1 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:14,519 This week's trip Cast is sponsored by find Affordable health coverage through Texas Farm Bureau's 2 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:19,000 Health Plans. For more information or to get a quote, go to TFB 3 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:26,280 health Plans dot com or call eight seven seven five hundred zero one four zero. 4 00:00:26,839 --> 00:00:33,479 And Texas State Technical College's Money Back Garantee Program reinforces our commitment to prepare 5 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:38,840 and place highly skilled, technically competent students in the workforce. Learn more at 6 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:55,039 TSTC dot e du go ahead, Hello, and welcome to the Texas Tribune 7 00:00:55,039 --> 00:00:59,200 trip Cast for June thirty, twenty twenty three. My name's Matthew Watkins, 8 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:02,159 Managing editor of News for the Tribune. This week, we're going to have 9 00:01:02,159 --> 00:01:06,319 a two topic show covering the Supreme Court's ruling on affirmative action and the heat 10 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:11,359 waves impact on Texas's unair conditioned prisons. Joining us for the first segment is 11 00:01:11,439 --> 00:01:15,560 Kalin Belsha, a national writer for the education website Chalkbeat. Hi, Kalin, 12 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:21,239 Hey there, Hey, thanks for joining us so on Thursday. As 13 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:26,799 I'm sure most of our listeners know, the Supreme Court essentially banned universities from 14 00:01:26,879 --> 00:01:30,480 using racial preferences and admissions. The decision will impact admissions at the University of 15 00:01:30,519 --> 00:01:34,439 Texas at Austin, which is the only public school in the state that considers 16 00:01:34,519 --> 00:01:38,640 race. It's also the most competitive public school in the state. But it 17 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:44,079 will also impact admissions at private schools and Texas such as Rice, SMU, 18 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:48,000 TCU, and it will also impact the college decisions for many students in the 19 00:01:48,079 --> 00:01:52,519 state. A state where sixty five percent of students in K through twelve schools 20 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:57,480 are Hispanic or Black, and where Texas is big cities and border areas are 21 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:02,760 kind of hotbeds for recruiting for elite school around the country looking to kind of 22 00:02:02,799 --> 00:02:09,159 boost their diversity geographically and racially. Kaylin, the headline from your breaking news 23 00:02:09,159 --> 00:02:15,599 story yesterday highlighted how racial diversity in colleges is likely to suffer from this decision. 24 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:20,120 What can you say about what the impact of this ruling might look like 25 00:02:20,439 --> 00:02:23,759 and what kind of our university leaders are expecting in the aftermath of this. 26 00:02:25,039 --> 00:02:30,280 Yeah, I think something that we've heard time and again heads of colleges and 27 00:02:30,319 --> 00:02:34,520 from folks who work in admissions is that their expectation is that black, especially 28 00:02:34,599 --> 00:02:39,800 and Latino students will decline that they'll see a big dip immediately following, and 29 00:02:39,879 --> 00:02:45,240 that there will also be some effect for indigenous students. That's based on what 30 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:49,840 we've seen in states that previously banned affirmative action. Often we saw a big 31 00:02:49,879 --> 00:02:52,879 dip right away, and then some of it ticked back up over time, 32 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:57,400 but in general it doesn't stay kind of with the share of students who've gotten 33 00:02:57,439 --> 00:03:00,599 more diverse. A lot of that evidence has come out Offornia, where that 34 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:05,520 state has become increasingly diverse, and even though colleges have worked really hard to 35 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:07,280 stay diverse, it has not kept up with a diversity of the state. 36 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:12,719 So that's based on kind of what we've heard from college presidents. Sure, 37 00:03:12,759 --> 00:03:15,120 and you know, in Texas we've actually seen a preview of this as well. 38 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:19,960 Back in nineteen ninety six, there was a federal Court of Appeals case 39 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:24,199 that blocked state universities from considering race for a while. At UT Austin, 40 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:30,439 during that time, Hispanic enrollment dropped by fifteen percent in one year. Black 41 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:35,400 enrollment dropped by twenty five percent in one year. Of course, that case 42 00:03:35,479 --> 00:03:42,159 eventually got overturned Texas schools were allowed to begin using affirmative action again. UT 43 00:03:42,319 --> 00:03:46,280 Austin chose to Texas A and M, the other kind of flagship school in 44 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:49,560 the state did not. But it's been a thing where, like you said, 45 00:03:49,599 --> 00:03:52,000 there was an attempt to tick back up. I mean, one of 46 00:03:52,039 --> 00:03:54,759 the big things that kind of came up from that was the implementation of the 47 00:03:54,800 --> 00:04:00,000 Texas Top ten percent rule, which guarantees admission to you know, anyone who 48 00:04:00,039 --> 00:04:04,800 graduates near the top of their class. Seventy five of utastin students now get 49 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:10,080 in from that rule. And actually, interestingly, if you look at the 50 00:04:10,159 --> 00:04:14,759 