1 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:21,879 We're back with another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily Dashinsky, 2 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:24,719 culture editor here at the Federalist. As always, you can email the show 3 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:28,960 at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on Twitter at fdr LST. 4 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:33,359 Make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcasts into the premium version of 5 00:00:33,359 --> 00:00:37,679 our website as well. Today we're joined by author Gregory Kocol. He has 6 00:00:37,719 --> 00:00:40,640 a new book out. It's actually a sequel to another book. It's called 7 00:00:40,719 --> 00:00:48,320 Street Smarts, Using Answers using Questions to answer Christianity's toughest questions. He represents 8 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:52,759 the organization Stand to Reason. Gregory, thank you for joining the show. 9 00:00:53,359 --> 00:00:56,799 Emily is fine if you let me call you em I'll let you call me 10 00:00:56,840 --> 00:01:00,960 Greg. Okay, it sounds a good deal to me. Where can people, 11 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:03,159 by the way, find a the book and be Where can they find 12 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:07,680 more information about Stand to Reason? Well, Stand to Reason it's the organization. 13 00:01:07,719 --> 00:01:12,319 I represent the acronym as str and, So the website is str dot 14 00:01:12,599 --> 00:01:15,840 org and they can get the book there or they can also get the book 15 00:01:17,239 --> 00:01:21,159 on Amazon. Course very easy. It's easier to find it by my last 16 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:23,159 name, because there's more. If you could just type in Street Smarts, 17 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:29,079 you're gonna get kung fu things, you know, Mma STU. My last 18 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:34,239 time is spelled ko u k l ko u k l. And then both 19 00:01:34,239 --> 00:01:38,519 of the books Tactics, which is the prequel, and Street Smarts with is 20 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:42,200 the sequel, and that really they all kind of cover the same ground. 21 00:01:42,439 --> 00:01:46,319 Well, I should say they are related in the same way, but they 22 00:01:46,359 --> 00:01:49,959 cover different ground. One is kind of more advanced than the other. And 23 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:53,519 incidentally, we'll talk about the Street Smarts that's the main focus of our conversation 24 00:01:53,599 --> 00:01:57,680 today. But folks do not need to have Red Tactics to be able to 25 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:00,200 benefit from Street Smarts, because I bring them up to be on the whole 26 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:05,480 tactical game plan in the beginning of the book Street Smarts. And as we 27 00:02:05,719 --> 00:02:07,879 dive into or right before we dive into Street Smarts, could you tell us 28 00:02:07,879 --> 00:02:12,599 a little bit just about your background, your career, what led you to 29 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:15,719 this point. Yeah, well it's a long story. To keep it brief 30 00:02:16,039 --> 00:02:21,199 because my spiritual birthday is in about two weeks and I will have been a 31 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:25,080 Christian half a century. I became a Christian at twenty three. Now I 32 00:02:25,159 --> 00:02:30,240 just revealed my age as a student at UCLA, and I had thought I 33 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:36,840 had tried Christianity being raised in a religious denomination, but cast that off mid 34 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:42,319 sixties when everything was getting wild and crazy and exciting for a young male finally 35 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:46,599 and initially kind of experiencing his own world for himself. And it wasn't until 36 00:02:46,599 --> 00:02:53,240 about three or four years after that that I really began thinking about the claims 37 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:57,919 that Jesus of Nazareth made about himself, the claim he made about the nature 38 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:00,199 of reality, and then nick claims he made on my own life. And 39 00:03:00,479 --> 00:03:04,680 kind of after asking a lot of questions and pushing back a lot, and 40 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:07,719 you know, coming back to the table, I finally came to the conclusion 41 00:03:07,759 --> 00:03:10,960 that Jesus got it right, and the smart money was on Jesus, and 42 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:16,039 I began following him in nineteen seventy three, and so it's it's been a 43 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:23,599 mister Toad's wild ride ever since. Have had all kinds of amazing experiences with 44 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:27,879 the Lord. I worked three and a half months in Europe in nineteen seventy 45 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:30,000 six, and five and a half weeks of those I spent behind what was 46 00:03:30,039 --> 00:03:34,639 then called the Iron Curtain, working with Christians who are being persecuted for their 47 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:38,479 convictions. I lived in Thailand in nineteen eighty two for seven months working with 48 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:43,840 Cambodian refugees who had survived the Cambodian Holocaust from nineteen seventy five to seventy nine, 49 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:46,199 and then I took a pastor role at a church for a few years, 50 00:03:46,199 --> 00:03:53,120 about eight years, and then started Stand to Reason in nineteen let's see 51 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:59,680 nineteen ninety three, and that means this year as our thirtieth anniversary, and 52 00:04:00,039 --> 00:04:03,879 so we have been in a bowl market for thirty years. It's been fantastic. 53 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:08,599 Like I said, it's a you know, mister Toad's wild ride, 54 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:12,879 like having a tiger by the tail. But we've seen some amazing things in 55 00:04:12,879 --> 00:04:17,240 those thirty years. I've spoken more than ninety college and university campuses here and 56 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:21,600 abroad, and written a number of books, and have a great staff of 57 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:26,519 nineteen people with five other speakers that do the same kind of thing that I 58 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:30,759 do, making the case that Christianity is worth thinking about the smart moneys on 59 00:04:30,879 --> 00:04:34,800 Jesus. So that kind of brings us very quickly to this present moment. 60 00:04:35,199 --> 00:04:39,959 Well exactly, And you used a fantastic phrase that it's been a bowl market 61 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:45,879 for thirty years, and it's certainly hard to argue with that tell us about 62 00:04:45,959 --> 00:04:51,279 the type of person this book is for. Well. Our mission statements, 63 00:04:51,319 --> 00:04:56,560 tandaries, and starts with three words, we train Christians. So we're not 64 00:04:56,600 --> 00:05:00,879 an evangelistic organization that we want to, of course have an gillistic impact. 65 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:06,199 We are really here as a more discipleship and we are here to build Christians 66 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:11,319 to be able to make the case at first to think more carefully about their 67 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:15,199 convictions. And Christians have not, historically, When I say historically, I 68 00:05:15,199 --> 00:05:18,839 mean within my lifetime or even the twentieth century, characteristically have not been good 69 00:05:18,879 --> 00:05:25,000 at thinking. We've been great at thinking before that, but we've kind of 70 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:30,199 abandoned that for other things, more emotional appeals, and consequently we left the 71 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:35,720 field the culture to the disciples of Nietzsche and Darwin and Marx and Freud and 72 00:05:35,759 --> 00:05:40,120 a a whole bunch of others that have kind of taken over. And this 73 00:05:40,199 --> 00:05:44,040 is kind of what we're facing right now. We're facing a culture that is 74 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:47,600 extremely hostile to Christianity. When I first became a Christian, I was you 75 00:05:47,639 --> 00:05:49,879 know, it was Jesus movement. You know, if you see the movie 76 00:05:49,959 --> 00:05:57,480 Jesus, the Jesus went Revolution. Yeah, well that's what that's the era. 77 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:00,120 That's the time that I became a Christian. I actually didn't see the 78 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:04,199 movie because I didn't need to live, you know, a long hair and 79 