WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.480 --> 00:00:05.639 Hudson River Radio dot com. It beats listening to nothing. My goodness, 2 00:00:07.879 --> 00:00:15.359 being Frank right where the only way to be is Frank, only one and 3 00:00:15.599 --> 00:00:20.640 welcome to being Frank. We're the only way to be is Frank. I'm 4 00:00:20.679 --> 00:00:23.480 your host, Frank Lebono, and I'd like to thank you for joining us 5 00:00:23.559 --> 00:00:29.120 on what we like to call the Intelligent Conversation Podcast, where no conversation is 6 00:00:29.160 --> 00:00:33.759 out of bounds and all points of view are welcome. Now, to give 7 00:00:33.799 --> 00:00:37.200 you a little context, we go live to tape. We try to keep 8 00:00:37.240 --> 00:00:41.359 it as live as we can. And it's the ninth of November again a 9 00:00:41.399 --> 00:00:45.320 little bit of irrelevance because we do archive and tell you a little bit more 10 00:00:45.320 --> 00:00:49.520 about that little later on in the program. Well, AI, that is, 11 00:00:49.759 --> 00:00:54.600 artificial intelligence is back in the news once again. Obviously, it's a 12 00:00:54.640 --> 00:00:59.280 story that simply will not go away. At the end of October, President 13 00:00:59.359 --> 00:01:04.760 Joe Biden issued an executive order calling for the safe, secure, and trustworthy 14 00:01:04.799 --> 00:01:12.519 development and use of artificial intelligence. A recent CNN report on bizarre and blatantly 15 00:01:12.640 --> 00:01:19.439 false stories suddenly appearing on ms N claimed that this was being caused by the 16 00:01:19.480 --> 00:01:25.040 network's preference for using AI. Editors instead of human ones, and the last 17 00:01:25.079 --> 00:01:30.719 sticking point of the SAG after strike was resolved when media companies agreed to protect 18 00:01:30.760 --> 00:01:36.640 their members from the unauthorized use of AI generated images, scripts, sounds, 19 00:01:36.640 --> 00:01:40.879 and the like. So joining me once again is my go to guy on 20 00:01:41.040 --> 00:01:46.680 all things media, Fordham University professor, my colleague and frequent contributor to Being 21 00:01:46.719 --> 00:01:49.519 Frank, doctor Paul Levinson. Paul, thank you once again for joining us. 22 00:01:51.120 --> 00:01:53.480 Well, I'm really happy to be here. Let me just say though, 23 00:01:53.560 --> 00:01:57.799 very very quickly. You know, it's not just that we think this 24 00:01:57.840 --> 00:02:02.879 is highly intelligent conversation. Everyone in the universe has that opinion. I just 25 00:02:02.879 --> 00:02:06.760 wanted to make that point. Thank you, Paul. And I'm sure it's 26 00:02:06.959 --> 00:02:12.240 much to your credit because remember, part of Being Frank is falling all over 27 00:02:12.280 --> 00:02:16.039 yourself at one point. But we do have intelligent conversation because I have great 28 00:02:16.120 --> 00:02:20.639 guests and topics like yourself. You know, we try to do a fresh 29 00:02:20.680 --> 00:02:24.039 show. We're up to I'm counting we've done ninety five shows so far, 30 00:02:24.080 --> 00:02:28.800 and you've been a contributor on at least three or four at least. We 31 00:02:28.840 --> 00:02:34.120 always appreciate your honesty and intelligent conversation. Let's jump right in. Let's go 32 00:02:34.199 --> 00:02:38.520 with President Biden. An executive order. That's a big thing. Obviously, 33 00:02:38.520 --> 00:02:44.319 it's not something that's done every day on the safe, secure and trustworthy development 34 00:02:44.400 --> 00:02:47.560 and use of artificial intelligence. What does it mean? Why is it important? 35 00:02:49.280 --> 00:02:52.879 Well, to start with, I just want to dispose of some nonsense. 36 00:02:52.879 --> 00:02:57.319 And we've talked a little bit about this before. What Biden wasn't talking 37 00:02:57.360 --> 00:03:04.639 about is the completely signed fictional idea that somehow AI is going to get together 38 00:03:05.159 --> 00:03:09.840 and declare war on humanity and destroy us. That's the stuff of war games 39 00:03:10.199 --> 00:03:15.680 and the Terminator movies, etc. Etc. Great science fiction, nothing to 40 00:03:15.719 --> 00:03:21.840 do with current reality. But what Biden was talking about is indeed what you 41 00:03:22.120 --> 00:03:25.360 just mentioned. One of the things that he was concerned about is if you 42 00:03:25.520 --> 00:03:34.360 have AI controlling what gets displayed on a news site like the MSN news site, 43 00:03:34.599 --> 00:03:38.719 that is a very dangerous thing. And again not because the AI is 44 00:03:38.840 --> 00:03:45.159 evil or anything like that, but because the AI can be hacked and manipulated 45 00:03:45.439 --> 00:03:53.400 by evil human beings to do bad things. So anytime Lily on AI and 46 00:03:53.439 --> 00:04:00.280 you're blind to how that can be used to distort the truth, to hurt 47 00:04:00.319 --> 00:04:04.520 people, to spread misinformation. You're on a very very bad path, and 48 00:04:04.560 --> 00:04:09.599 we have to be very careful, and frankly, I think too much of 49 00:04:09.680 --> 00:04:15.039 what we're doing now in the news is relying on AI. If ever, 50 00:04:15.199 --> 00:04:20.480 there was something that the public needed to rely on the truth of what they're 51 00:04:20.519 --> 00:04:26.959 seeing in the news, at the very least, those decisions about what people 52 00:04:27.000 --> 00:04:30.800 see should be made by human beings, because you might find a human being 53 00:04:30.839 --> 00:04:36.560 who has bad judgment, but it's hard to hack a human being. Let's 54 00:04:36.600 --> 00:04:43.639 talk a little bit about the MSN situation as reported by CNN, and they 55 00:04:43.680 --> 00:04:49.879 interviewed former chief of editors, obviously a human being, who claims that MSN 56 00:04:50.040 --> 00:04:59.240 has gone almost almost exclusively to artificial intelligence as editors. How does that even 57 00:04:59.360 --> 00:05:03.519 work? I mean, can you explain it? I keep thinking it over 58 00:05:03.519 --> 00:05:08.519 and I'm not sure exactly how that would even work. Well, let's assume 59 00:05:08.560 --> 00:05:14.199 that there isn't any hacking. Even the system without hacking give you very dangerous 60 00:05:14.199 --> 00:05:20.759 and misleading information. For example, one of the commands that the system is 61 00:05:20.879 --> 00:05:27.399 given, let's say the input by the human being who's ultimately in charge of 62 00:05:27.439 --> 00:05:30.680 the system, is to go out and find a story every day about Joe 63 00:05:30.720 --> 00:05:36.160 Biden. And unless the system is also programmed, and this is a very 64 00:05:36.160 --> 00:05:42.720 difficult thing to do to know what is a false story and a true story, 65 00:05:43.160 --> 00:05:48.439 it might well find a very popular story about Joe Biden falling asleep during 66 00:05:48.480 --> 00:05:54.000 some ceremony, which was one of the stories that was highlighted in that CNN 67 00:05:54.120 --> 00:06:00.680 report. And unless there is again a built in mechanism in the AI to 68 00:06:00.279 --> 00:06:05.639 identify and give an alert when it's about to put a false story up there, 69 00:06:06.120 --> 00:06:13.480 we then the human viewers of these stories become vulnerable to receiving this dangerous 70 00:06:13.519 --> 00:06:17.720 misinformation. And that's what it always amounts to. We're still in the early 71 00:06:17.800 --> 00:06:27.199 stages of AI and this blind and increasing reliance on AI in places where it's 72 00:06:27.399 --> 00:06:32.160 dangerous. If the AI even makes an honest mistake, that's what's going to 73 00:06:32.240 --> 00:06:36.639 hurt us. If you think about AI in medicine and your AI is used 74 00:06:36.680 --> 00:06:41.800 to guide surgeons, it has all kinds of great things, but it's not 75 00:06:41.920 --> 00:06:46.480 as if human doctors walk out of the room and turn the blind eye to 76 00:06:46.560 --> 00:06:49.879 what the AI is suggesting. You know, maybe the AI is malfunctioning. 