WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.520 --> 00:00:07.280 You're listening to Redefining Energy. Your co hosts from Berlin Girard Reid and from 2 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:12.759 London Lawrence Sagalem, episode one on one, and today we're going to talk 3 00:00:12.800 --> 00:00:17.800 about high run, We're going to talk about carbon, we talk about emission 4 00:00:17.960 --> 00:00:22.440 innovation and guess what, back to the beginning right one on one, So 5 00:00:22.679 --> 00:00:29.679 number one again we have a special partner today, these our friends from Pixa 6 00:00:29.800 --> 00:00:36.520 Park. Pexa Park is a Swiss fintech starter that provides software and adversary services 7 00:00:36.560 --> 00:00:43.000 for vulnerable energy sales. The company's platform simplifies the process of PPAs for wind 8 00:00:43.200 --> 00:00:47.560 and solar power and picks up our tool enable portfolio management, lobal transaction, 9 00:00:47.640 --> 00:00:52.799 cost and risk control measures. Back to the show, solo arm, where 10 00:00:52.799 --> 00:00:55.799 do we start? While I think we're going to start by the basic when 11 00:00:55.799 --> 00:01:00.759 we talk about steeler First, every industrial sector uses steel still has a bit 12 00:01:00.759 --> 00:01:04.200 of a problem. It emits one point eight ton of CU two a ton 13 00:01:04.280 --> 00:01:08.959 of steel. And right now there's a lot of stick and carrot policies all 14 00:01:08.959 --> 00:01:14.359 over the place in the US, in the EU to decarbonize steel. But 15 00:01:14.560 --> 00:01:18.200 what we hear a lot is that, oh it's hard to decarbonize, so 16 00:01:18.560 --> 00:01:23.760 we wanted to see if somebody was not writing reports about it, but doing 17 00:01:23.799 --> 00:01:26.920 something about it well around. Actually the best thing to always get involved is 18 00:01:27.280 --> 00:01:32.760 the guys are at the cold face and somebody like us a towel the second 19 00:01:32.760 --> 00:01:36.319 biggest steel producer in the world. They are the guys that are at the 20 00:01:36.359 --> 00:01:38.920 cold face. So I think it's really good to get someone from somebody like 21 00:01:40.000 --> 00:01:42.959 them in and we managed to do it. Yeah, And what's quite interesting 22 00:01:44.400 --> 00:01:49.760 inside arsl Or is that their own venture capital fund called the x carb Innovation 23 00:01:49.879 --> 00:01:56.519 Fund, and through that fund, the invest tens of millions in the three 24 00:01:56.719 --> 00:02:04.159 major route of the carbonization of steel, which are clean electrification, direct reduction 25 00:02:04.239 --> 00:02:07.840 of iron, and smart carbon. So we're going to talk about all the 26 00:02:07.920 --> 00:02:15.319 future technologies like advanced nuclear, long duration storage, hydrogen, carbon capture utilization, 27 00:02:15.599 --> 00:02:20.680 and a lot of others long term intivation in the making. Who were 28 00:02:20.680 --> 00:02:22.800 bringing on, Maybe you can talk about who we're going to bring on. 29 00:02:22.960 --> 00:02:28.520 Yeah, our guest is the very talented Irina gobu Nova. She's vice president 30 00:02:29.000 --> 00:02:31.439 M and A at Arcelo Metal and she's the head of the x CAP Fund. 31 00:02:32.319 --> 00:02:36.639 And it's really key to have an investor with that dual background, so 32 00:02:36.879 --> 00:02:42.159 both VC industrial at the time where VC funding is down seventy five percent. 33 00:02:42.280 --> 00:02:45.039 Y're on there, Yeah, you're right, So let's have a listen. 34 00:02:45.439 --> 00:02:50.719 Irena, welcome back for the first time on our show. Hi. Hello, 35 00:02:50.960 --> 00:02:53.879 Hi, good to have you, to have you, good to have 36 00:02:53.960 --> 00:02:55.960 you, Thank you for having me. Let's jump right in here. Look, 37 00:02:57.000 --> 00:03:00.759 what we want to talk about is steel, the steel industry and how 38 00:03:00.800 --> 00:03:02.800 to decarbonize, because you look at it from a big picture, we all 39 00:03:02.800 --> 00:03:07.400 need steel, but you also need to burn energy to create that steel. 40 00:03:07.719 --> 00:03:12.080 I look at it as one of these hard to decarbonized sectors. You work 41 00:03:12.159 --> 00:03:15.240 for the second biggest steel producer in the world, so I'd love to hear 42 00:03:15.439 --> 00:03:21.280 your view on how the industry decarbonizers and what the future versions. Indeed, 43 00:03:21.319 --> 00:03:24.800 speaking of big pictures, steel is going to be so fundamental for the energy 44 00:03:24.879 --> 00:03:30.759 transition. And I don't know if you know that eighty percent of the components 45 00:03:30.800 --> 00:03:36.560 of the wind turbine and related infrastructure is made of steel. And of course 46 00:03:36.599 --> 00:03:38.919 you also need it for the solar panels, for electrical vehicles, for the 47 00:03:39.319 --> 00:03:45.199 lower carbon infrastructure buildings, etc. So as such, it's absolutely critical and 48 00:03:45.240 --> 00:03:50.120 absolutely fundamental to the energy transition. But