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Welcome to UFO Think Tank Craigio with
your host Alejandrolhal. Hello, my friends,

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and welcome back. You know what's
funny is since I've changed the name

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back to UFO Think Tank, we
actually have lost a few listeners and they've

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been saying, hey, where you
go. You haven't done the show.

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And I got to tell them,
you know what, UFO Think Tank.

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Check it out, and they go
and they begin to listen. But luckily,

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because we've had a regular increase,
you know, I haven't even noticed.

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It was like I switched over and
I thought, okay, great,

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doesn't look like we lost any listeners. And then this Google app, this

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new Google listen think featured the show
somehow, and all of a sudden we

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had like one hundred thousand listens.
And now that that is gone. I

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was last month that they kind of
featured. We're back to our normal but

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it's kind of fun. It's,
you know, welcome back to the show.

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Where those of you who didn't realize
that the show was still going on.

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But it's wonderful to see all of
those listeners and so many new ones.

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And thank you all so very much
for listening, and welcome to all

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of you new listeners. We love
you, We're glad you're here, and

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I am really happy you are here
today, and I'm sure you're gonna be

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happy too, because I have some
extremely exciting news to share as well as

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a great guest today, the guest
I am particularly. I need my sheet

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with all the different words I use
because I always say excited. I'm so

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excited, I'm so happy. I
say that all the time, but it's

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true. I am being excited to
have some of these people, including our

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guest today, who is John Dover. He is a Navajo Ranger who has

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done UFO investigations. In fact,
they've done a bunch of paranormal investigations.

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This is really going to be part
one of a two part deal because today

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I've got John Dover. Then next
week we're gonna hear from Stan Milford,

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who is his partner, another Navaja
ranger, and together these guys have gone

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out. They're part of special projects
for the Navajo Rangers. Now, special

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projects just means important cases, like
if you watch what line Order has the

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special Victims. I think they call
it or something like that. I don't

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know, but it's similar to that. They handle the high profile cases.

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Now, occasionally these cases are of
a paranormal nature. Huh, exciting,

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and they go out and investigate these
things. They don't say, ah,

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you guys are crazy. Now they're
like, Okay, let's go check it

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out. And in some of these
cases they're crazy. But no, actually,

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in many of these cases, it's
really crazy stuff they investigate, and

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so this is really fun. Now, these guys are federal law enforcement,

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they're trained by the Feds. They're
actual law enforcement. There rangers on the

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Navajo Reservation, which is huge.
It's as big as it's bigger than some

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of the states that some of you
all live in. It maybe bigger than

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some of the countries that you all
live in, because I know we've got

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listeners from all over the place.
But these guys go out and investigate these

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cases, and then they've ran across
some really wild stuff. I met him

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a couple years ago when they wanted
to come to the UFO Congress because they

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wanted to learn more about investigating this
stuff because they're running across it, you

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know, they wanted help. They
contacted Moufon and now they kind of have

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this partnership with move On to help
them with this stuff. So it's really

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really exciting and their stories are just
incredible. So this is going to be

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a real treat. It was real
treat for me to interview John and I

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know you guys are gonna love this. So that's what's coming up in just

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a few short minutes. But prior
to that, before we get into the

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news, I have some more exciting
news. And this is super super exciting

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for me because this is a goal
of mine for for many many years.

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I tried to do this with the
first UFO Congress as much as I could,

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you know, as some of you
may know, when some of you

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don't, I wasn't Open Minds.
I didn't run Open Minds. I was

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a member of Open Minds, and
I did a lot of stuff there,

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and you know, I've got friends
there and everything, and that's great.

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But this is something that I'm putting
together all on my own, and that

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is a conference that is more mainstream, mainstream journalists, mainstream scientists, more

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mainstream palatable. Some of you are
like, oh man, that's boring.

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I want to hear wordless. I
want to hear about big put which is

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fine, you know, And I
actually hope to do another paranormal conference to

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talk about more different kind of things. But what I want to create,

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which I don't think exists right now, is space where scientists and journalists can

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go where it's very mainstream safe,
you know, a place where the speakers

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and the people have credentials to a
degree, which if they're featured in a

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story or they're interviewed, it's kind
of incontestable, you know. It's like

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they're not going to make fun of
these people because they have PhDs or their

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professors or their scientists, very well
known scientists, And I think that's really

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important in order to move all of
this forward. I'm a very as you

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guys know, inclusive person. I
don't like this and nobody I don't like

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being confrontational or defensive or argumentative.
I would rather work together, including with

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mainstream science. Jack come on over, buddy. Unfortunately he's actually going to

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be in Italy the weekend of this
conference. However, the point is is

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that other SETI scientists, even if
they aren't they don't aren't convinced that we're

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being visited by extratrusturals. Maybe they
don't think much about UFOs, but they

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think a lot about space, and
they think a lot about extraterrestrial life because

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they're focused on finding that microbe on
Mars, they're focused on finding that microbe

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on the moon of Saturn. That's
still good, I think, because these

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are people who have open minds,
and you know, I think people will

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know if you know, scientists are
very focused on what they're doing, and

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it's not always that these people think
that UFOs are ridiculous. It's just that

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they haven't thought much towards it because
they're really focused on the science that they're

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working on, and uh so they
get a little bit of tunnel vision.

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So I think it's an incumbent upon
us who feel that there is some real

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evidence here to reach out to these
people and to then begin to discuss display

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what we feel is convincing evidence.
And I think if we can do that

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and create a space where these sort
of people can feel comfortable to talk amongst

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each other, then that opens up
the opportunity to hopefully have some you know,

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more conventional, mainstream scientific research in
this area. Because you know what,

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I've been a move On investigator for
many years. I'm a state section

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director in Arizona. Move On is
great, it's one of the biggest It

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is the biggest investigative organization in the
country. But we're all volunteers working on

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the little precious time that we have
in our free time to try to do

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this stuff. And it's not enough, it's too difficult. We really need

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a concerted effort from a scientific organization, and we're not going to get that

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if we're telling them they are a
bunch of boneheads and they don't know what

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they're doing, and they're covering stuff
up, and they're working for the man.

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They don't even know the man.
Who's the man. I don't know

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who's the man. I'm working on
science over here. So I think we

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really need to reach out to these
people, and that is my goal here.

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The other second part of that is
that there are scientists, as we

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know because we interview them on this
show. There are scientists who are interested

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in this and why are they interested? And there's a lot of these guys

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who will stick their neck out to
say that there's something real here that we

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need to investigate. Even mister mitchell
O Kaku, Sorry, I don't know

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that he's coming to the conference,
But there are scientists out there who do

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buil there something going on and they
want to discuss it and really analyze all

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of this. So this is going
to be something else. So this is

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a Cosmic Exploration Conference, Science,
UFOs and the Search for Extraterrestrial Life.

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I'm going to read you a little
the blurb here because it's great. This

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first of its con conference will examine
both current knowledge and future possibilities within the

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fast growing scientific exploration of outer space
through the interface of cosmology, astrobiology,

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sociology, and cutting edge physics.
We will explore the search for earthlike exoplanets

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and extraterrestrial life, the potential implications
of contact, and technologies which might exist

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within civilizations thousands or millions of years
ahead of us. We will also present

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a rigorous and rational overview of the
UFO question as it should be understood within

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a scientific and historical context. Our
goal is to bring these many interrelated areas

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together for the first time, as
presented only by leading credentialed professionals, and

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to bring a dialogue within an expanded
scientific framework about the search for signs of

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life and the cosmos and its implications. What does it mean that perhaps we're

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right around the corner from discovering that
microbon mars? What are people going to

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think what does it have? What
effect is it going to have on people's

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view of whether advanced civilizations are out
there? I think it'll be big because

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they'll be like, Wow, we've
got life on our next door neighbor and

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this planet, this Mars that we're
looking at in the sky every night.

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If there's life there, it must
be everywhere. And if there's life everywhere,

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there must be advanced civilizations. Who
are these guys? Are they really

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coming here? I think people begin
to ask these questions, and then people

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begin to look for answers, and
if we can start to create this space

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and get involved with that dialogue and
we can help move this further. I

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don't have all the speakers lined up
yet, but who I have, Oh,

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this is good. One of the
people I have Leslie Kane, and

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she's been a big help. She's
an investigative journalist. Of course, she's

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a New York Times bestselling author.
In that book that I'm talking about is

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called UFOs Generals, Pilots and government
Officials go on the Record. She's an

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integral part of this conference because her
book is the model really for this.

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What she was able to do is
write this book. It became a New

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York Times bestseller. She was able
to prove that people are really itching,

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they really want credible, solid information
on this and so I thought, Okay,

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we need to create a space where
these people can get together, where

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they can network, where researchers and
people interested in this field can come and

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see these people, and we can
all talk with Leslie Kane. She's gotten

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her book endorsed by Derek Pitt,
a very important astronomer in New York,

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by Mitchie okaku By. She's worked
with John Podessa, all of these very

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high level people who have said,
you know what, we feel, there's

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something to your book. Your book
is great. Those people need a space

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somewhere where they can come, be
comfortable to come to. They're not ready

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for abductions and reputilians, they're not
ready for all of this other stuff,

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because you know, they need to
scratch the surface and get to this credible

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information to begin a real conservative effort
so they can do some deal due diligence

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around researching this stuff. Some of
the other speakers. Now, this conference

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is gonna be in Las Vegas.
It's gonna be at the Tropicana Hotel.

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Beautiful, beautiful venue. Just newly
renovated. You can go on my website

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ufodailynews dot com and you're gonna see
at the top of the Cosmic Exploration Conference.

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In there, you'll be able to
go to the website for the conference

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and see pictures that I even took
myself of the venue. I mean,

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this place is beautiful. One of
the most in my humble opinion, the

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most important journalist in Las Vegas is
George Napp. Of course you're all familiar

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with him because sorry to uh mister
Norri, but George Napp is my favorite

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host of Coast to Coast AM and
he is a main stream investigative journalist.

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In fact, he has won many
many awards, including nineteen Emmy Awards for

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his journalism. How incredible is that
this is a mainstream journalist who really follows

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the UFO story and he takes it
very serious. So George Knapp an important

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person in Las Vegas. He'll be
speaking Jeffrey Bennett, who is an astronomer,

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a teacher, and a writer.
He has a PhD in astrophysics.

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He is someone who will be at
the conference. He's into SETI. He's

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written a book called Beyond UFOs,
The Search for extraterrestrial life, and he

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is going to be talking about a
lot of the projects going on that way.

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John Alexander, love him or hate
him, he's out there and he

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is here's the message. And this
is what I like about his messages.

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Some people think he's covering stuff.
I don't think so. I think he's

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genuine in this because I've talked to
him quite a bit over the last couple

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of years. But his deal is
I thought there was something to UFOs.

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I did an internal investigation when I
was a colonel. He's a leading expert

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on non lethal weapons, I mean, like one of the very top guys

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in this field. He did work
on other paranormal things. I can remote

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viewing, which we talked about last
week. And he says he did an

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investigation while he was in the army
and he found that the UFOs are real,

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but that there is no major conspiracy, that the government, or at

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least the military is justice baffled as
everyone else. And he puts it straight.

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He says he thinks they were too
incompetent to really investigate this stuff.

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They failed many times in the research
here. But still he's got an important

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message. It's an alternative for those
who aren't comfortable with a grand conspiracy idea.

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And I think it's worth listening to
because he has some interesting points to

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make. Another mainstream journalist who's writing
for a national publication, the Huffington Post,

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and writing about UFOs regularly, that
is Lee Spiegel. Really, I

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mean, one of the few mainstream
writers out there who gets to who has

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just this huge audience I mean Huffington
Post, and he's able to write about

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this stuff. Ron Westrom and this
is really exciting. He's a professor emeritus

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of sociology at Eastern Michigan and he
talks a lot about the sociology of anomaly.

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So when anonymous anomalist things happen,
how does society react and why?

