WEBVTT 1 00:00:30.079 --> 00:00:33.840 Welcome to mid Rats with sal from Commander Salamander, an Eagle one from Eagle 2 00:00:33.880 --> 00:00:38.840 Speak at Seer Shore your home for a discussion of national security issues and all 3 00:00:38.840 --> 00:00:45.159 things maritime, and welcome aboard everybody. We're glad to have you with us 4 00:00:45.159 --> 00:00:49.840 today for another edition of mid Rats, and because we are alive this week 5 00:00:49.880 --> 00:00:53.560 after being absent for a little bit, I want to remind everybody that if 6 00:00:53.600 --> 00:00:56.840 you scroll down to the bottom of the show page, that is where you 7 00:00:56.840 --> 00:01:00.520 will find the chat room. And we'd like for everybody to go ahead and 8 00:01:00.719 --> 00:01:04.920 scroll down there and join with some of the usual suspects, and if you 9 00:01:04.920 --> 00:01:10.040 have some comments about the show you'd like to share, or even some questions 10 00:01:10.040 --> 00:01:11.719 that you would like for us to address our guests or in the course of 11 00:01:11.760 --> 00:01:17.719 the hour, that's a great place to do it. And let's go ahead 12 00:01:17.719 --> 00:01:21.519 and just dive right into the show. Really looking forward today because we're going 13 00:01:21.599 --> 00:01:25.920 to talk about a name that whether you're a new power guy or a submarine 14 00:01:26.079 --> 00:01:29.920 or not, you know the name. There are a few naval leaders that 15 00:01:29.959 --> 00:01:36.760 have had such a legation for so long in the United States Navy, as 16 00:01:36.879 --> 00:01:41.879 Admiral Hyman G. Rickover, and if you talk to, I'm a man 17 00:01:41.920 --> 00:01:46.200 of a certain age, but if you talk to any submarine officer and they're 18 00:01:46.480 --> 00:01:51.959 above their late fifties to sixty, they're probably going to have a personal story 19 00:01:52.519 --> 00:01:57.200 about Admiral Rickover. Are just one person removed from Admiral Rickover, and as 20 00:01:57.239 --> 00:02:00.400 a result, he has developed a certain aura, maybe some of it deserve, 21 00:02:00.560 --> 00:02:04.680 maybe some of it isn't, and a certain reputation in our navy, 22 00:02:05.000 --> 00:02:14.039 and not just about his role in creating the nuclear submarine and the nuclear surface 23 00:02:14.120 --> 00:02:19.879 force that we have today, but a lot of the culture around it. 24 00:02:19.919 --> 00:02:23.360 But there are other parts of the individual, as are anybody else, that 25 00:02:23.599 --> 00:02:28.039 maybe it not be as well known. And we have an opportunity today to 26 00:02:29.400 --> 00:02:35.800 talk to one of the co editors of the primary source, and that's Admiral 27 00:02:35.879 --> 00:02:40.199 Rickover himself. And our guest is no surprise guest to anybody who's been with 28 00:02:40.680 --> 00:02:45.120 us at mid Rats for a while. He is one of our plank owner 29 00:02:45.560 --> 00:02:52.240 guests, Claude Barbee, who with Samuel lemnios Co edited a book that's just 30 00:02:52.360 --> 00:02:54.439 out now and you can find a link to it on the show page called 31 00:02:54.960 --> 00:03:00.879 Rickover Uncensored. Claude, Welcome back. To midrack. Thanks, gentlemen, 32 00:03:00.919 --> 00:03:06.560 I appreciate being back on and for your listeners. If I miss a date 33 00:03:06.840 --> 00:03:09.400 or anything here in the next hour, or I mute myself for just a 34 00:03:09.400 --> 00:03:13.240 second, I'm fighting a head cold, so I may have to sneeze a 35 00:03:13.240 --> 00:03:15.960 coff and I'll try to spare you from that. So thanks for having me 36 00:03:15.000 --> 00:03:20.400 on. Well, like all great naval professionals, you know how to fight 37 00:03:20.520 --> 00:03:25.840 hurt, and we'll start off with an easy one here is always easy when 38 00:03:25.840 --> 00:03:29.360 you're bringing on a book. But I want to add a little twist to 39 00:03:29.439 --> 00:03:31.800 it is I want to ask you just to kick things off and kind of 40 00:03:31.840 --> 00:03:36.639 set the table for everybody. Tell us a little bit about your book. 41 00:03:36.719 --> 00:03:40.439 Last time we had you on, you were talking about your latest novel in 42 00:03:40.439 --> 00:03:46.319 the Connor Stark series of the Philippine Pact. Little point there for the latest 43 00:03:46.360 --> 00:03:50.159 novel. But this is a work of nonfiction, and I know as a 44 00:03:50.319 --> 00:03:55.840 historian and for those that like to read nonfiction, it's really exciting because what 45 00:03:55.879 --> 00:04:01.039 we're working here with is we're working with primary sources. So you didn't author 46 00:04:01.159 --> 00:04:06.800 this book, you co edited it, and it is Admiral Rickover in his 47 00:04:08.080 --> 00:04:13.560 own words from his private paper. So what else can you tell us about 48 00:04:13.840 --> 00:04:18.120 the book, And also tell me listen a little bit how you came to 49 00:04:18.120 --> 00:04:26.399 get access to this body of work. Sure, let's see. The book 50 00:04:26.480 --> 00:04:31.160 itself incorporates the years nineteen twenty nine, when the first letter is available from 51 00:04:31.160 --> 00:04:36.800 this collection, to just about a year before his passing. About ninety five 52 00:04:36.879 --> 00:04:43.120 percent of the documents that were transcribed and are available in the book are his. 53 00:04:43.279 --> 00:04:46.040 There's a few others that I thought were important, things from presidents, 54 00:04:47.160 --> 00:04:51.879 you know, when he was captain and did not promote to admiral. An 55 00:04:51.879 --> 00:04:58.680 interesting short letter from a young Senator Jack Kennedy, who expressed interest. These 56 00:04:59.319 --> 00:05:04.120 documents incorporate his letters to his first wife, Ruth, especially in nineteen thirties. 57 00:05:05.000 --> 00:05:12.519 They include transcriptions of telephone conversations in the nineteen seventies and eighties, and 58 00:05:12.600 --> 00:05:18.040 you could still do such things. They include letters from a lot of it 59 00:05:18.120 --> 00:05:24.160 was fan mail. He was extraordinary at publicity for the Navy. I know 60 00:05:24.199 --> 00:05:28.240 people said that he may have been self serving, but the fact is people 61 00:05:28.360 --> 00:05:33.439 knew the Navy, they knew the nuclear Navy because of Admiral Ricover. There 62 00:05:33.560 --> 00:05:38.439 are some surprising things in there too. You always heard. I mean, 63 00:05:38.480 --> 00:05:45.000 I think since we're all of a certain age of these famous interviews that happened 64 00:05:45.040 --> 00:05:50.399 between Rickover and Mick Shipman, who were designated for the Nuclear Navy, and 65 00:05:50.639 --> 00:05:55.279 the first time I came across a transcript of one of the interviews, I 66 00:05:55.319 --> 00:06:00.439 said, this is no longer just hearsay. And as a historian, certainly 67 00:06:00.600 --> 00:06:04.600 oral histories are important and people remembering, but here was clear evidence of what 68 00:06:04.839 --> 00:06:09.959 he was asking them. And I'd say there's probably about a dozen or so 69 00:06:10.079 --> 00:06:15.399 of from at least in the papers that I saw, So that's and also 70 00:06:15.519 --> 00:06:19.959 memoratave for the record. That's very important because at each major meeting, from 71 00:06:20.079 --> 00:06:28.920 say nineteen fifty two nineteen eighty two or so, after every major meeting, 72 00:06:29.399 --> 00:06:32.879 he's writing a memo of what transpired, who was there, what was said, 73 00:06:33.600 --> 00:06:39.279 and he kept it. Now, there have been about nine books about 74 00:06:39.360 --> 00:06:44.720 Rickover, and they're all good. Each author brings their expertise that's really important. 75 00:06:45.120 --> 00:06:49.439 However, I think the two that are most applicable are the ones by 76 00:06:49.560 --> 00:06:56.639 Francis Duncan, who was who was the official biographer of Admiral Rickover and spent 77 00:06:56.720 --> 00:07:00.199 the most time with him. So there are some notes in there that that 78 00:07:00.519 --> 00:07:04.120 Duncan wrights that I thought were also important to put in there, because then 79 00:07:04.160 --> 00:07:09.079 you start to see what was Francis Duncan thinking when he was writing this, 80 00:07:09.279 --> 00:07:13.040 for example, and in the contract with Francis Duncan, I saw what the 81 00:07:13.120 --> 00:07:17.800 limitations were of what he could and he couldn't write about. Ask so where 82 00:07:17.839 --> 00:07:21.399 did I find this? I should probably I want to mention Sam my co 83 00:07:21.560 --> 00:07:28.279 editor on this verse, because Sam is an incredible young academic scholar. He 84 00:07:28.399 --> 00:07:32.160 was the assistant archivist who at the Naval Academy and he's now with another organization, 85 00:07:32.600 --> 00:07:35.720 and I think he's got some little promise and I wanted I asked Sam 86 00:07:35.720 --> 00:07:39.839 if he would help me out. He so he knows this collection. He's 87 00:07:39.879 --> 00:07:43.800 got a photographic in a great analytical mind. So how did I get to 88 00:07:44.879 --> 00:07:47.680 all these documents? About five six years ago, I was a dinner at 89 00:07:47.720 --> 00:07:51.759 the Army and Navy Club and a gentleman I knew at another cable said, 90 00:07:51.759 --> 00:07:54.519 Hey, Cloud, when you come over here, I want to introduce you 91 00:07:54.560 --> 00:07:59.199 to some people. And among the people at the table was Eleanor Rickover. 92 00:08:00.000 --> 00:08:03.199 So I just sat down and chatted with her for a couple of minutes and 93 00:08:03.319 --> 00:08:05.240 didn't think anything of it. I mean, it was certainly this isn't missus 94 00:08:05.279 --> 00:08:11.360 Ricover. She's legendary as well. And a while later I was I was 95 00:08:11.800 --> 00:08:13.279 called up and say, hey, would you come over to Arlington to meet 96 00:08:13.279 --> 00:08:16.360 with missus Ricover. He said, okay, sure, and she still had 97 00:08:16.360 --> 00:08:20.759 the condo that she shared with the admiral, and so I went there. 98 00:08:20.800 --> 00:08:24.959 Went there a couple of times, and the one of the last times I 99 00:08:26.040 --> 00:08:28.879 was there, we chatted. I asked her about how did you meet the 100 00:08:28.920 --> 00:08:33.320 admiral and he laughed and said, well, I was a Navy nurse at 101 00:08:33.320 --> 00:08:37.200 Bethesda. He was just out of surgery and he had this mess of paper 102 00:08:37.279 --> 00:08:41.919 newspapers all around and I came in and I was so upset. I yelled 103 00:08:41.919 --> 00:08:43.159 at him and told him to clean up his mess and that I would never 104 00:08:43.240 --> 00:08:46.200 clean this up for him again. And he asked me out after that, 105 00:08:48.000 --> 00:08:52.679 uh so, And at the end of the conversation she and set some paperwork. 