then, of course there are challenges 49 00:03:50.159 --> 00:03:53.360 to your point about burning energy because most of the steel, the way it's 50 00:03:53.360 --> 00:03:59.800 currently produced results in a very significant carbon footprint. According to the World's Steel 51 00:03:59.800 --> 00:04:06.159 Association, I think it's close to one point eight tons of S two is 52 00:04:06.159 --> 00:04:11.639 currently emitted from the steel production per ton of steel. And you know, 53 00:04:11.639 --> 00:04:15.400 whenever I speak at the conferences, I always ask for two numbers. One 54 00:04:15.599 --> 00:04:19.920 is the global steel production annually, and again according to the World Steal Association, 55 00:04:20.000 --> 00:04:24.560 it's one point nine billion last year, so just below it to billion. 56 00:04:24.879 --> 00:04:27.720 And I just gave you the number of seal two immediate per ton of 57 00:04:27.720 --> 00:04:31.839 steel, so you can do the mass. And this translates into anyway between 58 00:04:31.879 --> 00:04:38.240 seven to eight percent of global seal two emissions, and that's quite a significant 59 00:04:38.319 --> 00:04:42.839 carbon footprint, which is a challenge, but I view it as an opportunity. 60 00:04:42.879 --> 00:04:46.079 It's an opportunity for us to really make an impact and find the way 61 00:04:46.120 --> 00:04:49.759 how we're going to decarbonize steel and how we're going to ensure that we get 62 00:04:49.759 --> 00:04:54.959 to the net zero in the most optimal pace. So then the question I 63 00:04:55.120 --> 00:05:00.040 ask is how do we tcabanized stal production as a group group, we pledge 64 00:05:00.120 --> 00:05:04.959 to become a carbon neutral by twenty fifty. We also have intermediate objective to 65 00:05:05.040 --> 00:05:11.399 reduce our emissions by thirty five percent in Europe by twenty thirty, which is 66 00:05:11.439 --> 00:05:16.240 again quite an ambitious target given the numbers I just quoted, and we have 67 00:05:16.439 --> 00:05:21.959 developed a very robust, very comprehensive roadmap how to get there. When I 68 00:05:23.040 --> 00:05:27.160 think about this big picture, it's like it's not just one solution, rights, 69 00:05:27.279 --> 00:05:30.439 It's like a giant puzzle where you need to put all these pieces of 70 00:05:30.480 --> 00:05:33.920 the puzzle together in order to get to this complete at zero picture. And 71 00:05:33.959 --> 00:05:38.839 I think on one axcess, it's really the whole value chain around still making 72 00:05:39.199 --> 00:05:44.199 and data access is all the its technology, it's economics, standards, its 73 00:05:44.279 --> 00:05:46.399 partnerships. So there are a number of things that need to come together in 74 00:05:46.519 --> 00:05:50.959 order to get there in a most efficient manner. So as a group, 75 00:05:51.240 --> 00:05:57.800 we are developing a number of technology pathways. There are three ways how you 76 00:05:57.839 --> 00:06:01.199 can produce low carbon steel. One and it's really, you know, one 77 00:06:01.199 --> 00:06:05.639 of the great credential of steel. It's infinitely recyclable. So if you recycle 78 00:06:05.720 --> 00:06:11.839 steel and then use renewable energies the energy source you can get to pretty much 79 00:06:12.720 --> 00:06:18.199 minimum covered footprint in the steel production. The second route that we're developing is 80 00:06:18.480 --> 00:06:26.199 innovative DRI. DRI stands for direct reduced iron so we use green hydrogen to 81 00:06:26.560 --> 00:06:30.319 reduce iron ore in the production, so we use green hydrogen instead of natural 82 00:06:30.399 --> 00:06:35.680 gas, and that's where innovative part comes. And the third way is what 83 00:06:35.720 --> 00:06:41.639 we call smart carbon, where we'll leverage where we utilize ccus in order to 84 00:06:41.920 --> 00:06:45.879 produce low carbon steel. There is of course also a fourth wave, which 85 00:06:45.920 --> 00:06:51.319 is direct electrolysis, and we also developing a project called cider vin where we're 86 00:06:51.319 --> 00:06:57.600 going to use electricity to reduce iron ore in the process. What I like 87 00:06:57.680 --> 00:07:01.240 about your approach are now you see those three ways and it's full of academic 88 00:07:01.279 --> 00:07:08.240 paper and research, but again these are just reports. And here you're putting 89 00:07:08.319 --> 00:07:13.920 money where your mouth is, which means you have this innovation fund at Arcelometer 90 00:07:14.120 --> 00:07:17.279 and you're in charge of it, and you are making investment in all those 91 00:07:17.519 --> 00:07:23.839 various options and sources. So rather than talk in a very general way, 92 00:07:23.959 --> 00:07:30.439 can we dive directly into the type of solution you're investing into and try to 93 00:07:30.480 --> 00:07:33.079 see what's in the short term, the medium term, the long term, 94 00:07:33.120 --> 00:07:38.480 So what do you want to start with before I start. I a couple 95 00:07:38.519 --> 00:07:42.639 of days ago, I was speaking to one of the venture