:59,279 You know, the Christians took down the Roman God's statues and when they did 287 00:22:59,319 --> 00:23:03,920 that, it meant something very profound. It meant the world is no longer 288 00:23:04,079 --> 00:23:08,640 the same, The thing that binds us together is no longer the same as 289 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:15,039 what it was before. There's a deep transformation which is afoot when you start 290 00:23:15,039 --> 00:23:19,319 to see this happen, and so it's important to pay attention and to It's 291 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,839 not my job to deal with that, but it's important to understand what is 292 00:23:22,839 --> 00:23:26,519 happening. And so this this, of course, you know, and this 293 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:32,359 aiden I want to talk about this one last time, so one more time. 294 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:37,279 This this, this is also important to understand that art that is civic 295 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:45,279 and that is celebration, that is participating in identity, necessarily has to have 296 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:52,039 certain forms. Right, if you take an art that is there to question, 297 00:23:52,519 --> 00:23:56,599 to poke, right to rip at the identity of something, and you 298 00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:00,359 put it up in a public space and you put it up as a civic 299 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:07,160 monument, you are entering very dangerous a very dangerous place. And the difficulty 300 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:11,000 we have and I'm saying this because there's a lot of that that happened in 301 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:17,480 churches in the past fifty years, and it wasn't done on purpose. It 302 00:24:17,559 --> 00:24:22,319 was done with people who were looking at the modern art around them and not 303 00:24:22,519 --> 00:24:29,000 totally sometimes understanding visually what the art was doing, not completely gathering into themselves. 304 00:24:29,319 --> 00:24:34,119 The implications of showing broken people, of showing you know, things that 305 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:38,599 are cut, things that are things that are shredded, and then just putting 306 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:44,839 that up in public spaces, in the church, you know, just wanting 307 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:48,519 to kind of be modern and not realizing that there there are these are very 308 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:52,000 organic, They're not arbitrary. Right. It's like if I take a picture 309 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,960 of your mother and I rip it, like, you know what that means. 310 00:24:56,559 --> 00:25:00,720 You know, if I show a disfigured version of some one you love, 311 00:25:00,799 --> 00:25:03,319 you know what that means. And so the fact that we just kind 312 00:25:03,319 --> 00:25:07,000 of forgot that and we've accepted these weird things. And so this is this 313 00:25:07,079 --> 00:25:11,799 is a monument in Montreal. It's in Montreal. That's why I care about 314 00:25:11,839 --> 00:25:15,240 it so much. By David Admed. You know, the Museum of Fine 315 00:25:15,279 --> 00:25:21,200 Arts bought a church across from itself and used it to show art, and 316 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:26,160 so the beautiful old church, uh, you know, and then they commissioned 317 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:30,400 a monument to put in front of the church, and this is the monument, 318 00:25:30,759 --> 00:25:34,200 and so right, the transformation is is full. Right, the broken, 319 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:40,920 empty angel whose wings are falling off, that has an empty chest, 320 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:45,039 that has no face. Uh, you know, that is half mechanical, 321 00:25:45,319 --> 00:25:49,319 half made, half flesh. You don't know what it is. And these 322 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:53,440 types of statements, they're not they're not arbitrary. And so you know, 323 00:25:53,480 --> 00:26:00,160 what you're seeing in some ways is the is the the evisceration of the church, 324 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:03,000 which was now transformed into something else. I wish they would have done 325 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:07,359 it differently. They could have, but they could have done it differently, 326 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:11,640 but that's the way that they decided to go at it, possibly for reasons. 327 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:18,640 And so this, of course is I showed you an image of the 328 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:21,960 Parthenon to kind of tease you a bit, or to poke you myself. 329 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:25,759 I'm sorry. You know, there's a way in which there's a problem with 330 00:26:25,799 --> 00:26:29,640 this. There is a problem with this thing. You know. The gods 331 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:34,160 fight amongst each other, right, the identities fight amongst each other all these 332 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:38,400 cultures, they also lead to conflict and war, and so how do we 333 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:44,160 deal with that problem? Right? The questioning of identity, the poking at 334 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:51,240 the system is not always completely illegitimate because identity leads to conflict. It just 335 00:26:51,279 --> 00:26:55,480 does. That is that's part of the problem. And what you see in 336 00:26:56,319 --> 00:27:02,839 Scripture is you see the beginning of a of a of a transformation of the 337 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:10,079 problem. There's a there is a very deep relationship between art and identity in 338 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:15,640 the negative sense in the in the Bible, and one which God transforms into 339 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:21,839 something beautiful and positive and glorious. But it's important to understand it because we 340 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:26,960 have to be cautious about the way we enter into identity, and especially as 341 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:30,079 people start to poke at identity, we sometimes want to just react and say 342 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:33,200 it's like, no, you know, I am this or I have I 343 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:37,519 have this identity. We have to be very careful. And so in Scripture, 344 00:27:37,039 --> 00:27:41,799 the development the development of the arts follow one thing. They follow the 345 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:48,839 murder of Able, and so Cain kills Abel and then Cain is chased away 346 00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:57,200 from God. On on his body is placed the mark which excludes him from 347 00:27:57,559 --> 00:28:02,559 the presence of God, we could say, and then that mark leads Caine, 348 00:28:02,599 --> 00:28:07,799 and that exclusion leads Cain to develop civilization, to develop. The first 349 00:28:07,799 --> 00:28:10,559 thing he does is he builds the city. The first city is built by 350 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:15,359 Cain himself, and then his descendants are the origin of music, the origin 351 00:28:15,759 --> 00:28:22,200 of metallurgy, the origin of tent making. And so you see in the 352 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:26,839 descendants of Cain this this strange thing. Why why is it that it's in 353 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:32,279 the descendants of Cain that this happens? And there are corollaries to this actually 354 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:37,519 in other cultures. You know, Hephiestos, for example, is a it's 355 00:28:37,559 --> 00:28:42,119 almost like is almost like a cane figure. Right, he is thrown out 356 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:48,039 of Olympus for some impropriety and he lands in Hades, and that it's in 357 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:52,359 Hades that now he develops the skill to make the beautifully forged objects, the 358 00:28:52,839 --> 00:28:56,920 weapons, the things that the gods prize in terms of in terms of techne 359 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,000 and in terms of art, right, the capacity to to make things. 