1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:07,280 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:12,080 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,039 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,280 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:24,760 murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 6 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:29,120 Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 7 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,840 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media 8 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:37,880 manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in 9 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:44,399 crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Over Murderer. I'm Bill Thomas. 10 00:00:44,719 --> 00:00:48,399 Kristin Dilly, my podcast partner is a way on assignment, but you'll be 11 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:53,039 back next time on mind Over Murder with lots of enthusiasm and new stories to 12 00:00:53,079 --> 00:00:58,159 tell. So it's just me today. Together with me is Lisa Ribakoff, 13 00:00:58,359 --> 00:01:02,240 who when you get to know her, she's just amazing. Has an incredible 14 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:04,879 background which I'll let her tell you about. Never forget the fact. In 15 00:01:04,879 --> 00:01:10,799 addition to being an accomplished professional. Lisa Ribercoff is also kind to children and 16 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:15,400 small animals. You're gonna absolutely love her. Lisa Riberkoff, Welcome to Mind 17 00:01:15,439 --> 00:01:19,560 over Murder. Hi Phil, thanks for having me, and I appreciate the 18 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:23,000 accolade pertaining to small children and animals. I love them both. Lisa, 19 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:27,640 tell people about yourself and don't be modest here. Just let it fly, 20 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:33,159 Okay, Hi everyone, Thank you again Bill for having me. I am 21 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:37,640 Lisa Ribertaff. I am a New York State licensed private investigator as well as 22 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:44,040 an advanced trained polygraph examiner. I have been a licensed private investigator now since 23 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:47,719 I Gosh make me do math on demand, I would say, the past 24 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:52,879 twelve to thirteen years, and also a polygraph examiner for the same amount of 25 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:57,159 time. I currently serve on the Board of Directors of the American Polygraph Association 26 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:02,519 as the Seminar program at which means I run a ten day seminar for pretty 27 00:02:02,599 --> 00:02:07,760 much our membership as well as polygraph examiners that are interested in attending our annual 28 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:12,560 seminar. And I'm also currently on the task force for the National Cold Case 29 00:02:12,719 --> 00:02:17,319 Task Force, so I definitely have my hands full and I love everything that 30 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:23,840 I do because it's about victims centered advocacy and justice, whether it's through investigative 31 00:02:23,879 --> 00:02:28,360 skills or using the polygraph as an investigative tool. And again, thank you 32 00:02:28,439 --> 00:02:31,120 for having me here today. Well, you've been all over the news lately 33 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:38,560 because I'm seeing you commenting about the recent polygraph examination on camera no Less of 34 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:45,080 Casey Anthony's parents. You didn't work that case, but you did provide some 35 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:51,080 media commentary, but a fairly accurate representation. Yes, that's correct. I 36 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:54,879 did not directly work the Casey Anthony case at all and or administered the polygraph 37 00:02:54,919 --> 00:03:00,439 exams that were given to Casey's parents. What I decided to do I was 38 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:05,919 interact with my Twitter followers and kind of educate the general public. The idea 39 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:07,960 came to me the night before and I just said, you know what, 40 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:13,199 I'm going to watch it and then I'm going to go ahead and provide my 41 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:16,520 expert commentary as to what exactly people are seeing, because just because you see 42 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:22,479 something doesn't mean you actually understand what's going on. So I paid for Hulu 43 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:29,080 plus TV seventy nine dollars for a month because my cable package didn't have a 44 00:03:29,199 --> 00:03:30,960 and E as part of it, and I said, crap, how am 45 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:32,719 I going to do this? So I went online, created an account, 46 00:03:32,759 --> 00:03:37,680 and I streamed it on my computer, so I had the documentary up on 47 00:03:37,719 --> 00:03:40,639 my laptop and then I use a TV monitor as a computer, So I 48 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:45,000 was sitting there going back and forth live streaming and typing as the whole thing 49 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:47,319 was going on. And then that took about two hours of my life that 50 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:52,120 I'm clearly not going to get back. But the feedback I had gotten was 51 00:03:52,159 --> 00:03:55,879 incredible, right because it became educational experience and people were seeing it in real 52 00:03:55,919 --> 00:04:00,960 time of what exactly is going on. It was great because obviously increase my 53 00:04:00,039 --> 00:04:03,560 Twitter following, so because that's really what I'm using to connect with everyone these 54 00:04:03,639 --> 00:04:08,319 days. And then the other side of it was people commenting, Okay, 55 00:04:08,439 --> 00:04:12,280 this was great, when's the next one happening? And my only response was 56 00:04:12,439 --> 00:04:15,199 get someone to take a polygraph and have it either televised or put into a 57 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:18,879 TV show and I'll do the same thing. So until that happens, I 58 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:21,519 guess I'm not going to be sitting in front of Twitter for two hours. 59 00:04:21,959 --> 00:04:28,639 So before we talk about the Long Island serial killer, Gilgo Beach four case. 60 00:04:29,079 --> 00:04:32,399 Let's tell people what your Twitter handle is so they can follow you, 61 00:04:32,519 --> 00:04:38,040 because obviously there's a lot to be learned from someone with your level of expertise. 62 00:04:38,519 --> 00:04:41,680 So my Twitter handle is very simple. It's just my first and last 63 00:04:41,759 --> 00:04:44,399 name, and I'll spell it for you because many people screw it up. 64 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:49,199 It's Lisa, Lisa, and then my last name, ri Iba COOSF. 65 00:04:49,959 --> 00:04:56,240 You've also been very involved. I've seen you on a number of different platforms, 66 00:04:56,360 --> 00:05:03,519 television, podcasting, live breaks from our friend Joe Jackalone and others discussing 67 00:05:03,759 --> 00:05:10,360 the Long Island serial killer slash gilg Beach four. Heaven forbid, we could 68 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:15,240 come up with one name that worked case. What's your involvement there on the 69 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:18,920 Gilgo Beach four case. My involvement with the case is that I'm not an 70 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:25,040 active investigator on their task force. I am not directly involved with the investigation. 