capital fund managers 96 00:07:43.160 --> 00:07:45.879 when I told him that, you know, I have a strategic focus and 97 00:07:45.959 --> 00:07:48.680 his response was like, oh, well, then you are limited because you're 98 00:07:48.680 --> 00:07:53.360 only focus on still And I thought about it, and I thought, well, 99 00:07:53.360 --> 00:07:56.319 it's not that it limited is not the word you will use here because 100 00:07:56.360 --> 00:07:59.800 you really don't need to look at the whole value chain. And then, 101 00:08:00.160 --> 00:08:05.199 regardless of the technology pathway that you take in all these technology pathways that we 102 00:08:05.319 --> 00:08:09.759 talked about, you need clean energy. You need clean electricity, and that's 103 00:08:09.800 --> 00:08:15.079 the reason one of the domains of focus for us is renewable energy. So 104 00:08:15.360 --> 00:08:18.680 you know, from the fund perspective, Laurn, you're asking me about some 105 00:08:18.959 --> 00:08:22.319 specific examples. For instance, we made an investment in terror Power, which 106 00:08:22.360 --> 00:08:30.240 is an advanced nuclear company really working on developing this advanced nuclear reactors to produce 107 00:08:30.519 --> 00:08:35.159 energy. And I think nuclear energy has to be part of the renewable energy 108 00:08:35.559 --> 00:08:39.879 mixed. So that's one of the investments we made last year. And then 109 00:08:39.120 --> 00:08:45.080 I think the issue with the renewable energy is its intermittent nature, and that's 110 00:08:45.120 --> 00:08:48.200 the reason I remember in one of your episodes you made the statement saying that 111 00:08:48.320 --> 00:08:52.759 storage is the name of the game, and I couldn't agree more. Our 112 00:08:52.879 --> 00:09:00.360 still facilities required twenty four seven power supply, and we can't just rely on 113 00:09:00.759 --> 00:09:05.120 energy when the sunshines and the wind blows, and therefore we need this consistent 114 00:09:05.240 --> 00:09:09.399 supply and storage is so paramountly important. So one of our investment is in 115 00:09:09.480 --> 00:09:16.240 a company called Form Energy. Form is developing a very interesting energy solution. 116 00:09:16.399 --> 00:09:20.679 It's an iron air battery and if you look at the liberalized cost of storage 117 00:09:20.759 --> 00:09:26.399 is one hundred times cheaper than lithium based solutions, just because you know, 118 00:09:26.480 --> 00:09:31.840 iron is one of the most abundant and durable materials and like I said, 119 00:09:31.840 --> 00:09:37.639 it's infinitely recyclable. So therefore Forms solution is really based on something which is 120 00:09:37.840 --> 00:09:43.639 low cost, abundant and potentially offers a great solution for the greed. When 121 00:09:43.679 --> 00:09:46.399 it comes to Form, it's not just plants, it's you know, you're 122 00:09:46.399 --> 00:09:52.279 getting industrial now, So you're soon going to have a factory in the US. 123 00:09:52.159 --> 00:09:58.240 Absolutely. In May Form Energy broke ground on their first manufacturing facility in 124 00:09:58.320 --> 00:10:03.039 Birdon in West Virginia. So the construction is going to begin this year and 125 00:10:03.159 --> 00:10:09.240 the plan for them to start manufacturing actually as early as next year. So 126 00:10:09.320 --> 00:10:13.840 it's pretty impressive given the challenge around the energy storage, the low cost long 127 00:10:13.919 --> 00:10:18.159 duration energy storage. So you absolutely right, it's happening quite fun. So 128 00:10:18.399 --> 00:10:24.519 it's four day storage hundred hours, because of course Leja Mayon is very good 129 00:10:24.519 --> 00:10:28.840 within say two four five at probably eight hours, but here we're talking about 130 00:10:30.360 --> 00:10:35.919 hundred hours, so that changes everything. And even if the roundtree proficiency is 131 00:10:35.919 --> 00:10:39.159 not as good as Likamyon, I mean, the cost are solo. It's 132 00:10:37.960 --> 00:10:43.000 it's a totally different vision of energy storage. Absolutely everyone's saying, now we 133 00:10:43.039 --> 00:10:48.320 need long duration energy storage, a multiday seasonal storage, and Form offers exactly 134 00:10:48.360 --> 00:10:56.399 that. And again specifically it also partnered with Excel Energy already and Progrounds and 135 00:10:56.559 --> 00:11:00.960 the first manufacturing facility. I'll send you the link to the life recording of 136 00:11:01.000 --> 00:11:05.320 this groundbreak and ceremonial, which is quite impressive. I really the one thing 137 00:11:05.600 --> 00:11:09.240 I'm really enjoying the conversation because I have a very clear view, which is 138 00:11:09.519 --> 00:11:15.159 that we can sort out this climate dilemma and we'll do a true innovation. 