WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:04.440 They say that this is why we should not have any accounting of how the 2 00:00:04.440 --> 00:00:08.160 money is spent. Yeah, Elan, it's judy. And here's the basic 3 00:00:08.279 --> 00:00:14.880 argument. It's that we have to rush resources to Ukraine immediately or they're liable 4 00:00:14.880 --> 00:00:20.359 to fall to Russian aggression. And it's all basically an argument made under the 5 00:00:20.399 --> 00:00:25.719 gun that unless you approve this appropriation of resources and weapons, then you will 6 00:00:25.760 --> 00:00:29.559 allow Russia to win. So it's a kind of moral blackmail. And you 7 00:00:29.600 --> 00:00:33.920 know, every negative story that comes out of Ukraine, every item of corruption 8 00:00:34.000 --> 00:00:37.479 that David and Mike have just pointed to, these things sort of get brushed 9 00:00:37.520 --> 00:00:41.960 under the rug. And if you don't support this, then you want Vladimir 10 00:00:41.960 --> 00:00:45.920 Putin to win. And that's the moral framing here. So the other argument 11 00:00:45.960 --> 00:00:49.320 that you sometimes hear folks make, Elon is that the money has been entirely 12 00:00:49.479 --> 00:00:53.679 well accounted for. And even some of our Senate Republican colleagues, in private 13 00:00:53.759 --> 00:00:59.560 and meetings with a bomb administration senior sorry Biden administration senior officials, will say, 14 00:00:59.679 --> 00:01:03.520 well, well, this has been the most properly accounted for money in 15 00:01:03.560 --> 00:01:07.280 the history of any American conflict. It doesn't even pass the smell test, 16 00:01:07.439 --> 00:01:10.959 and they'll admit to you that it's a complete lie when you push them on 17 00:01:11.040 --> 00:01:15.319 it. But it becomes this sort of sunk cost fallacy where these guys can't 18 00:01:15.359 --> 00:01:19.680 admit that there is corruption, they can't admit that there's no strategy, they 19 00:01:19.719 --> 00:01:23.599 can't admit that this isn't going well because if they admitted that, it would 20 00:01:23.640 --> 00:01:27.239 cause too much psychological harm and it has to cut bait. Well, what 21 00:01:27.280 --> 00:01:33.239 about even retroactive examination. You know, if there's an urgency for the money, 22 00:01:33.439 --> 00:01:36.680 the one can understand, okay, the you know, if your crane's 23 00:01:36.680 --> 00:01:38.040 going to fall a pot without saying the money, then there should at least 24 00:01:38.040 --> 00:01:44.680 be a subsequent accounting and accountability for where the funds are sent and prosecution and 25 00:01:44.680 --> 00:01:48.159 where there is corruption. That's where they fall back on the argument that the 26 00:01:48.159 --> 00:01:51.840 money's already properly accounted for. It's a bit of a logical whack a mole 27 00:01:51.879 --> 00:01:53.719 where you say, you know, and you know, Mike and I and 28 00:01:53.840 --> 00:01:57.560 Josh Holly and I have had amendments to this effect where you appoint a special 29 00:01:57.560 --> 00:02:04.400 Investigator general because that similar figure uncovered a ton of corruption that was unknowned Afghanistan, 30 00:02:04.799 --> 00:02:08.879 and the argument is you need to actually embolden an independent accountant to David's 31 00:02:08.879 --> 00:02:13.800 point, to go in there and look at the corruption. The response you 32 00:02:13.840 --> 00:02:17.520 get then as well, you don't actually need it because the money's already properly 33 00:02:17.520 --> 00:02:23.639 accounted for. I think in reality what's going on is that folks appreciate that 34 00:02:23.680 --> 00:02:29.080 if we did have a Fullthome inquiry into corruption Ukraine, it would completely erode 35 00:02:29.120 --> 00:02:32.120 what little public will existed. So you're always sort of dealing with what seemed 36 00:02:32.120 --> 00:02:36.560 to be bad faith arguments because I think if people dealt with the truth, 37 00:02:36.639 --> 00:02:39.520 then the political support for this thing would evaporate. Say to Elon, this 38 00:02:39.599 --> 00:02:43.120 is the set of Ron Johnson. Can I just add a comment here? 39 00:02:43.479 --> 00:02:46.919 Sure? One of the depraved justifications for all this spending is that it's really 40 00:02:46.919 --> 00:02:52.120 not going over to Ukraine. It's helping build our industrial base and so it's 41 00:02:52.159 --> 00:02:55.319 creating jobs in your state. And I call that a deprave justification because that's 42 00:02:55.360 --> 00:03:00.560 exactly what it is in terms of accountability. I just read your the book 43 00:03:00.759 --> 00:03:04.919 from Walter Isaacson, and I was very intrigued by your idiot index and one 44 00:03:04.960 --> 00:03:07.639 of the things I've one of things I pointed out in to my colleagues and 45 00:03:07.680 --> 00:03:12.479 didn't have much of an impact. For example, the one hundred and fifty 46 00:03:12.479 --> 00:03:15.879 five millimeters shells that Russia can produce about four and a half million of them, 47 00:03:16.400 --> 00:03:20.680 We're not even up to a million a year. Okay, Russia, 48 00:03:20.919 --> 00:03:24.080 they're producing those a six hundred dollars shell, which I would say probably sales 49 00:03:24.080 --> 00:03:29.080 are pretty high idiot index in the US or in the West, it costs 50 00:03:29.159 --> 00:03:32.560 US five to six thousand a shell. So I mean, I've got more 51 00:03:32.599 --> 00:03:36.439 to say, have a different perspective having been to Ukraine a lot, But 52 00:03:36.719 --> 00:03:39.800 I just want to add that in terms of accountability, we spend and you 53 00:03:39.840 --> 00:03:45.919 know, we waste so much money in our military industrial complex, and our 54 00:03:45.960 --> 00:03:50.199 colleagues really don't want to dig into it because they're the ones voting for this 55 00:03:50.360 --> 00:03:53.879 eight hundred and eighty billion dollars. And that's one of the questions I asked 56 00:03:53.919 --> 00:03:55.879 too, is well, why don't what do we get for the eight hundred 57 00:03:55.879 --> 00:04:00.000 and eighty billion dollars? And if we're going to spend sixty on Ukraine, 58 00:04:00.360 --> 00:04:03.319 can't we spend less somewhere else? And that's just not even on the table. 59 00:04:03.639 --> 00:04:08.240 Can I ask a follo up question about the ammunition issue. What we're 60 00:04:08.240 --> 00:04:13.120 talking about here is artillery ammunition. The war in Ukraine is it's a war 61 00:04:13.159 --> 00:04:17.279 of attrition in which the main weapon is artillery. And one of the reasons 62 00:04:17.360 --> 00:04:23.839 why the Ukrainians are losing, really the main reason is that they're massively outgunned 63 00:04:23.879 --> 00:04:28.800 by the Russians. I've seen reports that the Russians are expending something like ten 64 00:04:28.879 --> 00:04:34.040 thousand artillery shells a day and the Ukrainians have at most about two thousand shells 65 00:04:34.040 --> 00:04:39.040 that they can use per day. This is why the Biden administration sent cluster 66 00:04:39.120 --> 00:04:44.120 bombs to Ukraine several months ago, because they said that Ukraine was out of 67 00:04:44.399 --> 00:04:48.240 the one hundred and fifty five millimeters artillery ammunition. I guess, I guess 68 00:04:48.240 --> 00:04:54.000 the Pentagon has been trying to increase production of artillery shells, but we still 69 00:04:54.160 --> 00:04:58.199 produce nowhere near enough. I think we've basically increased our production. I've seen 70 00:04:58.279 --> 00:05:01.720 reports from about fourteen thousand month to about twenty two thousand a month, which 71 00:05:01.759 --> 00:05:05.879 is really that's only a two or three day supply in the Ukraine War, 72 00:05:06.079 --> 00:05:11.600 And like you were alluding to, Senator Johnson, the Pentagon, I think 73 00:05:11.639 --> 00:05:16.120 they have a goal of twenty twenty to get production to about eighty five thousand 74 00:05:16.160 --> 00:05:21.160 shells a month. So we're nowhere close to being able to ramp up production 75 00:05:21.759 --> 00:05:27.000 to the needs of Ukraine in this war. So I guess my question for 76 00:05:27.040 --> 00:05:30.240 you is, even if we do appropriate another sixty billion, you know, 77 00:05:30.279 --> 00:05:34.199 we can print more money, but we can't print more artillery shells. That 78 00:05:34.279 --> 00:05:40.399 just takes years and years. So how is this money going to help Ukraine 79 00:05:40.759 --> 