WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.680 --> 00:00:12.800 Look Host Radio. Welcome to Open Minds Radio with Alejandro Roja. Open Minds 2 00:00:12.880 --> 00:00:18.280 Radio is the UFO news authority, presenting evidence and the latest news regarding the 3 00:00:18.440 --> 00:00:26.960 UFO phenomenon. Here're your host, Alejandro Roja. Hello and welcome to Open 4 00:00:27.079 --> 00:00:33.799 Minds Radio. It is wonderful to be here with you all again today. 5 00:00:34.719 --> 00:00:41.719 We have a great show today. Our guest is doctor John Alexander, a 6 00:00:41.840 --> 00:00:49.840 retired Army colonel, a leading advocate for the development of non lethal weapons. 7 00:00:49.880 --> 00:00:56.079 But more importantly, he during his time in the Army, dabbled into paranormal 8 00:00:56.759 --> 00:01:03.560 especially and including UFOs. Now, he has a very conservative perspective regarding the 9 00:01:03.920 --> 00:01:08.599 UFOs and the government. However, he does believe that UFOs are a real 10 00:01:08.719 --> 00:01:14.120 phenomena and an important one. So we're going to talk to him all about 11 00:01:14.159 --> 00:01:23.599 his controversial views on the subject, what he found in his investigations. He 12 00:01:23.719 --> 00:01:29.239 actually compiled a group to investigate UFOs that were members of the Department of Defense, 13 00:01:29.359 --> 00:01:34.840 the intelligence community, they were in the aerospace industry. So he's done 14 00:01:34.879 --> 00:01:40.480 a lot of work on this and he has actually just released a book called 15 00:01:40.640 --> 00:01:45.599 UFOs Myths, Conspiracies and Realities, and it's kind of cool. He as 16 00:01:45.640 --> 00:01:49.719 a forward by Jacques Vallet, who we've had on the show before, commentary 17 00:01:49.799 --> 00:01:57.040 by the very popular author Tom Clancy, and then an introduction by Bert ritt 18 00:01:57.040 --> 00:02:04.239 Hand. So all very prestigious people that have written about his book, and 19 00:02:04.400 --> 00:02:08.000 I think they kind of because of his point of views, really they kind 20 00:02:08.000 --> 00:02:14.680 of lend credence to the whole. Perhaps they also feel there is more to 21 00:02:14.719 --> 00:02:17.840 this phenomena than they lead on. So of course, as we know, 22 00:02:17.960 --> 00:02:23.240 especially with Tom Clancy, very conservative defense writer, kind of a hawkish type 23 00:02:23.240 --> 00:02:29.199 of character. And then Bert Rattan who is in charge of where it heads 24 00:02:29.280 --> 00:02:35.439 up the Virgin Galactic Space program, so he's going to be taking people into 25 00:02:35.439 --> 00:02:40.759 space very soon. Pretty cool stuff, pretty pretty pretty cool. So this 26 00:02:40.800 --> 00:02:45.120 is going to be a neat show. I'm really excited to talk to him 27 00:02:45.120 --> 00:02:47.560 about all of the things that he's been involved in and his new book. 28 00:02:47.840 --> 00:02:52.000 He just spoke at the UFO Congress recently, and then he had a debate 29 00:02:52.120 --> 00:02:58.439 with Stanton Friedman that was quote unquote moderated by Daniel Sheehan. But as he 30 00:02:58.599 --> 00:03:04.319 will share with us, the moderator's supposed to be unbiased, but this moderator 31 00:03:04.439 --> 00:03:07.879 was a little more involved than moderators typically are, and certainly had his own 32 00:03:07.919 --> 00:03:14.680 point of views that he shared, and we'll talk to doctor Alexander all about 33 00:03:14.719 --> 00:03:16.840 that. So that's really exciting. I'm excited to talk to him. This 34 00:03:16.879 --> 00:03:23.800 is going to be a lot of fun. Also, I wanted to talk 35 00:03:23.840 --> 00:03:29.719 to a guy who really follows up on UFO news. He's a really neat 36 00:03:29.800 --> 00:03:34.960 fellow and he's going to be on the show in just a minute here because 37 00:03:35.159 --> 00:03:38.199 he works for Open Minds and Open Minds you'll notice we follow the UFO he 38 00:03:38.560 --> 00:03:46.000 headlines on a regular basis, and there's a lot of news going on that 39 00:03:46.080 --> 00:03:49.960 I'm really excited to talk about. Some of it. We talked Antonio and 40 00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:52.719 I talked to when we're on Coast to Coast a couple of weeks ago, 41 00:03:53.080 --> 00:03:58.560 not even just a week from yesterday. But there's more news that has happened 42 00:03:58.560 --> 00:04:01.159 on the subject we were talking about on Coast to Coast, and if Jason, 43 00:04:01.240 --> 00:04:04.400 our news correspondent, doesn't talked about those, I'll bring those up and 44 00:04:04.439 --> 00:04:11.199 we'll talk about those. But ladies and gentlemen, let me welcome the one 45 00:04:11.360 --> 00:04:16.439 and the only Open Mind Radio's very own news correspondent, Jason McClelland Jason. 46 00:04:16.439 --> 00:04:19.000 Hello, how are you. I'm great, Alejandro, how are you, 47 00:04:19.040 --> 00:04:23.000 my friend? Not too bad? Very good to be here. And greetings 48 00:04:23.000 --> 00:04:27.639 to you all out there, all to our wonderful listeners around this wonderful planet 49 00:04:27.639 --> 00:04:31.560 of ours. This is your Open Minds News Brief for Monday, April fourth, 50 00:04:31.720 --> 00:04:36.519 twenty eleven. It's April already. This year is going quickly. I 51 00:04:36.639 --> 00:04:42.079 like that though. We'll start off with a story that was big for the 52 00:04:42.079 --> 00:04:46.480 weekend. Multiple UFOs appeared in the sky above South Chicago on Saturday night. 53 00:04:46.040 --> 00:04:50.199 A woman among the witnesses observed the line of mysterious lights in the sky, 54 00:04:50.680 --> 00:04:56.279 and she recorded the event with her cell phone camera. The sighting left witnesses 55 00:04:56.319 --> 00:05:00.319 scratching their heads, and it was reported on by various media outlets. But 56 00:05:00.360 --> 00:05:03.920 according to AOL news, Renee Hutchinson, founder and president of a foundation that 57 00:05:03.959 --> 00:05:10.040 fights for strict child abuse laws, claims the strange lights were simply Chinese lanterns. 58 00:05:10.319 --> 00:05:14.600 Quote released in the air in memory of abuse victims end quote. While 59 00:05:14.720 --> 00:05:20.079 Chicago's ABC affiliate wls TV reported witness descriptions of the lights as orange colored, 60 00:05:20.120 --> 00:05:26.839 blinking lights. Their appearance in the video is quite white test conducted by Open 61 00:05:26.920 --> 00:05:30.079 Minds. That's Alejandro, and let's see who else do we have. We 62 00:05:30.120 --> 00:05:36.480 had Maureen and myself fun tests we did, and a person who wants to 63 00:05:36.639 --> 00:05:41.720 remain anonymous. Correct, We did our own test with Chinese lanterns and we 64 00:05:41.800 --> 00:05:46.519 found out and we did this with multiple colored Chinese lanterns and found out whether 65 00:05:46.600 --> 00:05:50.079 it's a white Chinese lantern or a green Chinese lantern. All you really see 66 00:05:50.120 --> 00:05:56.040 from the ground is an orange flickering light. That's what they look like in 67 00:05:56.079 --> 00:06:01.160 the sky. So it's interesting. I mean, the orange flickering color would 68 00:06:01.160 --> 00:06:06.639 be consistent with what WLS TV how they said the description for witnesses was, 69 00:06:08.160 --> 00:06:13.240 but the video doesn't seem to fit with the description they gave. Oh so 70 00:06:13.399 --> 00:06:17.600 you're you don't think possibly these were the balloons? No, I think a 71 00:06:17.600 --> 00:06:24.959 lot of a lot of videos we see are quite identifiably Chinese lanterns. But 72 00:06:25.279 --> 00:06:28.040 the video, and it looked like a good video too. I mean, 73 00:06:28.240 --> 00:06:31.560 there's lights in the sky appear differently depending on what kind of camera you have, 74 00:06:31.680 --> 00:06:34.879 what kind of you know, device you used to capture the video with. 75 00:06:35.079 --> 00:06:40.279 But this seemed to be very bright white lights, whereas every we took 76 00:06:40.399 --> 00:06:45.000 video of ours with multiple cameras, different types of cameras, different qualities, 77 00:06:46.720 --> 00:06:50.079 and in all of them orange flickering lights. That's true. Now, it 78 00:06:50.079 --> 00:06:54.399 could be a problem with the camera though, something with the wipeout. Absolutely, 79 00:06:54.879 --> 00:06:58.120 it could certainly be that because I looked at the I didn't look at 80 00:06:58.120 --> 00:07:01.600 the video closely. Honestly, by the time I had looked at this story, 81 00:07:01.879 --> 00:07:06.600 they had already talked about the balloons, and you know how that had 82 00:07:06.639 --> 00:07:12.800 happened at the same time, so I already had the perspective okase clothes honestly 83 00:07:12.839 --> 00:07:16.920 when I looked at him, and the characteristics were similar, at least in 84 00:07:16.959 --> 00:07:23.639 the very little that I saw to the lantern. So I just didn't watch 85 00:07:23.720 --> 00:07:27.079 much or pay much attention. So I'll have to look at take a closer 86 00:07:27.120 --> 00:07:30.839 look. The video is interesting to watch. It most likely was some sort 87 00:07:30.839 --> 00:07:36.439 of balloon, some illuminated balloon or lantern sky lantern. But the characteristics, 88 00:07:36.519 --> 00:07:41.879 you know, with the color, struck me as odd. Yeah, right 89 00:07:41.959 --> 00:07:45.680 in the video. And I know what you're saying, because the lights did 90 00:07:45.680 --> 00:07:48.680 not look colored right. In fact, the video didn't look like it had 91 00:07:48.759 --> 00:07:54.639 color. That could also be true out that could also be true and could 92 00:07:54.680 --> 00:07:59.720 explain it. But again, just because somebody comes forward and says, oh, 93 00:07:59.720 --> 00:08:03.000 I was releasing lanterns at that time, there wasn't enough information in the 94 00:08:03.040 --> 00:08:07.759 story to seal the deal for me. Because we've seen that in the past, 95 00:08:07.839 --> 00:08:11.959 especially a lot of the sightings in Florida, where someone will come forward 96 00:08:11.000 --> 00:08:13.319 and say, oh, yeah, we were releasing balloons at a party, 97 00:08:13.720 --> 00:08:20.839 But that party was many miles away and didn't necessarily happen at the same time 98 00:08:20.000 --> 00:08:22.600 or time that the lanterns would have been in the skies. We saw. 99 00:08:22.639 --> 00:08:26.560 Those things don't stay in the air that long. And from our experience, 100 00:08:26.680 --> 00:08:30.720 I mean, I live on the far east side of the little town of 101 00:08:30.759 --> 00:08:35.559 Maricopa. If I had seen the UFO to the east and then someone said 102 00:08:35.639 --> 00:08:39.759 they have launched balloons at the same time on the west side of town, 103 00:08:41.080 --> 00:08:43.879 there's no way those balloons on the west side of town would have been what 104 00:08:43.960 --> 00:08:46.679 I saw. Not a chance. So I mean, because even in a 105 00:08:46.759 --> 00:08:52.720 small town like what I have, from our experience, the balloons don't float 106 00:08:52.720 --> 00:08:56.799 that far. Correct, People throughout my neighborhood probably saw maybe in a few 107 00:08:56.840 --> 00:09:01.840 surrounding neighborhoods, but that's about it. They don't go higher that farm and 108 00:09:01.879 --> 00:09:03.600 that like, like we pointed out before, there are various types of balloons, 109 00:09:03.639 --> 00:09:07.519 various types of lanterns, So it's certainly possible, but from our experience, 110 00:09:07.720 --> 00:09:11.679 from what we've seen personally, not the case. Yep. So with 111 00:09:11.759 --> 00:09:16.600 an interesting video, you should watch it again. I will. The Daily 112 00:09:16.600 --> 00:09:20.840 Mail recently quoted NASA Inspector General Paul Martin is stating that NASA is quote vulnerable 113 00:09:20.879 --> 00:09:26.600 to computer incidents that could have a severe and catastrophic effect on agency assets, 114 00:09:26.879 --> 00:09:33.080 operation and personnel end quote. Martin went on to specifically identify the vulnerable targets 115 00:09:33.559 --> 00:09:39.919 six computer servers associated with IT assets that control spacecraft and contain critical data. 116 00:09:41.159 --> 00:09:46.639 It has vulnerabilities that would allow remote attackers to take control of or render them 117 00:09:46.679 --> 00:09:50.879 unavailable. It's kind of weird that this guy would do his analysis but then 118 00:09:52.240 --> 00:09:58.240 release a public statement saying here's where our problems are. Open door, come 119 00:09:58.320 --> 00:10:01.679 get us. Kind of scary with these itic. Security issues aren't anything new 120 00:10:01.720 --> 00:10:07.639 for NASA, as multiple hackers have successfully penetrated the agency's network in the past. 121 00:10:07.120 --> 00:10:11.440 Britain Gary McKinnon successfully hacked into several NASA and US military computers during two 122 00:10:11.480 --> 00:10:16.919 thousand and one and two thousand and two in search of information relating to UFOs. 123 00:10:16.159 --> 00:10:20.399 McKinnon's work has been called the biggest military computer hack of all time, 124 00:10:20.720 --> 00:10:26.320 and he is currently fighting extradition to the US. The network penetrations by McKinnon 125 00:10:26.360 --> 00:10:28.759 and other hackers seems to have not been important enough to NASSA to merit improve 126 00:10:28.879 --> 00:10:35.879 network security. Yeah. Well, I'm sure if you were brave and or 127 00:10:35.960 --> 00:10:39.679 dumb enough, I don't know which would be most appropriate to try to hack 128 00:10:39.759 --> 00:10:45.480 into NASA's computer network. It wouldn't be that difficult if you were persistent like 129 00:10:45.759 --> 00:10:50.240 McKinnon was. He wasn't doing anything that sophisticated, and he was able to 130 00:10:50.279 --> 00:10:56.039 get in. And it's probably the case today, which is unfortunate and a 131 00:10:56.080 --> 00:11:03.120 little concerning, but which is probably true of some military Harry computers. But 132 00:11:03.200 --> 00:11:07.120 unfortunately, you know, even though it might be very simple to do, 133 00:11:07.279 --> 00:11:11.799 I certainly would not advise anybody to do it, who know, because you 134 00:11:11.840 --> 00:11:16.639 can be like Gary and be facing the rest of your life in prison. 