WEBVTT

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But there's Gensler on videos saying that
you know Joe Lubin, but nine and

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a half percent of the ico right
there the documents themselves that Joe wrote says

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no specula buying and what I said
before, you can't buy more than you

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can use. Knowingly, Joe could
have justified nine and a half percent,

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and he was an officer of the
company that issued the entity issuing the tokens

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themselves, and he goes ahead and
breaks his own agreements. This content is

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learn more about Uphold, please visit the

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link in the description. Welcome to
the Thinking Crypto Podcast. You're home for

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cryptocurrency news and interviews. With me
today is Steven neriov who's the creator of

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the utility token, the ico and
the security token. Steven is also a

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VC and the co founder of Etheroreum. Steven great to have you on,

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Hiks, Tony. Thanks for having
me. Stephen. We've got a lot

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to talk about as it relates to
Etheroreum. There's so many layers to the

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story, your background as a co
founder and what's happening today with what the

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SEC and Gary Ginster are trying to
do. Maybe you can quickly recap the

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history of your role as a co
founder and you know what maybe when you

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first learned about bitcoin and crypto and
how that led to etherorem Yeah. Sure,

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I mean bitcoin was was interesting because
you know, going back to like

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my days in college, I got
really interested in Anne Rand and you know

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what a lot of libertarians talk about, and you know, the creature from

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Jekyl Island, and you know understood
that you know, this federal reserve thing

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was kind of like not really federal, and it was really you know,

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there was something wrong here and and
so you know that kind of just became

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a passionate about the monetary system.
I spent many years, as you know,

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I wouldn't say gold bug, but
very much involved in the gold market.

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You know. In fact, in
two thousand and eight, I remember,

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you know, you know, I
wasn't in the same position as like

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a John Paulson to get the kind
of dealsyd, but I know I sold

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all my assets and went half clash
and half gold before the two thousand and

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eight crash and you know Big One
which actually really much, very much came

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out of that of that of that
crash that took down so many people and

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and and you know, foreclosed so
many homes and did so much pain and

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I think really changed her in the
entire generation. So with the toe she

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dropped got actually dropped in my lap. And when I read it, you

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know, it was really you know, I was like, this is only

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nine pages. This was I sat
back and I spent like a couple hours

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really kind of going through it.
And what shocked me. I remember this

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really vividly. You know, all
these years I kind of was, you

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know, with the narrative of you
know, there's going to be this hyperinflation

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and then there's going to be the
civil unrest and then you know, we're

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going to you know, like like
the German Wimar were went barrels of cash

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and all of that kind of stuff
and you know, blood and potential war

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and and then here I am thirty
years in technology, and I mean I

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was running internet companies in Silicon Valley
in the nineties. You know. I've

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been a VC you know, and
a entrepreneur since that time. And it's

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just ironic that the last place I
expected, you know, a solution for

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a new monetary system was in technology. And the person who gave it to

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me and looked at it and said, did you just hand me the new

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monetary system? You know? And
so I got I started becoming very involved

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in the bigcoin community. Can even
like you know, on my Twitter account

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you can look, I have a
post there where I used to put the

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network statistics wasn't really about the price. It was so much about it,

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like you know, how it was
evolving and there was more transactions and all

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of that. But the price was
thirty two cents, you know, you

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know, like there was a December
twenty ten post. Then fast forward about

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three years from there again it was
right out to Metallic and published his white

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paper, and what happened was somebody
again dropped it in my lap, and

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when I read it, that one
actually came kind of clicked really quickly.

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You know, I saw, you
know, this world computer, the you

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know, the EVM, what he
was planning on doing. And I really

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saw the difference, you know,
starkly, because in my opinion, like

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bitcoin is you know, uh a
monetary you know uh creation that you know,

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uh, at least up until now, was more of a one trick

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pony where you know, value went
back and forth. Of course, there's

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you know a lot of development that's
going on for a bitcoin for people that

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don't know that's going to bring you
know, the same capabilities in various formats

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and L two's and different things.
So there'll be a lot of functionality on

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bitcoin. And ironically, a little
known fact is that Metallic originally attempted to

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put smart contracts onto Bitcoin, but
the Bitcoin core dev said they didn't want

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to. I think the word was
pollute. Uh, you know, their

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their their little baby. So what
I saw in Ethereum was an operating system

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similar to Windows, similar to mac
os. You know, even your your

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Xbox has one and and ps whatever
numbers up to right now. So to

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me, it was very much different
in this I could grasp the concept of

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the decentralized applications or DAPs. And
so for those that don't understand, really,

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you know, the genius of you
know, he you know, he

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solved a specific problem and that had
not been solved before. But really,

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you know, drastically speak, what
he was able to do was for the

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first time in really history, he
was able to allow people, you know,

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that weren't even next to each other, to interact without a little man

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in the middle. And that's that's
really and still have trust in the system.

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And you didn't have to have trust
in the person you're dealing with.

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You didn't even need to know who
that person was. And that is you

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know, I don't know, you
look at the you know, our ability,

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the printing press, you know,
the wheel, you know, I

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mean, it's it's kind of like
it's up there with those types of inventions,

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and it was you know, everybody
got close. You know, we

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had digit cash, and you know, there was so many smart people that

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preceded him that he built on top
and then he was able to solve this

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one problem. How Finny was able
to a program, and you know,

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I don't know if any of one
of them ever actually anticipated it to be

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as large as it is. So
what happened with the Ethereum was they wanted

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to do a crowd sale. Technically, it was the fourth crowd sale ever

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to have been engaged. When a
crowd sales, you know, you're selling

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you know, this thing, and
in this case it's called ether to the

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public in general. And they went
to I believe they had spoken to the

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SEC, but they'd spoken to untold
number of white shoe you know, large

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law firms, and every one of
them said, what you're attempting to do

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is an unregistered sale of securities.
You need to register it with the SEC.

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This is a security and you know, they just really had no creativity

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or answer behind it. They you
know, I spoke to them and then

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went and met with them. And
this was really early on. And how

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did you end up meeting them?
By the way, it was, It

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was interesting because I got tickets for
me and these two guys that worked with

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me, and as we're getting prepared
to go down to the airport for the

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Miami Bitcoin Conference where Batallic was going
to actually present the ethereum white paper,

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you know, to really packed audience, and I had a family emergency,

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so I ended up not going,
but I was already packed, but I

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sent them along. And one of
them is actually in that famous picture at

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the Miami House for any people,
anybody who's seen it. And when they

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were talking about this, and they
were saying that, you know, they

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can't solve this problem, so they
don't know how to move forward, this

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guy that worked for me said,
you know, my boss can figure this

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out. So I was, you
know, a flattered that he thought I

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could figure out what no returning in
the country could figure out. But I

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immediately right after that, while they
were in Miami, I'm pretty sure it

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was, Charles reached out to me
and said, you know, hey,

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I spoke to you know, this
guy that works for you, and he

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said, you can help, you
know, you can fix this. Can

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you come up and meet with us? And so we started talking and I

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went up and met with them,
and when I met with them, it

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was now I met with, you
know, pretty much the team, and

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so it was the team was still
gelling. You know. This was December

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twenty thirteen into January twenty fourteen.
It was the first month that it was

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starting, and I officially I think
started in January fourteen. But you know,

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it was so it was Joe,
it was Metallic, it was Charles,

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you know, it was Anthony Delario, who's you know, unsung in

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many ways because he was you know, he housed it and really was pushing

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it and put a lot of the
early funding lent, you know, basically

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lent money to the enterprise, so
you know, and he's a good friend,

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and so they were. I went
there and I was, you know,

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listening. I talked to them,
and what they said to me is,

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you know, this is what we've
been told by everybody. Your guy

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says, you could do this.
And it's interesting because I told this story

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to Kimbilla Russo for her book,
and if anybody hasn't read it, it's

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an excellent, excellent book. It's
called The Infinite Machine. Uh it's a

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history of what happened back there.
And I said, uh, yeah,

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I can do this. And I
said how And I said I have no

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fing idea, and so they all
kind of looked at it. I was

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just just not it's crazy, right, you know, And I sounded crazy,

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and to be fair, I didn't
have any idea how I was going

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to solve it. What I did
know was this I have I'm a lawyer

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by training. Okay, I did
what's called structured finance, and so without

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getting into the specifics of that,
you know, to me, I looked

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at tokens and things that in structure
financial tranches. You know, there are

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different levels of payouts, you know, you know for different assets that you

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like break up kind of like tokenization. And you also had a tax background,

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you know, an advanced degree in
tax and believe it or not that

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actually it's you know, tax is
not and the lawyers is like, you

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don't have a calculator even it's more
like figuring out these byzantine puzzle kind of

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stuff. So that coupled with thirty
years of understanding technology in my code or

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no, am I cryptographer? No? But do I understand the underlying technology?

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Did I understand how and why bitcoin
work? And did I understand how

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and why the theerem was working?
Yes? But I have programmed it.

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Know. But that was a good
thing because I guess the best way I

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could say it is I was coming
at this from a very unusual angle.

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It wasn't the smartest lawyer in the
space. You know, I certainly wasn't

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the smartest technologists in the space,
but you know, but I did have

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more experience than most everybody, you
know, almost, So what that meant

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was I had I had seen cycles
before and things, you know, don't

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repeat it. They certainly rhyme,
and it was kind of like that's the

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best the way he says, I
had a certain angle that I was able

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to see this and that was what
was allowed me to create I briefly into

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it, but the utility token,
the ICO eventually the security token as well,

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and it was due to that.
So tell us about the next steps

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for the launch, and you know, you bringing that idea to the table,

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like, here's how we could launch
is token. Everybody's afraid of the

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security aspect, right, How did
the idea of the ICO come up?

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And so I mean you have to
first look at you know, the token

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itself and it actually you know,
it was it was we ran a bar

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and I was sitting with a talic
I believe I had a drink and he

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was nineteen. I think he had
a coke, and it was yeah,

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we were still getting our hands around
with this thing. Ether is right,

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and I said, so let me
get this straight. Like you this is

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really hell was speakers. But so
you need to see you need to have

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this stuff to send this stuff.
And he said I said yeah, yeah,

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yeah, either right, you need
to have it right, just send

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He said yes, and I'm like, okay, And then you've got these

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decentualized applications and they're like you know, hungry monsters, right, you know,

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and they need to be fed,
and so you need to feed them

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with this ether to make them work
like and he said it's a correct and

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he said, yeah, that's correct. So I said, well, you

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know, I said, you know, and I used a couple of analogies.

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I said, you know, when
you send a letter, you know,

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you need to put a stamp on
that letter, right, and nobody

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would say that that stamp you know
that, you know, that one stamp

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you know, I'm not talking about
a collector's stamp or something like that,

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but you know the current stamp sold
by you know, in this case,

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the United States Post Office, but
in other countries, nobody would consider that

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to be a security the I also
used, I said, you know,

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I said, you know, aside
from this being fuel on the actual protocol

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you know, I said, this, you know, really feels like fuel,

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like that you put in your car, you know, but you know

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that could depend you know, I
said, it's if I'm filling up my

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car, you know, with ten
or twenty gallons of fuel. Nobody would

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say that I just bought a security
if I buy a million barrels kind of

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gasoline. And unless I'm like American
Airlines, you know that very well maybe

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a security. So first, what
we came up with was this I called

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it a functional token, and then
it enveloped into what called the utility token.

207
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But the point was I was saying, this is a product, and

208
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it looks and feels like a product, and so long as we treat it

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properly, before you know, we
actually sell it, which that process became

210
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the ICO. But this is the
utility token concept. So once we evolved,

211
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you know, and cemented that this
is a product, now we have

212
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to figure out, okay, this
utility token that we're now calling it,

213
00:16:44.039 --> 00:16:48.480
you know, how do we now
sell this where it doesn't come back and

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become a security. And that was
you know, kind of a little like

215
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I wanted to rip my hair out
because what you're doing is you're trying to

216
00:16:56.720 --> 00:17:03.240
figure out every possible way that you
know, what could possibly go wrong,

217
00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:11.279
and in terms of that sales process
to the to the public, and that

218
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would turn this product back into security. So one example that I was using

219
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earlier is is the volume. You
know, if somebody is buying more of

220
00:17:19.559 --> 00:17:23.960
this product, then they could justify
using for themselves. Well, then there's

221
00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:27.480
probably a product motive in there.
And for those that don't know, at

222
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least in the United States, there
is a thing called the Howard tests,

223
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and it's a four prong tests,
and so you know, with that going

224
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on to the specifics, you know, it's like making money off of the

225
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efforts of others and so forth.
Is a common enterprise and what have But

226
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really like when it comes down to
it, it comes down to is their

227
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profit motive or isn't their profit motive? You know, did the entity selling

228
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this this thing, did they intend
for people to make money and people buying

229
00:17:51.839 --> 00:17:55.960
it? Did they you know,
were they you know, did they believe

230
00:17:56.000 --> 00:18:00.519
that they were buying this uh through
messaging or whatever, that it was something

231
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that was going to go up in
value? They believe this is something that

232
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they were going to use, and
so the you know, one of the

233
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things I put in there, I'd
put a very specific limit and I said,

234
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you know, you can't. We
can't sell more than this amount to

235
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any one individual buyer. You know. There were other certainly other aspects of

236
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it, and so I listed all
of these and then I just kind of

237
00:18:25.839 --> 00:18:27.640
put them in some kind of order
and I said, guys, here's what

238
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we need to do, and I
showed it. You know, Fortunately,

239
00:18:32.599 --> 00:18:37.039
I will say give a shout out
to, you know, the Joe Grunfest,

240
00:18:37.079 --> 00:18:41.799
who's probably the most illustrious head of
the Chairman of the head Chairman of

241
00:18:41.880 --> 00:18:47.599
Chairman of the SEC in the last
seventy five years. And he's a law

242
00:18:47.640 --> 00:18:51.480
professor at Stanford Law School. And
I worked with him on almost a daily

243
00:18:51.519 --> 00:18:55.519
basis, and he was really up
to date. He understood what ether was.

