WEBVTT 1 00:00:20.359 --> 00:00:24.879 Hello, and welcome to Western SIEV. In today's Bonus author interview, I 2 00:00:24.920 --> 00:00:29.320 sit down with historian Peter Cyrus and we discuss his newest book on Justinian. 3 00:00:30.399 --> 00:00:36.560 It really is an all encompassing historical biography. It touches on every aspect of 4 00:00:36.719 --> 00:00:42.479 Justinian's life and his impact on the Byzantine Empire. There's whole sections on, 5 00:00:42.960 --> 00:00:49.320 of course, military affairs Belisardius, Assassinid, Persian Empire, and the reconquest 6 00:00:49.439 --> 00:00:58.840 of the West. There's also lengthy discussions of domestic policy, specifically Justinian's involvement 7 00:00:58.960 --> 00:01:04.560 in theology, which is fascinating topic in and of itself. The historian discusses 8 00:01:06.120 --> 00:01:11.359 the rise of Isophia and the Church and the miracle that that was, and 9 00:01:11.359 --> 00:01:15.480 in terms of its construction. There's something in this book for everyone. I 10 00:01:15.519 --> 00:01:19.760 know a lot of my listeners are avid Roman history bands, and so this 11 00:01:19.920 --> 00:01:23.239 is going to be right up your alley. Now. The book is several 12 00:01:23.400 --> 00:01:26.760 hundred pages long, so we do not have time to get to everything. 13 00:01:26.840 --> 00:01:30.680 I tried to touch on what I felt were some of the most interesting highlights 14 00:01:30.719 --> 00:01:36.400 and also some of the more interesting historical what ifs. But if you're interested 15 00:01:36.680 --> 00:01:38.439 in more information, about justin Ian. Go ahead and clink the link in 16 00:01:38.480 --> 00:01:44.760 the show notes to purchase the book. You will not be disappointed. And 17 00:01:44.840 --> 00:02:01.799 so, without further ado, here's the interview. All right, welcome back. 18 00:02:01.840 --> 00:02:05.680 So, as I mentioned a moment ago, I'm sitting down with historian 19 00:02:05.680 --> 00:02:09.919 Peter Saris and we're talking about his most recent book, Justinian Emperor Soldier Saint. 20 00:02:09.919 --> 00:02:14.479 And I think the title really kind of summarizes, to a large extent, 21 00:02:14.560 --> 00:02:21.280 what is a fantastic book and the complex personality that is the Emperor Justinian. 22 00:02:21.879 --> 00:02:25.840 When I was an undergrad, I took a course on Byzantine history and 23 00:02:27.080 --> 00:02:31.599 we discussed Justinian, but it focused almost entirely on military exploits, particularly his 24 00:02:31.680 --> 00:02:36.520 efforts to reconquer the West. And then when I was in law school, 25 00:02:36.919 --> 00:02:39.879 took a history of law course and it focused on Justinian. But Justinian in 26 00:02:39.919 --> 00:02:45.560 that case, the lawgiver, Justinian, the code maker. Justinian one of 27 00:02:45.599 --> 00:02:52.039 the four runners of early modern jurisprudence, and so it's interesting to think about 28 00:02:52.080 --> 00:02:55.120 him in a lot of different ways. But to start the conversation here, 29 00:02:55.400 --> 00:03:01.319 I think we should frame ourselves and remind the listener is of what the Byzantine 30 00:03:01.680 --> 00:03:07.280 Roman because they would have called themselves Roman world look like at the turn of 31 00:03:07.680 --> 00:03:12.800 the sixth centuries or in sixth century CE, and that's the time that Justinian 32 00:03:12.840 --> 00:03:17.159 comes to power. And so what would the you know, Eastern Mediterranean and 33 00:03:17.280 --> 00:03:22.639 generally you know, European situation would have looked like at the turn of that 34 00:03:22.719 --> 00:03:29.080 sixth century. Yeah, from the perspective of Constantinople, really at the start 35 00:03:29.120 --> 00:03:34.400 of the sixth century, the East Roman Empire ruled from Constantinople was in what 36 00:03:34.439 --> 00:03:38.759 I would think of as a sort of position of ambivalent strength. On the 37 00:03:38.800 --> 00:03:43.280 one hand, it was still one of the two great superpowers of Western Eurasia, 38 00:03:43.719 --> 00:03:50.159 alongside its great rival the Susanian Empire of Persia. From his season Contentinople, 39 00:03:50.199 --> 00:03:54.319 the emperor had a sway extending over still Greece, past the Balkans, 40 00:03:54.840 --> 00:04:00.879 Anatolia, Asia Minor, Syria, Palestine, and Egypt, particularly important given 41 00:04:00.919 --> 00:04:05.240 its the sort of economic powerhouse of the Mediterranean. But beyond that, in 42 00:04:05.280 --> 00:04:11.280 a sort of geopolitical sense, there are two great challenges which are really I 43 00:04:11.280 --> 00:04:15.279 think playing upon people's minds in Constantinople at the start of the century and just 44 00:04:15.360 --> 00:04:19.319 prior to Justinian come into power, the first is that over the course of 45 00:04:19.360 --> 00:04:26.360 the fifth century, the Western Roman Empire had gradually disappeared, and we have 46 00:04:26.480 --> 00:04:34.600 the emergence to a series of independent Romano Germanic successor kingdoms under primarily barbarian rulers. 47 00:04:35.600 --> 00:04:41.759 Now, some of these rulers would still acknowledge some sort of loose overlordship 48 00:04:41.800 --> 00:04:47.560 emanating from Constantinople, but others certainly wouldn't and openly reject Constantinopolitan political claims. 49 00:04:47.639 --> 00:04:53.480 So you have an emperor in Constantinople who is claiming universal authority, but that 50 00:04:53.600 --> 00:04:59.759 universal authority is manifestly contested by the facts on the ground, and core sectors 51 00:04:59.800 --> 00:05:04.639 of the Mediterranean coastline are now under Barbarian domination and court out to the Empire 52 00:05:04.800 --> 00:05:10.680 Italy, North Africa, Spain, Gaul in particular. So those are the 53 00:05:10.720 --> 00:05:15.920 challenges from the west to the east. One factor that had enabled the Eastern 54 00:05:15.000 --> 00:05:19.360 Roman Empire to surmount the crisis of the fifth century was that they had been 55 00:05:19.360 --> 00:05:25.199 abled the authorities there had been able to negotiate a detente with the Susanian Empire 56 00:05:25.199 --> 00:05:30.360 of Persia. Both the Persians and the East Romans are face a common foe 57 00:05:30.399 --> 00:05:33.360 in the Huns and so they cooperate against the Huns with one another. At 58 00:05:33.360 --> 00:05:38.240 the start of the sixth century, that peace with Persia suddenly breaks down when 59 00:05:38.240 --> 00:05:43.839 the Persian Shah Caabad launches what the Romans perceived to be a completely unprovoked attack 60 00:05:44.079 --> 00:05:48.000 on Roman territory in Syria. And getting the Persians out of Syria requires a 61 00:05:48.160 --> 00:05:54.360 massive mobilization of manpower and resources. So you have this growing cent of insecurity 62 00:05:54.399 --> 00:05:58.160 in Constantinople, resulting from an awareness that Roman power in the West is no 63 00:05:58.279 --> 00:06:01.600 more, and now this intense sense of insecurity across the lands of the Near 64 00:06:01.680 --> 00:06:08.079 East, which also plays into political conditions and content in Ople because many members 65 00:06:08.079 --> 00:06:11.439 of the Senate there own estates in the East. So I think you have 66 00:06:11.480 --> 00:06:14.759 this sort of this paradoxical position of what is still a great power. It's 67 00:06:14.759 --> 00:06:19.040 economy is booming, its population is rising, cities are growing, commerce is 68 00:06:19.120 --> 00:06:25.879 living, but in political terms, it feels increasingly constrained and challenged. Yeah, 69 00:06:25.920 --> 00:06:28.839 and I think one of the things that is always interesting about this era 70 00:06:29.160 --> 00:06:31.800 is that coming so close on the heels of the collapse of the West, 71 00:06:32.120 --> 00:06:35.360 you know, there has to be a question in the minds of a lot 72 00:06:35.360 --> 00:06:40.759 of people of is this a temporary situation, Is this a temporary reprieve for 73 00:06:40.879 --> 00:06:46.639 some Western territories, or is the Western Roman Empire gone forever? And the 74 00:06:46.720 --> 00:06:49.480 other thing worth pointing out here is, of course, just to remind the 75 00:06:49.519 --> 00:06:56.319 people who are listening at home, that we are talking about a geopolitical situation 76 00:06:56.839 --> 00:07:01.519 prior to the rise of Islam. So just bear that in mind as we're 77 00:07:01.519 --> 00:07:04.360 going forward here, that that is going to be a major shakeup that does 78 00:07:04.399 --> 00:07:10.199 come in the future, but post dates Justinian. Now, getting to Justinian 79 00:07:10.279 --> 00:07:17.279 more specifically for a second, he isn't someone that you would expect to come 80 00:07:17.319 --> 00:07:21.680 to power, certainly not in his early formative years, and the way that 81 00:07:21.720 --> 00:07:29.279 he does come to power is kind of interesting and leads to some interesting historical 82 00:07:29.360 --> 00:07:32.079 what ifs. So I was hoping you could kind of walk through a little 83 00:07:32.079 --> 00:07:38.839 bit of Justinian's background, his family, and how does he wind up being 84 00:07:39.000 --> 00:07:45.199 in this position of becoming arguably one of the most powerful men in the world. 