We're back with another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily edition Ski,
Culture editor here at the Federalist. As always, you can email the
show at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on Twitter at fdr
LST. Make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcasts into the premium version
of our website as well. Molly Henningway has agreed to share David Harsani,
Senior editor at The Federalist, with me today for a special edition of Federalist
Radio Hour, a Summer Friday, an edition of Federalist Radio Hour because it's
turned out to be a very big day for David Harsani, who you may
or may not know is somewhat of a true crime aficionado. So David,
first of all, welcome and secondly, can you just fill us in a
little bit on what some of the breaking news has been in the morning hours
of this summer Friday. Well, thank you, it's always a pleasure to
share my time with you. I think you have oversold me a bit as
an aficionado. I think there are certain cases like the John John Benet Ramsey
murder, for instance, where I think I am somewhat of an afficionado on
this one. My interest in the case, which is the Long Island serial
killer Gilgo Beach is more has more to do with my growing up like just
a few miles away from that place. And I guess I'll start with some
background that there were about ten years ago they found the remains of I think
ten, maybe ten or more, a few, you know, maybe twelve
something like that women. I think there was one young man's body as well
on the beach and Gilgo Beach on Long Island. Now, just explain to
people who aren't from there, because I like talking about Long Island quite a
bit. The the south shore long around has a I called them like smaller
islands or keys, I don't know what you'd call them. But there's like
Rockaway Beach which was made famous by the Ramones, and Long Long Beach and
Jones Beach, which is the really big, busy beach, and then right
next to it is Gilgo Beach where there are less people. So this is
where the bodies were found in twenty ten. But I believe they thought that
the murders had gone back a few years, maybe to nineteen ninety, I'm
not exactly sure, but maybe to nineteen ninety six something like that, or
two thousand for sure, the two mid two thousands, and they could never
find the killer. And a few years ago they they were sort of reinvigorated
the case or reopened the case and released some audio of one of the women
who went missing and stuff like that. And apparently today they arrested a man
who's the suspect. In his name, I believe his Rex Hereman or something
like that, and he's from a place called Massapequa Park, which is very
which is nearby on Long Island. I was telling David, I have a
really hard time hearing about Massapequa and not thinking of the episode of Friends.
It's it's literally called the one in Massapequa because Alec Baldwin's character is he hears
Massapequa and goes on this. I think they call him like Santa claus On
pros act this this tangent about what a magical place Massapequa must be, just
based on the lyrical name. And David then was like, well, the
Baldwin brothers are actually from Massapequa. And as I'm reading the New York Post
coverage of these the Gilgo Beach suspect Rex Herman of course they have invoked the
Baldwin brothers already. Well it's funny. So from what I gather, he's
from a place called Massapequa Park, which is basically the same thing. It's
just on the other side of a park. I'm just you know, I
don't know until you want home beach upper like Upper Montclair or something. But
yeah, So what made massi Pequa when I was growing up sort of famous,
I guess is that there was a big mall there called Sunrise Mall where
all the kids went to hang out, because that's what we did in the
eighties. But so even Jerry Seinfeld as this joke where he says that Massapequa
and Native American means like near the mall, which always makes me laugh.
But it is also known for the for the birthplace of Joey but A Fuco,
another sort of infamous long islander. So yeah, so that's where that's
where he's from. That's where the Baldwin brothers are from. And I M
not I don't know how many people will care about this. Grew up maybe
well, you know, I was born in Queensby, grew up a few
towns over from there, So that's all south Shore. It's basically like one
sprawling, giant suburb, exactly what you would imagine it, Like, you
know, there's a Massapequa, let's say, Seaford's right next door, but
no human being would be able to detect any difference between massieuit Seaford. Like
it's just one long, giant suburb. And that's where this guy, Rex
Hureman was from. Apparently it's funny because I read this piece in the Post
that said that Gilgo Beach murder suspect was weird. It says in a big
talker sources something like, isn't that everyone on Long Island? Everyone else out?