statistics, the segment of the student body is actually more diverse from that top 51 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:18,720 ten percent group than the holistic review which considers race. I think one of 52 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:24,279 the things that we're going to be kind of watching over the next few weeks, 53 00:04:24,399 --> 00:04:30,480 months, years, even is what kind of steps do these universities nationally 54 00:04:30,519 --> 00:04:36,240 and in Texas take to kind of still accomplish their diversity goals while kind of, 55 00:04:36,319 --> 00:04:42,120 you know, living under the guidelines of this ruling and you know, 56 00:04:42,199 --> 00:04:46,319 not going up against it. What are you hearing from university officials, from 57 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:50,639 people in this field so far about how that might look. Yeah, so 58 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:55,800 I think we're hearing two different things. We're hearing from colleges that they will 59 00:04:55,800 --> 00:05:00,680 comply with what the Supreme Court ruling is. Some have said that they're going 60 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:04,680 to be looking for workarounds, but they can't be workarounds that basically are proxies 61 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:09,720 for race. So there's a really fine line that colleges say that they're walking. 62 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:13,240 I think at this point they're looking at some of the text of the 63 00:05:13,319 --> 00:05:17,040 ruling that explicitly says socio economic factors are fine, and so I think we've 64 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:19,600 heard a lot of colleges say they're going to be looking at students from low 65 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:24,360 income families, which is already true, but kind of class based affrimative action 66 00:05:24,959 --> 00:05:27,920 whether or not students are the first in their family to go to college, 67 00:05:28,079 --> 00:05:30,680 which are those students are just proportionately black and Latino, so there is some 68 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:38,120 crossover there. We've also seen talk of continuing to use recruitment programs, going 69 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:43,319 after students from particular high schools, particular communities, those have That would have 70 00:05:43,439 --> 00:05:46,519 been something that people were worried that the Supreme Court might address, but it's 71 00:05:46,519 --> 00:05:49,279 not in the ruling, and so people are kind of still looking at recruitment 72 00:05:49,319 --> 00:05:53,959 as a way to do that. We know that from the California case when 73 00:05:53,959 --> 00:05:59,279 they banned affirmative action. There a lot of colleges did use recruitment and that 74 00:05:59,399 --> 00:06:01,879 became something that was actually quite expensive. They spent a lot more time and 75 00:06:01,959 --> 00:06:08,279 money going to schools and it did work in some fashion, but it costs 76 00:06:08,319 --> 00:06:11,160 schools millions and millions of dollars. So I think some of the question is 77 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:15,160 whether or not colleges are going to want to invest that money to remain racially 78 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:20,120 diverse. We had an announcement yesterday from President Biden who said that he is 79 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:25,879 directing the Education Department and the Department of Justice to basically look at the ruling 80 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:30,720 and see what are the forms of admission policies that are still legally permissible. 81 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:34,800 There's some things in the descent from Justice Sonia Sotomayor that suggests that there are 82 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:40,000 some things that schools might still be able to do. Chief Justice John Roberts 83 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:45,079 explicitly said that it's still okay for students to talk about how race affected their 84 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:48,319 lives, including how they experienced racial discrimination, and for schools to look at 85 00:06:48,319 --> 00:06:53,519 that. They just can't award a point a tip based on the students race, 86 00:06:53,639 --> 00:06:55,839 like they can't look at the essay and say, okay, I can 87 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:59,959 tell that the student is black based on the anti black discrimination that they experience. 88 00:07:00,439 --> 00:07:03,279 It would have to be because that student experienced racism and has some kind 89 00:07:03,319 --> 00:07:09,399 of qualification or skill that they learned from that basically. But I think what 90 00:07:09,439 --> 00:07:14,920 we've heard from college admissions counselors is that that's kind of difficult to disentangle, 91 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:16,439 and so we're not really sure. You know, this might not come out 92 00:07:16,519 --> 00:07:23,240 until there's future litigation. And the Students for Fair Admissions, which was the 93 00:07:23,759 --> 00:07:26,480 folks who initiated these lawsuits, they're saying, you know, we're gonna be 94 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:30,839 watching really carefully to see what schools do and how they change their policies to 95 00:07:30,879 --> 00:07:33,040 see if they're trying to get around the ruling by doing exactly that by looking 96 00:07:33,079 --> 00:07:35,839 at the essays. So I think the personal essays are going to be like 97 00:07:35,879 --> 00:07:40,759 a very fraught area in the next couple of years. Yeah. I thought 98 00:07:40,759 --> 00:07:44,240 that was a really interesting point in an issue here. I mean, there 99 00:07:44,319 --> 00:07:48,680 was a university president quoted in The New York Times yesterday basically imagining an