1
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Oh, Jennifer, this book is
coming out right at the perfect time.

2
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My god. One of the biggest
movies in the theaters right now is Mean

3
00:00:05,719 --> 00:00:10,880
Girls, and people need to know
this story. That's right, that's right.

4
00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:15,320
It's very exciting. Was it timed
out like this on purpose? Or

5
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is this just oh boy, wow, look what's happening. I so want

6
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to lie to you and say it
was all part of a master plan,

7
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but it was a coincidence. It's
very strange though. It's one of those

8
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things where you know, because I've
seen both of them, I've experienced both

9
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both different versions of it in the
way that I think the musical side of

10
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it gives it even a deeper story
into what's going on within our own chapters

11
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because we all like to sing.
Let me sing in Mean Girls. Absolutely,

12
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And I mean I'm a musical theater
nerd too, and I always feel

13
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like the great thing about musicals is
they can like let you into a character's

14
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soul, right, they can sing
something they would never necessarily say, What

15
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was it that drew you to this
book? Because it's almost like one of

16
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those you know, the wizard behind
the curtain and you're taking us with you

17
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to take a sneak peek. That's
right. I'm always looking for things,

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you know, things pop cultural phenomena. Let's say that, first of all,

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resonate. And obviously it's twenty years
and this has been you know,

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we're still talking about it. So
I'm always interested in why, why there's

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something that lasts and other things,
don't you know, And also just kind

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of having a bigger effect than just
oh we like this movie. It's that,

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you know, you it really infects
our everyday lives. So we're still

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quoting this movie. There are characters
in this movie who inspired people, changed

25
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people's lives the way that it kind
of you know, invaded the internet at

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a key moment. We still use
the memes every day. We use it

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when we talk about politics, we
use it when we talk about our friendships.

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And so I think that's the kind
of stuff that I'm always looking for.

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When I'm looking for something to write
about. There has to be something

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to say for three hundred pages.
There has to be a story to tell,

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and so this, you know,
kind of lived up to that.

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Do you think the relatability is because
Tina Fey had her ear on the ground

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and she knew the vibration of what
the generation was doing. I do,

34
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I do think so, which is
you know, she it's this happens a

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lot, right with any kind of
movie like this, Like obviously she was

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older than the people in the movie. She was around thirty, but I

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think, you know, it also
is so timeless that she related to the

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material herself. You know, she
remembered her teenage years and being awkward and

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in her case, she's talked about
you know, kind of like making jokes

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as a defense mechanism in her case, and you know, that's just she

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felt like there hadn't been a teen
movie that did that, and she was

42
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right, and it was a huge
gap that there was to fill, and

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she did it in this way that
is so fun and funny. You know,

44
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that's the part. It's like a
kind of serious subject if you think

45
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about it, girls bullying each other, but it's she made it fun and

46
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funny and gave us an uplifting message
in the end. I'll tell you the

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thing that I've always loved about it
is that she didn't have to go the

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dirty route like Porkis did and movies
like that. You know, those were

49
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teen movies too, and even Fast
Times at Reachmond High. They still went

50
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that route. Tina didn't have to
do that, and look she's still just

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as strong today, exactly exactly.
They actually really deliberately wanted this movie to

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be fourteen girls. This is a
huge it's like a huge plot point in

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my book. But their PG thirteen
rating was like, this is what we

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have to have because young girls need
to be able to go see this.

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And so they did so much work. She actually had a slightly dirtier original

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script and then they cleaned it up, and then they actually had to clean

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it up one more time in post
production and change some lines that were key

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to get that PG thirteen rating.
This was like, you know, it

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just felt like life or death to
them to have that rating. And I

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think in the end, like it's
still incredibly funny. Like you said,

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I kind of like that this isn't
about sexy, dirty stuff. It's just

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this like clean, you know,
clear story that still has incredibly funny jokes.

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I think the jokes are hilarious,
So we didn't lose anything. You're

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gonna think I'm a freak, but
I think this new version of Me and

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Girls is the grease of this generation. It's really it's like, I mean,

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it does kind of combine the original
I think with the stage musical and

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so that it kind of like brings
it all together and it's gotten new stuff,

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right. They updated some jokes.
And by the way, I was

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a huge Grease fan the books like
foundational for me, so I love that.