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And so he's talking about essentially,
you know, why do we laugh at

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UFOs, Why do we this anomalist
stuff? What is it in us that

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makes us happen? So he's an
important person. He actually got his bachelor's

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from Harvard and his PhD in social
relations at the University of Chicago. Another

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professor Ted Peters, and he's a
current professor of systematic theology at Pacific Lutheran

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is the name of the Theological Seminary. That's where he's a professor now his

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PhDs in theology. And what's great
about him he also works on a journal

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for the Center for Theology and Natural
Science, and he works a lot in

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science. He wants to talk about
really how people react. He's written this

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incredible study We've had him on the
show about how religions really will be effected

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if an extraterrestrial civilization would be discovered. Very interesting stuff because it's some real

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data. And then finally, and
this is kind of a cherry on the

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cake for now, is Major General
retired Wilfred Debrauer from the Belgian Air Force.

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This guy is amazing and it's because
he's a major general for the Belgium

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Air Force. He was there with
the UFO flap, and flap happened in

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the nineties when they saw all these
triangular UFOs. He does a play by

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play of that investigation, the many
sightings, the sidings by police, the

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sidings by so many other citizens.
I mean, it's an amazing occurrence that

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happened out there in the nineties that
is completely unexplainable, and I mean,

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how can you you know this guy's
a major general for goodness sakes, very

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credible and incredible stuff. I'm very
proud to have Debrawer here, and he's

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especially important right now because about a
year ago or so, it came out

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that the most famous UFO photo of
the Triangle in Belgium was hoaxed. And

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really there's been some information that has
been out, but we will have our

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chance to hear it from the horse's
mouth. Debrower personally worked with the witness

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back in the nineties and got that
picture and got that investigation done. What's

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up with that picture? We're gonna
hear it straight from Debrawer on what's going

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on there. So that's who I
have thus far. I have some really

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exciting prospects on the horizon. You
all are the first really to hear about

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this. I only finished the website
like yesterday and got it all up.

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You're gonna want to go register early
because the banquet, the meat, the

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speaker's baquet, which is going to
be a nice plated dinner. You'll be

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served. It's gonna be scrumptious going. It's got limited seating, and I

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know those seats are going to go
fast. I have lesson I've got maybe

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around one hundred and fifty or so
seats at that, so not a whole

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lot so which is kind of nice
because it's going to be a very intimate

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setting. Then there won't be a
whole lot of people. You'll definitely get

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a chance to speak with the speakers, and that's what this banquet is about.

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I don't have much fanfare going on
because sometimes when there's too many presentations,

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people don't get a mingle. And
I really want you all to have

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a chance to speak with some of
these people, speak with Debrawer, speak

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with some of these other scientists and
professors, and speak with Leslie Kaine.

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She's wonderful. So this is going
to be great. The price is really

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low. I really kept the price
as low as I could, and I

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think you're going to appreciate that because
he's I know these conferences can get expensive,

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but it's only one hundred and sixty
five for everything, and that's dinner

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and all lectures, three days,
thirteen lectures speakers only, is only one

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hundred and fifteen dollars, So that's
really cheap. You can get away with

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this conference coming out and paying very
little. It's at the Tropic Cana,

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which is absolutely beautiful. I mean, this place is really fancy. It

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has a bunch of really big pools
that are viewable from these walking areas.

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Some guys out there like to look
at girls and bikinis, and if you're

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one of those guys, you're gonna
love it because there is an abundance of

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that where girls who like to look
at guys in there and you know,

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their trunks and strutting around. You're
gonna love it too because you're gonna have

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that opportunity. But these rooms are
beautiful, and you know what I'm doing

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with this conference. It's Vegas,
right, So I'm finishing everything pretty early

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so you can go out and enjoy
Vegas at night. I mean, that's

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what it's all about, right,
So everything is going to be ending fairly

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early, so you have lots of
time to go have some fun. And

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plus, sometimes people you know will
come to me at these conferences and be

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like, hey, man, you
know I want to go, but my

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spouse doesn't. She doesn't know what
she's gonna do. You know, you

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guys are having your conference in the
middle of the desert or whatever. My

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family going to do. Well,
that's a no brainer. Here. There's

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plenty to do in Vegas. And
this is what is really cool. And

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you can see a picture that I
took from my room at the Tropicana,

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and that is you have a perfect
view of and at airlines. These are

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the unmarked planes which fly the people
to Area fifty one, the workers to

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Area fifty one, and they fly
back and forth. I actually got to

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see you in the morning, you
know, or at these planes taxing out

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to fly the employees to area fifty
one. How exciting is that? And

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I have a picture of that on
the venue page on the website. So

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remember Cosmicx. Cosmicex dot com is
the website, but you can also just

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go to Ufodailynews dot com and there's
a link at the top of the screen

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there. So pretty cool stuff,
guys. I'm just so excited to tell

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you all about this. I know
I took a long time explaining it.

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And let's see if I could get
into some news real quick. Some of

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you might have seen this story and
I am going to post it on the

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Huffington Post tomorrow. But this is
just kind of cool because SpaceX, which

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is in the news big time because
tomorrow they're going to be the first commercial

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space company to send a craft to
the International Space Station that should be happening

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tomorrow. And they're also partnering,
partnering up with Bigelow. Big Low Aerospace,

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we know this guy, and Bigelow
of course has these little units,

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these inflatable kind of space stations.
So they're talking about working out a partnership

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where you can actually lease a space
station from Biglow and SpaceX will fly you

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back and forth. How wild is
that. I've got this story at ufodailynews

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dot com, and I'll have an
story up tomorrow on the Huffington Post.

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But of course I also include a
little bit about Bigelow's UFO interest, because

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of course he's done his own UFO
research. I paused because I clicked the

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next page, and look what I
saw here. John Alexander, he's in

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the news too. Lee Spiegel,
one of our speakers. He wrote about

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John Alexander, one of the other
speakers, And John Alexander actually wrote a

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letter to the Secretary of Defense Leon
Panetta, CIA Director General David Petraeus,

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and National Intelligence Director General James Clapper. And in this letter he says,

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you know what I don't I believe
you guys, there's not a major conspiracy

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but a lot of people are afraid
to talk who have had sightings in the

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military. I want you guys to
offered her amnesty to anybody in the military

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who wants to talk about their UFO
sidings or who say they've been sworn to

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secrecy about UFOs. He's kind of
calling them out, you know. He

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kind of thinks that he's skeptical that
they had any such request to ask anybody

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the secrecy. He thinks that maybe
sometimes some of these people who were asked

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to be quiet were un roguely,
you know, like some lieutenant tells some

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guy, hey, don't talk about
this, when it was none of his

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business whether he talked about it or
not. So that's kind of what he's

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doing. So this has kind of
got to be a pretty big story by

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least heego on the Huffington Post.
And so those are a couple of stories.

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Of course, for more stories go
to ufodaily news dot com. However,

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we have this interview with John Dover
which is really interesting. So let's

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go ahead and get to John.
All Right, I am particularly excited to

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00:27:32.480 --> 00:27:37.480
have John Dover on the phone with
me. John, Hello, how you

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doing today? Doing very well?
So this is an exciting topic For another

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number of reasons. I think a
lot of people like to hear the Native

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American perspectives on UFOs or paranormal but
also because your law enforcement and law enforcement

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doesn't typically pay at attention to paranormal. Sometimes they do, but on the

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side, but the law often they
shy away from taking the paranormal claim seriously

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and going investigating these things. But
you guys do well. It gets to

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the point where if you're in law
enforcement and you see something or something happens

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to you, you're ridicule and it's
actually pretty pretty hard to deal with sometimes

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because other law enforcement officers it's a
very matral world where people don't talk about

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strange things that can't be explained.
I guess to get into what you did

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now, And I certainly don't want
to disparage law enforcement. I personally have

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a great, great respect for law
enforcement. People get upset and I think

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they go a little overboard because they
get a ticket here and there. But

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these are people who are willing to
put themselves in between you and a bullet,

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00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:04.920
you know it, put themselves in
harms way to protect all of us,

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to help us when we're in trouble. I think that's incredible, and

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I think unfortunately law enforcement doesn't get
enough credit for what they do for the

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low fees that they get. And
I personally have a very very big respect

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for law enforcement. Well thank you. Yeah, we call it the thin

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blue line. I've done not only
police work in my past, but resource

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law enforcement work and historic preservation work. So all law enforcement all across the

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United States is a real brotherhood.
So I guess to get into the startups

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to kind of put it in context
and what your job was and what you

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were responsible for. You were a
Navajo ranger, so there is some affiliation

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with federal law for enforcement, that
correct, but it's mostly governed by the

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Navajo nation. That's right. What
we did. We were a very small

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department, only about fourteen to fifteen
field officers, covering twenty seven thousand square

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miles of land on the Navolu Indian
Reservation. Our job took in all the

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resources renewable and non renewable, which
was agriculture, archaeology, forestry, fish

335
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and wildlife, minerals, water resources, anything even cultural resources. And in

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the park areas, we were the
park police, and so there's quite a

337
00:30:51.519 --> 00:30:57.160
few parks like Monument Valley and Kidrichi
and other tribal parks all over the reservation

338
00:31:00.079 --> 00:31:07.440
up and then we had search and
rescue responsibilities on top of that. Navajo

339
00:31:07.599 --> 00:31:19.160
Nations huge that's right. It covers
areas in northeastern Arizona, southeastern Utah,

340
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and northwestern New Mexico. Mm hmm, so very very big area. And

341
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so you guys must have kept really, really busy. Yeah, it's in

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00:31:30.880 --> 00:31:34.920
fact, I should stay right up
front. The paranormal cases that we did

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account for less than one percent of
the entire workload that we had, and

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yet the cases that we worked on
I consider very significant. How long have

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you had you been working for the
Navajo Nation and what is kind of the

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relationship with the federal federal law enforcement
Okay, I've on and off with the

347
00:32:01.119 --> 00:32:10.039
Nation for well, let's see twenty
seven years and four years with another police

348
00:32:10.079 --> 00:32:16.160
agency outside the reservation. I made
it up to the rank of lieutenant,

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so I was in charge of all
the Arizona and Utah portions for supervision.

350
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Our officers are all trained at the
Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, so they

351
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are recognized by the federal government as
federal officers. So that's how that falls

352
00:32:40.240 --> 00:32:44.880
in. And then later on for
some of them, like me, I

353
00:32:44.960 --> 00:32:51.680
went to the Criminal Investigation School at
Glencoe, Georgia for about ten weeks to

354
00:32:51.799 --> 00:32:57.839
be certified as a criminal investigator.
So then you start, you go and

355
00:32:57.920 --> 00:33:04.759
you start to work for the rangers. And at what point then did I

356
00:33:04.799 --> 00:33:09.680
guess how was your what was your
feeling towards the paranormal and UFOs in particular?

