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The Supreme Court's conservative daydream of blending
church and state and public education has hit

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a snag in Oklahoma. Picture this
a Catholic run charter school funded by taxpayers.

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The state attorney general is not amused, but some conservatives are playing risky

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poker banking on a new Supreme Court
tilt. Here's the twist. Conservatives,

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in their quest for clarity, might
inadvertently dismantle the ambiguity that made charter schools

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education's cool kids. By targeting the
separation of church and state, they could

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bulldoze the fortress protecting their cherished charter
schools. It's a classic case of be

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careful what you wish for, as
the conservative dream of turning public schools into

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Sunday schools might send their education policies
tumbling down. Aimen to that or maybe

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not. The story is from New
Republic by Adam Latts, and before we

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dive into this, I want to
give a little bit bit of a background

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here. Being the teacher, I
feel obligated to explain what's a charter school.

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Okay, there's a lot of people
have different opinions on what those things

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are. Here is what the National
Charter School Research Center has to say,

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a charter school is a public school
that operates as a school of choice.

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Charter schools commit to obtaining specific educational
objectives in return for a charter to operate

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a school. Charter schools are exempt
from significant state or local regulations related to

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operation and management, but otherwise adhere
to regulations of public schools. For example,

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charter schools cannot charge tuition or be
affiliated with a religious institution. In

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other words, charter schools are publicly
accountable, They rely on families choosing to

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enroll their children, and they must
have a written performance contract with the authorizing

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public chartering agency. Charter schools are
also partially autonomous. They have more flexibility

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in their operations and management of the
school than traditional public schools, and so

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as far as their effectiveness, it's
kind of a mixed bag. In general,

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public charter schools do about as well
as they're what we call brick and

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mortar or standard model schools. Right. We've found that studies have shown that

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online charter schools tend to do worse
than non charter school than a regular public

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online school I guess, and like
in person, urban charter schools have a

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tendency to do better, to do
better, you know, for a variety

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of reasons. So that's what charter
schools are and how they fit in.

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And so what we're talking about is
a school that can try some kind of

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experimental pedagogy and curriculum. Very often, they'll serve underserved populations. Very often

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they'll have specialized programs or maybe to
address particular content issues. They're supposed to

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be like the green Berets of the
education world. Right, there's a problem

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that the standard soldiers are not handling, so let's send in the special ops.

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That's what that's what originally the plan
was. Then, of course we

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had religious creep coming in, so
seeping in every little nook and cranny can

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find, infecting every little piece of
government that it can get its hands on.

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And so it's not surprising that religious
leaders and parents are going to try

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to use this as an inroad,
right. And so the issue that this

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article about is for many years charter
schools have enjoyed this ambiguous you know,

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they have a certain amount of freedom, but they are they being held accountable,

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and so that's the issue that's coming
to the forefront now across what's your

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take on that, Well, that
was a great summary. By the way,

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from a legal perspective, charter schools
are have traditionally been held to be

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public schools. It's basically the conservative's
wet dream like they want to privatize everything.

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They have private companies running prisons,
they want private companies running waste management.

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Anything that the government has traditionally done, they want to privatize. And

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that's what a charter school is.
It's private companies running public schools. I

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found this particular article a little frustrating
to read, and I'll tell you why

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his logic he didn't. He spends
the whole article talking about the history,

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which is great, and I do
agree that this Oklahoma case is supremely important.

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The Freedom from Religion Foundation is all
over it, ACLU is all over

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it. The Attorney General of Oklahoma
thinks that this is going to be unconstitutional.

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It's an open and shut case,
and I agree with them. But

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this article, he spends the ninety
percent of it talking about that, and

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only in the end does he justify
his headline where it's saying, hey,

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this could be the end. And
the way he does that is he says,

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well, either the Supreme Court will
hold that it's a public school,

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in which case we win, or
they'll hold it's a private school, in

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which case we win. And I
didn't see this heads eye wind tails you

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logic, because this court has shown, more than any other court in my

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lifetime, a willingness to bend or
ignore precedent we already have in the law,

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this concept of a quasi public corporation. If you think of phone companies

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and natural gas companies, those sorts
of organizations where the state creates a company

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or a designates a company as special
as handling this natural monopoly, there's no

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reason this court couldn't, out of
thin air create a quasi public school category

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and put these schools in that and
then say, well, they're allowed to

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do religion. Do I think they'll
do that? No, But it's not

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quite as open and shut as this
author said. That said, I think

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that they are going to lose.
I think the courts will not allow this,

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and if they do, I will
eat my hat as long as the

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hat is made of I don't know, gummy bears or something like that.

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Although my favorite part of this article
was when he noted two gallop poles.