106 00:08:52.679 --> 00:08:56.720 Would you consider it? I said sure? And it was. She 107 00:08:56.840 --> 00:09:01.039 showed she had shown me what was in the condo that stilled of the admirals 108 00:09:01.039 --> 00:09:05.559 items in the Congressional Gold Medal. This in his rocking chair that he's gotten 109 00:09:05.600 --> 00:09:11.639 because of a recommendation from John Kennedy. There's Rolodex, which is phenomenal. 110 00:09:11.720 --> 00:09:16.320 The Rolodex which not only has the private numbers of politicians, it has the 111 00:09:16.360 --> 00:09:24.919 private numbers to the producer for das Boot for economists by John Kenneth Galbraith and 112 00:09:24.039 --> 00:09:28.879 Milton Friedman. And this is the Archbishops. I mean, it's incredible it's 113 00:09:28.919 --> 00:09:33.840 in there. However, there was there were also these boxes of papers, 114 00:09:33.399 --> 00:09:39.200 and so she said, I want to donate these to the Naval Academy Museum, 115 00:09:39.240 --> 00:09:43.200 and I want you to have them. I was like, okay, 116 00:09:43.240 --> 00:09:48.000 So I accepted them on behalf of the Naval Academy, as is my part 117 00:09:48.039 --> 00:09:52.080 of my job currently. And as soon as I did that, I signed 118 00:09:52.080 --> 00:09:56.440 a memoryanum agreement with the director of the library. I said, the most 119 00:09:56.440 --> 00:10:01.360 appropriate place for these to be is in the Nimit Library Special Collections. And 120 00:10:01.399 --> 00:10:07.120 the reason why is because the museum doesn't have a staff the catalog and provide 121 00:10:07.120 --> 00:10:11.480 research space from researchers for something like this of the scope. So the library 122 00:10:11.480 --> 00:10:16.679 staff was phenomenal and the only reason that this is available to researchers now is 123 00:10:16.720 --> 00:10:24.159 because of the extraordinary efforts that the staff went through and that would all passed 124 00:10:24.159 --> 00:10:26.279 away. A couple of years ago and a few months ago, I got 125 00:10:26.320 --> 00:10:31.559 a call from one of the executives, executives of their estates, that hey, 126 00:10:31.159 --> 00:10:35.200 the family would like you to come up over to Arlington for the internment. 127 00:10:35.840 --> 00:10:39.399 So this was I guess late August, and so I was there. 128 00:10:39.399 --> 00:10:43.440 It was about two dozen people or so, and it was just really very 129 00:10:43.480 --> 00:10:46.799 moving. It's in an older section of Arlington Cemetery, section five, which 130 00:10:48.320 --> 00:10:52.120 is not what you think of when you think of Arlington National Cemetery and the 131 00:10:52.320 --> 00:10:56.840 lines of symmetrical tombstones, et cetera. And I was just happening to look 132 00:10:56.919 --> 00:11:01.960 around at some of the names right around Goldberg, and I see Ginsburg, 133 00:11:03.399 --> 00:11:07.240 Uh, Potter, Stewart, Uh, you know, about a dozen Supreme 134 00:11:07.240 --> 00:11:11.480 Court justices that he was right next to. And it was it was kind 135 00:11:11.480 --> 00:11:15.279 of amusing to me because I said, oh Jesus, he had private numbers 136 00:11:15.279 --> 00:11:20.240 to some of these folks and had conversations with them about the law. Uh 137 00:11:20.279 --> 00:11:24.159 So yeah, that's all I came about it. And Gottonville Eldor a great 138 00:11:24.240 --> 00:11:31.279 lady, really truly wonderful One of the things that struck me in reading through 139 00:11:31.360 --> 00:11:35.879 this Cloud was it he starts out when he was a pretty young man, 140 00:11:35.639 --> 00:11:41.639 and you can you can almost see the well, you can read the maturation 141 00:11:41.799 --> 00:11:46.639 program progress that he made. I mean, he's he's full of uh. 142 00:11:46.080 --> 00:11:52.480 He's a really interesting character. And his first wife, uh, and he 143 00:11:52.639 --> 00:11:58.120 had quite the intellectual symbiosis maybe it's the right word. I mean they were 144 00:11:58.799 --> 00:12:01.639 they were pinging off each other pretty well. Could you talk a little bit 145 00:12:01.639 --> 00:12:05.519 about that relationship and what you see as far as his maturation as time went 146 00:12:05.519 --> 00:12:09.279 on. Absolutely, And I should probably note before that why I decided to 147 00:12:09.279 --> 00:12:13.960 go this route rather than write a biography. I was going through all of 148 00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:20.759 these documents for months, and I said, I've got to figure out what's 149 00:12:20.799 --> 00:12:26.200 the right take on this. And suddenly I came across one of the many 150 00:12:26.720 --> 00:12:31.720 letters that he had received about somebody offering to write his biography. I don't 151 00:12:31.720 --> 00:12:35.399 think most of them knew about Francis Dunk and they may have, I don't 152 00:12:35.440 --> 00:12:41.720 know. And at one point he responds to the person, Look, I've 153 00:12:41.720 --> 00:12:46.440 got plenty of boxes of papers in my apartment, and maybe someday somebody will 154 00:12:46.480 --> 00:12:50.519 write a biography. Based on that, but you're not going to get them. 155 00:12:50.759 --> 00:12:54.840 And I said, you know what, that's it. I need to 156 00:12:54.360 --> 00:12:58.679 let I need to not be a historian here. I can select the things 157 00:12:58.679 --> 00:13:03.799 that i've I think are important, but I want to set the stage for 158 00:13:03.879 --> 00:13:07.519 other people who are going to access these records. So that's why I went 159 00:13:07.559 --> 00:13:11.559 with the edited route of his papers, to let him speak for himself, 160 00:13:13.320 --> 00:13:18.080 because in a lot of ways, Rickover censored himself. People are probably going 161 00:13:18.159 --> 00:13:24.320 to be surprised with that comment, but he was very careful about managing his 162 00:13:24.399 --> 00:13:28.679 image, and that's why he fought so hard against some biographers. As one 163 00:13:28.720 --> 00:13:31.120 biographer, for example, the paperwork goes back to nineteen eighteen sixty four or 164 00:13:31.159 --> 00:13:35.360 sixty three where he says, don't you dare write a biography in me? 165 00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:41.159 Movies that they proposed that Hollywood proposed writing about him, he opposed that. 166 00:13:41.519 --> 00:13:46.759 He was very careful and very scripted. So that's why I call this Rick 167 00:13:46.799 --> 00:13:50.080 Over uncensored, because he's finally able. You're finally able to as the reader, 168 00:13:50.519 --> 00:13:56.399 hear and read what he is saying. That's a great point, Eagle 169 00:13:56.440 --> 00:14:00.720 one about the letters to his first wife, I think one I think those 170 00:14:00.720 --> 00:14:03.720 could be the most important ones. I considered writing a book called the Education 171 00:14:03.799 --> 00:14:09.559 of Hyman G. Rickovers, because when he's a lieutenant and lieutenant commander nineteen 172 00:14:09.600 --> 00:14:13.679 twenty nine and nineteen forty, he has a daily correspondence with Ruth, his 173 00:14:13.799 --> 00:14:18.240 first wife. He didn't see her as an equal. He saw her as 174 00:14:18.840 --> 00:14:26.000 her his intellectual superior. She had a doctorate in international relations, he had 175 00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:31.879 met her at Columbia, had incredible respect for And as you're reading these letters, 176 00:14:31.000 --> 00:14:33.919 yeah, there's part of the letters that say, I'll give you an 177 00:14:33.919 --> 00:14:37.679 example of one. This is rick Over writing to Ruth. There is more 178 00:14:37.720 --> 00:14:41.759 genuine kindness in this world than I ever believed possible. Wherever you have been 179 00:14:43.080 --> 00:14:46.759 there you have created a desire to be kindly and considerate and tender. This 180 00:14:46.919 --> 00:14:50.200 kindness and love which is being showered upon me moves me as nothing has ever 181 00:14:50.240 --> 00:14:52.879 moved me before. Okay, it goes on, and this is like almost 182 00:14:52.919 --> 00:14:56.799 every letter, but you get a sense now that there's more to the man 183 00:14:56.279 --> 00:15:01.159 than what we know of as simply the father of the nuclear name or the 184 00:15:01.519 --> 00:15:07.440 acerbic individual, that the person who had ultimate power in the navy. But 185 00:15:07.960 --> 00:15:13.360 in these letters he's also describing what's happening on the ship or the sub And 186 00:15:13.399 --> 00:15:16.960 I think especially at the point where he's in Shanghai as commander of a ship 187 00:15:16.639 --> 00:15:22.399 as he's watching the Japanese come in for their war against China, these are 188 00:15:22.480 --> 00:15:28.240 incredibly important first hand accounts. So I think about the first quarter or first 189 00:15:28.279 --> 00:15:33.279 third of the book is includes his letters to Ruth because I thought they were 190 00:15:33.360 --> 00:15:37.039 so important in his intellectual development. He's talking about the plays he's seeing, 191 00:15:37.080 --> 00:15:43.440 the operas he's seeing, he's examining poetry, he's picking apart some of the 192 00:15:43.440 --> 00:15:46.279 most difficult Russian books. He's explaining to her that, you know, I'm 193 00:15:46.320 --> 00:15:50.679 learning this German language, you know, for a couple of reasons, not 194 00:15:50.720 --> 00:15:54.600 the least of which is I want to translate this German officer's book on U 195 00:15:54.639 --> 00:16:00.360 boats. But also Ruth, that wasn't her name, and he was very 196 00:16:00.360 --> 00:16:07.360 protective of her. I think the reason why her birth name was Oga Howe 197 00:16:07.200 --> 00:16:12.919 and her father had committed a murder in Germany and it became the basis for 198 00:16:12.960 --> 00:16:17.679 the how Riots of nineteen well, shoot, it was nineteen oh three, 199 00:16:17.759 --> 00:16:19.919 nineteen oh seven, I think it was nineteen oh seven. Oh, So, 200 00:16:21.399 --> 00:16:23.919 Rico, thanks Rick over was very, very protective of the loop. 201 00:16:25.639 --> 00:16:30.960 And now there are gaps, and I think the most important gap in the 202 00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:34.639 