WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:06.280 Sometimes a hero wears a cape. Sometimes heroes do science, and sometimes heroes 2 00:00:06.320 --> 00:00:10.599 have to put high prow officers in their place while learning how to be good 3 00:00:10.640 --> 00:00:15.320 commanders in the Napoleonic Wars and also having sex with a lot of women. 4 00:00:15.880 --> 00:00:20.559 We're talking about Sharp, Richard Sharp, the star of British novels and then 5 00:00:20.800 --> 00:00:25.399 British TV shows that I've said we're BBC, they're actually I TV and it's 6 00:00:25.600 --> 00:00:30.640 Sean Bean in a series of basically TV movies that have a lot of great 7 00:00:30.719 --> 00:00:35.399 questions to ask about the Napoleonic Wars, about warfare, about class, about 8 00:00:35.479 --> 00:00:39.000 gender, and we're gonna talk about all of that with myself and Paul Happy 9 00:00:39.200 --> 00:00:52.719 right after this welcome back from Matthew host I am joined as somewhat regularly, 10 00:00:52.759 --> 00:00:56.200 but still not an actual co host by any stretching the imagination. Paul Happy, 11 00:00:56.240 --> 00:00:59.920 Paul, how are we doing today? We're doing good. I mentioned 12 00:01:00.079 --> 00:01:06.439 on our last podcasts that we recorded podcast that we recorded very recently, like 13 00:01:06.519 --> 00:01:11.200 this morning, that that I didn't get a lot of sleep last night. 14 00:01:11.239 --> 00:01:17.599 It's not because I stayed up watching more episodes of Sharp. I stayed up 15 00:01:17.920 --> 00:01:19.680 because I couldn't fall asleep and I realized I wasn't going to fall asleep, 16 00:01:19.840 --> 00:01:25.920 so I ended up watching another episode of Sharp, which is really a series 17 00:01:26.000 --> 00:01:33.640 of films. Yeah, it's it's funny because it's listed on the streaming service 18 00:01:33.640 --> 00:01:36.799 worth listed as having seasons, and I said this to Paul, and Paul 19 00:01:36.879 --> 00:01:40.560 was like, what do you mean seasons, because it was if you remember, 20 00:01:40.599 --> 00:01:45.560 during PBS pledge drives, they would often show BBC stuff. That's where 21 00:01:45.560 --> 00:01:48.400 I watched I Claudius the first time. That's where I watched Faulty Towers a 22 00:01:48.439 --> 00:01:52.120 lot of other stuff. This Jordinaring a little bit later, and so I 23 00:01:52.159 --> 00:01:55.480 never caught it originally, but Paul had seen it, and it is first 24 00:01:55.519 --> 00:01:59.680 of all, so there's a series of novels about this character named Richard Sharp, 25 00:02:00.079 --> 00:02:01.239 who is based on a real character by the way, I don't get 26 00:02:01.239 --> 00:02:07.280 into that in a little bit. And ITV, this British television station, 27 00:02:07.640 --> 00:02:12.199 basically made a series of movies but they were released on television, and I 28 00:02:12.240 --> 00:02:15.759 guess they kind of have like things that hold them together, so they're grouped 29 00:02:15.759 --> 00:02:17.360 in seasons. I think maybe they were released all the same year or something 30 00:02:17.400 --> 00:02:23.039 like that, but they're all about one an hour twenty two an hour forty. 31 00:02:23.479 --> 00:02:25.560 They all have a fairly distinctive beginning, middle, and end, and 32 00:02:25.599 --> 00:02:30.639 then many of them pick like continue characters or continue plot lines from the other. 33 00:02:30.039 --> 00:02:35.199 But they're basically a series of standalone movies, and in this we're basically 34 00:02:35.199 --> 00:02:38.360 going to introduce you to the characters, the concepts, the ideas that are 35 00:02:38.360 --> 00:02:44.879 being discussed. Reference some things from I have seen the first five movies what 36 00:02:45.039 --> 00:02:47.840 are listed online in season one? In season two, Paul has seen all 37 00:02:47.879 --> 00:02:52.159 of them at us well, most of them at various points, but some 38 00:02:52.360 --> 00:02:54.000 many many years ago, and read a lot of the books. We're gonna 39 00:02:54.039 --> 00:02:58.280 be talking about them in general. Some of these specific movies we may go 40 00:02:58.319 --> 00:03:02.159 into more detail about, but we'll give you to kind of a brief overview 41 00:03:02.159 --> 00:03:05.400 of what they're about. Who the characterist? What would you start with, 42 00:03:05.479 --> 00:03:08.680 Paul? What was it true to these novels and books? And were ones 43 00:03:08.719 --> 00:03:12.360 that you suggested to me as things we can talk about. Yeah, So 44 00:03:12.680 --> 00:03:17.759 my mom goes through actor phases where basically she'll see something think an actor is 45 00:03:17.759 --> 00:03:22.800 fantastic in it, be correct, of course, because her acting taste is 46 00:03:22.840 --> 00:03:28.599 impeccable, and then watch literally everything that person has ever been in. And 47 00:03:28.879 --> 00:03:36.080 so she watched an adaptation of Clarissa, the Samuel Richardson novel and either the 48 00:03:36.479 --> 00:03:42.520 or one of the longest were books or novels in the English thing. It's 49 00:03:42.520 --> 00:03:45.960 like a million words, like fifteen hundred pages. It's ridiculous. So they 50 00:03:45.960 --> 00:03:49.360 made a series of that. Even with all that words, this Clarissa does 51 00:03:49.439 --> 00:03:53.039 not explain at all. It's a different movie, different care right, Okay, 52 00:03:53.120 --> 00:04:02.039 yeah, so Sharp played Sharp. Sean Bean played the I guess villain 53 00:04:02.159 --> 00:04:09.439 antagonist in that Lovelace, right, And so then my mom started just watching 54 00:04:09.439 --> 00:04:14.879 everything it was in, which included this Sharp series. And she had had 55 00:04:14.879 --> 00:04:21.160 this real interest in the Napoleonic Wars and and Napoleon I think more more specifically, 56 00:04:23.160 --> 00:04:26.240 probably less about the wars and more about you know, the other stuff 57 00:04:26.279 --> 00:04:30.279 going on. But so so she was watching these and she and she was 58 00:04:30.319 --> 00:04:32.480 just like, I think you might like this, you know, and you 59 00:04:32.519 --> 00:04:36.000 know, we recorded them on VHS, as one did at the time in 60 00:04:36.040 --> 00:04:41.959 the This was probably like nineteen ninety seven, because when I remember really watching 61 00:04:42.000 --> 00:04:46.319 these was after I'd left college, which you know, I attended very briefly. 62 00:04:48.560 --> 00:04:54.120 I read more books in the next six months than I had read in 63 00:04:54.160 --> 00:04:58.759 the entirety of high school and college. And part of that was this where 64 00:04:58.879 --> 00:05:02.720 I watched this series. I think it's a really good series, and it 65 00:05:03.040 --> 00:05:09.879 sparked an interest in like history generally, right and specifically, you know, 66 00:05:09.920 --> 00:05:13.720 I read all the novels that were available at the time, I believe. 67 00:05:14.160 --> 00:05:18.720 Then some more came out later that were about sort of backstory stuff, but 68 00:05:18.759 --> 00:05:24.000 I read all the main, you know, the core novels, and watched 69 00:05:24.040 --> 00:05:28.759 the entirety of the series as had been produced by then. I think May 70 00:05:28.800 --> 00:05:33.800 of ninety seven is you know, spoilers. It's titled Sharp's Waterloo, right, 71 00:05:34.199 --> 00:05:39.560 and you know, as one who's heard anything about the Napoleonic Wars, 72 00:05:39.839 --> 00:05:44.480 that probably rings a bell. Maybe you're thinking about Abba, but generally it 73 00:05:44.519 --> 00:05:47.000 probably you know, gives you an indication what happens in the stories. Well, 74 00:05:47.000 --> 00:05:51.439 and even the first line of the Abba song says, ah at Waterloo 75 00:05:51.519 --> 00:05:56.360 Napoleon was did surrender? Right, So even if even if you're just an 76 00:05:56.360 --> 00:05:59.720 Abba fan, you still know what we're talking about. And then they went 77 00:05:59.759 --> 00:06:02.480 and some in two thousand and six, which I do not believe I've seen, 78 00:06:03.120 --> 00:06:08.759 and those are there's like stuff that takes place in India, which I'm 79 00:06:08.800 --> 00:06:14.720 really curious to see how this character and the story plays in the British occupation 80 00:06:14.759 --> 00:06:18.560 of India, right, So I'm curious about that, but also kind of 81 00:06:18.560 --> 00:06:23.480 afraid. You know, it's interesting because in this war, it's like if 82 00:06:23.519 --> 00:06:29.000 you had to ask me which side I would be on, Like I'm not 83 00:06:29.160 --> 00:06:33.000 a proponent of Napoleon and the you know, the French Empire becoming an empire 84 00:06:33.000 --> 00:06:36.600 and going in and invading a bunch of countries, but at the same time 85 00:06:36.680 --> 00:06:44.519 like overthrowing the monarchy, overthrowing you know, theocratic rule. Yeah, let's 86 00:06:44.560 --> 00:06:47.600 do that, you know. So so it's interesting. But you know, 87 00:06:47.639 --> 00:06:50.920 the series, I'd say it doesn't paint a picture of you know, Rah 88 00:06:51.079 --> 00:06:55.759 rah rah Mary Old England. You know, it's like it's i think, 89 00:06:55.839 --> 00:07:00.480 very critical of a lot of things about the culture and about maybe not as 90 00:07:00.560 --> 00:07:03.360 much specifically the war itself, because I think, you know, thinking about 91 00:07:03.399 --> 00:07:06.439 this series and I'm like, yeah, is this the last like war that 92 00:07:08.040 --> 00:07:09.959 you know, the British can be like, yeah, yeah, we won 93 00:07:10.040 --> 00:07:14.079 that one, like we just we just won it, you know. Yeah. 94 00:07:14.120 --> 00:07:15.639 I mean there's a number of other colonial wars they get to say that, 95 00:07:15.680 --> 00:07:19.399 Okay, for the well one that you can maybe feel good about the 96 00:07:19.439 --> 00:07:24.399 way, like saving Private Ryan. You know in the US people made that 97 00:07:24.439 --> 00:07:27.920 and we're like, ah, yeah, you know we this is a war 98 00:07:28.040 --> 00:07:30.040 that the US was fighting against the Nazis, and so we can make a 99 00:07:30.360 --> 00:07:33.160 GungHo kind of war movie about it as opposed to be if you want to 100 00:07:33.160 --> 00:07:36.360 listen to our thoughts on America being one percent the good guy in World War 101 00:07:36.439 --> 00:07:41.560 two. Last week we put an episode out about Gojira Godzilla movies, and 102 00:07:41.680 --> 00:07:44.199 that won't have some thoughts on that. But for this, yeah, let 103 00:07:44.240 --> 00:07:47.319 me give a quick kind of summary of what these movies are about. So 104 00:07:47.600 --> 00:07:50.040 in the first one, and there will be some spoilers here. We're not 105 00:07:50.079 --> 00:07:54.879 gonna spoil it too much, but you know it, I think it's gonna 106 00:07:54.879 --> 00:07:57.439 be kind of trailer level of spoilers. We can may go deeper. Agree 107 00:07:57.600 --> 00:08:01.639 you can always stop and watch them and then come back. But basically, 108 00:08:01.680 --> 00:08:07.160 the movies start with Richard Sharp as an enlisted man, not an office sergeant. 109 00:08:07.240 --> 00:08:11.439 It's a very sergeant, a very specific distinction in England. I was 110 00:08:11.519 --> 00:08:18.360 going to learn. And he happens to be on a battlefield at the same 111 00:08:18.399 --> 00:08:22.040 time as the person who will eventually become Wellington, the Duke of Wellington. 112 00:08:22.240 --> 00:08:26.279 I think his name is Welsley. At this point, he is almost killed 113 00:08:26.279 --> 00:08:31.360 by the French and Sharp rescues them and kills the French snipers who are trying 114 00:08:31.399 --> 00:08:35.000 to kill Wellesley and the people are trying to attack him. Wallsey is deeply 115 00:08:35.039 --> 00:08:41.000 impressed by him and immediately promotes him to lieutenant, which kind of kick starts 116 00:08:41.080 --> 00:08:45.960 the plot because it does two things. One, it puts him in command, 117 00:08:46.080 --> 00:08:48.200 and so a lot of the movies are then about him learning to be 118 00:08:48.240 --> 00:08:52.399 in command, and then also about him dealing with command and then the people 119 00:08:52.399 --> 00:08:56.720 he's commander of. But also, and we learned this in the first movie. 