244
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And when I went to him initially
with the product narrative that became the

245
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utility token. You know, at
first I thought he was going to say,

246
00:19:03.799 --> 00:19:07.960
that's the dumbest IDEA ever heard,
and he said, that's that's brilliant.

247
00:19:07.000 --> 00:19:10.640
You know that that really could work, you know, which I'm like,

248
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wait, we were onto something here. And then I worked with him

249
00:19:14.200 --> 00:19:17.799
and I said you know, what
if somebody does this, could it turned

250
00:19:17.799 --> 00:19:19.559
into great? What if somebody does
that? There was a great sound I

251
00:19:19.599 --> 00:19:23.519
mean like maybe the greatest sounding board
you know, on the planet that I

252
00:19:23.519 --> 00:19:27.799
could have, you know had and
I think the industry it was a huge

253
00:19:27.839 --> 00:19:33.480
debt to him. And I would
say also when the Ripple lawsuit happened,

254
00:19:34.640 --> 00:19:41.119
he became an unpaid advisor to Ripple
and did something kind of unpressed and he

255
00:19:41.160 --> 00:19:45.359
sent a letter to Jake Clayton,
an old former SEC chairman, sending it

256
00:19:45.400 --> 00:19:51.240
to a current SET chairman like that's
not protocol, that's not usual, and

257
00:19:51.319 --> 00:19:56.400
he said, you you should not
be taking an enforcement action against Ripple,

258
00:19:56.480 --> 00:20:00.039
and he said a bunch more.
But it was pretty hard worded letter.

259
00:20:02.359 --> 00:20:04.279
Yeah, I had Joseph on the
podcast and we had talked a bit about

260
00:20:04.279 --> 00:20:10.160
this, and now that was surprising
that that letter went out, you know,

261
00:20:10.240 --> 00:20:14.160
to your point, not typical for
former SEC officials to do that.

262
00:20:15.680 --> 00:20:19.720
So tell us about you know,
with the idea and you use Joe's the

263
00:20:19.759 --> 00:20:23.240
sounding board and you got the you
know, the process up and running.

264
00:20:23.720 --> 00:20:29.000
What can you tell us about who
participated in that ico there? I've seen

265
00:20:29.079 --> 00:20:33.039
names, but I can't validate that. You know, maybe you can I

266
00:20:33.079 --> 00:20:36.119
don't know if you can name drop
or it's it's not appropriate, but what

267
00:20:36.160 --> 00:20:42.200
can you tell us there? So
I mean it's you know, there's there's

268
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two sets. So there was about
sixty million ether that were sold in the

269
00:20:49.519 --> 00:21:00.440
ICO that were sold supposedly to purchasers
of ether. Then there was you know,

270
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I'd come up with this, you
know, we'd come up with this

271
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formulation that approximately thirty percent and came
out to like almost twelve mine is about

272
00:21:07.519 --> 00:21:14.599
eleven million, nine hundred ether that
were given to contributors, so people that

273
00:21:15.079 --> 00:21:22.319
like myself and other co founders and
what have you, that participated. That's

274
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part of the Ether that I actually
turned down and did not accept. And

275
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I'd say, you know, between
that and the reason I didn't accept that,

276
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I also withdrew the investment I was
going to make the night before.

277
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And I also had a very large
amount of expenses because I rented an office

278
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for them. Metallic stayed with me. I basically paid all of their expenses,

279
00:21:47.119 --> 00:21:48.839
so they didn't have a nexus,
which is a connection to the United

280
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States. I did that for the
good of the project, because there would

281
00:21:55.880 --> 00:21:59.759
be no conflict of interest and frankly, if the SEC came after anybody,

282
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and these are ominous thoughts downlooking in
hindsight, they would come after me.

283
00:22:06.319 --> 00:22:07.160
And I was cleaned, so I
didn't think they would, you know,

284
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anything would happen, but it would
be protecting the project. I came to

285
00:22:11.559 --> 00:22:14.720
about a million eights, which is
like, you know, north of three

286
00:22:14.759 --> 00:22:17.920
billion dollars today. I don't regret
it all. I mutually, I was

287
00:22:17.960 --> 00:22:23.680
happy that I did it. But
the I think, so you've break it

288
00:22:23.720 --> 00:22:27.640
into these but two buckets, the
one bucket, the ones that were given

289
00:22:27.640 --> 00:22:34.279
out to contributors. I actually have
the list. I haven't published that list,

290
00:22:34.319 --> 00:22:37.039
and that's like how much did Metallic
get? How much did Joe Lubin

291
00:22:37.079 --> 00:22:40.480
get. You know, there's you
know, not how much did they purchased,

292
00:22:40.480 --> 00:22:44.759
but given for their efforts, I
didn't push published that list. For

293
00:22:44.799 --> 00:22:49.720
a reason is that, you know, there's a lot of well intentioned people's

294
00:22:49.839 --> 00:22:55.960
probably you know, under one hundred
people. But uh and you know,

295
00:22:56.079 --> 00:22:59.079
why put a target on somebody's back, you know, letting the world know

296
00:22:59.200 --> 00:23:02.599
that they've got hundred million dollars in
ether Maybe they haven't, maybe they don't

297
00:23:02.599 --> 00:23:06.039
still have it, but you know, it's putting people's lives in danger.

298
00:23:06.119 --> 00:23:08.799
So that's why I didn't put it
out there per se. But what it

299
00:23:08.920 --> 00:23:22.559
did do is it helped people that
were doing you know, online evaluations and

300
00:23:22.599 --> 00:23:27.319
saying, okay, well, these
wallets got this amount of ether, these

301
00:23:27.359 --> 00:23:33.400
wallets got this amount of ether,
and in some case perhaps they could attach

302
00:23:33.559 --> 00:23:38.920
that to a person or an entity, and in some cases they couldn't,

303
00:23:40.400 --> 00:23:45.880
but they knew that the wallets were
connected. You know, I think in

304
00:23:45.880 --> 00:23:49.519
in Joe's case, you know,
it was you know that that list probably

305
00:23:49.599 --> 00:23:56.000
was helpful in terms of identifying you
know, in particular wallet which then was

306
00:23:56.000 --> 00:24:00.559
connected to all these other wallets,
and so you know, so it's the

307
00:24:00.680 --> 00:24:03.200
extent that that's the case, you
know, you know, it's really two

308
00:24:03.240 --> 00:24:08.000
different parts. That didn't take away
anything from you know, still figuring out

309
00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:11.279
what all those wallets were in the
first place, you know, and that's

310
00:24:11.359 --> 00:24:14.799
kind of some on chain analysis,
and there's a skill in that, and

311
00:24:15.039 --> 00:24:18.279
you know, that's its own thing. But then once you have that,

312
00:24:18.039 --> 00:24:25.759
you have to definitively somehow prove and
you know, having this this list and

313
00:24:26.039 --> 00:24:29.759
it wasn't the only thing that I
had, but would actually prove it.

314
00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:37.799
What do I believe, I you
know, my belief is that the majority

315
00:24:38.680 --> 00:24:44.599
of the ICO and this was telega
in a way, this was telegraphed.

316
00:24:44.839 --> 00:24:48.480
I missed this video, and I
guess, you know, I should have

317
00:24:48.559 --> 00:24:51.759
been in class that day because this
was not a video that you wanted to

318
00:24:51.799 --> 00:24:56.680
miss. And this is Joe's Hidden
Wales video, right, So for the

319
00:24:56.720 --> 00:25:00.279
life of me, I understand if
you're you know, I guess you know,

320
00:25:00.599 --> 00:25:03.559
people who are about to commit a
criminal act, you know, you

321
00:25:03.559 --> 00:25:07.640
know, usually they speak after and
brag and that's how they end up getting

322
00:25:07.680 --> 00:25:12.039
caught. This one like spoke beforehand. So you know, I don't know.

323
00:25:12.039 --> 00:25:14.920
I can't get into Joe's head.
I don't want to get into Joe

324
00:25:14.960 --> 00:25:21.400
sat It's probably scary being in Joe's
head. But he actually had a video

325
00:25:21.440 --> 00:25:22.920
where he said, you know,
if you don't want to scare people,

326
00:25:23.640 --> 00:25:26.640
you know, and you want to
buy a large amount of ether, you

327
00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:30.359
know, so you take it and
you break it up into like, you

328
00:25:30.359 --> 00:25:34.400
know, hundreds or whatever wallet's.
I only saw this because thankfully, you

329
00:25:34.400 --> 00:25:38.480
know, this this extra p Army
because of the rip A litigation, did

330
00:25:38.480 --> 00:25:44.319
this the centralized justice and found these
videos they found the videos of me that

331
00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:48.519
I didn't even have, and he
was kind of like, WHOA, And

332
00:25:48.839 --> 00:25:52.119
I look at this. I said, is this for real? Because he

333
00:25:52.200 --> 00:25:56.960
really saying this and he's giving this
advice to people, and it's on camera,

334
00:25:57.079 --> 00:26:00.960
and the whole point of of you
know, going before and I said,

335
00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:04.839
limiting the number or that you could
purchase, he's literally telling people,

336
00:26:06.640 --> 00:26:08.680
you know, without saying it so
much. Hey, Steve figured out a

337
00:26:08.680 --> 00:26:11.279
way for us to do this total
legally. But if you want to kind

338
00:26:11.279 --> 00:26:15.839
of circumvent it and for people and
not to realize that here's a way to

339
00:26:15.880 --> 00:26:19.599
do it, and you create different
entities and you put it into different models,

340
00:26:19.640 --> 00:26:23.720
and you know a problem with that
is you know you can probably still

341
00:26:23.759 --> 00:26:29.960
figure out and attach those you know, they've given us enough you know,

342
00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:34.200
bread crumbs, so to speak to
kind of figure that out. So the

343
00:26:34.319 --> 00:26:42.319
second, so I believe that Joe
was a significant Gary Ginstlewy said he bought

344
00:26:42.519 --> 00:26:48.880
well. I would say Joe said, I've never owned. Recently, at

345
00:26:48.880 --> 00:26:53.759
a conference they said something about half
a poor he said, I've never owned

346
00:26:53.759 --> 00:27:00.000
more. I've never owned close to
even close to half a percent. I'm

347
00:27:00.240 --> 00:27:06.079
paraphrasing, but even close to was
the key component, and kind of everybody

348
00:27:06.079 --> 00:27:07.279
said, oh, he's never owned
more than half a percent, and I

349
00:27:07.319 --> 00:27:11.440
said, that's not what he said. He said, I've never owned even

350
00:27:11.480 --> 00:27:15.200
close to half a percent. You
know, forty percent is not close to

351
00:27:15.240 --> 00:27:18.279
half a percent. Everybody else realized. I thought, you know, he

352
00:27:18.319 --> 00:27:22.440
was talking about zero point one percent, right, you know, but Joe

353
00:27:22.559 --> 00:27:27.799
was really careful with his words,
and that was a slick statement. The

354
00:27:27.880 --> 00:27:34.079
other the other player that I believe, and I saw them at the time,

355
00:27:34.160 --> 00:27:38.119
I just didn't really quite understand,
you know what, you know,

356
00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:49.480
the let's say, the history of
these entities, and that's the CCP affiliated

357
00:27:51.079 --> 00:27:55.200
when I'm going to mispronounce it,
but when Shine of w A n x

358
00:27:55.359 --> 00:28:00.799
I A and she apologies for my
Chinese friends you know in America and otherwise

359
00:28:00.839 --> 00:28:06.039
that I mispronounced. But this is
a CCP, very closely affiliated CCP entity.

360
00:28:06.720 --> 00:28:12.160
They had a couple of subsidiaries who
I knew well, I have known

361
00:28:12.200 --> 00:28:15.880
well and had no reason to believe
they were doing anything. I've done deals

362
00:28:15.880 --> 00:28:22.240
with them, didn't think anything of
it. One of them was Feenbushi run

363
00:28:22.279 --> 00:28:27.480
by Ben Boschen. I'm not making
any allegy I none, it was Hashkey.

