1 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:21,519 We're back with another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. Emil Kashinsky, culture 2 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:24,160 editor here at the Federalist. As always, you can email the show at 3 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:28,160 radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on Twitter at fdr ls T. 4 00:00:28,399 --> 00:00:32,240 Make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcasts, and if you want 5 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:35,320 to support our work, you can go to the premium version of our website 6 00:00:35,439 --> 00:00:40,039 sign up there as well. Today we're joined by author Stuart Reed. He's 7 00:00:40,039 --> 00:00:43,399 an executive editor of Foreign Affairs. He's written for The Atlantic, The New 8 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:47,280 York Times, The Washington Post, political magazine, Slate, and more. 9 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:52,840 And he's the author of a fascinating, massive new book called The La Mumba 10 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:58,000 Plot, The Secret History of the CIA and a Cold War assassinate Assassination. 11 00:00:58,439 --> 00:01:00,679 Stuart, thank you very much for joining us. Thanks for having me. 12 00:01:02,679 --> 00:01:04,400 Now. If we could start just by talking a little bit about why you 13 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:11,280 wanted to tackle the Lamumba assassination in this book, that would be awesome. 14 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:15,040 What drew you to this project in particular? So I had the chance to 15 00:01:15,239 --> 00:01:19,959 travel to Congo in twenty fourteen and that got me reading up in the country's 16 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:23,359 history, and the more I read, the more I realized there was this 17 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:29,879 amazing, tragic, fascinating moment in nineteen sixty where the country became independent from 18 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:34,200 Belgium, and then sort of all hell broke loose very quickly, and it 19 00:01:34,239 --> 00:01:37,599 was the big Cold War crisis of its day. It was front page in 20 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:41,599 the New York Times nearly every day at the time, yet I had barely 21 00:01:41,599 --> 00:01:44,319 heard of it and knew very little about it. So I wanted to know 22 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:49,560 more about what happened in this moment, why the CIA in particular was so 23 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:56,000 active in the events following Congo's independence, And then the characters also just really 24 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:59,959 drew me in there, these fascinating lives at the center of it all. 25 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:02,239 Oh my gosh, Absolutely, I can't wait to get into all of that. 26 00:02:04,239 --> 00:02:07,120 But before we begin, maybe, and I think a lot of listeners 27 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:09,240 also, probably on the right in particular, you know, the story is 28 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:13,120 not nearly as familiar as it should be to many Americans, and I'm sure 29 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:15,919 we'll talk a little bit about why, but I think it's especially unfamiliar to 30 00:02:16,599 --> 00:02:23,039 those of us on the right who have been a lot more until recent years 31 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:27,360 sort of trusting of the security apparatus and the intelligence community. But if you 32 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:31,080 could us just start Stewart by telling us a little bit about the DRC, 33 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:36,719 just the history. We can't. I know, you could talk for hours, 34 00:02:36,759 --> 00:02:39,039 I'm sure about the rich history of the DRC and how it's tied up 35 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:43,039 in the history of the West and all of that. But if you could 36 00:02:43,039 --> 00:02:46,159 just give us a little bit of background that people might need in order to 37 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:49,800 sort of be able to understand where Patrisa Lamumbuk comes from, that would be 38 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:55,680 great. So the Congo was colonized by the Belgian king, King Leopold the 39 00:02:55,759 --> 00:03:02,120 Second beginning around eighteen eighty five, and what was notable was that unlike other 40 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:07,960 European colonies, this did not belong to the state. It belonged to King 41 00:03:07,039 --> 00:03:15,400 Leopold personally. So he ran this colony as a sort of resource extraction racket, 42 00:03:15,479 --> 00:03:19,840 and then eventually the human rights abuses were so bad even for the early 43 00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:23,599 nineteen hundreds, that he was forced to turn it over to the Belgian state. 44 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:28,120 So then the Congo became a Belgian colony in the same way that other 45 00:03:28,199 --> 00:03:35,360 European countries had colonies. Fast forward into the late nineteen fifties, the wind 46 00:03:35,439 --> 00:03:40,319 of change are blowing across Africa, European powers are finally realizing that their colonial 47 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:46,000 possessions are not sustainable and that the inhabitants of these places are demanding to be 48 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:52,000 free, and so Congo excuse me, Belgium very quickly decides it has to 49 00:03:52,039 --> 00:03:59,240 offload the Congo. It decides this basically in January nineteen sixty, and independence 50 00:03:59,319 --> 00:04:01,800 was set for June nineteen sixty, so everything happened really, really quickly. 51 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:06,800 The man at the helm of the new country as prime Minister was Patrice Lamumba, 52 00:04:08,199 --> 00:04:15,040 and he had had this remarkable rise. Grew up poor in a small 53 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:20,000 village, moved to a city, joined the Belgian colonial administration as a postal 54 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:25,920 clerk, got arrested from bezzling funds, thrown in jail. After jail, 55 00:04:25,959 --> 00:04:30,519 he sort of remade himself as a beer salesman of all things, and got 56 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:35,240 active in anti colonial pro independent circles and co founded a political party. And 57 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:42,160 then in May nineteen sixty, when elections parliamentary elections were held, his party 58 00:04:42,319 --> 00:04:46,920 won the most votes and so he was asked a former government and became prime 59 00:04:46,959 --> 00:04:49,759 minister upon independence on June thirtieth, nineteen sixty. And it's remarkable just how 60 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:54,439 it all. It happened so quickly. Just to give you one sort of 61 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:58,639 example of that, as late as nineteen fifty five, there was a Belgian 62 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:01,720 academic who released a plan called the thirty year Plan for the Independence of the 63 00:05:01,759 --> 00:05:08,040 Belgian Congo. So the idea was that only by nineteen eighty five would the 64 00:05:08,639 --> 00:05:14,040 Congo be finally ready for independence. Then you know, there was pushback, 65 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:16,439 there was an anti colonial riot and the capital things changed very quickly, but 66 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:20,920 