85 00:07:46.120 --> 00:07:49.879 Yeah, so I think we have to wind back a bit to the 86 00:07:49.920 --> 00:07:54.800 middle of the fifth century. Justinian is born around the year four eight two, 87 00:07:54.839 --> 00:07:58.639 but we need to go back a little bit before that. So Justinian 88 00:07:58.800 --> 00:08:03.160 and his family really come from the regions the sort of south or southwest of 89 00:08:03.199 --> 00:08:09.360 the city of Nish Romans of Ignaisus in what's now sort of southern Serbia, 90 00:08:11.000 --> 00:08:13.600 and Justinian would later founder a city near the village where he claimed to have 91 00:08:13.639 --> 00:08:16.959 been born, the remains of which you can still see now. In the 92 00:08:18.000 --> 00:08:22.519 mid to late fifth century, this was really the Empire's sort of wild west, 93 00:08:24.240 --> 00:08:28.800 as a zone which had been subjected to massive military insecurity in the middle 94 00:08:28.879 --> 00:08:33.919 years the fifth century, subjected to Hunnic attacks and attacks by Goths. It 95 00:08:33.039 --> 00:08:39.879 clearly did enormous damage to the local infrastructure at the time when around the middle 96 00:08:39.879 --> 00:08:43.919 of the fifth century, this is probably a region where it's not clear who's 97 00:08:43.919 --> 00:08:48.039 in control. The Romans are claiming it, other barbarian groups are claiming it. 98 00:08:48.159 --> 00:08:52.399 It's probably a sort of no man's land where no one group is in 99 00:08:52.440 --> 00:08:58.080 total control, but where poverty is endemic. Disruption has been massive. Now 100 00:08:58.679 --> 00:09:05.559 just In Justinian's family are basically peasants. It would appear from the region around 101 00:09:05.279 --> 00:09:09.960 to the south of nis Natius, his uncle, and really the rise of 102 00:09:09.960 --> 00:09:13.799 the family begins with his uncle Justin, who later source tells us as a 103 00:09:13.799 --> 00:09:18.639 young man as a swineherd. Now, as with a lot of impoverished but 104 00:09:18.679 --> 00:09:22.840 ambitious young men, the young Justin wants out of the situation he finds himself, 105 00:09:22.399 --> 00:09:26.159 and probably around the year four seventy, he and a couple of friends 106 00:09:26.159 --> 00:09:31.879 of his decide to head to Constantinople. They go there on foot the hope 107 00:09:31.879 --> 00:09:37.799 of bettering their fortunes by joining the Imperial Army. Once in Constantinople, Justin 108 00:09:37.919 --> 00:09:43.559 is extraordinarily lucky in as he arrives at a moment when the authorities are overhauling 109 00:09:43.879 --> 00:09:48.440 the arrangements for the Palace Guard. Justin, we're told, is of striking 110 00:09:48.480 --> 00:09:52.480 appearance. He's tall, he's good looking, he's what you want standing outside 111 00:09:52.480 --> 00:09:58.360 the palace advertising imperial power. So he gets recruited into the new guards units 112 00:09:58.360 --> 00:10:03.759 in the Palace. So this suddenly project this swineherd from the Balkans into the 113 00:10:03.759 --> 00:10:07.679 center of imperial power in the greatest city in the known world. Justin is 114 00:10:07.720 --> 00:10:11.799 clearly a man of some talent. He rises up through the ranks and by 115 00:10:11.799 --> 00:10:13.799 the time he's in his sixties he's head of the Palace Guard, and he's 116 00:10:13.919 --> 00:10:18.720 quite an education of sorts. Through the army. He has a great career. 117 00:10:18.679 --> 00:10:24.240 He marries a loving wife, but they don't have kids, and so 118 00:10:24.279 --> 00:10:31.480 at some point it's probably, I would say, about four ninety Justin writes 119 00:10:31.480 --> 00:10:37.320 to his sister back home, suggested she send her son to Constantinople to be 120 00:10:37.440 --> 00:10:39.159 raised by Justin, and she does this. I think the boy is probably 121 00:10:39.200 --> 00:10:43.240 about eight, and his name is Petrus. Once in constant and this will 122 00:10:43.240 --> 00:10:48.279 be our Justinian, because once in Constantinople, Justin will give this boy an 123 00:10:48.360 --> 00:10:52.440 education, he will adopt him, giving him the name Petrus Eustinianus, where 124 00:10:52.440 --> 00:10:58.039 we get our Justinian from. And he then arranges for this boy to be 125 00:10:58.120 --> 00:11:01.799 recruited into the palace guards himself. So we have, as it were, 126 00:11:01.039 --> 00:11:07.960 a career that opens up to Justinian by virtue of Justin's childlessness. Phase one, 127 00:11:09.480 --> 00:11:13.440 Phase two round the five eighteen. In the five eighteen, the Emperor 128 00:11:13.399 --> 00:11:18.600 Anastasius is ailing and then dies, but he hasn't made arrangements for his succession, 129 00:11:18.720 --> 00:11:22.360 and there's a struggle for power at the palace court, and finally no 130 00:11:22.399 --> 00:11:26.399 one can agree on any between any of the obvious candidates, so they agree 131 00:11:26.399 --> 00:11:31.960 on Justin to be made emperor as a sort of compromise candidate in the expectation 132 00:11:31.000 --> 00:11:33.759 he's going to be around for much longer. He's in his late sixties now, 133 00:11:35.720 --> 00:11:39.879 So Justin becomes emperor, and that extraordinary step then opens the way for 134 00:11:39.039 --> 00:11:45.799 Justinian. Now Justin doesn't initially, as it were, a point Justinian's a 135 00:11:45.879 --> 00:11:48.279 very high office, but he gives the young man a stage on which to 136 00:11:48.320 --> 00:11:52.039 advance himself. And from that moment on, from the moment Justin is emperor, 137 00:11:52.279 --> 00:11:56.440 we see Justinian starting to try to prepare the way for his own rise 138 00:11:56.480 --> 00:12:01.200 to power, sidelining opponents, having at least one assassinated, it would appear 139 00:12:01.559 --> 00:12:05.600 I'm reaching out for allies in the church, on the streets of Constantinople, 140 00:12:05.639 --> 00:12:11.240 through the circusfactions like sports supporters clubs, reaching out for allies at court, 141 00:12:11.600 --> 00:12:16.759 and progressively he manages to persuade his uncle to appoint him to high and higher 142 00:12:16.840 --> 00:12:20.600 rank, until really, by the time Justin is drawing towards his death, 143 00:12:22.039 --> 00:12:26.039 Justinian has managed to get himself set in place as the heir apparent. So 144 00:12:26.080 --> 00:12:31.600 it's a series of strokes of good fortune for the family and Justinian matched with 145 00:12:31.840 --> 00:12:39.399 and matched by very careful preparation and politicking on Justinian's part once his uncle or 146 00:12:39.480 --> 00:12:45.480 father has become emperor. That's really interesting. One of the things that I 147 00:12:45.519 --> 00:12:52.559 find fascinating about both Roman history and Byzantine history is by looking at the individual 148 00:12:52.639 --> 00:12:56.080 emperors, and there seems to me, oftentimes, and I'm certainly not the 149 00:12:56.080 --> 00:13:00.960 only person who's ever argued this, that there's a great distinction and quality of 150 00:13:01.000 --> 00:13:05.679 emperors oftentimes between those who have to do something to obtain their position and those 151 00:13:05.720 --> 00:13:09.840 who are the quote unquote born to the purple. And I wanted I love 152 00:13:09.919 --> 00:13:13.559 that story, and it's important because I want to point out that even though 153 00:13:15.480 --> 00:13:20.240 Justinian does succeed justin he doesn't have to sure, he doesn't have to conquer 154 00:13:20.320 --> 00:13:22.840 the empire, doesn't have to win a civil war. But by no stretch 155 00:13:22.879 --> 00:13:28.399 of the imagination, was he is no, By no stretch of the imagination, 156 00:13:28.519 --> 00:13:31.519 is he committists. Okay, by no stretch of the imagination, is 157 00:13:31.559 --> 00:13:33.399 he sort of just born to this and this is something he's going to get. 158 00:13:33.759 --> 00:13:37.240 And that kind of brings me to my next question, which is an 159 00:13:37.240 --> 00:13:41.639 impossible question to answer, and I concede that at the outset, but it's 160 00:13:41.679 --> 00:13:45.080 a question that just comes up all the time, you know, whether whenever 161 00:13:45.120 --> 00:13:48.159 we're talking about pre modern individuals, people want to know, well, what 162 00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:50.519 were they like? You know, what was what was their personality like? 163 00:13:50.559 --> 00:13:54.799 You know, how did how did they behave? And of course we don't 164 00:13:54.799 --> 00:13:58.840 have any tweets from Justinian. We don't have any. I suppose they're not 165 00:14:00.120 --> 00:14:03.960 tweets anymore. Sorry, we don't have any. We don't have any video 166 00:14:05.200 --> 00:14:09.840 of him. But you know, we I think we could discern something of 167 00:14:09.879 --> 00:14:13.279 his personality. So I was hoping you could tell us all, you know, 168 00:14:13.320 --> 00:14:16.440 as much as you can. You know, what do we think Justinian 169 00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:20.960 was like as a person and as an emperor? Yeah? Unfortunately, because 170 00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:26.519 he leaves so much legal material behind in his own voice, and you know, 171 00:14:26.519 --> 00:14:31.080 we have reason to believe that bits of it are genuinely penned by the 172 00:14:31.120 --> 00:14:33.919 emperor, and we have theological tracts by him, and we have accounts of 173 00:14:35.000 --> 00:14:39.639 him from written by people who are close close to the center of imperial power. 174 00:14:39.960 --> 00:14:43.759 We can actually come away unusually with Justinian, with an emperor, become 175 00:14:43.759 --> 00:14:48.840 away the sense of emperor whose personality really does come across from the sources quite 176 00:14:48.919 --> 00:14:56.960 consistently. In particular, he's clearly a workaholic. He tells us that he 177 00:14:58.000 --> 00:15:01.639 works deep into the ninth night, and critics confirmed this. He has a 178 00:15:01.720 --> 00:15:07.919 constant urge to micro manage. When we look at legislation that's emerging from his 179 00:15:07.960 --> 00:15:11.200 court, it goes into the finest of detail on the levels of remuneration and 180 00:15:11.200 --> 00:15:16.919 command structures, on the very distant fringes of empires. He's sometimes been compared 181 00:15:18.600 --> 00:15:22.840 with Stalin compared to Stalin, and that of comparison is largely to do with 182 00:15:22.919 --> 00:15:28.679 this, this obsession with micro management. He has a fiery temper, and 183 00:15:28.799 --> 00:15:31.879 we see him losing his rag on a number of occasions, even with quite 184 00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:37.120 high ranking holy men and priests. He has a very prickly sense of his 185 00:15:37.159 --> 00:15:41.080 own dignity, which is partly informed by the fact that, as you alluded 186 00:15:41.120 --> 00:15:45.600 to, Okay, he is the son of someone who's become emperor, but 187 00:15:45.679 --> 00:15:52.360 the family's background is quite obscure. They're from quite an insignificant background. Surrounding 188 00:15:52.399 --> 00:15:58.440 him at court are lots of members are very prestigious Roman senatorial families, and 189 00:15:58.480 --> 00:16:04.039 his center of his own dignity and his sensitivity to being slighted is I think 190 00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:10.120 sharpened by that He's constantly in a hurry. Whether he's writing to the Pope 191 00:16:10.120 --> 00:16:15.440 about theology, or to his architects about constructions, or to his legal team 192 00:16:15.480 --> 00:16:18.559 about legal reform, he's constantly saying, hurry up, hurry up, hurry 193 00:16:18.639 --> 00:16:22.440 up. And then in terms of his own mindset, one thing that is 194 00:16:22.639 --> 00:16:27.519 