360 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:07,440 And so why why is that? It has to do with the with the 361 00:29:07,519 --> 00:29:11,839 problem It just has to do with the problem of inside and outside. It 362 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:17,119 has to do with the problem of identity, because once when civilization starts, 363 00:29:17,559 --> 00:29:22,640 war starts. It's an inevitable part of building a wall around your city. 364 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:25,920 If you build a wall around your city means there's some people that are inside 365 00:29:26,039 --> 00:29:29,400 and there's some people that are outside, and those people that are outside, 366 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,279 you know, they're looking inside. Maybe they want what you've got, And 367 00:29:32,319 --> 00:29:34,559 now you've got to defend your walls against the people outside. And it creates 368 00:29:34,759 --> 00:29:40,640 it's an acceleration of the fall itself. Right, That's what happens. When 369 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:45,640 Adam and Eve take the fruit for themselves and are see themselves as naked, 370 00:29:45,839 --> 00:29:49,759 they immediately see the other as a threat. Right right away. What happens, 371 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:53,319 Adam blames Eve, you know, Eve blames the serpent. It's right 372 00:29:53,359 --> 00:29:56,759 away me you you know, you're the bad guy. It's not my fault. 373 00:29:57,279 --> 00:30:02,400 There's there's just this immediate opposition which happens. And this, this opposition 374 00:30:02,559 --> 00:30:06,920 is just a just a part of civilization and it ends up being a part 375 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:10,960 of technology and of human making, one which is difficult to deal with. 376 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:17,599 Now. What what happens in in the in the Bible is that God takes 377 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:22,559 that and transforms it powerfully. Right, he does exactly. Aiden had such 378 00:30:22,559 --> 00:30:26,680 a beautiful image taking it from Saint Ephraim saying, right, the fruit of 379 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,359 the knowledge of good and evil. Think about it this way, the fruit 380 00:30:29,519 --> 00:30:33,880 of opposition, of opposition between two things, right, if taken for you 381 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:41,240 yourself becomes Yeah, it becomes that it becomes, it becomes opposition. Now, 382 00:30:41,799 --> 00:30:45,599 if you are given the fruit, then it becomes. It can become 383 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:49,400 life itself in the sense that it becomes the capacity to distinguish. The capacity 384 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:52,599 to distinguish is not wrong, but it has to be. Let's say, 385 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:55,960 hey, it has to come from Heaven. Is the good? Is the 386 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,200 best way to understand. It has to come from above. And what you 387 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:04,400 see in the worry of the tabernacle is exactly that God reveals to Moses the 388 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:11,799 pattern of the tabernacle. The tabernacle is the memory of Eden. That is 389 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:15,359 what it is. The tabernacle is based on the image of the garden of 390 00:31:15,519 --> 00:31:21,680 Eden. It is the idea of the candelabra that's there. And you also 391 00:31:21,799 --> 00:31:27,599 have the cherub that are guarding the arc guarding the tabernacle. And so there's 392 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:34,799 a direct relationship between the participation in the in this space and a return to 393 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:41,200 Paradise, a return to Eden. And it is you could say it's something 394 00:31:41,319 --> 00:31:47,559 like memory perfecting itself slowly. Memory being because memory is two things, right. 395 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:52,920 Memory is distance from something right, and memory is also direction towards something. 396 00:31:53,279 --> 00:31:59,480 When I even the word like we remember, it's like we bring multiplicity 397 00:31:59,559 --> 00:32:04,200 back in to its tailors when we remember. And so when you remember God, 398 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,759 when you remember the heart, all these these these expressions that we use 399 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:12,480 in Christian thinking, that is, that is what you're doing. You know 400 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,599 you're going to see that obviously, all this will lead up, you know, 401 00:32:15,599 --> 00:32:19,559 to communion ultimately as this perfect you could say perfect memory. H but 402 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:24,400 this is already what's happening here in the in the tabernacle. And so if 403 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:28,519 you read, if you read Ectodus, you'll see it's not just the Tabernacle, 404 00:32:28,519 --> 00:32:31,839 it's the Passover, it's all these things which are Remember Remember remember what 405 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:37,759 happened, Remember your origin, Remember where you come from. Remember what binds 406 00:32:37,799 --> 00:32:42,079 you together. Why are you Israel? Because I Am the God of Abraham, 407 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:45,759 Jacob, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. That is why you are Israel. 408 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:51,720 You are bound both by Especially this revelation is powerful because God is saying, 409 00:32:51,759 --> 00:32:53,400 I am the God of Heaven, I'm the source of everything. I 410 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:59,960 am supreme, but I'm also the God of your Father's. One comes out 411 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:01,759 after the other in some you know, in an important way. I am 412 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:05,400 that I am, but I'm also the God of your Father's. I am 413 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:09,160 the place where you recognize your origin to be in Abraham, right, And 414 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:15,960 so it's that so the participation in the ritual of the Tabernacle, the remembrance 415 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:21,160 have passedover, the remembrance of these feasts was always to remember where you come 416 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:23,799 from, remember where you know, where where you are, and that becomes 417 00:33:23,839 --> 00:33:29,079 a way to participate in it, or to participate in something which is kind 418 00:33:29,079 --> 00:33:34,920 of beyond the beyond the beyond the now now like or just the commonality of 419 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:40,279 everyday life. And so now this this this this question again, right, 420 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:45,079 this is the problem, right, this is this is the problem that I'm 421 00:33:45,079 --> 00:33:52,920 talking about, is that techne unity identity often leads to this. It leads 422 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:57,920 to Babbel, you know. And this is of course the ultimate image of 423 00:33:58,039 --> 00:34:01,279 the city gone wrong, right, this city that tries to contain everything, 424 00:34:01,559 --> 00:34:06,000 the city that tries to take the fruit for itself, that tries to make 425 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,840 a name for itself and not receive the name from above, not receive the 426 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:13,079 revelation from above, but make a name. We're going to make a name 427 00:34:13,119 --> 00:34:15,679 for ourselves, right, we hear that in common parlance. But this is 428 00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:22,000 of course what leads to Babbel, and the kind of the complete distortion of 429 00:34:22,199 --> 00:34:25,239 art into this pride is the best way to understand it. What I want 430 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:30,559 to show you that this idea of memory and of celebration and of remembering is 431 00:34:30,599 --> 00:34:35,360 one which even though we have this kind of modern art there, it's always 432 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:37,239 there. It's always kind of it's this underlying current. You're going to see 433 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:40,360 it, if you pay attention, you'll see it. And so everybody you 434 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:44,480 know this is he's the famous artist, Jackson Pollack is the famous artist. 435 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,920 You know he he it's process. It's it's all about process. It's not 436 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:52,920 about the thing it's about it's about this expressivity. It's about a kind of 437 00:34:52,119 --> 00:34:57,280 ordered chaos. It's about this this explosion of color, end of end of 438 00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:00,760 of art. Uh. And he's the avante art, right, He's the 439 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,360 one who's pushing the boundaries, right, who's at the edge. But while 440 00:35:04,559 --> 00:35:09,440 this was happening, and even the teacher of this person is this person Thomas 441 00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:15,719 Hart Benton. And in the United States you have this whole current called regionalism 442 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:19,559 that a lot of people don't know about. For some reason, that was 443 00:35:19,639 --> 00:35:23,159 a desire to, you know, with the crumbs that are left to celebrate 444 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:29,480 something about our lives to celebrate the worker, to celebrate you know, the 445 00:35:29,599 --> 00:35:34,480 stories, the difficulties that people went through. And so there was this design. 