essay 100 00:07:48,759 --> 00:07:55,240 question similar to di statements that some university professors are asked to fill out in 101 00:07:55,279 --> 00:07:58,800 their applications, you know, as a kind of a way to talk about 102 00:07:58,839 --> 00:08:03,720 diversity away to kind of measure and grade it without necessarily giving people points or 103 00:08:05,519 --> 00:08:09,279 or you know, extra, you know, consideration because of their race. 104 00:08:09,079 --> 00:08:13,480 That made me think about how in Texas, you know that we just got 105 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:18,279 through a legislative session where the legislature sort of waged a war against those kinds 106 00:08:18,319 --> 00:08:22,600 of statements, specifically targeting d EI programs and d EI statements. And I 107 00:08:22,639 --> 00:08:28,959 do wonder about how in red states, Texas in particular, how there might 108 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:33,960 be some hesitation to draw those kinds of legal challenges from groups like Students for 109 00:08:35,519 --> 00:08:41,559 Visions, a group led by Edward Bloom who has sued Texas universities many times 110 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:45,039 in the past. And I'm not sure they want to necessarily get entangled in 111 00:08:45,039 --> 00:08:50,000 those kinds of fights when when you know, they might kind of get an 112 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:54,600 angry legislature or an angry governor or even board of regions kind of reacting to 113 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:58,480 those kinds of pushbacks. So it'll it'll be interesting to see how the combination 114 00:08:58,639 --> 00:09:03,279 of this ruling the political climate affects kind of the approach to some of these 115 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:07,799 things. One thing I wanted to ask you too, a little bit about 116 00:09:07,799 --> 00:09:09,399 you you've touched on this a little bit, is the idea of maybe that 117 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:13,240 this might make university admissions more opaque. I mean, one thing that we 118 00:09:13,279 --> 00:09:22,840 saw in Texas in nineteen ninety six was there was this pushback against areas that 119 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:28,200 might benefit students who are disproportionately white or wealthy, and so Texas A and 120 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:33,480 M University at that time stopped considering legacy admissions and things like that. And 121 00:09:33,519 --> 00:09:39,120 there's been some suggestions that maybe this will cause universities to you know, de 122 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:45,799 emphasize test scores or or even you know, class rank where maybe perhaps white 123 00:09:45,799 --> 00:09:50,960 and Asian students are disproportionately scoring higher than black and Hispanic students are under other 124 00:09:52,120 --> 00:10:00,879 underrepresented groups. Do you see a significant change in the way universities evaluate applicants 125 00:10:00,919 --> 00:10:03,559 beyond just on the issue of race, Like, could we see you know, 126 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:07,519 other factors being more emphasized or de emphasized as a result of this. 127 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:13,320 Yeah, I mean, I think it's to get very messy. Something that 128 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:18,120 the President suggested yesterday was creating a new adversity index so that schools might be 129 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:22,000 able to create something that I mean that to me sounds quite opaque, but 130 00:10:22,279 --> 00:10:26,120 using that basically as a way that you could talk about adversity, hardship, 131 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:31,320 coming from a low income family experiencing racial discrimination, so kind of finding other 132 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:37,639 ways to blend race into student experience and then finding a measurable way to include 133 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:43,080 that in the way that admissions counselors are looking at your application. I've also 134 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:46,200 heard admissions counselors say that they might introduce even more essay questions and so there 135 00:10:46,279 --> 00:10:50,679 might just be more writing that will students will be having to do. Maybe 136 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:54,279 the recommendation letter will become more important because folks will be able to attest to 137 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:58,919 some of the resilience that students have. Yeah, I think it's it's going 138 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:01,039 to be a big challenge, and gen I think not every admissions counselor is 139 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:05,279 going to, you know, have the same kind of changes in policies. 140 00:11:05,279 --> 00:11:09,559 And that's something else we've heard from high schools is that a lot of the 141 00:11:09,639 --> 00:11:13,879 counselors are going to have to be tracking all of these changes that admissions policies 142 00:11:13,919 --> 00:11:16,720 are going to be making, and so it's going to be even harder potentially 143 00:11:16,799 --> 00:11:20,120 for low income students, lowmencomme students of color who don't necessarily have access to 144 00:11:22,159 --> 00:11:24,559 dedicated college counselor to be able to help them go through all of these changing 145 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:30,639 policies to optimize their application. Right, if you're basically if you're trying to 146 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:33,480 cast a wide net, particularly if you're applying to elite schools, and those 147 00:11:33,519 --> 00:11:39,200 schools are adding essay requirements or other requirements, that makes it more burdensome to 148 