the Belgian sort of only woke up belatedly to the fact that what they were 67 00:05:21,079 --> 00:05:26,879 trying to hold on to was not sustainable. And this obviously is happening in 68 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:30,759 the middle of the Cold War, So there are all kinds of things we're 69 00:05:30,759 --> 00:05:31,839 going to talk about when it comes to that, and this is a good 70 00:05:31,879 --> 00:05:38,600 transition. What are Lamimba's politics? So where does he fall? And that's 71 00:05:38,639 --> 00:05:41,399 one of the difficulties here when we're talking about the Cold War mindset. Of 72 00:05:41,399 --> 00:05:46,360 course, it's nobody fit as neatly onto the spectrum of communism and capitalism as 73 00:05:46,759 --> 00:05:50,240 the United States and the Soviet Union wanted them to, or acted like they 74 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:56,560 did. But what were Lamimbo's politics? You know, maybe just even from 75 00:05:56,560 --> 00:06:00,480 the Congolese perspective. Yeah, so, as you you mentioned earlier, I 76 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:04,480 think you're completely right that La Mumba's stories. You know, it's not that 77 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:08,639 well known among Americans period, but to the extent that it is, it's 78 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:13,600 more well known among the left because posthumously, La Mumba was sort of adopted 79 00:06:13,639 --> 00:06:17,920 by the left and became this you know, Pan African hero and anti colonial 80 00:06:19,079 --> 00:06:24,399 symbol. But what I strove to do in my book was just sort of 81 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:29,759 set aside all the myth making and mythology that's that's a crude around the Mumba 82 00:06:29,759 --> 00:06:32,720 and just look at the man himself, his actions, his words, you 83 00:06:32,759 --> 00:06:36,680 know, his own experiences, rather than what other people ascribed to him. 84 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:42,519 And what struck me was that he was actually much more pro American than was 85 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:46,839 understood at the time or would be understood later. You know, he spoke 86 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:51,920 of sending Conglei's children to American schools, not Russian schools. He was not 87 00:06:53,120 --> 00:07:00,680 in favor of nationalizing economic activity. He signed right after Independent, he signed 88 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:05,639 over signed a contract for the Congo's mineral and hydro electric resources to be developed 89 00:07:05,639 --> 00:07:11,120 by an American entrepreneur. So what were his politics? I mean, he 90 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:15,959 never really got a chance to actually institute a governing agenda because the country just 91 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:20,560 fell into chaos within literally days, So it became at that point just a 92 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:26,759 pure game of survival rather than implementing any sort of ideology. I think a 93 00:07:26,759 --> 00:07:30,680 lot of the Congolese politicians were sort of a blank slate during the elections because 94 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:34,600 there was no record to run on because there had been no Congolese politicians before, 95 00:07:35,079 --> 00:07:39,839 and you know, people claimed various ideologies and what you know, the 96 00:07:39,959 --> 00:07:46,399 unifying factor was that people had different opinions about, you know, how anti 97 00:07:46,439 --> 00:07:51,519 Belgian to be, how pro strong central government versus week central government. So 98 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:57,959 what can be said about Lamumba is that he was a fierce proponent of Congolese 99 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:01,240 independence and nationalism. He wanted a strong central government as opposed to a week 100 00:08:01,319 --> 00:08:05,879 one in the system of federalism, which other politicians wanted. He talked about 101 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:13,319 charting a neutral course between East and West. That's sort of almost as much 102 00:08:13,319 --> 00:08:16,160 as we can say about Lumba's political ideology. He was also a pan Africanist, 103 00:08:16,279 --> 00:08:22,600 meaning he saw Africans as engaged in the same collective struggle, but there 104 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:26,680 wasn't much data to really draw on to figure out what La Mumba's political ideology 105 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:31,360 was, because it just became about survival very quickly. Yeah, it reminds 106 00:08:31,399 --> 00:08:35,919 me a little bit of the Sakarno Indonesia story, which is I mean, 107 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:41,919 your book is it goes into so much CIA sort of general CIA history, 108 00:08:41,919 --> 00:08:43,440 and I want to talk a little bit about that at some point. But 109 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:48,799 if we could talk about just sort of the state of the CIA in the 110 00:08:48,879 --> 00:08:52,799 year nineteen sixty, it's obviously under Alan Dulles, although not for too much 111 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:58,480 longer. Right before JFK takes office, it's the Eisenhower administration. They've been 112 00:08:58,519 --> 00:09:05,240 sort of experimenting with all of these cups to prevent Soviet footholds from happening all 113 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:11,159 over the world. So what is the CIA's kind of positioning politically in the 114 00:09:11,279 --> 00:09:16,519 United States and then globally as the La Mumba plot starts to coalesce. So 115 00:09:16,879 --> 00:09:20,600 this was the era of sort of the wild West era for the CIA. 116 00:09:20,759 --> 00:09:26,919 There was basically zero oversight, certainly not from Congress and barely from the White 117 00:09:26,919 --> 00:09:31,440 House. So the CIA had a lot of independent power. It was run 118 00:09:31,519 --> 00:09:37,320 by Alan Dalles, whose brother John Foster had been the Secretary of State until 119 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:43,679 his death. So Dallas had accumulated a lot of power and it could operate 120 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:46,360 as it saw fit. It was also the CIA was very young and relatively 121 00:09:46,399 --> 00:09:52,080 small. It was founded as this successor to the OSS, the World War 122 00:09:52,159 --> 00:09:58,000 two era espionage service, and so it was a new organization that there weren't 123 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:03,879 well developed norms and site at all. So in the case of Congo, 124 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:09,080 what happens is during the crisis, as Lamumba is watching his country fall apart, 125 00:10:09,519 --> 00:10:13,799 he asks the UN for help. The UN provides peacekeepers but doesn't succeed 126 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:18,519 in restoring order. He travels to the United States, asks the United States 127 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:22,879 for help, gets rebuffed, and then and only then does he turn to 128 00:10:22,919 --> 00:10:28,320 the Soviets. And that really set off alarm bells in the CIA, which 129 00:10:28,399 --> 00:10:33,159 thought that Lamumba was about to turn Congo communists and invite in the Soviets, 130 00:10:33,159 --> 00:10:39,240 and and sort of that set in motion this really crazy plan of a plot 131 00:10:39,279 --> 00:10:45,159 to assassinate Lamumba with poison that the CIA station chief was supposed to put in 132 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:48,480 Lamumba's food or toothpaste. So the CIA at the time, like the broader 133 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:56,320 Eisenhower administration, was pretty paranoid about the advance of communism and sort of interpreted 134 00:10:56,759 --> 00:11:01,039 every move La Mumba made in the context of, you know, seeing a 135 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:07,159 Soviet hand behind him. In fact, he was you know, the Soviets 136 00:11:07,159 --> 00:11:09,039 weren't that interested. One of the funny things, in a way was that 137 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:13,759 after the Cold War, when the Soviet archives opened up, there wasn't that 138 00:11:13,879 --> 00:11:18,799 much in there about Congo because they viewed it as a faraway place where communism 139 00:11:18,879 --> 00:11:24,159 was unlikely to take hold. The Soviet was not as powerful in nineteen sixty 140 00:11:24,159 --> 00:11:26,240 as it would become, so this was a distant concern where they could score 141 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:30,639 some propaganda points, but not a place where they could have real influence. 