357
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Before getting into this well, I
had seen them on several occasions,

358
00:33:16.240 --> 00:33:24.119
very very odd, weird situations.
I saw a cigar shaped craft lying near

359
00:33:24.480 --> 00:33:30.720
near flagstaff between Winslow Flagstaff in the
middle of the night. It sounded like

360
00:33:30.759 --> 00:33:37.079
heavy machinery that was running, just
a single white light shining out of the

361
00:33:37.079 --> 00:33:44.160
front. Me and my wife,
we were driving on the road and we

362
00:33:44.279 --> 00:33:46.960
saw this thing. I remember getting
out of the vehicle and standing, turning

363
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off the vehicle and watching it.
I was maybe three hundred yards away from

364
00:33:52.680 --> 00:34:00.559
it, and she she just became
very, very fearful, and I remember

365
00:34:00.599 --> 00:34:06.559
I was just completely filled with awe
watching this thing. And since then,

366
00:34:07.079 --> 00:34:14.440
you know, we've seen them on
other occasions. I've actually investigated some small

367
00:34:14.559 --> 00:34:22.079
cases involving landings and people that had
seen them. And then we had quite

368
00:34:22.119 --> 00:34:29.400
a large incident up here just before
the Phoenix lights came out. The night

369
00:34:29.480 --> 00:34:34.719
before, we had quite a light
show up here with the trap that were

370
00:34:34.760 --> 00:34:38.599
following each other on the horizon,
six or seven of them and circling in

371
00:34:38.679 --> 00:34:45.800
a counterclockwise direction, making a big
circle through the Hockey National Monument area,

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across the Winslow, up toward the
Delcan and Second Mesa, all the way

373
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around to coal Mine, to the
city and back down to Cameron. And

374
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and you know, we watched My
whole neighborhood actually came out, turned off

375
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all their lights and we watched these
things circle us. For most of them

376
00:35:08.159 --> 00:35:14.599
thirty to forty minutes. They would
follow each other, the first one to

377
00:35:14.679 --> 00:35:19.280
change color, the next one to
change color, just like like they're all

378
00:35:19.360 --> 00:35:24.519
copying each other. They changed from
blue, red, yellow, green,

379
00:35:25.960 --> 00:35:30.800
and then occasionally the first one of
fluoresce like a flare, getting brighter and

380
00:35:30.840 --> 00:35:37.119
brighter and brighter, and the next
one would do the same thing. Eventually

381
00:35:37.159 --> 00:35:43.719
they all flew off in line towards
the west and over the Grand Canyon area

382
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and we lost sight of them.
Wow, And this was did you say

383
00:35:47.599 --> 00:35:53.039
the night before the Phoenix sights.
That's correct, and yeah, I remember

384
00:35:53.079 --> 00:36:00.239
that night. I called Cocadino County
Sheriffs and spoke to the dispatcher. I

385
00:36:00.280 --> 00:36:04.719
asked her if she had any officers
that were up on the north end that

386
00:36:04.760 --> 00:36:09.960
could verify these lights, and she
said, no, there's nobody up there,

387
00:36:10.199 --> 00:36:14.679
and I remember thinking, no,
you know, she's probably going to

388
00:36:14.719 --> 00:36:19.519
think I'm crazy. I just told
her neighbor mind and hung up the phone.

389
00:36:20.239 --> 00:36:25.840
So we couldn't get any law enforcement
from the county to verify anything that

390
00:36:25.920 --> 00:36:31.719
was going on. These things were
totally silent, and towards the end,

391
00:36:32.199 --> 00:36:37.880
we actually had a fixed wing fly
over at high altitude and you could hear

392
00:36:37.880 --> 00:36:45.199
the engine occurring that you couldn't hear
these things circling us. Mh wow.

393
00:36:45.119 --> 00:36:49.920
How many people do you think saw
that? Oh? There had to have

394
00:36:49.960 --> 00:36:53.639
been at least sixty in my block
alone. I mean everybody was out on

395
00:36:53.679 --> 00:36:58.960
their lawns, out in the front
yards of lawn chairs. The kids were

396
00:36:59.000 --> 00:37:05.480
all running around playing. Everything was
blacked out and everybody was watching this.

397
00:37:06.079 --> 00:37:10.360
We thought we were going to see
all kinds of reporters descend on our town

398
00:37:10.480 --> 00:37:15.920
here and loop, and nobody came
out because the Phoenix Lights came out the

399
00:37:15.960 --> 00:37:21.000
next day. It was all over
the news and it just totally eclipsed everything.

400
00:37:21.360 --> 00:37:25.239
Phoenix took all your thunder. Yeah
yeah, and we think that these

401
00:37:25.440 --> 00:37:32.159
these were related to the Phoenix lights, even though they weren't in that delta

402
00:37:32.199 --> 00:37:39.719
wing configuration. You know that it
looked like individual craft that were circling.

403
00:37:40.760 --> 00:37:45.400
And how did your neighbors, How
did the neighborhood react? What did your

404
00:37:45.440 --> 00:37:51.320
neighbors think of these lights? You
know, everybody just kind of accepted it.

405
00:37:51.639 --> 00:37:55.000
Nobody got excited, nobody phoned the
press or anything else. It was

406
00:37:55.079 --> 00:38:00.679
just one of those things that that
seemed to happen, and it's just filed

407
00:38:00.719 --> 00:38:05.880
away for future reference. And I
find that I find the same attitude all

408
00:38:05.880 --> 00:38:10.519
over the reservation that no matter what
community you go into as a ranger,

409
00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:15.960
once they start understanding that you're interested
in this stuff, they'll they'll start telling

410
00:38:15.960 --> 00:38:19.920
these stories. Oh yeah, you
know, we saw orbs, we saw

411
00:38:19.960 --> 00:38:24.800
these crafts flying over. You know, all these incidentss nobody really knows about

412
00:38:25.239 --> 00:38:30.519
and what everybody in that community knows, and they just pretty much accept it

413
00:38:30.559 --> 00:38:39.360
as something that happens out here,
and it's to be expected almost. I've

414
00:38:39.360 --> 00:38:45.199
spoken to police officers something the cant
area that said that they saw lights so

415
00:38:45.360 --> 00:38:51.960
often they would go out on patrol
around midnight and talk about going to see

416
00:38:51.960 --> 00:38:57.360
the submarine races because the lights would
show up out on the horizon and they'd

417
00:38:57.360 --> 00:39:02.280
watch them. Oh wow. So
you know, and officers all over the

418
00:39:02.320 --> 00:39:07.119
reservation have stories like that where they
seem unusual things that night when they're out

419
00:39:07.119 --> 00:39:13.880
there. Are you still in Loop
now? Yeah, that's where I live,

420
00:39:14.159 --> 00:39:20.679
okay? And that's about forty miles
east of flag Staff. What about

421
00:39:20.719 --> 00:39:25.639
one hundred and fifty miles north of
Phoenix? Is that about right? Yeah?

422
00:39:25.679 --> 00:39:30.039
About one hundred and twenty miles to
get the flag Staff and Loop is

423
00:39:30.079 --> 00:39:36.280
about forty five miles northeast of Flagstaff. Oh okay, okay cool. So

424
00:39:36.800 --> 00:39:38.400
just to give some of the listeners
an idea of how close you are,

425
00:39:38.920 --> 00:39:43.000
we'll get into some of those other
stories in law enforcement. There's a couple

426
00:39:43.039 --> 00:39:47.119
of things I want to touch on
before that. But one thing is is

427
00:39:47.239 --> 00:39:52.599
you yourself are not Navajo? Is
that correct? Well? I am part

428
00:39:52.679 --> 00:40:00.440
Navajo? Oh okay, and I'm
also part They used to call how Apache

429
00:40:00.679 --> 00:40:06.480
Okay there now they refer to it
as the Apache Tribe of Oklahoma with his

430
00:40:06.920 --> 00:40:15.639
small tribe maybe about thirty five members
there on part of Southern Cheyenne, and

431
00:40:16.679 --> 00:40:25.239
in the Southern Cheyenne, I'm a
direct descendant from White Anelope who so who

432
00:40:25.280 --> 00:40:29.639
was who was killed in Sand Creek
that he was one of the peace chiefs,

433
00:40:30.079 --> 00:40:35.280
and then on part Filipino. So
I kind of hit into just about

434
00:40:35.320 --> 00:40:40.480
any group. And where are you
originally from? Originally, I was born

435
00:40:40.519 --> 00:40:45.719
and raised in Los Angeles, California, along with thousands and thousands of other

436
00:40:46.039 --> 00:40:52.400
Native Americans. A lot of them
ended up out there during the war years

437
00:40:52.400 --> 00:40:58.880
and just haaved. So there's a
huge community of Navahos out there, and

438
00:40:58.880 --> 00:41:02.000
and you know, I grew up
out there and move out here about nineteen

439
00:41:02.159 --> 00:41:08.039
seventy six and ended up moving to
the reservation and getting a job there in

440
00:41:08.079 --> 00:41:13.440
nineteen eighty. Okay, gotcha.
Great. So you're a city boy,

441
00:41:14.840 --> 00:41:19.639
Oh yeah, yeah, I learned
to be a country boy. Yeah.

442
00:41:19.679 --> 00:41:23.920
I really appreciate the quiet out here
now, yeah, my gotcha. So

443
00:41:24.000 --> 00:41:28.960
one of the things before we get
too far, I want to talk about

444
00:41:29.039 --> 00:41:32.400
because I was really floored by it, because it's a personal experience is that

445
00:41:32.719 --> 00:41:37.239
last weekend, you know, you
and your partner Stan, who I'm going

446
00:41:37.280 --> 00:41:44.159
to interview next week, came out
to do a talk for the Arizona move

447
00:41:44.239 --> 00:41:47.480
On And I think I've told the
listeners, but I'm a state section director

448
00:41:47.599 --> 00:41:51.679
out here for move On in Arizona. And so I was there and we

449
00:41:51.719 --> 00:41:57.400
did. We all went on a
SkyWatch afterwards, and you all brought some

450
00:41:57.760 --> 00:42:00.840
of your night vision gear, and
I want to talk about, you know,

451
00:42:01.480 --> 00:42:06.559
the details on that gear. But
I was really floored by what we

452
00:42:06.599 --> 00:42:09.960
saw, By what I saw,
I mean, you let me use them,

453
00:42:10.360 --> 00:42:15.159
and within a few minutes, you
know, I saw four or five

454
00:42:15.400 --> 00:42:20.079
crafts, and I mean when I
first saw them, they were all very

455
00:42:20.119 --> 00:42:23.360
close to each other, and then
they're all kind of as if they had

456
00:42:23.440 --> 00:42:30.280
all converged or maybe just recently crossed
each other's paths, but they were all

457
00:42:30.400 --> 00:42:36.119
moving in separate directions. There was
another lady, Karen, who had night

458
00:42:36.199 --> 00:42:39.599
vision, and she saw them.
I think you got your night vision on

459
00:42:39.639 --> 00:42:44.360
there pretty quick, and you saw
and then a couple of these objects were

460
00:42:44.400 --> 00:42:49.119
bright enough where at least the lady
Michelle, who was standing by me,

461
00:42:49.280 --> 00:42:52.719
was able to see a couple of
them. With her eyes. But that

462
00:42:52.000 --> 00:43:00.559
was really strange. What did you
see? Well? I saw these these

463
00:43:00.639 --> 00:43:06.039
life they looked like in the night
vision they look like almost like you would

464
00:43:06.039 --> 00:43:15.519
see a satellite. Look. They're
all traveling at pretty much the same speeds.

465
00:43:15.719 --> 00:43:21.480
I couldn't tell that they had converged
on straight lines and then we're heading

466
00:43:21.519 --> 00:43:24.559
off in different directions. But it
looked to me as if they had been

467
00:43:24.599 --> 00:43:30.920
traveling in one direction and then they
all broke up and turned and tracked in

468
00:43:31.039 --> 00:43:37.239
different directions. And this is I
didn't get to see them when they were

469
00:43:37.239 --> 00:43:43.199
first discovered until a little bit later
when they were heading off in different directions.

470
00:43:43.719 --> 00:43:49.599
And I thought that was unusual to
see that many satellites in that close

471
00:43:49.639 --> 00:43:54.599
a proximity to each other. Usually
you'll see one or two satellites. I

472
00:43:54.679 --> 00:44:00.639
do know that there's thousands and thousands
of objects up in state, but to

473
00:44:00.719 --> 00:44:06.840
have that many crisscross each other all
at once was quite an amazing sight.

474
00:44:07.559 --> 00:44:10.519
Yeah, I have never seen anything
like that. I haven't. I've gotten

475
00:44:10.559 --> 00:44:17.039
to use night vision goggles a bit, but have you ever seen anything like

476
00:44:17.079 --> 00:44:23.480
that before with them? Actually?
Actually no, what we use them for

477
00:44:23.639 --> 00:44:30.480
tactical operations, so we're looking on
the ground, looking for people and to

478
00:44:30.519 --> 00:44:34.559
see our way around in the dark, and even to drive with on occasion.

