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Hello, and welcome to over Mind
UFO Radio. I am your host,

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Alejandro Rojas, and I am not
joined by Martin rolling Stone Willis because he

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is on the road and for some
reason we can't get the connection working.

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He was going to talk to us, and actually he did for a little

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while, but something happened and it
became a mess, unfortunately. But he

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says hi to everybody, and I'll
mention some of the things he might.

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Well, he did tell me about
Art Bell. Art Bell is on the

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air, so he Martin's show podcast
UFO is on the Dark Matters digital network,

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which is created essentially to host Art
Bell when he came back on the

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air, and so Art Bell is
back, Dark Matters is friends of ours.

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They replay our show. In fact, I think we were kind of

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a placeholder in the spot where Art
Bell was going to be. So hopefully

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they'll keep playing us, because it's
nice to be affiliated with that network.

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But if not, a you can
always come to Open Minds not TV to

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hear it. But Martin says he
listened and that the sound quality was incredible.

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So Keith, their engineer. I
had spoken with him and he said

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they were using some new technology and
I think this was in my art Bell

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story about how they were using some
new technology, and I guess it sounded

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crystal clear. They had some tests
with people all over the country, so

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last night was like a test show, and then the real show starts tonight.

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So Martin said that. He also
mentioned that I guess they got somehow

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a ad or a mention in Times
Square, So that's kind of crazy,

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kind of cool. Somebody must be
an art Bell fan there that handles that.

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It looked like it was a PR
Newswire kind of release scrolling thing,

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so that's kind of cool. So
that's great. Otherwise, I guess i'll

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tell you you get about our guest. Our guest is really cool. Tonight

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it is Kurt Collins, and we'll
talk to Kurt about how he got into

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UFOs. But what's great about Kurt
is that he's a very careful researcher and

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a bit of a skeptic, I
mean in a lot of cases. But

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he'll talk about why he got interested
into UFO research. He was part of

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the Roswell Research or Roswell's research group, so I probably mentioned his name several

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times when we talked about the Roswell
slides. But we will talk a little

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bit about that, but not too
much. We're going to talk more about

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another case that he's gotten into.
In fact, he started a website and

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really got involved when he was investigating
the cash Landrum UFO siding. This is

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a really cool sighting that took place
many years ago where three people, two

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women and a young man, who
came across this UFO on a remote road

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in Texas and this thing like burned
them. It somehow created these physiological effects

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that they had. They got sick, really terrible, their caur got extremely

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hot. We'll talk about some of
the strangeness that then floated away above and

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flew off, but there were a
bunch of helicopters supposedly following it, and

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this whole thing is extremely mysterious.
So we're going to talk to Kurt about

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that and his research, which is
really great. In fact, he created

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a website called Blue Blurry Lines where
he has all of this research and he's

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got a lot of great stuff on
his website. So we're going to talk

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about him. I'm really excited to
talk about him, and like I thought,

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you know, the interview turned out
really great, so I think you

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guys are going to enjoy this,
But first talking about UFO news. So

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UFO's in the news. I finally
wrote up my story on these Arctic UFO

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pictures. You might have seen these
images and they have gotten all over the

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news, especially in the UK.
Like I said before, you know,

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we talked about this last week.
But the UK it's really into UFOs and

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they have a lot of UFO stories
and this is one that they had quite

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a bit of information about. So
what happened is this guy named Alex mus

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Stretta found these pictures, he says, from he got him from anonymous European

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source. Then someone told him that
these pictures were also posted in a French

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magazine called Top Secret. He did
say he went and looked and said,

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yeah, indeed they are the same
pictures. He then asked Greenwald and wrote

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to Greenwald John Greenwald of the Black
Vault dot com and said will you post

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these pictures? And he hoped that
Greenwald and others could help him find more

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about the images. He also wrote
what he knew about them. He says

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that his anonymous source told him that
the photos were taken from a United States

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Navy submarine. The location was between
Iceland, and jan Mayan Island in the

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Atlantic Ocean. Jan Mayan, I
guess belongs to Norway, but we have

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a map here you'll see it's close
to the Antarctic and you know, out

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there in the middle of nowhere,
all by itself. But this was supposedly

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in March of nineteen seventy one when
these they took these pictures. The navy

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sub was the USS Tripeng. There
was an admiral on board, he says,

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called Dean Reynolds Sackett, and another
officer, John Kilka, who supposedly

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was a guy who spotted these UFOs
in the periscope. Greenwald looked into it

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and he found that indeed the Trappeng
was in that area in March nineteen seventy

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one, that Sackett and Kilco were
also on board. So the beginning of

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the end this investigation looked really good. So what they wanted to do is

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get a hold of Sacket and Kilka. They enlisted the help of Steve Marillo,

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and this is a guy who runs
the UFO and Paranormal Research Society in

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Los Angeles, so he used to
hold the be in charch of the MOUF

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on meetings out in Los Angeles before
Denise Marcel. We found that out,

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you know recently when we interviewed Denise. But now he wanted to expand the

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group into more paranormal so he has
this meetup about paranormal stuff. The reason

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they contacted him is that he's a
former Navy pilot. Well, Marilla was

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able to get contact information for Sacket
and Kilka. Marilla contacted Sacket, and

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Mistretta contacted Kilka and the guy said, yeah, we were in the Tripang

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at that time in that area,
just like John Greenwald had found. But

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they said we did not see anything
strange, nor to their knowledge, did

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anybody else see anything strange. So
they said it's not true that Kilka saw

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these things and took pictures of them. They thought the pictures were strange and

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didn't know what were in the pictures, but it wasn't them. So Mistretta

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says he's convinced that they were telling
the truth, and he says now that

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he's confident in saying that the Tripang
was not involved with these photographs. So

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that's kind of a bummer that,
you know, that part did not pay

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mo Ounta and some of the information
that came with the photos is not accurate.

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John Greenwall did some more searching because
he felt that the images in the

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photos kind of looked like zeppelins,
and he found that in the early nineteen

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hundred, indeed, they did use
these large balloons, the Navy did,

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and he found images. I also
found an image where there was a large

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kind of cigar shaped balloon, but
also kind of a weirder kind of V

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shaped one, which we do see
in these images. So really it seems

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like these balloons are what's in the
images. But the images are really good.

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They're definitely from a periscope, you
can tell that, and it looks

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like they're using these things for target
practice and they're firing on them. Whether

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or not these pictures were from the
early nineteen hundreds or nineteen seventies, it's

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hard to say they are. And
you know, they're great pictures. They're

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in color. I guess it's possible
they were colorized, but to take a

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picture and look, so the question
is are they a complete hoax? You

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know, is or what's going on
with these pictures? And they're still looking

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into them. In fact, Mastretta
is gonna speak tomorrow at Marillo's Paranormal Group

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to talk more about this in Los
Angeles and at open mindsat TV and our

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story on this. I have a
link to his meetup, so if you

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want to go and you're in the
LA area, you can find out more

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information at openminds dot TV. What
else I wrote about this, and Greenwald

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agrees, is that what's disappointing is
that the media coverage has not included the

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investigation. All it says is that
here's some great pictures they supposedly come from

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the navy. Is this proof of
aliens? You know, real sensationalistic type

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of information and headlines, And it's
unfortunate because I think the real story here

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is a great investigation that was done
by Mistretta and Greenwald and Marilla, and

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it demonstrates that UFO researchers are not
just a bunch of goofballs. A lot

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of them are careful researchers looking for
the truth. So I think it's frustrating

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that the news stories about this did
not cover that those dirty, rotten scoundrels.

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No, they just I think that
the media, as we've talked about

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before, should do their due diligence
around this. So we've talked about it

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before. In fact, last week, we talked about the Welsh government talking

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about kleing, you know, answering
a UFO question and cling on and the

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media covering that and you know it
allows them to kind of make fun of

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everything. And in fact, Nick
Pope had tweeted that, you know,

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this was the sort of tactics he
used when he worked for the UK government

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looking for UFOs. And we interviewed
Nick Pope about this, and you can

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see that interview on the open Minds
TV utube page. You can also see

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this at open Mind and this is
on our latest UFO report, the open

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Mind UFO Report videos that we do
we try to do weekly and we posted

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one Friday with an interview with Nick
Pope talking about how you know, he

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made fun of UFOs and not because
they felt the whole subject was ridiculous.

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On the contrary, he says that
they felt, you know, that this

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topic was very important. So it's
a great interview we got. You can

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even see Nick Pope speaking some klingon
in another story. I think this is

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a great one too. This is
some Turkish pilots who saw UFOs. So

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a Turkish paper called Sabah wrote a
story about these two pilots that say they

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believe in UFOs, and they say
the reason why is because they've seen UFOs.

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So one of these pilots talks about
a flight he made from Osaka to

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Istanbul, and he says along the
way they saw this bright light and that

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this brite was so incredibly intense they
couldn't look at it directly, and that

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there were other pilots that saw this
as well, and because of this sighting,

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that's why he believes in the UFOs. They said they did talk to

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the tower, and the tower said
it didn't know what it was that they

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had seen, or along those lines. I must admit that I had to

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use Google Translate because I often,
you know, you guys know this.

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I will look at international stories and
use Google Translate to find some more UFO

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stories like this one a great one, but you know, I'm sure a

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lot is lost in translation. Another
pilot in a story, he says in

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October of nineteen eighty nine, he
was flying from Zurich to the Turkish town

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of Antalia when he saw he said, he was over Yugoslavian airspace. They

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saw some weird objects at about two
thousand meters, that it was a light

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cluster that was several different colors.
He said the primary colors, so I'm

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assuming he means red, yellow,
and blue. He said they were larger

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than a normal plane than They called
the Istanbul Tower and they said they didn't

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see it on radar. Then the
multicolor lights rose to forty four thousand feet,

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turned into a white ball of light
and then disappeared. So another really

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interesting sighting. And what's just cool
about these sightings is, you know,

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pilots are up in the sky on
a regular basis, looking at stuff,

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seeing the night skies, seeing the
skies. So that's why I think it's

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important when pilots see something. You
know, they're more used to watching the

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sky, so I think that they
their testimony when it comes to UFO reports

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is important. Someone who disagrees isn't. A man by the name of Jim

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Oberg, and he writes for space
dot com. You see his stories on

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MSNBC, and he writes for a
lot of places on space. He's a

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space expert journalist. He's been in
the business for decades. A bit of

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a UFO skeptic, but what's great
is he's into the topic and he reads

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our stories and others, he commented, he said, he said, and

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your reason for thinking this story was
significant, without pride providing a daytime or

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location of it, was what exactly, especially on an air route passing close

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to the Baccanor Cosmodrome. Well,
mister Oberg, I think it's obvious,

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I said, I responded, and
I said, I think it's it's obvious

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to our readers, and I'm sure
it is to you as well, that

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reports from pilots are really interesting.
Of course, we don't always have all

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the data, so we can go
back and research and do this, you

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know, thorough investigation. A lot
of times most UFO stories are anecdotal,

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but still these are pilots, so
I think it's important. I think it's

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certainly worth noting and sharing what these
people discovered. Obviously, the Turkish News

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felt that way, and so did
I. He does make a good point,

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and he could have made this point
without sounding like such a grouch.

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I've told him before you often sound
kind of grouchy, Jym. But his

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point is that the route from Asia
to Turkey would take you past Koztstan,

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and in Kosetstan is the backa Noor
Cosmodrome. And this Cosmodrome is where they

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the Russians launch a lot of rockets, so I assume he is suggesting that

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it could be rockets that these pilots
had seen. Now, knowing pilots myself,

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typically they fly the same route route
uh, day in and day out,

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you know, those routes change,
but they'll they'll fly the same route

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for a long time. And these
pilots are probably used to flying past the

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Cosmodrome or in the vicinity, and
I would assume that they've seen rocket launches

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before, so they wouldn't confuse them
with that, especially over all of these

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years. However, it's a possibility, so mister Oberg certainly makes a good

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point. It's worth pointing out that
the cos you know, the Cosmodrome is

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somewhat you know, on that route, So thank you for pointing that out,

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mister Oberg, if you did do
it in such a kind of a

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snippy manner. But he's a grouchy
old guy. You know, that's old

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guys. I hope you know old
guys. That makes me think I kind

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of think that old guys kind of
come into two gat categories. They're either

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really grouchy or really silly like and
they'll they use puns and for a man,

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and I think a lot of you
goofy guys out there, I'm a

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goofy guy. I don't think anybody
would disagree with that. And the older

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you get, the more you start
using puns and laughing at puns and liking

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puns and becoming punny. So old
men are punny. So I think this

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is something that us guys should think
of well as we age, is what

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kind of man are we going to
turn into? Are we going to be

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one of these gratchy old guys who
is just a stupid kids? Get out

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of my way. You know you've
ran into these guys, you know what

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I'm talking about. Or we're gonna
be the silly old guy. And everybody

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loves the silly old guy. And
that's what I want to be. That's

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really when it comes down to it. When I grow up, I want

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to be one of the silly,
funny old guys. So I think I'm

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headed in that direction. But this
field can be so contentious and some of

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you, some of you people listening
quite frankly right now, can be such

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jerkys when you comment, and you
know, so the people who comment on

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social media can be so mean that
I may just get completely cynical and into

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one of those grouchy old guys.
But then again, the vast, vast

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majority of the listeners are really cool
people like you all listening right now,

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and who come up and say hi
at conferences and will send us a nice

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note occasionally, and you're the ones
that I love to death, and you're

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you're my salvation. You're the reason
that I'm probably going to be the goofy

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guy. So we got way off
on a tangent. But being that the

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UFO field, especially when it comes
to reachers, researchers and stuff, is

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so full of old guys, I
think that that topic somewhat pertains still.