142 00:11:31,399 --> 00:11:35,120 If you read the cables to and from Washington and the CIA, you know 143 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:43,519 there's the Soviets seemed very active, right, utter paranoia. And if you 144 00:11:43,519 --> 00:11:46,080 could, I mean, you've spent a long time digging into this case study, 145 00:11:46,279 --> 00:11:50,159 and you know, years researching this case study, what were the extent 146 00:11:50,399 --> 00:11:58,120 of Lamumba's ties to the Soviets. Because you mentioned something interesting which is repeated 147 00:11:58,159 --> 00:12:01,559 in certain other case studies, and I'm remembering correctly, Sakarno is a pretty 148 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:05,919 good example of this. You could maybe make this true of Cashro as well. 149 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:11,759 But the US approach to the country either pushes people in some of these 150 00:12:11,799 --> 00:12:16,519 case studies further into the arms of the Soviets or you know, puts them 151 00:12:16,519 --> 00:12:18,639 on the radar of the Soviets when the Soviets weren't even really thinking of them 152 00:12:18,879 --> 00:12:28,000 at all. Where what were Lamimba's ties to Soviet communism? So Lumumba was, 153 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:33,000 you know, trying to seduce everyone. He wanted aid for his country. 154 00:12:33,039 --> 00:12:35,360 He didn't really care where it came from. He was and he did 155 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:39,080 have a tendency to sort of tell whatever the person in front of him wanted 156 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:41,960 to hear. So, you know, you see the meetings with the US 157 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:46,759 embassy and he's being very pro American, and with the meetings with the Soviet 158 00:12:46,759 --> 00:12:50,440 ambassador, he's saying nice things about Moscow, which is, you know, 159 00:12:50,279 --> 00:12:54,200 I guess, a typical position of a politician trying to play both sides of 160 00:12:54,240 --> 00:13:01,919 the Cold War. What we do know is that his inherent interest in the 161 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:05,240 Soviets, I'd say, was limited. He wanted practical help, specifically military 162 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:11,000 help, so that he could invade. He could send his government forces into 163 00:13:11,039 --> 00:13:16,000 the breakaway province of Katonga and reintegrate that because that province had seceeded shortly after 164 00:13:16,039 --> 00:13:22,879 independence and he wanted US help first is what he preferred. So when he 165 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:26,240 was in Washington, d c. In July nineteen sixty, he gives a 166 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:30,840 press conference where he asks for US troops to be sent to the Congo, 167 00:13:31,159 --> 00:13:35,360 which you could not have pleased Moscow. So what he eventually does, after 168 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:41,120 getting rebuffed is send a telegram to Nikita Krushev asking for this and that military 169 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:48,879 help. And the Soviets were kind of annoyed to be They had said lots 170 00:13:48,919 --> 00:13:52,120 of things about how they're watching this situation closely, and you know, the 171 00:13:52,159 --> 00:13:56,159 evil Belgian imperialists, et cetera. But then La Mumba sort of called their 172 00:13:56,159 --> 00:14:00,279 bluff and asked for military help, and so they started the process of giving 173 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:03,759 him some token aid, you know, some trucks, some planes. But 174 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:11,919 then events intervened and Lamumba was overthrown in a military coup backed by the CIA. 175 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:16,559 That sort of that made him no longer in power, and sort of 176 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:20,919 the question of Soviet aid was a point. So Lamumba, to summarize, 177 00:14:20,919 --> 00:14:24,879 was not inherently pro communist. 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The assassination plot as well. 201 00:16:21,399 --> 00:16:25,720 You describe it in the book as the forceful transfer of La Mumba into enemy 202 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:30,360 territory, and this in and of itself is cinematic and it's just like an 203 00:16:30,399 --> 00:16:34,360 incredible tragedy. The story is very compelling. You already mentioned the toothpaste and 204 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:40,200 all of that stuff. Talk to us about that. The phrase that jumped 205 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:44,840 out at me, forceful forceful transfer jumped out at me because that is the 206 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:48,440 you know the I think that is the right way to put it. And 207 00:16:49,279 --> 00:16:52,799 I imagine there are people in the CIA that would to this day or people 208 00:16:52,799 --> 00:16:57,120 that were involved at the time that would to this day maybe quibble with the 209 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:00,440 language. I don't know. You would know more obviously since you've been doing 210 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:08,920 this. But forcefool transfer is tell us why that term can accurately accurately describe 211 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:15,119 the CIA's involvement in the ultimate death of Lamimba. Right. So first, 212 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:21,559 it's important to point out that the poisoning plot sort of it fizzled out and 213 00:17:21,599 --> 00:17:26,240 became a point where the station chief, Larry Devlin, was not able to 214 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:30,799 get access to Lamumba's house, so he ended up claiming he threw the poisons 215 00:17:32,039 --> 00:17:34,880 and buried them on the banks of the Congo River. So that whole plot, 216 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:38,799 the CIA did try and kill Lamumba through poisons. They were dispatched to 217 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:44,680 Congo, it was instructed to go into Lamba's two base, but it sort 218 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:48,119 of didn't happen that way. So what did happen is there's a military coup 219 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:55,480 where Joseph Mobutu takes power encouraged by the station chief, the CIA station chief, 220 00:17:56,039 --> 00:18:02,240 financed arranged by the CIA station chief takes power. La Mumba is under 221 00:18:02,279 --> 00:18:07,680 house arrest, No longer prime minister. And then Lamumba tries to escape and 222 00:18:07,799 --> 00:18:11,440 you know, slips out of out of the house where he's being kept hiding 223 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:15,240 in the back seat of a car under the legs of his domestic servants. 