77 00:06:50.040 --> 00:06:55.680 They're not going to take a chance because there could literally kill someone and what 78 00:06:55.800 --> 00:07:00.240 our society needs to realize, I think, and what was very disturbing about 79 00:07:00.279 --> 00:07:06.000 that CNN report was we're being fed misinformation and that might be one of the 80 00:07:06.040 --> 00:07:11.639 reasons why Joe Biden is not doing that well in the polls, which are 81 00:07:11.720 --> 00:07:16.639 nonsense anyway, a here before an election. But we need to be increasingly 82 00:07:16.800 --> 00:07:23.759 careful. The more we rely on AI, the more vulnerable we are to 83 00:07:23.959 --> 00:07:29.319 the AI blindly doing something that's very mistaken. So, Paul, in your 84 00:07:29.360 --> 00:07:34.240 mind, then the hackers must have some plan, if you will. They 85 00:07:34.319 --> 00:07:40.360 must know how to use certain trigger words as you mentioned something along those lines, 86 00:07:40.839 --> 00:07:46.199 to fool AI. In other words, the story themselves are not AI 87 00:07:46.360 --> 00:07:50.040 generated. There's a human i e. A hacker who is creating these stories, 88 00:07:50.360 --> 00:07:55.959 and they must have some knowledge themselves in order to be able to word 89 00:07:56.079 --> 00:08:01.360 things so that AI is fooled. I guess yes, for lack of a 90 00:08:01.360 --> 00:08:05.439 better word, is that accurate? Yeah? And you know, one of 91 00:08:05.480 --> 00:08:09.240 the most common things is look for the most popular stories, or look for 92 00:08:09.319 --> 00:08:15.199 the most provocative stories, because that's what journalism does. You know. It 93 00:08:15.279 --> 00:08:20.439 gets back to you know, dog bites. Man. It's a little provocative, 94 00:08:20.439 --> 00:08:24.240 but it's not unusual. Man, bites dog that could make the front 95 00:08:24.279 --> 00:08:28.720 page. So the AIS program look for an unusual story regarding the President of 96 00:08:28.759 --> 00:08:35.960 the United States. He fell sound asleep at some kind of conference or wherever. 97 00:08:37.240 --> 00:08:41.519 That's a somewhat provocative story, and it even generates evidence there's a picture 98 00:08:41.519 --> 00:08:46.600 of him asleep, because that was false news to begin with. And the 99 00:08:46.679 --> 00:08:50.679 AI it's not that in that case, it's not that the AI was hacked. 100 00:08:50.679 --> 00:08:56.480 It's that the AI was poorly programmed in the first place to seek out 101 00:08:56.559 --> 00:09:01.320 popular stories without having some kind of safe god to make sure these stories are 102 00:09:01.399 --> 00:09:05.679 true. And let me just say, it's easy to see if the story 103 00:09:05.799 --> 00:09:09.080 is true. If you come across the story that Joe Biden fell asleep at 104 00:09:09.120 --> 00:09:13.840 such and such an event, and it looks to be true, you just 105 00:09:13.039 --> 00:09:18.480 check three or four other reliable sources. Is the New York Times reporting it, 106 00:09:18.559 --> 00:09:22.519 is even the Wall Street Journal reporting it, is NBC reporting it, 107 00:09:22.519 --> 00:09:26.799 et cetera, et cetera. If the story is true, it'll be multiply 108 00:09:26.000 --> 00:09:31.840 reported, and therefore no human being would go with that story. The AI 109 00:09:33.480 --> 00:09:37.679 needs to be better programmed. Well, you know, it's interesting in that 110 00:09:37.799 --> 00:09:41.960 you would mention it because something happened on social media a few years ago. 111 00:09:43.039 --> 00:09:48.279 It was Steve Jobs and his dying letter, and many people said, oh, 112 00:09:48.320 --> 00:09:52.480 it's you know, the theme of the letter was basically that money is 113 00:09:52.559 --> 00:09:56.120 great, but without feeling, without family, et cetera, it's really nothing. 114 00:09:56.159 --> 00:10:01.919 It's it's beautiful, but looking at on it and balance it again as 115 00:10:01.960 --> 00:10:07.639 a human being, if you will, not artificial intelligence, real intelligence, 116 00:10:07.679 --> 00:10:13.080 whatever real intelligence I do have. It struck me it was too perfect, 117 00:10:13.679 --> 00:10:20.279 if you will, and if he snopes it, google it, check it 118 00:10:20.320 --> 00:10:24.039 and other sources, it turned out to be false. Now there's another one 119 00:10:24.080 --> 00:10:28.759 making there is, and they're great sentiments. The sentiment was wonderful. And 120 00:10:28.799 --> 00:10:33.320 there's a recent one now with Einstein's daughter, who has now released a letter 121 00:10:33.759 --> 00:10:39.559 again one of these. To me, they're just overly sentimental, overly romanticized. 122 00:10:41.120 --> 00:10:48.799 To me, I think AI is actually making them by again knowing that, 123 00:10:48.919 --> 00:10:50.440 well, this will really appeal to people. Oh my god, it's 124 00:10:50.480 --> 00:10:56.639 Einstein and he breaks down. Well, Ian his famous theory of relativity really 125 00:10:56.679 --> 00:11:01.600 means this, that and the other thing. I got the exact same feeling, 126 00:11:01.679 --> 00:11:05.440 and I said, this just doesn't feel right. It's too perfect. 127 00:11:05.039 --> 00:11:11.320 It fits within what people would like to think instead of what's real? So 128 00:11:11.399 --> 00:11:15.639 of course I snoped it, checked it, and of course it's not real. 129 00:11:16.559 --> 00:11:22.679 But how do we program artificial intelligence on the other end to smell out 130 00:11:22.759 --> 00:11:26.600 a sense whatever? So something's fishing here. It's too good to be true, 131 00:11:26.679 --> 00:11:31.000 so it can't be true, and it isn't It wasn't. Well, 132 00:11:31.399 --> 00:11:35.039 if the AI is programmed to find the most provocative stories, which it makes 133 00:11:35.080 --> 00:11:39.399 sense that it would be what's going to go on the front page the most 134 00:11:39.399 --> 00:11:45.120 provocative news, as we just discussed, then you need to also program the 135 00:11:45.159 --> 00:11:50.759 AI. The more provocative it is, the more the AI needs to find 136 00:11:50.879 --> 00:11:54.799 confirmation in other sources. So that way. Again, it's not that AI 137 00:11:56.159 --> 00:12:01.039 is like overtaking us or too hard to control. It's a combination of things. 