135 00:11:16.039 --> 00:11:20.120 Work guy's been fighting for ten years now, pretty much. But it is 136 00:11:20.120 --> 00:11:28.279 odd because I know we discussed this as having been brought up in the media 137 00:11:28.919 --> 00:11:35.720 relating to the McKinnon case about how Gary's hacks brought to light all of these 138 00:11:35.759 --> 00:11:43.360 flaws with their security, NASA specifically, so they supposedly were taking measures to 139 00:11:43.399 --> 00:11:50.240 improve their security ten years ago, but apparently those measures weren't enough, Yeah, 140 00:11:50.360 --> 00:11:54.879 or they just didn't bother Yeah, surprising. I talked to rit guy 141 00:11:54.200 --> 00:11:58.960 here and he talked about how back when Gary McKinnon was doing his hacking, 142 00:12:00.440 --> 00:12:03.480 security was not as big of an issue and it was much more lax, 143 00:12:05.000 --> 00:12:07.679 and especially for the government. I know, it's very difficult. For instance, 144 00:12:07.720 --> 00:12:11.159 my parents work for the National Park Service. They had to have so 145 00:12:11.240 --> 00:12:16.480 many logins and everything to get into their computers. Everything was monitored. They 146 00:12:16.519 --> 00:12:22.879 couldn't watch look at certain websites and things like that, and it's extremely restrictive, 147 00:12:22.000 --> 00:12:26.360 more so than in the public sector, you know, where I was 148 00:12:26.399 --> 00:12:30.159 working, which we still had security, but so I was surprised, you 149 00:12:30.159 --> 00:12:33.360 know, it would be so easy. But I think what happens when you're 150 00:12:33.399 --> 00:12:37.480 so constrictive, then you'll have a group of employees who are going to look 151 00:12:37.519 --> 00:12:41.720 for ways to get around that. And so they probably have some computers that 152 00:12:41.759 --> 00:12:46.960 are totally unrestricted because they don't want to go through the hassle of everyday stuff. 153 00:12:46.960 --> 00:12:50.759 And then it makes it easier and bubba, and then here and there, 154 00:12:50.759 --> 00:12:54.759 and then you have people you contract with who aren't adhering to the standards 155 00:12:54.759 --> 00:13:01.039 of security. And here you have a people. Well they need to to 156 00:13:01.320 --> 00:13:05.919 get their act together. Yeah, say better. It's almost like they don't 157 00:13:05.919 --> 00:13:11.639 care though I don't know. Four people started accessing their satellites and dropping them 158 00:13:11.679 --> 00:13:16.159 on helpless toavilagor danger. Yeah, I don't want a satellite fallen in my 159 00:13:16.240 --> 00:13:20.000 head. Here's an update from a story we had we talked about last week 160 00:13:20.840 --> 00:13:26.240 about mysterious lights that were in the sky above Lafayette, Colorado. These lights 161 00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:30.840 were captured on video by one witness. The UFO video gained widespread attention and 162 00:13:30.919 --> 00:13:35.559 continues to receive attention from some media outlets around the world. Some, however, 163 00:13:35.559 --> 00:13:39.159 believed the strange lights were nothing more than road flares attached to balloons. 164 00:13:39.840 --> 00:13:45.559 Life Science is Bad Science columnist Benjamin Redford Radford published an article last week presenting 165 00:13:45.559 --> 00:13:48.799 the road flare theory to explain the Colorado lights. In his article, Radford 166 00:13:48.799 --> 00:13:54.159 bases his theory on comments made by Leroy Vanderbt, the witness who videotaped the 167 00:13:54.240 --> 00:13:58.720 lights. Vandervet said the lights moved silently through the sky. From this, 168 00:13:58.919 --> 00:14:03.519 Radford concluded that quote the lights were likely floating, not moving under their own 169 00:14:03.559 --> 00:14:07.960 power. In quote. This led him to his suggestion of road flares tied 170 00:14:07.960 --> 00:14:13.240 to balloons, Supporting his theory. Further, Radford mentions the descriptions provided by 171 00:14:13.320 --> 00:14:18.879 Vandervett of the disappearance disappearance of the lights. After staying steady, they faded 172 00:14:18.919 --> 00:14:24.399 away. Radford points out that this fading away is exactly like dying road flares 173 00:14:26.080 --> 00:14:30.000 how they would behave if they were tied to balloons. But, as Radford 174 00:14:30.039 --> 00:14:33.000 points out, of course it's also possible that aliens visited Colorado last week in 175 00:14:33.039 --> 00:14:37.279 a spacecraft that just happened to look like road flares tied to balloons. The 176 00:14:37.600 --> 00:14:41.480 disappearance of lights by gradual fading away doesn't prove that flares were tied to balloons 177 00:14:41.480 --> 00:14:46.440 in this case, even though hoaxes involving balloons and road flares have been proven 178 00:14:46.440 --> 00:14:50.200 in the past. While further evidence to support this theory may surface in the 179 00:14:50.200 --> 00:14:54.240 future, for now, the lights still remain unidentified. Yeah that article in 180 00:14:54.279 --> 00:15:01.399 particular was frustrating. I watch his articles and his bad science, and this 181 00:15:01.440 --> 00:15:03.960 one was going a little far. I felt just in that he was making 182 00:15:05.000 --> 00:15:11.559 these proclamations with very little evidence, which is exactly what he blames people such 183 00:15:11.600 --> 00:15:16.360 as UFO researchers of doing right and then he does the same thing. He 184 00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:20.240 even referenced a case in New Jersey where this had happened, but he forgot 185 00:15:20.240 --> 00:15:26.200 to mention that in that case in New Jersey, those kids based community service 186 00:15:26.720 --> 00:15:33.440 for tying the flares to the balloons and floating them up there. So how 187 00:15:33.480 --> 00:15:37.039 do we definitely you know it. It's a rare occurrence that people are tying 188 00:15:37.039 --> 00:15:41.799 balloons to flares and floating them around, especially after these kids got in a 189 00:15:41.840 --> 00:15:46.320 lot of trouble for doing it in New Jersey. It's possible somebody could do 190 00:15:46.440 --> 00:15:52.159 that, and his argument is that that's more possible than them being extraterrestrial. 191 00:15:52.840 --> 00:15:58.240 And sure, that's that's a decent point to make, but he really jumped 192 00:15:58.240 --> 00:16:00.519 to that conclusion. And not only that, then a bunch of other news 193 00:16:00.559 --> 00:16:06.679 source sources went out and said they were flairs right and declare they says if 194 00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:08.679 it was fact when we don't know that at all, and you know, 195 00:16:08.720 --> 00:16:14.879 this guy typically does a much better job this one. He seemed very flippant 196 00:16:14.919 --> 00:16:18.960 and sarcastic, and it was not typical that. Yeah, unfortunate to read 197 00:16:19.000 --> 00:16:23.159 that, but he even said something like, just suggesting that they're extraterrestrial is 198 00:16:23.200 --> 00:16:29.879 something like a really silly idea or something like that. Yeah. Well, 199 00:16:29.960 --> 00:16:33.159 we have another update to a story we've been talking about and that some feel 200 00:16:33.200 --> 00:16:37.919 that the Jerusalem UFO video case has been closed. Earlier this year, multiple 201 00:16:37.960 --> 00:16:42.840 videos showing a UFO hovering over Jerusalem's Dome of the Rock received widespread attention from 202 00:16:42.840 --> 00:16:47.720 the public and from the media. Benjamin Radford, again who we just spoke 203 00:16:47.720 --> 00:16:51.879 about, came to his own conclusion that the videos were almost certainly a hoax 204 00:16:52.039 --> 00:16:56.840 based on his experience investigating UFO images, but his decision to deem the case 205 00:16:56.919 --> 00:17:02.600 closed came after investigations were re was released by Moufon, the mutual UFHO network. 206 00:17:03.080 --> 00:17:07.039 Moufon released a statement last week with their findings regarding the Jerusalem UFO case 207 00:17:07.119 --> 00:17:12.920 video and their chief photo and video analysis Mark Dantonio stated, I firmly believe 208 00:17:14.000 --> 00:17:18.759 that the UFO was not real for many reasons. This video and other Jerusalem 209 00:17:18.839 --> 00:17:22.920 UFO videos are, in my opinion, hoaxes. This case has been highly 210 00:17:22.960 --> 00:17:27.960 controversial since the first video emerged in January and is likely to remain so. 211 00:17:29.039 --> 00:17:34.160 Yes, definitely amongst cheer as well. It's a tough one. I mean, 212 00:17:34.440 --> 00:17:41.880 I have some doubts honestly about it because the patterns and I just it's 213 00:17:41.920 --> 00:17:45.960 not like regular sightings where they're posted and you hear from the witnesses and people 214 00:17:47.440 --> 00:17:53.279 the witnesses are talking about their videos, and this one just seemed very staged. 215 00:17:53.519 --> 00:17:59.599 And you have, like the last video that came out when the person 216 00:17:59.640 --> 00:18:03.200 released, they created a new YouTube for it, and then they have this 217 00:18:03.319 --> 00:18:08.400 bombastic kind of introduction and ending to it that lasts longer than their video. 218 00:18:08.640 --> 00:18:12.799 Right, I mean, who sees a genuine UFO is going to go edit 219 00:18:12.839 --> 00:18:18.119 it all together with this text and then this with this music and create a 220 00:18:18.119 --> 00:18:22.640 whole production around their sighting. That doesn't seem to make sense to me. 221 00:18:22.880 --> 00:18:26.160 No, there have been many red flags with this whole case. But yeah, 222 00:18:26.319 --> 00:18:29.720 so some people say, well they mix in fakes with reels. I 223 00:18:29.720 --> 00:18:33.680 don't know, I don't know. In other news, the New Zealand Defense 224 00:18:33.799 --> 00:18:40.480 Force, also known as NZDF released the last three volumes of their nearly sixty 225 00:18:40.559 --> 00:18:47.480 years worth of UFO UFO files last week. However, the NZDF prefers the 226 00:18:47.559 --> 00:18:52.759 term UAS unidentified aerial sightings, but the NZDF will no longer accept UFO reports 227 00:18:52.880 --> 00:18:56.480 or keep files on them, according to TV three in New Zealand, the 228 00:18:56.599 --> 00:19:02.759 NZDF released a statement last week stating quote, the NZDF does not have any 229 00:19:02.839 --> 00:19:07.960 role or expertise in the respect of uas, nor does it devote any resources 230 00:19:07.960 --> 00:19:11.519 to record or investigate them, and it has no evidence to substantiate the existence 231 00:19:11.559 --> 00:19:17.640 of these alleged phenomena. In quote, the NZDF is advising UFO witnesses to 232 00:19:17.680 --> 00:19:22.680 contact police with their citing reports. The newly released files joined them more more 233 00:19:22.680 --> 00:19:26.400 than two thousand pages of UFO files that were released back in December. Yeah, 234 00:19:26.440 --> 00:19:30.319 it's interesting. They kind of did like Britain. They released some files 235 00:19:30.839 --> 00:19:33.759 and then say, you know, we're we're not investigating any of this stuff. 236 00:19:34.079 --> 00:19:38.519 We don't think there's anything to it, even though some of their cases 237 00:19:38.559 --> 00:19:42.279 too are pretty interesting. They've got some great cases in there, and as 238 00:19:42.319 --> 00:19:47.720 we pointed out when they initially released the files in December, it's fascinating to 239 00:19:47.799 --> 00:19:52.119 read through some of their correspondents to see how courteous they were to Absolutely everybody 240 00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:56.799 we sent them information, sent them questions, they would write back these very 241 00:19:56.839 --> 00:20:02.400 pleasant letters or pleasant email, thank you so much for your information. Feel 242 00:20:02.480 --> 00:20:04.720 very nice about the whole thing. Yeah, very professional. They've been very 243 00:20:04.759 --> 00:20:08.160 courteous. It's unfortunate they didn't take them a little more serious, although maybe 244 00:20:08.160 --> 00:20:12.720 they do behind the scenes. We'll ask our guests about this. Absolutely, 245 00:20:14.039 --> 00:20:17.319 and it was it seemed kind of strange that they came out with a statement 246 00:20:17.440 --> 00:20:21.519 saying we're done, we don't have any information, we don't know anything. 