WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.680 --> 00:00:09.119 Welcome to Idemics Performance and Wellness, where world leading coaches and scientists explain how 2 00:00:09.160 --> 00:00:16.719 their research can help you achieve your personal and professional goals. Foster hi It's 3 00:00:16.760 --> 00:00:21.359 Sanjayanti, co founder and CEO of Idemics Coaching. Coaching has played an important 4 00:00:21.440 --> 00:00:24.440 role in my life. It's helped me through my journey to become a powerful 5 00:00:24.519 --> 00:00:29.519 leader, mother and wife. IDMX coaches help you increase your self awareness, 6 00:00:29.600 --> 00:00:33.359 improve your problem solving skills, and evolve your habits to achieve your goals, 7 00:00:33.679 --> 00:00:36.920 all things I'm grateful to have learned and done through my own coaching journey. 8 00:00:37.399 --> 00:00:41.640 Our easy one minute assessment matches you with an Idemics coach that best fits your 9 00:00:41.679 --> 00:00:46.359 needs and values. Each Idemics coach is vetted and experienced. It helps clients 10 00:00:46.399 --> 00:00:50.799 mad and achieve their wellness, professional and business goals. If you or someone 11 00:00:50.840 --> 00:00:56.200 you know could benefit from coaching, visit our website at www dotidemics dot com. 12 00:00:56.520 --> 00:00:59.759 We also know that not everyone can invest in coaching right now, and 13 00:00:59.840 --> 00:01:03.920 that's why we provide free coaching in our Coach Shorts episodes. If you think 14 00:01:03.960 --> 00:01:07.359 someone you know would benefit from it, please share our podcast with them. 15 00:01:07.760 --> 00:01:15.120 Thanks for listening and see you next time. Hi everyone, Welcome to Coaching 16 00:01:15.159 --> 00:01:22.879 Performance and Wellness by IDMS Coaching. I'm your host Samita Jayanti. Today we 17 00:01:23.000 --> 00:01:29.599 have Bernardo Ferdman joining us. Bernardo's a seasoned leadership and organizational development consultant with 18 00:01:29.640 --> 00:01:36.560 over thirty five years of experience. He's passionate about creating inclusive workplaces and edits 19 00:01:36.760 --> 00:01:42.599 inclusive leadership and diversity at work. His expertise in coaching, consulting, and 20 00:01:42.640 --> 00:01:47.359 facilitation makes him a sought after advisor in the field. Bernardo, Welcome to 21 00:01:47.400 --> 00:01:52.159 the show. Thank you. It's so good to be here. Bernardo. 22 00:01:52.760 --> 00:01:57.319 In my introduction I obviously focused on the obvious things, But what didn't I 23 00:01:57.400 --> 00:02:00.359 say that you'd like our listeners to know about you? Thank you, Thanks 24 00:02:00.400 --> 00:02:05.200 for that opportunity. I think, as you said, I'm really passionate about 25 00:02:05.200 --> 00:02:08.080 inclusion, really creating a world and a place is to work where more of 26 00:02:08.159 --> 00:02:13.560 us can really bring all of our energy, our identities, our power and 27 00:02:14.039 --> 00:02:16.000 do things that are meaningful for us and for the world, do things that 28 00:02:16.080 --> 00:02:23.599 matter together and also a more just world right as well as more inclusive. 29 00:02:23.159 --> 00:02:28.400 And so to do that, I work with leaders and organizations to bring inclusion 30 00:02:28.439 --> 00:02:31.400 to life. To make it real in our mindsets, our interactions and behaviors, 31 00:02:31.439 --> 00:02:36.120 our systems, and doing that means really connecting to who we are. 32 00:02:36.199 --> 00:02:38.680 So I think it's so important to talk about ourselves, you know, to 33 00:02:38.759 --> 00:02:44.599 really ground ourselves in our backgrounds, our histories, our identities. So just 34 00:02:44.639 --> 00:02:49.439 a little bit about that. In relation to me, I'm originally from Argentina. 35 00:02:49.520 --> 00:02:52.560 I was born in Argentina. As I like to joke, at the 36 00:02:52.560 --> 00:02:54.759 top of the world, right, it's to shift our mindset about the world 37 00:02:55.120 --> 00:03:00.199 and what's on top and what's in the bottom. Right. I immigrate to 38 00:03:00.199 --> 00:03:02.960 the United States with my family in nineteen sixty six when I was seven years 39 00:03:04.000 --> 00:03:06.800 old, so do the math. I'm almost sixty five, so that's another 40 00:03:06.840 --> 00:03:14.000 identity. And in New York we lived in Queens That's where I learned the 41 00:03:14.039 --> 00:03:15.800 English, the Queen's English, I like to joke, although that joke doesn't 42 00:03:15.800 --> 00:03:21.639 work anymore, you know, then the sink or swim approach at the time. 43 00:03:21.879 --> 00:03:24.159 And then when I was eleven, we moved to Puerto Rico, so 44 00:03:24.159 --> 00:03:27.520 I had to learn a new kind of Spanish, new kind of English. 45 00:03:27.960 --> 00:03:32.159 Also, I'm Jewish. My family was in Argentina in the eighteen nineties. 46 00:03:32.879 --> 00:03:37.319 So im fourth generation in Argentina, and so I was a minority there, 47 00:03:37.400 --> 00:03:39.120 and then in the United States, I was not only a minority as a 48 00:03:39.199 --> 00:03:44.000 Jewish person, but also among Jews. So I've always been really conscious of 49 00:03:44.360 --> 00:03:49.400 the complexity of identity, the varieties of any particular identity, what it's like 50 00:03:49.439 --> 00:03:54.400 to be an immigrant, just how life affects our opportunities and our paths. 51 00:03:54.919 --> 00:04:00.000 I was a beneficiary of the nineteen sixty five immigration law in the United States 52 00:04:00.039 --> 00:04:03.240 that allowed people to come basically with a job offer and get a visa as 53 00:04:03.280 --> 00:04:08.800 my father for all of us, and so people who are crossing the riot 54 00:04:09.199 --> 00:04:12.639 are not all that different in some ways and their search for opportunity, but 55 00:04:12.759 --> 00:04:16.879 they're living in a different system that makes it harder for them than it was 56 00:04:16.959 --> 00:04:20.680 for us at the time. Also, my middle class background made a difference 57 00:04:20.720 --> 00:04:24.439 to the fact that my father was a professional, you know that kind of 58 00:04:24.519 --> 00:04:29.920 thing. And so in Puerto Rico, I relearned Spanish, but with a 59 00:04:29.959 --> 00:04:33.079 slightly different variety, right, and so a lot of adaptation in my life. 60 00:04:33.120 --> 00:04:38.800 I'm a psychologist by training, have a PhD in psychology from Yale University, 61 