This podcast episode is brought to you by Coors Light. These days, everything is go, go go. It's NonStop hustle all the time. Work, friends, family, expect you to be on twenty four seven. Well, sometimes you just need to reach for a Coors Light because it's made to chill. Coors Light is cold loggered, cold filtered, and cold package. It's as crisp and refreshing as the Colorado Rockies. It's literally made to chill. Coorse Light is the one I choose when I need to unwind. So when you want to hit reset, reach for the beer that's made to chill. Get Coors Light and the new look delivered straight to your door with Drizzly or Instacart. Celebrate responsibly, Coors Brewing Company, Golden Colorado. This is Brandon Kelly, the host of Blue Eyre's new podcast, Golden Goals. From Lionel Messi to Marta to Pelee, our show takes a deep dive into soccer superstars water Welcome for Meghan Rappino, from Zlatan Ibrahimovich's brash confidence with the play to back it up to Megan Rapino's heroic outspokenness and World Cup flare. Each episode examines a personality of the world's game. Will dig into Maradona's Hand of God performance and subsequent downfall, the teenage trio at Dorton that signaled the next generation of superstars, and that infamous headbut that slung Zenadin Zadan from Glory Golden Gold Soccer Stars and the moments that made them premiering this summer on Blue Wire, What is up, Hardwin Knox listeners, I am Dan Pavalley coming at you with Adam frommel We are here to continue our Deck Gade ranking series. We are up to the Minnesota Timberwolves, so we hope you're excited because we're nearing the two thirds point, which is exciting for us. So we're gonna go through the Timberwolves. But first our usual housekeeping notes. Please, please, please, pretty please continue rating, reviewing, and subscribing to us wherever you consume your podcasts. Regardless of that, though, we do ask that you head over to iTunes throw us a five star rating, right review if you please let we know that you rated us, or if you have any feedback suggestions jokes. I'm always there for a good joke. We're reading them and we've seen the numbers go up lately, so I guess my begging has worked, and so I'm just going to continue begging. If you haven't done that, please do. If you have done all those things, word of mouth really helps us out as well. Retweet our promos on Twitter, Shout us out. You can tell friends, family members, random hoops fans you're meeting on social media about us. They'll thank you later, maybe possibly. We appreciate all of it. Follow us on Twitter at Hardwood Knocks. Follow our YouTube channel as well. Go to YouTube dot com search Hardwin Knox, hit subscribe and like all our videos, particularly the decade ranking series, which is these episodes are going up whenever we record them. Last but certainly not least, shout out to our sponsor, as always been Online dot Ag for making this podcast possible. You'll be hearing from them in just a few moments. Now. I must ask the founder and editor in chief of MBA Mass and editor for Bleacher Report, Adam frommel how are you doing. I'm doing pretty well. But instead of going off on some random tangent like I normally do when you ask me that, I'm going to turn it around and ask you how you're doing, because I feel like no one ever asks you that. I guess I've never really realized that our guests asked me that, So maybe you're just rude. That's probably the case. But I'm doing well. I'm just tired, which is my default state, and I've started to notice that I have. The way this works really quickly is my wife and I split the puppies. She's able to take once and she owns her own business to work with her, and then I'll keep the other one. They're getting like more restless. During the podcast, we had the random bark on previous episode with Christian Winfield from the New York Daily News, and it was just one bark, but it was just all of a sudden, just barked during it. And then one of the other episodes, I think you and I were doing the bucks and Wade just kept like jumping on me and he was in my lap for half the episode, and so I missed the days where they were just sleeping through these entire episodes. You just need to get ang to take both of them. That's what I think. And that's right. Ag. That's her name, not even that's not a nickname, that's not a mispronunciation. Her actual name. Is Ang. No, it's not should tell the story behind that. I think you should tell the story. Yeah, I think if I remember correctly, you and you and her had been dating for years and years, and I had only seen her referred to in texts as Ang. So her name is Angela, but for years I operated on the assumption that her name was just ANGG. That's how it was in my head, and that's how it still is. What's great about it, too, is I only found out because you pronounced it like that when you. I think we might have been podcasting where we were on a video call for Bleacher Report and you asked how AG was doing. I was like, excuse me, it's your fault. Good times. That was a nice little fluff piece. Ahead of the Minnesota Timberwolves rankings, are you able to before we get to number ten just provide us with the usual overview of how this works for our first time listeners. Absolutely so. As always, we have turned to you, the listeners, the fans, for your input on these rankings. With the polls that are out on the NBA Math Twitter account. We're asking you for the top ten, in this case Minnesota Timberwolves of the last decade, which dates back to twenty ten eleven. However you choose to define that term importance to the franchise on court success, contributions towards winning, whatever it may be. So we have three components of our composite ratings, the fan vote, my ballot, and Dan's ballot, and we have grouped those together to come up with our composite top ten. We did have twelve different people included on one of the three components this time around, So a brief shout out to Derrick Rose, who checked in at number ten on the fan ballot and did not make the cut for either myself or Dan, and Namania be Eliza, who was tenth for both me and Dan but missed the cut by quite a bit on the fan vote, I believe. Yeah, all the way down at at in a tie for twenty seventh. Only one other person had be Elitza on a ballot, But the actual number ten in our composite rankings is Luke Riddenauer, who would be I feel like that's a great way to start this particular set of rankings, because you know, no disrespect meant to the Minnesota Timberwolves fans or anything, but it's it's been a fairly forgettable decade, only one playoff appearance in the last ten years, that twenty seventeen eighteen season where they lost in the first round, and the rest has not gone so well. I think that's probably the nicest way we can put it. So, yeah, Luke Ridnour to kick it off. It also feels pretty typical that he is carried in these rankings by you, and you only by me and me only. Yeah, Dan didn't have him. I had him. I had him at eighth in my rankings. The fans had him in a tie with Anthony Tolliver for eighteenth, and I have no regrets there because you know, as forgettable as it may have been, he spent three years in Minnesota, which for this decade, with as much lack of continuity as there's been, is seven that puts him seventh and minutes played. He was a consistently solid offensive player, never anything special, And you know, I have somewhat of a personal attachment, I guess because he went to the same high school as my