This podcast episode is brought to you by Coors Light. These days, everything is go, go go. It's NonStop hustle all the time. Work, friends, family, expect you to be on twenty four seven. Well, sometimes you just need to reach for a Coors Light because it's made to chill. Coors Light is cold loggered, cold filtered, and cold package. It's as crisp and refreshing as the Colorado Rockies. He's literally made to chill. Coors Light is the one I choose when I need to unwind. So when you want to hit reset, reach for the beer that's made to chill. Get Coors Light and the new look delivered straight to your door with drizzling or Instacart. Celebrate responsibly. Coors Brewing Company, Golden Colorado. Hey, everyone is Lindsay Rhodes and I've got a new podcast, The NFL road Show, fun and kind of nerdy conversation about the NFL every Monday, Wednesday and Friday. Got some amazing guests that are joining me. I'll be breaking the huddle with the top stories, previewing games. We'll get you set for the weekend fantasy with our Fantasy Friday episodes, and we'll answer some of your questions as well, So subscribe to the NFL Road Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts. What is all part of the Knocks listeners, I am Banta Valley coming out without my co host Adam Promwell. Today we are going to keep our team look Ahead Train on the roll, and I'm super excited as ever to be joined by two goats. Yes that is correct, two goats. We begin with the Indiana Pacers, and who else was I going to bring on other than Kaitlyn Cooper who covers the team for Indie Cornrows. She is one of the best basketball writers out there, just her ability to see and think the game and then communicate that into words with an actual voice. One of my favorite writers out there. You should follow her on Twitter if you are not already at C two underscore Cooper spelled exactly as it sounds. We then go into the New York Knicks with Seth Rosenthal, who is one of my favorite writers, although he does not write anymore for posting and toasting, he's at eSPI Nation, one of the creatives and minds behind Secret Base. You should check them out. Follow him on Twitter if you're not already at SETH Underscore Rosenthal, that's at set H Underscore r O sn thh Al had a great conversation with him. It was nice to talk with another Knicks fan. It was very cathartic. As I say on the pod, am a debtingly disenchanted nick san But there's a lot of optimism in that podcast, so be sure to check it out. As ever, though, please, please, pretty please remember to rate, review and subscribe to this podcast. Wherever you consume your podcast, make sure you're downloading every episode. If you have done all those things, take people's phones or tell them he shouldn't be taking people's phones. Would be close enough to do that, so tell them to go to Hardwood Knocks on iTunes and subscribe and throw us that fire. Start rating in review. We of course want subscriptions and downloads from wherever else you are getting your podcast, but iTunes, whether you use it or not, head over there. Use those numbers. It helps us out a ton. Without further delay, though, let's go into the weeds with the Indiana Pacers with Caitlyn Cooper from Indie corn Rows, and then let's go talk some New York Nicks with sp Nations Secret Bases. Seth Rosenthal, Caitlin Welcome back to the Hardwood Knox Podcast. I was looking through the meetings that I've I've had like over the past few months, because I thought I felt like we talked to semi recently that it also felt like it was really long ago, and it was more so really long ago, and I think that just proves that I have no concept of time anymore. So, So how are you doing. I'm doing well. Yeah, I mean it does feel like I remember talking to you, but I think when was it last March? It was I think it was it was April. And when I was doing these these teams look aheads, I was trying to do like teams that I didn't really spend so much time on over the off season, and I was like, oh, well, the Pacers I kind of just talked about like having a singular pod for them. And then it's like, you know, April really wasn't that, you know, close to where we are now, which is almost Christmas. Yeah, and a lot has changed. I feel like I've written about like three different Pacers teams in the last twelve months, so their really changing. Yes, yes, a team without Oladipo a team with Oladipo, a team without Sabonis, and now a team with a completely different system, So lots of changes to keep track of. So I know it's been and I'll confess at the top, I've not watched basically any of the Pacers preseason. Have you taken away, like any major impressions of what they're going to look like during and you've written a lot about it, but now that you've seen even more, we're seeing an actual live gameplay. Have you taken away anything about how they're going to play under Yorker and just just moving forward into this season and how different that's going to be compared to how they were playing under Nate McMillan in years past. Right, So the big one is the shot profile, Like, without even having watched them, you could probably see if you looked at the box scores they took over forty three's and all three of those games, which last year they did that twice in seventy two games. Yeah, once against Toronto and once against Milwaukee, which makes sense because those are two teams that give up a lot of threes by how their defenses are set. So yeah, that's that's what's gonna jump off the page. The most is that they're taking a much more modern shot profile. I mean, even in the one game against Philly, the third one, I made a joke because Malcolm Brogden came off a screen and dribbled was like into a fifteen footer and had tons of space even with Ben Simmons to recover to take the shot, and he's self checked out of it and dribbled out of it. So like, and you'll even notice like guys who wouldn't have taken threes, Like you're not like how much do you see t J McConnell or Edmund Sumner, like spot up for three. There's one minute in transition where you see Edmund sum They're like check his feet and make sure that he moves back into the corner so that he can take a three. So that's the big one. But I would say that they really, really really want to be like a mixture of the Round and the Yorkrans team with the Santa Cruz Warriors when he was in the G League. Their defensive system mirrors that G League team quite a bit. And then if people follow me on my timeline, like they've run probably five or six different raptors sets, lots of different raptor concepts, which now make me wonder how much of that was like some of the Orkrans brain power up there that he's now or you know, maybe he just is borrowing it from Nick Nurse. Either way, a lot across over there. The defensive system, which I'm sure we'll get into later, but you're going to see a lot of ball pressure from this team, picking up full court, picking up three quarters court, and I mean at the very least they're typically picking up at half court. So that's a big difference from their conservative system a year ago. And then like they're still running a lot like kickstarting a lot of their plays with pick and roll and double drags, Like you're going to see a lot of that, but they're getting more of their shots from spot ups and transition. So it's not like a one and done play out of the pick and roll where Sabonus or Miles or shooting directly out of it or the ball handler. Is the balls moving around a little bit more. I mean, the best example I could give of that is when training camp was happening, they Pacer Sports and Entertainment shared some clips out of there, and I was like, Oh, that set looks really familiar. They're only showing like half the court, and it was something that the Pelicans used to run with Anthony Davis and DeMarcus Cousins. And basically it's a double drag connected to a stagger connected to another stagger, So instead of just coming off a pick, you're getting six screens out of it with shooters just you know, kind of swirling around the perimeter. So a lot more movement, a lot more passing, and a lot more emphasis on the three is what I would say are the biggest changes with Yorker, and by comparison to old Nate, you is the having looked at the numbers, is the transition like bump, is that something that you expect to stick? Because again, I know we're dealing with a three game sample size here, but it was when I checked on Sunday night, they were twenty one point two percent I think of their possessions were coming in transition and they were at thirteen point five percent last year, which seems like a pretty big jump. Sure, I mean, and I think some of that has to do with preseason. I mean, let's be honest, not everybody's always insanely motivated to to be guarding in a preseason game. But that was the most unifying quality. Like when I was writing my profile on Buorker in right around the time when he got hired, they kept saying that the front runner was Chris Finch, So I didn't think I was going to need all the research that I had done on Buorker, and so I kind of pulled the plug on it. But I had watched all of his G League teams, at least some games from every team, and the one thing that you could telecrest all of them was that they they were all top five in pace, and you could see that there was an emphasis, and certainly in Santa Cruz that team was the worst offensive team that year but the number one defensive team, so it was really important for them to be pressuring up on the ball, enforcing turnovers and getting transition opportunities that way, which is what you're seeing from the Pacers in the three preseason games. So I don't think it might. It might not stick to the level that it is right now, because I think generally pace tapers off from preseason regular system, but I think that that will be a fixture of what you can expect from them because that appears to be what they're base defenses. So when you're talking about like the stylistic or functional differences of like this Pacers team how they want to play compared to last year's, I feel like it ends up impacting like a ton of guys a bunch. But is there one And I know you just wrote the piece about Sabonus, I'm wondering if it's him. Is there a player in particular that you think ends up being most impacted by the way that the Pacers are looking to play under Bjorkin. Yeah, that's a good question, like with the bonus for me, Like, he's taken threes in the preseason, but he's only made one, so I don't know if we can really expect. And obviously that's three games. And I know he said it's something that he worked on, but he also had planner fasciitis for a good portion of the off season period, so I don't know how much he was able to do. But not super sold that he's going to develop deeper range. I mean, we'll wait and see, and even if he does, it's kind of a matter of how much our opponent's going to care even if he is knocking in a couple of those, like I think that you'd probably still sag off of him to a degree. But yeah, so with Bjorkrant going into it, I kind of expected, like there was a lot of comparisons being thrown around about, you know, like Turner and Sabonis to how the Raptors would have used Abacca and Gasol, which to me was a little bit of a false equivalency because the Raptors didn't play Abaca and Gasol that much, Like that's a spot look based on matchups, whereas these are two starters and they're not even that similar because Abaca is a better three point shooter to this point in his career than Miles has been and Mark Gasol obviously pops a lot more than Sabonis does. But I never really tossed around in my head that they might use Sabonis like Pascal Siakam, and yet they are. Like I was very pro during the downtime that I wanted Sabonis to be used more as a ball handler because if you could use that, then you can spread the floor with his playmaking, and you could kind of see in the postseason how much like Bam completely altered everything they did in that playoff series because they were either running pick and rolls at Bam, which was obviously incredibly ill sited, but you kind of understood why they were doing it because when they weren't running pick and rolls at him, he was roaming off of Miles or whoever was out there that he was guarding, like he just wasn't. The heat were basically like, you know, we're fine if your center beats us hitting jump shots. So every driving lane was being pinched and clogged. But if you like, if you can envision that Sabonis is out there, for one, he could have punished a switch more effectively than what you can do with Turner at the five. But also if BAM's guarding Sabonis as a playmaker and you're doing some of these Pascal Siakam like things where a guard is handing the ball off to him and he's attacking, then Bam has to be occupied by that person with the ball, even if he's sagging off some Then you can use a backscreen and Sabonus can get to the basket, and that's really going to open up his passing if he comes and collapses on to a guy when there's no rim protector there, then he's making a quick past, you know, TJ. Warren crashing from the corner or even to a corner shooter. So I think that that is going to be impactful for what they could do in a playoff series as far as like the biggest jump, I think it's gonna matter that shooters like Doug McDermott and Justin Holiday might be a little more seen in this offense than what they would have been under Nate McMillan. I mean, I've used this stat many times, but Doug McDermott in the last two playoff series has attempted three corner threes and seven games because he didn't play in the one game against Boston, but I mean three total, so very much. Yeah, I mean that's not what you're paying him to be as a floor spacer. I mean, granted, like he's going to get somewhat dusted off the floor by switches on both ends, so like I'm not expecting a ton there, but you need to be able to get high quality shots and they haven't really been able to do that. But right away out of this you're seeing like for both you know, a Doug McDermott and a Miles Turner. They've already run ato specifically to get those guys shots with pin and screens, whether it's at the sideline or at the top of the key. So I think that both of them have a chance to be better established from the three point line in this system than what they were the last several years. And so you would, but you would paint yourself, I guess skeptical that Sabonus will have like I don't even know what the word would be, like sustainable ranger, that that becomes like a fairly frequent part of his game, taking above the breakthrees. I mean, I think he's I think that they want him to take some of them and certainly would become a more complete player. I mean, like you look at Yokish, It definitely made him a more complete player in that series against the Clippers that he could step out there and hit a three when zoo Watch was garden him. I think that he'll they'll have him taking them. I just question if he's going to be able to make enough of them that in a playoff series that people would really care. But then maybe you know, if he's hitting those wide open ones. It adjustice adjusts some, but I mean you saw that with Miles in the playoffs that I mean, and he's a much better shooter than Sabonis is, and there was just so many times where the heat just didn't care. But we'll see, is there like I feel like there weren't any like updates on his like plant or fascia injury really before the season. Is that like still a like an issue, Like is he just fine after that? I mean, there really weren't that many updates period. If we meet, yeah, they said. I remember Kevin Pritchard gave an interview and it was interesting because Sabonis actually wanted to play in the November qualifying window for Lithuania. Like the Pacers had received a letter from the Lithuanian Basketball Federation, which by the way, is headed by his dad, telling them that he wanted to play, which seemed like a pretty good indicator of like, oh, he must be healthy. Well that was before they knew the season was going to start in the training camp was going to open on December first. But it was kind of interesting, like, well it would be a safe environment because they had a bubble situation over there in FIBA and if he wanted to work his way back. But that was like my first indicator that while he must be doing recently, and then when they asked about it, they said that they're still going to have to like they'll watch him and make sure that they weren't like over taxing him during training camp. But I mean, he hasn't really shown any signs to me in the three games that he has any limitations. But apparently it's contagious because t J. Warren. Now, yeah, it's still a nursing planner of ascitis as well. So twenty twenty has already reshaped how we work and it's almost over. Businesses across the globe are challenged to be their most efficient, which means every hire is critical. Well Indeed is here to help. Unlike other sites, Indeed gives you full control and payment flexibility over your hiring. You only pay for what you need, You can pause your account at any time, and there are no long term contracts. 