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:12,680 everything. But it was the Gospel was quite straightforward then in the sense that 80 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:15,319 people understood the language and the concepts and even though if they didn't follow it, 81 00:06:15,519 --> 00:06:21,480 and so communicating the gospel was a lot easier. Now the Gospel simply 82 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:27,879 characterized seems like hate speech to some people, and so we have to do 83 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:32,839 a lot more of what Francis Schaefer called pre evangelism. And because of the 84 00:06:32,879 --> 00:06:39,000 heat in the street, so to speak, because the street is any place 85 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:43,800 you feel vulnerable and uncomfortable in a spiritual environment. The way I'm using the 86 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:46,720 word. This could be with colleagues, this could be with a family, 87 00:06:46,759 --> 00:06:53,879 members, friends, students, university professors. I mean, it's very hostile 88 00:06:53,879 --> 00:06:58,680 out there ideologically, and it can get hostile between people. And so Christians 89 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:03,519 are sitting on the bench large because they're scared, which I understand. Jesus 90 00:07:03,519 --> 00:07:08,720 when he sent his first missionary team out, so to speak, Matthew ten, 91 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:14,720 he said, do not fear three times inside of seven sentences. Paul 92 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:18,279 believe it or not, the Great Apostle Paul Acts sixteen had his knees knocking 93 00:07:18,319 --> 00:07:24,120 together in Corinth and he had to have an appearance of Jesus in the middle 94 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:27,519 of the nights and said, Paul, get out there and speak. Don't 95 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:30,720 be afraid anymore. I have many people in this city, so it is 96 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:35,680 natural to feel frightened when there's a threat. All right, and there is 97 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:40,360 a threat. However, you know, we got seuth Central here at Los 98 00:07:40,399 --> 00:07:43,680 Angeles. You don't go to Seuth Central. You don't walk around there unless 99 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:46,839 maybe you're an MMA fighter or you're packing you know, a weapon or something 100 00:07:46,879 --> 00:07:54,240 like that. In other words, when you're prepared for challenging circumstances, the 101 00:07:54,279 --> 00:08:00,079 fear level drops precipitously. And this is what my goal has been with the 102 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:05,600 Tactics book first and now the one that just released yesterday, actually street Smarts 103 00:08:05,399 --> 00:08:11,040 using questions to answer Christianity stuff as challenges. This is written for Christians to 104 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:16,759 think more carefully about the challenging issues that they're faced with, and will talk 105 00:08:16,759 --> 00:08:20,560 a little bit more about that, but in general, things like abortion and 106 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:24,399 atheism and the problem of evil and challenges that people make to the Bible, 107 00:08:24,519 --> 00:08:30,720 slavery and genocide, challenges with gender and sex and marriage, all of these 108 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:35,559 kinds of things that we're being confronted with all the time. Challenges about Jesus, 109 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:41,080 his person and his work, Jesus being the only way. Really, 110 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:43,440 are you kidding? You know? That kind of thing, how arrogant, 111 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:48,240 how narrow minded. So each of those are chapters in this book. After 112 00:08:48,279 --> 00:08:52,480 I lay out the game plan and talk a little bit about the spiritual environment 113 00:08:52,519 --> 00:08:58,360 that people will be encountering, the Effician six stuff you know, behind the 114 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:07,159 scenes, spiritual schemes that are in play, and talking about why questions are 115 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:11,039 so critical to engaging productively in the culture, and this is the foundation of 116 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:16,240 the game plan. Questions keep you safe. Put simply. Then I go 117 00:09:16,279 --> 00:09:24,519 into substant substantial analysis of these different areas of challenge. And here's the key. 118 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:31,080 Here give sample dialogues with sample questions that help Christians to get into the 119 00:09:31,159 --> 00:09:39,120 conversation and maneuver in the conversation with tremendous safety, with calmness, dialogically with 120 00:09:39,159 --> 00:09:46,159 other people having largely friendly conversations. This is what we're after, and these 121 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:50,080 are constructed in such a way as to keep things tame, keep it safe 122 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:54,919 for Christians, but also make it effective. You know, I was actually 123 00:09:54,960 --> 00:10:01,279 going to ask, although I hesitated to ask this question, why questions? 124 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:05,720 Because it's asking a question about the value of questions. It sort of answers 125 00:10:05,759 --> 00:10:11,759 itself. But why questions? Why are they so central to your blueprint or 126 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:18,080 your roadmap for questions looking to evangelize? Well, I kind of my icon 127 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:24,360 for this idea is not Socrates, though he's historically characteristic the Socratic method. 128 00:10:24,399 --> 00:10:30,279 It's rather Lieutenant Colombo of TV fame, and many people still remember him. 129 00:10:30,279 --> 00:10:33,399 He's in the number one TV icon of all time because he would come in 130 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:39,799 and solve his murder mystery with coming in very much under the radar, scratching 131 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:41,919 his head, mumbling to himself, I don't know as something about this thing 132 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:46,000 that bothers me. You know, you know, he doesn't look dangerous, 133 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:50,039 and he starts asking these questions. But in asking the questions, he's gathering 134 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:54,320 information. So questions allow you to come in in a low key way, 135 00:10:54,879 --> 00:11:01,240 showing an interest in another person's point of view, gathering information in a safe 136 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:03,720 environment. Because if you're just asking questions, I mean, you're just ankle 137 00:11:03,759 --> 00:11:07,559 deep in the pool. There's no risk at all to asking questions. We 138 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:11,840 start making statements, which oftentimes, certainly the more aggressive type of Christian, 139 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:16,279 who's going to do Now we've got something to defend, and now we're a 140 00:11:16,279 --> 00:11:20,279 big target for attack because we're a target for attack. Taking that approach, 141 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:22,960 a lot of Christians aren't even going to go there. They're not going to 142 00:11:24,039 --> 00:11:26,240 go on the street. They're going to stay in the house, doors, 143 00:11:26,279 --> 00:11:31,240 lock lights out, you know, needs knocking. And so the questions give 144 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:37,480 them a means of getting into the conversation in a friendly way. They also 145 00:11:39,519 --> 00:11:43,440 provide an opportunity to get the kind of information that they're going to need to 146 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:48,440 move forward. And we just discuss that at a moment. But here's another 147 00:11:48,519 --> 00:11:52,799 key, and you're exemplifying it right here. Okay, Emily, I'm doing 148 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:56,519 all the talking. I'm doing all the heavy lifting. I'm doing all the 149 00:11:56,559 --> 00:12:01,159 work here. All right, you're just sitting there asking a question here and 150 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:05,759 there. Easy for you, But guess what this conversation is going in the 151 00:12:05,799 --> 00:12:09,679 direction that you are sending it. You're in the driver's seat because you're asking 152 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:15,120 the questions, and so this is critical. When we ask the questions, 153 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:20,600 we are the ones that are directing the conversation and choosing where it's going to 154 00:12:20,639 --> 00:12:26,360 go. And we can change our course midstream if we want by asking