00:04:38.839 --> 00:04:41.839 did that in the nineteen eighties. I was a professor for most of 62 00:04:41.879 --> 00:04:47.720 my career, for about thirty they're almost thirty two years, first at the 63 00:04:47.839 --> 00:04:51.079 University at Albany State University of New York, and then at the California School 64 00:04:51.079 --> 00:04:56.759 of Professional Psychology, where I left at the end of twenty seventeen as a 65 00:04:56.879 --> 00:05:02.680 distinguished Professor Emeritus and went full time into consulting, which I've been doing that 66 00:05:02.759 --> 00:05:05.560 in my whole career, but since the end of twenty seventeen, I've been 67 00:05:05.600 --> 00:05:11.480 doing full time and I work with all kinds of organizations to really, as 68 00:05:11.519 --> 00:05:15.399 I said, to bring inclusion to life from a systemic perspective, from a 69 00:05:15.480 --> 00:05:17.959 learning perspective, really at all levels of the organization, and really to foster 70 00:05:18.040 --> 00:05:21.000 inclusive leadership, which we can talk about, I'm sure, Hich we'll talk 71 00:05:21.040 --> 00:05:27.040 a lot about. Yeah, fantastic, so Bernardo. To start us off, 72 00:05:27.959 --> 00:05:32.839 I wanted to show our listeners a short video of yours where you talked 73 00:05:32.839 --> 00:05:39.120 about inclusion from the perspective of the individual, right, And I love what 74 00:05:39.199 --> 00:05:45.959 you told us about yourself because many times I think people just don't take the 75 00:05:46.000 --> 00:05:50.160 time to understand the experiences and the background of each individual because they are such 76 00:05:50.160 --> 00:05:55.920 a driver in who we are and how we behave and how we react to 77 00:05:56.000 --> 00:06:13.120 both people on situations. So let's take a quick look and I see the 78 00:06:13.360 --> 00:06:17.600 experience of inclusion at the individual level as the basic element of inclusion. I 79 00:06:17.680 --> 00:06:24.560 experience inclusion when I feel safe and engaged, when I sense that I belong 80 00:06:24.839 --> 00:06:28.839 and that I can make a difference, When I feel trusted, valued, 81 00:06:28.920 --> 00:06:33.920 respected, and supported. When I believe that I can be fully myself and 82 00:06:33.959 --> 00:06:38.560 that I can contribute to my group and to the organization, and that I'm 83 00:06:38.560 --> 00:06:46.279 empowered and growing into my best self without compromising or losing important aspects of who 84 00:06:46.279 --> 00:06:48.560 I am. And it's not enough for me to experience this. I need 85 00:06:48.600 --> 00:06:53.240 to see that other people like me and other people who are part of multiple 86 00:06:53.279 --> 00:06:58.959 identity groups are also experiencing inclusion. But I do. In the video, 87 00:06:59.480 --> 00:07:05.800 you talk talked about the basic elements of what allows an individual to feel included. 88 00:07:08.040 --> 00:07:13.839 You work with a lot of companies and individuals. Give us two examples 89 00:07:13.920 --> 00:07:20.600 of environments where individuals do feel included, and what are the facets or features 90 00:07:20.600 --> 00:07:28.279 of that culture that enable that. You know, I think it varies from 91 00:07:28.279 --> 00:07:31.160 person to person. I think you mentioned that how it's individualized, and I 92 00:07:31.160 --> 00:07:34.800 think that's so important. There isn't one size fits all in this right. 93 00:07:35.199 --> 00:07:40.399 Inclusion, as I try to explain, is constructed in every interaction. Right, 94 00:07:40.680 --> 00:07:44.199 we have to really figure out what's going to work for each person. 95 00:07:44.519 --> 00:07:46.720 You know, I'm left handed, and so what works for a right handed 96 00:07:46.759 --> 00:07:48.879 person is not going to work for a left handed person, just at a 97 00:07:48.920 --> 00:07:53.199 very simplified level, right, But we're much more complex than that. We 98 00:07:53.240 --> 00:07:56.319 have so many different identities. But as I mentioned in my introduction, what 99 00:07:56.399 --> 00:07:58.839 it means to be Jewish for me is different than someone else. What it 100 00:07:58.879 --> 00:08:03.160 means to be Latino is different for me than another Latino. Even though we 101 00:08:03.199 --> 00:08:07.040 share some things, we're also different. And so an environment that foster's inclusion 102 00:08:07.120 --> 00:08:11.279 has to make space for that, not to over categorize people, but also 103 00:08:11.319 --> 00:08:16.439 to honor those identities, to make space for the different ways in which we 104 00:08:16.439 --> 00:08:22.000 express our connections to our group memberships and identities and backgrounds. And so I 105 00:08:22.040 --> 00:08:26.800 think making space to inquir into that. Being feeling safe is so important, 106 00:08:26.879 --> 00:08:33.320 right, creating physical and psychological safety for the self, but also for members 107 00:08:33.360 --> 00:08:37.679 of one's group as well. It's not enough for me to feel personally safe, 108 00:08:37.679 --> 00:08:41.200 physically and psychologically. Other people who I feel are like me in some 109 00:08:41.279 --> 00:08:43.240 way also need to feel that. And I need to have some sense of 110 00:08:43.320 --> 00:08:46.559 involvement in the collective, right, it has to matter to me. I 111 00:08:46.559 --> 00:08:50.399 have to have some influence on decision making, even if things don't go my 112 00:08:50.440 --> 00:08:54.039 way. Does my voice matter? Am I respect it and valued? And 113 00:08:54.240 --> 00:08:56.480 can I be authentic and bring my whole self to work? And so the 114 00:08:56.519 --> 00:09:00.559 conditions that create that, that's what we need to so look at. And 115 00:09:00.559 --> 00:09:05.799 it starts with those conversations that people have with their supervisors, with their colleagues, 116 00:09:05.559 --> 00:09:09.039 and the space that the system creates for those conversations. Anyway we can 117 00:09:09.080 --> 00:09:13.440 get into that, but those are sort of the basic parts for me. 118 00:09:13.840 --> 00:09:18.039 No, I'm glad you brought that up, because you know, obviously we're 119 00:09:18.039 --> 00:09:24.960 a coaching company. We're huge believers in the fact that leadership fundamentally has really 120 00:09:24.080 --> 00:09:28.799 shifted over these last ten or fifteen years, right, And the big shift 121 00:09:28.720 --> 00:09:37.879 is that the obligation and