You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas.
I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now
trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other
victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway
murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with
Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher,
a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media
manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in
crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Over Murderer. I'm Bill Thomas.
Kristin Dilly, my podcast partner is a way on assignment, but you'll be
back next time on mind Over Murder with lots of enthusiasm and new stories to
tell. So it's just me today. Together with me is Lisa Ribakoff,
who when you get to know her, she's just amazing. Has an incredible
background which I'll let her tell you about. Never forget the fact. In
addition to being an accomplished professional. Lisa Ribercoff is also kind to children and
small animals. You're gonna absolutely love her. Lisa Riberkoff, Welcome to Mind
over Murder. Hi Phil, thanks for having me, and I appreciate the
accolade pertaining to small children and animals. I love them both. Lisa,
tell people about yourself and don't be modest here. Just let it fly,
Okay, Hi everyone, Thank you again Bill for having me. I am
Lisa Ribertaff. I am a New York State licensed private investigator as well as
an advanced trained polygraph examiner. I have been a licensed private investigator now since
I Gosh make me do math on demand, I would say, the past
twelve to thirteen years, and also a polygraph examiner for the same amount of
time. I currently serve on the Board of Directors of the American Polygraph Association
as the Seminar program at which means I run a ten day seminar for pretty
much our membership as well as polygraph examiners that are interested in attending our annual
seminar. And I'm also currently on the task force for the National Cold Case
Task Force, so I definitely have my hands full and I love everything that
I do because it's about victims centered advocacy and justice, whether it's through investigative
skills or using the polygraph as an investigative tool. And again, thank you
for having me here today. Well, you've been all over the news lately
because I'm seeing you commenting about the recent polygraph examination on camera no Less of
Casey Anthony's parents. You didn't work that case, but you did provide some
media commentary, but a fairly accurate representation. Yes, that's correct. I
did not directly work the Casey Anthony case at all and or administered the polygraph
exams that were given to Casey's parents. What I decided to do I was
interact with my Twitter followers and kind of educate the general public. The idea
came to me the night before and I just said, you know what,
I'm going to watch it and then I'm going to go ahead and provide my
expert commentary as to what exactly people are seeing, because just because you see
something doesn't mean you actually understand what's going on. So I paid for Hulu
plus TV seventy nine dollars for a month because my cable package didn't have a
and E as part of it, and I said, crap, how am
I going to do this? So I went online, created an account,
and I streamed it on my computer, so I had the documentary up on
my laptop and then I use a TV monitor as a computer, So I
was sitting there going back and forth live streaming and typing as the whole thing
was going on. And then that took about two hours of my life that
I'm clearly not going to get back. But the feedback I had gotten was
incredible, right because it became educational experience and people were seeing it in real
time of what exactly is going on. It was great because obviously increase my
Twitter following, so because that's really what I'm using to connect with everyone these
days. And then the other side of it was people commenting, Okay,
this was great, when's the next one happening? And my only response was
get someone to take a polygraph and have it either televised or put into a
TV show and I'll do the same thing. So until that happens, I
guess I'm not going to be sitting in front of Twitter for two hours.
So before we talk about the Long Island serial killer, Gilgo Beach four case.
Let's tell people what your Twitter handle is so they can follow you,
because obviously there's a lot to be learned from someone with your level of expertise.
So my Twitter handle is very simple. It's just my first and last
name, and I'll spell it for you because many people screw it up.
It's Lisa, Lisa, and then my last name, ri Iba COOSF.
You've also been very involved. I've seen you on a number of different platforms,
television, podcasting, live breaks from our friend Joe Jackalone and others discussing
the Long Island serial killer slash gilg Beach four. Heaven forbid, we could
come up with one name that worked case. What's your involvement there on the
Gilgo Beach four case. My involvement with the case is that I'm not an
active investigator on their task force. I am not directly involved with the investigation.
My role has turned into being a subject matter expert given that I am
a private investigator. I also live on Long Island, about twenty five minutes
away from Gilgo Beach. So because I was raised in the media towards when
this investigation started and I followed it closely, I've had just media outlets reach
out to me and say, Hey, can we have the commentary or can
we jump on a zoom or a YouTube or a podcast recording to break down
the bail documents, talk about maybe the demographics of Long Island, what's going
on with the case, things like that. So I've got my hands on
the pulse of what's going on over here, and you're a legacy. I
called your office the other day looking for you, and I ended up talking
to your dad briefly, who was unbelievably nice. Also, I'm calling saying
I need to talk to Lisa urgently and can you get a message to her,
And at the end of the call, I said, may I ask
who I'm speaking to, and he said, oh, this is her dad.