139 00:11:15.200 --> 00:11:18.799 And when I hear of Form and other businesses like this. It's just it's 140 00:11:18.799 --> 00:11:22.200 the story that we need to get out to the world as well, that 141 00:11:22.519 --> 00:11:26.240 it's a positive story that this isn't it's not just about deca it really is. 142 00:11:26.240 --> 00:11:30.600 There is technologies here which are also going to enable you to I think, 143 00:11:30.639 --> 00:11:33.120 to be able to do things at lower costs going forward or how do 144 00:11:33.159 --> 00:11:37.000 you see this? Absolutely and this is something I'm so passionate about. It's 145 00:11:37.039 --> 00:11:43.279 really to identify some of those cutting edge technologies that can support our energy transition. 146 00:11:43.320 --> 00:11:46.879 And you're absolutely right. I think for Manage is one of those. 147 00:11:48.159 --> 00:11:52.279 And I think generally, you know, as we look at our decorbanization during 148 00:11:52.360 --> 00:11:58.960 innovation is going to be key. So maybe before I continue speaking about our 149 00:11:58.039 --> 00:12:03.639 investments and knowledge is one of the point I wanted to makes. Since we 150 00:12:03.759 --> 00:12:09.879 launched the funds, more and more we appreciate the uniqueness of our approach because 151 00:12:09.919 --> 00:12:15.879 we had the company with the largest global footprints present in North America and South 152 00:12:15.919 --> 00:12:20.440 America and Europe and India. We have joint ventures in China, so it's 153 00:12:20.480 --> 00:12:24.399 truly global footprints. We have integrated operations, we have operations across the whole 154 00:12:24.480 --> 00:12:31.360 value chain of stillmaking, and then the excitement comes from the complexity of the 155 00:12:31.480 --> 00:12:35.840 challenge. But then looking at this innovation and really meeting some of the most 156 00:12:37.000 --> 00:12:43.240 brilliant and bright innovators and startup companies, it's actually quite exciting. And I've 157 00:12:43.240 --> 00:12:48.159 seen this excitement translating the whole company and how everyone is now focused on working 158 00:12:48.159 --> 00:12:52.519 with some of those technologies and some of them startups. So I think this 159 00:12:52.639 --> 00:12:56.679 is just something that makes us unique in the sense that we also have a 160 00:12:56.720 --> 00:13:01.519 platform to try and test those technologists, to publish the technical viability and most 161 00:13:01.559 --> 00:13:07.720 importantly the industrial scalability. But now let's pivot to one of ja than I 162 00:13:07.039 --> 00:13:18.039 favorite subject, the h word hydrogen. And so first explain how does the 163 00:13:18.120 --> 00:13:22.159 hydrogen in thescal process works in terms of the carbonization a type of technology you're 164 00:13:22.279 --> 00:13:28.960 implementing, and how does it work hydrogen. One of the technology pathways that 165 00:13:28.000 --> 00:13:33.039 we are focused on is DRI based on hydrogen, and we call it innovative 166 00:13:33.120 --> 00:13:39.519 DRI. And the word innovative comes from the fact that DRI is actually known 167 00:13:39.720 --> 00:13:45.159 process. Right you can reduce irono directly by blowing natural gas, and there 168 00:13:45.200 --> 00:13:50.120 are facilities existed in the world that in the process of doing that. But 169 00:13:50.240 --> 00:13:54.840 then the innovative comes from the point that you bring hydrogen, so you replace 170 00:13:54.919 --> 00:13:58.600 the cooking call. Is that correct? To clarify, In blast furnace you 171 00:13:58.720 --> 00:14:03.639 use coke and call to reduce iron ore. In DRI, you use natural 172 00:14:03.759 --> 00:14:11.720 gas to blow and reduce iron ore. And the intention with hydrogen based DRI 173 00:14:11.159 --> 00:14:18.440 is that you will eventually use hydrogen instead of natural gas to reduce your iron 174 00:14:18.440 --> 00:14:22.320 ore in the process. But of course for that you need hydrogen infrastructure, 175 00:14:22.360 --> 00:14:28.519 you need the valuability of green hydrogen. So that's something that is quite challenging 176 00:14:28.600 --> 00:14:31.320 now. But I know that we are working on that and a lot of 177 00:14:31.600 --> 00:14:35.200 other companies working on that as well, and we are looking at some of 178 00:14:35.240 --> 00:14:41.320 the most interesting technologies that can we can use to produce green hydrogen. The 179 00:14:41.519 --> 00:14:46.000 issue of the challenge rather is really around economics, and that's the reason. 180 00:14:46.080 --> 00:14:50.679 One of the companies that got us excited was company called Age supprou It's an 181 00:14:50.799 --> 00:14:56.519 Israeli startup developing a novel technology to produce hydrogen without using the membrane, and 182 00:14:56.679 --> 00:15:01.360 membrane is one of the most costly components in the production of green hydrogen. 183 00:15:01.879 --> 00:15:07.799 So instead it's a two step process to produce green hydrogen, which effectively increases 184 00:15:07.840 --> 00:15:13.440 the efficiency to above nine. And it's also going to reduce the cost of 185 00:15:13.480 --> 00:15:20.200 green hydrogen production to below two dollars or even eventually close to one dollar per 186 00:15:20.240 --> 00:15:26.279 kilograph. Wow. So we have hydrogen and it's a process that you understand. 