Look Host Radio. Welcome to Open Minds Radio with Alejandro Roja. Open Minds
Radio is the UFO news authority, presenting evidence and the latest news regarding the
UFO phenomenon. Here're your host, Alejandro Roja. Hello and welcome to Open
Minds Radio. It is wonderful to be here with you all again today.
We have a great show today. Our guest is doctor John Alexander, a
retired Army colonel, a leading advocate for the development of non lethal weapons.
But more importantly, he during his time in the Army, dabbled into paranormal
especially and including UFOs. Now, he has a very conservative perspective regarding the
UFOs and the government. However, he does believe that UFOs are a real
phenomena and an important one. So we're going to talk to him all about
his controversial views on the subject, what he found in his investigations. He
actually compiled a group to investigate UFOs that were members of the Department of Defense,
the intelligence community, they were in the aerospace industry. So he's done
a lot of work on this and he has actually just released a book called
UFOs Myths, Conspiracies and Realities, and it's kind of cool. He as
a forward by Jacques Vallet, who we've had on the show before, commentary
by the very popular author Tom Clancy, and then an introduction by Bert ritt
Hand. So all very prestigious people that have written about his book, and
I think they kind of because of his point of views, really they kind
of lend credence to the whole. Perhaps they also feel there is more to
this phenomena than they lead on. So of course, as we know,
especially with Tom Clancy, very conservative defense writer, kind of a hawkish type
of character. And then Bert Rattan who is in charge of where it heads
up the Virgin Galactic Space program, so he's going to be taking people into
space very soon. Pretty cool stuff, pretty pretty pretty cool. So this
is going to be a neat show. I'm really excited to talk to him
about all of the things that he's been involved in and his new book.
He just spoke at the UFO Congress recently, and then he had a debate
with Stanton Friedman that was quote unquote moderated by Daniel Sheehan. But as he
will share with us, the moderator's supposed to be unbiased, but this moderator
was a little more involved than moderators typically are, and certainly had his own
point of views that he shared, and we'll talk to doctor Alexander all about
that. So that's really exciting. I'm excited to talk to him. This
is going to be a lot of fun. Also, I wanted to talk
to a guy who really follows up on UFO news. He's a really neat
fellow and he's going to be on the show in just a minute here because
he works for Open Minds and Open Minds you'll notice we follow the UFO he
headlines on a regular basis, and there's a lot of news going on that
I'm really excited to talk about. Some of it. We talked Antonio and
I talked to when we're on Coast to Coast a couple of weeks ago,
not even just a week from yesterday. But there's more news that has happened
on the subject we were talking about on Coast to Coast, and if Jason,
our news correspondent, doesn't talked about those, I'll bring those up and
we'll talk about those. But ladies and gentlemen, let me welcome the one
and the only Open Mind Radio's very own news correspondent, Jason McClelland Jason.
Hello, how are you. I'm great, Alejandro, how are you,
my friend? Not too bad? Very good to be here. And greetings
to you all out there, all to our wonderful listeners around this wonderful planet
of ours. This is your Open Minds News Brief for Monday, April fourth,
twenty eleven. It's April already. This year is going quickly. I
like that though. We'll start off with a story that was big for the
weekend. Multiple UFOs appeared in the sky above South Chicago on Saturday night.
A woman among the witnesses observed the line of mysterious lights in the sky,
and she recorded the event with her cell phone camera. The sighting left witnesses
scratching their heads, and it was reported on by various media outlets. But
according to AOL news, Renee Hutchinson, founder and president of a foundation that
fights for strict child abuse laws, claims the strange lights were simply Chinese lanterns.
Quote released in the air in memory of abuse victims end quote. While
Chicago's ABC affiliate wls TV reported witness descriptions of the lights as orange colored,
blinking lights. Their appearance in the video is quite white test conducted by Open
Minds. That's Alejandro, and let's see who else do we have. We
had Maureen and myself fun tests we did, and a person who wants to
remain anonymous. Correct, We did our own test with Chinese lanterns and we
found out and we did this with multiple colored Chinese lanterns and found out whether
it's a white Chinese lantern or a green Chinese lantern. All you really see
from the ground is an orange flickering light. That's what they look like in
the sky. So it's interesting. I mean, the orange flickering color would
be consistent with what WLS TV how they said the description for witnesses was,
but the video doesn't seem to fit with the description they gave. Oh so
you're you don't think possibly these were the balloons? No, I think a
lot of a lot of videos we see are quite identifiably Chinese lanterns. But
the video, and it looked like a good video too. I mean,
there's lights in the sky appear differently depending on what kind of camera you have,
what kind of you know, device you used to capture the video with.
But this seemed to be very bright white lights, whereas every we took
video of ours with multiple cameras, different types of cameras, different qualities,
and in all of them orange flickering lights. That's true. Now, it
could be a problem with the camera though, something with the wipeout. Absolutely,
it could certainly be that because I looked at the I didn't look at
the video closely. Honestly, by the time I had looked at this story,
they had already talked about the balloons, and you know how that had
happened at the same time, so I already had the perspective okase clothes honestly
when I looked at him, and the characteristics were similar, at least in
the very little that I saw to the lantern. So I just didn't watch
much or pay much attention. So I'll have to look at take a closer
look. The video is interesting to watch. It most likely was some sort
of balloon, some illuminated balloon or lantern sky lantern. But the characteristics,
you know, with the color, struck me as odd. Yeah, right
in the video. And I know what you're saying, because the lights did
not look colored right. In fact, the video didn't look like it had
color. That could also be true out that could also be true and could
explain it. But again, just because somebody comes forward and says, oh,
I was releasing lanterns at that time, there wasn't enough information in the
story to seal the deal for me. Because we've seen that in the past,
especially a lot of the sightings in Florida, where someone will come forward
and say, oh, yeah, we were releasing balloons at a party,
But that party was many miles away and didn't necessarily happen at the same time
or time that the lanterns would have been in the skies. We saw.
Those things don't stay in the air that long. And from our experience,
I mean, I live on the far east side of the little town of
Maricopa. If I had seen the UFO to the east and then someone said
they have launched balloons at the same time on the west side of town,
there's no way those balloons on the west side of town would have been what
I saw. Not a chance. So I mean, because even in a
small town like what I have, from our experience, the balloons don't float
that far. Correct, People throughout my neighborhood probably saw maybe in a few
surrounding neighborhoods, but that's about it. They don't go higher that farm and
that like, like we pointed out before, there are various types of balloons,
various types of lanterns, So it's certainly possible, but from our experience,
from what we've seen personally, not the case. Yep. So with
an interesting video, you should watch it again. I will. The Daily
Mail recently quoted NASA Inspector General Paul Martin is stating that NASA is quote vulnerable
to computer incidents that could have a severe and catastrophic effect on agency assets,
operation and personnel end quote. Martin went on to specifically identify the vulnerable targets
six computer servers associated with IT assets that control spacecraft and contain critical data.
It has vulnerabilities that would allow remote attackers to take control of or render them
unavailable. It's kind of weird that this guy would do his analysis but then
release a public statement saying here's where our problems are. Open door, come
get us. Kind of scary with these itic. Security issues aren't anything new
for NASA, as multiple hackers have successfully penetrated the agency's network in the past.