120 00:08:58.320 --> 00:09:01.000 In England at the time, as many societies, but especially in England, 121 00:09:01.200 --> 00:09:09.399 there's a very rigid class system in India. There's a very rigid class 122 00:09:09.480 --> 00:09:13.960 system in England that applies to the army as well. And part of that 123 00:09:13.120 --> 00:09:20.159 is that officers are all gentlemen, and by gentlemen, which mean like the 124 00:09:20.159 --> 00:09:24.320 way you use that today, it specifically means nobleman people from the upper classes. 125 00:09:24.399 --> 00:09:30.399 In Britain, I think it specifically means part of the nobility in some 126 00:09:30.440 --> 00:09:33.399 ways, like landed people in some way, but it may also mean people 127 00:09:33.399 --> 00:09:35.039 who are in the kind of bought their way into the upper class. And 128 00:09:35.120 --> 00:09:43.840 certainly at this time people could buy officerships with no actual military training. It 129 00:09:43.200 --> 00:09:48.000 did happen from time to time that a person would be enlisted from basically promoted 130 00:09:48.080 --> 00:09:52.879 from the enlisted men into being an officer, but it was often regarded as 131 00:09:52.919 --> 00:09:58.480 a bad idea, and so most of the officers are very reluctant to have 132 00:09:58.559 --> 00:10:01.120 Sharp be an officer, and they're constant talking about how he doesn't know the 133 00:10:01.159 --> 00:10:03.960 right manners. There's an idea of like, you know, you know, 134 00:10:03.200 --> 00:10:07.799 men are brutes and so they must be led by a gentleman, and we're 135 00:10:07.840 --> 00:10:11.600 obviously frequently given the proof that that is not correct by any means. It's 136 00:10:11.679 --> 00:10:18.240 very much alike you know, man from the hard scrabble does good. But 137 00:10:18.320 --> 00:10:22.840 an interesting twist on this trope that I think actually really works and does feel 138 00:10:22.840 --> 00:10:26.080 believable. Some of the people who most object to him being an officer are 139 00:10:26.120 --> 00:10:30.600 not just the other officers, but the other enlisted men, because they're also 140 00:10:30.720 --> 00:10:33.720 used to like they've kind of brought into a lot of this system and have 141 00:10:33.759 --> 00:10:37.240 a real sense of like, no, no, no, it's got to 142 00:10:37.240 --> 00:10:39.679 be one of those officers who commands us. I'm not going to listen to 143 00:10:39.679 --> 00:10:41.080 one of us, just another you know, piece of scum like us. 144 00:10:41.720 --> 00:10:45.279 And part of that is that part of that is I think a sense of 145 00:10:45.320 --> 00:10:48.679 like, you know, we all have to stay on the bottom or else, 146 00:10:48.720 --> 00:10:50.360 you know, if anyone rises at the top, then we have to 147 00:10:50.399 --> 00:10:52.600 wonder why we aren't rising to the top, and the unfairness of that, 148 00:10:52.679 --> 00:10:56.360 and like, there's a lot of different reasons, but definitely they're very uncomfortable 149 00:10:56.360 --> 00:11:01.559 with him being an officer, and so with that kind of general tensions set 150 00:11:01.639 --> 00:11:07.039 up, he then goes on a lot of adventures, and they're the ones 151 00:11:07.120 --> 00:11:09.639 we've seen, at least they're set durning what's called the Peninsula Campaign of the 152 00:11:09.720 --> 00:11:16.480 Napoleonic Wars, which is starting in around seven and going all the way into 153 00:11:16.759 --> 00:11:22.720 eighteen fifteen. Eventually. This is the fight where Napoleon had invaded Spain, 154 00:11:24.519 --> 00:11:28.519 put his brother onto the throne of Spain, and basically been kind of ruling 155 00:11:28.559 --> 00:11:33.320 Spain as a client state. A lot of the Spanish were fighting back, 156 00:11:33.679 --> 00:11:37.519 and the English joined the Spanish in that fight, and so it's a fight 157 00:11:37.639 --> 00:11:41.840 theoretically of the French against the English and Spanish, but there's a lot of 158 00:11:41.840 --> 00:11:43.480 times where the Spanish are not really quite sure where they fit, or different 159 00:11:43.480 --> 00:11:48.360 sides of Spanish or fighting against each other, and then Sharpe just gets to 160 00:11:48.360 --> 00:11:52.759 have a lot of fun adventures in the midst of all that. I made 161 00:11:52.759 --> 00:11:56.039 a reference to his love life. I have often wondered why Sean Bean, 162 00:11:56.120 --> 00:11:58.279 who I think is a very attractive person in a pretty particular kind of way, 163 00:11:58.399 --> 00:12:03.039 isn't often presented as a love interest in the things he's in. Apparently 164 00:12:03.039 --> 00:12:07.279 it's because he did all of that in this show. The only women who 165 00:12:07.279 --> 00:12:11.440 he's not paired with romantically, it's because they've already been established, are paired 166 00:12:11.480 --> 00:12:15.360 with one of his men or to someone else. I read a description of 167 00:12:15.399 --> 00:12:20.639 the novels. The novels say that they are times where he trying The exact 168 00:12:20.720 --> 00:12:26.759 quote was he soldiered, fought, and shagged his way through the Napoleonic Wars. 169 00:12:26.840 --> 00:12:30.320 So apparently that's common. I think there's a they definitely feel like kind 170 00:12:30.320 --> 00:12:33.080 of like a play on the James Bond trope in British literature. In these 171 00:12:33.120 --> 00:12:37.960 books, But yeah, I think so there are a lot of fun there's 172 00:12:37.000 --> 00:12:43.639 sometimes very powerful emotional stuff. The fight scenes are for television in the nineties 173 00:12:45.039 --> 00:12:46.639 in Britain. I think, you know, it's not the most realistic looking 174 00:12:46.679 --> 00:12:50.080 stuff sometimes, but I think it gives you a pretty accurate picture of what 175 00:12:50.120 --> 00:12:52.000 warfare at the time would have been like. And they're pretty fun scenes. 176 00:12:52.720 --> 00:12:56.360 And yeah, I think they just raised a lot of fun questions. Did 177 00:12:56.360 --> 00:12:58.279 I give kind of a good summary of the main overport? What did I 178 00:12:58.320 --> 00:13:01.519 miss? Yeah, I think that's that's the gist of it. You know, 179 00:13:01.679 --> 00:13:07.519 I think I would just highlight a couple of secondary characters that I wouldn't 180 00:13:07.879 --> 00:13:13.799 without getting too deeply into them. But yeah, well, first you mentioned 181 00:13:13.879 --> 00:13:18.200 James Bond, and it's funny because I think the first thing I actually literally 182 00:13:18.200 --> 00:13:20.919 saw him in was Golden Eye. Oh. I didn't even know he's in 183 00:13:20.960 --> 00:13:24.360 there. He plays Double O six, He's he's the spoilers for Golden Eye, 184 00:13:24.679 --> 00:13:31.080 the main antagonist. Oh, he plays Alec and he probably got that 185 00:13:31.200 --> 00:13:35.919 role because he did the Sharp series. You know, I saw him the 186 00:13:35.919 --> 00:13:37.639 one thing, but I didn't even like, I didn't even realize it. 187 00:13:37.679 --> 00:13:41.120 I went back and saw it and you know, the nice thing about the 188 00:13:41.240 --> 00:13:45.200 you know, the Sharp series is like, if you feel like watching something 189 00:13:46.000 --> 00:13:54.159 where Sean Bean survives two hours of stories, you know, he gets lots 190 00:13:54.200 --> 00:13:58.799 of love and he doesn't get killed exactly, It's like then everything I saw 191 00:13:58.879 --> 00:14:01.759 him in since then I was like, what the heck, where's the guy 192 00:14:01.799 --> 00:14:05.440 I saw in Sharp? I mean the acting is similar, but you know, 193 00:14:05.960 --> 00:14:11.039 yeah, I'd say just two kind of critical characters. One is Sergeant 194 00:14:11.120 --> 00:14:13.879 Harper, who is not a sergeant at first, right, Sharp isn't put 195 00:14:13.879 --> 00:14:18.080 in control of this little squad called the you know, the Chosen Men, 196 00:14:18.159 --> 00:14:22.279 where they're like supposed to be crack shots. They're supposed to be like particularly 197 00:14:22.480 --> 00:14:26.039 good soldiers. So they've all been recognized for their excellence, right and given 198 00:14:26.120 --> 00:14:30.360 like one stripe, which I think is like kind of like corporal, although 199 00:14:30.360 --> 00:14:33.519 maybe it's not actually corporal. Yeah, there's a whole thing about Chosen Man 200 00:14:33.639 --> 00:14:37.279 being this sort of like official, unofficial position in the British military. But 201 00:14:37.360 --> 00:14:41.759 in this I think they're kind of like an early proto version of what we 202 00:14:41.879 --> 00:14:43.960 think of today as a special forces unit. Right, They're not just okay, 203 00:14:45.000 --> 00:14:46.720 you have ten regiments on the line and this is the fifth Regiment. 204 00:14:48.080 --> 00:14:50.200 They're often sent like behind enemy lines to do something, or to go to 205 00:14:50.240 --> 00:14:54.879 a scouting mission or sometimes much to Sharp objections, a spying mission, right 206 00:14:54.919 --> 00:15:03.080 exactly. And they so Harper kind of becomes he becomes the elevated one within 207 00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:05.879 them, the way you know, Sharp's been risen out of the ranks to 208 00:15:05.879 --> 00:15:09.720 become an officer. And their dynamic, I think it's really interesting. I 209 00:15:09.759 --> 00:15:15.480 think we can get into more later. And then Brian Cox also is in 210 00:15:15.519 --> 00:15:20.120 the series as a spy master, you know, yes, basically I guess 211 00:15:20.159 --> 00:15:22.480 playing the same role as in The Bourne Identity and The Long Kiss good Night 212 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:28.759 And for anyone who wants a more recent that actors and playing uh, he's 213 00:15:28.919 --> 00:15:35.600 Logan Roy, the titular father character in Succession, and so it's kind of 214 00:15:35.600 --> 00:15:39.519 fun hearing his very distinct voice in a very different kind of a role. 215 00:15:39.639 --> 00:15:45.080 Yeah. Yeah, And he and Harper are both Irish, as is Wellesley 216 00:15:45.559 --> 00:15:48.320 or at least part Irish, right, And so there's this whole you know, 217 00:15:48.480 --> 00:15:52.679 dynamic of what role do the Irish have in the British Army, you 218 00:15:52.679 --> 00:16:00.320 know, when when you know the British are going around liberating country from you 219 00:16:00.360 --> 00:16:04.720 know, Napoleon's conquest, but it's like I feel like the series, the 220 00:16:04.799 --> 00:16:11.159 novels, and the shows are like interested in that, but not too interested 221 00:16:11.200 --> 00:16:15.480 in it, you know, like yeah, like in the first movie, 222 00:16:15.519 --> 00:16:17.879 and we'll talk about specific issues, but I think there's maybe a good way 223 00:16:17.879 --> 00:16:19.799 to get into this one. In the first movie, I remember saying at 224 00:16:19.799 --> 00:16:23.120 the end of it to Paul, I don't know if this was intentional, 225 00:16:23.159 --> 00:16:27.159 but I found myself rooting for the French, and the reason for it is 226 00:16:27.200 --> 00:16:30.120 one of the things that Napoleon. Napoleon is a figure who I think, 227 00:16:33.080 --> 00:16:38.120 I think is often presented, particularly because our education is mostly like English based, 228 00:16:40.120 --> 00:16:44.639 I think is more negatively perceived in at least the education I got than 229 00:16:44.879 --> 00:16:48.320 is fair. But I also think that therefore there was the response to it 230 00:16:48.320 --> 00:16:51.840 can be oh, no, he was great and wonderful, which is just 231 00:16:51.879 --> 00:16:56.200 as wrong. I think I think was like Stalin kind of right. No, 232 00:16:56.919 --> 00:16:59.919 I think Stalin is much much much worse. Okay, okay, fair. 233 00:17:00.799 --> 00:17:03.799 I just meant in terms of what I mean is that I feel like 234 00:17:03.840 --> 00:17:08.519 Stalin is like portrayed as this villain in the US education system, and then 235 00:17:08.559 --> 00:17:11.160 a lot of people are