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The Thinking Atheist. It's not a
person, it's a symbol, an idea.

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The population of atheists this country is
going through the rule, rejecting faith,

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pursuing knowledge, challenging the sacred.
If I tell the truth, it's

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because I tell the truth, not
because I put my hand on a book

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and made a wish and working together
for a more rational world. Take the

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risk of thinking. Feel so much
more happiness, truth, beausire, and

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wisdom will come to you that way. Assume nothing, question everything, and

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start thinking. This is the Thinking
Atheist podcast hosted by Seth Andrews. I

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can't tell you how many times I
will log on in the morning and waiting

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for me is an email from somebody, and I get these from all around

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the world, people of all ages, all shapes and stripes, all circumstances,

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but they have one thing in common. All hell has broken loose in

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their life. And the scenarios go
something like this. A woman sends an

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email and she says, when I
married my husband twenty years ago, we

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were both devout Christians, and we
met at church, and we went together

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all the time to church, and
we had Christian everything. But you know,

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a few years ago I just found
myself thinking, I'm not sure I

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buy that anymore. It just doesn't
work out. This doesn't make sense to

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me. I didn't tell anybody,
but I was thinking, and over the

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course of time, I realized I
no longer believed in God. I still

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went to church, and I went
to all the Christian stuff, and I

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kind of played along with the certainly
didn't tell my children, but in my

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brain atheist. So I finally decided
I was gonna tell somebody. I told

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my husband and I came clean,
and he freaked out and he shouted at

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me, and he said that I'd
been watching the wrong videos and reading the

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wrong books, and that, you
know, the devil was inside me,

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and that's not what he signed up
for, right, that he didn't sign

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up to be married to an atheist. And what about the kids. He

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doesn't want the kids to learn anything
about life from anybody who doesn't believe in

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God. He storms out of the
door, He takes the kids with him.

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He threatens divorce, says he's going
to get full custody, and you

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can flip that right. The husband
tells the wife he's the atheist, she's

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the devout Christian, and she freaks
out and does the same. You can

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apply this with children, whether the
young kids are grown. You can apply

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it to parents' friends, employers' church
communities. Secretly, you have been deconstructing.

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There's been a whole series of conversations
happening right underneath the skin, and

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you've told no one until you decided
I have to tell someone, and all

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hell broke loose. We've all heard
the stories. We've shared them on this

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show. Somebody in the church,
right, They're in a fundamentalist religious community

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that they loved, but over the
course of time, all the sermons started

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to sound really pretty harsh and unfair
and kind of cruel and bigoted. So

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the moral part of this person was
like, well, no, I don't

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know. If I had a god, he wouldn't judge or condemn or burn

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gay people. He wouldn't tell a
woman what to do with her body.

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I think that's between her and a
god. Anyway, why are we getting

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in. I'm not even sure that
the whole Adam and Eve's story makes sense.

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It just sounds like Harry Potter to
mean, maybe the Bible isn't totally

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true, maybe it's just kind of
an allegory kind of thing. Useful for

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them, but not really. I
don't know what it is. My Christianity

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now has really nothing to do with
the Bible. I'm just you know,

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if there's a Jesus, that's going
to be a me and Jesus one on

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one personal relationship, and we'll just
skip the Bible. And so you start

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to step away from the hard lines, the black and white, the structure

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of your Christian faith, and then
you make the mistake of telling someone so,

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you know, I just don't think
the Bible is totally true. I

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think the pastor's wrong on this.
Huh. I don't think that makes any

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sense. And the person you told
tells somebody else, who tells somebody else,

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who tells the youth pastor, who
whispers it to the assistant pastor,

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who reveals it to the lead pastor, and before you know it, you

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are hung out to dry in front
of the entire community, and the people

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that you once loved and respected and
relied on they turn on you. They

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don't know what to do with you, they lose their minds, and potentially

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they shun and shame you. So
there you are, without the people that

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you grew up with, your entire
social circle, the activities that you do,

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the phone calls that you make,
the dinners that you enjoy together,

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the safety net that was for so
long underneath you. It's all gone.

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Your whole life is in chaos.
What do I do now? I get

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these messages and I say, I
don't know. I don't have the magic

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bullet. First of all, I
don't think there's any one method. People

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are so complex. Every circumstances unique, So the context is important. But

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I haven't had a lot of success
in my life when it comes to boundaries,

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and I've had to draw some pretty
hard lines. How do I make

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someone get it? I mean,
that's the million dollar question, right.

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I was at a speech that I
had given years ago when little Rock and

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a guy came up to me and
he was pretty down. He had just

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told his wife recently that he was
no longer a Christian and she flipped out

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and his marriage was pretty much over. I think they had not divorced yet,

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but she was this close to signing
the documents, you know. And

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he had come alone for that reason, because he had no one else.