Britain Gary McKinnon successfully hacked into several NASA and US military computers during two
thousand and one and two thousand and two in search of information relating to UFOs.
McKinnon's work has been called the biggest military computer hack of all time,
and he is currently fighting extradition to the US. The network penetrations by McKinnon
and other hackers seems to have not been important enough to NASSA to merit improve
network security. Yeah. Well, I'm sure if you were brave and or
dumb enough, I don't know which would be most appropriate to try to hack
into NASA's computer network. It wouldn't be that difficult if you were persistent like
McKinnon was. He wasn't doing anything that sophisticated, and he was able to
get in. And it's probably the case today, which is unfortunate and a
little concerning, but which is probably true of some military Harry computers. But
unfortunately, you know, even though it might be very simple to do,
I certainly would not advise anybody to do it, who know, because you
can be like Gary and be facing the rest of your life in prison.
Work guy's been fighting for ten years now, pretty much. But it is
odd because I know we discussed this as having been brought up in the media
relating to the McKinnon case about how Gary's hacks brought to light all of these
flaws with their security, NASA specifically, so they supposedly were taking measures to
improve their security ten years ago, but apparently those measures weren't enough, Yeah,
or they just didn't bother Yeah, surprising. I talked to rit guy
here and he talked about how back when Gary McKinnon was doing his hacking,
security was not as big of an issue and it was much more lax,
and especially for the government. I know, it's very difficult. For instance,
my parents work for the National Park Service. They had to have so
many logins and everything to get into their computers. Everything was monitored. They
couldn't watch look at certain websites and things like that, and it's extremely restrictive,
more so than in the public sector, you know, where I was
working, which we still had security, but so I was surprised, you
know, it would be so easy. But I think what happens when you're
so constrictive, then you'll have a group of employees who are going to look
for ways to get around that. And so they probably have some computers that
are totally unrestricted because they don't want to go through the hassle of everyday stuff.
And then it makes it easier and bubba, and then here and there,
and then you have people you contract with who aren't adhering to the standards
of security. And here you have a people. Well they need to to
get their act together. Yeah, say better. It's almost like they don't
care though I don't know. Four people started accessing their satellites and dropping them
on helpless toavilagor danger. Yeah, I don't want a satellite fallen in my
head. Here's an update from a story we had we talked about last week
about mysterious lights that were in the sky above Lafayette, Colorado. These lights
were captured on video by one witness. The UFO video gained widespread attention and
continues to receive attention from some media outlets around the world. Some, however,
believed the strange lights were nothing more than road flares attached to balloons.
Life Science is Bad Science columnist Benjamin Redford Radford published an article last week presenting
the road flare theory to explain the Colorado lights. In his article, Radford
bases his theory on comments made by Leroy Vanderbt, the witness who videotaped the
lights. Vandervet said the lights moved silently through the sky. From this,
Radford concluded that quote the lights were likely floating, not moving under their own
power. In quote. This led him to his suggestion of road flares tied
to balloons, Supporting his theory. Further, Radford mentions the descriptions provided by
Vandervett of the disappearance disappearance of the lights. After staying steady, they faded
away. Radford points out that this fading away is exactly like dying road flares
how they would behave if they were tied to balloons. But, as Radford
points out, of course it's also possible that aliens visited Colorado last week in
a spacecraft that just happened to look like road flares tied to balloons. The
disappearance of lights by gradual fading away doesn't prove that flares were tied to balloons
in this case, even though hoaxes involving balloons and road flares have been proven
in the past. While further evidence to support this theory may surface in the
future, for now, the lights still remain unidentified. Yeah that article in
particular was frustrating. I watch his articles and his bad science, and this
one was going a little far. I felt just in that he was making
these proclamations with very little evidence, which is exactly what he blames people such
as UFO researchers of doing right and then he does the same thing. He
even referenced a case in New Jersey where this had happened, but he forgot
to mention that in that case in New Jersey, those kids based community service
for tying the flares to the balloons and floating them up there. So how
do we definitely you know it. It's a rare occurrence that people are tying
balloons to flares and floating them around, especially after these kids got in a
lot of trouble for doing it in New Jersey. It's possible somebody could do
that, and his argument is that that's more possible than them being extraterrestrial.
And sure, that's that's a decent point to make, but he really jumped
to that conclusion. And not only that, then a bunch of other news
source sources went out and said they were flairs right and declare they says if
it was fact when we don't know that at all, and you know,
this guy typically does a much better job this one. He seemed very flippant
and sarcastic, and it was not typical that. Yeah, unfortunate to read
that, but he even said something like, just suggesting that they're extraterrestrial is
something like a really silly idea or something like that. Yeah. Well,
we have another update to a story we've been talking about and that some feel
that the Jerusalem UFO video case has been closed. Earlier this year, multiple
videos showing a UFO hovering over Jerusalem's Dome of the Rock received widespread attention from
the public and from the media. Benjamin Radford, again who we just spoke
about, came to his own conclusion that the videos were almost certainly a hoax
based on his experience investigating UFO images, but his decision to deem the case
closed came after investigations were re was released by Moufon, the mutual UFHO network.
Moufon released a statement last week with their findings regarding the Jerusalem UFO case
video and their chief photo and video analysis Mark Dantonio stated, I firmly believe
that the UFO was not real for many reasons. This video and other Jerusalem
UFO videos are, in my opinion, hoaxes. This case has been highly
controversial since the first video emerged in January and is likely to remain so.
Yes, definitely amongst cheer as well. It's a tough one. I mean,
I have some doubts honestly about it because the patterns and I just it's
not like regular sightings where they're posted and you hear from the witnesses and people
the witnesses are talking about their videos, and this one just seemed very staged.
And you have, like the last video that came out when the person
released, they created a new YouTube for it, and then they have this
bombastic kind of introduction and ending to it that lasts longer than their video.
Right, I mean, who sees a genuine UFO is going to go edit
it all together with this text and then this with this music and create a
whole production around their sighting. That doesn't seem to make sense to me.
No, there have been many red flags with this whole case. But yeah,
so some people say, well they mix in fakes with reels. I
don't know, I don't know. In other news, the New Zealand Defense
Force, also known as NZDF released the last three volumes of their nearly sixty
years worth of UFO UFO files last week. However, the NZDF prefers the
term UAS unidentified aerial sightings, but the NZDF will no longer accept UFO reports
or keep files on them, according to TV three in New Zealand, the
NZDF released a statement last week stating quote, the NZDF does not have any
role or expertise in the respect of uas, nor does it devote any resources
to record or investigate them, and it has no evidence to substantiate the existence
of these alleged phenomena. In quote, the NZDF is advising UFO witnesses to
contact police with their citing reports. The newly released files joined them more more
than two thousand pages of UFO files that were released back in December. Yeah,
it's interesting. They kind of did like Britain. They released some files
and then say, you know, we're we're not investigating any of this stuff.