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:41,679 kind of get those out. I mean, another thing you sort of mentioned 149 00:11:41,759 --> 00:11:46,639 was just maybe the idea of, like you said, students lowering their college 150 00:11:46,639 --> 00:11:50,679 ambitions. You know, I am a former higher education reporter, and I 151 00:11:50,759 --> 00:11:58,840 remember specifically talking to a student who was applying who had actually had been admitted 152 00:11:58,879 --> 00:12:03,000 to Texas A and M. A went to a universe, went to a 153 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:07,080 high school in Dallas, and was really struggling to decide whether to go to 154 00:12:07,159 --> 00:12:11,000 kind of the community college in her area or to go to A and M. 155 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:16,600 And really just feeling like Texas A and M wasn't made for people like 156 00:12:16,799 --> 00:12:20,279 her. And it was almost like painful to hear her talk about that because 157 00:12:20,279 --> 00:12:24,559 she was such a smart, ambitious, responsible student, and you would think 158 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:26,639 that she would do so well at this. But there is just a question 159 00:12:26,879 --> 00:12:31,559 of certain people who maybe their parents didn't go to college. Do they not 160 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:35,320 see those types of schools as places where they are meant to be? What 161 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:39,320 are you hearing from students so far? Do you think that that's a legitimate 162 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:46,399 concern that this might affect, you know, whether they should even apply to 163 00:12:46,399 --> 00:12:50,720 certain schools. I mean, this is definitely a concern that I've heard from 164 00:12:50,799 --> 00:12:52,919 high school counselors who work with a lot of low income students of color who 165 00:12:52,919 --> 00:12:56,440 are high achieving, I think in the past, and this has been true 166 00:12:56,440 --> 00:13:00,679 over the last few years before this decision, that there's been and much more 167 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:03,799 focus from students about will I fit in on this campus and will this campus 168 00:13:03,799 --> 00:13:07,480 support me? And will there be other students who look like me on this 169 00:13:07,519 --> 00:13:11,399 campus. So this is something that college counselors, you know, high school 170 00:13:11,399 --> 00:13:15,639 counselors had already said this was an increasing worry that they're seeing among students, 171 00:13:15,879 --> 00:13:20,480 and so this decision could make this conversation even more important for students who might 172 00:13:20,519 --> 00:13:24,919 say, Okay, I see this school, they're losing diversity. They don't 173 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:28,120 maybe have as good of a shot of getting in anymore. Maybe some of 174 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:31,639 their promises around diversity have changed, and so I don't want to apply here, 175 00:13:31,639 --> 00:13:35,120 so that could potentially happen, and we do have some really good evidence 176 00:13:35,159 --> 00:13:39,519 actually out of Texas after they lifted the ban on a government of action, 177 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:45,679 there's been a research that showed students SAT scores went up, their grades went 178 00:13:45,759 --> 00:13:48,759 up, and this was especially true for high achieving students of color, black 179 00:13:48,759 --> 00:13:52,639 and Latino students. And so the researcher who did that work told me she 180 00:13:52,799 --> 00:13:58,000 thinks that kind of the motivation increased when students thought that they had a better 181 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:01,279 chance of getting in and they actually had better attendance and they'd spent more time 182 00:14:01,279 --> 00:14:05,639 on their homework, and so you know, maybe those students aren't interested in 183 00:14:05,639 --> 00:14:11,639 applying to the super selective schools anymore, but it could also lower their grades 184 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:13,720 and test scores to help them get into other schools. So I think a 185 00:14:13,759 --> 00:14:16,879 lot of people are worried too that students will just end up at maybe less 186 00:14:16,879 --> 00:14:22,240 selective schools that may not have as high of kind of a benefit of social 187 00:14:22,279 --> 00:14:24,759 capital. A lot of high achieving students of color get a lot of benefit 188 00:14:24,759 --> 00:14:30,240 out of going to highly selective schools. Some people are also predicting that there 189 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:33,639 would be a lot more interest in going to HBCUs and Hispanic serving institutions, 190 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:39,279 but those schools can't necessarily absorb all the students who might be interested. So 191 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:41,600 I think we're just going to see a lot more conversation around fit, around 192 00:14:41,639 --> 00:14:46,279 what support this school actually provides to students of color, and we're kind of 193 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:50,919 graduation rates and financially aid they're providing to those students. Yeah, I mean, 194 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:54,080 I think one of the lessons that Texas provides just in general is, 195 00:14:54,519 --> 00:14:56,679 you know, we have the top ten percent rule. Now we have or 196 00:14:56,720 --> 00:15:01,639 we had up until yesterday, affirmative action at the top public school in the 197 00:15:01,679 --> 00:15:05,639 state. And it's just a lot of hard work, right, I mean, 198 00:15:05,679 --> 00:15:11,240 to get a diverse student body. Texas has an incredibly diverse collection of 199 00:15:11,279 --> 00:15:16,720 students graduating from high school, but those, you know, the top universities 200 00:15:16,759 --> 00:15:20,600 in the