446 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,960 And you can see that this type of art, this type of art, 447 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:40,960 and the other is a completely different nature. They're just not in the 448 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:46,079 same world. They're talking about things very differently, not just visually in terms 449 00:35:46,079 --> 00:35:50,079 of subject, but also in terms of purpose, right, in terms of 450 00:35:50,079 --> 00:35:53,440 purpose. And so regionalism is the type of art that you will find in 451 00:35:53,679 --> 00:36:00,000 the nineteen thirties in civic art in the United States because it had something, 452 00:36:00,039 --> 00:36:05,719 It had the right way of celebrating, of remembering the things that the sacrifices 453 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:08,320 of our of our forebears, and and putting them there for us to be 454 00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:14,079 able to to see them. Okay, now you know this is I want 455 00:36:14,119 --> 00:36:16,280 to show you how difficult it becomes. Is that, uh, you have 456 00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:22,000 some a similar situation happening in Europe and in Russia, and there it goes. 457 00:36:22,039 --> 00:36:24,199 The other way that it went with Pollock is that you have this push 458 00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:30,599 in Russia, this push towards supremacism and constructivism to kind of break the way 459 00:36:30,679 --> 00:36:35,239 that people used to see the world, to really push it to its edge. 460 00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:37,000 You see, you know, The craziest example is, of course, 461 00:36:37,039 --> 00:36:42,840 in in Futurism, Italian futurism. Bocconi is a was one of the members 462 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:45,400 of the futurists movement in Italy, where it's it was really explicit like art 463 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:51,800 is violence, art is destruction. Art is this this this push that we 464 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,920 need to break everything to be able to move into the future, you know, 465 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:59,599 but that that that can't hold. It's almost like you pull the pendulum 466 00:36:59,639 --> 00:37:05,280 so far are and then when it snaps, then it goes into this which 467 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:08,440 is also modern art, right, this is modern art. That that's modern 468 00:37:08,559 --> 00:37:13,599 art there. Uh And there was obviously a version of this in in in 469 00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:16,360 uh in Germany as well. Uh. And so how do we how do 470 00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:20,639 we deal with that? Because that's a problem. I hope you agree that's 471 00:37:20,639 --> 00:37:25,960 a problem. This is a problem, right, It's like why the Stalin 472 00:37:27,079 --> 00:37:30,480 the you know, Stalin the hero. So, so how do we avoid 473 00:37:30,079 --> 00:37:36,159 participative art that wants to remember, that wants to make us connect to our 474 00:37:36,199 --> 00:37:38,239 origins, connect to our participates, to our to our world, to our 475 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:44,880 to our commonality without propaganda? How do we do it? Right? Because 476 00:37:45,119 --> 00:37:49,840 the modern artists that we're breaking everything, some of them had the right intuition 477 00:37:50,599 --> 00:37:54,119 about the problem of propaganda. Right, And we have to understand that this 478 00:37:54,199 --> 00:37:58,920 is not a new question. You know, Plato knew that in the Republic. 479 00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:02,480 Plato knew already the problem of art, the problem of poetry, the 480 00:38:02,519 --> 00:38:08,159 problem of rhetoric, the problem of artistically putting together things because they can be 481 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:14,360 used to manipulate your your your idea, they can use they can be used 482 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,199 to make you care for things that maybe you wouldn't care about, right, 483 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:22,239 they can they can be used to make you think something is important that maybe 484 00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:27,159 you shouldn't think is important. Right. That's ultimately for us, that becomes 485 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:34,280 advertisement. It's like advertisement is all celebration, Advertisement is all participation. But 486 00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:37,360 that's not what we want, right. We don't want something that is so 487 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:42,719 shallow and so and so manipulative. And so how do we do it? 488 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:46,320 How do we deal with this? And I think that I think that Christians, 489 00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:53,480 you know, as they came into place and as the language of the 490 00:38:53,639 --> 00:39:00,079 art in the Church started to establish itself, I think they found what I 491 00:39:00,079 --> 00:39:05,000 think is the best solution. And it's one which is not arbitrary to Christianity, 492 00:39:05,039 --> 00:39:09,400 but is rather at the very source of the particularities of what Christianity is. 493 00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:15,280 As images started to appear in the Christian Church and started to take shape, 494 00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:19,280 it took several centuries. It took a while for this to kind of 495 00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:22,360 gel and to crystallize, you know, by the tenth century, by the 496 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:30,199 eleventh century, you could say that there were two basic images of Christ, 497 00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:35,920 two central images of Christ. And one is the one we could call the 498 00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:40,960 Pentocrator, which is Christ here shown with the book. And this is it's 499 00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:46,880 an eschatological image. It's a Christ as he will appear in glory. It's 500 00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:52,360 Christ as he will show himself to us when all has been revealed and all 501 00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:55,920 has been brought together in the finality. Right, it's not just about future. 502 00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:00,000 It's something that can pierce in now. It's something that you can experience 503 00:40:00,199 --> 00:40:04,079 now. But there is a sense in which is beyond the it's beyond the 504 00:40:04,119 --> 00:40:07,239 mere historical, something which is piercing through from the other side, piercing through 505 00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:12,920 from that final moment. And then the other image that becomes central, you 506 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:15,480 know, especially there is a sense in which one becomes more central in the 507 00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:19,039 east, one becomes more central in the west. But it's a little over 508 00:40:19,079 --> 00:40:22,960 exaggerated, but then you have the cross, and so you know, we 509 00:40:23,079 --> 00:40:28,519 have to every time you look at a crucifix, like, don't forget how 510 00:40:28,679 --> 00:40:32,480 weird that is, Like, don't forget that. You know, you have 511 00:40:32,599 --> 00:40:37,119 this thing above the kinistasis or above the altar in front of you, that 512 00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:42,800 is the image of a dead person. And it's and it's crazy. But 513 00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:47,760 it's an interesting just just I'm gonna be utilitarian. It's an interesting idea. 514 00:40:49,679 --> 00:40:52,599 It's like, wait a minute, at the top, the thing that's the 515 00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:58,840 most celebrated is actually the thing that gives itself. Oh, the thing at 516 00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:02,280 the top, that think that's actually most celebrated is the thing that empties itself. 