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The numbers is preseason, so I tend not to really care, but they're not great, And I think, more to the point, I was tended to be more optimistic on him after watching whatever was thirteen games before the league went on stoppage and then the bubble happened, and it felt like he was further away from his former self and that he looked even more like I felt like there were times in Pacers games where he was actively detrimental. It felt like he was hijacking possessions. And so my twofold question is how has he looked and argue more optimistic leading into you know what he's gonna look like or the players is going to be in the middle of the season, and then if he's not, if he can't get back to that player, if you have confidence that he can exist within kind of the larger dynamic of how this team wants to play on offense, yeah, I mean there's so much murkiness with him. The very last game before the hiatus, when the Pacers played the Celtics, he looked he had flashes. Then in the last playoff game against the Heat he showed a little bit more I thought, and then in the last preseason game as well. But what you notice all three of those games have something in common, which is it was aided by him having some hot shooting, which I don't know is sustainable for him game in and game out. And the other thing that all three games had in common is that his defender was ducking under the picks and like that's what opponents are doing a lot like Danny Green. I don't know what was going on in that last preseason game, but he was like dying on every screen, Like I don't just don't know how much motivation the Sixers had necessarily, but I mean it's important that Oladipo can hit those looks so that opponents aren't continuing to do that, because last year during the regular season, I looked up on Synergy that opponents were ducking under on nineteen percent of the screens that he had the ball on. And then obviously he's already having trouble getting into the paint, so then if he's seeing that extra defender, it's not really helping matters. But like you'll still see that like his go to move, he gets a switch, he wants to retreat, dribble a few times, and then you know, attack with his speed, Like that's what was really special about him for some of those games, clear back in twenty seventeen eighteen when he was in the series against Cleveland, and still now it's like his brakes just aren't necessarily there, Like he had one of those moments against Philly and it's like he just can't stop to use that as a springboard like he would have before. And for some reason his handle has just gotten like really messy. Like he makes some of the fanciest passes now, like a lot of flashy passes to Sabonis, but then like two minutes later, it's like the paint is lava, and when he gets in there, he just like loses control of the ball, especially with his left right cross And I don't know if that's impacted by something, you know, mental or physical with regard to the injury, but there's not a lot of season for me to even though you can see that like his ideal self, like he's great free wheeling in the pick and roll, like that's that's where he's going to be good. But when you watch what he's doing, it's like there's not a strong argument for him to be doing that in place of Malcolm Brogden or not, you know, taking a lot of those possessions from Brogden at this point, which creates kind of an interesting dynamic between the two of them because obviously Brogden and Milwaukee thrived having more spot up opportunities and some of that will just come naturally. And what type of offense bi orcan's running like that he can come off a double drag, relocate and then get a spot up shot. But if Oladipo isn't sharp and being able to make which he did have one really nice pass where he just out of the flow of dribbles the left hand made a hook pass back over his shoulder to Brogden at the slot, and it was like, oh, you know, that's showing me something. But like, if he can't hit those on time and on target, then Brogden's getting more contested threes. He's not going to get as many opportunities away from the ball. But maybe some of that corrects itself, because Brogden did say that he put in a lot of work on off the dribble threes during the off season, and you've seen some of those returns here in the first three games, especially going to his left. So maybe it's not as big of a deal, but it does make their fit a little more awkward for sure for Brogden, is it like are you then it sounds like you would be optimistic then that he has just a much more efficient year. I mean one he was he was banged up, He had like a just a bunch of different injuries last year, and then as you kind of just hinted at, his shot profile just changed the great deal when you look at just the screpancy from what he went on you know, catch and shoot threes to pull up threes like just night and day from what they were in Milwaukee. He did, however, shoot thirty two point three percent on wide open threes. So is there like any cause for concern there, or as you just mentioned, do you just think that he's gonna want he's healthier, And then too, there's just gonna be even if Oladipo isn't able to open up Brogden's game for him, that he's just going to get better opportunities within the flow of one a different offense. But I think you could also argue a healthier offense too. Yeah, I mean, I think last December he dislocated and, like I believed, partially tour attendant in his finger, and that's when you really started seeing a dip in the shooting. And then in February it just kind of seemed like he was generally like his body was just wearing down. There was moments where he looked kind of brittle, And you do have to wonder because I made a couple of crazy stats, like in that playoff series against the Heat and the first round, nobody had. The only player that had a higher time of possession in the first round of the playoffs was Luca don Chich. Then Brogden like that's insane all on its own, and then the only player who averaged more passes per game in the first round of the playoffs was Yokich, So like that just tells you how much of burden he was having to bear until like Victor can get back to being able to attack more one on one, and that they didn't have sabonus as a playmaker in that series as well. So obviously, like getting Sabonis back and having some more of that playmaking will help. But as you said, like with the Milwaukee comparison, like when I was right about him saying that he had worked on going left off the dribble, I looked and the stat just like blew me away. Janice and mill In Brogden's last season in Milwaukee assisted Brogden for more field goals than the Pacers did as a team last year Brogden assisted. Yes, yes, Janice assisted Brogden for eighty five field goals and the Pacers of the team assisted him for eighty one. So yeah, I think that the offense, I think he has a chance, Like he's still running, Like I think his pick and roll percentage in the playoffs or his frequency was still over thirty percent, But I think for the season last year it was up over forty, so obviously it's less. I think that there's still the compelling reason that he needs to be the primary ballhandler, and I think that's why he knew that he needed to work on being able to create some space with him off the dribble and being able to go a little bit more east west than so much north south. But the one question that I do have to your point is, and again we'll get into this, but like the defense makes me wonder how well Brogden is going to hold up across the full scale of this season with how aggressive they're being with the ball pressure and what they're doing with the rotations. Like, that's just gonna be to me, a heavy load for a guy who already showed last year that like and a lot of it was freak injuries, but through no fault of his own. I mean, he dislocated his finger, he had hamstring problems, he had toward the tendon that had to do with his hip or like whatever that was at the back end of the season, and then had back spasms twice, had a concussion, Like you know, it's just a lot and that isn't just an isolated season, like obviously he also had Planner Fascyidis issues with the Bucks. Like, I don't know that pressuring the ball to this level is something that's gonna be great for him offensively, But we'll see as the season goes on, maybe the conditioning helps and we'll see. Yeah, he's been I don't know if low key is the right word. Maybe it just feels like a zillion years since he was with the Bucks, given how twenty twenty went. But he just had like a bunch of different injuries in his career. I think two eighteen he had like a partially torn tending too. So he's like not the most durable player, or he's at least he's injury prone. Even if he's been available in certain seasons, it always seems like he's just banged up a ton. Yeah, so, I mean, and he mentioned that that, like he knows that, you know, availability is the best ability, and he's tried to prepare his body for a long season. So but there also wasn't a long off season to prepare to do that, Like, I mean, these guys didn't have a lot of weeks. I mean, and that's part of the reason why I questioned some of what they're doing defensively, like did you know, like heat cults are just has done that happen overnight with what they do to train people, So like with what the Pacers are expecting defensively, did they have enough ample time to condition to do this? Like and how long throughout the season is it going to take for you to be conditioned to do it? Like, I don't know. Yeah, there's just and maybe this isn't as big a problem for them because they're not dealing with one a ton. I mean, well there they have a new coach, So it is you're looking at just like not really having a training camp basically and just being thrown into the fire. And so you're adjusting to a new coach, and then maybe it helps that you don't have a bunch of new players as well, or you're not trying to integrate like major rookies like some other teams, but just looking at every squad that has the you know, the issue of just like time to get it together. And so now you're throwing in the fact that some of these guys were so banged up last year. You know, Oladipo really barely played last season. Brockton was like banged up. It's like, do they actually have enough? Like how long it is going to take their conditioning to get up to snuff given that the regular season is basically starting right I mean, and TJ. Warren has been out as well for the last I mean, he's week to week. They're expecting him to play in the preseason opener, but it's not like he's been out there. Miles Turner was out with illness for two of the preseason games. So like the projected lineup that they like to remind everybody all the time only played eighty six minutes last year, still hasn't gotten a lot of reps at practice, especially because I mean, Biorkern flat out said that he doesn't know what a starting lineup for Wednesday is going to be. And he's been playing a lot, like you the videos that come out of practices, he's been playing a lot of hybrid lineups, like they wanted to evenly disperse the talent to try to boost competition. He wanted to get a look at a lot of different combinations. So yeah, I mean, I don't know how much, Like I think Rostercott knewity matters in the sense that like you know, where a guy wants to get the ball or where he wants to catch it. But I mean they've even said that they haven't implemented all of their offense yet because they spent so much time, like because the defense is so radically different. That's what they spent a lot of the beginning time of training camp focused on, and they've been adding stuff as they go, So I don't know if they'll be able to hit the ground running as well as as returning that much of your roster would would lead you to believe. Do you think, at least to start the season, is TJ weren't going to end up like in the starting five after not playing in the preseason, or do you think they have will come off the bench to start well. I mean that's maybe the most valid question because I have a lot of thoughts about how they're going to use him. And that's why I was, you know, other than how good he was in the bubble and broken up that we didn't get to see him play in the preseason, was that we don't know how they intend on you using him. I mean, it was interesting in the aftermath of like trying to get Gordon Hayward. Kevin Pritchard like admitted, like, we went as hard as we possibly could to get a player. Obviously he didn't name Gordon Hayward, but it was Gordon Hayward. And then in the same breath later on he's saying, how you know much TJ. Warren thrived playing at the four in Orlando, which was evident that he did, like there was a lot of benefits to that. But then he's also saying that Turner and Sabonus are complimentary and that Goga needs to get developmental minutes. I'm like, these these five things can't all be true at the same time, so it is going to be interested to see. I mean, obviously, I think once TJ. Warren is healthy and his foot allows, he needs to be a starter. But yeah, I mean, how do they balance getting him minutes at the four? Does he play more with bench lineups? And then as that moving, you know, maybe that moves justin more a little bit more to his natural position. But then are you just benching Doug McDermott, Like, obviously you get a good chunk of offense running DHO in the wavelength that exists between Sabonis and McDermott. So I don't know how exactly they balance out what they want to do with TJ with the double big lineup and with getting Goga the development that he very clearly needs. So do you think it's going to be a focus looking at TJ Warren to maybe uh stagger him from Oladipo since those two who really didn't have an opportunity to play together last season, and given what he was able to do in the bubble, where there seems like if you have brogged in and you have Oladipo and you have Warren, I mean that even Sabonus is going to factor under there that there's some just like you want all those guys to have touches and Warren Warren can shoot and like he doesn't necessarily need the ball. But given what he was able to show in the bubble, do you think there's a focus on trying to get him in situations where maybe he is leading bench heavy units or is that going to be more of a focus to do with Sabonis because that naturally helps staggers the dual big partnership off he and Turner. Right, So, I mean, I think I think we'll still see Sabonis as the through line between units because he logged minutes with the bench in the three preseason games. But as you say, you know TJ wasn't there. Yeah, a lot of in the seating games, A lot of the attention was put on the fact that TJ was taking seven threes per game, which which was great, like eliminating. Not that I don't hate that he has the mid range game. I think that's great for when opponents leverage him into needing the mid range game. But I thought it was important for him to expand his game out and he said that Nate McMillan encouraged him to do that, and he did, but it didn't get as much attention that he was doing so much more on ball Like normally he's a guy moving like left to right off of you know, curl cuts or you know, fading off a cut and then going to work in mid range from there. But when they were in the bubble, he was running some pick and rolls. He was taking pull up threes, he was beating fours up the floor and transition. They were running some four or five pick and roll coming off iverson cuts and going into isolations, dabbling in the midpost, like there was just a lot more versatility to his scoring arsenal and yeah, does that maintain? And if you're out there at the same time as Oladipo and Brogden, the minutes when Oladipo played with the bench in the bubble were not very good. Like I think that they were like minus ten when Oladipo was out there without Warren. But also like Oldipo just wasn't ready to be a top option, and that was pretty clear. I don't think that you'll see a lot of minutes where Oladipo is playing with the bench, but because they want TJ to get some minutes at the four, I could see there being cases where TJ's out there, like let's say Sabonus goes to the bench earlier in the game so that he can come back in with the bench. I think you'll see that window where TJ maybe plays at the four with Miles, depending upon how they see those two bigs. I mean, like I said, I find it kind of interesting that a lot of the interviews that Bjorkan's given, like he'll he'll say, well, absolutely they can play together, but then he'll like later on be like, well when they're out there together at times like it leads you to believe that they're going to be staggered quite a bit, which opens up a whole another can of worms. But I think you might see minutes when Warren is separate from Oladipo, but it will more likely be Warren playing with a hybrid unit and Oladipo playing more with other starters. If that makes sense. No, that makes sense based on what we saw. Uh so, what are your expectations for how Miles Turner is going to one be used and too fair under Nate Jorgan? And look, I mean you know that like I can't. I can't quit Myles Turner. Like I'm obsessed with Miles Turner. I think he can be so good. And I don't know if this is an oversimplification, but based off one stuff that you've wrote and then you know when you watch Turner, is it could It's just be simplified down to like, hey, he needs to take I guess smarter shots and stand in smarter spots, and it feels like that would just unleash like his offensive games specifically. I just honestly can't believe that we've reached the point where the Celtics weren't intrigued enough by Turner McDermott at a first for for Gordon Hayward, Like wrap my head around, Like you would rather have Tristan Thompson at nine plus million than have Miles Turner at his price point, which I still just view as good. And I feel like the general perception of Miles Turner at least Nashally has just dipped so much, and I just I kind of get it. But is it fair to be so low on Turner's outlook? Right? I mean it's hard and like everything that comes out of Boston, I always feels kind of hard to read through whenever they're involved in trade talks. I mean, it didn't really seem to me like stuff that you read from various reporters out there that the Celtics were all that concerned with upgrading their center position, Like I think that they valued they're off the dribble attack and their versatility. They're more like I think they're gonna miss Gordon Hayward. But I mean if they wanted it because they wanted somebody who could rebound or fit into a switching scheme or provide a little bit more physicality than I can kind of see why you would pay Tristan Thompson at like the mid level money versus committing eighteen million to Miles, even though Miles. I think I think Miles would have made them better. Like I'm not like, I don't think we need to act like Miles Turners an albatross by any means, but he can be frustrating at times, and I think that some of it gets caught up in like there seems to be a lot of emphasis on like let's blame Nate McMillan for all of this, And some of it I think is valid, like when he's picking and popping, they're needed to be like, hey, pop to the three point line, But then it becomes you know, and I mentioned this in the long thing that I wrote about Miles is it kind of brings up an interesting question about coaching and player development, because whose responsibility is it? Like you need to set a higher screen so that he can maintain his footwork pattern and still be able to attempt a three, or does Miles need to alter his footwork pattern so he can step back behind the three point line because he's very much a guy who wants to step into his shot when he pops, but yet then they're having him set the screen at the three point line, like that's not going to be particularly conducive for that. That being said, the times where he's taking a long two and there's nobody forcing him to do that, that needs to go. But I also think there's moments where it has not a lot to do with Nate McMillan, and it has to do with Miles Turner having confidence