other 155 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:30,960 questions as we get more information. And so all of these are very, 156 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:37,039 very powerful reasons why questions are so important. Plus, the pressure, as 157 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:39,240 they intimated a moment ago, as not on us. So like you asked 158 00:12:39,279 --> 00:12:43,679 me the question, there, you are relaxed. You have time to think 159 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:48,399 about, well, where might I take this conversation with gregor whoever you're interviewing 160 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:52,679 in the next step. Same thing for us. We get hit with a 161 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:56,360 hard challenge. If we start asking questions and we're listening, we're also buying 162 00:12:56,399 --> 00:13:01,679 some time breathing room here for us to think about what to do next. 163 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:09,039 Hey, y'all, this is Sarah Carter, investigative columnist and host of The 164 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:13,080 Sarah Carter Show. Thanks for listening to the Federalist. We all have a 165 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:16,600 heartfelt reason to support our blood pressure. In fact, more than half of 166 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:20,399 the US population would benefit from blood pressure support. Super Beats heart shoes are 167 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:26,480 easy and convenient way to support healthy blood pressure and promote heart healthy energy paired 168 00:13:26,519 --> 00:13:30,840 with a healthy lifestyle. 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That's saar yet Superbeats dot com 177 00:14:07,279 --> 00:14:13,120 code Sarah to get fifteen percent off your first order yet Superbeats dot Com promo 178 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:18,080 code Sarah. You know, I want to go back to the point about 179 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:22,679 it being a bowl market because it occurs to me. We have the conservative 180 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:26,559 movement tends to be very heavily Catholic, so we have a lot of Catholic 181 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:30,600 authors and thinkers on the show, and I think the first person I posted 182 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:35,080 this question to was Raymond Arroyo, and it was about the resurgence of Latin 183 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:41,960 mass especially among young urban Orthodox Catholics, and why so many young, urban 184 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:48,840 educated people, maybe not even Catholic, are being drawn to Catholicism, to 185 00:14:48,039 --> 00:14:52,919 Latin Mass. I've heard I've heard it from some members of the Jewish community, 186 00:14:52,639 --> 00:14:56,279 and it speaks to I think the reality of that bowl market, that 187 00:14:56,279 --> 00:15:01,519 there is something right now about religion that is pulling at the hearts of a 188 00:15:01,559 --> 00:15:07,000 few people my age, millennials, gen Z. Because for some people, 189 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:11,639 the pains of a hyper secularized, high tech world are starting to become more 190 00:15:11,679 --> 00:15:16,000 and more obvious. And I wanted to ask if that's something you're dealing with, 191 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:20,360 and if that's something that people can look to this book for. Well, 192 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:24,200 you know, it's interesting. It's a very good observation, Emily, 193 00:15:24,279 --> 00:15:30,559 You're making it. I think what we see as a polarization and a galvanizing 194 00:15:30,759 --> 00:15:35,559 Okay, Unfortunately, the galvanizing people are just getting so hardened because of the 195 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:41,879 When there are public conversations about anything controversial, they turn into gladiator events. 196 00:15:41,919 --> 00:15:43,720 You know, who can draw first blood, who can draw the most blood. 197 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:48,279 And we're not interested in this as Christians. We shouldn't be, and 198 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:52,000 though sometimes we get pulled into it. But what you're identifying is a deep 199 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:56,480 human need. We are all made in the image of God and we have 200 00:15:56,519 --> 00:15:58,799 to live in the world that God made. I mean, that's a fact 201 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:02,000 of reality. Friends. The Shaffer is the first person that I remember saying 202 00:16:02,039 --> 00:16:04,879 this, and it's really impacted me because it's helped me. In the Tactics 203 00:16:04,919 --> 00:16:10,399 book, there's a tactic called inside out, and the point of the tactic 204 00:16:10,559 --> 00:16:15,480 is to be aware that inside of every human being is a whole, whole 205 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:21,919 passle of information that they're born with. They know intuitively that God is built 206 00:16:22,159 --> 00:16:25,720 into them because they're made in the image of God, and this is a 207 00:16:25,759 --> 00:16:29,759 moral nature. For example, there is this is an understanding that life is 208 00:16:29,799 --> 00:16:33,519 more than just molecules clashing in the universe, Okay, that there is purpose 209 00:16:33,559 --> 00:16:37,480 in life. This is why we talk people out of suicide. We try 210 00:16:37,519 --> 00:16:41,600 to even if we're atheists. Well, why because we don't want to waste 211 00:16:41,639 --> 00:16:45,080 their life. We can't waste the life that has no meaning. We intuitively 212 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:47,639 know it has a meaning. Okay. So now, when you've got a 213 00:16:47,639 --> 00:16:52,639 culture that is focusing on it's not that there's no meaning and culture. Now 214 00:16:52,679 --> 00:16:56,600 that's not the emphasis. The emphasis now is the meaning is all inside of 215 00:16:56,639 --> 00:17:00,240 you. You have the burden of constructing your own identity for the moment, 216 00:17:00,399 --> 00:17:06,160 okay, And that's what authenticity is. Well, human individuals are not an 217 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:11,759 adequate reference point for deep, profound meaning. And all this leads to that 218 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:19,519 you do you is just profound and deeply unsatisfying a long run narcissism. Okay. 219 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:22,599 So what's the response. Some people are waking up to that. And 220 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:27,079 so what they're looking for is they are certainly looking to fill that God shaped 221 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:30,720 vacuum, and the only thing that can fill it is God. You know, 222 00:17:32,319 --> 00:17:36,519 as Augustine said, our hearts are restless and they continue to be restless 223 00:17:36,599 --> 00:17:38,920 until they find the rest in you, okay, And so that's what they're 224 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:47,279 after. Now, I think what some of the more liturgical forms of religious 225 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:53,240 expression, okay, help them to feel more stable. There's something ancient about 226 00:17:53,279 --> 00:17:57,920 it, there's something solid about it. There's it's actually it's it's retroactive. 227 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:03,799 It's in a certain sense reactionary. It's going back to an older time when 228 00:18:03,839 --> 00:18:07,759 things were simpler and when they're more comfortable. And I understand that, and 229 00:18:07,799 --> 00:18:11,279 I think that's fine as long as what they're going back to that has this 230 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:18,759 structure also as the truth. Just going back to any kind of religious structure 231 00:18:19,079 --> 00:18:22,279 is not going to be adequate because that's not going to fill the whole. 232 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:29,279 It will help them feel better in a chaotic universe, but if in that 233 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:33,759 environment they're actually getting the truth and not just some religion that makes them feel 234 00:18:33,759 --> 00:18:37,680 good for a while, Yeah, I like this religion. I like Buddhism. 235 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:42,480 Well, religion isn't about what you like. It's about what's true. 236 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:49,039 It's about what picture of reality is accurate to the way the world actually is. 237 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:55,039 Actually wrote a book titled The Story of Reality, making the case that 238 00:18:55,079 --> 00:19:00,359 the Christian Biblical characterization of reality is the accurate one. It's the true story. 239 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:04,920 So I think that helps explain the move. It's a good impulse. 