00:05:45.319 to win a war that, again they're losing because it's an artillery duel. 80 00:05:45.720 --> 00:05:48.519 First of all, I think we all have to understand that Vladimir Putin will 81 00:05:48.519 --> 00:05:51.839 not lose a swar I stayed bad way as opposed to Ukraine can win. 82 00:05:51.920 --> 00:05:57.639 Vlatdimir Putin will not lose. Losing to Vlatimir Putin is existential. To Vladimir 83 00:05:57.759 --> 00:06:00.680 Putin. They rush is four times the population, they have a much larger 84 00:06:00.720 --> 00:06:04.560 industrial base. Again, I said Russia can produce four point five million of 85 00:06:04.600 --> 00:06:08.639 those shells a year. We're not even up to a million a year. 86 00:06:09.040 --> 00:06:12.800 The average age of a Ukrainian soldier right now is forty three years old. 87 00:06:13.240 --> 00:06:15.360 And David, I heard you quote the Time magazine article. There are other 88 00:06:15.439 --> 00:06:20.720 quotes from some of the tops somestops aids say that even if the US and 89 00:06:20.759 --> 00:06:24.879 his allies come through with all the weapons they have pledged, quote, we 90 00:06:24.920 --> 00:06:28.800 don't have the men to use them unquote. So the fact of the matter 91 00:06:28.839 --> 00:06:31.199 is, if you're worried about the people of Ukraine, you have to understand 92 00:06:31.279 --> 00:06:34.959 that probably about one hundred thousand of their soldiers have been killed because there have 93 00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:40.000 been about one hundred thousand Russian conscripts. I take no joy in that forty 94 00:06:40.040 --> 00:06:44.920 thousand civilians, hundreds of billions of dollars of Ukraine has been destroyed. The 95 00:06:44.959 --> 00:06:48.759 only way this war ends is in a settlement. And every day that the 96 00:06:48.800 --> 00:06:55.040 war goes on, more Ukrainians, more Russian conscripts die, more civilians die, 97 00:06:55.240 --> 00:06:58.680 more of Ukrainian gets destroyed. They'll have to be built. So again, 98 00:06:59.160 --> 00:07:02.759 sending sixty billion dollars has added few of the flames of a bloody stalemate. 99 00:07:03.279 --> 00:07:10.879 Makes no sense whatsoever. As evil a war criminals putin is He's not 100 00:07:10.920 --> 00:07:14.519 going to lose this war, and our colleagues here just aren't willing to accept 101 00:07:14.560 --> 00:07:16.959 that reality, and they're living in a fantasy world think that Ukraine can win 102 00:07:17.000 --> 00:07:20.600 this thing. They can't David, that's exactly right. I think that that 103 00:07:20.680 --> 00:07:26.120 is an excellent summary of the situation. When I raised this point, people 104 00:07:26.240 --> 00:07:29.839 of course accused me of being some sort of polity, when in fact my 105 00:07:29.879 --> 00:07:34.120 companies have probably done more to make I mean, undermine Russia than anything. 106 00:07:34.240 --> 00:07:38.639 I mean, SpaceX's has taken away two thirds of the Russian launch business, 107 00:07:38.959 --> 00:07:45.639 the overwhelmingly helped Ukraine. I mean, it's a such an episode accusation. 108 00:07:46.000 --> 00:07:49.040 My concern is exactly where you articulated. If you have an extended war of 109 00:07:49.040 --> 00:07:53.639 attrition, every day that goes by, there are Ukrainian boys that are and 110 00:07:53.720 --> 00:07:57.519 not even boyis Ingmo because they're running out of boys. That you're losing. 111 00:07:57.959 --> 00:08:01.519 Ukraine's losing people every day. And if you're going to spend lives, it 112 00:08:01.600 --> 00:08:05.680 must be for a purpose and not just you know, a mile here, 113 00:08:05.759 --> 00:08:07.600 a mile there. In fact, a mile and back forth. The lines 114 00:08:07.639 --> 00:08:13.639 aren't moving, so just every day people die for what purpose? And as 115 00:08:13.639 --> 00:08:16.439 you said, there is no way in hell that Putin is going to lose. 116 00:08:16.480 --> 00:08:18.079 If he were to back off, he would be assassinated. And for 117 00:08:18.079 --> 00:08:22.199 those who want regime change in Russia, they should think about who is the 118 00:08:22.199 --> 00:08:24.279 person that should take out Putin, and is that person likely to be a 119 00:08:24.319 --> 00:08:30.439 peace neck. Probably not. They're probably going to be even even more hardcore 120 00:08:30.439 --> 00:08:33.159 than Putin if they took him out. So yeah, yeah, So I'm 121 00:08:33.159 --> 00:08:37.799 going to jump in with one freight just point that leaves up where you lined 122 00:08:37.879 --> 00:08:39.720 there was just I think there's an issue with our framing here. I think 123 00:08:39.759 --> 00:08:43.120 most of us here, and it is too bad because I think I publicly 124 00:08:43.120 --> 00:08:46.679 called, and Elon did, and others did. I think JD tried to 125 00:08:46.679 --> 00:08:50.399 get somebody in here to articulate the best of the other side. So hopefully, 126 00:08:50.440 --> 00:08:52.799 for as long as we go, that offer remains open. But with 127 00:08:52.919 --> 00:08:58.200 that being said, I think that the framing even here amongst those of us 128 00:08:58.240 --> 00:09:01.840 who agree on a post using this bill, is a little too charitable, 129 00:09:03.039 --> 00:09:05.000 actually, right, because I think that if there's good number of Democrats, 130 00:09:05.000 --> 00:09:07.919 good number of Republicans whore in favor of more funding to Ukraine, endless funding 131 00:09:07.919 --> 00:09:13.679 to Ukraine, but I think those who are generally against it point to what 132 00:09:13.720 --> 00:09:16.440 we think of as absence of what we will get from the added investment. 133 00:09:16.879 --> 00:09:20.360 Right, that's the argument that goes. Okay, the ROI is lower than 134 00:09:20.399 --> 00:09:26.720 the acceptable level of return for US taxpayer dollars, and what are we getting 135 00:09:26.759 --> 00:09:28.840 in return for the money we're putting it. I actually think that's the wrong 136 00:09:28.960 --> 00:09:33.840 framing. I think it is actually net negative for the United States to continue 137 00:09:33.840 --> 00:09:39.519 funding this war, irrespective of the financial cost, for some of the reasons 138 00:09:39.559 --> 00:09:41.960 Elon just laid out. First of all, if you are shooting for regime 139 00:09:43.039 --> 00:09:46.720 change in Russia, which I do believe is the ideological goal here, the 140 00:09:46.759 --> 00:09:48.720 net result you're likely to get is actually one that is far worse than Putin 141 00:09:48.759 --> 00:09:52.759 who's leading Russia. Play that out and the second result and the result that 142 00:09:52.799 --> 00:09:56.600 you're getting right now in real time. So regime change absolutely, and you're 143 00:09:56.600 --> 00:10:00.600 not supposed to say it out loud, but it's worth smoking out. That 144 00:10:00.759 --> 00:10:03.759 is the only ultimate stated goal of this project. So you're playing for an 145 00:10:03.799 --> 00:10:07.960 outcome that odds are is worse than the one you already have for the United 146 00:10:07.000 --> 00:10:11.440 States. But even worse is what you're seeing in the present is a daily 147 00:10:11.519 --> 00:10:16.840 strengthening of the military alliance between Russia and China, which when combined, is 148 00:10:16.879 --> 00:10:20.879 the single greatest increase for the risk of World War III that we've seen in 149 00:10:20.919 --> 00:10:24.519 the post World War two era, and is a risk that by definition then 150 00:10:24.639 --> 00:10:30.159 increases the risk of the continued existence of the United States should that world war 151 00:10:30.200 --> 00:10:33.039 actually, God forbid transpire. And I'm not saying it's likely to happen. 152 00:10:33.279 --> 00:10:37.360 Any risk or any more than minuscule risk of that happening is an unacceptable risk, 153 00:10:37.480 --> 00:10:43.799 and we are actively increasing the risk of that worst case outcome, not 154 00:10:43.159 --> 00:10:48.320 just through the loss of financial dollars for ourselves, but irrespective of that financial 155 00:10:48.360 --> 00:10:54.399 cost, we are contributing to the increase of that risk versus a diplomatic resolution. 156 00:10:54.679 --> 00:10:56.159 So then the question is, you know, and I know, it's 157 00:10:56.159 --> 00:10:58.480 too bad we don't have somebody from the other side here, But we can 158 00:10:58.639 --> 00:11:01.639 ask the question of why you know, We can ask the same question. 