a uniting thread from priority when he becomes emperor all the way to his dying 195 00:16:27.600 --> 00:16:33.799 days is he is fascinated by theology and obsessed with Christian doctrine in a way 196 00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:38.039 that's really very unusual. And I say we can trace this e long before 197 00:16:38.039 --> 00:16:41.960 his emperor. So when he is really just a guards officer at court, 198 00:16:42.840 --> 00:16:47.159 the nephew or adopted son of an emperor, but still not yet holding very 199 00:16:47.240 --> 00:16:49.759 high position, we see him writing to the Pope in Rome, trying to 200 00:16:49.759 --> 00:16:55.559 engage him in detailed doctrinal discussion. Now, this would have come across very 201 00:16:55.559 --> 00:16:59.120 strangely in Rome, and it's very unusual. I think that really gives us 202 00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:04.319 an in trusting insight into him. He has a romantic streak in that, 203 00:17:04.519 --> 00:17:10.359 rather like his uncle, he marries a wife. It would appear the empathy 204 00:17:10.400 --> 00:17:14.680 Adora. Really it's only explicable in terms of a love match. I mean, 205 00:17:15.079 --> 00:17:18.279 she is a very lowly background herself, and he could have required a 206 00:17:18.359 --> 00:17:22.920 much posture wife in court circles who would have been much more politically useful had 207 00:17:22.960 --> 00:17:26.680 he wanted to. And there are flashes of a sense of humor. I 208 00:17:26.680 --> 00:17:30.640 think I found one joke in the entirety of his legislation, and it's a 209 00:17:30.720 --> 00:17:33.640 very loyally joke. But you know, we don't have and I'm not aware 210 00:17:33.680 --> 00:17:37.839 of many other jokes. And Byzantine emperors as a ruler, he has enormous 211 00:17:37.839 --> 00:17:45.160 difficulty letting go or delegating responsibility, and perhaps tied into that, he has 212 00:17:44.920 --> 00:17:51.640 a tendency to exhaust those he works with, driven on by a very strong 213 00:17:51.799 --> 00:17:55.920 sense of moral purpose, which ties in to the theological interests as well. 214 00:17:56.200 --> 00:18:02.200 Yeah, when I picture the Emperor Justin he and I oftentimes picture someone. 215 00:18:02.319 --> 00:18:06.839 I mean, there's there's the famous mosaic from Ravenna, which is probably the 216 00:18:06.880 --> 00:18:11.559 image that just about everybody has when they think about Justinian. But I imagine 217 00:18:11.599 --> 00:18:18.400 someone meetings all day and then wanderings the halls of the palace, unable to 218 00:18:18.400 --> 00:18:22.720 sleep at night, consumed by thoughts of things going on in distant reaches of 219 00:18:22.759 --> 00:18:29.680 the empire, and it's it is remarkable the level of micromanaging that he attempts. 220 00:18:30.240 --> 00:18:33.799 And I say attempts because you know we are you know, this is 221 00:18:33.839 --> 00:18:37.519 the classical age. You know, a message travels as fast as a horse 222 00:18:37.559 --> 00:18:41.640 can ride or as fast as a ship can sail, so circumstances oftentimes may 223 00:18:41.640 --> 00:18:48.799 have changed dramatically by the time the message goes from wherever to Constantinople and then 224 00:18:48.799 --> 00:18:53.000 from Constantinople back. So to think that you're going to be able to send 225 00:18:55.160 --> 00:19:02.319 relevant orders is kind of an interesting theory for him to think. But I 226 00:19:02.359 --> 00:19:04.839 want to then ask a little bit about you. You talked about this about 227 00:19:06.839 --> 00:19:10.200 the rise of Sosanid Persia. Well not the rise, but you know, 228 00:19:10.279 --> 00:19:15.079 the breakdown of peaceful relations between you know, the Roman Empire slash Byzantine Empire 229 00:19:15.079 --> 00:19:21.640 and the Sosanids in the start of the sixth century. And Rome always has 230 00:19:21.720 --> 00:19:29.680 done typically well when it has peaceful relations with whatever permutation of the Persian Empire, 231 00:19:29.759 --> 00:19:32.279 it happens to be dealing with, whether it's the part the instance, 232 00:19:32.319 --> 00:19:37.200 sonets, so on and so forth, and tends to struggle more when it 233 00:19:37.319 --> 00:19:41.079 has to engage in military affairs. And I think to an extent this because 234 00:19:41.359 --> 00:19:45.839 you know, they're the only two quasi modern states. They're the only two 235 00:19:47.079 --> 00:19:52.440 states capable of marshaling the resources to engage in lengthy wars of conquest. Yeah. 236 00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:56.559 I mean you've got, you know, different tribal entities. You've got 237 00:19:56.559 --> 00:19:59.920 the Avars, You've got the Huns, who might from time to time strike, 238 00:20:00.680 --> 00:20:04.440 but you're not necessarily concerned that they're going to take large swaths of territory 239 00:20:04.480 --> 00:20:10.000 and hold it. That's not the case with Persia. You might legitimately lose 240 00:20:10.079 --> 00:20:12.200 Antioch and not be able to get it back. So that's a big, 241 00:20:12.240 --> 00:20:18.680 big, big problem. What does Justinian do as a way to try to 242 00:20:18.839 --> 00:20:25.519 confront this rising threat that's I suppose reignited in the East. Yeah. I 243 00:20:25.519 --> 00:20:30.079 think this is one of those areas where because the breakdown in relation to Persia 244 00:20:30.680 --> 00:20:36.599 predates Justinian's rise to power, one arguably has the highest degree of continuity between 245 00:20:36.640 --> 00:20:41.400 his reign and those of his immediate predecessors, not just his uncle Justin, 246 00:20:41.480 --> 00:20:45.599 but also Anastasius before him, under whom the war with Persia has re rupted. 247 00:20:47.240 --> 00:20:52.680 So broadly speaking, one distinguishes between the direct frontier zone between the East 248 00:20:52.759 --> 00:20:56.279 Roman Empire and Persia that's essentially the frontier between modern Syria and Irac at all 249 00:20:56.319 --> 00:21:00.920 intents and purposes, and then the zone into the butted to north and South 250 00:21:02.519 --> 00:21:07.960 Arabia and the Caucasus. In that direct frontier zone, Justinian follows in the 251 00:21:07.960 --> 00:21:14.839 footsteps of his predecessors in a massive program of investment in the defensive infrastructure of 252 00:21:14.880 --> 00:21:18.519 those eastern frontiers, of the Eastern Frontier, trying to achieve a measure of 253 00:21:18.720 --> 00:21:23.640 sort of defense in depth, trying to limit the damage that any marauding Persian 254 00:21:23.720 --> 00:21:30.480 foe can inflict if they break through into Roman territory that's very much continuity along 255 00:21:30.519 --> 00:21:34.640 the desert frontier. The problem the Romans have is that their desert frontier is 256 00:21:36.200 --> 00:21:41.519 very extensive and largely undefended, and so very prone to the Persians striking across 257 00:21:41.559 --> 00:21:52.119 the desert zone. So there Justinian affects the creation of a pro Roman Arab 258 00:21:52.279 --> 00:21:57.119 tribal confederacy known as the Jaffnids, who he will build up as agents of 259 00:21:57.160 --> 00:22:02.920 imperial influence in the region to try to block any ability on the past of 260 00:22:02.920 --> 00:22:06.720 the Persians to strike from that direction with their Arab allies, the Nazareth. 261 00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:11.599 This struggle for power between these two powers in Arabia will start to have increasingly 262 00:22:11.640 --> 00:22:18.240 pronounced consequences in the Arabian world itself, leading to much greater state formation and 263 00:22:18.319 --> 00:22:22.839 military development there, which is important for the background to Islam. Then heading 264 00:22:22.880 --> 00:22:26.200 north in the Caucasus, this is where in many ways, the strategic interests 265 00:22:26.240 --> 00:22:34.559 of the two empires most clash. Here we see Justinian crucially creating a new 266 00:22:34.640 --> 00:22:40.920 command structure, creating a new field army under a new general to take command 267 00:22:40.920 --> 00:22:47.039 of warfare in the Caucasus. We see him trying to use Christianity to extend 268 00:22:48.319 --> 00:22:52.000 imperial influence in the region, and also as Christianity is used to meet as 269 00:22:52.000 --> 00:22:56.720 a means of sort of cultural imperialism in the Caucasian zone and as people are 270 00:22:56.799 --> 00:23:03.200 drawn towards Concertinople that way, seeks to impose much more direct rule on those 271 00:23:03.200 --> 00:23:06.799 Caucasian territories where the Romans manage to get a toe hold. He tries to 272 00:23:06.799 --> 00:23:11.519 more fully integrate Armenian territories, he tries to impose direct rule and other frontier 273 00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:18.400 ones. So we have this combination of military tactics, diplomatic tactics, fortifications, 274 00:23:18.759 --> 00:23:22.480 but also in terms of diplomacy, especially later in his reign, he 275 00:23:22.559 --> 00:23:29.200 will really play upon a key feature of the Susanian Empire. The Sasanians perceive 276 00:23:29.279 --> 00:23:33.559 themselves to be massively vulnerable to attack from the world of the Eurasian step the 277 00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:41.079 stretches out east towards China. At Hanik attacks in preceding centuries had done massive 278 00:23:41.119 --> 00:23:45.599 harm to the Sasanians. So every time the Persians appeared to be under pressure 279 00:23:45.799 --> 00:23:51.160 from a nomadic foe, just in An intervenes to try to extract greater concessions 280 00:23:51.200 --> 00:23:53.960 from the Persians. And we see him deploying that strategy, I said, 281 00:23:55.000 --> 00:23:57.240 particularly at the end of his reign, but it is a theme throughout when 282 00:23:57.279 --> 00:24:02.559 he engages with the great superpower rival East. Yeah, it's interesting. You 283 00:24:02.599 --> 00:24:04.359 know a lot of times, you know, I'll listen to people who are 284 00:24:04.440 --> 00:24:07.400 very critical of the Byzantine Empire, and I'm just going to use that term 285 00:24:07.480 --> 00:24:11.240 for just to draw a distinction between that and the unified Roman Empire for the 286 00:24:11.279 --> 00:24:15.559 purposes of right now. Who are very critical of the Byzantine Empire for being 287 00:24:15.559 --> 00:24:19.400 oh they're too diplomatic as opposed to you know, you're the power of the 288 00:24:19.519 --> 00:24:22.680 