187 00:15:26.360 --> 00:15:28.360 But here, as you said, the economics, and of course, 188 00:15:28.399 --> 00:15:33.279 if you reach the one dollar pekilo or pakilo, now when I look at 189 00:15:33.320 --> 00:15:39.039 the Platts assessment, where are more at nine dollar perko? So do you 190 00:15:39.039 --> 00:15:41.919 think it's up to you to decrease the price of hydrogen or you're just telling 191 00:15:41.960 --> 00:15:46.080 to all those suppliers guys, I take as much at rogen as you can 192 00:15:46.159 --> 00:15:52.519 deliver me at two pekilo, but eight or nine perkilo go us for subsidies. 193 00:15:52.480 --> 00:15:56.320 Absolutely right. So I think if you look at the price or the 194 00:15:56.399 --> 00:16:00.840 cost to produce green hydrogen now is far from where each would be for us 195 00:16:00.960 --> 00:16:06.360 to make economic sense. And I don't think it's just one factor that will 196 00:16:06.399 --> 00:16:08.360 get us there. I think it's a number of things that need to put 197 00:16:08.360 --> 00:16:12.679 together. I think initially I was referring to a puzzle where you need a 198 00:16:12.679 --> 00:16:15.639 lot of pieces put together. I think that's exactly the same. Here. 199 00:16:15.720 --> 00:16:21.960 You still have the gap which Bill Gates calls green premium, So that's really 200 00:16:22.039 --> 00:16:26.480 difference between your fossil equivalent and your green equivalent. And since I start looking 201 00:16:26.480 --> 00:16:30.840 at hydrogen, I can see the gap to an extent was reduced. And 202 00:16:30.919 --> 00:16:37.120 given the technology advancements, given a policy the carbon tax, you know in 203 00:16:37.200 --> 00:16:40.720 the future. Of course, you know once you scale some of those projects, 204 00:16:41.080 --> 00:16:44.480 the cost will also go down. But nevertheless, the gap is still 205 00:16:44.600 --> 00:16:49.159 huge and more efforts are required to really bridge it and get it to where 206 00:16:49.200 --> 00:16:52.720 it should be. Can I ask you, because you know, if I 207 00:16:52.799 --> 00:16:57.120 understand when you recycle seal, you use these electrics right to use electricity. 208 00:16:57.519 --> 00:17:03.839 Do you see any possibility I've been able to use electricity for raw seal going 209 00:17:03.880 --> 00:17:07.680 forward, or do you have to go the route of hydrogen. I suppose 210 00:17:07.720 --> 00:17:11.480 that's a question I'm asking. Sure, this is a great question about electrification. 211 00:17:11.680 --> 00:17:15.400 And I think we are, as I mentioned, working on a direct 212 00:17:15.440 --> 00:17:22.480 electrolysis of iron ore process called sidering within our cellomtal and we also actually made 213 00:17:22.480 --> 00:17:26.400 an investment. One of our latest investment was in the company called Boston Metal. 214 00:17:26.799 --> 00:17:33.680 Boston is working on the molten oxite electrolysis process to produce low carbon steel. 215 00:17:34.200 --> 00:17:40.000 And this is the process wherein the cell you have the nodes which is 216 00:17:40.039 --> 00:17:45.319 immersed in an electrolyte containing iron ore and then it's electrified and then when the 217 00:17:45.359 --> 00:17:51.519 cell heats to one thousand and six hundred degrees, the electron split the bones 218 00:17:51.559 --> 00:17:56.680 in the iron ore and this results in the clean and really high purity liquid 219 00:17:56.720 --> 00:18:00.519 metal that can be used directly to produce steel. Can I also go also 220 00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:04.240 that there's another alternative. And the other alternative is you keep tuing what you're 221 00:18:04.240 --> 00:18:08.279 doing, but you just take the carbon and storage. So how do you 222 00:18:08.319 --> 00:18:12.680 see that as an alternative going forward? If you take some of our existing 223 00:18:12.720 --> 00:18:17.599 facilities And actually I will give an example in a second, but we are 224 00:18:17.680 --> 00:18:22.559 developing a smart carbon roots and this is the route that utilizes the usage of 225 00:18:22.640 --> 00:18:29.000 CCUS. And the example I wanted to give is our pilot plant in Belgium 226 00:18:29.240 --> 00:18:33.160 called still Anoll, where first of all we also use biomass, so we 227 00:18:33.279 --> 00:18:38.880 take wood waste and then through the refection we produce biocoll which will then replace 228 00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:44.599 the fossil call in the blast furnace. And we captured the off gases from 229 00:18:44.640 --> 00:18:49.839 the blast furnace and using the bio fermentation technology of another portfolio company of ours 230 00:18:49.880 --> 00:18:56.599 called Plants Attack, we produced bio ethanol and we have actually recently inaugurated it. 231 00:18:56.680 --> 00:19:00.839 So it was December last year when the integration and of still an all 232 00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:04.880 took place. And this is really an exciting technology where it's a great example 233 00:19:04.960 --> 00:19:10.440 of circularity where you start with waste and you produce by a fuel for transportation. 