159 00:11:01.720 --> 00:11:03.639 We can pretend this was a discussion about the border right now and have the 160 00:11:03.679 --> 00:11:07.200 same discussion about why do we have an open border on our southern border. 161 00:11:07.440 --> 00:11:11.039 And I think that there's a deliberateness to all of this, right, And 162 00:11:11.080 --> 00:11:15.360 if you miss I think the deliberate nature of this nothing makes sense. But 163 00:11:15.399 --> 00:11:16.960 I think if you understand that, I think everything makes sense. The question 164 00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:24.120 of David, right, why are we contributing intentionally without accounting for known corruption 165 00:11:24.759 --> 00:11:28.679 there's a certain deliberate goal here, just as there is with our own southern 166 00:11:28.720 --> 00:11:31.559 border right now. Right you can throw your hands in the air and ask 167 00:11:31.639 --> 00:11:37.440 why is it that we are purposefully or why is it that we're negligently allowing 168 00:11:37.799 --> 00:11:39.919 millions of people to cross our own southern border. That doesn't make sense unless 169 00:11:39.960 --> 00:11:43.360 you realize that's actually part of the objective. And I think the same thing 170 00:11:43.399 --> 00:11:46.360 goes for this Ukraine war. And I think that's why JD's finding in the 171 00:11:46.440 --> 00:11:52.000 last twenty four hours is so interesting, is that one of the apparently deliberate 172 00:11:52.000 --> 00:11:54.759 elements here is that and I don't think it's even the main one, but 173 00:11:54.799 --> 00:11:58.799 I think it's at least a feature that reflects a certain deliberate course of action. 174 00:11:58.480 --> 00:12:03.519 Is that they're planning the seeds for what does seem to be the third 175 00:12:03.559 --> 00:12:07.159 impeachment of Donald Trump. And so, you know, I mean, I'm 176 00:12:07.200 --> 00:12:11.720 going to lay out what my actual position is, which probably shouldn't matter because 177 00:12:11.960 --> 00:12:16.279 unlike JD and like Lee and Ron Johnson, who are actually successful in getting 178 00:12:16.279 --> 00:12:18.720 elected to the positions they ran for which I was not, you know, 179 00:12:18.759 --> 00:12:22.159 perhaps my view on this should matter less. But I'm going to lay it 180 00:12:22.200 --> 00:12:26.960 out anyway. I don't think that our position should be getting border security into 181 00:12:26.960 --> 00:12:31.759 the bill as a condition. I think we need to force border security and 182 00:12:31.799 --> 00:12:35.440 not send money to Ukraine without co mingling a compromise on either of those things. 183 00:12:35.639 --> 00:12:37.840 But I think the gambit or the play here that would be interesting, 184 00:12:39.000 --> 00:12:41.679 And I'd love to hear JD's and Ron's and Mike's reaction to this is like, 185 00:12:41.759 --> 00:12:45.120 just I mean, because you guys have a vote. What tonight is 186 00:12:45.159 --> 00:12:48.799 it, JD? Or is it tomorrow night? Right? Yeah, so 187 00:12:48.960 --> 00:12:52.200 just in the interest of the super near term, I mean, here's a 188 00:12:52.200 --> 00:12:54.759 gambit that you know. I don't favor this as a matter of policy, 189 00:12:54.799 --> 00:12:58.279 but I favor this as a matter of negotiation. Is you know, the 190 00:12:58.320 --> 00:13:01.399 play is here. Okay, we had this whole discussion about border funding, 191 00:13:01.440 --> 00:13:05.360 and what I found so ridiculous about that last Border Attached bill is they got 192 00:13:05.360 --> 00:13:09.200 to name it a border bill when actually there was three times more funding going 193 00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:13.399 to protecting the border of Ukraine than our own southern border. When in fact, 194 00:13:13.440 --> 00:13:16.360 even in our own southern border's case, the real failure is the failure 195 00:13:16.360 --> 00:13:20.360 to enforce the existing laws like remain in Mexico, which is still the law 196 00:13:20.399 --> 00:13:24.240 of the land. I wonder if the following would be an interesting wrench here, 197 00:13:24.279 --> 00:13:26.559 and I doubt the other side would go for it, but it'd be 198 00:13:26.600 --> 00:13:30.960 interesting to smoke out what the intentions are, what the deliberate nature of all 199 00:13:31.000 --> 00:13:33.440 of this is, say, okay, here's the border deal. We want 200 00:13:33.480 --> 00:13:39.399 not even more funding. A precondition for passing this is a commitment from the 201 00:13:39.440 --> 00:13:45.399 Biden administration to enforce existing laws, including remain in Mexico, tangible evidence has 202 00:13:45.399 --> 00:13:48.759 table stakes for talking about any further funding to Ukraine. And then on the 203 00:13:48.840 --> 00:13:56.679 funding to Ukraine, it's metered out over time and it is completely discretionary at 204 00:13:56.679 --> 00:14:01.200 the level of the US Commander in chief the US President that they know that 205 00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:03.440 if it's metered out over time, right, it's not going to go out. 206 00:14:03.600 --> 00:14:05.879 And President Trump is able to then be at the table to negotiate an 207 00:14:07.000 --> 00:14:11.799 end to this. He can use the withholding of those funds as one of 208 00:14:11.799 --> 00:14:15.519 the levers and what will be a complex negotiation. To be clear, I'm 209 00:14:15.519 --> 00:14:18.000 dead set opposed to giving another dime to Ukraine. I think we need a 210 00:14:18.039 --> 00:14:22.639 peaceful resolution right now. But pragmatically speaking, I think that's I think the 211 00:14:22.639 --> 00:14:26.799 way we bring the border into This is less about the token funding to the 212 00:14:26.840 --> 00:14:31.519 border, which really I think is likely to go to not be enforced anyway. 213 00:14:31.519 --> 00:14:35.120 If the current administration is not enforcing the existing laws on the books, 214 00:14:35.480 --> 00:14:37.440 I think that biloves us to wonder whether they're going to enforce a new law 215 00:14:37.480 --> 00:14:41.720 that we put on the books to say that's table stakes for having the discussion 216 00:14:41.799 --> 00:14:46.200 is seeing at least existing enforcement of the border laws of our own border, 217 00:14:46.600 --> 00:14:48.039 and if we are going to fund Ukraine and JD. This is the piece 218 00:14:48.080 --> 00:14:52.480 that I think maybe smokes out the gem of a finding that you fed your 219 00:14:52.480 --> 00:14:56.799 team or you found in the last couple of days, is to say that 220 00:14:56.840 --> 00:15:00.320 we're going to meter this out and if there is a new president that is 221 00:15:00.360 --> 00:15:03.840 going to negotiate piece in Ukraine as we think actually needs to happen, then 222 00:15:03.080 --> 00:15:07.279 we're going to actually make this discretionary of that president to actually do. So 223 00:15:07.600 --> 00:15:11.480 what do you think? This is very similar? This is Mike Lee, 224 00:15:11.480 --> 00:15:16.200 This is very similar to what all Republican senators agreed to do months ago. 225 00:15:16.240 --> 00:15:20.200 We're dragging like three months ago was just to say we're not going to give 226 00:15:20.200 --> 00:15:26.279 it another dime to Ukraine until at a minimum such time, we shouldn't even 227 00:15:26.360 --> 00:15:31.840 consider it until such time as the president's enforcing existing laws already on the books 228 00:15:31.840 --> 00:15:33.960 that already give him the power to enforce the border, just as they did 229 00:15:35.080 --> 00:15:37.080 empower Generald Trump to do it, and he used it to enforce the border. 230 00:15:37.440 --> 00:15:41.159 That's what we committed to three months ago. We were then told that 231 00:15:41.240 --> 00:15:46.039 we would see a bill that was being negotiated as soon as it was ready. 232 00:15:46.440 --> 00:15:50.039 That took three or four months to negotiate. We were demanding to see 233 00:15:50.120 --> 00:15:52.960 language the entire time it was kept from us. We saw it for the 234 00:15:52.000 --> 00:15:56.960 first time Sunday night at seven pm Eatern time. It was woefully deficient. 