WEBVTT

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You. Chilly Effect is sponsored by
Wallstreet, Window dot Com and listeners like

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you Yeah and now Aggerated Night and
a Media Kelly January tenth, twenty twenty

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four, allegedly according to that thing
we call a calendar, and I thought

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I was going to trip over it
and say twenty twenty three because I got

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used to saying it. But anyway, here we are live on a Wednesday,

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and uh, you know, new
move here. Nobody knows about it

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except me and Larry because Larryhancock will
now be on every other Wednesday, so

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that happens to be today, And
that's the way we're going to do this

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going forward, and I'm happy to
do so. Now. Larryhancock is obviously

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the author of a great many books, taking up a lot of spots on

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my bookshelf, which I was talking
to Larry about just before I went live

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here. And it's sort of funny
what I was talking to him about.

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His books usually don't collect a lot
of dust, but there's dust on the

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bookshelf, and I feel like my
my allergies are all worked up over it.

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Anyway, a huge portion of my
bookshelf taken up by Larry Hancock.

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If you go to larrydash Hancock dot
com. You can follow all sorts of

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stuff, including his blog. There'll
be a link to the WordPress and all

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that in the show notes. And
you know, a lot of different subjects,

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a lot of different books. I
could mention here someone would have talked,

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of course, that's the most obvious
one, but unidentified I thought of

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lately because I was watching that NewsNation
special. They ran the News Nation specials

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first on UAPs, then on the
JFK assassination, and other people have been

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talking to me about special things that
have been run about the JFK assassination.

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I have a feeling we're going to
talk about that a little bit tonight,

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so let's find out. But before
we get there, how you doing,

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first, Larry, how you doing. I'm good, Chuck, I'm glad

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that January is almost halfway through.
I want to just move right on to

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March. Sounds good. Let's get
to the warm weather. It has been

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cold and damp and rainy here in
Georgia, even really cold for Georgia,

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so you know, and again my
voice could be all over the place because

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of this, the weather changes and
the dust and everything else. But again,

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let's not digress. I want to
start off right away with something you

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mentioned to me in a text just
before we went to air. Because I've

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been avoiding something on purpose. A
lot of people have brought to my attention,

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and of course the WET conference brought
to a lot of people's attention,

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the Rob Rhiner efforts, the podcast, the JFK assassination. You know,

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what do we know after sixty years
all of that, Every streaming service gave

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us something. Sure, but Rob
Reiner famously right. Everybody was paying a

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lot of attention to the podcast,
and he kind of ended it up with

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a couple of well known authors in
the JFK case. But man, it's

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getting weird, and he gave he
gave notation to a couple of things that

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I really wish he didn't. I
mean, you know, I like when

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Hollywood gets involved, but I don't
like when they think they've done research.

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I got to say it's it's bad, you know. Anyway, Look,

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I'm going to keep my comments to
myself because I've avoided this podcast for the

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most part. I guess you've been
able to follow most of it or some

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of it? What what what have
you observed about it? Yeah, I've

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been following the commentary on it.
One of the things that shocked people early

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on, I think in the in
the first and second parts of the podcast,

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I mean, now he's concluded it
actually named the people that that he

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sees and given the shooting sequence and
everything, But in the very beginning,

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the first couple of sessions, he
talked about giving a lot of attention to

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Tosh plumb Lee, who we've discussed
before, as as a serious contributor to

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what he was doing, and that
that threw a lot of people off.

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And I think one of the flags
that raced early on, and you kind

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of brought this up, Chuck,
I think it's one of the things that

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we've come to face is, you
know, there are documentaries on the History

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Channel that are in no way,
shape or form history. You know,

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there's they'd never get there's no peer
review, there's no fact checking, They're

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they're just entertainment. And I think
I talked to Rob briefly at one time.

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Didn't it seemed to me like he
had already had a very classic view

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of what was going on and didn't
want to hear a lot more. And

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I think we were facing a problem
with JFK and that we're now the good

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news. It's moved to the entertainment
phase and it gets a lot of attentions

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and DVDs, and but people are
taking it as if it's established history and

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Rob Reiner is no historian. There
is no fact checking, no review for

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his his periods of pot because he
has a name. It's the old it's

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the old marketing thing. You know, you're presenting something with a spokesperson,

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and essentially he's acting as a spokesperson
for a particular view, and that that's

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that's one of our problems at the
moment, and converting what we've learned over

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the last you know, fifty years
into real history is that, you know,

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we'd kind of hope that would slide
into a new history direction and we

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could give a better history than the
Warrant Commission did, right, But now

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it's moved into this entertainment thing.
So people were worried about that at the

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very beginning, right when he introduced
ash plummelay. And now that he's kind

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of wrapped it up by naming like
four or five shooters that are from totally

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different venues, totally unrelated, a
couple of them very questionable, and and

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he's offering that is the solution,
which is essentially brought together like four different

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tracks through this this milieu that we
have been working on separating, and now

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he's plumped it all together again.
There's a channel. Okay, here,

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here are two problems I want to
present to you, right, And I

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know I'm not supposed to criticize Oliver
Stone, but guess what gonna You know,

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when Oliver Stone did his work,
I always try and forgive it by

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saying there wasn't a whole lot of
information available to fill in certain blanks,

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so some supposition was necessary, and
that was a Hollywood presentation meant to be

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a singular film, so I get
it right. But ever after, we

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have these different platforms, these different
channels, these different entertainment entities one way

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or another getting involved in documentary and
stuff like that. And for a while

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it was like, well, it's
got gravitas because the History channel it,

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it's got gravitas because ABC did it, and of course they're going to push

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the warrant commission and so on and
so forth. Like there was this this

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bit of I don't know, legitimacy
that was placed upon it because it was

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the great corporate entity that put it
out right. Then we move into a

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phase where indeed there are people in
Hollywood outside of Oliverstone who are willing to

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make the statements, and we get
happy about that for a minute. But

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then they do get some technical advisor
who obviously doesn't advise them that well.

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And even when they try to add
in legitimate people, they added into a

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mix, which is a mess.
Tosh Plumbley is going to bring you a

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mess. I mean, it's just
that simple, all right, because I

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mean, this is the guy that
they used to back up the James Files

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thing. This is a guy they
used to back up you know, their

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shooters on the other side of the
noll, which there is absolutely no proof

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for, you know what I mean, on the other side of the excuse

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me, not on the other side
of the no, on the other side

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of the of the highway, okay, like basically way over toward the other

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side of the plaza. He's putting
shooters in the other part of the woods,

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okay, which there's no good reason
to think that that exists, but

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his word right. He also claimed
to have been a witness at one point

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and seeing Kennedy's head go flying way
back from the other side of the street.

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Right, his statements alone contradict each
other. Enough, is this guy

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trustworthy? Well, you know,
if I wanted to find out about some

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other things that happened a little later
in history, I might ask Toosh Plumbley,

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I might, but I don't know
if he'd be reliable because he can't

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keep his story straight. And I'm
sorry, these are my words. These

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are not Larry Hancocks. Okay,
but I doubt Larry's going to argue with

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me too much. Well, no, And I think with Reiner, I

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think there's some responsibility here. I
mean, if you're going to say that

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you've got the story, I mean
Ryner has some money. You know,

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he could have had research assistants.
He could have gone back and find found

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as I did two decades ago.
That Toash, Plumbley has has had five

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different versions of his story since he
started talking about it as to where he

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was, what he was doing,
and he and to how he knew.

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There was one point in time where
Tash is on record is saying he has

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all the details about an attack that
was planned to occur on Main Street in

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Dallas. Was that was aborted at
the last minute. JFK and RFK were

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both told they decided to continue on
with the Motorcate with Jackie in it,

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and Tosh claimed to have known all
of this because he was briefed by a

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senior CI officer after the fact,
like who flew to to Florida just to

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breathe them? None of it made
any sense, But Reiner should have at

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least. I mean, I guess
we have all liked to consider ourselves who've

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studied this from the first generation on
as skeptics. Right, we were skeptical

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of the Warren Commission, So that
would imply that we would be skeptical of

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pretty much anything we would encounter,
and we would we would fact check it,

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and you know that sort of thing. Well, I would expect Reiner

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would at least do that much.
And in that case, you know,

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leading with Tosh kind of set a
bad example, and he just went on

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to take different cuts of different views
of different people. It's almost like a

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sampler. My impression is that if
you looked at everything that we've done in

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the world of JKA research over the
last like four decades, it was like

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a buffet and he just picked what
was most interesting. You know, Oh,

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okay, I'm going to take one
of that and we'll talk about this.

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I'm thinking, yeah, that's what
it was like, rather than any

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real construct as it were. Right, Okay, So, and here's where

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the problem is. I mean,
I give you one name off of the

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list of the five shooters and then
just ask you to try and put it

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in context with anything else that's going
on here. You know, he puts

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Nicolette on there, Charles Nicoletti.
Okay, if you know the story,

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I'll tell you where his name pops
up most prominently is in the James File

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story. Right, Nicoletti is there
most prominently. Now that's not the only

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story he pops up in, but
that is, you know, and again

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this is the mob connection. This
is a Chicago mob connection. This is

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who would have Nicoletti taken orders from? Where was Charles Nicoletti exactly at that

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time? Et cetera, et cetera. A lot of things can be done

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here to figure out whether he should
be in the mix at all. But

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he doesn't belong in the mix with
these other names that are presented at the

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end. Again, like you said, like somebody said, well, I'm

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gonna have tacos and pizza and pasta
and some chicken wings. These foods don't

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normally go together on the same plate. They don't belong together because they're not

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usually served at the same restaurant.
But again, if you're at a buffet,

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you know, if you're going to
the Golden Corral of JFK, I

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guess it works. But Nicoletti,
how do you put them in context with

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these other people even that are listed
at the end? So good as someone

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has said, you know who would
coordinate this? Even of the names of

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the shooters. The shooters are so
diverse. A couple of them well known

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and essentially deconstructed over the years,
A couple of them not well known at

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all, A couple you know,
one of them certainly a lot of argument.