wife. That is you talk about a connection, I think you put it find consistently. Salid shot fairly well from the three in his time of Minnesota, thirty five point nine percent of a fair weather game manager. I would call him as as a playmaker. It I think it might. It has to be remembered though, that the Timberwolves are basically one of the teams I feel like kicked off the Luke Wridden hour trade fiesta where they traded him in two thousand thirteen, and then a year later he was traded like eighty times in the in the same offseason. It was really only it was really only twice at that point. Or no, it's like four two thousand fifteen where he was traded in the same offseason, one, two, three, four, five, four times he was traded in the two thousand and fifteen off season. So the Timberwolves got it started though in July two thirteen when they when they sent him to the to the Milwaukee Bucks. That wasn't the first time he was traded, But if you look at his transaction history, that's talk about a tangent. But you just need to set aside an hour to actually look at that transaction history. Right in two thousand and thirteen, seemed like the he was traded in at least once in every single year thereafter. So that's just that's just kind of funny who checked in. I don't think there's a qualms. I actually I regret a little bit not putting him in the top ten. But this was, you know, we made you made the joke at the top, but this was also just kind of a tough group to parse once you got passed, Like the top five and then even the order, I don't even know. I would say number one was probably pretty close to consensus, but there might have at least been a debate. But everything after the top two you could really have these genuine debates over right. Not a lot of people have spent that much time in Minnesota over the last decade. There haven't been many stars. Yeah it was there were a lot of options. They're just weren't a lot of good options. They are one of the fan bases where you look at their playoff drought where it's you have only one playoff berth since the two thousand and four postseason. That was, as you said, it was the two thousand and eighteen playoffs. They're fan base I feel for and it's not I want all fan bases to be fulfilled by their teams, but like Timberwolves fans, they feel like they deserve your your empathy here because they're not as far as stand bases go, They're just not really like these a snotty fan base and where they're going to get abrasive about the situation that they're in. And then also you just look at some of the teams they've had, those Kevin Love teams that looked like they were going to be really good. You trade for a star like Jimmy Butler, and all of a sudden, you have this top ten player, and so you think that's a turning point. We know about the David Kahn, a certain draft decision that might have ended up hurting them, and so there I feel generally bad for them because it seems like their team has had all these opportunities to be more consistent when it comes to contending for the playoffs over the past fifteen plus years, and yet it either just hasn't worked out their way or they've consistently made the wrong decision. Yeah, I'm very much with you there. I feel like I have not had any negative interactions with Timberwolves fans on Twitter or any social media platform, and that is not for a lack of criticism, because there's been a lot of low hanging fruit over the years, right, And so I applaud the way that they handle the criticism and then the interactions I've had. They really do know their basketball too, and so that that gives them license to yell at us on Twitter about how awful we are in these rankings. But at least there wasn't variant in the top ten. Like you said, there were twelve different players in the top ten, so at least we were in semi lockstep in the aggregate there. But can't you take us to number nine? I can, And he is the final player who did not appear on all three components, and that's thanks to me barely leaving him off in favor of Beelitza. But it is Kevin Martin who checked in at number nine for the fans and who you had up at number seven. He only spent two and a half seasons in his thirties with the Timberwolves. It was after he had had his best years with the Kings and the Rockets and spent one brief season in Oklahoma City. You know, a good score, funky jump shooting form, nothing much to add on defense, and you know, I feel like he was kind of the empty calorie scorer of the decade for the Timberwolves, which I get why that's enough to put him here, even if it wasn't quite enough to tip the scales in his favor. From my ballot, empty calories feels like a stark criticism. Seventeen point one points per game a Minnesota on thirty eight point six percent shooting from three, definitely not the most accurate two point shooter. You talked about his jump shooting for him, and yeah, I guess he's never the face of a really good team as a score, but that seems more about him being miscast where we well. I don't think it was empty calories earlier in his career, but in Minnesota he made a bad team worse when he was on the court, or at least stagnate, like it wasn't like he was doing that much to add value. If you can shoot average seventeen points a game across two and a half different seasons on thirty eight percent shooting from three, I'm gonna question whether that's truly empty calories. Maybe that's a fair criticism, but I'm still a little bit shocked that you would put him or he would leave him off instead of be Elitza. What is the case for be Elitza over Kevin Martin. I was not prepared to answer that question. It was more just I gave I gave the Elitza a little bit more credit because he played more than a bit role on better teams. You know, I don't know that there's an argument to be made that he provided more individual value than Kevin Martin during their similarly brief times with Minnesota, But I do think that his acceptance of a smaller role and ability to come in and make a positive impact on a team that actually did go to the playoffs and was in contention for those postseason spots while he was there, deserved a little bit more credit. Not unfair, but look forty one Minnesota team in twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen, Kevin Martin's the second leading scorer that I think you can say is close to a fringe playoff team. And so I just I just questioned the empty calories categorization of it. But that might have been a bit hyperbolic. But I'm gonna stick with it because I said it already fair enough. Did you take us to the number eight? I can that is a zach Lavine who was number seven for the fans, he was number nine for me. He was number eight for you, So we're all at least in a similar range there. I almost feel like it's hard to separate the Minnesota version of Zach Lavine from the Bowls version, which probably favors him because he did go through a rough rookie season in twenty fourteen fifteen and then gradually improved to the point that he was a valued trade commodity and moved in that Jimmy Butler deal. But he wasn't always a consistent three point shooter. He was definitely more of an athlete playing basketball than a basketball player early in his career with the Wolves. But I mean, it always seemed to me, at least like the breakout was coming. I feel like I was always really high on his cential for this shot. He was a good shooter in Minnesota, so there's no question about that, but for the types of