235 00:15:56.039 --> 00:16:00.200 In fact, he didn't even match the description of what we had added to 236 00:16:00.600 --> 00:16:06.480 begin with. It didn't do anything to harness the fervor in favor of Ukraine, 237 00:16:06.600 --> 00:16:10.799 aid to leverage that to put us in a position where Biden was forced 238 00:16:10.799 --> 00:16:14.519 to secure the border, and so we demanded that it do so before we 239 00:16:14.559 --> 00:16:18.120 proceed. What's tragedic here, Vivik, is that although every single Republican senator 240 00:16:18.120 --> 00:16:22.840 agreed to that, and every single Republican senator a post cloture on the motion 241 00:16:22.879 --> 00:16:26.799 to proceed to this a couple months ago, with that commitment under in mind 242 00:16:26.799 --> 00:16:30.519 that we made to each other and to our voters, team of our Senate 243 00:16:30.519 --> 00:16:34.480 Republican colleagues have now backed away from that and have supported cloture at various stages 244 00:16:34.519 --> 00:16:41.279 of this bill, supporting this bill without anything, without any commitment, without 245 00:16:41.279 --> 00:16:45.120 any promise, without any leverage over the President, without conditioning the release of 246 00:16:45.159 --> 00:16:49.759 any Ukraine funding on this, even though a majority of our conference supported that 247 00:16:49.879 --> 00:16:56.399 and expressed that apparently they were directed by Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell not to 248 00:16:56.480 --> 00:17:00.679 even bring this up in the conversations. The fact that we learned only recently 249 00:17:00.960 --> 00:17:04.119 this is exactly why we've got to get out of this. This is exactly 250 00:17:04.200 --> 00:17:07.440 why we have to oppose quoture on this, and we have to defeat this. 251 00:17:07.839 --> 00:17:11.599 So we look at the incentives, But why did these guys do it? 252 00:17:11.920 --> 00:17:15.920 Fidelity does matter more than the facts and the internal reward from committee chairs 253 00:17:15.920 --> 00:17:22.519 and Pentagon elites to fill the void after Afghanistan. This is fertilizer for the 254 00:17:22.559 --> 00:17:26.519 ego of a precious few around here. Look, we don't say no anymore, 255 00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:30.640 in part because we've just taken to this nasty habit of printing money like 256 00:17:30.680 --> 00:17:33.519 there's no tomorrow, and it's yes to the foolish and yes to the frenzied, 257 00:17:33.599 --> 00:17:37.720 yes to the blind. We need to reset, and not a minute 258 00:17:37.759 --> 00:17:41.319 too soon. We need Senators to become aware of and willing to exercise yet 259 00:17:41.359 --> 00:17:45.720 again, their privileges, their prerogatives under the Senate rules. I've been working 260 00:17:45.759 --> 00:17:48.640 on a project to inform them of that, and I'd love to talk about 261 00:17:48.640 --> 00:17:52.160 that on another occasion. But look, no, no, it is absolutely 262 00:17:52.200 --> 00:17:55.839 the position. But I think if you're to just smoke out and isolate this 263 00:17:56.000 --> 00:17:59.720 sort of new issue, which I find pretty fascinating in the last day that 264 00:18:00.200 --> 00:18:02.880 Jaden, that memo that JD put out, what do you think would be 265 00:18:02.920 --> 00:18:03.480 the respon? I mean, I guess you guys have time to try it. 266 00:18:03.480 --> 00:18:07.440 You're in a position to say, all right, if the funding is 267 00:18:07.880 --> 00:18:11.160 if no, our position is we think a piece deal needs to be negotiated 268 00:18:11.160 --> 00:18:14.160 now. But that's up to the US president and that isn't happening. We 269 00:18:14.240 --> 00:18:17.880 are hopefully going to have a new US president in about eleven months, all 270 00:18:17.960 --> 00:18:19.839 right, so that funding is sufficiently metered out, then most of it doesn't 271 00:18:19.880 --> 00:18:22.440 go out the door in the next eleven months, and if the next US 272 00:18:22.519 --> 00:18:26.160 president is at the table, then at least he has the flexibility to use 273 00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:30.599 this as a lever. What do you think would happen. Do you think 274 00:18:30.599 --> 00:18:33.559 that those colleagues would say, oh, this urgent funding for Ukraine is so 275 00:18:33.720 --> 00:18:36.759 important to achieve our goals, which I haven't disagree with, but they would 276 00:18:36.799 --> 00:18:37.960 say it's so important to achieve our goals that we're going to say yes, 277 00:18:38.240 --> 00:18:41.519 and that yes, that's that important that even if Donald Trump can revisit this 278 00:18:41.599 --> 00:18:45.119 when he's the next president, he has the total discretion to do that. 279 00:18:45.279 --> 00:18:49.880 Make it discretionary rather than non discretionary. What would they say, you know, 280 00:18:51.039 --> 00:18:53.960 no, we're not going to go for that. They and they rehiques 281 00:18:55.039 --> 00:18:57.240 to do it as long as they have an open opportunity to do this at 282 00:18:57.279 --> 00:19:00.640 a lower price, as long as they don't have to jump through those hurdles. 283 00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:03.880 The Democrats are never going to have negotiate on that. And as long 284 00:19:03.880 --> 00:19:08.079 as we've got eighteen Republicans or more than ten in the current climate, on 285 00:19:08.119 --> 00:19:11.559 this bill, then we are never going to get to that moment because they 286 00:19:11.599 --> 00:19:15.839 can get what they want more cheaply from them. And that's why there's a 287 00:19:15.960 --> 00:19:19.319 net what these guys are doing. There's both a procedural answer and a substance 288 00:19:19.400 --> 00:19:23.160 answer to your question. To Mike's point, the procedural answer is that you 289 00:19:23.200 --> 00:19:30.559 can't even force the debate that you're suggesting unless some of these eighteen Republicans flip 290 00:19:30.680 --> 00:19:33.319 and join with the majority of the conference. So long as they're willing to 291 00:19:33.440 --> 00:19:37.279 end debate with the Democrats, which is what tonight's vote is, you don't 292 00:19:37.279 --> 00:19:41.119 even get an opportunity to present this to the conference, to force the end 293 00:19:41.119 --> 00:19:45.440 of votes and so forth. So really, this is why the vote tonight 294 00:19:45.519 --> 00:19:48.759 is so important. Is you're just trying PRISTI give some space to breathe for 295 00:19:48.799 --> 00:19:52.640 the argument that we're making now substantively. Do I think they accept the argument? 296 00:19:52.680 --> 00:19:56.240 I actually don't think that they do. The vacant The reason is unfortunately 297 00:19:56.319 --> 00:20:02.759 quite simple. There is a sub set of the Republican Conference that it's terrified 298 00:20:02.839 --> 00:20:07.119 that Donald Trump actually means what he says, and that when he is the 299 00:20:07.160 --> 00:20:11.119 elected president in January twenty twenty five and takes office, he will enforce some 300 00:20:11.200 --> 00:20:15.519 measure of diplomacy and bring the war to a rapid close. I actually think 301 00:20:15.559 --> 00:20:19.920 the intentional thing here is to handcuff him as much as possible. And I 302 00:20:19.960 --> 00:20:22.960 think I made this observation before you joined VIC, but I'll repeat it because 303 00:20:22.960 --> 00:20:30.880 it's important. The Washington Post is openly reporting administration officials leaking that they want 304 00:20:30.920 --> 00:20:34.000 to handcuff the next president. That Biden people are terrified that Donald Trump will 305 00:20:34.039 --> 00:20:40.400 win and that he will not pursue Biden's foreign policy or the Neokan foreign policy 306 00:20:40.440 --> 00:20:45.039 on Ukraine. They are trying to constrain him substantively. I don't think they 307 00:20:45.039 --> 00:20:48.599 would take the deal because they want to do the thing that we're terrified they're 308 00:20:48.640 --> 00:20:52.079 doing right, And so that's why I think it's at least worth smoking that 309 00:20:52.359 --> 00:20:56.160 out so everybody can see it in plain sight. You'll have to sort of 310 00:20:56.200 --> 00:21:02.079 publicly expose the eighteen Republicans rather than doing it procedurally with how the mechanics work 311 00:21:02.119 --> 00:21:04.680 in the Senate. But that's the point I was making JDS with respect to 312 00:21:04.759 --> 00:21:08.680 both the border, where part of what they're doing to borrow Elon's language is 313 00:21:08.920 --> 00:21:12.920 they're importing votes and stopping and want to stop the export of votes. That 314 00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:17.880 explains what's happening in the southern border debate. And here with respect to Ukraine, 315 00:21:17.920 --> 00:21:21.000 it is about actually constrain the degrees of freedom that Donald Trump will have 316 00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:23.839 as the next president in negotiating an end to this war. And so when 317 00:21:23.880 --> 00:21:29.759 you see that, it's actually each of these seemingly separate and otherwise inexplicable policies 318 00:21:29.799 --> 00:21:32.559 like how could this be the policy in our southern border? How could this 319 00:21:32.640 --> 00:21:36.039 actually be the position that we're taking to Ukraine to fork over more money without 320 00:21:36.039 --> 00:21:38.000 an iota of accountability for the one hundred billion dollars that we've already sent. 321 00:21:38.400 --> 00:21:42.880 It's actually all explained through I think a simple version of politics, not Republican 322 00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:48.599 versus Democrat politics, non Trump versus Trump politics in Washington, d C. 323 00:21:48.160 --> 00:21:52.319 To say that, how do we a minimize the chance that he's elected president? 