WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.159 --> 00:00:03.960 Welcome to back in your Leadership. I'm Chris and I'm Lorenzo, and welcome 2 00:00:03.960 --> 00:00:07.240 to this week's Thoughtful Thursday. Don't forget to follow us on YouTube at Hacking 3 00:00:07.240 --> 00:00:10.439 your Leadership and leave us a review on iTunes. On this Thoughtful Thursday, 4 00:00:10.480 --> 00:00:12.960 I want to talk about something that I think is pretty cool. I came 5 00:00:13.000 --> 00:00:18.039 across an article on gallups website. I explore that website often. I think 6 00:00:18.039 --> 00:00:22.879 they have a lot of really cool data driven articles and analytics, and I'm 7 00:00:23.000 --> 00:00:26.719 kind of a data driven person when it comes to making decisions on leadership. 8 00:00:26.760 --> 00:00:31.399 I kind of want to know the broader kind of implications as opposed to just 9 00:00:31.440 --> 00:00:34.920 thinking about my own personal experience. And one of the articles I came across 10 00:00:35.039 --> 00:00:39.960 was around burnout. But it's five years old and it talks about the five 11 00:00:40.200 --> 00:00:44.359 causes of burnout and I was reading through them and I had to go back 12 00:00:44.359 --> 00:00:46.880 and look at the beginning to see what the date was because I didn't know 13 00:00:46.920 --> 00:00:50.799 if it was if it was a current article or an old article. It 14 00:00:50.840 --> 00:00:56.200 says that the five main factors that lead to employee burnout are unfair treatment at 15 00:00:56.200 --> 00:01:03.520 work, unmanageable workload, lack of role lack of communication and support from manager 16 00:01:03.840 --> 00:01:07.439 and unreasonable time pressure. I mean, I don't know was was this written 17 00:01:07.480 --> 00:01:11.000 yesterday or was this written five years ago? Yeah, I think these are 18 00:01:11.159 --> 00:01:17.400 pretty accurate to today as well. Like when I think about the pillars of 19 00:01:18.000 --> 00:01:21.400 specifically in leadership, and like what I think this is about. Like in 20 00:01:21.519 --> 00:01:25.319 burnout, you know it says it says it's about the workplace, not your 21 00:01:25.319 --> 00:01:26.359 people. What I think the article should say is, like, it's about 22 00:01:26.400 --> 00:01:30.920 leadership, not your people, because like unfair treatment at work, Like who's 23 00:01:30.920 --> 00:01:34.719 treating them unfairly? Right, Who's who's giving them an unmanageable workload, who's 24 00:01:34.760 --> 00:01:40.400 not providing clarity, who's not communicating? And then support from the manager, 25 00:01:40.439 --> 00:01:44.319 and then who's providing unreasonable time pressure? Like at the end of the day, 26 00:01:44.760 --> 00:01:48.000 we can say the word workplace, like we can say that, you 27 00:01:48.040 --> 00:01:52.159 know, a company creates a culture, but what the reality is like leaders 28 00:01:52.200 --> 00:01:56.439 and people do that, and leaders are the ones who have to look at 29 00:01:56.480 --> 00:02:00.280 these types of things and understand uh, and and look in the media and 30 00:02:00.319 --> 00:02:05.040 then go in and address the things from a workplace standpoint that could be causing 31 00:02:05.079 --> 00:02:08.039 this to happen. And again, sometimes it's not just a quote unquote bad 32 00:02:08.120 --> 00:02:13.800 leader or somebody who is like unfairly treating people a certain way of work. 33 00:02:13.840 --> 00:02:16.039 Sometimes there are things within the work systems, or sometimes there are things that 34 00:02:16.080 --> 00:02:24.840 are expected of employees today or of ways of getting things done that because of 35 00:02:24.879 --> 00:02:30.479 certain aspects of the workplace makes it easier for some and harder for others. 