71 00:05:25,759 --> 00:05:30,800 My role has turned into being a subject matter expert given that I am 72 00:05:30,879 --> 00:05:34,160 a private investigator. I also live on Long Island, about twenty five minutes 73 00:05:34,199 --> 00:05:40,800 away from Gilgo Beach. So because I was raised in the media towards when 74 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:46,360 this investigation started and I followed it closely, I've had just media outlets reach 75 00:05:46,399 --> 00:05:47,560 out to me and say, Hey, can we have the commentary or can 76 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:53,000 we jump on a zoom or a YouTube or a podcast recording to break down 77 00:05:53,399 --> 00:05:57,800 the bail documents, talk about maybe the demographics of Long Island, what's going 78 00:05:57,839 --> 00:06:00,040 on with the case, things like that. So I've got my hands on 79 00:06:00,079 --> 00:06:04,160 the pulse of what's going on over here, and you're a legacy. I 80 00:06:04,319 --> 00:06:09,000 called your office the other day looking for you, and I ended up talking 81 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:14,000 to your dad briefly, who was unbelievably nice. Also, I'm calling saying 82 00:06:14,199 --> 00:06:16,439 I need to talk to Lisa urgently and can you get a message to her, 83 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:19,279 And at the end of the call, I said, may I ask 84 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:23,240 who I'm speaking to, and he said, oh, this is her dad. 85 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:28,879 Your dad is also a private investigator and polygraph examiner. Yes, my 86 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:32,240 dad is both, And that's how I got into the business. I started 87 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:38,279 off doing private investigation work as an office assistant, where kids in high school 88 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:42,240 would have normal upbringings and do sports and clubs and activities, and I'd be 89 00:06:42,319 --> 00:06:46,519 like, that's not fun. So I would leave my local high school walk 90 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:49,040 to his office was a few blocks away, stop and dunkin Donuts, next 91 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:51,519 door, get my donut and my chocolate milk, and go up to the 92 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:56,720 office and I would ind on phone calls or the surveillance agents would give in 93 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:00,160 like they're billing and their time sheets, and I would import it. That's 94 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:02,920 when I was sixteen, and I slowly moved my way up the rankings into 95 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:09,240 being an office assistant to being a surveillance coordinator where we had agents in the 96 00:07:09,319 --> 00:07:14,160 fields and I'd have to contact clients and scheduling or handle investigations and then go 97 00:07:14,199 --> 00:07:18,040 out and take statements regards to witnesses or accidents or whatever we had going on. 98 00:07:18,639 --> 00:07:21,720 And then it turned into a surveillance operative where I would be in the 99 00:07:21,759 --> 00:07:27,560 field doing surveillances. But now we're at the point where my dad and I 100 00:07:27,639 --> 00:07:30,920 are kind of partners in the business. He still owns it, I still 101 00:07:30,959 --> 00:07:32,720 follow the rules, and there's one day he's my dad, the next day 102 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:38,560 he's my boss. So it's definitely creating an interesting dynamic. And family dinners, 103 00:07:38,639 --> 00:07:43,800 especially in public, are fantastic because people overhear the conversation and they're like, 104 00:07:43,839 --> 00:07:45,959 I'm going to stop eating. I want to listen to what they're talking. 105 00:07:46,079 --> 00:07:48,360 I can imagine and my mom works in the business, my brother works 106 00:07:48,399 --> 00:07:53,839 in the business. So it's great to see the transition of me growing up 107 00:07:53,879 --> 00:07:57,759 where even in elementary school kids were like, Oh, my dad's a doctor, 108 00:07:57,759 --> 00:08:00,160 my mom's a lawyer, or my dad's a policeman, and I'm I'm 109 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:03,279 like, my dad's a spy. My dad's James Bond. I'd always had 110 00:08:03,319 --> 00:08:07,839 that cool thought of like an undercover spy, never like KGB or anything. 111 00:08:07,879 --> 00:08:09,920 I didn't go that far, but I was just like dad's got like gizmos 112 00:08:09,959 --> 00:08:13,399 and gadgets and stuff. And so to be able to be raised in the 113 00:08:13,439 --> 00:08:18,279 business, grow in the business as well as helped grow the business to where 114 00:08:18,279 --> 00:08:22,279 we are now has been such a great experience and it's definitely made my dad 115 00:08:22,319 --> 00:08:24,720 an eye. As close as we are now, it's not a normal upbringing, 116 00:08:24,759 --> 00:08:28,680 though not by a long shot. Your life, even as a teenager, 117 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:33,320 sounds completely different from most of the rest of us. Yeah, it 118 00:08:33,399 --> 00:08:37,679 definitely was very different. It made it a lot more interesting because, especially 119 00:08:37,759 --> 00:08:41,919 like growing up, I had my own dating life in college and high school 120 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:45,279 or whatever it was for me, I always went into it with a radar 121 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:48,120 or like the light beam. That was like figuring out who was good to 122 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:50,519 date and who was bad to date, and then thinking, Okay, I'm 123 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:52,120 in college. Do I need to run a background check on this guy? 124 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:58,399 Oh my gosh. It definitely added some fun to the mix. I guess 125 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:01,759 you can say that it all works out in the end, and I'm very 126 00:09:01,799 --> 00:09:05,320 happy now and I can only go up from there. Pretty much. We've 127 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:13,159 had a situation developed in the Colonial Parkway murders that has resulted in our listeners 128 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:18,120 coming forward with tons of questions about one of your many specialties, which is 129 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:24,840 being a polygraphic examiner. How polygraphic examinations work. I need to tee this 130 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:30,200 up a little bit with a bit of background about why so many people who 131 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:35,240 are supporters of mind over murder and those families, including mine, that were 132 00:09:35,279 --> 00:09:39,120 impacted by the Colonial Parkway murders, why they're asking so many questions. It's 133 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:45,799 come out in the last two weeks since the FBI and the Virginia State Police 134 00:09:45,799 --> 00:09:50,399 in the Hampton, Virginia Police Department announced that they had identified a suspect, 135 00:09:50,519 --> 00:09:56,360 Alan Wade Wilmer, Senior, who is deceased. He died in twenty seventeen, 136 00:09:56,639 --> 00:10:01,159 as the offender responsible for the murder of Robin Edwards and David Knobling, 137 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:05,399 who were part of the Colonial Parkway murders. They were killed in nineteen eighty 138 00:10:05,399 --> 00:10:09,840 seven. And then another case which we were less familiar with because it wasn't 139 00:10:09,879 --> 00:10:13,519 part of the Colonial Parkway murders, and that was the murder of a lovely 140 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:20,120 young woman named Teresa Howell in nineteen eighty nine, who was murdered by herself 141 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:24,039 after likely meeting the offender in a bar called the Zodiac Club in Hampton, 142 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:31,600 Virginia. What wasn't said was that Alan Wade Wilmer, Senior was also suspect 143 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:37,840 number one in the disappearance and likely murder of Keith Call and Cassandra Haley in 144 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:43,360 nineteen eighty eight as part of the Colonial Parkway murders. Now it's necessary to 145 00:10:43,399 --> 00:10:48,360 do a little bit of a recap here. The FBI received information after the 146 00:10:48,399 --> 00:10:54,879 disappearance of Keith Call and Cassandra Haley and the discovery of Keith's Toyota Celica on 147 00:10:54,200 --> 00:11:00,200 the Colonial Parkway about a mile or so from where my sister Kathy Tom and 148 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:05,559 her girlfriend Rebeccaudowski had been found murdered a year and a half prior. Of 149 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:09,039 course, In the meantime, then a second couple, the aforementioned Robin Edwards 150 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:13,440 and David Nobling, had also been murdered, not on the Colonial Parkway, 151 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:16,639 but about a half an hour away at this place called the Ragged Island Wildlife 152 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:22,000 Refuge. The FBI knew they had a problem. They had two couples, 153 00:11:22,039 --> 00:11:24,399 one gay, one straight, who'd been brutally murdered, and now they had 154 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:30,879 a missing couple and the car found on the Colonial Parkway just down the road 155 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:35,320 from where the first incident took place, and the FBI immediately recognized they had 156 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:37,919 a problem. They did a full court press, which the FBI is actually 157 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:43,559 quite good at. They rented out every room in a hotel just off the 158 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:48,960 Colonial Parkway, and they brought in a number of different agents and support staff. 