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At least you could do, is
I mean, if you wanted to

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do justice to it, you could. You could put them forth and say,

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okay, Ryder could have done this. You know, this name has

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been surfaced. Here are the pros
and cons, Here's where it came up,

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Here's why it's supported, here's why
it's not. You know, some

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balance. Even the History Channel,
which we kind of all have come to

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loathe and say the non History channel
at least often has point counterpoint and it

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shows, but there's nothing like that. There's there's that Rob is offering.

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Rob is presenting it as far as
I can picture, as if you know,

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I researched this, and this is
what's true. You know, there's

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no there's no point counterpoint, and
I think that would apply to Nicolette.

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And of course, as you say, and as as people have been bringing

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up, you know, what he
is doing to some extent is introducing a

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lot of names that most of the
more serious researchers thought had already been tossed

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out right, you know, and
which will will definitely muddy the water.

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One of them Hermanio Dias Garcia,
who I've spent a lot of time with.

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In reality, the real support for
that story, which is totally undocumented,

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comes from Cuban intelligence and is a
figure in a book by Fabu Escalante,

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which was a book really about all
sorts of assassination attempts against Fidel Castro.

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And not that that part wasn't true, But Dias Garcia only arrived in

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the United States, like in the
spring of nineteen sixty three. It's hard

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to connect him to anybody other than
to say that he's reputed according to Escalante

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to have been a bodyguard for Traficante
in the old Cuba casino days. Well,

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being a bodyguard for traffic Conte doesn't
really put you in bed together with

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Nicolette and Jim Conna. You know, how does that even work? You

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know, And we'd spent a lot
of time because the name had been tossed

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around, you know it, Does
it make any sense at all? Can

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we can we connect it in any
fashion? And you know, there's some

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still some points to be worked on
that, but to assert it as if

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it were proven fact, which is
essentially what he's doing, just with no

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point counterpoint, just just bring brings
us back to where we were. It's

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kind of like he just reset the
button back to like nineteen ninety, right.

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He doesn't really incorporate anything that we've
learned from the work of the ar

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be any of you know. So
it's it's like this giant reset button and

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I'm going, oh, geez,
didn't we get didn't we already do that?

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So that's that's a concern, which
is strange because he presents Jeff Morley

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and Dick Russell in there as well, and both of them, you know,

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have done excellent work have uh furthered
the research, you know, post

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a r r B, both of
them. In my mind, I would

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say, you know, Jefferson more
okay, but but nonetheless, look,

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you're you're talking about two guys that
should be well aware that that mixed bag

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is not Whoops, I think we
lost you, Jeff. Oh, I'm

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sorry. Can you hear me still? Okay? I'm not sure if Larry

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can hear me. Maybe maybe I'll
go to a break real quick, because

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uh oh, there he is.
Okay. So what I was saying is

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that, you know, Jeff Morley
and Dick Russell should be well aware of

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this mixed bag not being workable because
Jeff has definitely done work post a r

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r B, right, uh you
know, and Dick I believe has also,

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they should be aware that this this
grab bag is not a solid grab

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bag of contenders here for just the
shooting solution. There's a lot of other

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problems along the way in the ten
episodes too, Larry, right, I

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think part of it may be timing
too. Just I've not really had a

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chance to talk to either Dick or
Jeff about this, but my impression is

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that he had talked to Dick fairly
early on, you know, like some

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years ago, even maybe more recently
with Jeff, But certainly in my conversations

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with Jeff, who I talked to
fairly routinely, I don't think he's included.

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I don't think he's in the same
space Jeff is now, you know.

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And so that that gets back to
the issue of, you know,

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because he might have heard something from
Dick several years ago, is that really

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current thought. It's hard to say
if he's curting, and you know,

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to be fair, you wouldn't want
to really blame either one of those fellows

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if they didn't get a chance to
listen to, you know, his podcast,

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or at least do, like I
say, do some fact checking with

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him, even if they'd been his
sources, you know, to see if

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if they have any current concerns.
I'm pretty sure Jeff would be concerned about

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the plumb Lee part. But as
it's that that's where we're facing this.

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We were congratulating ourselves a few months
back, I think, because oh,

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well, with the anniversary and now
the subject has become more popular in the

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media, it's getting more coverage,
and as if that were a good thing.

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And then suddenly I'm going, well, you know the old coverage is

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it's not public relations, you know, it's it's not all good, not

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if you're really looking for some history. Well there's the trouble, right is

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that? Okay? I took note
of everybody said to me, well,

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you should be really pleased because every
you know, I noted, every single

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streaming platform had something out about the
assassination. Multiple networks did things about the

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assassination that wasn't always true, and
it was interesting, but I noted every

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time they were making huge mistakes all
over the place, and it wasn't just

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like let's make that mistake that's going
to only support the Warrant Commission, you

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know, or let's just say,
oh, well, the government concluded,

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like like a couple of them did
not even mention that the House Select Committee

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had happened, right. Some of
them would mention other odd things and say

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like, you know, the Zapruder
film had not been seen anywhere at all

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until you know, it showed up
on Heraldo's show. And I'm going,

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well, these guys don't know the
history of things like that. I guess,

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you know, I'm trying to be
forgiving of the different mistakes all over

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the place, and the truth is, it seems like the fact checkers were

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working full time on the Warren commissioned
supporter shows because they got most of their

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stuff straight. They ignored, they
left out a bunch of things, but

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what they presented was done right.
And yet on the other side, we

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have something completely different happening. And
you know, when you take a look

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at an Amazon pushed up forward that
was terrible what they presented as new stuff

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and what they then brought back around
as old stuff. They brought back around

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antiquated things that were outdated. And
you know, there was a couple other

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networks that decided to play the Men
who Killed Kennedy by the way over again,

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you know, and I'm like,
wow, I don't know where the

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licenses went for that. I guess
History Channel is no longer penalizing anybody for

263
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that stuff because there were independent networks
doing that, like Newsmax on its cable

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channel was I think the Men who
Killed Kennedy? You know what I'm saying,

265
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right, And I saw the same
discussions online about oh well, what

266
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happened to that one thing that covered
Johnson or like these are the same decisions

267
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I saw twenty years ago. And
now we're back having the same discussions,

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well because in some cases they were
rerunning the same crap and exactly so obviously

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the new person, the person who
wasn't interested in this fifteen years ago,

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now comes around, looks at it
and goes, oh, this is new.

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No, it's not. We saw
this in nineteen ninety nine, you

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know, we saw this in two
thousand and three, we saw this in

273
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you know what I mean. It's
like so between that and then, like

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I said, Amazon's best big piece
there for a second, and thankfully it

275
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didn't catch fire. Really was you
know, a body swapping. You know,

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Kennedy faked his death documentary, no
kidding, one of those, all

277
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right, And I'm going, what
in the hell is going on here?

278
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And then people tell me, yeah, but this Rob Reiner thing, I'm

279
00:22:02.079 --> 00:22:07.839
telling you, it's big, And
the WET conference actually featured stuff from those

280
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people, you know, and I'm
going, Wow, okay, glad I'm

281
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not involved with that. Part of
what depresses me, I think is we

282
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complained so long and so hard about
the Warren Commission, right, and we

283
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we praised the people that were the
first generation skeptics that found all of the

284
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problems with the Warren Commission report,
even the Warren Commission report versus the volumes,

285
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you know, and we praised people
like Sylvia Meyer who were like fact

286
00:22:42.839 --> 00:22:48.839
checkers and showing inconsistencies. And so
for years and years and years we have

287
00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:55.000
panned and cursed and whatever the Warren
Commission for doing things that we're not doing

288
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now, Like, okay, where
did all the skeptics go for the conspiracy

289
00:22:59.279 --> 00:23:04.440
stuff? Where were we raised all
sorts of issues like well, this is

290
00:23:04.480 --> 00:23:08.119
inconsistent with that, and how do
you connect these dots? And where's this?

291
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And we slam the Warrant Commission and
the Dallas Police and everybody all the

292
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time for doing that, But we
don't do it to our own stuff,

293
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right, And that's a problem,
you know. We can't. We can't.

294
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It's certainly not even handed. You
know, if there are two views

295
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in play here, you ought to
be on the same plane field for both.

296
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You can't criticize them and then not
apply any of those same standards to

297
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what we're generating out of the conspiracy
community. Right. That's the thing is

298
00:23:41.880 --> 00:23:48.319
that that now there's no standard and
the idea that you don't just automatically agree

299
00:23:48.319 --> 00:23:55.400
with anything that is other than the
official conclusion is a problem. You know,

300
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and this is again the same thing
that I was complaining about for years

301
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on this show is exactly this,
and it got worse. It didn't get

302
00:24:03.799 --> 00:24:07.200
any better. You know. I'm
sorry. I guess I had no effect.