324 00:21:52.480 --> 00:21:56.519 That's what the border policies are about, and how do we actually ensure 325 00:21:56.559 --> 00:22:00.480 that the degrees of freedom, if elected, are as constrained as they possibly 326 00:22:00.519 --> 00:22:03.480 can be before he assumes office. And I think that when you just try 327 00:22:03.519 --> 00:22:06.640 that filter on right as like a lens, let's just say, it's like 328 00:22:06.680 --> 00:22:10.200 a different lens with like a different you know, filter. To me, 329 00:22:10.279 --> 00:22:15.400 at least, that seems like a more parsimonious explanation of what's happening, and 330 00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:18.359 if that is correct, right, it sounds rather you know, conspiratorial and 331 00:22:18.359 --> 00:22:21.599 far fetched to somebody wh's hearing it for the first time, but it actually 332 00:22:21.640 --> 00:22:25.240 just makes sense if you look at why exactly they're operating the way they are. 333 00:22:25.720 --> 00:22:29.920 It's advantage, it's advancing a political incentive. Then I think the question 334 00:22:30.039 --> 00:22:33.519 is how do you most effectively at least smoke that out so everybody can see 335 00:22:33.559 --> 00:22:36.960 it, actually name that problem, and then I think it becomes very difficult 336 00:22:37.039 --> 00:22:40.799 for those eighteen Republicans to continue to hold on to their position, which was 337 00:22:41.039 --> 00:22:45.319 far less grounded in anything else other than being terrified of really changing the world 338 00:22:45.480 --> 00:22:48.240 order. After you know, Trump is able to negotiate an end of this 339 00:22:48.319 --> 00:22:53.359 war Bible, let me quit clarify this, Okay, Mike laid it out, 340 00:22:53.400 --> 00:22:59.279 but just very simply, when we entered this thing, McConnell, whose 341 00:22:59.319 --> 00:23:03.079 top priority was is funding for Ukraine, but public opinion and the very strong 342 00:23:03.519 --> 00:23:07.640 political rhetoric that we ought to secure our own border before we spend sixty billion 343 00:23:07.680 --> 00:23:14.240 dollars to secure Ukraine's was effective, and so McConnell finally switched and said, 344 00:23:14.279 --> 00:23:17.680 okay, we got to let Democrats know we're serious. We're going to defeat 345 00:23:17.720 --> 00:23:21.359 cloture on this bill, and we're we're going to demand the borer of security 346 00:23:21.400 --> 00:23:25.759 is going to be attached to funding for Ukraine. Then secret negotiations occurred on 347 00:23:25.880 --> 00:23:30.480 an issue that the public supports Republicans on, and we end up with this 348 00:23:30.680 --> 00:23:33.279 monstrosity of a bill and the immigration bills, not a border security bill. 349 00:23:33.720 --> 00:23:41.480 But during that timeframe, we repeatedly talked about making Ukraine funding contingent on border 350 00:23:41.559 --> 00:23:45.759 metrics, you know, just like performance measurements in business. Right as the 351 00:23:45.799 --> 00:23:49.119 border was secured, you'd get five billion dollars a month. I mean, 352 00:23:49.160 --> 00:23:52.000 we had it all laid out, had a proposal, It had a great 353 00:23:52.039 --> 00:23:56.319 deal support in our conference. But what Mike pointed out is unbeknownst to us 354 00:23:56.359 --> 00:24:02.799 at the time, McConnell told Langford that's not even on the table. He 355 00:24:03.200 --> 00:24:07.039 on his own, using his own authority, without telling the confidence, even 356 00:24:07.039 --> 00:24:11.759 though he knowed that knew the conference supported tying border security or Ukraine funding to 357 00:24:12.039 --> 00:24:15.799 actually securing the border. McConnell just took that off the table, and that 358 00:24:15.880 --> 00:24:22.279 moment of leverage we had where we could use Biden's desire for Ukraine funding to 359 00:24:22.599 --> 00:24:27.559 actually force him to use his executive authority to secure the border has been lost, 360 00:24:27.640 --> 00:24:30.480 and that is why so many of us are speaking out against McConnell. 361 00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:36.880 He was such a breach of his leadership position and it's such a just a 362 00:24:37.079 --> 00:24:41.079 horrible thing to do to Americans who want a secure border. But that's where 363 00:24:41.119 --> 00:24:45.359 we're at. So again, I think it has been smoked out. Now 364 00:24:45.440 --> 00:24:48.480 the action moves to the House and I've been talking to the Speaker and to 365 00:24:48.759 --> 00:24:52.759 Chairman Jordan. We need the House to step up the plate and say that 366 00:24:52.920 --> 00:24:56.759 no, you're not going to get any funding for Ukraine until we secure our 367 00:24:56.799 --> 00:25:00.200 border. They've got to stand strong, and as the messaging now has, 368 00:25:00.599 --> 00:25:04.559 most of public pressure asks be directed toward the House. So Ron, I 369 00:25:04.640 --> 00:25:07.000 want to jump in and go back to some of you and Elon were discussing 370 00:25:07.000 --> 00:25:10.839 earlier, just because I think it gets to the strategy of where do we 371 00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:15.160 go from here in Ukraine. And you know, it's always challenging to psychoanalyze 372 00:25:15.160 --> 00:25:18.279 people, but I think much of what is going on with Ukraine policy is 373 00:25:18.480 --> 00:25:26.279 you're trying to insulate neocons and liberal internationalists and the Biden administration from actually dealing 374 00:25:26.319 --> 00:25:29.559 with the consequences of their decisions. And so if you just go back to 375 00:25:29.640 --> 00:25:33.839 sort of eight nine, ten months ago, the consensus in the Biden administration 376 00:25:33.960 --> 00:25:37.960 I spoke about this privately with Secretary Blincoln, was we are going to put 377 00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:41.160 the Russians all the way back to the nineteen ninety one borders. The counter 378 00:25:41.160 --> 00:25:45.960 offensive is going to be wildly successful, and that's what we're trying to do. 379 00:25:45.400 --> 00:25:48.279 Of course, that didn't pan out. So now what is their argument 380 00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:52.119 for the strategy. The argument for the strategy is that if we throw enough 381 00:25:52.240 --> 00:25:57.000 money and resources and weapons at Ukraine, they will somehow reach a point where 382 00:25:57.039 --> 00:26:02.519 the Russians are tired of fighting and we'll come to the negotiating table. And 383 00:26:02.599 --> 00:26:04.839 of course we've learned pretty conclusively that they were. The Russians were at the 384 00:26:04.839 --> 00:26:10.759 negotiating table in April of twenty twenty two when Blincoln and Boris Johnson refused to 385 00:26:10.799 --> 00:26:18.720 negotiate with them. So we're witnessing the complete collapse of America's strategic capacity in 386 00:26:18.759 --> 00:26:22.319 the defensive word. I mean, can you imagine in World War Two if 387 00:26:22.359 --> 00:26:26.000 you had a president the United States saying we just want to throw weapons at 388 00:26:26.039 --> 00:26:30.279 an ally until hopefully, maybe someday they can get their enemies to negotiate with 389 00:26:30.359 --> 00:26:33.880 them. It's shocking that's where we are, and it's why, frankly, 