and actually shooting when the shot is there, Like you can't be you can't be getting a switch against Dallas at the three point line and then be going into a you know, an awkward dribble handoff and throwing a crenade to p J McConnell in the corner like we don't need that, or self checking out of shots when you're playing Utah and Rudy Gobert's you know, dropped off of you into the paint, like that's threason you're out there is to pull this rim protector in space when you're at solo five. But there also just weren't a lot of plays that were run for him to get shots. And I think a really big hole that hopefully Bid Yorker and addresses is, he didn't get used as a trailer like I had. I don't know if you saw that article, but like, I think that he fits into the mold of being a guy like a Perzingis, like a Brook Lopez, where if you're gonna play him this faster scheme, you're spreading him out like a six foot eleven shooting guard. He's playing off the action rather than within it because he doesn't make great reads as a passer except for occasionally, you know, like hitting the opposite corner. So instead of having him run rim to rib, have him run arc to arc so that you can, you know, set up the threat of what that would present if he hits some of those shots. And he took like twenty, whereas Prozingis is like up over you know, three times that. And brook Lopez obviously benefits from playing with Janis, as does Prozingus with Luca, But I mean they're taking three and four times the volume of trailer threes that Miles has. So yeah, some of it's knowing what spots to be in, but also like he needs to let the ball fly, and you saw both sides of that coin and the one preseason game he played. Because they're they're playing. The Calves are playing a two three zone. He gets closed out on and he takes a dribble and takes a side step three and it's like beautiful. He makes it great, and then two or three possessions later, he's in the corner, Sabonis draws attention, draws two defenders, Sabonus throws it to him, and he, like you know, record, scratches out of the shot and puts the ball on the floor when nobody's there, and then ends up losing the ball out of bounds. And then he does it again later, or he dribbles the ball off somebody else's foot, Like it needs to be like you have the greenest green light when you're out there. You need to look and act like a shooting guard so that teams will respect you as one. Like because right now, like I said, against the he had decent individual production, but in part that was because they were fine with him scoring against them, and when he did score, like if he made a corner three, it didn't stop them from you altering their coverage of how they cover the corners. He's still he still was playing in the same way. So the heat was still playing in the same way. So I think it's both sides of the coins. Some of it needs to come from him, and I think that the system will help him, and certainly it makes the roster make more sense. Like right now, the pacers are just loaded with so many combo guards and centers that if he can provide space and be able to defend a little bit more out on the perimeter, then I think that what they have and the pieces that they have make a lot more sense together than what they did a year ago. The weight is finally over. Football is back. You might not be at a game this year, but you can still be in on the action at bet online. 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Like like why is he dribbling into it too? Or why is he not? Why is he passing up certain opportunities. I think some of it he just doesn't have like a great read of the floor and like feel is such a cliche thing, but it applies to him. Like like I'm saying, like there were times when Bam wasn't on the floor and Kelly Olynnox guarding him and they're playing they're playing in a drop and he has space to pop, but instead he rolls, like takes two steps toward the defense and then has to take a step away to get off a clean shot. Like that's just not reading the pick and roll coverage. I mean, he also averaged more turnovers than assists, and there was nobody in the first round of the playoffs that averaged fewer potential assists on his volume the average point five potential assists on like forty five or fifty passes per game. Like that's a lot of you know, offensive resets or passing out of shots. Like I think he just needs to, you know, maybe look at some of the film and hopefully borker and encourages him, like, hey, we have confidence in you as a shooter and even if you miss, keep shooting them. And maybe some of that wasn't there with Nate McMillan. I mean, I know that there was confusion and what his role was because he said that on CJ McCollum's podcast. It was the strangest comp I mean, he did. It was very odd, Like he said, it was the strangest conversation. That the Pacers told him that he needed to work on his post game leading into the off season, which I still have questions, Like I think he did need to work on his post game because he needs to be able to do something against the switch. So that's fine, but he's basically like, you know, then I come to training camp and they're wanting me to spread out to the corner and spread I'm like, why was this like lost in translation between both sides. They knew Sabonus was going to be a starter, so like, and why was that the only thing he could work on? But I mean he said that they were on two separate pages for a good half of the season last year, So maybe that plays into part of it. And maybe now that he knows, hopefully knows what his role is. But you know, there are also is some awkwardness of knowing that your team would have traded you if Boston would have wanted him, Like, let's be honest. I mean, that's what the reporting sounds like to me, Like if Boston would have been willing to take Miles Turner Doug McDermott in the pick that he would have been a Celtic right now. So I think he's going to be professional. I mean, he's accepted a lesser role last year, accepted the sacrifices as touches plummeted. But he also shot on the lowest potential percentage of his touches since he was a rookie, So there needs to be some confidence there. Let the Bowl go that seems like a fundamental discrepancy where they told him to work on his postgame and then want him like fanning out to the corners. Yeah, I don't I don't know how that messaging went, Like did they literally tell him, hey, this is the only thing that you can work on all summer, and like neither side ever thought like, hey, we're going to be playing with the bonus and it makes far more sense to space you. Like, I don't know, it was a very odd story. Yeah, yeah, knowing that he was going to start with the bonus, having him focus on a postgame, it's just bizarre. I ask you this question, if Aaron Holliday would end up like becoming a bigger part of the team than Teach McConnell this or under Bjorkin, and how they average He had made more average more minutes per game last year, but he did start like in half of his appearances because they were so banged up. So how do you see you do the pacers like view them as like two different positional players or how do you see that if everyone's healthy, that sort of secondary guard rotation shaking out for them? Yeah? I mean, in some ways, t J McConnell's like not the best fit for the Sisters system also, I mean like with the threes clearly, but in other ways he like fits right in because if you want to be you know, pressuring the ball ninety four feet and pushing the pace like, that's kind of what TJ McConnell's game is. But I would anticipate that if Jeremy Llam is healthy and looks reasonably like himself, that Aaron Holiday will usurp t J McConnell and the rotation, because I mean, he just gives you another person that, at least in theory, can go get his own shot, can space out around the three point line, and can also you know, ball hawk similarly to what TJ McConnell can do, and maybe even more so in terms of turning the ball and getting under the ball. So and he has the higher ceiling. McConnell has a bit of a steadier hand. And what's interesting is I actually think Aaron fits in better even though he's an undersized combo guard, like off the ball, attacking from the slot and being able to make shots off the catch than he does with his decision making in the pick and roll. So we'll kind of see how that turns out whenever Jeremy gets back, because obviously you're not going to be using Jeremy as a point guard. But you know, maybe they stagger a little bit, like they've they've shown playing brogged in with some bench players in the preseason. So I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that Brogden might play some with the bench where maybe you see Jeremy. I just think that there's gonna be a lot of different combinations because that's what indication that they've given that, like from night to night, this rotation could change, Who's in the rotation could change. But I would be very surprised. I mean, there was rumors that Boston asked about Aaron and TJ Warren and those deals, and the Pacers were really resistant to give up Aaron. So at that point, like if you didn't want to include him to get that deal done for Gordon Hayward, I would believe that you would be playing Aaron or over TJ this year, where Nate McMillan was more ready to lean on the veteran rather than letting Aaron play through mistakes. So that's how I would see that shaking out. Do you think that they'll be the I'm not you know if if this was pulled from Nick Nurse, where they'll be the like the level of fluidity where Toronto even changed its starting five, like to sort of dictate against certain matchups. Do you see that being something and he had to do or do you think in he hadda does or do you think that comes more so like after the top five, where that's really there where they're going to manipulate their rotation on a game to game basis. No, I definitely do. I mean he said I didn't. I wasn't on this zoom call to know exactly what the Q what was. But I do know that he said yesterday that he doesn't know what the starting lineup could be in that that could change from night to night, which I mean again brings up an interesting conversation because I don't know who he's thinking about flexing out of that, like maybe he's thinking some nights they might want Aaron Holiday for a three guard lineup or you know, whatever it is. But it leads me to believe it's with regard to the two bigs, I mean, just how much I mean, or rather how Little Toronto actually played Abaca and Gasol together. It leads me to believe that they think that they need to give those two some space. And it's like, even if they play the same amount of minutes, which I think would be hard because last year they played more minutes apart from each other on average than they did together. It just brings up the question of like, this isn't the Lakers like playing upsizing with you know, a role player in Dwight Howard or Javelle McGee, Like these are two centers making eighteen million dollars a piece. I mean, even if they're willing to do it, at what point is that kind of not great management of what money you have? Like it just makes me wonder how combustible this situation is, Like not in terms of chemistry, like I don't know what's going on there, but like just that if you feel like you need to flex out one of the bigs for certain matchups, shouldn't that kind of be telling you something about your roster? I mean, and clearly it was, because I think Gordon Hayward made a lot a sense for what they want to do, Like I had a whole thing ready written about him. If that deal went through, And like there's a possession against the Heat where he goes in and covers Jimmy Butler in a cut, fronts Jimmy Butler, closes out at an angle to Kelly Olenick, gets a long rebound, pushes the ball up the floor, gets triple team, threads a pass to Daniel Tyson. There's not a player on the roster at the forward position for the Pacers that could have done all of those things. Plus he fits into a switching scheme which the Pacers are switching on some pick and rolls, especially guard to guard ones that don't involve the Bigs, and some of what they're doing defensively I think is going to be really hard to do with two bigs on the floor. So I just wonder how long the plan is there. Like, the only strong argument I could make for it is that, like splitting them up might give the rest of the league a little bit different view of Miles if he's playing more minutes at the five and can kind of use some of his value. I mean, because you might be better, Like you might win a game, you know, against Boston if you're not starting both of them. But again then or finishing with them or however many minutes they're going to shake out. But again, like to me, if you can't play them well, if you can't play your best players a lot of minutes together and win against all different types of opponents, then it's probably time to make a change. But we'll see how it plays out. Yeah, I'm gonna probably ask you that in a second. I think the last rotation question I have is the second biggest move they probably made move in the air quotes they made this offseason was bringing back Justin Holliday. Do you still envision him playing some backup four or do you think maybe the push to have TJ Warren there? I think, as you already mentioned, actually might you know, have them gravitate him towards his more natural position where you'll see him more play more two and three, right, I mean, And again I wish I could answer that a little bit better by seeing how they would manage Warren's minutes. And clearly it depends like if they're going to stagger them a lot, then I guess meeting Miles and Sabonis, then there's going to be more minutes to go around at the four. And the preseason they played justin a lot at the four still with Doug and Aaron and TJ and Sabonis. That lineup was good for them last year, and they still went to some of those looks a little bit. I mean, my thing is like he held up well doing it, like obviously he had like his lowest usage but his highest effective field goal percentage, Like he had a career year playing minutes at the four. But then you can see spots where, like you know, they're playing Denver and Michael Porter Junior's coming off the bench and there's just he's just giving up too much size. I can't stay in front of him, or like you know, playing a Carmelo Anthony off the bench, or then you have to double and you're giving up rebounds, or you know, certain matchups like that. Kelly O. Lennett gave him some problems in the playoffs off the bench as well. And then my question is kind of like with Brogden, that if he's doing this for a second season in a row where he's defending up a position that much, does it eventually start to hurt his three point percentage? Like how do his legs and his shot hold up over the full course of a season. Which like I said, I mean it did last year, but this will be the second season of doing it, and he's over thirty now, so I think it would help him to get more minutes on the wing, and maybe that does happen, And like if they want to stretch some of TJ. Warren's minutes, getting more minutes at the four than you can play justin up, but they just have so little depth at that spot, like I said, like their entire roster is basically combo guards, centers and TJ. Warren and Justin Holiday Like that's basically summarizes what they have. So yeah, that's it would have been interesting to see what they would have looked like with Gordon Hayward there. I don't know that he's necessarily the wing you want to go up against some of the assignments that you're talking about, But at the same time, he's better than what they have, right, And I think that you know they want to do they haven't shown it yet, but he said the yorkand said, we want to play, we want to change defenses, and we want to change defenses frequently. So I think it does make more sense when you're playing you know, like a three two zone that to have somebody a little bit more mobile there in the corner so that teams just aren't automatically going after the owners with two bigs on the blocks and a three two where they're having to rush out to shooters, Like, I can see the logic behind it. But yeah, so this probably isn't surprise to you, but I have zero strong opinions on Goga. Have you seen anything from him where it makes you think that he's going to warrant more of an extensive look this season. Once again, it's kind of mercury because they've revealed that he was dealing with Nisornis for a lot of the year last year, and his minutes were so rare that it was like night and day like and obviously, like, yes, the talent level is less than but when you watched him play the few games he played in the G League versus when he plays for the Pacers, like the level of aggressiveness is so different. Like when he's with the Pacers, a lot of times it feels like the game is happening to him rather than he's like impacting it, And it's the exact opposite when he's played with the Maddance. But like even in his debut, he's been out with a sprayed ankle. He played against the Sixers, and it was it was fairly rough, Like we're being honest, he rarely makes contact on screens, which sometimes that's okay to open up and create space, but like a lot of times it isn't intentional. And then like they're setting, they have these staggers, like the play I described earlier, where it's a double drag into a stagger into a stagger like that takes a lot of coordination, Like you have to know how far apart to set those screens. You have to be able to move without setting a moving screen. And sometimes he's like literally a foot or two feet apart from the first screener, so then it's just operating as one screen, Like he doesn't get to where he needs to be. So I think that, like I still believe in the potential of him being a guy that could hit threes, and he has decent passing instincts, but I mean, he was having trouble catching the ball out of the pick and roll the other night, and his defense leaves quite a bit to be desired to this point, and I wonder how much of that which I mean maybe plays into a Bureucran system. Like a lot of the games that I watched of him in the EuroLeague, like they were playing a lot of zone and even switching one through five, which the Pacers didn't do basically, I mean very little of with regards to zone and really weren't switching their bigs. So, like, I think it was a big adjustment for him and drop coverage and he just like backs up to the stanchion without really slowing down either the roller or the ball handler a lot of the time. But I mean, he needs minutes if he's going to get better. Otherwise it's just a wasted pick, Like