36 00:02:30.479 --> 00:02:34.000 So again, I think that a lot of this is about leadership and people, 37 00:02:34.319 --> 00:02:38.000 but I don't necessarily disagree that these are any different today than they were 38 00:02:38.039 --> 00:02:40.120 back when this article came out. Yeah, I'm kind of reading through these 39 00:02:40.159 --> 00:02:44.439 things also and thinking that, you know, a lot of it it really 40 00:02:44.520 --> 00:02:47.199 is about leaders, like all of them, not just unfor treatment at work. 41 00:02:47.520 --> 00:02:52.840 Unmanageable workload. I mean, yes, have I put more work on 42 00:02:52.919 --> 00:02:57.400 myself than I should have sometimes? Sure, But in most situations an unmanageable 43 00:02:57.439 --> 00:03:00.199 workload, the implication is that the leadership is doing too much work on somebody. 44 00:03:00.879 --> 00:03:04.120 Lack of role clarity. I mean, we've been talking about that since 45 00:03:04.199 --> 00:03:07.960 day one on this on this podcast, the importance of what is it? 46 00:03:07.000 --> 00:03:10.199 What does your role mean? What are your responsibilities? What are you accountable 47 00:03:10.199 --> 00:03:15.960 towards? And and and are you clear on what these expectations are. If 48 00:03:15.960 --> 00:03:20.199 you're not clear on what the expectations are, that leads to an unmanageable workload, 49 00:03:20.199 --> 00:03:23.400 because then you start doing work that maybe you shouldn't be doing you should 50 00:03:23.400 --> 00:03:27.000 be You're adding things to your plate that you shouldn't be adding because you think 51 00:03:27.039 --> 00:03:30.560 this is part of your workload or that it should be when in actuality, 52 00:03:30.719 --> 00:03:34.000 you're just unclear about what your actual role is or what the expectations are. 53 00:03:34.520 --> 00:03:38.879 Uh. And then lack of communication and support from manager and unreasonable time pressure 54 00:03:38.080 --> 00:03:43.199 same thing. Unreasonable time pressure is the same thing as unmanageable workload. You 55 00:03:43.319 --> 00:03:46.759 take the same workload and give me twice as much time, and then you've 56 00:03:46.800 --> 00:03:50.520 just you've solved both at the same time. Lack of communication and support from 57 00:03:50.560 --> 00:03:53.360 manager. To me, that's the same thing as lack of role clarity and 58 00:03:53.039 --> 00:03:59.159 an unfair treatment. It's this This all comes down to leadership and if you 59 00:03:59.280 --> 00:04:03.000 are If a person is burning out in a role, I would think this 60 00:04:03.000 --> 00:04:09.000 This list implies that the very first place you should look at is what is 61 00:04:09.039 --> 00:04:13.039 the relationship between them and their direct leader, What is the relationship between them 62 00:04:13.080 --> 00:04:16.240 and maybe one two levels up in leadership, and whether or not it's that's 63 00:04:16.279 --> 00:04:20.959 a good relationship. If it's not one, other things tend to fall. 64 00:04:21.279 --> 00:04:25.000 You know. That's kind of like the first domino that has to fall as 65 00:04:25.040 --> 00:04:28.720 the relationship with the leader. If that's in place, a lot of these 66 00:04:28.759 --> 00:04:32.120 other things tend to go away because they are manageable if you have a good 67 00:04:32.160 --> 00:04:34.480 relationship with your leader. And so the question I want to ask you, 68 00:04:34.560 --> 00:04:39.680 Lorenzo, is of these five things in this article unfair treatment at work, 69 00:04:39.759 --> 00:04:44.240 unmanageable workload, lack of role clarity, lack of communication, support from manager, 70 00:04:44.279 --> 00:04:47.040 and unreasonable time pressure? Which are these five things do you think is 71 00:04:47.079 --> 00:04:51.279 the most pressing in today's environment? You know they're there, they all have 72 00:04:51.319 --> 00:04:56.360 an impact, But in the work that you're doing and the people that you've 73 00:04:56.360 --> 00:04:59.639 seen where this has been an impact for them, what are you hearing as 74 00:04:59.680 --> 00:05:01.560 the thing? And it kind of stands out amongst these five is the thing 75 00:05:01.639 --> 00:05:03.560 leading to the most amount of burnout by people? So I want to ask 76 00:05:03.600 --> 00:05:04.959 you that, but first I want to get up to Ward from one of 77 00:05:04.959 --> 00:05:09.160 our sponsors. All Right, Lorenzo, what do you think is the single 78 00:05:09.160 --> 00:05:12.399 biggest cause of burnout? Of these five