state, the most selective universities in the state, simply just don't 201 00:15:20,679 --> 00:15:26,360 reflect that diversity on an even level. And I guess we'll see how this 202 00:15:26,399 --> 00:15:30,720 decision affects it. What are you watching over the next few weeks, months, 203 00:15:31,679 --> 00:15:35,360 maybe even years to to measure, you know, what the long term 204 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:39,440 impact of this decision will be. Well, I think first I'm interested to 205 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:43,240 see what this guidance from the Department of Justice and from the Education Department will 206 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:46,919 look like. President Biden said he expected it to come out within forty five 207 00:15:46,039 --> 00:15:50,320 days, so by later this summer we should see some guidance around at least 208 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:54,960 what the Biden administration is interpreting to still be legal and what kinds of admissions 209 00:15:54,960 --> 00:16:00,039 practices that colleges can still use for the upcoming application site. I will be 210 00:16:00,039 --> 00:16:04,879 interested to also see what students say they're noticing about how applications are changing. 211 00:16:06,159 --> 00:16:08,240 High school juniors right now are kind of in the process of getting ready to 212 00:16:08,279 --> 00:16:11,840 apply, and some folks might have already written their essay and they might be 213 00:16:11,879 --> 00:16:17,960 revising their essay. I've seen conflicting guidance from folks about whether or not now 214 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:22,039 students should really emphasize their race in their essay, or should they not emphasize 215 00:16:22,039 --> 00:16:26,960 their race in their essay. I think I've also seen some concern about, 216 00:16:26,039 --> 00:16:30,960 you know, basically like forcing students to talk about adversity adversities that they experience 217 00:16:32,039 --> 00:16:34,799 because of their race in their essay, and maybe that's not the best representation 218 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:37,399 of what they would want to put forward, but they're going to feel pressure 219 00:16:37,559 --> 00:16:41,320 to talk about that, So I think I'm really interested in that. And 220 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:45,759 then also just whether or not students say that they're changing where they want to 221 00:16:45,799 --> 00:16:49,080 go to school, especially high achieving students of color. Are they making decisions 222 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:53,360 differently about where they would apply? Yeah, it seems like these next few 223 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:59,240 graduating classes that will be particularly challenging because they'll be having they won't have the 224 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:03,799 experience of you know, past students knowing kind of what works and what doesn't 225 00:17:03,799 --> 00:17:07,400 and what the best strategies are. It'll be definitely interesting to watch. All 226 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:10,839 right, Well, thank you Kalin for joining us. We will continue to 227 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:15,759 track this story. Let's take a break in here from our sponsors, Austin 228 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:21,880 Community Foundation. A new report by the Women's Fund at Austin Community Foundation explores 229 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:26,599 what life is like for women in Central Texas. Read it now at AUSTINCF 230 00:17:26,079 --> 00:17:33,880 dot org. Slash Women twenty twenty three and Good Reason Houston believes students deserve 231 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:38,440 great school options. Explore our data dashboard to find out how schools are performing. 232 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:44,319 Learn more at Good Reason Houston dot org. Okay, so it has 233 00:17:44,319 --> 00:17:48,599 been unfathomably hot in Texas this month, with records being broken all over the 234 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:52,920 state, and few people in Texas feel the brunt of a heatwave more than 235 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:56,680 prisoners and prison guards. Most of the state's prisons are unair conditioned. People 236 00:17:56,720 --> 00:18:03,759 inside one Huntsville prison September reached one hundred and thirty degrees last week, but 237 00:18:03,839 --> 00:18:08,759 the state's prison agency has only reported five heat related illnesses among prisoners so far 238 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:14,279 this year, and the state hasn't reported a heat related death since twenty twenty 239 00:18:14,279 --> 00:18:19,359 twelve. Joining us to discuss this topic is criminal justice reporter Jolie McCullough. 240 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:25,519 Hey, Jolie, Hey, So, I just have to ask very quickly 241 00:18:25,559 --> 00:18:29,759 first, these numbers, no heat related death since twenty twenty twelve, only 242 00:18:29,759 --> 00:18:34,039 five heat related illnesses. How skeptically should we be viewing these numbers? I 243 00:18:34,079 --> 00:18:38,599 would say, Gary, So the reason why isn't so. Twenty twelve is 244 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:44,480 the last time that the agency officially said, Okay, someone died of heat 245 00:18:44,519 --> 00:18:49,440 stroke in our prisons. Since then, the Texas Department of Criminal Justice has 246 00:18:49,559 --> 00:18:56,359 been hit with a lot of lawsuits, wrongful death lawsuits of men who died 247 00:18:56,359 --> 00:19:00,119 of heat stroke for the prison not you know, doing enough to help help 248 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:04,599 them and safe them and keep them safe. There have also there's also been 249 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:11,759 a long year's