why did take another I understand the concept of taking the best player available, but if that guy's never going to have the opportunity to play, then then what are you really doing there? Like you know, and maybe they thought that they were going to move either turners a bonus, and maybe they thought Goga would be a little bit more game ready than he was. But I still like him, but he hasn't fully lived up to what I think was the expectation yet. But I don't know how limited was by the knee injury. So you use this word already from bustability. Do you see this roster despite its treadwater offseason, you know, looking at its personnel that plays, do they have that like is there just this combustibility of not even could they play poorly, but are some of these guys going to be on the move just because the Oladipo stuff still looms even though he denies the rumors. I think I was listening to a podcast a few weeks ago Jay Michael was on it where he said that Victor Oladipo is as loyal to the Pacers as his options or something along the lines of that. And then you still have the lingering question of ken Sabonis and Turner work together. Do you think that you know the way that Bjorkan wants to play simplifies that. Do you think it's not going to move the needle for it? And it comes back to the overarching question of does this roster have that combustibility where it looks like they're or where it feels like they might need to make one or two moves where they're moving some of their best players right the victors situation, It's like, that's a good point way of putting it. With regards to his loyalty and his options, because I mean, he's done and said I think most of the right things. Since training camp started, he seems like he's enthusiastic dick about what Nate b Yorker's doing. And I think that Victor fits into this type of system where they're being really aggressive in the gaps, like he's kind of the poster boy for doing that, like really good at roaming the entire floor, and that part of his game really hasn't missed that much of a beat. I mean, even early on last year before they hiatus, he was showing that he could still you know, really zoom around when he's tagging and then helping back to a shooter and still have that closing speed. But he makes comments roles say like, you know, he seems very much of the moment, like well this for now, or like I don't He was asked directly like what his long term commitment here is and he basically said, well, that's out of my control now, which you know, I don't understand how that's remotely the case, like unless the Pacers were just like, hey, we're not offering you an extension, like you have some control over it. I mean, he allegedly turned down the four year eighty offer from last year, so he did have some control. I mean, I get that he wants to play for his one big contract, but even then, like a lot of times, I mean I think and granted, like the Pacers clearly aren't the Warriors, but I mean, even looking back at Clay Thompson, like yes, he was leaving his options open and wanted to get paid, but he would also in those sentences be like, you know, if the financials work out, I really want to stay with the Warriors. Like Victor isn't making those types of comments, Like he's not saying like, you know, if the money all works out, you know, I really want to be with the Pacers. Like I haven't heard him give that convincing of a statement that that's something in the back of his mind. And you know, the Athletic reported that he wasn't going to entertain extension talks, and so then you have to wonder, like how committed should the Pacers really be to this cause because like right now, he to me doesn't look like he's prepared to be a top option. So if he's not gonna be willing to sit down at those and take you know, less money. I mean, I'm afraid of the twelve million dollar number without seeing more from him, so I would have guessed that they would be. And to me, I don't really think you can go past the deadline without heavily like le your offers are like having to take back money that you just don't want or like you're just not you're completely uninterested in what's there to offer. I would be a little bit surprised if he's still on the roster a year from now, unless things are, you know, just going swimmingly and he loves the b Orker and system so much that suddenly they sit down at the table and can come to some type of an agreement. Like I just think it's too risky to push that past the deadline and on the Turner Sabonus front, like I said, with the if you have to stagger them a lot, then I just don't think that it makes sense. And I think that it could look better, Like I already like some of the sets that they're running, Like I'm like, yeah, that'll work better than what they were doing last year or especially the year before that, when it was just a means of getting sabonus extra minutes. But I just questioned what the overall ceiling of it's ever going to be, Like, I just don't think that teams in a playoff situation with exaggerated game plans, I just don't think they're going to be able to space with both of them well enough to make it worthwhile for to keep doing it, Like yeah, where it would be the same result Like that, That's kind of where I land on it. But obviously I haven't seen a lot of what they plan to do. I know they still want to implement a lot on both ends in the floor, But that's my thinking is the overall answer is yes, I would think at the trade deadline they still have the potential for changes to be made. One of the wrinkles of this too, specifically with Alladipo, is just looking at how much the twenty twenty one free agency class has created over the past couple of weeks. So and look like even Drew Holiday is probably coming off that board. I think the expectation is Hill sign an extension in Milwaukee when when he's officially eligible to following the trade, and so like that's just they're gonna be teams I would hazard maybe not some of the smarter teams, but they're going to be teams with cap space that are probably going to give Aladipo close to the maps unless he just has like an absolutely terrible season, and that's going to have to factor into Indiana's calculus. Now, it's just the lack of other options for the teams to spend their money. And I'll point towards the Gordon Hayward deal in a cap poor market, he got twenty million over four years. People are going to talk themselves into all the depot being better. I would say, as long as he doesn't get injured again, I would still rather have all the depot, But the offers are going to be there for him, right, And I mean yeah, because you look at it and it's like, yeah, Kawai and Drew Holiday have player options, correct, Like that's the top, you know, obviously Kawai above Drew, but like those are the I mean, that's kind of like the big board at this point, like we'll have come to extensions. Yeah, I mean that's a very good point that there is the opportunity that the money could be there for him, and that if there are teams that man who knows how many teams he asked if he could come play with them last year. We don't even know who's all on the board at this point, who while he was interested in joining. And then you look at teams like Miami too, Like obviously Miami now knows definitively they're not getting honest in a year. And depending upon where James Harden goes, then do they start thinking, oh, you know, Victor might help bus, Like at least on the defensive end. I think you would help them. He can still shoot somewhat decently off the catch, and I think that Eric Spoelster is just really smart with what he does. So maybe you maybe Miami does circle back and they're a little bit more interested than they otherwise would have been when they thought that other options were going to be available to them. So what's your biggest concern about this this Pacers roster? I know you've mentioned kind of like the lack of true wings. Is that it is that it is? It's something specifically defensively that you're concerned about, Right, So the defense as a whole, This is gonna be a long talking point. I'm just fair warning you to to get all my thoughts out there, so like back up to a year ago, and the Pacers had a top six defense, Like despite a lot of the things that you could look at and be like, well, you know, you're playing some bonus at the four. Defensively, that's not great, like Malcolm Brogden not great against quicker guards at the point of attack. You know, there was weak points that you could think like, you know, maybe this defense isn't going to be great. But then they, against all odds, with Dan Burke at their side, crank out another top defense. And by the way, very importantly, in the Oladipot era, they finished in the top three of opponent turnover percentage twice and finished in the top three of points off turnovers twice while playing a more conservative system, Like they're still forcing turnovers with Dan Burke and Nate McMillan. It's just a product of their system and a product of the funneling into the middle and how they were getting hands on the ball and active deflections versus now like, forcing turnovers is very much the purpose of this system, And when I look at it, I questioned when I was seeing it, like, you know, what is the reason for doing this? Because it wasn't that the Sixers hired Dan Burke away, Like reportedly the Pacers told him like, we're going to be moving in a different direction, we want to play a different scheme, and he went out and looked and the Sixers wanted to hire him. So to me, they kind of had like a fairly reli able defensive floor with him there. And now it's like, why were they so intent on playing like this aggressive, disruptive system And like, I agree on the front that you need to show teams different looks, and very much so like under McMillan, they were more reactionary to making defensive adjustments and wanting to make teams, you know, react to what their bass system was, rather than being proactive, like they'd play a Joel Embiid who pretty much like owns Miles Turner's soul in the post and instead of like helping Miles Turner and knowing like this is a week point for him, like we're gonna come out proactive and either be doubling on the catch right away or be fronting, which they had better success with. It's like, no, we're gonna play Miles Turner from behind, have him pick up two quick fouls, have him come in and pick up another one, and then his rhythms completely gone for that type of a game. And they did similar things with Trey Young, where he would light them up for like forty points off of double drags and then it's like, okay, well, now we'll mix in some traps. So, like I understand that from the Yorkran's perspective of, like, hey, we want to play different types of defenses and be able to look at this in the playoffs, versus we're doing it for the very first time in the playoffs, Like that was a thing that they did against Boston two years ago, Like, oh, well we want to switch against Boston, and we haven't done this all year, but we're going to do it in game two or game one of a playoff series. Like I get fleshing through those types of things, but like I don't really see why if you're already getting points off turnovers as a product of your conservative system and you can funnel people towards Miles Turner, why you need to be picking people up full court off of makes because like we haven't seen this with TJ. Warren yet, Because like to this point, most of the time, like the full court pest role has been Aaron or TJ McConnell off of make because they're starting Aaron, but then even in minutes when Aaron went to the bench, they're doing this with Malcolm Brogden and it's like, you know, and even against Philly in the third game, they weren't doing it full quarter three quarter court, but they were picking Ben Simmons half court and pressuring him on the ball despite the fact that he's not going to pull up and shoot a three. And like, I get that you want to take off chunks of the shot clock. I mean, that's the main goal in doing it, if you want people to play later into the shot clock, but you're also exhausting people. You're giving up the risk of playing five on four. And like, right now, the other two big hitter things are that the opponents in the preseason shot fifty one percent against them, which was dead last in the league, when they weren't forcing turnovers because they're scrambling so much if that first line of defense gets beat. Plus they're just kind of two big in spots and two small in spots where they're they're using a really aggressive shift position. And then it's like if t J. McConnell's at the nail, he doesn't have the link to close back to that person. Or if the Bonus is at the four and helping and the Big is up top and he's at the nail, then the Big was just cutting right behind him, And like that's going to be the same whether it's Miles or Sabonus at the four. And then the other biggie is they're dead last in foul rate, which has been a hallmark of the name McMillan's system that they were able to force turnovers and be really cleanly about it. And now like because they're up in people's shorts the way that they are, Like there was minutes against Cleveland, like Aaron Holliday's putting the calves in the Bonus thirty feet from the basket because they're being so aggressive out there. So like, I just question if the gains of what you're getting and points off of turnovers are going to be enough to compensate for like exhausting your team, because if you look from the first quarter to the second quarter to the third quarter, like their pace is dropping like pretty tremendously across those three quarters, which are quarters that the starters played like top six down to like twenty two by the third quarter, where it just kind of looks like guys are gassed. And then also like they were even using Sabonus at times to pressure the ball clear out on the logo, like it's not like Andre Drummond's flowing into a dribble handoff, and you feel like you need to stay up to like contest against the pull up three, like they're literally that, Like Sabonus was that far out when Drummond was like waiting for a pass. Why are you taking your best rebounder, you know, thirty feet from the basket for a team that already struggled to rebound, especially when he wasn't on the floor. So it impacted all those things. And granted it's just preseason, but I feel like that calculus is going to be delicate for most of the year. And it really makes me question if the idea behind this wasn't that this was what scheme they intended to play, if they moved Miles, because to me, if you have Miles and you have this rim protector there, I don't think that you need to be pressuring the ball and be pushing everything to the sidelines to the extent that they are. But if you have Sabonus as your five, then it makes sense that like, hey, he has like zero wingspan. He's not the rim protector that Miles is, so we have to find other ways, you know, not that he's a net negative defender. He isn't like they are. Minutes when he's been out there in games that Miles hasn't played have been fairly decent. But I just think that that must have been some of the thought process behind it, because otherwise I don't know why you need to be this aggressive with it. And maybe some of it comes from conditioning and when they get you know, two of their better defenders, and Miles and TJ are healthy and they're out there more, and if you're mixing in zone, then maybe you can kind of punctuate some of these really aggressive bursts. Was sitting back in that, like, maybe some of that comes, but to me, it's gonna be a really delicate balance when you already had a top six defense with what you were doing last year, Like they didn't lose to the Miami Heat because of their defense, even though like switching would have helped them in spots in that certainly against Duncan Robinson, but that's not the reason they lost. They lost because they couldn't score enough points. So like, and yet the biggest makeover I would say, I mean, obviously the shot profile has changed a lot, but the bigger makeover is on the defensive end of the floor right now than it is on the offensive end. So it's a head scratcher, definitely something to watch with regards to the foul rate and the opponent field goal percentage and what it's doing to them rebounding wise, and how their pace gets impacted. It is the game's go because I mean, like I said, this is the scheme that he ran with Standa CRUs and it made sense when the G League when he was doing that in the GI League, because that team didn't have scores, they didn't have shooters, Like they had to generate offense some way. But like, this was offense that the Pacers were already getting and when Oladipo was healthy, especially in seventeen eighteen and eighteen nineteen, Like I wrote an entire freelance article about how important it was for them to get points off of turnovers and how they used that to compensate for their deficit from the three point line. So it's just a little bit odd to me. Well, the other very long soliloquy, but very substantive, so I appreciate it. The other thing about their defense, too, is that when you looked at the personnel they had and then also the availability of some of that personnel, they didn't have the look and feel of a top six defense. And so I think you could talk yourself into yeah, I think, you know, one of the good things is you limit your turnovers and you limit your foul rate, and that's going to help your defense. But it still felt like they overachieved. And so if you believe that, like they're kind of playing with fire there, their floor actually might be just lower than you would expect of a top six defense that didn't or over any major personnel, right, I mean, yeah, I think that some of like I said, their defense was a product of that, you're going to have a fair like a fairly reliable floor, even though, like I mean, mid season, they went on like a six game losing streak and the defense looked bad. They came back and they started doing again reactionary things where they you know, they're squaring upside pick and rolls, or they're mixing into a little bit of zone here and there. But yeah, I think that, like I said, it seemed like they needed to make some changes on that front. And I totally I'm fully on board with the orcern and that there's benefits to making opponents think about what scheme you're going to run. I just don't know that they necessarily have the personnel to be running a kind of Raptors Pacline like scheme without having people like pass galaciakam Ergian and Nobi to be that mobile. I mean the Raptors, I think they gave up like the second most three, which was a product