It's a big talker and weird. It's just redundant. So this guy
is apparently fifty nine years old, and it looks like he's an architect or
works at an architecture firm. So basically the point of me mentioning that is
seems to be somewhat upper class, and that's kind of interesting in and of
itself. But it also says for the bodies of four women, looks like
it was in the late two thousands, so like around two thousand and nine
twenty ten. Is that sort of the setting? Does that sound right,
Long Island, Go Go Beach, two thousand and ten. And here you
have a you know, educated, seemingly upper middle class person that's now being
implicated just from the just from what I've read, I'm going to say that,
Yeah, I mean, he's an architect. He's apparently worked in Manhattan
since nineteen eighty seventy. Is some kind of firm there's obviously, so the
north shore of Long Islands typically richer than the south shore. But don't get
me wrong, it's expensive to live there now for anyone. But it was
weird because the house that they went to, at least in the pictures in
the post, it looks like it's falling apart, like it doesn't look like
he It just didn't look like he was upper class at all, frankly from
how he lived. But he could just be this weirdo, you know,
I don't know, so obviously he is. If he's looks definitely usually qualifies
you as something of a weirdo too. Yeah. So, so he has
an architecture firm on Fifth Avenue that it came up in nineteen ninety four,
and that's ten years the post does before the Long Island murders began. Yeah,
but they you know, there's a map, and they found a lot
of a lot more than four bodies there. But you know, I guess
maybe they don't know if where other maybe Gilgo Beaches, like the place you
went to bury the people you murdered. I don't know, like I don't
know. And we should also also mention that these people who were murdered not
you know, and just doesn't diminish the horror of the crime, or sex
workers, so he might have found them or picked them up in Manhattan and
then brought them out there or what you know, whatever, which reminded me,
as I was telling you before, of another murder. His name was
Joel Rifkin, who was sort of an infamous serial killer who did the same
sort of thing, and he was he was actually caught right near where I
where I was growing up, off and exit on the Southern State Parkway there
on Long Island. So m rich with serial killers, Like we don't have
a we don't have a tradition of serial killers out there, but apparently there
are a few. We definitely do in Wisconsin. But this is just an
amazing I think turn of events where David Harsani starts the podcast by saying,
maybe I've overstated his status as a true crime officient auto and it's like will
act. Actually it's it's sort of similar to the Joel Rifkin case. First
of all, I do not appreciate that impression, but I will say that,
yeah, Joel Rifkin also, people can look him up in the nineties,
would anything it's Rifkin, not Rifkin, but he would go into the
into Manhattan and then you know, find his victims and then drive them out
to places like I think actually probably on the on the beach as well,
because it's not obviously it's very busy during the day, but at night there
aren't a lot of people down there obviously, so it looks like the right
place to go if you're doing that sort of thing, I guess. So
what else stands out to you about you know, the news that we have
at today or even the case itself, which I actually was not familiar with
it all. And I've seen a kind of wall to wall coverage on in
certain corners of the media over the course of this morning. Um, I'm
not even familiar with this case, But what makes it, you know,
intriguing and what about this news stands out to you too? Well? For
me obviously because I grew up there and I have a lot of family and
friends there, it was it was actually quite big news because it's you know,
obviously it's scary when you have a serial killer. But I also think
when I was when I was growing up, you know, there were seemed
to be many more serial killers, and it was hard to find them in
hard to cops to capture them because you know, they were wildly or they
would, you know, like the Zodiac killer would send notes to the paper
things like that. But these days, because of DNA technology and a little
cameras or whatnot, it seems like there are far fewer of these sorts of
criminals around, or they're maybe they're caught immediately or whatever. So what was
what was the guy's name? B BF He was a killer and they caught
him like BFK. Yeah, BFK killer who they caught years later through I
think they they it was a DNA thing on a stamp or something like that.
So, you know, serial killers can't foresee what kind of technology we
have. So I think it's interesting bt K. Yeah, So so I'm
not sure how they caught this guy, though they again, I think in
twenty twenty one or twenty twenty two, they kind of started sending out more
information to the public. It seems like someone called in with with something,
but they haven't shared that yet. But you know, with so it's a
rarer I think these days to have a serial killer at large and that and
that probably fascinates people more because it's rare, and because they're caught so often,
you know, and don't get to do these things. And here's something
interesting. The Post is also borating. By the way, David, you
can probably back me up on this. The New York Post is really the
go to for all New York area crime story. Just why I'm relying on
it heavily. Yeah, it has been for forevers and something Yeah, since
young It's just yeah, they'll just give you everything you want when you're reading
about a story like yeah, including pictures and to the point where I think
it's potentially responsible at times. That's said, they are all over the coverage
sort of their specialty. And they are also reporting that there was this creepy
caller who used a cell phone actually from one of the victims to as they
say, taunt that victim's sister. Actually after she disappeared, this person,
according to the Post quote, received roughly a dozen ominous calls from an unknown
person. And according to the Post, this suspect is potentially the person.
I mean, obviously that would make sense, but it's potentially the person to
do that. And it gets to something you were just talking about, how
you know, the Golden State killer for instance, another one of these like
quintessential seventies eighties crime sprees that upended a lot of middle class neighborhoods and scared
families and mothers and fathers and went on for a really long time. That
was also DNA testing recently. That's a crime that has larger than solved because
there were updates in DNA technology. And in this case, your Zodiac killer
doing letters. And in this case you have cell phones being used to like
sort of obscure the caller or in ways that you would have to be fairly
tech savvy to kind of get into someone else's phone and call the person.
I actually think that's a fairly interesting sort of detail about this suspect. Yet
they trying, but they might be able to triangulate calls or get a better
sense of where they're coming here. This is you're also pretty good on cereal,
and that's what part of the serial cases as well, the odd non
said case. Yeah, that was a long time ago. I remember being
very very skeptical about the framing of that, of his innocence, and obviously
I think they let him out right, So, but there was a star
recently about yeah them again basically I forgot, I forget, which I'm sorry
I forget, which this is all breaking so I haven't done all the research
necessary, but I believe that some some news paper went back and looked at
the evidence and pretty much that he was guilty. But anyway, yeah,
so so yeah, I mean, I don't know. I feel like cell
phones and things like that are are traceable in different ways. Obviously, people
used to call from pay phones, so it'd be almost impossible to track them
down. We didn't have cameras everywhere, and not just cameras that the police
use in the government uses, but just people have cameras everywhere. They're taking
pictures all the time. There it's very hard to hide hide in plain sight
anymore. I think the Idaho killer great example, the Moscow, Idaho killer
in the last year, right, and Long Island. Like, so if
you go to a city, I don't know where Denver, where I lived
for a while, and people would call it the city. To me,
it didn't seem like a city. It just seemed like Long Island. You're
like, you know what I mean. It's really dense and busy. There's
for most people would view places like Massapequa as as a city, as an
urban area. There are a lot of people around all the time. So
for someone to get away with it for this longest kind of surprising. Yeah,
I agree with that, but there's something I guess particular about the time
period in which you grow up. So, for instance, only murders in
the building. I don't know if you've watched that show, but they go
back to Zodiac where they go back to m Berkowitz, which one was Berklewitz.