303
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I really wanted to have an effect
on this and say, look,

304
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why don't we begin to police this
stuff on our side and say, you

305
00:24:15.960 --> 00:24:23.519
know, look, there's got to
be some level of realistic judgment on this.

306
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There's got to be some way to
peer review these things among people who

307
00:24:27.480 --> 00:24:30.480
know the facts to say, look, you know, this is sort of

308
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a ridiculous thing. And all of
this stuff just continues to permeate and just

309
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gains popularity, like it's a meme
online. It's just if people like it,

310
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great, they'll share it, it'll
go viral. That's all there is

311
00:24:44.240 --> 00:24:47.920
to it. Now, you know, there's no like. It's not because

312
00:24:47.960 --> 00:24:51.799
the facts fit, it's not because
it answers questions. It's not because it

313
00:24:51.880 --> 00:24:56.880
adequately you know, explains all of
the oddities. It's not. None of

314
00:24:56.920 --> 00:25:03.200
that is there. And it's it's
really kind of depressing because that's the stuff

315
00:25:03.319 --> 00:25:06.640
that personally, I used to be
very impressed with where it was like,

316
00:25:06.680 --> 00:25:11.960
look, can you explain the oddities? You know? Very much like with

317
00:25:11.119 --> 00:25:17.240
the different circumstances. I don't know. It's like you're supposed to just accept

318
00:25:17.279 --> 00:25:21.720
things because they are of the conspiracy
side of the equation, you know,

319
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and whatever it is, the more
mysterious they are, the better. Again,

320
00:25:25.799 --> 00:25:29.920
it's it's sort of like the more
mysterious, the more Oh, we

321
00:25:30.039 --> 00:25:34.119
don't have answers, that makes it
credible. Yeah, And we're kind of

322
00:25:34.119 --> 00:25:37.480
playing that game like, well,
it could be anything one of the you

323
00:25:37.519 --> 00:25:42.000
and I've discussed. One of the
things that continues to bug me is if

324
00:25:42.519 --> 00:25:48.319
you throw out everything right, Like, I can't accept anything from the police,

325
00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:52.759
I can't accept anything from the FBI. I can't accept any witness,

326
00:25:53.039 --> 00:25:57.960
and I can't accept any except anybody
that says anything about Lee Oswald that I

327
00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:03.039
really don't like. It doesn't make
them look like innocent whatever. If I

328
00:26:03.119 --> 00:26:07.880
just automatically throw out all that I
have no data. One of the things

329
00:26:07.880 --> 00:26:11.279
that strikes me is like, well, one of the places we end up

330
00:26:11.279 --> 00:26:17.640
with is we do so much it's
speculative because it has to be speculative because

331
00:26:17.680 --> 00:26:21.559
you threw out everything like that means
I can make up my own story,

332
00:26:22.359 --> 00:26:25.920
believe it or not, because there
are no facts to hold me respond.

333
00:26:26.240 --> 00:26:29.960
It's easier that way. Well,
see, yeah, believe it or not.

334
00:26:30.039 --> 00:26:32.799
I want to simplify this though a
little bit for the listener, because

335
00:26:33.119 --> 00:26:37.480
this is a huge, huge problem
where Okay, you start discussing documents with

336
00:26:37.519 --> 00:26:44.440
somebody, Eventually you'll find an argument, well, all the documents are you

337
00:26:44.480 --> 00:26:47.519
know, obviously they destroyed everything that
they didn't want you to see, so

338
00:26:47.599 --> 00:26:52.960
those documents aren't legitimate. Okay.
Then you say, well, you know,

339
00:26:52.039 --> 00:26:56.799
based on the different parts of the
investigation that we're conducted, we know

340
00:26:56.880 --> 00:27:00.079
this, we know that. Well, the cops all lied. Okay,

341
00:27:00.519 --> 00:27:04.359
fine, the cops all lied.
Well what about the FBI reports? And

342
00:27:04.359 --> 00:27:07.920
then they go, well, the
FBI is obviously covering it up, so

343
00:27:07.960 --> 00:27:11.039
they're lying. And you go,
okay, what about the film Well,

344
00:27:11.079 --> 00:27:15.079
the films have all been tampered with, so none of those are reliable.

345
00:27:15.839 --> 00:27:19.960
And at the end of it,
one by one, every single area I

346
00:27:21.039 --> 00:27:22.640
wind up going through, I go, all right, so tell me what

347
00:27:22.920 --> 00:27:30.240
is it that you think is legitimate? Okay? What is legitimate that is

348
00:27:30.279 --> 00:27:36.000
publicly accessible, that is in evidence? Okay? Not not your ideas,

349
00:27:36.039 --> 00:27:40.880
not your speculation, not your you
know, theory, but in all honesty,

350
00:27:41.000 --> 00:27:45.240
what is a legitimate piece of evidence? Let us begin there. And

351
00:27:45.319 --> 00:27:48.680
you know what, there's a lot
of people out there that don't have an

352
00:27:48.759 --> 00:27:52.559
idea about what could be a legitimate
piece of evidence. It's all illegitimate.

353
00:27:52.839 --> 00:27:56.079
In other words, everything is faked. Everybody's lying, nobody's telling you the

354
00:27:56.079 --> 00:28:00.640
truth for all different reasons. And
so you left with you know, at

355
00:28:00.640 --> 00:28:03.559
the end of it, I throw
my hands and go, well, then

356
00:28:03.599 --> 00:28:07.599
there is nothing for me to discuss
with you, because what am I supposed

357
00:28:07.640 --> 00:28:11.480
to do. I'm making an observation
that two observations, one of which will

358
00:28:11.519 --> 00:28:15.279
make people mad. I will say, as an author, you can write

359
00:28:15.279 --> 00:28:21.119
a lot more quickly that way,
because you don't need footnotes or endnotes or

360
00:28:21.440 --> 00:28:23.759
or source just you can just go, okay, you can just go,

361
00:28:26.319 --> 00:28:30.759
and it'd be a lot faster.
The other thing is it's also a lot

362
00:28:30.880 --> 00:28:37.000
easier to engage in social media forms
whatever that way, because you're not handicapped

363
00:28:37.200 --> 00:28:41.319
again by sources. I keep telling
everyone, the reason I can't really engage

364
00:28:41.359 --> 00:28:48.480
meaningful and online is the conversations we
get into can't be carried out with like

365
00:28:48.599 --> 00:28:52.200
three posts of twenty words each.
There, you know, you want to

366
00:28:52.200 --> 00:28:56.000
give me six hours and let me
sait two hours of contact or before we

367
00:28:56.079 --> 00:29:00.359
even talk, then we can get
serious. But if you're not bound by

368
00:29:00.440 --> 00:29:04.599
any if you're not bound by any
data, then you can just go at

369
00:29:04.640 --> 00:29:07.160
it. You know, I believe
this. I believe that. I believe

370
00:29:07.200 --> 00:29:11.000
this. I don't trust that it's
all you, so it goes much more

371
00:29:11.039 --> 00:29:15.960
quickly. Yeah. No, And
the other problem here is that. And

372
00:29:15.559 --> 00:29:18.400
now, now here's the thing.
I just threw out all that different evidence,

373
00:29:18.480 --> 00:29:21.240
right and I said, okay,
forget it. You can't listen to

374
00:29:21.240 --> 00:29:23.599
the photographs, you can't listen to
the recordings, you can't go with the

375
00:29:23.640 --> 00:29:27.200
timelines. Okay, fine, all
that stuff you toss aside. What is

376
00:29:27.240 --> 00:29:32.599
it that people will accept, Well, they do accept testimony on one level

377
00:29:32.680 --> 00:29:37.279
or another. Right, somebody's story, This person said this, and I

378
00:29:37.359 --> 00:29:41.240
believe that person because they should have
been in the know. That's usually where

379
00:29:41.240 --> 00:29:44.799
you get to when they think all
the evidence is faked. Right now,

380
00:29:44.880 --> 00:29:48.839
there's problems with that because every time
I turn around, okay, you got

381
00:29:48.880 --> 00:29:52.119
you got people like Kosh Plumley.
I mean, you know, pick one

382
00:29:52.200 --> 00:29:55.200
end of the pool or the other. What he said. You got others,

383
00:29:55.759 --> 00:29:59.880
you know, like Frank Sturgis.
Let's say, all right, let's

384
00:30:00.119 --> 00:30:03.839
bring up another name that'll confuse people. Frank Sturgis might have told you different

385
00:30:03.880 --> 00:30:07.079
stories at different times, allegedly said
something to some cop. But wait a

386
00:30:07.119 --> 00:30:10.240
minute. You don't usually trust the
cops. Yeah, but I trust that

387
00:30:10.319 --> 00:30:15.440
cop. Okay, Larry, And
then you have the stories and this is

388
00:30:15.480 --> 00:30:18.559
the thing that you brought again.
I keep pointing this out because I was

389
00:30:18.640 --> 00:30:23.039
really moved by this when I heard
you say it, you know, and

390
00:30:23.119 --> 00:30:27.079
I was waiting for like noise from
the back of the room, from you

391
00:30:27.119 --> 00:30:30.920
know, gass from people that I
know absolutely relied on the kind of thing

392
00:30:30.920 --> 00:30:36.480
that you said. You're being ridiculous
if you're relying on a guy who's like

393
00:30:36.559 --> 00:30:41.079
ninety years old to now tell you
his new story, even though he's already

394
00:30:41.079 --> 00:30:45.359
told the story fifty times other times
over fifty years since you discovered him.