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You know, one of the things
that listeners need to understand is that,

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I mean, I realized this is
a book from you sharing the story,

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but you physically sat down with the
directors, the crew members and everybody

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else that was involved. You're really
giving us a good inside peek here.

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Yeah. I was especially pleased to
talk to the director, Mark Waters.

75
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He did such a wonderful job and
maybe you know, doesn't always get recognized

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because people are so focused on Tina
Fey, but it's so tightly directed and

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tightly edited. And he also was
so good with the kids. I mean,

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they were young adults mostly through old
teenagers, young twenties, but still

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that's pretty young for a whole cast
for the most you know, except for

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the teachers and parents. He was
he had this huge cast of very young

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people and everyone talked to me about
how good he was with them. He

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allowed them to have fun and play
and improvise, and he would just have

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them do like a million takes and
keep them going and keep their energy up.

84
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He was in every single audition,
even for all of those high schoolers

85
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you see kind of in the background
or who had one line. He was

86
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in every single audition to pick these
kids. Often was picking kids with almost

87
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no experience because he just liked their
vibe and wanted to work with them.

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And I loved being able to kind
of talk to him about this and also

89
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just kind of give him credit.
You talk about those people in the background.

90
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That's one of my weaknesses, or
it could be a strength when it

91
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comes to movie watching. I love
watching the background because I think there's Easter

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eggs in everything there is. And
this must have been I would think one

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of your favorites for that, because
they really created a high school. You

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know, they went through the trouble
like Mark Waters again, he named every

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character. He would talk to each
person about their character and be like you

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would be into this and this,
and you'd want to be friends with her,

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but she, you know, like
he had a whole idea for every

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one of these characters, and they
all have their own clicks. Each of

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each click has their own like little
Regieta George in it in the background.

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And they were played all by Toronto
Canadian actors because it was in Toronto,

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and I think it helped a lot
because they all knew each other, or

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that all, but a lot of
them knew each other from other auditions and

103
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just being around, and so it
really gave this feel of like an actualized

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goal that was surrounding the Mean Girls, which was important because Regina needs like

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a kingdom to rule over right,
you have that feeling, and a lot

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of them got some of those amazing
one liners that remain really famous to this

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day, both because we like to
quote them and because we like to meme

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them. Yeah. Yeah, the
book we're talking about is called so Fetch

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The Making of Mean Girls. Here's
how big this movie is still in our

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life. I don't know if you
caught the Real Housewives of Utah, but

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at the end, did you see
that they brought out a burn book.

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Yes, it's so crazy. It's
really everywhere. I had a Google alert

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on Mean Girls for this book,
and it's fascinating to see how all the

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places that this phrase shows up,
I mean, every realm of life,

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politics, definitely. Reality TV is
just some girls time. It's just it's

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incredible to see. Wow. So
do you think that people have burn Books?

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I mean, because I mean,
my god, I mean, just

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to watch it come back to life
in the new movie, you know,

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you still have that emotion you're going, oh my god. Oh yeah.

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And you know, I love how
the burn Book still looks the same.

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It's like it is so it just
what they just nailed it with the way

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it looked in the original, and
it's like we cannot I mean, we

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built my book cover on that,
Like it is just this iconic look that

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we all go like, oh yeah, I know exactly what that is.

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I never had a burn Book,
I you know, I hope people don't

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really have them to this day.
I still have a photo album that I

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had when I was a teenager,
and so when I saw the burn Book

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and I saw the way they put
the photos and stuff in there, I

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was like, my god, that
is almost like my my book of photography

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as a kid. I mean,
from when I was a hockey player to

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the band and all that kind of
stuff and a time I'll never get back,

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but it's still fun to look at. I did have that I had

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a lot of photo albums like that
that I lovingly like, put the foot

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right, like all that stuff.
So I did I did I do really

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to that part? Did you keep
anything in there? Because I have a

136
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dollar bill in there that was signed
by Leife Garrett to this day, I

137
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hold on to that thing. That
is amazing. I definitely had some like

138
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I had a lot of stuff that
was like, oh, this card that

139
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this boy gave me or whatever,
right like that kind of thing. When

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did you know that you were going
to be a writer? And I realized

141
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that. You know, even when
I talk with authors, I still call

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them writers only because writing, to
me is so deep into the soul.