517 00:41:02,679 --> 00:41:07,280 Huh okay, well that's different from the king, right, that's different 518 00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:13,199 from Athena or Zeus that goes around raping everybody. It's like, it's quite 519 00:41:13,199 --> 00:41:16,559 different, right, it's quite different. You know, there's there's a different 520 00:41:16,639 --> 00:41:22,599 vision. It's the same for this idea of Christ, the eschatological Christ. 521 00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:24,599 It's like, no, no, don't think you've got it right, don't 522 00:41:24,599 --> 00:41:30,760 think you've mastered it. It's coming, it's coming over the horizon. Right, 523 00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:35,960 call for it, ask for it, Ask Christ, Come Lord Jesus. 524 00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:39,440 But don't think that you you got it right, like that you're the 525 00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:44,920 one. And so these two powerful images they they're they're like I said, 526 00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:49,440 it's not arbitrary. It's something about the very nature of the of the of 527 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:54,719 the Christian faith which makes these images the central images and bring the possibility to 528 00:41:54,840 --> 00:42:00,960 celebrate, to remember, to worship, you know, at least giving the 529 00:42:00,039 --> 00:42:06,480 possibility of alleviating the problems of pride and the problems of identity. Doesn't mean 530 00:42:06,519 --> 00:42:09,039 the Christians were always able to do it, you know, your history obviously 531 00:42:09,119 --> 00:42:15,440 not. But there's a difference between there's a qualitative difference between that and the 532 00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:19,719 you know, the the then the Augustus, the son of God, who 533 00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:25,239 is all powerful and is literally a manifestation of a divine principle in the world, 534 00:42:25,639 --> 00:42:30,679 and that can rule over you, you know, with his with his 535 00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:35,400 fist, or some other Roman emperor or some other ancient Egyptian pharaoh that had 536 00:42:35,519 --> 00:42:37,599 right of life or death over everybody in their kingdom. There's a there's a 537 00:42:37,639 --> 00:42:43,639 there's a big difference between the two. So what what what that will give 538 00:42:44,159 --> 00:42:46,719 in terms of culture, what what type of images it will provoke? Can 539 00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:52,119 be very interesting to think about this way, and so this is this is 540 00:42:52,199 --> 00:42:55,360 this is a type of image that you'll see in many medieval churches, Orthodox 541 00:42:55,440 --> 00:43:01,400 churches. And what it is. It is the rich powerful person, in 542 00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:07,519 this case, a rich aristocrat in Constantinople, sometimes the Emperor himself, sometimes 543 00:43:07,519 --> 00:43:14,079 the king himself prostrating himself before the true Emperor, the true King. And 544 00:43:14,119 --> 00:43:17,960 what is he doing. He's offering the church, but the church the building, 545 00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:22,960 that is, he's offering the art. He's offering the arts to Christ. 546 00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:27,280 That's what's going on there. It's like I paid for this church, 547 00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:30,800 I hired a bunch of architects, a bunch of artisans to make this beautiful 548 00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:37,840 church, and I'm offering it to Christ. And so the summit is again 549 00:43:37,039 --> 00:43:42,800 eschatological. This image of Christ is the Christ. He's sitting on his golden 550 00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:45,559 throne. He has returned. He is the Christ. It fills up the 551 00:43:45,679 --> 00:43:50,599 entire cosmos, that fills up the entire world. This is what the art 552 00:43:51,079 --> 00:43:57,360 is being offered to. And then then you'll notice that in a let's say 553 00:43:57,559 --> 00:44:00,599 several there are different images that manifest that. This is an image called the 554 00:44:00,639 --> 00:44:06,760 hetimasia, which is this image of the prepared throne and so it's an image 555 00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:10,599 of the throne which is prepared for the final revelation of Christ. And so 556 00:44:12,039 --> 00:44:15,320 you know, it's a beautiful image of this offering up right. It's like 557 00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:19,440 gathered these elements together. There's the book, there's the throne. There's this 558 00:44:19,679 --> 00:44:24,239 throne of the emperor, which is prepared for this final moment. And so 559 00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:29,719 that is what we do aiden this morning. You know, beautifully talked about 560 00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:34,840 the the Eucharist in a way that like might scandalize some of you because he 561 00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:37,000 came right up to it and I'm gonna push you over the edge, he 562 00:44:37,079 --> 00:44:42,920 said. He said, Eucharist is art. The gifts are art. Were 563 00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:45,639 made them. We made the bread, we made the wine, and then 564 00:44:45,679 --> 00:44:51,480 we offer it up to become the very blood and body of Christ. You 565 00:44:51,519 --> 00:44:54,800 know, it's like that's a really powerful image. You know, in some 566 00:44:54,960 --> 00:45:00,199 moments during the Byzantine period, it was the emperor who would come up to 567 00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:05,400 the door of the of the Iconostasis of the of the Templon and would bring 568 00:45:05,559 --> 00:45:09,280 the bread to to to hand over to the priests or the bishop who would 569 00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:14,000 take it and then consecrate it. It's like, here's my kingdom, here's 570 00:45:14,079 --> 00:45:16,599 all these things gathered. Right, here's all these things that are our works, 571 00:45:16,599 --> 00:45:20,320 our efforts, all this stuff that we do, all these activities that 572 00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:23,679 we do, and we're offering up to become the body of Christ. And 573 00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:29,159 so that's a very powerful image. And then that again, and then the 574 00:45:29,159 --> 00:45:32,920 the eucharists obviously it has many there's there's beyond symbolism in the Eucharist, but 575 00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:37,039 one of the aspects is that emptying as well. That's there in the Eucharist. 576 00:45:37,119 --> 00:45:42,480 Right. The Eucharist is both is both the eschatological Christ and also the 577 00:45:42,559 --> 00:45:46,679 Christ that empties himself and gives his body and his blood for to fill us 578 00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:52,840 up and so speed up really fast. And so this is one of Aiden's 579 00:45:52,079 --> 00:45:55,920 ascension. And so if you if you think, if you start to think 580 00:45:55,960 --> 00:46:00,519 that way, then you're you're going to start to notice that a lot of 581 00:46:00,519 --> 00:46:02,400 the images, especially in the Orthodox tradition, that's the tradition that I know, 582 00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:07,719 have a very strange eschatological element, you know in them. And so 583 00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:10,840 this image of ascension is obviously an image of the ascension. I mean, 584 00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:15,360 it's the moment that Christ rose, but it also is eschatological in its very 585 00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:21,679 form, right, it's revealing to you the structure of the world. The 586 00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:25,039 divine Logos is above in heaven, you know, and he's either going off 587 00:46:25,119 --> 00:46:28,480 or coming down. You're not sure. This could be like the return of 588 00:46:28,559 --> 00:46:36,840 Christ in a very strange way. And then down below is the footstool of 589 00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:40,559 the throne. The Mother of God is there underneath him. And then you 590 00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:45,639 have the Church which is gathered. And how do you know it's eschatological because 591 00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:50,760 Saint Paul is there? Why is Saint Paul there? This is not just 592 00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:54,199 a snapshot. This is trying to bring you into that moment where the entire 593 00:46:54,320 --> 00:47:00,400 church is gathered in the in the in the past or in the one who 594 00:47:00,519 --> 00:47:06,239 rules overall things and so. And then you have some images with which have 595 00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:10,719 aspects of kenosis and of emptying and so. An example again is in the 596 00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:17,119 image of the Nativity, where Christ is represented as a child who is already 597 00:47:17,679 --> 00:47:22,559 in the tomb, who's already you know, contained in this. You know, 598 00:47:22,039 --> 00:47:25,960 it's weird for people again, that sort of Jesus is so weird. 