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But let's go ahead and talk to
a younger guy. He's not so much

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old. Kirk Collins, our interviewee, and speaking of someone who's headed to

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old guy in that direction is Martin
Willis, who unfortunately we had problems and

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couldn't connect, but thank you anyway, Martin. And of course he has

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catch UFO. He's actually driving and
he's near New York City and he's driving

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to go visit Ray Stanford, who's
going to be the guy He's going to

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interview on Wednesday, so you could
check that out on the Art Belt Dark

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Matters Network on Wednesday. So that's
what's going down people. That's the news,

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the UFO news. You can find
more at Openminds dot tv. But

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without further ado, let's speak with
Kirk Collins. I am very excited.

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I know, and I always make
fun of myself. I always say I'm

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so very excited to have someone on
the show, and I was excited last

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week, I was excited the week
before, and I'm excited this week to

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have Kurt Collins on the show.
Hello, Kurt, Hello, I was

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wondering just as far as titles go. You know, it seems in the

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past you've talked about how you haven't
been in this long, but I think

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of you as a UFO researcher.
Would you mind if I called you that?

239
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No, that's a that's as good
a title as any. Yeah,

240
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let's do that. Great, because
really you are I think so. But

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let's get into kind of how you
got involved with this stuff, and and

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for people who don't know about you
and your workout, they're going to learn

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a lot more about that. I've
mentioned you on the show several times before,

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especially in regards to the Roswell slides. But yeah, we'll get into

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all of this to begin with.
I guess let's talk about when you did

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start, you know, diving into
all of this and what inspired that.

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Well, there was an initial childhood
interest in UFOs and all sorts of mysterious

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things. There's there. You know, I grew up in the UH in

249
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the sixties, and there were a
lot of things happening, you know,

250
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and I wasn't aware of, like
the the Condon comedee in Blue Book shutting

251
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down those sort of things. But
that like the and and some of the

252
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things also in the seventies, like
you know, certainly the news coverage of

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the Travis Walton case and and here
in Mississippi the Pasca Google abduction case.

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That was you know, that was
huge news locally and in nationally as well.

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So there were there were a lot
of things and and other mysteries,

256
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you know, from Jack to Repper, Bigfoot, all sorts of paranormal things

257
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were really big in the seventies and
you couldn't avoid it. And but the

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UFO interests kind of stuck with me
all my life. Mm hmmm. So

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I know you're you're which I appreciate
very skeptical. You take a skeptical approach

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to all of this, and and
you know someone else that does that that

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you know, listeners would be familiar
with her. It's Mark D'Antonio. And

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if you didn't know better, you
would think there was no UFO case that

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Mark D'Antonio believes. But of course
he's very into all of this. Now,

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do you believe there is a gene
phenomenon? I do, yes,

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I think so. Now I can't
I can't define it. I think there's

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there's Unfortunately, there is a lot
of fakery and fraud and and and that

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that really confuses the issue. I
mean, it's almost like it's you know

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that, well, we know there's
serial video hoaxers out there, and there

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have been people that you know,
claim to have served on Mars and and

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all sorts of wild things outlandish,
and there's not a shred of evidence for

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But there there are enough genuine cases, you know, even like the Blue

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Book report. Uh, the the
reports themselves are really interesting. I don't

273
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always agree with the analysis. Sometimes
they're just really quick to explain things away,

274
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But the reports themselves were made by
credible observers and in some cases you've

275
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got radar and and in rare cases
photographs to examine. But you know there's

276
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something, there's something to this,
you know, even I'm even interested in

277
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the psychological aspect of Sometimes the the
things that can be a dead five,

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they can still have a big effect
on people. Mm hmm, right,

279
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I agree. So, I guess
when I first started noticing your work was

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when you started posting in the UFO
Updates UH forum. I guess it used

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to be it was online and now
it's in Facebook. It's not its own

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page, but uh, and you
started posting a lot about the cash lantern

283
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case for which and I believe that
is what inspired you to put up your

284
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website Blueberry Lines. Is that correct? That's right? And to back it

285
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up a little bit. I became
interested in in the UFO is more well.

286
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Renewed my interest really in about twenty
eleven, and I'd seen this film

287
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that was a documentary on Gray Barker, and he was really interesting because he

288
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seemed to have a genuine interest in
UFOs, but he was also involved in

289
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a number of UFO hoaxes. And
in the film, his friend and collaborator

290
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James Moseley was featured and he published
Saucers Smear, and I said, well,

291
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you know, I couldn't get in
touch with Gray Barker and find that

292
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much about him, but Jim Moseley
seemed to be pretty accessible. So I

293
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started writing to him, and you
know, to my surprise, he gave

294
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me a phone call back instead of
returning my letter. And I got to

295
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be you know, eventually got to
be friends with him, well pen pals

296
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and phone piles, and he just
had just had a wealth of information.

297
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He just knew about knew just about
everyone in the field, and had all

298
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this experience and had done his own
personal investigations. And that's eventually he was

299
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writing a story on the cash Lander
case and he asked me to dig up

300
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some background material and that's where I
initially became involved in the case. Oh

301
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I see, that's really interesting and
I love this this stuff. I mean,

302
00:25:17.119 --> 00:25:21.680
James Moseley. Sausag smeare for people
who don't know and practically nobody.

303
00:25:21.799 --> 00:25:26.240
In fact, there will be a
very small, small I would guess maybe

304
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even one or two people listening to
this show who even got this sausage smear,

305
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But you can find some online.
But it was such a fun paper.

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It was one of those kind of
guilty pleasures because Jim Moseley was very

307
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satirical. He was very he would
make fun of things, but he had

308
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a genuine interest. He was also
skeptical and it was kind of like a

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gossip rag, you know, and
that we all people in the field,

310
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especially because that's who he was talking
about, liked to read it, or

311
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some of us, even though you
never knew when you were going to be,

312
00:26:00.720 --> 00:26:06.839
you know, the focus of some
some smear. Even luckily I had

313
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some minors stuff, but I wasn't
really bashed too much in any of it.

314
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But James was a great fun guy. I interviewed him. Unfortunately passed

315
00:26:15.480 --> 00:26:22.000
away, but there's only a few
hundred people that got that paper newsletter that

316
00:26:22.119 --> 00:26:25.400
he would send out. And like
you said, he was friends with his

317
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great Barker. Now, I've always
been more skeptical of Grey Barker because of

318
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the hoaxes he was involved with,
even though mostly was kind of his partner.

319
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I know, Grey Barker and James
even said, kind of ran a

320
00:26:37.039 --> 00:26:41.200
little more wild with those hoaxes.
Does that give you pause? Those hoaxes?

321
00:26:42.039 --> 00:26:48.680
What do you think of that aspect
of Grey Barker. It's I think

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00:26:48.680 --> 00:26:53.920
it's well, I find it fascinating. I'm interested in UFO hoaxes and the

323
00:26:53.960 --> 00:26:57.960
psychology behind it, and you know, it's there. People do that for

324
00:26:59.319 --> 00:27:02.359
a number of different reasons. One, you know, some are some almost

325
00:27:02.440 --> 00:27:06.599
like uh uh, like arsonists.
You know, these guys set fires and

326
00:27:06.640 --> 00:27:08.799
then enjoy watching, you know,
how it plays out, and this is

327
00:27:08.799 --> 00:27:12.079
a little less destructive than that.
And other people you on their jokers.

328
00:27:12.400 --> 00:27:18.640
And then there's obviously some people in
it for financial return and the you know

329
00:27:18.680 --> 00:27:26.119
people talk about And I talked to
Jim mostly about it and his he seemed

330
00:27:26.119 --> 00:27:33.480
to agree that the the reputation that
that Barker had as a hoaxhere with its

331
00:27:33.480 --> 00:27:38.519
a little overstated, because really what
he did was he mostly well I don't

332
00:27:38.519 --> 00:27:42.480
know if I want to say repackaged
exactly, but he tended to take take

333
00:27:42.599 --> 00:27:45.039
stories and a lot of a lot
of them were from the from the early

334
00:27:45.119 --> 00:27:51.920
contact ease, and he would he
would publish them. But he also added

335
00:27:52.480 --> 00:27:56.400
literary flourishes and some dramatic touches.
And you know, I don't think that

336
00:27:56.480 --> 00:28:03.680
he fabricated in most cases, but
there were other cases in his magazine where

337
00:28:03.759 --> 00:28:12.559
there were stories that were just totally
totally fiction, but his there's no doubt

338
00:28:12.640 --> 00:28:15.000
though that there were there were some
things that were, you know, just

339
00:28:15.680 --> 00:28:19.480
totally created. And I think the
well he was also a prankster too,

340
00:28:19.519 --> 00:28:26.599
That's something we've got to think about
that together. Jim, honestly and uh

341
00:28:26.079 --> 00:28:30.759
and Gray Barker played pranks on John
Keel and both the phone pranks and and

342
00:28:30.799 --> 00:28:34.359
things like that, and the the
the story. But the Men in Black

343
00:28:36.039 --> 00:28:41.200
they sort of perpetuated that. And
there were other we associated things and the

344
00:28:41.200 --> 00:28:44.359
Men in Black that we don't think
so much about now, like doppelgangers.

345
00:28:44.400 --> 00:28:47.279
They would there would be claims if, oh, well, it look like

346
00:28:47.359 --> 00:28:49.759
a Jim Mosley appeared here, well
a lot of times it was really Jim

347
00:28:49.799 --> 00:28:53.799
Moseley, uh, playing a prank
on a friend, and yet it might

348
00:28:53.799 --> 00:28:57.480
get written up as if it was
some paranormal event. So there were a

349
00:28:57.519 --> 00:29:03.799
lot of things that that sort of
stemmed out of just well, oh,

350
00:29:03.880 --> 00:29:08.359
really really pranks, and some of
it just launched in the UFO. Ar

351
00:29:08.839 --> 00:29:12.160
mm hmm. Yeah. We'll get
more into this, I guess a little

352
00:29:12.279 --> 00:29:17.400
later, but I guess some of
what they did too, and I think

353
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it concerned you. It concerns a
lot of people in the UFO updates for

354
00:29:21.200 --> 00:29:26.599
them, especially with recent events,
which we'll get into. A lot of

355
00:29:26.599 --> 00:29:30.079
these pranks they pulled were to show
how a lot of researchers and I think

356
00:29:30.079 --> 00:29:36.480
they felt Keel was one of these
were just too gullible, that's true.

357
00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:42.000
And oh almost forgot one of the
things that Eventually, after Jim Dodd,

358
00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:48.960
Gene Steinberger, the Percat set up
a Jim Moseley memorial site jimoseley dot com,

359
00:29:48.359 --> 00:29:52.240
and it was really just a placeholder, and so I said, well,

360
00:29:52.279 --> 00:29:55.960
you know, I can put some
content on it. So I've got

361
00:29:56.039 --> 00:30:00.440
I've wounded up putting a number of
my articles and some guests articles, and

362
00:30:00.599 --> 00:30:06.680
a lot of photographs and news clippings
on Jim Moseley, so you can find

363
00:30:06.680 --> 00:30:10.599
out a lot about him, including
some of the pranks and a few of

364
00:30:10.640 --> 00:30:12.039
the hoaxes that were that were put
in. And I'm trying to be,

365
00:30:12.480 --> 00:30:22.759
you know, to give that honest
coverage and the I guess some of them,

366
00:30:22.920 --> 00:30:26.119
well they were definitely not scientific.
The only thing I can say is,

367
00:30:26.200 --> 00:30:30.240
you know, there was some useful
mischief going on there, and the

368
00:30:30.680 --> 00:30:37.640
Jim Moseley's take on things and his
you it was not nearly as as serious

369
00:30:37.720 --> 00:30:40.920
as as if he were a scientist. You know. He came into it

370
00:30:40.960 --> 00:30:44.960
as kind of an amateur journalist,
and over timing he matured and really took

371
00:30:45.559 --> 00:30:48.319
a more serious outlook on the topic. But as far as the personalities,

372
00:30:48.319 --> 00:30:52.920
he always had the humorous outlook on
that, and he could give it as

373
00:30:53.039 --> 00:30:57.160
much as he could take it.
I think he appreciated I think truthfulness.