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You are a writer and that that
is an author. That's right. And

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I usually I think I say writer
only because I do a multiple things,

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right, and some of them marketing, some of them are writing a book.

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I mean always, but definitely.
By the time I was about eight

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or so, I was I had
like an electric typewriter, an old electric

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typewriter my mom gave me, and
I would just sit there and I wrote

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these little short stories. And then
I started writing plays that I would make

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my friends do in the garage with
me and it kind of just went from

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00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:09,080
there. I you know, and
I was interested in all different kinds of

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writing. I wanted to be even
a freelance writer. Specifically, since I

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was quite young, I would take
out books from the library on like how

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to be a writer, yeah,
and just learn the business and definitely always

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I loved the library, so I
really dreamed of being an author own that

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freelance writer. What I love about
that is the fact that it's like,

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because people go, you need you
need to go take some lessons and get

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some better technique. I don't want
to write like them. I want to

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write like me. Yeah. Absolutely. I think practice is the big Practice

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in writing is always what I say. I do teach writing classes, but

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I feel like, in the end, like I'm not sure that they're that

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useful. Maybe getting feedback is the
other part of that. But if you

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just write and practice a lot,
have other people read it and you read,

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I think that's all you really need. All right, miss writing teacher,

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I've got a question for you.
Do you think that sometimes we use

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too many run on sentences and sentences
are too long, because if we were

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to write the way we speak,
there'd be a lot more periods in commas.

168
00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:05,159
That is very true. But I
you know, I one of the

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big idols of my life was the
author Tom Wolfe h And he was the

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king of the long sentence among and
the crazy situation, among other things.

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And I thought he was he was
such a genius at doing kind of what

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you're talking about, which is like
he could mimic the way his thoughts came

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out or the way he spoke.
But also like, this is a you

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have to know the rules to break
the rules thing, right, You have

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to know the way to do it, and then you have to find the

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way, the kind of right way
to express the things the way you want

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to express them. And we all
know that's a lot harder than it seems

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like it should be, because otherwise
everyone would do it all the time.

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Every editor has one spot in a
book that they go, man, I

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00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:54,399
like where you were going, but
it didn't reach me. We're going to

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00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:56,559
have to remove it. Did you
have one of those in this book?

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We definitely cut a lot of stuff. We did, h I have.

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00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:05,519
I had good stuff on the cutting
room floor, for sure. I just

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00:12:05,759 --> 00:12:09,039
you know, I love it.
It's hard because especially if you do interviews

185
00:12:09,039 --> 00:12:13,279
and stuff like that, you just
get attached. You kind of want to

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00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,559
put Like if somebody bothered to talk
to you, you kind of want to

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00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:20,679
put it in. So I think
maybe I just had too much to work

188
00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:24,320
with, which is great. But
yeah, we definitely had a few things

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00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:28,559
where it was just like, let's
keep moving forward instead of going this side

190
00:12:28,639 --> 00:12:33,240
journey. Yeah, but there was
just it's like, I guess that's a

191
00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:35,600
good thing. There's too much good
stuff these interviews you're talking about. We

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00:12:35,639 --> 00:12:39,679
are all communications specialists these days.
Are they going to are they going to

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00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:43,759
sit on a hard drive in your
computer forever? Or are you going to

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00:12:43,799 --> 00:12:46,960
share those real conversations with the rest
of us. I was I've been working

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00:12:48,039 --> 00:12:50,159
on trying to figure out. I
actually had a list of some of the

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00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:52,799
stuff that I that I cut from
the book that I really liked that I

197
00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:54,440
was like, oh, I got
to figure out because I've been doing like

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00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:56,600
TikTok, I'm like, should I
do it there? I'm not sure where

199
00:12:56,600 --> 00:13:00,120
I going to do it yet,
but we'll figure out something to do with

200
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my bonus material. What did you
learn from this from this particular journey?