234 00:19:11.440 --> 00:19:17.319 You pronounced the name Lanzettack, which is for everyone working in the combanization 235 00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:21.920 extraordinary and promising, but a bit of a black box. I think they 236 00:19:21.920 --> 00:19:26.599 are listed now. They raised billions of dollar with great investors, so I'm 237 00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:34.440 sure they've done due diligence. Do I understand that they're like bacteria or microbes, 238 00:19:34.519 --> 00:19:37.720 I don't know what, and they just goggle the CU two and transform 239 00:19:37.720 --> 00:19:44.079 it into flow sustainable eleviation fuel. Can you explain a bit what this whole 240 00:19:44.160 --> 00:19:45.759 thing is? Did you explain it pretty well? Well? First of all, 241 00:19:45.759 --> 00:19:51.559 they didn't raise billions, just to clarify, but they indeed listed recently 242 00:19:51.599 --> 00:19:56.640 on NASDAG and it's a very interesting company with a great technology. But you're 243 00:19:56.720 --> 00:20:00.200 right in a way that you know you have the microbes gobble, like you 244 00:20:00.279 --> 00:20:07.240 said, some of those we recycled gases to produce biofuels. And you know, 245 00:20:07.279 --> 00:20:11.279 they actually already have a number of commercial plants. They have a commercial 246 00:20:11.359 --> 00:20:18.000 scale plants in China to convert waste gas from steel mills into ethanol for transportation 247 00:20:18.160 --> 00:20:22.680 fuel blending. And then of course you know I just mentioned our project in 248 00:20:22.759 --> 00:20:27.279 Belgium, but that's exactly the technology. So you have the bio fermentations. 249 00:20:27.400 --> 00:20:33.119 It's like I think the company itself comparing it to brewery, where you'd say 250 00:20:33.279 --> 00:20:38.599 the gasses from the steel militerations and then through this bio fermentation process you can 251 00:20:38.720 --> 00:20:45.559 produce biofuel. Well, thank you for this Panohama of the different technology. 252 00:20:47.400 --> 00:20:49.960 So that's a tough question. But which one you see like in the short 253 00:20:51.079 --> 00:20:52.880 term, the medium term, the long term, because I guess they have 254 00:20:52.960 --> 00:20:57.559 different horizons. You're right, they do have different horizons. I think, 255 00:20:57.559 --> 00:21:02.799 you know, we're working on all of those solutions and parallel some will be 256 00:21:02.920 --> 00:21:07.119 radio for commercial deployment and commercial productions sooner rather than later. I think. 257 00:21:07.160 --> 00:21:12.359 On the technology pathways for steal, obviously you can and we are readio recycling 258 00:21:12.680 --> 00:21:17.039 this steal and if you use renewable energy. For this, you will get 259 00:21:17.160 --> 00:21:23.119 to pretty much the minimum carbon foodprint now, and I think direct electrolysis is 260 00:21:23.119 --> 00:21:26.519 a little bit further ahead, so you need to get the technology to the 261 00:21:26.599 --> 00:21:33.680 necessary maturity before you will get to the commercialization. Boston Metal intends to produce 262 00:21:33.000 --> 00:21:37.799 still using day technology by twenty twenty six. Just to give your perspective on 263 00:21:37.839 --> 00:21:41.839 the timeframe. Obviously, in case of form energy we discussed, they just 264 00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:47.680 proground in their first manufacturing facility, which will be readied then for commercial scale 265 00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:52.720 production by the end of the first production by the end of twenty twenty four, 266 00:21:52.759 --> 00:21:55.680 so they just you know, you have different time horizon, but we 267 00:21:55.680 --> 00:22:00.400 are working on all of those solutions in parallel as we go. Going back 268 00:22:00.440 --> 00:22:04.440 to the way you work, So you've got this innovation fund called XCARB in 269 00:22:04.480 --> 00:22:08.799 which we invest, but also you are looking at everything that's going on so 270 00:22:08.960 --> 00:22:15.000 even earlier stage, and you have put this thing called the accelerator. So 271 00:22:15.119 --> 00:22:18.079 can you explain a bit how it works in relation to the innovation fund. 272 00:22:19.079 --> 00:22:25.599 Since we launched the funds, I was actually quite impressed by how many companies 273 00:22:25.640 --> 00:22:32.319 have approached us with different solutions. We got bombarded by various proposals and various 274 00:22:32.359 --> 00:22:37.119 initiatives, and lots of startup and early face companies reached out to us seeing 275 00:22:37.160 --> 00:22:41.480 if they can work and if we can test their technology. And at some 276 00:22:41.559 --> 00:22:44.279 points I said, okay, let's let us just take a step back and 277 00:22:44.880 --> 00:22:48.160 think what are we ask you know, what sort of challenges we are facing, 278 00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:51.640 what are the most present challenges? How we can find a solution. 