Your dad is also a private investigator and polygraph examiner. Yes, my
dad is both, And that's how I got into the business. I started
off doing private investigation work as an office assistant, where kids in high school
would have normal upbringings and do sports and clubs and activities, and I'd be
like, that's not fun. So I would leave my local high school walk
to his office was a few blocks away, stop and dunkin Donuts, next
door, get my donut and my chocolate milk, and go up to the
office and I would ind on phone calls or the surveillance agents would give in
like they're billing and their time sheets, and I would import it. That's
when I was sixteen, and I slowly moved my way up the rankings into
being an office assistant to being a surveillance coordinator where we had agents in the
fields and I'd have to contact clients and scheduling or handle investigations and then go
out and take statements regards to witnesses or accidents or whatever we had going on.
And then it turned into a surveillance operative where I would be in the
field doing surveillances. But now we're at the point where my dad and I
are kind of partners in the business. He still owns it, I still
follow the rules, and there's one day he's my dad, the next day
he's my boss. So it's definitely creating an interesting dynamic. And family dinners,
especially in public, are fantastic because people overhear the conversation and they're like,
I'm going to stop eating. I want to listen to what they're talking.
I can imagine and my mom works in the business, my brother works
in the business. So it's great to see the transition of me growing up
where even in elementary school kids were like, Oh, my dad's a doctor,
my mom's a lawyer, or my dad's a policeman, and I'm I'm
like, my dad's a spy. My dad's James Bond. I'd always had
that cool thought of like an undercover spy, never like KGB or anything.
I didn't go that far, but I was just like dad's got like gizmos
and gadgets and stuff. And so to be able to be raised in the
business, grow in the business as well as helped grow the business to where
we are now has been such a great experience and it's definitely made my dad
an eye. As close as we are now, it's not a normal upbringing,
though not by a long shot. Your life, even as a teenager,
sounds completely different from most of the rest of us. Yeah, it
definitely was very different. It made it a lot more interesting because, especially
like growing up, I had my own dating life in college and high school
or whatever it was for me, I always went into it with a radar
or like the light beam. That was like figuring out who was good to
date and who was bad to date, and then thinking, Okay, I'm
in college. Do I need to run a background check on this guy?
Oh my gosh. It definitely added some fun to the mix. I guess
you can say that it all works out in the end, and I'm very
happy now and I can only go up from there. Pretty much. We've
had a situation developed in the Colonial Parkway murders that has resulted in our listeners
coming forward with tons of questions about one of your many specialties, which is
being a polygraphic examiner. How polygraphic examinations work. I need to tee this
up a little bit with a bit of background about why so many people who
are supporters of mind over murder and those families, including mine, that were
impacted by the Colonial Parkway murders, why they're asking so many questions. It's
come out in the last two weeks since the FBI and the Virginia State Police
in the Hampton, Virginia Police Department announced that they had identified a suspect,
Alan Wade Wilmer, Senior, who is deceased. He died in twenty seventeen,
as the offender responsible for the murder of Robin Edwards and David Knobling,
who were part of the Colonial Parkway murders. They were killed in nineteen eighty
seven. And then another case which we were less familiar with because it wasn't
part of the Colonial Parkway murders, and that was the murder of a lovely
young woman named Teresa Howell in nineteen eighty nine, who was murdered by herself
after likely meeting the offender in a bar called the Zodiac Club in Hampton,
Virginia. What wasn't said was that Alan Wade Wilmer, Senior was also suspect
number one in the disappearance and likely murder of Keith Call and Cassandra Haley in
nineteen eighty eight as part of the Colonial Parkway murders. Now it's necessary to
do a little bit of a recap here. The FBI received information after the
disappearance of Keith Call and Cassandra Haley and the discovery of Keith's Toyota Celica on
the Colonial Parkway about a mile or so from where my sister Kathy Tom and
her girlfriend Rebeccaudowski had been found murdered a year and a half prior. Of
course, In the meantime, then a second couple, the aforementioned Robin Edwards
and David Nobling, had also been murdered, not on the Colonial Parkway,
but about a half an hour away at this place called the Ragged Island Wildlife
Refuge. The FBI knew they had a problem. They had two couples,
one gay, one straight, who'd been brutally murdered, and now they had
a missing couple and the car found on the Colonial Parkway just down the road
from where the first incident took place, and the FBI immediately recognized they had
a problem. They did a full court press, which the FBI is actually
quite good at. They rented out every room in a hotel just off the
Colonial Parkway, and they brought in a number of different agents and support staff.