of their scheme, but they also blocked the most threes of any team in the league. And blocks aren't everything, but that shows you their ability to close out. And I just like you can see in some of the five on four scrambling situations where they're, like I said, too much size or their lack of size could be an issue as the season goes on, but maybe there's maybe there's trades in place that then later on you're like, hey, I'm glad that they set this defense because you know, if Sabonus is going to be out there and you're gonna have wings. Then you can be really aggressive out on the perimeter. And it all makes more sense than what it does right now. But it remains to be seen. This is a loaded question, especially with how this team is going to play, But do you think they're going to have like a most common closing unit or can you identify like players that are going to be part of every iteration of the closing units that they're going to throw out there? Right? So, I mean mid season last year, I kind of wrote a piece that they didn't have a closing lineup, that they had people that came out and closed for them. They went through out of a hot streak where Malcolm brog didn't hit a couple of shots and the clutch, but the lineups weren't always the same. Justin played forty six percent of the team's clutch minutes last year. Some of that was him like, you know, we don't want Jeremy Lamb on the floor because his defense is kind of leaky, so we're gonna play Justin at the two and switch them on the perimeter. And then some of it was we don't want to play big, so Justin's coming out there for Miles or Sabonis at the four. I could see scenarios where they still want to look at that, depending upon who's out there on the floor, or even maybe you want to play like let's say your opponent's playing a lot of zone and you want to go with a three guard lineup and have Aaron out there so that you have three ball handlers and somebody can hit a shot off the catch as well. Like I could see that. But my guess is, like to me, you need to be closing with your best five players, and it needs to be Turner and Sabonis like they need to find a way for that to work. But if for matchup reasons they don't, my guess is it will be a Holiday brother that's making up the fifth spot, not all three Holiday Brothers though they were. My propaganda didn't My propaganda didn't work. Dan I tried hard. Mike Adult said, hey, look he's gonna be a free agent that technically hasn't a mound. Maybe it still happens. Is there like a quirky or lineup you're hoping that they try out, maybe like a not so obvious one that people wouldn't initially think about. I mean, they've run some quirky lineups by default, they're in uh Kelan Martin out there at the five for a little bit, if that's what you're hoping for. No, I mean, I want to be able to see Goga play. So I guess a really quirk more quirk He was how much more they're gonna play double big because to me, he's gonna have to be out there at times when when Turner Sabonis is out there so he can he get minutes when there's another five on the floor. I'm a big fan of the dog justin Sabonis Aaron minutes. I love how much swirling, delightful motion they get around that. That's one lineup. It's not new, But I don't know how much people that don't watch the Pacers were aware of how lyrical that that group would be you when they're out on the floor. I can't think of another one off the top of my head. I think I'm so much of the time thinking about who's in and out of lineups. With how many health problems the Pacers have had, that they've run so many combinations that I've seen most of them so that's fair. So final question for you, what do you think is a realistic win total slash Eastern Conference finish for this team? Weighing anything you want a way, whether you're factoring in a huge midseason change and they're over under thirty nine point five. If anyone's like me, they cannot think in seventy two game terms, that's the equivalent of forty five wins. So I'm just curious which way you would lean in that department. Malcolm Roden said the other day that he thinks they're going to be on pace to be a fifty win team. So players X is optimistic about his own team's chances. I am shocking, shocking, a shocking training camp quote. I think in are my question would be, like, my initial instinct is like, yeah, you could probably pound the over on that, because when you think about it, like Victor was out last year for how long? At least you know he's playing. If Jeremy Lamb's back, then you're not as depleted as you were. But then, on the other hand, my head wants me to take the under, just because I'm not sure how much they're like, not that they don't value winning, but I'm not sure how much emphasis they're really putting on the regular season, Like they've come across as a team that's playing the long game. That and for what we saw in the preseason, it feels to me like, and I don't don't get me wrong, Twitter, I don't think this is a bad team, but I feel like things might have to get a little bit bad before they can get good in terms of flashing out combinations, getting used to playing a new type of defense, implementing new offense, where that it is possible that they could get off to a slow start, Like I think it's reasonable to expect that where you don't really need to be hitting the panic button if that does occur. But also like they're talking about wanting to play different lineups from night tonight, being able to get development of minutes where maybe a role player who didn't play two or three nights ago does play in this game are an X game And then yeah, there's probably gonna be a lot of that around the league just because it's truncated, and obviously I hate analyzing the game in these terms, but like the coronavirus is going to be an issue. Yeah, And I also think that this system, like especially in terms of like the three point chucking and other stuff like there's just going to be more variance than there was a year ago, and that's not a bad thing. Like under Nate McMillan, I feel like there was a pretty good chance that the Pacers were going to come out night tonight, they were gonna play hard. You were going to have to question their work ethic, and that there was going to be a floor of what to expect from them on both ends, Like they're gonna take open shots, they're going to hit a decent amount of those. They're going to compete on the defensive end, They're going to rack up regular season wins, and then you're gonna have a question about what the ceiling of that is in in the playoffs. And now I feel like their defense is fairly high leverage and their offensive shot profile is fairly high variants. So I could see where they might not get as many regular season wins, but could still, you know, be a little bit better poised to be competitive in the playoffs and what they have been like in the overall Eastern Conference, like the seatings, I think it's probably fair like if you look at the teams that finished behind them, Like obviously Brooklyn, barring injuries, is going to be better than they were a year ago. I think that Philly's roster makes sense, and like Philly wasn't that far back from the Paciers a year ago, Like it was close to being a tie between the Pacers and the Heat and the Sixers for a good portion of the back end of the season. And then obviously, like Miami's coming fresh off of playoff berth, which you know, I mean a finals birth, So who knows, like, you know, how much they're going to be pushing things in the regular season with the shortened off season, But I think it's reasonable to think that those three teams could leap frog them potentially in the standings from where they were a year ago. And the Pacers are in you know, six or seventh, but I'll put them at six just because I think it's possible that some team that we think is going to stay where they were doesn't perform to expectations. Yeah. There, I went with the under for them. Didn't feel I mean, I don't feel confident about any of the picks, but I went with the under for them because I kind of feel like something's gonna happen with them midseason. But the best way I could do to compliment them would be that I think they end up being like a firm, firmly entrenched playoff team, or even if they finished seventh and you have to go through the play in motions, like, I don't think that that's gonna Like I don't think they're in danger of getting bounced from that. And so that's if you have sort of the you know, the high leverage stuff that they're dealing with, that's not the worst spot to be in. And there's still look, it's not even just a matter of like trying to fit within the style they're trying to play. It's you have actual, like the futures of personnel that you have to hash out. So I still think they're gonna be a firm playoff team. They're also like just based off how they played through all the injuries last year. I know it's a different coach, a different system, but like I don't want to throw all that out the window. Like this team was able to like navigate those issues, and so there's still that that element there. And if maybe they pick up a wing, like make a smaller move at the trade deadline or something. There's a chance that you know, you could talk me into the Pacers getting to top four again, right, Yeah, man, Yeah, I definitely do not think they're going to be missing the playoffs. This is a playoff team. It's just a matter of you know, I think that the East as a whole, while it's still the weaker conference, did get better than there's an anarchy like one through seven basically there. Yeah, I mean to me, I don't see them falling further than seventh, Like I don't see one of those other teams balancing the Pacers out of that spot. But I think it's reasonable for there to be some sliding based on what their priorities are. Is there anything I didn't ask you about that you wanted to discuss. I didn't even ask you about Jeremy Lamb or what you've envisioned his fit or anything. But is there anything else, anything that I didn't ask you about that you wanted to discuss before I get you out of here? No? I mean I got my long defensive soliloquy in there that I'm sure people were ready to, you know, turn us off about. Look, the listeners actually demanded you. There's we had a comment. He'll believe it. I don't think we have a review and it was not written by either of the host of this podcast, so I will say that or anyone related to us that said they want more of Caitlyn and then Tara who who comes on to talk about the Blazers. So you were mentioned by name in our reviews. So the audience wants more of Caitlyn Cooper, so we need to give them more of Caitlyn Cooper. Well, yeah, I mean, I'm glad that my burner network is even extended to your podcast reviews. Just following me around to the various podcasts they are willing to let me come on and blabber on them, then please, this is always a blast. I learned so much listening to you talk about hoops. I am envious of the way you're able to both think and write about the game. As I tell you every time you come on here. If you guys are not following Caitlyn on Twitter, what the hell are you even doing with your lives anymore? At C two Underscore, Cooper spelled exactly as it sounds. She's a great follow great writer. Again, the way that she's able to analyze the game beyond compare Caitlin, thank you so much for this. You gave me way more of your time than I was expecting to take from you. So I cannot thank you enough. And I think, as you know by now, I will be pestering you again in the future. Oh, I look forward to it, hopefully, like on good circumstances too. Hopefully. It's like the Pacers are exceeding expectations and we can talk about that. Yeah, maybe their defense is not, you know, cratering. Yeah, I mean that will be a fun article for me. Like if this all works out and they're like dominating with it, that will be fun later on in the season. Seth, thank you so much for agreeing to come on the hardwe Os podcast. How are you doing today? Thank you for having me. I am doing very well. I'm looking forward to the return of NBA basketball. Are you looking forward to the return of Knicks basketball? Specifically? This is that brief window of each year where yes, I am indeed looking forward to watching the next but they're usually I can expect them to ruin that in the near future, but for now, I am excited. You know what made me kind of hopeful is this offseason like felt good because they didn't do anything big, and I know it wasn't being viewed against the backdrop of a KD. Kyrie type miss, but they got solid, just like vets that I don't really think stand in the way of anyone on the team when you look at Noel, when you look at all the Rivers, when you look at I really like Alec Burks, and so I'm just wondering what your impressions were of like their off season and free agency or like, is there any concerns because apparently they were so heavily involved in Gordon Hayward and the fact that they might have been willing to pay him nine figures over four years, just not as you know, much into the nine figures as Charlotte apparently. Yeah, that's always an interesting internal calculus, is how happy I am with what happened versus how happy I am with what Plan A was, with what the next maybe wanted to happen. And we never get a clear answer on that, But yeah, I think I agree with you. This This offseason felt a little bit like an alternate universe of last offseason, where like the Knicks would have gone and made a Julius Randall type signing this offseason had it presented itself, but that just didn't shake out. But with that set, I think the bar is low for the Knicks, but they cleared it sort of like you were getting at. I think that the signings that they did make were, like you said, guys who aren't super redundant with the people already on the team. From what I can tell, they are not players who are at points in their careers or sort of as products of their personalities, people who are going to grumble about playing time or you know, clash with the youngsters in a cultural way. And they're they're decent, likable players. You know, I operate not as a sort of armchair GM at this point, but more as just I want to enjoy watching the Knicks, and I understand that enjoying watching the Knicks is probably not going to come from winning in the near future, but being able to watch players who are entertaining and interesting to watch is. Again, it's a low bar for the Necks, but you know, I think they've set themselves up decently well to clear that bar with the free agent signings they made. They signed decent role players who may or may not be guys they want to keep long term, mayor may or may not be guys they're able to trade for, you know, more future flexibility or whatever. And in the meantime are going to play perfectly adequate basketball and act hopefully as scaffolds for the younger, perhaps longer term investment type individuals on the team without hampering them and getting in their way. Yeah. I mean, look, they had to start somewhere too, and so like if there, it's a low bar, but they've they've yet to really meet it, and the fact that they might be doing that now even just like I know, they ended up moving out of it because Vernon Carey Junior was taken by Arland, whom they really wanted. But I don't even remember what the exact number of picks were, but they flipped two picks on draft night, like literally into higher picks, which is just something that the old Knicks never would have done, it seemed, And so it feels like this front office is at least more I feel like, I don't know if I would say they deserve a benefit of doubt, but I'm I'm personally, as a deadened, disenchanted Knicks fan, I'm a little bit more optimistic about what they're doing. I ask you, I have so many questions about like the young players, So this is like a throwing question about the free agents, But was there is there any one that you view as like the best edition that you're particularly looking forward to seeing, player you think just has the biggest impact In general? None of the guys they signed are guys I've ever been a huge fan. I've always liked Alec Burks actually, but he just seems like he has a pretty solid role and sort of identity at this point. I could be wrong about that. Newlands the while is going to be interesting as someone who is at an interesting juncture in their career where he you know, he hasn't really fulfilled the promise he had coming out of the draft. He's had some issues blending in with teams before and has almost quietly become i think underrated within the NBA circles. And he's interesting in that he walks a lot of the same paths and accomplishes a lot of the same tasks that Mitchell Robinson does, and so that could play out as a positional clash that could play out as an older you know, it would be weird. It's weird to call Neurons a while a veteran, But it could play out as an older player, you know, tutoring a younger I would say, more talented and promising player. It could play out in a way where like they're you know, they make an awesome platoon where you can run the same place for either of them, and you know they can plug the same holes on defense. I'm just very interested to see how that plays out, because, unlike say Mary Spellman, if he gets minutes, Neurland's in a while. I really I think it serves as a fact simile, you know, a second unit, or maybe he's first student, you know, another version of Mitchell Robinson in a way that allows the next to maintain some consistent game plan through maybe all forty eight minutes of the game, in a way that the next roster with j Gibson sharing minutes and Bobby Porter sharing minutes with Robinson or I guess trading minutes with him did not. So he's he's compelling. I think he's interesting. Yeah, I mean he had a case for like the most like the being the best reserve center last year in Okay. See just like when you look at what he was doing on the floor, and I think you kind of touched upon it too, like between the two of them as well, Like they both really can foul a lot. So they have twelve fouls, there's a chance that on a given night they might use nine or ten between them, and that allows like the like he said, a fact simile of a Mitchell Robinson to be on the court for most of the forty eight minutes as opposed to just like twenty or twenty five. So that was a signing that I felt one on the radar, And you point out Alec Burks and he was probably my favorite one. Just after they dealt Marcus Morris last year, it felt like they didn't have anyone that could consistently hit a pull up three, and Alec Burk shot like forty percent un pulled threes last year, and that's something he's kind of always