479
00:44:35.320 --> 00:44:40.159
And really, yeah, so you
don't get a real chance to look

480
00:44:42.559 --> 00:44:46.800
into the sky from a fixed location
because you're always pretty much busy. And

481
00:44:47.599 --> 00:44:52.960
if you wear them enough, like
I have, you get to the point

482
00:44:52.960 --> 00:44:57.719
where you know you put them on
and it's like, uh, you know,

483
00:44:57.920 --> 00:45:02.760
more work, So it's not really
a recreational thing. And a lot

484
00:45:02.800 --> 00:45:07.400
of times you don't even care to
look at them because you know, you

485
00:45:07.440 --> 00:45:13.000
know, you've got some work to
do. So you guys will put these

486
00:45:13.039 --> 00:45:15.280
on, I guess to sneak up
in your vehicles. You'll drive your vehicle

487
00:45:15.320 --> 00:45:22.320
with the lights off and wearing the
goggles. Oh sure. It's actually not

488
00:45:22.440 --> 00:45:28.280
the safest thing to do because when
you're worrying those you have a one dimensional

489
00:45:28.360 --> 00:45:32.519
view of things, or I should
say two dimensional views, and you don't

490
00:45:32.840 --> 00:45:38.440
really have that depth of field where
you can see in relation to three D

491
00:45:38.559 --> 00:45:44.559
objects. So if you're not trained
with them, if you don't use them

492
00:45:44.559 --> 00:45:47.880
all the time, you could get
yourself in serious trouble trying to drive with

493
00:45:49.000 --> 00:45:53.039
those things. Yeah, those were
really impressive. My boss and open Minds

494
00:45:53.079 --> 00:46:00.760
has a couple of night vision some
goggles or binoculars. It's really kind of

495
00:46:00.760 --> 00:46:06.480
a monocular. But and I know
he spent a lot of money on those.

496
00:46:06.559 --> 00:46:12.079
But the ones you had were very
small but very powerful. I mean,

497
00:46:12.159 --> 00:46:17.159
I think more powerful than anything he
had had. They were pretty impressive.

498
00:46:19.719 --> 00:46:28.199
Yeah, those are PVS four teams. They're a one eye uh you

499
00:46:28.239 --> 00:46:34.519
know deal just one two the image
intensifier troops or the desks there. I

500
00:46:34.519 --> 00:46:39.360
think they were the top three percent
out of the out of the manufactor and

501
00:46:40.480 --> 00:46:49.559
so there we had to wait longer
for them because the the manufacturers were making

502
00:46:49.559 --> 00:46:55.360
them for soldiers over in Iraq and
in Afghanistan, and of course we told

503
00:46:55.440 --> 00:47:00.079
him, no, you make theirs
first, and so we waited quite a

504
00:47:00.159 --> 00:47:06.119
number of months, I think about
eight months before we got and because we

505
00:47:06.159 --> 00:47:10.000
had waited so long and we're so
nice about it, out of the production

506
00:47:10.159 --> 00:47:15.159
run, they gave us the best
twos. Oh wow, great, And

507
00:47:15.239 --> 00:47:19.000
I mean they're just so light and
tiny. I mean I was, it's

508
00:47:19.079 --> 00:47:23.480
really incredible and the power is yeah, you can I can see how you

509
00:47:23.519 --> 00:47:28.119
know, crawling around in the desert
or wherever. They can be extremely useful.

510
00:47:28.159 --> 00:47:31.880
I mean, you can really see
a lot. Yeah, these these

511
00:47:31.880 --> 00:47:38.800
are we're purchased and then they were
issued to the different numbers on the UH

512
00:47:39.840 --> 00:47:46.039
on the rangers that were had training
in SWAT or tactical training, which is

513
00:47:46.480 --> 00:47:52.119
a whole another eighty hours of training
that you have to go through. Well,

514
00:47:52.199 --> 00:47:54.679
I was very thankful, thank you
for bringing those because that was a

515
00:47:54.800 --> 00:47:59.800
very interesting experience because, like you, all I saw was them moving straight

516
00:48:00.079 --> 00:48:02.840
in a steady at a steady speed
like a satellite would. But it was

517
00:48:02.920 --> 00:48:09.239
just so odd to see so many
in one spot. That was very strange.

518
00:48:09.760 --> 00:48:15.239
Who knows, huh. So,
getting back to your work as a

519
00:48:15.320 --> 00:48:22.000
ranger, when was it, I
guess that you first maybe received a paranormal

520
00:48:22.159 --> 00:48:27.960
call and decided to go investigated.
Did you have to get permission? How

521
00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:35.880
did your peers react? Well,
I'll have to qualify the statement because all

522
00:48:35.920 --> 00:48:42.440
the rangers over the years have had
to deal with different small parnormal cases from

523
00:48:43.360 --> 00:48:50.119
witchcraft, haunted places, UFOs,
and bigfoot, and none of these calls

524
00:48:51.000 --> 00:48:54.400
they would be responding to on a
case by case basis, and a lot

525
00:48:54.400 --> 00:49:00.960
of the rangers received these calls in
the field and either give advice or go

526
00:49:00.000 --> 00:49:05.000
out there and investigate them, but
nothing was ever written because we didn't have

527
00:49:05.039 --> 00:49:12.079
a classification for them. So what
happens is that all through our careers we've

528
00:49:12.119 --> 00:49:17.559
been actually looking into cases like these. Now. Ten years ago there was

529
00:49:17.679 --> 00:49:23.400
a major case that took place up
in the Shipwreck Bluefield area of Nenexico,

530
00:49:24.400 --> 00:49:30.480
and in this case, there were
over thirty witnesses to a big foot siding.

531
00:49:32.440 --> 00:49:37.519
Some of the witnesses got rather close
to this thing. They described it

532
00:49:37.559 --> 00:49:43.599
as being able to step right over
barboi or fences that are about four feet

533
00:49:44.400 --> 00:49:51.440
tall, and a lot of them
were very alarmed, and some of them

534
00:49:51.760 --> 00:49:57.400
were actually scared. They had gone
to a local police department in the area

535
00:49:58.719 --> 00:50:02.920
who I guess will for the purposes
of this interview who remain unnamed, that

536
00:50:04.119 --> 00:50:12.239
the lieutenant there put in the local
paper, what are these people drinking?

537
00:50:12.719 --> 00:50:17.599
And he was laughing about it.
So the people just clammed up and they

538
00:50:17.639 --> 00:50:21.320
said, we don't want anything to
do with these guys anymore. We don't,

539
00:50:21.800 --> 00:50:25.760
you know, we don't want them
to handle our case. Shortly after,

540
00:50:25.840 --> 00:50:30.400
we got a call asking if the
rangers would be interested in coming up

541
00:50:30.440 --> 00:50:35.360
and looking into this matter. So
we listed it at the time under as

542
00:50:35.400 --> 00:50:39.840
a wild animal case, because in
a lot of cases bears that are standing

543
00:50:39.880 --> 00:50:45.440
up can also be confused for bigfoot, and it was the only thing in

544
00:50:45.480 --> 00:50:51.519
our code that would allow us to
actually label it. We sent got a

545
00:50:51.559 --> 00:50:58.039
hasty team together of about five rangers, and we got a bigfoot expert to

546
00:50:58.079 --> 00:51:04.679
come along with us, and we
went up there and for three days and

547
00:51:04.679 --> 00:51:09.280
two nights pretty much investigated it,
surveilled it. We had night vision,

548
00:51:09.440 --> 00:51:16.559
we had a ford looking in for
red cameras and video systems, and we

549
00:51:16.719 --> 00:51:22.880
scoured the area on foot, interviewed
witnesses and by the time we were done,

550
00:51:23.079 --> 00:51:28.440
everybody was happy that we had looked
into it. We did find evidence,

551
00:51:29.480 --> 00:51:34.599
foot track evidence, We found hair
samples. They were sent off and

552
00:51:34.840 --> 00:51:43.599
came back as an unknown carnivore stride
links between the footprints areas. In one

553
00:51:43.599 --> 00:51:50.639
case, there was a boggy area
that was just saturated with water and a

554
00:51:50.719 --> 00:51:55.840
huge log had been lifted out of
the bog and set aside, and the

555
00:51:55.920 --> 00:52:01.559
experts told us that this was an
attempt to get at grubs or to look

556
00:52:01.599 --> 00:52:08.000
for food. And then we had
witnesses that told us that trees had been

557
00:52:08.079 --> 00:52:13.960
ripped apart on the tops and it
was almost like a huge, huge nest

558
00:52:14.679 --> 00:52:17.480
was made up there. The big
fit experts were telling us that from the

559
00:52:17.559 --> 00:52:23.960
Muggyore into Colorado, this is part
of the migratory route that these things take.

560
00:52:25.159 --> 00:52:30.079
So we had enough up there that
it raised more questions than answers.

561
00:52:30.119 --> 00:52:37.519
That everybody was happy that at least
somebody was looking into it. And I

562
00:52:37.519 --> 00:52:42.840
mean, did you need to get
permission to look into it? And if

563
00:52:42.920 --> 00:52:46.119
so, you know or what did
your appear? Other law enforcement people say

564
00:52:46.159 --> 00:52:50.960
about, wow, you guys are
going off on you know this weird case.

565
00:52:52.199 --> 00:52:57.079
Well, we don't usually advertise what
we do, and so the other

566
00:52:57.320 --> 00:53:01.599
enforcement agencies in the area really didn't
know what was going on other than we

567
00:53:01.599 --> 00:53:13.440
were out there. Our director had
made a decision that people are scared.

568
00:53:13.760 --> 00:53:19.199
They want something looked into. In
some cases, it's it's Graandma and Grandpa

569
00:53:19.239 --> 00:53:23.519
that have lived out there all their
lives and they something howling that they can't

570
00:53:23.559 --> 00:53:29.960
identify, and they know all the
animal sounds and they just want somebody to

571
00:53:30.039 --> 00:53:34.800
listen to them and take them seriously. So from that point on, there

572
00:53:34.880 --> 00:53:42.079
was a determination made that all these
cases will be documented investigated in a professional

573
00:53:42.119 --> 00:53:47.960
manner, and we will provide that
opportunity for somebody to speak out and listen

574
00:53:49.000 --> 00:53:57.280
to them without ridicule, without packing, and and actually take the information down

575
00:53:57.320 --> 00:54:02.159
and document it. And because most
of these victims don't want to be identified,

576
00:54:02.880 --> 00:54:07.880
uh, these files get get pretty
much locked down so that no other

577
00:54:07.159 --> 00:54:13.679
officers have access to them. Uh. They're locked with passworded within the system

578
00:54:14.639 --> 00:54:20.320
and become a very private matter.
That but that's how it started. And

579
00:54:20.400 --> 00:54:24.360
as people started to understand that we
were willing to listen and handle these cases

580
00:54:24.400 --> 00:54:30.239
professionally and investigate them in a thorough
manner, they started calling us with more

581
00:54:30.280 --> 00:54:36.199
and more paranormal cases. And we
didn't get to love. You know,

582
00:54:36.360 --> 00:54:39.559
there wasn't a whole bunch of them
all at once. It was just every

583
00:54:39.639 --> 00:54:45.280
now and then we'd get cases that
came in and uh and we would me

584
00:54:45.360 --> 00:54:51.360
and stand were in a section called
Special Projects, and so we were the

585
00:54:51.360 --> 00:54:55.400
ones that were tasked with handling these
kind of cases. And we grabbed individual

586
00:54:55.440 --> 00:55:04.480
arrangers on an asthmi basis and have
them assisted in the investigation. It's funny,

587
00:55:04.559 --> 00:55:07.880
really. All this is just the
reason I say that this is really

588
00:55:07.920 --> 00:55:12.480
kind of especially exciting for me in
that. You know, I've got some

589
00:55:12.639 --> 00:55:17.480
Native American roots and I've always appreciated
that and paid attention to that culture.