364
00:28:29.160 --> 00:28:33.160
I'm making any allegations again into either
of these subsidiaries. I have nothing

365
00:28:34.160 --> 00:28:40.240
to show any illicted activities other than
the fact that they just are subsidiaries of

366
00:28:40.279 --> 00:28:44.839
this larger wem Shecheng. I believe
they were a very you know, large

367
00:28:44.880 --> 00:28:52.599
purchaser in the ico, those two
and then you know some Ethereum co founders

368
00:28:52.640 --> 00:28:59.160
themselves. Now, there were reports
over the years that JP Morgan was invested

369
00:28:59.200 --> 00:29:04.200
in Consensus. Is a lot of
transactions, even JP Morgan forking the Etherium

370
00:29:04.200 --> 00:29:08.680
blockchain, creating Quorum, a private
version they launched jpm coin. Was JP

371
00:29:08.920 --> 00:29:12.000
Morgan in any way involved in the
I c O or is it that that

372
00:29:12.039 --> 00:29:18.359
comes later with Consensus? And so
Joe says that JP Bonger was involved prior

373
00:29:18.440 --> 00:29:22.400
to Maine that launch. I was
around, you know, you know,

374
00:29:22.480 --> 00:29:26.839
most everybody kind of scattered. Uh. It was my understanding that there was

375
00:29:26.880 --> 00:29:30.960
a vesting agreement, you know,
for X number of years for people to

376
00:29:32.119 --> 00:29:36.799
vest their their ether and Joe took
it upon himself to do the terms of

377
00:29:36.880 --> 00:29:41.079
sale, the product purchase agreement,
and he was chief operating officer of the

378
00:29:41.160 --> 00:29:47.160
issue to token issuing entity, which
means you know, he actually wrote the

379
00:29:47.200 --> 00:29:52.640
documents and it was and it's I
dropped the talk of three hour talk with

380
00:29:52.720 --> 00:29:56.160
the talent and an NFT and to
go to my Twitter at Stephen Narrayoff,

381
00:29:56.799 --> 00:30:02.519
you'll see it's my pin tweet and
in there, you know, Italic asked

382
00:30:02.559 --> 00:30:06.960
me, you know, they were
running out of money, and I gave

383
00:30:07.039 --> 00:30:10.480
him. You know, it was
a three month McKinsey style, you know,

384
00:30:10.559 --> 00:30:14.559
research into every aspect of the company, and I had really set up.

385
00:30:14.920 --> 00:30:18.160
Most of those were reviewed, you
know, human resources, finance,

386
00:30:18.240 --> 00:30:22.160
you know, the list goes on
and on, and one of those I

387
00:30:22.160 --> 00:30:26.160
said, you know, Joe removed
the best thing agreement, so everybody kind

388
00:30:26.200 --> 00:30:30.119
of like had no incentive to stay. And that was one of the things

389
00:30:30.119 --> 00:30:32.319
I said to him. I said, you know, your only incentive is

390
00:30:32.960 --> 00:30:37.319
to promote the price of either,
but not to promote ethereum as a protocol

391
00:30:37.759 --> 00:30:44.920
and create depths, which was the
whole idea. So to be fair,

392
00:30:45.119 --> 00:30:52.200
I don't currently have any recollection of
JP Morgan being involved. I did start

393
00:30:52.559 --> 00:31:00.759
consensus with Joe. On the other
hand, I take pretty cool these notes

394
00:31:00.480 --> 00:31:04.039
on what my daily activities are,
and I also keep a pretty good calendar

395
00:31:04.599 --> 00:31:10.839
I did not recall that we had
a conference call with a federal reserve in

396
00:31:10.880 --> 00:31:17.599
October of twenty fourteen either until I
saw it and then it kind of kind

397
00:31:17.599 --> 00:31:22.359
of started coming back to me.
So was it possible? I know there

398
00:31:22.519 --> 00:31:26.000
was, And this isn't Camilla Bus's
book. You know, Metallic used to

399
00:31:26.039 --> 00:31:30.079
stay with me on and off throughout
that whole year, even though he suddenly

400
00:31:30.119 --> 00:31:36.880
met me a few times in early
twenty fourteen, and I do recall it

401
00:31:36.920 --> 00:31:44.079
on our slack boards, there was
a lot of veiled comments about the banks

402
00:31:44.160 --> 00:31:48.880
infiltrating us and JP Morgan. It
was actually they were mostly I remember it

403
00:31:48.920 --> 00:31:55.960
was focused on Goldman Sacks, which
was where supposedly Joe had worked previously.

404
00:31:56.880 --> 00:32:00.759
And Batalic came in and I said, you know, I V And I

405
00:32:00.759 --> 00:32:02.359
said, yo, V. Check
this out. And I'm like, they're

406
00:32:02.400 --> 00:32:09.039
like, you know, they're there. They seem to be making clear references

407
00:32:09.079 --> 00:32:16.279
to Joe as being a plant by
the banks to take over Ethereum, and

408
00:32:16.680 --> 00:32:21.119
the talent turned red and this isn't
Camilla Bris's book. And he went and

409
00:32:21.160 --> 00:32:23.680
he wrote and he says, you
know, we're usual agnostic and if banks

410
00:32:23.680 --> 00:32:27.480
want to use it that's just great
and if you know, whoever wants to

411
00:32:27.559 --> 00:32:31.559
use it, that's fine. And
yeah, I was like, yeah,

412
00:32:31.680 --> 00:32:35.200
that's cool, that was good that
you did that. And then I'm like

413
00:32:35.519 --> 00:32:37.640
Joe being a plant for the banks, this is like nuts, and like

414
00:32:39.240 --> 00:32:44.480
I think I got that one wrong. So you know, it's you know,

415
00:32:45.079 --> 00:32:50.480
it takes a big man to make
admit his errors. And there were

416
00:32:50.599 --> 00:32:53.880
some people on there that were clearly
more tuned in. And it was ironic

417
00:32:53.960 --> 00:33:00.519
because you know, I'm fairly astute
person, right, and it's I was

418
00:33:00.559 --> 00:33:04.559
worked. I rented an office.
I had my office for my artificial intelligence

419
00:33:04.599 --> 00:33:08.000
company, and that's what I was
actually doing prior to Bitcoin, you know,

420
00:33:08.240 --> 00:33:13.039
disrupting my life. And then I
had I rented a second office with

421
00:33:13.119 --> 00:33:16.240
like three offices right now. I
rented a second office for Ethereum. I

422
00:33:16.279 --> 00:33:21.000
paid for it, did not get
reimbursed. And then I opened up a

423
00:33:21.039 --> 00:33:29.279
third office which became Consensus. So
I was involved in all of those,

424
00:33:30.559 --> 00:33:36.039
and again it was really to try
to kind of protect the project. But

425
00:33:36.119 --> 00:33:40.559
the point was that I was with
Joe almost on a daily basis throughout this

426
00:33:40.680 --> 00:33:45.160
whole time. During the crowd sale, almost forty two days, I don't

427
00:33:45.160 --> 00:33:47.599
know how many I did those forty
days. With most of those forty two

428
00:33:47.640 --> 00:33:52.160
days, Joe and I were sitting
in the same room as the crowd said

429
00:33:52.519 --> 00:33:58.680
crowd sale was proceeding. I will
say this, you know, in terms

430
00:33:58.720 --> 00:34:06.599
of who participated, Uh, Preston
Byrne put out a chart, I'm a

431
00:34:06.599 --> 00:34:15.480
logarithmic chart that just shows this like
perfect, you know, systematic consistent uh

432
00:34:16.480 --> 00:34:22.920
flow of funds into the ICO for
somebody who's not only invented the ICO but

433
00:34:22.039 --> 00:34:29.719
just pretty public participated and created in
my CEOs than anybody. Preston made a

434
00:34:29.760 --> 00:34:36.039
state comment in there, and his
point was, this is so inorganic,

435
00:34:36.960 --> 00:34:43.239
this is so unnatural that you know, I think, if I want,

436
00:34:43.239 --> 00:34:45.400
I don't put words in his mouth, but I think he was basically saying,

437
00:34:45.880 --> 00:34:50.320
this looks like this was purchased up
by you know, one two or

438
00:34:50.360 --> 00:34:54.159
three small entity, one two or
three small number of entities took down,

439
00:34:54.320 --> 00:34:58.840
you know, the vast majority of
the ICO. I'm in agreement with him.

440
00:34:59.199 --> 00:35:01.719
I mean, the chart of speaks
volumes, because no ICO chart that

441
00:35:01.760 --> 00:35:05.320
I've ever seen works like that.
You know, for the ICO is hot.

442
00:35:05.519 --> 00:35:07.559
You know, you see a huge
spike, you know, then especially

443
00:35:07.599 --> 00:35:14.199
because in the early time, in
the early weeks, you got I think

444
00:35:14.360 --> 00:35:19.199
was almost twice as much ether per
bitcoin that you did at the end.

445
00:35:19.280 --> 00:35:22.519
So why would you wait, you
know, unless you were buying up you

446
00:35:22.559 --> 00:35:27.800
know, eighty or ninety percent,
But then it really didn't matter when you

447
00:35:27.840 --> 00:35:30.960
were putting it in because you know, the point was you own the same

448
00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:34.639
amount anyway, so you know,
it's better that it doesn't look like you

449
00:35:34.639 --> 00:35:37.159
know, and if you did buy
eighty or ninety percent, because it was

450
00:35:37.159 --> 00:35:40.679
an uncapped sale, so you could
have gone to you know, we raised

451
00:35:40.719 --> 00:35:44.159
eighteen million, you coul have gone
to eighteen you know, one hundred and

452
00:35:44.199 --> 00:35:47.079
eighty million. So I don't think
they wanted to tip off anybody, you

453
00:35:47.119 --> 00:35:52.360
know, it looks like that.
And so they would consistently buy and consistently

454
00:35:52.400 --> 00:35:58.159
buying, consistently buying throughout the whole, and that's just not normal. So

455
00:35:58.199 --> 00:36:04.880
where did your relationship with the theorem
folks of Italic Joe Lubin go sour where

456
00:36:05.360 --> 00:36:08.679
criminal extortion charges were brought against you
and of course eventually dropped and dismissed.

457
00:36:09.119 --> 00:36:16.320
What happened there? Yeah, so
interesting, So we would have to take

458
00:36:16.360 --> 00:36:25.719
a whole another podcast just to talk
about the number of coincidences. I use

459
00:36:25.760 --> 00:36:35.519
that word with triple quotes between my
false prosecution, which we proved was based

460
00:36:35.559 --> 00:36:40.199
on fabricated evidence of the government fabricated
with their own documents from their own records.

461
00:36:42.039 --> 00:36:47.559
But what's interesting is I was falsely
arrested in September of twenty nineteen.

462
00:36:50.159 --> 00:36:54.760
But let's go back to May of
twenty seventeen. Three things interesting happened.

463
00:36:57.079 --> 00:37:05.320
Bill Henman arrived at the SEC that
very month. Also, that very month,

464
00:37:05.480 --> 00:37:12.199
the company that falsely accused me.
And when I say I proved falsely,

465
00:37:12.280 --> 00:37:15.400
you know, not only the government
documents the extortion that they claimed happened.

466
00:37:15.400 --> 00:37:20.199
What they didn't realize it was on
a Skype video call. I had

467
00:37:20.239 --> 00:37:23.320
recorded that entire two and a half
hour conversation. So it's kind of like

468
00:37:23.440 --> 00:37:27.639
saying, you know, somebody committed
a murder in New York, but you've

469
00:37:27.639 --> 00:37:32.519
got them on videotape in Chicago and
you're still charging them. The third thing

470
00:37:32.599 --> 00:37:38.840
that happened was there was an article
that was posted that involved other Ethereum co

471
00:37:38.920 --> 00:37:42.800
founders, and it was, you
know, it was basically talking about whether

472
00:37:42.920 --> 00:37:49.400
or not this porn project had come
out and they were asking. It was

473
00:37:49.440 --> 00:37:52.400
a very serious question and it was
from coin Idle magazine, and they were

474
00:37:52.440 --> 00:37:55.320
saying, you know, is this
harmful to Ethereum And we all basically had

475
00:37:55.360 --> 00:37:59.159
the same opinion. We said,
you know, no, I mean porn

476
00:37:59.639 --> 00:38:01.119
you know, vhs and a lot
of you know, they tend to be

477
00:38:01.119 --> 00:38:05.519
at the forefront of technology. Take
away the content. You know, it's

478
00:38:05.519 --> 00:38:08.280
just you know, that's you know, it's it's almost a compliment, you

479
00:38:08.320 --> 00:38:12.599
know, if organized you know,
it just sounds weird, but it's just

480
00:38:12.639 --> 00:38:15.760
it's historically true. But it's not
to condone it in any way. But

481
00:38:16.360 --> 00:38:22.079
organized crime and pornography, you know, you can look at those that you

482
00:38:22.079 --> 00:38:24.519
can almost see, you know,
that's where the technology trends are going to

483
00:38:24.519 --> 00:38:30.360
go because they need to do it
for their illicit purposes. Even set in

484
00:38:30.400 --> 00:38:35.400
that article that I'm not saying it's
on behalf of the theorem. I'm saying

485
00:38:35.400 --> 00:38:39.519
it's my personal opinion, right.
And we had agreed, Metallic and I

486
00:38:39.639 --> 00:38:45.239
agreed to call myself a founding advisor
the Ethereum Foundation. And this was the

487
00:38:45.320 --> 00:38:54.480
beginning of a massive, coordinated,
multi year discrediting campaign to erase me and

488
00:38:54.559 --> 00:39:01.639
to discredit all my activities from Ethereum
prior to any prosecution. That's really important.