374
00:30:57.440 --> 00:31:02.000
Even though he hoaxed and pranked,
you know, they were willing or at

375
00:31:02.079 --> 00:31:06.160
least he was willing to admit to
that, because that was the whole point

376
00:31:06.200 --> 00:31:11.160
to say, Hi, we tricked
you sort of thing. Uh. And

377
00:31:11.240 --> 00:31:15.960
even though he would bash people for
things, he uh certainly was willing to

378
00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:23.079
take criticism as well. His He
also did a number of legitimate investigations,

379
00:31:23.119 --> 00:31:32.319
and he helped expose the the Georgia
Damski fraud, and he contacted other people

380
00:31:32.400 --> 00:31:40.599
and Damski published photographs claiming that the
the the ship that he had seen was

381
00:31:41.000 --> 00:31:45.279
photographed by another person. Well really
he had just credited to the other person

382
00:31:45.799 --> 00:31:51.519
and and wanted, you know,
to add corroboration, and he just he

383
00:31:52.160 --> 00:31:59.799
really inflated things far beyond the uh
anything that might have actually happened, and

384
00:32:00.359 --> 00:32:06.759
just just and and also you know
he called himself professor, which he had

385
00:32:06.799 --> 00:32:10.680
no right to do. That was
informal thing he represented himself. He was

386
00:32:10.720 --> 00:32:16.160
basically a frock hook at a Hamburger
stand on Mount Palomore, but using the

387
00:32:16.200 --> 00:32:22.079
name professor. And then there's the
observatory Mount Palomore. Someone who didn't know

388
00:32:22.240 --> 00:32:25.400
is going to assume that he has
he's a scientific professor and he's part of

389
00:32:25.400 --> 00:32:31.279
the observatory. And so this was
you know, he exposed that, and

390
00:32:31.440 --> 00:32:35.960
you know it was almost a leader
of a small cult, and it was

391
00:32:36.079 --> 00:32:39.519
quite different from the way he represented
himself. And just for listeners who don't

392
00:32:39.519 --> 00:32:45.480
know, Georgia Damski was really famous
California guy, a alleged contact. He

393
00:32:45.720 --> 00:32:52.279
probably the most famous of that movement
that happened like in the fifties. And

394
00:32:52.720 --> 00:32:55.720
the pictures of his UFOs are are
iconic now with those three little balls on

395
00:32:55.759 --> 00:33:01.920
the bottom, not too dissimilar for
what Bazaar says they look like, but

396
00:33:02.400 --> 00:33:05.960
you could look that up. I
do want to get it more into your

397
00:33:06.000 --> 00:33:09.880
research, and I do want to
talk about cash Landron, which is such

398
00:33:09.920 --> 00:33:14.440
an interesting case, and I was
wondering if maybe to start off, if

399
00:33:14.480 --> 00:33:21.039
you could kind of explain those events
in a nutshell. That might be difficult

400
00:33:21.359 --> 00:33:24.359
for yeah, but as best as
possible. Well, you know, I

401
00:33:24.359 --> 00:33:30.599
guess rather than really describe it,
I'll just kind of identified, you know

402
00:33:30.680 --> 00:33:35.960
it. But one of the things
that's unusual about it is it's almost a

403
00:33:36.000 --> 00:33:39.319
twin event to the Renders from Forest
case. They happened within days of each

404
00:33:39.359 --> 00:33:45.920
other in December of nineteen eighty and
this event was in Helton near Huffman,

405
00:33:46.039 --> 00:33:52.759
Texas, and two ladies, Betty
Cash, Vicky Lander, and Vicki Lander's

406
00:33:52.759 --> 00:33:57.559
grandson were driving home about nine o'clock
at night and they saw a bright light

407
00:33:57.640 --> 00:34:02.079
through the trees and it eventually as
a rounded a curve, they saw this

408
00:34:02.319 --> 00:34:10.679
huge bright object demanting flames, and
it blocked their path and they stopped to

409
00:34:10.679 --> 00:34:17.760
look at it. And later they
all suffered some discomfort, and Betty Cash

410
00:34:17.800 --> 00:34:24.760
in particular had some severe skin problems, swelling, headache, and you know,

411
00:34:24.800 --> 00:34:30.679
some of the symptoms resembled that of
radiation poisoning. And the event was

412
00:34:30.719 --> 00:34:38.800
so strange that they had agreed not
to tell anyone about it and I'm skipping

413
00:34:38.840 --> 00:34:42.440
a lot of details here, but
there were also there was this fleet of

414
00:34:42.480 --> 00:34:45.239
helicopters that were involved, which later
led them to believe that it was some

415
00:34:45.280 --> 00:34:50.880
sort of military operation, whether it
was a putting in pursuit of a UFO

416
00:34:51.039 --> 00:34:57.679
or whether the UFO was a government
project. But Betty was hospitalized for several

417
00:34:57.719 --> 00:35:02.440
weeks and the we just had no
clues to what was wrong with around all

418
00:35:02.480 --> 00:35:09.559
sorts of tests, and it was
only it was Kolbe that actually told that

419
00:35:09.559 --> 00:35:15.679
that the UFO could have been the
cause of it. So and it's it's

420
00:35:15.719 --> 00:35:20.519
a there were there were several phases
to the story, but I'll stop here

421
00:35:20.559 --> 00:35:23.679
and see if you have a particular
question. Yeah, I think the events

422
00:35:23.719 --> 00:35:29.760
of when they stopped and observed the
craft were really interesting and you could correct

423
00:35:29.800 --> 00:35:34.079
me and clarify, but essentially,
uh, you know, one of I

424
00:35:34.079 --> 00:35:37.400
think one of them got out of
the car and then they they was it

425
00:35:37.559 --> 00:35:44.280
dashboard and melting or just really hot
and uh, they were feeling this extreme

426
00:35:44.360 --> 00:35:51.039
heat. Correct, that's right.
The object was producing both extreme light and

427
00:35:51.440 --> 00:35:57.360
heat, and you know they it
seemed to be it was it was flame

428
00:35:57.559 --> 00:36:00.519
like exhaust. Whether whether it's flames
or asthma. You know, we're not

429
00:36:00.559 --> 00:36:10.679
real sure, but they they later
described it as as flames and they the

430
00:36:10.800 --> 00:36:15.039
car, you know, they had
to shield their eyes from the brightness of

431
00:36:15.079 --> 00:36:21.639
it, and the car became hot. And it's it's confusing about just when

432
00:36:21.679 --> 00:36:29.840
the the dashboard was the well,
it wasn't, it wasn't completely melted,

433
00:36:29.880 --> 00:36:34.719
but it became softened from the heat. And at some point Vicky Lantham had

434
00:36:34.960 --> 00:36:38.119
reached out with her hands and pressed
and it left an impression. And the

435
00:36:38.320 --> 00:36:42.679
uh and this wasn't like putting your
hands in cement. It wasn't that distinct,

436
00:36:42.960 --> 00:36:45.679
but you know, it did just
it just it yielded to the pressure

437
00:36:45.719 --> 00:36:52.039
of her hand and it left a
permanent impression. And the when Betty Cash

438
00:36:52.079 --> 00:36:55.280
got back she was she stayed outside
to look at it the longest. Kolbe

439
00:36:57.039 --> 00:37:00.840
was about seven years old. He
was frightened, and Vicky got in the

440
00:37:00.840 --> 00:37:06.519
car to comfort and shelter him.
Betty stayed outside a bit longer, trying

441
00:37:06.519 --> 00:37:08.639
to see what the object was.
It was so bright they really couldn't determine

442
00:37:08.679 --> 00:37:15.039
what it was. They might make
out the shape of it, and the

443
00:37:15.360 --> 00:37:20.360
when she got back in the car
because Vicky was calling for She wanted to,

444
00:37:20.400 --> 00:37:22.400
you know, let's get away from
here, but they couldn't. We

445
00:37:22.440 --> 00:37:27.719
have were blocked. But when when
Betty reached the h for the car handle,

446
00:37:27.760 --> 00:37:30.039
it was so hot that she had
to use her coat to open the

447
00:37:30.079 --> 00:37:36.519
handle and U so the and once
they got back inside, it eventually lifted

448
00:37:36.559 --> 00:37:39.760
off. But then the interior of
the car was somehow heated and they had

449
00:37:39.800 --> 00:37:44.559
to turn on the air conditioner.
And this was about it was a mild

450
00:37:45.199 --> 00:37:49.400
Texas winter, but it was about
forty degrees outside. Well, they hid

451
00:37:49.440 --> 00:37:52.719
the they had just turn on the
air conditioning to cool off the car.

452
00:37:52.679 --> 00:37:58.760
Wow. And so was it as
they left that they saw something like six

453
00:37:58.840 --> 00:38:06.800
or seven was it helicopters, large
helicopters fly by that That is a little

454
00:38:06.800 --> 00:38:10.920
bit confusing because the boy Kolby saw
said he saw helicopters from the time they

455
00:38:10.920 --> 00:38:15.280
first saw the UFOs, But it
was the ladies seemed to see them later.

456
00:38:15.559 --> 00:38:21.519
And it was initially they were I
think they were fairly far off because

457
00:38:21.559 --> 00:38:25.880
in the original testimony they saw they
saw they weren't sure if they were helicopters

458
00:38:25.960 --> 00:38:30.480
or planes or what. But as
he went down the road, they encountered

459
00:38:30.960 --> 00:38:37.679
because it's kind of a winding path. They they saw the helicopters much more

460
00:38:37.719 --> 00:38:43.920
closely following the UFO, and part
of the reason they could catch up with

461
00:38:44.000 --> 00:38:51.280
it was the UFO was described by
him as almost well they use words like

462
00:38:51.519 --> 00:38:54.079
that that horvered, that it floated, and it flew away slowly. So

463
00:38:54.119 --> 00:39:00.000
this wasn't This wasn't like a flying
saucer zipping around. This almost had more

464
00:39:00.119 --> 00:39:02.840
of a you know, you could
speculate, you know, whether that that

465
00:39:02.920 --> 00:39:07.639
it was bloom like or you know, anti gravity or or what. But

466
00:39:07.679 --> 00:39:12.719
it wasn't. It wasn't it wasn't
a rapid flight, and so the helicopters

467
00:39:13.960 --> 00:39:17.760
were able to pace it. And
so from the second location, that's where

468
00:39:17.760 --> 00:39:21.480
they got a really good look at
the helicopters and you could see that they

469
00:39:21.519 --> 00:39:24.639
had that they they didn't know what
kind of were, but you know,

470
00:39:24.679 --> 00:39:28.480
there were siege forty seven, you
know, which are huge, bigger than

471
00:39:28.519 --> 00:39:32.559
a blast and they have the two
rotors on top. And so they got

472
00:39:32.599 --> 00:39:37.519
they were they were still silhoulted from
the light. They couldn't see markings on

473
00:39:37.599 --> 00:39:45.000
them or you know, find details
like that. But they got a good

474
00:39:45.039 --> 00:39:47.519
look and also there was you know, a huge noise from the helicopters themselves,

475
00:39:49.360 --> 00:39:52.920
and speaking of noise, that the
UFO was emitting some sort of series

476
00:39:52.960 --> 00:39:58.800
of beeps, and there was there
was also some kind of roaring. Well

477
00:39:58.880 --> 00:40:01.760
I'm trying to think there was.
There was a sound they described as like

478
00:40:02.079 --> 00:40:07.960
a wishing of air brakes and and
I think that was associated with the jet

479
00:40:07.960 --> 00:40:13.840
of flames. So it was there
was you know, there's an indication from

480
00:40:13.880 --> 00:40:19.159
that that it was it was something
mechanical. You know, it wasn't like

481
00:40:19.480 --> 00:40:22.920
just some cloud of plasma or something
like that that it was. It was

482
00:40:22.960 --> 00:40:29.480
a physical mechanical object. Mm hm. And uh. Now I believe at

483
00:40:29.599 --> 00:40:37.039
least they all suffered from medical uh
effects they believe were a result of this

484
00:40:37.159 --> 00:40:43.559
sighting. Is that correct, That's
that's controversial. One of the things we

485
00:40:43.599 --> 00:40:47.960
have to remember in this case was
that it was almost it was almost two

486
00:40:47.960 --> 00:40:54.559
months later before it was really reported, you know, they Betty went into

487
00:40:54.559 --> 00:41:00.360
the hospital about three days later,
and it was it was only once she

488
00:41:00.440 --> 00:41:07.599
finally told her doctor several weeks later, and then the doctor insisted that she

489
00:41:07.760 --> 00:41:14.079
reported and so she reported it to
It was Vicky Lander who it was only

490
00:41:14.119 --> 00:41:16.639
Betty Cash that was hospitalized. First
of all, I mean back up there,

491
00:41:17.280 --> 00:41:22.079
Vicky and Colby were their symptoms were
such that they were able to take

492
00:41:22.119 --> 00:41:27.079
care of themselves at home, and
they had they reported and see their their

493
00:41:27.079 --> 00:41:30.679
injuries are not are not well documented, but they had they had flu like

494
00:41:30.719 --> 00:41:37.440
system symptoms and also red skin as
if they'd been sunburned. And there also

495
00:41:37.480 --> 00:41:45.480
their eyes were affected by the by
the brightness. And Vicky Lander had gone

496
00:41:45.480 --> 00:41:52.280
to her eye doctor and she had
been given a new set of glasses,

497
00:41:52.679 --> 00:41:58.039
new prescription. And also he had
you know, he noted that her eyes

498
00:41:58.079 --> 00:42:01.000
seemed to have suffered, you know, from some sort of injuries from the

499
00:42:01.360 --> 00:42:12.519
brightness. M hm. And so
now in in your investigation, I mean,

500
00:42:12.639 --> 00:42:15.320
what a lot of people, you
know, the old timer UFO guys

501
00:42:15.360 --> 00:42:21.800
who know of this case and have
looked at it. John Schusler, who

502
00:42:21.920 --> 00:42:24.440
was the director of Moufon and one
of the founders of Moufon. He was

503
00:42:24.480 --> 00:42:27.960
actually a mentor of mine. He
wrote a book about it. I know

504
00:42:28.039 --> 00:42:31.880
it was involved in the case,
and he believes it was not a human

505
00:42:34.440 --> 00:42:37.599
craft. But there is some debate
that if it seemed to have you know,

506
00:42:38.159 --> 00:42:44.119
radioactive properties, or this is radiation
they suffered from that perhaps this was

507
00:42:44.480 --> 00:42:50.920
some sort of nuclear powered experimental craft, especially given the helicopters. I don't

508
00:42:50.920 --> 00:42:53.360
know if you know this, you
probably do. I've interviewed John Alexander,

509
00:42:54.079 --> 00:42:59.719
you know, the Army colonel retired, and about this case. He thinks

510
00:42:59.719 --> 00:43:05.199
it was extraterrestrial and that the helicopters
weren't real, that they were projections by

511
00:43:05.239 --> 00:43:10.360
this craft somehow. So a lot
of opinions out there as to what it

512
00:43:10.440 --> 00:43:15.880
was. What are how do you
feel what is the evidence either way?