done, maybe not at that efficiency. So he's someone I view as like, even though he's always deviated and prefers to operate on ball, he does feel more plug in play where he's not going to disrupt, you know, if he's sharing the court with an R. RJ. Barrett, or if he's you know, sharing the court with Kevin Knox or a you know, an Obi topping that he's just not going to take too many touches away from them, and he's gonna help space the floor, which I think this team needs really badly. Yeah. I you know, I'm pulling from Zoom interviews and stuff and just having latched preseason, But my sense of the guys who joined the team this summer is that I guess it was in the summer, I mean this offseason. My sense of them is that they get what the deal is in a way that maybe last season's batch of free agents didn't. Where Like, they just understand what is expected of the team this year, why they're here, you know what this might mean for their future. And I don't think anyone has drawn false conclusions about their future with the Knicks. You know, their their potential to get minutes, to be a star, things I think are better set for frankly, for Tom Thibodeau to have an easier time constructing rotation and sort of honoring the build the build of his roster without offending people in a way that you know, he was dealt a better hand than David Fitzdale was dealt at the beginning of last season, for sure, How do you feel about the Tips hire just because he's not the coach that you typically would install to develop youngsters, and so are you more open minded about what he could do based on how the roster's built, or do you expect like we're going to see, you know, like lineups where there's like maybe you know, two actual players who factor into the long term future only on the board at once. You know, I give Tom Thibodeau the benefit of a doubt, benefit of the doubt, especially after so much time off about some of the more negative aspects of his reputation, like you know, picking some short point guard and playing them for some short scoring point guard and playing them for fifty two minutes a night, and you know, like you were getting at playing a six guy all thirty year old rotation that kind of just isn't an option with the Knicks, and the Knicks have one of those rare setups, and I think this was mostly the case last season where if you want to win a game, you actually need to play the young guys. They are some of the better players on the team. So I would say very generally, you can already tell just from bits and pieces of preseason that the team is just it looks more organized that for ten minute stretches than it did at any point in preseason or regular season or even at the very end of the year last season. You can tell what they're trying to accomplish, and it's it is like so many other aspects of watching the Knicks, there's a low bar for that, but I can tell you can see Tom Thibodeau even in the preseason approach to basketball, and you can tell that they are not only going to defend hard, but that they have been for whatever short you know, preparation time they've had, they have been steeped in some principles that are that are going to get people defending a little more on a string and they're going to keep people moving a little bit more on offense. And so I'm excited to see I like Thibodeau as a coach. I'm excited to see how much the Knicks can, you know, without certainly winning many games, can establish an identity. I think the teams that have gone from bad to good over the last few seasons, you know, teams like the Nets, teams like the Sixers have in common that even when they were bad, even when they were losing games and returning to the lottery, you can tell what the culture and the style of basketball was. And the next of the last few seasons have just been a total buffet of basketball where each guy's doing his own thing, the game planned and the rotation and the style of lineups changes constantly, and it feels like a coach lacks confidence and is flailing to try to find something that works. And I, you know, again, going off very little evidence, are have gotten some sense that Thibodeau has because it's year one, because he's a confident and established coach, and because he's he's got a style, and I think, frankly, because he's got the right kind of guys. And it's just a better mix of young players who aren't you know, totally in their own heads, young players who maybe you know, I feel like they have something to prove at this point and have had their egos check the last you know, if they're not rookies the last couple of seasons. And then like I said, veterans who I think are don't have any misconceptions about what their role ought to be. I think he probably has a pretty receptive audience to be some degree of the Tom Thibodeau we all know and fear, but hopefully has has grown up a little bit, both in terms of dealing with young players, dealing with players who might not always want to be drilled on the same play a thousands of times or play ninety seven minutes a night. You know it's there they're going to have to kind of meet in the middle. And preseason was extremely ragged at times, as one would expect, but there were also little, little flex little tastes of what losing but still productive progressive basketball might look like. And that's you know, I'll take fun bad is all I'm asking for personally fun bad and bad, you know, intentional bad, not not intentionally bad, but bad bad in spite of a well orchestrated plan. The thing I'm insured to see with him actually more than how he like would juggle the youth, just I think as you laid it out, it's just the roster is not really built for him even if he wanted to deviate. I don't know that he could is if he's updated, like his defensive principles where they were really just exposed in Minnesota, where they were giving up too many quarter threes and looks at the rim. And so that's just something I wanna be watching closely in the regular season. And I don't know that I expect the Knicks to be good defensively when you look at their personnel, but I at least want to see like that he's you know, having been away for a little bit, seeing what happened in Minnesota, that maybe he's updated his his philosophy, his philosophy is compared to you know, how his team's in Chicago. You know, when he was on the staffs of the Knicks and the Celtics, like hopefully those have like now evolved. Yeah, I mean it, part there's he definitely needs to evolve, and part of it is sort of a latter adjustment where you know, the next roster is not a good one. It's not a concrete one. But the Knicks have some interesting defensive you know, law talent. They have this otherworldly but sort of sort of flighty and temperamental shot blocker who if used right, really could be among the best, you know, in his particular role. And they their their backcourt is full of guys who really could and should be good defenders. Some of whom like Frank Malikina already basically are good defenders. And so part of it is I hadn't really thought about this before. But if you look back at the roster he was trying to deal with in Minnesota that was built around Karl Anthony Towns and built around Jimmy Butler and then a bunch of young guys Andrew Wiggins and people like that, you know, part of the problem was that he hadn't evolved. But part of the problem is that he just wasn't wasn't playing the hand he was dealt. He was trying to force like like many established coaches, dude, he was trying to force uh, you know, a square roster into a circular defense. And he has something with the Knicks, Like the Knicks have given him a pretty interesting defensive sort of chessboard to work with. And it's not going to translate directly into old Chicago Bulls style, you know I defense, but he should be able to get at least stretches of solid defense out of the roster he has, and it's going to take a different kind of plan, but not you know, not throwing up his hands. So I again, I'm just fascinated to see how adaptive he is and sort of how much he follows his typical blueprint. Obviously, again it's the preseason, which you know it's always shut. But do you have what are your early impressions of Obi Toppin. And I'm not sure how deep you get into the draft. I say, I get deep into the draft, like and I crash like as ah course for me leading into it because I don't really watch college. I really wanted them to take Tyrese Halibert, and I'm not gonna lie. I'm trying to approach Obi Toppin with an open mind, and like, looking at some of his clips, seems like he could be really dynamic and that passed. He threw to to Kevin Knox in the corner, like I'll commit that to memory forever. But I'm just curious as to what you what you thought of him, and like was he were you happy with the decision or were you just kind of like, again, I don't know how how into the draft you were at that point. I got pretty into the draft. If you get shin deep, I've got like draft running up my nose and into my line. I was not the next just the way the lottery and the draft shook out, the Knicks weren't going to make a decision that totally drove me up the wall. That wasn't really that kind of person available that I absolutely was certain was going to be bad. Obie Toppan would not have been my pick. I would have taken almost any of the guards available, particularly the guys who project to be ball handed, passing type point guards, over Obie Topping, in part because I liked guys like you said, Haliburton, Kyra Lewis. I just think they project better as players, and I think they fit better. And I think that given the roster, and just given the NBA, and given a little bit of bias from having had to sit through the next for the last few years, I am I think very much like take the point guard if there's a point guard. Yeah, I mean, that's that's fair. Though I'm almost I'm almost glad Killian Hayes didn't drop, because if they took top and over Hayes, then I would have really felt some dangerous feelings. That said, you know, I immediately, with maybe one or two exceptions over the years, I immediately come around to whoever the next draft and from what I've seen of Topping so far, he this is gonna sound trite, but like he's a basketball player. He just clearly has the has developed I'm not going to at instincts because he is described as sort of a light rumor and as older than some other guys, but he's got basketball moves. He he is decisive. He is not law in the sense that like you can start of just air drop him or let's ye air drop him into any place on the floor with the ball and he's like, Okay, I have something in my bag to deal with this particular situation. He's creative, he has some polished moves. Like you said, his passing, he is extremely almost like dealiteriously eager to pass the ball and has some has some vision, has some you know, some of just like the upper body strength to produce some pretty interesting passes and not just rudimentary. Next guy over stuff plays with his head up and really wants to share, and that I really didn't expect that of him at all. I think if you watch his highlights or you know, think too hard about a Marius Stoddamier comparisons, then you sort of assume that the guy either can't or won't pass, but the passing is really has been interesting so far in preseason. I think is something that completely changes the way even this season that you can you know, design an offense that includes him. He is his shot looks quite bad so far, Like his release isn't messed up, but like he is slamming the ball off the backboard. He's just not comfortable with pulling up or catching and firing an NBA three pointer right now. But I think there's plenty of room for that to change. And for someone who's what twenty two years old he is, he's pretty weak. He's easily budged off of his position. You know, if he's being posted up and someone gets the ball with decent position, it's basically over. So you know, he hasn't had an NBA conditioning program, but he's got as people describe going into the draft, he has even sort of the like lower to upper body ratio he's he was born with and just the amount of muscle hasn't on his body, and you know, some of it that is probably just skill and footwork too. He's going to need to become a much more sort of inert player on the block of him he's going to compete down there. But he's interesting, he's creative, he's clearly smart. He is you know, in the off the court exposure, one gets to him likable, and I think it seems pretty down the earth, And so I'm you know, I'm gonna enjoy watching him develop, even if he wouldn't have been the guy had picked. Is Emmanual quickly going to be the greatest point guard? And so I actually just want to know you're impressed about him. But I will say I try to resist when it comes to the Knicks, where like prospects get hyped, because I also feel like there's this and it exists in LA. There's like the market bump where Alex Caruso is the best thing ever. And so like when Kevin Knox went off in Summer League, I like trolled because I thought it was ridiculous, but I fit like I might be like two into Emmanual quickly, Like I think I'm being like the kool aid or the like I am so watching him. I want to I want to say, it's like, you know, it's preseason, you're also going up against guys like when's the last time they've played? People aren't really trying to play defense. But I'm just watching him and I'm like, no, you know what, future Hall of Famer. I just I've just can you talk me down? Or have you been as impressed as I've been. I've just I did not expect and maybe we should expect more from guys from Kentucky who just weren't really allowed to put the ball on the floor. I guess when they were there. I've just been He's blown me away, and I think I'm buying into him more so than I have, like any Knicks prospect in recent memory. I think, as I described, there's this point guard thing. When you're watching the next with it's like, oh my god, could this guy actually organize an offense? I imagine it's like being a fan of a football team and you know, having lacked a quarterback for twenty years, like anyone who seems like they might fill that role is immediately accepted as the prophet. Yeah. I watch, especially this preseason, like you were saying, a lot like I watched sum My League, where I am not really interested in the final score or the statistical line. You're looking for moments and looking for problem solving. You know, there are certainly situations that occur in a preseason game or a summer league game where you can look at it and be like, no, this is the kind of puzzle that this player is going to have to solve in actual basketball games against actual basketball players, not the various you know, six three white dudes on the Cavs who are going to be playing in Turkey by next season. Like, I think there was stuff to pull from that. So I'm not sure that Emmanuel Quickly is the point guard of the future or whatever. I get that said, I can completely understand why people are excited. I'm excited. I can understand why various newspapers with really not much else to cover right now are going in on the Quickly phenomenon after two games of basketball, not even after six quarters of basketball against the Calves. I you know, it's funny, and I think you're right, but there's a market bump there. But it is what it is. But by the measure of just looking for moments, looking for specific circumstances that resemble the NBA basketball, you can see, Okay, yeah, like he is not he does not have a very tight handle. He is not out there throwing wizardly passes that you didn't see shaping up. But he looks confident. You know, he's out there pointing fingers, barking orders, clearly having a sense of the weight on the strong side and weeks side of the floor and really where the play is and where the play isn't in a way that suggests some future as a point guard. And he's making basic he made in those six quarters of basketball. He made the basic passes. He made some interesting passes. He made some passes that led to other passes. You know, like I said, I don't think he has the oh my god, amazing past vision that some other just obvious natural born point guards have. But he can sniff out of mismatch. He can see over the defense. He can understand that, like the play isn't you know, isn't this pass, But it's going to be two passes from now. And he seems like he has the right balance of trust and sort of authority on the floor. But more than anything else, he knows he's got a few skills to get the ball in the basket, which is a really undervalued thing in nixed prospects over the last couple of seasons. Let's have some dudes where it's like, yeah, you know, if he puts X and Y together this, but just guys who really still to this point don't have a shot that they can make at a you know, at a one point two points per shot, to put it crudely, at that sort of clip where like, yeah, he's gonna hit sixty percent of the shot of the rammer, he's gonna hit forty percent of this particular three pointer whatever it might be. You can kind of see like, oh, this kid might be good enough shooting threes. I'm not sure yet whether that's off the catch or in the corner or pull ups. He might be good enough at shooting threes that like you want him shooting that shot. He might be good enough with that runner in the lane, which is a really interesting shot and something that you know, people smarter and more attentive than they have known he's had since going back to Kentucky. That's a shot that really opens things up for him if he's going to hit it reliably, and there's no reason to think that he won't. He flashed and spoke about a little bit of a gift for I think because of that in between sort of surprising floater game, he's got a little bit of a gift for drawing foul and he's a basically perfect free throw shooter. So like there is a roadmap for him being a useful offensive player, but like right now, like, no, he's not good enough defender. He's not. I think as soon as he gets scouted, people are going to figure out how to make him swallow his dribble. People are going to figure out how to overwhelm him when he's handling the ball, and he doesn't come in with some of the sort of preternatural point guard instincts that even someone like Jeremy Lynn started to show at the outset. But like, yeah, given given the alternatives, given the shape and scope and sort of plan for this season, it's very very exciting to see someone show just some of those rudiments, some of the necessary tools to maybe be a useful point guard, and if nothing else, that's going to make this season more interesting in a way that I definitely did not expect. I should say, like, Emmanuel Quickly is another guy who