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And I was really moved by a
story. I had four hours on the

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drive home to think about him and
When I got back, I produced just

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off the Cuff, a short video
that I called Letter to a Christian Spouse,

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and it was a message to her
and people like her. Well,

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it's been a while and I wanted
to go back and revisit that and update

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it and kind of polish it up
a little bits. If you've followed my

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stuff, if you've followed me over
the past several years, you've seen that

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I've been working on trying to de
escalate and rehumanize and attempt moments of understanding.

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Not always possible, but we have
to try, right at least I

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feel like I have to try,
and so I have produced a video.

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The link is in the description box. It's something that you can forward directly

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to the believer in your life who
is freaking out and who is grieved and

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scared and desperately trying to save your
soul and maybe the driving you crazy right

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and you're like, I wish I
could make them understand what I'm going through.

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I'm going to try to do a
tag team event with you. I'm

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supposed to be a professional communicator.
I am trying to communicate to the Christian

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in your life, spouse, child, parent, friend, boss, pastor

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whoever. Okay, so that video
has just released. The link is in

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the description box. This is the
audio of that message. So, for

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what it's worth here, it is
a letter to a Christian spouse. Regardless

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of what the title of this video
says, I'm not just speaking to a

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Christian spouse right now. I'm actually
talking to anybody and everybody who is a

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believer who knows and loves somebody who
is either not a believer anymore, or

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they're expressing doubts, they have left
the church, they're on a kind of

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journey that has given you real concern. You're not exactly sure what's going on.

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You are the believer connected to at
least a potential non believer. If

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you're that person, Right off the
bats, I want to ask for a

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favor, okay, and that favor
is this. Do not look at the

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name of this channel with the word
atheist in it and just give up and

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click stop. If you googled my
name and you found out who I am

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and you don't trust me, totally
fair. If you are nervous about what

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I'm going to say, I'm going
to make a guarantee right off the bats,

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all right, A guarantee that I
am not here to talk you out

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of you or faith. I promise
you I'm not going to attack you.

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I'm not mocking Christians at this moment, right now, I have zero interest

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in changing your mind on what I
am sure is a deeply held personal belief

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in God. It is a belief
that means the whole world to you.

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In fact, I'll go a step
beyond that. I'm an atheist. I'm

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an atheist activist, but I will
find alongside you for your constitutional right to

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believe what you believe. You and
your personal faith are protected by law in

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this country, and just as I
get to hold to my values and perspectives,

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you have the right to do the
same. There are important discussions to

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be had about religious claims and theology
and all that stuff, but they can

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wait right Those are for another day. Today, I want to talk about

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the person in your life that has
been keeping you up at night. I'm

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what they would call an ex vangelical. I was a Bible believing Christian for

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three decades. As my ex Christian
buddy Dan Barker likes to say, he

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said, if I wasn't a true
Christian, nobody was, and that's true

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for me. I'm not trying to
sound more convincing. I'm not selling credibility.

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I'm just letting you know that I've
been there. My own journey caused

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my loved ones a whole lot of
concern. And there were calls and emails

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and texts and arguments and tears and
raised voices and prayers for my soul.

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And there were people I care about
who cared about me. They felt tremendous

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pain at the idea that they might
not see me in heaven or have a

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truly good and fulfilled life here on
earth. Maybe you're that person. You're

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a parent, brother, sister,
spouse, friend, pastor whatever. You

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have been witnessing what looks like to
you a train wreck. Somebody that you

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love is becoming the prodigal. They're
saying alarming things, They're doing alarming things,

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these weird questions they are asking,
and the arguments they are making,

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and the books that they have been
reading and maybe even recommending, and all

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the videos that they have been sharing, and in a whole lot of ways,

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you are looking at this person going
what has happened? Like? What

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has happened to the person that I
once knew? In my own life,

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my mother and father, they were
the most devout Christians that I have ever

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seen. I mean, to date, my father passed away recently, but

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I've never seen anyone as devout.
So you can imagine as they raised me

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up in the faith, they felt
like they had done a good job.

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You know. I was a good
Christian man who had grown up with Sunday

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Church and Christian school and Bible study. And my siblings were Christian, my

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friends were Christian, my music was
Christian. For many years, my career

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was Christian. I was a broadcaster
in contemporary Christian radio, playing Amy Grant

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and Michael W. Smith on the
radio. I remember there was a day

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when my dad's brother was in town
from Minnesota, and my dad brought him

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up to the radio station and there
I was playing Jesus music. I was

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doing God's good work, and Dad
was so proud. I just thought he

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was going to bust a button right
off of his shirt. He was smiling

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from ear to ear. He and
my mother had trained up their child in

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the way that he should go,
and it had all paid off. And

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then twenty years later, my father
was desperately scrambling to keep me from going

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to hell. My personal life journey
had taken me to places my parents never

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intended, scary places, danger places. They felt like I had failed them,

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that they had failed me. They
just didn't understand. They didn't know

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who I was. They didn't like
who I was becoming. My father did

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not know how to talk to me, and if we did talk, there

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was always that elephant in the room. Seth is an atheist. He's not

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going to go to heaven. He's
going to go to hell. We have

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to fix this, whatever it takes. And that grief and concern came from

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a very sincere place. They wanted
to keep somebody that they love from harm.