long civil rights lawsuit at one a class action lawsuit at one 250 00:19:11,839 --> 00:19:18,720 prison, a geriatric prison, essentially saying that it violated the Constitution's protection from 251 00:19:18,759 --> 00:19:26,319 cool and unusual punishment to not have air conditioning in a geriatric facility. After 252 00:19:26,559 --> 00:19:33,720 years and millions of dollars fighting that lawsuit, the department actually did settle and 253 00:19:33,799 --> 00:19:38,079 agreed to install air conditioning in that one prison. So the incentive is not 254 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:42,000 really there forever for them to say that a death was heat related, because 255 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:48,160 it has landed them in court a lot and very costly court battles. Aside 256 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:51,319 from that, in terms of heat related illnesses, as you said, they've 257 00:19:51,319 --> 00:19:56,039 reported five this year, they've reported nine among staff. And that's something that 258 00:19:56,160 --> 00:20:02,720 prisoners and advocates really hard on, UM, saying that you know, the 259 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:06,640 prisoners are there twenty four to seven, they get no relief, they don't 260 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:08,640 get to go home, they don't get to you know, sit in air 261 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:14,279 conditioning or take a cold shower very often, um, despite them being supposed 262 00:20:14,319 --> 00:20:19,480 to. And it's there's also seven times more prisoners than there are staff, 263 00:20:19,759 --> 00:20:25,200 UM, So they don't really think it's they're they're not logging most of these 264 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:30,880 inmate deaths and I are inmate illnesses and can tell you, um, just 265 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:37,119 based on what I hear from prisoners and letters and also from their moms and 266 00:20:37,519 --> 00:20:41,240 loved ones, their girlfriends, their wives, UM, their husbands. Um, 267 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:47,759 this is you know, I've I've heard way more than five m situations 268 00:20:47,839 --> 00:20:52,720 where inmates have said they've passed out. Um, you know, it just 269 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:56,119 there's a there's a lot more than you know it is being reported to me 270 00:20:56,319 --> 00:21:02,279 and to advocates that is being reported by the States, the State Department. 271 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:07,640 So that that's kind of where I get into in terms of how skeptically we 272 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:11,839 should be viewing these numbers. Well, what can you tell us just about 273 00:21:11,839 --> 00:21:17,319 what it's like to be in a prison in Texas in the summer. Yeah, 274 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:22,480 So basically in these prisons, it's about seventy prisons that don't have air 275 00:21:22,519 --> 00:21:27,960 conditioning in most of the facilities in most like the living areas where the prisoners 276 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:36,559 are usually these are concrete and metal buildings, oftentimes with like metal beds. 277 00:21:36,759 --> 00:21:41,799 So you know, inmates have said it's it's basically impossible to lay on their 278 00:21:41,839 --> 00:21:45,720 bed because it's hot to the touch. It's just a metal slab um. 279 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:51,160 You know, they if they're in the cells, they will have a sink 280 00:21:51,279 --> 00:21:55,480 that has water, but they often say it's almost it's incredibly hot water that 281 00:21:55,519 --> 00:21:59,559 comes out of the sink. But even still, I've had so many prisoners 282 00:21:59,559 --> 00:22:03,240 tell me that they will wet their sheets in the hot water and just put 283 00:22:03,319 --> 00:22:07,480 it on the concrete floor and try to weligh in the water to try to 284 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:12,240 get some relief. That way, you hear of a lot of prisoners will 285 00:22:12,279 --> 00:22:18,519 break their windows because they're just desperate for any type of air flow to come 286 00:22:18,559 --> 00:22:21,319 in. Even though the hot the air is hot outside. You know, 287 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:25,960 when you're inside these prisons, the temperatures are generally much higher than the outside 288 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:30,960 temperatures, which are already at this point and incredibly high. So it's really 289 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:36,160 you know, um, prisoners report like they have heat rash. They're often 290 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:41,480 dizzy, they have they're often fainting. They're reporting that they're fainting, and 291 00:22:41,559 --> 00:22:47,000 these are just I mean, it's a miserable situation for everyone involved. I 292 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:48,920 think is fair to say, yeah, and it's not just you know, 293 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:55,599 there are some people who might be dismissive of this because these are people, 294 00:22:55,799 --> 00:23:00,640 you know, serving time for serious sentences, and of course, you know, 295 00:23:00,599 --> 00:23:04,799 there are legitimate questions to ask about whether anyone should be treated like this, 296 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:10,000 no matter why. But it is also an if shoot that affects the 297 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:14,720 prison guards right in the prison staffing in terms of people whose job it is 298 00:23:14,759 --> 00:23:18,000 to do this, but also who's going to want to work in a prison 299 00:23:18,039 --> 00:23:22,200 that's one hundred and thirty degrees right, And so that it's kind of a 300 00:23:22,319 --> 00:23:26,240 vicious cycle because these are and