599 00:47:27,039 --> 00:47:29,960 It's just so bizarre. We're so used to it, we stopped thinking about 600 00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:32,559 it. Like, why was Christ laying in the food troth for animals? 601 00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:37,880 Right? Why because he's he's going to the bottom, right, he's going 602 00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:39,000 to do it. He's going to do it when he dies, but he's 603 00:47:39,039 --> 00:47:43,400 already doing it now. He's going to the very bottom of the world, 604 00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:46,119 the very place where animals eat, right to the to the foundation of all 605 00:47:46,159 --> 00:47:50,840 things. And so you have this canotic element as well, all right, 606 00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:54,719 and so and then all of this is of course leading to the final image, 607 00:47:55,360 --> 00:48:00,880 right, and this is the final image which restore the story from the 608 00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:08,800 beginning. We have to understand the Heavenly Jerusalem as the final restoration, even 609 00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:14,039 of you could say Cain, not say Cain is saved. I don't know, 610 00:48:14,199 --> 00:48:19,320 God knows that. But it's the restoration of the very first moment of 611 00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:23,159 that sin, that sin of murder that led to civilization, is being transfigured, 612 00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:28,519 is being filled, you know, in the image of the heavenly Jerusalem 613 00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:31,079 which comes down. And if you read it, if you read the text, 614 00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:36,039 it's very powerful. Right says I did not see a temple in the 615 00:48:36,079 --> 00:48:38,360 city, because the Lord of God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 616 00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:42,400 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, 617 00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:45,119 for the glory of God gives it light. And the lamp is its lamp. 618 00:48:45,519 --> 00:48:50,760 And this is where it's related to what I'm telling you about, in 619 00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:54,480 terms of how do we make our identities proper, how do we make our 620 00:48:54,920 --> 00:49:00,559 rejoicing, our celebrations proper. It says the nation will walk by its light, 621 00:49:00,679 --> 00:49:04,519 and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. So 622 00:49:04,559 --> 00:49:08,760 what do the kings do? They offer their glory to God. They bring 623 00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:15,119 their glory into service of the heavenly Jerusalem. On no day will its gates 624 00:49:15,159 --> 00:49:19,239 ever be shut, for there will be no night there. The glory and 625 00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:22,079 honor of the nations will be brought into it. And again a repetition of 626 00:49:22,119 --> 00:49:28,000 that very theme, which is all our identities, all these little identities that 627 00:49:28,039 --> 00:49:31,039 we have, if we live them properly, we live them in service, 628 00:49:31,079 --> 00:49:37,119 We live them in giving them up towards the true King. And so there's 629 00:49:37,159 --> 00:49:42,840 nothing wrong with being American or Canadian, our French, or whatever identity that 630 00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:45,639 you participate. It doesn't have it. You can also be like part of 631 00:49:45,679 --> 00:49:49,039 a soccer team or a football team, or part of of something that you 632 00:49:49,159 --> 00:49:52,559 recognize as being you, something that you participate in that gives you a sense 633 00:49:52,599 --> 00:49:58,800 of meaning and a sense of purpose. All those things can really be filled 634 00:49:59,239 --> 00:50:05,039 if they are ultimately, you know, directed towards the heavenly Jerusalem, towards 635 00:50:05,079 --> 00:50:08,320 the highest good, towards towards the highest Image. And in this image, 636 00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:15,239 again surprisingly enough, you have these two images represented quite powerfully in this particular 637 00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:19,400 image, which is you see the Christ, You see Christ in glory, 638 00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:22,199 Christ as the King, Christ as the ruler of all, the one who 639 00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:27,519 fills the world with his power and his judgment. And then on him is 640 00:50:27,599 --> 00:50:32,159 the Lamb, which is the sacrifice. And those two together are what these 641 00:50:32,159 --> 00:50:37,079 two images I talked about, this eschatological and canotic image coming together as being 642 00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:44,639 what Christianity proposes as a possible solution to art, to identity, to the 643 00:50:44,639 --> 00:50:46,920 way we participate in the world. So thank you everybody to your coming. 644 00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:58,880 Thank you Jonathan. I have to say that was fantastic. I was cheering 645 00:50:58,920 --> 00:51:01,159 there as you got to the end. And I want to give the first 646 00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:06,239 question to RJ. But don't worry. I decided I'll kind of summarize a 647 00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:09,239 little bit of what I heard from Jonathan to get us going. When I'm 648 00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:14,920 teaching a great text or have students listen to a great guest lecture. I 649 00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:20,719 often try to pull out some key scenes and I wanted to do that here. 650 00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:22,559 I was doing that myself as I was listening and we were having a 651 00:51:22,559 --> 00:51:27,920 conversation yesterday about thinking visually. I often kind of teach visually. Okay, 652 00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:30,280 how did I organize what Jonathan said? And I wanted to highlight some really 653 00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:34,280 key terms. And the mic is not on so good? Okay? Is 654 00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:38,079 the mic lot now great? Okay? Sorry, especially for those of you 655 00:51:38,119 --> 00:51:43,400 on live stream. What I would like to do to start us off is 656 00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:45,559 to pull out what I heard were some really key themes from Jonathan, and 657 00:51:45,599 --> 00:51:49,000 if we don't get through them all today, we also, I mean this 658 00:51:49,119 --> 00:51:52,800 morning, we also have the breakout sessions with him later. But what I 659 00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:55,760 thought the very first thing you said really struck me, and I have like 660 00:51:55,800 --> 00:52:00,440 this schema that I have right on the one hand, there's idea as performance 661 00:52:01,199 --> 00:52:07,119 or identity as participation. I also heard you say we can think of art 662 00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:15,320 as tearing down or gathering. We can think of how we interact with the 663 00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:21,519 material world and art as something that's a manipulation or a celebration. Art can 664 00:52:21,559 --> 00:52:27,280 have an impact on our common life by promoting division, or union. We 665 00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:34,000 can think that what goes into art is purely arbitrary or there's form. Then 666 00:52:34,079 --> 00:52:38,440 we can think about our relationship to the material world as one of possessing or 667 00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:44,800 offering. And then I thought you pulled it together so beautifully because after kind 668 00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:50,880 of laying out those tensions around the place of art and identity and culture, 669 00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:54,599 you then offered a vision. You know, eight in this morning kept talking 670 00:52:54,639 --> 00:53:00,159 about art as offering a vision, and you offered an incredible, beautiful vision 671 00:53:00,199 --> 00:53:05,599 of what art could be because you brought in the transcendent, you brought in 672 00:53:05,679 --> 00:53:09,079 God. You started with the Cross, and you talked about worship and the 673 00:53:09,239 --> 00:53:15,000 eschatological and the Eucharist, and you essentially allowed us to see that the proposal 674 00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:21,559 of Christianity is that the heavenly Jerusalem can be made known through form and through 675 00:53:21,599 --> 00:53:27,920 worship and through art and