489
00:39:02.159 --> 00:39:06.039
The Ethereum Foundation set an email was
saying that, you know, he

490
00:39:06.119 --> 00:39:09.400
was never involved, Steve's never involved
in this project. And you know,

491
00:39:09.440 --> 00:39:12.880
I had a couple of people from
Ethereum chime in and say, no,

492
00:39:12.800 --> 00:39:15.079
no, Steve really was a well
and then they said, okay, well,

493
00:39:15.280 --> 00:39:17.639
you know you're fine, but you
got to take out his title and

494
00:39:19.000 --> 00:39:21.679
don't point him to ethereum dot org. Point him to the Wikipedia. And

495
00:39:21.719 --> 00:39:25.920
they erased me from Ethereum dot org. So this was just the beginning of

496
00:39:27.079 --> 00:39:30.920
you know, Vitalic saying he only
met me a few times. Well,

497
00:39:30.920 --> 00:39:35.079
anybody looks at that in early twenty
fourteen, the recording our drop was into

498
00:39:35.119 --> 00:39:38.239
early twenty fifteen. It's a three
hour conversation. You tell me, who

499
00:39:38.280 --> 00:39:42.639
knows what's going on in there and
who's a clue? Is idiot in terms

500
00:39:42.719 --> 00:39:46.920
of you know, what's happening with
Ethereum versus me and Vitalent And you know,

501
00:39:47.000 --> 00:39:50.480
I'll go on record is saying that
what what is this? You know,

502
00:39:50.880 --> 00:39:52.159
yeah, he's a human calculator,
but what the hell has he actually

503
00:39:52.239 --> 00:39:55.800
invented? Nothing? You know,
he didn't create smart contracts. He hasn't

504
00:39:55.840 --> 00:39:59.760
gotten the damn thing to scale.
It was supposed to scale in twenty sixteen

505
00:40:00.440 --> 00:40:02.599
he had gotten a's a scale and
so you know, I think he's done

506
00:40:02.639 --> 00:40:09.400
an extreme amount of harm. But
you know that started the let's discredit Steve.

507
00:40:09.440 --> 00:40:15.320
So noboy who pay attention and unfortunately
wasn't the type to going around and

508
00:40:15.440 --> 00:40:21.239
you know, blasting everything that I
did the way these guys are blasting things

509
00:40:21.320 --> 00:40:24.719
they didn't even do. So what
was Steve? Why? Why were they

510
00:40:24.719 --> 00:40:28.760
trying to do that? Is it
because of the ico aspect? You were

511
00:40:28.760 --> 00:40:32.000
trying to distance themselves from that.
Now they were trying to distance me.

512
00:40:32.519 --> 00:40:40.159
It took me some time to figure
this out. It wasn't until I had

513
00:40:40.239 --> 00:40:44.519
some ideas, but really, you
know that the hint min emails were really

514
00:40:44.599 --> 00:40:49.360
solidified it for me. And then
I started going through my thousands of documents.

515
00:40:49.400 --> 00:40:52.920
I had more documents of the ethereum
than anybody else, and I realized

516
00:40:54.400 --> 00:41:00.239
the free pass that Bill Hammond gave
that said the theoeum was now desential and

517
00:41:00.280 --> 00:41:07.639
therefore doesn't need to be regulated as
security. And you know, therefore,

518
00:41:07.679 --> 00:41:14.880
I guess it's a commodity or whatever. I had documentation actually signed by Vitalic

519
00:41:15.639 --> 00:41:21.199
that said that Ethereum was not decentralized. I'm paraphrasing it here. I've put

520
00:41:21.239 --> 00:41:27.920
it up and it's on my Twitter
account that it's not decentralized and they need

521
00:41:27.960 --> 00:41:35.239
to issue basically the same number,
that's sixty million ether within the next three

522
00:41:35.280 --> 00:41:37.039
years four months, which is right
around the time of the Hintman speech.

523
00:41:37.079 --> 00:41:43.639
They had issued less than half of
that. So, according to the internal

524
00:41:43.719 --> 00:41:50.320
documents of Ethereumvitalic and Joe Lubin knew
that they had not been decentralized. However,

525
00:41:50.360 --> 00:41:54.119
both of them went in to meet
with Hintman under oath as one thousand

526
00:41:54.199 --> 00:42:00.239
and one. You know, it's
a felony to lie, and there's no

527
00:42:00.320 --> 00:42:04.559
way they could have told himman,
because then he couldn't have made that speech.

528
00:42:05.599 --> 00:42:08.760
I'm not for one second going to
defend Himan because I you know,

529
00:42:09.239 --> 00:42:13.599
I can't prove this, but you
know, it's hard to imagine that he

530
00:42:13.639 --> 00:42:19.320
didn't know about this, but evidence
needs to prove that one out. What

531
00:42:19.360 --> 00:42:28.199
I can say is that the email
that had that document effectively was sent to

532
00:42:28.719 --> 00:42:32.199
from the lawyer Jeff Albert who was
in the meeting, doesn't sound like he

533
00:42:32.280 --> 00:42:37.360
said anything, whether that's a criminal
conduct or not, you know, needs

534
00:42:37.400 --> 00:42:44.039
to be seen. Was sent from
him to me, to Joe and the

535
00:42:44.159 --> 00:42:47.039
talent. There were only two other
people that even knew this document existed.

536
00:42:47.119 --> 00:42:51.280
And I can tell you those two
people had no clue what was in this

537
00:42:51.400 --> 00:42:53.639
document. They didn't understand the legally, they didn't send any of it.

538
00:42:53.679 --> 00:42:59.199
You know, I think one signed
it and the other one I doubt he

539
00:42:59.199 --> 00:43:02.280
even read it. So really,
the only only a person who was let's

540
00:43:02.280 --> 00:43:07.920
say, not on the inside that
knew this document existed was me. So

541
00:43:08.400 --> 00:43:13.159
they needed to discredit me, you
know. I think they thought that the

542
00:43:13.159 --> 00:43:15.320
false prosecution would end. You know, so if people don't understand that when

543
00:43:15.320 --> 00:43:21.880
you're indicted by the federal government,
there's no statistics for getting that indictment dropped

544
00:43:21.920 --> 00:43:27.920
because it's you know, pretty close
to being a unicorn. It's that rare.

545
00:43:28.159 --> 00:43:30.400
You know, years will go,
you know without any federal indictments getting

546
00:43:30.440 --> 00:43:36.119
dismissed. I got mine dismissed with
prejudice. That's how rare that is,

547
00:43:37.599 --> 00:43:42.840
you know. But the discrediting campaign
was if I went out and spoke,

548
00:43:43.000 --> 00:43:45.760
they said Oh, he's just,
he's just you know. Even there was

549
00:43:45.800 --> 00:43:50.239
an article that came out right afterwards
and said, you know, instead of

550
00:43:50.280 --> 00:43:53.800
saying, this is monumental, you
know, including me getting a list of

551
00:43:53.840 --> 00:43:57.880
all the OG's in the space that
they wanted me to cooperate and turn on,

552
00:43:58.159 --> 00:44:01.280
which I never did. Fused,
I told them to go bleep themselves.

553
00:44:01.679 --> 00:44:05.239
I said, I'll never cooperate with
you because I think it's a witch

554
00:44:05.280 --> 00:44:07.800
hunt. Instead of going into all
of that, they kind of muddied me

555
00:44:07.920 --> 00:44:14.400
up and make it sound like,
you know, I have loss of credibility.

556
00:44:14.519 --> 00:44:20.320
This campaign is foreign ride. So
but what I'm Steve, and I

557
00:44:20.320 --> 00:44:22.880
apologize if I miss this, But
what I'm trying to forgure is why they

558
00:44:22.920 --> 00:44:27.480
are trying to discredit you. Is
it simply because of a document or you

559
00:44:27.519 --> 00:44:31.400
guys had differences, you know,
the relationship just went bad, or you

560
00:44:31.440 --> 00:44:36.320
didn't go along with something they wanted
to do. What took place there?

561
00:44:37.039 --> 00:44:42.840
No, I think I think that
No, they did something illegal. I

562
00:44:42.920 --> 00:44:46.320
was able to blow the whistle on
that, and I also knew something else

563
00:44:46.360 --> 00:44:52.039
that was really important when I left
the theorem, you know, I basically

564
00:44:52.039 --> 00:44:57.559
you know, I would have ended
up having a millionaire ether right when Joe

565
00:44:57.599 --> 00:45:01.639
and I were doing starting Census,
at some point I decided I did not

566
00:45:01.800 --> 00:45:07.239
want to work with show, and
I just said, whatever my percentages,

567
00:45:08.000 --> 00:45:12.079
you know, and you know we
were arguing between twenty five and fifty percent.

568
00:45:12.199 --> 00:45:15.440
Whatever the pointed. I said,
here at George, I don't want

569
00:45:15.440 --> 00:45:17.679
any claim on the consensus. You
know, you could have it. And

570
00:45:17.760 --> 00:45:24.039
so you know, there here's a
guy. I'm not saying I'm the only

571
00:45:24.119 --> 00:45:29.039
person that knows about a lot of
the illicit activity that they did, but

572
00:45:29.920 --> 00:45:31.920
a lot of people are in the
payroll, so to speak. They knew,

573
00:45:35.239 --> 00:45:37.280
you know, take it. I
guess I take it as a compliment

574
00:45:37.320 --> 00:45:39.480
that they could not buy me.
And it was a smart move actually,

575
00:45:39.519 --> 00:45:44.079
because had they tried to come and
said, here's ten billion dollars, just

576
00:45:44.119 --> 00:45:45.440
keep your mouth shut, you know. I mean, the first thing I

577
00:45:45.440 --> 00:45:47.880
would have done is, you know, kind of gone to the authorities.

578
00:45:49.480 --> 00:45:52.480
So you know, they had to
silence me somehow. So we didn't have

579
00:45:52.639 --> 00:45:57.880
falling out. No, we had
no issues. I didn't even realize that

580
00:45:57.880 --> 00:46:00.800
this is stuff had happened. And
to be fair, the time that it

581
00:46:00.840 --> 00:46:05.480
was happening, I didn't know what
I knew, I didn't know what they

582
00:46:05.519 --> 00:46:09.079
had done. So at the very
beginning, I didn't know that I was

583
00:46:09.119 --> 00:46:14.480
a whistleblower. It wasn't until they
came after me and then I started researching

584
00:46:14.519 --> 00:46:17.639
it that I realized why they had
come after me. So let's talk about

585
00:46:17.719 --> 00:46:23.320
Hinman. It's been publicly documented through
Empire Oversight, getting FOY requests and emails

586
00:46:23.880 --> 00:46:29.199
through the Ripple lawsuit as well that
Hinman was warned by the SEC Ethics Office,

587
00:46:29.400 --> 00:46:31.000
You're not supposed to be talking to
these folks and so forth Right,

588
00:46:31.480 --> 00:46:37.079
Simpson Thatcher was part of the enterprise
e leade theorym alliance. Is it as

589
00:46:37.119 --> 00:46:44.400
it seems on its face that reason
Hinman was so called compromise is because maybe

590
00:46:44.440 --> 00:46:49.760
his law firm that he's getting paid
by had a vested interest. You know,

591
00:46:50.880 --> 00:46:52.440
to me, it's actually much much
deeper than that. You know,

592
00:46:52.480 --> 00:46:58.440
all of that's true, and you
know, the conflicts of interest and the

593
00:46:58.480 --> 00:47:02.519
warnings he received and just ignored are
mind boggling, absolutely mind boggling, And

594
00:47:02.639 --> 00:47:07.679
supposedly the SEC Spector General is looking
at it. I don't know how much

595
00:47:07.719 --> 00:47:13.039
I hope we put into that,
but there's something else I would say,

596
00:47:13.320 --> 00:47:16.920
as I mentioned earlier, Hayman got
there at May, to the SEC at

597
00:47:16.960 --> 00:47:27.079
May of twenty seventeen. Okay,
the discrediting campaign against me started also in

598
00:47:27.119 --> 00:47:34.159
May of twenty seventeen. The company
that was a setup that ended up falsely

599
00:47:34.199 --> 00:47:38.519
accusing me of extortion, I got
introduced to in May of twenty seventeen,

600
00:47:39.159 --> 00:47:45.880
and power oversights for your requests all
start from the date of May of twenty

601
00:47:45.960 --> 00:47:51.239
seventeen. So if Hyman, you
know, this is just kind of like

602
00:47:51.760 --> 00:47:58.559
logic. I don't have a document
stating this yet, but the SEC inextripa

603
00:47:58.920 --> 00:48:02.760
inexplicably has working gigabytes of data on
me, even though supposedly according to them

604
00:48:02.760 --> 00:48:06.800
in a d J, they weren't
involved in my prosecution. What I can

605
00:48:06.920 --> 00:48:12.000
say is all of this happening at
the same time means it had to have

606
00:48:12.039 --> 00:48:16.840
been pre planned, which means it
had to predate Hyman getting there. So

607
00:48:17.480 --> 00:48:22.920
my very strong belief based on all
these facts, it's their inferences, So

608
00:48:23.079 --> 00:48:27.679
I want to be clear about that. What do you call me conspiracy theory

609
00:48:27.719 --> 00:48:31.400
there? But they're very logical inferences
and we will get to discovery through my

610
00:48:31.480 --> 00:48:38.840
lawsuit. Uh. Is that Himman
and Clayton were actually sent to the SEC

611
00:48:39.880 --> 00:48:47.840
for this primarily this very specific purpose
to you know, give you know,

612
00:48:49.199 --> 00:48:54.400
monopolization, uh, you know,
halo and favoritism to ethereum over all of

613
00:48:54.440 --> 00:49:01.960
this crypto. Wow. But and
this may be a tough question to answer

614
00:49:02.960 --> 00:49:07.360
because if that's the case, right, let's say that they were sent there

615
00:49:07.679 --> 00:49:10.000
to get this going. And we
see some of the things that played out

616
00:49:10.000 --> 00:49:14.559
the lassit against Ripple and so forth. Who's the head of the snake here?