We don't think there's anything to it, even though some of their cases
too are pretty interesting. They've got some great cases in there, and as
we pointed out when they initially released the files in December, it's fascinating to
read through some of their correspondents to see how courteous they were to Absolutely everybody
we sent them information, sent them questions, they would write back these very
pleasant letters or pleasant email, thank you so much for your information. Feel
very nice about the whole thing. Yeah, very professional. They've been very
courteous. It's unfortunate they didn't take them a little more serious, although maybe
they do behind the scenes. We'll ask our guests about this. Absolutely,
and it was it seemed kind of strange that they came out with a statement
saying we're done, we don't have any information, we don't know anything.
Yeah, sort of leave us alone, leave us alone, which doesn't seem
like, just like when we talked about the British, doesn't seem responsible that
they would not want to hear about strange things flying around in their skies,
right, because that discourages someone who might see, you know, a foreign
an object that's made from foreign technology, coming to check them out. Ole
hunter, I've got some entertainment news for you. Great singer Katie Perry believed
in extraterrestrial life. The pop singer just debuted the video for her song et,
the most recent number one single off her latest record. When discussing the
video with MTV News, Perry stated, quote, it's very difficult for me
to look up in the sky in the middle of the night and not think
that our planet is one of And here's where she quotes you. I think
Alejandro one of a bajillion. She used bajillion, and that made me think
of you. Her interest in outer space is so great that she and her
husband, Russell Brand have purchased tickets for a virgin galactic space flight. Yep,
so they're on their way to space. Yeah, but what she fails
to realize is that it's actually a trillion bajillion. So she's got she's almost
there. She just which would just blow her mind that it's actually a trillion,
But some people say a trillion zillion, bajillion bajillion. That's a lot,
man. I'll need you to write that down for me next time,
because I lose track of my zeros. Here takes a long time to write
out all those zeros. But all hunter she did say that she is extremely
fascinated in the subject and is drawn to anything related to it. So you
need to give her our magazine. Oh I should, and then she's going
to be flying up there with Bert Rattan. I guess yeah, that's so
cool. So miss Katie Perry, if you're listening Openminds dot TV, We've
got a great magazine. Check it out. We'll even send you a free
copy. You'll love it. Also in entertainment news, Sigourney we Ever believed
the extraterrestrials, the actress who was famous for her role as Ellen Ripley in
the Alien movie franchise, recently told the German magazine quote, we are not
alone in the universe. I think there's a department in our government which is
exclusively dedicated to quashing reports about aliens. And that's so unfair. It would
be nice if we weren't just able to read about it in the tabloids.
That's kind of cool. Yeah, it's one of the things that results from
all of these movies, which is great because then the actors are actresses.
In this case, she was in Paul, so they asked her, well,
do you believe in aliens? And obviously she had this response. Earlier,
La the lead guy, was asked on Jay leno you've seen a UFO.
He says yes. The next guest comes out, Christy Brinkley. She
says, I saw UFO two, and then we have the Sammy Hagary thing.
We got Katy Perry. We're gonna see a lot of it all Hunter.
I mean, we pointed out before the explosion of these Hollywood movies about
the topic we have, and we've got huge pop stars singing about it,
you know, And you're exactly right. They go on these TV shows,
do their their press circuits and the topic comes out the questions, and you
get more and more people because right now it's popular and you've got everybody else
doing it, so they're not afraid to go on a show and say,
oh yeah, I believe in aliens. It's great. They feel more comfortable
doing it because then the public, of course, is going to feel more
comfortable. That's absolutely right, which is great, yep, because then people
who didn't even believe It's like in high school when the star said something,
you're like, no, you were saying you didn't believe that last week,
and now you change your mind just because Katy Perry will I think she's probably
right. I didn't think about it. Oh, you're right. It does
open people up a lot. Yep. Yeah, Well, Alejandra, that
is it for the news for today, my friend, be sure to check
out these stories and more. Openminds dot tv your source for UFO related news.
I am your Open Minds correspondent, Jason McClellan, and you've been briefed
back to you, doctor Alejandro. Thank you, Jason. But I'm not
a doctor. Yes you are. You're an honorary doctor, doctor who doctor
Detroit. No, I'm not an honor I wish I were. Actually,
you're right coast to coast at one time said I'd be an honorary coast doctor.
That's why I call you doctor Aleandro. I forgot about that. That's
we'd welcome. Thanks buddy, So thank you Jason for the news. Other
news around open Minds. We have posted some pretty pretty cool stories lately.
In fact, one of them that we posted earlier this week was about disshaped
UFO citing over crocou Poland there is a really cool website that is doing UFO
research. The website is called Infra kind of like infrared Infra. Dot org
dot pl is a Polish site that's keeping track of UFO sidings and they had
some cool ones on March eighth and March ninth, each day, they had
two sightings near Krockout and the object in all four of these separate sightings,
which mostly had multiple usually had two or three people witnessing these objects. There
were large metallic disc shaped objects, so very cool, of course, the
common type of thing that people say or see, the most popular type of
UFO scene, which is just so very interesting. In fact, in one
case, the gentleman thought that he was essentially driving with his kids, one
of his kids. He saw this thing while he was driving. It was
going to come over the car, so he stopped and he took a look,
and he watched this thing as it flew over. It was fifty feet
in diameter, and he says it was only maybe one hundred to one hundred
and fifty feet off the ground. And like in Mars attacks or something,
you know, this thing was slowly rotating around its axis as it spun.
Other people saw similar type of things. Someone later in the day, just
a couple hours later, this thing had red lights all along its rim.
Another one said that she had noticed some lights and she thought it was possibly
a helicopter, but she noticed that it wasn't. It was a ring of
white lights. There was someone else who saw a ring of lights, and
her comment was interesting because she thought the middle of this thing was really dark,
darker than night, she said, although she could see a couple lights
inside of that thing. So we have this story up with some of the
drawings that the people had seen. Also, some of these people thought that
some of these sightings were near a Belie airport in Krocaule. Hopefully I'm saying
that right, and that's why at first they thought they were planes. And
the investigators note that these people are used to seeing planes coming out of that
airport, so they're savvy UFO or skywatcher, so they know what planes look
like and they know when something is not a plane. So you can read
all of that and English summarized on our website. Or actually they had provided
a link that I had received from one of our listeners in a translated Google
Translate, so you can kind of read the more not so translated English on
there. So it's very interesting sightings from Poland. Also, Michael Strap posted
a story on our website that was very interesting called Lunar high Strangeness. And
here again when people ask why don't astronomers see UFOs, here's another case in
which an astronomer did see a UFO. However, this was a sighting in
eighteen twelve in France Francois Arago Arajoh, if I had Antonio, he can
help me. Well, Marian speaks some French. Francois Arajo. Anyways,
he was a famous astronomer. He saw when he was looking at the Moon
some seven disshaped objects flying around the Moon. So a very interesting sighting from
way back when, back in eighteen seventy seven, there was others who had
believe they saw a configure of configuration of lights in a crater, and then
the curator for the Darling Observatory in Duluth, Minnesota also'shat a sighting and
what something like nineteen forty nineteen fifty four where he thought he saw a black
line, so some kind of large black kind of rod flying across or moving
across the surface of the Moon. So some very interesting sighting reports. And
as always what Michael does is illustrate these. Since he's a draftsman, he
kind of takes pictures of those areas of the Moon and then superimposes a three
D model of what the witnesses had explained. So very cool picture so check
that out. All of this is on the front page of Openminds dot TV.