279 00:22:51.720 --> 00:22:55.759 So what we did, together with our research and development and our technical team, 280 00:22:56.119 --> 00:23:00.799 really brainstormed about the key areas of focus. So we have identified seven 281 00:23:00.920 --> 00:23:07.480 technology domains and we decided to launch an accelerator to attract the companies to provide 282 00:23:07.480 --> 00:23:15.279 those solutions in those technology domains. We've received more than hundred applications within the 283 00:23:15.319 --> 00:23:19.319 first week of launching the accelerator. It's quite impressive again, you know, 284 00:23:19.400 --> 00:23:25.960 to the point how innovative, how many innovative solutions are there, and how 285 00:23:26.079 --> 00:23:30.240 much excitement is there. And then we've met a lot of interesting companies. 286 00:23:32.039 --> 00:23:36.720 And I hope that by the time this episode is out, we have announced 287 00:23:36.759 --> 00:23:41.920 the winner of the accelerator and we going to launch a new one. But 288 00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:45.519 it's indeed, you know, we're looking at some of the early stage companies 289 00:23:45.640 --> 00:23:49.920 more like serious A or even sed level, which offer some of the interesting 290 00:23:51.039 --> 00:23:55.119 solutions for our challenges, some of the challenges. I'll give you an example. 291 00:23:55.200 --> 00:24:00.240 For instance, Gerard was speaking about electrical art furnace. By product of 292 00:24:00.279 --> 00:24:04.400 the electrical rt fhernace production is electrical r furnace slack, and we're trying to 293 00:24:04.480 --> 00:24:10.720 see if there is a solution a technology to process the slack to use it 294 00:24:10.799 --> 00:24:17.359 as something valuable like an alternative cement material. So solutions like that we're always 295 00:24:17.400 --> 00:24:21.160 on the lookouts for. So I really then, as was last question, 296 00:24:21.200 --> 00:24:23.599 really, how are you going to succeed in decarbonizing still going forward? I 297 00:24:23.640 --> 00:24:30.200 mean that's the real, real question. I'm an optimistic person by nature, 298 00:24:30.279 --> 00:24:33.440 so that answer that this question will always be yes again. You know, 299 00:24:34.319 --> 00:24:38.799 in the beginning of the podcast, I was thinking about the complex challenge we 300 00:24:38.839 --> 00:24:44.480 are facing and how it's really giant puzzle that we need to resolve. Having 301 00:24:44.519 --> 00:24:48.680 said that, we are so open for innovation, we are so open to 302 00:24:48.920 --> 00:24:53.799 partner with various stakeholders, I think there is clear determination from all the stakeholders 303 00:24:53.920 --> 00:25:00.359 in the process. I think our company is pretty much leading the industry during 304 00:25:00.400 --> 00:25:03.359 its at zero, So I'm positive we will succeed. I don't want to 305 00:25:03.440 --> 00:25:10.000 undermine the efforts to do so, but the answer is definitely yes. It's 306 00:25:10.039 --> 00:25:12.279 just still the mass. There is no other way. Well, you're in 307 00:25:12.359 --> 00:25:15.880 now. It was great to have you on the show for this message of 308 00:25:17.039 --> 00:25:21.799 optimism. It's not just buying the sky. It's really hard work, a 309 00:25:21.799 --> 00:25:27.720 lot of engineering and testing and the fact that you are putting the group's facilities 310 00:25:29.519 --> 00:25:34.920 at the service of this innovation to implement and understand the technological issues but also 311 00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:41.680 the economics around it. It's really great to see some silver lining around the 312 00:25:41.920 --> 00:25:45.799 steel sector and not just always reports who are complaining and you are doing your 313 00:25:45.839 --> 00:25:49.319 part. Thank you very much. Thank you, Larn, thank you Jan, 314 00:25:49.720 --> 00:25:52.960 thank you for having it. Thank you very much. So John, 315 00:25:53.119 --> 00:25:57.160 what's your take? Oh my god, Well, listen, it's tough to 316 00:25:57.200 --> 00:26:02.240 take up and I steal the industry. It is the toughest thing of all. 317 00:26:02.279 --> 00:26:04.839 I think it's going to take decades, I think to do it unless 318 00:26:06.160 --> 00:26:11.119 there is significant innovation, which is where they actually come in, which is 319 00:26:11.119 --> 00:26:14.440 they're actually going and investing in this innovation, And that gives me quite a 320 00:26:14.440 --> 00:26:18.079 lot of hope. Yeah, but I believe that it's going to advance at 321 00:26:18.119 --> 00:26:23.960 the time that the old technology goes obsolete. So that transition is, let's 322 00:26:23.960 --> 00:26:29.000 face it, it's not going to be as fast as in the transportation sector 323 00:26:29.200 --> 00:26:32.440 or in delictricy sector. It's going to take a lot of time. But 324 00:26:32.480 --> 00:26:36.559 the technologies out there, which is good. The economics they're still trying. 