Yeah, it's Son of Sam, Son of Sam, Right, So
they go back to Son of Sam, and they really zoom in on this
particular era, and there is very much something about it, And I wonder
if you've any more thoughts on just sort of it's not just the technology,
but what that did to kind of American culture from Golden State to Son of
Sam to Zodiac at the time. Well, I don't. I'm not that
old, Emily, so I don't exactly. I just first ever remember it
in such a great detail. I didn't ask you about edgean of the Society
in nineteen seventy seven or whatever. But I was alive and I was young,
and actually I lived in Queens, New York in nineteen seventy six and
in when The Son of Sam was around, and I think, you know,
there was obviously the crime rates were very high in those days. There
was just a lot of murderers. I forget. You know, you're talking
about two three thousand murders in New York City every year. And the idea
that someone and you know, and people felt helpless. That's why you had
all these sort of death wish or all these um vigilante movies, Dirty Harry.
It probably would just made people feel less helpless to see that sort of
thing. But in reality, you know, you had this David Berkowits walking
around, I mean, they didn't know who he was at the time,
shooting women and shooting couples, and I just think that it fed into a
sense of helplessness for a lot of people. Just looking back and talking to
people where you know, life was pretty bad. There's garbage everywhere, there's
strikes, there's you know, New York City is going bankrupt, and you
have people just ran. It's not even that they want your money anymore.
They're not mugging you, they're just shooting you for no reason. So I
think that there's a mccob's sort of fascination with people like that. But also
at the time, it just fed into what people were already feeling about the
world, which was, you know, a sense of helplessness in the face
of crime and these kind of defarious figures, and there were a lot of
them. Obviously out West you had killers. You know, what was it.
I think it was the Green River Killer. I went back and read
about that one time. It just was like, I can't believe he killed
seventy people or whatever it was, and they couldn't catch him. Essentially,
before DNA technology, a lot of these serial killers, if they were careful,
just go about their business as long as they felt like and that's pretty
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Chris Murkowski on Apple, Spotify, wherever you get your podcast. I'm actually
going to play some audio right now from Rex Shrman because there's a YouTube video
of him kind of talking about his career. So let me just hit play
on this in your office, all right. I wasn't looking forward to doing
this under a scoffold. The voice you just say, okay, anyway,
let's divide. So tells you know who you are, you know where you're
from, and I don't give been in New York okay, Um, Rex
Heureman. I'm an architect. I'm an architectural consultant. I'm a trouble shooter.
Born and raised on Long Island, Okay, been working in Manhattan since
nineteen eighty seven. Oh wow, very long time. Okay, so that's
just a little bit of it. This is from a YouTube channel called Bonjour
Realty. Um So he apparently, according to the post, his clients included
American airlines, So there's probably some pretty big clients, Sarah. If you're
watching the video, you can see his office looks looks pretty nice. He
seems to be, you know, sort of your typical long islander. I
think, David, he sounds like your typical long islander. Thank thank you.
So, you know, I just read something very interesting. As you
were playing that, it didn't hit me that the Baldwin brothers grew up right
there, right, and they're around the same age. So actor Billy Baldwin
says that this guy was a classmate of his at Burner High School, Massapeque
one, nineteen eighty one. Are you implicating the Baldwin brothers time is a
flat circle? No, I'm not. I'm just saying, yeah, one
of them is already enough trouble over something like this. One of them is
a killer himself. I don't know why I'm laughing about that. Actually is
probably a good question. No, it's a question. We can talk about
later. But basically, this is four women. They were all found Apparently
they were all sort of left within days of each other and go Go beach
in twenty ten, and they were all wrapped in burlap, So that was
the sort of pie that brought them all together. Is there anything else that
we're missing on that? I don't think so, I mean, any other
details that are particular to why there's one killer. For instance, Peacock has
a movie out right now implying the zodiat killers, like the entire single killer
theory is wrong, that maybe it was multiple killers. But is there anything
else we're missing about that that might you know, once they have one suspect,
it might really bring the case together. I don't know. There was
one of the women who they had audio of calling nine one one, and
the cops last year said that that that person probably wasn't killed by the same
killer, So who I'm not sure. I can't say. There were a
lot of He's very close to each other, so I guess we'll know more
soon enough. I think it's more like the obvious, you know, with
the Zodiac or others, because we don't know who it was. Necessarily,
there's a lot of you know, theorizing people. I mean, I read
the Zodiac book. I forgot the name of the author. I watched the
movie. I'm really into that case as well. But you're not an aficionado.