224 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:22,039 And then Lamumba's caught by you know, a search party organized with the help 225 00:18:22,079 --> 00:18:26,039 of the CIA, and he's then thrown in a military prison. And Mabutu, 226 00:18:26,079 --> 00:18:30,599 who's now in charge as the military leader, knows that, you know, 227 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:33,839 okay, so we need to do something about Lamumba. It's his thinking. 228 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:38,440 And here the timing is important. This is December nineteen sixty. Kennedy's 229 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:42,680 won the election. The Eisenhower administration is coming to a close, and there's 230 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:48,799 a real fear both in the Congo and in Washington, d C. That 231 00:18:48,799 --> 00:18:53,799 that the Kennedy administration will have a sort of more pro La Mumba policy towards 232 00:18:53,799 --> 00:18:56,599 Congo and might even allow him to come back as prime minister. He'll be 233 00:18:56,640 --> 00:19:00,440 freed, He'll come back to prime minister. There are signs from the camp 234 00:19:00,519 --> 00:19:07,759 that this is a real, viable possibility. So Mobutu knows this and knows 235 00:19:07,799 --> 00:19:11,240 that that would mean the end of his political career and so he decides to 236 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:17,799 transfer to Lamumba to a province where it's certain that Lamimba will be killed upon 237 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:22,759 landing. Basically everyone agreed about this, and at that point Lamumba and Larry 238 00:19:22,759 --> 00:19:26,559 Devlin, the station chief, had a very intimate relationship. Devlin was constantly, 239 00:19:27,319 --> 00:19:33,079 you know, handing over suitcases of cash and advising him on the most 240 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:38,279 intimate matters of Congolese politics. And so we now know from the cable traffic 241 00:19:38,319 --> 00:19:45,640 that was relatively recently declassified that on January fourteenth, nineteen sixty one, Mobutu 242 00:19:45,759 --> 00:19:49,680 or someone from his circle tells Larry Devlin, Hey, we're about to transfer 243 00:19:49,839 --> 00:19:55,559 Lamumba to a province where he'll be killed. And so Devlin hears this and 244 00:19:55,599 --> 00:20:00,519 does two things. One he doesn't try and tell Mabutu to not do this 245 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:03,519 or try and talk him out of it, which in the context of their 246 00:20:03,559 --> 00:20:10,599 intimate relationship was a green light. And two, he actively keeps headquarters in 247 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:12,559 Washington, d C. Out of the loop. So even as he's updating 248 00:20:12,559 --> 00:20:18,359 them about other twists and turns in Congo, he sits on the most explosive 249 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:22,880 news. Why does he do this because he rightly fears that if he tells 250 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:27,079 his superiors what's about to happen, they'll instruct him to intervene because the Kennedy 251 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:32,160 administration is coming in. Other requests for much smaller things have been denied on 252 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:34,279 the grounds to Devlin that you know, we need to just wait, and 253 00:20:34,279 --> 00:20:37,160 this is a question for the new administration. We're in a transition. We 254 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:42,359 can't have big things happening in Congo. So Devlin gives this green light to 255 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:48,480 the Mobutu circle. He conspires to keep headquarters out of the loop, and 256 00:20:48,519 --> 00:20:56,119 then on January seventeenth, Lamumba is flown to the breakaway province of Katonga, 257 00:20:56,440 --> 00:21:00,559 tortured the entire way and taken out of the plane, tortured even more, 258 00:21:00,599 --> 00:21:07,119 and then driven into a remote clearing where he's killed by Congolese firing squad answering 259 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:14,839 commanded by Belgian officers who in turn were answering to the secessionist government there. 260 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:22,319 And he's killed just three days before Kennedy is inaugurated. It just, I 261 00:21:22,319 --> 00:21:26,519 mean, so much going on there, and you mentioned, you know, 262 00:21:26,799 --> 00:21:32,519 some of this we learned from recently declassified cables, and you know, maybe 263 00:21:32,559 --> 00:21:37,680 if we pause here just to get a little bit from you as a researcher 264 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:41,440 going through this book. How much of this I mean, I think one 265 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:45,559 of the reasons that some of this stuff isn't as well known as it should 266 00:21:45,559 --> 00:21:48,359 be and isn't as you know at present in for example, history textbooks and 267 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:52,279 curriculum, as it should be, is that the stories are still you know 268 00:21:52,319 --> 00:21:56,839 that we are learning more about some of these stories every single year. How 269 00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:02,640 much did you find who started working on this project that just in the last 270 00:22:02,759 --> 00:22:06,680 maybe two decades we didn't know some of it, We didn't know some of 271 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:11,680 it for sure? How much your new information are we continuing to learn about 272 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:15,279 all of this stuff? So much? It really bottled my mind. So 273 00:22:17,079 --> 00:22:19,839 a lot was learned in the nineteen seventies and nineteen seventy five with the Church 274 00:22:19,839 --> 00:22:26,920 Committee, specifically about that poisoning plot. And the Church Committee focused extensively on 275 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:30,319 that poisoning plot and sort of let the CIA off the hook in a way 276 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:37,079 because that particular plot never panned out. Then only in twenty thirteen there was 277 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:44,599 a new A big trove of cables was finally declassified, and then there were 278 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:48,039 some things I you know, this book came out in October and I was 279 00:22:48,279 --> 00:22:52,640 finishing it up in January and February, and there were documents being declassified you 280 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:57,440 know, that week that I then quickly incorporated their contents into my book. 281 00:22:57,519 --> 00:23:03,559 So there's a lot of stuff that was hidden, and to my great frustration, 282 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:06,960 there's a lot that still is hidden. I mean, it's been sixty 283 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:11,359 three years. I truly think literally nothing about what the US did in Congo 284 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:15,079 in nineteen sixty and nineteen sixty one should be classified. There's no plausible reason 285 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:19,400 for secrecy that I can come up with. The problem is that that the 286 00:23:19,519 --> 00:23:26,519 US government's declassification system is just completely broken and underfunded, and so everything takes 287 00:23:26,519 --> 00:23:32,160 forever, and you know, there's no default declassification. Everything has to go 288 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:36,079 through this extensive review process. So yeah, to my own surprise, there 289 00:23:36,079 --> 00:23:40,359 were there were still many, you know, nuggets out there waiting to be 290 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:45,759 found. And let's say, if we go back to the question of Kennedy. 