159 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:52,799 And one of the things that emerged almost immediately was that a number of 160 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:58,120 people on the Colonial Parkway. Remember this is pre cell phone, pre internet, 161 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:01,080 so they're putting out an APB looking for information, but a number of 162 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:07,440 people, including couples, reported that this very distinctive truck was cruising the Colonial 163 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:13,080 Parkway that evening that Keith and Sandy went missing, and they described the truck. 164 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:16,279 It was dark blue or dark green riding on the doors, and a 165 00:12:16,519 --> 00:12:22,039 very elaborate mechanism on the back that kind of would look like a tow truck 166 00:12:22,279 --> 00:12:26,879 to my eye, but was actually the tongs that are used to pull crab 167 00:12:26,919 --> 00:12:31,159 pots and oyster from the ocean. And this, of course is a big 168 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:37,759 fishing crabbing an oystering area, so they knew they were looking for this truck. 169 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:41,519 It kept coming up in reports that this truck had been seen cruising all 170 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:46,440 these little half moon pulloffs along the Colonial Parkway. The agents who are communicating 171 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:50,840 by radio no cell phones back then, are discussing this a number of different 172 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:56,320 times as more information comes in. During this time, a non agent, 173 00:12:56,559 --> 00:13:01,039 the guy that maintained the radios, had heard all of the agents discussing this 174 00:13:01,519 --> 00:13:05,720 very distinctive vehicle, which is truly a one of a kind, and he 175 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:09,200 radioed in a couple of days after the investigation had begun and said, guys, 176 00:13:09,399 --> 00:13:15,440 I'm next to that truck on the highway. He described the truck and 177 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:18,480 they said that's the one. And now he gets the license plate, which 178 00:13:18,519 --> 00:13:24,840 is obviously incredibly helpful. It was a vanity plate and it said E m 179 00:13:24,399 --> 00:13:30,000 raw eat them. Raw, which is a sexually suggestive joke, I would 180 00:13:30,039 --> 00:13:33,679 say, as well as an oyster reference, which is what this truck was 181 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:37,320 set up to do. Now the FBI has the license plate, so they 182 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:43,039 know where to find this guy. Four days after Keith and Sandy went missing 183 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:46,720 on the Colonial Parkway, two agents rolled up on this man's home, which 184 00:13:46,759 --> 00:13:52,600 is out in Lancaster, Virginia, a couple of hours away from the site 185 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:56,679 where the disappearance had taken place. The agents were immediately concerned because they felt 186 00:13:56,679 --> 00:14:01,480 this man was engaged in very suspicious behavior. He's washing out his truck and 187 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:07,600 repainting the surfaces inside the cab of the truck. And this is a real 188 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:11,879 beater work truck. This isn't a fancy truck. They are immediately suspicious that 189 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:16,240 this guy's up to something he shouldn't be. They spoke to him, interviewed 190 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:20,879 him, and then they went away and immediately got a search warrant for his 191 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:24,799 property. And they went back with a search warrant and searched. Sometimes we 192 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:31,799 hear trailer, other times small modest house. I think we're talking about the 193 00:14:31,799 --> 00:14:35,759 same structure without a doubt that he shared with his brother. They knew they 194 00:14:35,799 --> 00:14:39,279 were looking for certain things, and as part of that search warrant they discovered 195 00:14:39,399 --> 00:14:45,600 guns, handcuffs, and extensive collection of pornography. And of course we've had 196 00:14:45,679 --> 00:14:50,200 profilers on mindover murder who were just saying, these are all red flags for 197 00:14:50,559 --> 00:14:54,639 the kind of person you'd be looking for in a murder series like the Colonial 198 00:14:54,679 --> 00:15:00,440 Parkway murders. At some point shortly thereafter, they bring this man for a 199 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:05,279 polygraph examination, and we're told there may have been two polygraphic examinations for this 200 00:15:05,399 --> 00:15:09,919 man and a second man who's not identified, So I'm not sure who that 201 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:13,080 is. Could be the brother, could be someone else. But the polygraph 202 00:15:13,159 --> 00:15:16,720 examiner, who's one of the top people at the FBI, who has done 203 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:20,639 all the top spy cases. There were a bunch of spy cases that broke 204 00:15:20,759 --> 00:15:26,519 back in the eighties and nineties at the Norfolk FBI Field office because of the 205 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:31,240 big military presence down there. They busted a number of spies. This same 206 00:15:31,399 --> 00:15:35,960 polygraphic examiner gave the tests to those individuals. So this gentleman was very highly 207 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:39,639 regarded. But here's where we get tripped up, and this is where you 208 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:43,159 come in, Lisa. As we understand it, they gave a test or 209 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:50,480 tests to Ellen Wade Wilmer, Senior and another unnamed man, and they passed 210 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:56,080 the first examination. Now we're hearing they may have actually taken a second examination 211 00:15:56,240 --> 00:16:02,879 and the results were inconclusive. Regardless, they missed these men as suspects in 212 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:08,639 the disappearance of Keith Collin Cassandra Haley, despite all of this extensive circumstantial evidence. 213 00:16:10,279 --> 00:16:14,480 Further, as they continued to look at incidents on the Colonial Parkway, 214 00:16:14,639 --> 00:16:19,799 couples began coming forward and they reported that they had been attacked basically by this 215 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:25,759 same gentleman driving this same truck, pulling them over, flashing his lights, 216 00:16:26,159 --> 00:16:30,519 demanding driver's licenses in a highly aggressive way, and trying to get couples to 217 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:36,639 roll their windows down, and several couples actually feared for their lives. One 218 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:41,039 couple was so terrified by this guy that they tried to drive away at a 219 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:44,639 high rate of speed. He tried to block them with this same truck. 220 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:48,679 They turned around and sped out of one of these half moon pull offs at 221 00:16:48,679 --> 00:16:51,440 a high rate of speed, and they were able to lose him. When 222 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:56,120 they finally got to Route seventeen, which is a nearby major road, there 223 00:16:56,120 --> 00:17:00,360 are all these scary incidents involving this man. When we look back, and 224 00:17:00,399 --> 00:17:03,279 I know hindsight's twenty twenty and all that, I think to myself, why 225 00:17:03,279 --> 00:17:07,079 did they let this man go? But the answer to date seems to be 226 00:17:07,319 --> 00:17:11,160 we gave them polygraph exam and at least he passed the first one, or 227 00:17:11,279 --> 00:17:17,359 they passed the first one. So walk us through polygraphic examinations if you would. 