No, I wouldn't say not on that case. I was really into
making making a murderer. That guy I remember, because I disagree. That's
closer to where I grew up, so probably a similar distance from this one
to you. And I actually have vehemently disagreed with your coverage of that,
although it is very helpful. Yeah, I kind of need to refresh my
memory and that. But anyway, and this one, it seems to me
like the obvious answer is the right answer. There's this crazy if this is
the guy, that there was one guy and he was doing this, what's
weird to me? And I don't really understand the psychologist. It's obviously completely
but we're at all hopefully, But why these people go on these murder spreeze
and then just can stop. It tells me that it's not you know that
they have that they're I don't know, more logical and how they go about
this, or and less just you know that it's less just some kind of
you know break with reality or whatever, because they're obviously planning these things,
and then when when the pressure's on, they stopped for a long time or
forever. Maybe this guy didn't kill at all. It was the same thing
with the killer out in Kansas. I mean he had he hadn't killed in
the I think it was the seventies or eighties, and then he just stopped
for decades, right, So I don't know. I think that's an interesting
aspect of this as well. Well. Yeah, and that's another interesting question
about serial killers and kind of the place that they occupy it or even the
I don't know, stereotypes not the right word, but archetypes that they occupy
in our imaginations. Is that sometimes it's it's the igeene or the you know,
the sort of introverted lives on the outskirts of town, is not integrated
well into the community, and is someone you're just like, Yep, that's
the person I can totally see that they're serial killer. And then other times
it's had Bundy and you know, somebody who is extroverted and so extroverted in
fact that they're sort of able to charm their way into situations that enable them
to prey on people and this guy just based on the video and the sound
we just played, I mean, he looks gregarious, He looks completely normal,
sounds pretty completely normal in that video too, So it seems to be
like one of more of one of that type of in that vein rather than
the other where you just have a sort of creepy introvert stalking. It's creepy
in a different way when it's somebody who sort of charms their way into this.
Yeah, I think that it's more horrifying when people think about Bundy who
who was you know, a good looking guy and wasn't stupid and all that,
because a smart person can even trick the cops more trick you, and
so probably goes back to like Jack the Ripper, where you know, could
have been a doctor you know who is doing it or whatever. The theories
are so yeah, but a lot of times it is just the loaner type
and obviously something wrong, you know, wrong Joe Rifkin or whatever type who
was I believe he was adopted. Now I'm not saying that, I'm not
saying serial killers aren't necessarily all adopted, but he never really I think,
you know, could fit into society in a way. So I don't pretend
to know why, you know, the motivations of these people, but the
very idea that you will just kill to kill because it gives you some sort
of joy or whatever is horrifying, right. It's not. These aren't criminals
in the sense that we can you know, apply any logic to how they're
acting. So I think that that's what fascinates people, and for people on
because of the folks on Long Island, you know, it's just it's probably
just scary to have someone like this among you know, among them, who
they didn't you know, without you know who, they didn't know who it
was, could have been their neighbor. And it turned out it was a
neighbor of people who are very how can I say, you know, middle
class, you know, a very nondescript middle class area. It's not like
like you say, it wasn't out on the outskirts of town. It wasn't
some crazy, you know, some nut or seemingly a nut, and and
it was just among them, and that's scary. Yeah. So the victims
are twenty four year old Melissa Barthelomy. She was discovered along Ocean Parkway on
December eleventh, twenty ten. Now there are three others, Meghan Waterman who
was twenty two, Amberlin Costello who's twenty seven, and Marine Brainard Barnes who
was twenty five. So these are all women in their their early to late
twenties or probably even early to mid twenties old as being twenty seven years old,
So all all very very young. Um, definitely all you know,
people who had a lot of life in front of them and were found in
these burlap I guess, wrapped in burlap about a tenth of a mile from
each other actually on the beach itself. Yeah, but there were eleven bodies
found, so I do wonder what's going on? And I saw that one
of the lawyers for one of the victims said that that he knew that the
cops had another suspect as well and some of those murders, so I maybe
maybe it's more than one murderer, you know, who knows, though that's
usually not the case. That usually doesn't happen when it comes to serial killers
as far as my expertise on the issue issue goes. But yeah, I
mean, you know, we should just say, you know, as I
hate that we there's sort of an entertainment value connected to these sorts of things.
But it's kind of you know, serial killers and these you know cases.
But it's just I don't know, it's just how it is. And
and but we should always remember that this is, you know, this is
a pretty serious thing. And uh, I know that I've been laughing and
stuff, but I'm not laughing at the mergers. I'm laughing. There go
again, you know, it's a nervous laugh, I guess, or you
know whatever. I don't know. I just feel like, um, when
I watch these shows or when I read a book on something like this,
it's always I always feel a little guilt underneath that there's an entertainment value connected
to it. I don't know why that exists. I think personally, it's
not murder or anything like that. It's the mystery and the horror of these
kind of people, you know. And I think since the eighteen hundreds you've
had a lot of literature books and Grand Poe to whoever that has, you
know, even Dustyevsky, you know, who are fascinated with people who just
killed to kill right, and who gained nothing from it but some sort of
perverse satisfaction. So I don't know. I'm just thinking it through as we
talk. So I think that's the reason people are so fascinated by this.