of the Roman legions, you know, marching across the world, which I 289 00:24:22.759 --> 00:24:26.920 think that ignores a couple of things. First of all, war is uncertain, 290 00:24:26.799 --> 00:24:30.599 you know, there's there's no indication that if you go to battle that 291 00:24:30.599 --> 00:24:33.279 you're going to win, especially with an evenly matched opponent. And second of 292 00:24:33.279 --> 00:24:38.039 all, let's just face it, wars are kind of expensive, and diplomacy 293 00:24:38.119 --> 00:24:41.240 is a lot cheaper, and it's a lot cheaper to get someone else to 294 00:24:41.240 --> 00:24:45.160 fight your war for you if you can't. Certainly, as you point out, 295 00:24:47.519 --> 00:24:53.160 Justinian's intervention with the tribal peoples of the Arabian Peninsula is going to to 296 00:24:53.160 --> 00:24:59.920 some extent facilitate the Arab explosion of military expansion that's going to come later on. 297 00:25:00.079 --> 00:25:02.039 He didn't know that at the time. And I'm not going to sit 298 00:25:02.079 --> 00:25:06.119 here and Monday morning quarterback him from thousands of years ago. I don't think 299 00:25:06.160 --> 00:25:14.160 that's worth you just raised about the Justinian is perfectly willing when he deems it 300 00:25:14.240 --> 00:25:18.880 appropriate to buy peace with Persia through massive diplomatic subsidies. And there is an 301 00:25:18.880 --> 00:25:22.960 interesting correlation I've spotted before in the sixth century whereby because Justinian is, in 302 00:25:22.039 --> 00:25:26.319 terms of his career structure, a military man is in the palace guards. 303 00:25:26.319 --> 00:25:30.160 That's the sort of the mindset is inculcated with. In general terms, it 304 00:25:30.200 --> 00:25:34.519 tends to be in the sixth and seventh centuries, Roman emperors or byz Antine 305 00:25:34.519 --> 00:25:40.039 emperors of military background who are most willing to pay for peace. Is the 306 00:25:40.079 --> 00:25:45.319 civilian emperors who's as it were, political base, are most anxious about their 307 00:25:45.359 --> 00:25:48.599 tax money being given away to barbarians who are most inclined to be aggressive on 308 00:25:48.640 --> 00:25:53.559 that front and to prefer war over diplomatic subsidies. And that's a very interesting 309 00:25:53.559 --> 00:25:59.279 correlation, and Justinian very much fits into that model. As you said, 310 00:25:59.279 --> 00:26:02.559 the military have a great appreciation of the dangers of war once it kicks off. 311 00:26:02.759 --> 00:26:03.680 Yeah, I mean, it's true. It's it's also true. I 312 00:26:03.720 --> 00:26:07.880 mean, if you even want to look at more modern history of most of 313 00:26:07.000 --> 00:26:12.440 most American presidents who have engaged in most of the major conflicts are not the 314 00:26:12.480 --> 00:26:18.599 military presidents. They're they're not there. They tend to be the civilian president. 315 00:26:18.680 --> 00:26:21.960 So it is interesting that and I think that that's that is a theme 316 00:26:22.000 --> 00:26:26.359 that kind of runs throughout much of history, is that people who have engaged 317 00:26:26.359 --> 00:26:30.839 in combat are much less willing to roll the dice on other people's lives than 318 00:26:30.839 --> 00:26:34.160 those who have not, which I suppose makes sense from just a practical standpoint. 319 00:26:34.799 --> 00:26:37.039 But and and not to jump around a bit, but I want to 320 00:26:37.039 --> 00:26:41.640 make sure that we do cover all aspects of Justinian. So I want to 321 00:26:41.680 --> 00:26:45.440 ask about the law code for a moment, because his roles as a law 322 00:26:45.559 --> 00:26:53.759 maker are really unprecedented in a lot of ways and incredibly dramatic. And I 323 00:26:53.920 --> 00:26:57.400 wonder if maybe, if you want to look at, you know, long 324 00:26:57.519 --> 00:27:04.680 term contributions to society, if maybe this isn't the most important contribution that Justinian 325 00:27:06.039 --> 00:27:11.079 bequeaths to sort of the Western world. Is this incredible law revision that he 326 00:27:11.200 --> 00:27:15.319 undertakes. So I wondered if you could talk about that, about what is 327 00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:21.640 he seeking to accomplish by this, and just how big of a project are 328 00:27:21.680 --> 00:27:27.680 we talking about here. There are two aspects to Justinian as a law giver 329 00:27:29.480 --> 00:27:32.000 which we have to think about, both of which are very important, and 330 00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:36.559 they're interconnected. First of all, Justinian as codifile. Now when it comes 331 00:27:36.599 --> 00:27:41.119 to power, the problem is there's just so much legal material in circulation that 332 00:27:41.200 --> 00:27:45.960 it's very hard to work out what the law on any given situation is. 333 00:27:45.519 --> 00:27:48.680 And this is sort of recipe for chaos. I mean, the reason for 334 00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:55.319 this is that Roman law is inherited by Justinian, has different sources of law 335 00:27:55.480 --> 00:27:59.440 and different sources of legal authority. So you have laws issued by emperors. 336 00:28:00.039 --> 00:28:04.720 You also have in circulation extensive legal writings by legal scholars from earlier centuries which 337 00:28:04.759 --> 00:28:10.279 can be cited in court and an interpretation. Now, an effort had been 338 00:28:10.279 --> 00:28:14.920 made earlier in the fifth century to impose some order on laws issued buy emperors, 339 00:28:15.799 --> 00:28:18.240 and you have the collation of the so called Theodosian Code in the early 340 00:28:18.240 --> 00:28:21.960 fifth century. But since then many more laws have been issued by the subsequent 341 00:28:21.960 --> 00:28:25.440 emperors, so again that problem has returned. There's just a lot of legal 342 00:28:25.519 --> 00:28:30.640 enactments. Sometimes they're contradictory. How do you decide between which laws? An 343 00:28:30.640 --> 00:28:34.680 attempt had also been made to try to give priority to some legal scholars and 344 00:28:34.680 --> 00:28:40.000 their writings over others. But even in terms of those given precedents, you're 345 00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:44.880 still talking about, you know, sort of around three million lines of Latin 346 00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:48.880 text or two thousand volumes. So this is a huge, massive material for 347 00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:53.319 people to try to marshal when deciding the law. Now, Justinian decides very 348 00:28:53.359 --> 00:28:59.119 early on in his reign to impose order on this situation and to edit and 349 00:28:59.200 --> 00:29:03.160 boil down the legal texts so as to express a single unified opinion and will 350 00:29:03.319 --> 00:29:07.000 presented as that of Justinian. And it's a sign of how successful he and 351 00:29:07.079 --> 00:29:11.880 his commissioners are that it's almost impossible for us to really work out in any 352 00:29:11.920 --> 00:29:15.359 detail now what Roman law was like before they got to work, because they're 353 00:29:15.400 --> 00:29:18.200 so good, as it were, air gushing out what they don't approve of. 354 00:29:19.519 --> 00:29:22.880 So we have, first of all, the order five two eight, 355 00:29:23.039 --> 00:29:27.240 a year after it comes to power to issue his own codex replacing the Theodosian 356 00:29:27.279 --> 00:29:34.839 Code in reforming all the inherited legislation issued by emperors to express a single unified 357 00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:40.640 will and model, as it were, removing contradictions and not have you. 358 00:29:41.039 --> 00:29:45.640 That initially completed by five two nine, although there's signs that his law commissions 359 00:29:45.640 --> 00:29:48.079 have done it in too much of a hurry, because he's been urging them 360 00:29:48.079 --> 00:29:52.079 onto aggressively, and they end up having to produce a second version in five 361 00:29:52.160 --> 00:29:56.079 to three four. But then more extraordinarily, he does try something which no 362 00:29:56.119 --> 00:30:02.480 one had ever tried before, which was to impose order on this swirling mass 363 00:30:02.559 --> 00:30:06.400 of jurisdic opinions written by the legal scholars, the so called jurist consults, 364 00:30:06.920 --> 00:30:11.880 and in an extraordinary program between five thirty and five to three three, his 365 00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:19.079 law commissioners go through these inherited legal texts and reduce them by ninety five percent 366 00:30:19.559 --> 00:30:26.920 to create this extraordinarily condensed version of Roman legal thinking which can be used more 367 00:30:26.960 --> 00:30:30.480 readily alongside the laws of the Codex. Now it's still a massive work when 368 00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:34.200 it emerges. I mean, Justinian's Digest is still one and a half times 369 00:30:34.200 --> 00:30:38.839 to size the Bible. But it's an extraordinary achievement. And Justinian tells us 370 00:30:38.880 --> 00:30:44.440 when he started giving instructions that it be put into effect, the compilation to 371 00:30:44.519 --> 00:30:48.440 Digest. Many said it was impossible, others say it would take ten years. 372 00:30:48.759 --> 00:30:52.519 His law commissioners get it done into three. At the same time, 373 00:30:52.640 --> 00:30:56.200 they also produce a new legal textbook, the Institute, which is like a 374 00:30:56.240 --> 00:30:59.960 map of the law, showing how these different bits of the law and Roman 375 00:31:00.039 --> 00:31:04.640 law as a system cohere and operate. So that's the codification, and that 376 00:31:04.720 --> 00:31:11.559 is the form then in which Roman law will be received by subsequent European societies. 377 00:31:11.920 --> 00:31:15.759 And really it's the common law of Europe until Napoleon iss used his own 378 00:31:15.799 --> 00:31:22.319 code in the nineteenth century. But at the same time he's also issuing an 379 00:31:22.519 --> 00:31:26.599 enormous amount of legislation himself. And once again here we see his real interest 380 00:31:26.599 --> 00:31:30.960 in the law long before he comes across his chief legal officer, Trebonian, 381 00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:34.039 who relies upon for the codification to a great extent. And we see this 382 00:31:34.039 --> 00:31:38.279 from the fact, for example, that you know Justin the first his uncle 383 00:31:38.599 --> 00:31:44.160 wasn't a lazy administrator or a lazy emperor. But we have this period of 384 00:31:44.240 --> 00:31:51.480 five months during which Justinian is co emperor alongside Justin, because Justin is now 385 00:31:51.519 --> 00:31:56.480 ailing, and it is a remarkable fact that a third of all the laws 386 00:31:56.519 --> 00:32:00.759 we have from Justin's reign are issued during those five months when Justinian has managed 387 00:32:00.759 --> 00:32:07.240 to get himself alongside in power in his eight and a half year reign. 