247 00:20:22.799 --> 00:20:26.519 Yeah, sort of leave us alone, leave us alone, which doesn't seem 248 00:20:26.559 --> 00:20:30.079 like, just like when we talked about the British, doesn't seem responsible that 249 00:20:30.160 --> 00:20:33.359 they would not want to hear about strange things flying around in their skies, 250 00:20:33.440 --> 00:20:37.880 right, because that discourages someone who might see, you know, a foreign 251 00:20:38.359 --> 00:20:45.000 an object that's made from foreign technology, coming to check them out. Ole 252 00:20:45.079 --> 00:20:48.200 hunter, I've got some entertainment news for you. Great singer Katie Perry believed 253 00:20:48.200 --> 00:20:52.640 in extraterrestrial life. The pop singer just debuted the video for her song et, 254 00:20:53.400 --> 00:20:57.160 the most recent number one single off her latest record. When discussing the 255 00:20:57.240 --> 00:21:02.160 video with MTV News, Perry stated, quote, it's very difficult for me 256 00:21:02.240 --> 00:21:04.400 to look up in the sky in the middle of the night and not think 257 00:21:04.440 --> 00:21:08.319 that our planet is one of And here's where she quotes you. I think 258 00:21:08.319 --> 00:21:15.200 Alejandro one of a bajillion. She used bajillion, and that made me think 259 00:21:15.240 --> 00:21:19.319 of you. Her interest in outer space is so great that she and her 260 00:21:19.400 --> 00:21:23.279 husband, Russell Brand have purchased tickets for a virgin galactic space flight. Yep, 261 00:21:23.920 --> 00:21:27.640 so they're on their way to space. Yeah, but what she fails 262 00:21:27.680 --> 00:21:36.079 to realize is that it's actually a trillion bajillion. So she's got she's almost 263 00:21:36.119 --> 00:21:40.640 there. She just which would just blow her mind that it's actually a trillion, 264 00:21:41.799 --> 00:21:47.000 But some people say a trillion zillion, bajillion bajillion. That's a lot, 265 00:21:47.079 --> 00:21:48.200 man. I'll need you to write that down for me next time, 266 00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:52.559 because I lose track of my zeros. Here takes a long time to write 267 00:21:52.559 --> 00:21:56.200 out all those zeros. But all hunter she did say that she is extremely 268 00:21:56.279 --> 00:22:00.960 fascinated in the subject and is drawn to anything related to it. So you 269 00:22:00.039 --> 00:22:04.200 need to give her our magazine. Oh I should, and then she's going 270 00:22:04.279 --> 00:22:07.799 to be flying up there with Bert Rattan. I guess yeah, that's so 271 00:22:07.920 --> 00:22:11.440 cool. So miss Katie Perry, if you're listening Openminds dot TV, We've 272 00:22:11.440 --> 00:22:15.200 got a great magazine. Check it out. We'll even send you a free 273 00:22:15.200 --> 00:22:19.559 copy. You'll love it. Also in entertainment news, Sigourney we Ever believed 274 00:22:19.559 --> 00:22:25.000 the extraterrestrials, the actress who was famous for her role as Ellen Ripley in 275 00:22:25.039 --> 00:22:29.559 the Alien movie franchise, recently told the German magazine quote, we are not 276 00:22:29.640 --> 00:22:33.480 alone in the universe. I think there's a department in our government which is 277 00:22:33.519 --> 00:22:37.880 exclusively dedicated to quashing reports about aliens. And that's so unfair. It would 278 00:22:37.920 --> 00:22:41.400 be nice if we weren't just able to read about it in the tabloids. 279 00:22:41.960 --> 00:22:47.200 That's kind of cool. Yeah, it's one of the things that results from 280 00:22:47.279 --> 00:22:51.599 all of these movies, which is great because then the actors are actresses. 281 00:22:51.640 --> 00:22:52.839 In this case, she was in Paul, so they asked her, well, 282 00:22:52.839 --> 00:22:57.960 do you believe in aliens? And obviously she had this response. Earlier, 283 00:23:00.440 --> 00:23:03.160 La the lead guy, was asked on Jay leno you've seen a UFO. 284 00:23:03.240 --> 00:23:07.079 He says yes. The next guest comes out, Christy Brinkley. She 285 00:23:07.119 --> 00:23:11.960 says, I saw UFO two, and then we have the Sammy Hagary thing. 286 00:23:11.000 --> 00:23:14.680 We got Katy Perry. We're gonna see a lot of it all Hunter. 287 00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:18.079 I mean, we pointed out before the explosion of these Hollywood movies about 288 00:23:18.119 --> 00:23:22.559 the topic we have, and we've got huge pop stars singing about it, 289 00:23:23.119 --> 00:23:26.839 you know, And you're exactly right. They go on these TV shows, 290 00:23:26.920 --> 00:23:30.160 do their their press circuits and the topic comes out the questions, and you 291 00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:34.400 get more and more people because right now it's popular and you've got everybody else 292 00:23:34.440 --> 00:23:37.480 doing it, so they're not afraid to go on a show and say, 293 00:23:37.480 --> 00:23:40.720 oh yeah, I believe in aliens. It's great. They feel more comfortable 294 00:23:40.799 --> 00:23:44.160 doing it because then the public, of course, is going to feel more 295 00:23:44.240 --> 00:23:48.720 comfortable. That's absolutely right, which is great, yep, because then people 296 00:23:48.759 --> 00:23:52.200 who didn't even believe It's like in high school when the star said something, 297 00:23:52.319 --> 00:23:55.519 you're like, no, you were saying you didn't believe that last week, 298 00:23:55.559 --> 00:24:00.680 and now you change your mind just because Katy Perry will I think she's probably 299 00:24:00.759 --> 00:24:03.519 right. I didn't think about it. Oh, you're right. It does 300 00:24:03.640 --> 00:24:07.799 open people up a lot. Yep. Yeah, Well, Alejandra, that 301 00:24:07.880 --> 00:24:11.759 is it for the news for today, my friend, be sure to check 302 00:24:11.759 --> 00:24:15.000 out these stories and more. Openminds dot tv your source for UFO related news. 303 00:24:15.359 --> 00:24:18.400 I am your Open Minds correspondent, Jason McClellan, and you've been briefed 304 00:24:18.599 --> 00:24:22.920 back to you, doctor Alejandro. Thank you, Jason. But I'm not 305 00:24:22.960 --> 00:24:29.519 a doctor. Yes you are. You're an honorary doctor, doctor who doctor 306 00:24:29.759 --> 00:24:33.519 Detroit. No, I'm not an honor I wish I were. Actually, 307 00:24:33.519 --> 00:24:37.559 you're right coast to coast at one time said I'd be an honorary coast doctor. 308 00:24:37.680 --> 00:24:41.079 That's why I call you doctor Aleandro. I forgot about that. That's 309 00:24:41.200 --> 00:24:47.160 we'd welcome. Thanks buddy, So thank you Jason for the news. Other 310 00:24:47.319 --> 00:24:52.920 news around open Minds. We have posted some pretty pretty cool stories lately. 311 00:24:52.960 --> 00:24:57.240 In fact, one of them that we posted earlier this week was about disshaped 312 00:24:57.359 --> 00:25:06.720 UFO citing over crocou Poland there is a really cool website that is doing UFO 313 00:25:06.880 --> 00:25:14.359 research. The website is called Infra kind of like infrared Infra. Dot org 314 00:25:14.440 --> 00:25:18.359 dot pl is a Polish site that's keeping track of UFO sidings and they had 315 00:25:18.359 --> 00:25:23.000 some cool ones on March eighth and March ninth, each day, they had 316 00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:30.720 two sightings near Krockout and the object in all four of these separate sightings, 317 00:25:30.279 --> 00:25:36.480 which mostly had multiple usually had two or three people witnessing these objects. There 318 00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:41.200 were large metallic disc shaped objects, so very cool, of course, the 319 00:25:41.359 --> 00:25:48.559 common type of thing that people say or see, the most popular type of 320 00:25:48.640 --> 00:25:53.279 UFO scene, which is just so very interesting. In fact, in one 321 00:25:53.319 --> 00:26:00.599 case, the gentleman thought that he was essentially driving with his kids, one 322 00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:03.759 of his kids. He saw this thing while he was driving. It was 323 00:26:03.799 --> 00:26:06.920 going to come over the car, so he stopped and he took a look, 324 00:26:06.960 --> 00:26:10.680 and he watched this thing as it flew over. It was fifty feet 325 00:26:10.759 --> 00:26:15.160 in diameter, and he says it was only maybe one hundred to one hundred 326 00:26:15.200 --> 00:26:19.960 and fifty feet off the ground. And like in Mars attacks or something, 327 00:26:21.000 --> 00:26:26.640 you know, this thing was slowly rotating around its axis as it spun. 328 00:26:26.839 --> 00:26:30.559 Other people saw similar type of things. Someone later in the day, just 329 00:26:30.599 --> 00:26:36.759 a couple hours later, this thing had red lights all along its rim. 330 00:26:37.000 --> 00:26:44.400 Another one said that she had noticed some lights and she thought it was possibly 331 00:26:44.400 --> 00:26:48.079 a helicopter, but she noticed that it wasn't. It was a ring of 332 00:26:48.119 --> 00:26:52.480 white lights. There was someone else who saw a ring of lights, and 333 00:26:52.839 --> 00:26:59.680 her comment was interesting because she thought the middle of this thing was really dark, 334 00:27:00.119 --> 00:27:03.200 darker than night, she said, although she could see a couple lights 335 00:27:03.279 --> 00:27:07.680 inside of that thing. So we have this story up with some of the 336 00:27:07.759 --> 00:27:12.160 drawings that the people had seen. Also, some of these people thought that 337 00:27:12.200 --> 00:27:18.119 some of these sightings were near a Belie airport in Krocaule. Hopefully I'm saying 338 00:27:18.160 --> 00:27:22.319 that right, and that's why at first they thought they were planes. And 339 00:27:22.680 --> 00:27:26.000 the investigators note that these people are used to seeing planes coming out of that 340 00:27:26.160 --> 00:27:32.279 airport, so they're savvy UFO or skywatcher, so they know what planes look 341 00:27:32.359 --> 00:27:34.839 like and they know when something is not a plane. So you can read 342 00:27:34.920 --> 00:27:41.920 all of that and English summarized on our website. Or actually they had provided 343 00:27:41.960 --> 00:27:47.799 a link that I had received from one of our listeners in a translated Google 344 00:27:47.880 --> 00:27:56.240 Translate, so you can kind of read the more not so translated English on 345 00:27:56.400 --> 00:28:00.640 there. So it's very interesting sightings from Poland. Also, Michael Strap posted 346 00:28:00.680 --> 00:28:06.680 a story on our website that was very interesting called Lunar high Strangeness. And 347 00:28:06.839 --> 00:28:11.680 here again when people ask why don't astronomers see UFOs, here's another case in 348 00:28:11.720 --> 00:28:15.640 which an astronomer did see a UFO. However, this was a sighting in 349 00:28:15.759 --> 00:28:23.240 eighteen twelve in France Francois Arago Arajoh, if I had Antonio, he can 350 00:28:23.319 --> 00:28:29.640 help me. Well, Marian speaks some French. Francois Arajo. Anyways, 351 00:28:29.680 --> 00:28:33.079 he was a famous astronomer. He saw when he was looking at the Moon 352 00:28:34.039 --> 00:28:41.400 some seven disshaped objects flying around the Moon. So a very interesting sighting from 353 00:28:41.440 --> 00:28:45.960 way back when, back in eighteen seventy seven, there was others who had 354 00:28:45.240 --> 00:28:51.680 believe they saw a configure of configuration of lights in a crater, and then 355 00:28:52.799 --> 00:29:02.279 the curator for the Darling Observatory in Duluth, Minnesota also'shat a sighting and 356 00:29:02.400 --> 00:29:08.200 what something like nineteen forty nineteen fifty four where he thought he saw a black 357 00:29:08.359 --> 00:29:17.279 line, so some kind of large black kind of rod flying across or moving 358 00:29:17.319 --> 00:29:22.000 across the surface of the Moon. So some very interesting sighting reports. And 359 00:29:22.039 --> 00:29:26.920 as always what Michael does is illustrate these. Since he's a draftsman, he 360 00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:33.200 kind of takes pictures of those areas of the Moon and then superimposes a three 361 00:29:33.279 --> 00:29:37.359 D model of what the witnesses had explained. So very cool picture so check 362 00:29:37.359 --> 00:29:41.799 that out. All of this is on the front page of Openminds dot TV. 363 00:29:44.480 --> 00:29:48.400 However, we do have our guests on the phone, so let's go 364 00:29:48.480 --> 00:29:53.839 ahead and talk with doctor John Alexander. Hello, are you there? We 365 00:29:53.839 --> 00:29:57.160 were here? All right? Great? Well, I'm really excited to have 366 00:29:57.200 --> 00:30:03.680 you on the show. Thank you so much for being on. Still there? 