However, we do have our guests on the phone, so let's go
ahead and talk with doctor John Alexander. Hello, are you there? We
were here? All right? Great? Well, I'm really excited to have
you on the show. Thank you so much for being on. Still there?
Yes, okay, great, Well, a couple of questions. You
had your book come out recently, UFOs Misconspiracies and Realities, and I had
talked a little earlier about your forward, the commentary and the introduction that you
had Jack Ballet, Tom Clancy, Bert Rittan. Had you known all of
these people prior to writing your book. Oh yes, I've them for a
long time. Tom had done forward. What he did to the One for
Future War was the only one he'd ever done before that. Half. I've
known a Shock for decades and I've known Bert a couple of decades as well.
Now, do you know, if let's go at least with Tom Clancy
does how does he feel about the UFO subject? Well, he has moved
over time. I think initially thought we were kind of crazy. We had
a couple of discussions on far Off topics, and I was in his apartment
in Baltimore, overlooked in the Bay, and his comment was, Alexander,
if you weren't from Los Almos, I'd throw your ass out of here.
And now he's obviously changed and you know, modestly supportive, skeptical in many
areas of course, but at least open enough to write some commentary in your
book. So that's pretty cool. And then Bert Rittan, what about his
his feelings about UFOs. Well, that was kind of surprising because I didn't
know Bert. I'd asked him for a blurb, you know, which is
basically, this is good stuff, read the book, and instead he came
in and, as you know, wrote several pages and said he wanted to
clarify some things. And in that I we had discussed inciting previously, but
that was almost a private thing. He had never you know, talked about
that in the general public. There were a few friends that he knew were
interested in the topic that he would mention his sighting to. So for him,
you know, because this guy was a giant in aerospace, holds many
many awards, and it's gonna be very hard for skeptics to take on somebody
with his kind of reputation. Right, at what point, then, did
you become interested in the phenomenon so long before you were born most of your
audience, I got interested in the mid forties forty seven, is the story
started to emerge them and it was already sort of interested in space and science
fiction, Robert Heindline and the Light, so it was kind of a natural
adjunct. Now, were you skeptical at any time or did you feel that
by following some of the incredible reports and investigations that were going on in the
forties and the fifties, that there was some credibility to the subject. Did
you feel that it was credible the entire time? Well, I think I
am a skeptic, and I think most of the stuff we hear in the
UFO community is patent nonsense and unfortunately crazy self. So the crazier the story,
you know, the more play it's getting. But there remains a hardcore
of cases that just defy explanation. And my argument has been, you know,
very simple and laid down the book. A phenomena are real, at
least some of them are. It'd be the whatever it is, it's terribly
complex. It's not going to be a simple answer. And most importantly,
what we need to do is to make it viable for incredible scientists to investigate
these things without risk of you know, losing their reputation and possibly their career.
I definitely want to get more into that. I think you have some
great insights on how people can move forward to help the field move forward in
the conventional arenas. But I wanted to also ask, you know, when
you were interested in watching the whole thing, what were some of the early
cases that really fascinated you. Well, I mean the first one. I
mean, this goes back to can Arnold of course, and those sorts of
things. I'd say Rosweld, but actually Roswell did not break for many years
after that, I mean, but the initial but just that there were sightings
that were coming in, and I'd read most of the popular books at the
time and including some that would probably be a fiction of that, but there
was only very very interesting cases they really I don't think until much later that
I got into it and started sorting out, Okay, what looks like is
hard stands up to you know, scrutiny, and how much of this are
we just you know, relying on people talking about what happened and what they
saw. Well, many of them I still believe were credible, but you
know, it's very hard to verify those sorts of things. And what's happened
now is as our sensor systems have increased and you just have and I don't
know, the skeptics cringe at this because there's no evidence, so let's just
simply not true. There are many, many cases. We know, lots
of radar cases, trace sightings, satellites do pick them up, and all
of these things can be correlated with highly credible witnesses. And you know,
some of those cases, for instance, Lannie's a more case of a landing
that I know is important for a lot of the scientists back then. How
do you feel about that case. It's a pretty solid case. That's one
where they actually had metal scrapings indentations on the ground. He certainly stood up
to scrutiny for a long period. The you know, did not have any
good alternatives other than this was a really strange sighting. Interestingly, in the
book, one of the things I've talked about is another sighting. It happened
about the same time. Nobody's ever heard this before, and I learned of
it purely accidentally. One of the things I recommend the people is, you
know, talk to your friends. And was a cocktail party and started talking
to this guy and I didn't know that well, but we had some mantermediaries
we did. And he goes, oh, well, he grew up in
the area. And you know, they're driving down the road. He's a
little kid, and this UFO comes and hovers kind of above them and then
goes and sits down off of what was in the infamous forty and you go
like, wow, there's in little of the things I point out in the
book and I want people to take away is to start cataloging these things.
I'd say for every case that we know about, there's probably ten, if
not one hundred, that you've never heard of, right, especially from like
you say, when you talk to colleagues or coworkers, family members, just
simply by asking or bringing up the subject, you find that a lot more
people have had sightings. And at least for that's been the case for most
people I've talked to you, they find a lot more people have sightings and
they had known before. Well. I think that's absolutely true. And of
course the issue is you know, we've made a kind of taboo, and
you know, people are worried about, you know, their reputation. Sometimes
they'll talk a little to their family. I used about four cases in the
front of the book involving my brothers, and nobody outside of a handful of
people have ever heard of those sorts of things. Nor do they want to
step forward and you know, get into this frame, you know, wilst
we're worried about their reputation. Right, Yeah, anybuddy, it was kind
of funny who it wasn't until he was much older, retired where and he
really didn't want to bring it up with his family, and he had mentioned
something and one of his brothers took him aside and said, yeah, you
know, when I was a teenager, I had a siding and you know,
I've been dying to tell someone in the family but was afraid to.
So they both had felt this way for decades and decades. They were a
close family and hadn't shared this story with each other till and later and later
on in their years. Well hopefully that's you know, that's where I want
to go with this and make that shage. Now I'm specifically interested in being
able to get professional people involved without dangers of their career, but a bot
of be true for the general public as well, that the awful lot of
stuff out there, and it doesn't it now, you know, to be
honest, I love these had prosaic answers, and you know you can sort
of figure that out. The point is when you get done, you know,
at the end of the day there are certain ones that you just can't
explain. So eventually your interest. You know, while you were in the
army, you put together a group of people and intelligence, very informed people
who worked in various departments that have access to information where you all could kind
of investigate just how much the government knows. Did you feel there was a
lot of secrets being held back, possibly an organization heading up the UFO secrecy
when you began this investigation, Well, when we started, we heard the
rumors like everybody else, and frankly expected, as I quite it there to
get our hands slapped the you know, I thought somebody must be minding the
store, and lo and behold, as we got into it, that was
just not the case. And I know that rules contrary to popular or wisdom
wrong. It will be that that blown about it and everybody thinks somebody else
is responsible. That's why in the book I went into fair length about how
government really works, how things move, and can you hide some stuff some
of the time? Yeah, can you hide some for a longer period of
time to a degree? You know, I think somebody once that you can't
fool all of the people all of the time. Now, what years did
your group investigate? Don't understand the question from you know, what period of
time were you all doing this investigating or looking into this issue? Oh,
started in the early eighties. I'm not sure the exact time frame, because
they were see it sort of came together. It wasn't like a precipitous event,
and the first meeting was but it started with a lot of informal discussions
of people from various places, and then it was kind of like, gee,
maybe we ought to try this and see what happens, and you know,
you yeah, we might get dinged. And that's why we were very
careful about how we went about it initially because we did all have you know,
very special clearances, and you know, as we got around, what
we found is everybody basically did the rumors, and you know, when it
got down to firsthand evidence is when it pretty much petered out, went down
a lot of rabbit holes, right, And about when did that happen?