responsibility requirement, you know, whatever word one wants 122 00:09:37.919 --> 00:09:43.240 to use that a leader has of you know, any team, at any 123 00:09:43.360 --> 00:09:50.840 level of the organization to take the time to understand each individual on their team, 124 00:09:50.720 --> 00:09:54.919 build a connection with them, understand who they are. And this really 125 00:09:54.960 --> 00:10:01.799 gets into you know, for a while the sort of professional cultural zeitgeist was 126 00:10:01.960 --> 00:10:05.440 work is very separate from the personal and so they shouldn't, you know, 127 00:10:05.559 --> 00:10:11.039 kind of interact in the workplace. But that's just not the case, right, 128 00:10:11.080 --> 00:10:13.799 because we bring our whole selves to work. We don't leave like half 129 00:10:13.840 --> 00:10:18.480 of ourselves at home every day. So tell us a little bit about because 130 00:10:18.480 --> 00:10:22.840 so many of our listeners, I think, you know, struggle with this 131 00:10:24.080 --> 00:10:28.919 that the role of a leader fundamentally has really shifted and that leader has to 132 00:10:28.960 --> 00:10:35.559 be humanistic and pathetic and take the time to relate to each individual one on 133 00:10:35.559 --> 00:10:39.240 one. Yeah, I think that's true. I don't think that's a new 134 00:10:39.240 --> 00:10:41.360 idea. If you think of a theory why versus theory X and that kind 135 00:10:41.399 --> 00:10:45.240 of thing, that you have a transformational leadership. I mean, we've been 136 00:10:45.279 --> 00:10:48.919 on these themes for a long time. In some ways. I think what's 137 00:10:48.000 --> 00:10:54.159 different is paying attention to the connection to our different identities and to the systems, 138 00:10:54.440 --> 00:10:58.679 systems of oppression or exclusion, ways in which those are covert. Right 139 00:11:00.639 --> 00:11:05.320 in twenty twenty, I think there was a broader rediscovery for many people of 140 00:11:05.320 --> 00:11:11.399 that process right of you know, when there was a kind of racial reawakening 141 00:11:11.480 --> 00:11:16.559 after George fullyg was killed, many people, I mean, some of us 142 00:11:16.600 --> 00:11:18.320 have been in this field for a very long time, and it wasn't new. 143 00:11:18.759 --> 00:11:24.600 It's something we've seen happening and that we've worked to address for a long 144 00:11:24.639 --> 00:11:30.080 time. But I think that's the additional piece that I think is so important 145 00:11:30.200 --> 00:11:33.759 in leadership context. And by the way, you know, we're talking about 146 00:11:33.840 --> 00:11:37.799 leaders people who are perhaps in positions of authorities, I think what we're referring 147 00:11:37.799 --> 00:11:39.720 to, but I like to talk about leadership, you know, is it 148 00:11:39.799 --> 00:11:46.159 something that everyone can manifest in some way, to really manifest inclusive leadership, 149 00:11:46.159 --> 00:11:48.759 which is really about, as I said, bringing inclusion to life, making 150 00:11:48.840 --> 00:11:54.080 it real at all levels of the system, in those interpersonal interactions, in 151 00:11:54.279 --> 00:11:58.759 giving people space to be authentic by modeling it, by inquiring and being curious 152 00:11:58.799 --> 00:12:05.080 about others, making it not only okay but necessary to have a space where 153 00:12:05.080 --> 00:12:09.200 we can have that feeling of not separating parts of ourselves. Right, there's 154 00:12:09.240 --> 00:12:13.480 still a zone for privacy. There are things that maybe we don't necessarily want 155 00:12:13.519 --> 00:12:16.080 to or need to be talking about all the time, but we need to 156 00:12:16.120 --> 00:12:18.159 be able to adjust to each other, to the realities of life. As 157 00:12:18.360 --> 00:12:22.679 when we prepared for this today, we checked in with each other. We 158 00:12:22.720 --> 00:12:24.279 got to know each other little bit. Where are we right now, what's 159 00:12:24.279 --> 00:12:30.480 happening in our lives that would help us really be fully present in this conversation. 160 00:12:30.879 --> 00:12:35.600 So that's the kind of sharing that I think is so important, sometimes 161 00:12:35.639 --> 00:12:39.080 not the kind that's virustic or exploitative, but the kind that helps people feel 162 00:12:39.080 --> 00:12:43.200 grounded and whole in a way where they can connect to their strengths and their 163 00:12:43.440 --> 00:12:50.039 hopes and what they're contributing to the whole in a way that's connected to who 164 00:12:50.039 --> 00:12:52.840 they are, as opposed to feeling like there's some stranger or have to adapt, 165 00:12:54.039 --> 00:12:58.080 and that feeling of having to adapt to go into that discomfort is often 166 00:12:58.120 --> 00:13:01.039 stronger for people and groups that have not been represented or that are considered weird 167 00:13:01.120 --> 00:13:07.279 or exotic or different. Right, And sometimes people look similar to people around 168 00:13:07.360 --> 00:13:09.960 them, but they have differences. Maybe they have a different family situation, 169 00:13:11.120 --> 00:13:16.679 maybe their sexual orientation is different than others, Maybe they have a different history, 170 00:13:16.679 --> 00:13:18.440 maybe they went through some trauma in their past. Maybe they're you know, 171 00:13:18.440 --> 00:13:24.879 have a neurodiverse, neurodiversity. So there's many things that are not often 172 00:13:24.919 --> 00:13:28.080 seen. And even if the things that are seen or not, you know, 173 00:13:28.080 --> 00:13:31.360 if you just go with some automatic assumption about what that means, you 174 00:13:31.360 --> 00:13:37.519 could be wrong. And so the leadership imperative is to allow space for that 175 00:13:37.360 --> 00:13:41.600 those differences and that individuality of that expression, but without losing sight of the 176 00:13:41.639 --> 00:13:48.000 fact that we are connected to those many identities and they are different for people 177 00:13:48.279 --> 00:13:52.720 in some systematic ways that have led to you know, power differences, even 178 00:13:52.759 --> 00:13:56.200 the ability to express themselves. You know, and we've heard from many people 179 00:13:56.200 --> 00:13:58.320 who say, you know, it's idea of bring your whole self to work. 180 00:13:58.519 --> 00:14:01.240 It's not as easy for some people as brothers, because when they do 181 00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:07.799 that, they get shut down, right, And so I love two things 182 00:14:07.799 --> 00:14:13.720 that you just said in particular. You know, one is being a leader 183 00:14:13.840 --> 00:14:20.120 or the word leader is different from leadership, which everyone can manifest and demonstrate. 