Yeah, And I think, you know, we've a lot of times try
to pin down one particular reason for the true crime fascination. A lot of
the media coverage is like, well, women are terrified, and that's what
women are drawn particularly it's a true crime. But I actually going to ask
you that question, especially about I remember being at the Titanic Museum. It
was a Titanic exhibit at the National Geographics I should say, a couple of
years back, and just being reading these horrifying stories and watching people kind of
laugh their way through the exhibit and make jokes about the movie. And I'm
not exempting myself from that at all. It's kind of an easy thing to
fall into. And you know, there's something particular about the Titanic. It's
it's not a serial killer story, but it's the same kind of intrigue,
I think, and it's just a very human I mean, it's almost it's
a spectator sport because we're all they all live in this country, you know,
where we all live in communities where horrible things happen and so you're you're
a part of it in a different way, and in a time when people
feel like they aren't a part of things and they aren't you know, maybe
they don't feel like they belong to their community or they don't belong to as
much so society, that there's something about you know, you are part of
this. We're all part of it because we all live in this world and
we all live in these communities. That adds a layer of intrigue. I
don't know, that's that's one of my theories. I think that's a good
theory in some sense. When you have historical events made into movies and covered
so often, they just they they they are mutate into stories that seem almost
like fiction to people. Right, So, I think like the Titanic story
does not does not have the emotional weight of of something that has happened.
You know, it just happened at so long ago that people just view it
as entertainment. You know, it's like in a sense, at least I
hope you know, when you see people like taking selfies at Auschwitz, you
know, it's it's horrifying that people don't take it seriously. But you know,
young for young people that's something that happened so long ago that they can't
even really process it in a way that you would process something horrible that happens
today. So maybe that'll happened with nine to eleven. I don't know.
So I think a lot of the crime stuff is probably similar so far away,
you know, and people enjoy mystery and things like that. So I
never found the Titanic story like interesting. I don't actually think I've ever even
sat through that movie because it's just it's just, you know, people incompetent
people crashing a boat. Basically, I'm sorry that, you know, people
died there, but it's long enough that you know, you don't feel that
bad about that, or it doesn't have the emotional resonance. It's something like
watching a nine to eleven movie which I lived through. Would you know,
so I'm going to get that in a way, I think, Yeah,
no, And it's like the link An assassination, Right, that's a perfectly
fair game for humor in the United States at this point, too soon.
Yeah, no, people, you know, they it's it's like ancient you
know, you read about you got to POMPEII or something, right, I'm
sure you know what are you supposed to do? You can't. You know,
we have enough horrors in our world where we shouldn't have to relive the
horrors of the past. And in that way, Pompey is objectively hilarious because
there are dicks all over the place. I didn't know I could say that
this on this podcast. So yeah, there are there are there are there
are people mastur masturbating and things like that. There's a lot of really weird
stuff going on in pompe which you're like, what was going on in these
ancient Roman cities? But um, yeah, there are a lot of dicks
there and and and you know, so it is funny, funny. So
I was there was a True Crime convention and it's it's annual, but it
was in DC actually a few years ago, and I went to a conversation
between um Amanda Knox and who's the woman who also a New Yorker, right,
who, in the middle of the night cut off her husband's penis.
Oh yeah, yeah, Lorena Bobbit. Yeah, because there was a new
Hulu thing coming out on Lorena Boppit and so it was like build as a
conversation just between Amanda Knox and Lorena Boppit and I was covering culture of Federalists
and thought that would be probably a worthwhile story and went there not realizing it
was attached to this larger true crime convention. And I'm telling you it was
all women. The convention was just just young professional women that were completely invigorated
by the true crime arena. And I've heard that the convention is like that
basically every year. It is such a It does seem like a female dominated
um genre. But I guess my question for you, David. I was
literally gonna say, David, tell me you, are you even a man?
That's me? Of course I am. I am not. No.
I would say that it's weird, like when I hear that women you know,
marry work or in love with, you know, these murderers sometimes,
you know those kind of stories. It's just Weirdon's prison lives. Yeah,
exactly, exactly. Now, I'm not saying that that's the case with people
who visit true crime. I mean, I don't know. I feel like
true crime is widely um. David Fincher, is that his named David Fincher,
who directed like seven in Pike Club and all that he had, He
had an excellent series on Netflix about you know, it had Berkowitz, had
a few other famous serial killers, and it was about the sort of birth
of forensic the kind of forensic signs that helped you track track these people down.
And I just found it really fascinating, and I think they were pretty
popular, and it really reminds me of you know, in the eighteen hundreds,
who had the Sherlock Holmes stories, but others as well that were almost
the same thing. They were like about the birth of scientific method and finding
you know, logic and finding these serial killers and other villains who were terrorizing
people in London and elsewhere, even you know, even though the murders were
probably far they were far fewer murders than people thought. You know, there's
a lot of scaremongering that goes on with this sort of thing. But anyway,
so I don't know how I got on that subject, but I don't
know why women are especially into it. But I can't believe it did not
go to this convention. It's one of the few things I would leave my
house for. But it is weird, isn't it. Like like the woman
who cut off the guy's penis became like a I'm going as icon. Yeah,
yeah, exactly. That's why she was being lauded, both Amanda Knox
and Loraina Bob. But we're being lauded at this event essentially as feminist icons.