things? The one that might lead 79 00:05:12.439 --> 00:05:15.639 to the most amount of people, you know, leaving or or disengaging or 80 00:05:15.720 --> 00:05:18.199 just reporting that they just can't do this anymore. It's funny because I think 81 00:05:18.199 --> 00:05:21.360 I want to clump them all together to a degree kind of like you did. 82 00:05:21.439 --> 00:05:25.240 And if you read through the article, it asks some questions, and 83 00:05:25.279 --> 00:05:29.480 I think we actually fast forward four years that we've had some dialogue around answering 84 00:05:29.519 --> 00:05:31.680 these questions. And the questions are, why does our work environment lack the 85 00:05:31.680 --> 00:05:34.600 conditions for them to flourish? And how can I make it safe for them 86 00:05:34.600 --> 00:05:38.279 to work here every day? From the context of the leader, like what 87 00:05:38.319 --> 00:05:40.920 do you do? And now I think about over the last four years, 88 00:05:40.959 --> 00:05:46.160 how much we've talked about the feeling of feeling of included and welcomed, and 89 00:05:46.199 --> 00:05:50.079 the diversity of a team and conditions for people to be authentic and to flourish. 90 00:05:50.319 --> 00:05:55.399 And then we've talked a lot about psychological safety, creating cultures and environments 91 00:05:55.480 --> 00:05:59.240 where people feel that they can express how they're feeling, what's going on, 92 00:05:59.360 --> 00:06:02.000 the points of stration, that they feel that they can do their best work, 93 00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:04.600 that they have the support of their leader and their manager. And when 94 00:06:04.639 --> 00:06:09.959 you think about those two things, to me, so like truly feeling more 95 00:06:10.040 --> 00:06:15.120 inclusive and really being able to see and understand people for who they authentically are 96 00:06:15.279 --> 00:06:20.839 and appreciate the uniqueness of what they bring, along with creating a place where 97 00:06:20.839 --> 00:06:27.000 we can have some real dialogue about what the team needs, what individuals need, 98 00:06:27.319 --> 00:06:29.920 what are things that help them be motivated and inspired, what are the 99 00:06:29.920 --> 00:06:31.879 things that may be triggers for them to shut down. You start to have 100 00:06:31.959 --> 00:06:36.600 these conversations and now you can really talk about the idea of having there be 101 00:06:36.720 --> 00:06:44.120 more more fair treatment at work, more understanding of what do people need to 102 00:06:44.160 --> 00:06:50.839 be successful, of dialogue around workload and what's achievable, but also what is 103 00:06:50.959 --> 00:06:56.560 motivating, what may be pushing them to do more but not over pushing them 104 00:06:56.800 --> 00:07:00.439 to feel burned out, you know, having dialogue and convers around clarity of 105 00:07:00.759 --> 00:07:04.519 the work, of the role of expectation. So for me, I think 106 00:07:04.560 --> 00:07:11.480 that what that's what has happened over the last four to five years in those 107 00:07:11.519 --> 00:07:15.560 two spaces that I think that's where I would That's where I would kind of 108 00:07:15.560 --> 00:07:18.000 boil it down to, is that are we a more inclusive, more welcoming, 109 00:07:18.120 --> 00:07:23.839 more open workplace and are we creating spaces for our people to talk about 110 00:07:23.879 --> 00:07:28.360 times when they are frustrated, when they are unclear, or when they are 111 00:07:28.399 --> 00:07:30.600 not feeling like they're getting what they need to be the most successful. Yeah, 112 00:07:30.639 --> 00:07:34.120 what I'm hearing here and this is I think this is almost like going 113 00:07:34.160 --> 00:07:39.120 from a one oh one level to a two oh one level in a class 114 00:07:39.120 --> 00:07:42.839 on this. It seems like, you know, maybe the difference between four 115 00:07:42.959 --> 00:07:46.480 or five years ago and today with regard to employee burnout is these five things 116 00:07:46.959 --> 00:07:51.720 were viewed five years ago as the cause of burnout and in actuality, the 117 00:07:51.800 --> 00:07:57.079 learning