228 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:21,119 And we're civilians here and I know this is your area of expertise. 229 00:17:21,759 --> 00:17:25,759 Educate us a little bit, if you will, Lisa, on how polygraph 230 00:17:25,839 --> 00:17:30,079 examinations work. So polygraph exams have been around for over one hundred years. 231 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:34,920 They started off as the analog instrument, which is typically what everyone sees in 232 00:17:36,039 --> 00:17:38,920 TVs or movies where you have the contraption or the machine on the desk and 233 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:41,880 you see the paper rolling out the side, and you see the needles moving 234 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:47,200 up and down. Through the course of the years, we have now transitioned 235 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:51,559 from using analog to digital. And what digital is that it operates off a 236 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:56,279 laptop computer. The instrument is pretty much about maybe half the size of a 237 00:17:56,319 --> 00:18:00,079 tissue box, is just a little bit thinner, has the different connector reports 238 00:17:59,920 --> 00:18:03,279 into it, and those are the different factors that we go ahead and measure 239 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:07,880 to which the data is then transmitted onto a laptop, and what we use 240 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:11,039 to see on the pen and paper with the needles moving is now what we 241 00:18:11,079 --> 00:18:15,839 observe on the actual computer. The benefits of also transitioning to digital is the 242 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:19,880 fact that we have scoring algorithms and scoring software built into the technology that we're 243 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:25,119 using pertaining to the programs that we're using to acquire the data, and by 244 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:29,759 data, the physiological reactions that the person provides in response to the question. 245 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:33,799 So the person that's taking the test is going to be attached to to pneumographs 246 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:37,440 once it's on their chest and once it's on their stomach to measure two different 247 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:41,240 sources of breathing, as some people breathe from their stomach and some people breathe 248 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:44,359 from their chest, and some people breathe from both, so we acquire breathing 249 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:48,279 respirations from that. They also are wearing a blood pressure cuff in which we're 250 00:18:48,319 --> 00:18:52,240 monitoring the heart rate and blood flow with regards to the questions that are being 251 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:55,759 asked. And then they're also going to be wearing two plates on their fingers 252 00:18:55,759 --> 00:19:00,279 which measure the galvanic skin reactions, which is ultimately Swickland respond to the questions 253 00:19:00,319 --> 00:19:03,680 that are being asked on the exam. Because on the exam we don't just 254 00:19:03,759 --> 00:19:08,240 ask relevant questions, meaning the questions about what the topic is that the reason 255 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:12,519 you're taking the exam. We're also asking you other types of questions to gear 256 00:19:14,039 --> 00:19:18,480 your reactions to those questions as well in comparison to the relevant questions. How 257 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:25,839 does that tie into an investigation? For example, how are polygraph examinations and 258 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:33,519 examiners tying into working with their investigative partners. The polygraph is an investigative tool, 259 00:19:33,559 --> 00:19:36,480 and that's what I've always said. It's not the be all, it's 260 00:19:36,519 --> 00:19:40,680 not the end all. It is there to support your investigation and to support 261 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:44,839 the findings that you have come across. There is a misconception that the polygraph 262 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:48,319 is there to catch the guilty. I am very much a firm believer that 263 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:51,880 the polygraph is there to clear the innocent. People have to go ahead and 264 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:56,319 have a methodology to show that what they're saying is being truthful. For example, 265 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:59,680 it's the fact that an individual could be accused of murder. They want 266 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:02,480 to take the test to go ahead and show that data back commit the murder. 267 00:20:02,759 --> 00:20:04,759 Same thing with regards to effect, and even if something as simple as 268 00:20:04,839 --> 00:20:10,160 proving infidelity in a marriage or a relationship, to show that infidelity didn't occur. 269 00:20:10,839 --> 00:20:14,680 So polygraphs can be issued when they are event based and you're testing the 270 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:18,920 situation. You can't test opinions, you can't test thoughts, you can't test 271 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:23,559 emotions just for example, that your opinions and your emotions change. Whereas polygraphs, 272 00:20:23,599 --> 00:20:27,480 when you're testing events, you're testing with the idea of did something happen 273 00:20:27,559 --> 00:20:32,319 or did something not happen? And that's what we're going ahead and using it 274 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:38,599 as an investigative tool to support the investigation. How reliable is polygraph testing the 275 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:45,359 exam reliability is constantly being researched by the researchers in our industry. It's been 276 00:20:45,519 --> 00:20:52,839 yielding pertaining to the metadata analysis to getting a ninety to a ninety three percent 277 00:20:52,839 --> 00:20:56,319 accuracy. Most people think that or they question why is it not one hundred 278 00:20:56,359 --> 00:21:00,000 percent accurate? And I tell everyone bluntly, even when pepill call my office 279 00:21:00,039 --> 00:21:03,880 to ask about the accuracy, is said, nothing in life is one hundred 280 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:07,319 percent except the fact that you're born, you die, and you have to 281 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:11,319 pay taxes. That's it. Because of scientific studies and different variables that come 282 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:15,799 into play, we can go ahead and we can say between like an eighty 283 00:21:15,799 --> 00:21:18,519 eight to ninety three percent accuracy pertaining to the exam. So you can't stake 284 00:21:18,559 --> 00:21:22,039 your life on it, that's for sure. You can't save your life, 285 00:21:22,079 --> 00:21:27,160 which is why it's an investigative tool. It is subjective to the point of 286 00:21:27,319 --> 00:21:34,319 it will provide you the necessary resources and information to take your investigation further pertaining 287 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:37,599 to keeping it open or keeping it closed. But there is value and there 288 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:42,319 is wait where it does get administered, such as in Rockville conviction cases where 289 00:21:42,319 --> 00:21:47,160 someone can file a four to forty motion to vacate the conviction. It has 290 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:51,759 been used plenty of times to go ahead and release someone from a criminal institution, 291 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:55,160 jail or prison wherever they are for a prod that they did not commit. 292 00:21:55,640 --> 00:22:00,480 So do you feel I know you weren't a polygraphic examiner back in the 293 00:22:00,559 --> 00:22:03,519 eighties. That was a long time ago. I was barely born, sweetheart. 