590
00:55:17.599 --> 00:55:23.960
But I also used to read Tony
Hillerman's books, especially in high school.

591
00:55:24.000 --> 00:55:28.760
And of course he's the guy who
wrote about these mysteries in the Southwest on

592
00:55:28.840 --> 00:55:35.960
the Navajo Reservation, and ship Rock
was always kind of the central monument to

593
00:55:36.159 --> 00:55:39.679
his stories. You know, how
far were they from Shipbrock? So now

594
00:55:39.719 --> 00:55:47.280
to couple this with kind of the
paranormal you guys are like some Navajo Ranger

595
00:55:47.559 --> 00:55:52.400
X files. It's pretty exciting.
You guys are are the ones they need

596
00:55:52.440 --> 00:56:00.639
to make a TV series out of? Okays, Yeah, we've always amongst

597
00:56:00.639 --> 00:56:07.119
ourselves Tony Hillerman's character Jim Cheese should
have been a ranger because at the time

598
00:56:07.159 --> 00:56:14.599
we didn't know if police officers had
investigated archaeology in cases like that. But

599
00:56:14.679 --> 00:56:17.800
it wasn't until much later that we
actually got to talk to Philly Hillarman and

600
00:56:19.239 --> 00:56:23.119
inform him, and he actually put
the ranger's name and I think one of

601
00:56:23.159 --> 00:56:30.480
his last books, okay, and
thanked us for our help. Now,

602
00:56:30.519 --> 00:56:34.920
did you did you mention to him
any of the paranormal staff? No,

603
00:56:35.000 --> 00:56:39.000
not at that time. He just
came down for a quick chat and and

604
00:56:39.119 --> 00:56:44.119
put us in the in the front
dedication for his book. Cool. I'll

605
00:56:44.119 --> 00:56:47.760
have to send him a link maybe
to these interviews because just because I was

606
00:56:47.800 --> 00:56:52.000
a fan, and also to see
what he thinks. I think he'd be

607
00:56:52.000 --> 00:56:57.039
pretty open minded. His books were
pretty open minded, I think. Right,

608
00:56:58.519 --> 00:57:00.039
So, how did you build person? Looking at I mean, how

609
00:57:00.079 --> 00:57:06.199
do you approach these Have you always
had kind of an open mind kind of

610
00:57:06.280 --> 00:57:10.599
just to these events, or like
a lot of other law enforcement or people

611
00:57:10.639 --> 00:57:17.559
I've talked to, sometimes they go
into these things very skeptical, but then

612
00:57:17.760 --> 00:57:22.960
you know, do their due diligence
and then sometimes find that there's more to

613
00:57:22.960 --> 00:57:28.519
do this and MEETSI. Well,
of course, when you go into it

614
00:57:28.519 --> 00:57:36.800
as an investigator, you can't have
your mind made up about anything. What

615
00:57:36.840 --> 00:57:40.440
you're looking for is evidence, and
as the evidence collects, you let the

616
00:57:40.440 --> 00:57:46.000
evidence speak for itself. And so
say you go to a car accident,

617
00:57:46.519 --> 00:57:52.599
You're not going to get statements from
the people that were involved right away,

618
00:57:52.639 --> 00:57:55.400
because everybody's statement is going to be
different. What you do is you look

619
00:57:55.440 --> 00:57:59.800
at the evidence on the roadway,
the skid marks, the yaw marks,

620
00:58:00.960 --> 00:58:07.239
the gouges. You determined in your
own mind what has happened, what were

621
00:58:07.239 --> 00:58:12.119
the chain of events, and then
you get your witness statements and they should

622
00:58:12.159 --> 00:58:17.000
coincide with the physical evidence on the
ground. You approach one of these investigations

623
00:58:17.039 --> 00:58:23.880
the same way. You don't have
a preconceived idea that they're wrong or they're

624
00:58:23.960 --> 00:58:30.360
right. You try to collect as
much physical evidence, as much photograph evidence

625
00:58:30.400 --> 00:58:35.639
as you can, and then you
let the stories kind of flesh that out

626
00:58:35.679 --> 00:58:38.480
a little bit as far as how
they felt, what their emotions were,

627
00:58:38.840 --> 00:58:45.119
what their thoughts were. You also
look into it from a standpoint of you

628
00:58:45.159 --> 00:58:51.280
know, how are they drug users? Are they using prescription drugs that could

629
00:58:51.320 --> 00:58:57.000
have altered their perceptions? Are they
drinking at the time, or are they

630
00:58:57.000 --> 00:59:01.360
an alcoholic from the past, You
know, do they have any physical illness

631
00:59:02.199 --> 00:59:07.840
or mental anything going on mentally that
would detract from what they're telling you.

632
00:59:08.559 --> 00:59:14.039
And once you establish all this and
you get your statements, a lot of

633
00:59:14.039 --> 00:59:20.639
the times the statements are very solid
statements, statements that if you were to

634
00:59:20.679 --> 00:59:24.599
take it to a homicide trial,
somebody would be going to prison or going

635
00:59:24.639 --> 00:59:30.719
to death row. And that's the
thing that really strikes me about these cases

636
00:59:31.519 --> 00:59:38.800
is that when you investigate them properly
and you look for that evidence or the

637
00:59:40.719 --> 00:59:45.559
and I have the backup just a
minute here, when you're talking with people,

638
00:59:45.880 --> 00:59:51.960
interviewing them, even interrogating them,
you're attempting to get to the truth

639
00:59:52.920 --> 00:59:59.920
of what they're saying, and you
use body language, you use expressions,

640
01:00:00.079 --> 01:00:05.800
gestures, micro expressions that might flash
across their face. Just for a second.

641
01:00:06.119 --> 01:00:09.719
We're trying to look at the eyes, the pupils, every aspect of

642
01:00:09.760 --> 01:00:15.800
somebody giving you a statement to see
if physically they're telling you the truth or

643
01:00:15.840 --> 01:00:22.639
if they're being deceptive and telling you
something that they're making up. And there

644
01:00:22.039 --> 01:00:25.719
are ways, there are established schools
for these things, and that's how we're

645
01:00:25.719 --> 01:00:31.840
trying to investigrs M. And we're
looking at the totality of the whole thing,

646
01:00:32.880 --> 01:00:36.920
right, And I guess you know
one thing that I hadn't thought of

647
01:00:37.039 --> 01:00:43.280
before the way you had worded this
is that you all have a good understanding

648
01:00:43.440 --> 01:00:52.320
of what amount of evidence it takes
to, for instance, convict a perpetrator

649
01:00:52.960 --> 01:00:59.280
of a crime. So you can
kind of measure the level of evidence that

650
01:00:59.320 --> 01:01:05.039
you collect in a paranormal case to
determine whether or not you feel something is

651
01:01:05.079 --> 01:01:10.239
actually some sort of anomalous event has
taken place. Right, maybe you can't

652
01:01:10.360 --> 01:01:19.800
establish that some kind of a UFO
foo over this area, but you can

653
01:01:20.000 --> 01:01:25.639
establish that there were results from that
and enough witnesses that has solid statements that

654
01:01:25.760 --> 01:01:31.480
can say, yes, this happened. Something happened. And occasionally you'll get

655
01:01:31.519 --> 01:01:37.039
cases where we had one where somebody's
a UFO had gone over a vehicle.

656
01:01:37.880 --> 01:01:44.679
The vehicle calmed out, the person
ended up taking the vehicle back to the

657
01:01:45.199 --> 01:01:52.159
to the dealership because under the Arizona
Lemon law and said that this vehicle doesn't

658
01:01:52.239 --> 01:01:55.000
work. You know what happened.
It was a brand new vehicle. They

659
01:01:55.440 --> 01:01:59.920
took all the computers out and replaced
them. They still couldn't get the deal

660
01:02:00.599 --> 01:02:05.360
right. They ended up giving the
person a new vehicle. So, you

661
01:02:05.440 --> 01:02:07.679
know, you have some kind of
a direct evidence that says, hey,

662
01:02:07.719 --> 01:02:14.960
here's here's something that went over this
vehicle that caused all the electronics in the

663
01:02:15.039 --> 01:02:21.800
vehicle to pretty much scramble. And
so now here's a direct effect of you

664
01:02:21.840 --> 01:02:27.039
know, could it be coincidental that
a UFO flew over this thing at a

665
01:02:27.079 --> 01:02:32.119
low altitude and suddenly everything goes out
in the vehicle. So there's some direct

666
01:02:32.119 --> 01:02:37.719
evidence. And we'll talk a little
bit more about direct evidence in relation to

667
01:02:37.760 --> 01:02:43.199
one of the cases that I worked
on involving a young lady that was followed

668
01:02:43.199 --> 01:02:50.159
by orbs. Right, And yeah, we'll get into these cases because these

669
01:02:50.199 --> 01:02:52.480
are great, But just one more
question before we get into these, at

670
01:02:52.559 --> 01:02:57.400
least a couple of these really great
cases you talked about that move on,

671
01:02:57.920 --> 01:03:06.599
which is the Navajo people. Are
they pretty open minded to this step or

672
01:03:07.360 --> 01:03:09.840
are they more like the general public. Some people believe in it, some

673
01:03:09.920 --> 01:03:16.119
people are just don't want anything to
do with it. Well, even I

674
01:03:16.239 --> 01:03:22.320
have to again qualify the statement I
don't I don't really use the term believer

675
01:03:23.159 --> 01:03:30.719
because belief indicates that you have to
have a faith system that there's no evidence

676
01:03:30.400 --> 01:03:36.519
that you're just you're just going to
believe that that it's true. And in

677
01:03:36.599 --> 01:03:40.360
these cases, enough people have seen
enough things, things that have landed,

678
01:03:40.400 --> 01:03:47.000
things that have flown over so often
that it's just a fact of life.

679
01:03:49.000 --> 01:03:52.519
And the only thing is that on
the reservation out here, we don't have

680
01:03:53.360 --> 01:04:00.159
the infrastructure like every other town does. We have body cell reception, even

681
01:04:00.159 --> 01:04:04.679
though there's there's a company out here
that provides sell service. It's mainly in

682
01:04:04.760 --> 01:04:11.519
the in the main towns. We
don't have internet like everybody else does,

683
01:04:11.519 --> 01:04:17.920
so all the navelos on Facebook,
we don't have the data communications. Even

684
01:04:17.960 --> 01:04:25.840
the police don't have uh, you
know, good radio communications everywhere. And

685
01:04:25.960 --> 01:04:30.239
that's just a fact of life out
here. So a lot of the information

686
01:04:30.400 --> 01:04:34.679
is kept here that I've heard the
reservation described in UFO circles as a black

687
01:04:34.719 --> 01:04:40.679
hole that no information really gets out. There's there's lots of things that go

688
01:04:40.800 --> 01:04:43.960
on. Like I said, any
community you go to and you spend enough

689
01:04:44.000 --> 01:04:46.719
time in, they'll they'll start telling
you about all these things that have happened.