you know, I had not paid as much attention to before the draft, but I was not happy with that pick, and I'm obviously feeling a lot better about it now than I was a few weeks ago, So you know, credit rights due if he does turn out to be as exciting and interesting a player as he's looked so far. I think it's reasonable to guess at this point that like that's an NBA player, and to get something like that at that point in the draft, you know, has to be considered to win. I guess I'll accept NBA player as opposed to future Hall of Famer. It's a big deal. It's a big deal with a pick in the twenties to get an NBA player. That's not something they've really like they the next draft track record is like kind of better, Like when they've drafted lower. It feels like where they've missed on like kind of those mid end lottery selections, they haven't turned out so well, and they've like, you know, they found Tim Hardaway Jr. I'm sort of kind of late, so like they've had like a little bit better of a draft track record, but they never keep these guys long enough to like figure out whether it's actually worth while, Right, what are you hoping to see from Barrett this year? The I was watching like clips of him from the preseason he's taking like just smarter shots where he shot like almost sixty seven percent on twos, and I would say like the overwhelming majority came inside the paint, like they were still like a lot of them were was in between shots, but like they weren't these like longer mid ranges. It seems like he just does it. He looks more comfortable working in the half court. Would have been your impressions of him this season and what are you kind of hoping that he's able to do this year in his sophomore campaign. Yeah, I it's sort of as I was just describing. He really needs to find his shots, his places where you know, a defense doesn't feel comfortable letting him shoot, letting him shoot where it is clearly a failure by the defense if he gets a good look from X place. And I think given the way just his jump shot form still looks, I think that is going to be getting looks at the rim and getting to the line, and you know, he just like I said, it's it's the one point two, it's the sixty percent thing. He just needed to be able to hit certain percentages from certain places. And I think that in preseason he demonstrated a little bit more like you set confidence, a little bit more comfort. He was not getting harried into as many shots that he just clearly didn't want to take or hadn't you know, hadn't planned for, or shots that a defense wants him to take. I'm just I'm still not totally convinced that there are going to be a lot of those kinds of zones and types of shots for him on the floor. But you know, either he is going to get better at hitting those open threes or better get better touch on pull up jumpers or floaters, or he's going to really lean into I think the one pronounced skill he has on offense is that he has you know, he has some vertical you know, lower body strength and explosiveness to just finish through or over someone. Yeah, he's bigger than you think. He's super strong, and I hope he continues to use that. But he also has some interesting sort of lateral and circuitous footwork. In that most recent preseason getting at this gorgeous basically scoop shot where he spun and just sort of reached behind the back of the defender to lay it in and you know where really only his hand was facing the rim and that sort of creativity, combined with just touch off of the fingertips, could improve his percentages where it's like, Okay, if you see RJ. Barrett entering traffic or barreling towards the rim in transition, you feel confident that, like, Okay, this this should be productive. There's a decent chance that he will either draw out or finish this play. And like you could see the elements of it last season, but it just didn't bear out in actual production and actual percentages. And then I think defensively, it's becoming the sort of the sort of guard that Tom Thibodeau loves. I think I think my favorite thing I saw from him in preseason was just relentlessness on defense and a little bit a little bit less you know, reactivity, a little bit more confidence and trust in his strength and in his footwork and his ability to make decisions and you know, assert himself on defense and not merely react. And I think that he there were moments where he was playing against you know, less experienced, less qualified players, which is cool for someone in his age, and he overpowered them both with just confidence and you know, strength and footwork, and I think, you know, that's the type of thing that will endear him to Thibodeau, and it's the type of thing that could make the next a little bit more effective than people expect and could make them the time kind of team that like, yeah, doesn't win any games, but actually has pretty good defensive numbers in certain lineups, and I think, you know, has the potential to make him worth the pick that they used on him is for him to sort of flex both intelligence and teamwork, but also just like raw overpowering, you know, bullying behavior on defense, I think could really set him apart of the player. And he has the necessary you know, rudiments there, but we didn't really see him put him put that to work last season, perhaps because he was not asked to focus on that and was you know, really asked to focus on everything and be everything to everyone, and so defense wasn't necessarily an emphasis. Yeah, his jumper feels like this, it's the obvious one, but it also feels like the swing skill, because if he doesn't have that, like at any level consistently, like the pull up in between game, or if he can't hit wide open threes like, then you need to just surround him with a ton of shooting, and I would like to see more minutes of him playing without Julius Randall. I think it would be really good for him, and so I'm curious if they're able to do that during the regular season even think to do that part of that too. You know, he's gonna end up playing with Julius Randall a decent amount. He and Julius Randall are as close as two players with totally different positions can be. They have so much in common, and you know the ground that they want to cover and the places they want to shoot, and even the types of shots they want to take, and you know how they get to them. But that's that's kind of a worst case version of Julius Randall, who you don't want to be acting Key's r. J. Barrett, and you don't really want j. Barrett to be acting like he's Julius Randall. And so I think they're going to end up playing together. I think I agree that I'd love to see both of them surrounded by guys who spread the floor. But I think for Barrett it's going to be, you know, learning how to draw contact or finish around the end, and for Randall, it's going to be stuff that he did show signs of this preseason, where like his head is up and his first instinct is to to pass and not to just plow in the traffic and spin and you know, try and create a shot. I think that he he's far enough into his career where like he just doesn't have the touch to you know, cash a lot of the checks that his body is writing. But in preseason we saw him looking to act as a conveyor for the ball instead of a finisher a lot more often, and to you know, push off of a rebound and make the first pass and get the ball into a corner and move the ball from the strong side of the week side of the floor and just let offense flow through him instead of to him in a way that could make it much more feasible for a Randall Barrett line up to not just look like a sort of clogged mess. So yeah, I mean I think generally speaking, yeah, like those two in their makeups just don't really work together well. And if the Knicks are still looking to trade Julius Randall, I'm still into that idea. But I think Barrett's growing up and gaining confidence and hopefully learning what his spots are, but I think Randall showed at least some signs, especially later in that preseason and again especially against really really terrible competition, that like he might have a sense of what his role ought to be, you know, sort of like those veterans I was describing about that they added this offseason. I think he might have a better ns And I don't know how much of this is Timota was doing, but he might have a better sense of some habits he might need to emphasize and de emphasized to let the next place some interesting competent basketball lays on the floor. Mitchell Robinson is a joy to watch, Like he's a joy to watch conceptually, but when you do watch him on defense, he like he covers an insane amount of ground, but it's like neholistic ground, where like I'm not even sure that he believes that he's making the right decision, and which feels like it can account for so many of his fouls. But you just look at out tantalizing he is because he can be in so many different when he's really like engaged, he give be in so many different spots without actually neglecting the spot that he's supposed to be in. Do you see like more of a disciplined defender there, because I do think the fouls are low hanging fruit and there I feel like there are easy ones that he could cut out, like the frustration fouls. Like at the same time, like you kind of need to focus on it because when fix are made and you're pointing out that Mitchell Robinson has zero fouls, like that's part of your graphics, you know. I think I think Mitchell Robinson to be a really great, excellent, you know, cornerstone kind of player, which I think is his potential, needs to make fewer plays, if that makes sense. He part of the reason he is such a highlight machine. I went, but there's a really good YouTube video that's just like all of his blocks from last season, and it is truly dumbfounding some of the stuff he does. But as anyone who watched all of the next basketball and not just the highlights knows, the price for those unbelievable blocks where he just snatches the ball out of the air or recovers to come up on someone from behind, the price of those is the fouls. And I really, even over the course of preseason, I saw some pretty interesting signs that he was willing to sacrifice the block for just deterring a shot, for just you know, asserting himself with his presence. There was some maybe indication that, you know, stuff that we know the next the next coaching staff is focusing on, at least based on what they say and interviews and stuff might be paying off. He's such an interesting guy because you can tell he's I don't know, I don't want to say something negative, but he is just not not coming in with that like super you know, I'm here to learn, I'm here to get better. He's not necessarily someone who says the right things or projects the kind of body language that some of the other young guys on the next do. He I think, came to basketball a little bit later, took such an interesting route and has such an interesting personality that his you know, his response to the Thibodeau coaching regiment is going to be the most interesting one. But there have already been indications that the stuff that you and I probably shattered our TVs, which I feel like me is stop jumping. You never need to jump. You are and you are a skyscraper of a human being with unbelivable unbelievable reflexes. You're ambidextrous, you have long arms, great timing. Never jump, just stand there and get your hands up. Would completely change his game and it would reduce the number of blocks you record, but it would also reduce the number of points that the opponent records and limit his fouls. Like even from game one of the preseason, the game four, I saw some more signs that like, oh my god, he's not going for the block, he's just standing there. And granted that was against like I said, some you know, random sixth stringer and not not Andre Drummond right or Blake Griffin or whatever, and so that that should be acknowledged, but like, he wasn't just hunting for blocks. He wasn't making decisions on the fly. He was trusting his teammates and sort of trusting that his presence was enough for a shot that does get to the rim to still miss, and that the goal is to prevent points. The goal is not to make a play, and I think that goes for offense too. Yeah, I just they were by the end of the preseason, there were fewer of those moments which I know, you know, where he does something he gets called for a foul and you're like, I mean, yeah, if you if you just leap in the air at a pump shake, that's gonna end up being a foul. But then he's doing the thing where he's shaking his head furiously and you're like, no, man, like I need you, I need you as a fan, I need you to understand that, like, that's your fault. You messed up. That was not the rest's fault. Yeah, they need to call it time out and like have him look at the iPad immediately, like that moment. They can't let it slip. But you know what I'm talking about, that headshake he does where he's no, no, no, no no, it's like, yeah, yeah, man, sorry, that's that's on you. And even by the end of the preseason there were fewer of those. It wasn't just the foul that was that he just wasn't getting baited and he wasn't you know, he wasn't having those moments where it's like, you know, you need to take the blame for this one and learn from it. You need to not blame this some of the reps. But you know, it's it's such a tough tough thing to judge. But yeah, like I was saying, he has so much potential, but it's going to come with unlocking that potential is going to come with a level of discipline and restraints and sort of a willingness to blend in that I think wasn't indicated in his first couple of seasons, and also kind of, you know, makes him a less exciting, less highlight prone player. And I think it was like so organically though, like he can stumble into blocking jump shots. He's just so sure for sure, I don't worry about him making highlights, but I think he can smell a highlight. He can sell a truly thunderous block like so many players when it's there, And like you're saying, he I think is much more gifted than a lot of the guys who fit that bill. I think gurlans Noel as an example of that kind of player, But from what I can see, nerlans Nowell as an example of a player who has moderated those tendencies and who has learned to be a really great team defenders, someone who can stay on the floor, and someone who you know you might not notice being really really excellent and really helping the team win and helping, you know, lower the opponent's ability to score. And I'm just so fascinated given his personality, given what we see from him just in body language, and what we hear about his practice, habits, and his relationships and his agents stuff and his history, and then what we know of Tom Thibodeau, just how that blends. I think, you know, he is one of the most important Mitchell Robinson is one of the most important projects for this news in both coaching and managing, and you know, not messing that up, not having to give up and trade him for something, you know, not letting him stagnate as a player, would be a really really good sign and a really good indication that you know, they are not like some prior groups inclined to just throw up their hands and accept someone for who they are, that they can work with talent, work with an interesting personality and shape that into someone who really can help the team for a really long time. That would be such a good you know, that would speak really well for all the parties involved. Yeah, I mean, I think you can make the case, even with Barrett and Topping and future Hall of Famer quickly, that he is like the single most important prospect on this team. Still like, maybe he's not. There's more variants there because you have Barrett and Topping, But I think you could probably still make that case that he maybe has like the highest ceiling of any of the young players that they have. I would make that case. I think he really is. Are you a Frankie Lakina believer? And on a side note, if you ever need like Frankie Laikina propaganda, I have like basically an encyclopedia of it. I don't. I don't really know what it means to be a believer at this point for a guy. You know, how much do we still care about his draft position and who was taken after him and the things that were said of and about him earlier? You know, I am a believer in the sense that, like you know, you should want frank Laikina in your basketball thank he he has concrete skills and not unlike everyone we've talked about so far, not unlike Barrett, not unlike Mitchell Robinson. A good coach should be able to a depend on and lean into the skills that he already has and be helped the kid become more confident in the skills that he doesn't quite have. You know, it's it's with any young player who isn't Lebron James or you know, Zion, where it's just like, Okay, it's obvious what this guy's roll ought to be, and he should just be allowed to go out there and do whatever he wants and make it up as he goes along. These guys need structure, and they need a really healthy balance of here is what you're good at. We are going to structure our basketball plan in a way that gives you the opportunities to do this stuff you're already good at. In the meantime, I want you to work on X and Y, and you're going to have a a you know, a smaller helping of opportunities to get reps doing these things. Nil Keena is still that player. I think he is not a known quantity yet. I don't think I'm ready to just accept that this is Frankielikeena. But if it is, if it's a guy who is sort of a secondary ball handler who can run a lovely pick and roll and make the right pass, but like who isn't going to be out there crossing people up, throwing gimes across the court, you know, making plays out of thinner. I think frankly like he and Emmanuel Quickly have a lot of notes to compare and are sort of interesting in that I could see them working together really well. But they actually have a lot of similar, very team friendly skills. But yeah, just a good coach should be able to get more out of Frank Nilikina, but also get useful minutes right now out of Frank Nilikina. And I hope he's not an afterthought. I hope that the Frank Nilikina I know can help a basketball team win games, you know, gets to do so on the next Sunday, because that's that's you know, maybe not the point guard of the future we were hoping for, maybe not even a starter in the NBA, but like that's the kind of basketball player you want. And it's like part of it is recognizing that because I feel like they've used him so inconsistently and in so many different ways, like it's been hard for him to establish structure. Yeah, but I will say, like I know on af splits can be