shots that he would take, it feels like his efficiency should have been so much lower, and I would have been interested to see. Maybe it never happens because the Timberwolves haven't had the steadiest coaching, nor as Chicago for that matter, But what if he never suffers that ACL injury. What if he's never traded away from Minnesota, what does he end up turning into. But he's he's a very good offensive player, and the fact that he was still a good shooter or always was a good shooter. But then, like you know, he's shooting forty eight percent on twos. I know a good amount of his looks came at the rim, but he was still taking these kind of for at least part of his time there, these these junkie jump shots, and I'm almost impressed that he had an EFFECTI field goal percentage over fifty during his time in Minnesota. Again, I know you're looking at the number of assistant looks. It's going to be way higher in Minnesota than it is in Chicago right now. And like you said, maybe that kind of blurred as the lines because we're so there's the recency biased there. But I kind of respect where his efficiency landed at for the types of shots that he was taking outside of those assisted threes. In many I almost feel like Minnesota didn't know how to use him, and it both hurt him and helped him, because it felt like his whole tenure with the Wolves was spent bouncing between guard positions. They couldn't decide if he was better as a catch and shoot guy or if they wanted to force him to develop some point guard skills and playing alongside alongside Ricky Rubio. It didn't They just didn't have any sort of consistency for him. It probably held him back during the three seasons in Minnesota. I also feel like it's helped him become an offensive star with the Chicago Bulls because he is comfortable in both of those roles. So the growing pains that he went through in Minnesota I think depressed his standing on our rankings, but also helped him become player he is today. Sports are coming back, and so are your chances to bet on your favorite teams and events, and there's no better place to start than our exclusive partner, bet online. Get in on the action for this week's big UFC fight, or check out odds on NASCAR, Formula One and the Premier League. Can't wait for your team to come back. Bet online has future's odds, including wind totals, division winners and even league championships. Or check out daily simulations of Madden and NBA two K to watch and wager on visit bet online dot ag and use promo code bluelyre to receive your new welcome bonus. That's promo code blue wire all one word bet Online, your online wagering experts. Moving on to seven, I'm ready number seven Nikolau Pekovitch, which is a name that if you haven't thought about in a while, you should change that because he was super fun. He was number six for both the fans and me. He was down at number nine for you. Never healthy, but just talk about just like this paint bound behemoth who could push around everyone and just capitalize on maybe the strongest body and game in the NBA during his time in Minnesota. You could definitely do pull ups on his arms. That's how he was built. I really hope that you're saying that from personal experience. I wish my thing with him, and he was a good player when he was healthy. But if you're looking at his two best seasons so twenty twelve twenty thirteen and twenty thirteen twenty fourteen, he's still missing like almost a third of the team's games during that time, and so the never healthy factor really kind of waited for me, which is why I ended up having him at number Where did I put number nine instead of really any higher? I totally see the case to put him higher. And just this really big body and a good offensive player. And while he wasn't you know, someone who was going to really just space the floor for you, he had like the in between range, which could really help out at that position for the era. And then it doesn't really matter as much when Kevin Love is you is your four. So the numbers he put up, they're just they're absolutely absurdant. Even if you just look at his even when he was kind of going through his rougher season, his per minute production just his his rookie season until his pen ultimate season in the league. So twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen, eighteen point three points, nine point eight rebounds per thirty six minutes, shooting fifty two point one percent on twos, which again, when you when you have a little bit of range or you're taking in these in between shots, that's a pretty good number. So and again his peak was just really good. I just have a trouble reconciling how unavailable he was for them routine Yeah, not just over a couple of seasons, but routinely. Yeah, I mean in August twenty thirteen, he signed that five year, sixty million dollar deal, and it seemed like a good value, Like it seemed like that was a justifiable number for a guy who fit the style of that era, who who fit well alongside Kevin Love, who overpowered opponents on a nightly basis. And then the ankles just betrayed him, you know, that that chronic ankle and achilles pain that completely wrecked his career. And it's not like, you know, he played twelve games in twenty fifteen, sixteen, and it's not like he has since gone on and played in a different league as overseas or anything like that. He's just his basketball career was put after that. And it's a shame because you know, as you helped highlight with those numbers like he was, he was really good in his late twenties before those injuries struck. And I would just imagine that it's probably hard to recover from these serious foot issues with a body like his, almost seven feet tall, and then he's listed on basketball references three hundred and seven pounds, and so even if you'll give or take twenty pounds there, you're still just carrying all out round a lot of weight there and force with which you're just running up and down the court. On the other thing, I always think of when I hear Pekovich's name, and again, it's probably been a while since I feel like we've we've largely forgotten about him until we do those these retrospectives. Remember when we when we did all the league wide redrafts at bleacher Report back in the day where we would draft the NBA from scratch, Yes, I do. I don't remember what year it was, but I was. I was running it from a family vacation at in Hilton Head, South Carolina, and we were in like the seventh round, and someone I think it might have been Grant Hughes, another another Hardwood Knox friend, who pointed out that Pekovich wasn't listed among the available players to choose from, and so we had to have like the Pekovich and then andre Kirolinko was also left off corollary, and like give these the ability to like pick him and then forfeit a later pick or something to make it fair. I just I always think about, like how I totally messed up that process whenever I hear his name. So you're giving him a sympath de bump in these rankings, is what you're saying. We can go with that fair enough. I don't think my sympathy bump would would dislodge him much. But do you have something against players that at one point played for the Timberwolve Because Andre Carolinko as well. He had a season in Minnesota, and he did get enough votes to show up in our honorable mentions, as we'll get to at the end of this episode. Before honorable mentions, though, can you take us to number six. Number six is Jimmy Butler, who was number