138 00:12:01.080 --> 00:12:05.799 First of all, we're learning to do this. Second of all, 139 00:12:05.919 --> 00:12:09.440 people are lazy, you know, they want to go with the easiest way 140 00:12:09.480 --> 00:12:13.879 of doing things. You know, it's very easy to put in an AI 141 00:12:15.360 --> 00:12:18.120 program in a variety of things and let the AI do it and you don't 142 00:12:18.120 --> 00:12:24.039 have to. You can also save money. I'm sure that's what motivated MS 143 00:12:24.120 --> 00:12:31.200 in every network has got to make their money, so they save money through 144 00:12:31.240 --> 00:12:35.120 AI. Wow. But I do think it's great that this was discovered because 145 00:12:35.240 --> 00:12:43.080 I think this will teach news organizations a lesson that they can't rely on AI, 146 00:12:43.720 --> 00:12:48.960 and especially if the AIS programmed to find interesting and then ratcheting it up 147 00:12:50.120 --> 00:12:56.799 more and more interesting provocative stories, because that, unfortunately feeds right into the 148 00:12:56.799 --> 00:13:01.919 most provocative stories are the ones that are usually false, but they're provocative because 149 00:13:01.919 --> 00:13:07.519 they're so unusual because they're false. So with that in mind, Paul, 150 00:13:09.240 --> 00:13:11.960 at some point in the chain, does it need to be checked by a 151 00:13:13.080 --> 00:13:18.000 human being? Yes, And Facebook has been struggling with this problem for a 152 00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:22.480 long time. And frankly, I don't believe anything that Facebook officially says. 153 00:13:22.759 --> 00:13:26.080 You know, from time to time you see these ludicrous ads on television that, 154 00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:31.759 oh, Facebook is trying to preserve the social fabric of this country, 155 00:13:31.919 --> 00:13:37.080 thanks very much. Rather than spending your millions or billions of dollars on an 156 00:13:37.080 --> 00:13:43.320 ad campaign, instead what they should do is hire more people to look at 157 00:13:43.399 --> 00:13:46.799 what is on their system. And this has been a problem with Facebook for 158 00:13:48.200 --> 00:13:54.279 a long time. You know, a few years ago everybody was concerned well 159 00:13:54.320 --> 00:13:58.320 with false stories that were on Facebook, and it turned out, why are 160 00:13:58.320 --> 00:14:03.720 there's so many false stories on face Facebook is because algorithms were determining what was 161 00:14:05.679 --> 00:14:09.960 should be on that site and what was false and not beyond that site. 162 00:14:09.039 --> 00:14:13.639 And the algorithms were imperfect. They always are, just like human beings are 163 00:14:13.639 --> 00:14:18.600 not perfect. But the algorithms were even more imperfect. And they did a 164 00:14:18.639 --> 00:14:26.240 combination of allowing false stories on the site and wrongly pulling out and censoring true 165 00:14:26.279 --> 00:14:33.360 stories because it tripped off some kind of alert that the system was programmed to 166 00:14:33.440 --> 00:14:37.639 watch for, you know, regarding what you would be on Facebook site. 167 00:14:37.759 --> 00:14:46.080 But the remedy for that is to get people, not machines. Related story, 168 00:14:46.159 --> 00:14:50.559 Paul, and you mentioned Facebook and their responsibility. There's a large lawsuit 169 00:14:50.759 --> 00:15:01.320 I believe it's being filed in California that is claiming that Facebook deliberately as fostered 170 00:15:01.399 --> 00:15:07.480 an environment that's harmful to young people. Your thoughts on that, well, 171 00:15:07.759 --> 00:15:11.080 I didn't see that, But that art is it's saying harmful to young people 172 00:15:11.159 --> 00:15:18.120 who are working at Facebook are harmful. No for for consumers a Facebook again, 173 00:15:18.320 --> 00:15:24.679 these algorithms and again all relative that they target kids love this stuff. 174 00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:28.919 Nobody's checking whether it's healthy stuff or not. It's exciting to them, so 175 00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:35.080 it goes okay. There's been a concern, maybe now as long as ten 176 00:15:35.200 --> 00:15:43.840 years, certainly five years, about how social media is endangering the mental health 177 00:15:43.879 --> 00:15:52.039 of adolescents and even younger kids. And what sided is an increase in suicide 178 00:15:52.159 --> 00:15:58.080 rates. You know, these are serious problems. Every time I've looked into 179 00:15:58.159 --> 00:16:03.600 those things, and every time I've done some research, Unfortunately, suicide rates 180 00:16:03.639 --> 00:16:07.799 have fluctuated up and down for as long as people have been keeping track of 181 00:16:07.799 --> 00:16:14.240 that, And I tend to think that although what kids, and for that 182 00:16:14.320 --> 00:16:19.840 matter, everyone what they see on social media, although that does factor into 183 00:16:21.279 --> 00:16:27.200 how they feel about themselves, usually what goes on in real person to person 184 00:16:27.279 --> 00:16:34.240 interactions are much much more significant. So I would have to look at this 185 00:16:34.320 --> 00:16:41.840 particular study. Maybe it is a very well conducted, carefully controlled study, 186 00:16:41.480 --> 00:16:48.960 but I do think it's Psychologists in general are a little too quick nowadays to 187 00:16:49.600 --> 00:16:55.480 worry about social media. And this actually leads to another point which we probably 188 00:16:55.519 --> 00:17:00.679 don't have all that much time to discuss. But the word addiction I think 189 00:17:00.840 --> 00:17:07.359 is often too loosely used. Addiction is properly used when it comes to something 190 00:17:07.839 --> 00:17:15.559 like heroin or crack cocaine or alcohol, and the way that works is your 191 00:17:15.599 --> 00:17:19.640 body becomes accustomed to it, you need more and more, and you tragically 192 00:17:19.680 --> 00:17:23.559 eventually can take so much of it you die as a result of it. 193 00:17:23.880 --> 00:17:32.720 That's addiction. That's not the case with any kind of communication interaction. And 194 00:17:32.759 --> 00:17:36.000 I remember, you know, years ago, when we first started going up 195 00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:41.039 to Cape Cod, we had no television in the house that we rented, 196 00:17:41.279 --> 00:17:44.319 and I would watch a lot of television. And I remember I was telling 197 00:17:44.359 --> 00:17:48.279 the kids in my class in like, you know, April May, I'm 198 00:17:48.319 --> 00:17:51.480 going up to Cape Cod and they would say, oh, Professor Levinson, 199 00:17:51.720 --> 00:17:55.359 You're going to really go crazy up there if you have no television, because 200 00:17:55.359 --> 00:17:57.839 I would talk to them about everything I was seeing on television. And I 201 00:17:57.920 --> 00:18:03.720 discovered very quickly when I went up to Cape Cart I didn't care about television. 