201
00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:11,399
Oh, that's such a nice question. I mean I think that I just

202
00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:18,600
really came away with an even better
appreciation of this movie and of it's the

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way that it took its audience seriously
even while being very very funny, right,

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I think being very very funny.
That was my takeaway, Being very

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very funny as a way of taking
it on it seriously. It gave this

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audience this incredibly quotable, genuinely funny, kind of dark, sometimes edgy movie.

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It allowed the girls to be flawed. I really love that, and

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so I kind of came away with
this new appreciation for humor as a way

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of kind of taking an audience seriously. Even though it was written about the

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girls, to me, it represents
all people. There so many people represented

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in this story. Absolutely, I
totally agree. I mean I've been saying

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this that I think that mean girls, the you know that kind of concept

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at the center of this, The
ways that the girls kind of operate and

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you know, try to take each
other down and want to be but also

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want to be a part of it. All of that is all of us,

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right. It goes across genders,
it goes across age. A friend

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of mine was recently telling me how
you know her the way she said it

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was her grandmother was dealing with a
mean girl's situation at the nursing home over

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a Mojoh game. So like you
don't, it doesn't ever go away it

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you know, you'll hear people use
it even in politics to apply to all

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genders, you know what I mean, Like, you'll just always hear this.

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And it gave us this way,
I think, just the mean girls.

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The title gave us a way of
referring to this sort of situation where

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we all understand. And it was
something that in the original source material of

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the book called Queen Bees and Want
to Be As which is a nonfiction book

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that it was based on, she
called it relational aggression. But that's a

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pretty that's a hard phrase to used
in every day life. And so I

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think relational aggression becoming just like when
you say it's a mean girl's situation or

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she's such a Regina George, it's
like, we know what that is.

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What I've loved about this with Tina
Fey is that she hasn't tried to outdo

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this this movie. It's like,
you know, like when Fleewood Mac did

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Rumors, the next one had to
be better than Rumors, or the Eagles

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with Hotel California. It had to
be better than and Tina Fey just keeps

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being Tina fan She's I mean,
she's extraordinary. I think her just like

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inherent humor and wit is so unbelievable. I used to interview her like in

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the two thousands, when I always
say kind of the I covered like the

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Rise of Tina Fey and you know
when she was doing this, and then

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thirty Rock and then you know,
Sarah Palin and kind of Exploding. I

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used to talk to our fair amount
and it was always striking to me how

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we'd get on the phone and even
if we had ten minutes, it's like,

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okay, you got to talk about
your new book, let's go.

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We just rattle on. Like she'd
say like all the perfect things that you

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needed her to say in the ten
minutes, and it'd be like, we're

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good, We're good, right.
And what also was striking is so many

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times I would go read the other
stuff, all the other interviews she did

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for that, and it would be
different, and I was like, most

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of the time, if you get
really good jokes like that, it's like

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they're saying it over and over again. She would just she was just always

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kind of able to be on and
rattling off jokes, and it is just

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incredible when you say that it shaped
a generation. Do you think it's because

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it kind of identifies the snobs of
life and that in reality that if we're

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we're so easily influenced to become a
snob ourselves. Absolutely, And it gave

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us a way to talk about all
this, like I was saying, and

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kind of all the quotes right,
the way that we can quote it,

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I think defines the generation. The
way that I think, you know,

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I was talking to somebody else,
and it's like the way you can kind

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of like say it to a person
and if they know what you're talking about,

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you know that you're their kind of
person. Right. It's just it

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kind of gave us this language among
people who love this movie to talk about

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this stuff and became memes and gifts
and all of this other stuff kind of

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morphed into its own thing. I
don't think this could be a guys movie

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in the way of replacing the girls
with guys, because I just think the

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relationships between guys and girls are just
so different, for sure. And actually,

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the author of Queen Bee's and wannab
is Roslin Wiseman actually end up writing

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like a second book that was just
about because she felt like it was different

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enough. And I think that just
has to do with It's not like gender

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essentialism. It just has to do
with the way we raise girls versus boys

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is just different, and so they
have different kind of tools at their disposal

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and roles that they might play.
Wow, Jennifer, you got to come

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back to this show anytime in the
future. The door is always going to

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be open for you. Thank you
so much. This was fun. Will

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you'd be brilliant today? Okay,
thanks to too,