388 00:32:07.680 --> 00:32:10.160 For his eight and a half year reign, we have about thirty laws that 389 00:32:10.240 --> 00:32:15.440 survived from Justin as emperor. For the first eight years of Justinian's reign we 390 00:32:15.519 --> 00:32:22.279 have over four hundred. I mean, the pace of legislation just skyrockets, 391 00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:28.480 and we see him intervening on almost every aspect of life as lived in Roman 392 00:32:28.519 --> 00:32:32.400 society at this time. He's codifying the Roman law of marriage, he's christianizing 393 00:32:32.440 --> 00:32:37.960 it. Every aspect really is addressed, and he starts to push Roman legal 394 00:32:38.079 --> 00:32:45.119 thinking in fundamentally new directions which are also going to lay the foundations for really 395 00:32:45.119 --> 00:32:49.640 Byzantine law, which has very different conceptions of things like the family, for 396 00:32:49.680 --> 00:32:52.400 example, as compared to classical Roman law. And this is something emerging from 397 00:32:52.759 --> 00:33:00.279 Justinian's court during this extraordinary period of legal activism. Yeah. Interesting is as 398 00:33:00.319 --> 00:33:05.400 you're talking, you know, I don't want to like, no, I 399 00:33:05.440 --> 00:33:09.279 don't want to call other like previous Roman emperors or Byzantine emperors lazy, but 400 00:33:09.759 --> 00:33:16.000 certainly by comparison to Justinian, most people look like, what are you doing 401 00:33:16.119 --> 00:33:21.599 taking Saturdays and Sundays off? You know, he's he works NonStop and this 402 00:33:21.640 --> 00:33:27.039 is the sort of project that only somebody who has this level of sort of 403 00:33:27.119 --> 00:33:31.240 dedication to the state and to state craft is going to be able to undertake. 404 00:33:32.200 --> 00:33:37.519 And it's just if you take nothing else away from this conversation today, 405 00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:43.359 just remember that when you think about European common law to an extend American common 406 00:33:43.400 --> 00:33:45.759 laws, of course we adopt English common law as well. You know, 407 00:33:45.920 --> 00:33:51.400 it forms the basis it comes from Justinian. Justinian, like you say, 408 00:33:51.440 --> 00:33:54.599 we don't really have a sense of what Roman law was prior to this point 409 00:33:54.640 --> 00:34:01.400 because of the massive reorganization and restructuring, to an extent streamlining of everything that 410 00:34:01.480 --> 00:34:06.400 we have. I mean, that's a huge takeaway. Another one that I 411 00:34:06.400 --> 00:34:13.519 want to ask about is Isosophia, which, of course the massive church constructed 412 00:34:13.599 --> 00:34:15.320 net today. Of course it's all I think it's actually a museum, or 413 00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:20.000 maybe it's a mosque. I get, oh, it's a mosque again. 414 00:34:20.039 --> 00:34:23.119 Okay, thank you. I know that it had gone both ways. So 415 00:34:24.360 --> 00:34:35.159 but I think it's you know, to to understand what someone would have experienced 416 00:34:35.920 --> 00:34:40.119 in the sixth century visiting this site, I think is just almost mind blowing. 417 00:34:40.440 --> 00:34:45.760 You write the book it's nothing less than miraculous the construction of this building. 418 00:34:46.400 --> 00:34:49.719 And I wanted you to break that down for a second because I think 419 00:34:49.760 --> 00:34:53.719 after reading that your chapter or section of the book on the Isosophia, I 420 00:34:53.760 --> 00:34:58.880 came away with that exact same word miraculous. This is nothing less than a 421 00:34:58.960 --> 00:35:02.159 miracle, and I think people in that time period would have seen it that 422 00:35:02.280 --> 00:35:09.639 way too. So what is it that makes the construction of Isophia so miraculous, 423 00:35:12.400 --> 00:35:15.039 well, I think for those worshiping within it. And this is something 424 00:35:15.119 --> 00:35:19.360 very hard to really appreciate when you go and visit the modern the building its 425 00:35:19.360 --> 00:35:23.679 current state, not the modern building in its current state due to the number 426 00:35:23.719 --> 00:35:30.000 of windows. What have you been blocked out? Is that Agasophia, as 427 00:35:30.360 --> 00:35:38.440 reconstructed by Justinian after the nikobriots, is an extraordinary combination of acoustic engineering and 428 00:35:38.599 --> 00:35:49.119 lighting engineering, and as it were, it's attempts to create a total sensor 429 00:35:49.119 --> 00:35:52.480 you experience for the worshiper. And we've become more and more aware of this 430 00:35:52.480 --> 00:35:59.000 thanks to fantastic work being done by acoustic engineers and also by musicologists such as 431 00:35:59.000 --> 00:36:04.280 the group who in the US and of Capella Romana have done amazing work reconstructing 432 00:36:04.280 --> 00:36:07.760 the liturgy of the Great Church at its heights. And when you draw these 433 00:36:07.760 --> 00:36:13.079 things together, you get a real sense of the very careful, the extraordinary 434 00:36:13.760 --> 00:36:19.119 evocation of the numinous which the authorities are aiming at and which they achieve, 435 00:36:19.280 --> 00:36:24.559 because even Justinian's critics like Procopious emphasize this. Then beyond that, in terms 436 00:36:24.599 --> 00:36:29.800 of how people would have understood it as a sort of miraculous structure. I 437 00:36:29.840 --> 00:36:34.519 think you know you've touched upon the two crucial ones. It is the extraordinary 438 00:36:34.559 --> 00:36:38.679 speed with which it is constructed to start off with, I mean it's destroyed 439 00:36:38.760 --> 00:36:44.039 during the n The old Hagiasophia is destroyed during the nikerriot of January five to 440 00:36:44.119 --> 00:36:51.719 three two. The new Hagiosophia is formally inaugurated barely five years later, December 441 00:36:51.719 --> 00:36:54.480 five three seven. Now you compare that to the length of time it would 442 00:36:54.480 --> 00:36:58.760 take to build medieval cathedrals in the West, and you get a cent of 443 00:36:58.760 --> 00:37:04.519 how staggering that is. It's a gargantuan mobilization of manpower and resources. Later, 444 00:37:04.559 --> 00:37:07.840 Byzantine observers would assume that there was the work of a miracle, the 445 00:37:07.000 --> 00:37:10.840 Justinian be given the design by an angel. They claim that ten thousand workmen 446 00:37:10.880 --> 00:37:15.400 were required and that it cost the equivalent equivalent of a year's tax revenues from 447 00:37:15.480 --> 00:37:19.880 Egypt. Now those aren't necessarily real figures, but they're giving you a sense 448 00:37:19.920 --> 00:37:25.280 of how Byzantines understood the scale of the project. The speed is something really 449 00:37:25.280 --> 00:37:30.519 worth emphasizing, though, because in order to construct it, Justinian has to 450 00:37:30.639 --> 00:37:34.119 ransack the cities of the Near East to get the building materials, which is 451 00:37:34.119 --> 00:37:37.159 why actually it's a bit hotchpodg inside. You know some you know, not 452 00:37:37.239 --> 00:37:39.320 all the columns are the same length, and some have had to be sort 453 00:37:39.320 --> 00:37:43.159 of doubled up and what have you. It's you can see one again, 454 00:37:43.159 --> 00:37:45.679 the Justinian's always in a hurry, and you see that actually in the internal 455 00:37:45.719 --> 00:37:51.519 construction of Hagia Sophia. But its scale is also exceptional. I mean, 456 00:37:51.840 --> 00:37:55.119 the internal height of it, beneath the central dome is equivalent to a fifteen 457 00:37:55.159 --> 00:38:00.480 story building. It would be the largest domed construction anywhere in the world until 458 00:38:00.519 --> 00:38:05.440 the sixteenth century. And it is domed. I mean, no Roman emperor 459 00:38:05.760 --> 00:38:09.639 had ever attempted to build a domed structure on this scale. And this really 460 00:38:10.079 --> 00:38:19.280 clearly pushes his engineers to the absolute limits of their knowledge and their technical capacity. 461 00:38:19.719 --> 00:38:22.960 And once again, I think, both in his architecture and to some 462 00:38:22.079 --> 00:38:25.320 extent in his lawmaking and in some of his military endeavors, I mean, 463 00:38:25.360 --> 00:38:30.639 he really pushes those under him to the maximum, sometimes up to and just 464 00:38:30.679 --> 00:38:35.599 beyond what they're really capable of. Yeah, and at the speed, by 465 00:38:35.639 --> 00:38:37.239 the way, for those who want me to put this into context, for 466 00:38:37.280 --> 00:38:40.639 you for a second, and some of this is a little hyperboleep, but 467 00:38:40.880 --> 00:38:45.159 you know, Notre Dame took about two hundred years. You know, if 468 00:38:45.159 --> 00:38:49.960 you want to go from beginning to end by comparison to five for this, 469 00:38:51.320 --> 00:38:52.360 I mean, if you want to talk about miracle, yeah, I mean 470 00:38:52.360 --> 00:39:00.159 it would seem like it would be conceivable for someone in the military, perhaps 471 00:39:00.239 --> 00:39:02.719 a noble to be away from the city for five years and come back and 472 00:39:02.760 --> 00:39:09.519 it's done. And that I mean that in terms of pre modern building capacity, 473 00:39:09.639 --> 00:39:14.400 that's unheard of. That's just simply unheard of for a project of this 474 00:39:14.559 --> 00:39:19.199 scale and shape. And again, I think gives us an indication of Justinian's 475 00:39:19.239 --> 00:39:24.480 personality and his drive to see this project finished. Not twenty years from now, 476 00:39:24.800 --> 00:39:28.639 right now. I want it done today, and that's when we're gonna 477 00:39:28.639 --> 00:39:30.840 get it done. All right, Let's talk about the West, because you 478 00:39:30.880 --> 00:39:36.559 know, most people are when they think Justinian, are gonna think Belisadius