seven for me, number six for you, number five for the fans. I was surprised that the fans were the highest on Jimmy Butler, considering how his brief time with the franchise ended. I mean, the phenomenal twenty seventeen eighteen season where you know, he continued to establish himself as an absolute star, capable of leading just about any team to the playoffs. But then the trade requests and you know, Tom Thibodeau not moving him and then playing ten games, and then the ridiculous series at a at a practice, which I guess I'll let you elaborate on because I think you've thought about that more recently than me. What's really so, I think you hit it on the head when you said Tom Thibodeau didn't trade him, And that's where the anger needs to be directed at, because Jimmy Butler requested out after the first round loss to the Rockets, and Thibodeau, I guess, tried to call his bluff, and then even after it became more public, they let it was longer than ten games into the season, but he made ten appearances for the Timberwool was still before being traded to the Sixers. It was a farce, but it was more so a farce from Tom Thibodeau than I think Jimmy Butler, And I still think the optics of him his tour to force, which is still just one of my favorite phrases to come out of NBA reporting of all time, having that practice and then being interviewed by Rachel Nichols immediately thereafter where it all see and really scripted, and he look, he said that that would be more script well, he said it was set up weeks in advance. But I like the optics there are just so and we're not used to that We're used to these anonymous sources. We're used to players deny, deny, deny, and he's just out there. He didn't really, I don't. I don't think he ever really said it directly, but he was basically just like, there's no salvaging this. It just can't happen. It's just what I remember. And maybe Wolfs fans appreciated his candor. But look, he also led them to the playoffs that year, and it's the only playoff birth they have since there twenty fourteen postseason. And the other thing is that team was almost entirely on his back, so we can agree on that, but they were contending before he suffered his injury for the three seed in the West. I believe, like like they were really right there, and so that, like I wonder if he never has that or needs that. It's I'm not saying that he shouldn't have had it, but has the right knee surgery to repair a meniscus injury. And I think it was February twenty eighteen around then. What becomes of that team are they? I don't know if they stayed together still because I'm not sure unless he really believed in Karl Anthony Towns Andrew Wiggins. I'm still not sure they had this clear path to really being a long time Western Conference contender, but they could have, like you could finish the season on a lot better vibes than they actually did. And so and the fact that he still came back for the playoffs, you know, having the surgery at the end of I just looked it up in February and then being back less than two months later for the playoffs, that's something that they might also respect. Really not trying to speak on behalf of Wolves fans here, I just have him so high for these reasons, basically that I think you're willing to overlook the messiness of the departure, not only just because of the success and which has been a rarity at this level for the Ten Moors for so long, but because it wasn't just him in this scenario. There's was a ton of people to blame, and mostly just Tom Thibodeau. I initially had Butler lower in my rankings because of the manner in which he exited and the potential negative effects that it had on the franchise, But then as I thought about it more and looked at the trade package that they got back for him. I moved him back up they still managed to get They traded him and Justin Patten to the Philadelphia seventy Sixers for Jared Bayless, Robert Covington, Dario Sharitch, and a twenty twenty two second round draft pick. That's a pretty decent return for a disgruntled star who had just turned twenty nine and was on an expiring deal because he was going to hit free agency in twenty nineteen anyway, which is when he signed the deal with the Philadelphia with the Philadelphia seventy six ers. So that was still a decent return and was not grounds for moving him down like it could have been if they'd gotten nothing back. Right, But what happens if you move him more when the trade demand is more discreet over the off season, it feels like there'd been more suitors, maybe you would have been able to get at least actually did for him. So while the hall I think in retrospect was, I mean, looking at what Dario Sarch has becoming Phoenix, maybe it doesn't look so great, but look also relative to what they gave up. I guess that depends on how you feel about Chris Dunn who was a defensive monster this year before he got injured, Zach Lavine, who's a borderline top fifty player on the back of his offense alone, and then Lowry market In who really seems like his growth has been stunted due to injury, maybe the offense he's playing in, and then perhaps he's just not as dynamic on that end as people expected. But you gave up a ton to get him too, so the return doesn't really feel commisurate with that, particularly if you look at the trade Trede at this point because of what you have. You know, now you have Jared Colver instead of Dario sarch And these are just rough outlines here. You ended up traded, You ended up trading Robert Covington, and so that was like a fairly nice return. But when you start to branch off like what they started with compared to what they have now, it really it doesn't look all that great. And so but I do wonder could you have gotten more from a different team. Maybe that didn't view Butler as so much as the risk or No. He was openly disgruntled had you moved him over the offseason when he initially requested it. Probably so, probably so. In either way, we're still talking about a guy who was twenty fourth and minutes played for the decade and still was an obvious inclusion on all the top ten. And I think that says a lot in and of itself. What happens if he finishes the twenty eighteen in Minnesota. Let's say none of this drama happens, he plays out the season, then leaves in free agency. Maybe it's still a sign and trade with the Heat. Whatever, how far up this list does he go if the Timberwolves make another playoff berth probably third or fourth. That's high, assuming he plays. I mean we're basically putting him. You know, you had him at sixth on the back of one. And look when you look at the names that are coming up. Anyway, as I'll ask you to take us to number five, it could really make some that he definitely gets to at least number four, And I'd probably say there'd be a strong case for a minute. So you're absolutely right. It sounds ridiculous, but it really wouldn't be. Yeah, again, like with the names that are coming like Gorgi Jang at number five, who I think it is the first true beneficiary of the Barness factor for this franchise. In these rankings, he's number four in minutes played for the decade eleven twenty six, one of only four people who crested ten thousand, one of only four people who was above eighty two hundred. There has not been a lot of lengthy ten years for this last decade. But Jang was more than just there. He was a consistently solid, surprisingly versatile defender. He was a good midrade shooter who forced defenses to at least pay attention