That's amazing. But also like, what was her name? Oh,
she grew up in my hometown, Amy Fisher, who who shot Joey Buttafucco's
wife. She was like, she was like this minor celebrity and then people,
you know, she'd be on shows. I think she became a porn
person. I don't know, but there is a weird subculture in celebrating these
kind of weird and probably guilty and sometimes definitely guilty people as celebrities. It's
just really weird. Well, and I think the female thing again, I
see it explained most often as women are like the most common victims of serial
killers and of the sort of true crime situations in general, whether it's serial
rapists or whatever, so they are therefore like most intrigued by it. But
I don't necessarily buy that. I mean, maybe that's some of it,
but I actually think where women really dominate is in true crime community. So
I don't know if you've watched the Golden State, killer doc on HBO about
Patton Oswalt's deceased wife, like late wife, it's really good. It's called
I'll Be Gone in the Dark. But she was working in a community mostly
of other women, to unravel clues about this decades old murder. And you
know, a convention is people who are coming from forums, who are coming
from you know, Facebook groups and Twitter communities, and you know, the
Idaho murders had this huge Facebook group that had huge Reddit pages of people that
were working to nail down details. And I think basically there's just for some
reason, women and maybe it's single women in their twenties and thirties, because
I'll tell you that's the demographic that was at this convention. And by the
way, David, that is the most serial killer thing that anyone has ever
said. The serial killer convention is the one thing that I would leave my
house for. Well, you know, I'm not leaving it to kill anyone.
I will say this, Uh, maybe women are just more Maybe they're
more empathetic towards the victims, and somehow, you know what I'm saying,
maybe they feel, you know, are more empathetic towards victims who want to
know more about serial killers. Maybe they want to know more about serial killers
because they feel more helpless in a way, you know, against because the
serial killers are almost always men, So maybe it helps them deal with that
sort of thing. I don't know exactly, but it would that would make
sense to me as well. Yeah, no, that's an interesting point.
And obviously I've been making fun of you for being a serial killer, Officianado,
but I'm I've probably exposed myself as somewhat of a killer Officionado. Yeah,
you sound you sound like you know more about this than I do.
I am a woman in my twenties and thirties without I don't say that in
a sad way, but I think there is something you know, you can
really be involved and thinking through this, and you know, women just like
honestly, if you're not married, homeowner with a bunch of kids, you
have more time on your hand and time that you can spend watching TV doing
something that actually feels involved. You know, you feel like you're mentally working
through something and you are involved, you know, in the greater American community.
So there's there's something about it that kind of brings you into the case.
So that again, that is my theory, and I kind of am
the key demo. Yeah, I mean, let's be honest. Also,
it is the people who produce those shows and come up with them do a
good job of making it entertaining in the sense that there's a hook, a
mystery, something that's going to be solved. You're going you know, you
feel like there's going to be an ending and you're going to figure or something
at this like making making a murderer, or the hook was that the guy
had been falsely accused before, right, did he do it, you know?
Or was he just you know set up? Um? So there's there's
always that kind of hook, which makes it interesting to people and a lot
of times more interesting. Real life is far more interesting than than movies,
and there are more movies about serial killers than they probably have ever been serial
killers. So it's obviously something that In fact, I just mentioned seven by
David Fincher, which I think is like, oh seven, yeah, the
Brad pitt One Quiteth Paltrow. Yes, what's in the box that one?
Don't give it away. I won't give it away. But so I think
there's there's that. For me, it's always I'd rather watch something or read
something that that actually happened and fit and something that's fictitious. So um,
that's why I think I'm sort of drawn to it. But I know some
of them are pretty boring and some of them are great. You know.
I think making making a murder it was really interesting. Serial it was really
interesting, you know what. I didn't watch the one where the husband pushed
the wife down the stairs the staircase. That one is incredible. That is
definitely one of the all time bests. So people want to know, right,
it's a mystery, and that excites them. So I don't think that
there's probably anything very much deeper than that. No, I agree with.
I mean, I think there are probably other elements that play into it.
But at the end of the day, I mean, a good mystery is
a good mystery, and there's you know, brings you in what you want
to know the answer to these extremely serious and intriguing questions. Do you know
how many Do you know how many people you need to kill to be considered
a serial killers? I thought it was more than three at different time periods,
so like, not all in the same event. Look, not a
mass shooting or something like that. Right, Well, I actually wanted to
ask you. This is in the serial killer case, but it's one that
you actually this is when you were in Denver. I'm sure the listeners know
you just spent years as column wastund Denver. You covered the John Vany Ramsey
case actually, but pretty closely as well, and that was at an interesting
technological period to kind of the Oughts. You know, things were changing,
but not quite social media changing, where you have all of these kind of
amateur internet slews piecing things together, and you were actually in the community.
I could just tell us a little bit about what it was like to cover
that case. Well, yeah, so I actually got thereafter. But what
happened was every year or every couple of years, the case would be reopened
or a new suspect would come forward, and you know, everyone would get
all excited about it. And I, you know, I was in contact
with people who had investigated that case. So I don't know if you remember.
I think it was two thousand and eight. There was a guy named
John Mark Carr who was this weirdo living in Thailand who said he had done
it. And you know, so everyone's like, you see, we told
you the Ramsies didn't do it. And remember the Denver Post sending reporters out
to Thailand, and it turned out the guy was just a nut. Um.
I have a very strong belief, and I have this belief is based
on speaking to people involved in the case and just reading through a lot of
the evidence and stuff like that, that that that John ben A Ramsey was
killed by probably her mother but and you know, and or maybe the dad,
and then it was covered up by them. I think almost every cop
involved in in the case thought the same thing. A grand jury said,
you couldn't you know, as grand jury thought the same thing. But the
the DA at the time did not indict. All the evidence points to that
it's not really that big of a mystery, even though we keep pretending it
is. Um. That story, I think, and at the time it
happened in the late nineties, really fascinated people because John Bena was part of
this like um beauty queen child circuit thing you know, that was going on,
and it was just very you know, I find that stuff disgusting.