240 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:11,079 It reflects something inside of people that God has placed there. But I want 241 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:15,920 to make sure that people find the right landing place and not just a comfortable 242 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:19,079 place better than the chaos in the world. And so we have something we 243 00:19:19,079 --> 00:19:23,839 can appeal to. We can say, there is an identity that you have, 244 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:29,279 and it's the identity God has made you with you don't have to discover 245 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:33,720 it. It's not flexible. You're a child made in the image of God, 246 00:19:33,759 --> 00:19:38,880 and this gives you infinite value. That's the final resting point upon which 247 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:42,599 you build. That's the foundation point, and that's what I want people to 248 00:19:42,599 --> 00:19:47,319 see. And of course the Street Smart's book is meant to make the case 249 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:52,799 against all of these kinds of challenges. Those other challenges are not going to 250 00:19:52,839 --> 00:19:59,200 work as smart as the ability to either perry a challenge to the Christian view 251 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:03,880 or legitimately periods not just a dodge. It's to show why it's not elicit 252 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:11,640 challenge, and or to take a foreign view like atheism, for example, 253 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:15,960 and show the problems with it, to show look at this isn't the place 254 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:19,599 you want to leend. This is not taking you anywhere good. Atheism is 255 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:25,160 the is the is the ultimate non answer. There's no answer to anything. 256 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:30,160 It's just neihalism, nothingism. You know, it's just molecules clashing in the 257 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:34,480 universe. And the best any individual can do is make up their own meaning. 258 00:20:36,279 --> 00:20:41,640 But there's no value difference between Mother Teresa and Adolf Hitler in that regard. 259 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:45,799 You know, they chose their on this view. There it's changing and 260 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:52,119 choosing their own existential moment and existential project. Okay, so you're with me 261 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:56,519 on that, but that's what we're facing and if we can if we can 262 00:20:56,759 --> 00:21:00,599 have a tool too, as I put a guard. Okay, I'm not 263 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:04,319 interested in the harvest. This sounds crazy given what I do fifty years as 264 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:08,319 a Christian, thirty years with Standard Reason Apologetics. I got books, and 265 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:11,920 I've spoken on more than ninety university campuses. I think it maybe I mentioned 266 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:14,799 that. I don't know. I've done a couple of interviews or ay today, 267 00:21:14,839 --> 00:21:17,200 so I can't remember what I said what I haven't said. But the 268 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:22,920 point is I'm just trying to get people thinking. I'm just trying to garden 269 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:26,720 in them, because without good gardening, there's not going to be a harvest. 270 00:21:26,079 --> 00:21:30,359 All right, Jesus and john Ford talked about sewing and reaping, okay, 271 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:34,160 and some stow and others reap. What I've discovered and this is not 272 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:37,920 just something I've seen, and I've been taking polls about this, you know, 273 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:44,599 with audiences recently, but I also see in the New Testament it is 274 00:21:44,799 --> 00:21:48,319 unusual. It turns out that it's unusual in people's lives. To be led 275 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:52,400 to Christ by a person who prays with them the sinner's prayer, or they 276 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:59,000 come forward at an altar call. It's unusual. Biblically, there are no 277 00:21:59,079 --> 00:22:02,200 altar calls in the New Testament. There are no times where people are told 278 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:04,599 to receive Jesus as Lord and Savior. Not against that, I'm just simply 279 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:11,160 saying it's not the biblical pattern. And when I pull people my audiences have 280 00:22:11,279 --> 00:22:15,759 been averaging about three quarters of the people in the Christian audiences that come to 281 00:22:15,799 --> 00:22:23,240 an apologetics presentation did not come to Christ by praying to receive Christ or by 282 00:22:23,279 --> 00:22:29,079 having an altar call. So there was not this. They didn't get harvested 283 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:33,279 by somebody else. The Holy Spirit harvested them individually. And in fact, 284 00:22:33,279 --> 00:22:37,599 this is what we see in the Gospels and the Book of Acts. The 285 00:22:37,599 --> 00:22:41,279 Gospel goes forth, the preaching goes forth, the word goes forth, and 286 00:22:41,319 --> 00:22:45,480 then people moved by the Holy Spirit respond to it. They begin believing in 287 00:22:45,519 --> 00:22:51,200 it, even without quote unquote receiving Christ. Again, I'm not against that 288 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:55,799 motif, but I'm just I want to release Christians from the burden of thinking 289 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:57,920 that's the way they have to do it. So if they have some gardening 290 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:02,519 tools, which we have been given. We have harvest tools, the little 291 00:23:02,519 --> 00:23:06,720 booklets, read through the simple Gospel, here's the Sinner's prayer. You know, 292 00:23:07,839 --> 00:23:10,920 that's not the only way it's done. In fact, that isn't the 293 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:14,680 way it's done in the New Testament. So what I'm giving with tactics and 294 00:23:14,839 --> 00:23:21,599 especially street smarts, is I'm giving gardening tools so Christians can do spadework in 295 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:26,519 a relaxed environment and still make a huge impact for christ I was not in 296 00:23:26,519 --> 00:23:30,880 my head somewhat vigorously when you were discussing the importance of the landing pad, 297 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:34,960 you know, for people who are exhausted by modernity and technology. And I 298 00:23:36,039 --> 00:23:41,640 was thinking of Andrew Tate actually gravitating towards his version of Islam. And I 299 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:45,480 do think we'll start seeing more and more of that. One word though, 300 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:49,400 that you just used many times, was a version of true or truth? 301 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:55,039 Yes, it sounds so obvious, you know. I think of a book 302 00:23:55,079 --> 00:23:59,079 that was really powerful for me when I was younger, especially as a journalist, 303 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:02,440 was at least strouble starting as a journalist and trying to answer the question 304 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:07,640 for a creator and coming down on the side of Christianity. But that's for 305 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:12,839 a generation that was raised to believe in the obvious importance of truth. I 306 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:17,599 never questioned, and if I did, I came down on one side of 307 00:24:17,599 --> 00:24:22,759 that question very strongly about whether there is truth or whether truth is ultimately relative, 308 00:24:22,799 --> 00:24:26,119 if there is a truth capital t truth, or whether it's relative. 