collection is forty one to forty early forty five, where you don't see much. 203 00:16:34.679 --> 00:16:37.320 Now, it's possible he didn't write much because he was so busy with 204 00:16:37.399 --> 00:16:45.679 war. It's possible that he simply removed those I don't know. Yeah, 205 00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:52.200 that's one thing that caught me early on in reading that, because like most 206 00:16:52.240 --> 00:16:57.240 people before I read this, I had the image of Rick Over the nuclear 207 00:16:57.279 --> 00:17:02.399 engineer and all the still that I heard as a midship and in a jo 208 00:17:02.440 --> 00:17:07.880 from from my superiors that it had known him and his closet rather personally, 209 00:17:08.400 --> 00:17:14.559 and it really opened And I'm sure during the course of the show we'll we'll 210 00:17:14.920 --> 00:17:21.599 touch a little bit on the Renaissance nature. But the letters, especially to 211 00:17:21.960 --> 00:17:26.319 Ruth that he had, it reminded me, and I agree with you about 212 00:17:26.960 --> 00:17:33.799 her and her relationship. It reminded me in some ways about John and Abigail 213 00:17:33.839 --> 00:17:40.119 Adams, where the great man was only great in many ways because of the 214 00:17:40.599 --> 00:17:45.160 woman that he decided to marry and to make his life partner and for as 215 00:17:45.200 --> 00:17:51.319 long as as long as she lived, and it it opened up I think 216 00:17:51.480 --> 00:17:56.759 for later on, as as he develops as a as a man and as 217 00:17:56.799 --> 00:18:03.839 an officer, whereby reading that really that great gift of that personal relationship there, 218 00:18:03.000 --> 00:18:11.000 it lets you see him in a much more nuanced manner than you otherwise 219 00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:15.920 would with just this post. You know, this post World War two view 220 00:18:15.960 --> 00:18:22.440 that everybody has a brickover absolutely. In fact, when Ruth passes, he's 221 00:18:22.519 --> 00:18:25.720 writing to some of his own friends from the academy or for other ships, 222 00:18:26.240 --> 00:18:29.680 his closest friends, and he says, I never would have been the man 223 00:18:29.759 --> 00:18:33.039 today had it not been for Ruth. And I think he was right. 224 00:18:33.759 --> 00:18:41.319 Ruth challenged him mentally and the back and forth on these letters. And I 225 00:18:41.400 --> 00:18:45.079 only included a couple of Rooth's letters. I wish they had been one of 226 00:18:45.119 --> 00:18:52.400 them more. But I think as historians were realized, there are probably eight 227 00:18:52.400 --> 00:18:55.240 to ten more books that could be written out of this collection. I think 228 00:18:55.279 --> 00:19:02.000 there could be a great book about Ruth. Yeah, I think another connection 229 00:19:02.119 --> 00:19:07.519 they had, and I guess nobody here is a pop psychiatrist. But I 230 00:19:07.559 --> 00:19:12.599 thought what was also interesting what you mentioned is Ruth's name that she had with 231 00:19:12.680 --> 00:19:18.559 her in the US was not her born name. And though Admiral Rickover's last 232 00:19:18.640 --> 00:19:23.400 name was Rickover. That was not Hymen, was not his given name. 233 00:19:23.440 --> 00:19:30.440 It was heim Gala David I can't pronounce the middle name. Born in Poland, 234 00:19:30.039 --> 00:19:36.839 and he was appointed to the Naval Academy from I believe it was a 235 00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:42.160 representative from Chicago that was also Jewish in the right after World War Two, 236 00:19:42.359 --> 00:19:49.160 which for those that study their American history that the nineteen the period between World 237 00:19:49.200 --> 00:19:53.440 War One and World War two was not the best time in the world to 238 00:19:53.559 --> 00:19:59.720 be Jewish, especially a Jewish immigrant from Poland, and that always in some 239 00:19:59.759 --> 00:20:04.519 way set him apart, while at the same time he strived so much to 240 00:20:04.839 --> 00:20:11.319 be as institutional an American as you can. It's harder, I think, 241 00:20:11.759 --> 00:20:17.599 to be that than to go to one of the service academies. And when 242 00:20:17.599 --> 00:20:23.279 you absorbed that early on, I think it informs a little bit of his 243 00:20:23.279 --> 00:20:32.599 his toughness, but also his ability to rely on himself and not so much 244 00:20:33.759 --> 00:20:48.480 what most people will consider normal social networking institutions. Caued you there. Oh, 245 00:20:48.519 --> 00:20:51.799 it's trying about that, all right. You know, Ricover is sorry, 246 00:20:52.319 --> 00:20:57.599 Ricover is the American successfully you'd great to point out Poland, he accounts 247 00:20:57.640 --> 00:21:02.680 how he left Poland his mother and his sister. His father was already in 248 00:21:02.720 --> 00:21:08.720 the United States, and there are Cossacks coming back from the war with Japan 249 00:21:08.839 --> 00:21:12.400 that are, you know, tapping on their cart as he's going over there. 250 00:21:12.440 --> 00:21:18.319 He talks about the poverty that his mother could only afford to buy two 251 00:21:18.359 --> 00:21:22.279 oranges a year for them, and only on a special occasion. And I 252 00:21:22.359 --> 00:21:29.279 think that stuck with him throughout because again, another aspect of rickover that I 253 00:21:29.359 --> 00:21:33.400 was surprised about was his compassion, his deep compassion, especially for the poor. 254 00:21:33.039 --> 00:21:37.880 You see this on the streets of Shanghai where he's telling Ruth. I 255 00:21:37.880 --> 00:21:41.720 saw this man, I'm pretty sure he was dying. I stayed with him 256 00:21:41.759 --> 00:21:45.200 as long as I could. I gave him some points to be able to 257 00:21:45.240 --> 00:21:52.839 buy something for himself, and throughout his life he's donating to a lot of 258 00:21:52.920 --> 00:22:00.799 charities, especially for children. And that's not something I think people would expect. 259 00:22:00.799 --> 00:22:04.839 But again, people are far more complex generally than just summing them up 260 00:22:04.920 --> 00:22:10.440 in a few words or a few sentences. I think the most powerful letters 261 00:22:10.559 --> 00:22:15.599 I came across that really made me stop to sing. In nineteen eighty two, 262 00:22:17.039 --> 00:22:21.359 he received a letter from a young kid from San Francisco, nine year 263 00:22:21.400 --> 00:22:25.720 old. His first name was Hymen. He's Jewish, and he wrote, 264 00:22:26.000 --> 00:22:29.759 as many people from around the world wrote to Rick Olberg, just fan mail 265 00:22:29.839 --> 00:22:33.720 and again, try to imagine any flag officer in American history or today getting 266 00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:40.000 thousands of pieces of fan mail every year. And the nine year old says, 267 00:22:40.680 --> 00:22:42.680 my mom told me that your name is tim to two and that you 268 00:22:42.759 --> 00:22:48.680 build ships, and do you get angry when people make fun of your name? 269 00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:52.200 And hit about a page of this. Rick Over didn't always respond to 270 00:22:52.240 --> 00:22:56.400 people, but in this way he did this time, and he said, 271 00:22:56.640 --> 00:23:02.519 let me explain to you how this name came about in our faith, even 272 00:23:02.559 --> 00:23:07.039 though rick Overley Leader admit he was atheist and became Episcopalian for the roof. 273 00:23:08.200 --> 00:23:12.880 And it's just this very compassionate letter. But then it hit me. I 274 00:23:14.000 --> 00:23:18.240 had seen so many letters written by Ricover that were signed HG. Rickover. 275 00:23:19.000 --> 00:23:23.200 This was the only one I could find that was signed Hyman G. Rickover. 276 00:23:23.759 --> 00:23:26.400 And I think he was trying to connect with that young I wish I 277 00:23:26.440 --> 00:23:30.160 could find that young man. I've actually tried to do a few searches to 278 00:23:30.200 --> 00:23:33.079 see, you know, what impact did that letter have? On me, 279 00:23:33.200 --> 00:23:40.119 but I haven't been successful. Yeah, I think is compassion comes through. 280 00:23:40.200 --> 00:23:45.519 But it also what comes through in his letters is once he seizes on a 281 00:23:45.640 --> 00:23:52.960 project, whatever it is, he pursues it with an amazing amount of diligence. 282 00:23:52.839 --> 00:23:56.599 And I you know, as you go along, you realize that this 283 00:23:56.759 --> 00:24:00.119 is why he's so intolerant of people who waste their talent. So talk about 284 00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:07.839 that a little bit. He had high standards, but he sacrificed a lot 285 00:24:07.920 --> 00:24:11.200 of his life. He again, by his own account, throughout his navy 286 00:24:11.279 --> 00:24:15.480 career, he only averaged four and a half days of vacation per year. 287 00:24:18.200 --> 00:24:22.119 I don't know how he operated on that way, but the fact is he's 288 00:24:22.599 --> 00:24:26.640 writing a lot of speeches about his thoughts on life. He brought something like 289 00:24:26.680 --> 00:24:30.039 two hundred speeches on various subjects, a lot of on education, a lot 290 00:24:30.079 --> 00:24:37.119 on national security. But he really came to the basis that without having a 291 00:24:37.240 --> 00:24:42.440 vocation, that you're truly passionate about what effect are you going to have? 292 00:24:44.079 --> 00:24:45.680 How are you going to be able to work that at what you're doing, 293 00:24:45.880 --> 00:24:51.799 whatever it is, And you can distinguish between the nuclear physicist and the barber 294 00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:57.839 or whomever he wanted people to get their jobs right because they understood that they 295 00:24:57.880 --> 00:25:06.400 had a mission. And I think what he sacrificed was a lot of time 296 00:25:06.440 --> 00:25:08.079 with people that need, you know, a lot of friendships. He had 297 00:25:08.119 --> 00:25:14.640 a few friends obviously, but he got to know members of Congress very well, 298 00:25:14.799 --> 00:25:19.680 and he tended throughout his career to do something that admirals don't do today. 