I think it sexualizes children. I thought that then, I think, you
know, so this was like in the mid nineties, this very Clinton era
story, you know, and the reaction it was kind of. I guess
the Internet was around sort of, but it's still pre Internet, but you
know, it just it was when cable news had really come into its own,
so it was on like in a loop all the time. It was
one of those stories, the first stories that you know, was just bombarded
with and the Boulder police, you know, you know, they were just
incompetent. They let neighbors and everyone step all over the evidence. Boulders a
very left wing town, and then a lot of the das that came later
wanted to protect the Ramsey family. But I mean, I've written if anyone's
interesting at the Federalist, I wrote a long piece on it and why I
thought I think that she was well, I think she was guilty, and
they could read through it if they like, And obviously I'd be happy to
talk about that or answer questions on that, but if anyone wants wants to
discuss it's one of my favorite topics. No. I recently read your really
long piece on that, and you have a couple of them on making a
murder as well, and I think you did one on Cereal too, And
I just kind of went down the Harsawi true crime rabbit hole recently, And
I have to say, David, you're pretty good at the true gram coverage.
I feel like you've you've been doing it long enough that you kind of
know the blueprint of what to look at and questions to ask. And I
gotta say I find it pretty helpful. So if people do have questions,
they should submit them so that you can force Molly to talk about these cases
with you. Yeah. Absolutely, I remember. It's my problem with Cereal
was I thought it was just a setup to try to free him, you
know, the guy who you know. It just had all these big giant
holes, the ram, the making a murder thing. I don't I don't
really even remember exactly what happened there, but I remember everyone was really mad.
I think that that piece I wrote on it one of them. I
think it was Steve Avery as Guilty as Hell was like one of my most
red pieces in my career, in my twenty year career, God like millions
of hits. People were really angry. I don't think I've ever gotten more
mail on a piece, except maybe for when I read about Disney So Disney
princesses. So the Yeah, I enjoy it. I'm really big on the
Ramsey case, because it's just maybe because I have my own kids and they
were young when I was really getting into it, and I just thought that
everyone had been that Boulder was just so corrupt, you know, I worked
there, and that the parents were so evil, and I don't know,
it got under my skin, and you know, it was also it was
a mystery still and that's you know, so that's what pulled me in,
and I think that's probably pulls in most people on all these cases. No,
I agree with that. And before I let you go, David,
I want to ask this. This appears to potentially be another twenty three AM
case, at least that's what billy And has speculated. And you know,
when you find out after a long time they have DNA evidence that implicates someone.
These days, it does seem like it's possible to coming back to twenty
three and me or one of the other gene the genetic testing places that will
sometimes give government access. And this is probably the one political part of this
conversation we're going to have, but I wanted to ask you, as you
know, a small government guide, that stuff freaks me out. The idea
that all of these people without your consent because they're and somehow they're somehow related
to you have have uploaded genetic material that comes back to you into a database
that has I would say, all too often cooperated with the government. At
the same time, you know, there's an amazing argument for how this brings
people to justice. What are your thoughts on this sort of evolving tech when
it comes to solving crimes. It's a really interesting question. I'm still kind
of working through it in my own mind. I you know, if you're
listen, if you're if you're catching serial killers with this technology, and you're
catching killers in general with this technology and rapists with this technology, it's not
all bad. There's something good here that's good. I don't want rapists and
killers and serial killers walking around in society, and they deserve to be caught.
Obviously. There's the other aspect of this, where people are have this
most intimate, the most intimate information about you that can exist. I mean
they can, you know, it can look at it and tell you what
diseases you may have, you know, and then things like that in the
future. So that is problematic. I I really don't know how to how
to deal with it, because you're you share DNA with others generally, and
it's going to be very hard to govern something, you know, to govern
that because if you don't want your DNA out there, but you do have
a brother or you know, whoever who is out there and doesn't care,
it's going to be very difficult to govern. So I don't, I don't,
I don't know. I don't really have an answer for it. It
is terrifying in a way. And like other things, like I am not
like AI, for instance, I am not one of these people who's that
nervous about it. I think that every with every kind of new technology like
this, there's going to be some very good things that happen and some bad
things that happen, and it's difficult to navigate. And I think, you
know, it works itself at to some extent. But I do obviously do
not appreciate the way the government believes it has a right to all this kind
of information without any kind of due process, which often happens, and that's
I think the first place to look and fix. Well, the question of
due process is sort of difficult when you haven't consensually allowed these databases to have
your genetic material A relative of yours has, So it's like, how do
you even go a rout obtaining due process from somebody who hasn't consentially uploaded that
information. It's just a weird, weird, weird state of affairs. And
they're all, I mean, actually, if you combine it with AI,
because I am an AI panic person, when you combine AI in another type
of pandemic situation, you say, these people look at this scrape of genetic
material, So these people are most prone to spreading COVID. You know,
for some reason, genetically we can determine these people are most prone to spreading
COVID or whatever the whatever the disease or a bioweapon is in this hypothetical scenario,
and we're just going to isolate people with this genetic material based on our
access to these databases. That's extreme. I know it sounds extreme, but
a lot of what we thought, you know, under emergency circumstances during COVID
was normal. We look back on just a couple years later as what on
earth we're we thinking? So anyway, I find it pretty terrifying, just
when you imagine the possible hypotheticals. Yeah, this is obviously why it's incredibly
important to protect the individual rights of Americans against any kind of you know,
coersion or Polish and no matter what kind of technology you know, initiates the
you know, the common good argument for doing things like that. But anyway,
um we go again, David Harsani acting like every National Conservatist is Adrian
Vermuel. We've reached that portion of the podcast. Yeah, not every most
are too close. I think you actually read too much into that. I
don't. I think you know, for me, the COVID thing was not
driven by National Conservatives at all. I mean it was driven by the left.