690
01:04:48.119 --> 01:04:53.719
I've had people tell me about a
certain mesa that, uh, these

691
01:04:53.840 --> 01:04:59.679
orbs will come out and chase you
and chase people away from there, and

692
01:04:59.239 --> 01:05:01.960
uh and they so that they were
on horseback up there and these orbs came

693
01:05:02.000 --> 01:05:05.679
out, but they said they described
them as four to six inches in diameter

694
01:05:06.519 --> 01:05:11.679
and just fleot straight at them and
a lot they were going to knock them

695
01:05:11.719 --> 01:05:15.119
out, the horses and they've got
out of there and they've never been back

696
01:05:15.159 --> 01:05:19.559
there since. They're supposed to take
me there and then they changed their minds

697
01:05:19.599 --> 01:05:25.079
because a lot of these things are
seen as as something to do with evil

698
01:05:25.119 --> 01:05:30.199
spirits, with witchcraft, and to
bring it out and bring attention to it

699
01:05:30.239 --> 01:05:36.559
is to ask these things to have
more in effect in your life. And

700
01:05:36.639 --> 01:05:41.239
so a lot of the older navihosts
just say, you don't talk about it,

701
01:05:41.320 --> 01:05:47.679
leave it alone. They happened and
that's it. And so unless they

702
01:05:47.719 --> 01:05:50.400
really trust you, they're not gonna
you know, you can't just go to

703
01:05:50.400 --> 01:05:55.760
an avil family and they tell me
about your UFO experience that they're going to

704
01:05:55.800 --> 01:06:02.360
climb up and not really say anything
interesting. So let's get into then that

705
01:06:02.679 --> 01:06:05.559
case with the orbs that you were
talking about, and if you can kind

706
01:06:05.559 --> 01:06:15.800
of review that. Okay, this
is in June of twenty eleven. A

707
01:06:15.880 --> 01:06:25.079
young lady is driving from Flagstaff to
the Loop area and she's on the road

708
01:06:25.119 --> 01:06:29.239
in the middle of the night.
This is about one o'clock one fifteen in

709
01:06:29.280 --> 01:06:34.320
the morning. She's passing these large
cinder cones as you get to the reservation

710
01:06:34.519 --> 01:06:42.199
line on Route fifteen and heading east
down. So Route fifteen is a two

711
01:06:42.280 --> 01:06:48.320
lane blacktop highway, so she's driving
along and as she gets near the cones,

712
01:06:49.559 --> 01:06:56.280
and these cones extend about maybe eight
hundred to one thousand feet up on

713
01:06:56.400 --> 01:07:03.840
each side of the roadway. They're
extinct cano events. And she notices a

714
01:07:04.199 --> 01:07:11.719
red light between two of them,
maybe about eight hundred feet up in the

715
01:07:11.760 --> 01:07:16.000
air, and she looks at it
and thinks, gee is a helicopter.

716
01:07:16.119 --> 01:07:20.719
And as she keeps going, she
starts to notice it even more. It

717
01:07:20.880 --> 01:07:26.840
just totally captures her attention, so
now she's watching it rather than tently.

718
01:07:27.639 --> 01:07:30.079
She says, the thing drifts down. It's got no strobe lights, no

719
01:07:30.159 --> 01:07:38.400
directional indicator lights. It drops lower
in elevation and starts coming toward her vehicle.

720
01:07:39.719 --> 01:07:43.320
It gets within about fifty yards of
her vehicle, and she can see

721
01:07:43.360 --> 01:07:47.599
now that it's very low to the
ground. The ground underneath is lit up,

722
01:07:48.519 --> 01:07:55.559
so she says it's maybe about ten
feet off the ground. It's hovering

723
01:07:55.599 --> 01:08:00.800
and moving. She describes it as
being red, but darker around the edges

724
01:08:00.880 --> 01:08:09.119
and lighter in the middle, which
indicates some three dimensionality. As she gets

725
01:08:09.199 --> 01:08:15.280
to the reservation line itself, the
road turns to the right and she has

726
01:08:15.320 --> 01:08:18.600
to take her eyes off this thing. And as she takes her eyes off

727
01:08:18.640 --> 01:08:25.600
the thing and continues down the highway. Now she sees something out of the

728
01:08:25.640 --> 01:08:30.319
corner of her left eye, and
she turns and looks, and this other

729
01:08:30.520 --> 01:08:38.000
orbit was rather large, the red
one. But now she sees a small

730
01:08:38.680 --> 01:08:42.399
what she describes as maybe ten inches
in diameter, a little smaller than a

731
01:08:42.479 --> 01:08:46.479
volleyball, bigger than a softball.
And she says, there's a light or

732
01:08:47.079 --> 01:08:55.000
that's following her vehicle on the opposite
side of the road where the right line

733
01:08:55.079 --> 01:09:00.079
is the road lane delineator. And
she says that this thing is about two

734
01:09:00.079 --> 01:09:05.399
feet off the ground and she's doing
sixty five miles an hour and it's keeping

735
01:09:05.439 --> 01:09:12.000
up with her vehicle slightly behind.
She has a presence of mind to note

736
01:09:12.000 --> 01:09:18.279
the time as being right around one
fifteen in the morning. She takes her

737
01:09:18.359 --> 01:09:28.359
cellphone camera and she puts on the
video and she centers it in the front

738
01:09:28.520 --> 01:09:31.920
so she can see the road and
the headlights turns it to the left.

739
01:09:32.079 --> 01:09:38.079
She's looking where the orb is,
but the camera is not picking it up.

740
01:09:39.840 --> 01:09:44.079
She goes back to the front,
back to there nothing. She can't

741
01:09:44.079 --> 01:09:47.399
even hit record yet because there's nothing
showing up in the viewfinder, so she

742
01:09:47.479 --> 01:09:54.079
gives up. As she goes this
thing follows her for about a good mile

743
01:09:55.199 --> 01:10:00.479
and suddenly accelerates, gets about two
carlins in front of her, and then

744
01:10:00.560 --> 01:10:05.880
makes a right angle turn and goes
straight up into the sky. So now

745
01:10:05.920 --> 01:10:10.800
she starts leaning forward over the steering
wheel and looking up through the windshield,

746
01:10:10.800 --> 01:10:15.159
and she sees this thing a park
across the sky to the east, and

747
01:10:15.199 --> 01:10:20.520
she says it looks like a shooting
star. So this is not where the

748
01:10:20.560 --> 01:10:28.079
story ends. She gets back to
her house and as she pulls in the

749
01:10:28.159 --> 01:10:40.800
driveway, she sees what she describes
as a large rabbit and he's still there,

750
01:10:40.880 --> 01:10:44.399
right, yeah, And that's right, listeners, he did say rabbit.

751
01:10:45.479 --> 01:10:49.520
Yeah. Now, the rabbit to
her is very unusual. First off,

752
01:10:49.560 --> 01:10:55.720
it's about three and a half eet
high to the top of the head.

753
01:10:56.560 --> 01:11:00.399
It's sitting up like a cat on
its hot you know, with its

754
01:11:00.439 --> 01:11:08.079
front leg straight and down on its
rear. She says that the color is

755
01:11:08.239 --> 01:11:14.239
one color. It's kind of a
grayish brown color, but almost like it's

756
01:11:14.279 --> 01:11:20.119
speckled throughout the no distinct markets anywhere. She describes the eyes as black,

757
01:11:21.279 --> 01:11:30.079
and the ears are together like they're
let they're put together and parked back from

758
01:11:30.119 --> 01:11:35.560
the head arcing back toward the back, so she didn't count the ears as

759
01:11:36.199 --> 01:11:44.560
to the hive. She says,
it's just sitting there where she usually parks,

760
01:11:44.920 --> 01:11:51.720
And she actually parked about maybe six
feet to eight feet back from where

761
01:11:51.720 --> 01:12:00.600
she usually parks her vehicle and just
sits there, kind of terrified and panicked.

762
01:12:00.680 --> 01:12:05.720
And she gets on the phone calls
her brother who lives in Phoenix,

763
01:12:06.000 --> 01:12:11.479
and she's telling him what she's seeing. So she stays on the phone with

764
01:12:11.600 --> 01:12:15.000
him for about a good fifteen minutes
staring at this thing. She says,

765
01:12:15.039 --> 01:12:21.520
it never moves, it just sits
there, and after a while she says,

766
01:12:21.600 --> 01:12:28.319
I'm going to make a run for
the door. She turns off the

767
01:12:28.600 --> 01:12:31.359
vehicle and gets out of the vehicle. Now, one of the things that

768
01:12:31.399 --> 01:12:36.479
I didn't say at the conference that
I thought was significant, that was kind

769
01:12:36.479 --> 01:12:41.279
of kicking myself later, she says
that once she gets out of the car,

770
01:12:42.640 --> 01:12:46.359
usually in a community you'll hear dogs
barking at any time of the night.

771
01:12:47.760 --> 01:12:51.720
This is summertime, so you're going
to hear all the crickets chirping and

772
01:12:53.159 --> 01:12:56.680
buzzs and everything else. Everything that
makes noise is making noise at night.

773
01:12:57.760 --> 01:13:02.239
She gets out and everything is absolutely
still. There's no dog spartan, there's

774
01:13:02.319 --> 01:13:09.840
no sound, there's no insect noise, nothing, and she took notice of

775
01:13:09.920 --> 01:13:15.359
that. She backs away from the
thing, getting out of the driver's door,

776
01:13:15.800 --> 01:13:18.920
steps around the back of the vehicle, and she said she kept it

777
01:13:19.000 --> 01:13:24.319
in her side the whole time until
she got to the door and went in

778
01:13:24.359 --> 01:13:30.479
the house, slams the door.
She tells her brother if if you hear

779
01:13:30.840 --> 01:13:35.720
me scream or anything, you know, all family members over here. He

780
01:13:35.880 --> 01:13:40.960
says that when she gets out of
the vehicle and towards the house, he

781
01:13:40.960 --> 01:13:46.479
hears a high pitched squealing on phone, like my feedback or something. And

782
01:13:46.560 --> 01:13:51.640
then she gets inside and she ends
up talking to him. She so shook

783
01:13:51.720 --> 01:13:57.279
up that she stayed up the rest
of the night, and she says that

784
01:13:57.399 --> 01:14:01.359
the next day she had a migraine
all day long, which is unusual because

785
01:14:01.399 --> 01:14:08.119
she's never experienced the migraine in her
life up to this point. So,

786
01:14:10.920 --> 01:14:14.319
you know, you look at things
like that and you think, okay,

787
01:14:15.039 --> 01:14:20.800
that's that's pretty wild. But when
we got a hold of mof on on

788
01:14:20.840 --> 01:14:27.399
this case, and they contacted the
Star Team, which is made up of

789
01:14:28.039 --> 01:14:33.000
the scientists and people that are very
very good at what they do. They

790
01:14:33.039 --> 01:14:39.560
advised me to pull the oil filter
on the vehicle and see if I could

791
01:14:39.560 --> 01:14:46.560
obtain it, to see about taking
magnetic readings on the vehicle with a compass

792
01:14:46.840 --> 01:14:54.199
and see if there's any anomalies on
the vehicle itself. And then what I

793
01:14:54.199 --> 01:15:01.079
did is the next morning they contacted
me and I went out there. In

794
01:15:01.119 --> 01:15:06.560
the front of the vehicle where this
young lady parks is a very hard,

795
01:15:06.720 --> 01:15:16.119
hard ground. It's a limestone shale
type area and when you walk on it,

796
01:15:16.159 --> 01:15:20.720
you don't leave any footprints. It's
just that hard. And where she

797
01:15:20.880 --> 01:15:26.079
parked her vehicle, there's that evidence
that the vehicle has stopped short from where

798
01:15:26.079 --> 01:15:31.800
she usually parks, so that was
photographed, and where this rabbit had had

799
01:15:31.840 --> 01:15:38.079
been sitting. There's a disturbed area
of ground right there where it's torn up

800
01:15:38.119 --> 01:15:42.840
a little bit, and so there's
some evidence. It's indistinct, but there's

801
01:15:42.920 --> 01:15:47.840
something that was there. Later on, when we took a compass out there,

802
01:15:48.159 --> 01:15:56.279
the compass rotated immediately and pinned on
an area from three feet away from

803
01:15:56.279 --> 01:16:00.840
the vehicle. You can move the
compass to the left and right and it

804
01:16:00.880 --> 01:16:06.239
would follow that long spot there are
two areas on the vehicle that were magnetized.

805
01:16:08.319 --> 01:16:13.279
One was in front, just right
in front of the passenger side door

806
01:16:13.720 --> 01:16:19.000
on the vehicle. The other one
was just behind the driver's seat, behind

807
01:16:19.039 --> 01:16:25.680
where the where the door closes.
If you draw a line or hold a

808
01:16:25.720 --> 01:16:31.760
string between those two points, it
goes right through the driver. And so

809
01:16:31.960 --> 01:16:39.439
this was real significant too that that
and we we even took the time to

810
01:16:39.520 --> 01:16:46.560
look for a similar vehicle that was
the same year and and took magnetic readings

811
01:16:46.640 --> 01:16:50.960
on that vehicle and we didn't find
anything. M H so pretty strange.