367 00:30:04.759 --> 00:30:07.680 Yes, okay, great, Well, a couple of questions. You 368 00:30:07.680 --> 00:30:14.599 had your book come out recently, UFOs Misconspiracies and Realities, and I had 369 00:30:14.640 --> 00:30:18.039 talked a little earlier about your forward, the commentary and the introduction that you 370 00:30:18.079 --> 00:30:22.920 had Jack Ballet, Tom Clancy, Bert Rittan. Had you known all of 371 00:30:22.920 --> 00:30:29.480 these people prior to writing your book. Oh yes, I've them for a 372 00:30:29.480 --> 00:30:33.119 long time. Tom had done forward. What he did to the One for 373 00:30:33.200 --> 00:30:37.119 Future War was the only one he'd ever done before that. Half. I've 374 00:30:37.119 --> 00:30:42.720 known a Shock for decades and I've known Bert a couple of decades as well. 375 00:30:45.160 --> 00:30:48.720 Now, do you know, if let's go at least with Tom Clancy 376 00:30:48.200 --> 00:30:56.400 does how does he feel about the UFO subject? Well, he has moved 377 00:30:56.440 --> 00:31:03.279 over time. I think initially thought we were kind of crazy. We had 378 00:31:03.279 --> 00:31:07.200 a couple of discussions on far Off topics, and I was in his apartment 379 00:31:07.400 --> 00:31:12.559 in Baltimore, overlooked in the Bay, and his comment was, Alexander, 380 00:31:12.720 --> 00:31:15.519 if you weren't from Los Almos, I'd throw your ass out of here. 381 00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:26.279 And now he's obviously changed and you know, modestly supportive, skeptical in many 382 00:31:26.319 --> 00:31:32.240 areas of course, but at least open enough to write some commentary in your 383 00:31:32.279 --> 00:31:37.920 book. So that's pretty cool. And then Bert Rittan, what about his 384 00:31:38.279 --> 00:31:45.880 his feelings about UFOs. Well, that was kind of surprising because I didn't 385 00:31:45.880 --> 00:31:48.799 know Bert. I'd asked him for a blurb, you know, which is 386 00:31:48.839 --> 00:31:52.599 basically, this is good stuff, read the book, and instead he came 387 00:31:52.640 --> 00:31:56.640 in and, as you know, wrote several pages and said he wanted to 388 00:31:56.640 --> 00:32:04.240 clarify some things. And in that I we had discussed inciting previously, but 389 00:32:04.359 --> 00:32:07.720 that was almost a private thing. He had never you know, talked about 390 00:32:07.759 --> 00:32:13.160 that in the general public. There were a few friends that he knew were 391 00:32:13.240 --> 00:32:16.759 interested in the topic that he would mention his sighting to. So for him, 392 00:32:16.920 --> 00:32:23.920 you know, because this guy was a giant in aerospace, holds many 393 00:32:23.960 --> 00:32:30.880 many awards, and it's gonna be very hard for skeptics to take on somebody 394 00:32:30.880 --> 00:32:37.920 with his kind of reputation. Right, at what point, then, did 395 00:32:37.960 --> 00:32:47.039 you become interested in the phenomenon so long before you were born most of your 396 00:32:47.079 --> 00:32:54.480 audience, I got interested in the mid forties forty seven, is the story 397 00:32:54.599 --> 00:33:02.240 started to emerge them and it was already sort of interested in space and science 398 00:33:02.359 --> 00:33:08.799 fiction, Robert Heindline and the Light, so it was kind of a natural 399 00:33:08.839 --> 00:33:14.599 adjunct. Now, were you skeptical at any time or did you feel that 400 00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:19.880 by following some of the incredible reports and investigations that were going on in the 401 00:33:19.880 --> 00:33:23.039 forties and the fifties, that there was some credibility to the subject. Did 402 00:33:23.039 --> 00:33:28.319 you feel that it was credible the entire time? Well, I think I 403 00:33:28.359 --> 00:33:31.119 am a skeptic, and I think most of the stuff we hear in the 404 00:33:31.200 --> 00:33:37.400 UFO community is patent nonsense and unfortunately crazy self. So the crazier the story, 405 00:33:38.079 --> 00:33:45.000 you know, the more play it's getting. But there remains a hardcore 406 00:33:45.519 --> 00:33:52.960 of cases that just defy explanation. And my argument has been, you know, 407 00:33:53.119 --> 00:33:58.559 very simple and laid down the book. A phenomena are real, at 408 00:33:58.599 --> 00:34:01.920 least some of them are. It'd be the whatever it is, it's terribly 409 00:34:02.039 --> 00:34:07.519 complex. It's not going to be a simple answer. And most importantly, 410 00:34:07.599 --> 00:34:14.280 what we need to do is to make it viable for incredible scientists to investigate 411 00:34:14.360 --> 00:34:20.719 these things without risk of you know, losing their reputation and possibly their career. 412 00:34:22.199 --> 00:34:23.880 I definitely want to get more into that. I think you have some 413 00:34:24.320 --> 00:34:31.440 great insights on how people can move forward to help the field move forward in 414 00:34:31.519 --> 00:34:35.760 the conventional arenas. But I wanted to also ask, you know, when 415 00:34:35.800 --> 00:34:38.719 you were interested in watching the whole thing, what were some of the early 416 00:34:38.840 --> 00:34:45.760 cases that really fascinated you. Well, I mean the first one. I 417 00:34:45.760 --> 00:34:52.280 mean, this goes back to can Arnold of course, and those sorts of 418 00:34:52.360 --> 00:34:57.360 things. I'd say Rosweld, but actually Roswell did not break for many years 419 00:34:57.480 --> 00:35:02.639 after that, I mean, but the initial but just that there were sightings 420 00:35:02.679 --> 00:35:07.440 that were coming in, and I'd read most of the popular books at the 421 00:35:07.519 --> 00:35:15.920 time and including some that would probably be a fiction of that, but there 422 00:35:15.960 --> 00:35:22.039 was only very very interesting cases they really I don't think until much later that 423 00:35:22.159 --> 00:35:28.000 I got into it and started sorting out, Okay, what looks like is 424 00:35:28.039 --> 00:35:31.719 hard stands up to you know, scrutiny, and how much of this are 425 00:35:31.760 --> 00:35:39.079 we just you know, relying on people talking about what happened and what they 426 00:35:39.119 --> 00:35:44.159 saw. Well, many of them I still believe were credible, but you 427 00:35:44.199 --> 00:35:47.920 know, it's very hard to verify those sorts of things. And what's happened 428 00:35:49.000 --> 00:35:55.079 now is as our sensor systems have increased and you just have and I don't 429 00:35:55.119 --> 00:35:59.960 know, the skeptics cringe at this because there's no evidence, so let's just 430 00:36:00.119 --> 00:36:04.519 simply not true. There are many, many cases. We know, lots 431 00:36:04.559 --> 00:36:09.840 of radar cases, trace sightings, satellites do pick them up, and all 432 00:36:09.880 --> 00:36:16.960 of these things can be correlated with highly credible witnesses. And you know, 433 00:36:17.159 --> 00:36:22.719 some of those cases, for instance, Lannie's a more case of a landing 434 00:36:22.760 --> 00:36:25.079 that I know is important for a lot of the scientists back then. How 435 00:36:25.119 --> 00:36:30.440 do you feel about that case. It's a pretty solid case. That's one 436 00:36:30.480 --> 00:36:37.679 where they actually had metal scrapings indentations on the ground. He certainly stood up 437 00:36:37.719 --> 00:36:45.239 to scrutiny for a long period. The you know, did not have any 438 00:36:45.280 --> 00:36:51.440 good alternatives other than this was a really strange sighting. Interestingly, in the 439 00:36:51.480 --> 00:36:55.039 book, one of the things I've talked about is another sighting. It happened 440 00:36:55.039 --> 00:37:01.199 about the same time. Nobody's ever heard this before, and I learned of 441 00:37:01.280 --> 00:37:06.320 it purely accidentally. One of the things I recommend the people is, you 442 00:37:06.360 --> 00:37:12.800 know, talk to your friends. And was a cocktail party and started talking 443 00:37:12.840 --> 00:37:17.639 to this guy and I didn't know that well, but we had some mantermediaries 444 00:37:17.760 --> 00:37:21.719 we did. And he goes, oh, well, he grew up in 445 00:37:21.719 --> 00:37:24.400 the area. And you know, they're driving down the road. He's a 446 00:37:24.400 --> 00:37:29.400 little kid, and this UFO comes and hovers kind of above them and then 447 00:37:29.639 --> 00:37:36.440 goes and sits down off of what was in the infamous forty and you go 448 00:37:36.719 --> 00:37:39.159 like, wow, there's in little of the things I point out in the 449 00:37:39.159 --> 00:37:45.199 book and I want people to take away is to start cataloging these things. 450 00:37:45.599 --> 00:37:50.599 I'd say for every case that we know about, there's probably ten, if 451 00:37:50.639 --> 00:37:55.480 not one hundred, that you've never heard of, right, especially from like 452 00:37:55.599 --> 00:38:02.519 you say, when you talk to colleagues or coworkers, family members, just 453 00:38:02.599 --> 00:38:06.719 simply by asking or bringing up the subject, you find that a lot more 454 00:38:06.760 --> 00:38:09.440 people have had sightings. And at least for that's been the case for most 455 00:38:09.440 --> 00:38:13.239 people I've talked to you, they find a lot more people have sightings and 456 00:38:13.320 --> 00:38:19.079 they had known before. Well. I think that's absolutely true. And of 457 00:38:19.119 --> 00:38:22.320 course the issue is you know, we've made a kind of taboo, and 458 00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:28.440 you know, people are worried about, you know, their reputation. Sometimes 459 00:38:28.480 --> 00:38:32.800 they'll talk a little to their family. I used about four cases in the 460 00:38:32.800 --> 00:38:39.199 front of the book involving my brothers, and nobody outside of a handful of 461 00:38:39.239 --> 00:38:44.760 people have ever heard of those sorts of things. Nor do they want to 462 00:38:44.800 --> 00:38:49.519 step forward and you know, get into this frame, you know, wilst 463 00:38:49.719 --> 00:38:52.920 we're worried about their reputation. Right, Yeah, anybuddy, it was kind 464 00:38:52.920 --> 00:39:00.599 of funny who it wasn't until he was much older, retired where and he 465 00:39:00.039 --> 00:39:04.039 really didn't want to bring it up with his family, and he had mentioned 466 00:39:04.079 --> 00:39:07.199 something and one of his brothers took him aside and said, yeah, you 467 00:39:07.239 --> 00:39:08.639 know, when I was a teenager, I had a siding and you know, 468 00:39:08.719 --> 00:39:12.440 I've been dying to tell someone in the family but was afraid to. 469 00:39:12.599 --> 00:39:16.239 So they both had felt this way for decades and decades. They were a 470 00:39:16.280 --> 00:39:22.159 close family and hadn't shared this story with each other till and later and later 471 00:39:22.239 --> 00:39:27.400 on in their years. Well hopefully that's you know, that's where I want 472 00:39:27.440 --> 00:39:31.760 to go with this and make that shage. Now I'm specifically interested in being 473 00:39:31.800 --> 00:39:37.760 able to get professional people involved without dangers of their career, but a bot 474 00:39:37.760 --> 00:39:42.599 of be true for the general public as well, that the awful lot of 475 00:39:42.599 --> 00:39:45.679 stuff out there, and it doesn't it now, you know, to be 476 00:39:45.719 --> 00:39:51.320 honest, I love these had prosaic answers, and you know you can sort 477 00:39:51.320 --> 00:39:54.800 of figure that out. The point is when you get done, you know, 478 00:39:54.800 --> 00:39:59.079 at the end of the day there are certain ones that you just can't 479 00:39:59.239 --> 00:40:05.000 explain. So eventually your interest. You know, while you were in the 480 00:40:05.159 --> 00:40:13.079 army, you put together a group of people and intelligence, very informed people 481 00:40:13.159 --> 00:40:19.000 who worked in various departments that have access to information where you all could kind 482 00:40:19.000 --> 00:40:23.440 of investigate just how much the government knows. Did you feel there was a 483 00:40:23.559 --> 00:40:31.960 lot of secrets being held back, possibly an organization heading up the UFO secrecy 484 00:40:31.960 --> 00:40:37.159 when you began this investigation, Well, when we started, we heard the 485 00:40:37.239 --> 00:40:43.960 rumors like everybody else, and frankly expected, as I quite it there to 486 00:40:43.960 --> 00:40:49.119 get our hands slapped the you know, I thought somebody must be minding the 487 00:40:49.199 --> 00:40:52.960 store, and lo and behold, as we got into it, that was 488 00:40:53.119 --> 00:40:59.480 just not the case. And I know that rules contrary to popular or wisdom 489 00:41:00.440 --> 00:41:07.519 wrong. It will be that that blown about it and everybody thinks somebody else 490 00:41:07.679 --> 00:41:15.039 is responsible. That's why in the book I went into fair length about how 491 00:41:15.480 --> 00:41:22.280 government really works, how things move, and can you hide some stuff some 492 00:41:22.400 --> 00:41:25.000 of the time? Yeah, can you hide some for a longer period of 493 00:41:25.039 --> 00:41:32.320 time to a degree? You know, I think somebody once that you can't 494 00:41:32.320 --> 00:41:37.960 fool all of the people all of the time. Now, what years did 495 00:41:37.039 --> 00:41:45.719 your group investigate? Don't understand the question from you know, what period of 496 00:41:45.719 --> 00:41:50.800 time were you all doing this investigating or looking into this issue? Oh, 497 00:41:51.519 --> 00:41:55.320 started in the early eighties. I'm not sure the exact time frame, because 498 00:41:55.320 --> 00:42:00.199 they were see it sort of came together. It wasn't like a precipitous event, 499 00:42:01.599 --> 00:42:07.480 and the first meeting was but it started with a lot of informal discussions 500 00:42:07.480 --> 00:42:13.159 of people from various places, and then it was kind of like, gee, 501 00:42:13.159 --> 00:42:15.519 maybe we ought to try this and see what happens, and you know, 502 00:42:15.719 --> 00:42:20.760 you yeah, we might get dinged. And that's why we were very 503 00:42:20.800 --> 00:42:27.679 careful about how we went about it initially because we did all have you know, 504 00:42:28.280 --> 00:42:35.000 very special clearances, and you know, as we got around, what 505 00:42:35.079 --> 00:42:39.239 we found is everybody basically did the rumors, and you know, when it 506 00:42:39.280 --> 00:42:45.800 got down to firsthand evidence is when it pretty much petered out, went down 507 00:42:45.840 --> 00:42:51.119 a lot of rabbit holes, right, And about when did that happen? 