like, oh, but maybe some of those aren't 236 00:17:11.599 --> 00:17:15.799 aren't so bad, so like maybe he was the good guy, and it's 237 00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:19.640 like, yeah, both extreme. Yeah, I think that's very fair. 238 00:17:19.680 --> 00:17:23.319 I think like, to me, like Napoleon was one of a number of 239 00:17:23.359 --> 00:17:27.839 European rulers at various points in this time who tried to conquer large amounts of 240 00:17:27.839 --> 00:17:30.680 plan and tried to conquer lage amunts of people and like that's not cool, 241 00:17:30.720 --> 00:17:33.680 as you said. And on the one hand, he was carrying out a 242 00:17:33.680 --> 00:17:41.279 lot of the French revolutions ideas, and he brought like he pushed back on 243 00:17:41.319 --> 00:17:42.960 the papacy and a lot of place and that's a big plot point in some 244 00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:48.559 of the Spanish episodes. He brought a much more specific rule of law as 245 00:17:48.559 --> 00:17:52.759 opposed to absolute monarchy, and the Napoleonic Code is still used as the basis 246 00:17:52.759 --> 00:17:57.440 of law in France and a couple of other countries. In many ways, 247 00:17:57.480 --> 00:18:02.279 he was a product of the Enlightenment and Enlightenment thought in terms of like more 248 00:18:02.400 --> 00:18:06.160 rational. You know, it's kind of like what we think of as like 249 00:18:06.400 --> 00:18:08.680 not liberal as the word is used today, but like the classical kind of 250 00:18:08.680 --> 00:18:15.039 idea of liberal as a like constitutionally based government as opposed to absolute rule. 251 00:18:15.160 --> 00:18:18.920 There was a lot of that, but he was also an absolute ruler and 252 00:18:18.519 --> 00:18:23.039 he really dialed back on some of that. But in this particular episode, 253 00:18:23.079 --> 00:18:29.799 the first episode, we come to learn that they're working alongside among one of 254 00:18:29.799 --> 00:18:37.000 the Spanish loyalists, who loyalists the original king Ferdinand fighting against the French chosen 255 00:18:37.559 --> 00:18:42.119 Joseph Bonaparte, Napoleon's brother. But one of I mean antagonists is this guy's 256 00:18:42.200 --> 00:18:47.960 brother and this and the brother is saying no, no, no. Napoleon 257 00:18:48.079 --> 00:18:51.839 and conquered Spain. He liberated Spain, and he liberated Spain, among other 258 00:18:51.880 --> 00:18:53.680 things from the papacy, which it was, as you said, a very 259 00:18:53.720 --> 00:19:00.480 theological country. That he's bringing reason and like those ideas. And one point 260 00:19:00.519 --> 00:19:03.160 says like, you know, he's talking to sharp and to his brother, 261 00:19:03.880 --> 00:19:10.039 and he says, your Spain is a spain of soldiers and monks of cold 262 00:19:10.079 --> 00:19:15.799 monasteries. Mine is a spain of science and diplomacy, of court, of 263 00:19:15.160 --> 00:19:18.200 education and enlightenment and things like that. And that's where I was like, 264 00:19:19.000 --> 00:19:23.480 I like your Spain a lot better. And the truth is, I mean, 265 00:19:23.480 --> 00:19:26.960 I think like and that's you know, the majority of the Spanish people 266 00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:30.319 were against that vision of Spain, so it was like a liberation war that 267 00:19:30.359 --> 00:19:34.200 was also in part because they were very very you know, immersed in Catholic 268 00:19:34.200 --> 00:19:37.200 ideology, and like that's a problem in a lot of ways. I don't 269 00:19:37.240 --> 00:19:41.759 mean there's attacking Catholicism. I mean that any kind of theocracy. And I 270 00:19:41.799 --> 00:19:44.119 think, like I said, I think the movie uses that as a plot 271 00:19:44.160 --> 00:19:48.359 point to give you some pathos between this fight between the brothers, but it's 272 00:19:48.400 --> 00:19:51.440 pretty clear that the English reporting one is going to win and that we're supposed 273 00:19:51.440 --> 00:19:53.240 to feel happy about that. And I think that the way you put it 274 00:19:53.319 --> 00:19:59.400 is very accurate that like it's using the Napoleonic Wars as a backdrop, but 275 00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:03.839 there are specific issues that wants to comment on, such as class, but 276 00:20:03.960 --> 00:20:08.720 the Napoleon Wars itself are not really one of them. Yeah, exactly exactly. 277 00:20:11.119 --> 00:20:15.680 And one character that I left out is the leader of the I guess 278 00:20:15.680 --> 00:20:19.759 guerrillas basically, right, or the Teresa Partisans, Yeah, partisans, Yeah, 279 00:20:19.799 --> 00:20:26.279 exactly, And and she I think is really like I think she's probably 280 00:20:26.319 --> 00:20:33.400 the best female character in the series. Teresa. Yeah, And she's a 281 00:20:33.440 --> 00:20:37.000 spy. She works for kind of like the Spanish underground and she eventually falls 282 00:20:37.039 --> 00:20:40.920 in love with Sharp and they get married and have a daughter. Yeah, 283 00:20:41.000 --> 00:20:48.200 and you know, the series isn't isn't the best in terms of you know, 284 00:20:48.519 --> 00:20:52.279 female characters and women and and I guess the daughter is the only other 285 00:20:52.319 --> 00:20:56.799 female character shark doesn't you know? Poink? But like, you know, 286 00:20:56.839 --> 00:21:00.799 there are some characters who other officers are other people, right exactly who's not? 287 00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:03.319 No, I mean besides the ones who are attached to you know, 288 00:21:03.640 --> 00:21:07.720 but it is, you know, it's one of those things where it's like, 289 00:21:07.200 --> 00:21:12.559 oh, I mean, how would you I feel like even having like 290 00:21:12.720 --> 00:21:18.559 Teresa as a character is like certainly an effort to try to be like, 291 00:21:18.599 --> 00:21:22.759 Okay, let's not just have this be all about men and like the women 292 00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:26.880 are only attached to men, and because like when you think about the era, 293 00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:30.240 it's like, oh geez, Like if you're telling a story specifically about 294 00:21:30.359 --> 00:21:34.039 the war and the armies, it's like, yeah, most of your characters 295 00:21:34.039 --> 00:21:37.279 are going to be male, and most of them are going to be very 296 00:21:37.319 --> 00:21:42.400 misogynistic, you know, And yeah, I think you're right. Like Teresa 297 00:21:42.640 --> 00:21:48.519 is a character who I think is in four four of the episodes, and 298 00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:51.880 it's a long arc. Like with her and Sharp, they slowly get to 299 00:21:51.920 --> 00:21:55.799 know each other, they slowly fall for each other, and their relationship and 300 00:21:55.839 --> 00:22:00.000 her character is really developed over a number of episodes, and then not even 301 00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:04.799 when she dies, but before before she dies, there's also just a series 302 00:22:04.799 --> 00:22:11.359 of women who get taken capture and Sharp rescues and then wind up sleeping with 303 00:22:11.440 --> 00:22:15.759 him, or not one quite there's at least one where they what you mean, 304 00:22:15.839 --> 00:22:21.319 before there's one he rescues before You're right, he doesn't sleep when there's 305 00:22:21.359 --> 00:22:25.640 one he rescues. In the same episode where Terressa died, You're pretty interesting. 306 00:22:25.880 --> 00:22:27.599 He never has to deal with a moment of did he just cheat on 307 00:22:27.640 --> 00:22:33.599 her? Because she immediately he gets killed. And then later there's even a 308 00:22:33.599 --> 00:22:37.640 scene where he rescues someone from a nunnery and who clearly has already decided she's 309 00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:40.640 going to reward him, because as she's running out with him, she says, 310 00:22:40.880 --> 00:22:45.480 goodbye, I'm about to commit a whole bunch of adultery. But yeah, 311 00:22:45.519 --> 00:22:51.440 I think I think Terressa. It's always hard when you're talking about the 312 00:22:51.480 --> 00:22:55.799 way a show talks about an issue that we think of very differently today from 313 00:22:55.799 --> 00:23:00.279 the time it was told, and these I think have the like a lot 314 00:23:00.319 --> 00:23:03.200 of comic books where they're written I think about twenty years earlier and then made, 315 00:23:03.519 --> 00:23:07.079 you know, but still also like more than twenty years ago. And 316 00:23:07.119 --> 00:23:11.400 I think overall the treatment of women it's pretty bad. And some of that's 317 00:23:11.440 --> 00:23:17.559 historically accurate and some of it's also like, but still, the possible essay 318 00:23:17.799 --> 00:23:21.960 of a woman character is a plot point in every single episode that I've seen, 319 00:23:22.359 --> 00:23:25.359 which is definitely not the best. It's not the Game of Thrones level 320 00:23:25.400 --> 00:23:27.640 because the most often is a threat, but still it's like, come on, 321 00:23:27.799 --> 00:23:30.440 we know that's a part of the story, but you don't have to 322 00:23:30.519 --> 00:23:34.960 keep right. It doesn't have to be every single sign. I do feel 323 00:23:34.960 --> 00:23:38.279 like maybe they slow down with that a little bit as it goes on, 324 00:23:38.519 --> 00:23:44.880 but like you know, okay, I'm not I can't guarantee it, but 325 00:23:44.960 --> 00:23:48.599 I do really like Teressa as a character because I think I think in those 326 00:23:48.640 --> 00:23:52.240 early episodes, especially when Sharp was really finding himself, all three of the 327 00:23:52.319 --> 00:23:59.319 characters you mentioned, Teressa, Hogan and Brian Cox who acts just so dominant 328 00:23:59.319 --> 00:24:06.039 like Harper, Yeah, Hogan, Harper and Teressa da thank you. They 329 00:24:06.119 --> 00:24:08.920 all I think are in different ways helping him to grow into the character he 330 00:24:10.079 --> 00:24:12.279 becomes. And so let's start with sort of who he is. Let's talk 331 00:24:12.279 --> 00:24:18.279 about how is how his struggles with class and how that is presented in the 332 00:24:18.279 --> 00:24:22.039 military is shown, especially in that first episode. Yeah, I mean, 333 00:24:22.359 --> 00:24:25.839 you know, his backstory is like he was born into you know, his 334 00:24:25.960 --> 00:24:30.519 mom was was a prostitute and she got murdered I think when he was like 335 00:24:30.640 --> 00:24:34.079 three, and then he grew up in an orphanage, and then he grew 336 00:24:34.119 --> 00:24:37.359 up on the streets, and then he joined the army because it's like what 337 00:24:37.400 --> 00:24:41.599 else are you going to do? Kind of if you're you know, broke 338 00:24:41.839 --> 00:24:47.960 and you know, don't have any family and and so yeah, he's just 339 00:24:48.079 --> 00:24:52.400 like he's a soldier out of like what else is he going to do? 340 00:24:52.759 --> 00:24:57.000 Sort of right, like out of he he needs a job or to feel 341 00:24:57.039 --> 00:25:00.599 like he has a purpose, I guess, you know, and right, 342 00:25:00.640 --> 00:25:06.759 and it doesn't feel like he like is super motivated by England and this and 343 00:25:06.799 --> 00:25:10.440 that and whatever. It's like for him. He's just he's a career soldier, 344 00:25:10.680 --> 00:25:15.640 you know. And yeah, he's not there's never big patriotic moments. 