299 00:25:19.680 --> 00:25:22.240 In fact, I asked the retired four star admiral about this. I 300 00:25:22.240 --> 00:25:26.160 said, he Sarah, got to ask you, did you and your wife 301 00:25:26.240 --> 00:25:30.279 ever go to, say, a play in DC with a senator and his 302 00:25:30.440 --> 00:25:33.319 wife? He said, are you kidding me? We could never do that. 303 00:25:33.359 --> 00:25:34.000 I said, okay, just want to just want to make sure. 304 00:25:34.759 --> 00:25:41.160 But time and again Rickover and his wives first and second are doing this or 305 00:25:41.200 --> 00:25:44.799 they're going to the Speaker of the House's home where the Speaker of the House 306 00:25:44.880 --> 00:25:51.319 is playing the piano. For Rickover, work was his life because he believed 307 00:25:51.400 --> 00:25:55.359 in the mission of the Navy and the United States and how he was committed 308 00:25:55.359 --> 00:26:00.359 to it. And I think he accepted those sacrifices as a result of what 309 00:26:00.920 --> 00:26:03.519 he wanted to do. And that's I think very understandable and I think, 310 00:26:03.640 --> 00:26:11.839 quite frankly, if ric Overhead retired on his own in November nineteen eighty at 311 00:26:11.880 --> 00:26:15.680 the height of his power. When Jimmy Carter, I think Jimmy Carter was 312 00:26:15.720 --> 00:26:21.279 defeated. I think ric a lot of the negative notions about rick Over would 313 00:26:21.279 --> 00:26:27.400 have been mitigated. The reason I say that is, well, maybe we 314 00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:33.880 can. We can talk about another time. But I think, sorry, 315 00:26:33.920 --> 00:26:37.680 I must be the antibiotics or whatever the heucts. I'm taken. I lost 316 00:26:37.759 --> 00:26:41.000 my train of thought. Sorry about that. That's okay with him, that's 317 00:26:41.000 --> 00:26:44.319 the first time. Yeah, we can, we can re engage with the 318 00:26:44.519 --> 00:26:51.720 with the post eighties here here in a bit. Oh, that's go ahead, 319 00:26:51.720 --> 00:26:56.440 I got it. Sorry about that. I think what pained him so 320 00:26:56.680 --> 00:27:03.279 much by being forcibly removed in late eighty one early eighty two is he had 321 00:27:03.440 --> 00:27:08.359 such passion. It wasn't about I don't think it was about power. This 322 00:27:08.599 --> 00:27:12.440 was his life's mission, and he had done it for so long he didn't 323 00:27:12.519 --> 00:27:17.720 know what was next. That is my impression. Again, I'm not a 324 00:27:17.759 --> 00:27:23.480 psychologist. I'm a simple historian. But after reading everything I have about Rickover 325 00:27:23.680 --> 00:27:29.359 and buy Ricover that's my assessment. I could be wrong, and I hope 326 00:27:29.440 --> 00:27:34.680 historians will have a different perspective on them. And I can imagine as a 327 00:27:36.640 --> 00:27:41.519 historian being able to access somebody who was passionately and goodness knows, he could 328 00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:48.880 outwork almost anybody for over half a century. I think that's also rather unique, 329 00:27:48.880 --> 00:27:53.079 as opposed to somebody who just put twenty or thirty years in and when 330 00:27:53.079 --> 00:27:59.319 you look at him, an incredibly intelligent person who got to where he was 331 00:28:00.240 --> 00:28:03.720 not because of like one of the people he mentions in one of his letters, 332 00:28:03.759 --> 00:28:06.559 because of his the money his uncle had or anything like that, but 333 00:28:06.640 --> 00:28:11.279 of his own hard work. He went to the Naval Academy I think it 334 00:28:11.400 --> 00:28:15.519 was nineteen forty six. He went to MIT to be one of the first 335 00:28:15.599 --> 00:28:19.440 people to learn about nuclear power. Yet he was not a credentialist. He 336 00:28:19.599 --> 00:28:25.839 did not wear his academic background or judge other people like that. And there 337 00:28:25.920 --> 00:28:30.559 was a in one of his letters to I believe it was Ruth in nineteen 338 00:28:30.720 --> 00:28:37.119 thirty this is something that I found. I wish more and more people thought 339 00:28:37.160 --> 00:28:40.079 like this. I'm gonna do a little bit of extended quote from adamal Rick 340 00:28:40.119 --> 00:28:45.160 Kobert here quote I am becoming more tolerant of these men who have no book 341 00:28:45.319 --> 00:28:48.640 education, they are more likely to make decisions and can see matters cleary, 342 00:28:49.240 --> 00:28:53.680 I mean intelligent men. Of course. The thing that shocks me is all 343 00:28:53.759 --> 00:29:00.880 these officers who represent the younger generation already have closed minds from purely professional subjects. 344 00:29:02.240 --> 00:29:06.000 They are dead mentally. Certainly, there is something woefully wrong with our 345 00:29:06.039 --> 00:29:11.559 system of education which brings about a condition such as this ut And you can 346 00:29:11.640 --> 00:29:17.599 see that a few times in his letters where he seems very frustrated by the 347 00:29:17.720 --> 00:29:22.599 people around him, like a lot of people like that don't share his enthusiasm 348 00:29:22.759 --> 00:29:27.000 for the broader requirements of the profession, or that are willing to make the 349 00:29:27.160 --> 00:29:33.119 effort to think beyond the immediate. That part of his personality really comes out 350 00:29:33.680 --> 00:29:41.519 real early on as a junior officer. Yeah, I agree. He throughout 351 00:29:41.559 --> 00:29:47.640 his career he's making comments about the elites, and those could be the elites 352 00:29:47.640 --> 00:29:51.680 of the Navy, it could be the elites of corporations, of those who 353 00:29:51.759 --> 00:29:57.359 had, you know, extraordinary backgrounds and their family connections. I think he 354 00:29:57.559 --> 00:30:03.839 trusted that he really was more of a humanities person when you think about it, 355 00:30:03.400 --> 00:30:08.119 than a technologist. He wanted to understand can these individuals think? And 356 00:30:08.160 --> 00:30:11.880 I want to say something else about, you know, the people around him. 357 00:30:11.839 --> 00:30:15.839 This is something else I started seeing. I started seeing the same names 358 00:30:15.839 --> 00:30:21.680 and actually the nicknames of his staff. He's joking around with his staff in 359 00:30:21.759 --> 00:30:26.559 a great way. There's some great memos in there that he's sending to them 360 00:30:26.640 --> 00:30:33.799 and to other people, and there's a continuity to it. There are people 361 00:30:33.880 --> 00:30:40.079 who are staying with him for twenty thirty years. All right. Rickover was 362 00:30:40.079 --> 00:30:45.759 a difficult individual, no question, but he also engendered loyalty from people. 363 00:30:45.039 --> 00:30:48.400 And I think that's the next step maybe that your storian should take, is 364 00:30:48.880 --> 00:30:55.400 what was the difference between these populations. Why were some so incredibly loyal to 365 00:30:55.519 --> 00:31:00.960 him that they stayed around their entire careers working for the man. And I 366 00:31:02.039 --> 00:31:04.640 think they saw what he was doing, and at his heart he was doing 367 00:31:04.640 --> 00:31:07.680 the right thing, and he didn't took care of folks. I mean, 368 00:31:07.680 --> 00:31:12.759 there's one young lieutenant that he knows. Lieutenant is moving out to the West 369 00:31:12.799 --> 00:31:18.599 Coast, I believe it was. And he said he here's a few thousand 370 00:31:18.640 --> 00:31:22.279 dollars still by yourself the house. Pay me back over the next five years. 371 00:31:22.400 --> 00:31:25.680 Okay. I want you and your wife to be okay, not have 372 00:31:25.799 --> 00:31:29.480 to worry about anything. And again, these are these are the things that 373 00:31:29.559 --> 00:31:33.240 people don't see. In fact, the first letter I came across that is 374 00:31:33.319 --> 00:31:36.359 in the files, the earliest letter, and I wish they went back to 375 00:31:36.640 --> 00:31:41.240 his naval academy days of nineteen eighteen and nineteen twenty two. But he's at 376 00:31:41.319 --> 00:31:47.240 the US Naval Hospital in Brooklyn, and he writes to Ruth. In the 377 00:31:47.319 --> 00:31:51.079 next room, a young officer is dying. His bride of six months has 378 00:31:51.279 --> 00:31:55.680 just arrived from California. I can see that a brief period of happiness now 379 00:31:55.720 --> 00:31:59.319 about to become nothing but a sad, sweet memory. How terrible it is, 380 00:32:00.079 --> 00:32:04.759 bright hopes of being shattered, What poignant sorrow there is. And I 381 00:32:04.920 --> 00:32:10.279 think that's what initially drew me into this collection, is this was not an 382 00:32:10.319 --> 00:32:15.480 automaton. This was not a technologist, This isn't This is a man of 383 00:32:15.559 --> 00:32:20.519 passion. Perhaps he was able to hide it sometimes better than other times. 384 00:32:21.400 --> 00:32:25.400 I guess we all do that, but really very complex. And I what 385 00:32:25.519 --> 00:32:30.599 I hope is that when people read this in its entirety, they'll understand that. 386 00:32:30.720 --> 00:32:35.359 And there's actually reason why I didn't put the index in the in the 387 00:32:35.400 --> 00:32:38.599 book, there's something called the Washington read where people in Washington, d C. 388 00:32:38.720 --> 00:32:42.839 Will automatically go to the index of the book to see if they're in 389 00:32:42.960 --> 00:32:45.839 it or their bosses in it. And for this time, I figured, 390 00:32:45.839 --> 00:32:49.319 Okay, so it's going to be on Kendo, which I believe it's up 391 00:32:49.440 --> 00:32:53.480 now. It's available at Barntonoble and Amazon. People can search on kind. 392 00:32:54.119 --> 00:33:00.400 But I really truly wanted people to see from beginning to end what the Smith 393 00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:05.440 and I think Eagle One hit on it is. You see this evolution of 394 00:33:05.640 --> 00:33:09.279 Rickover, who was the man in the seventies and eighties hot eighties. How 395 00:33:09.279 --> 00:33:13.759 did he get there? What was he thinking about? And you get a 396 00:33:13.799 --> 00:33:17.519 lot of answers by seeing the first couple of decades. You see somebody who 397 00:33:17.640 --> 00:33:23.079 is writing a memo to the Office of Legislative Affairs in I think nineteen fifty 398 00:33:23.200 --> 00:33:28.279 or fifty one, and you can tell he's nervous writing this memo to OLA 399 00:33:28.759 --> 00:33:31.119 because I don't know what to do. I was just contacted by a Senator's 400 00:33:31.160 --> 00:33:37.240 office should I what do I do? And I laughed out loud at one 401 00:33:37.279 --> 00:33:40.079 point, and fam who was working there at the