508 00:42:51.159 --> 00:42:55.559 When did you finally feel how long after you began your investigations that you had 509 00:42:55.599 --> 00:43:05.000 reached a fairly solid conclusion. We're all certainly let's see by the mid eighties, 510 00:43:05.199 --> 00:43:08.119 within two or three years. Now you understand I had a day job. 511 00:43:10.000 --> 00:43:15.159 I mean, this wasn't like a full time assignment or anything. The 512 00:43:15.159 --> 00:43:22.719 same thing was true for everybody else at the time. I was actually the 513 00:43:22.800 --> 00:43:28.360 name changed a little bit, became the Director of Advanced Systems, the concepts 514 00:43:28.400 --> 00:43:36.159 for Laboratory Command, and I was handling technology transition from what's called the tech 515 00:43:36.199 --> 00:43:42.800 based engineering development before that. So I had huge programs that were absolutely nothing 516 00:43:42.920 --> 00:43:49.480 to do with this topic. But what it did do was provide me insight 517 00:43:49.719 --> 00:43:54.840 and contact with many many agencies, both in the government and in the civilian 518 00:43:54.920 --> 00:44:02.519 sector that worked, particularly in aerospace and a whole wagel high technology. So 519 00:44:04.639 --> 00:44:08.480 you found that it was not necessarily then there was no kind of central agency. 520 00:44:09.360 --> 00:44:15.119 But it does appear that individuals such as the Air Force, you know, 521 00:44:15.199 --> 00:44:20.800 the army do they all seem to have their own groups that investigate this 522 00:44:22.559 --> 00:44:28.159 right didn't exist, no, So what happened was there are people who were 523 00:44:28.239 --> 00:44:34.280 interested. And this is the difference of I stress the differently in personal interest 524 00:44:34.719 --> 00:44:40.480 and institutional responsibility. And that's something that nobody in this community seems to understand 525 00:44:40.559 --> 00:44:45.840 or be willing to accept. Right. So then what happens with some of 526 00:44:45.880 --> 00:44:52.840 those cases that are investigated that For instance, Gordon Cooper says his men filmed 527 00:44:53.320 --> 00:45:00.159 a disshaped object to come in land and take off. He's told a or 528 00:45:00.239 --> 00:45:02.719 will come pick that up, and then he doesn't see or know what happened 529 00:45:02.719 --> 00:45:07.639 to it. Do you believe that happened? And if so, well, 530 00:45:09.360 --> 00:45:15.239 I know about some of the films that happened, and I know that he 531 00:45:15.719 --> 00:45:22.559 in particular had film confiscated, and it's because he was taking pictures of things 532 00:45:22.559 --> 00:45:25.519 he shouldn't have been taken, pictures of which he knew at the time, 533 00:45:27.079 --> 00:45:30.559 and I know the people who picked those up. But it wasn't the UFO 534 00:45:30.679 --> 00:45:37.639 related. What seems to happen is like most things, Gee that's interesting, 535 00:45:37.719 --> 00:45:40.679 will go and investigate it. Let me give you I think one of the 536 00:45:40.719 --> 00:45:46.880 classic examples, and that's the the missile cases, because that's an event that 537 00:45:46.960 --> 00:45:53.039 you got to say it absolutely happened. And I interviewed many of the people 538 00:45:53.079 --> 00:45:58.519 involved at the different sites who were you know, folks who were down the 539 00:45:58.599 --> 00:46:06.159 tube, people who came and repaired above ground, et cetera. And you 540 00:46:06.199 --> 00:46:12.320 know where I disagree with what should have been done is they looked at it 541 00:46:12.400 --> 00:46:15.360 and came up with, what the hell, you know, can't figure this 542 00:46:15.480 --> 00:46:22.119 out? So and then the response was sort of, well, it's never 543 00:46:22.239 --> 00:46:28.880 happened before, and if it happens again, then we'll worry about it now 544 00:46:28.960 --> 00:46:31.719 in a reality, I mean, and this is another thing that people are 545 00:46:31.760 --> 00:46:37.840 not familiar with is that you know, most of these agencies are just getting 546 00:46:37.920 --> 00:46:40.599 eaten up on a day to day basis. It's not like they haven't got 547 00:46:40.639 --> 00:46:45.320 things to do. And you know, there was a Cold War on and 548 00:46:45.519 --> 00:46:52.719 very freshing sorts of things that required a huge amount of attention. So anything 549 00:46:52.840 --> 00:46:59.960 like this is a distraction. And that's basically how common and you know blue 550 00:47:00.039 --> 00:47:04.199 Book that it's to my eyes, it was a distraction. It was not 551 00:47:04.320 --> 00:47:09.519 a good thing to do. And I've met very few people who would say 552 00:47:09.760 --> 00:47:17.280 association with UFOs and the government is a good thing, not career enhancing. 553 00:47:20.199 --> 00:47:24.119 So and you get this sense from Brenton to Rupelt's book, who wrote about, 554 00:47:24.199 --> 00:47:28.639 you know, being in charge of blue Book, that it was more 555 00:47:28.679 --> 00:47:31.239 of they don't want the headache, They don't want to touch it or deal 556 00:47:31.280 --> 00:47:38.920 with it because the association and it's distracting them from what their real duties are. 557 00:47:40.480 --> 00:47:45.440 Yeah, the Department of Defense does defense. We deal with threats, 558 00:47:45.320 --> 00:47:53.280 and we are overwhelmed with threats on a continuous basis. So anything like this 559 00:47:53.519 --> 00:47:59.679 was just, like I said, a distraction of resources in the public's mind. 560 00:47:59.800 --> 00:48:04.039 You know, they thought blue Book was some big comprehensive program and studied 561 00:48:04.159 --> 00:48:07.679 UFOs and stuff's written up like that. But once you find out it was 562 00:48:07.800 --> 00:48:15.679 pretty haphazard. And you know, they had liaison opposites at the bases who 563 00:48:15.719 --> 00:48:20.960 were required to you know, be there and take reports, but they had 564 00:48:20.960 --> 00:48:28.760 a lot of discretion as to which reports got even forwarded to blue Book headquarters, 565 00:48:29.119 --> 00:48:35.440 which was very, very small five people. And I used Bill Coleman's 566 00:48:35.679 --> 00:48:40.719 case. Here was a colonel who had a remarkable sighting I mean, chasing 567 00:48:40.719 --> 00:48:45.119 the UFO across the ground so low that it's you know, kind of dust 568 00:48:45.159 --> 00:48:50.079 as it goes along the fields, and then this goes on for quite a 569 00:48:50.079 --> 00:48:54.639 while, multiple witnesses, et cetera, goes back, makes a report when 570 00:48:54.639 --> 00:49:02.079 he got back to Greenville, and then later when he became the you know, 571 00:49:02.400 --> 00:49:08.400 chief of information for the Air Force, went and looked for his own 572 00:49:08.480 --> 00:49:15.079 case and didn't find it. That's just the example where the guys just even 573 00:49:15.079 --> 00:49:21.679 though it's pretty dramatic, didn't even bother the forward gotcham okay. So then 574 00:49:23.400 --> 00:49:29.159 you don't feel then or maybe you had found this or not, that there 575 00:49:29.199 --> 00:49:35.239 were any agencies that that felt there was a genuine threat here that in other 576 00:49:35.280 --> 00:49:38.000 words, there was no threat, so we didn't have to worry about it. 577 00:49:38.039 --> 00:49:43.800 Is that how you think they felt that? That was the premise under 578 00:49:43.840 --> 00:49:47.960 which condom you know, got the work. Now people also think that, 579 00:49:49.199 --> 00:49:52.519 you know, the common report was a good thing, or what was known 580 00:49:52.559 --> 00:49:58.119 as the Colorado Study. Reality is, they tried to get several institutions to 581 00:49:58.639 --> 00:50:02.840 you know, undertake the study and they just refused. They didn't even didn't 582 00:50:02.880 --> 00:50:08.880 even want to touch it for fear of this contamination just by you know, 583 00:50:09.000 --> 00:50:15.639 guilt by association, and final the University of Colorado agreed to take it out. 584 00:50:15.280 --> 00:50:21.280 I don't thing is any doubt from the get go uh and certainly with 585 00:50:21.480 --> 00:50:25.920 Condon himself, it was you know, get get this out of our hair. 586 00:50:27.800 --> 00:50:30.840 Mm hmm. Just make it go away. And you know, if 587 00:50:30.840 --> 00:50:35.079 it's not a threat, you know, it doesn't belong to us, and 588 00:50:35.159 --> 00:50:40.639 God bless whoever happens to pick it up. So earlier you referred to Maelstrom 589 00:50:42.639 --> 00:50:46.760 and are you were referring, I'm sorry, to nuclear cases such as the 590 00:50:46.880 --> 00:50:58.360 Malstrom where nuclear missiles were affected when UFOs were nearby. And then another example 591 00:50:58.440 --> 00:51:01.880 of that, or another part possible example of that would be bent Waters, 592 00:51:02.039 --> 00:51:09.519 where there were American soldiers who saw UFOs and interacted with devices. Please please 593 00:51:10.039 --> 00:51:19.320 okay, Yeah, they're very unhappy. They're airmen. Air like to be 594 00:51:19.400 --> 00:51:24.320 called soldiers. The airmen out there, right, they probably did no. 595 00:51:24.719 --> 00:51:30.480 I think Bentwaters is one of the best cases that has come along. And 596 00:51:30.559 --> 00:51:35.000 again, you know, when the skeptics get involved, what they do is 597 00:51:35.079 --> 00:51:40.639 they point to misinformation about a twenty piece of one incident and the reality is 598 00:51:40.679 --> 00:51:46.079 that that went on for you know, quite a while, and in fact, 599 00:51:46.639 --> 00:51:52.159 at your conference, Chuck Halt, who was a deputy based commander, 600 00:51:52.159 --> 00:51:55.400 and they said, oh, they've now found cases that went back to seventy 601 00:51:55.480 --> 00:52:00.840 five and seventy seven, which predated this nineteen eighty k and in talking to 602 00:52:00.960 --> 00:52:07.920 somebody who was there and saying they've had sightings as recently as this winner right, 603 00:52:08.400 --> 00:52:13.400 even though there's nobody at the base. So if that's the case, 604 00:52:14.679 --> 00:52:19.760 do you think then the military was wrong to decide that there is no threat 605 00:52:19.840 --> 00:52:28.519 here? I think Condon was right. You know, weird things did not 606 00:52:28.760 --> 00:52:37.760 constitute a threat, even if their devices, I'm even if they're disabling nuclear 607 00:52:37.800 --> 00:52:45.239 devices. Well, I mean that's one that I certainly would have thought would 608 00:52:45.280 --> 00:52:50.679 have got more you know, attention. But the point was it happened once 609 00:52:51.000 --> 00:52:57.079 these were singular events. Uh did not have an answer. And the question 610 00:52:57.280 --> 00:53:00.920 is, you know, how much resources are you going to commit to trying 611 00:53:00.960 --> 00:53:05.280 to find answers to things you're probably not going to find an answer to. 612 00:53:06.000 --> 00:53:09.719 Right, And again you're back to what's eating you off day to day. 613 00:53:12.559 --> 00:53:15.840 So the secret vaults, all the secrets are actually under the rugs. They're 614 00:53:15.880 --> 00:53:22.159 being swept under the rug as opposed to any files in some government lock up. 615 00:53:23.920 --> 00:53:30.440 Well, I like the yeah, incompetence and whatnot accounts for far more. 616 00:53:30.960 --> 00:53:37.800 You know, this is one of my big points is that in general, 617 00:53:37.920 --> 00:53:44.119 the same public thinks the government's basically incompetence. You know, That's why 618 00:53:44.159 --> 00:53:47.440 we say checks in the mail, although the post office actually does a pretty 619 00:53:47.480 --> 00:53:52.559 good job. But the point is that, you know, the government can't 620 00:53:52.599 --> 00:53:58.840 get anything right except for UFOs when they get everything perfectly, and you go, 621 00:53:59.559 --> 00:54:05.400 let's just doesn't makes sense. So what people should be amazed by is 622 00:54:05.519 --> 00:54:12.920 not necessarily this big secrecy, but that what they're probably underestimating is the incompetence 623 00:54:12.960 --> 00:54:20.760 and by lack of interest. You know, you probably saw my slide. 