And one of the things that emerged almost immediately was that a number of
people on the Colonial Parkway. Remember this is pre cell phone, pre internet,
so they're putting out an APB looking for information, but a number of
people, including couples, reported that this very distinctive truck was cruising the Colonial
Parkway that evening that Keith and Sandy went missing, and they described the truck.
It was dark blue or dark green riding on the doors, and a
very elaborate mechanism on the back that kind of would look like a tow truck
to my eye, but was actually the tongs that are used to pull crab
pots and oyster from the ocean. And this, of course is a big
fishing crabbing an oystering area, so they knew they were looking for this truck.
It kept coming up in reports that this truck had been seen cruising all
these little half moon pulloffs along the Colonial Parkway. The agents who are communicating
by radio no cell phones back then, are discussing this a number of different
times as more information comes in. During this time, a non agent,
the guy that maintained the radios, had heard all of the agents discussing this
very distinctive vehicle, which is truly a one of a kind, and he
radioed in a couple of days after the investigation had begun and said, guys,
I'm next to that truck on the highway. He described the truck and
they said that's the one. And now he gets the license plate, which
is obviously incredibly helpful. It was a vanity plate and it said E m
raw eat them. Raw, which is a sexually suggestive joke, I would
say, as well as an oyster reference, which is what this truck was
set up to do. Now the FBI has the license plate, so they
know where to find this guy. Four days after Keith and Sandy went missing
on the Colonial Parkway, two agents rolled up on this man's home, which
is out in Lancaster, Virginia, a couple of hours away from the site
where the disappearance had taken place. The agents were immediately concerned because they felt
this man was engaged in very suspicious behavior. He's washing out his truck and
repainting the surfaces inside the cab of the truck. And this is a real
beater work truck. This isn't a fancy truck. They are immediately suspicious that
this guy's up to something he shouldn't be. They spoke to him, interviewed
him, and then they went away and immediately got a search warrant for his
property. And they went back with a search warrant and searched. Sometimes we
hear trailer, other times small modest house. I think we're talking about the
same structure without a doubt that he shared with his brother. They knew they
were looking for certain things, and as part of that search warrant they discovered
guns, handcuffs, and extensive collection of pornography. And of course we've had
profilers on mindover murder who were just saying, these are all red flags for
the kind of person you'd be looking for in a murder series like the Colonial
Parkway murders. At some point shortly thereafter, they bring this man for a
polygraph examination, and we're told there may have been two polygraphic examinations for this
man and a second man who's not identified, So I'm not sure who that
is. Could be the brother, could be someone else. But the polygraph
examiner, who's one of the top people at the FBI, who has done
all the top spy cases. There were a bunch of spy cases that broke
back in the eighties and nineties at the Norfolk FBI Field office because of the
big military presence down there. They busted a number of spies. This same
polygraphic examiner gave the tests to those individuals. So this gentleman was very highly
regarded. But here's where we get tripped up, and this is where you
come in, Lisa. As we understand it, they gave a test or
tests to Ellen Wade Wilmer, Senior and another unnamed man, and they passed
the first examination. Now we're hearing they may have actually taken a second examination
and the results were inconclusive. Regardless, they missed these men as suspects in
the disappearance of Keith Collin Cassandra Haley, despite all of this extensive circumstantial evidence.
Further, as they continued to look at incidents on the Colonial Parkway,
couples began coming forward and they reported that they had been attacked basically by this
same gentleman driving this same truck, pulling them over, flashing his lights,
demanding driver's licenses in a highly aggressive way, and trying to get couples to
roll their windows down, and several couples actually feared for their lives. One
couple was so terrified by this guy that they tried to drive away at a
high rate of speed. He tried to block them with this same truck.