294 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:11,839 Do you feel that polygraphic examinations back then? This would have been what 295 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:17,000 nineteen eighty eight, so that's thirty thirty six, six years ago coming up 296 00:22:17,039 --> 00:22:19,960 actually because the exam was a little later in the year. As we understand 297 00:22:21,039 --> 00:22:26,720 it, what's your sense of the reliability of polygraphic examinations in a pre digital 298 00:22:26,839 --> 00:22:30,279 environment back in the eighties. I'd say, for me, it comes down 299 00:22:30,279 --> 00:22:36,720 to not necessarily the technology. It comes down more to the training of the 300 00:22:36,799 --> 00:22:41,680 examiner and the systems that are in place during not only just the pre test 301 00:22:41,759 --> 00:22:45,960 interview, but it was the chart collection. Because when you're dealing with technology, 302 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:48,559 you have to take a look at a couple of different things. Number 303 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:55,599 one, that analogue instrument measures less components than we do now, an increased 304 00:22:55,640 --> 00:23:00,000 amount of data that we can acquire now versus then number two, the cleanliness 305 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:03,279 of the charts. And what I mean by that is when you're dealing with 306 00:23:03,319 --> 00:23:07,880 the pen and paper that's only one copy. If you mess that up, 307 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:11,000 you spill coffee on it, you spill water, whatever it is, it 308 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:15,279 tears, you lose your data versus now on the digital side, it gets 309 00:23:15,319 --> 00:23:18,720 saved into a computer. I can print out one hundred and fifty copies of 310 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:22,599 something if I wanted, and the data doesn't change. Also, you have 311 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:27,440 the scoring methodologies that are built into the software. Whereas previously there was no 312 00:23:27,519 --> 00:23:33,319 accountability for the examiner's ruling other than that one chart that was printed and torn 313 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:38,279 off the machine given to another examiner by hand. Now again we have the 314 00:23:38,319 --> 00:23:44,720 scoring where we have a computerized, independent, unbiased opportunity for a scoring decision 315 00:23:44,759 --> 00:23:48,319 to be rendered by the computer. But we also have the opportunity for me 316 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:52,680 to save the charts, download them and email them to another examiner anywhere in 317 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:56,240 the world that's a qualified examiner to run their own scoring decision, and so 318 00:23:56,240 --> 00:24:00,960 so he or she can help you by offering a second opinion, a third 319 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:06,039 opinion. And do you feel that wasn't really available using this earlier technology. 320 00:24:06,519 --> 00:24:08,880 I don't know what the department protocols would have been, but I know where 321 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:14,039 I've run at aalog tests just for demonstration purposes, and what the charts look 322 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:17,079 like. I'd have to rip it off the instrument, fold it up a 323 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:19,519 certain way, or roll it up a certain way physically handed to someone like 324 00:24:19,519 --> 00:24:22,480 I'm running the four x four in the Olympics, I'm on the track, 325 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,240 it looks like a baton. Where in teror comes into play of the actual 326 00:24:26,279 --> 00:24:30,200 physical data and the chart because again that's the only copy that you have. 327 00:24:30,839 --> 00:24:34,799 So I think it's also the transition the wear and tear, whether they used 328 00:24:34,799 --> 00:24:38,720 heat, whether they used ink. That also comes into a factor. So 329 00:24:38,839 --> 00:24:45,359 there are a lot of different de terminalities pertaining to not necessarily the accuracy of 330 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,480 the exam, but my concern is pertaining to the control of the data and 331 00:24:48,519 --> 00:24:52,759 the transmission of the actual data itself from person to person or case file to 332 00:24:52,799 --> 00:24:57,400 case file. You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back after 333 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:08,079 this word from our sponsors. We're back here at mindover Murder. Help us 334 00:25:08,079 --> 00:25:12,839 out, by the way, Lisa, most of us our experience with live 335 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:18,440 detection or proper name polygraphic examinations is from film and TV. As you mentioned, 336 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:22,200 when I watch one of those tests being administered in a film or a 337 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:30,279 television show, the examiner marks what looks like a paper roll, sometimes with 338 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:34,799 a pen or writing implement. What is he or she doing when they are 339 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:41,400 making these marks for what you're seeing is for as an exam for demonstration and 340 00:25:41,519 --> 00:25:45,759 or media entertainment purposes. What they could be doing is they could be marking 341 00:25:45,799 --> 00:25:49,079 plus or minus is if they passed the question, or they could be doing 342 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:55,279 chart markings, scoring identifying possible. Maybe if someone took a deep breath, 343 00:25:55,279 --> 00:25:57,720 are they sneezed or they cough, because all those body movements, even though 344 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:02,359 they're automatic, could affect the examine effect the chart readings. They just want 345 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:06,240 to notate any abnormalities that could be showing up in the chart. They could 346 00:26:06,279 --> 00:26:10,240 also be going ahead and just taking notes maybe movement, body language, things 347 00:26:10,279 --> 00:26:14,880 like that, or even going ahead and importing. The plus or minus could 348 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:18,119 be plus meaning they answered yes to the question, or the minus could be 349 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:22,720 no. So unless I actually see what's going on, and I can actually 350 00:26:22,759 --> 00:26:25,079 see what's happening, I really can't speak to it. But those are all 351 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:30,039 just possible hypotheticals that could be taking place right. Neither one of us is 352 00:26:30,079 --> 00:26:36,240 a psychologist or a psychiatrist. But yes, I have read a number of 353 00:26:36,319 --> 00:26:41,000 different times and many of our listeners have asked this question. Is it true 354 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:49,319 in the literature that psychopaths or sociopaths can beat a polygraph. There's a couple 355 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:56,039 of different angles on this one. You're dealing with the psychology of an individual. 356 00:26:56,119 --> 00:27:02,720 We don't know if they're a psychopath per se or have psychiatric issues until 357 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,039 we actually meet with the person and we do our pretest interview and we ask 358 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:08,599 about medications, medical of conditions and clear them just to make sure that they 359 00:27:08,599 --> 00:27:11,599 are eligible to take the exam, and that takes place at the time of 360 00:27:11,599 --> 00:27:15,240 the test. It also comes down to the training of the examiner to make 361 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:19,079 sure that they ask the right questions to clear the individual to take an exam. 362 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:25,160 So does full on the examiner training, and it also depends upon the 363 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:29,559 scope of the questions that are being asked. Can they take a test? 364 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:33,559 Yes, anyone is eligible to take an exam as long as they fit the 365 00:27:33,559 --> 00:27:37,599 criteria of being eligible to take the exam. As long as they meet the 366 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:41,559 criteria to go ahead and take the test, that's not an issue at all, 367 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:45,519 meaning that they can't have illegal drugs or alcohol in their system and that 368 00:27:45,519 --> 00:27:49,240 they add are adequately rested. Now, another thing I've read is that by 369 00:27:49,519 --> 00:27:56,759 ingesting drugs or alcohol, it might be possible to throw off a polygmath examination. 