184 00:14:20.039 --> 00:14:26.159 And the other is that it isn't always about the visible but also about 185 00:14:26.200 --> 00:14:33.200 the invisible and the lived experiences that people have which are very instrumental to who 186 00:14:33.200 --> 00:14:37.879 they become and who they are and how they act. Right. Yeah, 187 00:14:37.879 --> 00:14:41.919 and so you mentioned coaching and I think in that context it's particularly important. 188 00:14:43.000 --> 00:14:48.600 I coach a fair number of people leaders and this is a big theme. 189 00:14:48.679 --> 00:14:52.799 Right. Whether we're explicitly focusing on diversity and inclusion or not, it's still 190 00:14:52.840 --> 00:14:56.759 relevant, right. The idea of being an inclusive, exclusive leadership is relevant 191 00:14:58.320 --> 00:15:03.600 even in organizations that don't have a formal diversity and inclusion or equity initiative. 192 00:15:05.639 --> 00:15:09.639 It's this idea of really, as you mentioned, individualizing our interaction with people 193 00:15:11.000 --> 00:15:13.679 in a way that helps that where there's self insight. So part of the 194 00:15:13.720 --> 00:15:18.440 coaching process for me is helping people to give them permission to talk about these 195 00:15:18.440 --> 00:15:22.320 things, to make those connections, to not shout out part to themselves, 196 00:15:22.600 --> 00:15:26.720 to go into that vulnerability earlier in our careers rather than late. They know. 197 00:15:26.840 --> 00:15:31.360 For me, it took a long time to feel more grounded in myself, 198 00:15:31.399 --> 00:15:33.399 to give myself permission to come out more fully as who I am, 199 00:15:35.399 --> 00:15:37.960 to not feel like there's necessarily a danger in that, or even if there 200 00:15:39.000 --> 00:15:43.879 is, that it's better than hiding out because I spend so much of my 201 00:15:43.919 --> 00:15:46.200 life just trying to fit in right and to meet other people's expectations, and 202 00:15:46.639 --> 00:15:50.960 that doesn't get my best self and so part of the leadership, part of 203 00:15:52.000 --> 00:15:54.679 coaching is helping people bring that out of themselves and then model that for others. 204 00:15:54.759 --> 00:16:00.879 Right to create that safe and inviting space for others so important. So 205 00:16:02.320 --> 00:16:07.919 I want to quote a short excerpt for you and for our listeners from an 206 00:16:08.039 --> 00:16:12.480 article in The Guardian that I was reminded of as I was getting ready for 207 00:16:12.519 --> 00:16:18.720 our conversation today. It dates back to January twenty twenty, and this is 208 00:16:18.759 --> 00:16:25.519 the quote developing human minds are like sponges, and ours were submerged in ever 209 00:16:25.639 --> 00:16:33.039 more individualistic language. Phrases such as unique, personal self, me and mine 210 00:16:33.519 --> 00:16:38.000 were used with increasing frequency in lyrics, TV shows and books, and as 211 00:16:38.039 --> 00:16:44.039 an aside, I would add social media to this. Right, this immersion 212 00:16:44.120 --> 00:16:48.320 took its toll, and analysis of data from almost eighty countries shows how the 213 00:16:48.320 --> 00:16:56.519 majority have shown market increases in individualistic attitudes over recent decades. And the study 214 00:16:56.559 --> 00:17:02.840 that they're referencing was a twenty seventeen research paper titled Global Increases in Individualism and 215 00:17:02.879 --> 00:17:07.079 it looked at fifty one years of data. You know another data point in 216 00:17:07.119 --> 00:17:11.680 the US, when I contrasted to Europe and many other parts of the world, 217 00:17:12.599 --> 00:17:18.640 we have no societal tradition of public service. Right. And when I 218 00:17:18.680 --> 00:17:22.559 say public service, I don't mean everybody needs to go serve in the armed 219 00:17:22.599 --> 00:17:26.359 forces. It could be teaching at a school, it could be working at 220 00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:32.519 a local city office of some kind. Right, any kind of public service, 221 00:17:32.599 --> 00:17:37.599 and the absence of it in the US is a really marked contrast with 222 00:17:37.759 --> 00:17:45.720 many other parts of the world. I would argue that that builds community, 223 00:17:45.839 --> 00:17:52.359 and builds civic responsibility, and creates some blue and fabric among us. So 224 00:17:52.200 --> 00:18:00.839 I really struggle sometimes with the idea that inclusion focuses so much on the individual 225 00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:07.720 and their sense of belonging. And I'm really curious for your views, because 226 00:18:07.759 --> 00:18:11.519 you spend so much of your time steeped in this, working with people on 227 00:18:11.519 --> 00:18:18.720 this. That is it at all unintentionally? Perhaps? Right? Life is 228 00:18:18.759 --> 00:18:25.799 all about unintended consequences driving us apart in some way. It's an interesting conundrum. 229 00:18:25.880 --> 00:18:29.119 I think it's possible if it's framed that way, If inclusion is framed 230 00:18:29.200 --> 00:18:32.240 us let me just do whatever I want, whenever I want. I think 231 00:18:32.279 --> 00:18:36.519 we're in trouble, not only all of us, including the person who is 232 00:18:36.640 --> 00:18:41.559 doing that. I think inclusion is more complex than that. It's a systemic 233 00:18:41.759 --> 00:18:45.559 process. It's really it works at different levels. We talked about the individual 234 00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:49.480 experience of inclusion, but we have to look at both that, what leads 235 00:18:49.480 --> 00:18:53.400 to that and what it leads to And I think if we're trying to create 236 00:18:53.440 --> 00:19:00.039 more experiences of inclusion for more people, the paradox is that we have to 237 00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:03.079 adapt to each other, right. I mean, I talk about this in 238 00:19:03.119 --> 00:19:06.160 the context of comfort and discomfort. It's one of the paradoxes that I've written 239 00:19:06.200 --> 00:19:11.119 about and talk about a lot. There's at least three that I've really explained 240 00:19:11.359 --> 00:19:15.599 in detail, but I think in general there's a lot of them. This 241 00:19:15.680 --> 00:19:21.680 idea that there's seemingly contradictory elements that are really part and parcel of the phenomenon, 242 00:19:22.279 --> 00:19:26.640 even though they feel contradictory. And so comfort and discomfort is one key 243 00:19:26.680 --> 00:19:30.359 one there, And so we want to create more comfort for more people. 