624 00:54:21.559 --> 00:54:25.679 I had one mirror and Obama's things to do list, you know, and 625 00:54:25.920 --> 00:54:30.880 started out then you only had two wars. We've cracked that up to a 626 00:54:30.920 --> 00:54:36.039 third one. Now you got an economy that's in shambles, trying to get 627 00:54:36.360 --> 00:54:42.239 public health care through it had a housing market that was a collapsing, et 628 00:54:42.320 --> 00:54:45.599 cetera, et cetera. And then you go down your list and I got 629 00:54:45.679 --> 00:54:49.480 to I don't know, made up some number like one million, three hundred 630 00:54:49.480 --> 00:54:54.000 and eighty seven thousand, six hundred and sixteen. Worry about UFOs right, 631 00:54:54.960 --> 00:55:01.960 which is biting them? And are worse. You know, from a political 632 00:55:02.119 --> 00:55:09.000 perspective, this is a totally toxic subject. So anybody who thinks of politician 633 00:55:09.280 --> 00:55:15.400 is going to voluntarily come forward and put his name on it just got to 634 00:55:15.440 --> 00:55:21.199 be, you know, drinking their own buff water there or someone what about 635 00:55:21.280 --> 00:55:25.159 interesting? Look at what interested? Do you believe some of any of the 636 00:55:25.239 --> 00:55:29.320 presidents weren't interested? And if so, let's say close, oh, we 637 00:55:29.400 --> 00:55:35.360 know they are what they would My point and one of the issues it's amazing 638 00:55:35.519 --> 00:55:39.760 to me, and particularly since the comfort is this whole notion of disclosure seems 639 00:55:39.760 --> 00:55:45.480 to be murphing. It used to be we want, you know, the 640 00:55:45.480 --> 00:55:49.639 truth about UFOs disclosed And as you saw on my slide, and I said, 641 00:55:49.719 --> 00:55:58.039 well, disclosure happened. And for April nineteen fifty two, Harry Turman, 642 00:55:58.079 --> 00:56:00.440 the president, why didn't the White House get up? They did, 643 00:56:00.679 --> 00:56:05.679 They came out and said real thing and then not from earth by the way, 644 00:56:05.719 --> 00:56:12.239 I went and I checked the headlines for five April of that year, 645 00:56:13.239 --> 00:56:15.599 and you know what it was. I had to do with by trials in 646 00:56:15.599 --> 00:56:22.360 Czechoslovakia where they were taking on the Catholic clergy is being spies for the US. 647 00:56:22.440 --> 00:56:28.280 UFOs just didn't even make the list even then, but you had Reagan, 648 00:56:29.000 --> 00:56:37.280 Sam Carter, solom Clinton's interested other presidents. Gorbachev came out and said, 649 00:56:37.320 --> 00:56:40.119 hey, this is real. And my point was how many times they 650 00:56:40.159 --> 00:56:45.519 have to be told but it's real before you believe. Hey, maybe they 651 00:56:45.559 --> 00:56:51.320 told us it's real. Hell, what's morphing is it's not full disclosure. 652 00:56:51.639 --> 00:56:54.320 Whatever that is? That full disclosure seems to me. And you've got to 653 00:56:54.360 --> 00:57:00.760 believe whatever I do and agree with everything. Otherwise a part of the cover 654 00:57:00.880 --> 00:57:05.519 up, and of course I come down is not really much to cover up. 655 00:57:06.079 --> 00:57:08.320 Yeah, well I agree in that. I mean, especially you would 656 00:57:08.360 --> 00:57:14.760 think that the White House, uh, the politicians, they would be the 657 00:57:14.800 --> 00:57:17.840 last people to really have any real information if there is any out there. 658 00:57:21.159 --> 00:57:23.800 Well, I'll tell you what I have found. Because and a guy I 659 00:57:23.840 --> 00:57:28.159 would like to talk to is John Podesta, because he said, yeah, 660 00:57:28.199 --> 00:57:32.400 I wish you get the information up. I'd like to know what information he 661 00:57:32.519 --> 00:57:37.679 thinks is not the least if he's seen some files or something, you know, 662 00:57:37.760 --> 00:57:40.480 I'd sure like to know about it. All of the things I mentioned 663 00:57:40.880 --> 00:57:47.000 in the book is before a number of these files were released and there were 664 00:57:47.119 --> 00:57:52.960 classified you know, somewhere secret in that and I could see both the classified 665 00:57:53.079 --> 00:58:00.639 versions and the U know what was in the domain. It quite frankly with 666 00:58:00.800 --> 00:58:07.519 the public, ninety eight percent of the information was already available, and that 667 00:58:07.719 --> 00:58:13.000 it uh uh, you know, the little bit of what we call sources 668 00:58:13.000 --> 00:58:16.800 and methods that you know hadn't been released, so most of it was already 669 00:58:16.840 --> 00:58:22.599 there. But I have also found even at the highest levels and talking sitting 670 00:58:23.000 --> 00:58:29.559 with senators and other places, you would and you listen to and talk about 671 00:58:29.599 --> 00:58:34.360 the topic, and they are right at you know, it must be cleared 672 00:58:34.400 --> 00:58:38.760 for rumors, because they've certainly heard many of the same rumors that everybody else 673 00:58:38.840 --> 00:58:44.599 has. But when you start pinning them down saying where does that come from? 674 00:58:45.039 --> 00:58:51.599 Well, everybody knows, Yeah, that's true. Yeah, what about 675 00:58:51.639 --> 00:58:57.880 the gold on the internet? Yeah, goldwater and his you know, the 676 00:58:58.000 --> 00:59:05.079 LeMay comment he talks often about about him asking to see more of the secret 677 00:59:05.159 --> 00:59:07.800 rooms and LeMay telling him, hey, don't ask about that, and got 678 00:59:07.840 --> 00:59:17.000 upset with him. Well, there were things called blue rooms, and UFOs 679 00:59:17.039 --> 00:59:22.920 were not part of it. That's the problem with sitency. And now one 680 00:59:22.960 --> 00:59:28.639 of the things, my surprise in general, I come down against secrecy, 681 00:59:29.480 --> 00:59:32.360 and I have encouraged and I do encourage for anybody who's out there. And 682 00:59:32.400 --> 00:59:37.840 I made the offer in the UFOs this conspiracy and reality. If you got 683 00:59:37.840 --> 00:59:43.519 any information, if you've been told to sit down and you know, shut 684 00:59:43.599 --> 00:59:45.840 up that this is a secret, talk to me and I will help you 685 00:59:45.880 --> 00:59:50.920 get the information out. So I do think that happened to some people. 686 00:59:51.079 --> 00:59:55.320 And you know, the militia's case is a classic one where he had a 687 00:59:55.400 --> 01:00:01.800 phenomenal experience. He was they basically has said as the young aviator, if 688 01:00:01.840 --> 01:00:07.400 you talk, we're going to take your wings away. And so he didn't. 689 01:00:07.480 --> 01:00:13.760 But there does not seem to be a policy of secrecy. And again 690 01:00:13.840 --> 01:00:19.320 this is where I think the general public doesn't understand the difference between policy and 691 01:00:19.800 --> 01:00:25.360 incidents that happened. And I think there are some investigators out there who are 692 01:00:25.400 --> 01:00:30.800 winging it, who have heard the same rumors. And so it's easier to 693 01:00:30.840 --> 01:00:37.079 tell you Sadama shut up. And and if you watch I'm just watching Jesse 694 01:00:37.199 --> 01:00:42.039 Ventura tonight. He's got a new book on conspiracy. There hadn't done a 695 01:00:42.079 --> 01:00:46.159 conspiracy, didn't love But one of his points on secrecy is that you know, 696 01:00:46.280 --> 01:00:53.039 there were sixteen million documents in the government each year classified as top secret, 697 01:00:53.920 --> 01:00:59.800 and he goes, what could possibly, you know, be top secret? 698 01:01:00.239 --> 01:01:06.760 Sixteen medion documents being created each year. So yeah, the secrecy over 699 01:01:06.840 --> 01:01:13.480 classification is a huge problem. Well, I think that Richardson, for example, 700 01:01:14.000 --> 01:01:16.000 ex governor of New Mexico, had mentioned, you know, that he 701 01:01:16.079 --> 01:01:21.239 thinks the government needs to release all those their files on Roswell because they haven't. 702 01:01:21.280 --> 01:01:24.199 But he was alluded to I think something very similar to what you're saying 703 01:01:24.199 --> 01:01:31.719 in that it's an issue of over secrecy where if they were to release their 704 01:01:31.800 --> 01:01:37.760 files there, it would prove that it was something mundane and it would show 705 01:01:37.800 --> 01:01:45.760 that they did and that happened eventually. Now I will tell you, in 706 01:01:45.800 --> 01:01:52.480 my opinion, the Air Force handled the whole thing abysmally, And the problem 707 01:01:52.599 --> 01:01:53.719 is when you go back and you look. But if you want to know 708 01:01:53.840 --> 01:01:59.480 the relative level of importance that they put on us, they gave it to 709 01:01:59.519 --> 01:02:04.039 a captain, which Mason. Captains are nice people, and I was one 710 01:02:04.280 --> 01:02:09.920 one point, but this is who's free that we can you know, get 711 01:02:10.039 --> 01:02:13.960 for, you know, give up for a long period of time to go 712 01:02:14.000 --> 01:02:17.000 write this thing and make it go away. This is not a high level 713 01:02:17.000 --> 01:02:22.239 of investigation, and you start reading the things that there totally inconsistent, makes 714 01:02:22.400 --> 01:02:29.079 no sense, particularly the Dumby issue about oh that explains body, makes no 715 01:02:29.199 --> 01:02:36.000 sense whatsoever. But there were peace of it true. But again it gets 716 01:02:36.039 --> 01:02:39.719 back to how important the Air Force think it was. Certainly wasn't a general 717 01:02:40.000 --> 01:02:45.960 or even a colonel that they assigned to run the investigation and get it out. 718 01:02:46.559 --> 01:02:50.960 The only thing Weaver did was he was a spokesman when it came out. 719 01:02:52.000 --> 01:02:58.000 And you felt that the reports they released were accurate pretty much, well, 720 01:03:00.159 --> 01:03:04.159 no, I mean parts of it were, and it probably was the 721 01:03:04.239 --> 01:03:10.000 device. And if you look up Richard Miller on the on the internet, 722 01:03:10.159 --> 01:03:15.920 you can find a very convincing lecture at least to me, that he gave 723 01:03:15.239 --> 01:03:23.760 about the project and what it was. It's under a physics lecture at UC 724 01:03:24.000 --> 01:03:30.519 Berkeley describes exactly and I actually learned a lot from that, you know, 725 01:03:30.599 --> 01:03:36.199 watching his whole lectures. So why they did and why certain things were done 726 01:03:36.239 --> 01:03:42.760 as early as World War two, and again none of us related to UFOs 727 01:03:42.880 --> 01:03:47.760 at all. Now, some of the researchers would point to all of the 728 01:03:47.800 --> 01:03:54.320 witnesses that da've talked too, And how would you explain people claiming to have 729 01:03:55.760 --> 01:04:01.000 even many of them ex Military claiming to have been a part of recovery that 730 01:04:01.079 --> 01:04:08.800 included body Sure. Well, as you know, my background is Special Forces, 731 01:04:09.679 --> 01:04:14.679 which you know as green Berets. The estimate right now is that for 732 01:04:14.840 --> 01:04:20.880 every real SF out there are thirty wannabes that are out making up the stories. 733 01:04:21.760 --> 01:04:29.119 And I think that makes a lot more sense than LGM and bodies being 734 01:04:29.199 --> 01:04:32.400 hidden away and all of that. And I look for it on the other 735 01:04:32.559 --> 01:04:35.559 end. I mean, in the book, one of the things I do 736 01:04:35.599 --> 01:04:39.599 is I say, Okay, see what I is. Rather than saying it's 737 01:04:39.639 --> 01:04:45.440 not true, I say, let's suppose it's real. And let's suppose Jandro 738 01:04:45.880 --> 01:04:50.079 you're in charge. I want you to make this happen. And when you 739 01:04:50.199 --> 01:04:55.800 start putting the pieces together and try to make it happen and go like, 740 01:04:57.000 --> 01:05:03.199 I'm gonna work this, just the pieces don't fit. In other words, 741 01:05:03.760 --> 01:05:10.679 the pieces of if it were real, those pieces don't fit right. And 742 01:05:10.760 --> 01:05:13.760 one of the things like, well that's how it look. If I was 743 01:05:13.800 --> 01:05:16.199 the guy in charge of covering it up, no one would ever figure it 744 01:05:16.199 --> 01:05:21.400 out. I would cover it up. That kid, well, if you 745 01:05:21.519 --> 01:05:25.880 have an end of one, you can do that. But like they say 746 01:05:25.920 --> 01:05:30.159 in Washington, if two people know, it's not a secret, right and 747 01:05:30.800 --> 01:05:34.719 if you you know, the thing I've heard recently is well where has been 748 01:05:34.800 --> 01:05:39.440 Laudin? Then well we know about where he is. We just you know, 749 01:05:39.519 --> 01:05:42.719 he's got a lot of people protecting him. We know he's out there. 750 01:05:42.840 --> 01:05:46.360 We hear from him on a rather regular basis. You know, he's 751 01:05:46.400 --> 01:05:54.719 filmed, videos have come out or audio tapes and you know, get authenticated. 752 01:05:54.760 --> 01:05:59.639 So he certainly certainly know that he's in an area that's what we call 753 01:05:59.760 --> 01:06:04.559 on government territories. And I think that's very different from the kind of cover 754 01:06:04.679 --> 01:06:10.840 up that would be required. I mean, you end up with thousands of 755 01:06:10.920 --> 01:06:14.599 people, you know. Let me go back to where you started. Bert 756 01:06:14.679 --> 01:06:20.199 Rutan. Now Burt was a civilian, but besides that, he sat on 757 01:06:21.119 --> 01:06:28.039 the Air Force Science Board for ten years. He is the go to guy. 758 01:06:28.199 --> 01:06:32.360 He did handle a lot of very very sensitive programs for the government. 