wonky when you're this young. Your team is not noticeably better defensively with you on the court. In all three of your seasons on accident that just doesn't happen. Yeah, And and so like my advice that no one is asking for, it would be worry less about comparing yourself to another player, defining a position or whatever. Worry more about what skills does he have to apply, what lineups makes sense to get the most out of those skills, and then what things can he realistically improve And just a much, a much, you know, to sound like a sort of touchy feeling like teacher, like holistically, what do you want this guy to accomplish on the floor. That shouldn't be that difficult a question to answer, like and like Barrett, it's like, you need to have shots that defenses don't want you to shoot. You need to have shots that are debt you know, are a good, are a good bet, are a good acceptable winning way for a specific set of specific play to end. But I don't think nil Kin is that far away from having that. And then on top of that, like also you should probably find a way to draw more fouls. Also, you need to work when you're finishing around the rim, you know you need to be you need to dial those percentages up a little bit from outside and that that's both a matter of choosing the right shots and simply getting better at executing, which is like the plan for so many guys in the next it's like you need to improve, you also need to define yourself, you know. Yeah, And I look, I think you're right, Like something needs to give on offense, just because he doesn't have a specialty right now, aside from like sometimes whatever he's doing looks good and then it ends terribly. And he did shoot thirty seven percent on like catch and shoot trays to end last year. It was after February first, there was only twenty four shot sample size and those are super wide open. But that's if you can do that, that's big into itself. And I think he's two of three in the preseason on those same looks. So I'm not going to infer anything from a sub thirty shot sample size, but like, if he can do that, like that just adds value on offense. Although I will say hopefully because it's Tibbs and obviously hopefully nil Keena's achilles injury really was just like a preventative rest thing, but hopefully Tibbs doesn't describe as much value. Well, we're just not going to play him because he's not really giving us anything on offense. I think the defense is just so important that like just just have him on the court, like give him a chance, because he's coming up on restricted free agency. And my guest right now, as much as it tears my soul to pieces, is that I would be mildly surprised if he's still on this team next season, just because I don't know that they've invested any sort of tangible equity in him that would make me think they would even give him his qualifying offer and restricted free agency, even though I think that's exactly what they should do. Yes, And even while you know, applauding the fact that this roster isn't just like jam pack with mercenary free agents the way it was last season, it is a little bit crowded, and the way you know, because quickly is someone who is now going to demand minutes and because there's just there's a bunch of guards, because you know, I could see a path where Neil Keenan isn't really getting a ton of minutes for long stretches of this season, and then you can see how that ends up with him wanting an offer sheet elsewhere and the Knicks maybe letting that happen, And so I hope otherwise, because that's a guy I've enjoyed rooting for it, and he's been frustrating and disappointing in some ways, But like I think that is, you know, he is a rotation player, I think on a good team, and I hope that the Knicks intended to be a good team someday and I would love for him to be a part of it because I like him. But yeah, like you said, it's gonna there's sort of a narrow path to that future You've just given the way things of shaking out. I'm gonna lea loop these two together because I know you're running short on time. Who do you have more hope for between Kevin Knox and Dennis Smith Jr. I guess Kevin Knox. Yeah, I guess Kevin Knox, but if only, if only because the the profile that he brings to the table sort of coming in lends itself more to having a role that's a bit less than what was expected. I think, you know, Dennis Smith, given his heights and the sort of need to play him at a particular position, just sort of like has more boxes that he needs to check to be a useful NBA player, right, Like, Buddy, you got to be able to either hit some of these shots from outside, or get the rim and finish consistently and drop fouls, or be a really good propassor because you're not very big, you know, and I just haven't seen that. I think that he clearly got it into his head to try really hard on defense. And that's awesome that, you know, at least in the preseason that's what it looked like. But like it's still he still just has so much he would need to change in terms of what he's offering consistently for him to earn NBA minutes. And just given the way Knots is built, given his age, he I think projects more as like you know, you can imagine him more as a role player. It's like, Okay, well, maybe he's not going to be a lottery pick star type that justifies his draft and the promise he had coming in. You know, maybe he is not the diamond and the ref that you saw it, but like maybe he is a dude who like can finishing transition in him and open three. I wouldn't bet really on it. I wouldn't bet on either of them, but Knox seems like there's a clear path toward finding a role. He, like so many guys we've named, is still at the point of his career where it's like, all right, you know, you need to keep experimenting and need to keep improving, but then at a certain point, we also need to find a more defined, more limited and constrained role for you. And I think it's one can imagine a version of Kevin Knox that does play a limited, constrained, you know, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, guide type of role Dennis Smith. That's it's just harder for me to imagine. And you know, he's further along on the development timeline where you know, there's a little bit less hope that like, oh no, maybe he's just a superstar and he's not a role player. That's kind of hard to envision at this point. Yeah, I want to hold out hope for him because apparently like really work on like try to rework his jumper over the extended off season that he had. But I think you just hit it right on the head. Was fit matters and Kevin Knox has the potential to be plug and play where I don't know that you can envision Dennis Smith Jr. Ever playing a role where he doesn't need to dominate the ball. Yeah, I And I hope. So, you know, I like him, and he's he's had a tough time the last couple of years. He hasn't you know, His opportunities have been hindered, and he's hurt himself and he's gone through stuff personally, And you know, I would the Knicks could really use the best possible version of Dennis Smith and if not the next then someone could. And he's got a future as as a backup point guard either way, I would hope maybe. I mean he was not this like, he wasn't great in Dallas, but he was just he's reached like all time inefficient levels of bad. And so there's a better player in Aaron I Doe that he comes back from it. Yeah, me too. So twofold question as I get close to wrapping this up is one, let's assume the Knicks are in a close game and they want to win in who do you think they're crunch time most used crunch Time lineup should be the Other part of that would be is there a let's get weird lineup that you would really like to see Tim's trot out at some point. I mean, it's I'll think about it, but the answer is obviously yes to the second one. I always want to get weird. But the first question, you know, I think we haven't seen him play basketball in a Kicks uniform yet, but like Austin Rivers is probably the closest thing. The next have to like just go create a shot kind of a guy, which at least ostensibly is the type of person one wants to have on the floor against the opponent's best defensive lineup with time taking off the clock, So it probably includes Austin Rivers. You want shooters out there, and I think Emmanuel Quickly has maybe already shown that he has a little bit of what I just described, combined with like he'll just catch Hi hit the three if our Austin Rivers person breaks down the defense. So I'm gonna throw him out there. Because there aren't that many options. You probably want another spot shooter who's not going to do something really dumb, and so maybe Redney Bullock or Alec Burks. And then I think realistically Julius Randall's gonna be on the floor because he gets paid like someone who should be on the floor at that moment. And then you know Robinson or Maryland's I think both are there for your tipping. But if you're really trying to spread the floor and you are not letting Mitchell Robinson shoot threes, then I guess maybe you're playing a lineup with on offense, with Topping and Randall out there, or there's probably a mixed player that I'm not even thinking of right now. You know, maybe you're just playing really small, but the options are limited if you if you really needed a bucket. But I oh, I forgot to mention d Barrett okay, Arja Barretts on the floor too. I think the short answer to the questions that Nicks are not going a lot of games and putting the exact opposite of the best lineup out there. I don't know what they're going to be doing, but I, you know, I I hope they find themselves in those situations because those are fun and productive for developing young players. But I don't know that a lot of those situations are going to go their way. But you know, you want a ball handler and some shooters do you have a let's get weird lineup you'd like to see. I think the weird lineup is probably just like the big and long lineup. So it's you know, your guards are like Neil Kina and quickly, Actually, you know what, I want Sharrett Harper on the floor. I am. I'm the Jared Harper guy. I've decided, Okay, I've chosen to make my whole personality believing that Jared Harper is an NBA player. So I actually scratched my answer to the prior question too. Jared Harper is your ball handler. He he is cutting people up, burying pull up threes, getting to the rim, and then after that it's who cares you know, it's no. I would love to see Neila Keena and quickly share share minutes. I think that's a really interesting defensive backcourt. Not because quickly he's good or making good decisions or like applying effort in a way that's productive on defense, but like he's got pretty good instincts and he's got long arms and all those sorts of things you like. And Neil Keena is sort of a more refined version of that, and so it'd be fun to watch them them and maybe Barrett as well, swarming ball handlers, and then Mitchell Robinson in the middle of that. It's fun. So I think I just designed a lineup that has a five eight point guard and then three more guards and then Mitchell Robinson. But you said it should be weird, so there you go. Yeah, you're making me wonder if you have some sort of endorsement deal with Auburn or something on that. Yeah, way, who's the other guy, Bryce Brown? We're putting him out there. I think I think they just cut him. But yeah, I'm actually just a huge Auburn train. Mine would be, and I normally skew towards shooting, and this lineup would probably be iffy, but I think it has a chance to be like very mismatchy and semi good. Defensively, it's Robinson and then you just have you have to go small and Barrett your day Facto four and then give me Rivers, Immanuel Quickly and Frankie Lakina. I love it. I feel like that lineup could fuck shit up, like and I'm like, like, I would love to see it. I hope it's If I do see it, I'm going to send out the bat signal on Twitter just to know that I saw because I really hope I got it. They won't. But that lineup, I don't think that's that, you know, at least something pretty close to that. I don't think that that is that outlanded a lineup. It's no Jared Harper running point for you. It's not Jared Harper running point. So it has that, you know, working against it. Mine's better for that reason alone. But for real though, like that lineup could play some version of that old school Thibadeau you know, everyone just ice defense, or you could play sort of a trap I would love that lineup to play a trap defense where you tell Mitchell Robinson, you park in the paint, you play like brook Brook Lopez, you take you dip one toe out every three seconds. You just stand there and play goalie. Everyone else you you know it's captured the flag. Just go get the ball. Just chase the ball and go crazy and double constantly, and we'll let Mitchell clean up whatever gets past you. Is that the most effective thing in the world? No? Maybe not, But is it fun? Yes? I'm bad. I'd like to thank you too, because of the twenty something of these podcasts I done in the past two weeks. You're only the second person to be receptive to my let's get weird lineup, So I very much appreciate that this is what I'm here for. It to be receptive probably bad ideas. So my final question to you would be, like, what do you consider a likely win total or Eastern Conference standings finished for this team? They're over under is set at twenty two point five. For people who cannot think in terms of seventy two games, like myself, that's the equivalent of a twenty six win season. So would you expect them to be over that? Under that? Do you view them as just the by far the worst team in the East? What are you kind of vibing here? I'm glad you gave me the over under because I was not going to be able to do that pro rating and I had who can Like if it was fifty, like, I kind of get it, you could do it, But like, seventy two is annoying. Twenty two and a half out of seventy two and that's a twenty six win season. I would I would make it's an under, but I think it's just a slight under. I I don't think they're like under despairing garbage in the way that they have been in some prior seasons. And I actually have been deluded enough by you know, random teno runs during the preseason to think that they might have a little bit of sense on defense and might actually play hard and might actually have a little bit of a plan. And man twenty two, that's a very well set line. I think. I think I take the under just because, like I'm everything I'm basing my hope off of is the bottom of the Cleveland Cavaliers preseason roster. So I'll take the under. But I think they might actually be a good and composed bad team. That's so when we did our over underspot here for every NBA team, I called it. I believe in optimistic under. I think that the reason they get there is because I feel like developing youth is going to be a priority, and that also you're probably my guests would be like between Noel Austin Rivers and Alec Burks and even Reggie Bullock, like probably two of those guys finished the year on different teams, and so that you're going to be selling out even more of the veteran minutes. And also if you're gonna play Julius Randol, RJ. Barrett together a bunch then yeah, or Julius rand On, Opie Toppin then give me the under. But it was an optimistic under, like this could be the team. I know people kind of wrote about it like last season that feels like ten years ago at the beginning, like maybe the Knicks are finally fun bad. I think this is the team that might be fun bad finally. It's I hope they're fun bad, and I also hope that they are statistically interesting bad. You know, I referenced those recent very bad like Nats and Sixers teams. I hope and I almost want to say expect, but really just hope and pray that the Knicks are one of those teams that like, you know, yes they are are near the bottom of the league and wins, but if you go left to right on Basketball Reference and look at all their rankings in different statistical categories, that they'll be like, oh, look like they actually have you know, a middle of the road defense, and like oh, in this you know, they actually have a pretty good three point attempt rate, or they actually have a pretty high you know, offensive rebound rate or something where it's like Okay, I can at least see what the intentions are and that they have an identity and they're not just kind of going out there doing whatever, and someone will have left learned something and gained some skills and at least tried to do something this season, which really I don't think could be said about some some recent you know, mixed campaigns, and I'm kind of hopeful that they are not just you know, not just fun to watch, but sort of fun to study of, Like, Okay, if these were better players, if the ball went in the basket more, yeah, this might have worked. You know, at least I can see what they were trying to do, and that's a low bar to to set. But like it is the type of thing that indicates some potential down the road that you know, if they draft right and make a signing here there, that maybe the wonderful things that have happened to those teams, like the sexism and that's could one day happened to the I concur with everything you said that, So I'm holding out hope this this could be this could be the year that that happens. I'm hopeful. But did you have anything else that you wanted to touch on that I didn't ask you about. You got off your Jared Harper takes, so I'm not really sure what else there could be. Yeah, that was, you know, that was really I earned my paycheck from the Jared Harper, the superpack of Jared Harper that has been lobbying me. Yeah, so I've I've done my job. Seth, thank you so much for giving me so much of your time. This was this was a blast. It was really fun to talk nicks with you. If you guys are not already following Seth on Twitter, I don't understand why he can be found at Seth unders or Rosenthal. That's at set H Underscore R O S E N T H A L. Thank you so much once again, and I mean I think at this point you could tell that I'm probably going to be bothering you again in the future. Please do anytime. I'm always happy to talk about the next The reason bull Pizon nobody builds five G like Verizon builds five G because we're the engineers who built the most reliable network in America. And the more you do with five G, the more building it right matters, the more your network matters, the more Verizon engineers going the extra mile matters. It's US pushing US. It's Verizon versus Verizon five G, built right from America's most reliable network, most reliable based on rankings Promoved Metrics second half twenty twenty US report of three mobile networks. Results may vary. Award is not an endorsement.