812
01:16:51.000 --> 01:16:57.600
I mean, she didn't mention like
an ORB flying through the car, but

813
01:16:57.760 --> 01:17:01.960
there was some sort of effect on
a car that went through. That may

814
01:17:01.960 --> 01:17:08.560
account for her migraine because there is
an effect that went through that effected a

815
01:17:08.600 --> 01:17:13.800
car and would have affected her if
she was in the driver's seat. Well,

816
01:17:13.840 --> 01:17:19.279
we looked at it and from the
reconstruction of her statements and where this

817
01:17:19.520 --> 01:17:27.199
orb was, she said it was
just a little behind and to the left

818
01:17:27.600 --> 01:17:30.520
of the vehicle. As it was
moving. It's almost as if it shot

819
01:17:30.520 --> 01:17:35.800
a beam of some kind through the
vehicle that you couldn't see. And it

820
01:17:35.840 --> 01:17:43.239
goes through one door through her and
out the other door. That's as speculation

821
01:17:43.399 --> 01:17:45.880
wise, that's the only thing we've
got at this point. It doesn't look

822
01:17:45.920 --> 01:17:51.159
like the ORB itself went through the
vehicle. That that something and maybe from

823
01:17:51.199 --> 01:17:59.439
the orb maybe it was it was
scanning something or looking at something. So

824
01:17:59.479 --> 01:18:02.279
that's all we can speculate, if, of course we can put it into

825
01:18:02.279 --> 01:18:09.920
speculation, but it's we have a
direct evidence that something happened. And what

826
01:18:09.960 --> 01:18:17.319
do you make of this strange rabbit
account. Well, I have read in

827
01:18:17.399 --> 01:18:28.079
a lot of different publications that seeing
animals, especially large animals, are associated

828
01:18:28.600 --> 01:18:35.520
with UFO abduction cases. In this
case, it was a rabbit. In

829
01:18:35.560 --> 01:18:44.399
other cases, it might be giant
butterflies. It might be deer with black

830
01:18:44.439 --> 01:18:49.319
eyes. It might be owls as
in the movie The Fourth Time. It

831
01:18:49.359 --> 01:18:54.399
could be just any number of things
that you would see. But it looks

832
01:18:54.479 --> 01:19:00.359
unusual. Now, this young lady
could describe to me the markings and and

833
01:19:00.680 --> 01:19:05.960
characteristics of jack rabbits of cotton tails, which are the two name rabbits in

834
01:19:05.960 --> 01:19:13.279
this area, and she'd never seen
anything this large that didn't have distinctive markings

835
01:19:13.399 --> 01:19:18.399
and had black eyes instead of eyes
that would grow on the headlights. So

836
01:19:18.840 --> 01:19:25.159
you know, she was cognizant enough
to pick up those details. She doesn't

837
01:19:25.239 --> 01:19:31.359
use drugs, she doesn't drink,
was not using any prescription medication during that

838
01:19:31.399 --> 01:19:38.760
time. Her statements were very lucid, and even talking to her sometime after

839
01:19:38.840 --> 01:19:44.199
that case, they hadn't really changed
some. In fact, some of the

840
01:19:44.239 --> 01:19:48.199
statements that she gave me she didn't
remember because we got to her the very

841
01:19:48.199 --> 01:19:54.239
next day. As it time goes
along, it seems like some of that

842
01:19:54.399 --> 01:20:00.840
memory is going and she doesn't remember
as clearly now lot of the things that

843
01:20:00.920 --> 01:20:03.520
she that she put in her statement
that she did sit down and at my

844
01:20:03.640 --> 01:20:10.359
request write everything down. Uh that
happened to her? Wow, pretty incredible

845
01:20:10.359 --> 01:20:16.920
account. Yeah, very very unusual. In fact, Uh, I did

846
01:20:17.520 --> 01:20:23.319
go to that area that was disturbed
and I had to kick the ground about

847
01:20:23.359 --> 01:20:29.159
three times with my boot to make
any any of that soil move and break

848
01:20:29.239 --> 01:20:33.119
up. So you know, I
know that ground is very hard for something

849
01:20:33.119 --> 01:20:38.600
to be on there. That's just
to me, that's just an indication that

850
01:20:39.520 --> 01:20:45.000
whatever she saw there was something there. Yeah. But for uh, I

851
01:20:45.039 --> 01:20:49.079
want to give enough time too to
uh talk about another case that you had

852
01:20:50.079 --> 01:20:56.680
brought up, which was one where
gentlemen had seen possible crafts right when and

853
01:20:57.199 --> 01:21:01.560
maybe even entities on the ground.
Uh yeah. We refer to this as

854
01:21:01.600 --> 01:21:06.600
the Old Man case. This is
the first case where we've got involved with

855
01:21:08.079 --> 01:21:14.800
Arizona move On. What had happened
was one of the field rangers came in

856
01:21:15.079 --> 01:21:18.119
and was talking to us and said, oh, yeah, this old man

857
01:21:18.199 --> 01:21:23.039
up in this area, you know, said that he saw a UFO land

858
01:21:23.800 --> 01:21:30.399
or come down and he saw what
you know. Well, the officer is

859
01:21:30.399 --> 01:21:34.520
telling us these these aliens that were
on the ground around his house, and

860
01:21:34.600 --> 01:21:39.680
of course we took immediate notice.
We asked if he could get in touch

861
01:21:39.680 --> 01:21:45.039
with this man again and let us
know if he would be if he would

862
01:21:45.039 --> 01:21:50.159
be willing to have us come out
and interview him. The information came back,

863
01:21:50.279 --> 01:21:54.960
yeah, he does want to talk
to us. Can we come out

864
01:21:54.960 --> 01:21:59.079
and investigate this? So before we
went out, we tried to get a

865
01:21:59.119 --> 01:22:04.840
hold of somebody and we found an
investigator's manual on the move On website at

866
01:22:04.840 --> 01:22:11.760
that time, So we needed to
use some kind of permission to use it

867
01:22:11.800 --> 01:22:17.640
because it was asking questions that we
had frankly had never considered. There was

868
01:22:17.720 --> 01:22:21.399
no way, there was no direct
phone numbers at that time. So what

869
01:22:21.479 --> 01:22:27.840
we did is we had to fill
out a CMS report, and so we

870
01:22:27.920 --> 01:22:32.439
filled out CMS report, sent it
in and we got the very next day.

871
01:22:32.439 --> 01:22:35.880
We got an immediate response and they
said, yes, we would like

872
01:22:35.920 --> 01:22:41.399
to send some of our investigators up
there with you too. You know that

873
01:22:41.600 --> 01:22:45.640
we know that you have to go
through the initial interview right away. So

874
01:22:45.920 --> 01:22:48.039
they gave us permission to use some
of the some of the material from the

875
01:22:48.079 --> 01:22:55.119
investigator's handbook, and we went out
there and interviewed him. We take the

876
01:22:55.159 --> 01:22:59.880
interview he tells us, and this
is just the short version of the story.

877
01:23:00.159 --> 01:23:04.479
He tells us that he sees a
light out in force moving through the

878
01:23:04.520 --> 01:23:10.600
trees. He initially thinks that this
is a vehicle out in the middle of

879
01:23:10.640 --> 01:23:15.279
the night driving through that he's in
actually a pretty remote area. Later on,

880
01:23:16.840 --> 01:23:23.600
he sees this thing up over the
trees and it's going down a ridgeline

881
01:23:24.000 --> 01:23:29.199
near where he lives, and it
stops at the highest point and appears to

882
01:23:29.279 --> 01:23:34.000
hover, and as it's suffering,
something comes out of the bottom. It

883
01:23:34.119 --> 01:23:40.840
travels downhill and goes to a neighbor's
house, which is maybe about three quarters

884
01:23:40.880 --> 01:23:45.199
of a mile away from where he
is, goes back to the craft again,

885
01:23:45.159 --> 01:23:50.600
and then he says it starts coming
his direction. Now he describes it

886
01:23:50.640 --> 01:23:57.880
as almost floating above the ground and
coming toward him, something light colored.

887
01:24:00.079 --> 01:24:03.640
He gets a little shook up.
About seventy five yards from the house,

888
01:24:04.000 --> 01:24:10.640
one of his dogs runs out to
it barking. And this dog is kind

889
01:24:10.640 --> 01:24:17.319
of a healer lab mix that is
a real big puppy. So he sees

890
01:24:17.359 --> 01:24:21.760
it disappear into the darkness out toward
where these things are coming, and all

891
01:24:21.760 --> 01:24:25.880
of a sudden he hears the dog, you know, yip yipe, and

892
01:24:26.119 --> 01:24:30.319
come running back. The dog runs
back to the front of the house and

893
01:24:30.119 --> 01:24:34.159
towers down next to the front doorstep, pulls up in the ball and stays

894
01:24:34.199 --> 01:24:40.159
her. The other dog that he
has is actually very vicious, and he's

895
01:24:40.199 --> 01:24:45.079
got it chained up all the time
with the doghouse. That dog never made

896
01:24:45.119 --> 01:24:48.840
a peep, never barked, just
run in his doghouse and stayed there.

897
01:24:50.560 --> 01:24:55.279
So now he's getting to feel a
little uneasy. He says, this is

898
01:24:55.319 --> 01:24:59.359
about, you know, right around
midnight one in the morning, and he

899
01:24:59.640 --> 01:25:02.840
decides to go inside the house and
lock the doors. So now he's looking

900
01:25:02.840 --> 01:25:12.359
out the window and he sees these
what he describes as four in Navajo.

901
01:25:12.359 --> 01:25:16.800
He's and he's speaking Navajo all this
time. Navo is a very descriptive language,

902
01:25:16.800 --> 01:25:21.520
but it doesn't have words for a
lean or ufo. So he's describing

903
01:25:21.640 --> 01:25:28.960
lights. He's describing what he calls
small children that are walking around his house.

904
01:25:30.039 --> 01:25:33.279
He says, they have BArch,
large heads, black eyes. Each

905
01:25:33.359 --> 01:25:41.680
one of them is dressed in a
light colored skin tight outfit, and they're

906
01:25:41.720 --> 01:25:46.319
each holding what he calls a flashlight. But each flashlight he describes the beam

907
01:25:46.359 --> 01:25:53.600
as pencil thin and almost like a
laser beam that's on all the time.

908
01:25:54.479 --> 01:26:00.079
And he describes the beams as different
colors, you know, blue, red,

909
01:26:00.720 --> 01:26:04.920
yellow, green, that kind of
thing, and they're shining them around.

910
01:26:05.079 --> 01:26:10.560
He says, like they lost something
and they're looking for something. So

911
01:26:12.279 --> 01:26:18.039
he's got he had these solar lights
around his house because there's no electricity,

912
01:26:18.159 --> 01:26:24.640
no running water, and he says
that they seem to take particular interest in

913
01:26:24.680 --> 01:26:28.680
these lights. And they walk up
to one of the lights. They're all

914
01:26:28.720 --> 01:26:30.880
standing around it. He says,
as they get close to it, the

915
01:26:31.000 --> 01:26:35.800
light begins and then goes out,
but then as they walked away from it,

916
01:26:35.880 --> 01:26:42.640
the light came back on. So
they follow these lights around, looking

917
01:26:42.680 --> 01:26:46.359
at the lights and go around to
the other side of the house, and

918
01:26:46.399 --> 01:26:50.119
then they start heading back to the
back of the house again, and by

919
01:26:50.119 --> 01:26:56.880
this time he's a little bit irritated, and he says, I decided to

920
01:26:56.920 --> 01:27:01.239
go out and confront him. So
he gets a flash like you know,

921
01:27:01.399 --> 01:27:03.479
and goes out in front of the
house. He says, I want to

922
01:27:03.479 --> 01:27:06.399
know what these children are doing out
here at this time of the night,

923
01:27:08.439 --> 01:27:12.800
and so he heads around the back
of the house. As he turned the

924
01:27:12.840 --> 01:27:17.880
corner, it's unclear if he what
he tripped over, but he whether it's

925
01:27:17.880 --> 01:27:25.800
a flagstone or some uneven surface that
he takes a fall and the flashlight in

926
01:27:25.840 --> 01:27:30.199
his hand breaks, so it went
out, he says. Next thing,

927
01:27:30.600 --> 01:27:36.880
he looks up and these things are
kind of drifting back up toward where the

928
01:27:36.920 --> 01:27:45.199
craft is covering and through the trees, and so he picks himself up and

929
01:27:45.239 --> 01:27:51.680
goes back in the house. So
that's that's the story. They go back

930
01:27:51.680 --> 01:27:57.760
into the craft, and then the
craft moves off and disappears. So we

931
01:27:59.359 --> 01:28:06.720
did our our interview with him.
We had three separate interviews with him over

932
01:28:06.760 --> 01:28:12.319
a year and a half and his
story did not change in the least.