that we've had over the last five years around what the expectations of leaders 118 00:07:57.079 --> 00:08:01.360 should be and the skills that leaders should be in DEE on higher than they 119 00:08:01.399 --> 00:08:03.439 have been in the past. Really, what it says is that these five 120 00:08:03.480 --> 00:08:09.920 things are not causes a burnout. These five things are symptoms of a broader 121 00:08:09.959 --> 00:08:13.120 leadership problem that will ultimately lead to burnout. And so that the problem isn't 122 00:08:13.240 --> 00:08:20.040 unreasonable time pressure, The problem isn't lack of communication and support or unmanageable workload. 123 00:08:20.319 --> 00:08:26.160 The problem is poor leadership and poor leadership and poor leadership relationships with people. 124 00:08:28.079 --> 00:08:33.200 The symptoms of that situation would be these things. People feel like they're 125 00:08:33.200 --> 00:08:35.360 being treated unfair, or they don't feel like they're included. They feel like 126 00:08:35.360 --> 00:08:41.759 their workload is unmanageable. I've had leaders where I've had massive amounts of workload, 127 00:08:41.960 --> 00:08:45.519 but because the relationship was so good and the support was so good, 128 00:08:45.720 --> 00:08:48.360 I didn't feel burnt out. And then I've had other instances where the workload 129 00:08:48.399 --> 00:08:52.120 was a lot lower, but I felt like I was burning out because I 130 00:08:52.120 --> 00:08:54.240 didn't like the leader, I didn't like the work that I was doing, 131 00:08:54.279 --> 00:08:58.120 I didn't like the team that I was on for whatever reason. So unmanageable 132 00:08:58.159 --> 00:09:03.320 workload in actuality isn't just a kind of a black and white how much work 133 00:09:03.320 --> 00:09:05.320 do you have to get done? It's how bought in are you to the 134 00:09:05.360 --> 00:09:09.080 work? And all of these things kind of fall into the same line. 135 00:09:09.120 --> 00:09:11.639 If you have the good relationship with the leader and you have good relationship with 136 00:09:11.679 --> 00:09:16.759 your team, these things it's not that they go away, it's that they're 137 00:09:16.840 --> 00:09:22.039 not viewed as negatively as they could be if you didn't have that support from 138 00:09:22.080 --> 00:09:24.960 the leader or the relationship. It's like it's almost like, do you have 139 00:09:26.039 --> 00:09:30.840 the tools to solve the problem, because inevitably they will happen inevitably there will 140 00:09:30.840 --> 00:09:33.639 be a lack of role clarity. Right. Does it burn you out? 141 00:09:33.679 --> 00:09:35.600 I don't know. Do you have a good relationship with your leader because you 142 00:09:35.600 --> 00:09:37.159 can get rid of that lack of clarity right away. Do you have an 143 00:09:37.200 --> 00:09:39.559 unmanageable workload? I don't know. I do you have a good relationship with 144 00:09:39.600 --> 00:09:43.240 your leader because if you do, talk to them about it and figure out 145 00:09:43.240 --> 00:09:46.679 where you can take steps to make it more manageable in the moment, it 146 00:09:46.720 --> 00:09:48.679 becomes burnout when you don't have that relationship. All of these things kind of 147 00:09:48.679 --> 00:09:52.240 fall into that same line. So I think that's really the takeaway here is 148 00:09:52.000 --> 00:09:56.120 is don't look at these things as causes a burnout. Look at them as 149 00:09:56.159 --> 00:10:01.000 symptoms of the of the broader problem of a lack of good relationships with leaders. 150 00:10:01.080 --> 00:10:03.679 Yeah, and I think the article you know, talks a little bit 151 00:10:03.679 --> 00:10:09.960 about that around like leaders leadership starting the prevention strategy is much further upstream. 