759 01:06:33.079 --> 01:06:38.320 It's like he and Ben Rich would go to guys if you want something done, 760 01:06:38.400 --> 01:06:43.639 done right and done quickly, and he would say never even hearn an 761 01:06:43.679 --> 01:06:48.280 inkling that there might have been something there, and I can tell you because 762 01:06:48.320 --> 01:06:53.920 I've been with the Army Science Board. They tend to tell you a lot 763 01:06:53.960 --> 01:06:57.639 of stuff. I mean when you get into high tech areas. Maybe not 764 01:06:57.760 --> 01:07:02.360 everything, but they tend to be really quite honest with those kinds of a 765 01:07:02.360 --> 01:07:11.960 group of people when they want, you know, scientific information passed and evaluated. 766 01:07:13.679 --> 01:07:16.599 Now that brings me to kind of another person I'd like to ask you 767 01:07:16.639 --> 01:07:19.960 about, and it gets into the m J twelve and some of the other 768 01:07:21.039 --> 01:07:27.480 mythology that has come forward about UFOs, and some of it's been generated or 769 01:07:27.519 --> 01:07:35.480 at least seemingly generated by a gentleman named Richard Doty, who was when he 770 01:07:35.679 --> 01:07:43.719 began interfacing with people in the Air Force and OSI agents. What was he 771 01:07:43.840 --> 01:07:46.679 up to? According to him, these were official things where he was releasing 772 01:07:46.719 --> 01:07:53.400 information or claiming that he had access to information that he wouldn't produce. I 773 01:07:53.440 --> 01:07:59.119 would ask, if that's accurate, why wasn't he in jail? Well, 774 01:07:59.119 --> 01:08:03.360 according to him, what they if they did what they did they said they 775 01:08:03.360 --> 01:08:13.880 did with Bennewitz, Let's go to jail. That was the crime, so 776 01:08:14.599 --> 01:08:19.880 right, giving him information just for the people we're talking about breaking and entering 777 01:08:20.159 --> 01:08:26.159 and you know things they described about going in there and trying to you know, 778 01:08:27.000 --> 01:08:30.239 you know, psychologically break him. And you know we're talking criminal acts, 779 01:08:30.319 --> 01:08:36.560 not just feeding somebody in disinformation or something like that. Don't know, 780 01:08:36.720 --> 01:08:42.840 you'll have to ask him. Yeah, well, then so you don't know 781 01:08:42.880 --> 01:08:45.479 why he would have been doing all of these things. I said, but 782 01:08:45.479 --> 01:08:51.159 it doesn't make sense to me. And I've heard the same stories you have. 783 01:08:53.039 --> 01:08:56.279 I mean, not many other rumors that I haven't heard. But this 784 01:08:56.359 --> 01:09:00.439 is what I do. I backtrack the rumors and say, what where does 785 01:09:00.479 --> 01:09:08.600 this make sense? And it doesn't. Yeh so if because you know, 786 01:09:08.680 --> 01:09:13.520 he's out there himself even making claims to having this sort of information and that 787 01:09:13.680 --> 01:09:21.680 sort of information, and so those claims most likely are just untrue, you'll 788 01:09:21.720 --> 01:09:26.399 have to ask him. Uh huh, doesn't make sense. All I say 789 01:09:26.439 --> 01:09:30.319 is it doesn't make sense to me. And at some of these claims, 790 01:09:30.319 --> 01:09:33.479 he claimed, Well, one of the things I offer is you want to 791 01:09:33.520 --> 01:09:38.439 meet, I can tell you where my SSO will pass the clearances because I'm 792 01:09:38.479 --> 01:09:43.199 still cleared. We'll go in the skiff and talk. All right. So 793 01:09:43.239 --> 01:09:46.119 then when it comes to you know, one of the rumors that he's kind 794 01:09:46.159 --> 01:09:54.800 of credited with spreading is the idea of the Majestic twelve organization kind of in 795 01:09:54.840 --> 01:10:00.159 a way the organization you were looking for back in the eighties with you your 796 01:10:00.239 --> 01:10:09.520 colleagues there and never found. I lost something in that, oh, just 797 01:10:09.680 --> 01:10:13.640 in that the Majestic twelve, which of course you're aware of. Like you 798 01:10:13.680 --> 01:10:18.359 said, you know the rumors, but you feel then that also, well 799 01:10:18.399 --> 01:10:24.640 what do you feel about those rumors? Well, I've only you know, 800 01:10:24.840 --> 01:10:30.439 I think you've seen my presentation that. Yeah, And I compare MJ twelve 801 01:10:30.600 --> 01:10:35.720 to Watergate, and you go, if you got a secret and you want 802 01:10:35.760 --> 01:10:40.560 to get it out, what do you do with it? You send it 803 01:10:40.680 --> 01:10:45.479 to some numbnuts who hasn't got any experience and no resources, And I mean, 804 01:10:45.560 --> 01:10:49.000 don't even tell them you got it. You supposely send them a role 805 01:10:49.079 --> 01:10:54.439 of film and hope they'll open it and hope they'll know what it is and 806 01:10:54.560 --> 01:10:59.079 hope that they'll do something and hope that the information will get out. Or 807 01:11:00.239 --> 01:11:04.439 do you go to the Washington Post and get vetted by Ben Bradley and all 808 01:11:04.479 --> 01:11:11.319 of them. We have massive resources who then cross correlate everything and come out 809 01:11:11.479 --> 01:11:15.199 and present the information. I'd leave it up to the public to decide. 810 01:11:15.199 --> 01:11:19.840 I suppose I say you have a secret, you want to get it out, 811 01:11:20.319 --> 01:11:25.600 how do you go about doing it? And the way this happened makes 812 01:11:26.239 --> 01:11:33.119 no sense anybody, at least to me. Yeah, so then possibly someone 813 01:11:34.079 --> 01:11:39.800 hoax this whole thing and or someone out there for some reason. Do you 814 01:11:39.800 --> 01:11:42.479 think that happens a lot? It sounds like almost. You know, with 815 01:11:42.560 --> 01:11:47.000 a lot of these stories, you don't think they're they're real. And you 816 01:11:47.039 --> 01:11:50.199 know with some of these people that they're like you talked about people claiming to 817 01:11:50.199 --> 01:11:55.800 bring green berets when they're not, which lord knows how happened with that, 818 01:11:55.920 --> 01:11:59.319 People telling fish tales and things like that. That's why, you know, 819 01:12:00.079 --> 01:12:03.119 special Forces and Seals and not we have what's called the Wall of Shame, 820 01:12:04.279 --> 01:12:09.319 and you know, we started exposing these people and you put them out. 821 01:12:09.680 --> 01:12:15.720 Seals actually have a better grasp because they had something called the Buds list and 822 01:12:15.960 --> 01:12:19.479 every seal that went through went to the basic training, and they have a 823 01:12:19.600 --> 01:12:26.439 list in Special Forces. It gets a little bit broader than that, and 824 01:12:26.680 --> 01:12:30.520 there are many more of us. But the point is, in fact, 825 01:12:30.600 --> 01:12:34.239 I just saw some interesting statistics and they were going about Vietnam. They said 826 01:12:34.279 --> 01:12:41.439 that of all the people served in Vietnam, there's at least five who are 827 01:12:41.560 --> 01:12:48.199 claiming that they were Vietnam veterans now who were never there. So and getting 828 01:12:48.239 --> 01:12:54.439 back more specific to this, I am convinced there are too many people with 829 01:12:54.560 --> 01:13:00.359 too much time on their hands. We're just you know, rolling the screw 830 01:13:00.560 --> 01:13:02.960 and one of the one of the let me get because this is closer to 831 01:13:03.000 --> 01:13:06.560 a topic that I think is really important. I don't think MJ twelve is 832 01:13:06.600 --> 01:13:15.079 important. And that's this whole area of hoaxes. Because my point is hoaxes 833 01:13:15.199 --> 01:13:19.039 are not benign. You know, they keep putting this out as if a 834 01:13:19.119 --> 01:13:24.359 whole hall, big joke. Look what we did to the people. Reality 835 01:13:24.560 --> 01:13:27.880 is it's not. Now. Let me take the one that happened to New 836 01:13:27.960 --> 01:13:31.479 Jersey a little over a year ago when they were sending the flares up and 837 01:13:31.560 --> 01:13:35.640 you go, first of all, it's really dangerous because you know, what 838 01:13:35.800 --> 01:13:39.920 goes up comes down. If the flares are still burning, you have a 839 01:13:40.039 --> 01:13:45.159 chance for fires. Say it's a social experiment, and these people get encouraged, 840 01:13:45.880 --> 01:13:47.640 you know by the skeptic you go on a skeptic website. They actually 841 01:13:48.039 --> 01:13:54.880 applauded them for this social experiment. But you're really doing is undermining credibility. 842 01:13:55.520 --> 01:14:00.039 And I think this is one of the biggest problems that you have. And 843 01:14:00.119 --> 01:14:05.439 I will ding Fife Symington, you know, the governor of your great state, 844 01:14:06.319 --> 01:14:12.600 former governor, of course. And while he later came out and said, 845 01:14:12.600 --> 01:14:15.279 oh, by the way, I actually saw this beast that they call, 846 01:14:15.760 --> 01:14:20.119 you know, the phoenix, Weiss had personally done it, and yet 847 01:14:20.279 --> 01:14:26.279 he had gone to fairly extensive lengths to make a big joke out of it, 848 01:14:27.000 --> 01:14:30.880 absolutely knowing better. And I think those things, you know, those 849 01:14:30.960 --> 01:14:38.039 kinds of actions are more detrimental than you can possibly believe, and particularly at 850 01:14:38.039 --> 01:14:44.319 a time where you know, the credibility of the government across the board is 851 01:14:45.439 --> 01:14:49.920 all time almost historic loans and for good reason. They're pretty screwed up. 852 01:14:50.479 --> 01:14:56.199 Yeah, well there again, if they're so screwed up as we believe in 853 01:14:56.199 --> 01:15:00.159 his other how is it that there's you know, I'm mission when it gets 854 01:15:00.159 --> 01:15:06.159 to unfos. Yeah. I get your point with that kind of the irony 855 01:15:06.239 --> 01:15:10.039 or the paradox in that. Okay, these guys are a bunch of idiots, 856 01:15:10.079 --> 01:15:15.319 but at the same time they're able to do this incredible task of keeping 857 01:15:15.359 --> 01:15:21.319 this gigantic secret. So there's a duality there that is kind of incongruent that 858 01:15:21.399 --> 01:15:28.840 doesn't match at least. Antonio wanted me to ask you about cash Landrum. 859 01:15:28.920 --> 01:15:32.600 He said that you had some involvement with the investigation of this case. Well, 860 01:15:32.880 --> 01:15:39.560 very minor, but yes we did. What happened cash Landrom is absolutely 861 01:15:39.640 --> 01:15:45.680 real. There's one hundred probability that that happens. Just an excellent case has 862 01:15:45.720 --> 01:15:54.560 been reviewed, I think embellished on you as we've gone along. And what 863 01:15:54.720 --> 01:16:02.319 happened was that because their helicopters were seen at the right and when the government 864 01:16:02.439 --> 01:16:09.119 got sued because these people did get irradiated and were seriously injured, one hundred 865 01:16:09.199 --> 01:16:15.159 percent sure of that. And so it went to the Air Force initially to 866 01:16:15.199 --> 01:16:18.199 get sued and they said, oops, the helicopopter as they saw were Sage 867 01:16:18.239 --> 01:16:25.239 forty sevens and we've identified those as belonging to the army. So it went 868 01:16:25.560 --> 01:16:30.079 and a friend of mine, George Sarran, who was with the DAIG Department 869 01:16:30.079 --> 01:16:34.880 of Army Inspector General, I had been working there and he knew that I 870 01:16:35.000 --> 01:16:41.680 was interested in unusual topics and there were several of us that he called in 871 01:16:41.760 --> 01:16:45.600 and he had actually done quite an excellent child going out, and it took 872 01:16:45.600 --> 01:16:50.760 the case very seriously, and the bottom line was that the helicopters weren't there. 