When did you finally feel how long after you began your investigations that you had
reached a fairly solid conclusion. We're all certainly let's see by the mid eighties,
within two or three years. Now you understand I had a day job.
I mean, this wasn't like a full time assignment or anything. The
same thing was true for everybody else at the time. I was actually the
name changed a little bit, became the Director of Advanced Systems, the concepts
for Laboratory Command, and I was handling technology transition from what's called the tech
based engineering development before that. So I had huge programs that were absolutely nothing
to do with this topic. But what it did do was provide me insight
and contact with many many agencies, both in the government and in the civilian
sector that worked, particularly in aerospace and a whole wagel high technology. So
you found that it was not necessarily then there was no kind of central agency.
But it does appear that individuals such as the Air Force, you know,
the army do they all seem to have their own groups that investigate this
right didn't exist, no, So what happened was there are people who were
interested. And this is the difference of I stress the differently in personal interest
and institutional responsibility. And that's something that nobody in this community seems to understand
or be willing to accept. Right. So then what happens with some of
those cases that are investigated that For instance, Gordon Cooper says his men filmed
a disshaped object to come in land and take off. He's told a or
will come pick that up, and then he doesn't see or know what happened
to it. Do you believe that happened? And if so, well,
I know about some of the films that happened, and I know that he
in particular had film confiscated, and it's because he was taking pictures of things
he shouldn't have been taken, pictures of which he knew at the time,
and I know the people who picked those up. But it wasn't the UFO
related. What seems to happen is like most things, Gee that's interesting,
will go and investigate it. Let me give you I think one of the
classic examples, and that's the the missile cases, because that's an event that
you got to say it absolutely happened. And I interviewed many of the people
involved at the different sites who were you know, folks who were down the
tube, people who came and repaired above ground, et cetera. And you
know where I disagree with what should have been done is they looked at it
and came up with, what the hell, you know, can't figure this
out? So and then the response was sort of, well, it's never
happened before, and if it happens again, then we'll worry about it now
in a reality, I mean, and this is another thing that people are
not familiar with is that you know, most of these agencies are just getting
eaten up on a day to day basis. It's not like they haven't got
things to do. And you know, there was a Cold War on and
very freshing sorts of things that required a huge amount of attention. So anything
like this is a distraction. And that's basically how common and you know blue
Book that it's to my eyes, it was a distraction. It was not
a good thing to do. And I've met very few people who would say
association with UFOs and the government is a good thing, not career enhancing.
So and you get this sense from Brenton to Rupelt's book, who wrote about,
you know, being in charge of blue Book, that it was more
of they don't want the headache, They don't want to touch it or deal
with it because the association and it's distracting them from what their real duties are.
Yeah, the Department of Defense does defense. We deal with threats,
and we are overwhelmed with threats on a continuous basis. So anything like this
was just, like I said, a distraction of resources in the public's mind.
You know, they thought blue Book was some big comprehensive program and studied
UFOs and stuff's written up like that. But once you find out it was
pretty haphazard. And you know, they had liaison opposites at the bases who
were required to you know, be there and take reports, but they had
a lot of discretion as to which reports got even forwarded to blue Book headquarters,
which was very, very small five people. And I used Bill Coleman's
case. Here was a colonel who had a remarkable sighting I mean, chasing
the UFO across the ground so low that it's you know, kind of dust
as it goes along the fields, and then this goes on for quite a
while, multiple witnesses, et cetera, goes back, makes a report when
he got back to Greenville, and then later when he became the you know,
chief of information for the Air Force, went and looked for his own
case and didn't find it. That's just the example where the guys just even
though it's pretty dramatic, didn't even bother the forward gotcham okay. So then
you don't feel then or maybe you had found this or not, that there
were any agencies that that felt there was a genuine threat here that in other
words, there was no threat, so we didn't have to worry about it.
Is that how you think they felt that? That was the premise under
which condom you know, got the work. Now people also think that,
you know, the common report was a good thing, or what was known
as the Colorado Study. Reality is, they tried to get several institutions to
you know, undertake the study and they just refused. They didn't even didn't
even want to touch it for fear of this contamination just by you know,
guilt by association, and final the University of Colorado agreed to take it out.
I don't thing is any doubt from the get go uh and certainly with
Condon himself, it was you know, get get this out of our hair.
Mm hmm. Just make it go away. And you know, if
it's not a threat, you know, it doesn't belong to us, and
God bless whoever happens to pick it up. So earlier you referred to Maelstrom
and are you were referring, I'm sorry, to nuclear cases such as the
Malstrom where nuclear missiles were affected when UFOs were nearby. And then another example
of that, or another part possible example of that would be bent Waters,
where there were American soldiers who saw UFOs and interacted with devices. Please please
okay, Yeah, they're very unhappy. They're airmen. Air like to be
called soldiers. The airmen out there, right, they probably did no.
I think Bentwaters is one of the best cases that has come along. And
again, you know, when the skeptics get involved, what they do is
they point to misinformation about a twenty piece of one incident and the reality is
that that went on for you know, quite a while, and in fact,
at your conference, Chuck Halt, who was a deputy based commander,
and they said, oh, they've now found cases that went back to seventy
five and seventy seven, which predated this nineteen eighty k and in talking to
somebody who was there and saying they've had sightings as recently as this winner right,
even though there's nobody at the base. So if that's the case,
do you think then the military was wrong to decide that there is no threat
here? I think Condon was right. You know, weird things did not
constitute a threat, even if their devices, I'm even if they're disabling nuclear
devices. Well, I mean that's one that I certainly would have thought would
have got more you know, attention. But the point was it happened once
these were singular events. Uh did not have an answer. And the question
is, you know, how much resources are you going to commit to trying
to find answers to things you're probably not going to find an answer to.
Right, And again you're back to what's eating you off day to day.
So the secret vaults, all the secrets are actually under the rugs. They're
being swept under the rug as opposed to any files in some government lock up.
Well, I like the yeah, incompetence and whatnot accounts for far more.
You know, this is one of my big points is that in general,
the same public thinks the government's basically incompetence. You know, That's why
we say checks in the mail, although the post office actually does a pretty
good job. But the point is that, you know, the government can't
get anything right except for UFOs when they get everything perfectly, and you go,
let's just doesn't makes sense. So what people should be amazed by is
not necessarily this big secrecy, but that what they're probably underestimating is the incompetence
and by lack of interest. You know, you probably saw my slide.