370 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:00,559 Is that also true? Yes, people can attempt to go ahead and 371 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:04,799 do that. It is referred to as a chemical countermeasure, And by countermeasure, 372 00:28:04,839 --> 00:28:08,759 I mean trying to beat the test. You're trying to counter affect the 373 00:28:08,799 --> 00:28:14,440 actual physiological data that comes from your body to the exam. And I always 374 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,240 tell everyone you would not try and beat the test if you knew you were 375 00:28:17,279 --> 00:28:22,279 going to pass, which is why during the protest interview we discuss medications. 376 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,519 Where an individual tells me they're not on any medications, they have no medical 377 00:28:26,519 --> 00:28:30,680 conditions. But I start to run the exam and the chart collection process, 378 00:28:30,759 --> 00:28:34,279 and I see that they're not reacting in the normal fashion as I'll put it, 379 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:40,000 that I can go ahead and suspect that there possibly is something chemical in 380 00:28:40,039 --> 00:28:42,240 their system, to which I will then address it with them and say, 381 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:45,680 these are the chart findings, and I'll even sometimes show them in the chart. 382 00:28:47,119 --> 00:28:48,400 This is what a normal chart looks like. This is what your chart 383 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:52,039 looks like. What reason or what factor do you have for this looking the 384 00:28:52,039 --> 00:28:56,160 way that it does? Now? Would you be hesitant if you knew, 385 00:28:56,359 --> 00:29:02,400 and obviously hindsight is twenty twenty, we're looking back at this case, which 386 00:29:02,519 --> 00:29:07,880 now stretches back for thirty seven years. Would you be more hesitant or cautious 387 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:12,720 if you became aware of the fact that an individual you were giving a polygraph 388 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:22,839 examination too had taken previous polygraph examinations that were inconclusive. I've had that before, 389 00:29:22,559 --> 00:29:26,920 where examinees have taken exams with other examiners and they have been founded or 390 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:32,519 deceptive or inconclusive. And for me, what I like to do is leave 391 00:29:32,599 --> 00:29:36,200 that to the side. Because I wasn't there in the room. I wasn't 392 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,359 there for the pretest interview. I don't know the questions that were asked. 393 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:42,119 I don't know what type of format that was used, because there are different 394 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:47,920 types of polygraph formats that we use to collect data, and it also depends 395 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:51,440 upon the testable issue and the format that the examiner chooses to go with. 396 00:29:52,079 --> 00:29:56,759 I like to go ahead and leave any predetermined dispositions that the examinee may have 397 00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:00,200 because of another examiner to the side, and then I will go out head 398 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,240 and run my own exam for start to finish on the basis of what information 399 00:30:03,319 --> 00:30:08,039 is provided to me at the time of the appointment. Now I know again 400 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:15,519 I'm mixing in our twenty twenty four knowledge of this suspect. We know he 401 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:22,160 is a confirmed serial killer. This is Alan Wade Wilmer, Senior. He's 402 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:27,200 been linked via DNA by the Virginia State Police. The FBI and the Hampton, 403 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:33,359 Virginia Police Department to homicides of at least three people, the couple that 404 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:37,319 I mentioned, Robin Edwards and David Nappling. Now he's been linked via DNA 405 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:44,160 to Teresa Howell, who's murdered in nineteen eighty nine, about two years after 406 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:48,079 the murder of Robin Edwards and David Noppling, and about a year after the 407 00:30:48,119 --> 00:30:56,839 disappearance of Keith Call and Cassandra Haley. Would you approach that individual differently if 408 00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:02,759 you knew that he was a serial killer and that was confirmed. Obviously, 409 00:31:02,799 --> 00:31:08,519 we can't combine our knowledge from where we were in the eighties when this man 410 00:31:08,559 --> 00:31:12,680 was an active serial killer and perhaps extending well past that point and what we 411 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:17,599 know about him now. But if you knew someone was a serial killer, 412 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:22,279 would you approach the examine a different way? I would approach it in terms 413 00:31:22,279 --> 00:31:26,720 of just like anyone else sitting across the table, because I don't want to 414 00:31:26,759 --> 00:31:30,440 go in and let him know what my cards are. I want to give 415 00:31:30,519 --> 00:31:33,119 him an opportunity. Again, like I mentioned, the polygraph is there to 416 00:31:33,119 --> 00:31:36,440 clear the innocent. I'm going to go ahead and give him the same lecture. 417 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:40,119 You know, what everyone's saying that this is what you are. I 418 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:41,799 want to go ahead and confirm that you're not, because I want to give 419 00:31:41,839 --> 00:31:45,920 him the opportunity to be comfortable with me, to have a conversation and have 420 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:49,440 a dialogue, possibly give me case information that the general public doesn't have because 421 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:52,880 he slips up in a conversation. So if I can go ahead and establish 422 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:57,039 rapport with him and advocate in that meeting to what he thinks is me being 423 00:31:57,079 --> 00:32:01,400 on his side and part of his defense team versus working for prosecution, I 424 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:05,359 want to go ahead and level the playing fields and get them comfortable to even 425 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:07,480 get him to consent to take the test, because if I can set that 426 00:32:07,559 --> 00:32:10,920 report, get him to consent to take the test, and if he fails, 427 00:32:12,039 --> 00:32:15,839 it's just further proof using the polygraph as an investigative tool, that he 428 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:20,359 is guilty and he is responsible for what he's being accused of. And if 429 00:32:20,359 --> 00:32:25,920 he passes the test or it's inconclusive, that's an investigative tool and an investigative 430 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:31,319 result as well. Is that fair? So the investigative result of inconclusive means 431 00:32:31,319 --> 00:32:36,640 that I can't render an opinion with regards to a polygraph. You're either passing 432 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:38,559 or failing. It's like a pregnancy test. You're either pregnant, you're not 433 00:32:38,599 --> 00:32:40,640 pregnant. There's no such thing as a little bit of pregnant. There's no 434 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:45,519 such thing a whole lot. So you have to just it's just it's one 435 00:32:45,559 --> 00:32:49,200 of the most common references that I can use with regards to explaining fast and 436 00:32:49,279 --> 00:32:53,359 fills. Sorry, no, it's a good one. It's more so in 437 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:58,680 terms of the fact of the inconclusive being the gray area where you're not all 438 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:00,440 the way to the left, you're not all the way to the right. 