202 00:18:03.039 --> 00:18:07.559 I'm a human being. I was more interested in other things, going 203 00:18:07.599 --> 00:18:11.240 swimming, taking walks, whatever it was I was doing. My point being 204 00:18:11.599 --> 00:18:21.480 that interactions with social media, our secondary interactions. They do have impact on 205 00:18:21.599 --> 00:18:27.599 us, but what really determines whether people are anxious and depressed are the relationships 206 00:18:27.599 --> 00:18:36.519 they have with other human beings, the full real life interactions well, it's 207 00:18:37.599 --> 00:18:41.400 continue with our AI discussion now too. And it's all relative. These things 208 00:18:41.400 --> 00:18:45.319 are all interrelated. On the SAG after strike, which went on for a 209 00:18:45.359 --> 00:18:48.759 long time, I think, the longest in the history of the industry, 210 00:18:49.240 --> 00:18:55.720 and the major sticking point seem to be the use of AI generated images and 211 00:18:55.759 --> 00:19:03.200 that included voice face scripts. It's after the chat g PC gamest I so 212 00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:07.680 don't use it. I can't even say it. Uh, but you know, 213 00:19:07.880 --> 00:19:11.480 interestingly, and I have to point something out and and we'll get back 214 00:19:11.519 --> 00:19:15.039 on track. But it is is relative. A really good friend of mine 215 00:19:15.079 --> 00:19:21.000 was performing at the legendary Turning Point in Piermont the other night and he mentioned 216 00:19:21.039 --> 00:19:22.920 how he was stuck on a song that he was writing, kind of a 217 00:19:22.920 --> 00:19:29.119 protest song about crooked politicians, and he was curious, so he went to 218 00:19:29.279 --> 00:19:37.119 chat thank you, Paul, and it was just curious as to how they 219 00:19:37.200 --> 00:19:41.440 might resolve it. Uh. And he read it and it was it was 220 00:19:41.599 --> 00:19:45.839 excellent. I mean, it was really good, and you know, the 221 00:19:45.880 --> 00:19:48.759 audience was torn and you know, so don't do it, don't do it. 222 00:19:48.160 --> 00:19:55.000 But the temptation was was was certainly there, and really it worked with 223 00:19:55.079 --> 00:19:57.839 what he had led into and was would would lead out of it was just 224 00:19:57.880 --> 00:20:03.240 that kind of missing piece, and it was really it was really well done, 225 00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:07.480 so kind of as a tool. He certainly made it his own, 226 00:20:07.680 --> 00:20:12.839 but it was generated not entirely by himself. So there's an image of an 227 00:20:12.920 --> 00:20:18.000 artist using it. But sometimes the artists get used. And this was the 228 00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:22.640 big sticking point where studios felt they, you know, they could just take 229 00:20:22.680 --> 00:20:30.279 an image and using artificial intelligence, create their own scenarios with them, sell, 230 00:20:30.519 --> 00:20:33.519 buy, et cetera. Your thoughts, well, let me just say, 231 00:20:33.599 --> 00:20:37.119 as far as you know the story of your friend, I remember, 232 00:20:37.400 --> 00:20:42.039 you know, fifteen twenty years ago, I was writing a story, a 233 00:20:42.079 --> 00:20:45.880 science fiction story, and you know how it isn't writing. It's not good 234 00:20:45.880 --> 00:20:52.720 to use the same word too often because it bothers the reader and it's lazy. 235 00:20:52.119 --> 00:20:57.240 And so whatever the word I had used, I wanted that exact word 236 00:20:57.799 --> 00:21:03.119 and I didn't want to use it again. And so you know what I 237 00:21:03.160 --> 00:21:07.599 did is I went online, not AI, but I looked up synonym synonyms 238 00:21:07.839 --> 00:21:11.559 for that word. So in a way, wasn't that AI. In otherwise 239 00:21:11.599 --> 00:21:17.319 I didn't think of what the second word would be. I looked online for 240 00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:21.519 that word. It's a tool, that's right. The source is a tool 241 00:21:21.720 --> 00:21:26.759 that's right when necessary, and AI could could be a tool when necessary that's 242 00:21:26.839 --> 00:21:30.319 right. So I don't hold it against that author that that author did that. 243 00:21:30.880 --> 00:21:36.640 Now I can't imagine seeking help through AI if I'm writing a story. 244 00:21:37.039 --> 00:21:42.119 I like agonizing over the story of the block ten times. I like driving 245 00:21:42.160 --> 00:21:45.319 my wife crazy. Hey, honey, what do you think of this? 246 00:21:45.480 --> 00:21:48.519 I do that, you know, that's the way I do it. But 247 00:21:48.799 --> 00:21:55.000 you know, I wouldn't lash out at writers who find some benefit from using 248 00:21:55.000 --> 00:21:57.960 AI. Now, as far as the writers strike, I am delighted that 249 00:21:59.000 --> 00:22:04.279 they were able to get a decent offer from the studios on this. Absolutely 250 00:22:04.319 --> 00:22:10.160 what the studios were originally trying to peddle is okay, we'll pay you, 251 00:22:10.759 --> 00:22:15.680 and not that much anyway. So they got a nice raise, but will 252 00:22:15.079 --> 00:22:18.880 the actors got a nice raise, but the students saying, we'll pay you. 253 00:22:18.920 --> 00:22:21.400 But you know, when it comes to AI, you know that's our 254 00:22:21.440 --> 00:22:23.559 property. Once we pay you, we have a right to use your image. 255 00:22:23.640 --> 00:22:26.960 We can feed it into you know, an AI program and use it 256 00:22:27.000 --> 00:22:34.000 again in another movie. And I think the actors absolutely should get paid for 257 00:22:34.039 --> 00:22:38.920 that, and they should get paid a decent amount now fair enough, not 258 00:22:40.119 --> 00:22:45.119 as much as when they're acting in person, because that's much more work than 259 00:22:45.200 --> 00:22:49.599 somebody it takes an AI image and uses it. But they absolutely should get 260 00:22:49.640 --> 00:22:53.720 paid a substantial amount. I'm not privy to what the sentiment was, so 261 00:22:53.799 --> 00:22:59.160 I don't know how much that was. Yeah, but I'm glad the actors 262 00:22:59.200 --> 00:23:03.240 are happy about that, and I applaud that. I think that's a very 263 00:23:03.319 --> 00:23:10.400 good thing, and the actors were right to hold fast on that. Now, 264 00:23:10.720 --> 00:23:14.440 Uh, let's talk about some of the upsides. And you are, 265 00:23:14.640 --> 00:23:21.240 as I mentioned with my good friend Jerry POTENTI, the foremost beatlemaniacs that I 266 00:23:21.319 --> 00:23:27.319 know. Uh you, uh, you have your your story now and then 267 00:23:29.359 --> 00:23:34.240 an alternative reality of the Beatles and and uh recently, let's get to the 268 00:23:34.279 --> 00:23:41.119 point. There was a song that was built by AI around the demo tape, 269 00:23:41.160 --> 00:23:44.359 as I believe from John Lennon. Tell us a little bit about how 270 00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:47.880 it was created, and really, what do you think of it? Well, 271 00:23:47.920 --> 00:23:51.200 first of all, the name of my story is It's real life. 272 00:23:51.319 --> 00:23:56.359 That's the name of the story. The name of the Beatles dog is now 273 00:23:56.400 --> 00:24:00.880 and then now and then I have my notes and they read them back. 274 00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:04.680 Thank you, Paul, all right, but it's a good title for an 275 00:24:04.680 --> 00:24:11.920 excellent song. Listen. I know a lot of people are throwing this around, 276 00:24:11.160 --> 00:24:17.240 but AI has literally including Paul McCartney at one point, like a year 277 00:24:17.319 --> 00:24:22.319 or two ago. AI has nothing to do with this Beatles record. And 278 00:24:22.759 --> 00:24:27.599 here is what I'm getting at. John Lennon, you know, made a 279 00:24:27.680 --> 00:24:33.079 demo. There was there were problems with the demo. This is up Now 280 00:24:33.119 --> 00:24:38.200 and Then. That's why when the Beatles did a great job in nineteen ninety 281 00:24:38.200 --> 00:24:45.119 five and nineteen ninety six putting the Beatles into John Lennon's demo of Free as 282 00:24:45.160 --> 00:24:51.960 a Bird and then Real Love, that's why they couldn't do it with Now 283 00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:57.240 and Then. Because Lennon's voice was mixed in with the piano and parts of 284 00:24:57.279 --> 00:25:00.960 the recording the piano was loud than his voice and there was no way to 285 00:25:02.079 --> 00:25:08.519 separate his voice from the piano. So all that happened in this recording is 286 00:25:10.559 --> 00:25:17.799 they recording engineers figured out a way using I guess you could call it AI 287 00:25:18.359 --> 00:25:22.880 to separate the voice from the track. But this is not the first time 288 00:25:23.359 --> 00:25:33.920 that some kind of artificial thing which we've been manipulating music for so you know, 289 00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:37.559 on the topic of John Lennon, one of my favorite John Lennon songs, 290 00:25:37.640 --> 00:25:40.759 he actually didn't like it, but I love it. It's only love, 291 00:25:41.359 --> 00:25:48.559 I get how and I see you walk by mile just this is a 292 00:25:48.680 --> 00:25:52.519 great song. I love that song. Lennon heard the recording of it and 293 00:25:53.000 --> 00:25:56.680 thought his voice didn't sound good. He was never happy with his voice. 