to him out to twenty ish feet. He never he never really pushed the boundaries of what he could do, probably both for better and for worse, And I think there's value in that there. I don't think playing with Tom Tiboeau helped him too much either, especially because of the devotion to TODJ. Gibson. Right, so you signed I don't know why if I still don't understand why that front office because it was the Tibodeau front office that signed him to the extension in twenty sixteen, I believe. So I don't understand the logic. There was just all kind of messed up. But like you said, he could hit long twos when he was at his best, and he always had a little bit more switched to him on defense than I think people realize, and so never this spectacular player, but he was just rock solid for a lot of the time. And you know, I think had he taken threes earlier, maybe there's more value here because he took them this season. Actually, he's shooting thirty five point nine percent from three on five point one attempts for thirty six minutes time split between the Timberwolves and the Memphis Grizzlies. And look, before he was traded to Memphis, he was shooting thirty eight point three percent on threes for Minnesota, and so he was having just another good year and that quietly should help him in these rankings, because yes, there's a longevity factor, but you just look at his numbers or his role. This season, he felt a little bit more important after two seasons of wallowing and relative obscurity, And I know his minutes per game definitely don't reflect this as much, but he's still playing more than he has over those pet he was still playing more excuse me, than he did during the past two seasons. And if you have that big who can now move on defense at least and then also space the floor for you on offense. There's just going to be inherent value there. And I think he's He's average at a lot of what you need from the position right now, and I think that that ends up being a really good thing. And I'll be interested to see it. Doesn't look like his role in Memphis is going to be too extensive, but I'll just be interested to see. You know, Goregy Jang is only thirty years old, like this is still someone that does he have like sort of the second phase of his career where we could see him bomb a few more threes. He has another year left on his deal. Again, I don't know that Memphis is going to view him as part of the rotation when you have Darren Jackson, Junior Clark, Jannis valanciunist there but not an expiring deal. I feel like the trademark it's going to be pretty pretty robust this summer because THEE Agency is so bad. I just I wonder if he kind of has a second act. I'm not saying he's gonna be worth a big deal when he hits THEREE agency in twenty twenty one, but I think this is a good player who's sort of been just in the wrong situation the past three years. I would say I'm willing to give Tom Thibodeau a lot of credit as a exes and O's coach, as an innovative basketball mind who came up with these pack the paint defense styles that have since propagated throughout the NBA and forced subsequent adjustments. Kudos to him for all of that, But he's always been a terrible manager of a roster, whether it's playing guys like lu All Dang way too many minutes, same with Jokim Noah, probably same with Derek Rose, or just showing too much loyalty to the players that he's always had. You know, we always made the jokes that when he was in Minnesota they became the Minnesota Bulls because he had to acquire all of his old players. Then he had to keep playing them big minutes. And I think that Jang was probably one of the biggest misfires of his time in Minnesota. I mean, we're talking about a guy who started every game in twenty sixteen seventeen, and for the second straight season with his understated contributions consistently made the team significantly better when he was on the court, and his reward in twenty seventeen eighteen was getting buried on the bench behind who player in Taj Gibson, who was an inferior option but had that familiarity with Tibbs and had that pre established relationship with Tibbs, and that came at Jang's expense, and I wish that he had have gotten a chance to continue growing during his athletic prime under a coach who actually valued him. And what's even just more curious about the decision is Thibodeau that that front office signs Jang to his extension before Tibodo technically ever coaches the team. But he's there, and so you know he's there, you know that he's on this contract, and then you go ahead and signed Josh Gibson anyway, so like that's a year, you fast forwarding a year. The thing with Tims too is and the athletics, Dave Dufour and I had a brief discussion about this a few weeks ago, is that he the other thing that's I think really hurt him is that he hasn't shown that he can adapt. And I've always defaulted that his offense isn't inventive enough, in part because he has that defensive reputation. And I always just kind of assumed that after the experience in Minnesota, when it became clear that those packed the paint schemes we're gonna give up a crap ton of threes aren't going to work anymore, that he would adjust. But he really has yet to show that he's willing to do that, and so that's not that's not a fair assumption to make. And so can you even give him the I guess if you want to give him the the XS and O savant label, you can, but then you really have to just factor in how just rigid he is or stubborn, because why haven't you changed yet? And so his next coaching stop, maybe it's the Knicks at this point, which we'll say a lot about the direction they're headed in. That'll be the ultimate litmus test for hey, is he willing to adjust everything? Really, and just particularly on defense, because what really helped him build up his reputation isn't working anymore. There needs to be You need to have more optionality, more wiggle room on defense, otherwise you're going to get the results that you did during his time in Minnesota, where it was they coughed up way too many threes. I can't say I expected to spend this much time on Gorgi Jang. He's apparently a very polarizing figure, good player, like I said, feels like the quintessential league average contributor at his position. And I think which dragged him down just in the larger scope, is that he was in the wrong spot, just clearly for you know, two plus seasons, at least two plus season. Number four, though, who do we have there? An even more controversial figure than Gorgy Jang, and even more divisive figure than Gorgy Jang. That is Andrew Wiggins. The fans actually had him up at number three, You had him at number four. I had him at number five. And I am now willing to retract the empty calories scoring comment about Kevin Martin because if there's anyone that that applies to, it's Andrew Wiggins. Yeah. I do. One of the things about Andrew Wiggins, I feel like I've just dumped all over him for too long that I almost don't want to do it anymore. That I've always found fascinating is one I just wonder how the lack of stability in Minnesota really really hurt him because he had like ninety different head coaches while he was there, and you're looking at the different iterations of the team. That makes it difficult just on so many, so many levels for someone who this basically this instability started from the jump, and so that's when you're most impressionable, and I would I would think that that has a major adverse impact on your