309 00:24:26,279 --> 00:24:32,279 And it strikes me that must be a new challenge for people who are looking 310 00:24:32,279 --> 00:24:37,440 to ask some of these questions now, because there's a lot of my truth 311 00:24:37,559 --> 00:24:41,039 versus your truth. Your truth may be that you have a God and that 312 00:24:41,279 --> 00:24:45,240 your scripture tells you that you know abortion or marriage or whatever it is. 313 00:24:47,279 --> 00:24:51,480 That's how a lot of gen Z kind of navigates these difficult questions. And 314 00:24:51,519 --> 00:24:55,880 that's a that's a brave new world. Well, yeah, this is a 315 00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,880 obviously this notion has been around for a long time, but it is beca 316 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:03,440 really popular since the sixties. I'm going to watch the whole development because I 317 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:07,400 was a young man during the sixties and going to college and watching the counterculture 318 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:11,400 movement. And this is when Francis Shaefer made this distinction and is writing between 319 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:18,240 true truth and relativistic truth. It's not a distinction that ought to be made 320 00:25:18,839 --> 00:25:22,759 because all the word truth means, to get a simple synonym is fact. 321 00:25:23,519 --> 00:25:29,559 A truth is a fact, okay. And when we say something as a 322 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:33,680 fact, we are talking about a fact in the objective world, in the 323 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:36,960 world out there, as it were, Like gravity is a fact, all 324 00:25:37,039 --> 00:25:41,640 right, Believing gravity doesn't make it happen. If you stop believing in gravity, 325 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:45,319 you're not going to float away, okay. And so when people say 326 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:49,720 there is no truth, what's so ironic about that statement, am is that 327 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:55,440 that they are stating a truth when they say that, they are stating a 328 00:25:55,519 --> 00:25:57,920 fact. Now that almost sounds like a word trick when you say it, 329 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:03,400 because it's so simple. But one of the and I actually think this is 330 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:07,640 this is this little dialogue is in streets smarts. It's either that or tactics. 331 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,960 But my question is, when somebody says there is no truth, is 332 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:15,240 I'm trying to figure out how you want me to respond to that. I 333 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,200 mean, I think you want me to take you seriously. I think you 334 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:22,799 want me to believe you. I think you want me to think you're correct 335 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,640 on that. In other words, I think you want me to think your 336 00:26:26,079 --> 00:26:32,359 view, your statement is actually true. But the minute I am tempted to 337 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:36,319 agree with you. I realize you are not allowing me to do that. 338 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:41,240 You are telling me I can't agree with you. I can't affirm that because 339 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:45,039 there is no such thing as truth. So how am I to take your 340 00:26:45,079 --> 00:26:49,200 statement? Now? Notice there I ended my little analysis with a question, 341 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:56,079 and the question is meant to force them to think about the foolishness of the 342 00:26:56,119 --> 00:27:03,119 statement they just made. Okay, Now, just for clarification and the postmodern 343 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:07,920 influence that really hit in the early two thousands, that really hit the culture 344 00:27:07,279 --> 00:27:11,279 big time and hit the church. Okay, it's been around for a long 345 00:27:11,279 --> 00:27:15,799 time. Is this the idea that you know you can't know truth? Truth 346 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:22,400 is a narrative, it's linguistically constructed. Of course, that statement itself is 347 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:30,279 meant to be taken as an accurate characterization of how knowledge works. You can't 348 00:27:30,319 --> 00:27:33,519 avoid being self refuting in this. I call that the suicide tactic. By 349 00:27:33,559 --> 00:27:37,240 the way, you can't avoid that. Okay, However, there is a 350 00:27:37,279 --> 00:27:41,000 distinction that can be made, and this is an Enlightenment distinction. So people 351 00:27:41,039 --> 00:27:47,960 in the Enlightenment said, well, you can know things about reality, especially 352 00:27:48,039 --> 00:27:52,480 if you use the scientific approach. You can use empirical methods to test the 353 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:56,960 physical world and no physical fact. But if you're not dealing with physical fact, 354 00:27:57,079 --> 00:28:00,319 you're not even dealing with knowledge. I mean, these are the verificationists 355 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:04,519 and the the of the early twentieth century. You said, you know, 356 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:10,359 well, you can't, you can't. You can't know anything unless it's empirically 357 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:15,079 proven. Of course that statement can't be empirically proven either, and this is 358 00:28:15,079 --> 00:28:19,200 why that's largely abandoned. But the impulse is still there. And so what 359 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,599 we have is like a two tier universe now. And this Francis Shape was 360 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:26,279 great at characterizing this. Nancy Pearcy is an author nowadays that does a good 361 00:28:26,319 --> 00:28:32,519 job making this distinction osgonus as well. But that you can know certain kinds 362 00:28:32,559 --> 00:28:34,519 of things, as science teaches, but when it comes to like the so 363 00:28:34,599 --> 00:28:41,640 called immaterial world, morality, religion, soul stuff, you can't know that. 364 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:45,200 That's just unknowable. You just take a leap, you just make a 365 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:48,440 guess whatever. Well, this is patently false, and it can be demonstrated 366 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:53,160 to be false quite easily, and with the proper questions. For example, 367 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:56,880 I had a guy in a university. He was raising this particular issue, 368 00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:00,920 and I said, do you know what you're thinking right now? This is 369 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:03,519 from the audience. He's right there and he pausitive. Of course I know 370 00:29:03,559 --> 00:29:08,440 what I'm thinking. How do you know what you're thinking? Are you tasting 371 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,839 it, smelling it, touching it, feeling it, hearing it? Is 372 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:17,519 that all five? No, you have direct access to your own thoughts. 373 00:29:17,119 --> 00:29:21,519 That's how you know your thoughts. You have direct access. And there's a 374 00:29:21,519 --> 00:29:25,359 whole bunch of things in the world that we have direct access to. Okay, 375 00:29:25,599 --> 00:29:27,039 did you have coffee for breakfast yesterday? Of course they did. How 376 00:29:27,039 --> 00:29:30,240 do you know that the way pump your stomach and look at this? No, 377 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:34,839 you remember it? You were there? Okay, Well, how do 378 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:38,759 we know what happened before we were born? Somebody told us that we rely 379 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:44,400 on That's not science, that's history. That's different. They all have their 380 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,799 the strengths, and they all, all of them, even the scientific approach 381 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,240 has their weaknesses. So we as thoughtful people are kind of going through the 382 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:57,400 process of assessing the truth claims about each of these areas. The same can 383 00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:04,079 be done with morale, and the same could be done with religious claims as 384 00:30:04,119 --> 00:30:10,200 well. And so this is my project, is to help Christians be confident 385 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:15,039 that these are areas of knowledge, and that they can be shown to be 386 00:30:15,519 --> 00:30:19,680 areas of knowledge even with the other person. If you have the right game 387 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,799 plan, you're asking the right questions, and you know how to proceed. 