617
00:49:14.960 --> 00:49:19.760
Who's spearheading this? I guess is
my question? To coordinate all of

618
00:49:19.800 --> 00:49:25.159
that? Wow, some of those
cartoons you see like a snake with many

619
00:49:25.199 --> 00:49:38.440
heads Lisa or something. Yeah,
there's certainly snakes in here. And well,

620
00:49:38.599 --> 00:49:44.559
what I can say is this,
if you back up for a second

621
00:49:44.559 --> 00:49:52.639
in the zoom out, Yeah,
why is the SEC from Clayton and Hindman

622
00:49:52.840 --> 00:49:59.360
and one administration giving favoritism to an
entity that appears to be controlled by a

623
00:49:59.480 --> 00:50:07.400
cc P affiliated company? And then
fast forward to Gensler doing exactly the same

624
00:50:07.440 --> 00:50:15.960
thing with pro Medim controlled by the
very publicly by the same CCP affiliated entity.

625
00:50:17.480 --> 00:50:22.800
That's a scary thought, right,
So, like you know, is

626
00:50:22.760 --> 00:50:30.039
you know, has that has the
CCP infiltrated our administrative state and higher I

627
00:50:30.039 --> 00:50:35.559
don't know. I can't answer that
definitively. What I can say is there

628
00:50:35.639 --> 00:50:40.880
were you know, I helped Architects
zero that was the furtive her security token

629
00:50:40.960 --> 00:50:47.639
on the for Security Token exchange.
Yet this license that was given you know,

630
00:50:47.760 --> 00:50:53.480
technically by FINRA, but which is
you know, effectively reports to the

631
00:50:53.599 --> 00:51:00.320
SEC like Gensler, was given to
a company not only that was controlled by

632
00:51:00.320 --> 00:51:05.199
this a CP entity, but that
has no product, no technology, that

633
00:51:05.360 --> 00:51:08.440
kind of nothing. And it looks
like, you know, snake oil.

634
00:51:09.000 --> 00:51:15.679
And yet you've got a company that
in T zero which is now one by

635
00:51:15.719 --> 00:51:20.320
the New York Stock Exchange ICE,
you know, in terms of Continental Exchange,

636
00:51:21.119 --> 00:51:23.719
and he doesn't give it to them. An American, you know,

637
00:51:24.880 --> 00:51:31.000
large one hundred plus billion dollar market
cap New York Stock Exchange. They own

638
00:51:31.039 --> 00:51:34.239
a New York section, but they're
also listed on the in new Ark Stock

639
00:51:34.239 --> 00:51:37.480
Exchange doesn't give it to them.
And there's the list of other companies that

640
00:51:37.480 --> 00:51:39.559
were that were you know, we
were looking for this magic bullet license,

641
00:51:39.639 --> 00:51:45.679
so to speak. It's also telling
about how he's using that. Yeah,

642
00:51:45.800 --> 00:51:49.800
it's fascinating because I spoke to Aaron
Kaplan I promete him, and he's echoing

643
00:51:49.840 --> 00:51:53.920
gainster statements about all these things are
digital asset securities, that terminology that Gainster

644
00:51:54.000 --> 00:51:59.320
has been using, and they they're
viewing E theorem as a security and they're

645
00:51:59.320 --> 00:52:02.920
happy in prout of their license,
Like we get the custody first digital acid

646
00:52:02.920 --> 00:52:07.119
security, which is etherorem and straight
from the horse's mouth, right, So

647
00:52:07.760 --> 00:52:14.599
something fishy is going on there.
So the billion dollar question for you,

648
00:52:15.079 --> 00:52:20.159
given you know the plethor of experience
you helping to set up the ICO,

649
00:52:21.079 --> 00:52:24.239
was E theorems a security at the
ICO launch? And is it still?

650
00:52:24.480 --> 00:52:29.360
And is it a security today?
Hi? Everyone part in the interruption.

651
00:52:29.400 --> 00:52:31.960
I'm Tony Edward, the founder and
host of the Thinking Crypto podcast. I

652
00:52:32.000 --> 00:52:35.960
have a you favor to ask you. If you haven't subscribed as yet on

653
00:52:36.039 --> 00:52:39.119
YouTube or the podcast platforms, hit
that subscribe button, hit the thumbs up

654
00:52:39.119 --> 00:52:44.760
button, hit the notification bell on
the YouTube platform and on Spotify or Apple

655
00:52:44.880 --> 00:52:47.440
or wherever you get your podcasts,
please leave a five style rating and review.

656
00:52:47.679 --> 00:52:52.400
It supports the podcast, It allows
me to bring great quality content to

657
00:52:52.480 --> 00:52:54.039
you. Thank you for your support, and I'll let you get back to

658
00:52:54.079 --> 00:52:59.360
the content, yes, thing else
not because of anything that I did.

659
00:52:59.440 --> 00:53:02.039
I mean, I ended up properly. Had they followed my guidelines, you

660
00:53:02.039 --> 00:53:09.719
know, they could have at least
mitigated or potentially prevented it. You know,

661
00:53:09.760 --> 00:53:14.800
there's some argument about using the funds
to actually build out the network.

662
00:53:15.920 --> 00:53:22.800
But that being said, you know
him and says putting aside basically the ICO,

663
00:53:22.480 --> 00:53:25.159
you know, all of this other
stuff. You know, we're gonna

664
00:53:25.159 --> 00:53:32.519
bless them anyway. But there's Genstler
on videos saying that you know, Joe

665
00:53:32.599 --> 00:53:37.760
Lubin, but nine and a half
percent of the ICO right there the documents

666
00:53:37.800 --> 00:53:43.719
themselves that Joe wrote says no specula
buying and what I said before, you

667
00:53:43.719 --> 00:53:45.559
know, you can't buy more than
you can use. Knowing Joe could have

668
00:53:45.679 --> 00:53:50.039
justified nine and a half percent,
and he was an officer of the company

669
00:53:50.039 --> 00:53:57.679
that issued the entity, issuing the
tokens themselves, and he goes ahead and

670
00:53:57.719 --> 00:54:02.280
breaks his own agreements. And the
night before, you know, a day

671
00:54:02.360 --> 00:54:07.880
or two before the Crowncil started,
Joe had changed the language to say,

672
00:54:07.039 --> 00:54:13.559
you know, discouraged prohibit itself,
you know, uh, secular of buying,

673
00:54:13.639 --> 00:54:19.840
and then lawyers changed that to say
prohibited, so you know, it

674
00:54:20.079 --> 00:54:22.960
just kind of looked like Joe was
leaving room there, you know, wiggle

675
00:54:23.039 --> 00:54:30.679
room to do this Againstler's saying that
the respect of that of buying you know,

676
00:54:30.960 --> 00:54:34.559
you respected of buying you know,
you're you're you're, and it's by

677
00:54:34.559 --> 00:54:37.800
an officer of the issuing entity,
how do you do not trap the trip

678
00:54:37.840 --> 00:54:42.599
the Howie test right there, right
and he's on you know, on a

679
00:54:42.639 --> 00:54:45.559
film you know at m I T
stating this. Why does he know this?

680
00:54:45.639 --> 00:54:49.039
By the way, that's another question, like why do you know this?

681
00:54:49.239 --> 00:54:53.440
You know, Gary, Please any
question, you know, any answers

682
00:54:55.400 --> 00:55:01.800
respond at the point is he why
hasn't he gone after them? Since he

683
00:55:02.920 --> 00:55:10.719
had the audacity to call x RP
a security prior to every getting to the

684
00:55:10.800 --> 00:55:17.480
SEC and then prosecute you know,
the enforcement action even more egregious is against

685
00:55:17.599 --> 00:55:24.519
Chris and Brad, which is kind
of like just unprecedented. But yet by

686
00:55:24.519 --> 00:55:29.159
his own words, I Thinkian would
have been a security and he didn't do

687
00:55:29.280 --> 00:55:35.559
anything, you know, towards that
end. I think what you're seeing here

688
00:55:35.800 --> 00:55:42.599
is, you know, I boasted
something to this effect recently, you know,

689
00:55:42.679 --> 00:55:47.519
in twenty eighteen him and gave him
the free past speech. And you

690
00:55:47.519 --> 00:55:51.159
know, for those of you know
that monopoly, you know, there's to

691
00:55:51.199 --> 00:55:58.519
get out of chill card free.
And so you know, what Gensler appears

692
00:55:58.559 --> 00:56:05.840
to be doing is that card to
everybody involved, including himself, prior SEC

693
00:56:05.920 --> 00:56:12.239
officials, actors such as Luban and
Batalic, other entities such as j P.

694
00:56:12.400 --> 00:56:17.920
Morgan and the CCP affiliate entities get
out of jail card, you know,

695
00:56:19.079 --> 00:56:22.559
get out of jail free card.
And what that means is he's using

696
00:56:23.719 --> 00:56:28.719
the merge. When they went from
proof of Steak in twenty twenty two,

697
00:56:29.159 --> 00:56:35.599
it's like, okay, now joining
in for security. Okay, mister Densler,

698
00:56:35.639 --> 00:56:40.480
you said it was a security basically
in twenty fifteen, twenty fourteen,

699
00:56:40.519 --> 00:56:45.719
twenty fifteen. You know it's a
security again. Actually you're just going to

700
00:56:45.800 --> 00:56:49.400
use this one. No. I
mean what that does is it says,

701
00:56:49.519 --> 00:56:52.719
okay, we don't have to worry
about anything before twenty twenty two, because

702
00:56:52.760 --> 00:56:55.400
we don't want to worry about anything
between twenty twenty two. So it's like,

703
00:56:55.480 --> 00:57:00.440
yeah, if you create you know, a massive criminal activit video on

704
00:57:00.440 --> 00:57:07.159
the scale of Rico and unprecedented where
Enron and made off or like barely rounding

705
00:57:08.119 --> 00:57:13.400
decimal errors, and you want to
just kind of cover that all up.

706
00:57:13.840 --> 00:57:19.599
You know, there's so many points
in which Ether was treated as a security.

707
00:57:19.679 --> 00:57:24.519
Let's just pick the latest one in
time and we'll cover the rest up.

708
00:57:24.519 --> 00:57:32.440
In meantime. We gave this license
to Prometheum, how coincidental, and

709
00:57:32.559 --> 00:57:38.920
Prometheum can then use it on their
alternative trading system and trade it as a

710
00:57:38.960 --> 00:57:45.719
security. And the interesting thing is
it may not have been everything they had

711
00:57:45.760 --> 00:57:52.440
wanted previously to monopolize all of crypto, and I hope my presence and the

712
00:57:52.480 --> 00:57:58.000
receipts that I produced help prevent that. But what the banks want to do,

713
00:57:59.559 --> 00:58:04.199
you know, the I'm not implicating
Blackrock at all, but I'm just

714
00:58:04.199 --> 00:58:07.880
saying Blackrock has talked about they want
to do this. I believe, you

715
00:58:07.880 --> 00:58:12.039
know, maybe JP Morgan everything,
especially with what you're talking about with quorm.