439 00:33:00,759 --> 00:33:05,200 You fall in between the threshold of what I need. So if I need 440 00:33:05,279 --> 00:33:08,240 let's say a plus three or higher to pass, or a minus three or 441 00:33:08,279 --> 00:33:13,759 lower to fail, and you come in at a zero positive want or positive 442 00:33:13,759 --> 00:33:16,480 two or negative one or negative two, that's your inconclusive, your gray area. 443 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:21,640 So I can't go ahead and have enough data to support a past or 444 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:23,519 a fail. So I rule it as a no opinion, and at that 445 00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:28,240 point I will go ahead and offer the examine a retest to say, listen, 446 00:33:28,759 --> 00:33:30,759 I'm not going to call you a liar, and I'm not going to 447 00:33:30,799 --> 00:33:34,039 call you as someone as being truthful or being honest or deceptive. I can't 448 00:33:34,079 --> 00:33:36,799 say it because I don't have the data to support it. So I want 449 00:33:36,799 --> 00:33:38,079 to give you the benefit of the doubt. I want you to go home, 450 00:33:38,119 --> 00:33:40,799 get a good night rest, have breakfast in the morning, or make 451 00:33:40,799 --> 00:33:44,920 sure you eat during the day. And let's just go ahead and try this 452 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,839 again. And at that point I'll speak with either the law enforcement agency or 453 00:33:47,839 --> 00:33:52,440 I'll speak with the therapist or whoever i'm working with that retains my services, 454 00:33:52,759 --> 00:33:57,119 and I'll say, listen, this is the situation. He's inconclusive or she's 455 00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:00,759 inconclusive. Let's try to take the same questions. Let's rephrase them a little 456 00:34:00,799 --> 00:34:05,160 bit so that way they're not exactly the same, but we just changed the 457 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:07,920 language, and maybe we'll be able to render an opinion that way on the 458 00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:14,239 basis of language. How long does a polygraphic examination take? Roughly so it 459 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:17,320 should take minimum ninety minutes, which consist of a pretest interview, the chart 460 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:22,320 collection process, as well as a post test interview. Depending upon the investigation 461 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:27,159 of what's going on, whether it's relationship or a theft, a murder, 462 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:30,679 it all comes into different plays of how long the interview is going to be 463 00:34:30,679 --> 00:34:34,880 slated for but it should take a minimum of ninety minutes. Now, I 464 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:38,079 want to be clear here, I want to read you something. I want 465 00:34:38,079 --> 00:34:44,719 to be explicit here. Okay, My father, Joe Thomas, who passed 466 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:49,440 away a couple of years ago, dealt directly with the FBI agents who are 467 00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:53,840 investigating my sister Kathy Thomas and Rebecca Dowski's murder in nineteen eighty six as part 468 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:59,039 of the Colonial Parkway murders. They would be the start of the Colonial Parkway 469 00:34:59,119 --> 00:35:02,880 murders as we know it. So my dad stayed in constant contact with these 470 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:07,559 agents, so much so that I remember around the dinner table I was almost 471 00:35:07,599 --> 00:35:13,480 thirty years old at the time of Kathy's death. Of all the family members, 472 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:19,599 I was probably the most interested in the status of the investigation. We 473 00:35:19,679 --> 00:35:23,599 knew the FBI agent's by name. My dad would say in his beautiful voice, 474 00:35:24,599 --> 00:35:30,960 I spoke to Today, and then a couple of years later I spoke 475 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:34,000 to Today, and he got to know these agents really well, and he 476 00:35:34,159 --> 00:35:37,320 really respected them, as do I now. I never met these gentlemen, 477 00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:43,400 but my dad told me the story that I told you about the polygraphic examination 478 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:47,599 in nineteen eighty eight, many years later, when we were working on this 479 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:54,079 Lover's Lane Murders television show for Oxygen, I met with Irvin Wells, who 480 00:35:54,159 --> 00:36:00,400 was the former SAC for the Norfolk FBI office. And I had three to 481 00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:05,559 four hours twice with IRV Wells in his living room while we were making the 482 00:36:05,639 --> 00:36:09,000 television series. Because we shot it twice, Irv and I had hours while 483 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:13,559 they were setting up the lights and the cameras and doing all the television stuff. 484 00:36:14,039 --> 00:36:15,400 So he and I talked about a number of things, and he went 485 00:36:15,519 --> 00:36:22,800 back over this story about the polygraphic examination and how these gentlemen were dismissed, 486 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:29,239 if you will, as suspects. And Blaine Pardo and Victoria Hester, two 487 00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:32,440 authors that did a great book on the Colonial Parkway murders, called a special 488 00:36:32,519 --> 00:36:38,280 kind of evil. Blaine interviewed IRV Wells, who passed away in twenty twenty 489 00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:44,360 two. And here's what Blaine reports in his book. He said, IRV 490 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:50,280 Wells felt the same frustration. So these guys really did look hot. He's 491 00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:54,760 talking about the suspects in the Colonial Parkway disappearance of Keith Colin Cassandra Haley. 492 00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:59,840 We brought in a polygrapher. He was one of the best the Bureau had 493 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:04,840 anyway, blank something was his name. I'll leave that out. He was 494 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:10,880 known as the Bureau's polygrapher extraordinaire and he was responsible for polygraphing the John Walker 495 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:16,920 case and other spy cases. And he said, these guys didn't do it. 496 00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:22,800 We said you better f and be right, and we walked away from 497 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:29,000 him, meaning the suspect. I have always wondered. To defeat a polygraph, 498 00:37:29,519 --> 00:37:32,840 you have to be more sophisticated than Oh. And they were watermen. 499 00:37:34,559 --> 00:37:37,320 That was a big thing. They were watermen, which is what they said 500 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:42,519 they were looking for as far back as nineteen eighty six, when Kathy and 501 00:37:42,559 --> 00:37:47,320 Becky were killed. They said in eighty six were looking for watermen because of 502 00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:53,000 the rope, knives, handcuffs, and diesel fuel used in my sister's murder. 503 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:58,239 Back to IRV wells Now, he said they didn't do it and didn't 504 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:02,320 know about it. He's quoting the polygraphic examiner. I respected him. It's 505 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:07,199 just the way things go. You get frustrated. That's the way investigations go. 506 00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:12,039 You get some people that look great, and something happens. Blaine continues 507 00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:16,079 the hopes of closing. Both Carl Haley and possibly Thomas Dawski at the time 508 00:38:16,519 --> 00:38:23,840 ended with the polygrapher clearing the suspect. Does this Is this how it works. 509 00:38:24,199 --> 00:38:29,599 The polygrapher doesn't get the result that we're looking for, and we dismiss 510 00:38:29,679 --> 00:38:37,079 the subject. The examiner is there to only render an opinion on the polygraphs 511 00:38:37,079 --> 00:38:42,960 that are ascertained from the physiological data of the examine. They are then to 512 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:46,760 turn over the results to the investigative team or whoever is asking for the exam, 513 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:52,360 whichever agency it is or whatever case agent lead, etc. And from 514 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:57,320 there that's when it gets done. I have seen investigations get closed on the 515 00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:00,320 basis of polygraph results. I have seen investigations get opened on the basis of 516 00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:07,360 polygraph results, but it's not necessarily always on the basis of the polygraph results. 