513
00:43:16.039 --> 00:43:21.119
Well, you know, uh John
Alexander, I'm wondering if he got his

514
00:43:21.239 --> 00:43:24.719
ideas on that from uh doctor j
Allen Heineg. He was interviewed in Omni

515
00:43:24.800 --> 00:43:32.159
magazine and he suggested something was virtually
identical to that he thought it was.

516
00:43:32.440 --> 00:43:39.039
He talked about maybe some sort of
holographic projection that could have physical effects on

517
00:43:39.400 --> 00:43:43.800
things, and he thought that was
But because they looked everywhere, I mean,

518
00:43:43.880 --> 00:43:49.159
his his teammate Alan Hendry, had
looked for the source of the helicopters

519
00:43:49.159 --> 00:43:52.199
and came up, came up drive. No one could could locate him.

520
00:43:52.199 --> 00:43:55.840
The Army did an internal investigation and
they couldn't locate, you know, any

521
00:43:55.920 --> 00:44:04.480
matching ASAR and you know, there
were big helicopter operations at the time they

522
00:44:04.480 --> 00:44:09.639
were preparing for this hostage rescue in
Iran, so they were they were running

523
00:44:09.679 --> 00:44:14.039
training missions, but not during this. This would have been during the Christmas

524
00:44:14.480 --> 00:44:19.239
to New Year's holiday, and you
know the bases where they were like basically

525
00:44:19.239 --> 00:44:23.719
a skeleton crew. So you know, it's very perplexing. But so there

526
00:44:24.920 --> 00:44:30.239
it's I don't know that that is
so speculative and and goes into it just

527
00:44:30.280 --> 00:44:35.039
because you can't find a source of
helicopters. I'm not ready to go into

528
00:44:35.440 --> 00:44:39.880
two uh you know, alien mental
or or holographic projections. But you know,

529
00:44:39.960 --> 00:44:51.599
it's but the craft itself is so
unlike anything that there has been designed.

530
00:44:51.599 --> 00:44:55.320
I mean that the it was Colby
that insisted it was diamond shape.

531
00:44:55.360 --> 00:44:59.800
The women couldn't really make out the
shape of the thing. But you know,

532
00:45:00.119 --> 00:45:05.639
just the way that it behaved and
is just so unlike anything that we've

533
00:45:05.679 --> 00:45:09.400
developed. It's just hard to imagine, you know, how it would land,

534
00:45:09.840 --> 00:45:15.840
what purposes it would serve if it
was a military vehicle. And one

535
00:45:15.840 --> 00:45:22.639
of the things that's so strange about
this is that the development process for military

536
00:45:22.679 --> 00:45:30.239
aircraft is often five to ten years
are longer, and there's just like a

537
00:45:30.280 --> 00:45:36.000
massive If you look atny of the
Lockheed projects or things like that, there's

538
00:45:36.000 --> 00:45:38.800
so many people involved, the engineers, they would just seem to be a

539
00:45:38.840 --> 00:45:44.039
record. And you know, if
I'm just not convinced that it was a

540
00:45:44.079 --> 00:45:46.000
military aircraft, you know, and
I don't know, I'm not going to

541
00:45:46.119 --> 00:45:53.239
jump to the the et explanation,
but it's it's a genuine unknown well,

542
00:45:53.320 --> 00:45:57.440
and I think I don't know,
you would probably know more about this,

543
00:45:57.599 --> 00:46:01.079
but this is kind of the area
of Stanton Friedman expertise. He worked on

544
00:46:02.039 --> 00:46:12.000
nuclear powered essentially experiments in empowering different
devices and vehicles with nuclear power, and

545
00:46:12.920 --> 00:46:15.840
he had said that he doesn't believe
we had anything close to that. He

546
00:46:15.880 --> 00:46:22.199
has a more articulate and a great
explanation. I think he gives examples of

547
00:46:22.199 --> 00:46:28.199
what they were working on. But
well, I tend to agree with him

548
00:46:28.239 --> 00:46:30.800
there. And what's interesting is if
you go back and look at some of

549
00:46:30.800 --> 00:46:35.719
the interviews from the eighties, he
actually changed his position on that, and

550
00:46:35.920 --> 00:46:37.840
that's not something he does very often, but I think he, you know,

551
00:46:37.880 --> 00:46:44.079
he looked at the facts of things
and revised his position on that.

552
00:46:44.400 --> 00:46:52.599
But one of the things that is
I think that hurts the nuclear aircraft theory

553
00:46:52.079 --> 00:46:57.119
was the fact that it doesn't match
the injuries. And you mentioned John Alexander

554
00:46:57.119 --> 00:47:00.400
earlier. He was he was involved
in the arm his investigation of this in

555
00:47:00.440 --> 00:47:07.079
a minor way. George Taran had
been given the task determined whether or not

556
00:47:07.119 --> 00:47:13.280
that the Army helicopters were involved,
but he was doing the thorough job.

557
00:47:13.360 --> 00:47:22.639
He contacted some people Captain Peter Rank
and John Alexander and Richard Niemso. All

558
00:47:22.679 --> 00:47:30.199
these guys were in the military and
had a UFO interest. And one of

559
00:47:30.239 --> 00:47:35.719
the things that just didn't add up
was that the for Betty Cash in particular,

560
00:47:35.760 --> 00:47:38.760
to have the symptoms so soon,
she would have had to have a

561
00:47:38.840 --> 00:47:46.639
lethal dose of radiation to have the
onset of the skin problems, the flu

562
00:47:46.840 --> 00:47:53.960
like symptoms and the hair loss.
So and also the hospital test that they

563
00:47:54.000 --> 00:48:01.079
had run didn't didn't match that.
So it you can match some of these

564
00:48:01.079 --> 00:48:07.559
symptoms to things like even chemical exposure
or in some of the symptoms match microwave

565
00:48:07.880 --> 00:48:14.119
radiation, it didn't match anything that
we really knew. And you know,

566
00:48:14.199 --> 00:48:16.840
again I'm not just because it because
it doesn't add up. I'm not ready

567
00:48:16.880 --> 00:48:22.000
to say, you know, well
then it's alien radiation. But it's there's

568
00:48:22.039 --> 00:48:25.000
so many things in this case,
like the helicopters and the nature of the

569
00:48:25.079 --> 00:48:31.280
radiation that you can get like three
pieces that start to fit together and looks

570
00:48:31.360 --> 00:48:35.519
like, okay, we've got this, and then but when you add the

571
00:48:35.559 --> 00:48:39.920
other pieces, you know it's they
contradict and you just left with puzzle.

572
00:48:39.960 --> 00:48:46.280
But the events in genuine certainly the
effect on the witnesses was genuine. But

573
00:48:46.599 --> 00:48:55.639
you know, we're left with these
conflicting details, and it's hopefully there's there's

574
00:48:55.639 --> 00:49:00.679
still some information out there, whether
whether it's going to be from helicopter pilots

575
00:49:00.800 --> 00:49:05.480
or some records that haven't been released. And you know, there's even the

576
00:49:05.480 --> 00:49:14.559
potential of some local witnesses that have
have kind of gone quiet that there this

577
00:49:14.559 --> 00:49:17.760
this case is not so ancient that
it that it's going to be a dead

578
00:49:17.880 --> 00:49:21.960
end. I think there's still hope
to get some more information about things,

579
00:49:21.960 --> 00:49:25.159
and there's a surviving witness, kolbe
Lander is still alive now. Whether or

580
00:49:25.159 --> 00:49:29.039
not he can provide any more information, you know, that remains to be

581
00:49:29.079 --> 00:49:37.559
seen. What did their doctors,
uh feel happened or where the you know,

582
00:49:37.599 --> 00:49:46.360
what was the diagnosis. I think
that John Shuster's book has the best

583
00:49:46.480 --> 00:49:51.000
information on that. Now, sadly
it's out of print, and you know,

584
00:49:51.760 --> 00:49:53.639
I monitor it on on eBay.
I have a copy. I was

585
00:49:53.840 --> 00:49:57.719
I was lucky enough to get in
front of two hundred dollars, but it

586
00:49:57.840 --> 00:50:01.039
sells regularly for about five fe fifty
his asking price. Because it was a

587
00:50:01.039 --> 00:50:06.239
self published book, it had a
limited print run. I'm not sure,

588
00:50:06.320 --> 00:50:08.239
you know, maybe a thousand or
and two copies, so it's it's pretty

589
00:50:08.320 --> 00:50:15.159
rare, but it's it's mainly a
compilation of his reports, and in the

590
00:50:15.199 --> 00:50:19.320
back of it there are a number
of photographs and documents. They are not

591
00:50:21.079 --> 00:50:28.960
they are not medical reports reprinted in
their entirety. It's made mainly a summer

592
00:50:29.000 --> 00:50:37.920
of things. But that and the
doctors referred to Betty Cash's skin problems as

593
00:50:37.960 --> 00:50:43.840
things like well, I was now
I'm going to blank on the word.

594
00:50:43.960 --> 00:50:45.639
It wasn't contusions, but it was
you know, they don't refer to it

595
00:50:45.679 --> 00:50:50.239
specifically as burns, and it was
as if she had this she had a

596
00:50:50.280 --> 00:50:57.760
series of of bumps and her scalp
was swollen, and she had blisters over

597
00:50:57.800 --> 00:51:00.199
her eyes or ears were swollen,
and she had this, you know,

598
00:51:00.599 --> 00:51:07.760
terrible crippling headache along with these food
like symptoms. But what they didn't and

599
00:51:07.039 --> 00:51:13.800
they were in blood tests, but
they didn't determine radiation poisoning. So,

600
00:51:14.039 --> 00:51:16.519
you know, whatever happened, it
wasn't It wasn't something as simple as like

601
00:51:16.920 --> 00:51:22.679
walking by open nuclear reactor. It
was something far more complex than that.

602
00:51:22.039 --> 00:51:30.840
But the thing is, even though
the injuries are puzzling, they correspond to

603
00:51:30.960 --> 00:51:35.800
the UFO siding, they're medically documented. It's just you know, it's but

604
00:51:35.880 --> 00:51:38.840
it's you know, we're left with
kind of some puzzling details. And what's

605
00:51:38.880 --> 00:51:45.960
frustrating is the fact that that Colby
and Vicki weren't admitted to the hospital that

606
00:51:45.960 --> 00:51:51.360
they were treated. Now, one
interesting thing is the media has played a

607
00:51:51.400 --> 00:51:55.280
big role in this case from the
very beginning, and the it was a

608
00:51:55.559 --> 00:52:00.440
tabloid newspaper, the Weekly World News
that wrote the story. Now, the

609
00:52:00.480 --> 00:52:04.840
Weekly World News is known for ridiculous
stuff like bat Boy, but in its

610
00:52:04.880 --> 00:52:07.840
early days it was fairly straightforward and
they did actually a pretty good job of

611
00:52:07.920 --> 00:52:15.960
reporting this case, you know,
other than some kind of sensational language.

612
00:52:15.039 --> 00:52:28.320
The details of the story were spot
on, and that caused the Good Morning

613
00:52:28.360 --> 00:52:36.400
America to take notice and it was
featured on this and from there that's incredible.

614
00:52:36.440 --> 00:52:38.400
If you remember that old show,
they did a story on it,

615
00:52:38.440 --> 00:52:45.639
and that was they got deeply involved. They met with the witnesses in July

616
00:52:45.079 --> 00:52:53.639
nineteen eighty one, and then later
Vicky Landam appeared in the studio. It

617
00:52:53.679 --> 00:53:00.079
was hypnotized by doctor Leo Sprinkle and
told the story and the anguish of her

618
00:53:00.199 --> 00:53:07.599
reliving the experience was was really profound. And the thing is hypnosis is we

619
00:53:07.679 --> 00:53:12.840
know it's it's not a method of
getting to the truth, and it can

620
00:53:12.920 --> 00:53:16.559
kind of I think it did accurately
reflect her experience and the way that it

621
00:53:16.599 --> 00:53:21.679
felt. But it's just you know, if you don't have if you don't

622
00:53:21.679 --> 00:53:24.079
have the information, and she can't, she can't tell you. The nature

623
00:53:24.119 --> 00:53:28.079
of the craft is she didn't see
it. You know, she can't tell

624
00:53:28.119 --> 00:53:31.280
you who was inside or what it
was. You know, just from hypnosis,

625
00:53:31.440 --> 00:53:37.119
you know you can you can be
made to speculate, but it was

626
00:53:37.199 --> 00:53:39.800
it was from during the show.
One of the things they did that was

627
00:53:39.920 --> 00:53:45.800
that was unique. They got that
they couldn't get the hospital that had examined

628
00:53:45.840 --> 00:53:47.760
Betty to talk about it, but
they got they took I'm not sure if

629
00:53:47.840 --> 00:53:53.960
Kolbe was examined, but both Betty
and Vicki were examined at the Methodist Memorial

630
00:53:54.000 --> 00:53:59.320
Hospital, and you know, one
of the doctors had examined them talked about

631
00:53:59.320 --> 00:54:02.760
it, and all they could really
say was that the skin conditions and things

632
00:54:02.960 --> 00:54:09.960
resembled radiation exposure. You know,
they couldn't say definitely, but you know

633
00:54:10.039 --> 00:54:15.679
it was so again, you know, they they they were subjected to something

634
00:54:15.840 --> 00:54:22.679
had real physical effects, but it's
it's a mismatch to the things that we

635
00:54:23.079 --> 00:54:27.239
you know, we can't say it's
chemical, can't say it's radiation. And

636
00:54:27.760 --> 00:54:30.599
you know, if it was a
spectrum of things, well that's that's possible,

637
00:54:30.639 --> 00:54:34.800
but it's not something we could duplicate
either. M HM. So fascinating,

638
00:54:34.840 --> 00:54:39.400
what an incredible case. And and
Blue tell people that you're u r

639
00:54:39.440 --> 00:54:45.559
O where they can find out more
information about it blue glorylines dot com.