388 00:30:26,359 --> 00:30:30,599 The Wasatchedoltom Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski. Every day Chris helps unpack the 389 00:30:30,599 --> 00:30:34,440 connection between politics and the economy and how it affects your wallet. Flashback to 390 00:30:34,559 --> 00:30:40,200 Obamacare, health insurance costs for employers are set to take their biggest jump in 391 00:30:40,279 --> 00:30:44,119 years. How does this affect you? Good luck getting a raise with inflation 392 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:48,160 still high. Don't expect to thank you card from those who got subsidized health 393 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:51,200 insurance. Whether it's happening in DC or down on Wall Street, it's affecting 394 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:53,240 you financially. Be informed. Check out the watched Altom Wall Street podcast with 395 00:30:53,319 --> 00:31:00,079 Chris Markowski on Apples, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. You 396 00:31:00,079 --> 00:31:03,920 know, it made me think that The New York Times profiled actually University of 397 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:07,599 Florida President Ben Sass, former US senator, just this last week, and 398 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:11,279 he had a quote in the interview where he said, basically he was deflecting 399 00:31:11,279 --> 00:31:15,839 I think a political question, saying I'm not especially interested in politics right now 400 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:18,640 because I think when people look back one hundred years from now on the politics 401 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:22,079 of the day, they're not or on the history of twenty twenty three. 402 00:31:22,079 --> 00:31:25,880 They're not going to be focused on the politics of the day. They're going 403 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:27,599 to be talking about some of these things that are happening. They are much 404 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,079 much bigger, even though we don't you know, if you work in politics, 405 00:31:30,119 --> 00:31:33,960 you don't really realize it. On that note or in that contact, 406 00:31:33,079 --> 00:31:41,759 I wanted to ask, actually, how the seemingly politically charged world that we 407 00:31:41,839 --> 00:31:47,640 have so many of these faith based conflicts in these days, for better or 408 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:52,359 for worse, and very often for worse, how does that affect some of 409 00:31:52,359 --> 00:31:56,440 these conversations. Meaning I imagine, you know, the type of conversation with 410 00:31:56,519 --> 00:32:01,400 somebody in a deep blue city about christ Janity is actually probably going to have 411 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:07,839 marriage, abortion, men and women looming over it, even if you know 412 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:12,680 the person, the Christian asking the questions, doesn't put it there. I 413 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:17,319 would imagine the reflex of a lot of secular liberals, urban you know type 414 00:32:17,519 --> 00:32:23,279 educated people and others throughout the country is just it is their version or their 415 00:32:23,319 --> 00:32:30,319 impression of Christianity is is heavily colored by politics and by a cultural political depiction 416 00:32:30,359 --> 00:32:35,680 of Christians. Is that true? Is that what you find how to deal 417 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,240 with that? That's a very good question you, Emily. You asked great 418 00:32:38,319 --> 00:32:45,920 questions. And I had an interview with Newsweek magazine. Oh maybe ten or 419 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:49,279 twelve years ago, was right when Katrina came through, maybe as longer than 420 00:32:49,279 --> 00:32:54,599 that now. But the question I was asked is why are you Christians only 421 00:32:55,240 --> 00:33:00,839 concerned with homosexuality and abortion? And I said to him, That's not all 422 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:05,720 we're concerned about. That's all you write about. You know, this is 423 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:09,480 very important news from a journalistic perspective of your own background. If it bleeds, 424 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:14,119 it leads, right, And if it's not bleeding, they cut it. 425 00:33:14,839 --> 00:33:16,720 If they want this to be part of their narrative, all right, 426 00:33:17,119 --> 00:33:22,720 and so they make it bleed. In other words, So during Katrina, 427 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:24,480 every church I was in, and I was in a church almost every other 428 00:33:24,519 --> 00:33:31,000 weekend, okay, they all had projects in their announcements and stuff about helping 429 00:33:31,079 --> 00:33:37,160 Katina. And where were the victims? Where were the articles about that? 430 00:33:37,119 --> 00:33:45,000 What most people think about Christianity is what they hear on the news. That's 431 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:50,119 what colors there their understanding Christianity. And so when you go into these environments, 432 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:52,720 you're going to of course that's going to be front and center for them, 433 00:33:52,720 --> 00:34:00,440 these preconceived notions of Christianity. And unfortunately sometimes Christians they're not careful to 434 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:05,880 be good ambassadors, which is a very strong ethic and stand to reason. 435 00:34:06,039 --> 00:34:10,920 We are building ambassadors. And one characteristic of a good ambassador is character okay, 436 00:34:12,679 --> 00:34:17,000 being win winsome and attractive, gracious and friendly, incisive in our thinking. 437 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:21,360 We can be strong, we can be bold, but we need to 438 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:28,400 respect people and their ideas and and and so I mean that's that's that's the 439 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:32,760 command that we have from Scripture. So when when you think about it, 440 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:37,840 people in the world they're fighting all of these things. What they don't realize 441 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:42,639 and what we're not always as equipped as we should be as followers of Jesus 442 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:49,280 of Nazareth is to show how the biblical ethic and world view view and understanding 443 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:53,400 of reality speaks to all of those kinds of things. The underlying issue, 444 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:59,159 look at the culture is a ship without a runner right now. People are 445 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:02,840 looking for something to hang onto. We have these so we have these fads 446 00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:07,000 that people went through, We went through a cutting fad, you know, 447 00:35:07,639 --> 00:35:10,719 people cutting, especially girls. Okay, and now we're going through a gender 448 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:16,760 dysphoria fad, especially girls. Why that a gendersphoria happens to two and three 449 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:22,559 year old boys. Up until just recently, that was the profile, the 450 00:35:22,599 --> 00:35:25,440 psychological profile. Something else is going on. This is a this is a 451 00:35:27,599 --> 00:35:31,280 cultural phenomena that's going on that people are laughing out on. Who knows all 452 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:35,559 that's driving it? Okay, there are spiritual forces at work too, but 453 00:35:35,639 --> 00:35:39,679 there is a hunger for something. That's the foundation. You brought this up 454 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:45,480 earlier. So part of our task is to show that we can provide that. 455 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:46,960 Let's just take the problem of evil, if I can just go there 456 00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:52,519 for a moment. Okay, this is a standard atheist objection to Christianity and 457 00:35:52,639 --> 00:35:57,639 any form of theism. And so when people ask me this dialogue, I'm 458 00:35:57,679 --> 00:36:00,920 going to share with you here or the short thing is in the Bookstreet Smarts 459 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:05,800 to show how this navigation works. Somebody says, well, what about the 460 00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:07,280 problem of evil? I said, what about it? Notice a question I 461 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:09,719 tossed back to them. Let them do their talking. Well, it's a 462 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:13,559 problem for you, isn't it. What's the problem. I want them to 463 00:36:13,599 --> 00:36:15,519 spell it out. Well, if God is good, he want to get 464 00:36:15,599 --> 00:36:20,719 rid of evil. This actually isn't true, but that's that's the way they 465 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:22,800 put it. And if He is powerfully be able to get it, but 466 00:36:23,519 --> 00:36:27,800 evil still exists, so there's no God. Say so, here's my response. 467 00:36:28,119 --> 00:36:31,920 Okay, let me ask you a question. Let's say you're right, 468 00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:38,079 there's no God. He's gone. Okay. Now those things that you just 469 00:36:38,119 --> 00:36:42,719 described to me a few moments ago, rape, torture, murder, genocide, 470 00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:45,039 et cetera, et cetera. Do they still happen. Oh? Yeah, 471 00:36:45,119 --> 00:36:49,039 of course they happen. Are they still evil in your mind? Yeah? 472 00:36:49,079 --> 00:36:52,159 They're evil. That's why I don't believe in God. Okay, Now 473 00:36:52,199 --> 00:36:57,239 you have a godless universe with a whole host of things that you call evil. 474 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:06,000 Explain to me how an atheistic worldview solves the problem of evil. You 475 00:37:06,079 --> 00:37:09,679 see, Emily, the problem of evil is not a Christian or theist's problem. 