933
01:28:12.359 --> 01:28:15.439
It was never embellished, nothing was
ever added to it. It was the

934
01:28:15.479 --> 01:28:20.279
same story. And the natural language
and the natural culture is an oral culture

935
01:28:20.359 --> 01:28:29.000
tradition, So things that are handed
down stories like that, are not embellished

936
01:28:29.079 --> 01:28:32.000
or not added to in any way. They're told exactly as they were told

937
01:28:32.000 --> 01:28:40.560
the first time. And the dog
in question, we had a crew come

938
01:28:40.600 --> 01:28:46.800
out to do radiation background readings and
they put on white tipex suits. Now,

939
01:28:46.840 --> 01:28:50.520
previously, this dog, when me
and stand got there, was jumping

940
01:28:50.560 --> 01:28:57.800
all over us. We're in uniform
jackets, green jackets on. The dogs

941
01:28:57.920 --> 01:29:00.800
just leaping up at us with muddy
pops and we're trying to We couldn't keep

942
01:29:00.800 --> 01:29:06.039
that dog away to save our lives. And the other crew gets there.

943
01:29:06.159 --> 01:29:11.960
They start putting on white tie that
suits. One of the crew personnel is

944
01:29:12.000 --> 01:29:15.520
a real animal lover and goes to
the dog and gets down and starts patting

945
01:29:15.920 --> 01:29:19.640
their knees and saying, canary.
You know, the dog saw the white

946
01:29:19.720 --> 01:29:27.039
suits, turned around, ran to
the house and cowered and would not come

947
01:29:27.039 --> 01:29:31.600
out. So here here's a direct
cause and effect. You know, I

948
01:29:31.720 --> 01:29:39.640
saw something in a white suit and
associated that with pain from from maybe that

949
01:29:39.800 --> 01:29:45.479
night and and hit my pouse.
The other dog, of course, was

950
01:29:45.520 --> 01:29:50.640
out barking at us the whole time. On the chain. Uh. We

951
01:29:50.680 --> 01:29:55.079
went through, We looked at the
lights, we looked at everything. We

952
01:29:55.199 --> 01:29:59.159
interviewed the guy. We even went
out and looked at the surrounding area and

953
01:29:59.199 --> 01:30:03.279
tried to track it because the ground
is rather soft in that area. We

954
01:30:03.319 --> 01:30:10.279
did find some tracks that did not
resemble animal tracks. They were in a

955
01:30:10.319 --> 01:30:15.399
straight line, meaning that the tracks
were one in front of the other evenly

956
01:30:15.520 --> 01:30:24.199
spaced out. But there were no
hookprints in the bottom. It just perfectly

957
01:30:24.319 --> 01:30:30.119
round. And we photographed those.
We didn't know what to make of them.

958
01:30:30.479 --> 01:30:40.880
The neighbor's house they had I think
it was eight puppies that had been

959
01:30:41.159 --> 01:30:45.359
born previously, and they were up
and you know the little fuzzy you know,

960
01:30:45.520 --> 01:30:51.279
real fuzzy hair all over them,
real small. They were just at

961
01:30:51.359 --> 01:30:55.760
the point where they were running all
over the place. All eight of them

962
01:30:55.760 --> 01:31:01.319
disappeared that same night. Wow and
range. Yeah, nobody knows what to

963
01:31:01.319 --> 01:31:10.199
make of it. How how close
is the neighbor? Their neighbor from them

964
01:31:10.319 --> 01:31:15.199
was about three quarters of a mile
away. Yeah, pretty barren area.

965
01:31:15.239 --> 01:31:17.279
I don't know if you mentioned I
think you said before this is a place

966
01:31:17.319 --> 01:31:23.439
that doesn't have running water. They
even have an outhouse, right, they

967
01:31:23.479 --> 01:31:29.960
had, they had an outhouse.
He describes these these things as walking over

968
01:31:30.000 --> 01:31:35.960
to the outhouse and actually looking in
the door at and because he had these

969
01:31:36.039 --> 01:31:41.920
lights going to the outhouse. Uh
and and a lot of people do that

970
01:31:42.000 --> 01:31:48.800
out here. So so anyway,
a very unusual case. We did have

971
01:31:49.079 --> 01:31:55.520
a couple of Move On investigators come
out and also interview him. The guy

972
01:31:55.600 --> 01:31:59.720
didn't want any publicity at all.
He told us straight out. He says,

973
01:31:59.720 --> 01:32:03.640
how, I don't want anybody to
come here and talk to me about

974
01:32:03.680 --> 01:32:09.800
this unless you know, you asked
me first. And since that incident,

975
01:32:10.119 --> 01:32:13.319
every now and then one of our
rangers will go up and check on the

976
01:32:13.359 --> 01:32:17.640
family up there. They said that
they've before that they've seen lights, and

977
01:32:17.720 --> 01:32:23.600
even after that they've seen other lights. So there's some activity that's going on.

978
01:32:25.640 --> 01:32:30.920
So how do you feel about the
case overall that what he described really

979
01:32:30.920 --> 01:32:39.720
did happen. Oh yeah, This
gentleman's veracity, as far as his attention

980
01:32:39.840 --> 01:32:45.159
to detail what he told us in
the interviews, how he described everything was

981
01:32:45.760 --> 01:32:51.119
just spot on and that it hasn't
changed over the years, and he shows

982
01:32:51.239 --> 01:32:57.920
no visible signs of deception. He's
just stating facts of what happened to him,

983
01:32:58.600 --> 01:33:02.399
and he's describing it in On one
of the interviews that we did,

984
01:33:03.039 --> 01:33:12.039
we had a certified federal court interpreter
that was doing a simultaneous translation for us,

985
01:33:12.600 --> 01:33:17.079
so we could ask them direct questions
as a result, and that the

986
01:33:17.159 --> 01:33:24.159
story was exactly the same as the
first story we got, So you know

987
01:33:24.239 --> 01:33:30.119
that that area. We've had other
cases that have happened in that same areas

988
01:33:30.399 --> 01:33:34.119
and it's the same all over the
reservation. This one just involves in occupant

989
01:33:34.159 --> 01:33:44.560
siding. Pretty interesting cases. Well, we are pretty much out of time,

990
01:33:44.720 --> 01:33:47.479
but I think we covered a lot
of great stuff. I'm sure you'll

991
01:33:48.000 --> 01:33:53.800
there's more, and perhaps we can
talk again in the future. But thank

992
01:33:53.840 --> 01:33:58.119
you so much for coming on the
show and sharing this with us. I

993
01:33:58.119 --> 01:34:01.479
guess was there anything else you wanted
to add before we're done? Oh?

994
01:34:01.560 --> 01:34:08.239
Well, you know, we're just
very thankful for Arizona Mouffon that has worked

995
01:34:08.319 --> 01:34:14.800
very closely with us on some of
these cases, and we've been we set

996
01:34:14.880 --> 01:34:24.279
up an agreement that's a gentleman's handshake
agreement for other Indian tribes to work with

997
01:34:24.479 --> 01:34:31.119
Moufon and basically how these things can
be investigated. We're trying to blueprint a

998
01:34:31.279 --> 01:34:36.680
training course for law enforcement officers that
would teach them this is how to photograph,

999
01:34:36.800 --> 01:34:41.399
this is how to collect evidence,
how to interview and get statements,

1000
01:34:41.840 --> 01:34:46.720
and this is how it applies to
paranormal and UFO cases. And we're hoping

1001
01:34:46.760 --> 01:34:55.960
to blueprint that and offered as training
from a technical standpoint so that other officers

1002
01:34:55.960 --> 01:35:00.880
can be better prepared. Would it
be great because hopefully to you all have

1003
01:35:00.119 --> 01:35:06.000
done these cases and found some interesting
things. I know other law enforcement or

1004
01:35:06.079 --> 01:35:10.479
police officers are interested, but like
you said, there's the macho stuff and

1005
01:35:10.840 --> 01:35:14.680
sometimes they can be a little embarrassed. And I know some of the police

1006
01:35:14.680 --> 01:35:19.199
officers I've worked with who who do
investigations anyway, they take a lot of

1007
01:35:19.680 --> 01:35:24.079
heat, They take a lot of
ridicule by their peers, and you know,

1008
01:35:24.199 --> 01:35:29.319
joking around with can't which can wear
on people. So hopefully since you

1009
01:35:29.520 --> 01:35:33.800
all are peers and putting these protocols
together, they can feel more secure and

1010
01:35:34.880 --> 01:35:39.800
working with you. Well, you
know, you have to understand that officers

1011
01:35:39.880 --> 01:35:45.479
testify in court and the sims attorney
gets the idea that you're maybe on the

1012
01:35:45.720 --> 01:35:49.439
fringe. They're going to use that
to discredit you in some way. And

1013
01:35:50.439 --> 01:35:56.760
so in our case, we have
department sanctions. Our chief ranger told us,

1014
01:35:56.840 --> 01:36:00.479
you know, go ahead and do
this stuff, and and so we

1015
01:36:00.600 --> 01:36:03.680
had the blessings of our department.
A lot of departments won't do that.

1016
01:36:04.399 --> 01:36:10.640
We're I think it may be time
for a change, and maybe these things

1017
01:36:10.640 --> 01:36:14.720
do need to be taken seriously and
really investigated. And we found some of

1018
01:36:15.000 --> 01:36:20.760
this where we found natural causes for
some of the excitings. And I'm sure

1019
01:36:20.760 --> 01:36:24.479
if you bring that up with Stan, he'll tell you about one E work

1020
01:36:24.520 --> 01:36:30.640
down where witchcraft case and and a
UFO case with LFE sided where we found

1021
01:36:30.720 --> 01:36:35.760
that they were not what they seemed
to be and they were totally natural explanations

1022
01:36:35.760 --> 01:36:39.800
for them. Okay, great,
Yeah, we will ask him about that

1023
01:36:39.920 --> 01:36:45.960
then, and that is next week
that we will have Stan. Thank you

1024
01:36:46.039 --> 01:36:49.560
so much John for being on the
show. That was a lot of fun.

1025
01:36:50.720 --> 01:36:54.800
He's a great guy and so incredible
their cases, and I know he

1026
01:36:54.840 --> 01:36:57.680
had more to talk about, so
hopefully we can get him on again.

1027
01:36:57.760 --> 01:37:02.920
So remember go to you DailyNews Dot
com for more of the news that we

1028
01:37:03.000 --> 01:37:08.359
talked about and other also the link
to the conference. And then we will

1029
01:37:08.399 --> 01:37:12.920
talk to you next week and we'll
be here with Stan Milford, John Dover's

1030
01:37:13.279 --> 01:37:19.560
partner to talk about more amazing Navajo
cases on the Navajo reservation. Talk to

1031
01:37:19.600 --> 01:37:23.399
you next week, people,