development. The other thing that I found fascinating is I've never really understood that the more his role was simplified, it's the worst he seemed to get where And again, I don't know if it's just because he didn't stick with it or the team didn't stick with it for longer stretches, but when he felt like he was at his worst, even though he had Karl, Anthony Towns and Jimmy Butler on the roster with him, you would think that someone who's going to take some more catch and shoot looks, which he did during that time, that that would actually help him, and it really didn't seem to do that. And I'm fascinated to see if if he can be a better complimentary player with the Warriors, because I question whether he Kenny might be someone who's just more at home with the ball on his hands taking those difficult shots, and that's still going to be a problem because he's not hyper efficient in that role either. But it's just it's an interesting dynamic because what I think should be easier, easier circumstances, and better overall in terms of looking at the probability of success or a player, it does feel like Andrew Wiggins might just be like fall on that weird end of the spectrum. Yeah, I kind of view him as like a Montelli's guy, where he is just best with the ball in his hands, scoring a whole lot of points on bad teams, and that's okay. There's a that allows you to have a nice, long, lucrative career, and that's probably what Wiggins is going to have, even if he doesn't evolve whatsoever. He's very obviously a gifted scorer who can make difficult shots too, probably too many difficult shots, because it gives him confidence to keep taking difficult shots he shouldn't be taking. But until he commits himself to learning the basics on defense, until he commits to being a off ball energy guy who is willing to scrap for loose balls. Who's willing to try to get rebounds? Until he develops more passing vision, there's just not going to be that much value there. Kudos to him for and whether it's it seems like this is more incidental than deliberate, but there's always just some form of hope ascribed to him. We're talking about Andrew Wiggins. The Warrior season is done, so he has now played six years in the NBA and he's twenty five, which is still relatively young. But after six years, there's still people holding out hope that he could be. No, not the megastar that he was perhaps unfairly billed as coming out of Kansas, but his game just seems to engender hope. And even this season at the beginning, oh the Minnesota Summers are going to have him run a bunch of picking rolls. His passing is getting better, he looks like a more efficient player, and then it kind of tapers off. There's just the Andrew Wiggins experience is just so painfully unique and it's magnetic. I can't It's almost like I can't look away from it, or can't stop talking about him once you get on the topic, and I'm so very interested to see what ends up happening in Golden State next year, assuming he hasn't traded as part of some larger deal, and that that interest is only magnified too because of the prolific nature of his scoring ability. I mean, he's been given the opportunities to be a twenty point per game scorer consistently since the start of his career, and he has willingly taken those shots again, for better and for worse. And as you mentioned, he just finished his age or he is twenty five now, so he just finished his age twenty four season now that the Warriors year is officially over as you mentioned, which leads me to my trivia question of the episode, which is where does he rank all time in scoring through an age twenty four season? Are we talking about total points or points per total points? Total total points? Two? He's actually number nine. I thought it was gonna be something ridiculous that it was, because I remember when I would do those like searches, it would turn up like just Andrew Wiggins and Lebron James have averaged this. So yeah, it's it's definitely a modern thing. Just entering the league at a younger age and having those immediate roles, and you know the fast paced nature of today's game and all that. But the top ten is interesting, and the reason I wanted to ask that specific trivia question is also to highlight how empty those those points are. So the top ten, the top ten in scoring through an age twenty four season, Lebron, James, Kevin Durant, Carmelo Anthony, Kobe Bryant, Tracy McGrady, Anthony Davis, Shaquille O'Neal. The outlier here is Bob McAdoo because he actually did this in the seventies. Then Wiggins, then Janisan da Kompo. Now, if we sort those ten by wind shares through their age twenty four season and again with the caveat the wind shares are by no means a perfect stat but it does at least provide the baseline we're looking for here, Ready for this. Lebron eighty four point eight, Kevin Durant sixty nine point four, Kobe Bryant sixty two point eight, Anthony Davis sixty two point five, Tracy McGrady sixty point one, Shaquille O'Neil fifty six point three, Janis fifty three point two, Bob McAdoo forty nine point two, Mellow forty point eight, Wiggins fifteen. That's so bad? Doesn't that just about to say? At all? Here? There's I think you can make the case that, you know, he played on some some rough versions of the Denver Wolves, but that is that's a pretty huge discrepancy because like they won sixteen games his first year there. I believe that was Wiggins his first season. Yeah, so I get that the team was rough, but then that just really speaks to his inability to elevate even when he is playing well, Is he elevating that it we're scoring at all? Is he elevating the players around him? And the answer is probably, with the exception of the beginning of his season. No. The other Wiggins stat that I really like is, you know, I feel like every night when he plays, you can check the box score and see a gaudy point total with nothing else. So I was curious how many times he's had twenty plus points with no more than one rebound or assist, and he's actually only done at seven times, which surprises me. The all time leader is Kekey Vandaway, who has done it thirty times, followed by Reggie Miller at twenty nine and Jeff Malone at twenty eight. So he's still got a long way to go in that category, and I hope he never gets there, because if he doesn't, that will be a good indication for positive development in Golden State. But I also feel like we spent enough time talking about Andrew Wiggins, So I'm going to move us on to number three, which is Ricky Rubio. Number four for the fans, number three for both you and I. I don't know if I view Ricky Rubio's time with the Wolves as a success or not. It seemed like he was going to be much more than he became. He just as the teenage superstar playing in Spain, the fifth overall pick of the two thousand nine draft, and he he didn't develop the scoring chops that we might have hoped. That he was going to shot under forty percent from the field in each of his first five seasons, never became, still hasn't become a consistent three point shooter, even if he's progressed enough to at least draw some defensive attention. Since he's moved on from the Timberwolves with the Jazz and the Suns, but just a phenomenal passer who has consistently had some of the best vision in the NBA. I've always been particularly impressed by his ability to rack up assists while making tough passes and not turning the ball over. He tries things that other players aren't willing to try, but they're very much