291 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:51,359 You know, this is David Talbot and others sort of cast this and 292 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:56,759 I think rightfully as one of the big moments in the relationship between John F. 293 00:23:56,839 --> 00:24:00,680 Kennedy and Alan Dallas, and then some people extrapolate that there and say 294 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:04,680 this is one of the big moment moments in the build up to Alan Alan 295 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:14,279 Dalls's potential alleged involvement in the Kennedy assassination. As you were looking into Kennedy's 296 00:24:14,319 --> 00:24:18,599 reaction to how the CIA sort of kept him in the dark about Lamumba, 297 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:23,559 did that cast any new light for you on the relationship on this very important 298 00:24:23,599 --> 00:24:30,440 historically relationship between Kennedy and Alan Dallas. So my understanding is that the nail 299 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:34,960 in the coffin for Alan Dallas was the Bay of Pigs operation, which he 300 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:41,279 and Richard Bissel, his one of his deputies, were ultimately fired for their 301 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:45,640 or asked to resign or whatever for their role in this with Lamuma. It's 302 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:51,440 interesting because Kennedy took office on January twentieth, nineteen sixty one, thinking that 303 00:24:51,559 --> 00:24:55,519 Lamumba was still alive, even though he had died three days earlier. Because 304 00:24:55,640 --> 00:25:00,240 for about three weeks, Lamuma's death was kept a secret from all but a 305 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:03,880 small circle of people who are involved in it. So there was this weird 306 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:08,240 period where everyone knew that Lamumba had been flown to Katanga, but they didn't 307 00:25:08,279 --> 00:25:11,759 know whether he was in jail or had been murdered, and so there was 308 00:25:11,799 --> 00:25:18,319 an open question, and so Kennedy takes office still thinking that there's some chance 309 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:22,559 that Lamouma is alive. And so there's this whole alternate policy that's being developed 310 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:32,640 where some members of Kennedy's camp argue for getting rid of the Mobutu military dictatorship, 311 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:37,319 bringing Parliament back to power, and including La Mumba in some sort of 312 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:42,839 coalition government. It all becomes a point on I think it's February thirteenth when 313 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:49,200 the world learns that La Mumba has indeed died, and Kennedy is supposedly distraught 314 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:55,519 by this, but it all happened under his predecessor now also at that time. 315 00:25:55,839 --> 00:26:00,319 I suspect, although it's hard to know for sure, that Kennedy did 316 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:07,000 not know about the plot to assassinate La Mumba, the CIA plot, and 317 00:26:07,559 --> 00:26:15,759 probably did not know the extent of CIA involvement in Mumba's overthrow and eventual death. 318 00:26:15,799 --> 00:26:19,200 I mean, the CIA role in the transfer that really was did not 319 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:26,880 come out and only partially until the Church Committee. But Kennedy certainly knew that 320 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:33,119 the CIA was supporting Mobutu. He would meet with Mobutu in nineteen sixty three 321 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:36,839 at the White House, you know, telling him that if it weren't for 322 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:40,759 you, General, the Communists would have taken over. And so Kennedy becomes 323 00:26:40,799 --> 00:26:45,599 the first US president of many US presidents to have this very close relationship with 324 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:53,039 Mobutu, whom he knows is receiving CIA funding. Now, the soft power 325 00:26:53,319 --> 00:27:00,799 that the CIA used in the Congo is just sometimes it borders on absurd, 326 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:06,480 and you know that's part of the CIA's history and a lot of different places. 327 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:11,200 What can you tell us about their soft power their attempt to wield soft 328 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:15,599 power in the Congo. And I'm asking this because I sort of specifically want 329 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:21,160 to hear more about the Louis Armstrong, the Louis Armstrong visit that you write 330 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:26,440 about Stewart in the book, right, so that in fact was more of 331 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:30,599 a State Department initiative. And so there is this weird split screen moment where 332 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:40,400 in October nineteen sixty Armstrong comes to Congo as part of this Great Jazz Tour, 333 00:27:40,799 --> 00:27:45,000 sort of acting as an ambassador on behalf of American culture and music, 334 00:27:45,559 --> 00:27:49,559 and has a big concert in the main stadium in Leopoldville. The Capitol also 335 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:55,640 flies to Elizabethville and Katonga and does a concert there, and at the same 336 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:59,359 time as he's being paraded through the streets and the US is showing how they 337 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:03,200 are a friend of the Connolly's people. This whole Cia plot is happening, 338 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:07,799 and Devlin is cabling headquarters about how he can't get access to Lamuva's house to 339 00:28:07,799 --> 00:28:11,640 poison him and asking for a hunting rifle to be sent so that he can 340 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:18,160 try a different means of assassinating him. So there, but this really gets 341 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:23,119 that actually the broader tension in US foreign policy at the time, because you 342 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:27,279 know, under in the colonial era, the US had just been sort of 343 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:32,880 backing the European powers, it's European allies. But then as African countries started 344 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,599 to gain independence, the US sort of had to choose do we want to 345 00:28:36,599 --> 00:28:41,720 be on the side of our nice European NATO allies or more important longer term, 346 00:28:41,799 --> 00:28:44,400 the side of the African people. And we you know, we don't 347 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:48,319 want to be lumped in with the British and the French and the Belgians in 348 00:28:48,359 --> 00:28:51,880 Africa. We want to show that America is you know, pro freedom and 349 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:53,680 also in the context of the Cold War, we want to win them over 350 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:57,000 to our side. On the other hand, there was this sense that, 351 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:03,400 you know, we couldn't entirely trust the African politicians and publics to make up 352 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:07,039 their own mind, and hence the ci IS medaling in Congo where it tried 353 00:29:07,079 --> 00:29:12,680 to and successfully did tip things in its direction and install a pro American leader. 