then flow back out in a healing river to a 676 00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:32,119 culture that has suffered a lot of division and manipulation and tearing down and in 677 00:53:32,159 --> 00:53:36,599 a way of forgetting of who we are as human person. So that's what 678 00:53:36,679 --> 00:53:39,559 I took away from your talk. Jonathan, does that sound would you own 679 00:53:39,599 --> 00:53:45,599 that most of it? I would say no, no, you didn't miss 680 00:53:45,599 --> 00:53:50,800 anything. I just didn't say I would say I would say that. I 681 00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:54,719 would say that, at least in our situation. I don't like the heavenly 682 00:53:54,800 --> 00:54:00,159 Jerusalem is eschatological, right, so in some ways it can't be completely known 683 00:54:00,199 --> 00:54:05,880 by human forms. Now it can be, you can be it can bring 684 00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:08,159 you closer, right, and so you can be brought into an inkling and 685 00:54:08,239 --> 00:54:15,840 into an anticipation and into a a let's say, a smell of what is 686 00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:20,360 the final revelation, And in some ways it has to do so, you 687 00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:22,400 know, I didn't go as deep into the notion of memory, but that's 688 00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:25,280 the best way to understand it. It's like, uh, you know, 689 00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:28,920 we think we only remember things in the past, but actually no, we 690 00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:32,639 also remember the future. Uh. And that's that's a moment when we're remembering 691 00:54:32,679 --> 00:54:37,559 the future. You know, we're we're actually remembering in the in the future. 692 00:54:37,639 --> 00:54:39,000 And you do it all the time. By the way, it's not 693 00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:42,360 weird. It's not like this weird magical thing I'm saying. You know, 694 00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:45,760 every time you build something, you're remembering the future because you haven't made your 695 00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:50,519 thing yet, and so you're you're looking into the in the into the future, 696 00:54:50,679 --> 00:54:54,079 and you're remembering towards that point, and the and the heavenly Jerusalem is 697 00:54:54,119 --> 00:54:59,199 the ultimate version of that. Right, Thank you. I'll just say there's 698 00:54:59,199 --> 00:55:02,840 a there's a term already and not yet. That's the kind of anticipation. 699 00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:07,320 Yeah, I turned it on. Thanks so much for your talk, Margeriti, 700 00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:08,480 thank you for the invitation, Thanks to all of you for being here. 701 00:55:08,559 --> 00:55:13,119 I apologize from an eyepatch. I'm not cosplaying pirate whatever. My seven 702 00:55:13,199 --> 00:55:17,400 year old thing recovering from eye surgery. Marguerite had asked me to think about 703 00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:22,800 some of the questions of art and Jonathan's talk as they relate to the political 704 00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:25,960 common good, of how we might think of the work of the artist, 705 00:55:27,039 --> 00:55:30,239 contributing or failing to contribute in some ways from your own talk to the ability 706 00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:35,840 to have a shared common political life. So we see this, I think 707 00:55:35,880 --> 00:55:38,800 in many ways in your discussion of the gathering together. The folk dance brings 708 00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:42,880 a common good of the dance. The temple, which is raised high above 709 00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:45,400 the city, gives a source of unity and direction to the people, so 710 00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:50,599 that there's a kind of common good. But I'd like to explore a little 711 00:55:50,599 --> 00:55:53,280 bit some of the challenges that I think we face at the contemporary moment and 712 00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:59,559 wonder if Art's up to the task in some ways of needing to do what 713 00:55:59,599 --> 00:56:01,960 we need to do. So first, if we think about some of the 714 00:56:02,039 --> 00:56:07,639 challenges facing us in the political common good, I think it's not the case 715 00:56:07,719 --> 00:56:13,400 that everyone goes to Washington, DC and venerates at the Jefferson and Lincoln memorials. 716 00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:17,000 If anything, it may be quite the opposite. So some months ago, 717 00:56:17,039 --> 00:56:20,400 in margueritea mention that I may be part of this panel, I watched 718 00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:22,400 some of your videos, and this week I thought I better watch some of 719 00:56:22,440 --> 00:56:25,199 them again. I was watching very serious videos about symbolic realism. But then 720 00:56:25,239 --> 00:56:30,400 because of the wickedness of the powers of the algorithms on YouTube, there was 721 00:56:30,440 --> 00:56:34,519 on the side a conversation about the inverted pentagram talk about you, So of 722 00:56:34,559 --> 00:56:38,519 course I had to watch about the inverted pentagram. And in your conversation you 723 00:56:38,559 --> 00:56:43,360 mentioned how the pentagram, the right side up pentagram has a source of unity 724 00:56:43,400 --> 00:56:45,639 at the head, and then you have the top of the triangle, and 725 00:56:45,679 --> 00:56:50,760 then you have the four differences brought into unity. The inverted pentagram is quite 726 00:56:50,760 --> 00:56:55,119 the opposite. The inverted pentagram is trying to in some sense bring unity at 727 00:56:55,119 --> 00:57:00,480 the bottom out of the many eplurbus unum from the many one. But it 728 00:57:00,519 --> 00:57:05,400 doesn't work. And you make in that talk a very interesting suggestion, which 729 00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:09,079 is you suggest that in our own cultural moment, not having a source of 730 00:57:09,159 --> 00:57:15,280 unity, we're trying instead to fragment by going to the margins those who were 731 00:57:15,559 --> 00:57:20,880 previously the oppressed or the marginalized, the subaltern. Their experiences are privileged, 732 00:57:21,440 --> 00:57:24,519 and there's not a veneration for unity. In fact, a whole lot of 733 00:57:24,559 --> 00:57:30,280 our culture looks like the angel in front of the church in Montreal. Prime 734 00:57:30,280 --> 00:57:34,079 Minister Trudeau recently said that the nation of Canada has no identity at all. 735 00:57:34,199 --> 00:57:37,400 It's a post identity nation. It's the inverted pentagram. That's why I moved 736 00:57:37,440 --> 00:57:45,039 to the United States, where it is also eplerbus unham though but not working. 737 00:57:45,079 --> 00:57:47,800 So that's when the political reality seems very difficult. Two. The power 738 00:57:47,840 --> 00:57:52,920 of the arts to do this. Many years ago, the Welsh poet David 739 00:57:52,039 --> 00:58:00,039 Jones wrote his epic poem Anathemata. It's his attempt to recreate British identity through 740 00:58:00,199 --> 00:58:06,039 art, and it fails miserably. No one understands any of the references to 741 00:58:06,199 --> 00:58:09,480 or Theorian legends. And in fact, the introduction to the poem begins with 742 00:58:09,559 --> 00:58:15,320 his notion of the break, which is that because there is no cultural memory, 743 00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:17,280 there can be no art. He says, the poet is dead. 744 00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:22,559 The poet can't make reference to wood and assume that the citizen will think of 745 00:58:22,719 --> 00:58:25,159 the cross or the tree of life. There'll be no reference at all. 746 00:58:25,440 --> 00:58:29,320 You can't refer to water there is, There'll be nothing there to refer to. 747 00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:31,320 Even some of the images that you refer to here, I wonder about 748 00:58:31,320 --> 00:58:36,320 their power. So you show us the reference of Tubulcane. The image of 749 00:58:36,320 --> 00:58:39,519 Tubulcane that you showed us is from the Spanish chapel in Santa Maria Novella. 750 00:58:40,000 --> 00:58:44,239 Those of us in my own school call that fresco the triumph of Saint Thomas 751 00:58:44,280 --> 00:58:50,360 Aquinas. But Tubulcane is in the very bottom right of the piece. There 752 00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:54,159 is a narrative unity prior to the works of Cain. If you think of 753 00:58:54,199 --> 00:58:58,880 the piece at the top, we have the Holy Spirit descending upon the upper 754 00:58:58,960 --> 00:59:02,960 room or this. Ciples are gathered around our lady, and she's immediately above 755 00:59:04,039 --> 00:59:07,679 Thomas Aquinas, who is the source of synthesis. It's a Dominican propaganda piece. 