390 00:26:33.920 --> 00:26:37.920 I agree with Favek that it's not just diminishing returns. We're at the point 391 00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:44.160 of negative returns with money spent in Ukraine. I am sort of okay with 392 00:26:44.279 --> 00:26:48.559 saying no to both Ukraine, yes to the border. I recognize that we 393 00:26:48.599 --> 00:26:52.279 have to have some negotiation here, but we really have to be honest about 394 00:26:52.319 --> 00:26:57.039 how insane this policy is and completely divorced from strategic capacity. If your explicit 395 00:26:57.119 --> 00:27:03.279 strategy is weight vladre Putin out until he comes to the negotiating table. When 396 00:27:03.559 --> 00:27:08.440 you are outmatched in manpower and weaponry, you're clinically insane. So JD, 397 00:27:08.799 --> 00:27:11.920 let me add one more piece of information. Because I was Chairman of the 398 00:27:11.960 --> 00:27:17.640 European subcass End Formulations or ranking member for periody ten years, so I've been 399 00:27:17.680 --> 00:27:19.359 over to Ukraine a lot. I was the only member of Congress that went 400 00:27:19.400 --> 00:27:25.240 to Zelensky's inauguration. I returned a few months later with Senator Murphy and talked 401 00:27:25.279 --> 00:27:30.279 to Zelensky at that point in time, Zolensky wanted to do a peace agreement 402 00:27:30.359 --> 00:27:34.039 with Putin. This was when Putin already illegally an ex crimea and was in 403 00:27:34.079 --> 00:27:37.680 firm control of eastern Ukraine. He knew at the time there was no way 404 00:27:37.720 --> 00:27:41.960 he was going to dislodge Putin. He knew it wouldn't be popular, but 405 00:27:41.119 --> 00:27:45.000 he wanted to do a peace agreement. His position's even worse right now. 406 00:27:45.400 --> 00:27:49.400 So I just point that out, that Zolensky wanted peace. I don't think 407 00:27:49.759 --> 00:27:55.720 yeah, I think it's just tragic that the US is using Ukraine as the 408 00:27:55.799 --> 00:28:00.440 pawns in their proxy war with Russia and Ukraine's being destroyed as the resulted. 409 00:28:00.480 --> 00:28:03.759 That can I just as me to that. I'm old enough to remember when 410 00:28:04.000 --> 00:28:08.759 the Senate and Congress passed the first one hundred and thirteen billion dollars for Ukraine, 411 00:28:08.880 --> 00:28:14.519 and I remember very clearly that what was claimed about that funding is that 412 00:28:14.599 --> 00:28:18.519 it would be used by the Ukrainians to evict the Russians from their territory, 413 00:28:18.920 --> 00:28:23.359 that there would be a successful spring or summer counter offensive and the Russians be 414 00:28:23.400 --> 00:28:27.240 pushed out of Ukraine. That was the objective, and that money was spent 415 00:28:27.519 --> 00:28:33.880 and the Ukrainians were defeated in the counter offensive. It completely failed. Now 416 00:28:33.000 --> 00:28:37.200 they're out of soldiers, were out of artillery ammunition, and the lines are 417 00:28:37.559 --> 00:28:44.440 buckling, and like Jad said, were there's no clear objective for this new 418 00:28:44.480 --> 00:28:48.519 sixty one billion dollars. No one is now claiming that this money will succeed 419 00:28:49.079 --> 00:28:55.880 in getting the Russians out of Ukraine. No one's even proposing that victory in 420 00:28:55.920 --> 00:28:59.480 this war isn't objective anymore. All they're saying is what we see to appropriate 421 00:28:59.480 --> 00:29:03.599 this money because we want to avoid defeat, or we want to get to 422 00:29:03.200 --> 00:29:07.160 a negotiating position with the Russians, which like you guys are saying, we 423 00:29:07.279 --> 00:29:11.000 had at the beginning of the war, we had an Istanbul, a draft 424 00:29:11.039 --> 00:29:15.559 agreement that was signed by the Ukrainians. David R. A. Kamiya, 425 00:29:15.599 --> 00:29:18.519 who is a leader of the Ukrainian delegation, said they had a deal. 426 00:29:18.920 --> 00:29:22.759 Alexei Aristovich, who worked for the Zelenski at that time, said they were 427 00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:27.640 popping champagne bottles because they had a deal. And then Boris Johnson flew into 428 00:29:27.680 --> 00:29:30.880 Kiev and all of a sudden the deal fell apart. So it seems like 429 00:29:32.000 --> 00:29:34.880 all we're trying to do now is appropriate money to get back to the place 430 00:29:36.279 --> 00:29:40.240 that we already had for free at the beginning of this war, which is 431 00:29:40.680 --> 00:29:44.519 a negotiation with the Russians. I guess my question for all of you centators 432 00:29:44.720 --> 00:29:49.599 is could we get a real investigation, like some congressional oversight, a congressional 433 00:29:49.640 --> 00:29:56.400 investigation of what exactly happened in that sort of March April period at the beginning 434 00:29:56.400 --> 00:30:02.039 of the war where again they had a draft agree in Istanbul and then Boris 435 00:30:02.079 --> 00:30:04.720 Johnson came in and the Ukrainians walked away. I mean, I would love 436 00:30:06.160 --> 00:30:11.680 for the congress field to ask real questions at the Administration in its oversight capacity, 437 00:30:11.200 --> 00:30:15.759 asking what was your involvement and sabotaging that deal? Yeah, David, 438 00:30:15.799 --> 00:30:19.079 so obviously that's suppoor congressional oversight. But we have to be honest here about 439 00:30:19.119 --> 00:30:23.920 how many of our colleagues seem dead set against real oversight. And you know, 440 00:30:25.000 --> 00:30:27.319 Ron john I'm very curious to your sort of take on this because I 441 00:30:27.359 --> 00:30:33.119 have a number of conversations with colleagues with Department of Defense officials, and it's 442 00:30:33.240 --> 00:30:37.279 really weird to me how they simultaneously say we know where all the money is 443 00:30:37.279 --> 00:30:41.720 going. And also we refuse to do any independent oversight. You know, 444 00:30:41.759 --> 00:30:44.359 if they know all the money is going, then they might as well just 445 00:30:44.480 --> 00:30:48.519 acceed to the independent oversight, because it would make people like me much more, 446 00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:51.839 you know, at least sympathetic to the fact that we knew where our 447 00:30:51.880 --> 00:30:53.799 resources were going, even if I don't agree that they should be going there 448 00:30:53.839 --> 00:30:56.759 in the first place. But I'm just curious, Ron, why are they 449 00:30:56.839 --> 00:31:00.839 so resistant to this. We've tried to do it, We've tried to force 450 00:31:00.839 --> 00:31:03.400 amendment votes. They are dead set against oversight. I don't get it. 451 00:31:03.680 --> 00:31:07.720 Well, they don't want to admit they're wrong. I think an awful big 452 00:31:07.759 --> 00:31:11.559 push of this administration is just get Ukraine past the election. You know, 453 00:31:11.680 --> 00:31:15.759 House Republicans would have to be doing the oversight. You know, I'll use 454 00:31:15.799 --> 00:31:19.839 COVID as an example. Nobody wants to admit what a miserable failure I response 455 00:31:21.039 --> 00:31:23.960 was COVID. No nobody wants to admit that the vaccines that they pushed on 456 00:31:25.000 --> 00:31:30.119 their constituents, that they did videos recommending mighty killed some of their constituents. 457 00:31:30.160 --> 00:31:33.759 Sin. The same dynamic is curring here with Ukraine. Nobody wants to admit 458 00:31:33.839 --> 00:31:37.960 that we completely wasted over one hundred and ten billion dollars. So the way 459 00:31:37.000 --> 00:31:41.519 you don't have to admit failure is you keep pushing more money, pretending that 460 00:31:41.519 --> 00:31:45.880 it's a success. So I got I think it's just that basic human Tennessee. 