395
00:30:45.519 --> 00:30:48.319
You know, now he's ninety and
tells you a story, now you accept

396
00:30:48.359 --> 00:30:53.960
it. Not a good way to
go, not reliable testimony fifty years later.

397
00:30:55.640 --> 00:31:00.680
Witnesses do not age well. They
don't like Malcus only good for three

398
00:31:00.759 --> 00:31:06.680
weeks. Witnesses are not good for
sixty years. What is can you you

399
00:31:06.720 --> 00:31:10.799
know, can you accept anything that
is you know, I mean it's seriously

400
00:31:11.519 --> 00:31:15.839
and I think we can. But
one of the other things, and I

401
00:31:15.880 --> 00:31:18.839
think this is to get back to
Ryan Er, I think this is a

402
00:31:18.960 --> 00:31:22.440
perfect case. If if you're going
to get that amount of airtime and that

403
00:31:22.519 --> 00:31:29.319
amount of FaceTime, you have a
responsibility and you have a responsibility to check

404
00:31:29.359 --> 00:31:33.119
your sources. You really do.
You have a responsibility to see the other

405
00:31:33.279 --> 00:31:37.400
side. I mean, if we
if we're going to hold the Warren Commission's

406
00:31:37.400 --> 00:31:40.319
feet to the fire, then okay, we ought to hold ourselves the fire.

407
00:31:40.599 --> 00:31:42.119
I'll give you an example. It
just came up this last week.

408
00:31:42.319 --> 00:31:49.759
Okay, someone made a post again
about doctor Berkeley moving President Kennedy's body out

409
00:31:49.799 --> 00:31:55.079
of Dallas, you know, and
I made a post back about something Berkeley

410
00:31:55.079 --> 00:31:56.960
had said about well, you know, it was clear at the time,

411
00:31:57.559 --> 00:32:01.720
you know, there was no there
there was no criminal investigation, the police

412
00:32:01.799 --> 00:32:07.599
were not involved when they were taking
the body away. Berkeley said, you

413
00:32:07.599 --> 00:32:12.279
know, the only way a legal
post mortem would have been available at that

414
00:32:12.319 --> 00:32:15.519
point in time was for the family
to sign the paperwork to do it,

415
00:32:16.240 --> 00:32:21.759
or for a court to order the
autopsy. Okay, now we know that

416
00:32:21.759 --> 00:32:25.119
that did happen in DC when the
Kennedy family ordered it, but that's not

417
00:32:25.279 --> 00:32:31.359
happened in the Dallas. Jackie is
traumatized. And someone came back to me

418
00:32:31.480 --> 00:32:35.920
and posted something and this this struck
me. It's kind of like, wow,

419
00:32:36.039 --> 00:32:37.680
now I've missed this and we have
all missed this. They said,

420
00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:44.519
well, what about that phone call
from Air Force one ordering from Johnson personally

421
00:32:44.680 --> 00:32:47.880
ordering the body to be taken back
to Washington, DC. And I said,

422
00:32:47.920 --> 00:32:52.559
well, where'd that come from.
I've never heard anybody say that.

423
00:32:52.839 --> 00:32:58.920
It's never been We've argued this point
for decades now before I has been argued

424
00:32:58.920 --> 00:33:02.000
before I came along. Yes,
I said, well, somebody just posted

425
00:33:02.039 --> 00:33:08.079
that. Back in nineteen seventy five, a book was written that says Jack

426
00:33:08.200 --> 00:33:14.519
Valenti said he was setting by Linda
Johnson on Air Force one and he heard

427
00:33:14.559 --> 00:33:19.519
him make a call to somebody.
He didn't know who. Now we don't

428
00:33:19.720 --> 00:33:22.559
since we don't know who, we
don't know where where. But anyway,

429
00:33:22.920 --> 00:33:29.640
the inference was it was Johnson that
made the call to tell the Secret Service

430
00:33:29.799 --> 00:33:34.759
to bring that goudy guns blazing if
necessary, take the body. I said,

431
00:33:34.759 --> 00:33:38.720
well, okay, that's that's pretty
fascinating. Are you going to research

432
00:33:38.799 --> 00:33:43.200
that? Can? Can we can
confirm that? You know, when did

433
00:33:43.279 --> 00:33:46.200
Valenti say it occurred with Johnson on
the plane at that time? Was Jackie

434
00:33:46.200 --> 00:33:50.480
and the body? And who's going
to do the legwork to see if that's

435
00:33:50.519 --> 00:33:55.519
even possible? And what you heard
was a big resounding nobody. It's like,

436
00:33:55.680 --> 00:34:02.000
okay, you can't just posit that
out to nowhere and explain a mystery

437
00:34:02.720 --> 00:34:07.680
and let it lay because somebody wrote
it in a book in nineteen seventy five,

438
00:34:07.759 --> 00:34:09.519
for lord's sake. Well, and
sadly you could say, maybe it's

439
00:34:09.559 --> 00:34:13.760
true, but yeah, maybe it
is true. Yeah, you got to

440
00:34:13.760 --> 00:34:15.480
do the homework, and you could
start with, Look, there was media

441
00:34:15.559 --> 00:34:23.079
coverage of the body leaving the hospital. There's media coverage of Johnson leaving the

442
00:34:23.119 --> 00:34:28.760
hospital. That gives you a clock. Okay, it shows you when the

443
00:34:28.800 --> 00:34:32.679
body left, It shows you when
Johnson left. Okay, pretty simple.

444
00:34:32.760 --> 00:34:37.800
Right. Manchester has a very detailed
chronology in his book, and we have

445
00:34:37.880 --> 00:34:43.679
a very detailed chronology of what Johnson
was doing when he got on the aircraft.

446
00:34:43.880 --> 00:34:47.199
Yeah. I mean what we've heard
from people that were there is that

447
00:34:47.519 --> 00:34:51.840
he didn't settle down by a phone. I mean, he just was running

448
00:34:52.119 --> 00:34:54.519
up and down the aisle looking at
TV monitors and doing that. You know,

449
00:34:54.599 --> 00:34:59.760
So when could it be that Valenti
would have set down beside him to

450
00:34:59.800 --> 00:35:01.639
hear and him on the phone.
It's not on the Air Force one tape

451
00:35:02.079 --> 00:35:06.400
all of Johnson's calls that we know, So that's another thing. It's kind

452
00:35:06.440 --> 00:35:08.920
of like, if we accept that, that means somebody scrubbed that off the

453
00:35:08.960 --> 00:35:15.199
Air Force one tape, but they
didn't even scrub off this exchange with RFKR

454
00:35:15.519 --> 00:35:19.159
or which Johnson lies. But they
didn't scrub that, but they scrubbed this,

455
00:35:19.719 --> 00:35:22.960
you know. So especially since it's
not on the tape, you've got

456
00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:25.519
to prove it in I think it
would be great if you could prove it

457
00:35:25.599 --> 00:35:30.119
and get one more mystery out of
the way. But nobody's doing that kind

458
00:35:30.119 --> 00:35:36.320
of homework now, right because it's
just easier to say, oh, you

459
00:35:36.320 --> 00:35:40.159
know that's the answer. Well I
don't know that. That's the answering.

460
00:35:40.280 --> 00:35:45.079
Essentially the same thing saying I got
all the answers. But that's well,

461
00:35:45.159 --> 00:35:49.719
say Rob and that's the crazy thing, is BLENTI would be a guy who

462
00:35:49.760 --> 00:35:53.719
was in the know. But yeah, it doesn't mean that he accurately related

463
00:35:53.760 --> 00:35:58.480
the story. Okay, it just
doesn't. I'm sorry. So you better,

464
00:35:59.400 --> 00:36:01.440
you know, back that up.
You better come with some verification,

465
00:36:02.440 --> 00:36:07.079
right, you better come with corroboration
regarding this. As you said, Manchester

466
00:36:07.119 --> 00:36:12.440
has got a great chronology. But
also again, you can study the media

467
00:36:12.519 --> 00:36:15.920
that day. You can get a
clock as to when the body left.

468
00:36:15.960 --> 00:36:20.320
You can get a clock as to
when Johnson had departed. Okay, you

469
00:36:20.360 --> 00:36:24.639
can do all that and then try
and put this together because to my knowledge,

470
00:36:24.679 --> 00:36:28.360
I don't think there would have been
a lot of time where he's telling

471
00:36:28.400 --> 00:36:31.159
them he's already on the plane and
telling the hospital to go get it.

472
00:36:31.239 --> 00:36:35.800
I mean, in my mind,
maybe I'm remembering this wrong. Yeah,

473
00:36:35.800 --> 00:36:37.159
but I don't think there would have
been there would have been time to do

474
00:36:37.199 --> 00:36:43.199
that. You can One of the
things that you can do from the Air

475
00:36:43.199 --> 00:36:47.320
Force one tape is you can see
exactly when Johnson started making telephone calls.