within his skill set and it allows him to kind of push the boundaries of what of the kind of passes the point guards make. And that's been that way since day one of his NBA tenure. Yeah, when you can watch some of the passes that he makes, the way he sees the floor is just ridiculous. There's always the Knox where what if he was more, even at a super low volume, just consistent shooter, set shooter to where defenses wouldn't leave him completely alone. And even when he's he always feels like he has this stretch maybe at the end of the season where he's shooting like between thirty six and forty percent on these stands, still threes, but it never really seems to last. I thought it was interesting how anti Ricky Rubio, Tom Thibodeaux actually seemed and I'm not sure what it was about his game that that earth Thibodeaux, he didn't play with the bulls. That's that's true too. And look that he does have a case of needs to look for his own shot more and I think he's gotten better at that when you look at some of his time in Utah and then with Phoenix as well, and you have to appreciate he's just wildly on the defensive end. This is someone who you know, you're not gonna say that he is an all an all defense candidate every single season, but he's going to be give you just above average stopping power at the point guard position, which does that mean a ton to people? Because point guards are just going to score and get there's anyway who who really knows, But he's just so active on his hands are really everywhere, and he's such a he seems like such a cerebral player, which is always sort of boggle my mind. Man, that he wasn't a better just score just because he is so smart, his finishes at the rim to seem more difficult than they need to be. And then again just the passiveness, not even with which he passes up open threes, but with which it seems like he just ignores these open lanes to the basket is always a fair knock against him, I think, and I do think you you typified it at the top, is what do you view his time in Minnesota? As to me, he's very clearly the third best player for them of the decade. But there's also just a level of potential unfulfilled here that you wouldn't expect to see. We're not going to see it really from the top two, but we see it here from from the third place guy, and you know, picked fifth overall. Like forget about two thousand and nine NBA draft itself, because there are players that would have gone in front of him. But it's one of those cases where has he provided the value of an average number five, top five pick. Probably I think he's there. It's like the Marvin Williams conundrum type deal, exactly exactly. I also think that it's nice that a guy who for his career has only scored eleven point three points per game kind of has a signature shot too, you know, I when you think of Ricky Rubio's scoring ability, if I'm allowed to use that word here, there's like some montage and nobly to his games, some Tony Parker to his game where he's really good at those off rhythm attacks where he'll go up off the wrong foot or he'll go a slight beat earlier than you expect it and make a scoop layup like that's just that's the shot that I see with him, where it's you know he's gonna get to the basket and managed to score through traffic because his rhythm is just slightly different, and it makes sense because as a great passer, he is someone who can control the rhythm of the half court set. My all time favorite Ricky Rubio moment is when he told Leived to change his face be happy, and that should be the number one moment in Ricky Rubio's career. I also love the when they made the timber was made the nine O, two and O style hype video after they traded Kevin Love and they had Daddy is Young and Wiggins and Anthony Bennett and Rubio and I think Lavigne on that team. That was. If you've never seen that, you should go back and look it was. There's a very dreamy shot of Ricky Rubio in that video. I highly suggest everyone watches it. The other Ricky Rubio moment that demands mentioned I think is you know, he the first couple of years in the NBA, he was the baby faced, clean cut point guard and then I forget which offseason it was, but he just kind of showed up with like a full beard and the pony tail, and it was like, Okay, this looks way different. Now do you remember that? Yeah? I do. And then just like he was basically he did like the Captain America aesthetic heel turn where it was he was kind of all clean cut, and then all of a sudden, you know, we get to Infinity War or was like, he's just like he's got the super super duper thick beard and had grown his his hair out. And so that's always what I like in it too. That's fair, And I just I wonder what his picking up the hammer moment is going to be. Oh it's yet to come, is what you're saying. It must be that definitely hasn't happened yet. And you take us to number two, which I think these spots will not be a mystery. I feel like we need to approach these top two together. Let's do it. So. Kevin Love was second across the board and Karl Anthony Towns was first across the board. When I was filling out my ballot, I thought it was going to be a tougher decision than it was, because Kevin Love almost unquestionably has the highest peak with Minnesota, that twenty ten eleven twenty eleven twelve stretch where he led the league in rebounding in the first season and then averaged ridiculously efficient twenty six points per game in the second and was on pace to at least challenge Kevin Garnett as the best player in franchise history. But when you look at the amount of time that they've spent with the franchise, I think that's where the separation starts. I mean, it feels like Love spent so much time in Minnesota, but it was only six seasons, and the first two of those don't even count for us in this particular exercise. So Towns, who is a generational and all time offensive talent at the five, is second in minutes played for the decade twelve thousand, three hundred seven. Love is down at fifth with only eight thousand, one hundred seventy one, and the Birness factor, even if they're fairly similar in terms of skill level made this an easy decision. I thought the I think it was an easy decision too. And there's a set Kevin Love definitely a better passer than Karl Anthony Towns, but karn Anthy Town's overall on offense blurs the lines between the way a wing and a big plays in ways that Kevin Love never did, because Karnthy Towns can really like just get moving off the dribble. And so I think that coupled with you know, two of Kevin Love seasons are excluded, but they're also they're probably the least impactful seasons of his career. Maybe that helps out. Towns just seems almost like he's become underrated naturally, where Kevin Love never it almost felt like he became this sympathetic figure nationally because the Wolves were just never good enough to get him to the playoffs. Whereas his Towns, it's just the focus on his bad defense, which you know, he's had like good moments, but unless you have two good or really good defenders in front of him, it just feels like he can't be your primary back line of defense. Everyone seems to zero win on that criticism. I don't know if that just says more about what the expectations were for him coming out of Kentucky, and so that also made this an easy decision for me. The one thing I will say about or quick couple of things about Kevin Love, it was good to kind of see a renaissances passing this year, which doesn't