I had one mirror and Obama's things to do list, you know, and
started out then you only had two wars. We've cracked that up to a
third one. Now you got an economy that's in shambles, trying to get
public health care through it had a housing market that was a collapsing, et
cetera, et cetera. And then you go down your list and I got
to I don't know, made up some number like one million, three hundred
and eighty seven thousand, six hundred and sixteen. Worry about UFOs right,
which is biting them? And are worse. You know, from a political
perspective, this is a totally toxic subject. So anybody who thinks of politician
is going to voluntarily come forward and put his name on it just got to
be, you know, drinking their own buff water there or someone what about
interesting? Look at what interested? Do you believe some of any of the
presidents weren't interested? And if so, let's say close, oh, we
know they are what they would My point and one of the issues it's amazing
to me, and particularly since the comfort is this whole notion of disclosure seems
to be murphing. It used to be we want, you know, the
truth about UFOs disclosed And as you saw on my slide, and I said,
well, disclosure happened. And for April nineteen fifty two, Harry Turman,
the president, why didn't the White House get up? They did,
They came out and said real thing and then not from earth by the way,
I went and I checked the headlines for five April of that year,
and you know what it was. I had to do with by trials in
Czechoslovakia where they were taking on the Catholic clergy is being spies for the US.
UFOs just didn't even make the list even then, but you had Reagan,
Sam Carter, solom Clinton's interested other presidents. Gorbachev came out and said,
hey, this is real. And my point was how many times they
have to be told but it's real before you believe. Hey, maybe they
told us it's real. Hell, what's morphing is it's not full disclosure.
Whatever that is? That full disclosure seems to me. And you've got to
believe whatever I do and agree with everything. Otherwise a part of the cover
up, and of course I come down is not really much to cover up.
Yeah, well I agree in that. I mean, especially you would
think that the White House, uh, the politicians, they would be the
last people to really have any real information if there is any out there.
Well, I'll tell you what I have found. Because and a guy I
would like to talk to is John Podesta, because he said, yeah,
I wish you get the information up. I'd like to know what information he
thinks is not the least if he's seen some files or something, you know,
I'd sure like to know about it. All of the things I mentioned
in the book is before a number of these files were released and there were
classified you know, somewhere secret in that and I could see both the classified
versions and the U know what was in the domain. It quite frankly with
the public, ninety eight percent of the information was already available, and that
it uh uh, you know, the little bit of what we call sources
and methods that you know hadn't been released, so most of it was already
there. But I have also found even at the highest levels and talking sitting
with senators and other places, you would and you listen to and talk about
the topic, and they are right at you know, it must be cleared
for rumors, because they've certainly heard many of the same rumors that everybody else
has. But when you start pinning them down saying where does that come from?
Well, everybody knows, Yeah, that's true. Yeah, what about
the gold on the internet? Yeah, goldwater and his you know, the
LeMay comment he talks often about about him asking to see more of the secret
rooms and LeMay telling him, hey, don't ask about that, and got
upset with him. Well, there were things called blue rooms, and UFOs
were not part of it. That's the problem with sitency. And now one
of the things, my surprise in general, I come down against secrecy,
and I have encouraged and I do encourage for anybody who's out there. And
I made the offer in the UFOs this conspiracy and reality. If you got
any information, if you've been told to sit down and you know, shut
up that this is a secret, talk to me and I will help you
get the information out. So I do think that happened to some people.
And you know, the militia's case is a classic one where he had a
phenomenal experience. He was they basically has said as the young aviator, if
you talk, we're going to take your wings away. And so he didn't.
But there does not seem to be a policy of secrecy. And again
this is where I think the general public doesn't understand the difference between policy and
incidents that happened. And I think there are some investigators out there who are
winging it, who have heard the same rumors. And so it's easier to
tell you Sadama shut up. And and if you watch I'm just watching Jesse
Ventura tonight. He's got a new book on conspiracy. There hadn't done a
conspiracy, didn't love But one of his points on secrecy is that you know,
there were sixteen million documents in the government each year classified as top secret,
and he goes, what could possibly, you know, be top secret?
Sixteen medion documents being created each year. So yeah, the secrecy over
classification is a huge problem. Well, I think that Richardson, for example,
ex governor of New Mexico, had mentioned, you know, that he
thinks the government needs to release all those their files on Roswell because they haven't.
But he was alluded to I think something very similar to what you're saying
in that it's an issue of over secrecy where if they were to release their
files there, it would prove that it was something mundane and it would show
that they did and that happened eventually. Now I will tell you, in
my opinion, the Air Force handled the whole thing abysmally, And the problem
is when you go back and you look. But if you want to know
the relative level of importance that they put on us, they gave it to
a captain, which Mason. Captains are nice people, and I was one
one point, but this is who's free that we can you know, get
for, you know, give up for a long period of time to go
write this thing and make it go away. This is not a high level
of investigation, and you start reading the things that there totally inconsistent, makes
no sense, particularly the Dumby issue about oh that explains body, makes no
sense whatsoever. But there were peace of it true. But again it gets
back to how important the Air Force think it was. Certainly wasn't a general
or even a colonel that they assigned to run the investigation and get it out.
The only thing Weaver did was he was a spokesman when it came out.
And you felt that the reports they released were accurate pretty much, well,
no, I mean parts of it were, and it probably was the
device. And if you look up Richard Miller on the on the internet,
you can find a very convincing lecture at least to me, that he gave
about the project and what it was. It's under a physics lecture at UC
Berkeley describes exactly and I actually learned a lot from that, you know,
watching his whole lectures. So why they did and why certain things were done
as early as World War two, and again none of us related to UFOs
at all. Now, some of the researchers would point to all of the
witnesses that da've talked too, And how would you explain people claiming to have
even many of them ex Military claiming to have been a part of recovery that
included body Sure. Well, as you know, my background is Special Forces,
which you know as green Berets. The estimate right now is that for
every real SF out there are thirty wannabes that are out making up the stories.
And I think that makes a lot more sense than LGM and bodies being
hidden away and all of that. And I look for it on the other
end. I mean, in the book, one of the things I do
is I say, Okay, see what I is. Rather than saying it's
not true, I say, let's suppose it's real. And let's suppose Jandro
you're in charge. I want you to make this happen. And when you
start putting the pieces together and try to make it happen and go like,
I'm gonna work this, just the pieces don't fit. In other words,
the pieces of if it were real, those pieces don't fit right. And
one of the things like, well that's how it look. If I was
the guy in charge of covering it up, no one would ever figure it
out. I would cover it up. That kid, well, if you
have an end of one, you can do that. But like they say
in Washington, if two people know, it's not a secret, right and
if you you know, the thing I've heard recently is well where has been
Laudin? Then well we know about where he is. We just you know,
he's got a lot of people protecting him. We know he's out there.
We hear from him on a rather regular basis. You know, he's
filmed, videos have come out or audio tapes and you know, get authenticated.
So he certainly certainly know that he's in an area that's what we call
on government territories. And I think that's very different from the kind of cover
up that would be required. I mean, you end up with thousands of
people, you know. Let me go back to where you started. Bert
Rutan. Now Burt was a civilian, but besides that, he sat on
the Air Force Science Board for ten years. He is the go to guy.