345 00:25:15.680 --> 00:25:18.799 He's never sort of he never says, I think let's do this for king 346 00:25:18.839 --> 00:25:22.640 and country. Really about he creates this camaraderie and brotherhood among his troops, 347 00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:26.880 and then really it's about like fighting for his troops, right exactly. He's 348 00:25:26.039 --> 00:25:30.680 very much you know, and so he becomes, you know, a soldier's 349 00:25:30.759 --> 00:25:34.319 officer basically, right, which makes a lot of sense and sort of does 350 00:25:34.400 --> 00:25:38.039 underscore like, yeah, you probably should learn to be a soldier before you 351 00:25:38.119 --> 00:25:42.559 learn to be an officer, you know. But in the first episode there's 352 00:25:42.559 --> 00:25:47.039 a thing where the whole plot is like that the one brother who you know 353 00:25:47.119 --> 00:25:52.960 supports the monarchy and and the papacy wants to like put this flag of Santiago 354 00:25:52.319 --> 00:25:56.720 and like wave it and thinks there's gonna like be an uprising, right, 355 00:25:56.720 --> 00:26:02.319 it's gonna like ignite Spain basically, and you know, sharp's like like you 356 00:26:02.359 --> 00:26:06.799 think men will fight and die for a rag on a pole like and and 357 00:26:07.400 --> 00:26:11.559 specifically want to say the rag is it's associated with a story from a thousand 358 00:26:11.599 --> 00:26:15.039 years ago that apparently it's the blood of this like Martyred saying two fought for 359 00:26:15.119 --> 00:26:18.799 Spain, and so it's very much a religious symbol and that's part of I 360 00:26:18.799 --> 00:26:22.079 think what sharp objective? Right, and then Hogan's like you do Sharp, 361 00:26:22.279 --> 00:26:26.559 you do you know, and it's like it's true, but it's also kind 362 00:26:26.599 --> 00:26:30.480 of not true. You know. There's there's just there's one Hogan line that 363 00:26:30.519 --> 00:26:33.839 I just sorry, this is a complete tangent, but like this is Hogan 364 00:26:33.960 --> 00:26:36.799 kind of bending the truth a little bit. There's a spot where Wellesley like 365 00:26:37.240 --> 00:26:40.559 is like do you think such and such? And Hogan's like no, and 366 00:26:40.599 --> 00:26:42.640 then Wellesley's like, you're a liar, Hogan. He's like, that's what 367 00:26:42.680 --> 00:26:48.200 you pay me for. Yes, very true, but yeah, it's like, 368 00:26:48.400 --> 00:26:52.960 you know, the idea of like fighting for your country, fighting for 369 00:26:52.000 --> 00:26:56.759 your king, you know, fight like Sharp's fighting for the army that he's 370 00:26:56.799 --> 00:27:00.440 in because that's what he does. You know. It's like it's almost like 371 00:27:00.480 --> 00:27:06.400 a it's a purpose that's its own purpose, and he always wants to try 372 00:27:06.400 --> 00:27:10.599 and keep his men alive. There's a lot of like training scenes, you 373 00:27:10.640 --> 00:27:15.279 know, where where he's like, you know, if you do what you're 374 00:27:15.319 --> 00:27:18.200 doing now, you're gonna get killed. So I'm gonna teach you to do 375 00:27:18.240 --> 00:27:21.839 this other thing and then you'll you might still get killed, but you'll be 376 00:27:21.960 --> 00:27:25.359 less likely to get killed, and you'll be more likely to achieve your objective, 377 00:27:25.400 --> 00:27:27.960 you know, And yeah, I really enjoy it. In the first 378 00:27:27.960 --> 00:27:32.640 episode, how like Teresa's like teaching him, but she's a leader of a 379 00:27:32.680 --> 00:27:34.799 group, right, and he's just become a leader. He's been a sergeant, 380 00:27:36.240 --> 00:27:38.519 you know. Like the first thing we see him say is given order. 381 00:27:38.640 --> 00:27:41.839 The first thing he says is, you know, eyes down, lads, 382 00:27:41.079 --> 00:27:44.839 you know, when Wellesley comes by, because like you're not even supposed 383 00:27:44.880 --> 00:27:47.960 to look at the officers or at the higher general or whatever. But like, 384 00:27:49.400 --> 00:27:55.079 you know, he's he's just he's had this like hard life and he's 385 00:27:55.119 --> 00:27:57.920 he's a soldier's soldier, but now he's a soldier's officer. And like, 386 00:27:59.359 --> 00:28:03.160 you know, he gained the respect of Harper by beating the crap out of 387 00:28:03.240 --> 00:28:04.799 him, and they beat the crap out of each other, you know, 388 00:28:06.160 --> 00:28:07.839 and then like Hogan tries to kill him, and he's like, Okay, 389 00:28:07.880 --> 00:28:11.880 we're gonna take you back to Portugal to get shot by a firing squad. 390 00:28:12.359 --> 00:28:15.920 And then like Harper does some heroic thing even though he really doesn't have to, 391 00:28:17.640 --> 00:28:21.480 and then Sharp's like all right, fall In and the other guys like 392 00:28:22.079 --> 00:28:23.359 you know, don't you want him to give you some you know, big 393 00:28:23.400 --> 00:28:27.119 reward, And Harper's like he did, he told me to fall in, 394 00:28:27.559 --> 00:28:33.359 you know, and like he's just I feel like he's a character who he's 395 00:28:33.440 --> 00:28:37.079 like he's learning how to be an officer, but like he already he can 396 00:28:37.119 --> 00:28:42.680 empathize with the people he's commanding in a way that really no other officer that 397 00:28:42.720 --> 00:28:48.200 we see can actually empathize with them. He understands their actual jobs as well. 398 00:28:48.200 --> 00:28:52.720 And one thing I really liked about that first story is that, like 399 00:28:52.880 --> 00:28:53.799 when I saw the setup, I was like, oh, Okay, this 400 00:28:53.880 --> 00:28:57.279 is gonna be about how he's a better officer than the other officers because he 401 00:28:57.359 --> 00:29:02.000 understands the soldiers, et cetera. But he's pretty terrible at first. Oh 402 00:29:02.079 --> 00:29:06.079 yeah, and in part I think trying to like because he's only seen that 403 00:29:06.759 --> 00:29:10.400 examples of office for the most part, he winds up doing some of the 404 00:29:10.440 --> 00:29:14.119 things that they do. Like it's a clear part of his backstory is that 405 00:29:14.160 --> 00:29:18.079 he at one point was whipped flogged as they call it, for a client 406 00:29:18.160 --> 00:29:26.440 that he didn't commit. And early in the movie, Harper winds up getting 407 00:29:26.480 --> 00:29:30.240 into this really hard combat situation where instead of like properly loading his rifle. 408 00:29:30.319 --> 00:29:34.279 All three times, he winds up one point just like shoving the ramrod in 409 00:29:34.640 --> 00:29:37.880 and then firing that and using the ramrod itself as a weapon. And that's 410 00:29:37.920 --> 00:29:41.400 part of why he normally stays alive but saves the thing they're supposed to be 411 00:29:41.440 --> 00:29:48.200 saving, which is the leader. Yeah. Sharp comes along and all he 412 00:29:48.279 --> 00:29:51.559 sees is that like something went wrong with his rifle and the ramrod, and 413 00:29:51.559 --> 00:29:52.599 it was like, oh, you did that's wrong. I'm punishing you for 414 00:29:52.640 --> 00:29:55.839 it. And it was a really interesting moment of like, oh, like 415 00:29:56.440 --> 00:30:00.480 Sharp screwed that up. And I think it's a very understated way, which 416 00:30:00.519 --> 00:30:04.000 is very common for English stuff especially, and I kind of like it. 417 00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:08.039 It's not there's never a specific moment where Sharp is like I was wrong, 418 00:30:08.519 --> 00:30:14.160 but I think he clearly he starts asking Harper what happened instead of just assuming, 419 00:30:14.160 --> 00:30:17.599 and he starts listening to him and then taking him seriously. And I 420 00:30:17.599 --> 00:30:19.519 think that that's meant at like part of why Harper is okay with it. 421 00:30:19.519 --> 00:30:23.640 It's because Harper comes to recognize that Sharp has grown past that and realized his 422 00:30:23.720 --> 00:30:26.400 mistake, and then for most of the later movies, at least that I've 423 00:30:26.440 --> 00:30:30.440 seen so far, including one where I really thought Harper was going to die 424 00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:33.359 and I was very mad about it, but he didn't die. Harper becomes 425 00:30:33.359 --> 00:30:36.759 a second in command and really the person he talks to about a lot of 426 00:30:36.759 --> 00:30:40.160 stuff. Yeah. Yeah, And I really like that they got we got 427 00:30:40.200 --> 00:30:42.880 to seek his growth of him being like kind of a terrible officer and growing 428 00:30:42.920 --> 00:30:47.680 through it. Yeah, me too, absolutely. I mean it's always you 429 00:30:47.720 --> 00:30:51.119 know, this is a series that to me shows a lot of the things 430 00:30:51.119 --> 00:30:52.680 that I want to see in things when I'm like, I feel like someone 431 00:30:53.200 --> 00:30:56.880 is already doing something that I'm like, I want to see them learn that, 432 00:30:56.039 --> 00:30:57.799 you know, and then I want to see them do it. I 433 00:30:57.799 --> 00:31:00.559 don't want to see them struggle with it every single time, you know, 434 00:31:00.680 --> 00:31:06.000 Like you know, I didn't. Once you find your identity, like be 435 00:31:06.119 --> 00:31:08.640 happy with it, be that and you know, be that person. Right. 436 00:31:08.640 --> 00:31:12.680 But it's like the story of how someone gets there is is also interesting, 437 00:31:12.799 --> 00:31:19.720 and it's worth noting that I believe was the ninth novel written interesting, 438 00:31:19.880 --> 00:31:25.240 but they made it it's chronologically first of the you know, the Napoleonic warror 439 00:31:25.279 --> 00:31:30.200 novels, and they made it the first episode because it does show the backstory, 440 00:31:30.279 --> 00:31:33.640 you know, but the series originally, you know, he was already 441 00:31:33.720 --> 00:31:37.799 this guy, you know, and the I mean the in the novels. 442 00:31:37.039 --> 00:31:41.400 When they started the novels, you know, Bernard Cornwall like was like, 443 00:31:41.759 --> 00:31:45.119 you know, this is the character I want, you know, and it 444 00:31:45.160 --> 00:31:47.680 would be like you know, if you write your first James Bond and it's 445 00:31:47.720 --> 00:31:48.839 like, okay, this is Bond, but then you're like, Okay, 446 00:31:48.839 --> 00:31:52.799 now I'm gonna go and do kind of so that episode was like, actually 447 00:31:52.799 --> 00:31:55.440 it's kind of like a prequel, you know, it's just they filmed at 448 00:31:55.480 --> 00:32:00.480 first, and yeah, the thing with the Ramrod, yeah, he's like 449 00:32:00.559 --> 00:32:01.920 yelling at him about it, but then he listens to what he has to 450 00:32:01.960 --> 00:32:07.079 say, and I kind of I don't I might have read the scene differently 451 00:32:07.119 --> 00:32:12.400 where I feel like he wasn't necessarily going to punish him for that. He 452 00:32:12.480 --> 00:32:15.839 wasn't. He kind of wanted to like get him to explain it in this 453 00:32:15.880 --> 00:32:20.720 sort of defensive way, and then he's like, all right, fall in 454 00:32:20.759 --> 00:32:22.839 because that's when he says fall in, and you know, the other guys 455 00:32:22.920 --> 00:32:25.640 like don't you want to reward and he's like he did give me. I 456 00:32:25.680 --> 00:32:30.000 mean also he decided not to have him killed. You know, that's right, 457 00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:32.000 that's kind I thought the time, I thought that Ramrod Secene happened significantly 458 00:32:32.039 --> 00:32:36.000 earlier. But you may be right. No, that well, I'm definitely 459 00:32:36.039 --> 00:32:42.599 right about when it happened. There might have been another thing where he says 460 00:32:42.960 --> 00:32:45.279 basically, he says, you know, you have powder burns on your cheek, 461 00:32:45.279 --> 00:32:47.000 Harper. That's a sign of going off half cocked, basically, And 462 00:32:47.279 --> 00:32:52.279 because he's he shot the Ramrod through one of the French who they were like, 463 00:32:53.319 --> 00:32:58.680 the older the brother who who wants to get yeah, get too lost, 464 00:32:58.720 --> 00:33:00.000 the decails. He may be right, but either way, yeah, 465 00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:07.599 no I am but uh no that okay, you have a time limit, 466 00:33:07.640 --> 00:33:10.960 so let's not Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I yeah, I 467 00:33:10.960 --> 00:33:15.400 don't have a time limit limit. I have a time yeah. Okay, 468 00:33:15.839 --> 00:33:25.359 okay, okay, let's just let's just move forward. Okay, what was 469 00:33:25.400 --> 00:33:30.160 the point you're