716
00:58:12.519 --> 00:58:17.239
They can start tokenizing real world assets. That's the first security token that

717
00:58:17.280 --> 00:58:21.840
I had done. And you can
do that if ethereum's a security right as,

718
00:58:21.920 --> 00:58:23.719
you can do it. You know, we actually did the first it's

719
00:58:23.760 --> 00:58:30.039
called t zerop for t zero.
We launched them on ethereum as well,

720
00:58:30.000 --> 00:58:36.599
so they may still be able to
may not be able to monopolize crypto per

721
00:58:36.679 --> 00:58:39.880
se, but they may be able
to monopolize the market that arguably is bigger

722
00:58:39.880 --> 00:58:51.960
than crypto, using a clearly defective
product, that has created all the laws

723
00:58:52.159 --> 00:58:55.400
and has received all cons of favoritism, and now it's just trying to get

724
00:58:55.400 --> 00:59:00.639
brushed under the rug. I don't
think it will. I'm pretty optimistic that

725
00:59:00.679 --> 00:59:06.960
it won't. There's too many flavors
involved. I'm bringing a lot of receipts

726
00:59:06.960 --> 00:59:09.679
to the table. It's not usual
where you've got somebody, you know,

727
00:59:10.159 --> 00:59:13.400
they called me whistle blow. I'm
really not a whistleblower, looked. I

728
00:59:13.400 --> 00:59:15.880
mean, I think I've I've you
know, arguably i've been you know,

729
00:59:16.000 --> 00:59:22.519
invented more in this space than than
than than most. And I just happened

730
00:59:22.559 --> 00:59:24.800
to be at the right place at
the right time because of what I was

731
00:59:24.840 --> 00:59:31.920
creating. And I'd like to think
that I have some ethics, so whatever

732
00:59:32.039 --> 00:59:36.639
risks I have to take. When
I was in the depths of my prosecution,

733
00:59:37.400 --> 00:59:40.000
I made a commitment to myself.
I said, when I get out

734
00:59:40.000 --> 00:59:45.400
of here, I'm going to tell
the world about what I saw, what

735
00:59:45.679 --> 00:59:49.719
happened. And I'm going to do
everything I can to hold those people accountable.

736
00:59:50.840 --> 00:59:52.360
There seems to be a race here, you know, they seem to

737
00:59:52.360 --> 00:59:55.280
be in a rush. So now
all of a sudden to call it a

738
00:59:55.320 --> 00:59:58.840
security, but we're going to call
it a security. Give it the prometheum,

739
00:59:59.159 --> 01:00:02.519
which will still all of our friends
on Wall Street to kind of take

740
01:00:02.559 --> 01:00:07.400
this over. And if you also
listen to another one against their speeches,

741
01:00:07.440 --> 01:00:17.559
he talks about specifically how the incumbents
can take over a disruptive technology. Yeah,

742
01:00:17.679 --> 01:00:22.519
to them, they kind of draw
it out, which is what he's

743
01:00:22.519 --> 01:00:24.880
done, given no guidance, you
know, for over a dozen years or

744
01:00:25.000 --> 01:00:30.639
plus, and then eventually kind of, you know, take over the industry.

745
01:00:30.760 --> 01:00:37.000
And so in large part that's exactly
the playbook that he said on camera

746
01:00:37.239 --> 01:00:40.239
is exactly what's playing out. Steven. I hope you don't mind me asking

747
01:00:40.360 --> 01:00:45.280
this, and it's a genuine question
because I think about myself being in your

748
01:00:45.320 --> 01:00:51.199
position. But all the receipts that
you have, and they've already done things

749
01:00:51.239 --> 01:00:53.599
to try to stop you, are
you ever like in fear of your life?

750
01:00:53.599 --> 01:00:58.800
That? Look, man, I
might be in danger here because who

751
01:00:58.880 --> 01:01:02.880
is involved in so many layers government, private, industry, Wall Street and

752
01:01:02.920 --> 01:01:07.320
so forth. But I'm not.
I'm not not a dare double right,

753
01:01:07.599 --> 01:01:15.559
It's not I'm a truth slayer,
right, and I expose non truths.

754
01:01:16.599 --> 01:01:24.480
It's it's who I am, you
know, you know, so I very

755
01:01:24.559 --> 01:01:29.960
much believe in die free. You
know, you know, you know exactly

756
01:01:29.960 --> 01:01:32.360
how they say the phrase, but
you know, live free or die.

757
01:01:32.400 --> 01:01:37.639
I think it's I have no intention
of dying. I've heard the phrase.

758
01:01:37.760 --> 01:01:38.800
You know, I'm willing to die
on this hill. I am willing to

759
01:01:38.840 --> 01:01:42.480
die on the hill. But I'm
not going to die on this hill.

760
01:01:44.559 --> 01:01:45.920
You know. I made it clear
to them, and they understand. What

761
01:01:45.920 --> 01:01:52.320
this means is that there's far far
more detrimental evidence that I have that I

762
01:01:52.400 --> 01:01:58.440
could expose. Those have been put
into let's say it's decentralized, put into

763
01:01:58.480 --> 01:02:01.360
a lot of other hands that if
anything were to happen, they would be

764
01:02:01.400 --> 01:02:06.599
exposed. So I did cover myself. Do I spend my time worrying about

765
01:02:06.639 --> 01:02:07.880
it every day? Now, you
know? I mean, you know,

766
01:02:08.119 --> 01:02:10.960
I guess you know, maybe there's
a spiritual component of me that you know,

767
01:02:12.440 --> 01:02:14.880
if you think about that, you
kind of attract what you think,

768
01:02:15.440 --> 01:02:17.079
and I don't. I just kind
of put it out of my head.

769
01:02:17.480 --> 01:02:22.119
You know. Do I lock my
door? Yeah? Do I do?

770
01:02:22.440 --> 01:02:25.079
But do I you know, do
I have security, you know, guards

771
01:02:25.079 --> 01:02:29.519
around me or anything like that.
No. I mean it's you know,

772
01:02:29.800 --> 01:02:32.760
the realities of a state wants to
take you out, you know, and

773
01:02:32.840 --> 01:02:39.039
they are able to. They would
unless they think that taking you out is

774
01:02:39.119 --> 01:02:45.400
much more detrimental. You know,
they're going to suffer some damage. Will

775
01:02:45.440 --> 01:02:50.360
they still survive as an entity?
Yeah? Probably, you know, but

776
01:02:50.360 --> 01:02:54.679
they need to you know, need
to have more transparency and accountability some of

777
01:02:54.719 --> 01:03:00.800
the other stuff that I could chop
out, you know, I would put

778
01:03:01.440 --> 01:03:08.519
their status in real jeopardy, and
frankly, I don't not do that because

779
01:03:08.559 --> 01:03:13.239
I don't want to expose them.
I don't not do that even because of

780
01:03:13.280 --> 01:03:19.119
my own safety. I'm not sure
that, you know, the society is

781
01:03:19.199 --> 01:03:22.599
ready for some of that, and
I'm not sure that it would actually be

782
01:03:22.599 --> 01:03:30.159
beneficial on a net basis. But
it is in hands other hands who can

783
01:03:30.159 --> 01:03:32.239
make that decision when the time comes. Right now, I have a very

784
01:03:32.280 --> 01:03:37.920
tailored focus. I need to focus
on this. This is multiple unprecedented events

785
01:03:38.440 --> 01:03:43.400
and how we get this across to
the world population. But this is not

786
01:03:43.559 --> 01:03:47.639
something that happened to the US.
You know, the US was complicit in

787
01:03:47.719 --> 01:03:52.519
it. You know, this is
a fraud against the world. It's an

788
01:03:52.519 --> 01:03:58.280
attempt to take over the monetary system
and the financial systems of the of the

789
01:03:58.320 --> 01:04:01.119
globe. Right, So this is
something that's happened to countries. You know

790
01:04:01.199 --> 01:04:06.960
that is happening and should be outraged
in Europe, even parts of Asia and

791
01:04:08.159 --> 01:04:12.559
South America. And you know,
you're seeing what's you know, happening in

792
01:04:12.599 --> 01:04:16.079
South America. You know, they're
buying their bitcoin and you know they're they're,

793
01:04:16.119 --> 01:04:20.559
they're they're they're getting wise to all
of this. So you know,

794
01:04:23.079 --> 01:04:27.880
you know, at the end of
the day, uh, hopefully you know,

795
01:04:28.320 --> 01:04:30.239
I've got my angels in my army
behind me too, you know,

796
01:04:30.280 --> 01:04:34.079
protecting us. And I would like
to say this that for those of you

797
01:04:34.679 --> 01:04:42.679
people that think it's these huge you
know, countries and you and it's true,

798
01:04:42.800 --> 01:04:50.000
they are and they're there to be
appropriately respected but not feared. Everybody

799
01:04:50.039 --> 01:04:55.840
told me that you can't beat the
FEDS. I had multiple agencies. The

800
01:04:55.840 --> 01:05:00.400
first time anybody ever proved that multiple
agency coordinated over dozens of pe people to

801
01:05:00.440 --> 01:05:04.159
fabricate a crime against an innocent person. Knowing the person was innocent, and

802
01:05:04.239 --> 01:05:11.960
I prove that that's unprecedented, right. And I did that because while I

803
01:05:12.039 --> 01:05:16.039
had a healthy respect for you know, the federal government, at no point

804
01:05:16.159 --> 01:05:20.000
did I ever fear them, what
could ever let them get into our minds?

805
01:05:20.079 --> 01:05:25.679
And I think as a society it's
really important that we close off our

806
01:05:25.719 --> 01:05:30.360
minds and say no the propaganda that
we're being given, what we're being shown

807
01:05:30.400 --> 01:05:32.280
on the news, the things that
they're telling us. You know, we

808
01:05:32.400 --> 01:05:38.239
need to like you know, shows
like yours are key where you're bringing the

809
01:05:38.400 --> 01:05:44.119
truth out and people in their bones, you know, when you get goosebumps,

810
01:05:44.199 --> 01:05:46.920
you know you're hearing the truth right, and you know when you're not,

811
01:05:47.199 --> 01:05:57.719
when you're being you know, you
know, fed aligned. I think

812
01:05:57.800 --> 01:06:00.519
you got a book to write there. And but with that, but to

813
01:06:00.760 --> 01:06:05.400
you know, beating defense and these
agencies and so forth. But I want

814
01:06:05.400 --> 01:06:10.960
to go back to Hintman for a
second. When Hinman gave that free speech

815
01:06:11.559 --> 01:06:16.119
was the thesis that he used that
a blockchain, right forget about maybe ethereum

816
01:06:16.159 --> 01:06:23.760
for a second, can be centralized
but then eventually more to become more decentralized

817
01:06:23.800 --> 01:06:28.039
based on maybe nodes and so forth
and I know hester Perce, the SEC

818
01:06:28.519 --> 01:06:32.480
who's been pro crypto, has put
out some you know, literature about that.

819
01:06:33.239 --> 01:06:38.880
So was Hinman's thesis valid, But
like like we were talking about,

820
01:06:39.280 --> 01:06:44.639
not entirely accurate for etherorem because of
all the details we've discussed. No,

821
01:06:44.760 --> 01:06:47.639
I don't think it was ever ballid. I mean it was, uh,

822
01:06:48.519 --> 01:06:53.400
it was not decentralized. He actually
said two things. He said, you

823
01:06:53.440 --> 01:06:59.920
know, similar you know to uh. He said that bitcoin was desential.

824
01:07:00.159 --> 01:07:08.000
Is perhaps from the beginning that's directly
contradicted in the Ethereum opinion letter that Batallic

825
01:07:08.599 --> 01:07:11.599
signed. Let me be clear that
that document that I'm talking about has a

826
01:07:11.639 --> 01:07:15.760
metallic signature on it, so that's
incorrect. The second component of it is

827
01:07:15.760 --> 01:07:20.679
said it's now become sufficiently decentualized.
Well, according to its own documents,

828
01:07:20.679 --> 01:07:25.639
it hasn't been. In his depositions, he did, We did an extensive

829
01:07:25.679 --> 01:07:30.480
amount of due diligence. You know, you would think if you're the SEC,

830
01:07:30.440 --> 01:07:34.159
you would not be calling in Joseph
Lubin and Batalic and say, hey,

831
01:07:34.440 --> 01:07:38.159
so tell me what happened. I
mean, I didn't get the benefit

832
01:07:38.199 --> 01:07:40.480
of that. Nobody said to me
and saying, hey, are you innocent

833
01:07:40.599 --> 01:07:42.480
or not? No, you're not
innocent. Okay, so you can go

834
01:07:42.519 --> 01:07:45.920
home, you know, I mean
that's what this is not where we have

835
01:07:45.079 --> 01:07:50.440
agencies, right, you know,
unless they were just looking to put on

836
01:07:50.480 --> 01:07:57.360
the record. But those records were
those interviews would transcribe and they were under

837
01:07:57.360 --> 01:08:01.960
oath, so they will they will
be really and so that no points it

838
01:08:02.039 --> 01:08:06.320
had to have any validity. Mm
hmm. So let's let's pass forward to

839
01:08:08.039 --> 01:08:11.679
Gencer and what he's doing now.
So the reports came out this week that

840
01:08:12.079 --> 01:08:17.680
the SEC is doing an investigation into
the Theorem Foundation. They are looking to

841
01:08:17.720 --> 01:08:23.640
block that etherorem et F. They're
looking to categorize ethos a security. We

842
01:08:23.760 --> 01:08:26.600
touched a bit on it, right, the Prometheum strategy and so forth.