and 479 00:39:37.159 --> 00:39:42.440 his efforts to reconquer the lost Roman territories in the West. And it starts 480 00:39:42.440 --> 00:39:47.320 with North Africa and is kind of shockingly I suppose, or maybe it's maybe 481 00:39:47.320 --> 00:39:52.679 surprisingly easily successful. But you know, to start, you know what gets 482 00:39:53.400 --> 00:39:59.440 Justinian involved in North Africa, because it would seem like he has plenty on 483 00:39:59.519 --> 00:40:05.280 his plate with the Sosani Empire. Yeah, in North Africa, just by 484 00:40:05.280 --> 00:40:07.639 way of a bit of background, had fallen to this group of Vandals in 485 00:40:07.679 --> 00:40:13.199 the fifth century Carthage, fall to them in four three nine, and they 486 00:40:13.280 --> 00:40:17.639 establish a very prosperous and very it will appear stable kingdom initially. Now, 487 00:40:19.559 --> 00:40:22.840 the Romans had last attempted to intervene there in four six' eight, when 488 00:40:22.880 --> 00:40:27.280 an imperial fleet had been destroyed by the fireships of the Vandal king. Geiseric 489 00:40:27.800 --> 00:40:31.719 Byzantine armada is wiped out, and now after the Byzantine policy is one of 490 00:40:31.719 --> 00:40:35.880 positive engagement really in so far as they can. But as I think a 491 00:40:35.960 --> 00:40:39.960 sense in which the authorities in Constantinople are always minded to intervene in Africa if 492 00:40:40.000 --> 00:40:44.960 they get the chance. One reason is because it's so prosperous. So the 493 00:40:45.039 --> 00:40:47.280 landscape of North Africa is good for tax revenues if you can get it back. 494 00:40:49.000 --> 00:40:52.360 Second, the Vandals have a major fleet, and that can pose a 495 00:40:52.440 --> 00:40:55.519 threat to East Roman continuing control of the sea lanes of the Central and the 496 00:40:55.519 --> 00:41:02.480 Eastern Mediterranean should that be a problem. And lastly, the Vandals are followers 497 00:41:02.679 --> 00:41:07.320 of a fourth century churchman called Arius, who was regarded as a heretic in 498 00:41:07.320 --> 00:41:14.320 Constantinople. And there are constant reports of the members of the Imperial the so 499 00:41:14.400 --> 00:41:17.960 called Catholic or Orthodox Church, being persecuted at the hands of the Aryan Vandal 500 00:41:19.000 --> 00:41:22.440 authorities. So you have all these reasons for Byzantin to be minded perhaps to 501 00:41:22.480 --> 00:41:30.719 intervene should the opportunity arise. Now Justinian has courted previously the heir to the 502 00:41:30.800 --> 00:41:35.239 Vandal throne, a certain Kilderic could come to power in five to two three, 503 00:41:35.559 --> 00:41:38.320 and under whom the treatment of the Catholic clergy seems to improve, and 504 00:41:38.360 --> 00:41:45.199 we start seeing a diplomatic tilt back towards Constantinople. But Kilderic is not a 505 00:41:45.320 --> 00:41:49.800 very militarily effective king, and in these early medieval societies in the West, 506 00:41:50.079 --> 00:41:55.440 military effectiveness is the key requirement for good kingship. And eventually, by virtue 507 00:41:55.519 --> 00:42:00.880 of his military failings in five point thirty he has brought down by his cousin 508 00:42:00.239 --> 00:42:06.760 Gelimer, and we start seeing signs of tension and of this kingdom starting to 509 00:42:07.239 --> 00:42:13.159 fragment. The governor of Sardinia casts off Vandal overlordship there's revolved by the Romans 510 00:42:13.360 --> 00:42:19.000 in Tripoli. So this gives Justinian an opportunity and a pretext to intervene, 511 00:42:19.559 --> 00:42:22.480 but interestingly he doesn't do so then in five point thirty. Instead, the 512 00:42:22.480 --> 00:42:27.840 intervention only comes after, first of all, a peace has been negotiated with 513 00:42:27.920 --> 00:42:30.719 Persia in five to three to two, and also in the aftermath of the 514 00:42:30.760 --> 00:42:37.119 Niker riots, when Justin has almost been deposed from the throne in an outbreak 515 00:42:37.119 --> 00:42:39.880 of rioting which members of the Senate appear to have tried to take advantage of 516 00:42:40.039 --> 00:42:45.519 to depose the Emperor, his legal activism actually being a source of enormous anxiety 517 00:42:45.559 --> 00:42:50.840 to them. So I think on one level, the intervention there is driven 518 00:42:50.960 --> 00:42:57.639 by both an opportunity provided by political instability in the Vandal kingdom combined with now 519 00:42:57.679 --> 00:43:01.079 a need to try to rebuild the police call credibility of the regime at home 520 00:43:01.480 --> 00:43:06.880 by making an opportunistic formay to the West. So I think that explains the 521 00:43:06.920 --> 00:43:14.559 timing of it. An opportunistic is kind of the right word here in Justinian, 522 00:43:14.599 --> 00:43:17.159 and we'll talk about this at the end. You can be criticized in 523 00:43:17.199 --> 00:43:22.639 these efforts to reconquer parts of the West, and that well does he deplete 524 00:43:22.679 --> 00:43:29.920 resources needed to actually counteract Persia in their assassenods in the east in order to 525 00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:36.880 try to reconquer parts of the empire that cannot really be reincorporated. But to 526 00:43:36.920 --> 00:43:44.599 an extent, if you are looking at where can we be militarily successful for 527 00:43:45.199 --> 00:43:52.639 the least cost, certainly the Vandal Kingdom of North Africa looks much more like 528 00:43:52.679 --> 00:43:57.519 an easy target compared to the Sosanids to the east by a million stretches of 529 00:43:57.519 --> 00:44:00.960 the imagination, and they proved to be. The other thing that is always 530 00:44:00.960 --> 00:44:07.679 worth remembering is that we have to disabuse ourselves of what comes to mind when 531 00:44:07.719 --> 00:44:13.559 we picture North Africa right now, because what we picture North Africa right now 532 00:44:13.559 --> 00:44:17.840 would have not been what North Africa was like during this time period. It 533 00:44:17.880 --> 00:44:22.719 was much more agriculturally productive, much more fertile. It would have been a 534 00:44:22.920 --> 00:44:29.519 useful portion of the empire to add it back and bring it back into the 535 00:44:29.599 --> 00:44:36.360 Roman sphere of influence. Belis Adius is dispatched under as you indicate, and 536 00:44:36.679 --> 00:44:43.960 is successful in winning a pitched battle against the Vandal Kingdom and essentially toppling it 537 00:44:44.000 --> 00:44:49.639 over. But I always wonder about this because I think sometimes maps can be 538 00:44:49.719 --> 00:44:52.320 misleading, especially at certain points. You put this big color on the map 539 00:44:52.360 --> 00:44:55.800 and you say this is Rome, and this is not Rome, and so 540 00:44:55.960 --> 00:45:00.639 Rome has control over this. But the question that I want to ask use 541 00:45:00.679 --> 00:45:07.239 even after North Africa is i'll say, reincorporated into the Byzantine sphere of influence, 542 00:45:07.280 --> 00:45:10.239 brought back into the Roman fold. To what extent is that true? 543 00:45:10.239 --> 00:45:14.119 Because I think you did a nice job in the book of sort of outlining 544 00:45:14.400 --> 00:45:19.559 you know, how firm is Roman control once it's re established in this area 545 00:45:19.760 --> 00:45:23.719 compared to you know, some areas that are much much closer to Constantinople. 546 00:45:25.800 --> 00:45:30.840 The emphasis from the start, and I think this probably gives one the sense 547 00:45:30.840 --> 00:45:36.920 of the core strategic objectives appears to have been very much on controlling the cities 548 00:45:37.000 --> 00:45:43.679 of the coastal zone along the Mediterranean coastline and their immediate hinterlands, which were 549 00:45:43.800 --> 00:45:50.800 agriculturally extremely productive, and also on controlling the key islands of the western and 550 00:45:50.880 --> 00:45:54.639 central Mediterranean which the Vandals had also controlled, such as Sardinia and the bally 551 00:45:54.719 --> 00:46:00.920 Arics. They're really not that interested in the areas beyond that. These sort 552 00:46:00.960 --> 00:46:07.159 of the hinterlands of the old Vandal Kingdom where the Vandals had confronted various bear 553 00:46:07.199 --> 00:46:12.840 bear war lords. So as a result, during the course of both the 554 00:46:12.840 --> 00:46:19.440 wars and then the Roman reoccupation, really was seeing ongoing bear bear encroachment coming 555 00:46:19.440 --> 00:46:24.159 in from the tribal zone of Mauritania and Numidia beyond. But that the main 556 00:46:24.199 --> 00:46:29.480 focus is on the most taxable territory, the coastal territory and the islands are 557 00:46:29.480 --> 00:46:34.239 a crucial for pinning down once more control of the Mediterranean. It's also worth 558 00:46:34.239 --> 00:46:39.239 emphasizing that as you say that really it's the defeat of the Vandal kingdom, 559 00:46:39.800 --> 00:46:45.360 it really centers on the defeat in battle then ultimately the capture of the Vandal 560 00:46:45.440 --> 00:46:49.119 king. In the early medieval West you see the emergence of these sort of 561 00:46:49.199 --> 00:46:53.199 king focused societies where if you can capture the king in a political sense, 562 00:46:53.239 --> 00:46:57.639 you have the kingdom as we see most obviously, the best example would be 563 00:46:57.840 --> 00:47:00.280 what happens to England in ten sixty six with the Omans. Same thing really 564 00:47:00.320 --> 00:47:05.199 with with Howld. So he's taking advantage of the sort of new dynamics of 565 00:47:05.239 --> 00:47:10.760 power that have emerged in the West in order to achieve this result, and 566 00:47:10.800 --> 00:47:15.440 then you know, it goes further, and you know, Justinian has this 567 00:47:16.239 --> 00:47:21.280 I'll say, you know, ace up his sleeve. He's got this general 568 00:47:21.320 --> 00:47:25.719 by the name of Belisarius, who is unbelievably effective in the field, like 569 00:47:27.000 --> 00:47:32.320 just just incredible, and in short order is able to then move from eventually 570 00:47:32.360 --> 00:47:37.239 North Africa to Sicily, to southern Italy, to Rome and to Ravenna. 571 00:47:37.320 --> 00:47:45.320 And that's just a remarkable sort of a series of military achievements in such a 572 00:47:45.360 --> 00:47:50.679 short period of time. And I'm just kind of curious if you could speak 573 00:47:50.719 --> 00:47:54.159 to that for a second, because I've always wondered about this military campaign. 