trying to make? Yeah, the point I'm trying to make. 470 00:33:30.799 --> 00:33:35.559 Well, I'll just I'll just say a thing. Okay. So what 471 00:33:35.640 --> 00:33:42.000 happens in the scene before that confrontation between Sharp and Harper is the brother who 472 00:33:42.039 --> 00:33:45.599 wants to uh, you know, get rid of the papacy and the monarchy 473 00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:53.839 has two soldiers with him, right, and he says, you know, 474 00:33:53.920 --> 00:33:58.160 this bag of gold will be one of you will be rich and one will 475 00:33:58.160 --> 00:34:00.880 be dead because like he thinks he can only shoot one of them, and 476 00:34:00.880 --> 00:34:05.119 then one of them goes charging first, which seems like a really bad idea. 477 00:34:05.559 --> 00:34:08.360 He gets shot, Harper reloads, but he's not really in time to 478 00:34:08.400 --> 00:34:13.079 reload, so he shoots and his Ramrod, you know, hits the second 479 00:34:13.119 --> 00:34:16.320 one, like through the throat or something. And then there's the whole thing 480 00:34:16.320 --> 00:34:21.960 with Sharp that I'm not one hundred percent and exactly the sequence of their discussion, 481 00:34:22.320 --> 00:34:23.920 and I think it says something positive about the movie that you and I 482 00:34:23.960 --> 00:34:28.559 can read that scene in somewhat different ways, because again, it's not hitting 483 00:34:28.559 --> 00:34:30.360 you over the head with it, right, There's a lot of subtlety to 484 00:34:30.440 --> 00:34:35.039 it, and I think I think part of the point is that both Sharp 485 00:34:35.159 --> 00:34:38.119 and Harper are both caught in this class system that is utterly ridiculous. And 486 00:34:38.159 --> 00:34:43.119 that now, because I remember being very surprised that Harper and all the others 487 00:34:43.159 --> 00:34:47.000 were so like, I get some level of resentment, but just like utterly 488 00:34:47.039 --> 00:34:51.719 refusing to accept his authority and do straight up mutant. Yeah, that's why 489 00:34:51.760 --> 00:34:54.159 Hogan wants to send him home because he attacks him and just was like, 490 00:34:54.159 --> 00:34:57.000 no, I'm not going to follow your orders, and he's trying to get 491 00:34:57.039 --> 00:34:59.760 all the others could be like no, we're marching south, We're going back 492 00:34:59.760 --> 00:35:02.000 home. Yeah, yeah, and either you can come with us or we 493 00:35:02.039 --> 00:35:06.599 can kill you if those are your options basically, and then they fight and 494 00:35:06.639 --> 00:35:08.960 they fight really dirty, and there's this like you know, oh you fight 495 00:35:08.960 --> 00:35:13.559 dirty, and it's like you fight dirty two and it's like this admiration sort 496 00:35:13.599 --> 00:35:20.920 of thing, which I felt like their their interaction there as like having done 497 00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:27.000 taekwondo for a long time and having some higher ranking black belts at some point, 498 00:35:27.039 --> 00:35:30.559 like people have these ideas about other people, right, and like we 499 00:35:30.679 --> 00:35:34.239 used to get together and just like beat the crap out of each other every 500 00:35:34.280 --> 00:35:39.480 Sunday, And like I remember distinct moments when somebody's sort of their perception or 501 00:35:39.519 --> 00:35:44.639 they're like thought, they're like oh you know that, like oh, they 502 00:35:44.679 --> 00:35:47.320 actually were able to, you know, fight in this way, and and 503 00:35:49.079 --> 00:35:52.159 it just felt very real in terms of I mean, I've never been in 504 00:35:52.280 --> 00:35:54.960 actual military, you know, but in terms of a group of people who 505 00:35:55.000 --> 00:36:00.559 spend a lot of time training and fighting, Like there is this like when 506 00:36:00.840 --> 00:36:06.239 somebody hits you in a certain way, and it's like there is this respect 507 00:36:06.320 --> 00:36:08.599 that can come from that, and then like friendship, you know, as 508 00:36:08.599 --> 00:36:14.320 long as someone actually causes permanent harm to the other one. Yeah, or 509 00:36:14.360 --> 00:36:16.400 doesn't I think you mean right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't 510 00:36:16.400 --> 00:36:20.119 even know. I think it's really true. I think another part of it 511 00:36:20.239 --> 00:36:24.280 is I think one of the things that the movies really play out, Like 512 00:36:24.320 --> 00:36:29.960 we get a number of scenes where these military people, the officers who are 513 00:36:30.039 --> 00:36:32.239 gentlemen and I'm kind of foppish, and I think whereas used a couple of 514 00:36:32.280 --> 00:36:37.119 times, they're not out there leading the charge their way behind, and I 515 00:36:37.159 --> 00:36:40.039 think there's this like they really care about the nobility of warfare, you know, 516 00:36:40.159 --> 00:36:44.800 and like all these men marching in a clean, pure line and then 517 00:36:44.920 --> 00:36:50.159 lining up and firing and then getting fired at and just being noble and good 518 00:36:51.679 --> 00:36:54.639 in a really stupid way of fighting a war. Yeah, And that unfortunate 519 00:36:54.639 --> 00:36:58.519 continues in the British military all the way until World War One. And that's 520 00:36:58.519 --> 00:37:00.719 a bit there's tons of right about that about the why World One was so 521 00:37:00.760 --> 00:37:06.320 horrible in many militaries at the time, and I think part of the thing 522 00:37:06.440 --> 00:37:09.079 is that, like, because it's not the officers who are dying, and 523 00:37:09.119 --> 00:37:14.159 they are so disconnected from the men who are dying like that, like you 524 00:37:14.199 --> 00:37:16.320 said, these men don't even think they can look those officers in the eye, 525 00:37:16.519 --> 00:37:20.679 let alone complain to them. And I think that's part of what happened 526 00:37:20.719 --> 00:37:23.119 there, is that Harper realizes, like this guy, this guy gets that 527 00:37:23.159 --> 00:37:28.599 we're not like they're snipers. They're hiding behind rocks, they're shooting. They 528 00:37:28.800 --> 00:37:30.679 very rarely just stand out in the open and fire like that. When they 529 00:37:30.719 --> 00:37:34.880 do, it's because of those dire circumstances. And I think that's another part 530 00:37:34.920 --> 00:37:37.760 of it, is that, like they Sharp shares with that, and that 531 00:37:37.920 --> 00:37:42.679 a lot of their friendship and later episodes is born out of like the officers 532 00:37:42.719 --> 00:37:45.440 giving them some really stupid order and Harper's like, you're not gonna make us 533 00:37:45.440 --> 00:37:47.480 do that, are you in Sharp's no, We're gonna figure something out, 534 00:37:47.559 --> 00:37:51.679 right, Yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah, the work around. Yeah, 535 00:37:51.679 --> 00:37:54.039 in terms of the officers too. I think I recall this didn't come 536 00:37:54.119 --> 00:37:59.480 up in the episodes that I rewatched just now, but I remember definitely from 537 00:37:59.480 --> 00:38:01.880 the books, there's this whole thing about like you don't shoot at the officers, 538 00:38:02.639 --> 00:38:06.559 Like the officers aren't a part of the battle, they are there to 539 00:38:06.639 --> 00:38:08.320 oversee it. And then you know, and then they wave a little white 540 00:38:08.320 --> 00:38:10.199 flag and they're like, oh, let's parlay. And then it's like, 541 00:38:10.239 --> 00:38:14.559 okay, we'll go back ten minutes. Yes, we'll send the men to 542 00:38:14.559 --> 00:38:16.519 fight each other again in ten minutes, you know, and it's like you 543 00:38:16.559 --> 00:38:21.079 know, and Sharp's like, no, you shoot, you shoot the officer, 544 00:38:21.119 --> 00:38:23.119 you shoot the horse, you know, which like I'm not in favor 545 00:38:23.199 --> 00:38:27.559 of that as an animal advocate, but like, yeah, if you're in 546 00:38:27.599 --> 00:38:30.400 a war and there's someone on a horse, like if you can, like 547 00:38:30.440 --> 00:38:32.800 you probably do want to kill the horse and then it's going to fall over 548 00:38:32.800 --> 00:38:37.400 with the person on it. And like, you know, again not advocating 549 00:38:37.440 --> 00:38:40.039 it, and like war bad, you know, like using horses in war 550 00:38:40.159 --> 00:38:44.559 bad. But like, you know, strategy, like once you have an 551 00:38:44.679 --> 00:38:49.800 end, it's like strategy is you know a thing? Yeah, you know, 552 00:38:49.840 --> 00:38:53.039 and it's definitely true. And like The Patriot, which is an American 553 00:38:53.079 --> 00:38:57.840 movie with Mel Gibson. Mel Gibson's terrible. The movie is terrible. It 554 00:38:58.320 --> 00:39:00.840 white watches slavery. It's horrible, but it does bring up that point that 555 00:39:00.880 --> 00:39:05.239 the British are very mad at him that he's targeting officers because like that's not 556 00:39:05.239 --> 00:39:07.800 how war should be follow supposed to be noble. And like there's one scene 557 00:39:07.880 --> 00:39:13.719 later with a truly ridiculous officer who gets mad that the men are cursing, 558 00:39:14.280 --> 00:39:17.840 you know, men like decorous language and stuff. And yeah, it's just 559 00:39:17.920 --> 00:39:22.400 and it's like each individual movie plays it off in a different way, but 560 00:39:22.599 --> 00:39:25.880 pretty much every movie there's some sense of that of the the nobility being just 561 00:39:25.960 --> 00:39:32.559 so out of touch and so ridiculous. And a recurring theme is Sharp in 562 00:39:32.639 --> 00:39:37.559 later episodes, is Sharp seducing the wives of these noblemen who are clearly not 563 00:39:37.599 --> 00:39:43.960 satisfying the noble women, and him being much more earthy mania than people and 564 00:39:44.800 --> 00:39:46.840 is a hind to back. Yeah, and that you know, that feels 565 00:39:46.880 --> 00:39:52.519 like in nineteen eighties nineteen nineties kind of like more you know, sort of 566 00:39:52.559 --> 00:39:54.400 true. I mean, not that that's not still a thing now, you 567 00:39:54.440 --> 00:40:00.079 know, but yeah, but I think it's more people are more critical of 568 00:40:00.159 --> 00:40:04.679 like having that be the role of women in something to be like a prize 569 00:40:04.960 --> 00:40:08.760 or like a you know, a way of like getting at some other man 570 00:40:09.239 --> 00:40:14.079 is you know, yes, so, and like I think there's a lot 571 00:40:14.079 --> 00:40:16.599 of truth to the critique of the nobility at the time. But you can 572 00:40:16.599 --> 00:40:21.159 see kind of like something of a line from something like this to the today, 573 00:40:21.360 --> 00:40:22.760 like no, you got to be a man's man. You gotta know 574 00:40:22.760 --> 00:40:25.039 how to fix it truck, you know, not being one of those foppish 575 00:40:25.079 --> 00:40:29.039 city boys, right right, So that's interesting to look at. Yeah, 576 00:40:29.880 --> 00:40:31.079 you mentioned the fact that the number of the characters are Irish, which something 577 00:40:31.079 --> 00:40:35.480 I know a good deal about and I actually from here, living in Ireland 578 00:40:35.480 --> 00:40:38.800 and some of studies I don't knew a lot about Irish at this point in 579 00:40:38.800 --> 00:40:42.440 time here here to start from. You. So, what what struck you 580 00:40:42.519 --> 00:40:45.639 about those three characters all being Irish and how that played out? I mean 581 00:40:45.519 --> 00:40:52.760 not a lot, Like it's you know, it's it's interesting like Harper, 582 00:40:53.559 --> 00:40:58.239 like why I mean, why does Harper join? Harper joins because he says, 583 00:40:58.320 --> 00:41:00.239 you know, freedom to starve as no freedom at all. You know, 584 00:41:00.320 --> 00:41:02.719 it's like he wants a job. It's a way out, you know. 585 00:41:04.599 --> 00:41:06.960 And you know a lot of the other you hear the backstories of the 586 00:41:07.000 --> 00:41:08.960 other chosen men and they're like, yeah, well I could either stay in 587 00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:12.480 prison or they let me into the army. You know. It's like you 588 00:41:12.480 --> 00:41:19.800 know, a magistrates. So but like Wellesley and Hogan, I think are 589 00:41:22.280 --> 00:41:28.440 their their nobility I guess because they're officers, right or you know, the 590 00:41:28.679 --> 00:41:32.920 opposite of that. But you know, I do think it's interesting that like 591 00:41:34.559 --> 00:41:39.079 so many of the main characters are Irish and that that or main characters are 592 00:41:39.119 --> 00:41:44.079 you know, pivotal characters, and I think that that's it sort of makes 593 00:41:44.079 --> 00:41:47.079 it feel a little bit less like the war is on behalf of like you 594 00:41:47.079 --> 00:41:51.960 know, England, you know. I mean they talk about like King George 595 00:41:51.960 --> 00:41:54.480 and whatever a bunch, you know, but like in this kind of vague 596 00:41:54.480 --> 00:41:59.480 referential way and not in a you know, we're we really care what he's 597 00:41:59.519 --> 00:42:04.320 doing in a way. So yeah, it I mean, I know, 598 00:42:04.360 --> 00:42:07.760 I know you have more actual historical perspective on it, right. For me, 599 00:42:07.840 --> 00:42:12.360 it's just kind of interesting things about their characters. Yeah, I think 600 00:42:12.360 --> 00:42:15.400 it definitely was, and I think it's an interesting part of the English Empire, 601 00:42:15.679 --> 00:42:20.480 especially because I think he will cause a full discussion of his own but 602 00:42:20.559 --> 00:42:23.800 another character winds up being an American who was a He was a loyalist, 603 00:42:23.840 --> 00:42:29.480 so he fled the colonies after the Revolution because he thought the revolution was wrong. 