461 00:31:45.960 --> 00:31:48.279 Nobody wants to admit they're or wrong. And again, one of the 462 00:31:48.319 --> 00:31:52.519 ways you do it is just do keep doing the same thing over and over 463 00:31:52.559 --> 00:31:56.000 again and hope nobody really causy on it. Yeah, I think that's exactly 464 00:31:56.119 --> 00:32:00.279 right. I mean, again, no one is even proposing that victory is 465 00:32:00.319 --> 00:32:05.480 the objective here. No one's claiming that we're going to win the war because 466 00:32:05.480 --> 00:32:08.279 of the sixty billion, or that Ukraine will push the Russians out of their 467 00:32:08.359 --> 00:32:15.920 territory. No one is even bothering to articulate an objective here other than not 468 00:32:15.079 --> 00:32:19.640 losing. You know. But again, even if we appropriate this money, 469 00:32:20.200 --> 00:32:24.960 the Ukrainians are losing an ammunition war. We can't produce enough to solve that 470 00:32:25.000 --> 00:32:29.559 bomb for them in any reasonable time frame. And moreover, they're out of 471 00:32:29.559 --> 00:32:32.160 soldiers. You know, there's videos on Twitter that I'll post in this room 472 00:32:32.279 --> 00:32:37.359 of Ukrainian men being literally rounded up off the street. I read a case 473 00:32:37.599 --> 00:32:43.319 of guy in his fifties went out to get a haircut and he was impressed 474 00:32:43.359 --> 00:32:45.119 into service, and the next week he ended up in the front lines in 475 00:32:45.200 --> 00:32:49.359 Ukraine. This is what's happening right now, is people are being rounded up 476 00:32:49.359 --> 00:32:52.240 off the streets to fight in a losing war, to keep it going for 477 00:32:52.400 --> 00:32:57.319 just a few more days or weeks or months, so that the people went 478 00:32:57.440 --> 00:33:00.759 to this point don't have to take any accountability for the failure of this policy. 479 00:33:00.839 --> 00:33:04.319 There's one point I would add to if that makes it even worse, 480 00:33:04.400 --> 00:33:08.000 David, because this bill allows an additional seven point eight billion dollars in presidential 481 00:33:08.079 --> 00:33:12.519 draw down as shorty to set our own weapon stockpiles over there, and it 482 00:33:12.559 --> 00:33:17.240 simultaneously lets the Department of Defense enter into contracts for another thirteen point seven billion 483 00:33:17.279 --> 00:33:21.839 dollars. That's over twenty billion dollars in weapons we're going to send over there. 484 00:33:22.480 --> 00:33:25.680 That thirteen point seven billion. A new contracting authority does not require the 485 00:33:25.720 --> 00:33:30.519 Biden administration to prioritize our own weapons needs. Remember, we've depleted a lot 486 00:33:30.519 --> 00:33:36.400 of our own stockpiles to use for our own national defense in anything that might 487 00:33:36.480 --> 00:33:39.400 happen that might require us to use them. So not only are these weapons 488 00:33:39.440 --> 00:33:44.480 as we stand today, those weapons are probably four or five years away from 489 00:33:44.519 --> 00:33:47.400 being produced for US even if we don't pass this bill. If we pass 490 00:33:47.480 --> 00:33:52.359 this bill, it could easily stretch years beyond that for some of these weapons 491 00:33:52.359 --> 00:33:57.839 systems with a really long production time. That's deeply concerning because that directly impairs 492 00:33:58.160 --> 00:34:01.599 our own national security. Yeah. Absolutely, And CSIS, which is a 493 00:34:01.799 --> 00:34:07.640 military think tank, to an excellent report talking about the long lead times required 494 00:34:07.680 --> 00:34:13.119 to replenish our arsenals of all these weapons. And we have substantially depleted ourselves 495 00:34:13.119 --> 00:34:15.559 by giving so much to Ukraine. Like you said, even if the warst 496 00:34:15.559 --> 00:34:21.719 stopped today, it would take us years to replenish all these thought piles. 497 00:34:21.880 --> 00:34:25.079 So you know, I continue to give whatever little we make ourselves. Now 498 00:34:25.440 --> 00:34:30.920 we're jeaparizing our own security and the story of other allies who we may have 499 00:34:30.960 --> 00:34:34.360 long standing commitments to. David, I want to pick up on that point 500 00:34:34.360 --> 00:34:37.679 because I don't think people realize how extraordinarily the defense industrial base is in our 501 00:34:37.679 --> 00:34:40.039 country. But you know, Ron talked about this a little bit, But 502 00:34:40.320 --> 00:34:45.519 if you look at the most critical weapons supplies for any potential conflict, whether 503 00:34:45.519 --> 00:34:49.039 it's in Eastern Europe or Asia. There's a lot of overlap. It's not 504 00:34:49.079 --> 00:34:52.639 complete, but you need things like javelins, you need patriots, you need 505 00:34:52.719 --> 00:34:55.360 tomahawks, you need those are the missile systems you need one hundred and fifty 506 00:34:55.400 --> 00:35:01.480 five million meters artillery shells. All of these systems are incredib stressed by the 507 00:35:01.559 --> 00:35:07.119 Ukraine conflict, and all of them we're depleting. Even with the sixty one 508 00:35:07.119 --> 00:35:12.400 million dollars worth of investments contemplated in this bill, we're all contemplating spending down 509 00:35:12.400 --> 00:35:16.880 those resources much faster than we can replenish them under any scenario. It's especially 510 00:35:16.920 --> 00:35:20.800 troubling if you start to look into the supply chain stuff. I mean, 511 00:35:20.840 --> 00:35:23.079 I know you guys know a lot about this, but solid rocket motors, 512 00:35:23.400 --> 00:35:27.760 which are one of the critical components of any of the missile systems that we 513 00:35:27.880 --> 00:35:31.320 use, they're under an incredible amount of stress. We cannot possibly make enough 514 00:35:31.360 --> 00:35:37.199 of them to support the missile systems necessary in Europe and to provide for our 515 00:35:37.199 --> 00:35:40.159 own contingencies if God forbid, you know, some conflict erupted in East Asia 516 00:35:40.320 --> 00:35:47.039 or somewhere else. So we're actually creating the circumstances where a work could break 517 00:35:47.079 --> 00:35:51.480 out in some part of the world and we couldn't fight it because we don't 518 00:35:51.519 --> 00:35:55.400 make enough bullets and we don't have enough missiles. And this is particularly pertinent 519 00:35:55.440 --> 00:36:00.679 to the argument that Ukraine advocates make that if we somehow give up in Ukraine, 520 00:36:01.119 --> 00:36:05.079 then she is going to march right into Taiwan. We're going to sort 521 00:36:05.079 --> 00:36:09.039 of promote an aggressive China by not continuing to fund Ukraine indefinitely. One of 522 00:36:09.079 --> 00:36:14.480 the classic formulations of foreign policy, to Terrence, is that it's a combination 523 00:36:14.719 --> 00:36:19.639 of resolve and capacity. These guys are all talking about resolve, about bumping 524 00:36:19.679 --> 00:36:23.719 out our chests and demanding that the Chinese do this or that, and showing 525 00:36:23.719 --> 00:36:28.079 that we are going to be with Ukraine for the next five years if it 526 00:36:28.119 --> 00:36:30.320 takes that long, the next ten years, if it takes that long, 527 00:36:30.639 --> 00:36:34.440 the Chinese don't give it. Damn how much we thump our chest. They 528 00:36:34.480 --> 00:36:38.840 care about whether we have capacity, whether we have munitions and missiles and bullets 529 00:36:39.000 --> 00:36:44.199 that we would need. And that's where this war is such a huge train 530 00:36:44.360 --> 00:36:49.880 on resources. Where As we speak, sending the critical weapons of war to 531 00:36:49.960 --> 00:36:54.440 another country knowing that we can't replenish them ourselves fast enough. It's the height 532 00:36:54.480 --> 00:37:00.039 of insanity. He Jadi. Let's go back to Elon's idiot index. I 533 00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:04.960 wrote some figures from Hika for twenty twenty two defense spending. So the US 534 00:37:05.000 --> 00:37:09.039 spent eight hundred and seventy seven billion dollars, China two hundred and ninety two 535 00:37:09.039 --> 00:37:14.679 billion dollars. The next thirteen countries combined two hundred and seventy three billion dollars 536 00:37:14.760 --> 00:37:17.400 less than the US did in total. So how well are we spending that 537 00:37:17.920 --> 00:37:22.719 to produce a military industrial complex? You know? How effective are we? 538 00:37:22.760 --> 00:37:27.079 What are we spending the money on? You know? My final point here 539 00:37:27.119 --> 00:37:30.639 too is retrospectively going back and taking a look at all these foreign entanglements. 