you know, corrections officers have also been at 301 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:30,680 the legislature asking for this money, like, hey, can we please put 302 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:36,400 air conditioning in prisons because this isn't like it's an unsafe work environment. Prisons 303 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:40,799 are, you know, the Texas prisons have been understaffed since I can remember, 304 00:23:40,839 --> 00:23:44,799 since I know, since I've been here, you know, and they're 305 00:23:44,839 --> 00:23:49,640 getting they were severe, you know, severely understaffed during over the last few 306 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:53,160 years, it's gotten worse and worse. So the prisons are very hard. 307 00:23:53,279 --> 00:23:57,519 It's very hard for them to keep officers in this job. And a lot 308 00:23:57,519 --> 00:24:03,599 of the times that's at least partially contributed attributed to the heat. These officers 309 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:07,720 have to work in these same environments that they're having to wear off in like 310 00:24:07,799 --> 00:24:12,640 heavy gear. And that's also in terms of what prisoners are saying is why 311 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:17,640 and sometimes they don't even blame the officers why they're not getting the relief that 312 00:24:18,319 --> 00:24:23,200 the Texas Department and Criminal Justice is meant to give them these mitigating factors, 313 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:27,599 which is supposed to be all prisoners are supposed to have unlimited access to ice 314 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:33,000 water. That is I can't I hear over and over again that that just 315 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:37,680 doesn't happen because the guards who are supposed to be passing that out just are 316 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:41,440 not. They don't either there's not enough of them or the ones who are 317 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:45,920 there are just not willing or able to go into these areas to hand out 318 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:49,880 this ice water. And so it's it's really it's yeah, it's bad for 319 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:55,960 everyone involved. So tell us about some of the recent deaths that you've been 320 00:24:56,000 --> 00:25:00,000 looking at that have not been attributed to heat at least so far. Yeah, 321 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,880 So what I've been doing in the last few weeks during this heat wave 322 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:08,319 as it's kind of spiked up as I've been looking at. The prison agency 323 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:14,599 is required to report all deaths within their custody within thirty days of the death 324 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,960 to the state. They report they report it to the Attorney General's office, 325 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:22,160 and there's an online database of those reports. So I've been looking at those 326 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:27,839 reports every day and just looking for anything that is unexplained or maybe a little 327 00:25:27,839 --> 00:25:34,799 bit seems a little off. So what I found were as well as of 328 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:41,039 yesterday, as of this week, there were now in my story from earlier 329 00:25:41,039 --> 00:25:45,000 this week, I say nine, now I say ten ten deaths since the 330 00:25:45,039 --> 00:25:53,079 middle of June that were either heart attack, cardiac arrest, or undetermined cause 331 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:57,960 of death at not not only ten deaths overall, but these were ten deaths 332 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:04,119 that happened at prisons that did not have air conditioning during days where the heat 333 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:10,039 index was above a hundred degrees in that region, in the region of the 334 00:26:10,079 --> 00:26:15,759 prison. So you know, six six prisoners died of cardiac arrest, heart 335 00:26:15,759 --> 00:26:21,599 attacks, some sort of cardiac event, three of whom were in their thirties, 336 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:25,119 which is always a little bit surprising. You know, heart attacks, 337 00:26:25,839 --> 00:26:30,480 cardiac arrest among people in their thirties is not super common. And so you 338 00:26:30,519 --> 00:26:33,839 know, one of the things that one of the cases that I looked at, 339 00:26:36,039 --> 00:26:38,279 I was able to talk to his sisters, a thirty five year old 340 00:26:38,279 --> 00:26:47,119 who died in a hunt Slow Prison last week and he was out his job. 341 00:26:47,279 --> 00:26:51,559 He was an inmate who had kind of limited supervision. He was well 342 00:26:51,559 --> 00:26:55,319 trusted by the staff to be able to, you know, do jobs that 343 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:59,480 many prisoners are not trusted to do, such as mowing the lawns, maybe 344 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:03,799 outside the fence lines. And he was out mowing during the day and he 345 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:08,920 collapsed and died of what the prison system says was cardiac arrest. And so 346 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:14,839 the thing with this is if it was cardiac arrest. You know, doctors 347 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:19,920 and scientists have long said that heat deaths are very undercounted. And a doctor 348 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:23,799 told me, an emergency room physician told me that it's really hard to say 349 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:30,079 if heat stroke caused a cardiac arrest or if it caused some other type of 350 