640
00:54:45.840 --> 00:54:47.719
And one of the things that I'm
most proud of is areas I've managed to

641
00:54:47.760 --> 00:54:52.840
dig up a lot of documents from
different sources and including some of the uh

642
00:54:53.320 --> 00:54:58.360
the files from the notorious skeptic fill
Class because he had an interest in it.

643
00:54:58.800 --> 00:55:04.280
And what I've done is if you
go to the blueblorylines dot com across

644
00:55:04.360 --> 00:55:08.800
the top of the page, there's
some resources and I've got a collection of

645
00:55:08.800 --> 00:55:14.320
those documents and you can say and
that's something I encourage people to do in

646
00:55:14.360 --> 00:55:16.400
any case they're interested in trying to
go to the source material. If there's

647
00:55:16.400 --> 00:55:22.320
a police report or original move one
report or whatever in What's blue book is

648
00:55:22.679 --> 00:55:25.280
go to the source, you know, examine and with that earliest testimony,

649
00:55:25.320 --> 00:55:30.039
don't rely on a summary in somebody's
you know, opinion on it, because

650
00:55:30.039 --> 00:55:37.800
they all you know, buyas creeps
into everyone's it's just an anytimes the story

651
00:55:37.880 --> 00:55:42.679
is repeated, you know, some
details are lost or things are overemphasized.

652
00:55:44.360 --> 00:55:49.039
Now speaking of phil Class, you
know and the heartened skeptics, I'm sure

653
00:55:49.079 --> 00:55:54.199
there were skeptics who believe there were
prosaic answers. Most likely they called it

654
00:55:54.239 --> 00:55:59.920
a hoax. But you know,
what were their arguments, what was their

655
00:56:00.159 --> 00:56:08.639
evidence and was there any weight to
their their claims? There there's been a

656
00:56:08.679 --> 00:56:16.480
few. One was Stuart Campbell.
He's in listening to reports. He said

657
00:56:16.480 --> 00:56:22.079
that because the the moon had been
mentioned in some of the reports, well

658
00:56:22.119 --> 00:56:28.480
that meant that the moon at the
time wouldn't have come up until after midnight

659
00:56:28.480 --> 00:56:31.440
it was in the third quarter phase. And he said, well, then

660
00:56:31.559 --> 00:56:36.800
they had to have been wrong about
the time, and so if that's the

661
00:56:36.800 --> 00:56:42.440
case, he claimed that what he
had seen was I forget which the star

662
00:56:42.719 --> 00:56:46.119
was, but he said that that
star was particularly bright, and so I

663
00:56:46.119 --> 00:56:50.760
don't know how he got the rest
of the story from them just seeing a

664
00:56:50.760 --> 00:56:57.079
bright star, but that was that
was one thing. But the so the

665
00:56:57.360 --> 00:57:01.559
the moon part was definitely in air. I think that was probably in a

666
00:57:02.480 --> 00:57:07.239
when when they were trying to when
John Shusseer was trying to describe how the

667
00:57:07.239 --> 00:57:12.920
the helicopters were visible. You know, he was talking about the light from

668
00:57:12.960 --> 00:57:16.039
the city and and the glow from
the moon. Well, the moon wasn't

669
00:57:16.119 --> 00:57:20.639
up, so that that was just
a mistake. And as far as as

670
00:57:20.679 --> 00:57:25.199
phil class, he relied a lot
on information from Gary Posner. He's not

671
00:57:25.280 --> 00:57:31.519
as well known these days, but
he's a he's a notory skeptic as well,

672
00:57:31.559 --> 00:57:36.800
and he's he was also I forget
his he's a doctor. I forget

673
00:57:36.800 --> 00:57:39.960
his his particular discipline, but it's
not radiation. And he studied a lot

674
00:57:40.119 --> 00:57:47.480
on this and he's it was his
theory that basically the injuries were covered were

675
00:57:47.519 --> 00:57:52.039
caused by sun lamp and that it
was fate. So, you know,

676
00:57:52.519 --> 00:58:00.320
I didn't find that to be likely. A more recent skeptic, it goes

677
00:58:00.320 --> 00:58:06.480
by the name is Zoe Chomsky,
with no evidence of it whatsoever. He

678
00:58:06.519 --> 00:58:10.599
claims that it was a household cleaner
that Betty Cash had poured on herself and

679
00:58:10.639 --> 00:58:15.320
it had ingested, and that she
overdid it and that's what almost caused her

680
00:58:15.480 --> 00:58:19.519
to die. And I thought,
oh, that is that is so hainous,

681
00:58:19.599 --> 00:58:22.679
because you know, you're not only
were you just assuming that that the

682
00:58:23.039 --> 00:58:29.239
witnesses are dishonest, that they would
go to the links to injure themselves and

683
00:58:29.280 --> 00:58:34.400
nearly kill themselves. I thought,
that's that's sound landish. And if remember

684
00:58:34.440 --> 00:58:39.599
correctly they had good reputations, well
they did, and you know something interesting

685
00:58:39.639 --> 00:58:45.840
about that. You know, John
Shustler took a took a close interest in

686
00:58:45.880 --> 00:58:50.039
this case, became friends with him. He even described his relation to him

687
00:58:50.039 --> 00:58:52.280
as kind of being being a rabbi
for him. He he was sort of

688
00:58:52.280 --> 00:58:58.840
a late liaison of the press,
and he you know, invested the case,

689
00:58:59.039 --> 00:59:01.760
investigated the case personally, tried to
get help for him. I think

690
00:59:02.440 --> 00:59:07.280
in the sense he probably got too
personally involved, and I think he may

691
00:59:07.320 --> 00:59:13.599
have kind of lost some objective objectivity
there. But there's no doubt that they

692
00:59:15.320 --> 00:59:17.119
the little, the little bit of
help that they got. You know,

693
00:59:17.159 --> 00:59:22.079
he's responsible for seeing that, and
you know he if nothing else they did

694
00:59:22.119 --> 00:59:27.920
get, they didn't get satisfaction,
but they did get some comfort from having

695
00:59:28.119 --> 00:59:36.400
their story told. And for the
most part, the they were they were

696
00:59:36.440 --> 00:59:40.159
pretty well received in the press.
You know, people people thought they were

697
00:59:40.199 --> 00:59:46.639
credible. They I don't unlike some
of the other UFO witnesses, I don't

698
00:59:46.639 --> 00:59:51.480
think they were subject to to that
much ridicule, you know, at least

699
00:59:51.519 --> 00:59:54.159
not in the in the in the
media stories that I've that I've seen,

700
00:59:55.039 --> 01:00:04.280
and there were there was a lot
of newspaper coverage and the when there there

701
01:00:05.519 --> 01:00:07.800
was a long legal battle too,
and that's kind of a long story,

702
01:00:07.800 --> 01:00:13.480
but that's that's documented, but ultimately
was thrown out of thrown out of corp

703
01:00:13.519 --> 01:00:21.559
because there's insufficient evidence. You know, the the the all of the branches

704
01:00:21.599 --> 01:00:24.400
that the Armed Services said, well, they didn't operate anything that they resemble

705
01:00:24.559 --> 01:00:30.280
the craft, which is frustrating.
I mean I I and I understand John's

706
01:00:30.320 --> 01:00:36.280
frustration in that he feels so bad
for these people who are struggling with these

707
01:00:36.320 --> 01:00:43.119
medical conditions and there should be some
help and uh and just doing that by

708
01:00:43.159 --> 01:00:46.440
getting the military to admit, well, it wasn't ours. It's significant when

709
01:00:46.480 --> 01:00:51.920
it comes to the case and what
it might have been, but still there

710
01:00:51.960 --> 01:00:54.239
should be some help for these people. I think he felt, and I

711
01:00:54.280 --> 01:01:00.400
think everybody who reads his story feels. And so it's tragic in that sense,

712
01:01:00.480 --> 01:01:05.440
which I could see why John.
You know, we get so personally

713
01:01:05.480 --> 01:01:09.800
wrapped up in it just trying to
help these poor people. One thing I

714
01:01:09.840 --> 01:01:15.159
should mention someone, I feel a
lot of people helpful. When I was

715
01:01:15.639 --> 01:01:20.159
trying to dig for more information on
this, you know, I talked to

716
01:01:21.039 --> 01:01:29.000
the film class files. I got
those from the oh gosh, American Philosophical

717
01:01:29.880 --> 01:01:34.480
Society. He'd left his records to
that, and I actually had to purchase

718
01:01:34.519 --> 01:01:37.480
copies of those. But I've also
contacted libraries where they were able to give

719
01:01:37.519 --> 01:01:45.840
me provide me copies of newspaper articles
and things like that, and a number

720
01:01:45.880 --> 01:01:52.320
of individuals. One in particular was
Chris Lambright. He had conducted an investigation

721
01:01:52.440 --> 01:01:57.480
in nineteen eighty five. He lived
in Texas, and he went to the

722
01:01:58.079 --> 01:02:06.000
Dayton and interviewed Vicky Landraam to vice
and he had taken a video and unfortunately

723
01:02:06.079 --> 01:02:09.079
the audio on it's really bad,
but it was linked the interview with Vicky

724
01:02:09.159 --> 01:02:16.199
Landerman and that was I'm hoping to
transcribe that and and to uh to print

725
01:02:16.239 --> 01:02:20.039
that at some point, but it
was just, you know, it was

726
01:02:20.079 --> 01:02:24.199
great to see her in a relaxed
setting and in a conversation and tell her

727
01:02:24.280 --> 01:02:29.880
story and the difficulties that she had
and her attitude on the court case.

728
01:02:30.320 --> 01:02:34.760
And there there was something that one
of the things I wanted to say about

729
01:02:34.800 --> 01:02:38.639
that was that I think the key
events, you know, something actually happened.

730
01:02:38.639 --> 01:02:42.280
There's a lot of puzzles about that. But there there were some other

731
01:02:42.320 --> 01:02:46.000
things later that you know that we're
basically rumor and you know, confusing,

732
01:02:46.960 --> 01:02:51.920
Like you know, there's legends of
the the road being torn up and replaced,

733
01:02:51.920 --> 01:02:54.679
and I don't I don't think that's
that's that's genuine only in the sense

734
01:02:54.719 --> 01:02:59.320
that it was an old country road
and needed repair. And once it happened,

735
01:02:59.400 --> 01:03:01.320
there this story is built up that
it was missed, you know,

736
01:03:01.360 --> 01:03:06.960
it was taken away because it was
covering up the evidence of the radiation,

737
01:03:07.480 --> 01:03:13.639
and that that just doesn't seem genuine
at all. But her her attitude about

738
01:03:13.840 --> 01:03:17.480
the court case, he had asked
her, you know, would you if

739
01:03:17.519 --> 01:03:22.599
the government settled out of court,
would you would you accept that? And

740
01:03:22.639 --> 01:03:29.880
she seemed very unhappy at that prospect
because she wanted that the truth to be

741
01:03:30.000 --> 01:03:34.480
told and it admitted in court,
you know, and to be printed in

742
01:03:34.519 --> 01:03:38.280
the newspaper and you know it's some
acknowledgment that that things had actually happened.