476 00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:14,119 It is a human problem. No matter where you live or when you 477 00:37:14,199 --> 00:37:16,960 lived, everyone knows that the world's broken. This is an absolute given. 478 00:37:17,159 --> 00:37:22,559 Okay. So the question is if you're going to adopt a worldview that's adequate 479 00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:27,039 to explain reality. It's got to make sense of the problem of evil. 480 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:32,559 Atheism can't make sense of the problem of evil because it has no categories even 481 00:37:32,679 --> 00:37:38,760 to make good and evil coherent. There's no external standards. There's just the 482 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:43,679 individual doing what he wants. Okay, so they can't solve it. What 483 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:47,639 about Christianity? Guess what? Evil's part of our story. Actually, our 484 00:37:47,639 --> 00:37:52,039 whole story is about the problem of evil. It starts in chapter three, 485 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:58,039 doesn't end until sixty six books later, So it's part of our story, 486 00:37:58,039 --> 00:38:00,280 and our story is not over yet. So now can you begin to see 487 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:07,280 how Christianity, the whole picture of reality properly understood, begins to speak to 488 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:14,159 the most foundational concerns that human beings have. Okay, there's just one example 489 00:38:14,159 --> 00:38:20,000 there. So this goes right to the core of one aspect of human being. 490 00:38:20,119 --> 00:38:22,239 What is right and what is wrong? And if nothing's right or wrong, 491 00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:24,800 then what do we make sense of all those things? How do we 492 00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:29,360 make sense of all those things that seem to be wrong in the universe or 493 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:32,400 the things that seemed to be right? I said Hitler and mother Teresa, 494 00:38:32,639 --> 00:38:38,800 are they actually really no different morally? Because there is a way to make 495 00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:44,079 moral distinctions. No, we know better. We know better by the way. 496 00:38:44,119 --> 00:38:49,159 There's one of those bits of knowledge that we all have that's not by 497 00:38:49,639 --> 00:38:53,280 science. Okay, it's this moral understanding that there's evil in the world. 498 00:38:53,719 --> 00:39:00,639 So where does that come from? What worldview makes sense of that feature of 499 00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:04,840 reality? That's what I'm asking And when we get when we look more closely 500 00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:08,440 at the Christian world view, we find that it speaks to all of these 501 00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:14,480 things people are struggling with. It's very robust, and the image of God 502 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:17,480 and man starts in the very first chapter of our story, becomes a foundational 503 00:39:17,519 --> 00:39:23,679 concern for human identity, human value, human obligation towards other humans, and 504 00:39:24,159 --> 00:39:30,000 human rights, because without that, there are no human rights that are inherent. 505 00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:34,760 They're just what governments give. And if governments give it, they can 506 00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:37,320 take it away. People with power can give and take, and that's all 507 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:46,559 that's left. Do you have any standout stories from your decades now of experience 508 00:39:46,599 --> 00:39:52,519 in this space. Is there any story I'm sure you have many, but 509 00:39:52,679 --> 00:40:00,119 that you might be willing to share of how this tactic of using questions has 510 00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:07,000 really maybe pulled at someone's heartstrings, change somebody's mind again. I'm sure you 511 00:40:07,079 --> 00:40:09,519 have many such stories, but is there anything you might want to share? 512 00:40:09,559 --> 00:40:12,800 You know I can. Well, what I'll do is, I'll give you 513 00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:16,760 a couple of examples, because I remember, my goal is not in the 514 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:22,000 moment to change the mind, right, I'm not looking for a conversion of 515 00:40:22,039 --> 00:40:29,480 some sort, not immediately. I'm just being a gardener. But I'll give 516 00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:32,880 you an example. That's a funny example, I think, because it's this 517 00:40:34,119 --> 00:40:37,559 is this is an anecdote. So this happened to me, and this story 518 00:40:37,639 --> 00:40:40,159 is in the book, and there's a lot of other anecdotes encounters I've had. 519 00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:47,119 But I was in Seattle doing a doing a series conference on Friday night 520 00:40:47,119 --> 00:40:50,880 all day Saturday. There are other speakers, but I worked really hard. 521 00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:53,199 I was really tired. I wake up Sunday morning and I'm off to speak 522 00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:58,280 at a church, you know, two services right now. So I'm pulling 523 00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:01,639 my rollerboard through the hotel and into the little restaurant to get my coffee. 524 00:41:01,679 --> 00:41:06,039 And one thing you probably don't know about the Emily. No you wouldn't because 525 00:41:06,079 --> 00:41:08,840 we just met, is that I'm not a morning person. Okay, I 526 00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:12,920 mean before my first cup of coffee, I'm an atheist, right, So 527 00:41:13,039 --> 00:41:15,920 you know, it's like really hard for me to get going. And so 528 00:41:15,039 --> 00:41:21,519 I'm pulling my roller bag into this hotel room and into the restaurant and I 529 00:41:21,559 --> 00:41:24,079 do not I'm just telling you, I do not want to talk about God. 530 00:41:25,199 --> 00:41:28,840 I don't want to talk about Jesus. I have conversation with waitresses, 531 00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:31,280 but not early in the morning. Leave me alone. I don't want to 532 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:36,519 witness, just you know. But the waitress comes up and she's way too 533 00:41:36,599 --> 00:41:40,159 exuberant for me for the time in the morning. Hey, how's the day, 534 00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:43,760 what's going on? What are you doing in Seattle? Whoa great? 535 00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:45,719 Oh man, I'm thinking go away, you know that kind of thing. 536 00:41:46,039 --> 00:41:49,320 And so I tell her, well, I figured this will do it. 537 00:41:49,559 --> 00:41:53,039 I told her I'm going to preach in a church. Oh that's good, 538 00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:58,639 she says. And I'm thinking, what's good about that? Well, that's 539 00:41:58,639 --> 00:42:00,639 why I asked. I said, maybe she's a Christian. I'm thinking, 540 00:42:00,679 --> 00:42:04,679 are you a Christian? No? I used to be, but I'm not 541 00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:07,519 a Christian now. The universe takes care of me. That's what she said. 542 00:42:07,679 --> 00:42:12,599 Okay, And I'm thinking, huh, what does that mean? But 543 00:42:12,639 --> 00:42:15,800 I just said to her, what does that mean, how does the universe 544 00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:19,760 a person? And notice, I'm just curious now, But one thing you 545 00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:22,639 don't know is in the tactics game plan, the very first step is to 546 00:42:22,639 --> 00:42:25,239 gather information with some form of the question what do you mean by that? 547 00:42:25,639 --> 00:42:30,480 Just to get clarification. So I'm not witnessing because I don't want a witness. 548 00:42:30,559 --> 00:42:32,360 I don't want to talk about God or Jesus. But even so, 549 00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:37,480 my inner Columbo is already coming out a little bit because I don't understand what 550 00:42:37,559 --> 00:42:40,039 she's getting at. And she said no, no. I asked her as 551 00:42:40,039 --> 00:42:43,840 the universe as a person. She says, no, it's not a person. 552 00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:45,119 Well, then how can the universe take care of you if it's not 553 00:42:45,159 --> 00:42:49,360 a person? Oh? And she stops am and thinks about that. He 554 00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:52,320 said, okay, I guess God takes care of me. And then I 555 00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:54,920 said, oh, okay, that makes sense. Then God is the universe 556 00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:59,719 And I said, oh, what do you mean? God is the universe? 