They turned around and sped out of one of these half moon pull offs at
a high rate of speed, and they were able to lose him. When
they finally got to Route seventeen, which is a nearby major road, there
are all these scary incidents involving this man. When we look back, and
I know hindsight's twenty twenty and all that, I think to myself, why
did they let this man go? But the answer to date seems to be
we gave them polygraph exam and at least he passed the first one, or
they passed the first one. So walk us through polygraphic examinations if you would.
And we're civilians here and I know this is your area of expertise.
Educate us a little bit, if you will, Lisa, on how polygraph
examinations work. So polygraph exams have been around for over one hundred years.
They started off as the analog instrument, which is typically what everyone sees in
TVs or movies where you have the contraption or the machine on the desk and
you see the paper rolling out the side, and you see the needles moving
up and down. Through the course of the years, we have now transitioned
from using analog to digital. And what digital is that it operates off a
laptop computer. The instrument is pretty much about maybe half the size of a
tissue box, is just a little bit thinner, has the different connector reports
into it, and those are the different factors that we go ahead and measure
to which the data is then transmitted onto a laptop, and what we use
to see on the pen and paper with the needles moving is now what we
observe on the actual computer. The benefits of also transitioning to digital is the
fact that we have scoring algorithms and scoring software built into the technology that we're
using pertaining to the programs that we're using to acquire the data, and by
data, the physiological reactions that the person provides in response to the question.
So the person that's taking the test is going to be attached to to pneumographs
once it's on their chest and once it's on their stomach to measure two different
sources of breathing, as some people breathe from their stomach and some people breathe
from their chest, and some people breathe from both, so we acquire breathing
respirations from that. They also are wearing a blood pressure cuff in which we're
monitoring the heart rate and blood flow with regards to the questions that are being
asked. And then they're also going to be wearing two plates on their fingers
which measure the galvanic skin reactions, which is ultimately Swickland respond to the questions
that are being asked on the exam. Because on the exam we don't just
ask relevant questions, meaning the questions about what the topic is that the reason
you're taking the exam. We're also asking you other types of questions to gear
your reactions to those questions as well in comparison to the relevant questions. How
does that tie into an investigation? For example, how are polygraph examinations and
examiners tying into working with their investigative partners. The polygraph is an investigative tool,
and that's what I've always said. It's not the be all, it's
not the end all. It is there to support your investigation and to support
the findings that you have come across. There is a misconception that the polygraph
is there to catch the guilty. I am very much a firm believer that
the polygraph is there to clear the innocent. People have to go ahead and
have a methodology to show that what they're saying is being truthful. For example,
it's the fact that an individual could be accused of murder. They want
to take the test to go ahead and show that data back commit the murder.
Same thing with regards to effect, and even if something as simple as
proving infidelity in a marriage or a relationship, to show that infidelity didn't occur.
So polygraphs can be issued when they are event based and you're testing the
situation. You can't test opinions, you can't test thoughts, you can't test
emotions just for example, that your opinions and your emotions change. Whereas polygraphs,
when you're testing events, you're testing with the idea of did something happen
or did something not happen? And that's what we're going ahead and using it
as an investigative tool to support the investigation. How reliable is polygraph testing the
exam reliability is constantly being researched by the researchers in our industry. It's been
yielding pertaining to the metadata analysis to getting a ninety to a ninety three percent
accuracy. Most people think that or they question why is it not one hundred
percent accurate? And I tell everyone bluntly, even when pepill call my office
to ask about the accuracy, is said, nothing in life is one hundred
percent except the fact that you're born, you die, and you have to
pay taxes. That's it. Because of scientific studies and different variables that come
into play, we can go ahead and we can say between like an eighty
eight to ninety three percent accuracy pertaining to the exam. So you can't stake
your life on it, that's for sure. You can't save your life,
which is why it's an investigative tool. It is subjective to the point of
it will provide you the necessary resources and information to take your investigation further pertaining
to keeping it open or keeping it closed. But there is value and there
is wait where it does get administered, such as in Rockville conviction cases where
someone can file a four to forty motion to vacate the conviction. It has
been used plenty of times to go ahead and release someone from a criminal institution,
jail or prison wherever they are for a prod that they did not commit.