756 00:59:09,480 --> 00:59:15,039 Across the wall is the Dominicans dressed as dogs, attacking and tearing apart 757 00:59:15,079 --> 00:59:21,920 the heretics. Thomas is above a variees Arius and Nester and all of that. 758 00:59:22,239 --> 00:59:28,480 Theology and Holy Spirit provides the backstory for the arts and sciences, and 759 00:59:28,519 --> 00:59:32,280 tubal Caine is on the very bottom and the very rights, and the ordering 760 00:59:32,320 --> 00:59:37,360 of the arts and sciences is from the least important to the most important. 761 00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:40,880 So does art really it's actually it's it's the it's the left. He's not 762 00:59:40,920 --> 00:59:45,360 on the right. It's because from the point of view of from our perspective, 763 00:59:45,639 --> 00:59:49,119 yeah, it's always the point of view of the people in the icon 764 00:59:49,400 --> 00:59:52,119 will help you understand which side he's on. The very next, and then, 765 00:59:52,239 --> 00:59:57,360 very briefly, the tabernacle that you refer to. Lord Rabbi Jonathan Sachs 766 00:59:57,440 --> 01:00:00,360 used to use the image of the tabernacle in a very interesting way. He 767 01:00:00,400 --> 01:00:02,679 would say, the story of creation in Genesis one is very short. The 768 01:00:02,719 --> 01:00:07,920 story of the creation of the Tabernacle is very long. It goes on and 769 01:00:07,960 --> 01:00:10,400 on, and his take was, it's very easy for God to make a 770 01:00:10,440 --> 01:00:14,320 home for us and very difficult for us to make a home for God, 771 01:00:15,280 --> 01:00:19,199 but that the story of the Tabernacle was in some ways the story of the 772 01:00:19,239 --> 01:00:22,039 formation of the Hebrews themselves as they made it. But then he would also 773 01:00:22,119 --> 01:00:27,519 remind the reader, but of course there had been a story before of God 774 01:00:27,719 --> 01:00:31,599 making the people. So what is it that we're remembering now if the break 775 01:00:31,679 --> 01:00:38,039 is so severe? And are the arts really up to the task? No, 776 01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:40,360 I don't think. I don't think the arts are up to the task. 777 01:00:40,480 --> 01:00:44,519 And it's if you think of it in the political realm, there's no 778 01:00:44,599 --> 01:00:50,039 way, there's no it's not possible that you know, there's a you can 779 01:00:50,079 --> 01:00:52,480 really understand it if you want to understand what's going on. You can understand 780 01:00:52,519 --> 01:00:57,000 a culture in what it celebrates. If you want to know where a culture 781 01:00:57,079 --> 01:01:00,280 is, just look at what it celebrates, and then you will see what's 782 01:01:00,320 --> 01:01:05,800 going on in that culture. And right, we could say in some ways 783 01:01:05,840 --> 01:01:08,760 that if you think of a traditional church, of like a medieval Gothic church, 784 01:01:08,800 --> 01:01:12,639 you had the altar in the center, and then you had the nave 785 01:01:12,719 --> 01:01:16,360 and the narthex, and then outside you have the gargoyles and the weirdness, 786 01:01:16,559 --> 01:01:20,440 and it's actually you know where you looked at the manuscripts yesterday, and in 787 01:01:20,519 --> 01:01:23,519 late medieval manuscripts they had that very structure in the manuscript itself, where in 788 01:01:23,559 --> 01:01:28,440 the middle of the manuscript you had even a sacred image, and then on 789 01:01:28,480 --> 01:01:34,039 the outside and on the margins you had even sometimes quite lewde and you know, 790 01:01:34,400 --> 01:01:38,280 vulgar or humorous or kind of crazy images of mixtures of different animals and 791 01:01:38,280 --> 01:01:43,440 all this stuff. And so you know, there's a sense in which our 792 01:01:43,480 --> 01:01:46,320 whole culture right now is like worshiping the carnival. The best way to understand 793 01:01:46,360 --> 01:01:51,920 it, it's like like we're worshiping the gargoyles, like all the idiosyncrasy, 794 01:01:51,920 --> 01:01:54,119 all the strangeness, and but it's important to understand that the carnival has a 795 01:01:54,239 --> 01:01:58,440 role or the carnival isn't bad. The carnival is good. We need the 796 01:01:58,480 --> 01:02:02,559 carnival. Porum is like a celebration in the Bible, like and we have 797 01:02:02,840 --> 01:02:07,000 we have marti Gras, we have carnival in the Orthodox tradition. Right, 798 01:02:07,039 --> 01:02:10,519 so there's nothing, there's nothing wrong with carnival. It's always about its place, 799 01:02:10,599 --> 01:02:14,559 right, and there's nothing And the gargoyles are fine if they're in the 800 01:02:14,599 --> 01:02:17,320 proper place. Now, if we flip it and then we take the gargoys 801 01:02:17,320 --> 01:02:21,480 and you put them on the altar, right, then you have they have 802 01:02:21,559 --> 01:02:23,119 the problem of the abomination. Right, you have this, and all of 803 01:02:23,159 --> 01:02:27,679 a sudden it becomes like a scandal to have that. Uh. And so 804 01:02:28,519 --> 01:02:32,079 our culture, through many many iterations, has come to a point where there 805 01:02:32,360 --> 01:02:37,039 is this like worship of Carnival is the only way to say it in terms 806 01:02:37,039 --> 01:02:43,440 of entertainment, in terms of of this kind of upside down and swirling culture, 807 01:02:44,480 --> 01:02:46,400 all of that is is what what Carnival is. Think about it, 808 01:02:46,480 --> 01:02:50,519 just like a giant Carnival wheel. Just woo, you're going around with like 809 01:02:50,880 --> 01:02:54,199 with with clown music playing like that's that that's what we celebrate. So uh, 810 01:02:54,559 --> 01:02:59,840 I don't think politically it is possible to deal with that, because politically 811 01:03:00,239 --> 01:03:04,639 the solution to that is not a great one because politically it's like, all 812 01:03:04,719 --> 01:03:07,239 right, well, now we're gonna just bring the knife down and you know, 813 01:03:07,320 --> 01:03:10,280 the end of Carnival is lent, right, remember that, And so 814 01:03:10,519 --> 01:03:15,960 it's like we're gonna fast now. And so that's a dangerous it's like a 815 01:03:15,079 --> 01:03:20,880 dangerous move. When I showed you Alenski and the Russian constructivist and the Russian 816 01:03:21,239 --> 01:03:23,760 artists. The same thing was happening in Germany. Things were chaosic, dada 817 01:03:23,880 --> 01:03:28,320 and all this weird stuff, and then the knife came down and what you 818 01:03:28,400 --> 01:03:32,159 have after that is a kind of authoritarian reaction to the carnival. And honestly, 819 01:03:32,519 --> 01:03:36,880 I don't think politically it's a solution. That's why I think the solution 820 01:03:37,079 --> 01:03:40,159 is a is a religious one. There's no other solution. The solution is 821 01:03:40,400 --> 01:03:45,679 to turn our hearts towards God, to become saints, to become to become 822 01:03:45,800 --> 01:03:49,320 the thing that we're talking about, to live it out in our families, 823 01:03:49,360 --> 01:03:52,119 to live it out in the world around us, and to know that that 824 01:03:52,599 --> 01:03:58,000 you know, that remnant, whatever however it looks, you know it will 825 01:03:58,079 --> 01:04:00,360 ride the arc, through the through the wars. Uh. And to me 826 01:04:00,480 --> 01:04:03,679 that is really uh, you know. And I and I'm not against political 827 01:04:03,719 --> 01:04:06,960 action. I think political action is fine, but I but I don't think 828 01:04:08,000 --> 01:04:20,440 that I really don't think the solution ultimately is there. Thank you, Jonathan. 829 01:04:21,360 --> 01:04:26,320 I wanted to just you know, continue with this conversation if you could 830 01:04:26,880 --> 01:04:33,760 perhaps say a little bit more about following on our Jay's question about the civic 831 01:04:34,119 --> 01:04:39,400 So the so the solution is not a political solution, it's a turning us 832 01:04:39,400 --> 01:04:43,199 back to God. But then could you talk us through what that just what 833 01:04:43,239 --> 01:04:45,800 that would look like, right if we turned back to God? And then 834 01:04:45,840 --> 01:04:50,519 that's yeah, well, because I think the implication was that if we turn 835 01:04:50,599 --> 01:04:54,679 back to God, it'll have an influence on the civics. Okay, So 836 01:04:54,719 --> 01:04:58,079 I'm fine, I'm fine to talk about that. One of the problems we're 837 01:04:58,079 --> 01:05:00,960 facing right now, especially call you in America. I'm Canadian. It's it's 838 01:05:01,000 --> 01:05:05,559 weirder, but it's different. That is that one of the problems we have 839 01:05:05,760 --> 01:05:10,440 is that if we don't have the top place, which is held by the 840 01:05:10,480 --> 01:05:15,519 divine logos, all we have are idols. And so one of the things 841 01:05:15,559 --> 01:05:20,840 that's happening is that we expect, we expect the founders of your nation. 