604 00:42:29.639 --> 00:42:34.159 Not an American of Virginian Sir. Yes, like he says, right 605 00:42:35.280 --> 00:42:38.239 and certainly was true that like there were of what they through all its colonials 606 00:42:38.360 --> 00:42:44.360 in the British military. I think, though those different characters, what we're 607 00:42:44.400 --> 00:42:52.400 seeing is that the word Irish can mean a number of different things in in 608 00:42:52.639 --> 00:42:57.519 the English Empire, the British Empire at the time, and I think the 609 00:42:57.639 --> 00:43:00.159 characters are a couple of levels. So for one, there were a lot 610 00:43:00.159 --> 00:43:05.360 of English settlers in England, in Ireland, and that's obviously the source of 611 00:43:05.320 --> 00:43:07.960 a lot of the troubles and stuff, and a lot of them were English 612 00:43:07.960 --> 00:43:12.559 nobility. And my belief, my dshanity that Wellesley is one of those. 613 00:43:12.679 --> 00:43:16.239 Yeah. There's a famous quote by Daniel O'Connell, who's a very famous Irish 614 00:43:16.320 --> 00:43:22.800 patriot and freedom kind of early politician, and he said about Wellington, he 615 00:43:22.880 --> 00:43:27.199 is not an irishman. He was born in Ireland. But being born in 616 00:43:27.239 --> 00:43:30.960 a stable does not make a man a horse, which I though it was 617 00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:35.119 a very uh, you know, aways someone of the right specific political agenda. 618 00:43:35.199 --> 00:43:37.760 But yeah, yeah, no, I mean it's funny, but it's 619 00:43:37.800 --> 00:43:43.840 also it's like there there's it feels different because we're talking about, you know, 620 00:43:43.920 --> 00:43:50.400 the people descended from the occupying force compared to like, you know, 621 00:43:50.480 --> 00:43:53.840 it's like, does being born in the United States not make you a United 622 00:43:53.840 --> 00:43:57.960 States end? Wait the words American? Right, Well, yeah, because 623 00:43:57.960 --> 00:44:00.239 I mean, like, I think we don't often think, but Ireland is 624 00:44:00.320 --> 00:44:04.639 European, but i'land is the only country in Europe that was that was a 625 00:44:04.639 --> 00:44:07.039 colonizer rather than being part of like there were others that I think there's some 626 00:44:07.079 --> 00:44:13.000 degree to it, but certainly Ireland was a colony in terms of like yah, 627 00:44:13.800 --> 00:44:17.000 yeah, and then there was a distinct difference between the occupiers and the 628 00:44:17.039 --> 00:44:22.719 indigenous people and then the them intermixing and things like that, and I think 629 00:44:22.719 --> 00:44:24.519 that's kind of where some of this is coming from. And so you had 630 00:44:24.559 --> 00:44:29.760 people like that. I'm guessing if Hogan was an officer, then he's either 631 00:44:29.880 --> 00:44:31.599 that or he might even be in English and an Irish family that was like 632 00:44:31.679 --> 00:44:36.719 totally okay with the occupation and so became part of the nobility in Ireland or 633 00:44:36.719 --> 00:44:38.880 something like that. And then certainly you had a lot of people like Harper 634 00:44:39.360 --> 00:44:44.519 who were as I said before, you know, when the colonies are getting 635 00:44:44.559 --> 00:44:49.320 stars of all the resources and jobs, often you go to the main place 636 00:44:49.440 --> 00:44:52.800 in order to find work. And it's certainly an awful lot of Irish lived 637 00:44:52.840 --> 00:44:57.960 in England. And this is all the way up to like Peaky Blinder's days, 638 00:44:58.039 --> 00:45:00.679 or even today, who would so think of themselves as Irish and be 639 00:45:00.760 --> 00:45:07.679 treated very much as second class citizens because they were Catholic and hold onto their 640 00:45:07.679 --> 00:45:13.559 Irish identity, but still be English and thus drafted into an English regiment. 641 00:45:13.960 --> 00:45:17.920 As we later learn, he eventually gets control of the company from South Essex, 642 00:45:19.480 --> 00:45:24.480 which is a part of England where they're all from separate and opposed to 643 00:45:24.519 --> 00:45:30.679 that. Also, because Ireland was a part of the British Empire, you 644 00:45:30.800 --> 00:45:36.239 did have full regiments that would from Ireland go off to fight, many of 645 00:45:36.239 --> 00:45:38.519 whom were probably constricted, many of whom were conscripted, I mean, and 646 00:45:38.559 --> 00:45:43.239 many of whom probably were going because they just said a hunger, but because 647 00:45:43.239 --> 00:45:47.360 this war was seen as by many an attack on the papacy by the French 648 00:45:47.559 --> 00:45:52.360 and things like that. When I was in Ireland, there's actually a lot 649 00:45:52.400 --> 00:45:59.559 of like you know, statues to and reverence for the brave Irish volunteers who 650 00:45:59.599 --> 00:46:02.840 fought to protect the faith in Spain. Right. There's a great song called 651 00:46:02.880 --> 00:46:07.480 fairly Well and a Skill in one of my favorite Irish folk songs, and 652 00:46:07.519 --> 00:46:12.760 it's about the Enniskillen Dragoons, a group of irishmen who went to go fight 653 00:46:12.880 --> 00:46:16.280 for the English military. So yeah, so it's a very interesting thing, 654 00:46:16.280 --> 00:46:20.239 and I do really like the way that plays out, because I think sharp 655 00:46:20.360 --> 00:46:29.039 is definitely not that, but the the irishness is very subtly commented on. 656 00:46:29.079 --> 00:46:30.119 But I think you're right, it's very much there and a part of this 657 00:46:30.159 --> 00:46:32.559 whole, like we are the people who are kicked around, not the people 658 00:46:32.559 --> 00:46:37.360 who get to do the kicking. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's really interesting 659 00:46:37.000 --> 00:46:43.480 historical perspective. And that's that's sort of That's one of the things that I 660 00:46:43.519 --> 00:46:46.079 like about this series is that, like overall, it's it's a series of 661 00:46:46.119 --> 00:46:52.000 like fun adventure tales basically, right, but like it has it wears like 662 00:46:52.039 --> 00:46:57.719 a coat of historical you know, historical fiction, right, right, I 663 00:46:57.800 --> 00:47:01.639 mean of like this historical content text, and I one of the things I 664 00:47:01.639 --> 00:47:07.840 think is powerful about historical fiction compared to like biopics, like I really just 665 00:47:07.880 --> 00:47:13.039 don't I don't like things that are like I'll go away from like what I 666 00:47:13.079 --> 00:47:19.519 don't like, but like I enjoy how this is a series of stories that 667 00:47:19.559 --> 00:47:23.400 are like here, stories that like I totally made up about. There's some 668 00:47:23.480 --> 00:47:30.519 historical figures and then there's some you know, made up characters. But like, 669 00:47:30.280 --> 00:47:34.159 the thing I like about is I feel like it's more likely to kind 670 00:47:34.159 --> 00:47:39.719 of spark interest compared to something that feels like it's trying to tell you this 671 00:47:39.760 --> 00:47:45.800 is what happened. And then I I'm like, there's a couple of reasons 672 00:47:45.880 --> 00:47:51.360 I like the latter the first the former better is just like I like having 673 00:47:51.360 --> 00:47:54.320 my interest sparked instead of like you know, being like this is this is 674 00:47:54.360 --> 00:47:59.679 exactly the story. But also like I think if something sparks your interest, 675 00:47:59.719 --> 00:48:02.719 then you can investigate and you can learn at kind of your own, like 676 00:48:02.840 --> 00:48:07.559 find different sources, Whereas I think a lot of historical stuff and you know, 677 00:48:07.599 --> 00:48:10.559 this might do some of them as well, but but a lot of 678 00:48:10.599 --> 00:48:15.679 things that are like here's the history of whatever, and it's like a film 679 00:48:15.800 --> 00:48:19.760 that's not a documentary. It like I think can often give a false sense 680 00:48:19.800 --> 00:48:23.000 of like knowing like what really happened, you know what I mean, and 681 00:48:23.559 --> 00:48:28.480 like then not and then if that leads to exploration, you know, that's 682 00:48:28.480 --> 00:48:30.920 great too. Yeah, No, I think that's really true. And I 683 00:48:31.719 --> 00:48:36.000 hear why you you label biopics is like the problem and that I do think 684 00:48:36.039 --> 00:48:37.079 there's some biopics that do a better job of it, and some that do 685 00:48:37.159 --> 00:48:42.039 worse, and some, as you say, like a retelling of actual events 686 00:48:42.079 --> 00:48:45.920 that are just as bad that aren't biopics. But I very much getting the 687 00:48:45.920 --> 00:48:49.679 point you're making there, and I think having it be based on real people. 688 00:48:49.880 --> 00:48:52.880 But like, basically it's one of those kind of like he winds up 689 00:48:52.880 --> 00:48:58.480 there for being a key part of every important thing the English did throughout the 690 00:48:58.559 --> 00:49:01.079 entire war, right, which makes of course, and of course, but 691 00:49:01.119 --> 00:49:05.480 it's a way to sort of give you like it's hard to tell a movie 692 00:49:05.519 --> 00:49:07.360 about an army, yes, like, because the whole point is it's not 693 00:49:07.599 --> 00:49:14.000 individual combat. It's not one sniper. It's hundreds of thousands of men on 694 00:49:14.039 --> 00:49:19.159 each side shooting at each other and finding more and more scientifically ways to blow 695 00:49:19.159 --> 00:49:21.840 each other up. Ye, go back and listen to our episode about Gujira, 696 00:49:22.079 --> 00:49:23.960 Gujira, Godzilla. If you want to hear our thoughts on that, 697 00:49:24.039 --> 00:49:28.679 yea, And yeah, so I think it's like I agree with it. 698 00:49:28.679 --> 00:49:30.840 It's it's a fun piece of historical fiction that opens that door. And I'll 699 00:49:30.840 --> 00:49:34.960 certainly say I had already learned a lot about this, but I definitely like 700 00:49:35.119 --> 00:49:39.719 was going to websites and learning a lot more about Napoleon and Wellesley Wellington and 701 00:49:39.760 --> 00:49:43.840 these other figures because of this, because of these shows. Yeah, yeah, 702 00:49:43.880 --> 00:49:46.039 And I mean it inspired me to like actually get a book about history, 703 00:49:46.320 --> 00:49:49.559 like The History of the World, and then read it and then be 704 00:49:49.679 --> 00:49:54.119 just incredibly depressed that the history of the world is basically just people acquiring power 705 00:49:54.159 --> 00:49:58.280 and then abusing it to oppress people. And then there's like sometimes there's a 706 00:49:58.320 --> 00:50:00.440 revolution and then the people who led the re evolution end up doing their own 707 00:50:00.440 --> 00:50:02.800 form of oppression, and then someone else conquers them, and then it's like, 708 00:50:02.840 --> 00:50:07.280 oh my goodness. But then again, that's like that's a way of 709 00:50:07.320 --> 00:50:09.719 telling history, right, Like that's not that's not all the history. There's 710 00:50:09.760 --> 00:50:15.039 a lot of stories that happened along the way that like aren't in histories. 