476
00:36:47.639 --> 00:36:52.360
Right, because one of the things
that we know from the Secret Service agents

477
00:36:52.440 --> 00:36:55.880
on the plane was that when Johnson
first got on the plane, he didn't

478
00:36:55.880 --> 00:37:01.360
really even somebody had to tell him
there was a telephone available, because in

479
00:37:01.400 --> 00:37:06.119
those days, let's face it,
you didn't get on a plane and use

480
00:37:06.119 --> 00:37:09.880
a telephone that would work on Air
Force one. It would not work on

481
00:37:10.079 --> 00:37:15.360
a normal airplane in nineteen sixty three, you know, So somebody had to

482
00:37:15.400 --> 00:37:19.360
make him away. He could even
start making telephone calls, right there was

483
00:37:19.679 --> 00:37:24.039
the phone was back in the private
presidential area, so Valente would have to

484
00:37:24.079 --> 00:37:29.239
be back there so it could be
checked. And I think that would be

485
00:37:29.320 --> 00:37:34.639
great, But it's just again,
if we're going to hold ourselves to the

486
00:37:34.679 --> 00:37:40.320
same standards that we hold the Warren
Commission into, you need to check it

487
00:37:40.360 --> 00:37:46.960
out before you assert it as fact, right right. And meanwhile, I'm

488
00:37:47.039 --> 00:37:52.840
thinking that Johnson could not make a
direct order to the Secret Service. He'd

489
00:37:52.880 --> 00:37:55.039
have to get the head of the
Secret Service, who was back in Washington,

490
00:37:55.079 --> 00:38:00.199
to issue the order to the Secret
Service. So this means there has

491
00:38:00.239 --> 00:38:05.719
to be communication here, uh,
in order for that order to get transmitted

492
00:38:05.760 --> 00:38:09.280
from Johnson. It's just look,
there's just a lot of problems here,

493
00:38:09.280 --> 00:38:13.559
and that doesn't happen in a matter
of seconds. It still didn't happen in

494
00:38:13.599 --> 00:38:15.760
a matter of seconds, even with
the best technological setup at that point in

495
00:38:15.840 --> 00:38:22.039
time. Anyway, and this is
me speculating about it and trying to say,

496
00:38:22.079 --> 00:38:25.519
these are the questions I would need
to answer in order to satisfactorily say

497
00:38:25.519 --> 00:38:30.079
that's the way it went down.
Uh maybe I'm craid that just it gets

498
00:38:30.079 --> 00:38:35.800
back to if you're offering alternative history, which is what all of us really,

499
00:38:36.079 --> 00:38:38.440
you know, we would we would
like to offer an alternative to the

500
00:38:38.480 --> 00:38:43.840
official story, right right, Well, that means that your history, you

501
00:38:43.880 --> 00:38:45.920
know, it has to be treated
as if it were history. You've got

502
00:38:45.960 --> 00:38:50.320
to be open about what you know, what you don't know. Uh.

503
00:38:50.400 --> 00:38:52.639
It was we talked about this before
a little bit. I think it was

504
00:38:53.880 --> 00:39:00.800
was fascinating when when we see that, uh, you know, even even

505
00:39:00.840 --> 00:39:05.519
on the Warren commissioned staff. Uh, there were memos written that said we

506
00:39:05.599 --> 00:39:09.800
can't say this. You knowel Lebeler
writes a memo that says, here are

507
00:39:09.880 --> 00:39:14.320
thirty things that we can't say in
the report because we really don't know for

508
00:39:14.360 --> 00:39:17.480
sure. And you're saying this as
if it was positive, positively true,

509
00:39:19.320 --> 00:39:22.079
you know. And he writes that
memo and nobody wants to read it,

510
00:39:22.199 --> 00:39:28.800
right, So at least there was
some some internal level of consciousness from the

511
00:39:28.800 --> 00:39:32.039
commissioners themselves, you know, at
least at least they had some level of

512
00:39:32.599 --> 00:39:36.800
well, you know, and in
the end, of course they decided to

513
00:39:36.840 --> 00:39:39.760
waive all that. Well, bad
on them, But we don't want to

514
00:39:39.760 --> 00:39:44.440
be the same way. Well,
that's the other thing here is, for

515
00:39:44.519 --> 00:39:47.199
all the complaining anybody can do about
the official story, you're doing a worse

516
00:39:47.320 --> 00:39:52.679
job of it by accepting all this
nonsense that contradicts itself. And that's the

517
00:39:52.719 --> 00:39:57.920
other problem, is just the logic
of it contradicting. Okay, how could

518
00:39:57.960 --> 00:40:00.119
you put those five people together,
like you said, right, I mean,

519
00:40:00.440 --> 00:40:07.840
it's it's not even comprehensible, comprehendible
in my mind to assemble these people,

520
00:40:07.519 --> 00:40:10.880
you know what I mean. And
they're shooting in a coordinated fashion.

521
00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:15.760
But by the way, you just
you can't have them. They've got to

522
00:40:15.880 --> 00:40:23.039
function as a tactical paramilitary team in
the six seconds, right, yeah,

523
00:40:23.079 --> 00:40:28.559
I mean, I mean, you
don't just like plumbing, you just don't

524
00:40:28.599 --> 00:40:32.360
send five people to the plaza and
they end up shooting at the same point,

525
00:40:32.519 --> 00:40:37.199
just over the same six seconds of
time, from five different locations.

526
00:40:37.239 --> 00:40:42.800
No less, you know, how
does that work? How does that work?

527
00:40:42.880 --> 00:40:46.880
Rob? Tell me brings, bring
a military person into this dialogue and

528
00:40:46.920 --> 00:40:52.119
tell me what has to be done
to make that work. Don't just assert

529
00:40:52.119 --> 00:40:54.440
it? Yeah, I mean,
because look, if you even open to

530
00:40:54.559 --> 00:40:58.440
just open speculation, right, somebody
could say, well, look if you

531
00:40:58.719 --> 00:41:02.440
dispatched in whatever number of shooters you
wanted and gave them all the same signal

532
00:41:02.840 --> 00:41:07.880
and they were all supposed to shoot
at the same time, right, that

533
00:41:07.440 --> 00:41:09.840
this is this is a way to
go at it, and then and then

534
00:41:09.880 --> 00:41:15.199
they all did and some of them
didn't. Maybe, Okay, that's great

535
00:41:15.239 --> 00:41:17.719
and all, But you know,
I could also assume that there were one

536
00:41:17.760 --> 00:41:22.840
hundred guns there and only three of
them fired. You know, we we

537
00:41:22.960 --> 00:41:27.360
we could go through many different assumptions
that are wide open. Right. Well,

538
00:41:27.400 --> 00:41:30.719
if somebody pointed out and you did
that so you could blame it all

539
00:41:30.800 --> 00:41:36.360
on one guy. Yeah, there's
people had them all shooting simultaneously, and

540
00:41:36.440 --> 00:41:39.760
your plan was to blame it on
one guy. If nobody gets on this

541
00:41:39.800 --> 00:41:44.159
one guy, tell us how that
worked too, if nobody gets caught,

542
00:41:44.559 --> 00:41:49.880
And mind you, five people got
the escaped as well, right, I

543
00:41:49.880 --> 00:41:54.079
mean, you know, given Nicoletti's
age and you know, it's kind of

544
00:41:54.119 --> 00:41:59.039
like saying, I mean, I'm
surprised they didn't name Roselli, But I

545
00:41:59.079 --> 00:42:02.519
mean, you want to take all
these old guys who can not move all

546
00:42:02.599 --> 00:42:07.199
that well anyway, and have them
score good shots when they haven't fired a

547
00:42:07.320 --> 00:42:12.679
rifle for ages, and then have
them get away right because they're trained in

548
00:42:12.760 --> 00:42:17.280
how to do that. Sure.
I mean, I remember talking to a

549
00:42:17.320 --> 00:42:22.159
guy who knew Nicoletti at one point
and him laughing at the idea that Nicoletti

550
00:42:22.159 --> 00:42:27.920
would use a rifle even, you
know, like, yeah, the same

551
00:42:28.039 --> 00:42:30.320
with Roselle. We talked to some
people and knew Roselle and knew it that

552
00:42:30.519 --> 00:42:34.079
at that point in time, and
they're going, now, you've got to

553
00:42:34.119 --> 00:42:39.400
be kidding. It's just it's laughable. So so anyway, and I don't

554
00:42:39.760 --> 00:42:42.840
I was going to say, I
don't want to be too critical, but

555
00:42:43.000 --> 00:42:45.880
on the other hand, yes,
I do, because if you're going to

556
00:42:45.960 --> 00:42:52.480
offer offer something that not just me, but generations of people have been working

557
00:42:52.519 --> 00:42:57.480
on to find the right story,
you need to have a little responsibility to

558
00:42:57.599 --> 00:43:00.119
all of them to make it as
right as you can make it so people

559
00:43:00.199 --> 00:43:09.039
don't laugh at it or people believe
it and then then it gets deconstructed.

560
00:43:10.159 --> 00:43:15.559
I had somebody call me up,
actually had a couple of people call me

561
00:43:15.679 --> 00:43:20.199
up after the special with the Dallas
doctors was on, and they knew nothing

562
00:43:20.239 --> 00:43:23.159
about this subject, and they were
all excited about what they had heard.