So do you feel I know you weren't a polygraphic examiner back in the
eighties. That was a long time ago. I was barely born, sweetheart.
Do you feel that polygraphic examinations back then? This would have been what
nineteen eighty eight, so that's thirty thirty six, six years ago coming up
actually because the exam was a little later in the year. As we understand
it, what's your sense of the reliability of polygraphic examinations in a pre digital
environment back in the eighties. I'd say, for me, it comes down
to not necessarily the technology. It comes down more to the training of the
examiner and the systems that are in place during not only just the pre test
interview, but it was the chart collection. Because when you're dealing with technology,
you have to take a look at a couple of different things. Number
one, that analogue instrument measures less components than we do now, an increased
amount of data that we can acquire now versus then number two, the cleanliness
of the charts. And what I mean by that is when you're dealing with
the pen and paper that's only one copy. If you mess that up,
you spill coffee on it, you spill water, whatever it is, it
tears, you lose your data versus now on the digital side, it gets
saved into a computer. I can print out one hundred and fifty copies of
something if I wanted, and the data doesn't change. Also, you have
the scoring methodologies that are built into the software. Whereas previously there was no
accountability for the examiner's ruling other than that one chart that was printed and torn
off the machine given to another examiner by hand. Now again we have the
scoring where we have a computerized, independent, unbiased opportunity for a scoring decision
to be rendered by the computer. But we also have the opportunity for me
to save the charts, download them and email them to another examiner anywhere in
the world that's a qualified examiner to run their own scoring decision, and so
so he or she can help you by offering a second opinion, a third
opinion. And do you feel that wasn't really available using this earlier technology.
I don't know what the department protocols would have been, but I know where
I've run at aalog tests just for demonstration purposes, and what the charts look
like. I'd have to rip it off the instrument, fold it up a
certain way, or roll it up a certain way physically handed to someone like
I'm running the four x four in the Olympics, I'm on the track,
it looks like a baton. Where in teror comes into play of the actual
physical data and the chart because again that's the only copy that you have.
So I think it's also the transition the wear and tear, whether they used
heat, whether they used ink. That also comes into a factor. So
there are a lot of different de terminalities pertaining to not necessarily the accuracy of
the exam, but my concern is pertaining to the control of the data and
the transmission of the actual data itself from person to person or case file to
case file. You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back after
this word from our sponsors. We're back here at mindover Murder. Help us
out, by the way, Lisa, most of us our experience with live
detection or proper name polygraphic examinations is from film and TV. As you mentioned,
when I watch one of those tests being administered in a film or a
television show, the examiner marks what looks like a paper roll, sometimes with
a pen or writing implement. What is he or she doing when they are
making these marks for what you're seeing is for as an exam for demonstration and
or media entertainment purposes. What they could be doing is they could be marking
plus or minus is if they passed the question, or they could be doing
chart markings, scoring identifying possible. Maybe if someone took a deep breath,
are they sneezed or they cough, because all those body movements, even though
they're automatic, could affect the examine effect the chart readings. They just want
to notate any abnormalities that could be showing up in the chart. They could
also be going ahead and just taking notes maybe movement, body language, things
like that, or even going ahead and importing. The plus or minus could
be plus meaning they answered yes to the question, or the minus could be
no. So unless I actually see what's going on, and I can actually
see what's happening, I really can't speak to it. But those are all
just possible hypotheticals that could be taking place right. Neither one of us is
a psychologist or a psychiatrist. But yes, I have read a number of
different times and many of our listeners have asked this question. Is it true
in the literature that psychopaths or sociopaths can beat a polygraph. There's a couple
of different angles on this one. You're dealing with the psychology of an individual.
We don't know if they're a psychopath per se or have psychiatric issues until
we actually meet with the person and we do our pretest interview and we ask
about medications, medical of conditions and clear them just to make sure that they
are eligible to take the exam, and that takes place at the time of
the test. It also comes down to the training of the examiner to make
sure that they ask the right questions to clear the individual to take an exam.
So does full on the examiner training, and it also depends upon the
scope of the questions that are being asked. Can they take a test?
Yes, anyone is eligible to take an exam as long as they fit the
criteria of being eligible to take the exam. As long as they meet the
criteria to go ahead and take the test, that's not an issue at all,
meaning that they can't have illegal drugs or alcohol in their system and that
they add are adequately rested. Now, another thing I've read is that by
ingesting drugs or alcohol, it might be possible to throw off a polygmath examination.