time, heard me laugh, 402 00:33:40.319 --> 00:33:45.720 as he did many times, and I said that's extraordinary because later on 403 00:33:45.519 --> 00:33:52.759 you start to see these letters where a congressman goes to Rickover because he can't 404 00:33:52.799 --> 00:33:55.680 get access to this. I think it was the House Appropriations Chair because he 405 00:33:55.720 --> 00:33:59.960 act that the chair isn't seeing anybody, and I was told to come see 406 00:34:00.079 --> 00:34:02.079 you because you might be able to help. So Rickover calls the House Approach 407 00:34:02.160 --> 00:34:06.680 Chair on his personally and says, hey, can you see Congressman so and 408 00:34:06.839 --> 00:34:08.039 so. He said, yeah, no problem, rick, I'll take care 409 00:34:08.079 --> 00:34:14.920 of it. Boem. And it's that kind of evolution of how impactful he 410 00:34:15.239 --> 00:34:19.719 was. And again we will not see his kind again for a couple of 411 00:34:19.800 --> 00:34:23.400 reasons. Number one, granted, and our nuclear raptors is what six I 412 00:34:23.440 --> 00:34:27.719 think it's a six year billet. Now forgive me. I'm not a nuke. 413 00:34:27.800 --> 00:34:32.960 I was a simple intel dude. But Rickover had decades, and he 414 00:34:34.199 --> 00:34:39.679 established relationships directly with members of Congress and policymakers and presidents. At one point, 415 00:34:39.960 --> 00:34:45.360 he's having an event and three former presidents show up. So I think 416 00:34:45.440 --> 00:34:51.880 what's important is I don't think and I don't know this. I don't think 417 00:34:51.960 --> 00:34:57.639 we could have gotten the nuclear program up as quickly or as safely or with 418 00:34:57.760 --> 00:35:01.480 as much support from Congress. If it hadn't been for Rickover. I know 419 00:35:01.679 --> 00:35:09.440 that it was a contrahistory or counterhistory, but it's tough to imagine something like 420 00:35:09.519 --> 00:35:14.400 that happening. If you know, what if Washington had hadn't crossed the Delaware 421 00:35:14.440 --> 00:35:17.719 or something. What if it hadn't been Ricover? What if he as a 422 00:35:17.840 --> 00:35:22.280 captain. In fact, Ricover says this that writes this at one point. 423 00:35:23.159 --> 00:35:27.280 I think it was in the seventies, he says, you know always because 424 00:35:27.320 --> 00:35:30.320 he's talking about this memo that he gets from insiders. He said, you 425 00:35:30.400 --> 00:35:32.360 know, Rick, this is I just want to let you know. All 426 00:35:32.400 --> 00:35:37.760 the admirals met over in Monterey last week and they said the biggest problem the 427 00:35:37.800 --> 00:35:42.119 mayby has is and everything it's Rickover. And he laughs and he says, 428 00:35:42.159 --> 00:35:46.519 you know they what they don't realize is Millington or US. I wasn't anoying 429 00:35:46.559 --> 00:35:50.960 at the time, but it was a few person in DC. All few 430 00:35:51.000 --> 00:35:53.280 person had to do in nineteen fifty one or fifty two is assigned me a 431 00:35:53.320 --> 00:35:58.639 glomb or some other place, and they never would have heard from me again. 432 00:35:59.199 --> 00:36:04.400 But instead I had access and learned that access from the British. In 433 00:36:04.480 --> 00:36:09.320 fact, he develops very strong relationship with Lord Mountbatten. They have a correspondence 434 00:36:09.400 --> 00:36:15.960 going on for about twenty years. In fact, Count Baton I asked Eleanor 435 00:36:15.960 --> 00:36:19.840 about this when she was talking about one story, and I confirmed it in 436 00:36:20.239 --> 00:36:27.119 the papers that mount Batton had off. Mount Baton had Eleanor and Rick over 437 00:36:27.199 --> 00:36:32.880 for dinner and rickover comes storming out of the salon or something to Eleanor and 438 00:36:34.440 --> 00:36:37.679 she says, what's wrong. He goes, he should know me better than 439 00:36:37.679 --> 00:36:42.599 that. He just offered me a knighthood in exchange for nuclear information or agreements. 440 00:36:42.840 --> 00:36:44.960 And he says, I guess you're not going to be a lady now. 441 00:36:45.000 --> 00:36:49.760 She goes, oh, I'll always be a lady. So those relationships 442 00:36:49.840 --> 00:36:55.880 were very important to Rick over here and overseas and to the Navy. Yeah. 443 00:36:57.360 --> 00:37:00.480 I can't remember the exact quote from the book, but the lot but 444 00:37:00.519 --> 00:37:07.239 when he got the assignment too had to get into the nuclear business. Uh. 445 00:37:07.400 --> 00:37:10.519 The quote was something like, well, nobody likes him. He's a 446 00:37:10.679 --> 00:37:15.000 he's a he's he's a you know, an awful human being, but he'll 447 00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:19.800 get the job done. And I'm thinking, you know that is that is 448 00:37:19.880 --> 00:37:22.599 the problem with and I think he pointed out, this is the problem that 449 00:37:22.679 --> 00:37:25.199 the good old boy, you know, I'll do enough to get things over. 450 00:37:25.280 --> 00:37:29.000 I'll keep this job for three years and move on. His view was 451 00:37:29.039 --> 00:37:31.920 completely opposite that. And all he wanted to do was get the job done, 452 00:37:31.960 --> 00:37:35.199 and he was going to understand the job. He wanted to be in 453 00:37:35.280 --> 00:37:38.239 the job long enough to get a good grip on it, and and he 454 00:37:38.360 --> 00:37:42.400 wanted his you know, his people to be on the job long enough to 455 00:37:42.400 --> 00:37:45.440 get a good grip with it. He really, he really was lambasting the 456 00:37:46.000 --> 00:37:51.719 the Navy system of putting some uh, you know, ridiculous line officer like 457 00:37:51.800 --> 00:37:54.440 me and charge a bunch of technical people and leaving him there for a year 458 00:37:54.480 --> 00:37:58.159 and a half or two years and moving on to some other position. I 459 00:37:58.239 --> 00:38:01.400 mean, he was he was quite at about knowing your job and knowing your 460 00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:06.440 people and knowing what they're up to. Yeah, and that was part of 461 00:38:07.119 --> 00:38:12.519 his interviews. Now, I should say in the around sixty three or sixty 462 00:38:12.599 --> 00:38:15.880 four, there was a letter from the CNO that said, Hey, Rick, 463 00:38:15.960 --> 00:38:19.039 I'm gonna be retiring here in a few weeks. And you know, 464 00:38:19.880 --> 00:38:22.960 loved work with you all this time. And by the way this interview thing, 465 00:38:23.039 --> 00:38:27.599 would you kind of ease up on the kids? Please just for me, 466 00:38:27.880 --> 00:38:30.000 please do this? And of course the interviews went on for a while, 467 00:38:30.719 --> 00:38:36.960 but one of the certainly probably the most famous person to come out of 468 00:38:37.000 --> 00:38:39.960 those interviews was Jimmy Carter, who we established a relationship, especially in the 469 00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:45.880 nineteen seventies, because when he interviewed Carter, he said, did you do 470 00:38:46.000 --> 00:38:50.719 your best? And Carter said, well, not always. He says, 471 00:38:50.719 --> 00:38:53.760 why not the best? And so Carter took that on as his campaign's logan, 472 00:38:54.039 --> 00:38:59.719 why not the best? And early on, and I think Carter was 473 00:38:59.719 --> 00:39:02.000 still government at the time. This is what seventy and you two or seventy 474 00:39:02.079 --> 00:39:07.280 three was really early, and Carter wrote to him and said, Admiral, 475 00:39:07.480 --> 00:39:08.840 I just want to let you know I'm running. I plan on running for 476 00:39:08.920 --> 00:39:12.840 president and seventy six I would like your support. I'd like to ask you 477 00:39:12.920 --> 00:39:19.159 about national security issues. And so begins a correspondence between the two to the 478 00:39:19.199 --> 00:39:22.639 point where Rickover could call the White House and say, I could I talk 479 00:39:22.639 --> 00:39:25.639 to the President? Could I go see the President? I'm sure to the 480 00:39:25.679 --> 00:39:32.519 consternation of every Navy officer at that point, but at one point, Rickover's 481 00:39:32.559 --> 00:39:37.960 in his condo and there's a knock on the door, and Eleanor had put 482 00:39:38.000 --> 00:39:42.280 out I think it was seven Oh, no, it was five. I 483 00:39:42.320 --> 00:39:45.599 think it was five plates. He says, well, who's coming over tonight, 484 00:39:45.880 --> 00:39:47.280 and said, oh, I just invited a couple of people. And 485 00:39:47.400 --> 00:39:51.000 there's a knock on the door and he opens it up and it's President Carter 486 00:39:51.159 --> 00:39:55.000 and his wife and Amy and a couple of Secret Service agents and he looks 487 00:39:55.039 --> 00:40:00.480 over. Eleanor said, I wasn't expecting this. Well, the nice thing 488 00:40:00.079 --> 00:40:06.679 about this collection is we know everything that was discussed at that dinner because rick 489 00:40:06.719 --> 00:40:09.599 Over wrote a memorandum for the Record that was about I think eight pages long, 490 00:40:10.159 --> 00:40:15.760 and all I could think of was this that apparently Eleanor and Missus Carter 491 00:40:15.920 --> 00:40:20.599 had been on a trip and Eleanor had said, why don't you come over 492 00:40:20.679 --> 00:40:23.599 to dinner sometimes? So the two of them concocted this, and I thought 493 00:40:23.719 --> 00:40:28.119 the intent, I assume the intent was let's just have a nice evening, 494 00:40:28.199 --> 00:40:30.920 relaxing. Well, when you start to see this memorandum for the Record and 495 00:40:31.119 --> 00:40:36.760 all the topics that covering that are really being covered by rick Over talking, 496 00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:40.639 I can't imagine what that that dinner must have been like. But it's just 497 00:40:42.400 --> 00:40:46.800 one of those stories where he has this incredible relationship with people, and I 498 00:40:46.880 --> 00:40:51.320 think that's, you know, one of the lessons that you know, hopefully 499 00:40:52.760 --> 00:40:55.840 younger people of an interest we'll get out of this. And you know, 500 00:40:55.880 --> 00:40:59.679 it's one thing that I think I've mentioned on the show before that I never 501 00:40:59.760 --> 00:41:02.840 cried the code of I wish I had until I was like a mid grade 502 00:41:02.880 --> 00:41:09.320 oh four is the importance of networks, not glad handing, you know, 503 00:41:09.599 --> 00:41:15.199 kiss up, push