244 00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:33.519 So I feel free to be myself, to bring that whole self as you 245 00:19:33.640 --> 00:19:37.319 talked about, to feel more integrated as a person, rather than split apart 246 00:19:37.359 --> 00:19:40.960 from parts of myself, to tap into not only what makes me who I 247 00:19:41.000 --> 00:19:45.640 am, but where my strengths lie and what my hopes and contributions are meant 248 00:19:45.720 --> 00:19:48.960 to be so in that sense, Yes, we need to focus on ourselves. 249 00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:52.160 We need to help people develop into who they are, not who somebody 250 00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:56.400 else imagines them to be. Right at the same time, there's two things 251 00:19:56.400 --> 00:19:57.799 that come up with that. One is that the more that I do that, 252 00:19:59.039 --> 00:20:00.720 the more that we create that space, and more I'm going to run 253 00:20:00.720 --> 00:20:04.480 into people who are different, who feel weird to me, who are unique 254 00:20:04.519 --> 00:20:08.480 in some way, who don't fit my understanding of what you know, the 255 00:20:08.599 --> 00:20:12.640 typical thing is, and who might feel deviant, hopefully statistically and not morally. 256 00:20:14.160 --> 00:20:17.799 And so I'm going to have more discomfort, not less right. And 257 00:20:17.880 --> 00:20:21.680 so I to both how do I have both more comfort and more discomfort? 258 00:20:21.839 --> 00:20:25.680 And also how do we spread together? How do we together spread that discomfort 259 00:20:25.680 --> 00:20:27.799 around more equitably? As I said before, those of us who come from 260 00:20:29.599 --> 00:20:37.440 some minoritized identity or who you know, have not don't fit the standard norm 261 00:20:37.480 --> 00:20:41.359 of what's expected or whatever, may feel more discomfort than someone who just moves 262 00:20:41.359 --> 00:20:45.319 around blissfully without really thinking about it. Right where they don't have to think 263 00:20:45.359 --> 00:20:48.920 about, Okay, where am I in today and who am I today? 264 00:20:48.960 --> 00:20:52.279 They just do themselves, whereas for some people that constantly have to think about 265 00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:55.200 what am I? What am I dressing? What am I wearing? Can 266 00:20:55.240 --> 00:20:57.839 I talk about that or not? So that we want more comfort for those 267 00:20:57.880 --> 00:21:03.160 people, and the people who have been so blissful, we want some discomfort 268 00:21:03.559 --> 00:21:06.440 for them. That's a privilege that we need to really understand. Right. 269 00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:10.359 The power to sort of define reality is something that we have to spread around, 270 00:21:10.480 --> 00:21:15.519 right, and so it's about balancing that equation of comfort discomfort. But 271 00:21:15.640 --> 00:21:18.759 it's not it's goods. They're going to be in constant tens for everyone, 272 00:21:18.759 --> 00:21:22.000 right, And so we have to really think about that. How do we 273 00:21:22.119 --> 00:21:26.759 become comfortable with the discomfort of inclusion, not just assume that, Okay, 274 00:21:26.759 --> 00:21:30.559 everybody's going to just do whatever they want, whenever they want. That's the 275 00:21:30.599 --> 00:21:33.279 other piece is that inclusions not about anything goes. We really have to think 276 00:21:33.279 --> 00:21:37.279 about what does it mean to be part of a group, a community, 277 00:21:37.640 --> 00:21:41.559 a society where we are having those differences, where we believe they're important. 278 00:21:41.559 --> 00:21:45.440 Where you know, in the United States, the motto is a plural busunum 279 00:21:45.759 --> 00:21:48.519 from many one. What does that really mean? Does that mean we're all 280 00:21:48.519 --> 00:21:52.319 going to homogenize? I hope not that's really not how I understand that. 281 00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:56.599 I think what it means is that we maintain the many and by strengthening those 282 00:21:56.680 --> 00:22:02.359 many different strands, identities, perspectives, is experiences, we are stronger. 283 00:22:02.599 --> 00:22:04.680 We are a better one, right, which has all these components, like 284 00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:08.839 a quilt or a tapestry. That's the metaphor that I really like. You 285 00:22:08.839 --> 00:22:14.079 don't lose the strands or the components, but it makes much more beauty and 286 00:22:14.119 --> 00:22:19.680 strength together, right. I mean, I don't know if that fully addresses 287 00:22:19.720 --> 00:22:25.000 your question about individualism. I think that's a larger conversation because it has to 288 00:22:25.000 --> 00:22:30.119 do with sort of what's happening, you know, sociologically, demographically, so 289 00:22:30.160 --> 00:22:33.440 many other factors, some of which I'm not an expert on and I'm an 290 00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:37.480 observer, but I think they're important in this context. Right, when we're 291 00:22:37.640 --> 00:22:41.359 coaching, when we're trying to work towards strategically or otherwise to create inclusion in 292 00:22:41.480 --> 00:22:45.279 organizations, we have to be aware of that what are people bringing in, 293 00:22:45.319 --> 00:22:48.640 what's the larger culture, what's being imported, and what's being exported. Oftentimes 294 00:22:48.680 --> 00:22:53.440 it's in the workplace that people learn how to engage across differences. Right, 295 00:22:53.440 --> 00:22:59.599 We're more likely to encounter differences sometimes than in our sort of segregated existences, 296 00:22:59.680 --> 00:23:04.319 right or particularized. And so there's things that can happen in workplaces. There's 297 00:23:04.400 --> 00:23:10.519 leadership that can occur that will help the larger context right to maybe develop more 298 00:23:10.519 --> 00:23:15.880 of that notion of service or at least collaborativeness, right, co construction and 299 00:23:15.240 --> 00:23:19.400 participation. That's a hard one. It's a big challenge these days, but 300 00:23:19.480 --> 00:23:25.599 I think a lot in the workplace. You can't get anything done without collaborating, 301 00:23:25.599 --> 00:23:29.400 a partnership and complex organizations. It's a puzzle that we're all putting together. 