He did handle a lot of very very sensitive programs for the government.
It's like he and Ben Rich would go to guys if you want something done,
done right and done quickly, and he would say never even hearn an
inkling that there might have been something there, and I can tell you because
I've been with the Army Science Board. They tend to tell you a lot
of stuff. I mean when you get into high tech areas. Maybe not
everything, but they tend to be really quite honest with those kinds of a
group of people when they want, you know, scientific information passed and evaluated.
Now that brings me to kind of another person I'd like to ask you
about, and it gets into the m J twelve and some of the other
mythology that has come forward about UFOs, and some of it's been generated or
at least seemingly generated by a gentleman named Richard Doty, who was when he
began interfacing with people in the Air Force and OSI agents. What was he
up to? According to him, these were official things where he was releasing
information or claiming that he had access to information that he wouldn't produce. I
would ask, if that's accurate, why wasn't he in jail? Well,
according to him, what they if they did what they did they said they
did with Bennewitz, Let's go to jail. That was the crime, so
right, giving him information just for the people we're talking about breaking and entering
and you know things they described about going in there and trying to you know,
you know, psychologically break him. And you know we're talking criminal acts,
not just feeding somebody in disinformation or something like that. Don't know,
you'll have to ask him. Yeah, well, then so you don't know
why he would have been doing all of these things. I said, but
it doesn't make sense to me. And I've heard the same stories you have.
I mean, not many other rumors that I haven't heard. But this
is what I do. I backtrack the rumors and say, what where does
this make sense? And it doesn't. Yeh so if because you know,
he's out there himself even making claims to having this sort of information and that
sort of information, and so those claims most likely are just untrue, you'll
have to ask him. Uh huh, doesn't make sense. All I say
is it doesn't make sense to me. And at some of these claims,
he claimed, Well, one of the things I offer is you want to
meet, I can tell you where my SSO will pass the clearances because I'm
still cleared. We'll go in the skiff and talk. All right. So
then when it comes to you know, one of the rumors that he's kind
of credited with spreading is the idea of the Majestic twelve organization kind of in
a way the organization you were looking for back in the eighties with you your
colleagues there and never found. I lost something in that, oh, just
in that the Majestic twelve, which of course you're aware of. Like you
said, you know the rumors, but you feel then that also, well
what do you feel about those rumors? Well, I've only you know,
I think you've seen my presentation that. Yeah, And I compare MJ twelve
to Watergate, and you go, if you got a secret and you want
to get it out, what do you do with it? You send it
to some numbnuts who hasn't got any experience and no resources, And I mean,
don't even tell them you got it. You supposely send them a role
of film and hope they'll open it and hope they'll know what it is and
hope that they'll do something and hope that the information will get out. Or
do you go to the Washington Post and get vetted by Ben Bradley and all
of them. We have massive resources who then cross correlate everything and come out
and present the information. I'd leave it up to the public to decide.
I suppose I say you have a secret, you want to get it out,
how do you go about doing it? And the way this happened makes
no sense anybody, at least to me. Yeah, so then possibly someone
hoax this whole thing and or someone out there for some reason. Do you
think that happens a lot? It sounds like almost. You know, with
a lot of these stories, you don't think they're they're real. And you
know with some of these people that they're like you talked about people claiming to
bring green berets when they're not, which lord knows how happened with that,
People telling fish tales and things like that. That's why, you know,
special Forces and Seals and not we have what's called the Wall of Shame,
and you know, we started exposing these people and you put them out.
Seals actually have a better grasp because they had something called the Buds list and
every seal that went through went to the basic training, and they have a
list in Special Forces. It gets a little bit broader than that, and
there are many more of us. But the point is, in fact,
I just saw some interesting statistics and they were going about Vietnam. They said
that of all the people served in Vietnam, there's at least five who are
claiming that they were Vietnam veterans now who were never there. So and getting
back more specific to this, I am convinced there are too many people with
too much time on their hands. We're just you know, rolling the screw
and one of the one of the let me get because this is closer to
a topic that I think is really important. I don't think MJ twelve is
important. And that's this whole area of hoaxes. Because my point is hoaxes
are not benign. You know, they keep putting this out as if a
whole hall, big joke. Look what we did to the people. Reality
is it's not. Now. Let me take the one that happened to New
Jersey a little over a year ago when they were sending the flares up and
you go, first of all, it's really dangerous because you know, what
goes up comes down. If the flares are still burning, you have a
chance for fires. Say it's a social experiment, and these people get encouraged,
you know by the skeptic you go on a skeptic website. They actually
applauded them for this social experiment. But you're really doing is undermining credibility.
And I think this is one of the biggest problems that you have. And
I will ding Fife Symington, you know, the governor of your great state,
former governor, of course. And while he later came out and said,
oh, by the way, I actually saw this beast that they call,
you know, the phoenix, Weiss had personally done it, and yet
he had gone to fairly extensive lengths to make a big joke out of it,
absolutely knowing better. And I think those things, you know, those
kinds of actions are more detrimental than you can possibly believe, and particularly at
a time where you know, the credibility of the government across the board is
all time almost historic loans and for good reason. They're pretty screwed up.
Yeah, well there again, if they're so screwed up as we believe in
his other how is it that there's you know, I'm mission when it gets
to unfos. Yeah. I get your point with that kind of the irony
or the paradox in that. Okay, these guys are a bunch of idiots,
but at the same time they're able to do this incredible task of keeping
this gigantic secret. So there's a duality there that is kind of incongruent that
doesn't match at least. Antonio wanted me to ask you about cash Landrum.
He said that you had some involvement with the investigation of this case. Well,
very minor, but yes we did. What happened cash Landrom is absolutely
real. There's one hundred probability that that happens. Just an excellent case has
been reviewed, I think embellished on you as we've gone along. And what
happened was that because their helicopters were seen at the right and when the government
got sued because these people did get irradiated and were seriously injured, one hundred
percent sure of that. And so it went to the Air Force initially to
get sued and they said, oops, the helicopopter as they saw were Sage
forty sevens and we've identified those as belonging to the army. So it went
and a friend of mine, George Sarran, who was with the DAIG Department
of Army Inspector General, I had been working there and he knew that I
was interested in unusual topics and there were several of us that he called in
and he had actually done quite an excellent child going out, and it took
the case very seriously, and the bottom line was that the helicopters weren't there.