294 00:25:56.720 --> 00:26:02.519 That was just one of his, you know, his personality traits. And 295 00:26:02.599 --> 00:26:06.799 so George Martin, a genius producer, says, I tell you what, 296 00:26:06.960 --> 00:26:11.640 let me bring you back into the studio and we will record you on another 297 00:26:11.920 --> 00:26:18.079 track singing the same part. So we'll have you two. John Lennon's singing 298 00:26:18.119 --> 00:26:22.119 in unison. And by the way, this is something that Les Paul had 299 00:26:22.160 --> 00:26:26.599 developed like ten years earlier, doing harmony to yourself. No human being can 300 00:26:26.640 --> 00:26:30.559 do harmony to him or herself. No human being can sing in unison to 301 00:26:30.640 --> 00:26:36.359 him or herself. Obviously only a technology could do that. So that was 302 00:26:36.400 --> 00:26:42.279 a very primitive but ryand technique. I think that is no different than principle 303 00:26:44.079 --> 00:26:49.599 than what Paul McCartney and the other people who worked on this original demo did 304 00:26:51.039 --> 00:26:55.559 with now and then and by the way. I think it's a beautiful song. 305 00:26:56.480 --> 00:26:59.200 What do you think of it? I think it's great, And you 306 00:26:59.240 --> 00:27:02.640 know, I have to say I'm surprised. I've seen some criticisms of it. 307 00:27:03.240 --> 00:27:07.240 I saw some last last out at the lyrics. Okay, look, 308 00:27:07.279 --> 00:27:11.799 it's not you know, A Day in the Life, it's not Strawberry Fields. 309 00:27:12.000 --> 00:27:15.519 You know, it's not the best of you John Lennon songs. But 310 00:27:15.559 --> 00:27:18.559 I just was sinking, it's only love. I get high when I see 311 00:27:18.599 --> 00:27:22.279 you walk by. My, oh my, Are those great lyrics? No, 312 00:27:22.400 --> 00:27:26.400 it's the whole thing together. So I thought the lyrics were good enough. 313 00:27:26.839 --> 00:27:32.880 I think the melody is haunting and effective. And here's where I think 314 00:27:32.960 --> 00:27:37.640 McCartney also came in. He did a great job, putting in a new 315 00:27:37.720 --> 00:27:41.839 bass, putting in an additional guitar part they already had George Harrison. It 316 00:27:41.960 --> 00:27:45.720 was very poignant. I mean I was moved to tears when I first heard 317 00:27:45.799 --> 00:27:49.920 it and saw the video. I mean, they put together so many parts, 318 00:27:51.319 --> 00:27:55.720 and you know, including a guitar part that George Harrison put in in 319 00:27:55.839 --> 00:27:59.880 nineteen ninety six. But again, they didn't think Lennon's voice was strong and 320 00:28:00.240 --> 00:28:03.599 to put it out as a record, so they worked really hard on it. 321 00:28:03.680 --> 00:28:07.160 And it's not the best song the Beatles ever did, but it's not 322 00:28:07.240 --> 00:28:11.200 the worst song. You know. I like it a lot, you know, 323 00:28:11.319 --> 00:28:19.920 better than Paul McCartney's you know, Maxwell's Silver Hammer, or or even 324 00:28:21.000 --> 00:28:23.359 John Lennon's Happiness is a Warm Gun. I mean, is that a great 325 00:28:23.559 --> 00:28:27.799 It's all right. It's a little frankly stupid, nobvious, So you know, 326 00:28:29.200 --> 00:28:33.519 it's a middle of the road in between the Beatles best and worst. 327 00:28:34.160 --> 00:28:38.359 But since it's the Beatles, I think it's a great addition to their openers. 328 00:28:40.640 --> 00:28:45.559 Oh well, you take a break. When we come back, I 329 00:28:45.799 --> 00:28:51.839 put your professorial media professorial head on once again, and we'll talk a little 330 00:28:51.839 --> 00:28:55.279 bit about the First Amendments. And I know you are an expert in addition 331 00:28:55.680 --> 00:28:59.279 on the First Amendment. And it keeps popping up with the current trial in 332 00:28:59.359 --> 00:29:03.759 New York with the gag order with former President Donald Trump, who claims he 333 00:29:03.839 --> 00:29:08.200 has a right to say what he feels, and the judge pushes back and 334 00:29:08.240 --> 00:29:11.759 says, well, maybe not. I want to get your feelings on that. 335 00:29:12.119 --> 00:29:15.960 We're going to take a quick break. My very special guest tonight is 336 00:29:17.000 --> 00:29:22.359 my colleague and Fordham University media professor, doctor Paul Levinson. I'm your host, 337 00:29:22.400 --> 00:29:25.880 Frank Lebaro. This is Being Frank. We're the only way to be 338 00:29:26.319 --> 00:29:30.440 is Frank, and we'll be right back with some more intelligent conversation right after 339 00:29:30.480 --> 00:29:36.880 these breed messages. Please don't go anywhere yet. This is Hudson River Radio 340 00:29:37.039 --> 00:29:41.880 dot com, your local Rockland County station. Bring a dash of green into 341 00:29:41.920 --> 00:29:45.319 your life. Check out The Many Shades of Green with Maxine, Margaret Rubin, 342 00:29:45.400 --> 00:29:51.720 and Malcolm Berman. Get informed about environmental issues and current events that affect 343 00:29:51.799 --> 00:29:56.160 us all. Pick a shade of green and raise your eco consciousness with the 344 00:29:56.279 --> 00:30:02.519 Many Shades of Green. Available on Apple Podcasts, iHeart, Spotify or wherever 345 00:30:02.559 --> 00:30:08.759 you get your podcasts. Check out The angel Quest Show with psychic media and 346 00:30:08.920 --> 00:30:15.319 author Karen Nowe. Karen covers spiritual topics such as near death experiences, reincarnation, 347 00:30:15.799 --> 00:30:19.680 life after death, how your thoughts create your reality, creating peace on 348 00:30:19.759 --> 00:30:25.160 Earth, and so much more. Check out The angel Quest Show on Apple 349 00:30:25.200 --> 00:30:36.920 Podcasts, iHeart, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hudsonriverradio dot 350 00:30:36.920 --> 00:30:44.359 Com. Welcome back to Being Frank, The Intelligent Conversation podcast. Thanks for 351 00:30:44.440 --> 00:30:47.839 sticking with us. I'm your host, Frank Lebuono. You know we bring 352 00:30:47.880 --> 00:30:52.079 our audience a fresh topic every week, premiering on Thursday nights. We stream 353 00:30:52.119 --> 00:30:57.559 from Hudson River Radio, located in beautiful and historic Stony Point, New York. 354 00:30:57.960 --> 00:31:03.720 But you can catch Being Frank anywhere you get your favorite podcasts like Apple, 355 00:31:03.240 --> 00:31:08.960 Spotify, iHeartRadio