down, but just as you go through your professional career, 504 00:41:15.440 --> 00:41:22.800 maintaining a connection of acquaintances and friends and nurturing that and maintain that because 505 00:41:22.360 --> 00:41:25.159 not only does it make for a more enjoyable, richer life, but there 506 00:41:25.199 --> 00:41:30.559 can be points down the road where you can tap into that network. And 507 00:41:30.880 --> 00:41:32.920 when you mentioned the Carter story, I was like, he was right after 508 00:41:32.960 --> 00:41:38.440 World War Two exactly A Carter graduated from the Naval Academy in forty six and 509 00:41:38.679 --> 00:41:43.880 then he went into you know, did her his naval So sometime in the 510 00:41:43.960 --> 00:41:49.920 early nineteen fifties was when he had his initial interaction with Rickover and then lo 511 00:41:50.079 --> 00:41:54.760 and behold a couple of decades later, that connection gets reached back and it 512 00:41:54.920 --> 00:42:00.960 goes on for another decade and a half. I thought, I thought there 513 00:42:00.039 --> 00:42:07.079 was a really sweet note towards the end in the mid eighties that President Carter 514 00:42:07.440 --> 00:42:12.559 sent to Rickover after he had gone through all his travails, and you can 515 00:42:13.119 --> 00:42:15.519 I think a lot of that comes from the fact. And I want to 516 00:42:15.039 --> 00:42:19.960 because it's we had the full hour. I could do extended quotes from the 517 00:42:19.960 --> 00:42:22.360 book here. I wanted to tie together a few things, so correct me 518 00:42:22.400 --> 00:42:27.840 if I'm scrolling as I scroll through here that goes back to nineteen twenty nine. 519 00:42:27.880 --> 00:42:31.480 Now nineteen twenty nine. Ricover is only thirty years old. He's kind 520 00:42:31.559 --> 00:42:37.159 of an old soul. Early and in this letter to Ruth in September nineteen 521 00:42:37.199 --> 00:42:42.480 twenty nine, as a thirty year old beginning to quote, I met an 522 00:42:42.519 --> 00:42:46.159 interesting officer at the country club near Westinghouse, Captain Mcattee. We talked for 523 00:42:46.280 --> 00:42:51.039 quite a while about world affairs. He recommended that I read das Capital. 524 00:42:51.679 --> 00:42:54.440 One statement he made was surprising that a man on the New York Times staff 525 00:42:54.480 --> 00:42:59.679 who writes the naval editorials is a retired British naval officer. If you can 526 00:42:59.719 --> 00:43:01.360 vary up this. That would be a fine point to make in one of 527 00:43:01.400 --> 00:43:07.440 your seminars. I'll break from quote again that talks about how they communicated about 528 00:43:07.480 --> 00:43:13.400 their mutual professional activities. Anyway, returning to the quote, I find that 529 00:43:13.440 --> 00:43:17.039 I am always very much at ease in conversing with older officers because they generally 530 00:43:17.119 --> 00:43:22.800 talk about international affairs and cultural subjects. The younger ones are not that way. 531 00:43:22.079 --> 00:43:28.960 They talk more petty matters and various technical details. Captain McAtee quoted Eddington 532 00:43:29.079 --> 00:43:32.400 the physicist is saying that a man has to mind but half open, who 533 00:43:32.480 --> 00:43:37.599 believes only those things that are true which he can actually see and hear, 534 00:43:38.159 --> 00:43:44.199 that there is a great deal more that must be accepted on faith. And 535 00:43:44.320 --> 00:43:46.960 then a little later on, if I shift over here a few pages, 536 00:43:47.440 --> 00:43:54.400 if I can do this confidently, he also talks about tolerance, going back 537 00:43:54.400 --> 00:43:59.079 to that level of tolerance, and this is in late twenty nine, so 538 00:43:59.119 --> 00:44:02.800 he's still a thirty year old officer here. My own experience has taught me 539 00:44:02.880 --> 00:44:07.440 that if I had been judged according to the strict interpretation of the law our 540 00:44:07.559 --> 00:44:10.480 naval regulations, that I would have been court martialed more times than I can 541 00:44:10.599 --> 00:44:15.119 count. Therefore, I have learned to be tolerant of transgressions of those about 542 00:44:15.239 --> 00:44:22.079 me, and treat my subordinates as leniently and decently as I myself have been 543 00:44:22.559 --> 00:44:28.199 treated. And then we go all the way over to I think that's page 544 00:44:28.199 --> 00:44:31.760 eighty six. I can't be tolerant of me as I scroll around my kindle. 545 00:44:31.840 --> 00:44:37.039 Here here we go. This is in thirty five thirty five year old 546 00:44:37.639 --> 00:44:40.719 man. Quote, by the way, we have last learned why we are 547 00:44:42.599 --> 00:44:45.599 This is the cynical part of it, which is great. Go back to 548 00:44:45.679 --> 00:44:49.159 the quote, quote, by the way, we have learned that we are 549 00:44:49.239 --> 00:44:52.239 here to celebrate. It is one hundred and fiftieth anniversary of Commodore Perry's retirement 550 00:44:52.280 --> 00:44:55.559 for the Navy. Now isn't that a wonderful excuse for dragging a number of 551 00:44:55.599 --> 00:44:59.599 warships all the way to San Francisco? For I understand he was about to 552 00:44:59.599 --> 00:45:04.400 be Corp Marshall, so he conveniently retired, And you have this later on. 553 00:45:04.559 --> 00:45:08.000 He wasn't very good culture critic. He before they made the movie, 554 00:45:08.039 --> 00:45:15.119 he got the book Gone with the Wind that he recommended and then said, 555 00:45:15.280 --> 00:45:17.840 I don't think this book will last very long he wasn't too oppressed with it, 556 00:45:19.119 --> 00:45:22.480 and that he quotes another book that I don't recall about reconstruction, but 557 00:45:22.559 --> 00:45:27.800 now I want to read it. So he also and I believe nineteen thirty 558 00:45:27.840 --> 00:45:32.639 six he recommended that I believe I had this right. He had just finished 559 00:45:32.719 --> 00:45:37.119 mind comp and was sending mind coomp to Ruth to read, and they talked 560 00:45:37.119 --> 00:45:40.159 a lot about German, and they communicated in German on ready the basis. 561 00:45:40.519 --> 00:45:47.800 So this is not the hyper technical, grumpy engineer who was just focused on 562 00:45:49.199 --> 00:45:52.719 things nuclear and making sure that everything was gone by it by a checklist. 563 00:45:52.280 --> 00:46:00.639 This was a learned man who understood a whole variety of subjects that he cared 564 00:46:00.880 --> 00:46:06.440 about deeply. Though he did really have what we have nowadays call a stem 565 00:46:06.519 --> 00:46:10.880 bias and how he viewed the proper education of a naval officer. Yeah, 566 00:46:10.880 --> 00:46:15.079 and I think you see that reflected in as sorry about that, that's my 567 00:46:15.199 --> 00:46:19.119 dog. I think you see that reflected in the topics of his speeches on 568 00:46:19.599 --> 00:46:27.000 say, competency based education or humanity, humanity and technology. But even of 569 00:46:27.119 --> 00:46:32.079 the two hundred plus hearings at which he testified between nineteen fifty and nineteen eighty 570 00:46:32.079 --> 00:46:36.760 two, which I think is a record that will stand for any American. 571 00:46:37.480 --> 00:46:40.639 I don't know if anybody who's done that much. But when you look at 572 00:46:42.400 --> 00:46:50.320 the variety of committees, Yeah, there's the Joint Committee on Atomic Energy Arm 573 00:46:50.440 --> 00:46:54.199 Services, but then Committee on Labor, Committee on Banking, Committee on Labor 574 00:46:54.280 --> 00:46:59.960 and Public Welfare, et Center, a small select Committee on small Business. 575 00:47:00.599 --> 00:47:05.800 Rickover is everywhere. And certainly some of the admirals were saying, you know, 576 00:47:05.920 --> 00:47:07.639 he's in our lane. Get him out of our lane, because he 577 00:47:07.679 --> 00:47:13.719 doesn't know our lane. I would argue that he probably because of the amount 578 00:47:13.840 --> 00:47:17.639 that he read and absorbed and he thought about. Because his books that we 579 00:47:17.800 --> 00:47:23.159 got that we sent over to the library are all marked up, the articles 580 00:47:23.199 --> 00:47:27.800 that he read are all marked up. He's thinking about this and commenting to 581 00:47:27.920 --> 00:47:31.679 hisself, so he could understand these issues in a way. That's why he 582 00:47:31.719 --> 00:47:37.119 could call these people like Milton Friedman and have a conversation about, you know, 583 00:47:37.559 --> 00:47:42.559 economics. He could talk to the Chief Justice at a party about a 584 00:47:42.679 --> 00:47:49.800 certain a certain case that had just come up, because he delved into it 585 00:47:49.880 --> 00:47:53.800 in a way nobody else did. And again, maybe I'm sounding hagiographic. 586 00:47:53.880 --> 00:47:58.519 I don't mean to sound that way. But I think again what I said 587 00:47:58.519 --> 00:48:04.480 at the beginning is rick was far more complex than the two or three bullets 588 00:48:04.599 --> 00:48:10.079 we normally hear about him. And even when Francis Duncan is writing his biography 589 00:48:10.159 --> 00:48:14.639 the first he did two books. When he's writing his biography, he's interviewing 590 00:48:14.679 --> 00:48:16.960 people and he collects about three pages and he just goes to and says, 591 00:48:17.360 --> 00:48:20.800 what's the first word that comes to your mind when you think of Rick Over? 592 00:48:21.280 --> 00:48:22.400 And there's a lot of negative things in that, but you know what, 593 00:48:22.440 --> 00:48:27.239 there's a lot of positive things in there too, So I think it's 594 00:48:27.599 --> 00:48:31.679 very dependent, and I think that's why you need to understand the whole individual 595 00:48:31.760 --> 00:48:40.280 and his whole career rather than just his being a cerbic with reporters or the 596 00:48:40.559 --> 00:48:47.079 people that he interviewed. Yeah, I was talking with my wife on the 597 00:48:47.119 --> 00:48:53.360 way down to Virginia Beach or where we were. I was talking about one 598 00:48:53.360 --> 00:48:57.960 of the things, the advantages you want to call it, that that Rickover 599 00:48:58.079 --> 00:49:01.440 had is that he had fewer distract and to deal with than we do today. 