354 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:18,119 Hey everybody, this is Sarah Carter from the Sarah Carter Show. Thanks 355 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:22,119 so much for listening to the Federalist Radio Hour. We could all benefit from 356 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:25,680 heart healthy energy, and one of the best ways to do that is by 357 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:30,480 supporting your blood pressure and circulation. Super Beats heart shoes are an easy and 358 00:29:30,559 --> 00:29:34,119 convenient way to support healthy blood pressure paired with a healthy lifestyle. 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So you get a productive, heart healthy green boost without the jitters. 368 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:11,000 Double your potential with Superbeats Heart Shoes. Get a free thirty day supply 369 00:30:11,119 --> 00:30:15,519 of Superbeats Heart shoes and a free full sized bag. Listen to this of 370 00:30:15,599 --> 00:30:21,160 tumoric choose valued at twenty five dollars by going to America Loves Beats dot com. 371 00:30:21,319 --> 00:30:26,240 Can't beat that. Get this exclusive offer only at America loves Beats dot 372 00:30:26,279 --> 00:30:33,200 com. That's America Loves b E E T S dot com. Oh, 373 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:36,319 that's so interesting that it was the State Department that there was. Yeah, 374 00:30:36,799 --> 00:30:38,680 you used to the term split screen. That's fascinating that there was this, 375 00:30:40,839 --> 00:30:42,960 you know, the wielding of soft power in one direction. Will you have 376 00:30:44,039 --> 00:30:48,200 something happening completely different under the surface. Do you do you know whether the 377 00:30:48,279 --> 00:30:52,880 CIA and State coordinated at all on that or is it your impression that it 378 00:30:52,920 --> 00:31:00,119 was These were totally separate in an almost noteworthy way. I the assassination plot 379 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:07,039 was very closely held, I believe, if I'm remembering correctly. Larry Devlin, 380 00:31:07,119 --> 00:31:11,759 the CIA station chief chief claimed that he never even told the US Ambassador 381 00:31:11,799 --> 00:31:17,599 to Congo about it, So I think this was a totally secret within the 382 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:22,640 CIA operation that would not have leaked out into the State Department. That said, 383 00:31:23,119 --> 00:31:26,839 the ambassador to Congo at the time, a man named Claire Timberlake, 384 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:30,440 was also no fan of Lamumba and certainly aware of his government's general opposition to 385 00:31:30,519 --> 00:31:34,599 him. But you know, the way the US government works, sometimes the 386 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:38,799 left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. And I mean perhaps 387 00:31:38,839 --> 00:31:45,039 with the Armstrong tour in particular, maybe at the time one could have claimed, 388 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,680 well, you know, it's not necessarily hypocritical to be promoting American culture 389 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:52,160 at the same time as we're trying to pick our own leader. But it 390 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:57,440 did get the tension, I think, And yeah, that's man, that 391 00:31:57,599 --> 00:32:06,200 is really fascinating. The other thing I was wondering about that is, I 392 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:10,119 mean, this was authorized by I'm sure, like you, you've spent a 393 00:32:10,119 --> 00:32:14,200 long time on getting to the bottom of all of this, but this is 394 00:32:14,279 --> 00:32:17,279 ultimately the buck stops with with Alan Dallas, not with uh, not with 395 00:32:17,319 --> 00:32:22,319 Eisenhower, but with Dallas. It's Dallas that who authorizes that is who is 396 00:32:22,359 --> 00:32:24,480 the sort of like, because that's one of the biggest questions about all of 397 00:32:24,559 --> 00:32:30,680 these random CIA activities at the time around the world. You know, but 398 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:34,960 are you acting on any constitutional authority? I mean I and a lot of 399 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:38,440 thought of other people would say, of course not. But who ultimately is 400 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:46,680 sort of to blame for authorizing the forceful transfer or the allowing of Lamimba's murder? 401 00:32:47,519 --> 00:32:52,200 Right, So, just to back up a bit, it's the poisoning 402 00:32:52,279 --> 00:32:55,720 plot. Interestingly enough, was not a case of an out of control CIA 403 00:32:55,880 --> 00:33:01,279 freelancing and getting out of its skis. Eisenho on August eighteenth, nineteen sixty 404 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:07,079 said something to the effect that Lamumba had to be physically eliminated. We know 405 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:12,599 this for a few reasons. One, the note taker at the meeting later 406 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:16,119 testified to the Church committee that he remembered the president saying something to that effect. 407 00:33:17,119 --> 00:33:22,880 I also, when I was digging around the Eisenhower archives in Kansas, 408 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:25,079 I found handwritten notes from the meeting where someone writes la Mumba and then a 409 00:33:25,079 --> 00:33:29,000 big black accent next to his name, which could mean lots of things, 410 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,839 but adds to the evidence. And then we know what happened next, which 411 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:38,119 is that Dulles after hearing this order essentially on August eighteenth, nineteen sixty, 412 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:43,079 Dallas doesn't really do anything. And so there's another meeting about a week later 413 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:50,839 where Eisenhower's National security advisor, Gordon Gray says to Dulles basically, hey, 414 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:52,680 remember that thing the President talked about last week, Like, I just want 415 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:54,799 to make sure you're on that, And Della says, oh, okay, 416 00:33:54,799 --> 00:33:59,880 okay, got it. And only then does the operation set in motion. 417 00:34:00,839 --> 00:34:06,680 So what's unique about the Lamuma cases that you really can trace it to the 418 00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:10,960 top in terms of that poisoning plot. Now in the way that Lamumba ultimately 419 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:15,119 died, that was at the total opposite end of the spectrum. That was 420 00:34:15,159 --> 00:34:21,840 a local initiative in Congo, Greenland, as I mentioned by the CIA station 421 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:25,000 chief, who was actively keeping headquarters out of the loop because at that time 422 00:34:27,559 --> 00:34:32,519 Lamomba, you know, Washington didn't need Lamumba dead at that point and didn't 423 00:34:32,519 --> 00:34:37,519 in fact necessarily want him dead. The State Department instructed the US ambassador to 424 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:43,960 Congo to plead for Lamumba's humane treatment. So there was a total flip in 425 00:34:44,039 --> 00:34:49,880 policy where earlier they wanted him dead and had stuff set in motion to achieve 426 00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,000 that end and then only later did they they completely