563
00:43:23.360 --> 00:43:29.119
And it's like, well, okay, you know, tell me what you

564
00:43:29.239 --> 00:43:31.559
got out of that. And they
said, well, what I got of

565
00:43:31.559 --> 00:43:37.920
that. Out of that was every
single doctor at Parkland knew immediately after the

566
00:43:37.000 --> 00:43:40.800
assassination when they'd seen the body,
that the president had been shot from the

567
00:43:40.800 --> 00:43:50.440
front. Well, not quite that
simple, you know. So again we're

568
00:43:50.440 --> 00:43:55.159
at the point now we blamed the
mass media right for crafting the Warren commissioned

569
00:43:55.239 --> 00:44:00.920
story and the CIA for issuing an
internal memorandum that says, okay, everybody,

570
00:44:00.920 --> 00:44:07.039
you've got to help us defend the
official story. Now we're crafting the

571
00:44:07.119 --> 00:44:14.440
unofficial story. Anyway. It doesn't
feel good. Yeah, And the unwritten

572
00:44:14.440 --> 00:44:17.320
memo is, now, look,
you got to support everything that supports conspiracy,

573
00:44:17.360 --> 00:44:20.840
otherwise you're a bad guy. I
mean, really, that's what it

574
00:44:20.880 --> 00:44:24.639
comes down to. H And if
you question even some of these things,

575
00:44:24.639 --> 00:44:29.079
it's the weirdest thing, I'm telling
you. And I had this experience with

576
00:44:29.119 --> 00:44:32.000
the Judy Baker things still still which
by the way, he had a kind

577
00:44:32.000 --> 00:44:36.920
of a tacit endorsement of her,
I think earlier on in his podcast from

578
00:44:36.960 --> 00:44:39.320
what I understand, Yeah, you
know where it's like, well and she

579
00:44:39.440 --> 00:44:45.239
says, and it's like, really, he didn't really leave much out.

580
00:44:45.639 --> 00:44:49.639
No he didn't. I mean I
don't think he did. The driver shot

581
00:44:49.719 --> 00:44:52.920
him. I don't think he did
that. But other than that, you

582
00:44:52.960 --> 00:44:55.079
know, I guess it could have
been worse. It could have been worse.

583
00:44:55.960 --> 00:44:59.760
But at the end of the day, he leaves us with a g

584
00:45:00.039 --> 00:45:04.320
a bag of easily beaten down.
If somebody uses logic, you know again,

585
00:45:05.039 --> 00:45:07.159
Uh, as much as I can't
stand Gerald posnor one thing, is

586
00:45:07.199 --> 00:45:13.400
he at least sticks to a logical
story. Uh you know, I'm just

587
00:45:14.199 --> 00:45:17.800
well, it makes it difficult for
the rest to follow on behind. You

588
00:45:17.840 --> 00:45:24.239
know, if if I was to
go out and and talk to everybody that

589
00:45:24.440 --> 00:45:29.760
viewed that series and say, well, it's not here's here's the problem and

590
00:45:29.800 --> 00:45:32.039
maybe it wasn't quite you know,
they would look at me like, well,

591
00:45:32.880 --> 00:45:38.320
what could you possibly know? You
know? Uh, it, because

592
00:45:38.360 --> 00:45:44.199
he has that will have the kind
of reach that it has and the kind

593
00:45:44.239 --> 00:45:47.239
of mind share that it has,
it's going to be very hard to back

594
00:45:47.280 --> 00:45:52.320
away from it. People will think
that they now know. Uh. And

595
00:45:52.360 --> 00:45:58.320
if you disagree, as you said, suddenly you're you know, we're kind

596
00:45:58.320 --> 00:46:00.599
of like, Okay, if if
we just agreed with the Warrant Commission,

597
00:46:01.000 --> 00:46:06.119
we were idiots. Now we disagree
with this scenario, we're idiots. We

598
00:46:06.239 --> 00:46:07.880
just can't get out of that.
Yeah, one way or another, you're

599
00:46:07.880 --> 00:46:14.039
gonna you're gonna be branded as an
idiot because you've objected to the wrong thing.

600
00:46:14.920 --> 00:46:17.719
Uh what what what can you do
when you're looking for I don't know,

601
00:46:19.119 --> 00:46:23.360
an actual solution, you know,
a reasonable, plausible explanation of the

602
00:46:23.440 --> 00:46:29.480
history here, given the facts,
given the evidence that exists. Uh.

603
00:46:29.519 --> 00:46:31.280
And again, if you're going to
throw out all the evidence, and I

604
00:46:31.320 --> 00:46:36.000
have this problem all the time where
you know, again, I'll begin explaining

605
00:46:36.039 --> 00:46:38.840
something and they just find a way
to throw out that evidence. You know,

606
00:46:39.360 --> 00:46:43.760
you can't trust the cops, Okay, you can't trust the documents.

607
00:46:43.840 --> 00:46:46.360
Okay, you can't trust the films. Okay, you can't trust any of

608
00:46:46.400 --> 00:46:51.480
the medical evidence. Okay, where
do you want me to go? Don't

609
00:46:51.480 --> 00:46:54.320
trust what Lee Oswell said either oh
okay, yeah right, not even the

610
00:46:54.360 --> 00:46:58.960
stuff that he said himself, you
know, regardless, right, And and

611
00:46:59.280 --> 00:47:01.519
I'm not gonna tell into that too
much, but I mean it bothers me

612
00:47:01.559 --> 00:47:06.639
a little bit with the prayer man
thing because guy says he was not ounce

613
00:47:06.679 --> 00:47:09.280
he was in the building at the
time, but anyway, he said it

614
00:47:09.280 --> 00:47:16.400
publicly. Okay, you know,
all right, uh, which, but

615
00:47:16.880 --> 00:47:21.440
I think in all honest we have
to commit there are ways to deal with

616
00:47:21.480 --> 00:47:23.519
this. I mean, historians have
to deal with this stuff all the time.

617
00:47:24.000 --> 00:47:28.920
Law enforcement has to deal with this
stuff. People say different things at

618
00:47:28.920 --> 00:47:34.159
different times, people lie, You
have confusion in the facts, and you

619
00:47:34.280 --> 00:47:37.360
have to approach it in a practical
manner. It's not that it can't be

620
00:47:37.440 --> 00:47:43.000
done. There's context, there's situation. Leo's will lied at times, Yeah

621
00:47:43.119 --> 00:47:45.519
sure he did. Can we get
a handle on when he lied and when

622
00:47:45.519 --> 00:47:49.400
he didn't lie? Yeah, sure
we can't. So we don't have to

623
00:47:49.440 --> 00:47:54.639
throw it all away. And I
guess that's another thing that strikes me.

624
00:47:54.960 --> 00:48:02.639
This is like real world. This
kind of chaotics situation occurs in most crimes,

625
00:48:02.920 --> 00:48:08.280
many crimes, certainly many violent crimes, and people deal with it.

626
00:48:08.840 --> 00:48:14.840
You know, the system deals with
it. So it's not like there aren't

627
00:48:15.440 --> 00:48:21.239
best practices and approaches and so on
and so forth. Certainly we wouldn't be

628
00:48:21.280 --> 00:48:25.639
in the place that we are now
if this had gone to court and there

629
00:48:25.639 --> 00:48:30.400
had been a defense attorney, and
we would have tossed all of this stuff

630
00:48:30.400 --> 00:48:35.960
out before it ever got past nineteen
sixty four. You know, the fact

631
00:48:36.000 --> 00:48:39.719
that it was all accepted in the
evidence essentially by the Warren Commission was a

632
00:48:39.719 --> 00:48:44.840
problem. Just like we've talked about
it. The same thing happened with MLK

633
00:48:45.159 --> 00:48:52.039
and RK. You know, the
system failed because Oswald had no defense.

634
00:48:52.199 --> 00:48:57.119
But I think it's fascinating that looking
into it a little bit more, the

635
00:48:57.199 --> 00:49:02.960
fellow that Warren that was supposed to
look out for, le Harvy Oswall from

636
00:49:04.000 --> 00:49:12.000
the Justice Department, never did anything
essentially except write a memo that say,

637
00:49:12.159 --> 00:49:15.559
you guys actually shouldn't make a case
that Lee Oswell could shoot well, because

638
00:49:15.559 --> 00:49:20.199
that's going to be hard to support. That's the only thing he contributed.

639
00:49:20.480 --> 00:49:24.039
But I'm sorry to rant that,
but there are practices that allow you to

640
00:49:24.079 --> 00:49:30.360
deal with it at least openly and
transparently and even handily without just making you

641
00:49:30.440 --> 00:49:36.119
know, assertions right so look,
at the end of the day, I

642
00:49:36.119 --> 00:49:38.440
guess without continuing to beat the dead
horse, what we got to do is

643
00:49:38.480 --> 00:49:42.440
say that there is a lot of
work, you know. And I'm not

644
00:49:42.480 --> 00:49:45.039
saying you are, Larry, I
mean I am. I know I am

645
00:49:45.199 --> 00:49:49.119
because I'm frustrated. You know,
at the end of the day, there's

646
00:49:49.159 --> 00:49:52.559
a lot of work still to be
done. And I think there is a

647
00:49:52.599 --> 00:49:57.960
way to do. What happens in
most criminal cases, Like you said,

648
00:49:58.000 --> 00:50:01.000
yeah, the chaos factor happens,
right, People lie, people are covering

649
00:50:01.039 --> 00:50:06.440
things up, people deny stuff at
first until they're caught, etc. But

650
00:50:06.559 --> 00:50:09.280
see, nobody ever got caught up
in their bs at the time, and

651
00:50:09.480 --> 00:50:14.320
we didn't go through that process at
the time. So what you have is

652
00:50:14.480 --> 00:50:22.119
instead of this contracting universe of possibilities
and this contracting universe of evidence that normally

653
00:50:22.400 --> 00:50:27.880
occurs in a murder case, you
don't have that here because it never got

654
00:50:27.920 --> 00:50:31.400
to that point that would have condensed
it. It never got to that point

655
00:50:31.440 --> 00:50:35.599
in the system where somebody had to
challenge this stuff, where you actually had

656
00:50:35.639 --> 00:50:39.599
to have a standard by which you
entered these things into evidence right in a

657
00:50:39.679 --> 00:50:43.559
court. And that's one way of
doing it. There's more than one way.