600 00:49:01.480 --> 00:49:06.000 There was no television, radio was kind of in its infancy, so 601 00:49:06.159 --> 00:49:09.039 he you know, what do smart people do when you don't have radio or 602 00:49:09.079 --> 00:49:13.960 television and are interested in the world. You know, in those days, 603 00:49:14.000 --> 00:49:16.800 you read and I think that really set the pattern for his life. He 604 00:49:16.800 --> 00:49:21.480 would get into our subject. If he wanted to study about economics, he 605 00:49:21.519 --> 00:49:24.480 would, he would, you know, get into economics. They didn't uh 606 00:49:25.599 --> 00:49:30.159 mess around with with the distractions. In fact, he was very critical the 607 00:49:30.239 --> 00:49:37.159 Naval Naval Academy's efforts at athletic supremacy. He didn't think that that that that 608 00:49:37.199 --> 00:49:40.679 shouldn't even be a part of the academy program, although he was in favor, 609 00:49:40.760 --> 00:49:46.360 I guess of intermural athletics. But it's just interesting to me that you 610 00:49:46.440 --> 00:49:51.639 know, the focus he had and how he how he kept pursuing this stuff, 611 00:49:51.679 --> 00:49:55.920 and and you know, you keep wondering about the the the the the 612 00:49:57.199 --> 00:50:02.639 number of efforts to get him fired made by uh set deaths and Secretary of 613 00:50:02.719 --> 00:50:07.320 the Navy. And only have have the people who knew him, a lot 614 00:50:07.360 --> 00:50:13.239 of these congressmen and others and respected him, save him and promote him. 615 00:50:13.280 --> 00:50:19.159 And I'm sure that just didn't endear him to every CNO and and uh uh 616 00:50:19.519 --> 00:50:22.239 Secretary of the Navy that came along. Talk a little bit about how his 617 00:50:22.800 --> 00:50:27.079 how his termed life review was was. I mean, we already talked about 618 00:50:27.079 --> 00:50:30.039 he laid the foundation for his termal life, he worked hard to get there, 619 00:50:30.400 --> 00:50:32.159 but we talk a little bit about the people who really disliked him and 620 00:50:32.840 --> 00:50:37.519 how much of that was based on the power that he actually, uh was 621 00:50:37.599 --> 00:50:42.679 able to maybe unintentionally, but that he didn't seek power, but that he 622 00:50:43.159 --> 00:50:46.039 had a lot of power. Uh, he did. I think the key 623 00:50:46.119 --> 00:50:51.559 one is the is that Monterey meeting of the flag officers that said, yeah, 624 00:50:51.599 --> 00:50:53.679 he's he's uh, the biggest problem we have in the Navy, but 625 00:50:54.519 --> 00:50:58.599 he's got Congress on his side, so we just have to deal with him. 626 00:50:59.360 --> 00:51:00.719 But to get back to a point about athletics, Yeah, he actually 627 00:51:00.719 --> 00:51:04.960 makes a lot of comments about that. He's one of the comments he makes 628 00:51:05.039 --> 00:51:09.719 to an efficient biographer is, uh, you know the biograph saying you know 629 00:51:09.800 --> 00:51:15.440 what contributed most of your successes is well, while I was studying, the 630 00:51:15.519 --> 00:51:20.400 other officers were playing golf. And that's the difference. He certainly didn't have 631 00:51:20.559 --> 00:51:23.360 love for, you know, some of the athletic programs because it took away 632 00:51:23.440 --> 00:51:28.679 from the mission of what the Navy was supposed to do. So yeah, 633 00:51:28.719 --> 00:51:35.159 he didn't endear himself with some people, and that goes to organizations as well. 634 00:51:36.599 --> 00:51:42.079 Yeah, yeah, I think the yeah that he wasn't a raw, 635 00:51:42.199 --> 00:51:45.159 raw Naval Academy graduate where it couldn't do no wrong. I think he was 636 00:51:45.440 --> 00:51:52.039 as as critical and blunt and upfront with the expectations he had of the institutions 637 00:51:52.079 --> 00:51:55.639 that he deemed were important or should be important as he was with himself. 638 00:51:55.679 --> 00:52:00.800 So I guess it's it's fair in the reading that he affected no more of 639 00:52:01.079 --> 00:52:05.880 other people he didn't expect of himself. And you see that arc too, 640 00:52:06.039 --> 00:52:13.039 and something that every naval person is familiar with in the US, and especially 641 00:52:13.119 --> 00:52:16.360 those who spend way too much time in DC buffed into all the time, 642 00:52:16.920 --> 00:52:22.039 and that's the US Naval Institute and Proceedings. And the first time that we 643 00:52:22.159 --> 00:52:25.760 see it mentioned in the letters is again a letter in Ruth in nineteen thirty 644 00:52:25.800 --> 00:52:31.000 five where Proceedings was still paying authors. And let's see I did write that 645 00:52:31.079 --> 00:52:36.519 in my notes here. I think it was an article quote on international law 646 00:52:36.599 --> 00:52:38.840 in the Submarine in nineteen thirty five. It must have been after he got 647 00:52:38.880 --> 00:52:44.079 through reading his German where he was happy that he got money in the mail 648 00:52:44.159 --> 00:52:46.679 because they didn't pay naval officers all that much during the height of the depression. 649 00:52:47.440 --> 00:52:53.480 But then again, the wealth of information we have half a century fifty 650 00:52:53.599 --> 00:52:59.360 years later. By the time we reached the mid eighties, he has gone 651 00:52:59.400 --> 00:53:05.559 through a comp arc of his feelings towards and his expectations of the Naval Institute 652 00:53:05.679 --> 00:53:08.719 and proceedings. It's a really interesting arc about not only the person but the 653 00:53:08.800 --> 00:53:14.159 institution as well. Yeah, what I thought was interesting, And of course, 654 00:53:14.360 --> 00:53:17.039 you know, the Institute is always touting that Rick Over wrote for them 655 00:53:17.079 --> 00:53:21.960 as as a junior officer. However, when you're reading these letters and he's 656 00:53:21.960 --> 00:53:25.719 writing to and from Ruth again, he really keep in mind that this article 657 00:53:25.880 --> 00:53:32.400 was probably either co written or certainly highly influenced by Ruth because they started writing 658 00:53:32.480 --> 00:53:37.519 about this topic about five years before the articles published, so this is a 659 00:53:37.599 --> 00:53:42.960 long term thing, and she had more expertise in international relations obviously. But 660 00:53:43.079 --> 00:53:45.920 the only thing he really mentions when it's publishes, Oh, I got my 661 00:53:45.000 --> 00:53:49.840 check from the Institute and that's it. It's not like, hey, I 662 00:53:49.920 --> 00:53:52.079 was published by the Naval Institute. Didn't matter to him. And then Ruth 663 00:53:52.159 --> 00:53:55.639 makes a comment, well, I read who I read the article? That 664 00:53:55.719 --> 00:54:00.199 won the General Essay, and it seems like they're just like three things you 665 00:54:00.280 --> 00:54:05.880 have to do, talk in some you know, keywords, and talk about 666 00:54:05.920 --> 00:54:08.159 a big navy and something else, and then they dismiss it. And then 667 00:54:08.199 --> 00:54:12.440 in the fifties and sixties and seventies and eighties you start to see more of 668 00:54:12.559 --> 00:54:16.199 his letters to and from the Naval Institute, and at one point he resigns, 669 00:54:19.239 --> 00:54:23.000 then joins up again. He is displeased with the content that's being provided. 670 00:54:23.159 --> 00:54:27.320 He's he's pretty harsh. In fact, he writes to the one of 671 00:54:27.360 --> 00:54:31.000 the cnos like, why is the Naval publishing leadership articles by people who are 672 00:54:31.079 --> 00:54:36.960 lieutenant AG's and lieutenants? What do they know? Shouldn't we have business leaders 673 00:54:37.079 --> 00:54:40.159 or admirals writing about this? So he's pretty critical, and in fact maybe 674 00:54:40.199 --> 00:54:44.400 it was the Vice Chief. It was the Vice chief at that point said 675 00:54:44.440 --> 00:54:46.519 you know what, you're right, they shouldn't be doing that. But of 676 00:54:46.599 --> 00:54:52.360 course it continued. So, yeah, there's a lengthier history with the Naval 677 00:54:52.400 --> 00:54:58.159 Institute and Rickover. But again it hasn't some of the stuff hasn't come out. 678 00:54:59.079 --> 00:55:00.639 You know. It's the same when they talk about how Prebble Hall the 679 00:55:00.760 --> 00:55:05.880 Naval Kedemuseum was built by Naval Institute, and it's it's far more complex, 680 00:55:05.960 --> 00:55:08.400 and it's a story for another day, but it's not it's really not true. 681 00:55:08.440 --> 00:55:14.360 They provided a portion, but there's a reason they provided that because anyway, 682 00:55:14.719 --> 00:55:17.079 I'll leave it at that. So, yeah, but it's just one 683 00:55:17.199 --> 00:55:22.280 organization, and yeah, you could be critical of a lot of organizations because 684 00:55:22.599 --> 00:55:25.960 he expected better of everybody, including himself. He did not expect anything of 685 00:55:27.159 --> 00:55:30.159 anybody, whether it was working harder, learning more. And going back to 686 00:55:30.280 --> 00:55:35.559 your comment Eagle one, you know, certainly there were there was TV in 687 00:55:35.599 --> 00:55:38.760 the fifties, sixties and seventies, but I didn't see much indication that Rickover 688 00:55:39.119 --> 00:55:46.679 watched television much until he was really retired around eighty two eighty three. Before 689 00:55:46.800 --> 00:55:52.280 but before that, it's all it's all books. He's absorbing information at an 690 00:55:52.360 --> 00:55:57.440 incredible rate. I don't think I've ever seen evidence of a flag officer or 691 00:55:57.519 --> 00:56:05.960 any other officer as prolific in their reading as as rick Over. Yeah, 692 00:56:06.280 --> 00:56:09.360 I think he was. He was. So you know, one of the 693 00:56:09.519 --> 00:56:13.719 one of the interviews in the in the book is the one where he's talking 694 00:56:13.760 --> 00:56:19.960 to the young midshipman. I guess who majored in English literature? And and 695 00:56:20.639 --> 00:56:23.719 he asked this this young man, uh, you know, who are your 696 00:56:23.800 --> 00:56:29.920 favorite poets? And you know, he lists a number of names, and 697 00:56:29.960 --> 00:56:32.880 then they started asking questions about this bos and this kid knows nothing, you 698 00:56:32.960 --> 00:56:36.679 know, I mean, he couldn't remember the dates, you didn't know what, 699 00:56:36.920 --> 00:56:40.079 you know, who wrote, who wrote on a Grecian arth. It 700 00:56:40.239 --> 00:56:45.760 was it was you know, what what what? What education did this kid 701 00:56:46.000 --> 00:56:50.679 have? And how ared he apply to himself if he if he didn't know 702 00:56:50.800 --> 00:56:54.239 somebody? And rick Over was not looking for people to memorize stuff, but 703 00:56:54.360 --> 00:56:58.920 he did think that if he had studied English literature, how to know something 704 00:56:58.920 --> 00:57:01.280 about English literature? And I thought that was just that was just perfect. 