574 00:47:54.519 --> 00:48:00.320 You know, to what extent was this part of an overarching strategy, or 575 00:48:00.360 --> 00:48:05.519 to what extent was this just simply byzantine opportunism, To what extent was this 576 00:48:05.760 --> 00:48:08.519 just I can't believe we keep winning, but we keep winning easily. So 577 00:48:08.719 --> 00:48:13.360 let's just keep rolling the dice. You know, where where do we end 578 00:48:13.440 --> 00:48:17.760 up on that spectrum? Here? Yes, I think it's I don't think 579 00:48:17.800 --> 00:48:22.960 that Justinian comes to power, as it were, with a plan to reconquer 580 00:48:22.960 --> 00:48:27.280 the Western Roman Empire. There's one moment in one law at the height of 581 00:48:27.320 --> 00:48:30.000 ambition in five fee five, where he raises that prospect. But I think 582 00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:35.599 he's probably getting a bit over excited there. I think what we see is 583 00:48:35.679 --> 00:48:38.960 much more piecemeal, much more opportunistic. But his policies in the West are 584 00:48:39.079 --> 00:48:45.719 always united by common analysis of power, which is understanding that these kingdoms in 585 00:48:45.719 --> 00:48:51.639 the West are always vulnerable when there is a succession dispute, or a dispute 586 00:48:51.679 --> 00:48:54.280 over the military effectiveness of the ruler. It's this king focused nature again. 587 00:48:54.599 --> 00:48:59.800 Now, the same circums, very similar circumstances that had arisen in Africa that 588 00:49:00.000 --> 00:49:05.000 open the way the Byzantine intervention there then arise in Italy. The old king, 589 00:49:05.079 --> 00:49:07.440 Theodoric, who is a fantastic ruler, had died in five two six. 590 00:49:08.480 --> 00:49:12.719 There hadn't been an adult male heir to succeed him capable of stepping into 591 00:49:12.760 --> 00:49:16.880 Theodoric's war boots. Instead, you have a boy king Athalaric, who reigns 592 00:49:17.079 --> 00:49:21.280 under the care of his mother, a Mala Suntha, a marvelous woman, 593 00:49:21.280 --> 00:49:24.679 but she can't lead the army. And he then dies in five three four, 594 00:49:25.199 --> 00:49:29.880 just before he's old enough to start to be a militarily effective king. 595 00:49:30.039 --> 00:49:35.880 And we then have this struggle for power at the court in Italy ruled from 596 00:49:35.920 --> 00:49:40.400 the Venna between Amalasuntha and her cousin Theoda Had. Amalasuntha is assassinated and this 597 00:49:40.519 --> 00:49:45.800 now once again opens the way for Justinian's armies, led by Belisarius, who 598 00:49:45.800 --> 00:49:52.519 he's talent spotted when Belisarius was a fighting soldier, to intervene. So the 599 00:49:52.519 --> 00:49:58.599 circumstance in terms of the analysis of power are very similar. Belisarius leads his 600 00:49:58.719 --> 00:50:02.480 armies into Sicily. It's effectively an unopposed campaign. There's not much by way 601 00:50:02.519 --> 00:50:07.079 of Gothic garrison troops in Sicily. The Gothic army is concentrated to the north, 602 00:50:07.119 --> 00:50:13.840 where you would normally expect Italy to be attacked from. What then happens 603 00:50:14.199 --> 00:50:17.920 as Belisius crosses onto the mainland is that the Gothic high commands sort of goes 604 00:50:17.960 --> 00:50:22.320 into meltdown. The king theodor Had, who again has no military credentials, 605 00:50:22.480 --> 00:50:30.320 is assassinated. They have a new king, Vitigis Ritiguis, who is more 606 00:50:30.320 --> 00:50:36.280 militarily effective, but he has to face the problem that Belisius is advancing into 607 00:50:36.360 --> 00:50:40.039 Italy from the south. More Roman forces are also advancing on northern Italy, 608 00:50:40.400 --> 00:50:45.280 and the Romans have also mobilized their allies, the Franks, who are also 609 00:50:45.719 --> 00:50:50.679 now bearing down on northern Italy. So Vitigis has to choose between trying to 610 00:50:50.760 --> 00:50:57.199 hold out in Rome, on which Belisara's advancing, or pulling his men back 611 00:50:57.559 --> 00:51:01.400 to consolidate his control of the Ostro god big heartland, which is to be 612 00:51:01.400 --> 00:51:06.199 found in the land to the north of the River po around Wavenna, which 613 00:51:06.239 --> 00:51:09.199 is the political capital and the area from which the gods have always expected any 614 00:51:09.199 --> 00:51:13.559 attack to come from the world of the North. So really Belisaras is able 615 00:51:13.639 --> 00:51:19.119 to enter Rome essentially unopposed because Vitigis has taken the strategic decision to pull back 616 00:51:19.159 --> 00:51:23.599 to Levenna. Once again, the authority is playing on the vulnerability of Italy 617 00:51:23.679 --> 00:51:29.559 to attack from the north. He's then able. There's a lot of toing 618 00:51:29.599 --> 00:51:31.800 and throwing. We went at times going to hear, but then we end 619 00:51:31.840 --> 00:51:37.119 up in a situation where by about five three nine to five forty Vitigis and 620 00:51:37.199 --> 00:51:43.159 his regime is hold up in northern Italy, hold up in Ravenna. But 621 00:51:43.280 --> 00:51:47.199 Justinian is now minded to try to draw the Italian campaign to a close the 622 00:51:47.199 --> 00:51:52.880 Persians and mobilizing on the eastern frontier. He really wants Belisarius his services back 623 00:51:52.920 --> 00:52:01.519 there again, and Vitigis offers to essentially partition Italy with Justinian, with the 624 00:52:01.559 --> 00:52:07.239 Goths maintaining a rump state to the north of the Poe, keeping Ravenna acknowledging 625 00:52:07.039 --> 00:52:12.880 Justinian's overlordship, but Justinian having the rest, so Justinian can have Italy south 626 00:52:12.920 --> 00:52:16.119 of Italy can have Rome, he has Sicily, and Justinian seems minded, 627 00:52:16.239 --> 00:52:22.400 his ambassadors seem minded to accept this. The problem is that the ambassador's sense 628 00:52:22.480 --> 00:52:25.559 to do this deal. The problem they're faced with is that the Goths expect 629 00:52:25.599 --> 00:52:31.719 Belisarius to sign the peace treaty as well, and Belisarius prevaricates. He thinks 630 00:52:31.800 --> 00:52:37.320 Justinian can get more out of this situation. This is recorded by his secretary, 631 00:52:37.400 --> 00:52:40.159 the historian Procopius, who is with him during these campaigns and who's writing 632 00:52:40.280 --> 00:52:45.960 his account of it. So and an extraordinary episode then appears to ensue, 633 00:52:45.000 --> 00:52:52.039 whereby Belisarius doesn't sign the peace treaty, and the Gothic nobility and ultimately King 634 00:52:52.079 --> 00:52:58.000 Vitigus himself approach him and say, look, if you cast off Justinian and 635 00:52:58.079 --> 00:53:05.760 make yourself Western Roman emperor. We'll support you Justinian. So I'm Bensias gives 636 00:53:05.760 --> 00:53:07.480 them the impression he's going to go along with this. As a result, 637 00:53:07.519 --> 00:53:12.199 the doors of Anna the Gate Avenna are open to him and his armies and 638 00:53:12.239 --> 00:53:15.320 they are able to occupy the city. And before the Goths know what is 639 00:53:15.320 --> 00:53:17.679 happening, their king's been arrested, is on the ship to Constantinople, and 640 00:53:17.679 --> 00:53:23.320 they've had themselves over to Justinian. It's an extraordinary episode in military history. 641 00:53:24.960 --> 00:53:30.599 Yeah, it's it is. It is interesting because it is a series of 642 00:53:30.639 --> 00:53:36.159 events and what Justinian is really good at doing here and what this example shows, 643 00:53:36.840 --> 00:53:39.800 and also what you brought up previously of taking advantage of whenever the Persians 644 00:53:39.840 --> 00:53:45.000 are attacked by one of those step peoples, is he's excellent at recognizing when 645 00:53:45.039 --> 00:53:50.119 there is the opportunity, when there's the opportunity to intervene, and he doesn't 646 00:53:50.159 --> 00:53:53.360 pass those opportunities by. When there is the opportunity, he takes it, 647 00:53:53.519 --> 00:53:57.920 and he takes it consistently, and that is sort of the hallmark of a 648 00:53:57.960 --> 00:54:01.960 good emperor. But it's it's interesting, yeah, And he does the same 649 00:54:02.000 --> 00:54:06.360 in the five fifties in Spain as well. Again we get a succession dispute 650 00:54:06.400 --> 00:54:08.800 in the Visigothic kingdom in Spain, and now and behold, his army is 651 00:54:08.800 --> 00:54:13.440 suddenly turned up on the Spanish coastline, exactly the same circumstances, exactly an 652 00:54:13.440 --> 00:54:17.840 analysis of power of work his purposes. Yeah, but then, of course, 653 00:54:17.960 --> 00:54:22.559 you know, something happens in five point forty one that's going to sort 654 00:54:22.599 --> 00:54:28.880 of change Justinian's fortunes, and that is that from one of the plague folk 655 00:54:28.880 --> 00:54:34.000 guy that are natural in the world, bubonic plague irrupts and the plague of 656 00:54:34.199 --> 00:54:37.639 Justinian begins, and the plague of Justinian is obviously going to have has a 657 00:54:37.920 --> 00:54:44.880 dramatic effect the latter half of his reign. And so I was hoping, 658 00:54:45.039 --> 00:54:46.880 you know, before we get to our last question, I was hoping you 659 00:54:46.920 --> 00:54:53.519 could talk a little bit about the plague and how it if impacted his overall 660 00:54:53.639 --> 00:54:58.679 fortunes. And I often wonder, I think there's a historic what if here 661 00:54:58.760 --> 00:55:02.920 of what happens if the plague doesn't occur. You know what happens, and 662 00:55:02.960 --> 00:55:07.320 I know it's an impossible question. Is he able to accomplish more? I 663 00:55:07.320 --> 00:55:12.000 think obviously the question. The answer to that is probably yes, if the 664 00:55:12.000 --> 00:55:15.000 plague doesn't happen, or you know, would the last years have played out 665 00:55:15.039 --> 00:55:22.440 in the same sort of fashion. The arrival of bubonic plague, in the 666 00:55:22.480 --> 00:55:28.960 words of my old professor in Oxford sil Mango, was perhaps the most important 667 00:55:28.960 --> 00:55:32.800 event of the sixth century in the absence of modern medicine. Bubonic plague is 668 00:55:32.920 --> 00:55:37.920 one of the most devastating diseases known to mankind. And as you say in 669 00:55:37.960 --> 00:55:45.079 five four one, we have the first securely datable outbreak of this disease in 670 00:55:45.119 --> 00:55:50.360 the history of the Roman Mediterranean. Possibly visited North Africa a few centuries earlier, 671 00:55:50.360 --> 00:55:53.360 but this is the first truly trans regional pandemic of it. It reaches 672 00:55:53.400 --> 00:55:58.800 cons Dowtinople in five four to two, where we're told justin In himself contracts 673 00:55:58.800 --> 00:56:04.280 a disease, but miraculous he survives it soon is in Armenia, Italy. 