711 00:50:15.119 --> 00:50:17.719 You know, it's maybe like a people's history, which I still want to 712 00:50:17.760 --> 00:50:22.039 read. Yeah, because certainly it's generally about like Napoleon did this, and 713 00:50:22.119 --> 00:50:24.639 welling To did this, and maybe this other general did this, but it's 714 00:50:24.679 --> 00:50:30.000 never about like the individual people on the ground, right exactly. So let's 715 00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:36.039 talk a bit about the specific person I mentioned, Colonel Thomas Leroy, who's 716 00:50:36.119 --> 00:50:42.199 the Virginian. It is very funny, how like I think often we in 717 00:50:42.239 --> 00:50:45.039 the United States. I in the United States, Paul, I am in 718 00:50:45.119 --> 00:50:52.119 the United States. That is factually accurate. I think we're often taught that 719 00:50:52.840 --> 00:50:57.920 the American colonies breaking away from England and then fighting another war against them in 720 00:50:57.960 --> 00:51:04.039 eighteen twelve were like these SIMI at all moments in English history, right my 721 00:51:04.159 --> 00:51:07.119 understanding is the English perspective, it's quite different, and it's probably maybe a 722 00:51:07.119 --> 00:51:10.360 little more significant than sometimes it's presented as, but certainly a lot less than 723 00:51:10.360 --> 00:51:15.119 we're presented as. And in these like the fact that they had lost the 724 00:51:15.159 --> 00:51:21.920 American colony is fairly recently is almost never discussed in some of the later episodes 725 00:51:21.960 --> 00:51:25.599 and I'm watching now that take place in eighteen thirteen, eighteen fourteen, England 726 00:51:25.719 --> 00:51:29.280 is now at war with the United States, again the War of eighteen twelve, 727 00:51:29.400 --> 00:51:32.159 and that's nowhere on the I mean, because from our perspective it was 728 00:51:32.199 --> 00:51:36.440 a major war. From the English perspective, it was just like little sideline 729 00:51:36.480 --> 00:51:37.880 of a war that was being fought in all these different places in the world. 730 00:51:37.960 --> 00:51:42.960 Yeah, spoilers. That does come up more specifically later, but I 731 00:51:43.000 --> 00:51:45.760 won't. Okay, cool, well, And so we're introduced to this character 732 00:51:46.199 --> 00:51:52.440 in I believe it's the second episode, Colonel Thomas Leroy. Who is I 733 00:51:52.480 --> 00:51:58.559 think, yeah, okay, I wikipedia it's telling me lieutenant colonel. But 734 00:51:58.559 --> 00:52:04.000 he might maybe he gets promoted it in the series. I found him very 735 00:52:04.039 --> 00:52:07.079 interesting because we are told that he was a slave owner. As he said, 736 00:52:07.079 --> 00:52:10.679 he has all this gold because of slavery, molasses and rum, and 737 00:52:10.880 --> 00:52:15.800 he clearly has no shame about it, and for the most part, no 738 00:52:15.840 --> 00:52:19.360 one else is judging him for it. England did, I think, even 739 00:52:19.400 --> 00:52:22.000 by then had outlawed the slave trade, and you know, had offered to 740 00:52:22.039 --> 00:52:25.440 free slaves as part of the fight against the American colonies in the relation of 741 00:52:25.480 --> 00:52:28.800 war. But clearly in the military no one is being like, oh my 742 00:52:28.840 --> 00:52:31.000 god, you're a slave owner. You're terrible sharp at the very end of 743 00:52:31.039 --> 00:52:35.679 the episode has a comment about like, well you your gold came from slavery, 744 00:52:35.679 --> 00:52:37.639 and that's not really great. But a lot of the episode, like, 745 00:52:37.679 --> 00:52:39.719 I think this an episode, Well I was gonna say, I think 746 00:52:39.719 --> 00:52:45.000 it's a episode where Sharp gets into trouble that all the yeas online, but 747 00:52:45.719 --> 00:52:47.719 Leroy is kind of defending him a lot, and it's presented as a like, 748 00:52:47.840 --> 00:52:53.039 he is not an antagonist by any meanings, and he's presented as a 749 00:52:53.199 --> 00:52:58.000 like more sympathetic than a lot of the other officers, which I just thought 750 00:52:58.079 --> 00:53:00.719 was a very interesting way to portray a slave. Right. And again I 751 00:53:00.760 --> 00:53:06.840 think that like, you know, for a British perspectives, not American forty 752 00:53:06.920 --> 00:53:08.840 years ago written and then twenty years ago, whereas today I think we're you 753 00:53:08.840 --> 00:53:15.239 know, all this stuff about like wanting to accurately teach slavery in schools, 754 00:53:15.239 --> 00:53:20.199 slaves the history benefit, Yeah, slaves did not benefit from being slaves, 755 00:53:20.679 --> 00:53:23.280 contrary to what certain states might want to teach. But yeah, I can 756 00:53:23.360 --> 00:53:27.079 of curious how that struck you. Yeah, I mean I thought it was 757 00:53:27.119 --> 00:53:32.119 interesting. I think I feel like, you know, they are trying. 758 00:53:34.199 --> 00:53:38.079 He's a likable character, you know, in terms of what he does within 759 00:53:38.159 --> 00:53:46.559 the context of the episode. And you know, but he also is party 760 00:53:46.599 --> 00:53:53.079 too despicable acts right, right, and and you know, involved in a 761 00:53:53.119 --> 00:54:04.199 despicable system of atrocities. And I think that's very I'm sure they're like I 762 00:54:04.239 --> 00:54:07.960 think just like hanging out going to a baseball game with like George W. 763 00:54:08.239 --> 00:54:14.599 Bush would probably be as long as we didn't discuss politics, like a pretty 764 00:54:14.719 --> 00:54:19.119 chill, relaxing, fun thing, you know what I mean. But like, 765 00:54:20.360 --> 00:54:28.119 the dude did some things that are unconscionable, you know, and like 766 00:54:28.199 --> 00:54:32.800 that's true about I think many of the people who do unconscionable things, many 767 00:54:32.800 --> 00:54:36.840 of them with you know, less power than you know, the as sensible 768 00:54:36.920 --> 00:54:39.960 leader of the free world for eight years. But like are like on a 769 00:54:40.039 --> 00:54:45.119 personal level and also on a on a more specific level, like capable of 770 00:54:45.159 --> 00:54:50.880 just of doing good things too. Like that's how people are. You know. 771 00:54:51.079 --> 00:54:53.440 It's hard to be a successful leader without some degree of chrisma, right, 772 00:54:53.599 --> 00:54:57.960 possible for depending on what your power base is. Yeah, but often 773 00:54:58.039 --> 00:55:00.320 some degree of chrisma is a big part of what gets people to your side. 774 00:55:00.440 --> 00:55:05.239 Yeah, And you know it's I think reading that book is where I 775 00:55:05.320 --> 00:55:08.880 learned the word laconic, because like every time they talk about an American character 776 00:55:08.960 --> 00:55:15.519 that you describe them as being laconic and interesting. But like it's you know, 777 00:55:15.599 --> 00:55:20.679 I think he's meant to be like to sort of show this other, 778 00:55:21.920 --> 00:55:27.199 you know, kind of perspective. Right, But then Sharp, you know, 779 00:55:27.239 --> 00:55:29.960 Sharp does call him out on it, you know, at the end, 780 00:55:30.039 --> 00:55:32.719 and but at the same time, like nobody else does, you know, 781 00:55:32.880 --> 00:55:37.559 and it's like it's not super consequential that what you know, I mean, 782 00:55:37.599 --> 00:55:39.679 what Sharp says what he says, but like it's like Okay, yeah, 783 00:55:39.719 --> 00:55:43.320 you know, he's still gonna be But I mean, but that's the 784 00:55:43.360 --> 00:55:46.840 thing, like probably most of the loyalists were slave owners, right, like 785 00:55:46.880 --> 00:55:51.280 that was the main or no, maybe it's not. I don't know, 786 00:55:51.599 --> 00:55:53.599 you know what I'm I rescind this kind of let that be stricken from the 787 00:55:53.599 --> 00:55:59.840 record, but like it you know, being I don't know, I don't 788 00:55:59.840 --> 00:56:02.559 know that that is there's the whole can of whatever when it comes to like 789 00:56:02.679 --> 00:56:09.079 the American Revolution, and you know how how that may be preserved, the 790 00:56:10.039 --> 00:56:15.599 right the system of slavery. I know, a couple of years ago I 791 00:56:15.639 --> 00:56:16.800 read this greatly great article. I wish I could find it again. It 792 00:56:16.840 --> 00:56:20.880 was This wasn't the title, but it was I think in the subtitles like 793 00:56:20.920 --> 00:56:23.039 that was, you know, basically with Black Lives Matter through a British lens, 794 00:56:23.079 --> 00:56:28.400 and it was a black a black English person or a black British person 795 00:56:28.639 --> 00:56:32.239 talking about the Black Lives Matter movement and how it's playing out in England and 796 00:56:32.239 --> 00:56:36.760 in Great Britain. And one of the things I remember that they talked about 797 00:56:36.760 --> 00:56:39.760 at length was how, you know, Britain has never really wanted to wrestle 798 00:56:39.800 --> 00:56:44.199 with its own racist problems. It's been starting to, but that one of 799 00:56:44.199 --> 00:56:46.199 the biggest one of the things that would often happen is like they were very 800 00:56:46.280 --> 00:56:53.199 quick to be like America had and slavery, slavery was American and to kind 801 00:56:53.239 --> 00:56:57.440 of write it off and you know again, yeah, Paul's making a face 802 00:56:57.519 --> 00:57:00.760 right now, because it was British ships that brought slaves over for an awful 803 00:57:00.760 --> 00:57:06.920 long time. Yeah, it means the British colonies in America, Like right, 804 00:57:06.960 --> 00:57:09.119 I mean, it's like, you can't you know that's that wasn't nice 805 00:57:10.199 --> 00:57:16.199 exactly exactly. Nor were the Africans who were brought into you know, Cribbean 806 00:57:16.239 --> 00:57:21.079 islands and things like that again by the British to British colonies treated well by 807 00:57:21.119 --> 00:57:23.320 any means, that's whoever, they were also drawn into the purpose of slave 808 00:57:23.360 --> 00:57:29.239 I think. I think that system of slavery was slightly or somewhat different than 809 00:57:29.320 --> 00:57:31.159 what happened in America, but still just as horrible and atrocity as and all 810 00:57:31.159 --> 00:57:35.679 this kind of stuff. And yeah, so I don't know anyone near about 811 00:57:35.679 --> 00:57:38.159 it. People do know more, please let write in low But I in 812 00:57:38.239 --> 00:57:43.559 that understanding of kind of an English writing off of slavery and racism as more 813 00:57:43.599 --> 00:57:46.119 of an American thing. I found this character very interesting in that lens, 814 00:57:46.159 --> 00:57:49.559 and so it's one thing I want to learn more about. Yeah, for 815 00:57:49.599 --> 00:57:53.760 sure, for sure. There's one other actor in that episode that I'm wondering 816 00:57:53.760 --> 00:58:00.719 whether you you spotted. I saw all five of them in two days, 817 00:58:00.000 --> 00:58:02.920 and so, like I probably I spotted a number of actors. I was 818 00:58:02.960 --> 00:58:05.840 like, Oh, is that person, and then immediately forgot. Yeah. 819 00:58:05.880 --> 00:58:09.079 Yeah, So there's speaking of James Bond. Daniel Craig plays one of the 820 00:58:09.119 --> 00:58:15.079 officers who tries to off sharp at one point and totally miss Yeah. Yeah, 821 00:58:15.119 --> 00:58:17.280 I was like that dude looks so familiar. But this is in like 822 00:58:17.400 --> 00:58:21.880 nineteen ninety three or something, you know, so he's like much younger. 