Is that also true? Yes, people can attempt to go ahead and
do that. It is referred to as a chemical countermeasure, And by countermeasure,
I mean trying to beat the test. You're trying to counter affect the
actual physiological data that comes from your body to the exam. And I always
tell everyone you would not try and beat the test if you knew you were
going to pass, which is why during the protest interview we discuss medications.
Where an individual tells me they're not on any medications, they have no medical
conditions. But I start to run the exam and the chart collection process,
and I see that they're not reacting in the normal fashion as I'll put it,
that I can go ahead and suspect that there possibly is something chemical in
their system, to which I will then address it with them and say,
these are the chart findings, and I'll even sometimes show them in the chart.
This is what a normal chart looks like. This is what your chart
looks like. What reason or what factor do you have for this looking the
way that it does? Now? Would you be hesitant if you knew,
and obviously hindsight is twenty twenty, we're looking back at this case, which
now stretches back for thirty seven years. Would you be more hesitant or cautious
if you became aware of the fact that an individual you were giving a polygraph
examination too had taken previous polygraph examinations that were inconclusive. I've had that before,
where examinees have taken exams with other examiners and they have been founded or
deceptive or inconclusive. And for me, what I like to do is leave
that to the side. Because I wasn't there in the room. I wasn't
there for the pretest interview. I don't know the questions that were asked.
I don't know what type of format that was used, because there are different
types of polygraph formats that we use to collect data, and it also depends
upon the testable issue and the format that the examiner chooses to go with.
I like to go ahead and leave any predetermined dispositions that the examinee may have
because of another examiner to the side, and then I will go out head
and run my own exam for start to finish on the basis of what information
is provided to me at the time of the appointment. Now I know again
I'm mixing in our twenty twenty four knowledge of this suspect. We know he
is a confirmed serial killer. This is Alan Wade Wilmer, Senior. He's
been linked via DNA by the Virginia State Police. The FBI and the Hampton,
Virginia Police Department to homicides of at least three people, the couple that
I mentioned, Robin Edwards and David Nappling. Now he's been linked via DNA
to Teresa Howell, who's murdered in nineteen eighty nine, about two years after
the murder of Robin Edwards and David Noppling, and about a year after the
disappearance of Keith Call and Cassandra Haley. Would you approach that individual differently if
you knew that he was a serial killer and that was confirmed. Obviously,
we can't combine our knowledge from where we were in the eighties when this man
was an active serial killer and perhaps extending well past that point and what we
know about him now. But if you knew someone was a serial killer,
would you approach the examine a different way? I would approach it in terms
of just like anyone else sitting across the table, because I don't want to
go in and let him know what my cards are. I want to give
him an opportunity. Again, like I mentioned, the polygraph is there to
clear the innocent. I'm going to go ahead and give him the same lecture.
You know, what everyone's saying that this is what you are. I
want to go ahead and confirm that you're not, because I want to give
him the opportunity to be comfortable with me, to have a conversation and have
a dialogue, possibly give me case information that the general public doesn't have because
he slips up in a conversation. So if I can go ahead and establish
rapport with him and advocate in that meeting to what he thinks is me being
on his side and part of his defense team versus working for prosecution, I
want to go ahead and level the playing fields and get them comfortable to even
get him to consent to take the test, because if I can set that
report, get him to consent to take the test, and if he fails,
it's just further proof using the polygraph as an investigative tool, that he
is guilty and he is responsible for what he's being accused of. And if
he passes the test or it's inconclusive, that's an investigative tool and an investigative
result as well. Is that fair? So the investigative result of inconclusive means
that I can't render an opinion with regards to a polygraph. You're either passing
or failing. It's like a pregnancy test. You're either pregnant, you're not
pregnant. There's no such thing as a little bit of pregnant. There's no
such thing a whole lot. So you have to just it's just it's one
of the most common references that I can use with regards to explaining fast and
fills. Sorry, no, it's a good one. It's more so in
terms of the fact of the inconclusive being the gray area where you're not all
the way to the left, you're not all the way to the right.