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They they asked people American citizens how
they would improve public schools, and in

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one poll it was two percent and
another pole three percent said the government should

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stop running public pools. That's how
a public schools, that's how unpopular that

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idea is. Public schools are insanely
popular in the United States. So if

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the court messes with it, they're
messing with a hornet's nest, very similar

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to how the GOP creating this court
to overturn Roe v. Wade opened a

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hornet's nest and got into a bunch
of knew you were going there. Well,

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why don't you take it from there? Kelly? See now I got

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to follow you again. You know
what My favorite quote from the article was

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the favorable judicial climate has encouraged them
to shout so much that they've forgotten how

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well mumbling have served their interests.
And that sums up Yeah, I know,

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that was great, And that sums
up the strategy that the right has

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been using for decades. Right,
they spent all this time just changing things

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so slowly that there wasn't a lot
of opposition to the things that they wanted

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and what they were doing just slowly, chip chip chip chip, chippening away

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at the free society we live in, and it worked. It totally worked,

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and now it seems that they think
that their new found majority in the

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skotis in local politics especially and seemingly
in the US House. They found this

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new very loud voice and they're openly
publicly and loudly shouting for this drastic agenda

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that they want past. And it's
not really playing well. But let's get

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back to charter schools. It makes
it price sound of the panel. But

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I think there's a role for charter
schools. In the early eighties, I

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volunteered to teach journalism at a charter
school for a semester. I had a

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great time doing it, loved it. A couple of decades later, my

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ex wife taught English at a charter
school. Both school it was a different

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school, but both schools served the
same purpose. They were there for kids

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who had dropped out or had been
kicked out of every normal high school in

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the area, and this was their
last chance to get a diploma. And

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it was like two different types of
kids there. There were the ones that

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were sixteen and under that were really
mostly problem students and didn't really want to

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be there. But you had these
really wonderful kids that were above sixteen didn't

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have to go to school anymore,
didn't fit into a regular classroom, and

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they were really doing well in this
environment. I honestly wish there had been

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something like that for me when I
was in high school. So I really

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believe that there was a place for
these schools, and I don't want to

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see him go away. But this, as as Scott mentioned, this religious

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creep is really really hurting them and
I don't see any good coming of it

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in the future. So I think
we really have to be careful about how

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we let the religion take over the
schools and try to keep them secular.

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Infidel, do you have anything you
want to add to that? First and

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foremost have to say, I'm glad
I'm not following cross Examiner, because right

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you know, at the end of
the day, though, wait, was

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that kind of slam against Kelly that
there Infidel slams me all the time?

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You should see it. I have
to say that we really will find out

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if we have a case of how
much does a yacht vacations paying for your

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your your adopted or whatever's education you
know, and all the things we don't

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know what does that buy? Because
at the end of the day, it

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could be a matter. It doesn't
have to be either are And I thought

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that was one of the most alarming
things myself, is because the reality is

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it can be. Yes, it's
a paid public charter school that well technically

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not public. It's paid for and
it's teaching religion. And guess what we're

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okay with it. We're the Supreme
Court. Oh well, now is it

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that easy? Well, we used
to think that there's a concept the rule

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of law. But the truth is
is that I don't know with this group,

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I really don't know how far they're
willing to go. Kelly, you

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mentioned Mike Johnson or the House.
Mike Johnson forget Project twenty twenty five.

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He leans towards a constitutional convention.
So if you talk about something like a

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constitutional convention, you're talking about school
charter schools. We wouldn't be talking about

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that issue obviously. Having said that, who knows what the Supreme Court does?

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And I guess we'll see once again, though, the good thing is

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is that we know there's going to
be an uproar if they go that far.

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Because one of you mentioned that two
or three percent was the minute percentage

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to say get rid of public schools
and something of that nature would be effectively

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the end of public schools. So
if they go that far, if they

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want to make education another losing bet
for them, I hope not, because

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kids' educations aren't pawns. But we'll
see, we'll see where they go with

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this, and hopefully it's the right
direction. And with that in mind,

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the right direction would be to talk
to Scott boom Boy. That was a

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nice segue, that was very smooth, and I just totally ruined it by

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talking about it. But hey,
that's what happens. That's what happens here

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in the nonprofits, right. But
across you brought up an interesting point and

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I was totally taken in by this
author the way that he finished the article.

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So he presented with these two prongs. I'll flesh them out a little

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bit a little bit more here.
The two prongs were basically, you have

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to shit or get off the pot. Right. You have to decide are

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these charter schools public schools? And
of course the answer is yes, they

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are, they are public schools.
I also, by the way, side,

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note here I worked at a public
at a church school as well.

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My experience there was not enjoyable and
I left as soon as I could having

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said that. But yeah, so
we need to decide are they are they

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public schools? And if so,
then they need to follow the rules,

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right, Or if they're not public
schools, then where why are we giving

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them? Why are we giving them
the money? Right? And so you

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know, I was totally I was
totally fished in by that, and I

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was like, yeah, yeah,
all right, yeah, let's see that.

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Bring it on. And but yeah, you're totally right. I mean,

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it's this is not you know,
for for an ideology that's so much

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into black and white, the the
you know, the conservative side of the

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scale. Here Shirt enjoys being in
the gray area and this particular subject,

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and you know, there's no reason
that they can't hammer out uh you know,

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like you said, like a quasi
public kind of kind of entity here.