540 00:37:30.800 --> 00:37:37.440 Fifty eight thousand Americans dead in Vietnam because the DOMINOI effect, right, if 541 00:37:37.480 --> 00:37:39.960 you don't stop them there, they're going to take over the world. Fifty 542 00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:44.639 eight thousand Americans. I was just recently Hanoi. What wonderful people. We 543 00:37:44.800 --> 00:37:47.760 never should have been bombed Vietnam. What came of Afghanistan? Of Iraq? 544 00:37:47.800 --> 00:37:52.960 What's again? The proxy war is destroying Ukraine. This isn't for the bent 545 00:37:53.079 --> 00:37:58.159 for the Ukrainian people. They are being destroyed in this process. So we 546 00:37:58.239 --> 00:38:00.360 as Americans, you know, listen, we are the good guys, I 547 00:38:00.400 --> 00:38:04.840 have no doubt about that. But we are far from perfect. And what 548 00:38:04.880 --> 00:38:09.159 we don't do we don't do oversight, but we don't retrospectively take a look 549 00:38:09.199 --> 00:38:15.519 at what our actions actually resulted in because we really don't want to own up 550 00:38:15.559 --> 00:38:17.599 to the reality of that situation. Well, and to the point about destroying 551 00:38:17.679 --> 00:38:22.920 Ukraine, Ron, I hate when people don't talk about unintended consequences in war. 552 00:38:22.440 --> 00:38:28.320 One of the unintended consequences of this conflict is six hundred and fifty thousand 553 00:38:28.440 --> 00:38:31.760 Ukrainians left at the beginning of the war. Those are largely the wealthiest people, 554 00:38:31.800 --> 00:38:36.639 the people who would have gotten conscripted to have the resources and the connections 555 00:38:36.880 --> 00:38:40.559 to avoid it. The death toll, if you combined civilian and military deaths, 556 00:38:40.880 --> 00:38:45.519 is approximately four hundred thousand according to smestimates that I've seen. What does 557 00:38:45.519 --> 00:38:52.320 it do demographically to a country to be depleted of four hundred thousand, mostly 558 00:38:52.400 --> 00:38:55.920 young men, to the point where you're now tapping into middle aged men to 559 00:38:57.000 --> 00:39:00.559 support your man power needs. Yeah, I sort to think about I'm a 560 00:39:00.559 --> 00:39:04.840 conservative. Most of the people hosting are involved in this call or conservative like, 561 00:39:04.920 --> 00:39:07.880 what does it do to your country? What would it do to America? 562 00:39:07.119 --> 00:39:13.719 If we took four million prime age mid and suck them out of America 563 00:39:13.760 --> 00:39:16.440 and threw them into space, it would radically transform our politics, it would 564 00:39:16.519 --> 00:39:22.159 radically transform our economy. It would completely deathamate, I mean a generation of 565 00:39:22.280 --> 00:39:27.079 young people. So just in moral terms, it's a disaster, and no 566 00:39:27.119 --> 00:39:30.280 one's talking about it. Everybody's acting like the Ukrainians are gung ho to fight. 567 00:39:30.760 --> 00:39:35.159 The data doesn't suggest that no. I mean, all the Ukrainians who 568 00:39:35.159 --> 00:39:37.519 are down hoo to fight volunteered in the first year of the war. Now 569 00:39:37.519 --> 00:39:40.880 they're rounding people up off the streets and it's very sad. I mean, 570 00:39:40.880 --> 00:39:45.320 it's very clear that the people who are being conscripted and impressed into service right 571 00:39:45.360 --> 00:39:51.280 now are they're not looking to fight. And it's the people who are the 572 00:39:51.360 --> 00:39:55.280 poorest who have the least ability to bribe their way out of being conscripted or 573 00:39:55.320 --> 00:39:59.760 bribe their way out of the country. And the people with money have already 574 00:40:00.079 --> 00:40:05.119 left the country. I've seen estimates that something like ten million Ukrainia already fled 575 00:40:05.159 --> 00:40:09.000 the country. They may be down to somewhere under a population of thirty million 576 00:40:09.039 --> 00:40:13.920 are ready, and a huge percentage of them are pensioners, maybe as many 577 00:40:14.440 --> 00:40:17.440 as half of them are pensioners. So we have with this war, I 578 00:40:17.440 --> 00:40:22.199 think, pushed the country to the point of demographic collapse. And one of 579 00:40:22.239 --> 00:40:30.480 the reasons for friction between Zelenski and Zelutiony is that Zelensky wanted Zeluzi to go 580 00:40:30.559 --> 00:40:34.159 in front of the Rada, their parliament, and push for this new mobilization 581 00:40:34.320 --> 00:40:37.440 bill. But the mobilization bill is very unpopular. Obviously, the people who 582 00:40:37.480 --> 00:40:42.679 are there do not want to be conscripted, and so this was one of 583 00:40:42.679 --> 00:40:45.199 the huge points of friction is that Selutioni did not want to do it. 584 00:40:45.480 --> 00:40:49.320 Zelensky replaced him, and now it looks like they're going to push for this 585 00:40:49.400 --> 00:40:54.440 new round of conscription and mobilization and it has no real chance of changing the 586 00:40:54.480 --> 00:40:59.119 outcome of the war here. I mean, it's very clear that the Russians 587 00:40:59.199 --> 00:41:02.039 are domin They have a lot more soldiers, they have a lot more weapons, 588 00:41:02.039 --> 00:41:05.760 they have a lot more artillery, and they're going to win the war. 589 00:41:05.800 --> 00:41:09.159 It's just a matter of time now. But Zelenski and Biden both have 590 00:41:09.440 --> 00:41:14.480 the same incentive, which is to keep this thing going as long as possible 591 00:41:14.519 --> 00:41:17.199 so they don't have to acknowledge the failure of their policy, and the hardship 592 00:41:17.239 --> 00:41:22.400 here is going to fall on you every day, ordinary Ukrainians. You are 593 00:41:22.480 --> 00:41:27.079 now going to get grounded up and press them to service and sent to the 594 00:41:27.119 --> 00:41:30.239 front lines where they don't, you know, sadly last very long. So 595 00:41:30.320 --> 00:41:37.440 this is where this policy of appropriating more money not with any objective of victory. 596 00:41:37.519 --> 00:41:40.840 No one is even seriously arguing that this money is going to help Ukraine 597 00:41:40.880 --> 00:41:45.000 win. The argument is just, well, we don't want Ukraine to lose, 598 00:41:45.079 --> 00:41:47.800 so it's just this deferral of the inevitable. And the one thing they're 599 00:41:47.800 --> 00:41:52.880 not willing to do is negotiate. They're just not willing to do what they 600 00:41:52.880 --> 00:41:55.599 always should have done, to do what they frankly sabotaged in the first few 601 00:41:55.599 --> 00:42:00.800 months of this war, which is negotiate as settlement. That's what needs to 602 00:42:00.840 --> 00:42:04.280 happen here. Well, what needs to happen is we need all the listeners 603 00:42:04.360 --> 00:42:08.960 on this spaces exchange here to contact their house members and make sure this thing 604 00:42:09.000 --> 00:42:14.880 stops. I really do want to thank Elon for opening up X and making 605 00:42:14.960 --> 00:42:17.559 it a platform for free speech again. I think there's been an excellent discussion. 606 00:42:17.679 --> 00:42:22.679 David, thank you for moderating it. I certainly want to thank Jay 607 00:42:22.679 --> 00:42:25.119 and Mike. They've been tireless being down the floor of the Center trying to 608 00:42:25.119 --> 00:42:28.920 stop this. But in the end, it's we the people. It's going 609 00:42:28.960 --> 00:42:31.199 to take public pressure. I think I'm afraid it's too late here in the 610 00:42:31.239 --> 00:42:37.639 Senate to get through to these seventeen eighteen Republicans that are joined the Democrats to 611 00:42:37.920 --> 00:42:42.079 prolong this war. But I think we can get to the House, get 612 00:42:42.119 --> 00:42:45.800 them to stop this and insist on securing our board again. I just want 613 00:42:45.800 --> 00:42:47.800 to thank Elon. I want to thank all of you guys for this opportunity, 614 00:42:47.920 --> 00:42:51.800 and it's been an excellent discussion. Yes, he us welcome, and 615 00:42:52.159 --> 00:42:55.079 I think the arguments were very well articulated by a number of people who spoke. 616 00:42:55.400 --> 00:42:59.639 So hopefully the public, recon public is able to listen to this and 617 00:43:00.039 --> 00:43:05.480 indeed contact their elected representatives. I think the really important thing to bear in 618 00:43:05.519 --> 00:43:09.039 mind here is that the spending does not help Ukraine. Prolonging the war does 619 00:43:09.079 --> 00:43:15.239 not help Ukraine. This is very important to appreciate. I think it's fantastic, 620 00:43:15.320 --> 00:43:17.360 Like America wants to be the good guy. You know, that's actually 621 00:43:17.360 --> 00:43:22.119 pretty rare. We actually care about whether we're the good guy or not. 622 00:43:22.440 --> 00:43:23.400 Most countries don't