flip. But the man 427 00:34:53,039 --> 00:34:57,960 on the spot, Larry Devlin, was able. He had a lot of 428 00:34:58,039 --> 00:35:01,159 power and authority. I mean, this is nineteen sixty one. The communications 429 00:35:01,159 --> 00:35:06,599 with Washington were not that great, so you necessarily had to rely a lot 430 00:35:06,639 --> 00:35:10,039 on the man in the field making decisions on his own, and Devlin took 431 00:35:10,039 --> 00:35:15,920 advantage of that to the fullest. You know. The other thing in this 432 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:19,280 case and some of the others, in this case is one of the more 433 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:25,039 interesting ones because Lumumba is killed by opposition and not the CIA, as you 434 00:35:25,519 --> 00:35:32,880 just explained, What can you tell us about the level of organic political opposition 435 00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:37,679 to La Mumba that did exist, because you know, in some of these 436 00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:42,800 situations it's sort of hard to tell what's astroturfed and what's organic. And I 437 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,480 imagine, you know, having spent years on this, that's abundantly clear, 438 00:35:45,519 --> 00:35:51,280 like sort of trying to disentangle the AstroTurf from the organic, and it's almost 439 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:54,920 becomes a chicken or an egg. But what was his political opposition like on 440 00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:59,679 the ground in the Congo before his death? Yeah, so that there was 441 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:06,039 real legitimate opposition to Lamumba particularly, he was seen as having you know, 442 00:36:06,119 --> 00:36:09,480 mishandled the great crisis that his country was in, where the army mutiny, 443 00:36:09,639 --> 00:36:15,519 the province, two provinces succeeded, everything was falling apart, and La Mumba 444 00:36:15,559 --> 00:36:21,400 was blamed by many for not handling that well, and a fair case could 445 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:23,719 be made for that. I should also point out, however, that he 446 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:28,400 was the most popular politician in Congo. You know, it was a very 447 00:36:28,559 --> 00:36:34,800 fractured political scene, and he didn't by any means win the parliamentary elections and 448 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:37,960 anything approaching landslide, but he was, you know, he was the democratically 449 00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:45,079 elected leader. The CIA also funded street protests in the capitol, so you 450 00:36:45,119 --> 00:36:47,599 know, there was that sort of asterturfing that you're talking about. And then 451 00:36:47,599 --> 00:36:54,000 there were also these two very powerful secessionist movements. So in South Kasai, 452 00:36:54,079 --> 00:36:59,519 one breakaway province, a diamond rich province, there was a you know, 453 00:37:00,559 --> 00:37:05,599 secessionist movement that was anti Lamumba. And then also in Katonga, the copper 454 00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:09,559 rich province in the southeast, there was an anti Lamumba secessionist movement that was 455 00:37:09,679 --> 00:37:17,920 very much backed by the Belgian Belgian mining interests the Belgian government. So were 456 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:22,760 there Did Lamumba have legitimate, real opponents, yes? Were they also massively 457 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:28,960 empowered by outside interests who agreed with them, Yes, as well. And 458 00:37:29,039 --> 00:37:31,880 when it comes to Lamumba's ultimate death, I mean, it's sort of like 459 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:36,880 a lot of different actors had to do things in a certain way in order 460 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:39,960 for La Mumba to die, and one of those actors a key point was 461 00:37:40,079 --> 00:37:46,920 the CIA station chief. And part of the problem of you know, not 462 00:37:47,079 --> 00:37:53,400 telling these stories is we don't learn from those mistakes. So I'm curious Stewart, 463 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:58,679 as you were studying this story so closely for so long, if you 464 00:37:58,679 --> 00:38:01,400 could tell us just a little bit of out what happened, and some people 465 00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:07,480 actually probably know because of Mabutu, But what happened in the power vacuum, 466 00:38:07,039 --> 00:38:12,039 what happened in the years after, and what some of the big maybe you 467 00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:16,760 stand out lessons that the US and other powers can take from this example are. 468 00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:22,679 So the CIA viewed its operations in Congo as its success, and in 469 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:27,599 extremely narrow Cold War terms, that was, there was a certain truth to 470 00:38:27,639 --> 00:38:31,519 that a potentially pro Soviet leader had been eliminated, and in his place, 471 00:38:31,599 --> 00:38:37,519 the US backed a pro American military leader, and you know, in the 472 00:38:37,519 --> 00:38:40,960 Cold War context, what was not to like the problem, of course was 473 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:49,639 that the Congolese people suffered as a result. So Mobutu, you know, 474 00:38:50,679 --> 00:38:57,280 it replaces La Mumba in September nineteen sixty stays in power, sort of the 475 00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:00,559 power behind the throne until nineteen sixty five, were he gets rid of the 476 00:39:00,599 --> 00:39:06,239 pretense that he's not technically in charge and becomes president himself, and then he 477 00:39:06,679 --> 00:39:09,679 he runs the country into the ground over the next thirty plus years, and 478 00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:15,880 in nineteen ninety six nineteen ninety seven, the country that he's renamed Zaire outright 479 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:22,639 collapses, sparking a civil war that was one of the deadliest in recent history. 480 00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:28,599 So you have thirty plus years of dictatorship, poverty, repression followed by 481 00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:34,880 one of the bloodiest civil wars that resulted from this hollow regime finally caving in. 482 00:39:35,079 --> 00:39:39,480 So the consequences are pretty clear. And the irony, I think is 483 00:39:39,519 --> 00:39:45,039 that I mean American, the US thought it was getting this nice pro American 484 00:39:45,559 --> 00:39:52,239 regime, but in fact Mabutu, like was, was not particularly pro American 485 00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:54,519 in any way. So he invited in North Korean military advisors. For instance, 486 00:39:54,920 --> 00:40:00,159 he kicked out two US ambassadors for showing insufficient respect him he wants, 487 00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:05,199 in the height of irony, accused the CIA of plotting to overthrow him. 488 00:40:05,599 --> 00:40:09,559 So it wasn't as if the US even got this clientt pro American dictator for 489 00:40:09,599 --> 00:40:15,800 all the money it was paying. It got a erratic, kleptocratic leader who 490 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:22,079 destroyed the country. I mean, I think the lesson for today is to 491 00:40:22,159 --> 00:40:25,840 beware of sort of short term thinking about you know, at any given moment, 492 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:30,320 it can seem like this safe thing to do is back the pro American 493 00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:35,679 military ruler. But if you expand the time horizon even just a