and all the others. And because every Being Frank is 356 00:31:10.119 --> 00:31:14.960 archived, you can listen to any of our programs anytime you like. You 357 00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:18.920 can find a link to Being Frank on the Hudson River Radio Facebook page or 358 00:31:19.039 --> 00:31:26.440 at our website Hudsonriverradio dot com. That's Hudson Riverradio dot com. Just click 359 00:31:26.519 --> 00:31:30.599 on the Being Frank site and you're there. Leave us a comment, and 360 00:31:30.680 --> 00:31:36.960 please consider subscribing to the podcast. If you really like us, share Being 361 00:31:37.039 --> 00:31:41.160 Frank with your family and friends. A very special guest, frequent contributor and 362 00:31:41.720 --> 00:31:48.359 media expert Fordham University professor doctor Paul Levinson. Paul, before the commercial break, 363 00:31:48.359 --> 00:31:52.119 we teased a little bit back in the news, just for a change, 364 00:31:52.200 --> 00:31:57.880 former President Donald Trump, but once again arguing the point where he has 365 00:31:57.920 --> 00:32:05.160 been given again order by the judge in his case in New York. After 366 00:32:05.240 --> 00:32:10.160 making certain threats and accusations against the judge and his staff, Trump pushes back 367 00:32:10.200 --> 00:32:16.440 and says he has a First Amendment right to speak his mind. Who's correct 368 00:32:16.440 --> 00:32:22.359 here? Well, unsurprisingly, Trump isn't correct. And let me broaden this 369 00:32:22.400 --> 00:32:25.720 discussion a little bit. You know, we've talked about this half a dozen 370 00:32:25.839 --> 00:32:32.319 times in the past couple of years. I always take pains to point out 371 00:32:32.880 --> 00:32:37.920 that, even though I'm pretty much of an absolutist regarding the First Amendment, 372 00:32:37.799 --> 00:32:45.039 the First Amendment does not protect speech that leads to criminality. It does not 373 00:32:45.400 --> 00:32:51.839 protect a bunch of people who are communicating for us at any distance about how 374 00:32:51.880 --> 00:32:58.160 to murder someone or rob a bank or any of those crimes. So, 375 00:32:58.279 --> 00:33:00.319 actually, before we even get to Trump, let me just say that, 376 00:33:00.400 --> 00:33:06.559 on a lot of campuses, and thank goodness, not on Fordham University's campus, 377 00:33:06.880 --> 00:33:10.519 but on a lot of campuses like Cornell University, Jewish students have been 378 00:33:10.680 --> 00:33:20.400 subject to all kinds of harassment and death threats by people who are opposing Israel. 379 00:33:20.720 --> 00:33:24.640 They are entitled to their views. They're entitled to criticize Israel as much 380 00:33:24.960 --> 00:33:30.759 as they want. What they're not entitled to do is call for the death 381 00:33:30.880 --> 00:33:37.279 or in any way hurting any other human being, including Jewish students on campus. 382 00:33:37.680 --> 00:33:42.880 And I haven't been up at Cornell myself, but I understand that some 383 00:33:42.920 --> 00:33:49.720 of the professors there have been supporting those students who have been making those statements. 384 00:33:50.160 --> 00:33:53.079 So, you know, the statements that Jewish people should be hurt, 385 00:33:53.480 --> 00:33:59.240 you know, and even worse than hurt. So the First Amendment is not 386 00:33:59.319 --> 00:34:02.920 a license to commit a crime. Now, going to Trump, the reason 387 00:34:02.960 --> 00:34:07.639 that the gag order was imposed, and Trump has been well advised about this. 388 00:34:08.159 --> 00:34:15.400 It is very important in a trial where there are going to be a 389 00:34:15.559 --> 00:34:19.199 jury, or even if there's not a jury, there are going to be 390 00:34:19.719 --> 00:34:27.960 various witnesses, the potential witnesses, that the judge, that people who work 391 00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:35.320 for the judge are in any way impugned publicly, because that could create a 392 00:34:35.400 --> 00:34:40.719 prejudice against what they're doing in the courtroom. This started hundreds of years ago, 393 00:34:42.039 --> 00:34:46.159 goes back to actually British law before there even was the United States. 394 00:34:46.320 --> 00:34:52.159 It's a very profound, almost ancient part of law. Trump thinks he can 395 00:34:52.199 --> 00:34:55.840 shoot his mouth off, it doesn't matter, you know, whether he's on 396 00:34:57.000 --> 00:35:01.280 trial or not. And he has apparently yet to learn or learn completely, 397 00:35:01.800 --> 00:35:06.280 or maybe he's learned it, but he doesn't care. He thinks it's like 398 00:35:06.360 --> 00:35:10.880 twenty sixteen and he can say whatever he wants about anyone. But it's not 399 00:35:10.920 --> 00:35:17.880 twenty sixteen. And he is now indicted in a variety of criminal situations, 400 00:35:19.199 --> 00:35:25.440 and he's also a defendant in a civil trial where there are still criminal penalties 401 00:35:25.760 --> 00:35:32.079 if you violate the code of conduct that all courtrooms adhere to. And that's 402 00:35:32.159 --> 00:35:37.400 why Trump is completely wrong. He does not have a First Amendment right to 403 00:35:37.480 --> 00:35:42.840 go against the rule of law in a courtroom. He has no right to 404 00:35:42.960 --> 00:35:49.199 undermine the judicial system in his own trial. Well, when does free speech 405 00:35:49.320 --> 00:35:55.360 become libelous? Is there is there a distinct line that someone like I know 406 00:35:55.360 --> 00:36:00.400 you talked about inciting violence short of that. Is there a distinction because there 407 00:36:00.440 --> 00:36:05.119 is such a thing, why you libeled me? Well, well, I 408 00:36:05.719 --> 00:36:08.320 was my opinion. I'm entitled to my opinion. When do we cross that 409 00:36:08.440 --> 00:36:14.119 line? Okay? The First Amendment really doesn't address that. That's again a 410 00:36:14.159 --> 00:36:21.639 civil matter. And if someone defames someone, either in writing or in speech, 411 00:36:22.199 --> 00:36:29.119 then the person who feels he or she was defamed has the right to 412 00:36:29.199 --> 00:36:32.119 sue that person, and that also has worked out, usually in a court 413 00:36:32.159 --> 00:36:37.119 of law, in order for a judgment of either libel or slander, depending 414 00:36:37.159 --> 00:36:40.519 upon whether it's speech or writing, so or just call it defamation. In 415 00:36:40.639 --> 00:36:45.719 order for a judgment like that to be sustained, it has to be shown 416 00:36:45.840 --> 00:36:51.960 that the person who made the communication A knew the communication was false, and 417 00:36:52.039 --> 00:36:58.079 B was doing it deliberately to hurt that person, And if that can be 418 00:36:58.199 --> 00:37:01.800 proven in a civil court of law, than that person who made that statement 419 00:37:01.840 --> 00:37:07.119 again not thrown in prison. It's a civil matter, but that person can 420 00:37:07.159 --> 00:37:10.800 be fined a lot of money. Always enlightening, Paul, tell us, 421 00:37:12.079 --> 00:37:15.599 what's the latest with your radio play? It's real life? See I got 422 00:37:15.679 --> 00:37:22.519 back on track. What's the latest with your radio play? An alternative Beatles 423 00:37:22.559 --> 00:37:25.960 story? Tell us what's going on? Okay, Well, the latest is 424 00:37:27.280 --> 00:37:32.119 I have expanded it into a short novel. It's about fifty thousand words. 