302 00:23:29.519 --> 00:23:30.880 And if people just think me, me, me, it's not going 303 00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:34.680 to work. Yeah, we can't do it all ourselves or know everything ourselves. 304 00:23:34.680 --> 00:23:38.680 We really depend on each other. Yeah, absolutely, I couldn't agree 305 00:23:38.680 --> 00:23:45.480 more. So. I want to show our listeners another short video of you 306 00:23:45.960 --> 00:23:52.960 talking about how the role of every leader is determinative in creating an inclusive culture. 307 00:23:52.559 --> 00:24:08.880 Let's take a quick look and listen. Now, this model illustrates what 308 00:24:08.920 --> 00:24:15.440 I mean by systemic and integrative inclusion involves multiple levels of analysis and action. 309 00:24:15.759 --> 00:24:19.720 I've already talked about the individual level of the experience of inclusion, at the 310 00:24:19.759 --> 00:24:25.319 base of that model. What happens at the higher levels flows down, so 311 00:24:25.359 --> 00:24:30.480 that inclusive ideologies and values in society can affect how organizations affect address inclusion, 312 00:24:30.839 --> 00:24:37.200 as well as how we incorporate inclusive climates and that context. That organizational context 313 00:24:37.200 --> 00:24:41.559 affects how leadership is defined, what kind of leadership are we striving for, 314 00:24:41.599 --> 00:24:45.720 what kind of leadership is considered worthy, and also how leadership is expressed, 315 00:24:47.240 --> 00:24:51.440 and what leaders do to be inclusive, and that in terms of effects the 316 00:24:51.480 --> 00:24:55.640 norms and behaviors that get manifested in our work groups, and how each of 317 00:24:55.680 --> 00:24:59.960 us demonstrates inclusive behavior or doesn't towards each other, it also flows back, 318 00:25:00.279 --> 00:25:04.799 so it's down and up. My individual experience and my behavior can affect the 319 00:25:04.839 --> 00:25:08.599 norms and the values in the groups that I'm part of and how those particular 320 00:25:08.599 --> 00:25:18.880 groups function. So Pertado I mentioned earlier that we define leaders as really anyone 321 00:25:18.079 --> 00:25:23.880 at any level of the org chart that is managing a team effectively. Right, 322 00:25:25.720 --> 00:25:33.039 and you and I both know that leadership has never before in our lives 323 00:25:33.319 --> 00:25:37.440 been more important than it is now. Right, the world is in a 324 00:25:37.519 --> 00:25:44.799 very unsettled state, and time and again we see you know, either good 325 00:25:44.880 --> 00:25:52.079 leadership or the lack thereof affect every facet of our society. So I think 326 00:25:52.119 --> 00:25:59.920 it's really important for our listeners to understand in terms of the paradox that you 327 00:26:00.079 --> 00:26:04.480 were talking about earlier, which I love the comfort and discomfort coexisting and getting 328 00:26:04.480 --> 00:26:11.440 comfortable with that coexistence of those two things. What are the other two paradoxes 329 00:26:11.480 --> 00:26:15.559 that you mentioned, and I love you to tell our listeners about. Sure. 330 00:26:17.559 --> 00:26:22.640 The first one is really about this idea of whether when we are part 331 00:26:22.680 --> 00:26:26.960 of a collective, do we just let it all hang out or do we 332 00:26:26.039 --> 00:26:33.440 completely change and adapt? Right? And it's really we have to both more 333 00:26:33.519 --> 00:26:37.079 fully bring ourselves and we also have to change in some way to be part 334 00:26:37.079 --> 00:26:41.160 of that collective, right, And so's that's I think the first one. 335 00:26:41.200 --> 00:26:44.359 It's this idea of like belonging, Like what does that really look like? 336 00:26:44.480 --> 00:26:45.920 What does it mean to belong? How do I have to do myself? 337 00:26:45.960 --> 00:26:49.319 And what do we demand of each other in terms of those changes? Right? 338 00:26:51.880 --> 00:26:53.440 If I you know, I mean, let's say I just love to 339 00:26:53.480 --> 00:26:56.680 hang out in bathrooms all day, but I'm wearing a shirt today, you 340 00:26:56.680 --> 00:27:00.920 know for this UF I mean, that's not the I'm just using that as 341 00:27:00.920 --> 00:27:03.160 an example. But you know, so the question is how can I do 342 00:27:03.240 --> 00:27:07.000 that in a way that feels authentic enough, right? But that's it's related 343 00:27:07.039 --> 00:27:11.480 to what you said earlier about how do we do stuff together? There's always 344 00:27:11.559 --> 00:27:15.000 mutual adaptation, even to people, even you know, I imagine twins have 345 00:27:15.079 --> 00:27:19.240 to adapt to each other anytime we're with a different person. I mean even 346 00:27:19.359 --> 00:27:25.359 maybe sometimes even to ourselves right at different times. But it's just a nature. 347 00:27:25.440 --> 00:27:30.559 Part of human existence is mutual adaptation. The challenge is that when there's 348 00:27:30.599 --> 00:27:33.799 power involved, right, and some people have to adapt and others don't, 349 00:27:33.920 --> 00:27:37.039 or when you know, some people lose their potential contributions to the group. 350 00:27:37.359 --> 00:27:41.920 So this is not just an individual challenge, it's a collective challenge. How 351 00:27:41.920 --> 00:27:47.599 do we create a space where we find that balance right between those two imperatives 352 00:27:47.640 --> 00:27:52.799 that really coexist total you know, assimilation, which I don't think is helpful, 353 00:27:52.240 --> 00:27:56.799 or just totally letting it all hang out no matter what, regardless of 354 00:27:56.799 --> 00:28:00.359 how it affects other people the situation and what it contributes or doesn't. So 355 00:28:00.440 --> 00:28:06.119 those are the extremes that are not helpful. That connects to the second paradox. 