705 00:57:01.360 --> 00:57:07.280 That was one of those those one of those great questions and interviews that so 706 00:57:07.400 --> 00:57:13.559 it was a good point. Yeah. Certain Also he also, yeah, 707 00:57:13.599 --> 00:57:17.679 I also hated administrators. I mean just the concept of people being in charge 708 00:57:17.719 --> 00:57:22.559 of people who who administrated I guess, I mean there's a he was really 709 00:57:22.599 --> 00:57:29.559 gone off on this in one of his speeches, and you know that there's 710 00:57:29.559 --> 00:57:34.679 a whole unnecessary layer of the bodies and the way of getting things done to 711 00:57:34.960 --> 00:57:37.599 kind of talk about that a little bit. Sorry, even when you broke 712 00:57:37.639 --> 00:57:45.719 off the bodies the body, Yeah, the bodies of administrators who've got in 713 00:57:45.760 --> 00:57:50.920 the way of actually accomplishing or anything. I you know, I know, 714 00:57:51.039 --> 00:57:53.559 we don't have a lot of time left both. I will say this regarding 715 00:57:53.719 --> 00:57:59.320 all the administrators. There was the Night of the Long Eyes and Rick Over 716 00:57:59.480 --> 00:58:02.920 lost his power in eighty one eighty two. And this was told to me 717 00:58:04.000 --> 00:58:07.320 actually by a vice admiral who was one of his contemporaries. He's still alive, 718 00:58:07.079 --> 00:58:12.039 class of nineteen fifty and he was a vice admiral during Carter's administration, 719 00:58:13.400 --> 00:58:15.960 and he said, you know, Claude, I think his biggest problem was 720 00:58:16.280 --> 00:58:22.400 once the members of Congress and senators who started either losing their elections or dying 721 00:58:22.679 --> 00:58:27.159 because they were older by then, he didn't have as much power on Capitol 722 00:58:27.199 --> 00:58:31.639 Hill. And would that I'll use your term, the administrators could move in 723 00:58:31.760 --> 00:58:37.679 for the kill. And that's what I think. People have long memories and 724 00:58:37.800 --> 00:58:46.800 they seize that opportunity. Yeah, power can be ethereal at this when you 725 00:58:46.920 --> 00:58:52.840 lose your access to people in influence. Those that are still around that don't 726 00:58:52.039 --> 00:58:58.400 wish you well, they can they can always be always be very careful around 727 00:58:58.480 --> 00:59:02.280 long dwel bureaucrats. It's a good rule to use. As we're getting near 728 00:59:02.360 --> 00:59:06.320 the top of the hour, Claude, I wanted to pull out one part 729 00:59:06.920 --> 00:59:09.880 from towards the end of the collection. This is from nineteen eighty three, 730 00:59:10.199 --> 00:59:15.639 and ironically it takes place right after what we were talking about a few minutes 731 00:59:15.639 --> 00:59:20.559 ago about the Lieutenant Jgs telling everybody how to be a great leader. It 732 00:59:20.679 --> 00:59:25.039 was a conversation with Admiral Watkins. This is a phone conversation the transcript of 733 00:59:25.119 --> 00:59:30.000 it that was put in later and right after say how ludicrous what that was? 734 00:59:30.159 --> 00:59:36.239 Admiral Watkins asked him, quote how was your trip to China? And 735 00:59:36.400 --> 00:59:42.920 Rick Over responded, and again this is nineteen eighty three, and I'll just 736 00:59:43.000 --> 00:59:45.840 break in here. You know, there's been a lot of people in the 737 00:59:45.960 --> 00:59:51.559 last five ten years and all of a sudden sobered up about the People's Republic 738 00:59:51.639 --> 00:59:57.719 of China and their navy, and a lot of us, a lot of 739 00:59:57.760 --> 01:00:01.480 the people who are one, two three star animals right now, senior captains. 740 01:00:01.519 --> 01:00:06.239 We all grew up hearing about how primitive it was, and oh, 741 01:00:06.280 --> 01:00:07.719 all these people are surprised. They should not have been surprised because it was 742 01:00:07.760 --> 01:00:12.119 well known. And Rickover is one of those people that tried to warn people. 743 01:00:12.159 --> 01:00:15.199 And again this is January of nineteen eighty three, Rickover responding to Watkin 744 01:00:15.239 --> 01:00:21.320 about his recent trip to the People's Republic of China. Rickover, it was 745 01:00:21.440 --> 01:00:24.599 well, I was well received there. Don't kid yourself about their navy. 746 01:00:25.039 --> 01:00:30.639 They are first rate and anyone who thinks otherwise should be aware. Their ships 747 01:00:30.679 --> 01:00:36.840 are among the cleanest I've ever seen, Watkins surprise Watson. Watkins replied, 748 01:00:37.239 --> 01:00:42.639 quote absolutely, although their ships are predominantly old, there's sailors are superb. 749 01:00:43.039 --> 01:00:46.719 They are standing seafarers. And I agree that anyone who puts their navy down 750 01:00:47.119 --> 01:00:52.360 does not know the facts. End quote. And I think that that was 751 01:00:52.599 --> 01:00:57.599 just a great eye opener to people who when they read that, they should 752 01:00:57.639 --> 01:01:00.519 back up and go Okay. If two of the most powerful and influential people 753 01:01:00.559 --> 01:01:05.960 in the navy knew this about the People's Republic of China, and if you 754 01:01:06.239 --> 01:01:08.440 track your economic growth from maybe three to now, you can have a rough 755 01:01:08.519 --> 01:01:15.840 corollary to the military. Why did that not sink in earlier? And there's 756 01:01:15.920 --> 01:01:20.639 people who I'm sure can get their PhDs on that as well. I thought 757 01:01:20.760 --> 01:01:23.960 that was a neat Easter egg to see. And this is Rick Over, 758 01:01:24.079 --> 01:01:30.280 somebody who at that point had forty five years to look at China because as 759 01:01:30.360 --> 01:01:35.719 a as the CEO of a small ship in the late nineteen thirties, he 760 01:01:35.960 --> 01:01:39.519 was right there in the heart of the growing conflict between China and Japan. 761 01:01:39.679 --> 01:01:45.639 And I think thirty six through thirty eight. Yeah, definitely, he was 762 01:01:45.679 --> 01:01:50.800 there mostly in thirty seven and I think part of thirty eight as he's watching 763 01:01:50.880 --> 01:01:55.440 this and any treks across part of Asia to sensibly meet up with the roots. 764 01:01:55.480 --> 01:01:58.760 He wasn't able to meet up with her, I think in India was 765 01:01:59.559 --> 01:02:04.840 but he writes a very lengthy assessment about his route and sends it to the 766 01:02:04.880 --> 01:02:09.280 Office of Naval Intelligence and a copy is in this. He'd made a great 767 01:02:09.320 --> 01:02:14.920 intelligence officer. He was. He was in Israel and Egypt in the seventies 768 01:02:15.159 --> 01:02:21.239 and early eighties, so he's being given, uh, you know, the 769 01:02:21.320 --> 01:02:25.440 red carpet treatment to everybody. At one point he's over in the Soviet Union 770 01:02:25.559 --> 01:02:30.000 with Vice President Nixon. That's how they established their relationship. During the Eisenhower 771 01:02:30.039 --> 01:02:34.880 administration and they're talking back and forth. He remember when we were on this 772 01:02:35.039 --> 01:02:43.840 ship and you ask this question, and well we've we've eaten up the hour. 773 01:02:44.440 --> 01:02:46.440 This is this book. I think many people will be surprised by, 774 01:02:47.719 --> 01:02:52.079 as you said, the human side of Ricover, because most people, including 775 01:02:52.199 --> 01:02:59.599 my generation of naval officers, knew only the cantankerous reputation. And with you 776 01:02:59.679 --> 01:03:01.679 ever and Marryland Naval ship Guard, when he was going to make an appearance 777 01:03:01.800 --> 01:03:07.360 that the the recover is coming, recover is coming, you know, like 778 01:03:07.719 --> 01:03:10.039 like some fearsome giant. And he is a fearsome giant in a lot of 779 01:03:10.079 --> 01:03:16.559 ways because he led this country into a into a the leading position of the 780 01:03:16.760 --> 01:03:20.440 enterprise that he was in charge of. And you can't say more than that 781 01:03:20.599 --> 01:03:22.960 for a for a for a man who work as hard as he did, 782 01:03:23.039 --> 01:03:25.599 it was a great job. Anyway, I think this book is is a 783 01:03:25.679 --> 01:03:30.159 brilliant addition to the to the Ricover story and I hope it to hope it 784 01:03:30.239 --> 01:03:35.000 does very well. Thanks thanks for being with us today, Claud. Thanks 785 01:03:35.039 --> 01:03:38.800 guys, I appreciate it, and again thanks Claud for coming on and joining 786 01:03:38.880 --> 01:03:44.320 us. And I think you're exactly right. The there are five or six 787 01:03:44.480 --> 01:03:50.360 books that are are in this collection for for future people to be able to 788 01:03:50.719 --> 01:03:53.960 grab hold of and run with. And the resources and the work that the 789 01:03:54.840 --> 01:03:59.440 archivist and the library has done that you mentioned at the start of the show. 790 01:04:00.039 --> 01:04:02.360 I think is going to pay dividends for a long time. And personally, 791 01:04:02.480 --> 01:04:05.480 I would love to see they did it. They did a young Indiana 792 01:04:05.599 --> 01:04:11.519 Jones, how about a young Hymen and Ruth from his time when he turned 793 01:04:11.519 --> 01:04:15.480 over command in thirty seven in China to the world before the war. I'd 794 01:04:15.519 --> 01:04:19.320 watched that movie. But I wish you the best of the holiday season, 795 01:04:19.400 --> 01:04:23.079 Claude, and we look forward to having you on again sooner more than later. 796 01:04:24.719 --> 01:04:29.679 Thanks and thank you everybody for joining us for another edition in mid rats, 797 01:04:29.920 --> 01:04:31.480 and until next time, I hope everybody has a great Navy Day. 798 01:04:32.079 --> 01:04:47.920 Cheers. Mike wants to marry me and leave us. Friend, be comily 799 01:04:48.320 --> 01:05:00.719 for you being to blame hold me sit folding all the tame. It's a 800 01:05:00.000 --> 01:05:21.960 long way, in a long way, in a long way well lived. 801 01:05:25.239 --> 01:05:38.159 It's a long long way, but we've seen it a thousand times. Insurance 802 01:05:38.239 --> 01:05:43.440 companies using the same tired excuses not to pay. They'll say, you're really 803 01:05:43.519 --> 01:05:46.920 not hurt, or that your injury is from an old accident. 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