517 00:39:07,519 --> 00:39:12,039 It's usually again it's part of it as an investigative tool to validate the 518 00:39:12,079 --> 00:39:16,679 credibility of the individual taking the exam. There could have been other factors that 519 00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:21,719 we're not aware of as to just simply closing the case on the basis of 520 00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:24,119 the polygraph that we're not aware of. It could have been simply done on 521 00:39:24,199 --> 00:39:28,360 the basis of the exam, and they held weight to the credibility and the 522 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:31,239 expertise and training of the examiner. I don't know who the examiner is. 523 00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:37,360 I can't speak to them, their efforts, whatever they've done. Personally, 524 00:39:37,599 --> 00:39:39,840 I do not like holding just the weight on the exam. I want something 525 00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:45,480 also to substantiate the results, to validate again using the polygraph as a tool 526 00:39:45,599 --> 00:39:51,400 in the process, because the investigation should have happened which led them to the 527 00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:55,360 reason of wanting to give a polygraph exam. I'm not going to dance on 528 00:39:55,400 --> 00:40:00,400 this one. I'm still disturbed given all the additional in information that came out 529 00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:07,199 about this suspect, Alan Wade Wilmer Senior involving the I'm going to call them 530 00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:13,360 what they were attacks on other couples who were engaged in sexual or romantic behavior. 531 00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:17,239 He would come up, bang very aggressively on the window and demand driver's 532 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:22,920 license. In most stories I've heard, and I'm getting people coming out of 533 00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:28,800 the woodwork again thirty something years later as a result of this new information and 534 00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:35,679 they're saying, this man driving that truck engaged us in in an extremely aggressive 535 00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:38,280 and frightening manner. Now these people live to tell the tale, quite frankly, 536 00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:45,880 but they're clearly talking about this man in this truck. I'm just struggling 537 00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:49,760 with something, which is, how in the world do you dismiss a suspect 538 00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:53,880 that even IRV Wells may he Rest in peace, says we were red hot 539 00:40:54,199 --> 00:40:59,880 on these guys and we let it go. Am I wrong to be baffled? 540 00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:05,239 Absolutely not. And after speaking with you on the phone and a crime 541 00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:08,320 con regarding the case and the investigation and where we're at and everything that you've 542 00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:13,079 told me, it irritates me to be honest as an investigator as well as 543 00:41:13,079 --> 00:41:16,159 an examiner, because if you have individuals that are working in an agency on 544 00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:22,280 a specific case and people have suspicions, why go ahead and discredit the thoughts 545 00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:28,840 of your own employees with their own findings that are actively working this case versus 546 00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:34,119 the opinion of just one examiner. So, yes, there is the science, 547 00:41:34,159 --> 00:41:37,519 there is the research behind the accuracy of the examination. But to me, 548 00:41:37,679 --> 00:41:40,000 I've always said, you can't beat the polygraph, but you can beat 549 00:41:40,039 --> 00:41:44,360 the examiner, because if the examiner is not to up to date on their 550 00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:51,000 continuing education pertaining to new methodologies of scoring algorithms in addition to different types of 551 00:41:51,039 --> 00:41:54,360 interview styles and techniques. We don't know what took place in the room. 552 00:41:54,800 --> 00:42:00,000 There are times where I will get a phone call from an attorney's office where 553 00:42:00,079 --> 00:42:01,760 or they'll go ahead and say, listen, I have a client that took 554 00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:07,159 an exam with another examiner for a law enforcement agency. It's part of discovery. 555 00:42:07,679 --> 00:42:10,239 I want to contract you as a third party consultant to do a quality 556 00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:14,880 control. And what that means is that's taking a look at the interview which 557 00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:19,880 is audio and video recorded in addition to the transcripts of whatever was done pertaining 558 00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:23,039 to the audio and video, as well as the actual charts themselves. And 559 00:42:23,079 --> 00:42:27,719 I just had it recently on a federal case and I actually called up the 560 00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:30,880 attorney and I said, listen, the examiner that ran the test did it 561 00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:34,000 by the book one hundred percent. And they were looking to me just to 562 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:36,480 see if I can find any fault anywhere, and I said, you know 563 00:42:36,519 --> 00:42:40,119 what, this is the model, the ideal standard of which I would want 564 00:42:40,159 --> 00:42:45,079 an exam conducted. And I work as a polygraph instructor. I travel the 565 00:42:45,079 --> 00:42:50,280 country to teach at law enforcement agencies about polygraph not even just about methodology, 566 00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:53,000 but also standards of practice and ethics and how to be an ethical examiner and 567 00:42:53,039 --> 00:42:57,960 what do you do when you get put into awkward situations where maybe your agency 568 00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:00,880 wants you to do one thing, but you know that in your heart and 569 00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:04,000 in your mind this is the right thing to do. So it comes down 570 00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:07,679 to also pressure given by superior sometimes when you have to render an opinion, 571 00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:12,400 the examiners need to stay strong and they need to trust the data that they 572 00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:15,519 have that's in front of them and render the appropriate decisions. Lisa, I 573 00:43:15,599 --> 00:43:21,320 can't thank you enough for being with us on Mind over Murder today. Of 574 00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:23,320 course, I'm having a blast. I'm so glad we finally got a chance 575 00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:27,199 to do this because you and I have been talking about this case for about 576 00:43:27,199 --> 00:43:30,840 almost two years now, and as soon as you posted on social media pertaining 577 00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:35,599 to these new updates, I couldn't have reached out to you any quicker and 578 00:43:35,679 --> 00:43:37,360 be like, we have to talk. I just wish Kristin was here, 579 00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:42,280 and I hope Christen's having a great time listening, and we'll definitely have to 580 00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:46,519 revisit this as more case developments go on. Thank you so much. Of 581 00:43:46,559 --> 00:43:51,559 course, that's it. For this episode of mind Over Murder. Kristin Dilley 582 00:43:51,639 --> 00:44:05,559 will be back with us next time. Thanks for listening. Mind Over Murder 583 00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:10,719 is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers are 584 00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:16,119 Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. Our 585 00:44:16,159 --> 00:44:22,199 theme music is by Kevin McLoud. Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with 586 00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:27,400 Coral Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 587 00:44:27,599 --> 00:44:30,519 You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, 588 00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:36,519 and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas five six. 589 00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:39,119 Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.