425 00:37:32.840 --> 00:37:37.440 I'm pretty sure I'm finished with it. The last time we spoke was maybe 426 00:37:37.440 --> 00:37:42.320 about forty thousand words. But now I feel I think it's pretty much finished. 427 00:37:42.639 --> 00:37:45.119 So now I have to decide what to do. And you know, 428 00:37:45.440 --> 00:37:51.320 there are a whole realm of choices that any writer faces nowadays. Do I 429 00:37:51.360 --> 00:37:54.880 want to go with the big traditional publisher. There are advantages and disadvantages to 430 00:37:54.960 --> 00:37:59.440 that. Do I want to go with a small niche publisher. I'll get 431 00:37:59.480 --> 00:38:04.480 much more attention, but probably it won't reach as many people. And so 432 00:38:04.519 --> 00:38:08.440 there are all kinds of possibilities. And now, of course that the strike 433 00:38:08.599 --> 00:38:14.239 is over, I'm also interested in seeing this made into a movie, maybe 434 00:38:14.239 --> 00:38:21.079 a short television series. And I'm just getting nothing but good responses from people 435 00:38:21.079 --> 00:38:25.199 who have read the story. So you know, it was written and published 436 00:38:25.199 --> 00:38:30.960 in January twenty twenty two. It's won a major award, the Mary Shelley 437 00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:35.239 Award. It was a finalist for another award, the Sidewise Award for Alternate 438 00:38:35.320 --> 00:38:39.719 History. The radio play is attracting increasing attention, got some good reviews, 439 00:38:40.159 --> 00:38:45.280 and as far as I'm concerned, in my arrogant way, the sky's the 440 00:38:45.360 --> 00:38:49.719 limit when it comes to this. And I'll tell you just one other interesting 441 00:38:49.800 --> 00:38:53.280 thing. The day before I felt that the novel was finished, it was 442 00:38:53.360 --> 00:38:58.920 just a couple of days ago the Now and Then record came out, and 443 00:38:58.960 --> 00:39:01.199 I said, of course, know about that. I knew that there was 444 00:39:01.239 --> 00:39:06.679 a big time, and I said that I don't kiss me margin of my 445 00:39:06.800 --> 00:39:10.679 notes. That's why I put it into the novel. So the novel is 446 00:39:10.760 --> 00:39:15.639 that current. That's great. Yeah, So I'm very excited about it and 447 00:39:15.639 --> 00:39:21.000 we'll see what happens. And I appreciate all the publicity you've been giving to 448 00:39:21.079 --> 00:39:23.000 it. Thank you. Well, you know why, because you deserve it, 449 00:39:23.400 --> 00:39:27.920 you do. It's just great. You truly are a renaissance man. 450 00:39:27.960 --> 00:39:30.519 Who was one of my students the other night, I said, oh, 451 00:39:30.559 --> 00:39:32.280 you're going to interview to Professor Levinson. I said, oh, yeah, 452 00:39:32.320 --> 00:39:37.199 he's kind of a regular on being Frank, so hopefully she tuned in and 453 00:39:37.280 --> 00:39:40.440 checked us out this evening. Paul. Of course, I always want to 454 00:39:40.480 --> 00:39:45.480 thank you for being Frank and your intelligent conversation are always welcome back here. 455 00:39:45.039 --> 00:39:49.599 Thank you. This was a great conversation on a variety of important topics. 456 00:39:49.599 --> 00:39:54.559 So great that I'm here. You can count on me anytime. We can 457 00:39:54.679 --> 00:40:01.280 roll you and I for poor students, And of course we offer a special 458 00:40:01.360 --> 00:40:06.079 thanks to our listeners who take the time to give us a voice in their 459 00:40:06.159 --> 00:40:09.400 lives. Remember we offer a fresh topic every week, and you catch us 460 00:40:09.440 --> 00:40:14.719 wherever and whenever you get your favorite podcast. You can find us on Apple, 461 00:40:15.239 --> 00:40:19.400 Spotify, iHeartRadio, Speaker, and all the others. You can also 462 00:40:19.599 --> 00:40:23.360 check us out on the Hudson River Radio Facebook page. Like us, leave 463 00:40:23.400 --> 00:40:27.719 us a comment too. We also ask that you can share. Can you 464 00:40:27.800 --> 00:40:31.400 consider sharing being Frank with the others? Remember you can go to Hudson Riverradio 465 00:40:31.480 --> 00:40:36.440 dot com and find us. I got a little slogan for you. You 466 00:40:36.519 --> 00:40:40.639 know it comes from Maya Angelou. You can't use up creativity. The more 467 00:40:40.679 --> 00:40:45.719 you use, the more you have. We certainly hope so well. I 468 00:40:45.760 --> 00:40:49.599 have a special treat for you. You know my I call the mailman or 469 00:40:49.679 --> 00:40:53.119 engineer Neil Richter. Well, he's another renaissance man. Not only does he 470 00:40:53.239 --> 00:40:59.239 keep us streaming, he also happens to be an extraordinary drummer, often sitting 471 00:40:59.239 --> 00:41:02.519 in with the bag Daddy Olds. And he just had a very interesting experience 472 00:41:02.679 --> 00:41:07.880 playing, not running, playing at the New York City Marathon. He's going 473 00:41:07.960 --> 00:41:10.519 to join us, tell us a little bit about that, and introduce a 474 00:41:10.559 --> 00:41:14.719 song he has for us to close the evening. Go ahead, Neil, 475 00:41:15.000 --> 00:41:16.760 Hi, thank you, Frank, and hello everybody. And oh you're you're 476 00:41:16.760 --> 00:41:22.519 you're much too kind with your your introduction there but a renaissance. Man. 477 00:41:22.679 --> 00:41:24.800 I've been called a lot of things, but never that. But I like 478 00:41:24.880 --> 00:41:31.320 it. But yeah, yeah, it was over the past weekend the New 479 00:41:31.400 --> 00:41:38.280 York Marathon, you know, which is an annual event. The organizers of 480 00:41:38.320 --> 00:41:44.519 the event, what they do is they they invite you know, a whole 481 00:41:44.519 --> 00:41:49.760 bunch of different bands to play along the route of of the of the race, 482 00:41:50.280 --> 00:41:52.280 you know, every you know, number of blocks or whatever. So 483 00:41:52.559 --> 00:41:57.360 it goes on. There's you know, music going on throughout the whole thing, 484 00:41:58.079 --> 00:42:01.639 and it really turns the event into a real, a real block party, 485 00:42:01.639 --> 00:42:06.960 a real, a real everybody's just happy and cheering on the runners and 486 00:42:07.320 --> 00:42:13.320 you know, groove into the music and it's a real, a really upbeat 487 00:42:13.559 --> 00:42:16.639 and fun event. And uh, I've done it a few times now, 488 00:42:16.719 --> 00:42:21.000 I haven't in a few years, so this was the first time back. 489 00:42:21.159 --> 00:42:23.199 And indeed it is a marathon to play it too. But I was gonna 490 00:42:23.199 --> 00:42:25.440 say, it's kind of a marathon for you as well. You had played 491 00:42:25.480 --> 00:42:30.000 quite a few hours. It goes on for a number of hours, and 492 00:42:30.119 --> 00:42:32.960 uh, you ain't no kid no more either, you like all I'll speak 493 00:42:34.000 --> 00:42:37.239 for Paul, he's laughing. They can't see us on zoom, but but 494 00:42:37.320 --> 00:42:39.039 I could tell. I could assure you he's smiling. We're a little gray 495 00:42:39.039 --> 00:42:43.679 in the long in the tooth, gray and the beard. So it was 496 00:42:43.679 --> 00:42:46.840 hard. It gave me a workout, no pun, no wait, pun 497 00:42:46.920 --> 00:42:50.840 intended, it gave me a run for my money. But it was, 498 00:42:50.880 --> 00:42:53.239 it was, it was. It was a blast. And and uh, 499 00:42:53.400 --> 00:42:58.960 you know, we didn't have enough material really to play all that long, 500 00:42:59.000 --> 00:43:01.719 so we were just making things up, playing you know, standards and you 501 00:43:01.719 --> 00:43:06.639 know songs we all knew anyway, and people were just having a great time. 502 00:43:06.679 --> 00:43:09.719 And it really, it really felt good to bring all of New York 503 00:43:09.800 --> 00:43:15.360 together. It felt like and uh, I'll be honest, that was one 504 00:43:15.360 --> 00:43:19.960 of the biggest audiences I've ever played. There were there were thousands of people. 