bit and 494 00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:39,159 think about longer term stability, and certainly if you start to include the needs 495 00:40:39,199 --> 00:40:43,719 of the everyday people living in that country, you can start to see the 496 00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:51,800 downsides of propping up an unrepresentative military regime. And Sir, one more question, 497 00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:53,400 why have you here? Just because it was something that kind of came 498 00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:58,760 to the forefront in the last couple of days of conversation, there was a 499 00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:04,920 lot of panic over TikTok videos about the Osama bin Laden letter to America, 500 00:41:05,159 --> 00:41:08,800 and actually there's a CIA connection to Osama Bin Laden that a lot of people 501 00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:14,679 know about the misja haden And just while we're talking about lessons, uh and 502 00:41:15,079 --> 00:41:17,760 talking about lessons that you know, we we don't even talk about in the 503 00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:22,239 sort of like high profile political discourse. We don't even think or talk about 504 00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:29,719 these things all too often. Do you see today, maybe especially with younger 505 00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:32,440 people, that the less we talk about some of this stuff, the more 506 00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:37,480 powerful it is. You know, when when young people have one view of 507 00:41:37,519 --> 00:41:43,360 a conflict that maybe lacks some nuance and then hear things that they're missing, 508 00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:47,199 it's it's seems to me counterproductive. It seems to me that you know, 509 00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:51,679 it does, you know, lead people down different paths, you know, 510 00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:55,079 the sort of truth becomes forbidden and takes on a new sort of power and 511 00:41:55,360 --> 00:42:00,559 can drive people in good directions, can also drive people in bad direct just 512 00:42:00,559 --> 00:42:06,000 because you know, it seems like we're we're still hiding some things from the 513 00:42:06,119 --> 00:42:09,880 global community. Yeah, I mean, I think secrecy, especially secrecy about 514 00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:15,480 something from nineteen sixty and nineteen sixty one, is not a sign of confidence. 515 00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:20,800 A good open democracy should be able to say, you know what, 516 00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:24,079 here are the files of things we did many many years ago. We're just 517 00:42:24,079 --> 00:42:28,719 putting it all out on the table. We're a you know, self correcting, 518 00:42:29,639 --> 00:42:34,800 confident democracy that isn't afraid of the ghosts and its own the skeletons in 519 00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:39,400 its own closet. But because of this broken declassification system, the US is 520 00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:45,039 effectively just hiding all this stuff and refusing to have it be open, which 521 00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:47,880 breeds, you know, yet more conspiracy theories and oh what are you hiding? 522 00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:52,639 And I think, you know, I don't think there's some very intentional 523 00:42:52,679 --> 00:42:58,440 decision at high levels of the US government to keep the CONGO files closed. 524 00:42:58,519 --> 00:43:05,119 It's just a sort of purecratic problem of no one's incentivized to care about this 525 00:43:05,199 --> 00:43:08,280 within the US government. The result is that all this stuff that should be 526 00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:13,480 open is still kept behind lock and key. And I mean, I think 527 00:43:13,559 --> 00:43:16,800 this is it's an opportunity for the United States, particularly when it comes to 528 00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:20,679 the CONGO files, to open it up and say, okay, world, 529 00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:22,400 here's what happened. Have at it. You know, we have we have 530 00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:27,480 nothing to hide. And you know, just because our predecessors sixty plus years 531 00:43:27,519 --> 00:43:30,639 ago did bad things doesn't mean we're inherently evil today. It can also be 532 00:43:30,679 --> 00:43:35,840 a nice diplomatic gift to Congo in the context of trying to you know, 533 00:43:36,039 --> 00:43:40,079 curry favor with the Congolese government as opposed to having them you know, cozy 534 00:43:40,119 --> 00:43:44,679 up to Rush or China. It just seems like an easy diplomatic win, 535 00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:51,039 the right thing to do, good for openness and scholarship. Yet it's still 536 00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:53,920 so much of it is hidden. There's a CIA, their internal history of 537 00:43:54,039 --> 00:44:00,559 the operations against La Mumba are still classified in full. So I just think 538 00:44:00,599 --> 00:44:04,519 it's long past time to open up the files. And how do the people 539 00:44:04,559 --> 00:44:08,280 in the Congo see the US today? You know, I came into this 540 00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:13,039 project expecting, oh, well, you know, they must be very anti 541 00:44:13,039 --> 00:44:16,519 American, given all the terrible things Washington did to them in nineteen sixty nineteen 542 00:44:16,519 --> 00:44:20,800 sixty one, you know, just like how Iranians are anti American because of 543 00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:27,679 the you know, Mosedekkup or whatever. To my surprise, Congo, like 544 00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:30,119 much of the rest of Sub Saharan Africa, is actually quite pro American. 545 00:44:30,639 --> 00:44:35,079 And so it's sort of a puzzle in a way. I think what explains 546 00:44:35,119 --> 00:44:40,800 that is one that US malfeasans was not particularly well known at the time and 547 00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:45,599 only came out later. And also for thirty plus years, they had a 548 00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:52,159 dictator who was not explicitly anti American, with the exceptions I mentioned earlier. 549 00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:55,119 So unlike Iran, where you had a regime in power that was, you 550 00:44:55,119 --> 00:44:59,840 know, constantly chanting death to America, in Congo, you didn't have that. 551 00:44:59,880 --> 00:45:04,679 The The population is way less anti American than you might expect, given 552 00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:10,039 what they've suffered at the hands of Americans. Stuart Read, author of the 553 00:45:10,119 --> 00:45:15,079 La Mumba Plot, The Secret History of the CIA in a Cold War Assassination. 554 00:45:15,199 --> 00:45:17,280 This is a massive book with new stuff in it. First of all, 555 00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:21,679 congratulations Stuart, and thank you so much for taking the time to talk 556 00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:23,320 about it on the show. It was really fun talking to you. Thanks 557 00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:27,559 for having me. Of course, you have been listening to another edition of 558 00:45:27,599 --> 00:45:30,119 The Federalist for Radio hour a Memalikashinski, culture editor here at The Federalist. 559 00:45:30,159 --> 00:45:32,960 We'll be back soon with more. Until then, be lovers of freedom and 560 00:45:34,119 --> 00:45:42,280 anxious for the fray. Right. Well, you