325 00:26:36.799 --> 00:26:41.359 They don't know if those technologies is going to be really economics or if there 326 00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:45.839 is this famous green premium that gets talk a lot about. And the question 327 00:26:45.000 --> 00:26:48.400 is if there's a premium, who's going to put the bill for that decobanization. 328 00:26:48.880 --> 00:26:51.920 Well, lets and I go back and say another thing, which is 329 00:26:51.960 --> 00:26:55.400 I think it is all about innovation in those areas because the reality and you 330 00:26:55.480 --> 00:26:57.039 also said another thing which I agree totally on, which is it's going to 331 00:26:57.160 --> 00:27:00.480 just take time. And the real and it's going to take time is because 332 00:27:00.599 --> 00:27:03.480 you know, if you want to go and get green hydrogen in there or 333 00:27:03.559 --> 00:27:07.960 pink hydrogen, you're going to have to build a huge amount of generation capacity 334 00:27:07.000 --> 00:27:10.920 to actually get that hydroene in the first place. And you could say that 335 00:27:10.960 --> 00:27:14.720 there's a there's other priorities for that, renewables and nuclear in the next years 336 00:27:14.720 --> 00:27:19.039 because it's much I think it's much easier to decarbonize the automobile and heat it 337 00:27:19.160 --> 00:27:23.079 is. And what worries me a bit about hydrogen is the fact that it's 338 00:27:23.200 --> 00:27:27.839 very clear to Aslo on the steel industry that they can absorb a huge amount 339 00:27:27.880 --> 00:27:33.519 of green hydrogen at say two dollar pokilo. But when I saw the other 340 00:27:33.559 --> 00:27:38.799 day the price of hydrogen in California, it's thirty dollar pokilo. So we 341 00:27:38.880 --> 00:27:42.839 have a real pricing problem around hydrogen. Yeah, we do, we do, 342 00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:48.799 we do. Decarbonizing hydrogen is incredibly tough, let alone actually building up 343 00:27:48.880 --> 00:27:53.240 new green hydrogen or pink hydrogen capacity, right, it's very tough. So 344 00:27:53.319 --> 00:28:00.880 we have a pathway to decarbonize the steel industry. We have an old palette 345 00:28:00.880 --> 00:28:06.759 of possible short, medium term, and long term solutions. But let's not 346 00:28:06.839 --> 00:28:10.680 fool ourselves. We are going at a snail pace, and I don't see 347 00:28:10.960 --> 00:28:12.799 what really can we do to make it faster. So it's a bit of 348 00:28:12.839 --> 00:28:17.839 a bitter sweet conclusion. I suppose the only thing that you can do to 349 00:28:17.880 --> 00:28:19.720 speed it up really is to put in carbon taxes. And I mean, 350 00:28:19.880 --> 00:28:25.200 sorry, what I mean about this is you need to move to carbon adjustment, 351 00:28:25.559 --> 00:28:27.039 border taxes. I think we have to go that way. That's the 352 00:28:27.079 --> 00:28:30.039 only thing you can do, right because otherwise, you know what ends up 353 00:28:30.039 --> 00:28:33.640 happening is your industry just leaves. It's not easy, no, it's it's 354 00:28:33.640 --> 00:28:40.680 hard to decarbonize that simple as a right to decarbonize, expensive to decarbonize along 355 00:28:40.759 --> 00:28:45.680 to decarbonize, but we can becabonized. So some people like you are in 356 00:28:45.799 --> 00:28:48.559 charge and it's good to know. Yeah, and again I do I hope 357 00:28:48.759 --> 00:28:51.559 if you want to speed it up. The other thing you have to do 358 00:28:51.680 --> 00:28:55.079 is just hope that there's going to be technological innovation and breakthroughs. And the 359 00:28:55.160 --> 00:28:59.000 one thing that we've seen laur On the last ten years, it's massive innovation. 360 00:28:59.200 --> 00:29:02.400 Rice. That's what gets me positive or keeps you positive. Right, 361 00:29:02.440 --> 00:29:06.640 good, good good. So we want to thank our partner picks A Park 362 00:29:07.000 --> 00:29:10.119 John. Do you want to say something about our new media pack? Yeah, 363 00:29:10.160 --> 00:29:12.240 So what myself in Lauron would like to do is just we're looking to 364 00:29:12.240 --> 00:29:17.599 expand the podcast and partner up with companies. If you're interested to do that. 365 00:29:17.680 --> 00:29:19.720 We have a new email address that you can reach out to AUSUS. 366 00:29:21.119 --> 00:29:26.279 The new email address is info at Redefining dash energy dot com very simple and 367 00:29:26.279 --> 00:29:30.880 I try to create on the website, but my website is hard to decarbanize. 368 00:29:32.319 --> 00:29:37.680 It takes a bit of time. Yeah okay Jah. Always a pleasure 369 00:29:37.839 --> 00:29:41.119 and talk to you in two weeks time. Look forward to it. Thank 370 00:29:41.160 --> 00:29:45.359 you for listening to Redefining Energy. Don't forget to rate the show and subscribe 371 00:29:45.480 --> 00:29:51.519 on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or the platform of your choice.