823 00:58:22.639 --> 00:58:25.360 Yeah. Anyway, even Sean, like Sean Bean already looks like grizzled and 824 00:58:25.400 --> 00:58:28.679 war weary, but he's so young in these yeah. Yeah, he's on 825 00:58:28.800 --> 00:58:32.039 his thirties, you know. Yeah. So all right, Well, I 826 00:58:32.039 --> 00:58:36.119 think it's gonna be a shorter episode and we will talk more about Sean Bean 827 00:58:36.159 --> 00:58:38.239 and our Patreon section. And I think, you know, if people are 828 00:58:38.320 --> 00:58:40.280 interested in these, let us know, because I think we could do some 829 00:58:40.360 --> 00:58:44.400 great analysis of like some of the individual movies. But Paul, is anything 830 00:58:44.440 --> 00:58:47.920 else about the character in general you wanted to bring up? I mean, 831 00:58:47.960 --> 00:58:52.400 I think we mostly covered the things I would have to say about about the 832 00:58:52.480 --> 00:58:55.679 character. I mean, there's there's so many movies. I only rewatched the 833 00:58:55.679 --> 00:59:00.000 first two, you know, and and the rest of these it's in twenty 834 00:59:00.000 --> 00:59:06.119 five ish years since I saw and read them. So yeah, one just 835 00:59:06.159 --> 00:59:13.440 one note that I would throw in is that they're largely filmed in Crimea, 836 00:59:13.719 --> 00:59:19.440 which seems really interesting to debt. Right, It's like there's there's a little 837 00:59:19.440 --> 00:59:24.480 bit of a parallel there a. The English fought a war with Russia called 838 00:59:24.599 --> 00:59:30.559 the Crimean war in Crimea and then right, yeah, like Russia has taken 839 00:59:30.559 --> 00:59:35.360 control of Crimea, and that's like the if you think about the ODES supports 840 00:59:35.400 --> 00:59:37.000 and the fight to reopen your death supports and all that, that's right by 841 00:59:37.039 --> 00:59:42.119 Crimea. Yeah, it's that area. And using the pretense that there are 842 00:59:42.679 --> 00:59:46.960 Russians there who want to be part of Russia as opposed to Ukraine, right, 843 00:59:46.960 --> 00:59:51.880 that was a big part of the I mean to what extent that's a 844 00:59:51.880 --> 00:59:54.880 preten I'm sure there's like some people, right, but like it wasn't enough 845 00:59:54.960 --> 00:59:58.039 people, you know, And I feel like that's a little bit of a 846 00:59:58.079 --> 01:00:01.360 parallel to the you know, the the French in Spain and not saying it's 847 01:00:01.360 --> 01:00:04.679 the same thing, right, but there's just a little it's just kind of 848 01:00:04.679 --> 01:00:09.760 funny, I mean, you know, in the way that war is the 849 01:00:09.880 --> 01:00:15.400 very sad, dark but at times funny, humorous irony. Yes, exactly. 850 01:00:15.679 --> 01:00:20.280 I am a big believer in finding those moments because else it's all just 851 01:00:20.360 --> 01:00:23.159 so horribly depressing, exactly exactly. I do want to I want to close 852 01:00:23.199 --> 01:00:29.039 you by saying a word or two about the inspiration for this character. There's 853 01:00:29.079 --> 01:00:30.280 probably a lot, you know, I haven't read much about what the author 854 01:00:30.320 --> 01:00:32.559 said, and I think I think James Bond was definitely a part of it. 855 01:00:34.039 --> 01:00:37.280 But there where's a real life man named John Ship. It was not 856 01:00:37.480 --> 01:00:43.519 completely unheard of to elevate an officer off from the ranks, but it was 857 01:00:43.800 --> 01:00:47.639 rarely done. John Ship, though, is particularly noteworthy because he did it 858 01:00:47.719 --> 01:00:54.559 twice. He was a sergeant. He fought in not only nowhere does in 859 01:00:54.639 --> 01:00:59.000 his history they talked about fighting in Spain. He did most of his fighting 860 01:00:59.000 --> 01:01:01.599 in India and then was now in Nepaul and some of that area up there, 861 01:01:02.400 --> 01:01:07.639 fighting almost entirely, you know, wars of enforcing British colonialism. But 862 01:01:07.760 --> 01:01:13.039 he did he did something heroic. He volunteered for a heroic mission, was 863 01:01:13.079 --> 01:01:16.199 successful in it, was promoted to an officer. Apparently it kind of like 864 01:01:16.239 --> 01:01:20.960 went to his head. He went back to England and like gambled a lot 865 01:01:21.000 --> 01:01:24.159 and like could not afford to be an officer basically, and so kept all 866 01:01:24.159 --> 01:01:29.000 these different schemes and lost all of his money, and uh, you know, 867 01:01:29.239 --> 01:01:30.599 I think it was I went to jail at some point, was stripped 868 01:01:30.639 --> 01:01:35.880 of his rank, and then like ten years later he re enlisted in the 869 01:01:35.880 --> 01:01:38.719 British Army, was again made his way up to sergeant and then again did 870 01:01:38.760 --> 01:01:45.519 something heroic and was again promoted to officer. Hilarious. So yeah, there's 871 01:01:45.559 --> 01:01:49.719 just a really crazy, crazy story about mister Ship. And apparently he then 872 01:01:49.800 --> 01:01:52.239 like like he wrote an autobiography and like other people have written folks about him, 873 01:01:52.280 --> 01:01:55.880 like he's a pretty well known character in British military. So yeah, 874 01:01:55.920 --> 01:02:02.000 that sounds like a worthy inspiration. I'm sure someone writing historical fiction is going 875 01:02:02.039 --> 01:02:06.760 to be like, oh hmm, that seems like an idea for a story. 876 01:02:07.800 --> 01:02:10.679 There is one more thing on the character that occurred ahead, and I 877 01:02:10.719 --> 01:02:13.840 just want to say yes. And so the last thing I would say about 878 01:02:13.880 --> 01:02:16.360 the character the real life person Jim Ship, and this is paul One that 879 01:02:16.400 --> 01:02:20.800 I started to read the sentence and had a lot of this paragraph and was 880 01:02:20.920 --> 01:02:24.639 very very concerned, but it turned out actually pretty good because as it described, 881 01:02:24.679 --> 01:02:29.119 his first actually military posting was in South Africa, and so his first 882 01:02:29.159 --> 01:02:35.559 major engagement was against baboons, and what wound up happening was like they were 883 01:02:35.599 --> 01:02:38.719 in an area and that baboons were like circling around them and throwing excrement at 884 01:02:38.719 --> 01:02:46.760 them and otherwise sort of harassing them, and as he writes it, they 885 01:02:46.840 --> 01:02:51.840 the baboons observed my movement and immediately detached about fifty to guard the entrance, 886 01:02:52.119 --> 01:02:54.039 while the others kept their post, and we could sickly see them collecting large 887 01:02:54.079 --> 01:02:59.119 stones and other missiles. One old gray headed one who we had seen before, 888 01:02:59.239 --> 01:03:01.880 nicknamed Father Murphy, was he distributing the orders and planning their attack. 889 01:03:02.320 --> 01:03:07.559 This is clearly rather fanciful, but you know, not entirely unknown. A 890 01:03:07.639 --> 01:03:09.920 screen from Mother and Murphy signal started the encounter. A host of baboons unders 891 01:03:09.920 --> 01:03:13.920 command rolled down roma stones on us that we were obliged to give up the 892 01:03:13.920 --> 01:03:16.800 contest or some of us must inevitably have been killed. They actually followed us 893 01:03:16.800 --> 01:03:21.119 to our doors, shouting their victory cry. So he didn't They didn't like 894 01:03:21.119 --> 01:03:22.880 fight the baboons. The didn't kill the baboons. They accoinded to his memoirs, 895 01:03:23.039 --> 01:03:27.599 they just like ran away. They were routed by baboons. Yes, 896 01:03:27.880 --> 01:03:30.599 yes, that's amazing. I love it so yeah. And that is from 897 01:03:30.639 --> 01:03:35.559 the Memoirs of John Shipp page forty two and forty three. Oh dear, 898 01:03:36.639 --> 01:03:37.360 all right, Paul, was the last thing you want to say with the 899 01:03:37.440 --> 01:03:39.599 character in the world apout. Yeah, it just the last thing is about 900 01:03:39.679 --> 01:03:45.079 you know, so Sean being played the character while the novel series was ongoing, 901 01:03:45.719 --> 01:03:49.719 but the earlier novels had been out for like about a dozen years or 902 01:03:49.760 --> 01:03:57.320 so, and the author Cornwell was so impressed with Bean's portrayal that he changed 903 01:03:57.519 --> 01:04:01.480 the character's backstory or expanded the backstory to to have him be growing up in 904 01:04:01.559 --> 01:04:08.079 Yorkshire to because you know, to match Bean's accent, and then also stopped 905 01:04:08.159 --> 01:04:12.199 mentioning that the character had black hair because you know, Bean's blonde. And 906 01:04:12.400 --> 01:04:16.639 he basically was like, I'm gonna let the books kind of like match, 907 01:04:16.760 --> 01:04:23.000 you know, so as as art imitates art imitates history or something. And 908 01:04:23.039 --> 01:04:25.880 I particularly like that because you said he's not from South Essex, he's from 909 01:04:25.960 --> 01:04:30.079 Yorkshire. Yeah, John Ship is from from Essex. Oh okay, yeah, 910 01:04:30.119 --> 01:04:31.159 that's where that detail got in there. So yeah, it's kind of 911 01:04:31.159 --> 01:04:34.320 cool that it moved from the historical inspiration to the actors. Yeah, and 912 01:04:34.360 --> 01:04:39.840 I think both of those were worked in basically because Shart moved around because you 913 01:04:39.880 --> 01:04:43.719 know, no family. So great discussion, Paul, Thank you so much 914 01:04:43.760 --> 01:04:45.239 recommending this tour. Listeners, what do you think we'd love to hear your 915 01:04:45.280 --> 01:04:50.079 thoughts feedback. We were We're getting a lot of stuff. We've been gotten 916 01:04:50.079 --> 01:04:53.800 this for stuff that Paul hasn't watched yet, so I'm gonna do spoilers for 917 01:04:53.840 --> 01:04:57.320 those things on other episodes, but keep the feedback coming. We love to 918 01:04:57.320 --> 01:04:59.679 see it. You can find all the ways to reach us by going to 919 01:05:00.119 --> 01:05:02.599 the Ethical Panta dot com. Most importantly, there you'll also find our Patreon 920 01:05:02.639 --> 01:05:05.119 content. You have to find all this in the show notes. Patren is 921 01:05:05.119 --> 01:05:10.159 what keeps this going. To know. Earlier articles episodes, we talk a 922 01:05:10.159 --> 01:05:13.239 lot more about why this is so important right now, but important to note 923 01:05:13.239 --> 01:05:16.440 we are donating twenty five percent of all the Patreon income to the strike Funds 924 01:05:16.440 --> 01:05:20.480 to help support the actors and the writers and everyone else was being affected by 925 01:05:20.519 --> 01:05:24.760 these strikes, which is just really a lot of people. Part of our 926 01:05:24.840 --> 01:05:28.079 covering stuff like this is that I'm not covering any content made by the Hollywood 927 01:05:28.119 --> 01:05:30.199 studios, so we're covering, you know, Japanese movies and British stuff, 928 01:05:30.239 --> 01:05:33.679 and looking all over the world a lot of great indie movies that I want 929 01:05:33.719 --> 01:05:36.159 us to cover. I just saw a great list of them that included some 930 01:05:36.199 --> 01:05:40.199 ones that I did not know. We're INDI including Memento for example, so 931 01:05:40.280 --> 01:05:44.199 we might do some content of Memento. But yeah, there's lots of great 932 01:05:44.199 --> 01:05:45.960 stuff. Support our Patreon, it's great what helps support us. You get 933 01:05:46.000 --> 01:05:49.920 add free content. But just look for Ethical the Ethical Panda you find all 934 01:05:49.920 --> 01:05:54.039 my stuff. Look for then Madman, you'll find all of Paul's stuff. 935 01:05:54.840 --> 01:05:56.960 And I hope you sign up the Patreon, but if not, thank you 936 01:05:56.960 --> 01:06:02.320 as much for listening. We have spoken. What on your shop? What 937 01:06:02.559 --> 01:06:03.519 on your sho