843
01:08:27.000 --> 01:08:32.199
So in context of the ETF,
do you think this is uh something to

844
01:08:32.239 --> 01:08:42.960
block that ETF and also uh to
like you said, push this tokenization security

845
01:08:43.000 --> 01:08:48.319
aspect to Wall Street? Well,
I think it will. You know,

846
01:08:48.359 --> 01:08:53.720
I think the ETF, you know, is always a possibility, But I

847
01:08:53.760 --> 01:08:57.359
don't think that's the direction that they're
headed at now. I think they realized

848
01:08:57.399 --> 01:09:00.720
that that was kind of d o
a. You know that on arrival.

849
01:09:00.880 --> 01:09:05.319
You know, hopefully my emergence had
something to do with that. But you

850
01:09:05.319 --> 01:09:11.119
know, they're saying, you know, how do we cover up everything that's

851
01:09:11.159 --> 01:09:16.640
happened in the past and still benefit
from this control that we have over etheroeum

852
01:09:16.680 --> 01:09:21.560
and utilizing ethereum for our own purposes? You know, I think that's the

853
01:09:23.119 --> 01:09:28.319
dual new mandate that that Gensler has. And keep in mind, Gensler was

854
01:09:28.359 --> 01:09:30.640
with the CFTC. He was making
comments, you know, a long time

855
01:09:30.680 --> 01:09:34.039
ago. He's been talking about this
for years, ever before he got to

856
01:09:34.039 --> 01:09:42.479
the SEC. He's the one who
prosecuted this enforcement action, you know,

857
01:09:43.079 --> 01:09:45.319
him and and Clayton just dropped it
on their way out, like literally,

858
01:09:46.239 --> 01:09:49.960
and so you know, he's not
you know, some people say, wow,

859
01:09:50.079 --> 01:09:54.159
it didn't start under him. I'm
not sure what that means. I

860
01:09:54.159 --> 01:09:59.359
mean, he continued it and in
many ways with the enforcement action, he

861
01:09:59.399 --> 01:10:08.279
actually did the whole thing. So
it I'll give them credit because it's you

862
01:10:08.319 --> 01:10:14.840
know, for being insidious. It's
it's it's a rather clever way of covering

863
01:10:14.920 --> 01:10:20.880
up one's sins while still trying to
make some use of the asset that they

864
01:10:20.880 --> 01:10:27.439
were trying to utilize to monopolize all
of crypto. You know, maybe they

865
01:10:27.439 --> 01:10:31.119
won't monopolized all of crypto, but
they may be able to monopolize all of

866
01:10:33.319 --> 01:10:38.600
cokenization of real world assets. And
for those of you who don't understand,

867
01:10:38.680 --> 01:10:45.439
you know, that's like a four
quad trillion dollar estimated market, you know,

868
01:10:45.600 --> 01:10:53.119
the the world economy. I don't
even think it's one one hundred trillion

869
01:10:53.239 --> 01:10:57.600
something like that. Four quardter trillion
is like four thousand trillion. It's like

870
01:10:57.720 --> 01:11:00.960
forty times the world economy, something
that you know in the neighborhood just orders

871
01:11:01.000 --> 01:11:06.520
of magnitude larger. So there's,
you know, this massive opportunity, and

872
01:11:06.800 --> 01:11:10.319
you know, why are they picking
ethereum, you know, I mean obviously

873
01:11:10.359 --> 01:11:15.159
you know there's a control aspect there
that they can manage it. Yeah,

874
01:11:15.279 --> 01:11:16.479
And to your point, just this
week, and I'm not sure if you

875
01:11:16.520 --> 01:11:20.720
saw the news black Rock, it
was announced with coinbase and securitized, they

876
01:11:20.800 --> 01:11:28.239
started tokenizing investment funds on the ethery
and blockchain. So to your I mean,

877
01:11:28.560 --> 01:11:31.720
we're seeing it playing out right before
our eyes, and eth is often

878
01:11:32.039 --> 01:11:38.760
chosen above many other smart contract platforms
that are out there. So to your

879
01:11:38.800 --> 01:11:43.399
point, there seems to be a
clear bias or agenda. It's the right

880
01:11:43.439 --> 01:11:48.560
way there. Now you have a
lawsuit, tell us about that lawsuit and

881
01:11:48.840 --> 01:12:00.199
what's going on there. Yeah,
so the lawsuit is actually against the UH

882
01:12:00.760 --> 01:12:06.760
the US government, and it's for
malicious prosecution, so it's not against Joe

883
01:12:08.119 --> 01:12:15.039
and UH batallic per se at this
point. Though, when we get into

884
01:12:15.119 --> 01:12:18.800
discovery, you know, depending on
what we find there, you know,

885
01:12:19.000 --> 01:12:24.439
they could be at it. And
that's for it's a very hard lawsuit.

886
01:12:24.520 --> 01:12:28.439
It's very rare that laws would like
that could be could come across. It'll

887
01:12:28.479 --> 01:12:33.159
be a record setting lawsuit. Technically, you have to sue agents somebody with

888
01:12:33.199 --> 01:12:42.000
the rest authority. So we're assuming
the FBI agents which pursure themselves and falsified

889
01:12:42.039 --> 01:12:48.479
documentation in order to pursue my false
prosecution. But then the United States steps

890
01:12:48.520 --> 01:12:53.600
in for them, and that should
be filed you know within a month.

891
01:12:54.520 --> 01:13:00.479
Wow. The other question I want
to ask you in context, and there's

892
01:13:00.520 --> 01:13:03.600
so many things here, so forgive
me if I'm jumping around a bit,

893
01:13:03.640 --> 01:13:11.399
but do you feel the SEC or
Congress actually will have to pass legislation to

894
01:13:11.520 --> 01:13:17.279
update the how we test to be
able to categorize tokens appropriately given that this

895
01:13:17.319 --> 01:13:20.399
is a very different world from the
nineteen thirties when the How We Test was

896
01:13:20.439 --> 01:13:26.640
put together. You got blockchains distributed
globally, some centralized, some decentralized,

897
01:13:26.960 --> 01:13:30.760
tokens distributed globally. What is your
outlook and how the US is going to

898
01:13:30.800 --> 01:13:34.880
treat these things? No, I
mean, I think you know updating and

899
01:13:34.880 --> 01:13:40.119
how it does, how it tested
the US Supreme Court decisions, so you

900
01:13:40.119 --> 01:13:43.520
know, I guess Congress could over
overrule it, you know, in a

901
01:13:43.600 --> 01:13:45.239
sense, you know, you know. But on the other hand, you

902
01:13:45.239 --> 01:13:48.279
know, twenty nineteen Warren Davidson and
I helped them with this, had the

903
01:13:48.319 --> 01:13:55.640
Token Taxonomy Act, had a safe
harbor free utility tokens. You look at

904
01:13:55.760 --> 01:14:00.239
a jurisdiction site right now in the
UAE and Dubai and particular. You know,

905
01:14:00.319 --> 01:14:03.920
you want to start an exchange.
They give you an application. Here

906
01:14:03.920 --> 01:14:06.359
are the things you have to you
know, they make a lot of sense.

907
01:14:06.399 --> 01:14:08.920
And here are the things you have
to do. You want to issue

908
01:14:08.960 --> 01:14:11.000
utility, you took it. Here
are the things you do. You get

909
01:14:11.000 --> 01:14:14.039
a license for it, you pay
a fee, and you know, there

910
01:14:14.119 --> 01:14:18.399
are very common sensible ways that have
been implemented in many countries across the globe

911
01:14:18.800 --> 01:14:26.960
that we are choosing not to because
they're working, they're flourishing. There's you're

912
01:14:27.079 --> 01:14:30.720
finding you're not finding, you know, the kind of fraud. I'm sure

913
01:14:30.720 --> 01:14:34.720
there's always going to be fraud.
It's an early industry, with any industry

914
01:14:34.760 --> 01:14:40.319
that was fraud, right, and
certainly less fraud than I think that there

915
01:14:40.399 --> 01:14:46.079
is on the governmental side. But
you know, you don't necessarily you know,

916
01:14:46.760 --> 01:14:50.720
Clayton said, you know, we
don't need to disturb our securities laws.

917
01:14:50.920 --> 01:14:55.680
Well, you certainly need to at
least clarify them. And I think

918
01:14:55.720 --> 01:15:00.720
creating safe harbors for that, overturning
Howie you know, in this and for

919
01:15:00.760 --> 01:15:05.920
this instance is a possibility. It's
just I'm not necessarily true that it's necessary,

920
01:15:06.000 --> 01:15:10.880
because there are ways in which you
can do this that you can say,

921
01:15:10.960 --> 01:15:14.800
depending on what you want to do, here are the requirements. You

922
01:15:14.960 --> 01:15:19.880
pass those into law, and you
know they're kind of this like separate regime,

923
01:15:21.039 --> 01:15:26.640
you know from how but you can
go either way. The point is

924
01:15:27.319 --> 01:15:30.840
that they don't want to go either
way. You know, they can legislation

925
01:15:30.479 --> 01:15:36.079
other than you know, Elizabeth Warren
saying that you know, hamas or criminals

926
01:15:36.159 --> 01:15:41.000
or whatever whatever word. She just
wants you just throws out whatever organizations you

927
01:15:41.079 --> 01:15:45.760
want and says, you know,
they use crypto for I listed activities.

928
01:15:46.319 --> 01:15:49.359
You know, wouldn't it be interesting
if the government was using crypto for listed

929
01:15:49.399 --> 01:15:59.920
activities? Who knows? It's uh
uh. I would say it's very hypocritical

930
01:16:00.239 --> 01:16:04.880
in terms of what they're doing.
And they're clearly stalling to have innovative implementing

931
01:16:05.600 --> 01:16:13.880
regulations because regulations stops them from doing
arbitrary enforcement actions like they did against Ripple,

932
01:16:14.439 --> 01:16:15.680
and I think that's what they're looking
to do. I think they took

933
01:16:15.680 --> 01:16:19.840
advantage of the FTX thing if they
weren't involved in the f t X thing

934
01:16:19.880 --> 01:16:26.119
from an early state, and that
showed the kind of damage that they could

935
01:16:26.119 --> 01:16:32.800
do where regulations would stop them from
doing that. Now you're still involving crypto.

936
01:16:33.560 --> 01:16:38.039
You're building a metaverse project. Can
you tell us about that? Yeah?

937
01:16:38.079 --> 01:16:41.159
Sure, so, you know,
it's interesting. My background is really

938
01:16:41.199 --> 01:16:45.279
more an AI you know, as
much as I've created in crypto, and

939
01:16:45.359 --> 01:16:51.319
so we have some technology and some
seminal patents that we realized the would actually

940
01:16:53.279 --> 01:17:00.199
lend itself well to creating a digital
twin of the Earth, and so it's

941
01:17:00.199 --> 01:17:02.840
a certain model that we have.
It's going to be introduced shortly, and

942
01:17:03.119 --> 01:17:08.000
that would allow you to do things
that you just couldn't do today. You

943
01:17:08.039 --> 01:17:11.359
could, you know, in real
time you kind of like teleport to the

944
01:17:11.439 --> 01:17:16.359
Japanese Gardens or the Times Square,
and it's intended to allow people to have,

945
01:17:16.800 --> 01:17:25.560
you know, immersive mostly augmented reality
experiences where they couldn't otherwise have them.

946
01:17:25.600 --> 01:17:29.079
And you know, you go into
a mall and you go, let's

947
01:17:29.079 --> 01:17:31.640
say you want to buy a suit
or a dress. Instead of looking like

948
01:17:31.680 --> 01:17:36.840
an avatar with an NFT, you
actually look like you. Is a representation

949
01:17:36.960 --> 01:17:42.439
of you, but it's it's a
digital twin, and so you're probably gonna

950
01:17:42.439 --> 01:17:45.000
want to look sharp the way you
look now and you're not going to look

951
01:17:45.000 --> 01:17:48.199
like Daffy Duck on a spaceship,
right, you know, and it'll be

952
01:17:48.279 --> 01:17:54.920
familiar. And we happen to have
had built this all out for a smart

953
01:17:54.960 --> 01:17:58.520
city project that we were doing,
which will still be doing as part of

954
01:17:58.560 --> 01:18:01.319
this. But we believe that the
real metaverse is the one where you're going

955
01:18:01.399 --> 01:18:03.800
to look like yourself. You're going
to feel like yourself, but you're gonna

956
01:18:03.760 --> 01:18:08.960
be able to do things quicker faster, cheaper. So if you want to

957
01:18:09.239 --> 01:18:13.159
you know, instead of us having
this conversation right now, you and I

958
01:18:13.159 --> 01:18:15.920
could be sitting across the table from
each other. You know, are you

959
01:18:16.039 --> 01:18:19.079
a glass song? We could be
sitting right across which and you look like

960
01:18:19.199 --> 01:18:24.880
you, I look like me,
right, and it feels like a familiar

961
01:18:24.960 --> 01:18:29.359
setting, you know that. You
know, we could create a setting or

962
01:18:29.399 --> 01:18:31.840
it could be you know, the
setting that you know is in your office.