356 00:28:06.160 --> 00:28:10.599 Which has to do with boundaries and norms. You know, inclusion is 357 00:28:10.839 --> 00:28:14.559 not as I said about letting everything go. You need a clear sense of 358 00:28:14.599 --> 00:28:17.920 what is it that people are being included into. You know, in the 359 00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:21.839 United States, I mentioned the motto when people come to the United States, 360 00:28:21.839 --> 00:28:25.079 what does it mean to be an American? Right now? If you only 361 00:28:25.160 --> 00:28:30.400 let people who were here before nineteen twenty you know, and historically define that, 362 00:28:30.599 --> 00:28:33.240 I think we lose something. But if you're constantly changing it every second, 363 00:28:33.759 --> 00:28:41.480 that's also problematical something. So it's that tension between adapting to the changes 364 00:28:41.480 --> 00:28:47.359 in ourselves and each other, as well as the composition of groups, which 365 00:28:47.400 --> 00:28:49.680 needs to happen, but not doing it so often is so much that we 366 00:28:49.880 --> 00:28:56.839 just can't get any work done. So this is an ongoing tension as well. 367 00:28:56.160 --> 00:29:00.160 So if you know, we plan something for today and we were a 368 00:29:00.160 --> 00:29:03.720 certain way of doing this and suddenly our conditions change, do we have space 369 00:29:03.759 --> 00:29:06.720 to even talk about it? And this is a tension for leaders, you 370 00:29:06.759 --> 00:29:08.559 know, especially in a coaching situation. It's like, Okay, these are 371 00:29:08.559 --> 00:29:12.359 the parameters, let's just address them. You know, too bad, just 372 00:29:12.440 --> 00:29:17.000 fit in right. I had a coaching conversation with a leader the other day, 373 00:29:17.039 --> 00:29:18.599 you know, where there was a challenge. This person is very much 374 00:29:18.680 --> 00:29:22.279 focused on being inclusive and so on, but it's challenged by people who have 375 00:29:23.359 --> 00:29:29.000 ada related accommodations sometimes because sometimes the question is like, okay, is it 376 00:29:29.039 --> 00:29:30.839 too much or we have work to get done, right, and so this 377 00:29:30.920 --> 00:29:36.000 person it's a legitimate challenge that people had, Right, So how do we 378 00:29:36.079 --> 00:29:40.279 negotiate that? What are one's obligations if I have an accommodation, what are 379 00:29:40.279 --> 00:29:45.799 my obligations or requirements to sort of manage myself versus requiring my employer or my 380 00:29:47.240 --> 00:29:49.480 manager to take care of me no matter what. Right, And it's a 381 00:29:49.519 --> 00:29:53.920 constant dance. There isn't a simple solution to that, right. It means 382 00:29:53.920 --> 00:29:57.880 engaging in dialogue and constructing what those boundaries and norms are in a way that 383 00:29:57.960 --> 00:30:03.000 works ideally for as many of us as possible, and also making it very 384 00:30:03.039 --> 00:30:07.039 clear, being very strong about the norms of inclusion, right in other words, 385 00:30:07.359 --> 00:30:12.359 really creating space for difference to me as a fundamental requirement of an inclusive 386 00:30:14.119 --> 00:30:18.880 team or organization. And so leadership it has to be very strong about that 387 00:30:18.359 --> 00:30:22.920 thing, you know, And we saw this tension it's coming to a head 388 00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:27.000 right now in this whole battle over you know, anti semitism on campuses or 389 00:30:27.079 --> 00:30:34.920 anti Palestinian statements as well, right with the congressional hearings recently where university presidents 390 00:30:34.920 --> 00:30:41.000 were challenged around you know what statements constitute violations of their policy. And I 391 00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:44.960 don't think there's a simple solution to that. I mean, I do think 392 00:30:45.039 --> 00:30:48.079 violence is terrible, but I think we need a better way to frame the 393 00:30:48.119 --> 00:30:53.039 conversation that maybe takes account of this tension and really helps people learn how to 394 00:30:53.200 --> 00:30:56.480 be together, because ultimately the issue is how can we be together in this 395 00:30:56.519 --> 00:31:03.000 one world with our differences. Isn't about one group suppressing another, Yeah, 396 00:31:03.000 --> 00:31:07.759 I mean part of the problem is that it isn't a conversation, and it's 397 00:31:07.799 --> 00:31:12.200 become a series of sound bites, right And as a result, those sound 398 00:31:12.200 --> 00:31:18.279 bites can constantly be taken out of context and then you know, sort of 399 00:31:18.319 --> 00:31:26.839 whip up whatever impressions they have the effect of whipping up. And in the 400 00:31:26.839 --> 00:31:33.039 same way that for leaders to be effective, or for leadership to be effective, 401 00:31:34.200 --> 00:31:44.400 one has to learn and manifest the patience and interest to kind of meet 402 00:31:44.440 --> 00:31:49.160 every individual where they are. I think in our society. We need to 403 00:31:49.279 --> 00:31:56.079 manifest the patience and the empathy to understand situations in a holistic way rather than 404 00:31:56.240 --> 00:32:00.880 just kind of grab onto the sound bite and form a judgment. I think 405 00:32:00.960 --> 00:32:07.920 this sort of tendency to opinion and judgment and the constant sharing thereof is just 406 00:32:08.039 --> 00:32:15.279 increasingly problematic. Yes, and I think you know, as you're speaking, 407 00:32:15.359 --> 00:32:20.160 what I'm thinking about is another element that perhaps we haven't fully discussed. We 408 00:32:20.240 --> 00:32:23.960 kind of alluded to it. But the idea is that all developing individually and 409 00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:29.079 collectively. This idea of a static self, I think is part of the 410 00:32:29.119 --> 00:32:32.160 problem, and it also relates to this tension around individualism that we talked about. 411 00:32:32.359 --> 00:32:36.519 Yeah, so if we can really think about ourselves as becoming and really 412 00:32:36.519 --> 00:32:38.920 thinking about where are we going to get influenced? You know, what's going 413 00:32:38.960 --> 00:32:46.880 to influence us to become our best selves? What is going to who are 414 00:32:46.880 --> 00:32:51.559 my reference points? You know? How do you retain a learning mindset? 