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They can have it both. I
mean, I would feel less comfortable

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if somebody like Betsy de Vos was
back in the you know, in the

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driver's seat there, you know these
days. And this is just my opinion,

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but I I feel a lot more
safe on my uh the fact that

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I like public schools, that I'm
in favor of public schools. I think

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that that institution is has been a
tool for uh uh, for giving people

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opportunities to change their lives. And
I think that's the one of the main

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goals of the whole system. And
I think that's you know, we need

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to keep that sacred. And I
think that people like that, and and

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so it's hard to say. It's
hard to say what will will happen.

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You know, we've seen very popular
things taken down in the Supreme Court with

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Roe v. Wade, right,
And so I'm now I'm nervous about this.

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Now, now you got me nervous, cross, Well, I say,

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tell me something that makes me feel
better. Well, I will.

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I will emphasize what I said.
There's no way that they do that,

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but they could. And what I
said is, I'll eat my hat if

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they if they don't find this blatantly
unconstitutional. So I the point of me

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saying quasi public school would be a
brand new category they could come up with,

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is that's the type of thing that
the Court might do, were it

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to try to accommodate something like this. But say what you want about the

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people on the Supreme Court, Okay, the Renquists and the Scalias and the

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Thomases and the Amy Komy. Barretts
are all very intelligent people, and even

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if you are going to attribute some
sort of malicious intent to their motives,

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they know what would happen if they
let this go through all of a sudden,

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States would run to their corners.
You'd have charter schools. We'd have

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a Hindu school, we have an
Atheist school, we have a Jewish school,

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we have an Islamic school, we
have a Catholic school, we have

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a Protestant school. Like it would
turn into exactly what the founders did not

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want to happen. And that's not
good for them either. They know that

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that's not good. It's much easier
for them to say, in a very

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short opinion, no, you can't
do this. This is a public school.

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See all these older cases. If
you want to teach religion, don't

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take state money. I think that's
where they're going to go. I think

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that we do need to watch it
carefully. Nothing's guaranteed, but this would

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be ay if they let this happen, If they come up with some sort

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of middle ground, or if they
say, yeah you can, you can

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take the money in stay a public
so you can teach religion. To stay

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a public school. It would be
more earth shattering than anything in my life.

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Even overturning Row Row, to be
honest, was an edge sort of

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case when they decided it. This
is fundamental to our First Amendment jurisprudence,

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and the court throughout history has protected
the First Amendment more than any other amendment

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in the Constitution. So what do
you think, Kelly, Have I put

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anybody at ease with that? Yeah, you'd put me more at ease.

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I totally, seriously, I do
so love the idea that by pushing this

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issue they may in fact kill it. I think that's a great idea.

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I realized that it's not a cut
and dry situation like the article puts it,

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But I mean that possibility is there. And one of the things that

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the article only mentions the legal reasons
why this whole idea could die. And

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I mean, let's face it,
Catholic charter schools, Cotton. They haven't

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gotten a lot of good pres lately. Thank God, see what they did

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there. The far right evangelical agenda, while doing alright in some small local

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areas, in general, is not
playing well with the mets with the American

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public. We saw that in the
last election cycle and it could be that

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this type of religious indoctrination of the
youth is on the way out as each

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successive generation gets less and less religious
and more and more liberal. So we

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may have a bright future or a
bright light in the future on this subject,

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and it might not even involve the
legality of the subject. So I

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mean that's always something to think about
too. Infinitel you have anything you'd like

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to add. I definitely think that
rather than argue the law with cross examiner

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here, I'll just have to pound
the table because really, at the end

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of the day, I do think
that it would be a huge, huge

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stretch. I mean, Roe has
decided in our lifetime public education has been

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something that people have felt about the
separation of church of state, and that

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development far way longer than Roe versus
Wade. So I can't anticipate them doing

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that. My biggest concern, of
course, is with them. I just

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have complete lack of confidence in them
making the right choice. So what they

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do. I do think they're going
to reach with some type of compromise,

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with some sort Now it'll probably be
a compromise and name only you know,

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it'll be a you know, we
can declare victory. We got something,

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but we really didn't, so we'll
see. But at the end of the

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day, changes has been coming to
public education for quite a while, but

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that's something we're seeing a pushback on
from the more extreme sources. So as

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long as this doesn't go the way
we as long as it more accurately,

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as long as it goes the way
we hope it goes, then we could

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keep our focus back on the real
threat to education and put the Supreme Court

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to bet on this issue for a
little while. Scott, you had a

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few last words. I just wanted
to say, I'm still nervous. I'm

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still nervous here. You know,
if you had, if if you had

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told me this five years ago,
I might have been thinking, Okay,

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they're not going to mess with this
as an honored, haloed institution in this

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nation. I don't know. I
don't know if I'm if I'm all that

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convinced. I think, you know, in recent years, we've seen that

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the respect for hallowed institutions in this
country is taking a back seat. And

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so I think I'm gonna officially lock
myself in as as cautiously optimistic, which

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is kind of like my home there
so I'll be cautiously optimistic and that's all

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I have to say. Well,
that's something to say. So you know,

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what's something I'd like to say before
we cut off here is that you

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can get the nonprofits in the other
ACA shows in podcast form at tiny dot

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00:17:52.039 --> 00:17:56.799
c c slash a am Podcasts