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:34,839 death unless you're they're measuring a body temperature at the time of death, because 351 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:38,279 you know, bodies cooled down. And also, like it's really hard to 352 00:27:38,319 --> 00:27:42,119 say something was heat stroke unless you can say that this person's body temperature was 353 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:47,720 elevated at the time of death. And that's something that I asked the prison 354 00:27:47,759 --> 00:27:51,400 system if they measure when these are when these types of cases happen, when 355 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:55,839 people are collapsing in very hot prisons, and they have not been able to 356 00:27:55,839 --> 00:27:59,720 give me an answer on if they do that or not. So lastly, 357 00:28:00,039 --> 00:28:03,680 I wanted to just ask about the effort to air condition these prisons. This 358 00:28:03,839 --> 00:28:08,000 was a topic that came up during the most recent legislative session, but maybe 359 00:28:08,039 --> 00:28:12,160 fell short. What is the status of this kind of attempt? Yeah, 360 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:18,359 so this was actually I think tensions are really high going into this summer already 361 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:23,839 among prisoners and prisoner rights advocates, just because this was the closest the legislature 362 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:29,680 had ever gotten to putting real money towards air conditioning prisons, and as you 363 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:34,079 say, it fell short. So essentially, the Texas House proposed putting about 364 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:41,119 half a billion dollars over the next two years towards cooling large a large number 365 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:48,359 of prisons and with the ultimate goal of getting all prisons air conditioned by twenty 366 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:52,599 thirty one, but that didn't go anywhere in the Senate. The Senate didn't 367 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:59,720 want to provide any money for air conditioning prisons. Ultimately, what finally passed 368 00:29:00,119 --> 00:29:04,880 there was about eighty five million dollars that was set aside for quote deferred maintenance, 369 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:11,920 so the agency does not have to use that for air conditioning costs, 370 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:17,319 but it's it's expected that that money will go towards air conditioning some prisons, 371 00:29:18,119 --> 00:29:22,480 and that's what they have right now. They were also already plans with existing 372 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:30,279 budget funds to start putting some air conditioning and other units, including at least 373 00:29:30,319 --> 00:29:34,519 one of the units where a man recently died of a heart of a cardiac 374 00:29:34,599 --> 00:29:41,200 arrest. So they're basically what t DCJ the Department has been doing, is 375 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:45,160 trying to kind of pick away at how much air conditioning they can install with 376 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:49,359 the funding that they they're existing funding, but the legislature has not put any 377 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:53,960 money directly towards this project. Do you have any sense of how far eighty 378 00:29:53,960 --> 00:30:00,279 five million could go? Yeah, So the department had issued a plan at 379 00:30:00,279 --> 00:30:06,359 the during the last few years when the House was looking at how to fund 380 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:08,240 this, and they had put forth a plan and it really the thing is 381 00:30:08,319 --> 00:30:14,960 is it really depends on the prison. Some prisons they estimate and it's also 382 00:30:15,079 --> 00:30:19,759 unclear how well the department can estimate how much prison air conditioning will cost, 383 00:30:19,799 --> 00:30:26,759 because they've grossly overestimated how much it would cost in the past. But they've 384 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:32,079 estimated that at one some prisons. It could be about forty million per prison, 385 00:30:32,559 --> 00:30:36,200 at others, you know, four to five millions, So it really 386 00:30:36,279 --> 00:30:42,759 depends on the units themselves. And just because there's there's heat, all prisons 387 00:30:42,759 --> 00:30:48,519 have heat, so the ducks are there. It's just in terms of getting 388 00:30:48,559 --> 00:30:53,920 the air conditioning system into those prisons as well, can apparently be vastly different 389 00:30:53,960 --> 00:31:00,319 costs it well. I sorrowly recommend folks read Chilie's articles are Dying and Cycling 390 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,960 Texas prisons, but the state seldom acknowledges heat as a cause of death. 391 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:08,039 You can find it at Texas Tribune dot org. Thanks Jolie for joining us. 392 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:12,720 Thank you to our producer Justin, and thank you to our sponsors Texas 393 00:31:12,759 --> 00:31:18,279 Farm Bureau, Texas State Technical College, Austin Community Foundation, and Good Reason 394 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:30,160 Houston. We'll talk to y'all next week, but you always here from Colin 395 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,359 all Red, Barry Weisse, Douglas Brinkley, Mary Trump, and many others. 396 00:31:33,559 --> 00:31:38,240 At the twenty twenty three Texas Tribune Festival, happening September twenty first through 397 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:42,519 the twenty third in Austin, Join us for conversations that matter with leaders in 398 00:31:42,599 --> 00:31:48,759 politics, government, tech and media. Learn more at tripfest dot org.