658
00:50:44.400 --> 00:50:46.960
But I mean one standard one could
use is what could you actually enter

659
00:50:47.039 --> 00:50:52.000
into evidence in a court, right? And what would be stronger evidence,

660
00:50:52.000 --> 00:50:57.519
What would be more persuasive evidence,
what would weigh a great deal more,

661
00:50:57.960 --> 00:51:04.440
what could be corroborated direct, what
could be maybe possibly true but not corroborated,

662
00:51:05.559 --> 00:51:07.360
et cetera, et cetera. And
what might have changed had there been

663
00:51:07.400 --> 00:51:12.880
pressures on people if there was not
a need to testify, you know,

664
00:51:13.239 --> 00:51:15.960
with the Warren Commission, but it
needed to testify in a courtroom, it

665
00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:20.920
would have been a different circumstance.
So we don't end up with the contracting

666
00:51:21.519 --> 00:51:25.880
universe of explanations and evidence. We
end up with an expanding one. And

667
00:51:27.000 --> 00:51:31.400
unfortunately it has continued to expand now
for more than half a century. You

668
00:51:31.440 --> 00:51:37.599
know, look, I'll give the
first few years to the people needing to

669
00:51:37.639 --> 00:51:40.360
take time to do the work in
the research right, and say, let's

670
00:51:40.360 --> 00:51:45.159
just give the first decade away to
the Warrant Commission and just the early critics.

671
00:51:45.239 --> 00:51:50.639
After that, the universe continues to
expand because people started to dig into

672
00:51:50.679 --> 00:51:55.639
things more and dig in on their
positions more, and therefore the universe really

673
00:51:55.639 --> 00:52:00.559
started to expand after that first decade. Right, So this is what we've

674
00:52:00.559 --> 00:52:06.519
dealt with for now a half a
century, and how does it get better?

675
00:52:06.559 --> 00:52:07.480
Well, there's still a lot of
work to be done. I think

676
00:52:07.519 --> 00:52:12.159
there is a responsible way to handle
this, but I just I don't know

677
00:52:12.159 --> 00:52:16.079
how to come up with a consensus
on it. How do you convince now

678
00:52:16.159 --> 00:52:20.320
this whole new group of people,
because a bunch of people have written to

679
00:52:20.320 --> 00:52:22.840
me about this Rob Reiner thing,
like, oh, this is so great.

680
00:52:22.679 --> 00:52:27.440
They're thrilled because it is a recognizable
name. It is somebody with a

681
00:52:27.519 --> 00:52:34.360
large platform who is legitimately advocating for
something other than the Warren commissioned solution.

682
00:52:35.679 --> 00:52:38.079
But on the other hand, did
he do us any favors? You know?

683
00:52:38.440 --> 00:52:43.440
Like I get the Oliver Stone thing, and people complain about that still,

684
00:52:43.440 --> 00:52:45.199
and oh Stone entered a whole bunch
of things into his movie that really

685
00:52:45.199 --> 00:52:47.480
don't make sense if you put them
together. Was it the mob? Was

686
00:52:47.519 --> 00:52:52.000
it? This was that? But
Oliver Stone was making a movie. He

687
00:52:52.119 --> 00:52:55.239
wasn't telling you that that was the
absolute facts. Even he said it was

688
00:52:55.239 --> 00:53:00.440
a counter myth, and a counter
myth could be this way, yes,

689
00:53:00.280 --> 00:53:05.719
But these podcasts where you're telling people
you have solutions. These podcasts where you're

690
00:53:05.719 --> 00:53:10.159
telling people you have actual information is
different than that Hollywood movie, that work

691
00:53:10.320 --> 00:53:15.800
of historical fiction that Stone used and
utilized in order to get a result,

692
00:53:15.800 --> 00:53:19.920
which got us a lot more documentation, got us a lot more research,

693
00:53:19.960 --> 00:53:22.599
got us a lot more of a
lot of things. But I don't know

694
00:53:22.679 --> 00:53:25.440
if we're going to be able to
do ourselves any favors moving forward. I

695
00:53:25.440 --> 00:53:30.920
mean, is there a way to
start making the universe contract as opposed to

696
00:53:30.960 --> 00:53:32.840
expanding? I mean, do you
have any ideas about that? And I'll

697
00:53:32.880 --> 00:53:37.239
close this discussion with you on that
is, do you have any ideas about

698
00:53:37.280 --> 00:53:43.039
going forward? What can we do? And I think perhaps the positive spin

699
00:53:43.480 --> 00:53:49.679
is that you can get all is
that more history books would be written,

700
00:53:49.760 --> 00:53:55.039
or more you know, more would
be written where Oswald is simply characterized as

701
00:53:55.079 --> 00:54:02.320
the suspected assassin, or there's some
comment about it being in dispute, you

702
00:54:02.360 --> 00:54:07.039
know, not asserting it as absolute
one hundred fact as the way the Warren

703
00:54:07.039 --> 00:54:10.360
Commission did and as the way that
the history books were for a time.

704
00:54:12.440 --> 00:54:15.880
Maybe we'll get the point where we
can claim that much as a victory.

705
00:54:16.280 --> 00:54:22.119
I think the other part of what
can happen is it does have to age

706
00:54:22.159 --> 00:54:27.599
to the point where there are history
books written on it. I will say,

707
00:54:28.079 --> 00:54:34.199
there are history books being written now
on the Korean War, or on

708
00:54:34.440 --> 00:54:39.639
aspects of World War two, or
the Lincoln assassination, for heaven's sakes,

709
00:54:40.000 --> 00:54:45.559
that are actually much more factual and
much more accurate than anything that was written

710
00:54:45.559 --> 00:54:50.719
in the years following the incident.
You know, as an example, right

711
00:54:50.760 --> 00:54:53.159
now, if you were a good
historian, you could not write about the

712
00:54:53.239 --> 00:55:02.119
Vietnam War without writing to the extent
that the Russians actually had troops inside Vietnam.

713
00:55:02.280 --> 00:55:07.920
The same thing goes for Korea.
That would have been verboten in the

714
00:55:07.960 --> 00:55:13.760
first years after those wars. So
maybe the point is that we can generate

715
00:55:13.920 --> 00:55:20.039
enough hard data so that another,
you know, one hundred years later historians

716
00:55:20.079 --> 00:55:25.280
can treat it from a distance and
treat it far more objectively than we could

717
00:55:25.360 --> 00:55:29.679
up to this point in time.
I think we just we have to generate

718
00:55:29.719 --> 00:55:34.559
the data. We have to put
it out in some format where a historian

719
00:55:34.599 --> 00:55:37.960
would trust it, you know,
where they can see that it's cited and

720
00:55:38.039 --> 00:55:44.639
sourced and we just didn't make it
up, you know. So that's a

721
00:55:44.679 --> 00:55:49.719
problem with books these days, even
with the way that publishers do or doing

722
00:55:49.760 --> 00:55:55.400
books where where they're consolidating sources page
by page and you can't tell where any

723
00:55:55.440 --> 00:56:01.199
particular commentary came from as far as
the source, I don't know. I

724
00:56:01.239 --> 00:56:07.159
guess the answer to me is it's
almost as if you need more history students

725
00:56:07.679 --> 00:56:16.239
writing real history papers on the assassination. You need more, You need less

726
00:56:16.400 --> 00:56:22.320
entertainment and more history. And that
maybe is just my personal book, but

727
00:56:22.679 --> 00:56:28.119
you can't. You can't overwhelm the
entertainment. We can't overwhelm right, He'll

728
00:56:28.159 --> 00:56:32.159
create a general impression. All we
can do is collect and put together stuff

729
00:56:32.559 --> 00:56:37.280
that a historian may find useful.
When when it gets to the point where

730
00:56:37.320 --> 00:56:42.559
you can tell the real story,
we're closer than we were forty years ago,

731
00:56:43.320 --> 00:56:50.519
thirty years ago, you know,
is the challenge somewhat of a taboo.

732
00:56:51.480 --> 00:56:55.119
Quite frankly, it's still sort of
a taboo subject for real historians,

733
00:56:55.159 --> 00:57:00.280
possibly because what we just talked about. They'll look at what they say see

734
00:57:00.280 --> 00:57:01.800
on you know, they're human too, they'll look at what they see on

735
00:57:01.840 --> 00:57:07.079
TV and they'll go, oh,
jeez, I can't you know, I

736
00:57:07.119 --> 00:57:12.480
can't do a paper on that kind
of stuff right right, Well, you

737
00:57:12.519 --> 00:57:15.360
know, and the good thing is, I guess again we got to take

738
00:57:15.360 --> 00:57:20.719
the positive spin is that at least
the idea that this can be challenged is

739
00:57:21.239 --> 00:57:24.800
viewed as legitimate. Now, what
it is that is used to challenge the

740
00:57:24.880 --> 00:57:30.519
official story is yet another question.
And like you said, I guess it'll

741
00:57:30.519 --> 00:57:34.320
just have to be up to the
data and eventually it'll all shake out,

742
00:57:34.400 --> 00:57:37.519
and we'll hope that it shakes out
to a point where, you know,

743
00:57:37.400 --> 00:57:44.159
there is a most likely story that
could be told that there's another positive point

744
00:57:44.760 --> 00:57:47.559
that I just don't want to overstep. But one of the things that the

745
00:57:47.599 --> 00:57:52.480
first second generation, when they wrote
something right, there was no way for

746
00:57:52.519 --> 00:57:58.480
the reader to verify it. It's
totally critical now the body of information that

747
00:57:58.599 --> 00:58:04.320
is build built on the Marial Mary
Farrell Foundation, the Black Vault, getting

748
00:58:04.400 --> 00:58:08.480
all of this actual. That's why
we can't throw away the documents. If

749
00:58:08.519 --> 00:58:13.800
you say I'm throwing away all the
documents and all the witness testimony, the

750
00:58:13.880 --> 00:58:16.639
Storian fifty years from now will say, I'll go write about something else.