557 00:43:00,199 --> 00:43:02,559 And so we're back and forth. I'm just trying to make sense out 558 00:43:02,599 --> 00:43:06,400 of what she's saying, asking these questions of clarification. I'm not trying to 559 00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:08,079 put her down, not trying to prove her wrong, but she's kind of 560 00:43:08,119 --> 00:43:14,039 a New age type person. Finally she goes away and brings my coffee in 561 00:43:14,039 --> 00:43:15,880 my scrambled eggs, whatever it is. And then when she brings her check, 562 00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:21,920 here's what she says to me. Nobody has ever asked me questions about 563 00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:28,840 my view before, and it got me thinking, how mine drop? Right, 564 00:43:29,159 --> 00:43:32,239 That's all I'm after when I'm trying that I wasn't trying. I was 565 00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:38,559 trying not to try, but still God used that circumstance, just that kind 566 00:43:38,559 --> 00:43:45,079 of innocent opportunity, not even innocent, I mean I was. I wasn't 567 00:43:45,119 --> 00:43:46,639 trying. I was trying to get rid of her, you know, but 568 00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:51,559 still, what are you talking about? And by just drawing her out, 569 00:43:51,599 --> 00:43:53,199 Now, this isn't you know, at the end of the world that isn't 570 00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:57,000 like and she became a Christian. I dropped to her nas and I don't 571 00:43:57,039 --> 00:44:00,360 know whatever happened to her. I actually gave her a copy of the book 572 00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:02,119 The Story of Reality was. She was very glad to receive and I signed 573 00:44:02,119 --> 00:44:05,679 it, you know, and all that, so I'm hoping she'll read it. 574 00:44:06,039 --> 00:44:10,119 But the point I'm making there is all I was doing was almost reflexively 575 00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:14,920 employing the game plan in a non intrusive way, trying to find out more 576 00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:21,000 about her view, and God still used that to get her thinking about her 577 00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:23,400 own view. Now there's just one example, all right. I also want 578 00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:28,880 to mention one other example that's more over a period of time. Okay, 579 00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:31,480 I'm not sure what your exposure is to other apologists, Emily, but have 580 00:44:31,559 --> 00:44:36,920 you heard of a guy named Jay Warner Wallace. Jay Warner Wallace, So 581 00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:39,119 he wrote a best selling book called Cold Case Christianity. In fact, it's 582 00:44:40,679 --> 00:44:45,800 okay, that's Jim Okay. He was a cold case detective in Towrents, 583 00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:47,599 p d and Elle County for many, many years. He never he was 584 00:44:47,639 --> 00:44:52,800 amazing. He never lost a case that went to trial, you know, 585 00:44:52,199 --> 00:44:58,159 resurrecting these murders that people committed twenty or thirty years ago and finding the bad 586 00:44:58,199 --> 00:45:00,159 guy. He was good. Okay, four of his shows were on TV, 587 00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:05,119 you know, on the Dayline or whatever that is. But he was 588 00:45:05,159 --> 00:45:09,440 an atheist. He was hardcore atheist. And then somebody challenged him to think 589 00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:12,800 about Jesus and he said, Okay, I'm a detective. I know how 590 00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:15,000 I witness testimony works, I know evidence works. I'm going to go and 591 00:45:15,039 --> 00:45:19,559 I'm going to apply it to the New Testament documents and lo and behold. 592 00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:22,440 After a lot of search, and this is similar to least struggle with journalism. 593 00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:27,079 After a lot of a lot of research, he came to the conclusion 594 00:45:27,119 --> 00:45:31,960 that the testimony was reliable in the New Testament documents, particularly the Gospels, 595 00:45:32,119 --> 00:45:35,719 and that Jesus rose in the dead. And he became a Christian. And 596 00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:38,760 then he wrote a book called Cold Case Christianity, which became a best seller. 597 00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:45,480 And he has absolutely, hands down the best communicator that on Christian apologetics 598 00:45:45,519 --> 00:45:47,760 I've ever met. Okay, here's what you don't know about Jim Wallace. 599 00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:52,360 By the way, he's a very close friend of mine. Here's what you 600 00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:55,480 don't know, Jay Warner. Wallace was in my garden when he was an 601 00:45:55,480 --> 00:46:00,639 atheist. He was listening to my radio show. He was interacting with my 602 00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:06,559 ideas, you know in abstentia. You know, it's like he wasn't calling 603 00:46:06,559 --> 00:46:12,159 me, he was listening. And then as he after he as he moved 604 00:46:12,199 --> 00:46:15,800 forward in his Christian life as a new Christian, he kept using the standardis 605 00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:17,880 and stuff. Now, I'm not trying to wave standardisons flag. That's not 606 00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:24,000 the point The point is garden. He was all I was doing. But 607 00:46:24,119 --> 00:46:31,960 gardening was was was a central my garden, and Jim's life was a central 608 00:46:32,079 --> 00:46:38,039 factor in moving him forward to his decision for Christ. And Abdu Murray, 609 00:46:38,079 --> 00:46:42,800 the Muslim who became a Christian and then a Christian apologist, written a number 610 00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:45,320 of books. He was in my garden too. He's a very well known 611 00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:50,119 Christian apologist. John Noyce who was on our team as a Christian speaker. 612 00:46:50,199 --> 00:46:52,679 He was in my garden when he was an atheist, then he became a 613 00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:54,159 Christian. He doesn't even know when he became a Christian. Then I met 614 00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:58,960 him, and then he's joined the team at standard reason as a speaker. 615 00:46:59,199 --> 00:47:06,440 These are just three people I know personally and closely now that were that became 616 00:47:06,599 --> 00:47:09,880 Christians, and they will tell you that the gardening I did in life was 617 00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:15,559 a vital element of their journey. I didn't harvest them. Somebody went into 618 00:47:15,639 --> 00:47:22,800 my garden picked my frew right. But Jesus said that the one who sows 619 00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:28,400 and the one who reaps can rejoice together as John chapter four. So there, 620 00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:30,280 I mean, you know, we're living in a time here. But 621 00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:36,480 there's a couple of cases an anecdote of me just almost unwillingly being pulled forward 622 00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:39,599 and God using that with the waitress in Seattle, and then the long term 623 00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:45,199 excuse me effective here three people, and I have many other people that have 624 00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:49,880 told me that one I've shared those stories publicly, that they've been in my 625 00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:57,159 garden and then God brought them eventually to christ is so powerful. The book 626 00:47:57,199 --> 00:48:04,639 again is called Street Smarts, Using Questions to answer Christianity's Toughest Questions. Gregory 627 00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:08,000 Kocol thank you so much for joining the program and talking about all of your 628 00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:12,519 work in this space. Well, Emily, anytime you want to chat, 629 00:48:12,559 --> 00:48:15,800 I'm at your service. I really enjoyed our time together, really appreciate it. 630 00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:20,320 You've been listening to another edition of The Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily 631 00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:22,679 Joshinsky, culture editor here at the Federalist. We'll be back soon with more. 632 00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:34,760 Until then, be lovers of freedom and anxious for the frame. Heard 633 00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:40,039 the fame and reason, and then it faded away.