There was one helicopter that had been out that day. It had been
from Fort Hood, had flown down and had landed at the time. When
you put all the pieces together, you could do a segment just on this
case. Put all the pieces together. You know, this is a very
significant case, and the helicopters couldn't have been there but for some other pretty
good reasons. You couldn't fly that long. People don't know that there were
other sightings of the helicopters, and pretty soon you're into only were they there,
but how long were they flying? And then you're in the refueling and
you know, just a massive operation. And of course timing is totally suspect,
because hey, it was the same night as one of the incidents at
Benlewater's and anybody who was in the military knew that during particularly during that period
quite frequently between Christmas and New Years, you just didn't do big things,
you know, have us we were on a fifty percent we're fifty you know,
you were working halftime and half the people were on leave and gone,
and you know, just not the time you'd be orchestrating those things. As
far as the test go. We got places to test unusual systems and you
don't do it, you know, close to a major metropolitan area to catch
people up. And you can let me know if I'm accurate here in letting
people know. Kind of the highlights of this case is nineteen eighty December twenty
nine, some witnesses in Texas they drive up the road and see this what
a diamond shaped object with planes coming out of it. They get out of
their car and look at it, but then it's extremely hot. Our car
gets hot, some plastic starts to melt in their car, so they get
in and they leave, and then years later they suffer some terrible no no,
no, okay, but that's much. But what's important was that the
injuries occurred almost immediately, and as we know from the story, this was
really an important issue. The lens of the credibility of a radiation exposure is
that one of the women got out, well, Corey, the little boy
got out, ran, look, got scared, ran and jumped back in
the car. So his overall exposure was minimal. One of them got out
and walked in front of the car. The other one stood you know,
opened the car door, but stood behind it, so it was blocking.
The point was that the degree of radiation that they seem to have been exposed
to is directly proportional to the story that they told. I mean, so
one got a whole body radiation, one was protected, one just got the
you know, the quick exposure and sent back so very significant. Already seeing
helicopters and then what you were saying, probably going out to check out what
the heck this thing was. But you're also saying because it was December twenty
nine, because some people suspect that maybe it was a black project being tested
or something like that. But you wouldn't be testing something during that time of
the year, It's what you're saying, Well, you probably wouldn't do it
then, unless you know, you didn't do some of that when we were
getting ready to go into a wrap. It was at the National Lab.
We actually built the system from scratch over Christmas. But that's because you were
going to war nineteen eighty that was not happening, and you know, I
you know, my answer gets it's almost tougher, but it says helicopters probably
weren't there oh at all. So the question, I think people saw helicopters,
and there were other people later who saw the helicopters as well, but
the helicopters weren't there and it wasn't And one of the charge Serranda then was
to go and checked the Task Force one sixties was one of those black units
and out of Campbell known yet wasn't them checked everybody at helicopters, even the
Marines. Uh, And but we found the Marine am previously was off of
Florida at that time, so they weren't even close to the area. Accounted
for every helicopter in the area. Uh, in the state of Texas,
for hood, et cetera. You know, they were out. Everything was
done without their log books, which aviators know you just don't do. And
uh it uh you know. You then with what is it? You know?
I come up with two potential solutions. One is holographs, that whatever
of the widget was, it was there and it was real, could project
you know, holographs. And the second one was that it has utility to
actually interact with your mind and make you think you saw helicopters, but options,
but but you know it offers solutions other than military helicopters being there.
The widget you're referring to being the object that was seen. Yeah, and
well we know we know there was something there and that it was irradiating.
I mean that that is one hundred accurate. Yeah, Now, who do
you think might have built this way? King at us? So you do
believe it, think it came don't think it came from uh, you know,
from traditional sources on this world? Gotcha? So the possibility of well
then would you go so far? Do you believe possibly some of these are
extraterrestrial civilizations? It's certainly not terrestrial. We get into et versus ed et
cetera, et cetera, and I don't know. I mean, the bottom
line in my bucket I get at the end is that no simple solution fits
all of the observations that are seen. So there's little green guys from Zeta
Reticula. I decide to zip down here and take a vacation. That's an
answer what you saw. When you talk about UFOs, we talk about things
from little balls of light to hard things that are big a mile across.
Some guys picked up on multiple radars and all that and everything in between.
It is that everything in between. It's disconcerting. Too many different types,
too much ill thing. So the simple solution that you know, we're on
the like the Hollywood starmap, we're on the you know, the vacation starmap
for the universe or something. Got problems there, right, Well, now
we're that we're getting towards the end of the show, and you've mentioned the
end of the book, getting into the epilogue. Quote Vetis Vettis, I
don't know if I'm saying it right, but where do we go from here?
I think you have some great quote Vodis, you have some great suggestions
for you know, the people who do believe in this phenomena on on better
ways to approach government on this issue. Yeah. Well, one of the
things I suggested for the government that they could do is in contrary of what
I don't have to take on my friends Hampton. But no, Sheila Woodenhall
really did went back and check that she did release anybody from Roswell from any
oaths that they had. And if you had somebody like Gates or Clappers,
who's now the director of the National Director of National Intelligence come out and just
say the wave of wand say anybody who's been told they can't talk about UFO
sightings is now free and clear and they can talk about it. That's a
no cost, win win situation. Now the guys who aren't gonna win,
there's gonna be a lot of people who can tell them stories. They're gonna
be running for cover because they can't anymore use that I'd tell you about,
I have to kill your response. Now, that'd be a real simple one.
I wish they'd do it. Now. If they did that, then
could that possibly Do you think they're afraid of getting that headache that they tried
to get rid of before. If all of a sudden, you know,
people are, it's just not the it's not on their scope. They just
keep we don't even think about these things. So then they wouldn't have to
approach that. Like I say, we're bomba and could that be? Now
that's the third war? And you want me to worry about what now?
And I mean, it's a joke and people don't realize that. I'm not
sure it should be, but that's certainly the way an administration would look at
it. Now you had some pointers, for instance, just talking about what
the public can do. Also in interacting with politicians or government, well,
you got to be crazy if you're a politician has touched this, and they
used Dennis Concentis as a kind of a classic example. Don't agree much for
his politics, but I think he's you know, he got the balls to
stand up and say, you know, I saw someone didn't understand it.
Would like to know what it was. But if you look at what happened,
you know when he was there running for president, the reason for asking
him that the presidential debate was not accidental and it was not to help him,
right. It was seen as an overt move to just cut his legs
out. And knowing that anybody who you know says those things positively, it's
not a good thing. It's like I mentioned in the congressman, adult,
can you take a twenty point hit in the polls? Right? And unfortunately,
yeah, that's what it did to him. It did not help him,
like you're saying it. It was designed not to help him. That
was not an accident. It's not an issue that's brought up to help someone
in their campaign. Well, I point out the thing with Clayburn Pell,
whom I did know, who was you know, interested not so much in
UFOs. Did stop biomofon meaning worms. When he died, the Washington Post
demigrated him in his obituary. I mean, you know, how low do
you get? The point is, you know this stuff literally follows you to
your grave? All right, well, we are out of time. The
book is UFOs Misconspiracies and Realities. You can get it at Amazon. And
also your website is John B. Alexander dot com, so that's where people
can go and also buy the book and find out more about you. Right,
oh right, great. The website is yep, a lot of infos.
So I knew this would be a great interview. It definitely leaves someone
thinking a lot to think about. Thank you so much for joining us.
Okay, all right, we are out of time. Thanks for listening to
our show tonight. Next week we're gonna have trolls and tire j toptens more
names that I am probably pronouncing wrong. Of New Paradigm films. They did
the movie The Day Before Disclosure documentary that won the People's Choice Award at the
International UFO Congress. They're in Norway, so this is gonna be great anyway.
Thank you for listening to Open Minds Radio. Don't forget to voice at
openminds dot tv for more UFO news. Talk to you next week.