415 00:32:51.839 --> 00:32:55.480 Right? Absolutely exactly, And so that's another part of the imperative. Another 416 00:32:55.519 --> 00:33:00.640 imperative for inclusive leadership is creating that mindset for oneself in one's team and in 417 00:33:00.640 --> 00:33:04.720 one's organization in a way that isn't about me telling you what to do. 418 00:33:04.759 --> 00:33:07.480 That's why I try to avoid the word training. I love the coaching approach 419 00:33:07.480 --> 00:33:14.359 because it's really about people discovering their own solutions. It's about co creating some 420 00:33:14.480 --> 00:33:20.559 kind of future that is grounded in one's own aspirations, identities, background, 421 00:33:21.480 --> 00:33:24.880 but also being open to new influences and possibilities. This idea of just these 422 00:33:25.000 --> 00:33:29.839 completely separate groups that are totally different, or this idea every group has been 423 00:33:29.839 --> 00:33:34.640 influenced by others too. Human history is about those relationships, right, So 424 00:33:34.720 --> 00:33:37.000 this idea that this is this culture and this is this culture and they have 425 00:33:37.240 --> 00:33:43.079 completely separate is problematic, right, And I think if we can touch and 426 00:33:43.160 --> 00:33:45.759 get in touch with how that is true for us individually and then how that 427 00:33:45.799 --> 00:33:51.240 plays out in workplaces or collaborative efforts, I think we can address this. 428 00:33:51.319 --> 00:33:55.400 But development is so important. What are we growing into as ourselves and in 429 00:33:55.519 --> 00:34:00.279 our work together? And so how do we co construct a relationship ship, 430 00:34:00.359 --> 00:34:05.319 whether it's temporary or long term or whatever it is? Right, we're in 431 00:34:05.359 --> 00:34:09.039 relationship with each other with our differences, and so we have to negotiate how 432 00:34:09.119 --> 00:34:13.239 much we adapt to each other, what our boundaries and ORMs are and how 433 00:34:13.280 --> 00:34:17.119 we deal with comfort in discomfort going back to these tensions or paradoxes. Yeah, 434 00:34:17.159 --> 00:34:24.480 absolutely, supernaro. Last question, our mission as a company is to 435 00:34:24.519 --> 00:34:32.280 activate, accelerate, and elevate people using coaching. And when you think about 436 00:34:32.320 --> 00:34:39.239 your own life and work, who has been or maybe it's more than one, 437 00:34:39.280 --> 00:34:45.960 but who has been the best coach or set of coaches that you've had 438 00:34:45.159 --> 00:34:54.519 during your life and experience? Wow? Well I wasn't prepared for that. 439 00:34:54.519 --> 00:35:00.840 That's okay, Yeah, yeah, maybe I can tell you the kind of 440 00:35:00.360 --> 00:35:05.800 coach or inspiration as opposed to a specific person. I think people who have 441 00:35:06.559 --> 00:35:09.559 seen the positive in me, who have helped me see the positive in myself 442 00:35:09.679 --> 00:35:14.519 right, who have helped me develop more confidence and less self criticism. I 443 00:35:14.559 --> 00:35:17.559 tend to be very self critical and now to get rid of negative self talk. 444 00:35:19.400 --> 00:35:23.880 Yeah, and which for me is related to negative talk about others critique. 445 00:35:24.239 --> 00:35:28.559 Right, As a professor, it was very hard for me to you 446 00:35:28.559 --> 00:35:30.360 know, when I would read a dissertation or a paper. I mean, 447 00:35:30.360 --> 00:35:35.000 I can't tell you how many students I tortured, right, I feel bad 448 00:35:35.039 --> 00:35:37.880 about it, but it's also kind of was my style and in some way 449 00:35:37.960 --> 00:35:40.639 still is there in me, and I really have to proactively learn. I've 450 00:35:40.679 --> 00:35:45.320 proactively learned to be more positive, to take an appreciative approach, to find 451 00:35:45.320 --> 00:35:49.639 the strengths in other people and in myself and say, hey, that was 452 00:35:49.679 --> 00:35:52.280 great. I loved when you did that. Thank you for that. You 453 00:35:52.320 --> 00:35:57.199 know, I really appreciated that particular thing. That's taken some growth on my 454 00:35:57.239 --> 00:36:00.440 part. So the people that have done that for me. You know, 455 00:36:01.719 --> 00:36:05.679 a director of my program when I was a professor who sat me down and 456 00:36:05.679 --> 00:36:08.079 said, what are your goals in the future, as opposed to other directors 457 00:36:08.079 --> 00:36:10.440 who just wanted to use me as a token, you know, to achieve 458 00:36:10.480 --> 00:36:15.360 whatever they wanted. That was so refreshing and helpful. Right, So that 459 00:36:15.480 --> 00:36:19.360 inspired me, you know, to find to do that for others, to 460 00:36:19.400 --> 00:36:22.599 pass it on. Right. So I think you know, a colleague of 461 00:36:22.719 --> 00:36:27.960 very close colleague who I want asked this question of how can I be more 462 00:36:28.000 --> 00:36:30.480 kind to students, and she said, well, be kind to yourself. 463 00:36:30.480 --> 00:36:34.440 I mean that just hit me and in a very powerful way, and it's 464 00:36:34.440 --> 00:36:36.679 stuck with me. I mean, I don't remember the exact quote, but 465 00:36:37.119 --> 00:36:39.079 the feeling just stuck with me for you know, has been with me for 466 00:36:39.119 --> 00:36:43.199 fifteen twenty years, you know, and it's something I strive for. You 467 00:36:43.239 --> 00:36:45.880 know, when I critique something, it's still hard to do because I immediately 468 00:36:45.960 --> 00:36:49.840 go to what's we're saying? Right, I can't spritique me about that, 469 00:36:51.280 --> 00:36:53.960 And so it's an ongoing process. But also recognizing that so people who are 470 00:36:54.000 --> 00:36:58.639 vulnerable themselves and model it for me but are still powerful, you know, 471 00:36:58.679 --> 00:37:01.800 to me, that's also been the kind of coach and leader that has really 472 00:37:01.840 --> 00:37:07.760 inspired me and helped me find my style. Amazing. That's a great note 473 00:37:07.840 --> 00:37:12.320 to end on. I think we should all be kinder to ourselves. Absolutely. 474 00:37:12.400 --> 00:37:15.800 Thank you, yes, thank you so much for being with us today. 475 00:37:15.320 --> 00:37:22.679 Thank you, it's been great. Thanks for listening. Please subscribe wherever 476 00:37:22.719 --> 00:37:27.440 you listen and leave us a review. Find your ideal coach at www dot 477 00:37:27.679 --> 00:37:32.559 viidmix dot com. Special thanks to our producer Martin Maluski and singer songwriter Doug Allen.