963
01:18:32.479 --> 01:18:36.399
And the commercial potential of this is
just really astronomical. You know,

964
01:18:36.439 --> 01:18:40.560
I think in ten years, something
like this could be larger than any economy

965
01:18:40.600 --> 01:18:45.960
on the planet. So if you
want to have you know, you want

966
01:18:45.960 --> 01:18:51.119
to go, Let's say the hottest
club nightclub is in it easier and they

967
01:18:51.159 --> 01:18:55.399
you know, they have a limit
of having people they can have in there,

968
01:18:55.439 --> 01:18:58.119
and we have to respect the laws
of physics. So let's say it's

969
01:18:58.119 --> 01:19:01.359
five thousand people. Well, they
could create a digital representation, a digital

970
01:19:01.359 --> 01:19:05.399
twin of that, and then people
from all around the world could go and

971
01:19:05.479 --> 01:19:11.680
experience that. And instead of flying
there and you know, paying all the

972
01:19:11.720 --> 01:19:14.720
expenses and the time and the month, you know, an entire day,

973
01:19:14.840 --> 01:19:16.319
you know, it's deal and getting
there, you know, you could just

974
01:19:16.359 --> 01:19:20.199
put on your glasses and you could
be right there right now, you know.

975
01:19:20.279 --> 01:19:25.079
So the potential there. I'm giving
a really high overview. I think

976
01:19:25.079 --> 01:19:29.199
it's going to be a game changer. We own the technology to do that,

977
01:19:29.239 --> 01:19:32.000
we have the patents on it.
But more importantly, since twenty ten,

978
01:19:32.039 --> 01:19:35.560
we've been actually building out this tech. We didn't realize we were building

979
01:19:35.560 --> 01:19:41.079
it out for this purpose, but
about two or three years ago we realized,

980
01:19:41.279 --> 01:19:44.000
hey, wait, we actually have
the tech to build a digital twin.

981
01:19:45.239 --> 01:19:51.199
And the beauty of it also is
that the users without going into all

982
01:19:51.199 --> 01:19:56.359
the specifics of how, but it'll
be fairly easy for the users to be

983
01:19:56.359 --> 01:19:58.880
building it out. You know a
lot of things I see, like,

984
01:19:59.119 --> 01:20:03.079
you know, some of these metaverses, most of the meta verses, they're

985
01:20:03.079 --> 01:20:08.680
going against the grain of what like
made social media you know great, and

986
01:20:08.720 --> 01:20:11.880
that was user generated content. So
the users are going to be building this

987
01:20:12.000 --> 01:20:16.199
out and really easy for them to
do that, you know. Whereas they're

988
01:20:16.239 --> 01:20:18.479
building out you know, a whole
world, and they're going to have to

989
01:20:18.520 --> 01:20:23.600
keep it updated and that's just that's
just not how you know, and we're

990
01:20:23.640 --> 01:20:28.319
really not doing Web three are really
jumping into web five. It's kind of

991
01:20:28.399 --> 01:20:30.239
like what we're you know, what
this project's all about. Where we're leap

992
01:20:30.359 --> 01:20:34.479
producting it all, you know,
all the way and to the user generated

993
01:20:34.520 --> 01:20:44.560
content will keep this fresh. It'll
be content that people want, right you

994
01:20:44.600 --> 01:20:46.119
know, if you have if you
have a vacation home and a man cave

995
01:20:46.159 --> 01:20:48.560
in that vacation home, but you're
at regular, regular home, you can

996
01:20:48.560 --> 01:20:51.840
fill filming a vacational but when you're
in your regular home, you can feel

997
01:20:51.840 --> 01:20:56.399
like you're sitting in that exact room
and it looks like that exact room,

998
01:20:56.640 --> 01:20:59.119
you look like exactly like you,
and you can invite you know, three

999
01:20:59.239 --> 01:21:01.000
forty your buddies and you you know, you could have a beer and whatever

1000
01:21:01.039 --> 01:21:05.560
you want to have, you know, making an example, but you know

1001
01:21:06.359 --> 01:21:11.319
it would feel like the real world. You could do things that you know

1002
01:21:11.439 --> 01:21:19.920
are more fantastic. But it's really
geared towards creating transactions and interactions and immersive

1003
01:21:19.960 --> 01:21:26.520
experiences, and so it's it's very
heavy. While it'll be launched, I

1004
01:21:26.520 --> 01:21:30.239
will say this is probably the most
ambitious projects I've ever been launched in blockchain,

1005
01:21:30.520 --> 01:21:36.239
while at the same time, I
think is the first true AI project

1006
01:21:36.239 --> 01:21:42.079
that's being launched in blockchain, So
this the token will be really it's very

1007
01:21:42.159 --> 01:21:47.279
much an AI token and the technology
is probably seventy eighty percent artificial intelligence.

1008
01:21:48.119 --> 01:21:53.039
Can you tell me if you're using
a blockchain that's already in the market,

1009
01:21:53.119 --> 01:21:58.640
or you have your own proprietary blockchain. We're going to be announcing that soon.

1010
01:21:59.680 --> 01:22:01.560
Got it. I'm excited to see
that, man. That's awesome.

1011
01:22:02.960 --> 01:22:08.279
I will say this, I believe
that the winning layer one blockchain will be

1012
01:22:08.319 --> 01:22:15.840
the one that has the killer DAP, that has economies of scale and network

1013
01:22:15.920 --> 01:22:19.600
effects and all of that. And
I believe that killer DAP is going to

1014
01:22:19.640 --> 01:22:24.159
be what people are referring to as
a metaverse. You know, we're saying

1015
01:22:24.199 --> 01:22:30.960
it's an immersive experience. So I
believe whoever kind of wins this, the

1016
01:22:30.119 --> 01:22:35.760
blockchain underneath that will be the winning
blockchain. Mm hmm. Well, I'm

1017
01:22:35.760 --> 01:22:40.560
excited to see that, man.
That that sounds fascinating. And I you

1018
01:22:40.560 --> 01:22:44.600
know, given that your backgrounds in
AI, I got to ask you about

1019
01:22:44.880 --> 01:22:49.720
the you know, this ascension of
AI and what we're seeing open AI and

1020
01:22:49.800 --> 01:22:54.760
chat, GPT and so forth.
And then there's talks of AI is going

1021
01:22:54.840 --> 01:22:58.640
to take away a lot of jobs, but we know many times there's a

1022
01:22:58.720 --> 01:23:00.800
short period which is a massive disruption. Jobs are lost, but then there's

1023
01:23:00.880 --> 01:23:04.640
jobs creation. What is your outlook
and how AI is going to change the

1024
01:23:04.640 --> 01:23:09.279
world like in the next ten years. I think it's gonna be massive,

1025
01:23:10.199 --> 01:23:12.680
I would say in a couple of
things. I think, you know,

1026
01:23:12.760 --> 01:23:15.680
the calls that like Elon and some
others have had for regulation and they're so

1027
01:23:15.760 --> 01:23:18.960
worried about blockchain right and box,
I think you're a couple of billions tillion

1028
01:23:18.960 --> 01:23:25.039
dollars right, and it's you know, it doesn't pose the threats that AI

1029
01:23:25.159 --> 01:23:28.119
and nowhere near the threats that I
pose. This, So I think,

1030
01:23:28.279 --> 01:23:31.159
you know, and I know the
White House issued some executive orders on this.

1031
01:23:31.640 --> 01:23:36.079
I think that they need to be
more regulation in terms of how it's

1032
01:23:36.119 --> 01:23:42.319
being built up because it can become
very dangerous too. I think it's you're

1033
01:23:42.359 --> 01:23:45.439
right, it will be disruptive.
And what you'll see is, you know,

1034
01:23:45.680 --> 01:23:55.079
just like the Industrial Revolution and other
you know disruptions. You know,

1035
01:23:55.159 --> 01:24:00.159
in terms of technologies, what you'll
see is, you know, people go

1036
01:24:00.279 --> 01:24:06.399
upstream. And so right now I
could probably use chat GBT to write a

1037
01:24:06.479 --> 01:24:11.680
very basic legal contract that I would
have had to call my lawyer for so

1038
01:24:12.159 --> 01:24:16.800
now lawyers will be more focused on
you know, planning and strategic analysis,

1039
01:24:16.840 --> 01:24:21.199
and in fact those things are worth
more than putting together a document. So

1040
01:24:21.399 --> 01:24:26.800
in some ways, you know,
it'll be you'll have to have more experience.

1041
01:24:26.960 --> 01:24:30.079
It will be a little bit harder
to compete, but you probably could

1042
01:24:30.079 --> 01:24:33.399
do even better. And I also
don't forget that the chat GBT is making

1043
01:24:33.399 --> 01:24:39.159
the lawyers work a lot, a
lot less, a lot easier, and

1044
01:24:39.239 --> 01:24:43.680
probably a lot more profitable. So
net net, I don't think you know,

1045
01:24:43.760 --> 01:24:47.920
I use my h our metaverse.
And then for those who don't know

1046
01:24:47.960 --> 01:24:53.840
it's it's called clone kal o n
E. In there, we expect to

1047
01:24:54.000 --> 01:25:02.079
have more generative AI entities that look
like real people. You know, somebody

1048
01:25:02.119 --> 01:25:05.720
wants to teach you a skill,
or somebody you know who you know you

1049
01:25:05.800 --> 01:25:10.880
want to go and talk to about
some information, but it actually looks like

1050
01:25:10.920 --> 01:25:14.560
a real person as opposed to just
you know, getting something from chat GVT.

1051
01:25:15.680 --> 01:25:18.199
And arguably there'll be more of those
than actual real people in there,

1052
01:25:18.520 --> 01:25:24.079
but you'll be using those and those
will be generating revenue for the companies that

1053
01:25:24.159 --> 01:25:29.960
are producing those, and people that
have to you know, create those generative

1054
01:25:30.000 --> 01:25:33.199
AI you know, real you know, real looking people. So you know,

1055
01:25:33.279 --> 01:25:36.720
that's the whole industry on and of
itself that will be that will be

1056
01:25:36.720 --> 01:25:41.359
coming out, you know, because
this is a new service that I've wasn't

1057
01:25:41.399 --> 01:25:45.800
able to do before. There's it's
coming from money, many different directions.

1058
01:25:45.840 --> 01:25:47.439
But when you look at ten or
twenty years from now, you know,

1059
01:25:47.520 --> 01:25:53.000
aside from the the risks that are
you know, that are associated with us,

1060
01:25:53.520 --> 01:26:00.039
I think it's going to catapult our
standard of living, our experience and

1061
01:26:00.479 --> 01:26:06.720
the joy that we have in terms
of life. And in the end,

1062
01:26:06.760 --> 01:26:10.520
I think it will be a lot
of concern over nothing because I think people

1063
01:26:10.560 --> 01:26:15.439
will have a better standard of living. And for people to remember, standard

1064
01:26:15.479 --> 01:26:17.800
of living is really about how much
leisure time do you have and how much

1065
01:26:17.920 --> 01:26:21.840
do you work? Right? You
know, that goes back to our conversations

1066
01:26:21.840 --> 01:26:26.239
with inflation and the FED and all
of that. It's a whole separate conversation.

1067
01:26:26.319 --> 01:26:30.640
But the point is I think AI
has the ability to give us back

1068
01:26:30.680 --> 01:26:33.199
more leisure time than we've had,
you know, you know, given the

1069
01:26:33.199 --> 01:26:38.079
industrial revolution and we've had three or
four revolution we should be working a five

1070
01:26:38.119 --> 01:26:42.439
hour week and we're not. It's
gotten worse, but AI has a chance

1071
01:26:42.520 --> 01:26:46.520
to help, you know, reverse
that trend of it. Right, Stephen

1072
01:26:47.079 --> 01:26:49.319
Man, I wish you had more
time. Will have to do a round

1073
01:26:49.319 --> 01:26:53.279
two and to talk more. But
I got some wrap up questions here for

1074
01:26:53.319 --> 01:27:00.279
you. Favorite food, I'm sorry, oh a wrap up questions for you,

1075
01:27:00.720 --> 01:27:04.359
rapid fire fa what's your favorite food? Oh? My favorite food?

1076
01:27:06.000 --> 01:27:15.520
It's a good question, uh delli. Favorite musician or band. Favorite musician

1077
01:27:15.680 --> 01:27:27.920
or band, tie between Billy Joel
and the Stones. Favorite movie, favorite

1078
01:27:27.960 --> 01:27:34.319
movie right now, I've been watching
Ready Player two quite a bit. And

1079
01:27:34.520 --> 01:27:44.560
favorite book, favorite book. I
can't say warm piece of it's really long,

1080
01:27:46.439 --> 01:27:49.399
believe or not since it's a good
old high school catcher in the rye.

1081
01:27:50.000 --> 01:27:55.840
Oh yeah. And when you're not
doing anything metaverse wise or crypto,

1082
01:27:55.880 --> 01:28:01.399
what are you doing for fun?
As a hobby nature as Steven? A

1083
01:28:01.439 --> 01:28:04.800
pleasure chatting with you, and thank
you for taking the time, appreciate your

1084
01:28:04.840 --> 01:28:08.239
insights, and like I said,
we'll have to do part two, but

1085
01:28:08.319 --> 01:28:11.359
thank you so much for joining me. Thanks Tony, I have a wonderful day.