505 00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:23.679 They were all running by, but it did for a while they heard 506 00:43:23.760 --> 00:43:28.719 some right, No, it was, it was. It was just a 507 00:43:28.760 --> 00:43:30.920 real, uh, real blast. I really enjoyed it. You were with 508 00:43:31.039 --> 00:43:35.559 Ken Rowl and the bag daddy Os one of my favorite I love just even 509 00:43:35.599 --> 00:43:38.159 saying that The bag Daddios so clever. You guys are so damn clever. 510 00:43:38.519 --> 00:43:43.360 I love it. And and you picked a song that's kind of appropriate for 511 00:43:43.599 --> 00:43:45.840 uh uh for the marathon. Will tell a little bit about the song, 512 00:43:45.960 --> 00:43:49.679 introduce it, and we'll say good night. Okay. Yeah, the song, 513 00:43:49.920 --> 00:43:53.000 appropriately enough is called Welcome to New York, and we did we played 514 00:43:53.000 --> 00:43:57.280 it a few times because we had a you know, rotating audience, so 515 00:43:57.320 --> 00:44:02.159 it didn't it didn't get but it was appropriate because there we were in New 516 00:44:02.280 --> 00:44:06.719 York. And of course it's there's a lot of tongue in cheek, you 517 00:44:06.719 --> 00:44:10.360 know, it's it's a funny song, but most of Ken's lyrics are very 518 00:44:10.559 --> 00:44:15.199 very witty, very clever. And oh and one thing I do want to 519 00:44:15.280 --> 00:44:20.360 mention because I got the date and I don't know anything more about it, 520 00:44:20.400 --> 00:44:24.679 but the annual blank Fest, which takes place here in Rockland County in Naiak, 521 00:44:25.840 --> 00:44:30.039 right on Main Street at the Hudson House, will be on Sunday, 522 00:44:30.400 --> 00:44:34.920 December seventeenth, So mark your calendar. The bag Daddys will be there. 523 00:44:34.960 --> 00:44:37.880 I don't know who else is on the on the bill. It goes all 524 00:44:37.960 --> 00:44:39.920 day. You know, Frank, you've been there, so and again it's 525 00:44:39.920 --> 00:44:44.760 just a it's just a big all day party right around the hall. It's 526 00:44:44.800 --> 00:44:47.880 a week before Christmas, so or it's the first or the weekend right before 527 00:44:49.039 --> 00:44:52.639 Christmas, so I think in this case it actually is about a week anyway, 528 00:44:52.679 --> 00:44:55.760 it's a good time and for a good cause. You bring a blanket. 529 00:44:55.920 --> 00:45:00.840 There's no admission for it fee, there's no cover charge, no money. 530 00:45:00.119 --> 00:45:04.360 You bring a blanket as long as it's clean, it could be used 531 00:45:04.519 --> 00:45:10.719 new and and we donated and then a team fans out on Christmas Eve throughout 532 00:45:10.800 --> 00:45:16.400 Lower Manhattan mostly and distribute distributes them to homeless people, which is I think 533 00:45:16.920 --> 00:45:21.559 it's a it's a brilliant concept. There's no middleman. It's right to the 534 00:45:21.559 --> 00:45:27.079 people who need it to keep warm during the winter and win win situations. 535 00:45:27.159 --> 00:45:30.280 Great music all day long. Highly recommend it. It's the Hudson House and 536 00:45:30.360 --> 00:45:34.920 I bring a blanket, makes you feel good. You know you got great 537 00:45:35.000 --> 00:45:39.400 music. You're doing something nice for somebody that's around the holidays. That sounds 538 00:45:39.679 --> 00:45:44.000 damn good to me. Yeah. And and uh, there there are I 539 00:45:44.079 --> 00:45:47.400 mean, aside from the world famous bag Daddy, there there are some name 540 00:45:47.800 --> 00:45:52.719 no name acts that do come. I don't know who's going to be on 541 00:45:52.880 --> 00:45:55.679 there this year. I haven't heard what the what the roster is, but 542 00:45:55.920 --> 00:46:00.400 there's the album there well that there's a know I'll be there. You'll be 543 00:46:00.440 --> 00:46:07.000 at the autograph table. It's Frank Blank confessed December. Neil, thanks so 544 00:46:07.119 --> 00:46:10.559 much. Thank you that that guy up there is he's Neil Richter. I 545 00:46:10.599 --> 00:46:15.199 want to thank Paul Levinson, our guest. I'm Frank Lamaro, and of 546 00:46:15.199 --> 00:46:19.320 course I want to thank you for listening. And we'll catch you on the 547 00:46:19.360 --> 00:46:25.719 next being. Frank, thanks again. Welcome to New Joy. Look up 548 00:46:25.800 --> 00:46:47.800 to John God, John, Johnny, good God. My last night on 549 00:46:47.920 --> 00:46:54.400 the subway and I told the cops, Old, I get on out, 550 00:46:57.239 --> 00:47:01.920 got last guy. I'm not going along. I'm gonna see but a blowing 551 00:47:02.000 --> 00:47:07.119 up the past talk undred much, explain that one today to give away conduct 552 00:47:07.880 --> 00:47:15.360 and the lay a top break much have today to across the street. Welcome 553 00:47:15.400 --> 00:47:22.880 to new Shun, Welcome to where John, Welcome to the Gun, Welcome 554 00:47:22.920 --> 00:47:29.760 to the Dave, John, Welcome to very, Welcome to that Collard, 555 00:47:30.000 --> 00:47:39.599 Welcome to new Con. Welcome to the John. Oh, let's lock the 556 00:47:39.679 --> 00:47:45.599 springtime? What is go takes the la season? The slaughter is just because 557 00:47:45.840 --> 00:47:51.440 you don't have to have a reason. You know what one last week pass 558 00:47:51.519 --> 00:47:57.800 grab off had the new Stone well arena. Hold up, we sad black, 559 00:47:57.920 --> 00:48:07.360 my too, dam listen to two hours show We very Grandma to take 560 00:48:07.519 --> 00:48:14.159 a job. Welcome to this job. Welcome to their John, Welcome to 561 00:48:14.199 --> 00:48:21.679 the JOD. Welcome to their John, Welcome to the Yon, Welcome to 562 00:48:21.840 --> 00:48:31.719 their job. Welcome to name job. Welcome to the jod. The boy 563 00:48:31.840 --> 00:48:40.039 authority stakes and the sewers explode badcast with you all when your car gets time. 564 00:48:40.400 --> 00:49:07.960 I love it, Yeah, just like old loves it. It was 565 00:49:07.119 --> 00:49:12.360 back up to the bridge. Try to see the same guy fumbing change each 566 00:49:12.480 --> 00:49:17.119 day since nineteen eight. Recent I heard the whole thing tolls again that the 567 00:49:17.199 --> 00:49:22.119 man just got a raised. Then back at school, cap and the pot 568 00:49:22.239 --> 00:49:28.639 holes on up in the place. They'll touch your hair and they'll find you 569 00:49:28.840 --> 00:49:37.639 there. There's no place like it anywhere. Welcome to the John, Welcome 570 00:49:37.679 --> 00:49:45.199 to them John, Welcome to the John. Welcome to the John, Welcome 571 00:49:45.239 --> 00:49:52.480 to the God. When to the John. Welcome to you John, w 572 00:49:52.800 --> 00:50:02.199 to the John, Welcome to y Wing to the I'm I'm look at us 573 00:50:02.360 --> 00:50:29.199 John, I love you or love you? Welcome to dog Hudson River Radio 574 00:50:29.440 --> 00:50:30.159 dot Com m