842 01:05:21,000 --> 01:05:28,199 We expect the important people that have led to important historical transformations to be God. 843 01:05:28,639 --> 01:05:31,719 That's what we expect because because the problem that's happening is people are seeing 844 01:05:31,760 --> 01:05:36,599 their sin and then they're freaking out, like their sinners destroy the statue, 845 01:05:36,800 --> 01:05:41,519 right, And that's that's the problem. That's what happens, Like when things 846 01:05:41,599 --> 01:05:45,360 fall into the political sphere. That's what happens, right, those statues of 847 01:05:45,480 --> 01:05:51,280 Stalin and of Lenin, they are gods for all intents and purposes. They 848 01:05:51,320 --> 01:05:55,800 are the highest point of attention. And so this is the this is the 849 01:05:55,840 --> 01:06:00,519 problem. Now if if I think the Medievals had a really inch had an 850 01:06:00,559 --> 01:06:02,639 interesting way of seeing it. You know, they had this whole tradition they 851 01:06:02,639 --> 01:06:06,440 called the Nine Worthies where they would celebrate the people, the ancients of the 852 01:06:06,480 --> 01:06:11,719 past, and there were there were a certain amount that were like from the 853 01:06:11,760 --> 01:06:15,719 Old Testament, and then there was pagans, and there was people in their 854 01:06:15,760 --> 01:06:18,760 own age, and you know when they celebrated Alexander, they would say, 855 01:06:18,800 --> 01:06:24,239 this is why we celebrate Alexander, and these are his sins, right, 856 01:06:24,320 --> 01:06:27,760 this is why we celebrate this person, and these are his sins. But 857 01:06:28,159 --> 01:06:30,480 it's like, yeah, that's it, that's that's what it means to be 858 01:06:30,599 --> 01:06:33,719 human. But that is also because our highest point of attention was beyond those 859 01:06:33,760 --> 01:06:38,119 people, and it wasn't a kind of worship of the political leader. It 860 01:06:38,159 --> 01:06:41,920 was something which moved beyond it. So could I as see you maybe a 861 01:06:41,920 --> 01:06:44,519 follow up to that, Jonathan. You know, we had a conversation on 862 01:06:44,599 --> 01:06:47,800 YouTube a while ago about Mary the Mother of God. And I've been teaching 863 01:06:47,800 --> 01:06:53,800 a class on a cumenical devotion to Mary here at Princeton Theological Seminary. And 864 01:06:53,840 --> 01:06:58,440 I taught that class because there seemed to be a renewed interest among my Protestant 865 01:06:58,480 --> 01:07:02,119 students to think about mayor Mary in revelation, Mary in scripture. And then 866 01:07:02,159 --> 01:07:05,360 I had a local artist who's here with us today, wanna belche whose art 867 01:07:05,400 --> 01:07:10,000 is in the room, come give a presentation on prototypes of Mary and art, 868 01:07:10,000 --> 01:07:13,960 and boy, the students were just fascinated by the images. And so 869 01:07:14,039 --> 01:07:16,559 as I've taught this class, I've actually begun to wonder if maybe you know 870 01:07:16,679 --> 01:07:20,239 we said you just said a moment ago, the answer isn't purely political. 871 01:07:20,960 --> 01:07:25,639 I wonder if part of the enduring attraction of Mary the Mother of God is 872 01:07:25,639 --> 01:07:29,679 that it connects the liturgical and the charismatic, the church and the home, 873 01:07:30,239 --> 01:07:33,519 and that maybe what liturgical art can do, and proper veneration, including veneration 874 01:07:33,599 --> 01:07:38,119 for Mary the Mother of God, it can make the faith that you're talking 875 01:07:38,199 --> 01:07:47,239 about personal and from the home then can outflow the grace to build community. 876 01:07:47,400 --> 01:07:49,639 Right, I mean, I think sometimes people want to build community with a 877 01:07:49,719 --> 01:07:56,039 strategy. Anyone ever been to a community building strategy session? Yeah, I 878 01:07:56,079 --> 01:08:00,239 mean you all laugh, Right, community has got to be built person and 879 01:08:00,280 --> 01:08:03,639 by person. And I think somehow I'm just conjecturing her that Mary the Mother 880 01:08:03,719 --> 01:08:10,639 of God represents that that personal person to person, that what happens in Sunday 881 01:08:10,639 --> 01:08:14,400 worship has got to be taken into the home, into the place of the 882 01:08:14,440 --> 01:08:17,800 messiness of home life with pain and suffering, but also celebration and joy, 883 01:08:17,880 --> 01:08:21,520 and from the church to the home and then back out into society. So 884 01:08:23,239 --> 01:08:25,720 is that my question, I guess, is Mary the Mother of God? 885 01:08:25,800 --> 01:08:29,760 And I know, I think I think for sure the Mother of God is 886 01:08:30,000 --> 01:08:34,079 important, especially even because she is in some ways that body, right, 887 01:08:34,159 --> 01:08:39,960 she she's that place where it comes together in the sense that she's that gathering 888 01:08:40,000 --> 01:08:42,319 you know, you saw in the image of Ascension. It's well, it's 889 01:08:42,319 --> 01:08:46,439 beautifully represented where she stands in the center and and all the all the disciples 890 01:08:46,479 --> 01:08:49,920 gather around her. You know, it's like she's this mother that is kind 891 01:08:49,960 --> 01:08:54,199 of gathering them inside. And so she she is, of course an image 892 01:08:54,319 --> 01:08:57,680 of the church, like the culmination of the of the church. On earth, 893 01:08:57,720 --> 01:08:59,840 you could say, I don't know how to say it in the right 894 01:08:59,840 --> 01:09:04,520 place way. But and then then also she she's also been very much the 895 01:09:04,640 --> 01:09:10,119 great protector of cities, by the way, because she is also an image 896 01:09:10,159 --> 01:09:14,399 of the city, or the common or the coming together people. And so 897 01:09:14,560 --> 01:09:18,119 you know, when when the barbarians would come to the gates of Constantinople, 898 01:09:18,159 --> 01:09:23,039 they would take the icon of the Mother of God and they would parade on 899 01:09:23,079 --> 01:09:27,159 the walls with that icon, and there are many examples of you know, 900 01:09:27,199 --> 01:09:30,399 them just turning back, or all kinds of miraculous stories. Uh. And 901 01:09:30,439 --> 01:09:33,439 then of course the the image of the protection of the Veil, which some 902 01:09:33,479 --> 01:09:36,840 of you might have seen, where there's a kind of a version of that 903 01:09:36,880 --> 01:09:40,960 in Catholic art too. You see the Mother of God standing above the church 904 01:09:41,000 --> 01:09:44,880 and she's holding a veil which protects, you know, the common, protects 905 01:09:44,880 --> 01:09:46,960 the unity. In the Catholic tradition, you have this image of her with 906 01:09:47,039 --> 01:09:51,039 her with her coat like her investment open, and then all the people that 907 01:09:51,079 --> 01:09:57,159 are gathered inside her. And so I think that it's that definitely there is 908 01:09:57,199 --> 01:10:00,680 something in order to embody and in order to to be able to understand the 909 01:10:00,720 --> 01:10:04,680 common and the places where we can recognize each other and recognize each other as 910 01:10:04,960 --> 01:10:10,840 participating in something that binds us. That her example and her guidance is you. 911 01:10:11,560 --> 01:10:15,119 I'm keen to keep us on time. So if RJ has a brief 912 01:10:15,199 --> 01:10:18,000 question, he can go Otherwise I'll wind it down. Well, she used 913 01:10:18,000 --> 01:10:23,159 the patroness of the American Yeah. Well, and I'll just say, I 914 01:10:23,199 --> 01:10:25,800 mean, I began this morning, you know, and I talked to you 915 01:10:25,840 --> 01:10:30,399 about how when I visited my mother's home village in Cuba, that the villagers 916 01:10:30,399 --> 01:10:33,840 came out and after forty years they had preserved the memory of the people that 917 01:10:33,840 --> 01:10:38,720 I had lived there before, and the stained glass windows with the Blessed Mother 918 01:10:38,920 --> 01:10:43,680 and roses. Not only had the church been desecrated, the rose garden that 919 01:10:43,760 --> 01:10:47,239 my mother remembered was gone. Right if we don't protect our churches and our 920 01:10:47,279 --> 01:10:53,760 sacred art, people stopped planting roses, you know. And then after time, 921 01:10:53,800 --> 01:10:56,640 you know what else happened. They stopped working. Because if we tell 922 01:10:56,680 --> 01:10:59,600 people that they're only made to work and they're not made to garden, and 923 01:10:59,600 --> 01:11:03,039 they're not me to worship, people in Cuba stopped working. And I asked 924 01:11:03,079 --> 01:11:09,479 myself, these people have preserved for forty years, these windows. What have 925 01:11:09,560 --> 01:11:12,760 I preserved for forty years? You know? The only thing I could think 926 01:11:12,800 --> 01:11:15,920 of that I've not thrown away in all my moves. Well, two things. 927 01:11:15,520 --> 01:11:20,680 Photographs of family members I have preserved and an icon of the Mother of 928 01:11:20,720 --> 01:11:26,319 God that I got when my best friend got married in Cyprus. And I've 929 01:11:26,359 --> 01:11:30,720 taken that icon and I've kissed it, I've slept with it when I was 930 01:11:30,760 --> 01:11:35,600 scared or upset, and it comes with me on every single trip. Photographs 931 01:11:35,640 --> 01:11:41,439 of my family and an icon of the Mother of God help me connect remember 932 01:11:41,680 --> 01:11:46,079 past, present and future, help keep me grounded to those mysteries that happen 933 01:11:46,119 --> 01:11:49,279 in the sacred liturgy, and remind me, as you know, Aiden Talk 934 01:11:49,319 --> 01:11:53,560 says, if it's so easy to live up to our vocation as human beings, 935 01:11:53,600 --> 01:11:56,319 I often want to, you know, pull back and just kind of 936 01:11:56,399 --> 01:12:00,439 put the covers over my head. But when I have that icon with me, 937 01:12:00,479 --> 01:12:02,079 and I have the memory of the people who've gone before me, I 938 01:12:02,119 --> 01:12:06,840 remember that my life has a purpose and that I'm participating in something and I'm 939 01:12:06,880 --> 01:12:10,840 not doing it alone. Thank you, Jonathan