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If you're a Christian and you're watching
someone else and you feel that they

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have left the straight and narrow,
I understand your concern and worry and grief.

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I know it is sincere and it's
very real. I would never mock

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anybody for empathy. We need more
empathy in this crazy world. Right We

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live in a culture of cruelty,
So compassion and concern and empathy they are

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so refreshing, so necessary, And
I think that caring about other people is

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something that unites us all as human
beings. Regardless of our theology or culture,

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color, geographic location, whatever.
My parents were grieving over me because

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I had become somebody that they did
not intend. I grieved over them because

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I saw their inability to process what
I was going through and it made us

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strangers. Especially on their part,
I think they felt that accepting me the

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way I was might be a de
facto acceptance of my atheism. So when

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we did get together, we sat
at the dinner table, or got together

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on the holiday, everything was kind
of on mutes. My family was there,

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We talked, but it was weird, and that made me weary because

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I always felt like I was kind
of the broken branch on the family tree.

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I felt like another not fully accepted
for who I was. It made

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everything really really hard. I heard
somebody say that all families are dysfunctional,

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and if you're like me, you're
probably smiling because I think we can all

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think of examples. Right, families
are dysfunctional. I mean at some point,

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family dynamics, family drama, family
trauma. But I can pretty much

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guarantee you this, the person that
you know who is no longer a believer

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in God has no desire to cause
trauma to you. Or the rest of

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the family or anybody else. They
didn't wake up one day and say,

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you know, today I think I'll
walk away from God and I'm going to

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traumatize the people I care about.
Personal journeys do not work in this way.

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Your loved one did not choose to
struggle the way they are struggling.

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They didn't choose to have doubts.
They didn't choose real questions about claims being

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made. They certainly didn't choose to
hurt you, or to scare you or

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to disappoint you. Right, That
wasn't the point to begin with. What

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I'm trying to say, is this
your spouse or a child, or sibling,

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parent, friend, whoever. They
are not doing what they're doing because

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they're trying to hurt anybody else.
It's not about anybody else. They are

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doing what they are doing because they're
desperately, desperately trying to be true to

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themselves the Bible itself. If we're
going to be honest, it's pretty hard

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on doubters. Who's the one disciple
our parents told us not to be like?

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It was always doubting Thomas Right,
But I personally think that any loving

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God would never be bothered by doubts. A loving God would not punish doubts,

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and that God would probably tell you
to feel the same way. You

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and I use doubt in our lives
every single day. We do every day,

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and it's a good thing. We
teach children to doubt the stranger who

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opens the car door and says,
get in, I'll take you home.

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That doubt keeps them safe. It
might even save their life. But the

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salesperson calls up and says, hey, I've got a great deal, or

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you've been hacked. I need all
of your banking information and passwords. If

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you doubt that, your doubt might
just keep you from getting scammed. If

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you think the ice is not thick
enough to walk on, your doubts might

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keep you from falling through and drowning. Doubt in that way is a filtering

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system. It's part of how we
keep ourselves from making bad decisions and maybe

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even getting hurt or killed. And
for that reason, I want to reframe

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doubts not as a weakness, not
as sin, but as a way of

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helping navigate the world. That's not
anything that a good God would be angry

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about or were afraid about. You
shouldn't be angry about it or afraid about

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it. So I mean this person, whoever they are, their doubts are

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part of a journey. They are
on a journey, just like you are

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on a journey. We're all on
a journey. Life is a journey that's

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got straightaways and twists and turns and
detours and roadblocks and rest stops along the

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way. Right, It's messy sometimes, but I've become convinced that it is

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absolutely critical to as best I can, take my journey authentically, and you

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should take your journey authentically. Your
friend or family member, the person you

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love and have so many concerns about
the be encouraged and protected as they take

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their journey authentically. Would you allow
anybody else to tell you what to think,

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what career to take, who to
have as a friend, who to

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marry, how to vote, where
to go to church, or what religion

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or denomination to belong to, which
God to believe in. Of course you

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would not allow that, because your
journey belongs to you. That's a sacred

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space. You are not going to
be an echo of their voice. You've

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got a voice of your own,
and you're going to speak in that voice

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as best you can. You're not
going to be guilt tripped or emotionally blackmailed

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or coerced by anybody else. You're
going to go where you go and do

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what you do and be who you
are because it's your life, not theirs.