You fall in between the threshold of what I need. So if I need
let's say a plus three or higher to pass, or a minus three or
lower to fail, and you come in at a zero positive want or positive
two or negative one or negative two, that's your inconclusive, your gray area.
So I can't go ahead and have enough data to support a past or
a fail. So I rule it as a no opinion, and at that
point I will go ahead and offer the examine a retest to say, listen,
I'm not going to call you a liar, and I'm not going to
call you as someone as being truthful or being honest or deceptive. I can't
say it because I don't have the data to support it. So I want
to give you the benefit of the doubt. I want you to go home,
get a good night rest, have breakfast in the morning, or make
sure you eat during the day. And let's just go ahead and try this
again. And at that point I'll speak with either the law enforcement agency or
I'll speak with the therapist or whoever i'm working with that retains my services,
and I'll say, listen, this is the situation. He's inconclusive or she's
inconclusive. Let's try to take the same questions. Let's rephrase them a little
bit so that way they're not exactly the same, but we just changed the
language, and maybe we'll be able to render an opinion that way on the
basis of language. How long does a polygraphic examination take? Roughly so it
should take minimum ninety minutes, which consist of a pretest interview, the chart
collection process, as well as a post test interview. Depending upon the investigation
of what's going on, whether it's relationship or a theft, a murder,
it all comes into different plays of how long the interview is going to be
slated for but it should take a minimum of ninety minutes. Now, I
want to be clear here, I want to read you something. I want
to be explicit here. Okay, My father, Joe Thomas, who passed
away a couple of years ago, dealt directly with the FBI agents who are
investigating my sister Kathy Thomas and Rebecca Dowski's murder in nineteen eighty six as part
of the Colonial Parkway murders. They would be the start of the Colonial Parkway
murders as we know it. So my dad stayed in constant contact with these
agents, so much so that I remember around the dinner table I was almost
thirty years old at the time of Kathy's death. Of all the family members,
I was probably the most interested in the status of the investigation. We
knew the FBI agent's by name. My dad would say in his beautiful voice,
I spoke to Today, and then a couple of years later I spoke
to Today, and he got to know these agents really well, and he
really respected them, as do I now. I never met these gentlemen,
but my dad told me the story that I told you about the polygraphic examination
in nineteen eighty eight, many years later, when we were working on this
Lover's Lane Murders television show for Oxygen, I met with Irvin Wells, who
was the former SAC for the Norfolk FBI office. And I had three to
four hours twice with IRV Wells in his living room while we were making the
television series. Because we shot it twice, Irv and I had hours while
they were setting up the lights and the cameras and doing all the television stuff.
So he and I talked about a number of things, and he went
back over this story about the polygraphic examination and how these gentlemen were dismissed,
if you will, as suspects. And Blaine Pardo and Victoria Hester, two
authors that did a great book on the Colonial Parkway murders, called a special
kind of evil. Blaine interviewed IRV Wells, who passed away in twenty twenty
two. And here's what Blaine reports in his book. He said, IRV
Wells felt the same frustration. So these guys really did look hot. He's
talking about the suspects in the Colonial Parkway disappearance of Keith Colin Cassandra Haley.
We brought in a polygrapher. He was one of the best the Bureau had
anyway, blank something was his name. I'll leave that out. He was
known as the Bureau's polygrapher extraordinaire and he was responsible for polygraphing the John Walker
case and other spy cases. And he said, these guys didn't do it.
We said you better f and be right, and we walked away from
him, meaning the suspect. I have always wondered. To defeat a polygraph,
you have to be more sophisticated than Oh. And they were watermen.
That was a big thing. They were watermen, which is what they said
they were looking for as far back as nineteen eighty six, when Kathy and
Becky were killed. They said in eighty six were looking for watermen because of
the rope, knives, handcuffs, and diesel fuel used in my sister's murder.
Back to IRV wells Now, he said they didn't do it and didn't
know about it. He's quoting the polygraphic examiner. I respected him. It's
just the way things go. You get frustrated. That's the way investigations go.
You get some people that look great, and something happens. Blaine continues
the hopes of closing. Both Carl Haley and possibly Thomas Dawski at the time
ended with the polygrapher clearing the suspect. Does this Is this how it works.