873 01:16:51.880 --> 01:16:56.359 There was one helicopter that had been out that day. It had been 874 01:16:57.520 --> 01:17:02.760 from Fort Hood, had flown down and had landed at the time. When 875 01:17:02.760 --> 01:17:08.520 you put all the pieces together, you could do a segment just on this 876 01:17:08.640 --> 01:17:14.680 case. Put all the pieces together. You know, this is a very 877 01:17:14.760 --> 01:17:19.520 significant case, and the helicopters couldn't have been there but for some other pretty 878 01:17:19.520 --> 01:17:25.920 good reasons. You couldn't fly that long. People don't know that there were 879 01:17:26.039 --> 01:17:31.119 other sightings of the helicopters, and pretty soon you're into only were they there, 880 01:17:31.159 --> 01:17:34.600 but how long were they flying? And then you're in the refueling and 881 01:17:35.279 --> 01:17:41.720 you know, just a massive operation. And of course timing is totally suspect, 882 01:17:41.920 --> 01:17:45.159 because hey, it was the same night as one of the incidents at 883 01:17:45.239 --> 01:17:53.560 Benlewater's and anybody who was in the military knew that during particularly during that period 884 01:17:53.720 --> 01:17:58.479 quite frequently between Christmas and New Years, you just didn't do big things, 885 01:17:58.600 --> 01:18:02.760 you know, have us we were on a fifty percent we're fifty you know, 886 01:18:02.920 --> 01:18:06.960 you were working halftime and half the people were on leave and gone, 887 01:18:08.079 --> 01:18:12.199 and you know, just not the time you'd be orchestrating those things. As 888 01:18:12.199 --> 01:18:16.319 far as the test go. We got places to test unusual systems and you 889 01:18:16.359 --> 01:18:21.439 don't do it, you know, close to a major metropolitan area to catch 890 01:18:21.479 --> 01:18:27.319 people up. And you can let me know if I'm accurate here in letting 891 01:18:27.319 --> 01:18:30.640 people know. Kind of the highlights of this case is nineteen eighty December twenty 892 01:18:30.720 --> 01:18:38.439 nine, some witnesses in Texas they drive up the road and see this what 893 01:18:38.600 --> 01:18:42.520 a diamond shaped object with planes coming out of it. They get out of 894 01:18:42.560 --> 01:18:45.439 their car and look at it, but then it's extremely hot. Our car 895 01:18:45.520 --> 01:18:48.760 gets hot, some plastic starts to melt in their car, so they get 896 01:18:48.800 --> 01:18:54.840 in and they leave, and then years later they suffer some terrible no no, 897 01:18:54.840 --> 01:19:00.720 no, okay, but that's much. But what's important was that the 898 01:19:00.760 --> 01:19:06.199 injuries occurred almost immediately, and as we know from the story, this was 899 01:19:06.239 --> 01:19:14.000 really an important issue. The lens of the credibility of a radiation exposure is 900 01:19:14.119 --> 01:19:17.319 that one of the women got out, well, Corey, the little boy 901 01:19:17.359 --> 01:19:21.279 got out, ran, look, got scared, ran and jumped back in 902 01:19:21.359 --> 01:19:27.399 the car. So his overall exposure was minimal. One of them got out 903 01:19:27.439 --> 01:19:30.000 and walked in front of the car. The other one stood you know, 904 01:19:30.159 --> 01:19:33.720 opened the car door, but stood behind it, so it was blocking. 905 01:19:34.359 --> 01:19:41.000 The point was that the degree of radiation that they seem to have been exposed 906 01:19:41.039 --> 01:19:46.720 to is directly proportional to the story that they told. I mean, so 907 01:19:47.840 --> 01:19:51.680 one got a whole body radiation, one was protected, one just got the 908 01:19:51.840 --> 01:20:00.520 you know, the quick exposure and sent back so very significant. Already seeing 909 01:20:00.600 --> 01:20:04.800 helicopters and then what you were saying, probably going out to check out what 910 01:20:04.840 --> 01:20:10.640 the heck this thing was. But you're also saying because it was December twenty 911 01:20:10.720 --> 01:20:15.000 nine, because some people suspect that maybe it was a black project being tested 912 01:20:15.119 --> 01:20:18.359 or something like that. But you wouldn't be testing something during that time of 913 01:20:18.399 --> 01:20:23.640 the year, It's what you're saying, Well, you probably wouldn't do it 914 01:20:23.680 --> 01:20:27.840 then, unless you know, you didn't do some of that when we were 915 01:20:27.840 --> 01:20:32.800 getting ready to go into a wrap. It was at the National Lab. 916 01:20:32.840 --> 01:20:40.399 We actually built the system from scratch over Christmas. But that's because you were 917 01:20:40.479 --> 01:20:47.800 going to war nineteen eighty that was not happening, and you know, I 918 01:20:47.880 --> 01:20:55.960 you know, my answer gets it's almost tougher, but it says helicopters probably 919 01:20:55.960 --> 01:21:01.399 weren't there oh at all. So the question, I think people saw helicopters, 920 01:21:02.399 --> 01:21:09.479 and there were other people later who saw the helicopters as well, but 921 01:21:09.560 --> 01:21:15.319 the helicopters weren't there and it wasn't And one of the charge Serranda then was 922 01:21:15.359 --> 01:21:20.640 to go and checked the Task Force one sixties was one of those black units 923 01:21:20.680 --> 01:21:27.199 and out of Campbell known yet wasn't them checked everybody at helicopters, even the 924 01:21:27.279 --> 01:21:31.079 Marines. Uh, And but we found the Marine am previously was off of 925 01:21:31.159 --> 01:21:38.399 Florida at that time, so they weren't even close to the area. Accounted 926 01:21:38.520 --> 01:21:44.279 for every helicopter in the area. Uh, in the state of Texas, 927 01:21:44.319 --> 01:21:48.960 for hood, et cetera. You know, they were out. Everything was 928 01:21:49.000 --> 01:21:56.319 done without their log books, which aviators know you just don't do. And 929 01:21:56.800 --> 01:22:00.600 uh it uh you know. You then with what is it? You know? 930 01:22:00.800 --> 01:22:08.680 I come up with two potential solutions. One is holographs, that whatever 931 01:22:08.840 --> 01:22:12.319 of the widget was, it was there and it was real, could project 932 01:22:12.680 --> 01:22:17.520 you know, holographs. And the second one was that it has utility to 933 01:22:18.119 --> 01:22:28.159 actually interact with your mind and make you think you saw helicopters, but options, 934 01:22:30.000 --> 01:22:35.159 but but you know it offers solutions other than military helicopters being there. 935 01:22:38.279 --> 01:22:45.319 The widget you're referring to being the object that was seen. Yeah, and 936 01:22:45.760 --> 01:22:50.159 well we know we know there was something there and that it was irradiating. 937 01:22:51.760 --> 01:22:58.720 I mean that that is one hundred accurate. Yeah, Now, who do 938 01:22:58.760 --> 01:23:05.399 you think might have built this way? King at us? So you do 939 01:23:05.520 --> 01:23:11.640 believe it, think it came don't think it came from uh, you know, 940 01:23:12.079 --> 01:23:18.560 from traditional sources on this world? Gotcha? So the possibility of well 941 01:23:18.680 --> 01:23:21.399 then would you go so far? Do you believe possibly some of these are 942 01:23:21.479 --> 01:23:32.760 extraterrestrial civilizations? It's certainly not terrestrial. We get into et versus ed et 943 01:23:32.760 --> 01:23:36.039 cetera, et cetera, and I don't know. I mean, the bottom 944 01:23:36.119 --> 01:23:43.640 line in my bucket I get at the end is that no simple solution fits 945 01:23:43.720 --> 01:23:48.640 all of the observations that are seen. So there's little green guys from Zeta 946 01:23:48.720 --> 01:23:55.720 Reticula. I decide to zip down here and take a vacation. That's an 947 01:23:55.760 --> 01:24:00.960 answer what you saw. When you talk about UFOs, we talk about things 948 01:24:00.000 --> 01:24:06.479 from little balls of light to hard things that are big a mile across. 949 01:24:06.720 --> 01:24:12.840 Some guys picked up on multiple radars and all that and everything in between. 950 01:24:13.239 --> 01:24:17.680 It is that everything in between. It's disconcerting. Too many different types, 951 01:24:17.720 --> 01:24:24.159 too much ill thing. So the simple solution that you know, we're on 952 01:24:24.279 --> 01:24:30.279 the like the Hollywood starmap, we're on the you know, the vacation starmap 953 01:24:30.359 --> 01:24:35.319 for the universe or something. Got problems there, right, Well, now 954 01:24:35.319 --> 01:24:39.439 we're that we're getting towards the end of the show, and you've mentioned the 955 01:24:39.560 --> 01:24:44.920 end of the book, getting into the epilogue. Quote Vetis Vettis, I 956 01:24:44.920 --> 01:24:47.640 don't know if I'm saying it right, but where do we go from here? 957 01:24:48.039 --> 01:24:55.520 I think you have some great quote Vodis, you have some great suggestions 958 01:24:55.560 --> 01:25:00.640 for you know, the people who do believe in this phenomena on on better 959 01:25:00.720 --> 01:25:08.520 ways to approach government on this issue. Yeah. Well, one of the 960 01:25:08.520 --> 01:25:15.279 things I suggested for the government that they could do is in contrary of what 961 01:25:15.439 --> 01:25:18.720 I don't have to take on my friends Hampton. But no, Sheila Woodenhall 962 01:25:18.840 --> 01:25:25.920 really did went back and check that she did release anybody from Roswell from any 963 01:25:25.960 --> 01:25:33.119 oaths that they had. And if you had somebody like Gates or Clappers, 964 01:25:33.439 --> 01:25:40.640 who's now the director of the National Director of National Intelligence come out and just 965 01:25:40.720 --> 01:25:45.239 say the wave of wand say anybody who's been told they can't talk about UFO 966 01:25:45.399 --> 01:25:49.920 sightings is now free and clear and they can talk about it. That's a 967 01:25:50.039 --> 01:25:55.399 no cost, win win situation. Now the guys who aren't gonna win, 968 01:25:55.479 --> 01:25:59.159 there's gonna be a lot of people who can tell them stories. They're gonna 969 01:25:59.159 --> 01:26:03.560 be running for cover because they can't anymore use that I'd tell you about, 970 01:26:03.560 --> 01:26:09.720 I have to kill your response. Now, that'd be a real simple one. 971 01:26:09.760 --> 01:26:12.520 I wish they'd do it. Now. If they did that, then 972 01:26:12.760 --> 01:26:15.279 could that possibly Do you think they're afraid of getting that headache that they tried 973 01:26:15.279 --> 01:26:18.840 to get rid of before. If all of a sudden, you know, 974 01:26:19.279 --> 01:26:25.119 people are, it's just not the it's not on their scope. They just 975 01:26:25.279 --> 01:26:31.359 keep we don't even think about these things. So then they wouldn't have to 976 01:26:31.399 --> 01:26:34.720 approach that. Like I say, we're bomba and could that be? Now 977 01:26:34.840 --> 01:26:40.159 that's the third war? And you want me to worry about what now? 978 01:26:42.159 --> 01:26:45.279 And I mean, it's a joke and people don't realize that. I'm not 979 01:26:45.279 --> 01:26:50.600 sure it should be, but that's certainly the way an administration would look at 980 01:26:50.640 --> 01:26:58.920 it. Now you had some pointers, for instance, just talking about what 981 01:26:58.960 --> 01:27:04.720 the public can do. Also in interacting with politicians or government, well, 982 01:27:04.760 --> 01:27:09.000 you got to be crazy if you're a politician has touched this, and they 983 01:27:09.119 --> 01:27:13.840 used Dennis Concentis as a kind of a classic example. Don't agree much for 984 01:27:13.960 --> 01:27:16.239 his politics, but I think he's you know, he got the balls to 985 01:27:16.319 --> 01:27:19.920 stand up and say, you know, I saw someone didn't understand it. 986 01:27:19.920 --> 01:27:24.399 Would like to know what it was. But if you look at what happened, 987 01:27:24.560 --> 01:27:30.479 you know when he was there running for president, the reason for asking 988 01:27:30.560 --> 01:27:34.640 him that the presidential debate was not accidental and it was not to help him, 989 01:27:35.239 --> 01:27:40.399 right. It was seen as an overt move to just cut his legs 990 01:27:40.439 --> 01:27:47.520 out. And knowing that anybody who you know says those things positively, it's 991 01:27:47.560 --> 01:27:53.600 not a good thing. It's like I mentioned in the congressman, adult, 992 01:27:53.760 --> 01:27:59.439 can you take a twenty point hit in the polls? Right? And unfortunately, 993 01:27:59.520 --> 01:28:00.479 yeah, that's what it did to him. It did not help him, 994 01:28:00.520 --> 01:28:06.800 like you're saying it. It was designed not to help him. That 995 01:28:06.960 --> 01:28:13.119 was not an accident. It's not an issue that's brought up to help someone 996 01:28:13.239 --> 01:28:17.720 in their campaign. Well, I point out the thing with Clayburn Pell, 997 01:28:17.920 --> 01:28:21.680 whom I did know, who was you know, interested not so much in 998 01:28:21.840 --> 01:28:28.840 UFOs. Did stop biomofon meaning worms. When he died, the Washington Post 999 01:28:29.199 --> 01:28:32.840 demigrated him in his obituary. I mean, you know, how low do 1000 01:28:32.920 --> 01:28:38.479 you get? The point is, you know this stuff literally follows you to 1001 01:28:38.560 --> 01:28:42.560 your grave? All right, well, we are out of time. The 1002 01:28:42.600 --> 01:28:46.479 book is UFOs Misconspiracies and Realities. You can get it at Amazon. And 1003 01:28:46.560 --> 01:28:54.720 also your website is John B. Alexander dot com, so that's where people 1004 01:28:54.760 --> 01:28:57.800 can go and also buy the book and find out more about you. Right, 1005 01:29:00.640 --> 01:29:04.640 oh right, great. The website is yep, a lot of infos. 1006 01:29:04.720 --> 01:29:09.520 So I knew this would be a great interview. It definitely leaves someone 1007 01:29:09.680 --> 01:29:15.279 thinking a lot to think about. Thank you so much for joining us. 1008 01:29:15.520 --> 01:29:19.840 Okay, all right, we are out of time. Thanks for listening to 1009 01:29:19.880 --> 01:29:25.760 our show tonight. Next week we're gonna have trolls and tire j toptens more 1010 01:29:25.840 --> 01:29:30.079 names that I am probably pronouncing wrong. Of New Paradigm films. They did 1011 01:29:30.079 --> 01:29:33.760 the movie The Day Before Disclosure documentary that won the People's Choice Award at the 1012 01:29:33.800 --> 01:29:39.960 International UFO Congress. They're in Norway, so this is gonna be great anyway. 1013 01:29:40.000 --> 01:29:42.840 Thank you for listening to Open Minds Radio. Don't forget to voice at 1014 01:29:42.920 --> 01:29:45.760 openminds dot tv for more UFO news. Talk to you next week.