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As messy as it is, it's
your life. You're listening, receiving

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counsel when you can, trying to
lean on the wisdom of others, but

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your life belongs to you, and
you are attempting to live authentically regardless of

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the consequences. This is exactly what
is happening to the person you love.

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They didn't wake up and say they
had all the answers. I'm guessing they

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mostly have questions and challenges. They
didn't wake up and start hating God.

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They didn't go crazy. They don't
just want to sin. I've heard a

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lot of that. It's not as
shallow as just attention seeking behavior. I

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mean, take an honest look at
the person you love. If they were

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a Christian last year and an atheist
yesterday, what's different. Did they undergo

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a total personality change and now they're
just no longer lovable or they don't love

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you anymore? Has their life derailed
into moral anarchy and chaos. You know,

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did they sprout horns? Are they
chanting mantras to the dark lord?

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Or is their person who they are? Them? Of them? Is that

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unchanged in the most important ways.
If they were trustworthy a year ago,

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I'll bet they're trustworthy now. If
they had a great sense of humor a

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year ago, I'll bet they've got
a great sense of humor now. If

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they worked hard back then, or
loved their spouses and children and parents and

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friends back then. If they were
creative, had a wild imagination, if

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they were charitable, did good things
for other people. If they had amusing

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or fun quirks and idiosyncrasies and qualities
that were unique to them, I'll bet

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they still have all of those attributes
now. In the most important human way,

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we're talking about the same person,
and they've made really a noble commitment

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to be honest. They're not going
to take shortcuts or lie to you because

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they don't want to hurt your feelings. The point was never that they wanted

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to hurt you. They're simply trying
to be true to themselves. And I'll

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bet they've had struggles and stress and
sleepless nights. They're worried that they're going

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to lose you, lose the community
that they love, lose their job.

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That kind of thing happens all the
time. Somebody stops fitting in right,

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they're the square peg. They make
someone else uncomfortable, and there are consequences.

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And then beyond that, the big
question what happens after this and my

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own journey? I was asking,
if this is where I am, how

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is it going to alter the trajectory
of the rest of my life? Who

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even am? I? You see
what I mean. This is not something

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that you choose. It's something that
you face, and I think there's a

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lot of merit in facing it head
on as best you can. Honestly,

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if there is one constant in this
crazy world, it is change. Change

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is the only constant. Beware anybody
who proudly says that, no matter what

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happens, I will never ever,
ever ever change. I'm the mighty Oak

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kind of thing. This is not
the flex that they think it is.

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Being rigid is not necessarily a good
thing, because if we see better data,

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if we find a better model,
if we know a better way,

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we want to change and adapt to
that. But it doesn't mean we're different

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people. The person you love may
have changed in some ways, but it's

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still that person and they need you, or at the very least just know

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that they're desperate not to lose you. The point was never to grieve or

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disappoint or embarrass or trouble you.
I'd wager they wish they could just open

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a window into their mind so you
could hop in there and feel what they

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feel, and think what they think, and sort of see it all and

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experience it all for hands. And
they're wondering, what's going to happen.

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Is the love of their family and
friends conditional? Are they going to be

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accepted and respected for who they are
regardless. I'm not saying that lives are

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always compatible. I'm not saying it
always works out. But I do find

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that a lot of people discover ways
to live around disagreements and differences because the

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rest of their lives is so good
it's worth holding on to and protecting.

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It is possible to love someone while
also respecting them and staying out of their

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way. You know, it's your
journey to take. It's not mine,

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And watch those people say the same
to you. Hey, go and be

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you. You do you on your
terms, take your road tell me where

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the journey takes you. Let's get
together later and compare notes sometime. Thank

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you for listening to this total the
guy that you might have been warned about.

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Some people are scared of people like
me. They're scared of the A

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word, you know, the a
theist. I was weird about that word

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for a long time when I was
a Christian. But on my own journey,

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I discovered people who were on their
own journeys, and many of them

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so good, so good without a
God, and it's been an honor sharing

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my life and this world with them. So take a breath, take the

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pressure off of yourself. Trust that
any God who is powerful and caring enough

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to prove himself will do so.
He will appear on the road. He

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will make himself unmissible and unmistakable.
But if that never happens, value that

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the person that you care about has
had the courage to carve a path in

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the best direction they can find.
They are giving themselves the very same gift

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that I hope you have given to
yourself, an authentic life. Again,

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the YouTube link for the video version
of this is in the description box.

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It's probably the optimal method. It's
my preferred format to get some eye contact

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going with the believer in your life. But it's a message I sure would

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like a lot more Christians and people
of all faiths to hear and understand.

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We're all on the journey and I
wish you the best in yours and thanks

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for sharing that with me. A
short show this week. I'll see you

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next Tuesday. Hang in there,