152 00:10:09.039 --> 00:10:13.480 So to your point, like, I think that that that you're absolutely spot 153 00:10:13.519 --> 00:10:16.159 on that it's like this is you know, the only thing that I would 154 00:10:16.159 --> 00:10:18.799 say, is like, it's it burnouts about your workplace. I would change 155 00:10:18.799 --> 00:10:22.039 that in finac I would say burnouts about the leadership, like you know, 156 00:10:22.120 --> 00:10:26.120 like that that's the reality, is that the leaders bring these things to life, 157 00:10:26.240 --> 00:10:31.480 or the leaders lessen these things of an impact. And then to your 158 00:10:31.480 --> 00:10:33.440 point, like yeah, like I've been in exactly the same boat. I 159 00:10:33.720 --> 00:10:37.000 have felt sometimes that like, man, I'm being asked to do a lot 160 00:10:37.039 --> 00:10:41.360 more than maybe a peer of mine is doing. But I also feel like 161 00:10:41.960 --> 00:10:46.840 my leader is aware of that. They inspire that they motivate me in that 162 00:10:46.919 --> 00:10:50.159 space. They explain to me why that's a thing. You know, my 163 00:10:50.480 --> 00:10:54.360 leader will say things like you know, I want you to work to your 164 00:10:54.399 --> 00:11:00.600 potential and not measure yourself against other peers, like because I think you have 165 00:11:00.639 --> 00:11:03.799 more potential, Like those are things that a leader can say that will erase 166 00:11:03.799 --> 00:11:07.200 some of these things off the list for me, Like then it's all good, 167 00:11:07.240 --> 00:11:11.240 Like I don't need to worry about these things or these things don't have 168 00:11:11.799 --> 00:11:16.440 that type of an impact on me because I know that there is a larger 169 00:11:16.480 --> 00:11:18.799 picture here, there's a different level that I'm being asked to deliver upon, 170 00:11:20.320 --> 00:11:24.759 and I'm willing to accept that personally because my leader is really clear about that 171 00:11:24.759 --> 00:11:26.360 type of work. So yeah, I agree with you, and I think 172 00:11:26.399 --> 00:11:35.600 that so much of this is about that understanding of if leaders are not doing 173 00:11:35.240 --> 00:11:39.519 the work that they should be doing with their teams in these ways, then 174 00:11:39.559 --> 00:11:43.960 these symptoms will start to show up, and over time these things will definitely 175 00:11:43.039 --> 00:11:46.320 turn into burnout. Yeah, and we learned from the interview that we put 176 00:11:46.320 --> 00:11:54.120 out with Steven Schadletski last month on Speak Up Culture that a person's relationship with 177 00:11:54.200 --> 00:11:58.679 their leader has more of an impact on their overall physical and mental health than 178 00:11:58.759 --> 00:12:01.440 even the relationship that have with family doctor that came from the World Health Organization. 179 00:12:03.720 --> 00:12:07.600 That is absolutely true. And so if you're looking at trying to stop 180 00:12:07.679 --> 00:12:11.960 the burnout that might be happening in your place of work, really understand that 181 00:12:11.000 --> 00:12:16.039 this isn't just about, you know, people having more grit or being able 182 00:12:16.039 --> 00:12:18.879 to like power through something. For a lot of people, this is having 183 00:12:18.960 --> 00:12:24.919 a true impact on their mental and physical health and well being. And the 184 00:12:24.960 --> 00:12:28.720 broader implications of that are are life and death in some situations, and for 185 00:12:28.759 --> 00:12:33.440 a lot of people. In the last few years, with the reprioritizing of 186 00:12:33.480 --> 00:12:37.159 things in people's lives, a lot of people are a lot less willing to 187 00:12:37.240 --> 00:12:41.360 compromise those things than maybe they would have in the past. And so if 188 00:12:41.399 --> 00:12:45.000 you're a leader and you want to make sure that your people aren't constantly leaving 189 00:12:45.159 --> 00:12:48.440 or you know, or burning out, the way to do that is to 190 00:12:48.720 --> 00:12:50.759 is to look at your relationship with them and make sure that if these things 191 00:12:52.519 --> 00:12:56.919 event when inevitably these things wear their heads, that you and your people have 192 00:12:56.960 --> 00:13:00.159 the tools together to solve them as opposed to them leading to that burnout. 193 00:13:00.240 --> 00:13:01.879 Absolutely, and with that it brings us to the end of this episode. 194 00:13:01.960 --> 00:13:05.240 This is hacking leadership. I'm Lorenzo and I'm Chris, and have a great day.