743
01:03:38.519 --> 01:03:43.199
So it was you know, the
public statement was was very important to her

744
01:03:43.719 --> 01:03:50.400
and there, you know, I
found it was good to see that on

745
01:03:50.519 --> 01:03:54.599
film. I found her to be
very sincere. Yep, great case,

746
01:03:55.000 --> 01:03:59.719
really interesting. In fact, it's
so interesting it took up most of our

747
01:03:59.760 --> 01:04:02.199
time. But before we're done,
I would like to ask about are there

748
01:04:02.239 --> 01:04:11.440
other cases that you've looked into as
closely or that you've begun to uh research

749
01:04:11.519 --> 01:04:15.320
and depth. Well, I focused
on this one because I thought it was

750
01:04:15.360 --> 01:04:20.920
so the information, the documentation was
so good, and also there's no it's

751
01:04:20.960 --> 01:04:27.599
not tainted by like phony photographs or
phony documents like you know that that bother

752
01:04:27.719 --> 01:04:34.000
so many other things. But but
from there it intersected with some things like,

753
01:04:34.239 --> 01:04:41.760
uh, I know that that you've
investigated Paul Bennovitt story. Well,

754
01:04:41.920 --> 01:04:44.679
he was interested in the Cash land
of case and he felt that it was

755
01:04:44.719 --> 01:04:51.639
an instance where it was a government
have some sort of combination alien US operation

756
01:04:51.840 --> 01:04:58.039
and technology. And and so I've
looked into that, and Richard Doughty spread

757
01:04:58.159 --> 01:05:03.000
spread stories about the the Cash Lantern
case. So from there I got I

758
01:05:03.039 --> 01:05:08.599
got sort of into the Benowitz case, and I've also looked into some of

759
01:05:08.599 --> 01:05:14.960
the other other military operations and there
were there are a lot of associated things

760
01:05:15.000 --> 01:05:17.960
like the leveland Texas case in the
fifties, where you know, there was

761
01:05:18.000 --> 01:05:25.360
this huge bright object that came down
and interfered with the vehicles. Well you

762
01:05:25.400 --> 01:05:30.599
know that the time is definitely different, but the appearance of the object is

763
01:05:30.639 --> 01:05:38.639
similar and so and it was emitting
some sort of energy. So there are

764
01:05:38.679 --> 01:05:44.119
some other things like that that that
unfortunately don't provide answers, but are interesting

765
01:05:44.159 --> 01:05:50.039
comparisons. And there's and I mentioned
it was interested in hoaxes. There have

766
01:05:50.119 --> 01:05:58.840
been some interesting cases where some most
often it's college students get together. There

767
01:05:59.199 --> 01:06:05.159
was one in cal Tech and this
was right after the famous swamp gas incident,

768
01:06:05.840 --> 01:06:12.679
and they they came up with a
fairly sophisticated balloon, had lights on

769
01:06:12.719 --> 01:06:17.159
it, and what what they're what
made their hoax unique was they had basically

770
01:06:17.360 --> 01:06:21.280
radar chaff I think it was,
you know, strips of full so that

771
01:06:23.920 --> 01:06:28.119
not only would it be seen,
but would be tracked on radar and so

772
01:06:29.320 --> 01:06:34.159
and you know, these scoundrels,
uh, they attracted the effect in the

773
01:06:34.199 --> 01:06:39.599
media, and you know, people
saw it and the the reaction of it

774
01:06:40.480 --> 01:06:47.800
to it. They seemed to uh
ascribe behavior to it that a balloon couldn't

775
01:06:47.840 --> 01:06:51.239
do, like it zipping off and
and and one woman who saw it said

776
01:06:51.239 --> 01:06:56.440
that when it was near she felt
the smell of perfume. So you know,

777
01:06:56.840 --> 01:07:00.280
it's an interesting psychological test that it
could bring out these things that just

778
01:07:00.320 --> 01:07:04.159
you know, clearly the balloon couldn't
do. So was this like late fifties

779
01:07:04.320 --> 01:07:09.559
or this would have been sixty seven, I believe, Oh, okay,

780
01:07:10.159 --> 01:07:15.199
yeah, and so but that was
that was just just one of ok that

781
01:07:15.280 --> 01:07:19.400
one was more sophisticated a hoax and
because most of the time it's just like

782
01:07:19.719 --> 01:07:26.159
some hot air balloon or something like
that, and people will see them,

783
01:07:26.199 --> 01:07:35.360
and you know, it's very confusing
because people can have these this same sense

784
01:07:35.360 --> 01:07:43.880
of wonder that you see from a
from a genuine unknown from and they can

785
01:07:43.920 --> 01:07:48.679
become it as convinced that they've seen
something. And once you have that feeling

786
01:07:49.039 --> 01:07:53.920
and they say, well, no, this is a advertising airplane or a

787
01:07:53.960 --> 01:07:58.039
hot air balloon or something, well
they can remain convinced. And you know,

788
01:07:58.119 --> 01:08:02.719
this emotional reaction is hard over on. I want to ask you before

789
01:08:02.760 --> 01:08:06.480
we're done, not that I think
it's a hoax. I don't know that

790
01:08:06.960 --> 01:08:12.960
you do either, but the Roswell
slides, of course it's been beaten to

791
01:08:13.000 --> 01:08:18.720
death on my show and by others. But you were one of the members

792
01:08:18.840 --> 01:08:25.279
of the Roswell Slides research group,
you know, the group that you know

793
01:08:25.359 --> 01:08:30.359
you guys did and unfortunately, and
I don't mean to slight some of the

794
01:08:30.359 --> 01:08:38.399
people that were part of the original
misidentification of these slides, but I think

795
01:08:38.479 --> 01:08:43.640
your group did more and better research
in the short amount of time after the

796
01:08:43.680 --> 01:08:49.560
slides were shown than the slides proponents
did in the years that they had it

797
01:08:49.720 --> 01:08:54.520
to do research. I mean,
I think that I really give you guys

798
01:08:54.600 --> 01:08:58.039
accolades for doing such a great job. And you know, I think cracking

799
01:08:58.079 --> 01:09:02.720
the case, uh you with well
just a number of other people. It's

800
01:09:02.960 --> 01:09:05.920
it's a long list of people,
so it's it's hard to remember all the

801
01:09:06.000 --> 01:09:12.000
names. But when you got involved
with that, I mean, do you

802
01:09:12.079 --> 01:09:15.279
feel that was a hoax? And
what prompted you to get so involved with

803
01:09:15.319 --> 01:09:20.199
that? Well, it really just
started off as is a conversation. We

804
01:09:20.239 --> 01:09:25.880
had had a group of people and
the and some of some of the people

805
01:09:26.600 --> 01:09:34.239
had been following Tony Bregalia and the
Rosewell case in general. And as it's

806
01:09:34.319 --> 01:09:39.239
developed, because it was it was, it sort of leaked out over period

807
01:09:39.239 --> 01:09:44.520
of years and uh as it was
really when once the announcement was made at

808
01:09:44.520 --> 01:09:50.399
the American University, and it was
it was so the claims are so enormous.

809
01:09:50.399 --> 01:09:54.439
It was like the smoking gun and
this is going to be proof of

810
01:09:54.640 --> 01:10:01.880
alien visitation and from the Rosewell crash. And with if it had been present

811
01:10:02.560 --> 01:10:05.439
in another way, I don't know
if I would have taken as big an

812
01:10:05.439 --> 01:10:09.880
interest in it. So but it's
almost as if you know, there's this

813
01:10:09.920 --> 01:10:12.359
big blockbuster movie coming in. You
know, you're just like, well,

814
01:10:12.399 --> 01:10:15.439
you want to know, you want
to read all every little magazines had bite

815
01:10:15.760 --> 01:10:17.439
and so it was kind of like
that at first. And the more information

816
01:10:17.520 --> 01:10:24.640
that we got, uh, we
started putting together details and some people had

817
01:10:24.680 --> 01:10:30.479
seen the slides and described there was
a Larry Limkey had had described it.

818
01:10:30.520 --> 01:10:35.600
And as as it was described though, it was in it was in a

819
01:10:35.640 --> 01:10:40.399
glass case and the weight was laid
out and things. It was just it

820
01:10:40.479 --> 01:10:44.119
sounded like we you know, this
sounds like this sounded like a museum exhibit.

821
01:10:44.199 --> 01:10:48.199
And when eventually the image of the
slide was leaked, that's just what

822
01:10:48.239 --> 01:10:51.920
it looked like to me. And
you know, we started comparing it against

823
01:10:53.840 --> 01:10:59.119
uh, photographs of different bodies,
and we found a mummy in the Smithsonian

824
01:10:59.159 --> 01:11:01.840
that closely was and it was the
body of a two to three year old

825
01:11:02.039 --> 01:11:08.439
boy from from Egypt, and you
know, the the ribs and the condition

826
01:11:08.520 --> 01:11:12.760
of the cage, the rib cage, you know, so closely resembled it.

827
01:11:12.840 --> 01:11:16.840
So we said, you know this
this this is a humanoid and I

828
01:11:16.880 --> 01:11:21.039
think it's a human child. So
that was that was really where we got

829
01:11:21.079 --> 01:11:30.079
started. Then the fact that the
placard was relatively easily deciphered. But see

830
01:11:30.119 --> 01:11:34.720
what what was different I think with
us is that our group was interested in

831
01:11:35.760 --> 01:11:45.479
finding information and sharing it and examining
it. And the the Roswell UH slides

832
01:11:45.560 --> 01:11:51.359
promoters, the the owners of the
slides had them sign this non disclosure agreement,

833
01:11:51.439 --> 01:11:55.399
and there was all this secrecy that
was brought into it, and it

834
01:11:55.560 --> 01:12:00.399
really inhibited research. And I think
when they had to uh for example,

835
01:12:00.439 --> 01:12:06.479
when they when they gave the placard
UH to UH to the experts to try

836
01:12:06.520 --> 01:12:10.880
to decipher it, well then only
they didn't give them the picture of the

837
01:12:10.960 --> 01:12:14.840
slide. They just gave them this
this little clip of it. And you

838
01:12:14.880 --> 01:12:18.159
know, we're not even sure if
they had well I know in some cases

839
01:12:18.199 --> 01:12:23.760
they had given them versions that had
been contrasted, so you didn't have the

840
01:12:23.800 --> 01:12:27.159
whole picture to work with. You
didn't have the original image. It was,

841
01:12:27.239 --> 01:12:30.760
you know, either been brightened or
or are they already been what I

842
01:12:30.800 --> 01:12:33.119
don't mean to say tampered with,
but altered. You didn't have the original

843
01:12:33.119 --> 01:12:39.399
image and so it was just so
fragmented. The people that were working on

844
01:12:39.439 --> 01:12:45.279
it seemed to have their hands tied. And plus they went in I don't

845
01:12:45.279 --> 01:12:48.560
know how many of them that were
involved in it. But they went in

846
01:12:48.600 --> 01:12:55.399
with this this preconceived notion that this
was an alien and I think it kind

847
01:12:55.399 --> 01:13:00.239
of blinded the other possibilities. Yeah, yeah, and I agree. You

848
01:13:00.279 --> 01:13:04.920
know, you make some great points
because, for instance, with the photos

849
01:13:05.680 --> 01:13:12.960
and the de blurring that was done
by nab right is his name, at

850
01:13:13.039 --> 01:13:16.800
least his Facebook name. You have
to have that program, You have to

851
01:13:16.840 --> 01:13:20.359
have the picture is the more data
you have is important because you have to

852
01:13:20.600 --> 01:13:26.159
kind of mirror the blur and its
angles in order to de blur it,

853
01:13:26.960 --> 01:13:30.880
which is a long and tedious process
that was locally done by someone from your

854
01:13:30.920 --> 01:13:35.199
group. Uh. And I don't
think they didn't contact experts who even knew

855
01:13:35.520 --> 01:13:39.720
de blur existed, to be honest, until you guys released that, I

856
01:13:39.720 --> 01:13:44.920
didn't know these de blur programs were
out there. As soon as I found

857
01:13:44.960 --> 01:13:47.840
out, I downloaded it and you
know, began, uh trying to work

858
01:13:47.840 --> 01:13:51.239
with it to de blur the picture. And it was just too long of

859
01:13:51.239 --> 01:13:55.600
a process. And luckily you guys
had a guy who did it. But

860
01:13:57.199 --> 01:14:00.800
uh, and so there was a
lot of the got their hands were certainly

861
01:14:01.000 --> 01:14:10.359
tied. And then friendships come along
and and and strong personalities. So there's

862
01:14:10.479 --> 01:14:15.199
so much socially that was interesting.
But I do think it's interesting. Uh.

863
01:14:15.399 --> 01:14:19.560
And I think you guys have some
of you have made this point because

864
01:14:19.880 --> 01:14:27.399
all of this peripheral stuff such as
relationships professional or otherwise, uh, and

865
01:14:27.479 --> 01:14:35.680
friendships and kind of this grandiose kind
of and egos, I guess I get

866
01:14:35.680 --> 01:14:42.399
in the way and showmanship that all
of this got in the way as well,

867
01:14:42.800 --> 01:14:48.399
uh to doing real research. That's
true, And you know it's it's

868
01:14:48.439 --> 01:14:55.920
a shame because I just think that
in any investigation, you've got to follow

869
01:14:55.960 --> 01:15:00.319
the evidence. And and somehow this
got turned around from the very strong I

870
01:15:00.359 --> 01:15:04.479
think if you listen to Tom Carey
talk about the case, he said when

871
01:15:04.479 --> 01:15:10.159
he saw the slides, it connected
with this testimony that he heard about the

872
01:15:10.560 --> 01:15:14.760
child of the Earth. And I
think he made that association, and you

873
01:15:14.800 --> 01:15:21.279
know, I kind of I think
that that I don't know if it was

874
01:15:21.279 --> 01:15:27.239
an emotional connection or biased, but
I think that that kept him from looking

875
01:15:27.399 --> 01:15:32.279
at things objectively. And the the
other thing we're talking about hands being tied,

876
01:15:32.560 --> 01:15:39.800
well, even when the the experts
are consultants, I don't know if

877
01:15:39.840 --> 01:15:43.039
we should call him experts when when
they were brought in, they were given

878
01:15:43.079 --> 01:15:45.159
them, they were given digital copies, know, you know, except for

879
01:15:45.199 --> 01:15:51.840
the I think the Kodak analysis analysts
that that helped authenticate things. I think

880
01:15:51.880 --> 01:15:56.159
he's one of the few people that
actually saw the original slides and everybody else

881
01:15:56.239 --> 01:16:00.880
was working from digital copies and as
we know now, the the images were

882
01:16:00.920 --> 01:16:05.039
blurred, so, you know,
anyone that was trying to to examine this

883
01:16:05.159 --> 01:16:09.239
and they said, hey, look, and I think that they they said,

884
01:16:09.279 --> 01:16:12.439
hey, tell me about this alien
picture, you know, and they

885
01:16:12.439 --> 01:16:18.239
went in with this preconceived notion and
the you you can look now at the

886
01:16:18.319 --> 01:16:25.560
at the shelves and see that the
the there's double images of the holes in

887
01:16:25.600 --> 01:16:29.520
the shelves, so you know,
the whole body is is also blurred.