The left is far more inclined to to demand some kind of communal you
know, authoritarian or I should say, like rationalized authoritarian actions to communal actions
like you know, communal responsibility. You know what I'm saying. Like,
so the common good thing is used by the left. I mean, it
wasn't Nat cons was shutting down churches and businesses. So I was gonna say,
I just I think Adrian Vermuel defended um mandates and whatever else, And
yeah, the invocation of common good. He's a fascist, so of course
he did, because you know, fascist and fascists and communists or far left
and far right or have a quite a lot in common in process or in
what they think the state should be able to do, even though their goals
are often different. But anyway, we don't want to go down that road
again, but we probably should do one. I was gonna say, we
should do one podcast at some point where you and I, who I think
agree on probably nine percent of everything, but come down on different sides,
like I signed up nat Con statement and you signed the Freedom Con Statement.
We probably should do a podcast where we just dive in all of that.
Yeah. Now, my own views on liberalism, small liberalism and all that
is something I really feel like I might be an efficient auto on, so
I'd be happy to do that more than even serial killers. But I quickly
want to say that there was a piece by Mark Anderson, who's this.
I think he's a kind of an investor, tech guy maybe or something.
I forget exactly what he does, but it's called why AI Will Save the
World, and it's really an interesting piece. I mean, I think he
he's far too positive about all of it, but it's just an interesting counterpoint
to most of the panic I think in society in general. Going back forever,
New technologies are always daunting and scary to people because of you know,
because we don't fully understand what it will do when it will not. And
typically these technologies are how can I say, people overpromise and then everyone gets
scared by them. So so I'm usually skeptical about that. And that's just
why I want to say that. You know, I'm not yet a panicking
about AI because medically and in other areas of science, I think that it
can provide great benefit to people as well, you know what I mean.
So I forgot what I forgot what the topic was that started us allia that
the twenty three and stuff. Yeah, the DNA stuff. Well, no,
I agree. I mean I think it's like I think we're having this
conversation our staff chat about a roma swami and fanol subsidies. I feel like
the big, the easiest layup that I don't see a lot of people in
the sort of net com camp making enough is you know, it's like it
freaked out about COVID. Well, big government gives you everything. I mean,
we had osha. We laid the groundwork for that over decades of expanding
the administrative states. So a lot of us it's like pharma. So everyone
hates big Farma. I get it, you know, for compelling people to
take shots basically through the federal government forcing companies, forcing states to force companies,
so on. So to me, the answer to that is get the
government out of the farma business. I mean, I'm a fan of big
farma. Big farmers saved millions of lives over the past decades. There are
it alleviates pain for people, it does all these good things. It does
bad things as well, and it wants to make money in a profit margin
is how you do it. So disconnect those things don't make government even stronger.
The idea that the right wing, which I think especial people who are
religious or socially conservative, are going to have the power to control that giant
bureaucracy is insane. They will not. There is There's no way, even
when you had your president there right, you could not control these these agencies
and institutions. What makes anyone think you're going to change that? For me,
I've become more I hate to use the word libertarian because it's been co
opted by people who just want everyone to be you know, just want giant
orgies across with you. People using Heroin and DC, although you did use
the term sex worker earlier, which is a very libertarian thing to do.
I know, I was kind of joking because I wanted to say prostitutes,
and I'm like, am I allowed to say that anymore? I don't know.
I just some of these debates I don't want to even be pulled into,
like the debate over how to refer to whorrors. Not just kidding,
but yeah, yeah, so I just make it a point there, But
I don't like to be told what words I can use. That, so
I regret using sex workers actually right now that you mentioned it. Yeah,
no, it's as long as Joy doesn't listen, you'll be okay. Or
colleague Joy Pullman, who is a very firm style guide for federalists on sex
workers versus prostitutes? Do you do you curse? Like? Can you curse
on this podcast? Or no? Can you? Will you beep it out?
Well? Anyway, I used a word that was really bad in a
piece and I and Molly told me someone was angry about it, and I
think it was Joy. It probably was. But you can, I think
on the podcast. My rule is you can, but just not sort of
indulgently frivolously right exactly. So, just like if you're quoting someone or if
there's a need for it, I'm actually pro cursing in general. I think
that it has its place when you really want to emphasize something, for instance,
or sometimes you want to call person a name, and the best way
to do that is to use some kind of you know, curse. But
you know, I've been trained not to do it when I have a microphone
in front of me. Yeah, that's probably for the best. Well,
this conversation took a fascinating turn at multiple times of the course of the last
hour, my colleague, Now I know why you and Molly have so much
fun. I'm so glad to have been joined for this edition of Federalist Radio,
the Summer Friday edition by my colleague, senior editor at The Federalist,
David Harsani. David, thank you so much for actually coming on twice doing
double duty this week. Always a pleasure. Thanks for having me. You've
been listening to another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily Jasinski,
culture editor here at The Federalist. We'll be back soon with more. Until
then, be lovers of freedom and anxious for the first I heard a fame
by the reason. And then