The polygrapher doesn't get the result that we're looking for, and we dismiss
the subject. The examiner is there to only render an opinion on the polygraphs
that are ascertained from the physiological data of the examine. They are then to
turn over the results to the investigative team or whoever is asking for the exam,
whichever agency it is or whatever case agent lead, etc. And from
there that's when it gets done. I have seen investigations get closed on the
basis of polygraph results. I have seen investigations get opened on the basis of
polygraph results, but it's not necessarily always on the basis of the polygraph results.
It's usually again it's part of it as an investigative tool to validate the
credibility of the individual taking the exam. There could have been other factors that
we're not aware of as to just simply closing the case on the basis of
the polygraph that we're not aware of. It could have been simply done on
the basis of the exam, and they held weight to the credibility and the
expertise and training of the examiner. I don't know who the examiner is.
I can't speak to them, their efforts, whatever they've done. Personally,
I do not like holding just the weight on the exam. I want something
also to substantiate the results, to validate again using the polygraph as a tool
in the process, because the investigation should have happened which led them to the
reason of wanting to give a polygraph exam. I'm not going to dance on
this one. I'm still disturbed given all the additional in information that came out
about this suspect, Alan Wade Wilmer Senior involving the I'm going to call them
what they were attacks on other couples who were engaged in sexual or romantic behavior.
He would come up, bang very aggressively on the window and demand driver's
license. In most stories I've heard, and I'm getting people coming out of
the woodwork again thirty something years later as a result of this new information and
they're saying, this man driving that truck engaged us in in an extremely aggressive
and frightening manner. Now these people live to tell the tale, quite frankly,
but they're clearly talking about this man in this truck. I'm just struggling
with something, which is, how in the world do you dismiss a suspect
that even IRV Wells may he Rest in peace, says we were red hot
on these guys and we let it go. Am I wrong to be baffled?
Absolutely not. And after speaking with you on the phone and a crime
con regarding the case and the investigation and where we're at and everything that you've
told me, it irritates me to be honest as an investigator as well as
an examiner, because if you have individuals that are working in an agency on
a specific case and people have suspicions, why go ahead and discredit the thoughts
of your own employees with their own findings that are actively working this case versus
the opinion of just one examiner. So, yes, there is the science,
there is the research behind the accuracy of the examination. But to me,
I've always said, you can't beat the polygraph, but you can beat
the examiner, because if the examiner is not to up to date on their
continuing education pertaining to new methodologies of scoring algorithms in addition to different types of
interview styles and techniques. We don't know what took place in the room.
There are times where I will get a phone call from an attorney's office where
or they'll go ahead and say, listen, I have a client that took
an exam with another examiner for a law enforcement agency. It's part of discovery.
I want to contract you as a third party consultant to do a quality
control. And what that means is that's taking a look at the interview which
is audio and video recorded in addition to the transcripts of whatever was done pertaining
to the audio and video, as well as the actual charts themselves. And
I just had it recently on a federal case and I actually called up the
attorney and I said, listen, the examiner that ran the test did it
by the book one hundred percent. And they were looking to me just to
see if I can find any fault anywhere, and I said, you know
what, this is the model, the ideal standard of which I would want
an exam conducted. And I work as a polygraph instructor. I travel the
country to teach at law enforcement agencies about polygraph not even just about methodology,
but also standards of practice and ethics and how to be an ethical examiner and
what do you do when you get put into awkward situations where maybe your agency
wants you to do one thing, but you know that in your heart and
in your mind this is the right thing to do. So it comes down
to also pressure given by superior sometimes when you have to render an opinion,
the examiners need to stay strong and they need to trust the data that they
have that's in front of them and render the appropriate decisions. Lisa, I
can't thank you enough for being with us on Mind over Murder today. Of
course, I'm having a blast. I'm so glad we finally got a chance
to do this because you and I have been talking about this case for about
almost two years now, and as soon as you posted on social media pertaining
to these new updates, I couldn't have reached out to you any quicker and
be like, we have to talk. I just wish Kristin was here,
and I hope Christen's having a great time listening, and we'll definitely have to
revisit this as more case developments go on. Thank you so much. Of
course, that's it. For this episode of mind Over Murder. Kristin Dilley
will be back with us next time. Thanks for listening. Mind Over Murder
is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers are
Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. Our
theme music is by Kevin McLoud. Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with
Coral Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram.
You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook,
and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas five six.
Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.