888
01:16:29.600 --> 01:16:32.640
So some of the details are not
that clear, but you know, it's

889
01:16:32.760 --> 01:16:35.880
it's just puzzling to me that some
of the other things in the photographs,

890
01:16:35.960 --> 01:16:40.960
like there there are other little signs
available that are facing the other way.

891
01:16:41.079 --> 01:16:45.880
And you can see, especially in
the the the darker the two photographs,

892
01:16:45.960 --> 01:16:47.920
you can see part of a bench
in the background. It just doesn't match

893
01:16:48.000 --> 01:16:55.359
the setting of a of a military
uh UH or scientific examination where they would

894
01:16:55.359 --> 01:16:59.039
they would have been taking this precious
specimen. Mm hmm. And I say

895
01:16:59.079 --> 01:17:02.199
it with all due respect fact that
I, when I see the photos,

896
01:17:03.199 --> 01:17:11.439
don't understand myself how someone could think
it was anything other than a museum display.

897
01:17:11.600 --> 01:17:16.079
I just don't see it at all. So and that's where I come

898
01:17:16.119 --> 01:17:19.960
from. And I don't mean to
be you know, because I have a

899
01:17:20.039 --> 01:17:24.760
great respect, especially for Don Schmidt. I love Don Schmidt, you know.

900
01:17:24.840 --> 01:17:27.840
I think I've said that several times. He's a friend, He's a

901
01:17:27.880 --> 01:17:30.239
great guy. I really like the
guy. I think he's done some great

902
01:17:30.279 --> 01:17:32.600
research. Tom's a good guy.
And you know, it has tainted my

903
01:17:33.239 --> 01:17:38.479
approach to all of this, and
unfortunately I had to be willing and and

904
01:17:38.520 --> 01:17:42.039
you know what, I'll say this
because I think it hurts research. I

905
01:17:42.159 --> 01:17:48.119
had to be willing to sacrifice whatever
friendship I had with Jaime Mussan. And

906
01:17:48.359 --> 01:17:54.239
I think that that doesn't speak well
to him as a researcher, because all

907
01:17:54.279 --> 01:17:59.119
we're doing is investigating and sharing research. And I think a lot of people

908
01:17:59.159 --> 01:18:00.439
feel like, oh, I don't
want him to get mad at me,

909
01:18:00.560 --> 01:18:06.760
so I better not come out and
just give my real opinion. And that's

910
01:18:06.840 --> 01:18:11.720
not good. That's not healthy for
research. And you know we shouldn't have

911
01:18:11.760 --> 01:18:16.000
to be afraid of being called what
I think you know, I don't even

912
01:18:16.039 --> 01:18:23.399
think I've shared this being called a
he said, I was, you know,

913
01:18:23.520 --> 01:18:29.880
essentially hurting its character, lying,
defamation, a character type of thing,

914
01:18:30.680 --> 01:18:33.760
just because I'm sharing essentially you all
and your research, which I know

915
01:18:33.880 --> 01:18:38.319
is carefully done. I know that
you guys don't mess around, and you

916
01:18:38.319 --> 01:18:44.600
would not risk your reputations. That
you have doubled and tripled and quadrupled checked

917
01:18:44.640 --> 01:18:46.880
everything you guys have done, which
you did and it turned out to be

918
01:18:47.399 --> 01:18:57.039
independently, verifiable and accurate. Which
having known you guys and communicated with you

919
01:18:57.079 --> 01:19:00.840
guys online, I knew that you
guys, if you guys are coming out

920
01:19:00.880 --> 01:19:05.640
with something, then it's going to
be something that's been thoroughly looked at.

921
01:19:08.119 --> 01:19:15.279
Oh and you know it had had
somehow this been evidence of extraterrestrial life because

922
01:19:15.319 --> 01:19:17.960
we had some we had a mixture
of people, you know, from from

923
01:19:18.079 --> 01:19:24.640
UFO proponents to some hardcore skeptics.
But you know even that even the heart

924
01:19:24.680 --> 01:19:27.960
like Tim Prenny for example, on
Lance Moody, I would cite that was

925
01:19:27.960 --> 01:19:33.439
an example that the more that the
skeptics or some people would even say to

926
01:19:33.520 --> 01:19:39.159
bunkers. But if these if there
had been, you know, anything to

927
01:19:39.840 --> 01:19:44.920
suggest this was extraterrestrial, we've been
happy to present that information as well.

928
01:19:45.000 --> 01:19:48.119
And you know, and it was
so fascinating with the build up to this,

929
01:19:48.279 --> 01:19:51.239
with it, you know, if
these, if these claims are true,

930
01:19:51.840 --> 01:19:57.039
but it was so disappointing that they
weren't, because this wasn't. See

931
01:19:57.119 --> 01:20:00.680
when when there's something like oh,
you know, even when there's an airplane

932
01:20:00.760 --> 01:20:03.319
mistaken as a as a UFO,
well you can learn something from that.

933
01:20:03.399 --> 01:20:08.279
You're like, Okay, here's the
flight plan that causes, here's the configuration

934
01:20:08.399 --> 01:20:11.520
of lights, and there's still something
to be learned. But with this,

935
01:20:11.560 --> 01:20:15.239
it just turned out to be such
a disappointing ways uh. And you know,

936
01:20:15.279 --> 01:20:17.760
it took so many people's time,
and I mean, and I can't

937
01:20:17.800 --> 01:20:24.039
believe how much time it took where
we were really drawn into it and once

938
01:20:24.119 --> 01:20:28.600
things kept building, we had to
keep on with it and keep pressing with

939
01:20:28.680 --> 01:20:31.199
it. And you know, it
definitely derails some of my personal research on

940
01:20:31.600 --> 01:20:36.439
the cash Landom case and as I
was working on. But you know,

941
01:20:36.479 --> 01:20:40.800
it was something we had to follow
through and luckily there were other people like

942
01:20:41.199 --> 01:20:45.720
a shepherd Johnson got involved and he
submitted this Freedom of Information and Act request

943
01:20:45.800 --> 01:20:49.479
and turned up these documents that included
photographs and uh, you know, so

944
01:20:49.920 --> 01:20:55.960
the you know, it's not just
as the placard. There's all this historical

945
01:20:56.000 --> 01:20:59.479
information that supports us. You know. It's so it's overwhelming and I think

946
01:21:00.079 --> 01:21:05.359
the you know, I think it's
conclusively solved. So what's what's disappointing to

947
01:21:05.399 --> 01:21:11.039
me is that we can look at
this and see, well, here's we

948
01:21:11.039 --> 01:21:13.880
don't know exactly why it went wrong, but you know, here's something went

949
01:21:13.920 --> 01:21:18.560
wrong, but it's it's conclusively proven, but there it's sort of a symptom

950
01:21:18.560 --> 01:21:23.239
in a way, and that this
sort of thing happens in other cases.

951
01:21:24.000 --> 01:21:28.119
But there's not a you know that
placard will say as a smoking gun that

952
01:21:28.119 --> 01:21:30.680
that blows the case up. There
are the things that we don't have this,

953
01:21:31.319 --> 01:21:34.800
but the other things need to be
looked at, you know, just

954
01:21:34.840 --> 01:21:42.039
about his heart and when this happens, I think people need to acknowledge it,

955
01:21:42.279 --> 01:21:45.600
say you know, here's you know, here's what went wrong, and

956
01:21:45.720 --> 01:21:54.439
you let it go and you admit
it, face facts, and it doesn't

957
01:21:54.439 --> 01:22:00.720
destroy uphology, and it should you
know, it stings, but it should

958
01:22:00.720 --> 01:22:01.960
make things stronger. It's like,
you know, if you can read stuff

959
01:22:02.199 --> 01:22:06.920
out like this and keep it from
happening again and bringing more of a scientific

960
01:22:06.960 --> 01:22:13.159
approach to things, and uh,
examine things from as many disciplines you can.

961
01:22:14.520 --> 01:22:21.279
It's like the I know, a
lot of UFO cases are very well,

962
01:22:21.279 --> 01:22:25.760
they're almost intangible, but there's there's
things that can be examined, you

963
01:22:25.760 --> 01:22:27.880
know. I mean if you can
prove something to happen at the location,

964
01:22:28.039 --> 01:22:31.640
and you know, see what holds
up and what what is strong enough to

965
01:22:31.640 --> 01:22:39.199
to to withstand scientific examination, you
know, and and keep investigating those things

966
01:22:39.239 --> 01:22:44.960
and these these these iffy things and
and you know, bory photographs and questionable

967
01:22:45.000 --> 01:22:48.600
material. I think that it's a
huge drain on people's resources and it can

968
01:22:48.640 --> 01:22:54.640
really mislead people, right. Yeah, well, I know you you probably

969
01:22:54.760 --> 01:22:59.640
let read and listened to every single
thing. And there was a lot out

970
01:22:59.680 --> 01:23:04.520
there about this case, at least
coming from the main characters involved. But

971
01:23:04.560 --> 01:23:09.279
I mean, the good thing for
me is at least when I get to

972
01:23:09.359 --> 01:23:12.359
highlight some of the good work done
by all of the people out there.

973
01:23:12.640 --> 01:23:15.119
And this is where we should take
this. I think as researchers, it

974
01:23:15.239 --> 01:23:23.319
gives us the ability to essentially network
and communicate with others perhaps that we haven't

975
01:23:23.359 --> 01:23:27.680
worked with before, and then it
widens our scope of people we can rely

976
01:23:27.800 --> 01:23:31.640
on and work with and to get
eyes on to give things, you know,

977
01:23:31.720 --> 01:23:38.880
the hard look that they need because
cases like caste landrum or whatever,

978
01:23:39.199 --> 01:23:41.880
you know, others like the media
is going to be much harder than we

979
01:23:41.960 --> 01:23:45.039
are on these cases, and so
we need to be really difficult. We

980
01:23:45.119 --> 01:23:48.640
need to take a hard look at
all of this if we want to present

981
01:23:48.680 --> 01:23:55.800
it as something that is credible.
And I think that is the goal of

982
01:23:56.279 --> 01:23:59.760
you know, ultimately, is to
get this out and to demonstrate to the

983
01:23:59.800 --> 01:24:04.000
main stream that you know, there's
a real phenomena that's that's true, and

984
01:24:04.119 --> 01:24:08.199
you know there are I was I
mentioned Blue Book a couple of times.

985
01:24:08.239 --> 01:24:12.479
You know, there's some great cases
in there, but they're they're not necessarily

986
01:24:12.520 --> 01:24:15.399
sexy. Sometimes there's just you know, there's this this object that appeared.

987
01:24:15.680 --> 01:24:20.439
You know, there were several witnesses, but it's not you know, it's

988
01:24:20.479 --> 01:24:25.680
not it's not like a Hollywood movie
script. You know, it doesn't you

989
01:24:25.720 --> 01:24:30.159
know, it's basically like like a
hit and run or a flyby. You

990
01:24:30.159 --> 01:24:31.560
know, you see it, you
get a good look. You know,

991
01:24:32.000 --> 01:24:36.239
you see that it's not a it's
it's not an earthly aircraft, and that

992
01:24:36.239 --> 01:24:42.279
can be sort of documented. But
there's this information limited, so you know,

993
01:24:42.319 --> 01:24:47.640
there's there's definitely things that are that
are worthy of research, but there's

994
01:24:47.640 --> 01:24:53.079
there's too much I think there's like
too much emphasis on on things as kind

995
01:24:53.079 --> 01:24:56.000
of as entertainment. You know,
there's definitely an appetite for it, people

996
01:24:56.039 --> 01:25:00.840
are curious, but the you know, the scientific study has got to be

997
01:25:01.000 --> 01:25:05.760
done. And I think that your
point about about networking is great because you

998
01:25:05.760 --> 01:25:11.439
know, the more people we can
get involved and and to you know,

999
01:25:11.520 --> 01:25:15.640
continue to examine things, as I
said earlier, from from different uh,

1000
01:25:16.239 --> 01:25:20.920
different perspectives, different scientific disciplines.
You know, I think that's uh,

1001
01:25:21.279 --> 01:25:27.079
that's something that could be encouraged and
I would definitely like for more mainstream scientists

1002
01:25:27.199 --> 01:25:31.079
that become interested. And uh,
I'm not sure quite how we learned things

1003
01:25:31.079 --> 01:25:40.000
in but you know that the presenting
clean cases, you know, stripped is

1004
01:25:40.079 --> 01:25:45.760
the sensationalism is one way to begin
that exactly. So we've gone a bit

1005
01:25:45.840 --> 01:25:48.760
over and I want to ask you
one last question before we leave, and

1006
01:25:48.800 --> 01:26:00.600
that is where does the name blue
Blurry Lines come from? It is my

1007
01:26:00.239 --> 01:26:04.920
first choice was taken and so it
was my second, but it kind of

1008
01:26:05.199 --> 01:26:13.760
reflects on well, I was the
fact that so many things the details pictures

1009
01:26:13.760 --> 01:26:16.760
are glory and indistinct, and then
lines, you know, were things that

1010
01:26:16.800 --> 01:26:20.520
I were writing about it, So
it just kind of had a double triple

1011
01:26:20.600 --> 01:26:26.800
meaning. And also also something that
I tend to do my first drafts on

1012
01:26:26.840 --> 01:26:31.079
a notebook paper, so they have
some blue lines, so you know,

1013
01:26:31.159 --> 01:26:34.319
kind of a combination of things here. Yeah, I was curious just because

1014
01:26:34.319 --> 01:26:39.560
it always makes me think of Blue
Book, because I'm fascinated by Blue Book

1015
01:26:39.600 --> 01:26:45.239
and the cases in there, and
it is blurry, I mean, everything

1016
01:26:45.359 --> 01:26:46.880
is. You have Heine's point of
view, who is you know, the

1017
01:26:47.640 --> 01:26:51.399
astronomer consultant to Blue Book, who
had a different point of view than some

1018
01:26:51.479 --> 01:26:58.279
of the investigators, and you know
it's used as this investigation to show there

1019
01:26:58.359 --> 01:27:01.520
isn't a phenomenon, when really I
think you can argue that it shows there

1020
01:27:01.680 --> 01:27:06.560
is a phenomena. And so it's
a blue blurry line to me blue Book.