751
00:58:17.079 --> 00:58:21.400
You know, if you guys say
this is all fake. But the good

752
00:58:21.440 --> 00:58:25.679
news is we've collected that a lot
of people have spent tons of work collecting

753
00:58:25.719 --> 00:58:30.920
that body of information, so you
can write, someone could write a good

754
00:58:30.000 --> 00:58:36.719
historical paper on how the Warren Commission
screwed up, you know, and quote

755
00:58:36.800 --> 00:58:40.559
real sources and real documents. So
I don't want to be too depressed because

756
00:58:40.559 --> 00:58:50.519
we've done that much to enable real
histories exactly, exactly. All right,

757
00:58:50.599 --> 00:58:53.719
Well, Larry Hancock, I just
want to thank you for walking through this

758
00:58:53.760 --> 00:58:59.800
with me again. Go to larrydoshncock
dot com. I recommend all of Larry's

759
00:58:59.840 --> 00:59:05.199
right, But you know, this
is a necessary thing, and this conversation

760
00:59:05.320 --> 00:59:08.199
is going to have to be continued
because look, it's not just Rob Reiner,

761
00:59:08.239 --> 00:59:12.000
and it's not just what will be
put out, you know by people

762
00:59:12.000 --> 00:59:15.039
that have major reach and all this. At this point in time, I

763
00:59:15.079 --> 00:59:21.679
think there is still this continuing need
to police this, to begin to come

764
00:59:21.800 --> 00:59:30.039
up with a reliable contradiction to the
official story that is not based on wild

765
00:59:30.079 --> 00:59:34.000
speculation and grab bags some things thrown
together. I mean, that's really what

766
00:59:34.000 --> 00:59:37.880
it comes down to. We've got
to eliminate that stuff. We've got to

767
00:59:37.880 --> 00:59:43.119
eliminate it from legitimate you know consideration. Is the general public going to consider

768
00:59:43.159 --> 00:59:45.440
many different things, I guess.
So we don't have a choice about that,

769
00:59:45.679 --> 00:59:50.239
but we do have a choice about
what it is we choose to present

770
00:59:50.440 --> 00:59:53.559
and what it is we choose to
lend credence to as we go forward.

771
00:59:54.400 --> 00:59:59.840
So that's the way I'll leave it
with you guys for tonight. And remember

772
01:00:00.000 --> 01:00:04.920
I'm merely o'helly, and all of
you are indeed the effect. Remember go

773
01:00:04.920 --> 01:00:07.039
to Larry dash Hancock dot com.
And I'll also give you the link to

774
01:00:07.199 --> 01:00:13.239
his blog in the show notes.
And uh, we'll talk to Larry in

775
01:00:13.239 --> 01:00:35.199
two weeks. Take care of everybody. Wallstreet window dot dot, gold,

776
01:00:36.239 --> 01:00:44.000
silver, the stock market, Wall
Street window dot dot. Perhaps you're invested

777
01:00:44.079 --> 01:00:47.199
deeply, perhaps you're not in deep
enough. Maybe you're thinking about getting started.

778
01:00:47.679 --> 01:00:52.159
Wall Street windows, don com doos
do com. Michael Swanson, the

779
01:00:52.199 --> 01:00:58.320
brilliant author of the War State,
understood these trends professionally for many years,

780
01:00:58.360 --> 01:01:06.920
and now he gives you the benefit
of his knowledge. Dot go there,

781
01:01:07.079 --> 01:01:10.920
now go there, now go there, now go ahead. Call it about

782
01:01:10.920 --> 01:01:14.280
the DAFA assassination. Right, well, what do you want to know?

783
01:01:14.360 --> 01:01:19.320
Tony Baker's wild claim Oswald girlfriends he
knew? Ruby and Barry answer, weapons

784
01:01:19.360 --> 01:01:22.199
really, I imagine I could claim
I have four wheels. It doesn't make

785
01:01:22.199 --> 01:01:25.800
me a wagon, but okayal bili
and trying to prevent the murder of John

786
01:01:25.840 --> 01:01:30.119
Kennedy come on now has a real
effort on the day of hay assassination.

787
01:01:30.360 --> 01:01:36.719
Go to Amazon dot com enter Judith
Baker in her own words. You'll get

788
01:01:36.760 --> 01:01:40.320
the results for a digital copy of
a book where Walt Brown utilizes her own

789
01:01:40.360 --> 01:01:45.840
words and the known evidence in the
case to get at well a different perspective.

790
01:01:45.920 --> 01:01:50.760
Let's say you can get Judith Barry
Baker in her own words from the

791
01:01:50.840 --> 01:01:54.320
author himself, signed if you request
it by contacting doctor Brown at k I

792
01:01:54.440 --> 01:02:00.519
A S JFK at aol dot com. It's a fun book and actually dissects

793
01:02:00.760 --> 01:02:06.599
the many, many fantastic claims Judith
Barry Baker in her own words. Thank

794
01:02:06.679 --> 01:02:08.960
you for all the great information the
news expressed. Like all the schools there

795
01:02:08.960 --> 01:02:12.039
anyone else who happens to get on
the air of jelly dot com. If

796
01:02:12.000 --> 01:02:15.360
you don't necessarily reflect ned views of
Jelly dot com or jock O jelly and

797
01:02:15.440 --> 01:02:17.840
we are not responsible. We're getting
stupidity which might ensued. Do you like

798
01:02:17.960 --> 01:02:22.559
history? Real history? That you
were never taught in schools. Why the

799
01:02:22.639 --> 01:02:29.840
Vietnam War Nuclear Bombs in Nation Building
in Southeast Asia by author Mike Swanson,

800
01:02:29.960 --> 01:02:35.800
with new documentation never seen before that'll
open your eyes to events that led up

801
01:02:35.840 --> 01:02:40.840
to this. Why the Vietnam War
Nuclear Bombs in Nation Building in Southeast Asia

802
01:02:42.039 --> 01:02:47.639
nineteen forty five through nineteen sixty one. Get your copy today at Amazon dot

803
01:02:47.639 --> 01:02:52.599
com. Why the Vietnam War by
author Mike Swanson. The War State by

804
01:02:52.679 --> 01:02:58.800
Michael Swanson explains the great national transformation
that took place and put the Kennedy presidency

805
01:02:58.880 --> 01:03:02.360
in the context of the time times
and reveals never before published information about the

806
01:03:02.400 --> 01:03:07.719
Cuban missile crisis. President Kennedy would
not have been assassinated if he had been

807
01:03:07.760 --> 01:03:12.320
president two hundred years ago. His
assassination took place in the context of the

808
01:03:12.360 --> 01:03:15.440
Cold War and the rise of the
national security state. Before World War II,

809
01:03:15.599 --> 01:03:20.360
the United States was a continental republic. In the decade that followed,

810
01:03:20.400 --> 01:03:24.199
it became an imperial superpower. Generals
such as Curtis LeMay not only wanted to

811
01:03:24.239 --> 01:03:28.760
invade Cuba, but knew that there
were short range missiles on the island.

812
01:03:28.800 --> 01:03:32.320
Aren't with nuclear warheads that they could
not destroy because they were on mobile launchers.

813
01:03:32.440 --> 01:03:37.519
Their invasion could have led to a
Third World War, and they wanted

814
01:03:37.519 --> 01:03:42.239
to go to war anyway. The
War State by Michael Swanson reveals why and

815
01:03:42.280 --> 01:03:45.960
will show you what President Kennedy was
up against. For more information, The

816
01:03:45.119 --> 01:03:50.960
Warstate dot com. Nuclear Holocaust.
You know what uranium is right? I

817
01:03:51.079 --> 01:03:54.519
think called nuclear weapons and other things
like lots of you know what uranium is

818
01:03:54.599 --> 01:04:00.880
right? Bad things things had done
with uranium, including some bad things Nuclear

819
01:04:00.920 --> 01:04:04.280
holocaust. You know what uranium is
right? I have brief Nuclear Holocaust,

820
01:04:04.679 --> 01:04:09.960
Nuclear Holocaust. You know what uranium
is right? They think on nuclear weapons

821
01:04:09.960 --> 01:04:13.320
and other things like blood. Say, you know what uranium is right?

822
01:04:13.599 --> 01:04:18.119
Bad things things are done with uranium, including some bad things Nuclear Holocaust,

823
01:04:18.639 --> 01:04:27.320
Nuclear Holo Holocaust, Nuclear Holocaust,
Nuclear Holocaust, nuclear hollow On the dynamics

824
01:04:27.400 --> 01:04:30.079
of a crop, how do you
move a mab? How do you expect?

825
01:04:30.239 --> 01:04:32.719
How do you make them feel?
Is one? But you? How

826
01:04:33.000 --> 01:04:42.079
joined them? First? Join them? This when you episode remold