674 00:56:04.639 --> 00:56:09.039 It even reaches where I am now, so half an hour from the cottage 675 00:56:09.039 --> 00:56:13.840 I'm sitting in as an Anglo Saxon burial site at a place called Edig's Hill, 676 00:56:14.119 --> 00:56:19.239 where a few years ago we found evidence for a mass mortality episode to 677 00:56:19.239 --> 00:56:22.920 do with the Justinianic plague there from again the mid sixth century, so it's 678 00:56:22.960 --> 00:56:29.599 even reaching rural parts of the Anglo Saxon world. Now I think that this 679 00:56:29.639 --> 00:56:36.639 will have this will cause mounting difficulties for Justinian over the years ahead. Initially 680 00:56:36.679 --> 00:56:42.360 we see him and his courtiers introducing a series of crisis driven measures aiming to 681 00:56:42.400 --> 00:56:46.119 sort of shore up the fiscal and legal foundations of the Roman state as mass 682 00:56:46.119 --> 00:56:52.480 mortality episodes lead to problems collecting text revenues, problems raising troops for the army, 683 00:56:53.480 --> 00:56:59.000 legal confusion as to who owns what has so many heirs are dying in 684 00:56:59.079 --> 00:57:02.440 quick succession. And those crisis driven measures I think are quite good at initially 685 00:57:02.480 --> 00:57:09.400 containing the first ramification to the plague during the first five years down to about 686 00:57:09.400 --> 00:57:15.840 five four seven. But then we start getting mounting evidence for just the cumulative 687 00:57:15.920 --> 00:57:22.360 waves of this disease having an ever more severe impact. As it takes all 688 00:57:22.679 --> 00:57:27.719 its toll on the rural population the urban population, you have fewer taxpayers. 689 00:57:27.840 --> 00:57:34.119 Fewer taxpayers means fewer less revenue with which to pay the army. The hard 690 00:57:34.199 --> 00:57:37.000 it is to pay the army, the hardred is to fight wars to both 691 00:57:37.000 --> 00:57:39.639 east and west and the problem for Justinian is from the early five forties you 692 00:57:39.679 --> 00:57:45.960 have now simultaneous warfare in the West and against the Persians, and an increasingly 693 00:57:45.000 --> 00:57:50.679 problematic situation in Africa as well due to bare bear pressure and military mutilely as 694 00:57:50.880 --> 00:57:53.840 military pays and the forthcoming. So I think in many ways I said, 695 00:57:53.840 --> 00:58:01.000 it's going to increasingly constrain the Emperor's opportunities in terms of military strategy, internal 696 00:58:01.039 --> 00:58:07.199 domestic reform. But I think above all, I don't for me, but 697 00:58:07.239 --> 00:58:14.400 what I see the justin aetic plague doing primarily is exacerbating internal weaknesses and tensions 698 00:58:14.599 --> 00:58:19.159 that had long bedeviled the Empire long before the advent of the plague. During 699 00:58:19.840 --> 00:58:24.480 his extraordinary legislation of five thirties, Justinian is complaining about the difficulty in raising 700 00:58:24.599 --> 00:58:29.320 enough tax revenues. He overhauls the structures of the Roman state to try to 701 00:58:29.400 --> 00:58:36.400 pump as much fiscality out of the Empire as possible. So tax raising is 702 00:58:36.400 --> 00:58:39.960 already a problem. He's already complaining that the costs of warfare make it necessary 703 00:58:40.079 --> 00:58:46.119 to really improve the tax collecting mechanisms of empire. The plague now raises those 704 00:58:46.119 --> 00:58:50.599 fiscal problems to a new order of reality. And I think that's true of 705 00:58:50.639 --> 00:58:54.480 some of the political problems as well well. And listeners are of course very 706 00:58:54.519 --> 00:58:59.159 aware that you know, we just recently went through a pandemic of our own, 707 00:58:59.480 --> 00:59:05.159 and those of existential crises tend to simply reveal existing cracks and exacerbate them. 708 00:59:05.159 --> 00:59:07.239 And I think I agree with you that to a large extent, that's 709 00:59:07.280 --> 00:59:10.079 what this did. Of course, it creates new problems of its own, 710 00:59:10.119 --> 00:59:15.079 but any existing problem, it is just going to dump fertilizer on top of 711 00:59:15.800 --> 00:59:16.920 I want to ask, because we're coming up on time, but I want 712 00:59:16.960 --> 00:59:21.679 to ask the last question you pause it in the book. I mean, 713 00:59:21.679 --> 00:59:28.000 I might not get the quotation exactly correct, but did Justinian ruin the empire 714 00:59:28.079 --> 00:59:32.039 that he set out to restore? And that I think is a fascinating question 715 00:59:32.199 --> 00:59:37.840 that reasonable people can discuss and maybe even come to different conclusions on. But 716 00:59:38.000 --> 00:59:45.960 I want to ask, in your opinion, did he no? I think 717 00:59:45.000 --> 00:59:49.960 in short, it's true that in the second half of his reign in particular, 718 00:59:50.519 --> 00:59:55.320 and in the centuries of the decades ahead under his successors, the Empire 719 00:59:55.360 --> 01:00:02.239 would find mount face mounting social the mounting difficulties in the second half of the 720 01:00:02.280 --> 01:00:07.000 sixth century, we have ongoing problems with raising taxes. We have growing fiscal 721 01:00:07.320 --> 01:00:13.239 instability that feed into growing political instability. Is later emperors have to try to 722 01:00:13.280 --> 01:00:16.639 cut back on expenditures, they try to restrain military pay and this will lead 723 01:00:16.679 --> 01:00:21.480 to military mutinies and civil war, which will then open the way of first 724 01:00:21.480 --> 01:00:28.480 Persian and then ultimately Arab conquests. So the Empire is clearly getting increasingly fragile 725 01:00:28.639 --> 01:00:32.199 and unstable after Justinian's reign. But I don't think we can causially connects that 726 01:00:32.280 --> 01:00:37.400 instability to his policy agenda. Really, I think the growing travails of the 727 01:00:37.400 --> 01:00:42.079 empire and the second half of the sixth century and in the early seventh are 728 01:00:42.119 --> 01:00:47.800 really due to a phenomena which are primarily outside of Justinian's control in any meaningful 729 01:00:47.880 --> 01:00:53.840 sense. The five point thirty is the period of major climate change then problematizes 730 01:00:53.960 --> 01:00:59.360 agriculture in a way that has economic consequences moving forward. We have the devastating 731 01:00:59.559 --> 01:01:04.159 outbreak the bubonic plague, which repeats itself and it's not a one hit wonder 732 01:01:04.199 --> 01:01:07.360 as it were. This is, you know, we have major outbreaks going 733 01:01:07.400 --> 01:01:10.920 through throughout the sixth and into the seventh centuries, it only peters out. 734 01:01:12.119 --> 01:01:16.679 In the eighth century, we have a renewed era of instability on Eurasian step 735 01:01:17.239 --> 01:01:22.239 that leads to the restward migration of a group known as the Avars. As 736 01:01:22.239 --> 01:01:25.320 a results of their migration, new Barbarian fed will emerge. The Lombards will 737 01:01:25.320 --> 01:01:30.800 migrate into Italy, undoing Justinian's reconquest there. Slavs will start infiltrating the Roman 738 01:01:30.800 --> 01:01:36.039 position in the Balkans, hollowing out Roman power there. And as I say, 739 01:01:36.119 --> 01:01:38.079 in the aftermath of the Roman Persian Wars, when two each of these 740 01:01:38.079 --> 01:01:43.960 empires are exhausted, the Arabs will arrive. But these are this unraveling of 741 01:01:43.960 --> 01:01:47.039 the empire that takes place in the early seventh century in particular, I think 742 01:01:47.039 --> 01:01:54.400 really is the result of cumulative problems resultant from these great external forces climate change, 743 01:01:54.880 --> 01:02:00.119 plague, migrations. The Justinian sitting in Constantinople, for all his claims 744 01:02:00.119 --> 01:02:08.119 to universal authority and autocratic omnipotence, could never really contain or contrast it. 745 01:02:09.880 --> 01:02:14.000 Yeah, I agree, you know, I don't think that. I think 746 01:02:14.079 --> 01:02:20.679 it's unfair for us to assume that Justinian has more capabilities than the leader of 747 01:02:20.719 --> 01:02:27.719 a modern nation state. A modern nation state struggles with pandemics, they struggle 748 01:02:27.760 --> 01:02:34.599 with climate change, they struggle with huge external forces to expect Justinian, as 749 01:02:34.599 --> 01:02:37.800 you say, and I think it's point correct to point it out again sitting 750 01:02:37.880 --> 01:02:40.639 in Constantinople. I mean, he may in the middle of the plague dispatch 751 01:02:40.719 --> 01:02:44.800 a letter to someone that by the time the letter has arrived is dead, 752 01:02:45.719 --> 01:02:49.000 and there isn't anything that he can do about that. You know, he 753 01:02:49.119 --> 01:02:54.760 is still dealing with the technological limitations of his age and trying to get things 754 01:02:54.760 --> 01:02:59.199 successful. You need to be highly skilled and you have to get a little 755 01:02:59.280 --> 01:03:05.239 lucky it. Justinian had good luck to a large extent at the beginning of 756 01:03:05.280 --> 01:03:08.360 his reign through the middle in the second half not as much, and none 757 01:03:08.400 --> 01:03:14.480 of that is necessarily his fault. But anyway, well, we didn't get 758 01:03:14.519 --> 01:03:17.199 to talk about a lot of the book, but that's because it's an excellent 759 01:03:17.239 --> 01:03:22.320 book. It's very detailed. I really recommend it. I hope that people 760 01:03:22.360 --> 01:03:25.880 pick it up. We didn't talk at all about theology, and there's a 761 01:03:25.960 --> 01:03:30.440 huge portion of the book that's about that, and I know that my listeners 762 01:03:30.480 --> 01:03:34.519 are going to be really interested in that. So the book is available right 763 01:03:34.559 --> 01:03:37.400 now if you're listening to this, and if you'd like to pick it up, 764 01:03:37.440 --> 01:03:40.079 you can click the link in the show notes and we'll go from there. 765 01:03:40.719 --> 01:03:44.719 But thank you so much for coming on. This was a wonderful conversation. 766 01:03:45.039 --> 01:04:00.639 Think it's suit you. S