1021
01:27:06.640 --> 01:27:12.159
So that's where I always thinking of
it as I was curious that what

1022
01:27:12.199 --> 01:27:15.760
your original intent was. I have
a closing thought for you. Okay,

1023
01:27:15.800 --> 01:27:18.560
great, this is this is advice. First of all, if you're if

1024
01:27:18.600 --> 01:27:25.039
you're interested in UFOs, you better
have a huge tolerance for ambiguity. There's

1025
01:27:25.039 --> 01:27:27.640
a lot of things that are going
to be unsolved. You got these conflicting

1026
01:27:27.720 --> 01:27:34.039
details. So for your mental health, find a hobby, needle point or

1027
01:27:34.920 --> 01:27:41.239
something that you can build puzzles,
something you can complete and have a sense

1028
01:27:41.239 --> 01:27:45.359
of satisfaction because you're not going to
get a lot of answers and the pieces

1029
01:27:45.359 --> 01:27:48.159
that are not all going to fit
in your UFO investigations. So you know,

1030
01:27:49.399 --> 01:27:55.800
learn or guy me or something that
you know, something you can finish

1031
01:27:55.840 --> 01:28:00.960
and complete, maybe put on your
shelf aimen to that. I think that

1032
01:28:00.079 --> 01:28:05.560
you make an excellent point, one
that I always make. There are no

1033
01:28:06.000 --> 01:28:12.960
solid answers when it comes to this
stuff except for the roswell slides where a

1034
01:28:13.159 --> 01:28:17.600
mummy or a mummified child. No, but great, excellent. Thank you

1035
01:28:17.720 --> 01:28:23.000
so much for coming on the show
and sharing this stuff. The cash landrom

1036
01:28:23.079 --> 01:28:26.680
case. I'm so glad that you
tackle that because it shouldn't be forgotten.

1037
01:28:27.079 --> 01:28:31.239
It's such an extraordinary case. It's
been wonderful getting to know you the last

1038
01:28:31.279 --> 01:28:33.760
couple of years, and I'm so
happy to have you on the show.

1039
01:28:33.800 --> 01:28:39.399
But thank you again for joining us. And this was a great discussion.

1040
01:28:39.439 --> 01:28:44.199
I had a lot of fun.
Thank you. Thank you so much to

1041
01:28:44.319 --> 01:28:47.600
Kurt for joining us today. Such
an interesting case. Cash Landrum is one

1042
01:28:47.640 --> 01:28:54.039
of my favorite cases. We talked
a little bit before about John Schusler,

1043
01:28:54.479 --> 01:29:00.399
who used to be the move On
director in Colorado when I first got involved

1044
01:29:00.439 --> 01:29:02.279
with move On, so he's always
served as kind of a mentor for me,

1045
01:29:02.720 --> 01:29:05.720
and I know this is one of
the cases he's really into. I've

1046
01:29:05.720 --> 01:29:10.640
got his book and had read it, and this is just an extraordinary case

1047
01:29:10.920 --> 01:29:14.439
that seems to get more and more
mysterious the more we look into it.

1048
01:29:14.640 --> 01:29:16.560
So you know, I've interviewed some
people who have talked about the case a

1049
01:29:16.600 --> 01:29:21.039
little bit here and there, but
such a strange and extraordinary case. I

1050
01:29:21.039 --> 01:29:26.359
think you all will agree. And
it's wonderful that Kurt has taken us on

1051
01:29:26.600 --> 01:29:32.079
to look more into it. And
Kurt is one of these new UFO resources

1052
01:29:32.119 --> 01:29:36.199
out there that it's great to have
him. He's doing some great work.

1053
01:29:36.279 --> 01:29:40.760
So thank you so much for joining
us. Kurt. Remember you can find

1054
01:29:40.840 --> 01:29:44.079
him at Blue Blurry Lines. We
talked about it quite a bit, but

1055
01:29:44.720 --> 01:29:48.279
google that and you'll be able to
find his website and see more about this

1056
01:29:48.479 --> 01:29:51.880
great case. So thank you so
much. Thank you too, Martin Willis

1057
01:29:51.920 --> 01:29:58.039
for trying to connect with us earlier
for the show. We actually did talk

1058
01:29:58.079 --> 01:30:01.359
for a little while and then it
kind of went offline and unfortunately couldn't get

1059
01:30:01.359 --> 01:30:04.640
it working. So thank you so
much to Martin. Of course, he

1060
01:30:04.680 --> 01:30:10.479
does podcast UFO and he'll join us
again next week, assuming we have a

1061
01:30:10.680 --> 01:30:14.239
show next week. I'm sure we
will. But you never know, people,

1062
01:30:14.319 --> 01:30:18.439
it's just it's such a fast and
furious, you know industry, this

1063
01:30:18.680 --> 01:30:24.079
UFO thinks, so you never know. But you can find all of the

1064
01:30:24.079 --> 01:30:27.680
stories that we talked about at Openminds
dot tv. You can also find the

1065
01:30:27.760 --> 01:30:31.359
latest Open Minds UFO Report, which
is a YouTube you know, web series

1066
01:30:31.359 --> 01:30:38.079
that we're doing bringing you UFO news
on a weekly basis via video. So,

1067
01:30:38.560 --> 01:30:42.439
like I said, we talked about
on this last one the Welsh government

1068
01:30:43.560 --> 01:30:47.119
responding to the UFO questions in Klingon, and we interviewed Nick Pope, who

1069
01:30:47.239 --> 01:30:51.680
used to work for the UK Ministry
of Defense because one of those questions that

1070
01:30:51.720 --> 01:30:59.159
they responded to was asking whether the
Welsh government worked with the Ministry of Defense.

1071
01:30:59.199 --> 01:31:02.279
So we talked to nickout a lot
of stuff related to that on the

1072
01:31:02.359 --> 01:31:06.039
interview, so you could check that
out at openminds dot tv. You also

1073
01:31:06.079 --> 01:31:11.880
find more information about the UFO Congress. We'll be posting information about speakers soon.

1074
01:31:11.960 --> 01:31:14.479
I just like to be really really
careful. I like to have all

1075
01:31:14.520 --> 01:31:18.319
the paperwork in hand before we post
the speakers because I want to be sure

1076
01:31:18.319 --> 01:31:21.960
it's rock solid, so I don't
post a speaker and then something happens and

1077
01:31:23.000 --> 01:31:27.000
they can't make it. So I
want to have it rock solid before I

1078
01:31:27.039 --> 01:31:30.279
do that. And I like to
have at least you know, well at

1079
01:31:30.359 --> 01:31:32.800
least half the speakers are around that
to post once at once you can see

1080
01:31:32.840 --> 01:31:36.039
boom, wow, look at all
these cool people. And it is a

1081
01:31:36.079 --> 01:31:40.199
lot of cool people who are going
to be coming to the conference. What's

1082
01:31:40.199 --> 01:31:45.199
cool about our conference is UFO researchers
come even if they're not speaking, So

1083
01:31:45.800 --> 01:31:48.840
like San Friedman, I know will
be there this year. Travis Walton comes

1084
01:31:48.880 --> 01:31:53.560
every year. Ben Hansen comes every
year, although he does the SkyWatch,

1085
01:31:53.600 --> 01:31:57.520
So a lot of people come even
if they're not speaking, because it's just

1086
01:31:57.600 --> 01:32:00.479
the biggest one. Everybody's there and
you can meet and you can network,

1087
01:32:00.479 --> 01:32:02.239
and it's a lot of fun.
You can get a lot of people who

1088
01:32:02.239 --> 01:32:06.159
are interested in the topic if you
have some books to sell or something like

1089
01:32:06.199 --> 01:32:11.920
that. So our conference is always
a lot of fun, and we'll have

1090
01:32:12.000 --> 01:32:15.439
speakers up soon. I got to
tell you, though, Every year the

1091
01:32:16.159 --> 01:32:23.119
room sell out at the House Hotel
sooner and sooner and already, oh my

1092
01:32:23.279 --> 01:32:26.760
gosh, earlier than ever. We're
going to be sold out of room,

1093
01:32:26.880 --> 01:32:30.359
so be sure and reserve a room
right now. You don't have to put

1094
01:32:30.399 --> 01:32:34.319
money down to reserve a room,
so go reserve your room as soon as

1095
01:32:34.359 --> 01:32:40.239
possible, so you have that taken
care of, even if you haven't registered

1096
01:32:40.319 --> 01:32:44.920
yet. But you'll want to register
too, at least by October first,

1097
01:32:44.920 --> 01:32:48.000
because that's when you get the cheap
rates and you get the best deals.

1098
01:32:49.279 --> 01:32:54.640
I did tell you guys too.
We had a World UFO Day actually sale

1099
01:32:54.640 --> 01:32:57.359
on tickets, and we had a
lot of people take advantage of that,

1100
01:32:57.760 --> 01:33:01.720
which was really smart because that way
you could get tickets for even cheaper.

1101
01:33:01.840 --> 01:33:06.439
So right now, it's where the
tickets are at the lowest, and we've

1102
01:33:06.479 --> 01:33:12.600
got more registrations than ever already,
so everything's looking great. And I want

1103
01:33:12.600 --> 01:33:15.920
to thank you all who have registered, who come to the conference every year,

1104
01:33:15.520 --> 01:33:17.880
or if you've only been once,
you know, thank you all for

1105
01:33:18.399 --> 01:33:21.960
joining us. I know many others
have wanted to join us and haven't had

1106
01:33:23.000 --> 01:33:27.359
the opportunity. So hopefully this year
is the year we're going to have a

1107
01:33:27.359 --> 01:33:30.479
great lineup. You can trust me
on that, and I'll tell you more

1108
01:33:30.520 --> 01:33:33.319
about that as time comes. So
open minds dot tv. Also, if

1109
01:33:33.359 --> 01:33:39.840
you're not on our email news list
newsletter, we're trying to send emails on

1110
01:33:40.359 --> 01:33:44.560
a you know, bi weekly basis
to update you guys on what's going on

1111
01:33:44.600 --> 01:33:47.720
with the website, what's going on
with Open mind UFO Report, what's going

1112
01:33:47.760 --> 01:33:53.359
on with Open Minds UFO Radio,
and also what's going on with the UFO

1113
01:33:53.479 --> 01:33:56.800
Congress. So we want to keep
you up to date on everything, whatever

1114
01:33:56.840 --> 01:34:00.520
your interest is. Hopefully it's everything. So go to open Minds dot tv

1115
01:34:00.600 --> 01:34:04.439
in the upper right hand corner.
You're gonna see some a little box there

1116
01:34:04.720 --> 01:34:10.039
where you can put in your email
address and submit it and then join our

1117
01:34:10.119 --> 01:34:15.399
email list so you can get those
bi weekly emails. You can also just

1118
01:34:15.479 --> 01:34:20.079
email us at contact at open minds
dot tv. You can email us for

1119
01:34:20.159 --> 01:34:25.399
anything to that and I get that, and I can and the rest of

1120
01:34:25.479 --> 01:34:29.279
us do so we can address any
of your concerns or be sure to get

1121
01:34:29.319 --> 01:34:32.239
you on the email list that way. So again, I want to think

1122
01:34:32.279 --> 01:34:36.960
Caleb Hanks, who does the opening
end close music. You can find his

1123
01:34:38.359 --> 01:34:43.199
information on the radio page at open
minds dot tv. He does something called

1124
01:34:43.199 --> 01:34:47.279
the clerk Chronicles where he posts this
music for free. But he also has

1125
01:34:47.319 --> 01:34:51.079
a comic book there that is really
cool. He's an artist. This guy

1126
01:34:51.199 --> 01:34:56.199
is just so creative and he's funny. This guy's hilarious, but he's an

1127
01:34:56.319 --> 01:35:00.800
artist. His comic book is more
serious. But you and find all of

1128
01:35:00.840 --> 01:35:03.479
his work there. Thank him.
I want to thank you very much for

1129
01:35:03.520 --> 01:35:06.880
the opening and close music, which
I love, and I want to thank

1130
01:35:06.920 --> 01:35:14.079
you all for once again listening.
You guys are frigging awesome, but be

1131
01:35:14.159 --> 01:36:08.199
sure to join us again. Thank
you and audio smooth photos, your motions

1132
01:36:08.560 --> 01:36:11.039
sound The class Trees Ofmarraine