factor into our rankings because it feels like people forgot how good of a pastor he actually was. And then twenty thirteen twenty fourteen, Kevin Love, that is one of the best offensive NBA seasons in history. Twenty six point one points, four point four assists, shooting thirty seven point six percent on six point six three point attempts per game, just the one of two times that he shot over fifty percent from two in his career, the other time actually being this season, and he just kind of looked at the types of shots he was taking. There are the work that he could do out of the post, that the attention that he was getting from defenses, if you want to knock him a little bit, because on the perimeter he wasn't hitting these unassisted jumpers. That's just that feels more it's not the nature of his role. It's also just the nature of his position, and karl anthy Towns is going to get a ton of assisted looks. He just has a more mobility off the dribble than Kevin Love did. And so I do think this was an easy decision. But I also just want to highlight how ridiculously good Kevin Love was while he was in Minnesota. If twenty fourteen fifteen hadn't happened, I think that there's far more of a debate about whether he belongs a Sorry, if twenty twelve thirteen I was looking at the wrong line there hadn't happened, I think there's far more of a debate about whether he belonged to the number one spot. Because that was the year that he fractured his shooting hand before the season started, came back five weeks later, couldn't shoot I mean thirty five point two percent from the field, twenty one point seven percent from three point range, fractured it again, and ended up sitting out and only playing eighteen games. It's impressive that he followed that up with that twenty thirteen fourteen masterpiece, But had he been able to stay healthy and not allow for that lapse between the twenty eleven twelve season, the twenty thirteen fourteen season and had four straight years of fringe MVP caliber play. Then I think we have a discussion or did they make the playoffs in at least one of those years? You know, twenty thirteen twenty fourteen seams like the biggest missed opportunity. If I'm not mistaken, I would have been interested to see that twenty twenty thirteen team with him where you had Andre carolinkover for most of the year. That would have been interesting. And you know, you peek Peck at that point and your boy ridden hour, don't forget about him and had a good season that year. So maybe there's like kind of missed out expectations there because of the injuries that he suffered. But had he been the one to end the playoff route instead of Jimmy Butler and we're kind of looking at him in that in that vein, I wonder if that would have helped him out at all. Right, I mean they won thirty one games during that season that he basically missed, which did leave them pretty far outside the playoffs picture. It took it took forty five wins to get in that year. I'm not sure that he alone would have been worth fourteen wins, but it would have been close. He also had Ricky Ruby only played in fifty seven games that year. There's a lot of other contexts that goes into it. But if if you're winning thirty one games when Kevin Love only plays in eighteen, and then effectively Nicola Pekovic is your leading scorer, then you're playing a completely different way. If that's if that's how the offense shifted. So I don't think it would have been, but I would have liked to have seen him on that team. Agreed, And yeah, even if he did stay healthy and continued playing at such a high level, it is tough to catch Towns here because again, like just a generational offensive talent. And I during the All Time one on one tournament that we did at NBA MATH, I was consistently getting frustrated with people who questioned why Towns was still winning matchups and beating these Hall of Fame big men against him. He was he was matched, and I was like, no, that's that's pretty valid. I mean, how are you going to stop him from scoring in a one on one setting? This is a guy who can put the ball on the floor. Far better than almost any five in NBA history. It's a guy who can create his own step back three pointers and make them, a guy who can dazzle you in the post. He's the complete offensive package. Yeah, he he is. I don't know if I would say he's underrated, but I think there's far You'll get far more pushback if you say Carl Anthony town is a top ten player right now and this season specifically just because of the injuries. No, but if you say Karlthontown is the top ten player, You're going to get way more pushback than I think that you should. I think that's a great way to put it. Yeah, it is probably the best way to put it. Are you ready so that we can keep this under an hour? Just like you remind everyone what other podcasts are spending basically an hour to single teams. Just throw that out there if you want to rate, review and subscribe to us wherever you get your podcasts. Anyway, Do you want to take us through the honorable mentions for the Zimberwolves. I would love to so. At number eleven, we had TODJ. Gibson and these are the honorable mentions for the fan vote only just to make that clear, since Dan and I only go ten deep on these. Eleven is TODJ. Gibson, twelve is D'Angelo Russell. Thirteen is a tie between Jeff Teague and Robert Covington, which feels both weird and appropriate. Fifteen is another weird but appropriate tie between Corey Brewer and Kevin Garnett. Seventeen is Taias Jones. Eighteen a tie between Anthony Tolliver and Luke Ridnour. Twenty is a tie between Alexei Shved and Michael Beasley. Twenty two a tie between andre Kirolanko and Jarrett Culver. Twenty four is a three way tie between Al Jefferson, Josh Akogi, and Johnny Flynn, and then twenty seven is a bigger tie between lu All Dang, Malik Beasley, Nmania, the Eliza, Ronnie Turiaff and Sam Cassell. Thirty two is Robbie Hummel and Wayne Ellington, and thirty four is JJ Barea and Naz Reid. I'm tempted to not even include JJ Barea because, as we've established in previous podcasts, his time with the Minnesota Timber never happened. He has only ever played for the Dahouse Mavericks. Respect to someone voting for Al Jefferson, even though he doesn't have a single season with the Timberwolves that falls under this purview. I guess he was at least there in the year twenty ten because of two thousand nine two ten, But shout out to him and shout out to the Jared Culver believer, just throwing him in there as an honorable mention at all. Really rough rookie season for him, even though his offensive efficiency picked up, and I still believe in him as as a defender. So those were some interesting names. We hope you enjoyed this podcast. We will be back next time with this series will be on to the New Orleans Pelicans again. We're closing in on the twenty fifth team and then after New Orleans Pelicans, we will go right to the Oklahoma City Thunder because that is definitely the natural progression of teams in the NBA going alphabetically. Until next time on behalf of myself and Adam. I leave you with the shout out too the one the only NBA champion and Wolves legend, Ronnie Sugar, Ray, Leonard, Roberto Duran, Marvelous, Marvin Hagler and Thomas Hearns, legends whose four way rivalry define one of the greatest errors in boxing history, relive their decade of dominance in the new Showtime Sports documentary The Kings, a four part series premiering Sunday, June sixth, only on Showtime